From nobody Fri Dec 7 07:58:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85739130E04 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:58:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSD_3P3wX6AO for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71A55130DFE for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id f18so4183647otl.11 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 07:57:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/R7k3q7Qxw75cWn4NSdtZJ3maQjIjCCcwd5opDEgbl4=; b=ISkuVUamvzfJU3FGQE+j6DuuwlCDV0izxteRMtyP9BDMMOLrX2PMdHrGqWD77w2aK1 iwg4QgtawTksyeDQsPcblxBiKE9l2Q1O1t0AaQhbxdAdjvvmiE1U7DworiJo44M3kni/ OxAL28VADZtRAu9njhpDY39Zwic8C0Wum6XFr5ie0jU0Yt9nwHOrRoAC70STjdHC4o5L ydJeRxMnmVnbuzLubcoF0M35pl6uIz/2Xd5sJHlLVKjlw2Og2gRhYWKXqKSqx7PjFC1B cTgAnDr208PQODnr5i65Ku3fHVXUb1QEKd/v7pT/uCyaIqDRHG21QOngX546PK9WjBT4 BBLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/R7k3q7Qxw75cWn4NSdtZJ3maQjIjCCcwd5opDEgbl4=; b=PpsDCZOkPcK6SAL4EAzbbgO1vDcbVyG9t0sdr0+uj7TVakz+EgYcZhx/p+kNmHzRew fQSDnxL1gnkH/f36ZdDOIYZWbd9YBRyBHrh1xG4v2Hu5gRbL0waBhDwQEI+xOepqgASY Hpd9ocjAOPpvLr/ta0DbXGslU4UbB7/354fB5ZmH26WTRcjUEf36Vou2MnFBe4znPugc +KTGgfON4nlHhPRs3YNn9P4diV515mmKkyy3Az742DZIOX99qB9mhzbL1m83SKYYQVrz SO1tzZBrNo7pwvmaWCHiMol6BFbCqQHjCD0YpN+5dRYwG/NlpCmKNG5kwC/mQDRedbMN Mt5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWagrEOtOI42kcg9Wh4qYcUWzKYOuQpCfjDfGxyWdnzu5QGrxt6Y iJromdd36nakDnzKcsJHUjd/z/x1RUE+YDBzRhCozbKr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/X62LuK2P4ijlErf4Yj/AP1sZsbDM9JWxG1fyWo2anIFn/LcR21jXn2hZJjxMw46dyBjP+m7hS9Y/OpRc0lW5Y= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:1e86:: with SMTP id n6mr1926374otn.9.1544198277561; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 07:57:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Martin Thomson Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:57:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 15:58:02 -0000 Hi, After the hugely productive discussion we had in Bangkok, we decided that we would entertain the notion of a new working group. Here's my proposed charter. I think that it is self-explanatory if you attended the meeting, but I'm happy to discuss details. Cheers, Martin ~~~ Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primarily [GitHub](https://github.com/), in managing their work. Individual working groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; and others. The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. The goal is to provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented practices. The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of GitHub use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be undertaken in consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested contributors. Milestones: Work practice description and policy document(s) sent to IESG - Aug 2019 From nobody Fri Dec 7 10:23:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D04130F8A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:23:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=B9TLIUrH; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=JwTKgKzV Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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bh=eBVCtIz3rm/9i4g2Gi77axWva8Ofp+O6mGXTB2Q+lOQ=; b=JwTKgKzV0X82LN4JVd1biks1ViGlg+4D5zAIs0w/LBu+zOOnaF+4HlIPsgJLGVnnSL/u5aYezkEZHNqAOgXbye8O0qIwSd+XtgL/cCuhEHCiYaEUc4VeP2aG9FHgLtHmetPQFfKqK0iodFyMGl2ooSoikk+HSoKxS+18Hb/bV9Y= Received: from AM6PR07MB5621.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.91.14) by AM6PR07MB5528.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.89.209) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1404.13; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:23:07 +0000 Received: from AM6PR07MB5621.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a5dd:4302:feec:e113]) by AM6PR07MB5621.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a5dd:4302:feec:e113%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1382.024; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:23:07 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: Martin Thomson , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter Thread-Index: AQHUjkWv8n4MHhWMMkO7BQG+MZgpuKVzuMcA Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:23:07 +0000 Message-ID: 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[Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:23:13 -0000 SGksDQoNCkkgIGRpZCBub3QgcGFydGljaXBhdGUgaW4gdGhlIEJhbmdrb2sgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMs IHNvIEkgYXBvbG9naXplIGlmIG15IHF1ZXN0aW9ucyB3ZXJlIGFscmVhZHkgcmFpc2VkIGFuZCBk aXNjdXNzZWQuDQoNClExOiBDb3VsZCB3ZSBvbmx5IHVzZSBHaXQgKGluc3RlYWQgb2YgR2l0SHVi KSBpbiB0aGUgV0cgbmFtZT8gVGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZXR0ZXIgYWxsb3cgdGhlIFdHIHRvIGNvdmVy IG90aGVyIHJlcG9zaXRvcmllcyBpbiB0aGUgZnV0dXJlLCBzaG91bGQgdGhlcmUgYmUgYSBuZWVk IGZvciB0aGF0Lg0KDQpRMjogUmVsYXRlZCB0byBRMSwgd2hpbGUgdGhlIGZvY3VzIChhdCBsZWFz dCBpbml0aWFsbHkpIGlzIG9uIEdpdEh1Yiwgc2hvdWxkIHRoZXJlIGFsc28gYmUgZ2VuZXJpYyB0 ZXh0IHNheWluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBzY29wZSBvZiB0aGUgV0cgaXMgR2l0IHJlcG9zaXRvcmllcy4g 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multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_05EA383D-AAD3-4CC3-8162-406C899F324E_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:26:06 -0000 --=_MailMate_05EA383D-AAD3-4CC3-8162-406C899F324E_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Martin- Thanks for drafting some text. I have a couple of thoughts / questions. * It’s unclear from the text whether the results of the group will be rules or recommendations. My preference would be recommendations but I think the charter should be clear regardless. * I think the charter & working group should be clear the recommendations will be consistent with RFC2026/BCP9, which has addresses things like wg record keeping. * I’m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don’t understand what happens after the IESG receives the “work practice description and policy document(s)”. Must they be approved the IESG? What is the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or wants changes? Will there be some public artifact of the output? --aaron On 7 Dec 2018, at 10:57, Martin Thomson wrote: > Hi, > > After the hugely productive discussion we had in Bangkok, we decided > that we would entertain the notion of a new working group. Here's my > proposed charter. I think that it is self-explanatory if you attended > the meeting, but I'm happy to discuss details. > > Cheers, > Martin > > ~~~ > Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, > primarily > [GitHub](https://github.com/), in managing their work. Individual > working > groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working > group > activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they > use these > services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: > managing > discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and > pull > requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and > naming > conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and > automation; > and others. > > The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a > set of such > practices and document policies that support those practices. The > policies will > each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow > the work > practice. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support > their work > will remain entirely at their discretion. The goal is to provide both > process > and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the > documented > practices. > > The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of > GitHub > use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be > undertaken in > consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested > contributors. > > Milestones: > > Work practice description and policy document(s) sent to IESG - Aug > 2019 > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --=_MailMate_05EA383D-AAD3-4CC3-8162-406C899F324E_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Martin-

Thanks for drafting some text. I have a couple of though= ts / questions.

  • It=E2=80=99s unclear from the text whether the results of the group w= ill be rules or recommendations. My preference would be recommendations = but I think the charter should be clear regardless.
  • I think the charter & working group should be clear the recommend= ations will be consistent with RFC2026/BCP9, which has addresses things l= ike wg record keeping.
  • I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don=E2=80=99t= understand what happens after the IESG receives the =E2=80=9Cwork practi= ce description and policy document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must they be approved th= e IESG? What is the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or wants change= s? Will there be some public artifact of the output?

--aaron

On 7 Dec 2018, at 10:57, Martin Thomson wrote:

H= i,

After the hugely productive discussion we had in Bangkok, we decided
that we would entertain the notion of a new working group. Here's my
= proposed charter. I think that it is self-explanatory if you attended the meeting, but I'm happy to discuss details.

Cheers,
Martin

~~~
Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primarily=
[GitHub](https://git= hub.com/), in managing their work. Individual working
groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working gr= oup
activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they us= e these
services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull=
requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and na= ming
conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and auto= mation;
and others.

The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set = of such
practices and document policies that support those practices. The polici= es will
each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow th= e work
practice. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support their w= ork
will remain entirely at their discretion. The goal is to provide both pr= ocess
and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the documente= d
practices.

The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of Git= Hub
use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be undertak= en in
consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested contributors.<= br>
Milestones:

Work practice description and policy document(s) sent to IESG - Aug 2019<= br>
_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github

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with ESMTP id t75i1Jv38npl for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x232.google.com (mail-oi1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54203130E68 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x232.google.com with SMTP id h25so4596031oig.1 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 13:48:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=br4jYZ2O5UUbUJ8RjMsq7/Qb+dMvp2v8lx/MTXCgOf0=; b=JEwWW/SBGe12pw+lN5bFH2sx6f+Fr+no6xEUPmu57tD8qNITzpOodgvx/POs5jvdW9 VElJ9QjP6wP9usuQGD1hp3eLx6T/5oal59DaR1oZ4YlkT16LwKBQ5Qe9oXxm7za3lbPX XwjCxby84CSSsJpFhcFfodE5GMbmxqd6fiLBSSBm4zvqMURU8AllMFzVw6Q9befmErRN a0f/fSVbG2qxaufXwnqrY+U637C3Ek9KyzwqoIVKSG3HoKOuje7A1Ta4kCYMsjjivj2Q 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-0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> From: Martin Thomson Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:47:58 -0500 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 21:48:14 -0000 Hi Christer, On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 1:23 PM Christer Holmberg wrote: > Q1: Could we only use Git (instead of GitHub) in the WG name? That would better allow the WG to cover other repositories in the future, should there be a need for that. I said this in the meeting, but I'll repeat it for your benefit and the benefit of others: I don't believe that we get the same benefit from using just git. The primary advantage we gain from using GitHub is access to the community of people who are already there. This doesn't mean that individuals and WGs can't choose to use other tools, but we have realized that GitHub is an option that is very widely used and we want to optimize for the common case first. The same goes for groups that choose to roll their own processes. That will remain a choice, but we will not necessarily provide additional support for those processes. (I happen to think that there is value in homogenous process and practice as long as it preserves the diversity of input we rely on. A homogenous process can be hugely powerful. But I am fully aware that this sometimes leads to easier suppression of views. In a way, our reliance on email and mailing lists has that effect. It's just something we're acclimatized to.) From nobody Fri Dec 7 14:01:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F107C130E68 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:01:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bA-AdHhDvvDV for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F88C126C01 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id y1so2820065oie.12 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:01:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+7RwBdeS3I8PbCXj3MPt+MRRLLq302dlpBgyN3tWLjo=; b=bFW3lhlMyjXgynDVGUoNrc8uG0Ghjx2owbp129E3UJkccbCUP+lTIN6LdOqKH2Xt4K 9hw5wQ3zBNQpeUhupGHwcLs7UAghgxHZmZ0NLU32wUlVpSAwkY0t/QcyHWwn4J9PsZ8u FNHESYdY0fLcqVni5u8lsNsgf5s+yw5lY4AWJeeU9Fkce9I81kueoutD6LEsLEz0571V EdPmuCLn+IC2aIsL0HJQVxKlRXfiItm8lpAUHdF4dZY4yhTRiAzDngrcP4e1Ogm/sU+j CnG1IwtsKID14SRY6wQ8ZScxclC3iPhuszXycklEECDUMxscfy8lN0ZaliGFjaaAW5FM N7hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+7RwBdeS3I8PbCXj3MPt+MRRLLq302dlpBgyN3tWLjo=; b=hwYYLr1kfbzc+lKmlpXgeXhcreK98TYyNJH1ehH885EF1t+7Cc4ILHaKeKjfLllWGp /hLXanFN0Jomg3hLnikHQm+DgcUCbD8H1UXzN9kOYILh8ywHk+PWbldon4XMK70sJx7F vINgsN0Z/AS4jp8LDOQ7BpAOVqQBtk9hoifOQXceq8giF+d2Zi9mpZm+ClfqP3jAMOG0 8NMRMMU39Sw6A2z9kDq8q9QbcqW3Y7XdTRsl5TNM6WCC+iazA3b8Otph2uNWfP5vih6p M6Ke/0w2zwV64dmsmswWpyfzz7JFHhWxyxuoJ1o+FlMdeBT2jaRm6PuYkyZOoJreFQ2V 0Fvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbLxU7idtudZ2wOUNvnQyehG9EA9rExO6Ka+K081bGo9e+mwHtc 7vsou8ES3czyPJugz7l7Ew6I5TadOQ4GdtQC8rk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VjEfYmbhf4OX2hBYhA/wvrVLUSks+JO3VoaLatj7eNcrrOdRPRuKYD17BMlv7Tbwmk9BAOVyqZF10IHXlBrsE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4ace:: with SMTP id x197mr2372834oia.129.1544220063347; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:01:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Thomson Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:00:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: Aaron Falk Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 22:01:06 -0000 So, before I respond, I realize that I failed here. This is now up on GitHub: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter Inline responses... On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 1:25 PM Aaron Falk wrote: > It=E2=80=99s unclear from the text whether the results of the group will = be rules or recommendations. My preference would be recommendations but I t= hink the charter should be clear regardless. I don't know how this is unclear. The charter says "working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice." I read that as saying that will be rules, but only if a working group agrees to use those rules. > I think the charter & working group should be clear the recommendations w= ill be consistent with RFC2026/BCP9, which has addresses things like wg rec= ord keeping. The intent with the "while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity" was to cover that. Would a reference to 2026 there be sufficient? > I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don=E2=80=99t und= erstand what happens after the IESG receives the =E2=80=9Cwork practice des= cription and policy document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must they be approved the IESG? W= hat is the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or wants changes? Will ther= e be some public artifact of the output? This would be a working group as normal, where the output of the group is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though. From nobody Fri Dec 7 14:17:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81254128DFD for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:17:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32UUM4KELgis for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10C56126C01 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id d19so6234008qtq.9 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:17:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7IEYe2MN+0OoZwUlivv/e7QP79LBetCwoA6UD0Jys78=; b=fMUFvgHEJquSMuTg0Cs+x1s5EHYqSjP8yUs6K7RgLXQ+aG2oBJ4gTs0WcF+C/S2GKh TOSDYSktt5D+DbnAECFw0xX1uMB2+wBOafUb5edl42cEZBeyxjmZXI0QxFhkiboreIq3 3IXopj9CxaAtruitEXqUyKR7RfOTw9muWW++oGwfTkzEdcA92qCReqMPch0xybX3LM3g 1wqYMQylsog59SwR8sYernPrDgb4w67WwI+qIyD+Ti5jR/QRDCQ2Zt2dLN4+PbT05fl9 ZjvJKTjfM+YMHAignprsQldHrTbRft3u5FkwnhSFbM926/i+hQ02eayCqjw+6eCIRzll 8wzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7IEYe2MN+0OoZwUlivv/e7QP79LBetCwoA6UD0Jys78=; b=E0tZUamYlK8pUcoj6oMeI8Wlt7Id1Gz6IvKt6GxiHgtVgfPL1ULJDmO5iKI2Z0f1ti zi2VvaG1E8h05HYBpNDiFsK4M9MCi/N6FNHxsYD86hW6AdgNzkI/rdSssRqFvgUb+Z65 FEPlWqfTuE96kwGyigfdUgXXv5/uaMDgf5oTKK14uVQRsyFLcv17/pm7u4Ki0s3uQpJ4 vGX+BDgf2AtHrJQFs9MPpIGJa+j64Zg64iWJS7JI6b0rNTJfDJE0ihXmKMg8t67qrfaz cQM9fUXhR9Fe9f8ombqU176NgMqCDfvV+mPKqEW6btQ6mGg2Nb/6ZdBYekkR7ZKeISRd sbew== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWamiF6Uq2Zp45N2v/ojYEkYOQMv2KijPpFC05g3UmmOrFETKPRF Y6r65l4ypCBMapIP63GCkluXsApvrk4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XbiaVFEsfLKeUvsaWKifVVsa9VrQrzzvYc5N1XZIQtx0nk3apJqAW7VCJ56z1A8mVwc6Omaw== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9418:: with SMTP id h24mr3748102qvh.216.1544221026780; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.37.57] ([2001:4878:a000:3000:5dda:f552:723b:3a99]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 21sm4385496qkr.89.2018.12.07.14.17.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "Martin Thomson" Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:17:04 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.2r5568) Message-ID: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_4BB5DF6C-9B83-4E79-9E42-7F11292020D3_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 22:17:11 -0000 --=_MailMate_4BB5DF6C-9B83-4E79-9E42-7F11292020D3_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the quick reply, Martin. On 7 Dec 2018, at 17:00, Martin Thomson wrote: > So, before I respond, I realize that I failed here. > > This is now up on GitHub: > https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter > > Inline responses... > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 1:25 PM Aaron Falk > wrote: >> It’s unclear from the text whether the results of the group will be >> rules or recommendations. My preference would be recommendations but >> I think the charter should be clear regardless. > > I don't know how this is unclear. The charter says "working group > will select a set of such practices and document policies that support > those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted > by working groups that opt to follow the work practice." I read that > as saying that will be rules, but only if a working group agrees to > use those rules. Sorry, let me make my question more explicit: is it the intention that working groups will be able to use GitHub and deviate from the policies? We have a lot of process BCPs that don’t permit that. > >> I think the charter & working group should be clear the >> recommendations will be consistent with RFC2026/BCP9, which has >> addresses things like wg record keeping. > > The intent with the "while continuing to operate within IETF > guidelines for working group activity" was to cover that. Would a > reference to 2026 there be sufficient? I think so. Maybe BCP9 as it would avoid hairsplitting about updates to that doc. Also, I received a couple of private emails making me think it might be a good idea to call out that the group should address IPR and Note Well concerns. > >> I’m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don’t understand >> what happens after the IESG receives the “work practice description >> and policy document(s)”. Must they be approved the IESG? What is >> the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or wants changes? Will there >> be some public artifact of the output? > > This would be a working group as normal, where the output of the group > is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and > community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I > don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though. Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion about the charter of the working group should take a stand on and be explicit about what the actual output should be. I agree that consensus documents like BCP RFCs would be appropriate. --aaron --=_MailMate_4BB5DF6C-9B83-4E79-9E42-7F11292020D3_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= p dir=3D"auto">Thanks for the quick reply, Martin.

On 7 Dec 2018, at 17:00, Martin Thomson wrote:

So, before I respond, I realize tha= t I failed here.

This is now up on GitHub: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf= -git-charter

Inline responses...

On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 1:25 PM Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com> wr= ote:

It=E2=80=99= s unclear from the text whether the results of the group will be rules or= recommendations. My preference would be recommendations but I think the = charter should be clear regardless.

I don't know how this is unclear. The chart= er says "working group
will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted
= by working groups that opt to follow the work practice." I read that
= as saying that will be rules, but only if a working group agrees to
use those rules.

Sorry, let me make my question more explicit= : is it the intention that working groups will be able to use GitHub and = deviate from the policies? We have a lot of process BCPs that don=E2=80=99= t permit that.

I think the charter & working group should be clear the re= commendations will be consistent with RFC2026/BCP9, which has addresses t= hings like wg record keeping.

The intent with the "while continuing to ope= rate within IETF
guidelines for working group activity" was to cover that. Would a
reference to 2026 there be sufficient?

I think so. Maybe BCP9 as it would avoid ha= irsplitting about updates to that doc. Also, I received a couple of priv= ate emails making me think it might be a good idea to call out that the g= roup should address IPR and Note Well concerns.

I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don=E2= =80=99t understand what happens after the IESG receives the =E2=80=9Cwork= practice description and policy document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must they be appro= ved the IESG? What is the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or wants c= hanges? Will there be some public artifact of the output?

This would be a working group as normal, whe= re the output of the group
is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and
community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I
don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though.

Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion= about the charter of the working group should take a stand on and be exp= licit about what the actual output should be. I agree that consensus doc= uments like BCP RFCs would be appropriate.

--aaron

--=_MailMate_4BB5DF6C-9B83-4E79-9E42-7F11292020D3_=-- From nobody Fri Dec 7 14:20:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8423B128DFD for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:20:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iA8w2uLxv1Y9 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0FA5126C01 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id u18so2423879plq.7 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4SJS/u7HxtHwoKn5It3NSdd+VdgndU41D069NZQlQPQ=; b=ttyMVKGDizfH9C4cMU3YIMx6wC8QkVF6JpmQxvwrsYV51u+u6N819qLsRxG0jn/TpX W+oUhp+3e9X72fXXDvDXaccX3KPo03C3jb/gYwLK5ofHrg77icIUzGw+YCd/tnkuxYTi K8gfBWzidRbHEXtK4+Tg3Y6MOtVVWwe8f1uOniAfdwOuXyRF4uK+hZfLj2jBbX9Tudma 1sothMKMBTtGsCGlHZDGVGH+Jg3HBg7XU0xnrpYCD90QvrPkUIt3INRqpstiyajBhCKH vg6OZiwFsRRX0qDwu8jrwn53bnxg0UZvgMQUwBjAzGmklyIK0GuOhOwmNA+v5Cmh9QH/ KOVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4SJS/u7HxtHwoKn5It3NSdd+VdgndU41D069NZQlQPQ=; b=HAyinuOSF1oN7ncn+TBCAP/Dr4kQiwfS5aDxSw5vIkwazpk9p0yALSGLDYS/HGM2k2 UGS9MgiXqipjRsy8ufrbrzx9dOdxh+d4U6lyzVPHg+cwd8IaN64CGbRP1cuNgpLDmX4/ wjPFX/vdlMT56GsKecTs/54Hdf+/3fD2w852Nqrpt4YsKKlz8QHqaygFTm9WyptwzcOb bmQ5LwfNXgdIiNTUXbxUdvacT8n99fYlkjmwUBYT045Hu4yBYiNt/iNyEpJbLMXB4E2z U/xXSnUT+0Ks1j2x7mj7RyAOlrkMqZC+imU13UEXiSn4hzGkcA+xM4N5HhjFyDJ65cJT WO0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbvqto2niR5qTDSScBd9G21kJigeLLc8Il/MoU1/ORlVcTaWpHS kjuHUM0j/4io6oVAtdABljqQ1qrCFXE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/V40rOCP3SymB51swLo3eWtK7PzwEbYbIwMrWTvmBqeAAWBs0iSIOWmD1q2TlIRFrCaXdvlJA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d891:: with SMTP id b17mr3883263plz.80.1544221227075; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h19sm5168542pfn.114.2018.12.07.14.20.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:20:26 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Thomson , Aaron Falk Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5d465640-a25b-af97-483e-9cca54c8bb5b@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 11:20:21 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 22:20:30 -0000 On 2018-12-08 11:00, Martin Thomson wrote: ... > The intent with the "while continuing to operate within IETF > guidelines for working group activity" was to cover that. Would a > reference to 2026 there be sufficient? I'd make it BCP 9 to pull in all the updates without extra verbiage in the charter. And IMHO you also need BCP 79 to pull in the IPR rules, and BCP 25 (= RFC2418 + RFC3934 + RFC7776) as the main reference for WG operations. For example, that pulls in the anti-harassment rules. Brian From nobody Fri Dec 7 18:12:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F7E131051 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:12:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M2_L8jD-S0VW for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:12:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DAF6124BE5 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:12:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id t204so4931132oie.7 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:12:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=w4c1OiiXSaNsoMWKnVeJIDvL+ZmwGfMbGFlkuoJn3Lc=; b=NaTGxEhQ7S0PzK+6MRq6/EQ7mYD9EiakJ0XgWZkQjDCgp/KYO7nfzlNNdgl2tJOKik 2rWUonoYWXZMz7MLEpjDZ/We2z8OiZg2KiYgCqL6YW36PH5K8juBoPmSX/Rw36XGNvCc oSNJK52GP1o0lnKpw6kwzqVh53N5MDIfgVpOSGop9rq5iqg7tWHfAC19ZcisFrS5hDm2 X9dHA/uklA6rhi56rx8oNUNcHW19f5JXiidTLNNJM7iCS8fCyM62psp9QuL/1ZQcess3 SBQo8PH51wMIp964e0hUXy9UFB3z4ryJ6rcdLDHA2VvJqHT94NtNr6vhn+RDNs3hCOk0 I6zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=w4c1OiiXSaNsoMWKnVeJIDvL+ZmwGfMbGFlkuoJn3Lc=; b=f1SAcZltui2osGR0KnNYSu0JCJRJTfwpzaG8qb+66Ghu55RTjDVA+hB30YbBJrQw9p e6w2NQnA28wn2SsZRdwuZSBQGnyki+T5Zlf38hslx8piWdTGO90izepM6xnymczT6ljI 0Zi2m0yWuNv7XRNfKREIFKjW8/ZlpdzUDqoVx2gS9EItOCxXQpXLS+51KegKslRHB4kf PmfNfAfMsl6WHCuqcPNEUOVjPxBEEZvniSKKTAzRg3mA8zXGIedSE/N2fVR/oKTPwZcZ bzRGk5ty3tHJvQdubX7uSkR/IvmKhbst/BLnb1zNQ+doNiz0KgfAivyG4s6hxFHCEBAX cKDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaMAtMWQR4rwCULfqkRiKskYwH2abK4HvlINeJ/HVTeOv/ETINB +xCbIRuM7qx1AlRwBFGSxIo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VwUM8l2toZ4rzXDflrokmQu/LK8a2rpZySDAo6Yj38BJFpFAPrCTKBPkDDymthqWIr+pYEug== X-Received: by 2002:aca:490c:: with SMTP id w12mr2731726oia.8.1544235120423; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1004? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1004]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l204sm2640996oia.54.2018.12.07.18.11.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:11:58 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <25D623CA-24FD-4794-BD8B-A76EF42E0FC7@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1E4C7CE1-0C9F-4471-989E-AA698D0B181B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 18:11:57 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 02:12:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1E4C7CE1-0C9F-4471-989E-AA698D0B181B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +1 to Christer's comments. I would add one; it seems like there was = interest in the discussion about adding an IETF-operated git repository = that was IPv6-capable. The argument against that in the meeting was that = GitHub is commonly used, which seems to me a weak argument at best. If = that were added in the charter, we would be in a position to discuss it = and perhaps add it to the IETF tools. > On Dec 7, 2018, at 7:57 AM, Martin Thomson = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > After the hugely productive discussion we had in Bangkok, we decided > that we would entertain the notion of a new working group. Here's my > proposed charter. I think that it is self-explanatory if you attended > the meeting, but I'm happy to discuss details. >=20 > Cheers, > Martin >=20 > ~~~ > Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, = primarily > [GitHub](https://github.com/), in managing their work. Individual = working > groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working = group > activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they = use these > services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: = managing > discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and = pull > requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and = naming > conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and = automation; > and others. >=20 > The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a = set of such > practices and document policies that support those practices. The = policies will > each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow = the work > practice. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support = their work > will remain entirely at their discretion. The goal is to provide both = process > and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the = documented > practices. >=20 > The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of = GitHub > use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be = undertaken in > consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested = contributors. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > Work practice description and policy document(s) sent to IESG - Aug = 2019 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an = interesting comment on projected traffic volume... --Apple-Mail=_1E4C7CE1-0C9F-4471-989E-AA698D0B181B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlwLKG0ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+B2iA/9Gle0AygYnFZHCxYk02/6Gt+th3q9R6q+YPtc6lOZUuxVuEeNiCEWxC/l ymKE4uXIxxAm/xowYnscjLI3ps6E1xGOVa+5ShryLLjidM41O5motRd9PsWrM8PP yhU3gdS/rUae/E4cUBaHD60s8qGS6j3i4mRlFptcSeF8yvlVnCTMiwIOV+1UTk2o Z79sEy3WQsVMKXd5gLe41El5LK/sdQFehN6OZtEeQ1oythKp3/0349LNT1wUaA8X dgHpDboUqwejF7Sk6jFGRYp7vuIxhitjr86CB01BFgZtGqtYgju/ul2oXlg/9L9s 7F97GuTIK+KgnZMuwpgcFIRIlXrFfmXityLVakq0U38Rv+fbz3dcVoOE/Q96tgn4 Zi7XvDo27HPGrVUXnfTetOIRpri8ZiCgE69RWnsZMfhDanN4he+xL/x6KNyRH1Um rntUNpg+5jd5mLLxzrwomQj6CH7PKUns0KHvQ9tJDpDsCyjRIR9YCObgo584+KoH 5WcU0iR7y+zcIef7mZpmcBpVcdG8nhfEqp0na9kCyxKzUnymR60EVora0xYRab2J D63qZB/Q9mQSVQmqIJG8TOVOF6IdUdyBasUiyLNSOuAWPoIhjZXcMVo3tBuftb4V pHZoVniDApRWvE+dvkzX5WoqZvSztmDx1Mw4meJrRSULIXEXJyQ= =XzpU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1E4C7CE1-0C9F-4471-989E-AA698D0B181B-- From nobody Sat Dec 8 13:05:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EB6130EB9 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2018 13:05:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3KGd9DQKmST0 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2018 13:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CAFD130EB8 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2018 13:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Sat, 8 Dec 2018 13:59:33 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman To: Christer Holmberg CC: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ext] [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter Thread-Index: AQHUjlntM9EVWeoHq0yMR9DwkVyv4KV17AEA Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:59:32 +0000 Message-ID: <13BAFC59-CEFD-4622-BCBB-BF60D9D37614@icann.org> References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_496DF58A-AF15-4362-8459-8D3A8C87A636"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 21:59:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_496DF58A-AF15-4362-8459-8D3A8C87A636 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Dec 7, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: > Q1: Could we only use Git (instead of GitHub) in the WG name? That = would better allow the WG to cover other repositories in the future, = should there be a need for that. Even if the WG name says "GitHub", the WG could later discuss GitLab and = friends, or even "git without pull requests or issue trackers". So far, = the vast majority of the interest has be in GitHub, but that doesn't = mean it will always be this way. > Q2: Related to Q1, while the focus (at least initially) is on GitHub, = should there also be generic text saying that the scope of the WG is Git = repositories. That would allow to cover other Git services in the = future, while making clear that non-Git services are outside the scope = of the WG. This is better to me than making the WG seem to be generically about Git = in the name. > Q3: The text says that WGs are free to choose whether they use GitHub = in their work, but there is no text about whether WGs that use GitHub = have to follow the procedures defined by the GIT WG. No, I see no reason = why a WG should not follow the guidelines, but this is IETF after all... = :) Exactly. --Paul Hoffman= --Apple-Mail=_496DF58A-AF15-4362-8459-8D3A8C87A636 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIL9DCCBZ4w ggSGoAMCAQICEAbzeOJeWp48+t/BRQQfhmcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwZTELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FTATBgNVBAoTDERpZ2lDZXJ0IEluYzEZMBcGA1UECxMQd3d3LmRpZ2ljZXJ0LmNvbTEkMCIGA1UE AxMbRGlnaUNlcnQgU0hBMiBBc3N1cmVkIElEIENBMB4XDTE4MDYxMzAwMDAwMFoXDTIxMDYxMzEy MDAwMFowgb0xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRMwEQYDVQQIEwpDYWxpZm9ybmlhMRQwEgYDVQQHEwtMb3Mg QW5nZWxlczE8MDoGA1UEChMzSW50ZXJuZXQgQ29ycG9yYXRpb24gZm9yIEFzc2lnbmVkIE5hbWVz IGFuZCBOdW1iZXJzMR4wHAYDVQQDExVQYXVsIEhvZmZtYW4gMjAxODA2MTMxJTAjBgkqhkiG9w0B CQEWFnBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkBpY2Fubi5vcmcwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIB 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08:36:25 +1100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Martin Thomson , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> To: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 21:36:37 -0000 > On 9 Dec 2018, at 11:30 pm, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 >=20 >>> The primary advantage we gain from using GitHub is access to the = community of people who are already there. >>=20 >> Strongly agree. >=20 > If we talk about IETF contributors, that's a valid point - it's easier = for people to adopt a tool they are familiar with.=20 >=20 > But, if we talk about people in general, I doubt the usage of GitHub = alone is going to bring new people to IETF: people will join IETF if = they are interested in what we produce - not the tools we are using. = Otherwise one could claim we should start writing of drafts and RFCs = using MS Word, because of the big community out there... __ That argument ignores the people who are interested in our work, but = don't know how to engage or don't want to, because of the tools and = processes we use are unfamiliar and clunky to them.=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Dec 9 22:19:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F70130EA2 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2018 22:19:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com 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[216.67.35.