Subject: [Hipsec] Mumbles about HIP (was Re: apps people?)

From: [email-masked] (Pekka Nikander)
Date: Tue Aug 12 14:56:03 2003

Fred,

Fred Templin wrote:
> ...  but do you truly have an alternate proposal that
> will work for intermittently-connected/disconnected sites, sites that
> frequently change provider points of attachment, multi-homed sites,
> etc? I asked others the same question and they mumbled something
> about HIP but ducked my pointed questions as to how soon we could
> expect to see an alternate proposal.

As far as I see, HIP does not currently provide anything for
intermittently-conneted/disconnnected sites.  Perhaps it could,
but AFAIK nobody has *seriously* considered that question.
(My gut feeling is that if HIP was adopted, the nature of this
and many other questions would change quite a lot.  But that
is just an educated guess, at best.)

>                                                            ....  So,
> unless there is some grand solution currently being architected in some
> skunkworks project out of the public eye ...   (And if there is such a stealth
> mode project in the works, I think it high time that it be fully disclosed
> to the community in good faith.)

I don't know about any skunkwork projects.  However, since HIP was
mentioned, perhaps I should try to clarify the situation.

There was a HIP mailing list for a long time @lists.freeswan.org.
However, due to hardware problems the list crashed three times during
the last year or so, losing its membership at least once, and the
archive at least once, too.  (I don't remember the details).

Anyway, there is now a new HIP mailing list @honor.trusecure.com,
see http://honor.trusecure.com/mailman/listinfo/hipsec
We tried to subscribe everybody we knew about to the new mailing
list, but I am sure some addresses just got lost.  If you
are interested, please join to the new mailing list.  It is currently
very low volume, but may get some traffic fairly soon (see below).
However, I don't expect it to get anywhere near IPNG volumes...

What comes to the architecture and base protocol specs, they are
fairly close to be ready for experimental.  On the other hand,
serious work on multi-homing, mobility, IPv4 NAT traversal and
DNS issues has only recently begun, and requires lots of work
before completed.

As I mentioned at the multi6 meeting in Vienna, there are currently
four interoperating implementations, at least two of which also
support limited HIP based mobility.  At least one even supports
mobility between IPv6 and IPv4.  I am not aware of any implementations
that would seriously support multi-homing, even though some support
for that is in draft-nikander-hip-mm-00.txt

There are also some discussions going on with some ADs about the
possibility of a working group that would produce experimental RFCs.
However, it is not clear whether such a group, if created, should be
a working group or an IRTF research group.  That is an issue that
should be discussed fairly soon at the hipsec ML.

--Pekka Nikander

---

From: [email-masked] (Fred Templin)
Date: Tue Aug 12 23:16:00 2003

Pekka Nikander wrote

> archive at least once, too.  (I don't remember the details). 

Yes, I'm subscribed to that list - since 7/16/2002, actually. There was
a pretty healthy amount of traffic between 3/14/03 - 3/26/03 and then
it went silent. Since then, I have received two messages - one on 6/29/03
and another on 8/10/03 (only two days ago) - both messages were from
you, actually. I never saw any announcement of the new list...

> list, but I am sure some addresses just got lost.  If you

I guess I must have been one of those who just got lost - but isn't it
strange I should still be seeing messages on the old list then?

> However, I don't expect it to get anywhere near IPNG volumes... 

Gee - maybe *this* is the skunkworks project I have been sensing?! :^}
Sure; I'll go ahead and subscribe myself to the new list.

Fred
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Pekka Nikander)
Date: Tue Aug 12 23:23:01 2003

Fred,

Fred Templin wrote:
> it went silent. 

I guess the list crashed at 3/26/03, short shortly thereafter.
Your address probably got lost already then, since it did have some
more traffic afterwards.  Then it crashed again sometime in July,
and AFAIK it has not been restored after that.

> Since then, I have received two messages - one on 6/29/03

Those must have been crossposted to some other list.
The 8/10/03 message I meant to crosspost to the new list
(not the old one), but my fingers made a mistake.  The other
list the message was crossposted to was multi6.

I don't remember about the 6/29/03 one.  (I've been spending
time with my family all the summer, and reading mail at odd
hours without enough of coffee.)

We announced the new list on the new list :-)  My intention is to
annouce it elsewhere, too, but that is just still in my pipeline.

--Pekka Nikander

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Wed Aug 13 10:34:00 2003

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    > There was a HIP mailing list for a long time @lists.freeswan.org.

  @lists.freeswan.org has been having trouble for a long time.
A combination of hardware issues, and mailman being able to recover, and
eating itself.

  We have moved all lists to another machine that is running majordomo2.

  If I should resurrect [email-masked], let me know.

]      Out and about in Ottawa.    hmmm... beer.                |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [