From nobody Mon Sep 18 07:40:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B70133188; Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:40:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Brian Haberman To: Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.62.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:40:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-dir] Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 14:40:27 -0000 Reviewer: Brian Haberman Review result: Ready with Nits * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. However, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original individual draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the WG draft. * The introduction says that this technique is needed to help monitor time & loss sensitive traffic. That would seem to indicate a need to associate these counters with individual flows. Has anyone done any calculations on how these counters will scale? Section 5 seems to indicate that there were only a few number of counters implemented via ACLs. * The draft sets out to develop this technique without augmenting packet formats. That makes the statement in section 3.1.1 about how to color packets is out of scope a bit disingenuous. I would have preferred a brief description of the few available options on coloring packets in this section. * The mention of maintaining timestamps for delay measurements is under-specified. Would the 32-bit NTP timestamp format be sufficient? The 64-bit NTP timestamp format? Guidance on how to carry out experimentation with this approach seems useful. Does the concept of adding timestamps per color block conflict with the first bullet of section 7 (only uses features already available on routers)? * If the above statement on per-flow counters is not true, can I not accomplish the same capability by harvesting ifMib stats per interface and compare xmit/recv/drop stats across the network? * The description of the Telecom Italia experiment references a 5-minute window per color. For time sensitive traffic like IPTV, how useful was the 5-minute reporting window? Were corrective actions taken prior to calls being handled by support? * The Telecom Italia experiment writeup does not mention how the counters were harvested from the routers. Were readily available tools used to do this? From nobody Mon Sep 18 08:43:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C50D1342BB for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:43:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=it-uc3m-es.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qULFDHSG6klw for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22d.google.com (mail-wr0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64576134291 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id k20so867687wre.4 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it-uc3m-es.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=message-id:subject:from:reply-to:to:date:in-reply-to:references :organization:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m70rVmpTsHgVJjj1GhyHWN6pX5z49SwJce/J9xotsgg=; b=rNPUygPWH331MpoY4RWZ8MTOoUp3Y0n/0ujspusmDyPU0xamdVZGvlUiTsdbRUIsWV 9IzRAJ2zScLipJHXFxhe7JHqNNyWq8j0q/DWLsYNSIHkViILJX+y2OKm+CrZeyCaVrY2 FCC/Z55qlZHPzsEf1vYszEPsqgS4rgcxg/QCHVmxOBfV/JZD0QVTgO4tst6TK0V15X2r ie75UEKhPbvzq550YM2/2d6oCzEn4DmwMD2zkj62BdwKYT5+8E3YLK/IZXuPV9qrtsj5 cvyBZYAwcovLwCOaeD9OYmzj+xHAzaQcwLCPUdNadqhjywnAUxFQyH4l0cB2ZrinvRfh hfmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:reply-to:to:date :in-reply-to:references:organization:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=m70rVmpTsHgVJjj1GhyHWN6pX5z49SwJce/J9xotsgg=; b=Kv3nP4GVlSuDUsa7qcW3kNguAkE8btg456zT25xpN8oMoqmM5KJ67TPY3BUDmGqtB3 u3GLmb6EMg0uLPfeCL+f8O2TtO9bPPyFNPSRJCo+1WE/oIkt0fIT1K9kUjcIOtOgIV7z /++I/4i5TfFNn1QTP0xINuPjLoGBl17UujP25looS+dyimAJB7AB3zFim5fQzt3N8zCK CXTb7z9LPiwPsBi/brDcH9HgW1deCplctJSa9KIww1Q8fVCymLBCVBL5GLTY1DNExzdh v5HwFhPkt8iFns/73CpB1B3KE0BbE+sAOjzu6CoiKVI3ZoVSSe2tpn6c7VDUt7pCmxZA qXOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUg9GPIsjDP8VJcwQAmVwVugnsbBBsrxIKg4di2y1gke0T1Sf7Yj kmzRAgN3HiiYBmAY/xM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADKCNb4ZwIREhfgka7Z8Zbu5XYXel+Vh9iSFQ0KzRFGRngunxIFjNFdPlkQDVJko+I3z/qesn22rLA== X-Received: by 10.223.150.113 with SMTP id c46mr26959187wra.30.1505749404702; Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acorde ([2001:720:410:1010:d681:d7ff:fe28:350b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j15sm6752787wre.87.2017.09.18.08.43.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1505749403.4498.28.camel@it.uc3m.es> From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano Reply-To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es To: Brian Haberman , int-dir@ietf.org Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:43:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> Organization: Universidad Carlos III de Madrid Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.22.6-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-dir] Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 15:43:29 -0000 Thanks a lot Brian! On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 07:40 -0700, Brian Haberman wrote: > Reviewer: Brian Haberman > Review result: Ready with Nits > > * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. > However, > the IPR declaration is only associated with the original individual > draft. The > IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the WG draft. > > * The introduction says that this technique is needed to help monitor > time & > loss sensitive traffic. That would seem to indicate a need to > associate these > counters with individual flows. Has anyone done any calculations on > how these > counters will scale? Section 5 seems to indicate that there were only > a few > number of counters implemented via ACLs. > > * The draft sets out to develop this technique without augmenting > packet > formats. That makes the statement in section 3.1.1 about how to color > packets > is out of scope a bit disingenuous. I would have preferred a brief > description > of the few available options on coloring packets in this section. > > * The mention of maintaining timestamps for delay measurements is > under-specified. Would the 32-bit NTP timestamp format be sufficient? > The > 64-bit NTP timestamp format? Guidance on how to carry out > experimentation with > this approach seems useful. Does the concept of adding timestamps per > color > block conflict with the first bullet of section 7 (only uses features > already > available on routers)? > > * If the above statement on per-flow counters is not true, can I not > accomplish > the same capability by harvesting ifMib stats per interface and > compare > xmit/recv/drop stats across the network? > > * The description of the Telecom Italia experiment references a 5- > minute window > per color. For time sensitive traffic like IPTV, how useful was the > 5-minute > reporting window? Were corrective actions taken prior to calls being > handled by > support? > > * The Telecom Italia experiment writeup does not mention how the > counters were > harvested from the routers. Were readily available tools used to do > this? > > _______________________________________________ > Int-dir mailing list > Int-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-dir From nobody Tue Sep 19 05:38:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F60613422C; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 05:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9jLBwC9ZDrZ3; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 05:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx02.telecomitalia.it (mx02.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB644134220; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 05:37:51 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97916-d0bff700000002cc-2e-59c10c17169c Received: from TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.27]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx02.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 0B.92.00716.71C01C95; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 14:22:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Brian Haberman , "int-dir@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 Thread-Index: AQHTMIwTgHBPtLv/Ek+KH+KOT06DRKK8HPNQ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 12:22:46 +0000 Message-ID: <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.238] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" content-transfer-encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrHKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHWlec52CkweQV3BYze/4xWsy63chu 8WzjfBaLR1e6WSx6HrxjdmD1WLLkJ5PHzONfWAKYohoYbRLz8vJLEktSFVJSi5NtlVwyi5Nz EjNzU4sUQlJzUpPzc5UUMlNslYyVFApyEpNTc1PzSmyVEgsKUvNSlOy4FDCADVBZZp5Cal5y fkpmXrqtkmewv66FhamlrqGSXWBpanFJvkJuanFxYnp6Zr5CasJ6wYwVyy6yF7ywqNix7hJ7 A+Ma8y5GDg4JAROJn6dluhi5OIQEpjJJTFpym6WLkZODTcBG4uCrE2wgtohAmMT2b13MIEXM AjMZJZq37WEFSQgLOEk8f9rDCFHkIvHs+UFWCNtIYv/1OWA2i4CqRNNGkGZODl6BQIknO76A DRUCqu/7eIoJxOYUcJW4+f082GJGAVmJCbsXgc1kFhCXeDH9BDuILSEgILFkz3lmCFtU4uXj f6wQtoHE1qX7WCBsRYmP5zczQtgyEguPTGYFeZJZQFNi/S59iJGKElO6H7JDnCMocXLmE5YJ jGKzkGybhdAxC0nHLCQdCxhZVjGK5lYYGOmVQGIvsyQxJzNRL7NkEyMwkdxcWSm2g7F1rfMh RgEORiUe3i8vD0QKsSaWFVfmHmKU4GBWEuG9/QkoxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iNEHGF4TmaVE k/OBSS6vJN7QxMLS0NjCwsjQwswUh7CSOO8CkFkC6cDklZ2aWpBaBDOOiYNTqoEx/819o/+3 3wpG6FitzPvdWXLxbM725zGLzwtPT2v4xhaV83BpYKXUxrBc2+ZFQQtr+LskDojl6qUmXWuz k/PmYylgf7361KT+m69WscftmhYttW3i5pVy87va4ie9rd287yGX9Ywexq3ddUf/MOumLzP7 96si+cO+fbs7DTdu9Vw2Y01MNaOxEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAa1n82lEDAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Int-dir] R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F9F13293A; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diaX3W-RDVD8; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uillean.fuaim.com (uillean.fuaim.com [206.197.161.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 239D713217D; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clairseach.fuaim.com (clairseach-high.fuaim.com [206.197.161.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uillean.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137E5880F5; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clemson.local (swifi-nat.jhuapl.edu [128.244.87.133]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clairseach.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789443280AE4; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:29:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Fioccola Giuseppe , "int-dir@ietf.org" Cc: "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> From: Brian Haberman Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AlhPkKesosIBDv44KpfpGHE1fpfqhVrhF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-dir] R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:29:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AlhPkKesosIBDv44KpfpGHE1fpfqhVrhF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="9RhMxrxCMQXGdWiRdbK0O3Bww9EWgeiaG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Brian Haberman To: Fioccola Giuseppe , "int-dir@ietf.org" Cc: "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> --9RhMxrxCMQXGdWiRdbK0O3Bww9EWgeiaG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Giuseppe, I am fine with your proposed changes, but I would recommend that you wait until the AD or doc shepherd indicate that the changes be made. Regards, Brian On 9/19/17 8:22 AM, Fioccola Giuseppe wrote: > Hi Brian, > Thanks for your valuable review of the document. > Please see my answers inline tagged as [GF]. >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Giuseppe >=20 > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: Brian Haberman [mailto:brian@innovationslab.net]=20 > Inviato: luned=C3=AC 18 settembre 2017 16:40 > A: int-dir@ietf.org > Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org= > Oggetto: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 >=20 > Reviewer: Brian Haberman > Review result: Ready with Nits >=20 > * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. How= ever, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original individual= draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the WG draft.= >=20 > [GF]: If needed we can renew the IPR declaration to refer to the WG dra= ft. >=20 > * The introduction says that this technique is needed to help monitor t= ime & loss sensitive traffic. That would seem to indicate a need to assoc= iate these counters with individual flows. Has anyone done any calculatio= ns on how these counters will scale? Section 5 seems to indicate that the= re were only a few number of counters implemented via ACLs. >=20 > [GF]: It is important to say that you can select the flow to monitor in= several ways. In general a flow can be defined by a set of selection rul= es (e.g. headers fields) used to match a subset of the packets. In this w= ay it is possible to control the number of involved nodes, the paths foll= owed by the packets and the size of the flows. That is a general consider= ation.=20 > In practice, as an example, the Telecom Italia experiment has been appl= ied to the BackHauling traffic implemented with a VPN MPLS and we conside= r a flow as all the packets sharing the same source IP address or the sam= e destination IP address, depending on the direction. It has been impleme= nted by using router capabilities, so we developed scripts for the automa= tion, policies for marking and ACLs for counting. Our implementation scal= e up to 500 flows monitored together on Cisco 7609 router, 1000 IPv4 and = 1000 IPv6 flows on Cisco ASR9000. We have also an experimental implementa= tion on dedicated HW that scales more. If you agree I can add more inform= ation in Section 5. >=20 > * The draft sets out to develop this technique without augmenting packe= t formats. That makes the statement in section 3.1.1 about how to color p= ackets is out of scope a bit disingenuous. I would have preferred a brief= description of the few available options on coloring packets in this sec= tion. >=20 > [GF]: This sentence may be useful to open the door to future implementa= tion. Section 5 explains the examples of implementation we have for now. = But, of course, we can add a reference to section 5 in section 3.1.1. >=20 > * The mention of maintaining timestamps for delay measurements is under= -specified. Would the 32-bit NTP timestamp format be sufficient? The 64-b= it NTP timestamp format? Guidance on how to carry out experimentation wit= h this approach seems useful. Does the concept of adding timestamps per c= olor block conflict with the first bullet of section 7 (only uses feature= s already available on routers)? >=20 > [GF]: the first bullet of section 7 means that a basic "homemade" imple= mentation of the method can be possible by using features already availab= le on routers: policy for marking, ACL for counting and Netflow to obtain= timestamps of first/last packets of a batch. But in general we hope to h= ave an optimized implementation that, as you point out, makes this senten= ce not true. So I propose to modify the sentence in the first bullet of s= ection 7.=20 > Regarding timestamps we can say that all the timestamp formats are allo= wed, because it's managed out-of-band. The format (NTP or PTP) depends on= the precision you want. >=20 > * If the above statement on per-flow counters is not true, can I not ac= complish the same capability by harvesting ifMib stats per interface and = compare xmit/recv/drop stats across the network? >=20 > [GF]: Yes you can do that but it is not so precise because you cannot k= now that nodes you are comparing are referring to exactly the same time i= nterval and exactly the same packets. The great advantage of alternate ma= rking method is that it solves these synchronization issues creating pack= et batches. >=20 > * The description of the Telecom Italia experiment references a 5-minut= e window per color. For time sensitive traffic like IPTV, how useful was = the 5-minute reporting window? Were corrective actions taken prior to cal= ls being handled by support? >=20 > [GF]: The choice of 5 minutes period has been made to make it coherent = with the reporting window of our NMS. We use a threshold for the packet l= oss rate in 5 minutes that originates alarms for the Operation department= =2E Another reason is that long windows simplify our "homemade" implement= ation. For example the Huawei implementation (section 5.2) uses very shor= t windows (seconds). >=20 > * The Telecom Italia experiment writeup does not mention how the counte= rs were harvested from the routers. Were readily available tools used to = do this? >=20 > [GF]: Our scripts on board of the router collect the counters of the fl= ows under monitoring and then send them out to the NMS that will make pac= ket loss calculation. The tools have been developed in our NMS developmen= t team. Also Huawei developed this features in its network management too= l. >=20 >=20 > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivant= e dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qua= lora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente preg= ati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua= distruzione, Grazie.=20 >=20 > This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privile= ged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copyin= g, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the in= tended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advi= se the sender by return e-mail, Thanks.=20 >=20 > Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necessario.= >=20 --9RhMxrxCMQXGdWiRdbK0O3Bww9EWgeiaG-- --AlhPkKesosIBDv44KpfpGHE1fpfqhVrhF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZwnstAAoJEGjWPJxT0YthD/QP/0fHHOKjcRuyyoYB2sGfjl+9 WEFEqbBuJF14efnPCnZltEkH+Vf+v6Bwl+pbyNiwHCf5WkLO21RkvZ1Y4DdjSN38 mRdrotxr9M6XlnyMWZg4mWvP1Yu5y3hPXevx72YnMiDC6xxFR5Y4dwl5zZN+HC7z 9WpgSQpMug+65KnzaGcf+54A7gvy6sh0UgztiULx/gpYuabFICsWS5TuSVyUE7qX 9hVOqiVnWYupQ3vttPHZhcQW0e/aUrmtOICPGPMj/EECtHsbqtbn8BxHCvv5H8K/ r+sRWfvkTCOFhHwUIt3DiVSjZTJJhU20gi91Crize8NrK9odqH3JlQTa23T7p1nO 5BpArO6ttZzfLp9dObtg0DVMcvPa6SH+ywvskiiNHNmPrJpJR2GfLGqVtUdrAiHA Bb0Y6nFkPrCVL3rStAg21IUb1Rr0qGPeCkauRplqP90/VSa6BweeUbONZiaf9snZ awqsRbs5aXzF4SvvZXrUv4wpqaNPMQf79u0xlDeleYB6E/SeNpxagiHeI9sgM92y bxrWOnNMWqM4cR/d5z5ZE9Tb2boBsxb++sjN3TprvHEjowQdxo5gsLP1w0IJNEFs Uf6CuxRcqgVRtLPa5yZa1qgUkT8X23a7fyksJAERG0aq/K9L00ZWglSgLnBdhoWd ps6UGIVbF4V3yNYGjrmW =fScv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AlhPkKesosIBDv44KpfpGHE1fpfqhVrhF-- From nobody Wed Sep 20 07:50:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5EF13219B; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:50:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nlb-LjbxOphu; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.telecomitalia.it (mx04.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14DA413214D; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97918-801ff70000000b80-d4-59c2803aad8e Received: from TELMBXA02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.26]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx04.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 2C.A1.02944.A3082C95; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 16:50:34 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Brian Haberman , "int-dir@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 Thread-Index: AQHTMIwTgHBPtLv/Ek+KH+KOT06DRKK8HPNQgAGaAgCAACcnEA== Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:50:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.231] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHSteq4VCkQc8RZYuZPf8YLWbdbmS3 eLZxPovFoyvdLBY9D94xO7B6LFnyk8lj5vEvLAFMUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZ9zc2she88Kh4 2yjawPjDrYuRk0NCwERixbzTzF2MXBxCAlOZJF6c72AGSbAJ2EgcfHWCDcQWEQiT2P6tC6yI WWAmo0Tztj2sIAlhAVeJR0cPMUEUuUv8Wt3KDGE7SbybdQKshkVAVWJxQyM7iM0rECjxYMIm FohtJxglFt7eAlTEwcEp4CaxtjUGpIZRQFZiwu5FjCA2s4C4xIvpJ9ghLhWQWLLnPDOELSrx 8vE/VgjbQGLr0n0sELaiRPfRXqgaGYmFRyaDjWcW0JRYv0sfYqSixJTuh1DnCEqcnPmEZQKj 2Cwk22YhdMxC0jELSccCRpZVjKK5FQYmeiWpOanJ+bmZJYk5mYl6mSWbGIGRdXNlpcQOxu61 zocYBTgYlXh41yUejBRiTSwrrsw9xCjBwawkwru28lCkEG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYl cd7d9UApgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYLBMHp1QD49zNiW3znsVP3r0kW7X0+5I1K0+lK3+4OOX0fGeu 3nk+1RuE/obe3yi9Ijf2Ws0xGbn5Rxk83wXnvJ/Qvijm2O+/fJV3PZLjcn//+lkWdddW2PmU n9azD1PjJ7+Vkb/kHq6y7ttCRcYfIkyFy28ZFRk4Sws1ZQvwbLH1TpssPHny4eCVriK8Dkos xRmJhlrMRcWJAKTLla+oAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Int-dir] R: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." 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c2UgYnkgYW55Ym9keSBlbHNlIGlzIHVuYXV0aG9yaXNlZC4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBub3QgdGhlIGlu dGVuZGVkIHJlY2lwaWVudCwgcGxlYXNlIGRlbGV0ZSB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIGFueSBhdHRh Y2htZW50cyBhbmQgYWR2aXNlIHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgYnkgcmV0dXJuIGUtbWFpbCwgVGhhbmtzLiAN Cj4gDQo+IFJpc3BldHRhIGwnYW1iaWVudGUuIE5vbiBzdGFtcGFyZSBxdWVzdGEgbWFpbCBzZSBu b24gw6ggbmVjZXNzYXJpby4NCj4gDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Sep 20 08:16:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF9C1331C2; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:16:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cOPljyvZCyXI; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com (mail-yw0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B646A1321A0; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id i6so2113914ywc.9; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:16:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Hc1K6hRQugMTkGMEG9Aofi07HTZcyHIaZqivx5yDX4s=; b=Z2eEjfY4nclbAow+8Q8SId3M4H/oEOMdoxL+spqgaVkouqB3y0wIFu+Li2AKlt0AgG aE4k09fd4PjBjK3ZxKz950Jte0YjpMBhfdvV9/KtWC9q9nQIi5YsoSVoSyBhTrgfvaD1 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AOwi7QBDKzioZzlYItT0Cj6UBqG4mtPfFsX+8KGcxOnqa10RKGmTQTXdMD9BsoBm80WVpf+nVl79t3BGJl7LQnQWdNE= X-Received: by 10.13.219.138 with SMTP id d132mr4202861ywe.204.1505920564680; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:16:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.2.71 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:16:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:16:04 -0500 Message-ID: To: Fioccola Giuseppe Cc: Brian Haberman , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114fa85c5162cf0559a07442" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-dir] R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:16:09 -0000 --001a114fa85c5162cf0559a07442 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just on the mechanics - On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Fioccola Giuseppe < giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it> wrote: > Hi Brian, > Ok, Thank you! > > Giuseppe > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: Brian Haberman [mailto:brian@innovationslab.net] > Inviato: mercoled=C3=AC 20 settembre 2017 16:29 > A: Fioccola Giuseppe; int-dir@ietf.org > Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org > Oggetto: Re: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 > > Hi Giuseppe, > I am fine with your proposed changes, but I would recommend that you > wait until the AD or doc shepherd indicate that the changes be made. > Giuseppe has responded to his reviewer with proposed text changes, and (even better) has feedback from his reviewer. That's what matters most. Submitting an update at that point is often harmless, but risks getting feedback from other reviewers, and from the IESG, that touches the same text, so then the editor is left to mix everything together and have a coherent update come out. Even worse, it can happen that you get different ADs balloting on different versions of the draft and providing comments that other ADs have to analyze when balloting. So, waiting for the telechat, and submitting one update that addresses the comments received, is fine with me. Other ADs might have other preferences for a specific draft, but since this one's mine, let's go with my opinion for now :D ... Spencer > > Regards, > Brian > > > On 9/19/17 8:22 AM, Fioccola Giuseppe wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > Thanks for your valuable review of the document. > > Please see my answers inline tagged as [GF]. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Giuseppe > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > Da: Brian Haberman [mailto:brian@innovationslab.net] > > Inviato: luned=C3=AC 18 settembre 2017 16:40 > > A: int-dir@ietf.org > > Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; > > ippm@ietf.org > > Oggetto: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 > > > > Reviewer: Brian Haberman > > Review result: Ready with Nits > > > > * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. > However, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original > individual draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the > WG draft. > > > > [GF]: If needed we can renew the IPR declaration to refer to the WG > draft. > > > > * The introduction says that this technique is needed to help monitor > time & loss sensitive traffic. That would seem to indicate a need to > associate these counters with individual flows. Has anyone done any > calculations on how these counters will scale? Section 5 seems to indicat= e > that there were only a few number of counters implemented via ACLs. > > > > [GF]: It is important to say that you can select the flow to monitor in > several ways. In general a flow can be defined by a set of selection rule= s > (e.g. headers fields) used to match a subset of the packets. In this way = it > is possible to control the number of involved nodes, the paths followed b= y > the packets and the size of the flows. That is a general consideration. > > In practice, as an example, the Telecom Italia experiment has been > applied to the BackHauling traffic implemented with a VPN MPLS and we > consider a flow as all the packets sharing the same source IP address or > the same destination IP address, depending on the direction. It has been > implemented by using router capabilities, so we developed scripts for the > automation, policies for marking and ACLs for counting. Our implementatio= n > scale up to 500 flows monitored together on Cisco 7609 router, 1000 IPv4 > and 1000 IPv6 flows on Cisco ASR9000. We have also an experimental > implementation on dedicated HW that scales more. If you agree I can add > more information in Section 5. > > > > * The draft sets out to develop this technique without augmenting packe= t > formats. That makes the statement in section 3.1.1 about how to color > packets is out of scope a bit disingenuous. I would have preferred a brie= f > description of the few available options on coloring packets in this > section. > > > > [GF]: This sentence may be useful to open the door to future > implementation. Section 5 explains the examples of implementation we have > for now. But, of course, we can add a reference to section 5 in section > 3.1.1. > > > > * The mention of maintaining timestamps for delay measurements is > under-specified. Would the 32-bit NTP timestamp format be sufficient? The > 64-bit NTP timestamp format? Guidance on how to carry out experimentation > with this approach seems useful. Does the concept of adding timestamps pe= r > color block conflict with the first bullet of section 7 (only uses featur= es > already available on routers)? > > > > [GF]: the first bullet of section 7 means that a basic "homemade" > implementation of the method can be possible by using features already > available on routers: policy for marking, ACL for counting and Netflow to > obtain timestamps of first/last packets of a batch. But in general we hop= e > to have an optimized implementation that, as you point out, makes this > sentence not true. So I propose to modify the sentence in the first bulle= t > of section 7. > > Regarding timestamps we can say that all the timestamp formats are > allowed, because it's managed out-of-band. The format (NTP or PTP) depend= s > on the precision you want. > > > > * If the above statement on per-flow counters is not true, can I not > accomplish the same capability by harvesting ifMib stats per interface an= d > compare xmit/recv/drop stats across the network? > > > > [GF]: Yes you can do that but it is not so precise because you cannot > know that nodes you are comparing are referring to exactly the same time > interval and exactly the same packets. The great advantage of alternate > marking method is that it solves these synchronization issues creating > packet batches. > > > > * The description of the Telecom Italia experiment references a 5-minut= e > window per color. For time sensitive traffic like IPTV, how useful was th= e > 5-minute reporting window? Were corrective actions taken prior to calls > being handled by support? > > > > [GF]: The choice of 5 minutes period has been made to make it coherent > with the reporting window of our NMS. We use a threshold for the packet > loss rate in 5 minutes that originates alarms for the Operation departmen= t. > Another reason is that long windows simplify our "homemade" implementatio= n. > For example the Huawei implementation (section 5.2) uses very short windo= ws > (seconds). > > > > * The Telecom Italia experiment writeup does not mention how the > counters were harvested from the routers. Were readily available tools us= ed > to do this? > > > > [GF]: Our scripts on board of the router collect the counters of the > flows under monitoring and then send them out to the NMS that will make > packet loss calculation. The tools have been developed in our NMS > development team. Also Huawei developed this features in its network > management tool. > > > > > > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle > persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante > dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualo= ra > abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati d= i > darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua > distruzione, Grazie. > > > > This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain > privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, > copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not > the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments an= d > advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. > > > > Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necessario. > > > > --001a114fa85c5162cf0559a07442 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just on the mechanics -=C2=A0
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Fioccola Gius= eppe <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it> w= rote:
Hi Brian,
Ok, Thank you!