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a73sm16304967pfa.7.2018.12.09.22.19.07 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Dec 2018 22:19:08 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <2b862142-81ff-a126-6157-896f8b5af922@nomountain.net> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 21:19:06 -0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:19:12 -0000 On 12/9/18 12:36 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > That argument ignores the people who are interested in our work, but > don't know how to engage or don't want to, because of the tools and > processes we use are unfamiliar and clunky to them. I'm ambivalent about several aspects of this work. I think there's a lot of value in creating documents describing best practices around tools that are in common use around the IETF and which may conflict to varying degrees with how we describe our processes (moving from a mailing list-focused process to one in which the work is driven by activity in repos, primarily). To get to Mark's point, it's not at all clear to me that people who find our current processes and tooling opaque and who'd be comfortable with Github wouldn't be equally at home with other repositories, particularly others based on Git. I think a lot of us work primarily at the command line rather than through the web interface. Also, I'm just not in love with creating IETF tools and processes that are resident on other people's gear. Leaving open the possibility that at some point in the future this could all be moved to an IETF-owned Git service would go some distance towards improving my comfort level with that. But even then, if you've been writing software for any period of time you've probably run through different revision control systems and I expect that Git/Github will fall out of favor within some number of years, as well, and there's value in staying flexible. I'm also concerned that this work may lead to working groups feeling pressured to do their work on Github even though they'd rather not. In summary, 1) love the idea of producing BCPs addressing the question of how to use Git/Github effectively in IETF working groups, 2) don't love the idea of any of this becoming normative, 3) really don't like the idea of it becoming narrowly focused on one service that doesn't belong to the IETF (or ISOC or various associated I- bodies). Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Mon Dec 10 00:03:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B4E130EB0 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 00:03:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=dRkANTJo; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=j2MtD7ly Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTSrOL1XEaxI for ; 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Mon, 10 Dec 2018 01:06:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1544432807; bh=o1z4EOvrw/Tm2bEvpigx7JKcdk7C8r4ZtV3dFGU7nhI=; h=Subject:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=kMIBw5zbYCGX92Y8D9Dn1Taw6/VNivZlSq3Cvw8ZYRfeM3Fqq08numum52LBOnLKB aAmAU8n+Y+f//mgi0Ef6WWqxYVQcyxDHZiRC66D+0IQyR95ixUqyNlPX1y6rlYdtKR LOrHjGDDNteebUYtYF3+qA3CXh818a2KnMzxVZUc= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [81.145.230.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43Cxyt04pWzFps5; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 01:06:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" , Martin Thomson References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:06:44 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:06:52 -0000 I have no objection to looking at new tooling that may make our work proceed better. But deciding that we should use a particular tooling because a particular group of external people are comfortable with it and may join our work if we use it seems wrong. There are many different external groups we would like to engage more. They use many different tools. So looking at how we can use git / github is reasonable. Saying "we have to use github, not just git, because one group of people is more comfortable with that" seems wrong. Yours, Joel On 12/9/18 9:36 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 9 Dec 2018, at 11:30 pm, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> >> >>>> The primary advantage we gain from using GitHub is access to the community of people who are already there. >>> >>> Strongly agree. >> >> If we talk about IETF contributors, that's a valid point - it's easier for people to adopt a tool they are familiar with. >> >> But, if we talk about people in general, I doubt the usage of GitHub alone is going to bring new people to IETF: people will join IETF if they are interested in what we produce - not the tools we are using. Otherwise one could claim we should start writing of drafts and RFCs using MS Word, because of the big community out there... __ > > That argument ignores the people who are interested in our work, but don't know how to engage or don't want to, because of the tools and processes we use are unfamiliar and clunky to them. > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > From nobody Mon Dec 10 03:44:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D9C130EC0 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m_mDe2fIBfgR for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EF97130E3C for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id m22so10913454wml.3 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=2kbO8Q+kTw1Zl26GWIE+Q5p1/bUJim6QCcRK57GLSrU=; b=AHHKDL/F9eqUYVnPDXxw1tODkXI4KE4Ojan1NM+d2ChHwrNCq6wstcxTGe0d6Yt2Hj RW4x0Snh02b3h9051dnfim/fjT3Mz3V0qI/1RcL6Z05rY4SWTt+LYdkaQNTn1NJeHceE qLCHi2nuewfwY6cSDllI7yIZkHU9kZosWs41PseVWdHT/HxPO+F0Be90A+W0RgyZSEDl ASWP/I+4QLnuPK6zQJNUEjfbO017P4LogQ9DwMprxUXdWGsRhwBfPYT6oIwF/DG3pcUT 06pYyul2Xb7nX/SBww58exf1r4xMx2jGdqqTepUEPEWfbUw2xEIGIw0Im/2woZ2Tam1i 5vng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=2kbO8Q+kTw1Zl26GWIE+Q5p1/bUJim6QCcRK57GLSrU=; b=IdTd/2f4G315aMct7Xiib2MRiCVvZ/YdLHwlc6DPCRbXjogJFHQqtsfjx68erhOWY1 SCESmY6aNyy/A6Eh6zAZlXiew2sznWoOS9xeT5/ipkIHdYrd776A1KzDylR3K9heIdt6 WPfaZJQ6pvfTV43FxnYZF20USg8zU2QP4E8FBt8K4TMICf8NALnqokx0ndXuTLZMmoWb ytt5rN0IDJpUap1OhTxtnuIo0YqLvUtpc/bYiyj22HMCQri1sNhu2LKgGBRfjfpY4rmW KVbUPQ21fHWZg3Rmgn+1kcK1a+wp3gShDs1yMzknkxFqdJsuuv2aHt102GeCSbmVxAsp Yllg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbih7A2PoL7Xb0XJg7g6dANtbivkrOsckk71ZvGubuqEhUaYY+d rURXMNOqs0E2oQmAE5fzrFNf1WxR X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VwvhfMzS4xM3+6QZHgnSm51poJQQchd+MQterFIsfG9HhnTY/UVqlLsAcaJH/zYWUOC2tKww== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1688:: with SMTP id 130mr9796433wmw.86.1544442269323; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.198] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 133sm9829147wme.9.2018.12.10.03.44.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:28 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Martin Thomson , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 11:44:27 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 11:44:33 -0000 On 10/12/2018 09:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > But deciding that we should use a particular tooling because a > particular group of external people are comfortable with it and may > join our work if we use it seems wrong. I agree. BTW the natural conclusion of that slippery slope is that we go over to using MS Word like pretty much every other SDO. - Stewart From nobody Mon Dec 10 04:49:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DB0130E62 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 04:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2ucv6TWWVER for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 04:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62BD0127B4C for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 04:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Halpern" CC: Martin Thomson , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter Thread-Index: AQHUjkXrwKnU0M8+KUylS/6utYM9saVz+9aAgAA5PACAATI5gIABVowAgACYqoCAAMDgAP//6kKA Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 12:48:55 +0000 Message-ID: <14B55891-AA7C-469E-B8E6-A80CDD9B7B92@akamai.com> References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.14.0.181202 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.36.166] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-10_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=713 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1812100117 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-10_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=707 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1812100117 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 12:49:00 -0000 PiAgICBTbyBsb29raW5nIGF0IGhvdyB3ZSBjYW4gdXNlIGdpdCAvIGdpdGh1YiBpcyByZWFzb25h YmxlLiAgU2F5aW5nICJ3ZSANCiAgICBoYXZlIHRvIHVzZSBnaXRodWIsIG5vdCBqdXN0IGdpdCwg YmVjYXVzZSBvbmUgZ3JvdXAgb2YgcGVvcGxlIGlzIG1vcmUgDQogICAgY29tZm9ydGFibGUgd2l0 aCB0aGF0IiBzZWVtcyB3cm9uZy4NCiAgDQpJIGRvbid0IHJlY2FsbCBhbnlvbmUgc2F5aW5nICJ3 ZSBoYXZlIHRvIHVzZSBnaXRodWIuIiAgRG8geW91Pw0KDQo= From nobody Mon Dec 10 06:10:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD821130EA5 for ; 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Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:10:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:10:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, "Salz, Rich" , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000df8f1b057cab875a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:10:48 -0000 --000000000000df8f1b057cab875a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I also agree with Stewart and Joel (and Fred's comments earlier in the thread). Developing IETF-focused best practice procedures for using Git as a draft development tool is very reasonable, we should of course take advantage of externally-developed tooling when it makes sense. However, saying that we have to use GitHub because "that's where the developers are" makes very little sense to me. If you're comfortable with using GitHub, you'll be comfortable using the same toolset hosted elsewhere as well. And I much prefer the IETF using hosting resources that are under its own control rather than having to depend on the kindness (and support) of others. GitHub is a major attraction to the DDOS community (see https://www.wired.com/story/github-ddos-memcached/ for example), and any outages on their part, whether caused by DDOS, HW failures, ISP failures, etc., would be totally out of our control. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:44 AM Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 10/12/2018 09:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > But deciding that we should use a particular tooling because a > > particular group of external people are comfortable with it and may > > join our work if we use it seems wrong. > > I agree. > > BTW the natural conclusion of that slippery slope is that we go over to > using MS Word like pretty much every other SDO. > > - Stewart > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000df8f1b057cab875a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I also agree with Stewart and Joel (and F= red's comments earlier in the thread). Developing IETF-focused best pra= ctice procedures for using Git as a draft development tool is very reasonab= le, we should of course take advantage of externally-developed tooling when= it makes sense.=C2=A0

How= ever, saying that we have to use GitHub because "that's where the = developers are" makes very little sense to me. If you're comfortab= le with using GitHub, you'll be comfortable using the same toolset host= ed elsewhere as well. And I much prefer the IETF using hosting resources th= at are under its own control rather than having to depend on the kindness (= and support) of others. GitHub is a major attraction to the DDOS community = (see=C2=A0ht= tps://www.wired.com/story/github-ddos-memcached/ for example), and any = outages on their part, whether caused by DDOS, HW failures, ISP failures, e= tc., would be totally out of our=C2=A0control.

Cheers,
Andy


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:44 AM Stewart Brya= nt <stewart.bryant@gmail.com= > wrote:
=

On 10/12/2018 09:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> But deciding that we should use a particular tooling because a
> particular group of external people are comfortable with it and may > join our work if we use it seems wrong.

I agree.

BTW the natural conclusion of that slippery slope is that we go over to using MS Word like pretty much every other SDO.

- Stewart

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--000000000000df8f1b057cab875a-- From nobody Mon Dec 10 06:34:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC28130EEA for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GBNkulE6PJi6 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 298C5129533 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id u6-v6so9842775ljd.1 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mzI12KKKf+Cmt2i6S5SBUjZ58hUYfnXEUpWT309xGHY=; b=Zp03o0H7hOQvTl8KVgIyKQoiWHylt7S/K4wpcwCzcqb8Q4wlu5nxKdPVnd8YJyjfPK xuLoAPH3rUhZri4JA7cXul43j5lxi+SsfqbGCxxRGpYPqXk21pscR/piaOf8HVTUHrPl 2UHNPM5yyBxxGW0rMs5OyYwVHoTPxgQFSqUB2xqu3HW00o2LJNsybaQ1t0pQfUfbyZ4J njl15vPbW2Z85HZ21DhVmJYjEaRHKrI/yAReK4pxLeZY9qaWPijFb7eagqAL1cZTtthq ex9UkI5UHi0+13WMItPE5ZGQryLigQR6YEUr8jo8nZc+cdjRp8S38lq1kBeiMK9WZlR0 Xsow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mzI12KKKf+Cmt2i6S5SBUjZ58hUYfnXEUpWT309xGHY=; b=KRQsR6UFWClOibpGmNY/kqlzlj2HyH4EwkTVmeYYXhvfshn5bN37/6gglGMXIroE0L wHMfwIsGEi/eVCVTClvhW2XEddU65If8TlL1doR8+RQu61hV4q3f0ciGmJIefsTBXlwA CLQDI51e11Wnpr8bWKJ7sRYjKO9n3YvkT85om16yS7FgdYO3B43r54nr7y7hihj/445Q TSRl/vqOQ2l0v6ny+hED3H+8/17y9CwIE7JvM12D6oRoScT64oo0P+azNDIhjoy3zuLa o4qmkk8TR8hK3byPbUkHgTu2yoJAesRaBJdDqIxCVccv4gfljMOjBEyiiXU4IOtwKgFa o6xQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaehJK2xKSHWn3IjxUnUuhATamy+vGTDTLdrFFe10of2ZuEhw/l /esNRPYR92LQ/vJJGAKS/FUG11ygWhkLCXKcgS7QS4EEbZk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WerxroNL2D6eJY/zGFkrZ9tcpcGL+UPGlIrKdZVMeBHc9wQ2PtqMfd06mOuYZ1eGjkcFRPUzWGjoM/78nCF3w= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5418:: with SMTP id i24-v6mr8038911ljb.51.1544452479354; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:34:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> <14B55891-AA7C-469E-B8E6-A80CDD9B7B92@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <14B55891-AA7C-469E-B8E6-A80CDD9B7B92@akamai.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:34:01 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067a5dd057cabdd9b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:34:44 -0000 --00000000000067a5dd057cabdd9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Indeed. I'm not quite sure I understand the thrust of the argument that people are making. 1. A significant fraction of the community has decided (for whatever reason) to use Github. They could have decided to use self-hosted Git or some other Git service, but they didn't. 2. The processes and tooling on our side for using Github are not great. 3. The purpose of this WG is to define requirements and norms to remedy (2). In other words, we're trying to pave the cowpaths [0]. Nobody is stopping you from (a) using another Git service (b) hosting your own Git service (c) using some entirely different tool, And if enough people do one of those things that it's worth trying to build some common understanding of how to do that, then that's something we should consider at that time. However, that's not what people are doing now, and the idioms for those cases (especially self-hosted Git) are sufficiently different that trying to cover all those cases would be significantly more work, and would work less well. So, I think this WG should focus on the Github use case. And if someone later wants to do a Gitlab one or adapt it to self-hosting, then that would be fine. But we should resist the urge to over-generalize at this point. -Ekr [0] http://www.designingsocialinterfaces.com/patterns/Pave_the_Cowpaths On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 4:49 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > So looking at how we can use git / github is reasonable. Saying "we > have to use github, not just git, because one group of people is more > comfortable with that" seems wrong. > > I don't recall anyone saying "we have to use github." Do you? > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --00000000000067a5dd057cabdd9b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Indeed. I'm not quite sure I understa= nd the thrust of the argument that
people are making.

