From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Wed Sep  4 09:15:44 2013
Return-Path: <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3E321E8127 for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed,  4 Sep 2013 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -101.367
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.987, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, TVD_SPACE_RATIO=2.219, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUi35jlhsZxJ for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed,  4 Sep 2013 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qc0-x22f.google.com (mail-qc0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0804121E80FF for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Wed,  4 Sep 2013 09:15:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id v2so283433qcr.20 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Wed, 04 Sep 2013 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=UXDEs5b6tA2RZnZhRSqt5GZyLQ8eVXiTFccnqsgPsSA=; b=pW7zyGK6bIFZU5TZ4o0A8+bzbwtbN5SWcRB4AgzoyZuAlHhZz/9AwZO29LGuOT2KXL kKF6D+KCZDV2vkHzz7tKZP6nabuBYExV54Q3EoMgN9HiwjUcWOUSZjoMHziWhrioksoL d1am03de6kr2i2Z4uOcsdBZfyRUXEOJAb9m22nZZChMTcKDxiSpv74b7rROOYZekBHxR fiejk5cgzqDT0roy4jBxP/EYNYKL/A9aFKTxgO/KWZo/vK+CzvsCpuAOFgI01FIvRUhk QoYIsos3YbJh2SiGwE5VDAGKB7iziJb7NkVOWYtwcOT6WeG8bGvCmw4kpoaC+nmPSmaC Lyog==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.224.161.76 with SMTP id q12mr2690083qax.92.1378311334130; Wed, 04 Sep 2013 09:15:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.49.71.243 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Sep 2013 09:15:34 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:15:34 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHBDyN7jaCNhDOBQz=X7U-okNwpoF4ajRFa1-kuE8NLAKts=_w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: internetgovtech@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0149528e75fe8d04e5911d35
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 09:23:24 -0700
Subject: [Internetgovtech] Test
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 16:15:44 -0000

--089e0149528e75fe8d04e5911d35
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



--089e0149528e75fe8d04e5911d35
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

<div dir="ltr"><br></div>

--089e0149528e75fe8d04e5911d35--

From bortzmeyer@nic.fr  Thu Sep  5 13:17:48 2013
Return-Path: <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E9921E815B for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu,  5 Sep 2013 13:17:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.6
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSApiYXWkdup for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu,  5 Sep 2013 13:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fece:1902]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF3811E81BB for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Thu,  5 Sep 2013 13:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id C7D9D39FB3; Thu,  5 Sep 2013 20:13:06 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 27B30190913; Thu,  5 Sep 2013 22:10:22 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 22:10:22 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: internetgovtech@iab.org
Message-ID: <20130905201022.GA32284@sources.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Transport: UUCP rules
X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 7.1
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
Subject: [Internetgovtech] Meeting in Vancouver dedicated to secure the Internet?
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 20:17:48 -0000

I'm not 100 % sure it is on-topic, since the list is new. But this
paper contains a clear call to the IETF so I believe it is pertinent:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying

> The Internet Engineering Task Force, the group that defines the
> standards that make the internet run, has a meeting planned for
> early November in Vancouver. This group needs dedicate its next
> meeting to this task [designing a better Internet, safe for
> privacy]. This is an emergency, and demands an emergency response.


From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri Sep  6 13:07:51 2013
Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3403F11E80EE for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:07:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.661
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SwYHH6d6KvXx for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:07:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pd0-x22c.google.com (mail-pd0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7283111E80E7 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pd0-f172.google.com with SMTP id z10so3685812pdj.31 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:07:34 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HHtYlrCwWgW5+EgjN2SoQpNNo4m5wdMUv9H3f3yMALU=; b=GY4qokd4WucyGL+4ugaCf8hh7h4EWmp1zfUDcCc0vFC8Wffc90Pps1y16X7iyaFMyV aB64Pm/irLEf6aCPL7Xx4ZUZwl00AKTN/UV3D2sDzXn2jAcnqyBU3TN/SX1c6L+eZ/JS SsIbrufiidHH/tkbax5Oc8eg22iPCPxY+uWwTOrG+yyw3yOIR5H5yfgPr9kGQZROzNjw JM5yJtzgeW/aTIBIbU8Uq4Ve6X7nRwOyBHFaNA0PRYwqmZ44OlJ157sjyDsgUgnIPM5K YYMeYT9zMojpUsZq13Nu8T833yA0Sqjicxg7txjxb3C/mNesdS0myFpbZXwmc5fq4L96 dpYw==
X-Received: by 10.66.168.7 with SMTP id zs7mr5984071pab.152.1378498054014; Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:07:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.178.20] (139.200.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.200.139]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ry4sm6753568pab.4.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:07:33 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <522A360F.3020301@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:07:43 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
References: <20130905201022.GA32284@sources.org>
In-Reply-To: <20130905201022.GA32284@sources.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] Meeting in Vancouver dedicated to secure the Internet?
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:07:51 -0000

Stephane,

Have a look at what Bruce is *actually* saying, starting at
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_nsa_is_brea.html

He is emphatically not saying that there is a problem with IETF
protocols or with the crypto algorithms we use.

It might be useful for the IAB to give the ISOC a specific
clarification that the issue is about subversion of implementations,
not about standards and protocols. That makes it ISOC business
perhaps, but not IETF business (IMHO).

Regards
   Brian

On 06/09/2013 08:10, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> I'm not 100 % sure it is on-topic, since the list is new. But this
> paper contains a clear call to the IETF so I believe it is pertinent:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
> 
>> The Internet Engineering Task Force, the group that defines the
>> standards that make the internet run, has a meeting planned for
>> early November in Vancouver. This group needs dedicate its next
>> meeting to this task [designing a better Internet, safe for
>> privacy]. This is an emergency, and demands an emergency response.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Internetgovtech mailing list
> Internetgovtech@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech
> 

From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk  Fri Sep  6 13:31:30 2013
Return-Path: <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C310A11E810C for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.781
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.781 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.182, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0++5Avy0S5tG for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854C511E80F9 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r86KVPln021908; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 21:31:25 +0100
X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r86KVPln021908
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=201304; t=1378499485; bh=notEMv3K0KQ8dTVsmdXuOHK4vHg=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=GEcpqrfdSZ5OxQbLQWf5wJNIAnB/DTCavU0Cyxd/Aiwfn85RZPzOSaxlA6wZlwoRR 1PAHvFG92XDKE9bOhI4xAueVP6lEawQDAQ8/LSnK1iq1ivpS6PN6PSzt/lEArFmsWW xqDwCvSl5j29PNm/itZbeZyly/NkPZdIakRaLMQo=
Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p85LVP0544515068V1 ret-id none; Fri, 06 Sep 2013 21:31:25 +0100
Received: from [192.168.1.110] (host213-123-213-183.in-addr.btopenworld.com [213.123.213.183]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r86KU5Gd017648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Sep 2013 21:30:05 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\))
From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: <522A360F.3020301@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 21:30:03 +0100
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <EMEW3|35a3ad57d7a349fdcfe8768cb890f125p85LVP03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|34EAA5DB-05DE-4F09-A74E-F8A53DB9D8BA@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
References: <20130905201022.GA32284@sources.org> <522A360F.3020301@gmail.com> <34EAA5DB-05DE-4F09-A74E-F8A53DB9D8BA@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508)
X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean
X-smtpf-Report: sid=p85LVP054451506800; tid=p85LVP0544515068V1; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=3:0; fails=0
X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information
X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r86KVPln021908
X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk
Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] Meeting in Vancouver dedicated to secure the Internet?
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:31:30 -0000

On 6 Sep 2013, at 21:07, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> Stephane,
>=20
> Have a look at what Bruce is *actually* saying, starting at
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_nsa_is_brea.html
>=20
> He is emphatically not saying that there is a problem with IETF
> protocols or with the crypto algorithms we use.
>=20
> It might be useful for the IAB to give the ISOC a specific
> clarification that the issue is about subversion of implementations,
> not about standards and protocols. That makes it ISOC business
> perhaps, but not IETF business (IMHO).

The IETF protocols are open for all to see, inspect, and verify.  Many =
implementations are not.

Tim

> Regards
>   Brian
>=20
> On 06/09/2013 08:10, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>> I'm not 100 % sure it is on-topic, since the list is new. But this
>> paper contains a clear call to the IETF so I believe it is pertinent:
>>=20
>> =
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-i=
nternet-nsa-spying
>>=20
>>> The Internet Engineering Task Force, the group that defines the
>>> standards that make the internet run, has a meeting planned for
>>> early November in Vancouver. This group needs dedicate its next
>>> meeting to this task [designing a better Internet, safe for
>>> privacy]. This is an emergency, and demands an emergency response.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Internetgovtech mailing list
>> Internetgovtech@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Internetgovtech mailing list
> Internetgovtech@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech


From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri Sep  6 13:53:59 2013
Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F6C21E8054 for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.649
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PftMuGv5gvV9 for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pd0-x236.google.com (mail-pd0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF9921F9BF1 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri,  6 Sep 2013 13:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pd0-f182.google.com with SMTP id r10so3735791pdi.41 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:53:44 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UzAQKf4uIPDeCh1vQLU1x8nZaX5jKv5jWj1+ybHVDZ0=; b=K3Y5nbyZWaVI3AToNOY167fLUKrk5UoLN3EDCNoD4Cm2X0DK+i94F4VNKhBNYj3hf8 jbND08zwcuQSy4NN1DxVQ6MC3UZo5AgMIGDj6tSwnFodnhIdbdJaQaTRS3j4jrWIRyS6 rQ9+pA+tAt+bzSQ6MNulXslSdWRj7JIKRdDJoCXJ70ibhXZYTXXpaTCF71SphjK/B+ko TDh1OOb6hzMe26Y/rr52OJGF/Immmat5f9+xC1C+iv+xS8AgpZ9zBtCsiAz337gCMvtI eNr172HJXaNYzqFcCYW2c0NItCBY0OPkG1vX7xpO8gJwB2Kgca6suR0pYz5G8fq2OY9g RInw==
X-Received: by 10.68.189.132 with SMTP id gi4mr5090285pbc.152.1378500824829; Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:53:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.178.20] (139.200.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.200.139]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fk4sm6864259pab.23.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:53:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <522A40DF.2080906@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:53:51 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
References: <20130905201022.GA32284@sources.org> <522A360F.3020301@gmail.com> <34EAA5DB-05DE-4F09-A74E-F8A53DB9D8BA@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <EMEW3|35a3ad57d7a349fdcfe8768cb890f125p85LVP03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|34EAA5DB-05DE-4F09-A74E-F8A53DB9D8BA@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: <EMEW3|35a3ad57d7a349fdcfe8768cb890f125p85LVP03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|34EAA5DB-05DE-4F09-A74E-F8A53DB9D8BA@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] Meeting in Vancouver dedicated to secure the Internet?
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:54:00 -0000

On 07/09/2013 08:30, Tim Chown wrote:
> On 6 Sep 2013, at 21:07, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Stephane,
>>
>> Have a look at what Bruce is *actually* saying, starting at
>> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_nsa_is_brea.html
>>
>> He is emphatically not saying that there is a problem with IETF
>> protocols or with the crypto algorithms we use.
>>
>> It might be useful for the IAB to give the ISOC a specific
>> clarification that the issue is about subversion of implementations,
>> not about standards and protocols. That makes it ISOC business
>> perhaps, but not IETF business (IMHO).
> 
> The IETF protocols are open for all to see, inspect, and verify.  Many implementations are not.

Indeed, and that strengthens the argument for open source
implementations - another point that ISOC could raise in
policy circles.

   Brian


> Tim
> 
>> Regards
>>   Brian
>>
>> On 06/09/2013 08:10, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>>> I'm not 100 % sure it is on-topic, since the list is new. But this
>>> paper contains a clear call to the IETF so I believe it is pertinent:
>>>
>>> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
>>>
>>>> The Internet Engineering Task Force, the group that defines the
>>>> standards that make the internet run, has a meeting planned for
>>>> early November in Vancouver. This group needs dedicate its next
>>>> meeting to this task [designing a better Internet, safe for
>>>> privacy]. This is an emergency, and demands an emergency response.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Internetgovtech mailing list
>>> Internetgovtech@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Internetgovtech mailing list
>> Internetgovtech@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech
> 
> 

From jefsey@jefsey.com  Tue Sep 10 16:18:07 2013
Return-Path: <jefsey@jefsey.com>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298C021E80BD for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:18:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -99.999
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x1DO9g+cM21Q for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sonic.altserver.com (sonic.altserver.com [72.34.37.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0BD21E80A8 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:17:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lns-c10k03-v-62-35-238-138.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr ([62.35.238.138]:50860 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by sonic.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from <jefsey@jefsey.com>) id 1VJXC2-0001xo-Jh; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:17:58 -0700
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 01:17:38 +0200
To: internetgovtech@iab.org
From: jefsey <jefsey@jefsey.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sonic.altserver.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - iab.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sonic.altserver.com: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed
Message-Id: <20130910231802.BA0BD21E80A8@ietfa.amsl.com>
Cc: iucg@ietf.org
Subject: [Internetgovtech] ISOC response
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 23:18:07 -0000

http://www.internetsociety.org/news/internet-society-responds-reports-us-government%E2%80%99s-circumvention-encryption-technology

In particular, this ISOC response states: "To every Internet user: 
ensure you are well informed about good practice in online security, 
and act on that information. Take responsibility for your own security."

My architectural reading is that IETF is to document end to end 
security and surety. And that (as per RFC 1958) fringe to fringe 
security is the IUser's responsibility by subsidiarity .  All my 
on-going RFC 6852 appeal is here: there is a need of a concerted 
cooperation involving:

- IETF's and non-IETF industrial standards (OpenStand and possibly others?)
- IUsers' responsible arrangements, specifications and practices ("OpenUse")
- Government (e.g. NSA) requirements - at least something along the 
lines of the Tallin Manual (http://www.ccdcoe.org/249.html)
- the different global continuities managers (laws, practices, 
infrastructures, etc.): IGF, ITU, OSI?

My basic understanding is that the problem is the lack of layer 6, 
and that this is an architectural issue not only best practices.
Is this mailing list entitled to discuss the architectonical reasons 
and targets for a TCP/IP architectural evolution?

jfc


From jefsey@jefsey.com  Wed Sep 11 09:28:25 2013
Return-Path: <jefsey@jefsey.com>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B185121F9B12; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -99.027
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.486, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bVnhGptlUg5Q; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sonic.altserver.com (sonic.altserver.com [72.34.37.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446A311E8220; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:27:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from i03v-62-35-238-138.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.238.138]:53261 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by sonic.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from <jefsey@jefsey.com>) id 1VJnGA-0008NQ-TS; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:27:19 -0700
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:24:39 +0200
To: iucg@ietf.org,iutf@iutf.org
From: JFC Morfin <jefsey@jefsey.com>
In-Reply-To: <52307EF4.5060709@apc.org>
References: <5230780A.9050006@apc.org> <52307EF4.5060709@apc.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sonic.altserver.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - iab.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sonic.altserver.com: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed
Message-Id: <20130911162721.446A311E8220@ietfa.amsl.com>
Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, "bestbits@lists.bestbits.net Bits" <bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>, iab@iab.org, governance@lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: [Internetgovtech] IAB Intergovtech initiative
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:28:25 -0000

<html>
<body>
Dear IUsers,<br><br>
I wish to call your attention to the IAB initiative:
<a href="https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech">
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech</a><br><br>
Let me try to clarify the situation as it presents itself from an OpenUse
point of view.<br><br>
<br>
<b><u>1. There is an architectonic issue.</u> <br><br>
</b>Architectonics is the systematization of all knowledge (Aristotle,
Kant). It concerns a new function in humankind governance. <br><br>
<b>Why? And what is this new function?<br><br>
</b>Since the Greeks and the instauration of (back then, very limited)
democracy, this governance has concerned three fundamental planes:
political and social leadership, justice and religious keeping, foreign
and military strategies. This meant the management of general, internal,
and external affairs in the natural and human context. Three archons were
assigned these tasks: the <u>Eponymous</u>, <u>Basileus,</u> and
<u>Polemarch</u>.<br><br>
A fourth plane has emerged during the 20th century. It results from the
discovery of the <u>digital reality</u> and its capacity to support
artificial extensions of nature (technology), magnitude (affecting every
one of us), globalism (the entire present and future world), and
resulting complexity that we have never met before and do not scale to it
yet (*). <br><br>
We need expert/responsible architarch societal &quot;archons&quot; (**)
to provide concerted guidance, and a technologically oriented ethic,
toward a project corresponding to a commonly accepted esthetics of our
human life in our digitally extended context. We also need an
architectonic oriented international and intersocietal concordance in
order to prevent (pre)architectural and culturally related conflicts.
<br><br>
<br>
<b><u>2. No one is in charge of dealing with this fourth societal
steering function.<br><br>
</u></b>Until recently, there was the fuzzy feeling that IAB was in
charge, in being the Wise men Board of an Internet that one accepted as
the technology epitome. For many reasons the Internet is not the epitome
of technology innovation any longuer. RFC 3869 explained why technology
could not solely be designed under private sector sponsoring and called
for public and non-commercial funding. At the same time, private sponsors
resisted the government influence (e.g. Dubai, Dec/2012) that we see
exposed in the PRISM case. A new equilibrium was found: RFC 6852
OpenStand documents it along with its economic behavior (FRAND).<br><br>
However, RFC 6852 only considered the Internet private sector internal
(IEEE, ISOC, IAB, IETF, W3C) issues and did not consider any
architectonic point.<br>
- What is the digital esthetic that we are pursuing? Along which ethic of
development?<br>
- Who is/are the referent(s)? How is technological coherence
insured?<br>
- We can understand that OpenStand gathers the industrial stakeholders,
that ITU gathers the public stakeholders, and that the UN gathers all the
international structures, but there is a need for an OpenUse point of
view and, therefore, to reach a global consensus on&nbsp; its way of
being represented.<br><br>
<br>
<u>3.<b> ISOC’s let users &quot;take responsibility&quot; major step
ahead</b>.<br><br>
</u>ISOC partly completed OpenStand yesterday in calling for OpenUse to
&quot;Take responsibility&quot; (for their security) so that:<br>
- they use the openness of standards processes like the IETF to challenge
assumptions about security specifications.<br>
- they uphold responsibility in their work, and be mindful of the damage
caused by a loss of trust. <br>
- they secure their services, and are intolerant of insecurity in the
infrastructure on which they depend. <br>
- they ensure that they are well informed about good practice in online
security, and act on that information. <br><br>
However, this OpenUse must now be inclusively yet efficiently embodied,
accepted by its partners (OpenStand, ITU, UN), and made innovative in
terms of internet intelligent use. This is the purpose of the third level
of my RFC 6852 appeal: to permit ISOC (and its OpenStand cosignatories)
to finalize and show a unified OpenStand standardization process in front
of its other partners (Civil Society, Governments, International
organizations, other digital technologies).<br><br>
jfc<br>
<a name="_GoBack"></a><br>
(*) This scaling is often referred to as the “singularity”: some believe
it will result from an augmentation of human intelligence (Doug
Engelbart, Raymond Kurtzwell) and some others, to who I belong, observe
that it is resulting from a facilitated extension of its access, coverage
and recursion.<br><br>
(**) Human relational spaces are deeply impacted by the involed changes.
This has been observed at the UN World Summit on the Information Society
and in different major occasions of the last decade. One can theorize
from this (a theory is a comment over an observation) that there is a
multistakeholderist shift from Nation-States to Society-States of the
world context. And probably from democracy (the equal citizens of a
nation) to polycracy (a multilayer network of subsidiary democracies).
This is a reality we may also observe in the Internet technology through
the importance taken by the IDNs.<br>
</body>
</html>


From hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net  Fri Sep 13 00:56:28 2013
Return-Path: <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D3211E816E for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -101.994
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.994 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vpbWloBAjnuf for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD4B11E812C for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.255.128.165] ([194.251.119.201]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MT60g-1VThdw36E2-00S42E for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 09:56:22 +0200
Message-ID: <5232C51B.8010909@gmx.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 10:56:11 +0300
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr, internetgovtech@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:a+Jvcn/22nO32hMKr+xnvATvrjmqQVekJjxPaycYVbr/gk8jcF4 tQ+1TGn5GJJWKq1vzCjXlaUug6kqfdDUEX2fDQfHw01Lc67eariqi9T9ieX5SL8yyFzMc6x B09rnZynPt4/KZ8pSJAO7Y3mEP2v4TougJAJQYic49aUK2nz7jSYSYdG1/3McFJcDP2LtwE IgDfl33QxMWJllGvfkzdg==
Cc: hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net
Subject: [Internetgovtech] Meeting in Vancouver dedicated to secure the Internet?
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 07:56:28 -0000

Stephane,

please have a look at the perpass mailing list and share your views with 
the community about what should be done:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/current/maillist.html

And "yes", there will be meetings at the upcoming IETF meeting on that 
topic (in the same style as we had meetings in Berlin as well).

Ciao
Hannes

----

I'm not 100 % sure it is on-topic, since the list is new. But this
paper contains a clear call to the IETF so I believe it is pertinent:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying

 > The Internet Engineering Task Force, the group that defines the
 > standards that make the internet run, has a meeting planned for
 > early November in Vancouver. This group needs dedicate its next
 > meeting to this task [designing a better Internet, safe for
 > privacy]. This is an emergency, and demands an emergency response.