Giuseppe

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Brian Haberman [mailto:bria= n@innovationslab.net]
Inviato: mercoled=C3=AC 20 settembre 2017 16:29
A: Fioccola Giuseppe; int-dir@ietf.org<= /a>
Cc: draft-ietf-ipp= m-alt-mark.all@ietf.org; ietf@iet= f.org; ippm@ietf.org
Oggetto: Re: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10

Hi Giuseppe,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am fine with your proposed changes, but I would recom= mend that you wait until the AD or doc shepherd indicate that the changes b= e made.

Giuseppe has respon= ded to his reviewer with proposed text changes, and (even better) has feedb= ack from his reviewer.

That's what matters mos= t. Submitting an update at that point is often harmless, but risks getting = feedback from other reviewers, and from the IESG, that touches the same tex= t, so then the editor is left to mix everything together and have a coheren= t update come out. Even worse, it can happen that you get different ADs bal= loting on different versions of the draft and providing comments that other= ADs have to analyze when balloting. So, waiting for the telechat, and subm= itting one update that addresses the comments received, is fine with me.

Other ADs might have other preferences for a specifi= c draft, but since this one's mine, let's go with my opinion for no= w :D ...

Spencer
=C2=A0

Regards,
Brian


On 9/19/17 8:22 AM, Fioccola Giuseppe wrote:
> Hi Brian,
> Thanks for your valuable review of the document.
> Please see my answers inline tagged as [GF].
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Giuseppe
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Brian Haberman [mailto:brian@innovationslab.net]
> Inviato: luned=C3=AC 18 settembre 2017 16:40
> A: int-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-iet= f-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org; iet= f@ietf.org;
> ippm@ietf.org
> Oggetto: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10
>
> Reviewer: Brian Haberman
> Review result: Ready with Nits
>
> * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. Ho= wever, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original individual = draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the WG draft. >
> [GF]: If needed we can renew the IPR declaration to refer to the WG dr= aft.
>
> * The introduction says that this technique is needed to help monitor = time & loss sensitive traffic. That would seem to indicate a need to as= sociate these counters with individual flows. Has anyone done any calculati= ons on how these counters will scale? Section 5 seems to indicate that ther= e were only a few number of counters implemented via ACLs.
>
> [GF]: It is important to say that you can select the flow to monitor i= n several ways. In general a flow can be defined by a set of selection rule= s (e.g. headers fields) used to match a subset of the packets. In this way = it is possible to control the number of involved nodes, the paths followed = by the packets and the size of the flows. That is a general consideration.<= br> > In practice, as an example, the Telecom Italia experiment has been app= lied to the BackHauling traffic implemented with a VPN MPLS and we consider= a flow as all the packets sharing the same source IP address or the same d= estination IP address, depending on the direction. It has been implemented = by using router capabilities, so we developed scripts for the automation, p= olicies for marking and ACLs for counting. Our implementation scale up to 5= 00 flows monitored together on Cisco 7609 router, 1000 IPv4 and 1000 IPv6 f= lows on Cisco ASR9000. We have also an experimental implementation on dedic= ated HW that scales more. If you agree I can add more information in Sectio= n 5.
>
> * The draft sets out to develop this technique without augmenting pack= et formats. That makes the statement in section 3.1.1 about how to color pa= ckets is out of scope a bit disingenuous. I would have preferred a brief de= scription of the few available options on coloring packets in this section.=
>
> [GF]: This sentence may be useful to open the door to future implement= ation. Section 5 explains the examples of implementation we have for now. B= ut, of course, we can add a reference to section 5 in section 3.1.1.
>
> * The mention of maintaining timestamps for delay measurements is unde= r-specified. Would the 32-bit NTP timestamp format be sufficient? The 64-bi= t NTP timestamp format? Guidance on how to carry out experimentation with t= his approach seems useful. Does the concept of adding timestamps per color = block conflict with the first bullet of section 7 (only uses features alrea= dy available on routers)?
>
> [GF]: the first bullet of section 7 means that a basic "homemade&= quot; implementation of the method can be possible by using features alread= y available on routers: policy for marking, ACL for counting and Netflow to= obtain timestamps of first/last packets of a batch. But in general we hope= to have an optimized implementation that, as you point out, makes this sen= tence not true. So I propose to modify the sentence in the first bullet of = section 7.
> Regarding timestamps we can say that all the timestamp formats are all= owed, because it's managed out-of-band. The format (NTP or PTP) depends= on the precision you want.
>
> * If the above statement on per-flow counters is not true, can I not a= ccomplish the same capability by harvesting ifMib stats per interface and c= ompare xmit/recv/drop stats across the network?
>
> [GF]: Yes you can do that but it is not so precise because you cannot = know that nodes you are comparing are referring to exactly the same time in= terval and exactly the same packets. The great advantage of alternate marki= ng method is that it solves these synchronization issues creating packet ba= tches.
>
> * The description of the Telecom Italia experiment references a 5-minu= te window per color. For time sensitive traffic like IPTV, how useful was t= he 5-minute reporting window? Were corrective actions taken prior to calls = being handled by support?
>
> [GF]: The choice of 5 minutes period has been made to make it coherent= with the reporting window of our NMS. We use a threshold for the packet lo= ss rate in 5 minutes that originates alarms for the Operation department. A= nother reason is that long windows simplify our "homemade" implem= entation. For example the Huawei implementation (section 5.2) uses very sho= rt windows (seconds).
>
> * The Telecom Italia experiment writeup does not mention how the count= ers were harvested from the routers. Were readily available tools used to d= o this?
>
> [GF]: Our scripts on board of the router collect the counters of the f= lows under monitoring and then send them out to the NMS that will make pack= et loss calculation. The tools have been developed in our NMS development t= eam. Also Huawei developed this features in its network management tool. >
>
> Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente all= e persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante= dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualor= a abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati d= i darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distru= zione, Grazie.
>
> This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privil= eged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying= , printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the inten= ded recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise th= e sender by return e-mail, Thanks.
>
> Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necess= ario.
>