1. A signif= icant fraction of the community has decided (for whatever
reason) to use= Github. They could have decided to use self-hosted Git
or some other Gi= t service, but they didn't.

2. The processes and tooling on our = side for using Github are not great.

3. The purpose of this WG is to= define requirements and norms to
remedy (2). In other words, we're = trying to pave the cowpaths [0].


Nobody is stopping you from (a)= using another Git service (b) hosting
your own Git service (c) using so= me entirely different tool, And if
enough people do one of those things = that it's worth trying to build
some common understanding of how to = do that, then that's something we
should consider at that time. Howe= ver, that's not what people are
doing now, and the idioms for those = cases (especially self-hosted Git)
are sufficiently different that tryin= g to cover all those cases would
be significantly more work, and would w= ork less well.

So, I think this WG should focus on the Github use ca= se. And if
someone later wants to do a Gitlab one or adapt it to self-ho= sting,
then that would be fine. But we should resist the urge to
over= -generalize at this point.

-Ekr

[0] http://www.designing= socialinterfaces.com/patterns/Pave_the_Cowpaths




On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at= 4:49 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.co= m> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So looking at how we can use git / github is reasonable.= =C2=A0 Saying "we
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have to use github, not just git, because one group of people= is more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 comfortable with that" seems wrong.

I don't recall anyone saying "we have to use github."=C2=A0 D= o you?

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--00000000000067a5dd057cabdd9b-- From nobody Mon Dec 10 08:50:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEACF130DC7 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZXKFB0D1gc5A for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07381128D09 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id v1-v6so10308576ljd.0 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:50:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rd4Hy9il1SW+awQhV3L3ceq+NW4BDbvWqoKlyvoJg6Q=; b=iD4VPnqI8BfoSI4CL1tmhxd1vdE9kIMWm23Z2wIt6nHQe891+FEBUZfGWuIuC6TzSb DDK/uy7mvluH5KEwFyDLIlqIFzTnrmkgxLR3Wsk0QI/NaT4pPFyblJHtl162ee43nI1a RNuccKbWRz06kX7w4G208pc654yWue6zGb5H25f/2Hcq8BgnkltsqhTqCZGGc2OP6TLU CzOiRxlawlrWTYtKZ/ShckQpDylUAx98xkIY9mSbavuiqPXYoi7Wf2qFR6ny8FkF2gMA Pln3WLlk4U0IIQFhRBZrgNXRlsgFpyFpqQoo3CiHGkCUpBaXSVBnsMGtnz17bIGw9DWZ Id/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rd4Hy9il1SW+awQhV3L3ceq+NW4BDbvWqoKlyvoJg6Q=; b=YULuiH4U+exaIDU0HSD4Xd8hDA9QfHBdMyIXuCfDETHduChkJJzZStmkR5eKdoUkyf 73bIpmdVAQK4ylthvtblpk6l3mcuA33oaFP8OSLnCNRGI4L/bbtkJCNUCVEqPWNAuLD7 jakr7R9zhoyoOCOrPa9W63EaYSgvlyaP4oReCL2j7MN2xExC6JJjpz6V1HjJa7Qvlu5a Tm+iU+hYq3KwiHjaPofZIrqN+zhfAw/PiyklqyFGb+0LoKUH8H9AoYlf6nM6SwE46Xoi ht195FZvEiaAED05q5/ckt1uMfn7GSpi9bvuSk6cT1TCgT2FQ7WKv9U+fDRpfuKtLG+0 ts5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWar+1ld46pzWkS1K9BtkMW7W87mMdNz/3hRSwE5xzI0wnBvE2do NSJFl8iS2Pl/zMSC3Dg9wgGhJSw5dccMFrNB7DNYlA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VNdaIiS+YeRG1Qxt0+S12NY1zPboBo4ZN8ttrurIldhn1tQBbS6s1Hm518uIUQU+TD/85mtmqWwtsOKw3hvDY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a84:: with SMTP id p4-v6mr7476661lji.73.1544460619089; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:50:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:49:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: agmalis@gmail.com Cc: Stewart Bryant , "Salz, Rich" , "Joel M. Halpern" , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000092209c057cadc2a5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 16:50:27 -0000 --00000000000092209c057cadc2a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 AM Andrew G. Malis wrote: > I also agree with Stewart and Joel (and Fred's comments earlier in the > thread). Developing IETF-focused best practice procedures for using Git as > a draft development tool is very reasonable, we should of course take > advantage of externally-developed tooling when it makes sense. > > However, saying that we have to use GitHub because "that's where the > developers are" makes very little sense to me. If you're comfortable with > using GitHub, you'll be comfortable using the same toolset hosted elsewhere > as well. > This is actually a somewhat complicated topic, as "the same toolset" could mean several things, in increasing order of dissimilarity from the currently common model. 1. Github Enterprise (https://enterprise.github.com/home). 2. Some other self-hosted version of a Github-like workflow (gogs, etc.) 3. Self-hosting of regular Git (+review tools, CI, etc.) People who are comfortable using Github might be comfortable with Github enterprise (though creating a new account *is* a significant barrier in practice). And of course, this isn't actually a standalone thing because you'd need stuff like continuous integration, which Github doesn't actually have but rather people outsource to other tools like CircleCI which are integrated with Github, The other options actually feel pretty different. As an example, BoringSSL is hosted on Git but uses a totally different workflow based on Gerritt and its own CI and it would be quite unfamiliar to someone who knew Github. > And I much prefer the IETF using hosting resources that are under its own > control rather than having to depend on the kindness (and support) of > others. GitHub is a major attraction to the DDOS community (see > https://www.wired.com/story/github-ddos-memcached/ for example), and any > outages on their part, whether caused by DDOS, HW failures, ISP failures, > etc., would be totally out of our control. > This is really off topic for the question of whether we ought to form this WG, but like it or not, the industry is largely moving away from self-hosting. As a concrete example, Mozilla has a substantial ops department and used to have physical datacenters, and has moved the vast majority of that stuff into cloud. Even beyond that, a large number of our mission-critical services (e-mail, calendar, chat, etc.) are cloud hosted, and this is basically the way that the industry is going, even for organizations with a much larger ops budget than IETF. -Ekr > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:44 AM Stewart Bryant > wrote: > >> >> >> On 10/12/2018 09:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> > But deciding that we should use a particular tooling because a >> > particular group of external people are comfortable with it and may >> > join our work if we use it seems wrong. >> >> I agree. >> >> BTW the natural conclusion of that slippery slope is that we go over to >> using MS Word like pretty much every other SDO. >> >> - Stewart >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >> > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --00000000000092209c057cadc2a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 AM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree with Stewart and Joel (and Fred's comments earlier in the= thread). Developing IETF-focused best practice procedures for using Git as= a draft development tool is very reasonable, we should of course take adva= ntage of externally-developed tooling when it makes sense.=C2=A0

However, saying that we have to use = GitHub because "that's where the developers are" makes very l= ittle sense to me. If you're comfortable with using GitHub, you'll = be comfortable using the same toolset hosted elsewhere as well.
=

This is actually a somewhat complicated topic, = as "the same toolset" could mean several things, in increasing or= der of dissimilarity from the currently common model.

1. Github Enterprise (https://enterprise.github.com/hom= e).
2. Some other self-hosted version o= f a Github-like workflow (gogs, etc.)
3. Se= lf-hosting of regular Git (+review tools, CI, etc.)

People who are comfortabl= e using Github might be comfortable with Github enterprise (though creating= a new account *is* a significant barrier in practice). And of course, this= isn't actually a standalone thing because you'd need stuff like co= ntinuous integration, which Github doesn't actually have but rather peo= ple outsource to other tools like CircleCI which are integrated with Github= , The other options actually feel pretty different. As an example, BoringSS= L is hosted on Git but uses a totally different workflow based on Gerritt a= nd its own CI and it would be quite unfamiliar to someone who knew Github.<= /div>

= =C2=A0
And I much prefer the IETF using hosting resources th= at are under its own control rather than having to depend on the kindness (= and support) of others. GitHub is a major attraction to the DDOS community = (see=C2=A0https://www.wired.com/story/github-ddos-memcached/ for = example), and any outages on their part, whether caused by DDOS, HW failure= s, ISP failures, etc., would be totally out of our=C2=A0control.

This is really off topic for the question= of whether we ought to form this WG, but like it or not, the industry is l= argely moving away from self-hosting. As a concrete example, Mozilla has a = substantial ops department and used to have physical datacenters, and has m= oved the vast majority of that stuff into cloud. Even beyond that, a large = number of our mission-critical services (e-mail, calendar, chat, etc.) are = cloud hosted, and this is basically the way that the industry is going, eve= n for organizations with a much larger ops budget than IETF.=C2=A0

-Ekr


Chee= rs,
Andy


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:44 AM Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmai= l.com> wrote:


On 10/12/2018 09:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> But deciding that we should use a particular tooling because a
> particular group of external people are comfortable with it and may > join our work if we use it seems wrong.

I agree.

BTW the natural conclusion of that slippery slope is that we go over to using MS Word like pretty much every other SDO.

- Stewart

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Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--00000000000092209c057cadc2a5-- From nobody Mon Dec 10 10:23:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438B6131145 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:23:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=evequefou.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LAEf1kO6yW9o for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam03on0701.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe49::701]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9CD1129533 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR22MB0165; H:CY4PR22MB0983.namprd22.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: evequefou.be does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: iVb5cYxuIJVsE2Y3vr1jcN58ylSkCc9d7W4NXZrfhfi1QVmMMth+oIR0vkxneE7n/VBSMSzofnd6bLbd068U/prrc5zTL42frIQ9KVCXSPNvWLVhhccczm/PIK6bZqYPRb+xOQZx2GBJsCPTgePIkySP7Rk86md4SZ8GtpLA6jHiAyC3jZn0hAtl+TF4ZcA9PqEGaixUYQjn4PtAQhYd7Hu9Ob+Ql6X2RiQqEnqERqe8g8lBHkjGPY/MDHBiwLOqe1dPjtoICLrTQHiXSptrOrAomI64RxvYfmv0YlimRvNAvWYhTQAl0x/G6c/x5hyM spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: evequefou.be X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 05696879-697b-4d93-588d-08d65ecc8073 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Dec 2018 18:22:53.9323 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 41eaf50b-882d-47eb-8c4c-0b5b76a9da8f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR22MB0165 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:23:00 -0000 Yes and no. For people that want to get deep into the process -- submit dr= afts, participate in discussions, etc. they'll certainly need to get into o= ur toolset. But one thing GitHub enables is a lower barrier to entry to pr= ovide specific feedback on a document. During both HTTP/2 and QUIC, we've = gotten drive-by editorial fixes from people who don't actively participate = on the list, but followed a link to the doc, saw an issue, and submitted a = fix. We've also gotten issues filed on things that weren't clear from the d= ocument. The IETF is constantly in search of document reviewers, and GitHu= b has helped us get reviews from people who weren't already steeped in the = tribal knowledge of the working group. It's not all rosy -- some of those review comments weren't directly useful = feedback, because the reviewer was unaware of other context. But even thos= e sorts of comments highlight where something that we think is clear and ob= vious wasn't to a lay reader. I think the appeal here is two-fold: The tools in GitHub et al. help those= of us "in" the IETF do things more easily, and it provides another on-ramp= for people to interact with the work we're doing before deciding it's wort= h getting heavily invested and participating. -----Original Message----- From: Ietf-and-github On Behalf Of Chris= ter Holmberg Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 12:03 AM To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Salz, Rich ; Martin Thomson ; ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter Hi, >>>> The primary advantage we gain from using GitHub is access to the c= ommunity of people who are already there. >>>=20 >>> Strongly agree. >>=20 >> If we talk about IETF contributors, that's a valid point - it's easi= er for people to adopt a tool they are familiar with.=20 >>=20 >> But, if we talk about people in general, I doubt the usage of GitHub= alone is going to bring new people to IETF: people will join IETF=20 >> if they are interested in what we produce - not the tools we are usi= ng. Otherwise one could claim we should start writing of drafts and=20 >> RFCs using MS Word, because of the big community out there... __ > > That argument ignores the people who are interested in our work, but = don't know how to engage or don't want to, because of the tools=20 > and processes we use are unfamiliar and clunky to them.=20 As far as I understand, those people will anyway have to use many/most o= f our tools, because formal decisions etc will still have to be done in the= WG, on the mailing lists etc.=20 I DO like the way you use GitHub in HTTPbis, and I personally use it for= my drafts (the XML code, and to track issues), so I think it can be very u= seful. I still doubt it will bring new people to IETF - but hopefully I'm w= rong :) Regards, Christer =20 _______________________________________________ Ietf-and-github mailing list Ietf-and-github@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Mon Dec 10 13:23:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21699130FF0 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.358 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.358 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M4m6eTXRLXY6 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69629130FA5 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id a14so5829170plm.12 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dg/V4hH3PtUzXAmJwDKxlvwQpfeR1iV9pPAS4YgORjc=; b=DwJZ/DxT0gzFIJXXw+y7Ptwcn93lNuoypTqdzVRfsth6Q1TN+YleqGpVWyo3zFbyXg vXd4JnS8rRbT2JjEtwgwvy18P/PPn+8TBWEkdFB3tu98dt11SgugaADr2+8mVRvt4o04 DejVukotuO7yZJ89bjeZD3A0wuuLbD252KMPqGVi3uOcurUvqaxBl1iUOHU9U325HB3U FS91RT/SKkx0SkHpOYFc57/k4FU3CsEgYJarR6tok8ZlwKSoEJ2zbneY/oP6fuEOyl2/ 4T1Dh4Y2i+dF7AkmDlE++57gBY/rvPnq8nQxzSrBD8hLV8T6QSIX0av+jmsPenjtbzIS BAIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dg/V4hH3PtUzXAmJwDKxlvwQpfeR1iV9pPAS4YgORjc=; b=KLt61l4Ye841UY6YE3D0MAJTWBu3YhP9Q3bPFiq5u6bvkWD1XOt8iFLVa0NqadB1NN 2rkn5YW7ShH/SY4D19jqPhooY5lu8M8OD4IQagCmEt55YMOT61DTekvEOzvLmH+LLReQ po+XX7Xvtsi+WCX6P0KlVYTzcKQqQFIOkPJfq+UOrIIchdISt6mErsuFtmRBHEwA3aki DxCwVrJyrd/LAV/xCOyCjSHFOBF4jP34S3wufMGwQA/eHftbYP0bVclrlkZOftvW4DIq +mteHyRiddkuI2CII9FAl1zQEQ+9bGS/6nag5fvGfWKmBLPcKEa7uyNFMbroglXNgC41 AmNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZMxUUtwz92K4mP4QMuZJdJiFCTPPZxnY8ofLBggsRyJQP6IO0j YNx3Cmgha37XPQbl5Wtoz6ovGFL2Vw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VxJUR9xbK7MRzPdWGyDsF0AWkwlXZHftNACglUm9ONlIGNl6gnKWrAWMLIvKLUFY5VfsBfyA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:bd92:: with SMTP id q18mr13714651pls.167.1544476983537; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-35-146-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.35.