From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Apr 2 13:49:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB9A21F8BDD for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RwJmIyCE4+Fq for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAF121F8BBC for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CAF20168; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 8B7EA638E8; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1F9638E7; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:48:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Alexandru Petrescu In-Reply-To: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 20:49:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) Let's drop the details of enumerated use cases from the charter. They should be mentioned, but they don't need to be enumerated. (in particular the spacesuit example doesn't belong in the charter,=20 but it may well be important in a use case document) 2) this paragraph is too big: > The smart-city use case is also important for networking country- and > world-wide transports. The use case should lead to development of > requirements and services for transports within cities, or countries, > making them smart. The ITS technologies may use techniques from MANET > and from RoLL adapted to this smart-city use case. One may need to > consider ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking, and also add OLSRv2 as used in > community networks. A hybrid routing protocol could be used. Instead, let's write: + The smart-city use case should lead to development of + requirements and services for transports within cities, scaling=20 + up to the size of a country or state highway/public-transit system. and then: + ITS will consider and MAY profile technologies from MANET + and/or from ROLL adapted to this smart-city use case. Extensions=20 + to routing protocols are out of scope, but requirements for those + extensions are in scope.=20 + ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking is specifically in scope. (OLSRv2 is in scope because you said that MANET is in scope) The following is, I think, content-free in a charter, remove it. >It is considered that several existing IETF protocols could and should >be reused in the communication scenarios described above. For the >V2V2V scenarios - the protocols OLSR, AODV and RPL should be >considered. For the IP addressing and mobility aspects of in-vehicle >subnetworks, single-subnet V2V, and single-subnet V2I, the following >protocols should be considered: IPv6, Mobile IPv6, ND, DHCPv6, PMIPv6. instead write: + For the IP addressing and mobility aspects of in-vehicle subnetworks, + single-subnet V2V, and single-subnet V2I, the WG will consider and=20 + if necessary, profile, existing IPv6 network protocols. Under Potential new work items, remove any mention of extensions. That won't fly. If an extension is necessary, this group will either be rechartered, or the work done in the other WG. I think that IP-over-FOO where FOO=3D802.11p should be stated explicitely. It might be a NOOP, just use IP-over-802.3, or it might not. Many think that we made a mistake not having IP over 802.11. I think that other supplementary work items list is unnecessary. The bar bof in Orlando does not constitute a meeting. Don't count it. That way you get two BOF opportunities. It's better to have fewer focused goals and an opportunity to recharter. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVtEO4qHRg3pndX9AQJ3WAQA03DHNx3vdzHv2L5FYXAVMhUcDT3XwxhF A9N815DM5tL9czUjxRBYP3m/eVCnxSpx7cPFI2wetZo6jOFwLXnIQRF08EJCaJKq Vm+y91q+YghthdfBAHW2CxIdAcmBkuZqM+phFahBxS5mTdYUW2dLgDq95Y1KMul4 fBuLtqhtOEk= =dG/f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com Tue Apr 2 13:52:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954DF21F8D09 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MSKbbEOJMKZI for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og121.obsmtp.com (exprod7og121.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40FD21F8C83 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob121.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUVtFE0CvlKNLpZijQbN7dbC/b3YnK+03@postini.com; Tue, 02 Apr 2013 13:52:35 PDT Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C2E1B83DE for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EC4119005C; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:52:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com) Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.131]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:52:35 -0700 From: Ted Lemon To: Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS Thread-Index: AQHOLG1A1OxSulDBhE2LxzYva2ORzpjD436AgAABAAA= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:52:35 +0000 Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B63077512DFAD@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <38393280E6BB97478576B6330D07C057@nominum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexandru Petrescu , "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 20:52:49 -0000 On Apr 2, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Michael Richardson wrot= e: > It's better to have fewer focused goals and an opportunity to recharter. +1 From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Apr 2 17:14:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B9D21F86F4 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RPXvZlWNr434 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f42.google.com (mail-pa0-f42.google.com [209.85.220.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8674921F86E6 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id kq13so574934pab.15 for ; Tue, 02 Apr 2013 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=eBJI0bsGlb0Ro/cmK4x3MVN845RkuuzLPCt011p7KmM=; b=Ov7C8F1hOKibuF/BK3vA3BtTGFkJYhx8CVwoH1mXkwfdSGq5Y6EnwTYQa74uKSJlW1 +OBwUM4s5NQLanr6GcOP5UIUBhaUkG76rWoZkci+p6dKw8SM7qYByE1lEIlyaS8jHgzl HRVKrjBFEknzMxzyxaGEH5ccb2yeA3UQrwyWhpIdsMsULI4Tk90iVt7Z0iEs1CWcPAlf UABb82ebigyiSLMf3ylLCsLHs1DQUhY6tMeWKH81DZcViIwPAwkZPNkB4F03wMMOjriF rhGQRuii8ENx5fs+BquN5xWh8WVsVEYoTwC+jkg6Sr8A4udSvTYVE2jZmrJ7hKMrgl6s pAPQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.48.129 with SMTP id l1mr27449728pan.215.1364948051233; Tue, 02 Apr 2013 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.33.132 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 02:14:11 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 00:14:12 -0000 > (OLSRv2 is in scope because you said that MANET is in scope) > The OLSR should not be in scope, as we may agree of using geonetwork for ITS then I think it is not manet. AB From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Wed Apr 3 08:00:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507D221F8BF8 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:00:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTj3qpqH7KDG for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2051021F8DA4 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r33F04ch006646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:00:05 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r33F04g1019735; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:00:04 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r33F00lT026674; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:00:04 +0200 Message-ID: <515C43F0.3090105@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:00:00 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] geonetworking (was: Updated proposal of Charter ITS) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:00:10 -0000 Le 02/04/2013 22:48, Michael Richardson a écrit : [...] > + ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking is specifically in scope. would another method of disseminating the information geographically be specifically in scope as well. Alex From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Apr 3 08:42:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF7621F8F44 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E1+xcGjQuLia for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EEF21F8F41 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A9F20168; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id C5A42638E8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46F6638E7; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:42:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Abdussalam Baryun In-Reply-To: References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:42:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Abdussalam" =3D=3D Abdussalam Baryun wr= ites: >> (OLSRv2 is in scope because you said that MANET is in scope) Abdussalam> The OLSR should not be in scope, as we may agree of Abdussalam> using geonetwork=20 Abdussalam> for ITS then I think it is not manet. OLSR is RFC3626, a MANET product, and OLSRv2 is a MANET draft. So, my point is that ITS does not need to list OLSR (or DYMO or...) as in scope if it lists MANET product as in scope. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVxN74qHRg3pndX9AQJ0LwP+KITtSxCS1PwFDagVsVJ2k0QrjVGsx5W4 K0NC4pytrE5hLxalgWXum2llafQ5mU4hkT5PIqj4t9DHme/7HkeiLOrY1Eg0SMzr Vka3lXF5EEe56QN955jM6UNw+Ix985OLwsoGzSmU3qqHv2sKeSkF8ujyIFZvXtL5 iyhUvw5lUlw= =oy4P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Apr 3 08:45:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B6E21F8ECE for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Uze5Hjw2+bT for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC64C21F8ECA for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6D220168; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6F2C8638E8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62486638E7; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:45:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Alexandru Petrescu In-Reply-To: <515C43F0.3090105@gmail.com> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> <515C43F0.3090105@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] geonetworking (was: Updated proposal of Charter ITS) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:45:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Alexandru" =3D=3D Alexandru Petrescu = writes: >> + ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking is specifically in scope. Alexandru> would another method of disseminating the information Alexandru> geographically be=20 Alexandru> specifically in scope as well. I think it is important to list GeoNetworking, because we know about it, and we know how to liase with ETSI and how and who shall hold change control over an ETSI specification. If another mechanism is proposed, the question about could it be used would depend upon whether we need to make any changes to that mechanism, and if we had to, how would we do it. That might require an amendment to the charter, or it might not. Don't try to anticipate every situation with policy, let the chairs and ADs apply common sense. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVxOn4qHRg3pndX9AQJ6gwP9FbzUReFD+8178X8lBiJE/mjf2RJ5NArw vEK6TAKDlMGMZunn7qkPz8h12t0KNTZSV4HfScXwTNNy9XrIQHGAgtt+uDZKChKE 4eP/f0+kW/GaRN0hJBZC+ZOcFoHpkCPrCV2uabQ9ccvoKngH2O7X4RRAEpqHQ5id aI63IvMOL7Y= =MMA6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Apr 3 09:00:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FD321F8F25; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CsjhetG-qPu; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0660E21F8D28; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D026E20168; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 532F5638E8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276F4638E7; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:00:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: 6man In-Reply-To: <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:00:42 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Alexandru" =3D=3D Alexandru Petrescu = writes: >> On 04/02/2013 12:55 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >>>> IMO, you should follow what appears to be the consensus on the >>>> subject: set the IID in whatever way you want, >>>=20 >>> About this there is a tendency to agreement. The privacy aspect >>> should be considered, balanced by a privacy-to-mobility tradeoff. >>=20 >> Which privacy aspect? Alexandru> Offer privacy by default: avoid a reversible mapping VIN-to- Alexandru> InterfaceID. Because, if a reversible mapping Alexandru> VIN-to-InterfaceID=20 Alexandru> existed, then it could be exploited by attackers by Alexandru> reversing the=20 Alexandru> InterfaceID back into VIN, and exposing this personal Alexandru> information to So, I have a question: how much privacy is actually contained in the VIN or indexed by the VIN? Given that it's printed on the windshield. Yes, it contains model, year and manufacturer of the car, but all of that information is also visible by looking at the vehicle.=20=20 So the concern is that it be if the VIN can be discovered during an online transaction of some kind that bad things can happen. Is any priviledge going to be attached to the *VIN* itself (or to the address derived from the VIN). Note that this doesn't meant that the car doesn't have a private key with a certificate attaching that private key to the VIN such that the vehicle can do interesting things with the manufacturer systems, etc. If there are databases indexed by VIN, I wonder if that in itself isn't a violation of privacy given that the VIN is rather publically displayed. (I imagine the Department of Motor Vehicles/DMV-equivalent) does this. The DMV database is sometimes protected, sometimes private, and in some jurisdictions rather porous if 1970 era episodes of Rockford Files and Riptide are to be believed). I am way more concerned about privacy concerns where the VIN, given that it can be easily known, can then be used to derive the prefix that the vehicle uses and then seek out that vehicle's systems electronically. So, I'm saying that VIN->prefix via hash may be great protection for the VIN, but it might be poor protection for the prefix.=20=20 =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVxSF4qHRg3pndX9AQJWiAQAwTQB5SNIZ+I3bSw9zkiYchm1fpfVsofJ 5uo/j6Z/3Q7iwWbsADYsy/EStM83CAQWDBTgRSjnCQlKWee0epn+9XO9avBts64H +yjGwyJHEVcZrbHFgDAd395xELDIn7KTlZnlSaOdVHy4MuvIkGDMt4w12wsuTAZh PutF8o0hKdg= =y7yt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Wed Apr 3 09:11:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C0021F8DBF for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:11:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1yob2cnHwf7 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A391321F8D82 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r33GBnb4027647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:11:49 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r33GBndt008754; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:11:49 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r33GBmi2025974; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:11:48 +0200 Message-ID: <515C54C4.5000502@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:11:48 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> <515C43F0.3090105@gmail.com> <25680.1365003935@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <25680.1365003935@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] geonetworking X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:11:56 -0000 Le 03/04/2013 17:45, Michael Richardson a écrit : > >>>>>> "Alexandru" == Alexandru Petrescu writes: > >> + ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking is specifically in scope. > > Alexandru> would another method of disseminating the information > Alexandru> geographically be > Alexandru> specifically in scope as well. > > I think it is important to list GeoNetworking, because we know about it, > and we know how to liase with ETSI and how and who shall hold change > control over an ETSI specification. Right. > If another mechanism is proposed, the question about could it be used > would depend upon whether we need to make any changes to that mechanism, > and if we had to, how would we do it. That might require an amendment > to the charter, or it might not. Don't try to anticipate every > situation with policy, let the chairs and ADs apply common sense. Ok. Alex From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Wed Apr 3 12:50:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB69B21F8D2E for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26bBaZx8M-8G for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f181.google.com (mail-pd0-f181.google.com [209.85.192.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F2A21F8CE0 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f181.google.com with SMTP id y10so1028669pdj.12 for ; Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=wJGQgRI/bLKLoOc/XHQVgiE810eynqD4lbjuWlTlDjA=; b=Cg4k41/pz0T+Ohm0BX2DQjLzSAuL9dpvv9i2ijiujvW2CL5PSlwBMOSGfkGXxHzpar QhtXBOM473/b/Mx/3IbZhDu9z5YJLGU9HZOzOCJYe8CA4OorHcA/JiN5v2TCAj+kAdpM FYYysJlzn38jI4ztYFJR7wkjppfRQuMTUdIqOnh681iM7GOHYUSNfKIX0PYNITalDqLZ lCWxeodCZZb/eEcpvoC4O53pWn6xXqVPKqvqk/BYGIY9x9HSWjZgf7yzBFlmCb3oiABO Lskn/5xTVVD7gZQL+iHf6Jg4FwpnWTbPd1Q859m0Ub9yFRtvZ81Vm+NIoT41Qt1SW5Vo sNZQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.237.100 with SMTP id vb4mr4514947pbc.202.1365018615031; Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.33.132 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:50:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <25144.1365003759@sandelman.ca> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> <25144.1365003759@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:50:14 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:50:16 -0000 On 4/3/13, Michael Richardson wrote: > >>>>>> "Abdussalam" == Abdussalam Baryun >>>>>> writes: > >> (OLSRv2 is in scope because you said that MANET is in scope) > > Abdussalam> The OLSR should not be in scope, as we may agree of > Abdussalam> using geonetwork > Abdussalam> for ITS then I think it is not manet. > > OLSR is RFC3626, a MANET product, and OLSRv2 is a MANET draft. > So, my point is that ITS does not need to list OLSR (or DYMO or...) as > in scope if it lists MANET product as in scope. > I think it is better not making MANET product or others in charter as well. We need first to be sure to produce for ITS, because other groups don't consider all ITS requirements. IMO, the ITS needs a product that is able to work in an environment of many transport nodes communicating with many Lossy nodes and many mobile nodes, AB From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com Wed Apr 3 16:36:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247C421F8EC6; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:36:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5ql9DaMpOI9; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og122.obsmtp.com (exprod7og122.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B3421F8D90; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob122.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUVy88VkfIguqWzxasaw5dBXHFfJAnmVo@postini.com; Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:36:22 PDT Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14AD11281DB; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-02.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B13F190060; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com) Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-02.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.132]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:36:17 -0700 From: Ted Lemon To: Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMIRmAL55WRTfvUStGNkrMagsAZjFnGEA Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:36:17 +0000 Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <461944FDB576A641AB42696B0C1002EB@nominum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:36:23 -0000 On Apr 3, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > So, I have a question: how much privacy is actually contained in the > VIN or indexed by the VIN? Given that it's printed on the windshield. > Yes, it contains model, year and manufacturer of the car, but all of > that information is also visible by looking at the vehicle. =20 The fact that the VIN is printed on the windshield is not as practical a pr= oblem as it would be if the VIN could be trivially retrieved electronically= . How big a privacy issue that is, I don't know, but it would certainly m= ake tracking the car easy. > I am way more concerned about privacy concerns where the VIN, given that > it can be easily known, can then be used to derive the prefix that the > vehicle uses and then seek out that vehicle's systems electronically. Indeed, if a car thief wanted to hack their way into the car to steal it, b= eing able to read the VIN off the window and then immediately identify whic= h messages were coming from that car would be a minor or major problem, dep= ending on how bad the security on the car was. From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Apr 3 17:25:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B60C21F8758 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjNAwM66U4-L for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764C221F8814 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F56D20168 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id AE6D5638E8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B92863781 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: its@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> <25144.1365003759@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:25:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Abdussalam" =3D=3D Abdussalam Baryun wr= ites: Abdussalam> The OLSR should not be in scope, as we may agree of Abdussalam> using geonetwork Abdussalam> for ITS then I think it is not manet. >> OLSR is RFC3626, a MANET product, and OLSRv2 is a MANET draft. >> So, my point is that ITS does not need to list OLSR (or DYMO or...) = as >> in scope if it lists MANET product as in scope. Abdussalam> I think it is better not making MANET product or others Abdussalam> in charter as well. We need first to be sure to produce Abdussalam> for ITS, because other groups don't consider all ITS Abdussalam> requirements. IMO, the ITS needs a product that is able Abdussalam> to work in an environment of many transport nodes=20 Abdussalam> communicating with many Lossy nodes and many mobile nodes, If it is not in the charter, they it won't be clear to others that we=20 intend to talk about it, and the charter will flounder. If we charter to create another OLSRv2 or RPL or DYMO without being clear why we can't use those (by being chartered to look at them and do gap analysis!), then we will be told: no, go to MANET. That's why the charter references technologies that we will build upon and possibly create requirements to improve. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVzIbYqHRg3pndX9AQKw5QQA0k8TfneBqA7FSjy4v5Qtqw7bgJf/EOvA dG75kBfunPJykT++f+p3yjm3JM6ils1ST6A5NobqXDcA/45U/MYxIJvWGhjkq12c weAVIdqWZLA2wmeRcnCcToxvXiB+QcZXuYSc1v1WlrdTI1Q+N3evliEGK7MT96TU A5fBovHUnkk= =RoqW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Apr 3 18:00:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB51A21F8A09; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IeKvNrnC0TRA; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BA921F8814; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BB520168; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 5D04C638E8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B98063781; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:00:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: 6man , its@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <515C6C39.8080503@internet2.edu> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <515C6C39.8080503@internet2.edu> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: Scott Brim Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:00:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Scott" =3D=3D Scott Brim writes: >> So, I have a question: how much privacy is actually contained in >> the VIN or indexed by the VIN? Given that it's printed on the >> windshield. Yes, it contains model, year and manufacturer of the >> car, but all of that information is also visible by looking at the >> vehicle. Scott> I figured you knew this already - it's about correlation. IP Scott> addresses, for a familiar example, are not a problem in and of Scott> themselves. However, they are considered personal Scott> information, not to a) This is true of all IP addresses, regardless of how they are derived. b) In general, we aren't talking about IP addresses that will be used to communicate out to the Internet, but rather within a vehicle, and=20 possibly with adjacent vehicles. (PLEASE recall, the internet protocol suite is used for more than just the Internet)=20 So, while you can get correlation easily from addresses, you can also get them from license plates, and probably a dozen other wireless technologies already present in vehicles (like the tire pressure systems we keep hearing about)... What *additional* privacy violation does knowledge of the VIN do? Or alternatively, what network attacks become possible if you have knowledge of the VIN, which means that you know what the internal addresses are? Scott> goes to the FBI office in the next town, for example. Same Scott> with a VIN=20 Scott> -- the problem is not exposing the VIN, it's having the VIN be Scott> associated with many other personal attributes on open networks. I'm not convinced that there are any advantages to deriving a vehicle-specific prefix from the VIN. It seems that vendors should get space from the RIRs, and allocate the numbers 1.2.3.4., etc.=20=20 If they want to do this from the VIN, they should do this with a keyed hash and keep the key private. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVzQm4qHRg3pndX9AQLwHwQAwXk6SrkTCjItqsYPLiQtcYmp+l4pxDci skSihskK8G4XHdfRkAu+S27dsbWljbXed/dlBMtCI3tzATU2tf4ElyUsjlcGGCHp UwD/wThYE+3Dr2QXg6CczL3fueeHNsnXVNHPAqIfrWJwOCMbp8uuSfQmogEuzfMd LtMX9+5u0mY= =2sim -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Apr 3 18:13:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40E921F860A; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TINOrea804wf; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB38221F85F5; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBA020168; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 13103638E8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015C863781; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:13:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: 6man , "" In-Reply-To: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:13:38 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Ted" =3D=3D Ted Lemon writes: >> So, I have a question: how much privacy is actually contained in the >> VIN or indexed by the VIN? Given that it's printed on the windshie= ld. >> Yes, it contains model, year and manufacturer of the car, but all of >> that information is also visible by looking at the vehicle.=20=20 Ted> The fact that the VIN is printed on the windshield is not as Ted> practical a problem as it would be if the VIN could be Ted> trivially retrieved electronically. How big a privacy issue Ted> that is, I don't know, but it would certainly make tracking the Ted> car easy.=20 So, we have assumed that a 802.11p sniffer sitting in Times Square can sniff the prefix used by passing vehicles. If I put another sniffer outside Wrigley Field, I can do correlation... how does knowing the VIN help me? I already know it is the same car. If I can derive the VIN from the prefix, I agree that it helps identify the vehicle, but not really. If any of this stuff is going to be useful, there will already be a collision avoidance protocol that will tell each car (even when they are parked) where the other vehicles are, so that they can be avoided. If I can rederive the prefix from the VIN, then it seems we also have problems. What I'm saying is that I don't=20 think that there are *new*=20 privacy problems here.=20 >> I am way more concerned about privacy concerns where the VIN, given = that >> it can be easily known, can then be used to derive the prefix that t= he >> vehicle uses and then seek out that vehicle's systems electronically. Ted> Indeed, if a car thief wanted to hack their way into the car to Ted> steal it, being able to read the VIN off the window and then Ted> immediately identify which messages were coming from that car Ted> would be a minor or major problem, depending on how bad the Ted> security on the car was.=20 If there are security problems with the car security system, I don't think the problem of identifying the vehicle by VIN is a hurdle.=20=20 Use ICMP echo ("ping") RTT as sonar (see, it was named probably), and when = you are nearby, tell the vehicle to turn itself on, honk the horn, and pop the trunk.=20 =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUVzTsIqHRg3pndX9AQLESQQAvs27WEUaBhr3tFw4+55aFphCHI4JxjWN q4T/Y1sCHZIZFGaugfgplXR6H10T5gtTDnogJMusNxC1kimgNp6vaenH+YCqvhh/ ZYujTLANxqRnBOCht6SYlVNoJS8k4PzpqDMtLg+dcIq16xWx2jGvKwPUVJYqjCfx +4g4HeLBezs= =DkE8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From buddenbergr@gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:30:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1C921F92DB for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:30:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OT1NOCVaBwK2 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-da0-x236.google.com (mail-da0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F98221F92D3 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-da0-f54.google.com with SMTP id p1so901768dad.27 for ; Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:30:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:subject:from:to:date:in-reply-to:references :content-type:x-mailer:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XDes9JTYKs+quIxLl+FsOmCVkdlKtASR5EU/dup6D3Y=; b=KOW71jSB2NQeVtvgt9tfwLaamDRyycDsD4k1REvjTYIlE48uPkGzuhLJ9vwmzeD5OU IvqivB3v+Cqc9fdRmttsxSY0LidCw4yU/C2owR1smeVmT8y6MueyMW92N8PNwW0M6V6O 5iTAAH+WrfItSV7sJX6knroJ0QXOL7NjljqapdjmvHn6XB3OCA8BytCXyRGEa2cYARds 3wgVIkKOT0RMjbK1Cr0o4WkoxPqpzzLxXjC64Nt7Ngiq0K0to1lqIc+gHe5C6gcndsVp En8U2GwMyr/+LANRqTwCeNnhV7pCgSLuTqioQCs880GC0I4i8RpMs330phKa7R7YdOO3 vwCg== X-Received: by 10.66.120.99 with SMTP id lb3mr6610433pab.173.1365039057833; Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-50-131-118-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [50.131.118.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pg7sm8021348pbc.5.2013.04.03.18.30.56 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> From: Rex Buddenberg To: its@ietf.org Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:30:55 -0700 In-Reply-To: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.6.3 (3.6.3-2.fc18) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:30:59 -0000 apparently this got mislaid. reposted: --------------------------------------------- What I did do -- comment in line. What I did not do -- reorganize. On Sun, 2013-03-17 at 19:39 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: > Dears, > > In Orlando we discussed with several participants, > Intelligent Transportation Systems at IETF > Draft Charter Proposal > March 17th, 2013 > http://ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > Intelligent Transportation Systems (its) > ---------------------------------------- > Current Status: Informal bar BoF > > Chairs: > TBD > TBD > > Assigned Area Director: > TBD () > > Mailing list > Address: its@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > Archive: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/its/current/maillist.html > > Draft Charter Proposal: > > Context > ------- > Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS) are composed of > interconnected systems of machines; vehicles, mobile devices and fixed > embedded devices (actuator and sensors). These machines communicate > with fixed access points which are are deployed along terrestrial > roads (e.g. Road-Side Units), and along shores of water paths; > alternatively, mobile or fixed access points may be deployed above > ground; they all offer wireless communications to equipment deployed > in mobile vehicles (e.g. On-Board Units), in a secure manner. I'd feel better with language a bit like this: ITS is about several aspects of extending the internet to mobile platforms. > The > entire system may be connected to the Internet; in certain cases the > vehicles are disconnected from the Internet yet are inter-connected to > each another, in an ad-hoc manner. ok. The characteristics here include - presence of radio-WANs (WAN meaning router-router interconnect, as opposed to LANs -- topological difference) But also: - lower capacity, higher noise than customary internet plumbing - presence of mission critical needs and applications. - volatile topology as vehicles (and the routers they contain) move. The internet's major engineering contribution is to provide perfect delivery (e.g. bit-perfect, in order) over imperfect infrastructure. There's no better place to take advantage of these characteristics than here. > Each moving vehicle may use > disjoint and heterogeneous radio systems (e.g. a vehicle employs two > or more different radios which may be used simultaneously, or > alternatively). > The reality of radio is lower capacity than wired internet (by four orders of magnitude) coupled with higher error rates than experienced in a wired internet (also by orders of magnitude). Lower per-link capacity and the mission-critical availability needs strongly indicate that multiple radio-WANs used in parallel must be supported. The volatile topology also indicates that vehicle-to-vehicle daisy chains should be supported. > > Communication security requirements are of paramount importance in the > context of vehicular communications. ['Security' covers lots of territory. In order for the charter to be at all useful, we need to narrow things down a little and mapping onto the ISO model is a good way to do that.] Layer 6/7. Security of the content data is important: authenticity is a universal, ubiquitous requirement -- the implications of spoofed data (such as bogus position reports or bogus traffic controls) should be obvious. Equally important, some data, such as medical (e.g. the ambulance use case) must be confidential. Scope of this requirement is end-to-end; there should be no place short of end systems where the content data is not protected. Layer 3. Authenticity of routing information protocol messages is important; spoofing would distort the internetwork topology. > Using IP should not introduce > new risks, especially when safety-specific applications are involved. Compared to what? > > For example, crash avoidance inter-vehicle communication systems > should be secured (safety of humans is at stake); as another practical > example, within the vehicle, introducing IP communications to an > otherwise non-IP rearview camera should not allow for attacker IP > devices to DoS the displafy, or turn the volume to a sudden high. > The above is a use case demonstrating need for content-level authenticity. > Certain security requirements may be generic IP communications > security, whereas others may be specific to vehicular communications. > Layer 6/7 (content authenticity and confidentiality) are indeed media-independent. (and platform independent). > > Due to the mobile nature of the system, several problems exist with > respect to IP addressing and route establishment such that IP > communications can be realized. In the case of 1-hop > Vehicle-to-Vehicle communications (V2V), without infrastructure, there > is a problem in identifying which subnets and addresses are used on > the link between two vehicles; also there is a problem in deciding how > one vehicle learns the prefix deployed in a vehicle in close vicinity. > In the case of n-hop V2V2V communications there is a need of > identification which address configuration and dynamic routing > protocol should be employed. In the case of Vehicle-to-Infrastructure > (V2I) communications, there is a problem in propagating the prefix > contained in a vehicle to the routers of the infrastructures without > destabilizing the Internet routing (a typical IP network is using > mostly IP addresses topologically valid at a single point, and > relatively stable routing system). > > One particular use case is under the form of an instrumented > ambulance. The ambulance is connected to the Internet and offers > wireless and wired access to a large number of individual equipments > deployed in-vehicle. The ambulance may move through a traffic jam and > signal its presence to nearby vehicles with visual means and also with > communication packets. > > Automatic driving through traffic jams involves wireless > communications between vehicles. Constant links between vehicles > constitute good support for establishing IP communications. An IP > device in one vehicle may signal its actual speed to another IP device > in the vehicle nearby. > > The smart-city use case is also important for networking country- and > world-wide transports. I don't know how 'smart-city' is defined. (Possibly related to that is 'smart grid' in the US -- it's equally undefined.). Use cases like this are valuable if we can distill requirements from them; if the use case is so foggy that we can't distill requirements, then you have clutter. > The use case should lead to development of > requirements and services for transports within cities, or countries, > making them smart. The ITS technologies may use techniques from MANET > and from RoLL adapted to this smart-city use case. One may need to > consider ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking, and also add OLSRv2 as used in > community networks. A hybrid routing protocol could be used. > You skipped from use case to potential solution. This omits the requirements step between. And, IMHO, trespasses on what the working group, not its charter, should be doing. > > Several Standards Development Organizations outside IETF work towards > developing protocols for vehicular communications. In some cases IP > protocols are used for transport, in other cases IP protocols are > modified for purposes particular to vehicular communications (such as > the use of geonetworking at ETSI, or 6lowpan intermediate layers at > IPSO). The relevant SDOs and respective groups are: ETSI ITS, ISO TC > 204, IEEE 802.11p, You should include several other relevant here, if you're going to list any at all: - IEEE 802.16 - IEEE 802.22 - TIA LTE - any relevant satcom stds bodies (this area is horribly confused) And it gets worse, much worse. In US, there are several entities dealing with comms to vehicles: - US Congress has passed legislation that includes 1) some $ and 2) direction to Commerce Department to charter FirstNet, an autonomous corporation within the deparment (don't ask me what that means) to provide emergency services communications. - Commerce already has National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST); the legislation gives NIST charter for public safety comms R&D. - NIST, in turn, has a cozy relationship with National Public Safety Telecommunications Council which has recently written up a Statement of Requirements for 'broadband' communications. It's really about extending the internet to emergency services platforms, but you can't use that heretical language with this group. (and the statement of requirements, IMHO, isn't very good). Why recite this? Aside from the obvious overlap? If you look at NPSTC, they have two major faults: 1) operators, not planners and 2) locked into looking at extending the internet to mobile platforms through the narrowband voice radio experience. We gotta do better. Of the standards bodies that could possibly get the emergency services aspect of reach to mobile, IETF has the best chance. Expertise and perspective. > AUTOSAR, IPSO. Opportunities exist to develop > liaisons with these SDOs. > How many of these are communications standards? And how many are something else (like position/nav?). > > A number of IETF protocols are being considered in the context of > Intelligent Transportation Systems - most notably IPv6, Mobile IPv6, > ND, ULA, DHCPv6, RPL, PMIPv6. Others, such as Global HAHA, are not > excluded. At IETF several Working Groups such as 6MAN, V6OPS, DHC, > MIF, MANET, DMM, RoLL, NETEXT, LISP produce work which is highly > pertinent to the ITS context. These are all layer 3 RFCs, aren't they? This gives rise to a scope question: some of the issues you raise above are not layer 3 issues (end-end security for example). Are you intending to confine to layer 3 or worry about higher/lower layer issues within [its]? The peril of 'all layers' is focus; the peril of layer 3 is the one already raised -- what are you doing that, say, MANET, isn't already? Said another way, what's the product? (Liaison with 101 other standards bodies isn't a legitimate end, although it may be a necessary means). > A gap analysis should be performed to > identify whether work in these groups can be reused for vehicular > communications. A problem statement draft should be written. > > New efforts at IETF are also relevant: 6TSCH. The 6TSCH effort > dealing with time-synchronized 802.15.4 link layers may have > pertinence to safety applications of ITS, and it should be clarified > whether it pertains to long-range communication between vehicles. > > Potential new work items > ------------------------ > The following potential work items exist: > > Scenarios and requirements for vehicular communications will be > developed which introduce at IETF the terms V2V, V2I, V2R and > intra-vehicular paradigms. Define various possible scenarios for IP > vehicular communications and identify requirements that are essential > to support the defined scenarios. > > Practices and gap analysis for IP vehicular communications: document > practices for the deployment of existing IP protocols and identify any > limitation of the existing IP protocols to fulfill the scenarios and > requirements for IP vehicular communications. If limitations are > identified as part of the above deliverable, specify new protocols or > extensions to existing protocols that removes the identified > limitations to achieve IP vehicular communications. > > A problem statement draft should be written which documents the > existing protocols, analyses the gaps of their behaviour in 1-hop V2V > networks and expresses the need for a new solution. > > Supplementary work items > ------------------------ > Infrastructure-less 1-hop route exchanges between vehicles, or between > vehicles and road-side units which are disconnected from the > infrastructure. A widely-used link-scoped IP protocol should be > reused for prefix exchanges between vehicles in close vicinity; a > single subnet is used between such vehicles, which are otherwise > disconnected from the infrastructure. > > IEEE 802.11p is a link layer technology specific to vehicular > communications, and which may be used for IP for ITS. In certain > places this link layer technology is named "G5". Several trials of > using IP directly over 802.11p links (without intermediate layers) > have been performed in laboratory environments. > > A vehicle may have a multiplicity of interfaces, and a multiplicity of > addresses outside and inside the vehicle, at the same time, for > different purposes. > > For the use of IPv6 addresses inside a vehicle it is necessary the > addressing schemes which couled be employed, and which address > auto-configuration mechanism(s) (or a combination thereof) should be > employed such that to be inline with the in-vehicle application > requirements scenarios. There is a host of issues here; needs a sort. If you are going to have a vehicle disconnected (or tenuously, intermittently connected) to the internet, then there are several services that it either must do without, do with but with delay, or provide itself. DHCP seems to be what you had in mind here. But DNS and white pages (PKI) access is also required (there are probably more ... and some are dependent on just what apps you intend to support). > > > For outside the vehicle, the use of IPv6 addresses in a subnet formed > by the egress interfaces of the vehicles, in a 1-hop ad-hoc manner, is > considered. > > For the fixed network deployed outside the vehicle - the use of Proxy > Mobile IPv6 protocol on the fixed mobility management entities may > prove advantageous to offer mobility to a moving network deployed in a > vehicle. > > For the security inside the vehicular on-board network, requirements > specific to vehicular communications should be formulated. > > For the security on the link between two vehicles, a secure Neighbor > Discovery mechanism should be used. > > Milestones: > Mar 2013 - Meet in Orlando done > Jul 2013 - Meet in Berlin > Jul 2013 - Present drafts "Scenarios and Requirements for IP in > Intelligent Transportation Systems", and Gap Analysis Is this the task you envision? [its] is, of course, interesting (why I signed up to the newsgroup). But I'm having a hard time figuring out what the intended goals are. I built about half the course I used to teach around what I called Plowshares into Swords Internet -- what are the differences between garden variety internet (office, residence) and what we need ('we' can be either military or emergency services, the analysis works the same). The differences sort into four (only) bins: - availability and survivability - security - reach to mobile platforms - QoS Control Which sets you up for about 8 hours of lecture. Suggest that that might fit here. On Fri, 2013-03-29 at 12:03 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: > Discussions happened briefly in private about this Charter proposal. > > See attached for the new version. > > Most notably > > - it now mentions the URL of a web page > http://www.lara.prd.fr/ietf-its > cotnains documents presented at earlier meetings at IETF. > > - reflects a little bit better the potential work with respect to > MANET/RoLL: write first requirements, then identify gaps, then if new > work is needed, otherwise do work in conjunction with the group which > 'owns' the existing protocol. > > I agree it is still a relatively large text. > > Comments welcome. > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com Wed Apr 3 19:14:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B5721F8648; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bIKaeWHsmftb; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og111.obsmtp.com (exprod7og111.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7739B21F863B; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob111.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUVziAH8czjFSkJdysGgiezVOXb9ivzuR@postini.com; Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:14:24 PDT Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51A51B8A87; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9B3B19005D; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com) Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.131]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:14:23 -0700 From: Ted Lemon To: Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMIRmAL55WRTfvUStGNkrMagsAZjFnGEAgAAbHwCAABEOgA== Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 02:14:23 +0000 Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <84AB3C2D2E950A4D9706874863224422@nominum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 02:14:25 -0000 On Apr 3, 2013, at 9:13 PM, Michael Richardson wrot= e: > So, we have assumed that a 802.11p sniffer sitting in Times Square can > sniff the prefix used by passing vehicles. If I put another sniffer > outside Wrigley Field, I can do correlation... how does knowing the VIN > help me? I already know it is the same car. Yes, indeed, this seems to argue for vehicles renumbering on a regular basi= s, at least on the prefix that they are using to communicate with the outsi= de world. From swb@internet2.edu Wed Apr 3 10:52:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7CB21F8DBF; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GA3bUW1SUR01; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from co9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (co9ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [207.46.163.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D031E21F8D94; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail187-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.236) by CO9EHSOBE010.bigfish.com (10.236.130.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:52:32 +0000 Received: from mail187-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail187-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF82B5403A4; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:52:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.237.5; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BY2PRD0811HT001.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -2 X-BigFish: S-2(zzbb2dI98dI154cP9371I1432Id799hzz1f42h1fc6h1d77h1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1082kzz8275ch17326ah8275bhz2dh2a8h668h839h947hd25he5bhf0ah1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h1765h18e1h190ch1946h19b4h19c3h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1b1cn1b1bi1155h) Received: from mail187-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail187-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 1365011519831825_23762; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS025.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.244]) by mail187-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB2B360282; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BY2PRD0811HT001.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (157.56.237.5) by CO9EHSMHS025.bigfish.com (10.236.130.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:51:56 +0000 Received: from swbi2mbp.local (67.241.75.185) by pod51019.outlook.com (10.255.91.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.287.8; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:51:55 +0000 Message-ID: <515C6C39.8080503@internet2.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:51:53 -0400 From: Scott Brim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [67.241.75.185] X-OriginatorOrg: internet2.edu X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:42:12 -0700 Cc: 6man , its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:52:35 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/03/13 12:00, Michael Richardson allegedly wrote: > >>>>>> "Alexandru" == Alexandru Petrescu >>>>>> writes: >>> On 04/02/2013 12:55 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >>>>> IMO, you should follow what appears to be the consensus on >>>>> the subject: set the IID in whatever way you want, >>>> >>>> About this there is a tendency to agreement. The privacy >>>> aspect should be considered, balanced by a >>>> privacy-to-mobility tradeoff. >>> >>> Which privacy aspect? > > Alexandru> Offer privacy by default: avoid a reversible mapping > VIN-to- Alexandru> InterfaceID. Because, if a reversible mapping > Alexandru> VIN-to-InterfaceID Alexandru> existed, then it could be > exploited by attackers by Alexandru> reversing the Alexandru> > InterfaceID back into VIN, and exposing this personal Alexandru> > information to > > So, I have a question: how much privacy is actually contained in > the VIN or indexed by the VIN? Given that it's printed on the > windshield. Yes, it contains model, year and manufacturer of the > car, but all of that information is also visible by looking at the > vehicle. > > So the concern is that it be if the VIN can be discovered during > an online transaction of some kind that bad things can happen. Is > any priviledge going to be attached to the *VIN* itself (or to the > address derived from the VIN). Note that this doesn't meant that > the car doesn't have a private key with a certificate attaching > that private key to the VIN such that the vehicle can do > interesting things with the manufacturer systems, etc. I figured you knew this already - it's about correlation. IP addresses, for a familiar example, are not a problem in and of themselves. However, they are considered personal information, not to be revealed without justification, because they are relatively constant across multiple interactions, in all of which one or more of a person's identifying tokens will be present (e.g. cookies or an email address or just a session layer ID). Not only that but as you move and your IP address changes, the new IP address's traffic can be correlated with the old one, because some other details persist across the change. Because of that, because different pieces of communicated information have overlapping lifetimes, correlations can be drawn between many of them and all sorts of stuff can be gleaned. I can find out that the guy I've hired as a contract killer occasionally goes to the FBI office in the next town, for example. Same with a VIN - -- the problem is not exposing the VIN, it's having the VIN be associated with many other personal attributes on open networks. Scott -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlFcbDkACgkQF0TR2hENFASJ5QCgic6v0Udi+O7+p7kzYhQF7/bl UC8AoKLXQj3xFtoGTuY2LxXfy9C+JGCA =kbYL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com Wed Apr 3 18:18:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340DC21F8C98; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XV4hTRnra+nl; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.64.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CEF21F8BBD; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id r341Isad030133; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:54 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-306.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-306.sw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.30]) by slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id r341IrHe030120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:53 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.3.40]) by XCH-PHX-306.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.6.81]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.011; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:53 -0700 From: "Manfredi, Albert E" To: Michael Richardson , 6man , "" Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMC3VsWGPEBsrZU2lVqRQiRtseZjE8XeAgAAsOICAAH9ggIAAGx4A//+LNGA= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 01:18:52 +0000 Message-ID: <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E44F@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:42:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:18:55 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Michael Richardson > If I can derive the VIN from the prefix, I agree that it helps identify > the vehicle, but not really. If any of this stuff is going to be > useful, there will already be a collision avoidance protocol that will > tell each car (even when they are parked) where the other vehicles are, > so that they can be avoided. >=20 > If I can rederive the prefix from the VIN, then it seems we also have > problems. >=20 > What I'm saying is that I don't > think that there are *new* > privacy problems here. I would agree with that comment, but then again, I don't see any compelling= reason (nor any advantage) to use the VIN in the IPv6 address anyway. So p= rivacy concerns or no, I would reiterate my suggestion that if the VIN is u= sed, it be used as part of a DNS name, rather than an integral part of the = address. Bert From swb@internet2.edu Thu Apr 4 07:02:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F6321F8D03; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YOp9itFwRs-2; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from co9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (co9ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [207.46.163.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56ED21F8EF1; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail210-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.227) by CO9EHSOBE024.bigfish.com (10.236.130.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:02:39 +0000 Received: from mail210-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail210-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FE0980208; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:02:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.241.5; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0811HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -1 X-BigFish: S-1(zzbb2dI98dI154cP1432Izz1f42h1fc6h1d77h1ee6h1de0h1fdah1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1082kzz8275ch17326ahz2dh2a8h668h839h947hd25he5bhf0ah1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h1765h18e1h190ch1946h19b4h19c3h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1b1cn1b1bi1155h) Received: from mail210-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail210-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 1365084157442460_32749; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:02:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS018.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.245]) by mail210-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E2EBC005F; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:02:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0811HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (157.56.241.5) by CO9EHSMHS018.bigfish.com (10.236.130.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:02:35 +0000 Received: from swbi2mbp.local (67.241.75.185) by pod51019.outlook.com (10.255.107.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.287.8; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:02:34 +0000 Message-ID: <515D87F9.6000003@internet2.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:02:33 -0400 From: Scott Brim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [67.241.75.185] X-OriginatorOrg: internet2.edu Cc: 6man , Ted Lemon , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 14:02:41 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/03/13 21:13, Michael Richardson allegedly wrote: > If I can derive the VIN from the prefix, I agree that it helps > identify the vehicle, but not really. If any of this stuff is > going to be useful, there will already be a collision avoidance > protocol that will tell each car (even when they are parked) where > the other vehicles are, so that they can be avoided. > > If I can rederive the prefix from the VIN, then it seems we also > have problems. The car is less of an issue than the people. If you start with the VIN in packets over radio, you can the owner, and then do correlations to derive personal information. Yes you can figure out if the owner is the one communicating, to start with, based on previous info. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlFdh/gACgkQF0TR2hENFATUfgCfSBJs4/oIPJH7W9dCtA5VnUsi at4An3p8x+7kvdi/X/aLXv7GI5gZCRzu =KcnM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mcr@sandelman.ca Thu Apr 4 08:02:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DB121F899E; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yfc9UGdelvyv; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DCB821F88BF; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D4F20168; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 84346638E8; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D67638E7; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:02:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:02:36 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Ted" =3D=3D Ted Lemon writes: >> So, we have assumed that a 802.11p sniffer sitting in Times Square c= an >> sniff the prefix used by passing vehicles. If I put another sniffer >> outside Wrigley Field, I can do correlation... how does knowing the = VIN >> help me? I already know it is the same car. Ted> Yes, indeed, this seems to argue for vehicles renumbering on a Ted> regular basis, at least on the prefix that they are using to Ted> communicate with the outside world.=20 Yes. I used two locations, but I assumed that whomever owns the road-side lighting system has thousands of such sniffers.=20=20 I think that imadali-its-vinipv6 is the wrong idea. If it is useful for a manufacturer to derive a subnet-ID from a VIN, that's fine, but I think it's a private matter. Let's write a BCP on how a manufacturer might do this in a way such that the the VIN <-> subnet prefix mapping is neither reversable, nor is it reproduceable. (I.e. I can't get the VIN from the subnet-ID, and I also can't get the subnet-ID from the VIN) Only the manufacturer *might* know the mapping, and maybe we can write the BCP such that the manufacturer can forget it too. The manufacturer likely goes to get RIR space just like any other Enterprise. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUV2V+4qHRg3pndX9AQJPNAP9EbxWTRbvOS64lkp2yZ3WSOEIQvt4G/Jx rREzqF4npDsN/alLeMD66Tp3hkXfBLoc5B41MBuIzD6eAzbFHPfFB4tCodwe7pBA w6si5lQFoVRhASOLmwg/gmVjHt43fg6+ETGTdSyxqj4KHQmBO6YdB9D/slHsO9pz gFJ4hgKVqFw= =5jiu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From roland.bless@kit.edu Thu Apr 4 08:59:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7CA21F8F00; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I-xY8qzYp-55; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BD221F8EED; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irams1.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.10.5]) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtps port 25 id 1UNmZC-0004eV-Oh; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:59:16 +0200 Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=vorta.tm.kit.edu) by irams1.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 id 1UNmZB-0008GM-1E; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:59:09 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2F77A8050C; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:59:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <515DA34C.6020405@kit.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:59:08 +0200 From: Roland Bless Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <23965.1365087739@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <23965.1365087739@sandelman.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (irams1.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-AV: Kaspersky (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1365091156.616213000 Cc: 6man , Ted Lemon , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:59:21 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 04.04.2013 17:02, Michael Richardson wrote: > I think that imadali-its-vinipv6 is the wrong idea. If it is > useful for a manufacturer to derive a subnet-ID from a VIN, that's > fine, but I think it's a private matter. Let's write a BCP on how > a manufacturer might do this in a way such that the the VIN <-> > subnet prefix mapping is neither reversable, nor is it > reproduceable. (I.e. I can't get the VIN from the subnet-ID, and I > also can't get the subnet-ID from the VIN) > > Only the manufacturer *might* know the mapping, and maybe we can > write the BCP such that the manufacturer can forget it too. The > manufacturer likely goes to get RIR space just like any other > Enterprise. Our initial proposal [1] was to use rightbits(SHA-2(VIN | OEM-specific-256bit Key), 40) to algorithmically generate the Global-ID of a ULA-Prefix. As long as the key is kept secret, it would not be reversable or derivable from the VIN. Using a global prefix from an RIR is certainly another viable alternative. [1] http://www.lara.prd.fr/_media/ipv6-its/2012-03-26-seis-kit-ietf83-its.pdf Regards, Roland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlFdo0YACgkQ1YyfLd659kfWvACgx5jchyyAQ1fR2hPVoMsD8dEp a4QAoLnEm1BhSR3piHX4nutLdBpNhRXK =2g2s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Thu Apr 4 10:19:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F99621F86CB; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bXUZLel0q+F7; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689DC21F8D05; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r34HJBid002101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:19:12 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r34HJB78011200; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:19:11 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r34HJ2BZ001790; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:19:11 +0200 Message-ID: <515DB606.5070003@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 19:19:02 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Manfredi, Albert E" References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E44F@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E44F@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Michael Richardson , 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:19:19 -0000 Le 04/04/2013 03:18, Manfredi, Albert E a écrit : >> -----Original Message----- From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > > >> If I can derive the VIN from the prefix, I agree that it helps >> identify the vehicle, but not really. If any of this stuff is >> going to be useful, there will already be a collision avoidance >> protocol that will tell each car (even when they are parked) where >> the other vehicles are, so that they can be avoided. >> >> If I can rederive the prefix from the VIN, then it seems we also >> have problems. >> >> What I'm saying is that I don't think that there are *new* privacy >> problems here. > > I would agree with that comment, but then again, I don't see any > compelling reason (nor any advantage) to use the VIN in the IPv6 > address anyway. So privacy concerns or no, I would reiterate my > suggestion that if the VIN is used, it be used as part of a DNS > name, rather than an integral part of the address. Some applications involving the use of VIN may have been discussed. One requirement may come from V2V communications when infrastructure is not available: how to know the IP address of the seen vehicle when DNS is unavailable. Other requirement of using parts of the VIN would be remote software update: extract the field of the VIN which represents Manufacturer ID, make an IPv6 multicast group of it, and send the update accordingly. These are just ideas having been floated in various contexts. VIN-to-IPv6-InterfaceIdentifier is just one little thing which could or not could not work. Alex > > Bert > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com Thu Apr 4 11:01:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4242021F9615; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vfS4xjN8QaNx; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og123.obsmtp.com (exprod7og123.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E032E21F958A; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob123.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUV2//plFOh50TQsPR57ZERkDXuZRTC9i@postini.com; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:01:34 PDT Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDF5108080; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8844219005D; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:01:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com) Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.131]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:01:34 -0700 From: Ted Lemon To: "" Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMIRmAL55WRTfvUStGNkrMagsAZjFnGEAgAAbHwCAABEOgIABBfYAgAACrYA= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 18:01:33 +0000 Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775131DEA@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com><515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com><515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca><8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com><7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <301F74C7B05D4BA6A8258AFA491FD252@SRA4> In-Reply-To: <301F74C7B05D4BA6A8258AFA491FD252@SRA4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Michael Richardson , 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:01:36 -0000 On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Richard Roy wrote: > Furthermore, anonymity concerns and the simultaneous morphing of all cont= ent > in these safety messages that could be used to infer behavior and violate > privacy are being addressed within the IEEE 1609.2 and ETSI TC ITS securi= ty > working groups (as well as in the SafetyPilot program in the US).=20 That's good to hear, although are you addressing the IP layer privacy issue= s, or just the link layer issues? It doesn't do us any good to have priva= cy-supporting link-layer addresses if we screw that up at the IP layer. In any case, I think it's worth making sure that however this problem gets = solved, we talk about it and describe how it is solved, even if how it is s= olved is "in this IEEE spec." From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:08:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3699221F8ED8 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ndFzn8zWyzp9 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f46.google.com (mail-pa0-f46.google.com [209.85.220.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1023821F8DDD for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id lb1so1621887pab.5 for ; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:08:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=hbfQ6SV4xSb0Xk8eeOBlVzI3sBF6gC+Ird6O7d2norU=; b=DFZZuhK5kICpWgsXVspQjGXRGpTatTYWDAiq2P/+mJLYckLUsy4p773PDOrVHvetR5 5G0edUbIkw7JIxmzB/sJAP3bk86JLa7Tm4ZBoq6+3ePgcqbdEYOrsq1Q49kHmZoaKtRM KHbQhoPlCjj0LMlfpHQHxHG4oLpBIDnxdiN4Pde7+K4VCg3eb53bSoReqMWYviZNGetd IXOeEJ33HMrk4Ox0W3g+wbXhhoxbPVchJ82FJ1JxWU2+yMD+rRK1yCH+0tjhvy5MmzNN jn2i97i3WR2L2gZ+a/MEDd/cKoTMiBBYoZ36PrOvG+0BXKi/N/QsmqWw1XnLAxknl52H 1lhg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.222.228 with SMTP id qp4mr11125671pac.113.1365102483329; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.33.132 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:08:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <31573.1365035117@sandelman.ca> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> <25144.1365003759@sandelman.ca> <31573.1365035117@sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:08:03 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 19:08:06 -0000 Hi Michael, I agree with you. I agree that all charters in IETF are able to make use of all IETF products (MANET, ROLL, 6MAN, etc), so I think the ITS charter may use any other WG product by default, but not need to mention. I agree that we need to be clear why we don't use some or why some will not be used in ITS industry. AB On 4/4/13, Michael Richardson wrote: > >>>>>> "Abdussalam" == Abdussalam Baryun >>>>>> writes: > Abdussalam> The OLSR should not be in scope, as we may agree of > Abdussalam> using geonetwork > Abdussalam> for ITS then I think it is not manet. > > >> OLSR is RFC3626, a MANET product, and OLSRv2 is a MANET draft. > >> So, my point is that ITS does not need to list OLSR (or DYMO or...) > as > >> in scope if it lists MANET product as in scope. > > Abdussalam> I think it is better not making MANET product or others > Abdussalam> in charter as well. We need first to be sure to produce > Abdussalam> for ITS, because other groups don't consider all ITS > Abdussalam> requirements. IMO, the ITS needs a product that is able > Abdussalam> to work in an environment of many transport nodes > Abdussalam> communicating with many Lossy nodes and many mobile nodes, > > If it is not in the charter, they it won't be clear to others that we > intend to talk about it, and the charter will flounder. > > If we charter to create another OLSRv2 or RPL or DYMO without being > clear why we can't use those (by being chartered to look at them and do > gap analysis!), then we will be told: no, go to MANET. > > That's why the charter references technologies that we will build upon > and possibly create requirements to improve. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > > > From albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com Thu Apr 4 12:56:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3C821F9530; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:56:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FkeocUSuuFv; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.64.128]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFBC21F8BF8; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id r34JuDdT026092; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:56:13 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-205.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-205.sw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.16]) by slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id r34JuCub026088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:56:13 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.3.40]) by XCH-PHX-205.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.5.133]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.011; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:56:12 -0700 From: "Manfredi, Albert E" To: Alexandru Petrescu Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMViAr5fycvyPPkuGym/ciC0oU5jGd5NA Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:56:12 +0000 Message-ID: <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E633@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E44F@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> <515DB606.5070003@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <515DB606.5070003@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Cc: 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 19:56:15 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexandru Petrescu [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] > Some applications involving the use of VIN may have been discussed. >=20 > One requirement may come from V2V communications when infrastructure is > not available: how to know the IP address of the seen vehicle when DNS > is unavailable. If these comms are tactical, I would go to something more like 802.11 ad-ho= c network, and do the comms at layer 2. Alternatively, the vehicle can use = its assigned IPv6 /64 prefix (which need not be related to anything specifi= c like a VIN), and then use MANET. Seems built to order for MANET, no? > Other requirement of using parts of the VIN would be remote software > update: extract the field of the VIN which represents Manufacturer ID, > make an IPv6 multicast group of it, and send the update accordingly. For that, I would way prefer using the VIN as part of a DNS name, which is = then mapped to the IP address of the vehicle. This makes the problem more a= menable to flexible solutions, like allowing the IP address prefix to be ch= anged periodically, or allowing the vehicle ID to be associated in any numb= er of ways, other than just a VIN. By the way, this vehicle application of IPv6 is another example that makes = me kringe about the waste of even IPv6 address space, when we continue to d= iscourage the use of longer than 64-bit prefixes. Bert >=20 > These are just ideas having been floated in various contexts. >=20 > VIN-to-IPv6-InterfaceIdentifier is just one little thing which could or > not could not work. >=20 > Alex From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Apr 4 15:08:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15D321F86DC for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:08:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihVjv7ze2MpE for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f43.google.com (mail-pb0-f43.google.com [209.85.160.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA17C21F93C2 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f43.google.com with SMTP id md4so1668573pbc.2 for ; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BQhRIPOA0vzmVawE4Bkvk4UqR4ISgN13tHoyDWrXEVk=; b=HAcSpiMyjCA/cN2rURhGrI3AI1gQuZepAk0tsHUv/vFlabU1D4tHspYlqwA1r854wN efV0PzyeEt/410AmloKAMFVvpg7Z0zz0sWn9A9gNZYyEcAnuhBQABUBlUQg+ni8v4hui XWiQokiNzrmiemN4v9nZBhCVXkt+V5thkpHWfVzMsomrpCHOdNRVcKUvT7aZmK7tIkNH 42cGMP4Zasb6EqLlUju7q3mopRN9p3twwFWDKTR+sQi9ETLMYHq1kIoePm3UyFu5+Unk BPG13wOHE8sEltEljub29mELb93f+/eC4Sqg3KjGHXwUAUeOxRiHe3RtDVQJMGLkvaSN qgnw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.144.5 with SMTP id si5mr8255042pab.6.1365113324932; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.33.132 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E633@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E44F@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> <515DB606.5070003@gmail.com> <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E633@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 00:08:44 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Alexandru Petrescu Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:08:58 -0000 On 4/4/13, Manfredi, Albert E wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alexandru Petrescu [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] >> Some applications involving the use of VIN may have been discussed. >> One requirement may come from V2V communications when infrastructure is >> not available: how to know the IP address of the seen vehicle when DNS >> is unavailable. > > If these comms are tactical, I would go to something more like 802.11 ad-hoc > network, and do the comms at layer 2. Alternatively, the vehicle can use its > assigned IPv6 /64 prefix (which need not be related to anything specific > like a VIN), we need to be specific to make better communication, we don't want best effort, we want intelligent service, MANET solution is not specific for ITS but VIN solution may be, > and then use MANET. Seems built to order for MANET, no? What is MANET? how can you use it for ITS? MANET is a general not specific, > >> Other requirement of using parts of the VIN would be remote software >> update: extract the field of the VIN which represents Manufacturer ID, >> make an IPv6 multicast group of it, and send the update accordingly. > > For that, I would way prefer using the VIN as part of a DNS name, which is > then mapped to the IP address of the vehicle. This makes the problem more > amenable to flexible solutions, like allowing the IP address prefix to be > changed periodically, or allowing the vehicle ID to be associated in any > number of ways, other than just a VIN. ok, we can discuss/amend VIN to a better approach, AB From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com Thu Apr 4 19:07:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32AC21F967A; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:07:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o7s+EdJjxb7t; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og114.obsmtp.com (exprod7og114.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.215]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CB721F9644; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob114.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUV4x9rv1hcOJY0jWBoVJ1ivTv/s8crRJ@postini.com; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 19:07:50 PDT Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B261B8E26; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-02.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D974919005D; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:07:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com) Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-02.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.132]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:07:49 -0700 From: Ted Lemon To: "" Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMIRmAL55WRTfvUStGNkrMagsAZjFnGEAgAAbHwCAABEOgIABBfYAgAACrYD//+jy0IAAnukA Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 02:07:48 +0000 Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751326E3@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com><515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com><515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca><8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com><7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <301F74C7B05D4BA6A8258AFA491FD252@SRA4> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775131DEA@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <0A14CDC31F8F914498B2CA18D8F280AE@nominum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Michael Richardson , 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 02:07:52 -0000 On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Richard Roy wrote: > [RR>] As I am sure you know, privacy is a cross-layer issue. Any layer t= hat > compromises privacy, compromises it for the user/ITS station. That said, > FNTP/WSMP replace the IP layer with a different albeit null) networking > protocol (essentially a simple port mapping protocol that has as few as 3 > bytes of protocol "overhead") designed to be small and efficient and > tailored to the simple single-hop broadcast over capacity constrained RF > channels. So that possibly makes sense internally to the car, although possibly not. = It doesn't make a lot of sense to me between cars, except perhaps in the = most restricted applications. When you talk about capacity constrained RF= channels, it sounds like you're talking about car-to-car traffic, or car-t= o-infrastructure traffic. But this constrained port mapping protocol soun= ds way too restrictive for either of those contexts. From rogerj@gmail.com Thu Apr 4 22:41:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DFE21F96C5; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:41:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nXWIjoDeo-b; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x236.google.com (mail-ob0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3C121F96C4; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id ef5so3319709obb.41 for ; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:41:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=7poPi5cN+cR2OkCP/0ihOxUv8r+9TCmZtl6KUKEQKRs=; b=q+uCnMqHQuklRcN3CW7u4451jRpuVAT96muwaKDZgrWlF2cVnz4Phgrlt7O/r6v8fX SU9v1ErNoB2NOGplk8SxkvXC9MI3+AM7DrR0XN7k33RsvCdRT98BgRgeIY7AyT4HktRX jZ/5kmVRXeAnaRu+NYAFUhAmTb/eGx3SawFtKI9vp6Ok6SfSi6iuOVJsXrMnXarL41w9 LB0FhkTBkRua5dtgboRJh0SWbXF1EzON7MRQ3EtqCuvv4b7dzXAIEp3IeXqDreSomuTj IacfrW2YxrE1Qoz+mN1ytTwHA90p3AIL68S6DO2ru2+C7Cf9BT0juYFX2aAl+wL+0/I0 r1+A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.119.72 with SMTP id ks8mr6986524obb.23.1365140479120; Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.153.132 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:41:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 07:41:18 +0200 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Roger_J=F8rgensen?= To: Michael Richardson , 6man , "" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Roger_J=F8rgensen?= Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 05:41:20 -0000 On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > If I can derive the VIN from the prefix, I agree that it helps identify > the vehicle, but not really. If any of this stuff is going to be > useful, there will already be a collision avoidance protocol that will > tell each car (even when they are parked) where the other vehicles are, > so that they can be avoided. > > If I can rederive the prefix from the VIN, then it seems we also have > problems. > > What I'm saying is that I don't > think that there are *new* > privacy problems here. it's nothing really new with VIN's and IPv6, it's more that we again was on the way of doing what has been done before and considered a not so good idea. Doing 1 to 1 match between a hardware address and an IPv6 address, and add meaning into the IPv6 address instead of treating it for what it is, just an address that should be generated somehow other than directly from a hardware address. That it also has a privacy side issue with it don't make it any better. Plenty of suggestion on how that can be used have been mention. -- Roger Jorgensen | ROJO9-RIPE rogerj@gmail.com | - IPv6 is The Key! http://www.jorgensen.no | roger@jorgensen.no From sofiane.imadali.ietf@gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:45:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB6621F97C3; Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:45:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xiB0lzLpkoMe; Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x231.google.com (mail-la0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB3921F97BF; Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id fs13so3553088lab.8 for ; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:45:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3PSWY+Qo05SCm1h4gZTefwqZxxkGb0q9nDxivpAxzP0=; b=C03p3OZcpjcAR7Wo1cTs+1h4XJwq7v81xvT8aYscpHm2840MrAlJuYCClQRsVK/xFs w92ovZ2r7EiBd5nPZtHo+Qdch+kYctScAA28LUrn5Avlc2ScJBsX5n9fGECNUUDL9m5D L47WQ+jYrUBjUYaMVrxochJl5jeyXc0RFS84pOI6vhqSb4wxy5jPNWhW6y21NteiN3yN BfP5Ljz2ltecX1J6uIhrtMuvalxj6PEHhZZmFtyJVUuTimRoKHkFoLgj5SqC8BIOkTDU /6K9Am5/Md+qiKkWYynXGCXwBkc6Eec/wEs7CSuSM1+/rsx24sem6XYDeuXS8mqGV2Oh JoIw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.20.193 with SMTP id p1mr518087lae.33.1365176753619; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.127.6 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:45:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:45:53 +0200 Message-ID: From: sofiane Imadali To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Roger_J=F8rgensen?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Michael Richardson , 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:45:56 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Roger J=F8rgensen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > > >> If I can derive the VIN from the prefix, I agree that it helps identify >> the vehicle, but not really. If any of this stuff is going to be >> useful, there will already be a collision avoidance protocol that will >> tell each car (even when they are parked) where the other vehicles are, >> so that they can be avoided. >> >> If I can rederive the prefix from the VIN, then it seems we also have >> problems. >> >> What I'm saying is that I don't >> think that there are *new* >> privacy problems here. > > it's nothing really new with VIN's and IPv6, it's more that we again > was on the way of doing what has been done before and considered a not > so good idea. Doing 1 to 1 match between a hardware address and an > IPv6 address, and add meaning into the IPv6 address instead of > treating it for what it is, just an address that should be generated > somehow other than directly from a hardware address. > *Concerning the Interface ID part* I guess you're referring to the EUI-64 (MAC) -> IPv6 address. While that mapping (L2->L3 to form a L3 address) is clearly wrong (tying one *interface* identifier to the whole *prefix* with no notion of the *endpoint ID*, please have a look at Saltzer and Soch discussions about naming and addressing and the comments of John day among others), you could consider the IID generated from the VIN as a *Site Identifier*. The fact that it is similar and fits in the same IID part of the IPv6 address does not mean they map the same way. Our mapping could be used with more than one prefix as it does not relate to one interface. In a multi-homing scenario (3GPP + 11p) this could be useful. > That it also has a privacy side issue with it don't make it any > better. Plenty of suggestion on how that can be used have been > mention. > > *Concerning the prefix generation part* The privacy concerns are tied to the address scope used with your ID (the ID being the information you don't want to give). You can have a look at : http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brim-mobility-and-privacy-01 for more information. - With the ULA scope (*local* with a border router *to be defined*), the VIN-based ULA does not change the privacy concerns of RFC 4193 if defined internally, meaning that the Mobile Router is a border router. This is *exacltly* what our draft says. - When trying to define a larger scope, our draft says it is possible in the exact same way that RFC 4193 does: by exchanging the routes among the participants. Meaning, two peers with two ULA prefixes could exchange the routes and start communicating. Policy could be installed in order not to allow such exchanges to occur between random unknown vehicles. In our testing, we assume a closed loop under the control of one operator. - The case where global communications based on such prefixes traverse the infrastructure *are not defined in our draft*. Again, our draft has the same RFC 4193 security concerns but addresses the collisions problems related to the random-generation method of the prefix in a vehicular only context and assures the generation of a collision-free Provider-Independent addressing space. The argument that *ties the privacy to the ID* and *not to the scope of the addresses (actual definition of provacy)* could be addressed by one-way hashing a part of the VIN. Using this approach results in a randomization of certain parts (or all) of the VIN before mapping into IPv6 addresses. *We'll obviously lose the collision-free characteristic of this addressing space which can be guaranteed only by the use of bijective conversion methods*. The modelisation of the tussle between uniqueness requirements and privacy concerns (dilemma) by the use of VIN addressing is an ongoing work. Sofiane From joelja@bogus.com Sun Apr 7 08:08:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DAD21F8EA5; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iO48b63zmSdk; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297A021F8E7D; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joels-MacBook-Air.local (23-24-206-43-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [23.24.206.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r37F84tY037599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:08:05 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <51618BCC.7070800@bogus.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:07:56 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/20.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon , "" References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com><515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com><515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca><8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com><7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <301F74C7B05D4BA6A8258AFA491FD252@SRA4> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775131DEA@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751326E3@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> In-Reply-To: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751326E3@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Sun, 07 Apr 2013 15:08:08 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 15:08:11 -0000 On 4/4/13 7:07 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Richard Roy wrote: >> [RR>] As I am sure you know, privacy is a cross-layer issue. Any layer that >> compromises privacy, compromises it for the user/ITS station. That said, >> FNTP/WSMP replace the IP layer with a different albeit null) networking >> protocol (essentially a simple port mapping protocol that has as few as 3 >> bytes of protocol "overhead") designed to be small and efficient and >> tailored to the simple single-hop broadcast over capacity constrained RF >> channels. > So that possibly makes sense internally to the car, although possibly not. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me between cars, except perhaps in the most restricted applications. When you talk about capacity constrained RF channels, it sounds like you're talking about car-to-car traffic, or car-to-infrastructure traffic. But this constrained port mapping protocol sounds way too restrictive for either of those contexts. neither 802.11p or generic wifi are particularly capacity constrained. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com Sun Apr 7 08:24:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571F821F84E2; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:24:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ze9lAdZyqATf; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og115.obsmtp.com (exprod7og115.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.217]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E6121F84D9; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob115.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUWGPki29kKSdRUEKZ+IKTAatXPF4h9oM@postini.com; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:24:02 PDT Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7D11B88A2; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 195FD19005D; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com) Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.131]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:24:02 -0700 From: Ted Lemon To: joel jaeggli Thread-Topic: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHOMIRmAL55WRTfvUStGNkrMagsAZjFnGEAgAAbHwCAABEOgIABBfYAgAACrYD//+jy0IAAnukAgAP+ogCAAAR+gA== Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:24:01 +0000 Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775136E12@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com><515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com><515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca><8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com><7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130BFC@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <301F74C7B05D4BA6A8258AFA491FD252@SRA4> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775131DEA@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751326E3@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <51618BCC.7070800@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <51618BCC.7070800@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <67AF95556329314BB3EACB61DAA7870C@nominum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 15:24:11 -0000 On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:07 AM, joel jaeggli wrote: >> So that possibly makes sense internally to the car, although possibly no= t. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me between cars, except perhaps in t= he most restricted applications. When you talk about capacity constrained= RF channels, it sounds like you're talking about car-to-car traffic, or ca= r-to-infrastructure traffic. But this constrained port mapping protocol s= ounds way too restrictive for either of those contexts. > neither 802.11p or generic wifi are particularly capacity constrained. Right, I have subsequently learned that in fact there is work being done to= use wireless inside the car to save on wiring. This probably still has p= rivacy implications, since the RF shielding on the car is likely not good e= nough to completely prevent snooping, but if the identifiers being used are= this constrained, it may not be a significant issue. From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:47:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447E921F9330; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 02:47:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FWw0A-4pD9ei; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 02:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F31121F91C4; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 02:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r389l7q2001237 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:47:07 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r389l6S2003595; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:47:06 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r389l2rK008744; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:47:06 +0200 Message-ID: <51629216.8010206@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 11:47:02 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Manfredi, Albert E" References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E44F@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> <515DB606.5070003@gmail.com> <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E633@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <021E64FECA7E5A4699562F4E6671648101E633@XCH-PHX-503.sw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: 6man , "" Subject: Re: [its] I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:47:13 -0000 Le 04/04/2013 21:56, Manfredi, Albert E a écrit : >> -----Original Message----- From: Alexandru Petrescu >> [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] > >> Some applications involving the use of VIN may have been >> discussed. >> >> One requirement may come from V2V communications when >> infrastructure is not available: how to know the IP address of the >> seen vehicle when DNS is unavailable. > > If these comms are tactical, I would go to something more like > 802.11 ad-hoc network, and do the comms at layer 2. YEs, the link between egress WiFi interfaces of each vehicle (not their ingress WiFi interfaces - in-car), could form a typical 802.11 ad-hoc network. The communications on that link may be layer but could also be IP. > Alternatively, the vehicle can use its assigned IPv6 /64 prefix > (which need not be related to anything specific like a VIN), A /64 inside a vehicle may not be used to be assigned on the link _between_ vehicles, because there is a Router between the inside and the outside of the vehicle. This inside-vehicle prefix could be 'announced' to the other