--001a114fa85c5162cf0559a07442-- From nobody Wed Sep 20 08:29:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791DE13301F; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:29:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zuqv8iB0ne3s; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx02.telecomitalia.it (mx02.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF01D1321A0; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:29:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97916-d25ff700000002cc-18-59c289585920 Received: from TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.27]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx02.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 97.05.00716.85982C95; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 17:29:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF CC: Brian Haberman , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 Thread-Index: AQHTMIwTgHBPtLv/Ek+KH+KOT06DRKK8HPNQgAGaAgCAACcnEP//5gQAgAAiFsA= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:29:27 +0000 Message-ID: <6187f96f282043b38253901e0ca12d4b@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.231] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6187f96f282043b38253901e0ca12d4bTELMBXB02RM001telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHWjei81Ckwdp/rBYze/4xWsy63chu 8WzjfBaLR1e6WSx6Hrxjtlg2ZQ+zA5vHzll32T2WLPnJ5DHz+BeWAOYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsE roxXaw0LVr1jrDjwYhlrA2PHC8YuRk4OCQETiYkn7jB3MXJxCAlMZZI4+eMCWIJNwEbi4KsT bCC2iIC1xJa+TjCbWeAto0TrqVwQW1jAVeLR0UNMEDXuEr9WtzJD2H4Shz8uB4uzCKhK3Fxx D6yXVyBQYtK0M6wQy64zSez9vglsGSdQovHNdlYQm1FAVmLC7kWMEMvEJV5MP8EOcamAxJI9 55khbFGJl4//sULYBhJbl+5jgbAVJbqP9kLVyEgsPDKZFWJOvsSEU2+ZIY4QlDg58wnLBEbR WUhWzEJSNgtJ2SxGDqC4psT6XfoQJYoSU7ofQpVrSLTOmcuOLL6AkX0Vo2huhYGRXklqTmpy fm5mSWJOZqJeZskmRmCM3lxZKbaDsXWt8yFGAQ5GJR7ewPiDkUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeNdW HooU4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzqvXBJQSSE8sSc1OTS1ILYLJMnFwSjUwTrmZPX3D q+7NaY86N6vWqV/kfLrDwpR91ZO55h6Calludd1Wx5ynVx3V1pnfOe/GmQN3QufdPfDhxJ+D KnZvUg/1samKNCaXTCn9scw3XPLWXf207ww3J0kfNmXY0ln9/stVvprTjxZHVJ3wd+W4G7Hy h27JthDmuacdRfiuNxeEP1SzVWsVVmIpzkg01GIuKk4EADpJQMXNAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Int-dir] R: R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E423D134307; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x7qf1DFzmNuB; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uillean.fuaim.com (uillean.fuaim.com [206.197.161.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C7E8134219; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clairseach.fuaim.com (clairseach-high.fuaim.com [206.197.161.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uillean.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759A9880ED; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clemson.local (swifi-nat.jhuapl.edu [128.244.87.133]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clairseach.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17883280AE4; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:21:43 -0700 (PDT) To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Fioccola Giuseppe , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> From: Brian Haberman Message-ID: <060ba31b-6494-99b7-8f9d-ecf87e805993@innovationslab.net> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:21:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="P511X0rp7pQniQT7dAxUGjoM2U2Rj9iBD" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-dir] Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 19:21:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --P511X0rp7pQniQT7dAxUGjoM2U2Rj9iBD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Q2ij2HaugrnWkQLRsC3pPrtrDFn2BnFvD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Brian Haberman To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Fioccola Giuseppe , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Message-ID: <060ba31b-6494-99b7-8f9d-ecf87e805993@innovationslab.net> Subject: Re: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> --Q2ij2HaugrnWkQLRsC3pPrtrDFn2BnFvD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carlos, On 9/20/17 3:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: >> * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. Ho= wever, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original individua= l draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the WG draft= =2E >> >> [GF]: If needed we can renew the IPR declaration to refer to the WG dr= aft. >> >=20 > It might not hurt, but at the same time, a question: >=20 > RFC 8179 S 5.4.2 talks about inheritance of IPR disclosures: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8179#section-5.4.2 >=20 > IPR > disclosures against a particular Contribution are assumed to be > inherited by revisions of the Contribution and by any RFCs that > are published from the Contribution unless the disclosure has bee= n > updated or withdrawn. >=20 > It is not clear if a =E2=80=9Crevision=E2=80=9D of an I-D as a contribu= tion includes renaming it as WG document, merges, etc. >=20 > The data tracker tooling seems to be coded such that, if there is a Rep= laced_by relationship, the IPR declaration follows: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3Ddraft-ietf= -ippm-alt-mark > =E2=80=9CTotal number of IPR disclosures found: 1." >=20 > And contributors all acknowledged IPR 2557. >=20 > So the question: >=20 >> * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. Ho= wever, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original individua= l draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the WG draft= =2E >=20 >=20 > Does it carry forward? I think the answer is "sort of"... If I look at the datatracker page for the WG, I do see 2557 listed against the WG draft here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ippm/documents/ However, I do not see that declaration when looking at the HTML'ized version of the draft here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 while I do see it listed against the original individual submission here:= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tempia-ippm-p3m-03 The IPR search page does show the indirect disclosure based on the individual submission. So, it looks like an issue in the HTML rendering of the WG draft. Regards, Brian --Q2ij2HaugrnWkQLRsC3pPrtrDFn2BnFvD-- --P511X0rp7pQniQT7dAxUGjoM2U2Rj9iBD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZwr/GAAoJEGjWPJxT0YthtGMP/jb6jBN/e8INoLRxzFTlZ6k9 c6Rog+qPGnu1w1rYOONhis7fFeqLbsEYdQGgN5RB88k7No0cQIXS6nk8uxaZxsVp oeQRpLNuFMx6XdhDmtW0Zx7BSi5bIlaJaEN0LQXci8gQLwc3Edn0bKu88sMnAkX7 WgE/OYHtZgs/cHi9BSxdEhZ07h6RgvId79EmKVmfnIyg9UTwV7rr69APeb8J+KVR kJW7eig7PiVvxaK6a+MOHtUKupIPVHu2e3pUVyDc0+M7l0cbdglh5/ZAXnCpW6CR yP1nsFz5KQmhZ5G0kObM+oFMX4nxcy08e0VoE7rfHd9Bk9UeRddoXx6hDihHZ+vo liumXPTzavCUeKcPrB+3rtukoGRUtlMLJhWBwBHPzODXnwGPMhxhZvARFuivjyRJ FI7mhacohc2mARBSkU01wVGWmn0NWEs8Lr2Yc+ouyW8iE3HPL1AivPzquXegeKCa 6CmO50zUnuAsW9oEEjMWW3xc3LDqV/GYgrddVeJnQOYtx1/5Bcddy3yx/+csjThN iydoNdjOSGuHLkm7gGzW1zJYYhmiVZbngCPYDCf49g2DFhUSa8W7AwFY0LEDL0P/ 1k/2sno8MDYms+YZ/5+lb297va3ibu9BXYtAgE9eM+uuuJHGz7qM3zaHFm/gdjWn dou6PwQuhFlJUQtEvOMc =V2vE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --P511X0rp7pQniQT7dAxUGjoM2U2Rj9iBD-- From nobody Wed Sep 20 12:34:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9553134323; 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20 Sep 2017 19:27:17 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-017.cisco.com (xch-rtp-017.cisco.com [64.101.220.157]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v8KJRHeN010967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 20 Sep 2017 19:27:17 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-017.cisco.com (64.101.220.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:27:17 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:27:17 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Brian Haberman CC: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Fioccola Giuseppe , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 Thread-Index: AQHTMkRA7kKteyZT20u226jIRM5Gb6K+ad8AgAABkoA= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 19:27:16 +0000 Message-ID: <70909BB4-7E74-482C-9267-C94EA79A4F86@cisco.com> References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> <060ba31b-6494-99b7-8f9d-ecf87e805993@innovationslab.net> In-Reply-To: <060ba31b-6494-99b7-8f9d-ecf87e805993@innovationslab.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.133] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUitJU7Kq5OxqQfUbG/lzyHTYVTmQqQvGpD4PjqezEirq53oRiih w4B8CJoiJ86UuOP+jnZvSgStP/kIXxbAL8ZHe4Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QDRI4Yu7+LFrloneJ2x126XYl6eFlEYqHFmJfXOOdJp/1KeBX8xN/6FwI0syw3H9kvFQ1dWQy4l1zRy2DdmFoo= X-Received: by 10.37.186.197 with SMTP id a5mr75692ybk.39.1505943541808; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.2.71 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <70909BB4-7E74-482C-9267-C94EA79A4F86@cisco.com> References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> <060ba31b-6494-99b7-8f9d-ecf87e805993@innovationslab.net> <70909BB4-7E74-482C-9267-C94EA79A4F86@cisco.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 16:39:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: Brian Haberman , Fioccola Giuseppe , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043df198dc875b0559a5cdad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-dir] Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 21:39:06 -0000 --f403043df198dc875b0559a5cdad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Carlos and Brian, On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi, Brian, > > On Sep 20, 2017, at 3:21 PM, Brian Haberman > wrote: > > Hi Carlos, > > On 9/20/17 3:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > > * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. > However, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original > individual draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the > WG draft. > > [GF]: If needed we can renew the IPR declaration to refer to the WG draft= . > > > It might not hurt, but at the same time, a question: > > RFC 8179 S 5.4.2 talks about inheritance of IPR disclosures: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8179#section-5.4.2 > > IPR > disclosures against a particular Contribution are assumed to be > inherited by revisions of the Contribution and by any RFCs that > are published from the Contribution unless the disclosure has been > updated or withdrawn. > > It is not clear if a =E2=80=9Crevision=E2=80=9D of an I-D as a contributi= on includes > renaming it as WG document, merges, etc. > > The data tracker tooling seems to be coded such that, if there is a > Replaced_by relationship, the IPR declaration follows: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3D > draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark > =E2=80=9CTotal number of IPR disclosures found: 1." > > And contributors all acknowledged IPR 2557. > > So the question: > > * The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relation to this draft. > However, the IPR declaration is only associated with the original > individual draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refer to the > WG draft. > > > > Does it carry forward? > > > I think the answer is "sort of"... > > If I look at the datatracker page for the WG, I do see 2557 listed > against the WG draft here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ippm/documents/ > > However, I do not see that declaration when looking at the HTML'ized > version of the draft here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 > > > Although it is listed against the document at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/ > (See right underneath IANA a highlighted =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D) > > And I=E2=80=99d assume the datatracker as a more authoritative rendering. > > > while I do see it listed against the original individual submission here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tempia-ippm-p3m-03 > > The IPR search page does show the indirect disclosure based on the > individual submission. > > So, it looks like an issue in the HTML rendering of the WG draft. > > > Thank you for checking. > Yes, thank you for that. > In any case, I appreciate your initial point and I believe being explicit > and update the declaration is the way to go. > Clarity is never wrong, but it's also worth Spencer asking the IESG if they know about this (in)consistency, I'll let you know what I find out. Spencer, who has to do SOMETHING around here to be helpful :-) > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94 Carlos. > > Regards, > Brian > > > > --f403043df198dc875b0559a5cdad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Carlos and Brian,