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w10sm15373401pgi.81.2018.12.10.13.23.02 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:23:02 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <039d3ce4-eb2c-cc95-6bd3-052089b9876f@nomountain.net> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 12:23:01 -0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:23:06 -0000 On 12/10/18 9:22 AM, Mike Bishop wrote: > But one thing GitHub enables is a > lower barrier to entry to provide specific feedback on a document. > During both HTTP/2 and QUIC, we've gotten drive-by editorial fixes > from people who don't actively participate on the list, but followed > a link to the doc, saw an issue, and submitted a fix. We've also > gotten issues filed on things that weren't clear from the document. > The IETF is constantly in search of document reviewers, and GitHub > has helped us get reviews from people who weren't already steeped in > the tribal knowledge of the working group. That's really interesting, as it's something I haven't seen happen in other working groups (and yes, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"), and it would be excellent if we could tease out why this happened and whether or not it's something we could do in other working groups using Github. To be perfectly honest I suspect that it has something to do with QUIC getting a lot of attention right now rather than specifically because of the tooling, but I could be wrong about that, and if so, it would be extremely useful to figure out what led to more input from the broader (non-IETF) community. Thanks, Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Mon Dec 10 13:27:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FD813121E for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V9CCK8ALEgS2 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECF21131052 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id u6-v6so11044132ljd.1 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:27:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YNVXeuO8W9GDCileoLoH84SSjrxrFhkfNDwsBaA99+E=; b=eOe51gDNl7CKrhEIt8aHUJqaOU8OGzTQ2raODkU9oPG608HaQjYYgEulWSPgBqp5cN 1IlIMcfB4XvFhLsnog3JnGba4atb7XXjSCGn/bjdB4Ybj/farfBSuHMt3YdJ6Laniw7J PdruaIW+CdegyLDI0+XvkHQuAcb7xc30Sgq29RlqX3zYhYqE6x9UV9EmPylh/tJlOCEB bfVy5nXtstkfRg3ZPmnkoxpLXJMmTpJharzP6By3AdS+L4Z5KeWvWGdIatZWTD6NoOSi ClYnHC56+Oeudg3ZGFNfbrjonFpB0/N3SEBHqrl51FEz0RtA7bNjFipAQtArIT605GP3 YdiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YNVXeuO8W9GDCileoLoH84SSjrxrFhkfNDwsBaA99+E=; b=FuObgdpp7DAplGKFVt7m1ZfxHM4xruFEHN70LZ3Z+ydXWvNKklWnl9vdfAk1Jop3Tb 8XrqVv84MHBo1/Q3LuZRm4sRQz6DjgWvo3qfd0HlXVHM9VY2QUeFck8TIAFNMRovhcWb OTVi5ZpylN+fNLX0Op8bGVFV5RyjiSH3rzLLeP/8IGcoHhm2Z/sBXkpOFGh5AQBfm0Ex Gi94OYK266V+sUKmBcS7GyKEmlb5WTyihbaBuX61rz605JuVk5GUiFER4R/Rm8WeSipN 5XRvpq5RD8xvy4sTWxNDh6Rd1FaXKqY/YSglhbszQmcUS0K7wOH4jZesqhaZmtnlXsEg 7fAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYmFdSWPDy3+tOvZkab7fAvYRTEUFg5GFlZ52iUgJPkbt0EgaqK 9ONCKPiZKBoRJSylvc0QWfvDRpIY6qZXe+7b8pEvsRTS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VNFoYeZc+Akw5niXSplrfXtbs+7T+L+HgKu8loW6xfERJ6zlHd0PGxJScEQ24x1TPyGeI1fi+HcUQXxbL3gmc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3218:: with SMTP id y24-v6mr9221786ljy.157.1544477249169; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:27:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> <039d3ce4-eb2c-cc95-6bd3-052089b9876f@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: <039d3ce4-eb2c-cc95-6bd3-052089b9876f@nomountain.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:26:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: Melinda Shore Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ccffc4057cb1a12d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:27:34 -0000 --000000000000ccffc4057cb1a12d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 1:23 PM Melinda Shore wrote: > On 12/10/18 9:22 AM, Mike Bishop wrote: > > But one thing GitHub enables is a > > lower barrier to entry to provide specific feedback on a document. > > During both HTTP/2 and QUIC, we've gotten drive-by editorial fixes > > from people who don't actively participate on the list, but followed > > a link to the doc, saw an issue, and submitted a fix. We've also > > gotten issues filed on things that weren't clear from the document. > > The IETF is constantly in search of document reviewers, and GitHub > > has helped us get reviews from people who weren't already steeped in > > the tribal knowledge of the working group. > > That's really interesting, as it's something I haven't seen > happen in other working groups (and yes, the plural of > "anecdote" is not "data"), and it would be excellent if we > could tease out why this happened and whether or not it's > something we could do in other working groups using Github. > To be perfectly honest I suspect that it has something to > do with QUIC getting a lot of attention right now rather > than specifically because of the tooling, but I could be > wrong about that, and if so, it would be extremely useful > to figure out what led to more input from the broader > (non-IETF) community. > I don't think it's because of QUIC being popular (at least not solely). We see the same thing in TLS. -Ekr > Thanks, > > Melinda > > -- > Melinda Shore > melinda.shore@nomountain.net > > Software longa, hardware brevis > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000ccffc4057cb1a12d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon= , Dec 10, 2018 at 1:23 PM Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:
On 12/10/18 9:22 AM, Mike Bish= op wrote:
> But one thing GitHub enables is a
> lower barrier to entry to provide specific feedback on a document.
> During both HTTP/2 and QUIC, we've gotten drive-by editorial fixes=
> from people who don't actively participate on the list, but follow= ed
> a link to the doc, saw an issue, and submitted a fix. We've also > gotten issues filed on things that weren't clear from the document= .
> The IETF is constantly in search of document reviewers, and GitHub
> has helped us get reviews from people who weren't already steeped = in
> the tribal knowledge of the working group.

That's really interesting, as it's something I haven't seen
happen in other working groups (and yes, the plural of
"anecdote" is not "data"), and it would be excellent if= we
could tease out why this happened and whether or not it's
something we could do in other working groups using Github.
To be perfectly honest I suspect that it has something to
do with QUIC getting a lot of attention right now rather
than specifically because of the tooling, but I could be
wrong about that, and if so, it would be extremely useful
to figure out what led to more input from the broader
(non-IETF) community.

I don't think= it's because of QUIC being popular (at least not solely). We see the s= ame thing in TLS.

-Ekr


Thanks,

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.s= hore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR22MB0069; H:CY4PR22MB0983.namprd22.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: evequefou.be does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: V1Eq9qrUBICmqYOFv2X7pjvTZsmDZorcC21gsLEBsqyq/ZR/RjOEpcxH4Z9zMfjEQtlLa/fj5vM1MjGreGoGCyTelCqNaU59zgN6gq0n6klmKjZrYuD6DGB7IR28KzBXvrJdrYYD9y3XV6CblTrShxvIJQ+BQ94XEFtqcNjbkobzCRU1VY+dM/T5edg6reS2R+41DWE4eZYEn++jyDU/h3tea6FfRBY44qavSI9lAw6TPGnx4usWonNnfKE21o+FUKxwmAzuE+bLXFH+lXM9jdN4C6imKO3fE6BrImjBaJdTxiVpD9VO77beVGPa0h0l spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: evequefou.be X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0ff87246-c48e-4903-46ca-08d65ee64df0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Dec 2018 21:27:36.1335 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 41eaf50b-882d-47eb-8c4c-0b5b76a9da8f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR22MB0069 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:27:43 -0000 Yes, I suspect the reading-the-doc happened because of the current populari= ty of QUIC development and the then-popularity of HTTP/2 development. My f= ocus is on the ease with which readers could self-convert to contributors, = not necessarily the problem of getting pre-RFC readers in the first place. -----Original Message----- From: Ietf-and-github On Behalf Of Melin= da Shore Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 1:23 PM To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter On 12/10/18 9:22 AM, Mike Bishop wrote: > But one thing GitHub enables is a > lower barrier to entry to provide specific feedback on a document. > During both HTTP/2 and QUIC, we've gotten drive-by editorial fixes=20 > from people who don't actively participate on the list, but followed a=20 > link to the doc, saw an issue, and submitted a fix. We've also gotten=20 > issues filed on things that weren't clear from the document. > The IETF is constantly in search of document reviewers, and GitHub has=20 > helped us get reviews from people who weren't already steeped in the=20 > tribal knowledge of the working group. That's really interesting, as it's something I haven't seen happen in other= working groups (and yes, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"), and it w= ould be excellent if we could tease out why this happened and whether or no= t it's something we could do in other working groups using Github. To be perfectly honest I suspect that it has something to do with QUIC gett= ing a lot of attention right now rather than specifically because of the to= oling, but I could be wrong about that, and if so, it would be extremely us= eful to figure out what led to more input from the broader (non-IETF) community. Thanks, Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis _______________________________________________ Ietf-and-github mailing list Ietf-and-github@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Mon Dec 10 21:17:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6038128D0C for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ts0G6NcMkhCF for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AF79126CB6 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id x202so11006803oif.13 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:17:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hiB9yCQSswWZ9eqZlziOIET2BJsY/di7dq9hfu6Tqi0=; b=mCC662JwWWIhWJHJpqhcKco/02hfpR54nJRJoFl+Otf/CwxE4h/zfwJ2yCKLE+WmB/ glP8aDO/wiLlAu4ajyFjqWPWc5dqH7lUxKvbQH6Ls8fMpINYJ/6ld870ePOiaRopLTpU vIvM9gdXfSeuUxS4Jf2ygN14Q8lW/7DbBh2vVarjb4XPgtMOd9xifa2hDYtIyCyTHkis jscOD5fBifGM96JdLozYOVFOImDeu2cyZezeKu7ALyvxm8WUiTgcQhzuV6eYMtCQU2AS sRMorLVLTJ4yxRKtwdtqTZZnY4emVigpUA04Gfx2gjbjEJa5Tqqvpv8LCmGNfOUwneH1 HppA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hiB9yCQSswWZ9eqZlziOIET2BJsY/di7dq9hfu6Tqi0=; b=lkcjCeEFSHG6BfvL/iIPy7QtZTlBUIVkejI3YsEAj2+3pSJTZj9iAgGGZulPY1eO5v l2Hv2OKqlKkCDVqbzOMOmc5p9v6NB6sAYpSmg9SHV/dFln1JU7PKrOjaP/nAOqWfgqbr H+0GJnsg3OSzpQYTXTknjFR6c5da4vTC+DLt91+8lurQ5VqWh5x8RC9TGt9tSrEVKcgj Q8VNRJIpDzZ/jFB3YaGQwBnxEr0R9J2aiPJPx//3JmQ+b8ye1eCA4zckGXrOGjmJ69Jo diSFugKKYGU96S1cZvegGZ8BqzcSMW/9k6SKYwB9pG9eDBrEqPxlvzbhrmGpYrzjW6Oa cBmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWY1HJqFfJO9VhBh+2vEAGiSyZ11Vvh008WpEiI0sX70UvPKWvsm Pg47DFk7qxVlnw3yX76uFxNeQMA25xSqUNVbkwc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/U5WzIBj8SQvAyz1tZbrFS6FY2fSYjd+irn2nqbsl+F52O1V4pRfxdiTj8BD8bct1s1ekvMRp2gAlJ5WsQ7hWk= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5406:: with SMTP id i6mr524334oib.344.1544505474955; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:17:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> From: Martin Thomson Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:17:44 +1100 Message-ID: To: Aaron Falk Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 05:17:57 -0000 On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 9:17 AM Aaron Falk wrote: > Sorry, let me make my question more explicit: is it the intention that wo= rking groups will be able to use GitHub and deviate from the policies? We h= ave a lot of process BCPs that don=E2=80=99t permit that. This would deviate from that. I don't see any reason to forbid the use of GitHub outside of these practices. The point here is to pave the cowpaths, not sow the rest of the area with spikes. > I think so. Maybe BCP9 as it would avoid hairsplitting about updates to t= hat doc. Also, I received a couple of private emails making me think it mig= ht be a good idea to call out that the group should address IPR and Note We= ll concerns. BCP 9 it is. I agree about note well/IPR. I just don't think that it is necessary to encharter that, if only because the charter is already too long and opaque. From nobody Mon Dec 10 21:29:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195E9128D68 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:29:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GECYoxS2YSk7 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AB88126CB6 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id v6so11079135oif.2 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:29:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bzdoen+GW50be/sDmqhfiIdrTtevpaIDhveGWlQqeqE=; b=OoWWy/KsLcF54wcsPTjS3KXp6pb2Zhp3lDkCb9ktrg6ALZO1zdK8n0xKwHLABsiJJh QGGDydE/VpHZlxjp5VcsKnktRUeUZ1wEQyWPXHilIluXot0zbRqfLocfjo8YOPMBSozA +IacRWoIW1BTSz4eftlh8DPg572+eZAd5Yr8rgoZaupnkc3q7Q7lByPIrThS8lGZkOEz VhdWDbGscHqFUmHaZ1Th8dvCFRScb5KsXxj2EjYtgYgbEriAC4Vhm1Q1mAIU/i/7oUkt XmFpBPndrLR/e2+iwrHl/mjz8seWWH87OnSxo3AlXuOjRKwlvBwipRlmzRR+/K5R5lsJ kumA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bzdoen+GW50be/sDmqhfiIdrTtevpaIDhveGWlQqeqE=; b=kc6061QvvCN16selZdAaNKfb2ZVPnJ0oh3CCT4Dv4DyezgH96iC/JSbdqwv0Zo/y6u U+rtj2Hb+La3VGbsNBXcS+bc1GZJMvUr1WnJZH+dXIPnQYQH4Ud/b2VJ7pH5EFHW42/v 5Ejg4GWjc22GfDPK8NsBlQTZIeTEwa4FNKzzPwU08QW8ine5pH04OkzhQ6PPJkRbB9vt 5qSpKpPdHRjoNKYZvYMjnON6tjvarVyvyiAJFuhGD+gdxpsMTFa5tv8nROwpiYwXnlCP uRZ2OlT5KnxiExtnmJ5sn/cRil5wcHWaJ0JC2ZkCXxFZBHPU9TsaPm2yW2wwbXaWTAK2 7Jpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaa1YsMlTbD44WRn1Ex7NCdNPG5CKn/7PJOpZLR8LoIgYtpu+8N cfcxSfHbvp3haCHwwX+ASDA4oGqgawOhwgF/byGvUCKD X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VujhpaNWhvtb8ZWquAXIFzEmjihOspO2jeFIvm2icoFvbC+OkOTimdX5xWCo4RsVmPJZC8j1V6B9RMMTom6WA= X-Received: by 2002:aca:3a83:: with SMTP id h125mr495240oia.308.1544506141640; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:29:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Thomson Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:28:51 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, "Salz, Rich" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 05:29:04 -0000 On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 8:06 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I have no objection to looking at new tooling that may make our work > proceed better. But deciding that we should use a particular tooling > because a particular group of external people are comfortable with it > and may join our work if we use it seems wrong. There are many > different external groups we would like to engage more. They use many > different tools. This implies that we're speculating about external people. That's not the case. We've real evidence of bringing new contributors into the process via this channel. I don't want to name names, but on the documents I've worked on there have been several individuals who have made significant contributions, participating only via GitHub. Some of those people have moved from exclusive GitHub use to include (sporadic) use of email, but not all. > So looking at how we can use git / github is reasonable. Saying "we > have to use github, not just git, because one group of people is more > comfortable with that" seems wrong. That's not what is being said at all. What is being said is that GitHub is the path we want to provide this additional support for. 