vehicle, but not assigned on that adhoc network. About the non-VIN aspect: the inside-vehicle IPv6 /64 prefix may indeed be tightly related to that vehicle, without using VIN. For example, it could be dynamically configured using DHCP: the MR in vehicle runs Mobile IP and then executes DHCP Prefix Delegation to its Home Agent. The prefix thus obtained is for that particular vehicle. When doing so, one may be interested to dynamicall configure always same prefix for that particular vehicle. That could be realized by using MAC address: do DHCP and put the MAC address of the requesting interface. But many egress interfaces (such as LTE) don't have MAC addresses. One may then put a NAI (Network Access Identifier). But NAI is under the form "user@example.com". But here there is no particular human user - it's the MR of a car (Mobile Router). Otherwise, one may do an address plan for all vehicles of one manufacturer and stamp the IPv6 /64 into one vehicle. That poses some questions about revoking addresses after 10year use, or whether they are Provider-Independent or Provider-Dependent. > and then use MANET. Seems built to order for MANET, no? In general yes, it looks much as MANET is well adapted for this vehicle-to-vehicle communications. However, there may be some difficulties that could be analyzed (which MANET protocol? and how does it do address configuration?). >> Other requirement of using parts of the VIN would be remote >> software update: extract the field of the VIN which represents >> Manufacturer ID, make an IPv6 multicast group of it, and send the >> update accordingly. > > For that, I would way prefer using the VIN as part of a DNS name, > which is then mapped to the IP address of the vehicle. This makes > the problem more amenable to flexible solutions, like allowing the > IP address prefix to be changed periodically, or allowing the vehicle > ID to be associated in any number of ways, other than just a VIN. I tend to agree. A solution could be devised where the VIN may be mapped into a DNS name and make place for more flexible solutions. There may also be some problems with relying on DNS when the vehicle is disconnected from the infrastructure. Or have a DNS server in a vehicle but make sure it's disconnected very often ('autonomous' mode of operation). I am not sure how this could be made to work. > By the way, this vehicle application of IPv6 is another example that > makes me kringe about the waste of even IPv6 address space, when we > continue to discourage the use of longer than 64-bit prefixes. I agree. I think address planning should consider avoid potential waste, and the way in which vehicle industry looks at vehicle lifetime planning (which is different than the typical computer lifetime planning). Alex > Bert > >> >> These are just ideas having been floated in various contexts. >> >> VIN-to-IPv6-InterfaceIdentifier is just one little thing which >> could or not could not work. >> >> Alex > > From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:16:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C6D21F9360 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZ-4zaVMYmwB for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6322721F931E for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r38DG8Uv004722 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:16:08 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r38DG79U025523 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:16:08 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r38DG71T016097 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:16:07 +0200 Message-ID: <5162C317.20508@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:16:07 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <18059.1364935739@sandelman.ca> <25144.1365003759@sandelman.ca> <31573.1365035117@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <31573.1365035117@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:16:10 -0000 Le 04/04/2013 02:25, Michael Richardson a écrit : > >>>>>> "Abdussalam" == Abdussalam Baryun >>>>>> writes: > Abdussalam> The OLSR should not be in scope, as we may agree of > Abdussalam> using geonetwork Abdussalam> for ITS then I think it is > not manet. > >>> OLSR is RFC3626, a MANET product, and OLSRv2 is a MANET draft. >>> So, my point is that ITS does not need to list OLSR (or DYMO >>> or...) as in scope if it lists MANET product as in scope. > > Abdussalam> I think it is better not making MANET product or others > Abdussalam> in charter as well. We need first to be sure to produce > Abdussalam> for ITS, because other groups don't consider all ITS > Abdussalam> requirements. IMO, the ITS needs a product that is able > Abdussalam> to work in an environment of many transport nodes > Abdussalam> communicating with many Lossy nodes and many mobile > nodes, > > If it is not in the charter, they it won't be clear to others that > we intend to talk about it, and the charter will flounder. > > If we charter to create another OLSRv2 or RPL or DYMO without being > clear why we can't use those (by being chartered to look at them and > do gap analysis!), then we will be told: no, go to MANET. > > That's why the charter references technologies that we will build > upon and possibly create requirements to improve. So Michael - what you're saying is that we should say 'MANET' in the Charter proposal, and should not say 'OLSR' nor 'RPL' etc. I think Abdussalam says that the protocols we may work on may be MANET protocols (OLSR, RPL) or not. That means that saying 'MANET' in charter is fine, and avoid saying 'OLSR' in charter. Alex From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:36:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D915021F93FB for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:36:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J1jIXuj43wN9 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44BE21F93F3 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r38Dasoq017155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:36:54 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r38Das0F003491 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:36:54 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r38DaoaN010814 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:36:54 +0200 Message-ID: <5162C7F2.3080401@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:36:50 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:36:58 -0000 Le 04/04/2013 03:30, Rex Buddenberg a écrit : > apparently this got mislaid. reposted: > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > What I did do -- comment in line. What I did not do -- reorganize. > > > > On Sun, 2013-03-17 at 19:39 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >> Dears, >> >> In Orlando we discussed with several participants, > > > > >> Intelligent Transportation Systems at IETF Draft Charter Proposal >> March 17th, 2013 http://ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> >> Intelligent Transportation Systems (its) >> ---------------------------------------- Current Status: Informal >> bar BoF >> >> Chairs: TBD TBD >> >> Assigned Area Director: TBD () >> >> Mailing list Address: its@ietf.org To Subscribe: >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its Archive: >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/its/current/maillist.html >> >> Draft Charter Proposal: >> >> Context ------- Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS) are >> composed of interconnected systems of machines; vehicles, mobile >> devices and fixed embedded devices (actuator and sensors). These >> machines communicate with fixed access points which are are >> deployed along terrestrial roads (e.g. Road-Side Units), and along >> shores of water paths; alternatively, mobile or fixed access points >> may be deployed above ground; they all offer wireless >> communications to equipment deployed in mobile vehicles (e.g. >> On-Board Units), in a secure manner. > > I'd feel better with language a bit like this: > > ITS is about several aspects of extending the internet to mobile > platforms. > > > > >> The entire system may be connected to the Internet; in certain >> cases the vehicles are disconnected from the Internet yet are >> inter-connected to each another, in an ad-hoc manner. > > ok. The characteristics here include - presence of radio-WANs (WAN > meaning router-router interconnect, as opposed to LANs -- topological > difference) > > But also: - lower capacity, higher noise than customary internet > plumbing - presence of mission critical needs and applications. - > volatile topology as vehicles (and the routers they contain) move. > > The internet's major engineering contribution is to provide perfect > delivery (e.g. bit-perfect, in order) over imperfect infrastructure. > There's no better place to take advantage of these characteristics > than here. > > >> Each moving vehicle may use disjoint and heterogeneous radio >> systems (e.g. a vehicle employs two or more different radios which >> may be used simultaneously, or alternatively). >> > The reality of radio is lower capacity than wired internet (by four > orders of magnitude) coupled with higher error rates than experienced > in a wired internet (also by orders of magnitude). > > Lower per-link capacity and the mission-critical availability needs > strongly indicate that multiple radio-WANs used in parallel must be > supported. > > The volatile topology also indicates that vehicle-to-vehicle daisy > chains should be supported. >> >> Communication security requirements are of paramount importance in >> the context of vehicular communications. > > ['Security' covers lots of territory. In order for the charter to be > at all useful, we need to narrow things down a little and mapping > onto the ISO model is a good way to do that.] > > Layer 6/7. Security of the content data is important: authenticity > is a universal, ubiquitous requirement -- the implications of spoofed > data (such as bogus position reports or bogus traffic controls) > should be obvious. Equally important, some data, such as medical > (e.g. the ambulance use case) must be confidential. Scope of this > requirement is end-to-end; there should be no place short of end > systems where the content data is not protected. > > Layer 3. Authenticity of routing information protocol messages is > important; spoofing would distort the internetwork topology. > >> Using IP should not introduce new risks, especially when >> safety-specific applications are involved. > > Compared to what? >> >> For example, crash avoidance inter-vehicle communication systems >> should be secured (safety of humans is at stake); as another >> practical example, within the vehicle, introducing IP >> communications to an otherwise non-IP rearview camera should not >> allow for attacker IP devices to DoS the displafy, or turn the >> volume to a sudden high. >> > The above is a use case demonstrating need for content-level > authenticity. > >> Certain security requirements may be generic IP communications >> security, whereas others may be specific to vehicular >> communications. >> > Layer 6/7 (content authenticity and confidentiality) are indeed > media-independent. (and platform independent). >> >> Due to the mobile nature of the system, several problems exist >> with respect to IP addressing and route establishment such that IP >> communications can be realized. In the case of 1-hop >> Vehicle-to-Vehicle communications (V2V), without infrastructure, >> there is a problem in identifying which subnets and addresses are >> used on the link between two vehicles; also there is a problem in >> deciding how one vehicle learns the prefix deployed in a vehicle in >> close vicinity. In the case of n-hop V2V2V communications there is >> a need of identification which address configuration and dynamic >> routing protocol should be employed. In the case of >> Vehicle-to-Infrastructure (V2I) communications, there is a problem >> in propagating the prefix contained in a vehicle to the routers of >> the infrastructures without destabilizing the Internet routing (a >> typical IP network is using mostly IP addresses topologically valid >> at a single point, and relatively stable routing system). >> >> One particular use case is under the form of an instrumented >> ambulance. The ambulance is connected to the Internet and offers >> wireless and wired access to a large number of individual >> equipments deployed in-vehicle. The ambulance may move through a >> traffic jam and signal its presence to nearby vehicles with visual >> means and also with communication packets. >> >> Automatic driving through traffic jams involves wireless >> communications between vehicles. Constant links between vehicles >> constitute good support for establishing IP communications. An IP >> device in one vehicle may signal its actual speed to another IP >> device in the vehicle nearby. >> >> The smart-city use case is also important for networking country- >> and world-wide transports. > > I don't know how 'smart-city' is defined. (Possibly related to that > is 'smart grid' in the US -- it's equally undefined.). Use cases > like this are valuable if we can distill requirements from them; if > the use case is so foggy that we can't distill requirements, then you > have clutter. > > >> The use case should lead to development of requirements and >> services for transports within cities, or countries, making them >> smart. The ITS technologies may use techniques from MANET and from >> RoLL adapted to this smart-city use case. One may need to consider >> ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking, and also add OLSRv2 as used in >> community networks. A hybrid routing protocol could be used. >> > You skipped from use case to potential solution. This omits the > requirements step between. And, IMHO, trespasses on what the > working group, not its charter, should be doing. >> >> Several Standards Development Organizations outside IETF work >> towards developing protocols for vehicular communications. In some >> cases IP protocols are used for transport, in other cases IP >> protocols are modified for purposes particular to vehicular >> communications (such as the use of geonetworking at ETSI, or >> 6lowpan intermediate layers at IPSO). The relevant SDOs and >> respective groups are: ETSI ITS, ISO TC 204, IEEE 802.11p, [..] > Why recite this? Aside from the obvious overlap? Because they all talk IP and vehicle in their confidential documents. > If you look at NPSTC, they have two major faults: 1) operators, not > planners and 2) locked into looking at extending the internet to > mobile platforms through the narrowband voice radio experience. We > gotta do better. > > Of the standards bodies that could possibly get the emergency > services aspect of reach to mobile, IETF has the best chance. > Expertise and perspective. > >> AUTOSAR, IPSO. Opportunities exist to develop liaisons with these >> SDOs. >> > How many of these are communications standards? And how many are > something else (like position/nav?). > >> >> A number of IETF protocols are being considered in the context of >> Intelligent Transportation Systems - most notably IPv6, Mobile >> IPv6, ND, ULA, DHCPv6, RPL, PMIPv6. Others, such as Global HAHA, >> are not excluded. At IETF several Working Groups such as 6MAN, >> V6OPS, DHC, MIF, MANET, DMM, RoLL, NETEXT, LISP produce work which >> is highly pertinent to the ITS context. > > These are all layer 3 RFCs, aren't they? YEs. > This gives rise to a scope question: some of the issues you raise > above are not layer 3 issues (end-end security for example). Are > you intending to confine to layer 3 or worry about higher/lower layer > issues within [its]? If you ask me, and compared that way, I would highly give preference to a layer 3 focus. On another hand, other layers may come into play as well (e.g. DNS is layer 7 but may be needed for dynamic layer-3 address auto-configuration). > The peril of 'all layers' is focus; the peril of layer 3 is the one > already raised -- what are you doing that, say, MANET, isn't already? > Said another way, what's the product? (Liaison with 101 other > standards bodies isn't a legitimate end, although it may be a > necessary means). > >> A gap analysis should be performed to identify whether work in >> these groups can be reused for vehicular communications. A problem >> statement draft should be written. >> >> New efforts at IETF are also relevant: 6TSCH. The 6TSCH effort >> dealing with time-synchronized 802.15.4 link layers may have >> pertinence to safety applications of ITS, and it should be >> clarified whether it pertains to long-range communication between >> vehicles. >> >> Potential new work items ------------------------ The following >> potential work items exist: >> >> Scenarios and requirements for vehicular communications will be >> developed which introduce at IETF the terms V2V, V2I, V2R and >> intra-vehicular paradigms. Define various possible scenarios for >> IP vehicular communications and identify requirements that are >> essential to support the defined scenarios. >> >> Practices and gap analysis for IP vehicular communications: >> document practices for the deployment of existing IP protocols and >> identify any limitation of the existing IP protocols to fulfill the >> scenarios and requirements for IP vehicular communications. If >> limitations are identified as part of the above deliverable, >> specify new protocols or extensions to existing protocols that >> removes the identified limitations to achieve IP vehicular >> communications. >> >> A problem statement draft should be written which documents the >> existing protocols, analyses the gaps of their behaviour in 1-hop >> V2V networks and expresses the need for a new solution. >> >> Supplementary work items ------------------------ >> Infrastructure-less 1-hop route exchanges between vehicles, or >> between vehicles and road-side units which are disconnected from >> the infrastructure. A widely-used link-scoped IP protocol should >> be reused for prefix exchanges between vehicles in close vicinity; >> a single subnet is used between such vehicles, which are otherwise >> disconnected from the infrastructure. >> >> IEEE 802.11p is a link layer technology specific to vehicular >> communications, and which may be used for IP for ITS. In certain >> places this link layer technology is named "G5". Several trials >> of using IP directly over 802.11p links (without intermediate >> layers) have been performed in laboratory environments. >> >> A vehicle may have a multiplicity of interfaces, and a multiplicity >> of addresses outside and inside the vehicle, at the same time, for >> different purposes. >> >> For the use of IPv6 addresses inside a vehicle it is necessary the >> addressing schemes which couled be employed, and which address >> auto-configuration mechanism(s) (or a combination thereof) should >> be employed such that to be inline with the in-vehicle application >> requirements scenarios. > > > There is a host of issues here; needs a sort. If you are going to > have a vehicle disconnected (or tenuously, intermittently connected) > to the internet, then there are several services that it either must > do without, do with but with delay, or provide itself. DHCP seems to > be what you had in mind here. But DNS and white pages (PKI) access > is also required (there are probably more ... and some are dependent > on just what apps you intend to support). I agree. >> For outside the vehicle, the use of IPv6 addresses in a subnet >> formed by the egress interfaces of the vehicles, in a 1-hop ad-hoc >> manner, is considered. >> >> For the fixed network