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpi= gnata) <cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi, Brian,

On Sep 20, 2017, at 3:21 PM, Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net> wr= ote:

Hi Carlos,

On 9/20/17 3:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:

* The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relat= ion to this draft. However, the IPR declaration is only associated with the= original individual draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refe= r to the WG draft.

[GF]: If needed we can renew the IPR declaration to refer to the WG draft.<= br>

It might not hurt, but at the same time, a question:

RFC 8179 S 5.4.2 talks about inheritance of IPR disclosures:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8179#section-5.4.2

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IPR
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0disclosures against a particular Contribution= are assumed to be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0inherited by revisions of the Contribution an= d by any RFCs that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0are published from the Contribution unless th= e disclosure has been
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0updated or withdrawn.

It is not clear if a =E2=80=9Crevision=E2=80=9D of an I-D as a contribution= includes renaming it as WG document, merges, etc.

The data tracker tooling seems to be coded such that, if there is a Replace= d_by relationship, the IPR declaration follows:
https://datatracker.ietf.org= /ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark=
=E2=80=9CTotal number of IPR disclosures found: 1."

And contributors all acknowledged IPR 2557.

So the question:

* The shepherd writeup mentions IPR 2557 in relat= ion to this draft. However, the IPR declaration is only associated with the= original individual draft. The IPR declaration needs to be updated to refe= r to the WG draft.


Does it carry forward?

I think the answer is "sort of"...

If I look at the datatracker page for the WG, I do see 2557 listed
against the WG draft here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ippm/documents/

However, I do not see that declaration when looking at the HTML'ized version of the draft here:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10

(See right underneath IANA a highlighted =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D)

And I=E2=80=99d assume the datatracker as a more authoritative renderi= ng.


while I do see it listed against the original individual submission here:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tempia-ippm-p3m-03

The IPR search page does show the indirect disclosure based on the
individual submission.

So, it looks like an issue in the HTML rendering of the WG draft.


Thank you for checking.
Yes, thank you for that.
=C2=A0
In any case, I= appreciate your initial point and I believe being explicit and update the = declaration is the way to go.

=
Clarity is never wrong, but it's also worth Spencer asking the IES= G if they know about this (in)consistency,

I'l= l let you know what I find out.

Spencer, who has t= o do SOMETHING around here to be helpful :-)
=C2=A0

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

Regards,
Brian




--f403043df198dc875b0559a5cdad-- From nobody Thu Sep 21 02:59:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C1E13478E; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 02:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VL5UEjFneFHz; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 02:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx02.telecomitalia.it (mx02.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BE37134798; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 02:59:18 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97916-d25ff700000002cc-bd-59c38d74312e Received: from TELMBXA02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.26]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx02.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 91.EC.00716.47D83C95; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:59:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" CC: Brian Haberman , "int-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 Thread-Index: AQHTMkQ7+QOmj5z0CEa4EEnppY17maK+BUoAgAABlQCAACTQgIAA7eDw Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:59:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150574562717.15655.17755871925264723529@ietfa.amsl.com> <25fa600863494417bf02e3f1416cb010@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> <84FCE76E-08EC-49C5-BEA1-E556B26D60F5@cisco.com> <060ba31b-6494-99b7-8f9d-ecf87e805993@innovationslab.net> <70909BB4-7E74-482C-9267-C94EA79A4F86@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.241] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_f69b2d68914c494fb0844bc6acdef7adTELMBXB02RM001telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrDKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHSre093CkwXsei5k9/xgtPr3bwWIx 63Yju8WzjfNZLB5d6Wax6Hnwjtli2ZQ9zA7sHlN+b2T12DnrLrvHkiU/mTxmHv/CEsAS1cBo k5iXl1+SWJKqkJJanGyr5JJZnJyTmJmbWqQQkpqTmpyfq6SQmWKrZKykUJCTmJyam5pXYquU WFCQmpeiZMelgAFsgMoy8xRS85LzUzLz0m2VPIP9dS0sTC11DZXsAktTi0vyFXJTi4sT09Mz 8xVSE9YLZmzZuJO9YMcUxordNwwaGPdMYOxi5OSQEDCROLqwk7WLkYtDSGAqk8TbtjlMIAk2 ARuJg69OsIHYIgKFEkd/XwOLMwu8ZZRoPZULYgsLOEk8f9rDCFHjIvHs+UFWCNtN4sPWzcwg NouAqsTJFRPB5vAKBEq0bXzADrHsAIvEzyWzwYZyAiVeb+0Ba2AUkJWYsHsRI8QycYkX00+w Q1wqILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf6wQtoHE1qX7WCBsRYkpz25BxWUkFh6ZzAoxJ1+ieekOFogjBCVO znzCMoFRdBaSFbOQlM1CUjaLkQMorimxfpc+RAnQhu6HUOUaEq1z5rIjiy9gZF/FKJpbYWCk VwKJ2MySxJzMRL3Mkk2MwCR1c2Wl2A7G1rXOhxgFOBiVeHj/RB6OFGJNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTC e7YGKMSbklhZlVqUH19UmpNafIjRBxiSE5mlRJPzgQk0ryTe0MTC0tDYwsLI0MLMFIewkjiv QRnQLIF0YMrLTk0tSC2CGcfEwSnVwKgnteVwf4qBnHWaXhTjk9BnSzZHqCXLMflP1fUpYZc2 u1hucC38uLgrB+fsHZ+5l3hreXDcu7JO2e5Eqtexmbzyx8JTIpdo8arL9XZeyeX2Sp9SMXnJ Pcb+xzcWX5Rj3/L4kvk8V6/YgimphVMl086keaa8nxxhxKF1zNgjItL11rbwi1e6lViKMxIN tZiLihMBYl3Dx38DAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Int-dir] R: Intdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-10 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." 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Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150623836210.5031.17716199391295946656@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 00:32:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-dir] Intdir early review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-04 X-BeenThere: int-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "This list is for discussion between the members of the Internet Area directorate." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 07:32:42 -0000 Reviewer: Carlos Bernardos Review result: Ready with Nits The document is well written and clear to follow. I have not found any major issue. I have some recommendations/questions for the authors: * Page 3: RFC 7919 --> RFC 7819. * It would be good to have a section (maybe an annex) in which authors describe the differences (if any) found in the experiments performed with IPv4 vs IPv6. Since IPv6 does not do broadcast, there may be important differences to highlight. * While I understand that the authors do not provide details about the apps analyzed, it would be good to include more information for example about the distribution of the frequency of broadcast/multicast messages found in the experiments. And it would also be nice (though I don't know if this would be feasible) to provide some recommended values for the frequencies to use (an app developer could benefit from some additional guidelines). * Page 5: "In that respect broadcast can be [...]" --> "In that respect, multicast can be [...]" or "In that respect, broadcast/multicast can be [...]". Note that the examples used are IPv6, so "broadcast" alone would not apply.