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:OSAPR01MB2308; H:OSAPR01MB4434.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:0; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: it.aoyama.ac.jp does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: cOO/83SLs3Lskqhy+bemDP0X95rNv/ryBZtxSVPgc0qg9ATUZIcXaFZ9qNMdSsE8vrjBOA4imTUvmMWtANuoH8X+TYiTRxaB/e4krE6RS6TCRePEpNcB5ZBRUu5qdJcX3SqjmCp94LClsywPq7kzvB4H8zpCllhTRE2YtccwDAxAm/TOXketmwN95egdG5uFgb94WfzZzyYxczPTBB3l1G8BmMZ94tfbN0hlrMCT9DPT7vBdVu2hgKhHkz5aEQpCk37HHKV/PMrYzIITZzmUrdpCUriaOqnZrNQAf4rLQQl+pso+VqMDQwqEa7fpSs1u spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <64177056258C564484692110672F125D@jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 53ff28f8-b52d-46cf-3be5-08d65f2de963 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Dec 2018 06:00:11.4515 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: OSAPR01MB2308 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 06:00:17 -0000 DQoNCk9uIDIwMTgvMTIvMDggMTE6MTEsIEZyZWQgQmFrZXIgd3JvdGU6DQo+ICsxIHRvIENocmlz dGVyJ3MgY29tbWVudHMuIEkgd291bGQgYWRkIG9uZTsgaXQgc2VlbXMgbGlrZSB0aGVyZSB3YXMg aW50ZXJlc3QgaW4gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYWJvdXQgYWRkaW5nIGFuIElFVEYtb3BlcmF0ZWQg Z2l0IHJlcG9zaXRvcnkgdGhhdCB3YXMgSVB2Ni1jYXBhYmxlLiBUaGUgYXJndW1lbnQgYWdhaW5z dCB0aGF0IGluIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nIHdhcyB0aGF0IEdpdEh1YiBpcyBjb21tb25seSB1c2VkLCB3 aGljaCBzZWVtcyB0byBtZSBhIHdlYWsgYXJndW1lbnQgYXQgYmVzdC4gSWYgdGhhdCB3ZXJlIGFk ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyLCB3ZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBpbiBhIHBvc2l0aW9uIHRvIGRpc2N1c3Mg aXQgYW5kIHBlcmhhcHMgYWRkIGl0IHRvIHRoZSBJRVRGIHRvb2xzLg0KDQpJcyB0aGUgKG1haW4p IHBvaW50IHRvIGhhdmUgYW4gSVB2Ni1jYXBhYmxlIGdpdCByZXBvc2l0b3J5PyBJbiB0aGF0IA0K Y2FzZSwgd291bGQgaXQgYmUgc3VmZmljaWVudCBpZiBHaXRIdWIgb2ZmZXJlZCBJUHY2IHN1cHBv cnQ/DQoNCk9yIGlzIHRoZSAobWFpbikgcG9pbnQgdG8gaGF2ZSBhbiBJRVRGLWNvbnRyb2xsZWQg cmVwb3NpdG9yeT8NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywgICBNYXJ0aW4uDQo= From nobody Tue Dec 11 05:52:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFA8126BED for ; 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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:52:26 +0200 (EET) From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <4B58480F-C4D9-4284-9880-AEB89CC364E5@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CF3A6436-F257-45A1-BBEF-892B2272C93F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:52:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Martin Thomson , "Joel M. Halpern" , ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Eric Rescorla References: <5FA7335C-714E-4BC5-AD36-45E13576F8FB@ericsson.com> <72730606-D780-4625-8B8A-E783E83235CF@akamai.com> <0D072440-452E-49A4-8E96-3D692E0F7B7B@ericsson.com> <14B55891-AA7C-469E-B8E6-A80CDD9B7B92@akamai.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 578CB84342F.A35C1 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:52:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CF3A6436-F257-45A1-BBEF-892B2272C93F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_671A0315-C1C2-4CA8-A6B3-D60083E79B6B" --Apple-Mail=_671A0315-C1C2-4CA8-A6B3-D60083E79B6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2018-12-10, at 16:34, Eric Rescorla wrote: > So, I think this WG should focus on the Github use case. And if > someone later wants to do a Gitlab one or adapt it to self-hosting, > then that would be fine. But we should resist the urge to > over-generalize at this point. +1 Lars --Apple-Mail=_671A0315-C1C2-4CA8-A6B3-D60083E79B6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = 2018-12-10, at 16:34, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
So, I think this WG should focus on the Github use case. And = if
someone later wants to do a Gitlab one or adapt it to = self-hosting,
then that = would be fine. But we should resist the urge to
over-generalize= at this point.

+1

Lars
= --Apple-Mail=_671A0315-C1C2-4CA8-A6B3-D60083E79B6B-- --Apple-Mail=_CF3A6436-F257-45A1-BBEF-892B2272C93F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAlwPwRkACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeQhBAAyjlmvgMIvwr9oXmOEc57biDDLZPvB3mzerpsCE52PT+zELt86SWPt7Co qVpr6rTd/Q2mdom3KDzvQDerjP8fjZ79LTZB49006fAPLIXHZu1nVfJvN3Zxtpy0 7vAWj7ad902kVqHi/J6upS3ft5my0oxbBbpjob+WFVrNyfM1A5MLpMP+KunQF1H8 9SFSlgM2gkZ3V04ligm1S1QSsXrB3gsuZB1QiN8uETeXwTxfn6GQaHTqBE9Qh3at SNNcv8qID82dMe6S5HpgXOwp3mHzNOIfX2QeSN9EaodVimeyqoabI9GZ/GHZBbSq KntY54xu/Ng4jwnyKH6U1QQGo+bPYPX84QKWTpIlLAgE2ysQhDC8rb4fF13+iple 0NALCqzPIXxw1YEhcJfypuEEm37h1Z4DHoXW0HGFWaU8uPUmUVKZQMM6wojmEPJv hXMTV9fBQMOGWfyQ8l3gHENoJwyNcnr6NDX064mGz+8/voAg3RNgUukaSLPvYkhm jc9mizD4zBPXfI6jC/UVDaGyGIfVNVXo8f37aS5hZ7J0N8Q9NRpKfT1f10yxfCLz CgXN+FUYCrIR2NAUUYzbG8c/eQqenN5VREeslTLyRiqnsy5RdGcqv6smX0bLxKE1 zXiXXENMst6guKWVuC1VKuBfd+IA+HR2AGIIy5dcUFdU/JEcRbs= =rwv+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CF3A6436-F257-45A1-BBEF-892B2272C93F-- From nobody Tue Dec 11 13:02:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC95C130FAE for ; 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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:02:28 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AE26E49A-1BCD-4D9A-94FF-C0F5239D253F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:02:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> Cc: Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Aaron Falk References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:02:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AE26E49A-1BCD-4D9A-94FF-C0F5239D253F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Dec 7, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Falk wrote: > I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don=E2=80=99t = understand what happens after the IESG receives the =E2=80=9Cwork = practice description and policy document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must they be = approved the IESG? What is the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or = wants changes? Will there be some public artifact of the output? >=20 > This would be a working group as normal, where the output of the group > is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and > community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I > don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though. >=20 > Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion about the charter of the = working group should take a stand on and be explicit about what the = actual output should be. I agree that consensus documents like BCP RFCs = would be appropriate. >=20 >=20 I think the way we typically handle this is in the milestone = descriptions (not formally part of the charter since they can be updated = independently from it, but good to have there at charter time). So in = this case the milestone could be altered to say "Work practice = description and policy document(s) submitted to IESG for publication as = BCP(s).=E2=80=9D If it turns out the WG or the IETF wants to change the = documents=E2=80=99 standards level later, that is doable, doesn=E2=80=99t = require a charter change, and happens fairly often. Alissa > --aaron >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_AE26E49A-1BCD-4D9A-94FF-C0F5239D253F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Dec 7, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m = not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don=E2=80=99t understand = what happens after the IESG receives the =E2=80=9Cwork practice = description and policy document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must they be approved the = IESG? What is the role of the wg if the IESG disagrees or wants changes? = Will there be some public artifact of the output?

This would be a working group as = normal, where the output of the group
is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and
community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I
don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though.

Ah, here I disagree. I think = the discussion about the charter of the working group should take a = stand on and be explicit about what the actual output should be. I = agree that consensus documents like BCP RFCs would be = appropriate.



I think the way we typically handle this is in the = milestone descriptions (not formally part of the charter since they can = be updated independently from it, but good to have there at charter = time). So in this case the milestone could be altered to say "Work = practice description and policy document(s) submitted to IESG for = publication as BCP(s).=E2=80=9D If it turns out the WG or the IETF wants = to change the documents=E2=80=99 standards level later, that is doable, = doesn=E2=80=99t require a charter change, and happens fairly = often.

Alissa

--aaron

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= --Apple-Mail=_AE26E49A-1BCD-4D9A-94FF-C0F5239D253F-- From nobody Tue Dec 11 13:26:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EDF130F44 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o_juBnhqvaYU for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F860124D68 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id u6-v6so14376618ljd.1 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:25:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s5K/HGKDSrKJVClXjTeodvjBJAejkWo54qnzioJcZ/o=; b=Mj/caJPmjF7+8ae9z3quGPCkWEbMJK2TFrCmvP/d/rYFU08NFgakQeQdX43TIMjPMs 0V5ZgweGUBBKSouBkeea9y0W3K0pwKTJ3WXSMdE82LcMAcH85NJWV3L7YnihRxI6bN97 8N9cNlzxgaWA/OWsP9Ei9AUdXD3bdSLS/k/QizESdzhkiMm2xAy2PA/30sax/UpxtTGq nicyHSNA9XX7bR+vROJGilEN89GX1ZU5LxWUyUhgSbNlr7ExZ0LGQqW8MKGoFE3VnCxJ B1GZGZXXkqa8R2lC1Fl4Nya+kAX0GNZzbyz3zuqsfLr0lLnH6ybBDiOto+ZrGXMI7zgp U47g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s5K/HGKDSrKJVClXjTeodvjBJAejkWo54qnzioJcZ/o=; b=MUITvhWbRCkcYY472p2TY0nnk/lrFuy4JULV7ICZIKyf9XsJH0xNFvbsbGaM0w37KP iKwr58wZW3o4QWGv2j42pm8zkARiyY8dCh+4jAf2dwMJkg53TgwMeUA9gSGOdGQDZQu9 3Dr06v4vYEbmTA6vgW82s9gkogi+9GHqoc3VPl4SEg4AyzMAIhIoZ72A3eWNAce6Fpo0 cKVICNnFNQh4mimVTZZl/seH6j2aFaT8nFqm+0yRYjcj/J/pi8/Xs6kf4EkElMhB91fs sEM0YVmFRU2pouUVxrAknAx/TTESrK8gvlsXETV6AhK+BN7rWcWo57TQGxwH1sNG7/+f A1VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaEJH/ylRNjgxDZ3WP6qJKRJLz2BDYq+fG50jS4kC86Muf/hDVL SDc1aSjD8qtKT8UkkCbRkeslVAbJVT5EjvxhJNE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/V5NAJ91SHuMWsuFUnae4lQfkKqBZsJYZzp3XByFkoCatyYIuhaoZOQP3ZMgTGL6BIWadhPz7RtFO/e2kVslfk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:851a:: with SMTP id j26-v6mr10709522lji.163.1544563555075; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:25:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:25:43 -0600 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: Aaron Falk , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000088c59057cc5ba6f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:25:59 -0000 --000000000000088c59057cc5ba6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As one of the ADs who will likely ballot on this charter and not on the resulting documents :-) On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 3:03 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > > On Dec 7, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Falk wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don=E2=80=99t und= erstand what > happens after the IESG receives the =E2=80=9Cwork practice description an= d policy > document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must they be approved the IESG? What is the role of= the wg if > the IESG disagrees or wants changes? Will there be some public artifact o= f > the output? > > This would be a working group as normal, where the output of the group > is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and > community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I > don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though. > > Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion about the charter of the > working group should take a stand on and be explicit about what the actua= l > output should be. I agree that consensus documents like BCP RFCs would be > appropriate. > > > I think the way we typically handle this is in the milestone descriptions > (not formally part of the charter since they can be updated independently > from it, but good to have there at charter time). So in this case the > milestone could be altered to say "Work practice description and policy > document(s) submitted to IESG for publication as BCP(s).=E2=80=9D If it t= urns out > the WG or the IETF wants to change the documents=E2=80=99 standards level= later, > that is doable, doesn=E2=80=99t require a charter change, and happens fai= rly often. > What Alissa said, seems like the most helpful formulation to me. If the working group is (for example) targeting BCP, that may result in a particular document structure and style (for example, using BCP14 keywords), and having a target may make things easier for the working group. If what the working group delivers would be more appropriate as something besides a BCP, that change is doable, as Alissa says, and can happen as late as IESG Evaluation (as per https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2). So we can always do the right thing. Spencer --000000000000088c59057cc5ba6f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As one of the ADs who will likely ballot = on this charter and not on the resulting documents :-)=C2=A0

On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 3:03 PM Alissa= Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> = wrote:

On= Dec 7, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com> wrote:
=

I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs in the ch= arter but I don=E2=80=99t understand what happens after the IESG receives t= he =E2=80=9Cwork practice description and policy document(s)=E2=80=9D. Must= they be approved the IESG? What is the role of the wg if the IESG disagree= s or wants changes? Will there be some public artifact of the output?

This would be a working group as normal, where= the output of the group
is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and
community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I
don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though.

Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion a= bout the charter of the working group should take a stand on and be explici= t about what the actual output should be. I agree that consensus documents= like BCP RFCs would be appropriate.



I think the way we typically handle this is= in the milestone descriptions (not formally part of the charter since they= can be updated independently from it, but good to have there at charter ti= me). So in this case the milestone could be altered to say "Work pract= ice description and policy document(s) submitted to IESG for publication as= BCP(s).=E2=80=9D If it turns out the WG or the IETF wants to change the do= cuments=E2=80=99 standards level later, that is doable, doesn=E2=80=99t req= uire a charter change, and happens fairly often.