deployed outside the vehicle - the use of >> Proxy Mobile IPv6 protocol on the fixed mobility management >> entities may prove advantageous to offer mobility to a moving >> network deployed in a vehicle. >> >> For the security inside the vehicular on-board network, >> requirements specific to vehicular communications should be >> formulated. >> >> For the security on the link between two vehicles, a secure >> Neighbor Discovery mechanism should be used. >> >> Milestones: Mar 2013 - Meet in Orlando done Jul 2013 - Meet in >> Berlin Jul 2013 - Present drafts "Scenarios and Requirements for IP >> in Intelligent Transportation Systems", and Gap Analysis > > Is this the task you envision? > > [its] is, of course, interesting (why I signed up to the newsgroup). > But I'm having a hard time figuring out what the intended goals are. I think we will first write requirements and scenarios, maybe problem statement, and maybe if time allows a gap analysis. > I built about half the course I used to teach around what I called > Plowshares into Swords Internet -- what are the differences between > garden variety internet (office, residence) and what we need ('we' > can be either military or emergency services, the analysis works the > same). The differences sort into four (only) bins: - availability and > survivability - security - reach to mobile platforms - QoS Control > Which sets you up for about 8 hours of lecture. > > Suggest that that might fit here. Ok, send it in. We may need it. Maybe we could write a draft with its contents and fit it in the Charter proposal. Alex > On Fri, 2013-03-29 at 12:03 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >> Discussions happened briefly in private about this Charter >> proposal. >> >> See attached for the new version. >> >> Most notably >> >> - it now mentions the URL of a web page >> http://www.lara.prd.fr/ietf-its cotnains documents presented at >> earlier meetings at IETF. >> >> - reflects a little bit better the potential work with respect to >> MANET/RoLL: write first requirements, then identify gaps, then if >> new work is needed, otherwise do work in conjunction with the group >> which 'owns' the existing protocol. >> >> I agree it is still a relatively large text. >> >> Comments welcome. >> >> Alex _______________________________________________ its mailing >> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > _______________________________________________ its mailing list > its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:47:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D2F21F93D2 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:47:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gnrsz7E+cpJL for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C7E21F8B98 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r38Dleju016107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:47:40 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r38DldnT008879 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:47:40 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r38DlZSh017712 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:47:39 +0200 Message-ID: <5162CA78.8090102@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:47:36 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [its] Updated Charter Proposal - ITS 9 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:47:42 -0000 Dear participants to ITS list, I have updated the proposal of Charter to reflect recent discussions. - shortened more formulations, briefly expanded a few. - promote overall MANET instead of particular MANET protocol. - particularized which security at what layer. - expanded the text of generic ETSI ITS geonetworking with IPv6 geo-distribution of messages. Comments welcome, Alex From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Tue Apr 9 01:34:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FAC21F861A for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:34:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.249, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WjZ+gIuvpbE3 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E6221F84B2 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r398Xxv0009678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:33:59 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r398Xxeu010792 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:33:59 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r398Xtj1019450 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:33:59 +0200 Message-ID: <5163D275.2070104@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:33:57 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] external SDOs (was: Updated proposal of Charter ITS) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:34:03 -0000 Le 04/04/2013 03:30, Rex Buddenberg a écrit : [...] >> Several Standards Development Organizations outside IETF work >> towards developing protocols for vehicular communications. In some >> cases IP protocols are used for transport, in other cases IP >> protocols are modified for purposes particular to vehicular >> communications (such as the use of geonetworking at ETSI, or >> 6lowpan intermediate layers at IPSO). The relevant SDOs and >> respective groups are: ETSI ITS, ISO TC 204, IEEE 802.11p, > > You should include several other relevant here, if you're going to > list any at all: - IEEE 802.16 - IEEE 802.22 - TIA LTE - any relevant > satcom stds bodies (this area is horribly confused) > > And it gets worse, much worse. In US, there are several entities > dealing with comms to vehicles: - US Congress has passed legislation > that includes 1) some $ and 2) direction to Commerce Department to > charter FirstNet, an autonomous corporation within the deparment > (don't ask me what that means) to provide emergency services > communications. - Commerce already has National Institute of > Standards and Technology (NIST); the legislation gives NIST charter > for public safety comms R&D. - NIST, in turn, has a cozy relationship > with National Public Safety Telecommunications Council which has > recently written up a Statement of Requirements for 'broadband' > communications. It's really about extending the internet to > emergency services platforms, but you can't use that heretical > language with this group. (and the statement of requirements, IMHO, > isn't very good). > > Why recite this? Aside from the obvious overlap? If you look at > NPSTC, they have two major faults: 1) operators, not planners and 2) > locked into looking at extending the internet to mobile platforms > through the narrowband voice radio experience. We gotta do better. > > Of the standards bodies that could possibly get the emergency > services aspect of reach to mobile, IETF has the best chance. > Expertise and perspective. Some of the SDOs see participants that are subscribed to this list as well. Some participants expressed interest in participating here: provide feedback, and ask for feedback relevant to that SDO. Not all SDOs listed above are interested in participating at IETF. I am trying to understand which ones are most likely to do so. To that end I will have to contact the liaison managers at IETF. As a side note, I was pointed to an additional emerging group about automotive at W3C: http://www.w3.org/community/autowebplatform/ Alex > >> AUTOSAR, IPSO. Opportunities exist to develop liaisons with these >> SDOs. >> > How many of these are communications standards? And how many are > something else (like position/nav?). > >> >> A number of IETF protocols are being considered in the context of >> Intelligent Transportation Systems - most notably IPv6, Mobile >> IPv6, ND, ULA, DHCPv6, RPL, PMIPv6. Others, such as Global HAHA, >> are not excluded. At IETF several Working Groups such as 6MAN, >> V6OPS, DHC, MIF, MANET, DMM, RoLL, NETEXT, LISP produce work which >> is highly pertinent to the ITS context. > > These are all layer 3 RFCs, aren't they? > > This gives rise to a scope question: some of the issues you raise > above are not layer 3 issues (end-end security for example). Are > you intending to confine to layer 3 or worry about higher/lower layer > issues within [its]? The peril of 'all layers' is focus; the peril > of layer 3 is the one already raised -- what are you doing that, say, > MANET, isn't already? Said another way, what's the product? > (Liaison with 101 other standards bodies isn't a legitimate end, > although it may be a necessary means). > >> A gap analysis should be performed to identify whether work in >> these groups can be reused for vehicular communications. A problem >> statement draft should be written. >> >> New efforts at IETF are also relevant: 6TSCH. The 6TSCH effort >> dealing with time-synchronized 802.15.4 link layers may have >> pertinence to safety applications of ITS, and it should be >> clarified whether it pertains to long-range communication between >> vehicles. >> >> Potential new work items ------------------------ The following >> potential work items exist: >> >> Scenarios and requirements for vehicular communications will be >> developed which introduce at IETF the terms V2V, V2I, V2R and >> intra-vehicular paradigms. Define various possible scenarios for >> IP vehicular communications and identify requirements that are >> essential to support the defined scenarios. >> >> Practices and gap analysis for IP vehicular communications: >> document practices for the deployment of existing IP protocols and >> identify any limitation of the existing IP protocols to fulfill the >> scenarios and requirements for IP vehicular communications. If >> limitations are identified as part of the above deliverable, >> specify new protocols or extensions to existing protocols that >> removes the identified limitations to achieve IP vehicular >> communications. >> >> A problem statement draft should be written which documents the >> existing protocols, analyses the gaps of their behaviour in 1-hop >> V2V networks and expresses the need for a new solution. >> >> Supplementary work items ------------------------ >> Infrastructure-less 1-hop route exchanges between vehicles, or >> between vehicles and road-side units which are disconnected from >> the infrastructure. A widely-used link-scoped IP protocol should >> be reused for prefix exchanges between vehicles in close vicinity; >> a single subnet is used between such vehicles, which are otherwise >> disconnected from the infrastructure. >> >> IEEE 802.11p is a link layer technology specific to vehicular >> communications, and which may be used for IP for ITS. In certain >> places this link layer technology is named "G5". Several trials >> of using IP directly over 802.11p links (without intermediate >> layers) have been performed in laboratory environments. >> >> A vehicle may have a multiplicity of interfaces, and a multiplicity >> of addresses outside and inside the vehicle, at the same time, for >> different purposes. >> >> For the use of IPv6 addresses inside a vehicle it is necessary the >> addressing schemes which couled be employed, and which address >> auto-configuration mechanism(s) (or a combination thereof) should >> be employed such that to be inline with the in-vehicle application >> requirements scenarios. > > > There is a host of issues here; needs a sort. If you are going to > have a vehicle disconnected (or tenuously, intermittently connected) > to the internet, then there are several services that it either must > do without, do with but with delay, or provide itself. DHCP seems to > be what you had in mind here. But DNS and white pages (PKI) access > is also required (there are probably more ... and some are dependent > on just what apps you intend to support). >> >> >> For outside the vehicle, the use of IPv6 addresses in a subnet >> formed by the egress interfaces of the vehicles, in a 1-hop ad-hoc >> manner, is considered. >> >> For the fixed network deployed outside the vehicle - the use of >> Proxy Mobile IPv6 protocol on the fixed mobility management >> entities may prove advantageous to offer mobility to a moving >> network deployed in a vehicle. >> >> For the security inside the vehicular on-board network, >> requirements specific to vehicular communications should be >> formulated. >> >> For the security on the link between two vehicles, a secure >> Neighbor Discovery mechanism should be used. >> >> Milestones: Mar 2013 - Meet in Orlando done Jul 2013 - Meet in >> Berlin Jul 2013 - Present drafts "Scenarios and Requirements for IP >> in Intelligent Transportation Systems", and Gap Analysis > > Is this the task you envision? > > [its] is, of course, interesting (why I signed up to the newsgroup). > But I'm having a hard time figuring out what the intended goals are. > > > I built about half the course I used to teach around what I called > Plowshares into Swords Internet -- what are the differences between > garden variety internet (office, residence) and what we need ('we' > can be either military or emergency services, the analysis works the > same). The differences sort into four (only) bins: - availability and > survivability - security - reach to mobile platforms - QoS Control > Which sets you up for about 8 hours of lecture. > > Suggest that that might fit here. > > > > > > > On Fri, 2013-03-29 at 12:03 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >> Discussions happened briefly in private about this Charter >> proposal. >> >> See attached for the new version. >> >> Most notably >> >> - it now mentions the URL of a web page >> http://www.lara.prd.fr/ietf-its cotnains documents presented at >> earlier meetings at IETF. >> >> - reflects a little bit better the potential work with respect to >> MANET/RoLL: write first requirements, then identify gaps, then if >> new work is needed, otherwise do work in conjunction with the group >> which 'owns' the existing protocol. >> >> I agree it is still a relatively large text. >> >> Comments welcome. >> >> Alex _______________________________________________ its mailing >> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > _______________________________________________ its mailing list > its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Apr 9 04:21:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316AB21F8E77 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 04:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mtmW-83PADN6 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 04:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B9721F8E63 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 04:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hj8so3529595wib.14 for ; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 04:21:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=rfdWUHYTUFHUzAmRdiQv2FDkcNUneGZ1Eesqb7/eMXk=; b=gnK6XMEMhZ3Nm4JLXva1ujXVeO9XbHKqjma3QQJNRx8YliTHEfQN9yPcXIq6Ov5+S5 hu/03OaBNLnZtISGFwMmblCwHyg0hpPSBPWW8gfoZKQKp7DT8Xp57CWQhp70ciDzMh0X cFmsPuUe4EPNKdkRcvIAQqL9mNtSjy8vDu+FtpU1WjtJ3s65xBEjuKtb2jAFyv9+rJpv XXmdkulxBCliQrdwtmclMF5kSpLLL5STzHmrbFYnACCL1CRq08biMnSiqu2ABwvDZ++r 0UKFbn0P7BaPaLcbd64x9uvJfrrY+0skK/QBPkxqQ569HxxhPvBskMSHY4xQaQtVUm4x mQoA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.143.50 with SMTP id sb18mr7952649wjb.44.1365506501171; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 04:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.76.209 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 04:21:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> References: <51557508.5050802@gmail.com> <1365039055.1741.113.camel@localhost> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:21:41 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Rex Buddenberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Updated proposal of Charter ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:21:46 -0000 Hi Rex, I think ITS is concerned with L4 and above, so Layer 3 (L3) will be based on the IP geonetwork other standards, comment below, On 4/4/13, Rex Buddenberg wrote: > apparently this got mislaid. reposted: > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > What I did do -- comment in line. > What I did not do -- reorganize. > > > > On Sun, 2013-03-17 at 19:39 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >> Dears, >> >> In Orlando we discussed with several participants, > > > > >> Intelligent Transportation Systems at IETF >> Draft Charter Proposal >> March 17th, 2013 >> http://ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> >> Intelligent Transportation Systems (its) >> ---------------------------------------- >> Current Status: Informal bar BoF >> >> Chairs: >> TBD >> TBD >> >> Assigned Area Director: >> TBD () >> >> Mailing list >> Address: its@ietf.org >> To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> Archive: >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/its/current/maillist.html >> >> Draft Charter Proposal: >> >> Context >> ------- >> Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS) are composed of >> interconnected systems of machines; vehicles, mobile devices and fixed >> embedded devices (actuator and sensors). These machines communicate >> with fixed access points which are are deployed along terrestrial >> roads (e.g. Road-Side Units), and along shores of water paths; >> alternatively, mobile or fixed access points may be deployed above >> ground; they all offer wireless communications to equipment deployed >> in mobile vehicles (e.g. On-Board Units), in a secure manner. > > I'd feel better with language a bit like this: > > ITS is about several aspects of extending the internet to mobile > platforms. Where did you ignore the intelligence, in MANET mostly no intelligence is requirement, but in ITS it is requirement (MUST). Regards AB From sm@resistor.net Tue Apr 9 12:58:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCD721F91AB for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hc+o-WmJhSe2 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE68B21F93E1 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r39JwUw3023018; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:58:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1365537516; bh=GZ2+mOKH9wjIysRP0uv3On/34PYKfMegUw32OZzFJU8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=FyG7lXm6hK1DscaDCZgZEZBKYIYG39U7up7A/tHCzuLWue5w/S/uWF6jnJSbsQ51p JjYW51iKP9iT4b+XRSYfNlZaKbQhJaluhFQBXYw0GSh3lIjI6fGyUJbKFfROZ19web 891MFwBLgX9BziJPc2d6hYCuUqpoYaT4B9SnLuTA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1365537516; i=@resistor.net; bh=GZ2+mOKH9wjIysRP0uv3On/34PYKfMegUw32OZzFJU8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=FaPYg7j3yQcxKFvg4wPpeEPBI/1TgWyDQAJvt0cTqVcqxPoZUYz5T1cL8fUcJzx4u DNMWia8Dery1j09lTXhJe7iVMpFEpPYyiUzFFHnZaSxWnv/b5CrouT0ZFDEnlddfZA PpofiHOSu+SerMuedvUvWB3Y2FBsLBma8myRNTNg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130409122438.0bf33cd8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:56:22 -0700 To: Michael Richardson From: SM In-Reply-To: <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Ted Lemon , its@ietf.org Subject: [its] The 802.11p sniffer and privacy (was: I-D Action: draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00.txt) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:58:40 -0000 Hi Michael, [Note that I have not read draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00] At 18:13 03-04-2013, Michael Richardson wrote: >So, we have assumed that a 802.11p sniffer sitting in Times Square can >sniff the prefix used by passing vehicles. If I put another sniffer >outside Wrigley Field, I can do correlation... how does knowing the VIN >help me? I already know it is the same car. This reminded me of the news