What Alissa said, seems like the most helpful formulation= to me.=C2=A0

If the working group is (for example= ) targeting BCP, that may result in a particular document structure and sty= le (for example, using BCP14 keywords), and having a target may make things= easier for the working group.=C2=A0

If what the w= orking group delivers would be more appropriate as something besides a BCP,= that change is doable, as Alissa says, and can happen as late as IESG Eval= uation (as per=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2).=C2=A0
<= div>
So we can always do the right thing.=C2=A0
Spencer
--000000000000088c59057cc5ba6f-- From nobody Tue Dec 11 13:32:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10361286E7 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:32:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XgUJ_5O49SaD for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 785D5127AC2 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id e5so18174651qtr.12 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:32:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:embedded-html; bh=gEGalkN3b2K7ia7AWIJLUZHvz4e+o+I/U1v4qw92P7k=; b=EGhK3ahqVBJA03rTHsPGp9FnAa201w/M619H7FPw7bUFvj9OFD3nO3byV7RTUugNWX bUEaE5h/SYXYxZwwiNSf2juTvVmOKXZwnhxHm6sDoJsvkUUEmH9zPk68rGQzcpEqFM4x uxV/imMKUSMX0lCaRPeEBnvWMFFNXrhbEi7o9R/g3CI4sBO8MQmdgZc9MNOzloxmkYUv s3GiWXae74MKZzNdmdZ0xpILuvtcBBIOrw41NwU1n1GPOFKR3TPh2qLd13RJhru0yK2e nwyWKdBOUVVDoVqH6DBl77VgfZhZKL9s/rftvACcMmA9V8NjXRxXGKe/7VKRazpP8Nal zFMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:embedded-html; bh=gEGalkN3b2K7ia7AWIJLUZHvz4e+o+I/U1v4qw92P7k=; b=WRwIDnCKPKdtUMJMsGxQMEESbC9rSGJkXB2U+Tme2LGPHSQKNqqJk5ie+6lxQVX6dr 822dxK7WK6jrnivt6nF6gSzv5wkbiOrV2q6meQ+YPJILnEmfjEaxq3BZrJhviQmBlKKM UsXK5hGdRDIKW3W9bDOKGFt27fWgY+YEZUAuMMvRiP18LAdCz02278JtT8TQWsMxhj3Y u9mjMQcNhR0A7zrcoC3zZiIFy8mv3t6ObaJVqlOBV8D213lYw32gn581vYGDfN/234ok XHQqmhFsu0ECQJLTFe+LMy1BrJNin3V/Yd4sUPqxiuteLuwEqgGbf2oa/rz90Ow6D32y Oaug== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWY/mv7HTBJgoefzX6/lTqOTMrpSrYLQklp479vNDWuzK601bgxw qIYeWMppC5cgAVYTacvTFAY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Wibu8BVUsYTj0pOcqPPqJM5IBs1frqYoMJ06EI/YsbULvvKvglQMa47RGKUhGQhNoXhhVgnA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:285c:: with SMTP id 28mr17094270qtr.54.1544563926457; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.33.4] ([2001:4878:a000:3000:61ff:bceb:473c:17c0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b8sm11433014qka.79.2018.12.11.13.32.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:32:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "Spencer Dawkins at IETF" Cc: "Alissa Cooper" , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, "Martin Thomson" Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:32:04 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.2r5568) Message-ID: <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_799998AB-4C80-4063-A7D6-986619B3CC83_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Embedded-HTML: [{"HTML":[413, 3299], "plain":[62, 2243], "uuid":"E30198CB-46D7-4DF0-ADF4-4F9F61A58E96"}] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:32:10 -0000 --=_MailMate_799998AB-4C80-4063-A7D6-986619B3CC83_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11 Dec 2018, at 16:25, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > As one of the ADs who will likely ballot on this charter and not on > the > resulting documents :-) > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 3:03 PM Alissa Cooper > wrote: > >> >> On Dec 7, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Falk wrote: >> >> I’m not sure if it belongs in the charter but I don’t understand >> what >> happens after the IESG receives the “work practice description and >> policy >> document(s)”. Must they be approved the IESG? What is the role of >> the wg if >> the IESG disagrees or wants changes? Will there be some public >> artifact of >> the output? >> >> This would be a working group as normal, where the output of the >> group >> is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and >> community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I >> don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though. >> >> Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion about the charter of the >> working group should take a stand on and be explicit about what the >> actual >> output should be. I agree that consensus documents like BCP RFCs >> would be >> appropriate. >> >> >> I think the way we typically handle this is in the milestone >> descriptions >> (not formally part of the charter since they can be updated >> independently >> from it, but good to have there at charter time). So in this case the >> milestone could be altered to say "Work practice description and >> policy >> document(s) submitted to IESG for publication as BCP(s).” If it >> turns out >> the WG or the IETF wants to change the documents’ standards level >> later, >> that is doable, doesn’t require a charter change, and happens >> fairly often. >> > > What Alissa said, seems like the most helpful formulation to me. > > If the working group is (for example) targeting BCP, that may result > in a > particular document structure and style (for example, using BCP14 > keywords), and having a target may make things easier for the working > group. > > If what the working group delivers would be more appropriate as > something > besides a BCP, that change is doable, as Alissa says, and can happen > as > late as IESG Evaluation (as per > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2). > > So we can always do the right thing. > > Spencer This sounds fine to me and what I was expecting. --aaron --=_MailMate_799998AB-4C80-4063-A7D6-986619B3CC83_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= br>

On 11 Dec 2018, at 16:25, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote:

As one of the ADs who will likely ballot = on this charter and not on the resulting documents :-)=C2=A0

On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 3:03 PM Al= issa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m not sure if it belongs i= n the charter but I don=E2=80=99t understand what happens after the IESG = receives the =E2=80=9Cwork practice description and policy document(s)=E2= =80=9D. Must they be approved the IESG? What is the role of the wg if the= IESG disagrees or wants changes? Will there be some public artifact of t= he output?

This would be a working group as normal, whe= re the output of the group
is subject to the normal processes. So we have both IESG and
community approval. As Mike says, BCPs seem the likely result. I
don't want to prejudice this with text in the charter though.

Ah, here I disagree. I think the discussion= about the charter of the working group should take a stand on and be exp= licit about what the actual output should be. I agree that consensus doc= uments like BCP RFCs would be appropriate.


=

I think the way we typically hand= le this is in the milestone descriptions (not formally part of the charte= r since they can be updated independently from it, but good to have there= at charter time). So in this case the milestone could be altered to say = "Work practice description and policy document(s) submitted to IESG = for publication as BCP(s).=E2=80=9D If it turns out the WG or the IETF wa= nts to change the documents=E2=80=99 standards level later, that is doabl= e, doesn=E2=80=99t require a charter change, and happens fairly often.

What Alissa said, seems like th= e most helpful formulation to me.=C2=A0

If the w= orking group is (for example) targeting BCP, that may result in a particu= lar document structure and style (for example, using BCP14 keywords), and= having a target may make things easier for the working group.=C2=A0

If what the working group delivers would be more app= ropriate as something besides a BCP, that change is doable, as Alissa say= s, and can happen as late as IESG Evaluation (as per=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc2026#section-6.1.2).=C2=A0

So we can al= ways do the right thing.=C2=A0

Spencer

This sounds fine to me and what I was expect= ing.

--aaron

--=_MailMate_799998AB-4C80-4063-A7D6-986619B3CC83_=-- From nobody Tue Dec 11 17:13:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CDA127598 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 17:13:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id abRXZ5fsqRff for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 17:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x232.google.com (mail-oi1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1918130F62 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 17:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x232.google.com with SMTP id h25so13743104oig.1 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 17:13:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X3ehi9nkbuBkVeEtbwvaeRzew6ijlnKQ9nXxCWafrcs=; b=LgQb2zUlbwkqTCMwG5Sx6jWpQK8f5Eakjd6WKqBnRZ6JkpfmVF8toRgPIRTXhAVfKq YDRrBufPt5HY5IOKx7pfP+EMcOCArzs06S99oeLQZN9vuZfHtLUa2pPN5MDEq1WfWraD 2kbkQs6xjSpwlfliE2flRqXhGCzMmKQguWn0/WsLFsYvlGS30cfOZtZV58ruILWYoHO0 i56iO13HG4PvfSvjVyBLPJC3kbG/j1EKoM99wNVWilh28x8VvPKhZzRGAVVyU2/v2J3Q g/Jvppz6FQdeOQZe7uwPo0+e/cbTyXvpNGo49HUDWjFZJ2gVe8KZ3XvK+LYbZ7Z01tCV gDsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X3ehi9nkbuBkVeEtbwvaeRzew6ijlnKQ9nXxCWafrcs=; b=FxNRQQBPeH516JjRtihNSwHsnEwNCh6IiXG++vwTeZEf3wvT9t1kYEhf3WMTkhjiAc 6Bxr7pPdOsf2Xwu8xtI5pmafXgTtY5c5vXNT4V7wN1aXMFa/YaGqd7jmB9wsPaoe/ABK Q8KvT8f3/L8GsaAymn1PexqxwxTfJASj9jfZdaV1ZvkvGUW7EJMXf98DNHYpTSeHy3Gg mZfdajgG6+mQqjiM0UZ8+ZeV1Z5gOf81AtlkT0ndVoqUP4gHshHsqollpoORf/oncyBb Ww8zqsjOHC//epO+NrJNooubNq1WdeksoTpK/GHHLipzSI6wvSBVuxIN8fKvxxad8Ajd YqXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYsKCvySvXWV+FCgHbgFZJ35W/PjzSWkz/uVXKYsekG6wR3yHs8 E67uhawFop0TCL3omXIGbNyUJixCj62yikGelqA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Xm2hMblgPLZHLzYGhwaPjAv2v+8hnDp6foJ8HVjoJWV10XOzx2zkHkdFm1Hr51+iTCPSk86Nm1485v/0Xs2D0= X-Received: by 2002:aca:3a83:: with SMTP id h125mr84547oia.308.1544577213884; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 17:13:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> From: Martin Thomson Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:13:25 +1100 Message-ID: To: Aaron Falk Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:13:38 -0000 In an attempt to close the loop on this, I have two edits: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/commit/ad5bde52112c10d2ac78ebc32366bb19ac280a2f Proposed text: +The documents will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9), they will +describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to +support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. And Alissa's suggestion: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/commit/d53f32ad0130c18ba11b830d5ebc001eb5902a61 As always text/PRs welcome. I'm certain that this could be improved further. 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Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:20:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> From: Martin Thomson Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:20:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Aaron Falk , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:20:58 -0000 On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:22 AM Christer Holmberg wrote: > A minor comment: I suggest to say "The processes will not alter..." instead of "The documents will not alter...". Thanks Christer, The intent is to document the practices, which is stated in the preceding text. So I think that "documents" is fine. 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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:51:40 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: Martin Thomson CC: Aaron Falk , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter Thread-Index: AQHUjkWv8n4MHhWMMkO7BQG+MZgpuKVzmAeAgAA8DgCAAASJAIAGNHoAgAAGgYCAAAHGAIAAPdiAgACIuICAAMiaAIABBBoA Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:51:40 +0000 Message-ID: <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.13.0.181109 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=christer.holmberg@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [89.166.49.243] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM6PR07MB6103; 6:sDyOrlgZ/ZVIvHimQDcZ/HDc+j9eOICS1QtPoghGN4WB8x0gKMAYzAwG2yokB91MKLRb48YxxBtlPEjjvaeyOuvl/Btg3zd8lmH2g4BodVOyymeHjkUdz9ZkJlcf0Ewro54LnZ9peG7qEx+QYpGG6rhX/cFF1dwL5wjWZsj7fTjcibENb5yzHJGyGgLUaVzCPcKlHjHPCc8s6YO6jJ4jLhRcyCiOjYTWJJr+QfBlRmElcIIdeeLHVKOr7uvGW++v2eWIxm0FU13BMiCG6vuFPiObqmceL8bPLZq6dhihqN5aecukwUaVC2tbv+EfCDU7TMe5e3zFxw7XMi7t7sZzPLxYgxog6fTavKCxyePaAVviK7McyBsDF1V9U5DJOpsstzznQiEywrbh0trRK9hYmGCILcMDlXFkeCy0EJEwTMNZp1ZHUUVXTkrWP+DxJSk3ZI98z3UWxfXi3EBRFTyvcQ==; 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Mon, 17 Dec 2018 07:35:05 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New version of draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configuration Thread-Index: AQHUlh4ViKtxIRDGo0Wlw8jJRNyGCA== Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:35:04 +0000 Message-ID: <4B5BE766-7196-4A0D-A05C-E59AC97309F6@icann.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_18AD89E4-B067-4989-92D1-9BCB45BDCC00"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] New version of draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configuration X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:35:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_18AD89E4-B067-4989-92D1-9BCB45BDCC00 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings again. Alissa and I updated our draft based on what we heard = from BoF meeting in Bangkok. Hopefully this contributes to the = discussion of the proposed charter. --Paul Hoffman A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories.=20 Title : GitHub Configuration for IETF Working Groups=20 Authors : Alissa Cooper=20 Paul Hoffman=20 Filename : draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configuration-02.txt=20 Pages : 7=20 Date : 2018-12-17=20 Abstract:=20 The use of GitHub in IETF working group processes is increasing.=20 This document describes possible uses and conventions for working=20 groups which are considering starting to use GitHub. It does not=20 mandate any processes, and does not intend to change the processes=20 used by current working groups.=20 Discussion of this document takes place on the ietf-and-github=20 mailing list (ietf-and-github@ietf.org), which is archived at=20 .=20 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=20 = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configuration= / There are also htmlized versions available at:=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configuration-02 = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configur= ation-02 A diff from the previous version is available at:=20 = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configurat= ion-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission=20 until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=20 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=20 ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/= 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([2605:a601:a028:986:2077:81f6:4540:7fd8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j137sm20706870ywj.57.2018.12.30.10.53.04 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Dec 2018 10:53:05 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C900FC9A-ACC8-4743-8A0B-0E1ED16056D4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:52:54 -0700 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> Message-Id: <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 18:53:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C900FC9A-ACC8-4743-8A0B-0E1ED16056D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I know we have been discussing and talking about a charter for this = group. However, I think it is critical to mention that Github represent = a significant barrier to entry for a lot of people. Also, once a = document gets sufficiently large and has a significant number of = contributors, issues and pull requests, the work can nearly grind to a = halt do to the weight of the process needed to manage all of the = changes. It can also make it really hard for people to follow along on = what is being changed and what are all of the proposed changes for a = given piece of text. Meaning, it is hard to see all of the proposed = changes to a piece of text at the same time and allow people to comment = and suggest changes to other people=E2=80=99s changes.=20 What we need, we do not yet have. We need something like Google Docs = that automatically tracks all changes, comments on changes, and = suggestions in something like Github. Where the communication between = Google Docs and Github is bidirectional.=20 In the end, we need to ensure that anything we do with the charter will = not hinder people bringing work to the IETF. When I see the attendance = numbers and then compare that with the growth of other SDOs, we need to = enable more people to contribute and work on technology in the IETF, not = less. =20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." --Apple-Mail=_C900FC9A-ACC8-4743-8A0B-0E1ED16056D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I know we have been discussing and talking about a charter = for this group.  However, I think it is critical to mention that = Github represent a significant barrier to entry for a lot of people. =  Also, once a document gets sufficiently large and has a = significant number of contributors, issues and pull requests, the work = can nearly grind to a halt do to the weight of the process needed to = manage all of the changes. It can also make it really hard for people to = follow along on what is being changed and what are all of the proposed = changes for a given piece of text. Meaning, it is hard to see all of the = proposed changes to a piece of text at the same time and allow people to = comment and suggest changes to other people=E2=80=99s = changes. 

What we need, we do not yet have. We need something like = Google Docs that automatically tracks all changes, comments on changes, = and suggestions in something like Github. Where the communication = between Google Docs and Github is bidirectional. 

In the end, we need to = ensure that anything we do with the charter will not hinder people = bringing work to the IETF.  When I see the attendance numbers and = then compare that with the growth of other SDOs, we need to enable more = people to contribute and work on technology in the IETF, not = less.

  


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."


= --Apple-Mail=_C900FC9A-ACC8-4743-8A0B-0E1ED16056D4-- From nobody Sun Dec 30 11:31:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24B0130F4F for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:31:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08PEE7I6FwI5 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE1E8130F49 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id n18-v6so22455563lji.7 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:31:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bwnTcxndS5FSJnGJaVPqxvwYJI3fwz92KwsipZ5cpEE=; b=Urd4sBM4pvDInDozJRyJniJSwUrH8fbHNwPP1hhP1dzWC2zDABoyPdyQ9G6uIrVKec cMcB4i8TyzJGVwlY8IaAlm3hkLjLY3pqwu92e7BiwZegdHYvcn66mrkHHoTwpjFkasAt kxvhHIDdSZKdXcIIgx9kwGe3q65eZ1nEcJhrcNubJjoLB/76dnVSVp3TbpUChKUR7yZP nCCZZC4J3OjtSKz1kHfIQMIZwh/D2fAlfF9jDcyk6l9p3nMEK3piEFATOY0EBkQl7tTK 6saBOnGC0j2CbNI1dgopGwPbSpoWFX6YHyN1XZ37FnziuB3/HKuN+hmddONiHQlXwie4 L2Xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bwnTcxndS5FSJnGJaVPqxvwYJI3fwz92KwsipZ5cpEE=; b=X2E7i1kvarm1fqngWVmwI/V1VoxCPOP8sXYkKwncB3cRUyv+syLhvJTPZ7EeGMs1U2 GeACNU5y7UT5poLCt0BwkMV3dmTgakE8aweow+lmsnoQYDU5ydpnqzV62NZ0XLWu8ym2 JJFK/k32ct1MwoWp/CzMozEvGU0MF4MI80EDKIYI0sMCYYyVeOnbIKGiTNwEz4O4CaMw qA7HQ/xXCFjy9y2sx6yKBOMyp+GHvImJV9vtHIue+9/nO+/Yk+woK2oLXVEKaWry/Q0P q5X5pAWRyF1M+BMG/ZFCm4TygwX9gcXui43CXKW36x4VD+M8AgwmxfZOu3pFjDLzs/ma ++7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf3IZwoUu4xx8b+CKBOLuC2YXLbj0ENKSTXBw4YGFu08+RMsT0i MSGFRYUGry4FudPH7t/bQSiW62xYoCExb5u2h82aHQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7rStQZJmFdGsnmj3Hx/cB+lI5VhDdoKum0QhVb6yl02VKtzWjqSgWMp3c1TeShKq+d4yZ3qX7DEzyiCpBkPk8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:91d1:: with SMTP id u17-v6mr20176009ljg.160.1546198294074; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:31:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:30:56 -0800 Message-ID: To: Bret Jordan Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001228f2057e4258b0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 19:31:39 -0000 --0000000000001228f2057e4258b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:53 AM Bret Jordan wrote: > I know we have been discussing and talking about a charter for this > group. However, I think it is critical to mention that Github represent = a > significant barrier to entry for a lot of people. > Well, those people can continue to read the drafts as they are published and send comments in email as people have historically done. We do have people doing that and I don't see anyone proposing to change that. Also, once a document gets sufficiently large and has a significant number > of contributors, issues and pull requests, the work can nearly grind to a > halt do to the weight of the process needed to manage all of the changes. > This has not been my experience with any of the documents where we have used Github (specifically TLS and QUIC). Rather, in these cases we actually move far faster than on documents where we have followed a more traditional strategy. It can also make it really hard for people to follow along on what is being > changed and what are all of the proposed changes for a given piece of tex= t. > Meaning, it is hard to see all of the proposed changes to a piece of text > at the same time and allow people to comment and suggest changes to other > people=E2=80=99s changes. > I agree that this is an issue. What we need, we do not yet have. We need something like Google Docs that > automatically tracks all changes, comments on changes, and suggestions in > something like Github. Where the communication between Google Docs and > Github is bidirectional. > I'm not quite sure what you have in mind here, so it's hard to comment on. However, I have done a lot of co-work on documents in Google docs and my experience is it's not generally preferable to Github, In the end, we need to ensure that anything we do with the charter will not > hinder people bringing work to the IETF. When I see the attendance numbe= rs > and then compare that with the growth of other SDOs, we need to enable mo= re > people to contribute and work on technology in the IETF, not less. > This seems sort of tangential to the thrust of this proposed WG. We already have a lot of WGs who have chosen to use Github and my expectation is that trend will continue. This WG is about specifying some lightweight common practices to make it easier for people who want to use Github to do so, not about making people move to Github. With that said, my experience and I think the experience of all the major GH-using WGs is that it has brought in a lot of new contributors. -Ekr --0000000000001228f2057e4258b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, De= c 30, 2018 at 10:53 AM Bret Jordan <jordan.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
I = know we have been discussing and talking about a charter for this group.=C2= =A0 However, I think it is critical to mention that Github represent a sign= ificant barrier to entry for a lot of people.
=
Well, those people can continue to read the drafts as they a= re published and send comments in email as people have historically done. W= e do have people doing that and I don't see anyone proposing to change = that.


=C2=A0A= lso, once a document gets sufficiently large and has a significant number o= f contributors, issues and pull requests, the work can nearly grind to a ha= lt do to the weight of the process needed to manage all of the changes.

This has not been my experience w= ith any of the documents where we have used Github (specifically TLS and QU= IC). Rather, in these cases we actually move far faster than on documents w= here we have followed a more traditional strategy.

=

It can also make it really hard for p= eople to follow along on what is being changed and what are all of the prop= osed changes for a given piece of text. Meaning, it is hard to see all of t= he proposed changes to a piece of text at the same time and allow people to= comment and suggest changes to other people=E2=80=99s changes.=C2=A0
=

I agree that this is an issue.


What we need, we = do not yet have. We need something like Google Docs that automatically trac= ks all changes, comments on changes, and suggestions in something like Gith= ub. Where the communication between Google Docs and Github is bidirectional= .=C2=A0

I'm not quite sure = what you have in mind here, so it's hard to comment on. However, I have= done a lot of co-work on documents in Google docs and my experience is it&= #39;s not generally preferable to Github,

In the end, we need to ensure that anything we= do with the charter will not hinder people bringing work to the IETF.=C2= =A0 When I see the attendance numbers and then compare that with the growth= of other SDOs, we need to enable more people to contribute and work on tec= hnology in the IETF, not less.

= This seems sort of tangential to the thrust of this proposed WG. We already= have a lot of WGs who have chosen to use Github and my expectation is that= trend will continue. This WG is about specifying some lightweight common p= ractices to make it easier for people who want to use Github to do so, not = about making people move to Github. With that said, my experience and I thi= nk the experience of all the major GH-using WGs is that it has brought in a= lot of new contributors.

-Ekr
=

--0000000000001228f2057e4258b0-- From nobody Sun Dec 30 12:34:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05BEA12D4E8 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:34:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZIoEPrWRqoO for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc41.google.com (mail-yw1-xc41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 636F9130F96 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc41.google.com with SMTP id p65so8904846ywe.0 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:34:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=jJKyiFlVPLEvsBSi5xTGdTlQKYZSM2Hl/sNT+Gaug5k=; b=YLFqrdsIufl8wqCDABa/lvd18AYURIiTcCOdiSPnHKrNpGmKr5W7+jpKpbr6co31RI kd+fEOIJwzGOlaM5pavbpRFk9mTUhM15URAgiEVUnR1JNEdUUdrwnlDheq/MZavE7G4N szj9GT5G1lI7Km/+OxpecfE15JPBiWFqhLbdtK6iqMww4TRiPt56wQI/tkOMIyhYm8bC qGc6WZ0+OLzYyzHfnNPcWravRJjBzI3uNF7VMvMBH3NygAOLguuYedjds1xXdJrl5KGu jT9cPwhuSRnupe/9sX0kQWsvjA+SghDuLNYBN9FL0PyFstmguFr5wFwXbQSqE77t/dEv aOEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=jJKyiFlVPLEvsBSi5xTGdTlQKYZSM2Hl/sNT+Gaug5k=; b=HY+hiOjrhBGwZ5fkKXbM7kzIEPxXV7uziQNRlkYoMKJb8Pafg5DLVPS0d4GQ3DLwh+ 3yVrxBYg++x0bnKjaJPVsKXM7H2q+OPKsHOtMXFwbfFHXrL7jTYzNMogNx6x8+qE4SSE YztNaXWYkhlRvxmV6tDITMTHzD3rdvCLx5ZXmWUv2kZXPlAWmmc2OUT70T/HIxySeYe4 FSf4ynvMU94tUq6lg0BkBLpfPGFKy0113htW2qJ+ShOpWiQJmn9uC7Eeri/1+DyT8X0B CyTgc90Gb6Fj+YQOJzMkMIzuKeIVuPSjxxnE+u8NF2QnUudi2MvPOZdenvw+p4R4E9YC MTlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWY5lW9LtLXvVOe46hsTANCvaOESBiZ3QU60/wVQO+MpnXIZVsKz qZ6ANpcs1oyJ7HztDdxBARY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XrM8bGHR4N0JwTcoddgRWyz2kor07E1KIWwKqzw2xjSEAgjNaHy+qR7hIUh5YUQSI5jxs8ew== X-Received: by 2002:a81:4411:: with SMTP id r17mr34752071ywa.16.1546202083574; Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:148e:7cd:ebe4:16a4? ([2605:a601:a028:986:148e:7cd:ebe4:16a4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n133sm17166661ywb.55.2018.12.30.12.34.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:34:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B7362672-655E-4C68-8E96-2A54AC00F40D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 13:34:31 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: Eric Rescorla References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 20:34:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B7362672-655E-4C68-8E96-2A54AC00F40D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks for the comments and perspective. Some comments in-line. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:53 AM Bret Jordan > wrote: > I know we have been discussing and talking about a charter for this = group. However, I think it is critical to mention that Github represent = a significant barrier to entry for a lot of people. >=20 > Well, those people can continue to read the drafts as they are = published and send comments in email as people have historically done. = We do have people doing that and I don't see anyone proposing to change = that. Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait = until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told, = =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the Github = pull/issue methods=E2=80=9D. All I am suggesting is that we give some = care and thought to how this will be perceived by people that do not use = Git on a daily basis. Further, we need to understand what this will = mean for their ability to comment and provide suggestions.=20 An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the = GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as an = early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been = Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved to = do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then they = may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y. = We just need to be careful.=20 In all things like this, I think careful management by the chairs and = area directors can really help here and help ensure that all voices and = use cases are heard and given equal treatment. >=20 > What we need, we do not yet have. We need something like Google Docs = that automatically tracks all changes, comments on changes, and = suggestions in something like Github. Where the communication between = Google Docs and Github is bidirectional.=20 >=20 > I'm not quite sure what you have in mind here, so it's hard to comment = on. However, I have done a lot of co-work on documents in Google docs = and my experience is it's not generally preferable to Github, >=20 I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI = for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples = suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other = suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration of = prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We just = need to be mindful of this, and be careful. >=20 > In the end, we need to ensure that anything we do with the charter = will not hinder people bringing work to the IETF. When I see the = attendance numbers and then compare that with the growth of other SDOs, = we need to enable more people to contribute and work on technology in = the IETF, not less. >=20 > This seems sort of tangential to the thrust of this proposed WG. We = already have a lot of WGs who have chosen to use Github and my = expectation is that trend will continue. This WG is about specifying = some lightweight common practices to make it easier for people who want = to use Github to do so, not about making people move to Github. With = that said, my experience and I think the experience of all the major = GH-using WGs is that it has brought in a lot of new contributors. As long as it stays in that realm of thought then I can generally agree. = Meaning, a light-weight process that helps WGs if they choose to go this = route. But I would add that it also needs to be a light-weight process = to help contributors that want to work on a standard that may not be = well versed in Git. This work needs to address both sides of the coin. = I may even go so far as saying we should also call out some of the = pitfalls and problems that can arise and give some guidance to Chairs = and Area Directors on how best to manage it and support the working = group and our vast divergent user base. Bret --Apple-Mail=_B7362672-655E-4C68-8E96-2A54AC00F40D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks for the comments and perspective.    Some = comments in-line.

Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:


On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:53 AM Bret Jordan = <jordan.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
I know we have been discussing = and talking about a charter for this group.  However, I think it is = critical to mention that Github represent a significant barrier to entry = for a lot of people.

Well, those people can continue to read = the drafts as they are published and send comments in email as people = have historically done. We do have people doing that and I don't see = anyone proposing to change that.

Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when = they have to wait until a published draft is released to comment and = then they are told, =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed = it using the Github pull/issue methods=E2=80=9D. All I am suggesting is = that we give some care and thought to how this will be perceived by = people that do not use Git on a daily basis.  Further, we need to = understand what this will mean for their ability to comment and provide = suggestions. 

An example. =  A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the GitHub = issue / pull process to do X.  Then when it gets released as an = early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been = Y.  But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved = to do X.  However, if their comments would have come in earlier, = then they may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have = been for Y. We just need to be careful. 

In all things like this, I think careful = management by the chairs and area directors can really help here and = help ensure that all voices and use cases are heard and given equal = treatment.



What we need, we do not yet = have. We need something like Google Docs that automatically tracks all = changes, comments on changes, and suggestions in something like Github. = Where the communication between Google Docs and Github is = bidirectional. 

I'm not quite sure what you have in = mind here, so it's hard to comment on. However, I have done a lot of = co-work on documents in Google docs and my experience is it's not = generally preferable to Github,


I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had = some sort of easier UI for people to comment and make suggestions, and = see other peoples suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of = those other suggestions.  Github is generally bad at this and true = collaboration of prose text kind of requires this.  But I do not = have a solution. We just need to be mindful of this, and be = careful.



In the end, we need to ensure = that anything we do with the charter will not hinder people bringing = work to the IETF.  When I see the attendance numbers and then = compare that with the growth of other SDOs, we need to enable more = people to contribute and work on technology in the IETF, not = less.

This seems sort of tangential to the thrust of this proposed = WG. We already have a lot of WGs who have chosen to use Github and my = expectation is that trend will continue. This WG is about specifying = some lightweight common practices to make it easier for people who want = to use Github to do so, not about making people move to Github. With = that said, my experience and I think the experience of all the major = GH-using WGs is that it has brought in a lot of new = contributors.

As long as it stays in that = realm of thought then I can generally agree. Meaning, a light-weight = process that helps WGs if they choose to go this route.  But I = would add that it also needs to be a light-weight process to help = contributors that want to work on a standard that may not be well versed = in Git.  This work needs to address both sides of the coin.  I = may even go so far as saying we should also call out some of the = pitfalls and problems that can arise and give some guidance to Chairs = and Area Directors on how best to manage it and support the working = group and our vast divergent user base.

Bret





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charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-2f590f9a Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 16:39:18 +1100 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 05:39:24 -0000 On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: > Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait=20 Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens when = they do. > until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told,=20 > =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the Github p= ull/ > issue methods=E2=80=9D.=20 That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra context of = those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would say that= once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be resp= onsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new argument, wh= ich can be the case, that needs to be considered. Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the list= , or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that this will= happen with something where the positions are firmly held. > An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the=20 > GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as an=20 > early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been=20 > Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved to=20 > do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then they=20 > may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y.=20 > We just need to be careful.=20 One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on documents a= s a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that we've con= sensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is always open = for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious topic (QUIC= spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented and not= made available for discussion, but most of the rest is considered open. That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a disc= ussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I think that= it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these cases, th= ough doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there is new informa= tion about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be the most polite= approach. This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid to= chairs. > I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI=20 > for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples=20 > suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other=20 > suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration of=20 > prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We just= =20 > need to be mindful of this, and be careful. The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a good amo= unt of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installing git. = The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a business o= pportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from happening.