story at http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/your-car-tracked-the-rapid-rise-of-license-plate-readers/ The correlation can be between what is going through (a vehicle) and who is going through (a person). I am in two minds about whether this stretches privacy or not. The question to ask is why does one has to know the VIN. Regards, -sm From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Wed Apr 10 00:52:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD0921F862A for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:52:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncMERqpi9KeT for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0190121F85ED for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r3A7pm2F007219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:51:48 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3A7pmML030840 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:51:48 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r3A7pau0030551 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:51:48 +0200 Message-ID: <51651A08.2010001@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:51:36 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20130409122438.0bf33cd8@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130409122438.0bf33cd8@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] The 802.11p sniffer and privacy X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:52:49 -0000 Le 09/04/2013 21:56, SM a écrit : > Hi Michael, > > [Note that I have not read draft-imadali-its-vinipv6-viid-00] It's ok and thanks for the feedback. > At 18:13 03-04-2013, Michael Richardson wrote: >> So, we have assumed that a 802.11p sniffer sitting in Times Square can >> sniff the prefix used by passing vehicles. If I put another sniffer >> outside Wrigley Field, I can do correlation... how does knowing the VIN >> help me? I already know it is the same car. > > This reminded me of the news story at > http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/your-car-tracked-the-rapid-rise-of-license-plate-readers/ Interesting story about privacy and vehicle license plates. > The correlation can be between what is going through (a vehicle) and who > is going through (a person). I am in two minds about whether this > stretches privacy or not. Where I live this correlation is common practice at law enforcement - speedcams fining at speed limits (radars), 'ticket' fining at forbidden parking, etc. - both take the plate and the driver's face, on a pretty wide scale. Not only cameras fixed on poles along the road but increasingly onboard other vehicles (such as openly advertised ecilop (police) cars, anonymized police cars and even public transportation buses. To such a point that it's no longer called 'video-surveillance' but 'video-protection' (government thinks security as well, not only protocol designers). Other than law enforcement, there is another common practice among the IT-minded - 'war driving'. It's building and maintaining large databases of WiFi hotspot areas together with their MAC addresses and ESSID. They assume these are fixed. This led to many ADSL operators' subscribers to freely connect to other house's WiFi if they are provided Internet by same ISP. The databases containing detail kind and position of speedcams, as well as the detail of houses' hotspots are public information (provided people agree to provide it). The privacy risks of intelligent correlation among them may be considered as important - but maybe only _if_ owners agree to let that public. Similar to that WiFi hotspot situation, one wouldn't be surprised to see new Operators of 802.11p networks along the road, and subsequently efforts to map these networks into publicly available databases. > The question to ask is why does one has to know the VIN. That is a good question, and one may imagine many applications in which VIN could be used beyond its simple vehicle identification meaning and more related to Internet applications. Because when deploying services on wide scale one needs unique identifiers. For example, the ESSIDs advertised by a vehicle. Or other services advertised by vehicles: available-for-driving..operator.com (just to name one). Alex > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From sm@resistor.net Wed Apr 10 08:28:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4648021F98E1 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RCebteMfapvB for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094F621F9771 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3AFSItK021257; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:28:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1365607703; bh=TlQUBfy6GTBZBQBQLvgRDoqTylwgx5uVLbkthDJujsE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=riCz5eCHHf2cXSCMXfH75ytxznjEiTeosN4Bhc7UX2ewMRTbXBrqkmnHAiNNY0MAP wE6+zCU3YhtIcZLvZ+MsWLjwebRxEXNPRsOttQ0rAsPWyXGu6nLj6Hp26K1Nf4aGLO oz67Xt0rS2HAR63OhcJLds6Smyz1hnZUu08R2lQo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1365607703; i=@resistor.net; bh=TlQUBfy6GTBZBQBQLvgRDoqTylwgx5uVLbkthDJujsE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=EbURzjYhm9syDKkwMcSdxB9VpvNquRpNCPl61Ji0jWy0jS9Aw5EmON24W/lECiO80 SX9ROXUY1YKPRHKeM3VqIi1AW79XTb4TrqvNFndZE7TlcjFkmN2XFqALOKn8j28szg pdtm6dVO/JswCgvBFuz6oSiclMvtz0cXlVNJsTDE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130410015432.0cd695c0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:19:14 -0700 To: Alexandru Petrescu From: SM In-Reply-To: <51651A08.2010001@gmail.com> References: <515733A5.8080509@gmail.com> <5157C8CF.1060503@si6networks.com> <515AFF7A.80102@gmail.com> <515BC0DA.6040203@si6networks.com> <515C2CFF.3060809@gmail.com> <28368.1365004823@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630775130626@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <7858.1365038000@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20130409122438.0bf33cd8@resistor.net> <51651A08.2010001@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] The 802.11p sniffer and privacy X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:28:37 -0000 Hi Alex, At 00:51 10-04-2013, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >Where I live this correlation is common practice at law enforcement >- speedcams fining at speed limits (radars), 'ticket' fining at >forbidden parking, etc. - both take the plate and the driver's >face, on a pretty wide scale. Not only cameras fixed on poles along >the road but increasingly onboard other vehicles (such as openly >advertised ecilop (police) cars, anonymized police cars and even >public transportation buses. To such a point that it's no longer >called 'video-surveillance' but 'video-protection' (government >thinks security as well, not only protocol designers). > >Other than law enforcement, there is another common practice among >the IT-minded - 'war driving'. It's building and maintaining large >databases of WiFi hotspot areas together with their MAC addresses >and ESSID. They assume these are fixed. This led to many ADSL >operators' subscribers to freely connect to other house's WiFi if >they are provided Internet by same ISP. > >The databases containing detail kind and position of speedcams, as >well as the detail of houses' hotspots are public information >(provided people agree to provide it). The privacy risks of >intelligent correlation among them may be considered as important - >but maybe only _if_ owners agree to let that public. > >Similar to that WiFi hotspot situation, one wouldn't be surprised to >see new Operators of 802.11p networks along the road, and >subsequently efforts to map these networks into publicly available databases. There was this comment [1] from Ted Lemon: "The fact that the VIN is printed on the windshield is not as practical a problem as it would be if the VIN could be trivially retrieved electronically." There is the practical problem of capturing information (see above for various cases) due to physical constraints. I could look at the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) by looking at the printout on the vehicle. The (unconfirmed) accuracy of a camera capturing the VIN is between 6% up to 82%. I don't know whether existing cameras actually do that. >That is a good question, and one may imagine many applications in >which VIN could be used beyond its simple vehicle identification >meaning and more related to Internet applications. Because when >deploying services on wide scale one needs unique identifiers. > >For example, the ESSIDs advertised by a vehicle. Or other services >advertised by vehicles: available-for-driving..operator.com >(just to name one). It's difficult to assess the implications of the above. In my individual opinion there is a tendency to create identifiers for uniqueness. It's not bad until they get used as part of a communication protocol for the Internet instead of within the communication. If I take the Internet applications example (see above) I could send that information with the consent of the user instead making it an inherent part of the system where it has to be sent no matter what. In the other example I am putting information in DNS as a matter of convenience. In both cases people will reuse and misuse the information in ways I did not foresee. If I have to dumb down the discussion I would say that the technology developed within this group is to help stop people from speeding. There is a significant number of people who will hate that. :-) Seriously, there will be a sense of discomfort as more people are aware of the silent listeners [2] [3]. Regards, -sm 1. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg17552.html 2. http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1098&context=jpc 3. http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130325/srep01376/full/srep01376.html From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Fri Apr 12 05:19:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD07A21F8A68 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 05:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xy-rT7NE7Yh5 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 05:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194D321F8A40 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 05:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r3CCJTJd005695 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:19:29 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3CCJTam010636 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:19:29 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r3CCJSc8005167 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:19:29 +0200 Message-ID: <5167FBD0.6010409@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:19:28 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <5162CA78.8090102@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5162CA78.8090102@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010408040604010900080704" Subject: [its] Updated Charter Proposal - ITS 9 - with attachment X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 12:19:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010408040604010900080704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am sorry, here is the attachment. Alex Le 08/04/2013 15:47, Alexandru Petrescu a écrit : > Dear participants to ITS list, > > I have updated the proposal of Charter to reflect recent discussions. > > - shortened more formulations, briefly expanded a few. > - promote overall MANET instead of particular MANET protocol. > - particularized which security at what layer. > - expanded the text of generic ETSI ITS geonetworking with IPv6 > geo-distribution of messages. > > Comments welcome, > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > --------------010408040604010900080704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; name="its-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="its-9.txt" Intelligent Transportation Systems at IETF Draft Charter Proposal April 8th, 2013 http://ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its Intelligent Transportation Systems (its) ---------------------------------------- Current Status: Informal Chairs: TBD TBD Assigned Area Director: TBD () Mailing list Address: its@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/its/current/maillist.html Additional web page http://www.lara.prd.fr/ietf-its Draft Charter Proposal: Context ------- Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS) ITS is about several aspects of extending the Internet to mobile platforms. They are composed of interconnected systems of machines; vehicles, mobile devices and fixed embedded devices (actuators and sensors). These machines communicate with fixed access points which are are deployed along terrestrial roads (e.g. Road-Side Units), and along shores of water paths; alternatively, mobile or fixed access points may be deployed above ground; they all offer wireless communications to equipment deployed in mobile vehicles (e.g. On-Board Units), in a secure manner. The entire system may be connected to the Internet with radio-WANs; in certain cases the vehicles are disconnected from the Internet yet are inter-connected to each another, in an ad-hoc manner. Each moving vehicle may use disjoint and heterogeneous radio systems (e.g. a vehicle employs two or more different radios which may be used simultaneously, or alternatively). They have the following characteristics: - lower capacity, higher noise than customary Internet plumbing. - presence of mission critical needs and applications. - volatile topology as vehicles (and the routers they contain) move. - stable in-vehicle network structure. - bit-perfect delivery over imperfect network structures. Authenticity of routing information protocol messages is important. Using IP should not introduce new risks (compared to static IP environments), especially when safety-specific applications are involved. For example, inter-vehicular communication systems for crash avoidance should be secured (safety of humans is at stake). The risks of spoofed data such as bogus position reports should be mitigated. Medical records exchanged at an incident scene should remain confidential. As another content-level authenticity requirements the vehicle, introducing IP communications to an otherwise non-IP rearview camera should not allow for attacker IP devices to DoS the display, or turn the volume to a sudden high. Certain security requirements may be about generic IP communications security, whereas others may be specific to vehicular communications. Due to the mobile nature of the system, several problems exist with respect to IP addressing and route establishment such that IP communications can be realized. In the case of 1-hop Vehicle-to-Vehicle communications (V2V), without infrastructure, there is a problem in identifying which subnets and addresses are used on the link between two vehicles; also there is a problem in deciding how one vehicle learns the prefix deployed in a vehicle in close vicinity. In the case of n-hop V2V2V communications there is a need of identification which address configuration and dynamic routing protocol should be employed. In the case of Vehicle-to-Infrastructure (V2I) communications, there is a problem in propagating the prefix contained in a vehicle to the routers of the infrastructures without destabilizing the Internet routing (a typical IP network is using mostly IP addresses topologically valid at a single point, and relatively stable routing system). One particular use case is under the form of an instrumented ambulance. The ambulance is connected to the Internet and offers wireless and wired access to a large number of individual equipments deployed in-vehicle. The ambulance may move through a traffic jam and signal its presence to nearby vehicles with visual means and also with communication packets. Similar additiona use cases (e.g. moving network in a spacesuit) Automatic driving through traffic jams involves wireless communications between vehicles. Constant links between vehicles constitute good support for establishing IP communications. An IP device in one vehicle may signal its actual speed to another IP device in the vehicle nearby. The smart-city use case should lead to development of requirements and services for transports within cities, scaling up to the size of a country or state highway/public-transit system. Requirements particular to this use-case should be derived. ITS will consider and MAY profile technologies from MANET and/or from ROLL adapted to this smart-city use case. Extensions to routing protocols are out of scope, but requirements for those extensions are in scope. ETSI IPv6 over GeoNetworking, and otherwise IPv6-based distribution of content in a geographic area, are specifically in scope. Additional similar use-cases may be described in a use case document. For the IP addressing and mobility aspects of in-vehicle subnetworks, single-subnet V2V, and single-subnet V2I, the WG will consider and if necessary, profile, existing IPv6 network protocols. One of the link-layers considered in vehicular communications is IEEE 802.11p. Several Standards Development Organizations outside IETF work towards developing protocols for vehicular communications, in a non overlapping manner. In some cases IP protocols are used for transport, in other cases IP protocols are modified for purposes particular to vehicular communications. The group ISO TC204 describes ITS station architecture, IPv6 networking and security, and optimizations. The group ETSI ITS describes IPv6 for networking in vehicles. IEEE TGp, AUTOSAR and IPSO describe other aspects of vehicular communications. When possible, liaisons will be established with these organizations. This group will survey these SDO's documents to identify how it relates to this group's work. Potential new work items ------------------------ The following potential work items exist: Scenarios and requirements for vehicular communications will be developed which introduce at IETF the terms V2V, V2I, V2R and intra-vehicular paradigms. Define various possible scenarios for IP vehicular communications and identify requirements that are essential to support the defined scenarios. Practices and gap analysis for IP vehicular communications: document practices for the deployment of existing IP protocols and identify any limitation of the existing IP protocols to fulfill the scenarios and requirements for IP vehicular communications. One particular practice to document is the IP addressing architecture within a vehicle, between vehicles, and between vehicle and infrastructure: the preferred address auto-configuration methods, the requirements for address stability and scope of visibility (in-vehicle, to vehicles nearby, to infrastructure, to Internet, etc.) A problem statement draft should be written which documents the problem which is a real-world problem, points precisely to the protocols which may break, and may easily lead to a solution that can be designed in a straightforward manner. The use of IP over 802.11p - with or without intermediary layers, with or without modifications - will de described. For the security inside the vehicular on-board network, requirements specific to vehicular communications should be formulated. For the security on the link between two vehicles, a secure Neighbor Discovery mechanism should be used. Milestones: Jul 2013 - Meet in Berlin Jul 2013 - Present drafts "Scenarios and Requirements for IP in Intelligent Transportation Systems", and Gap Analysis Jul 2013 - Present drafts on Route Exchange between vehicles Jul 2013 - Present MANET landscape for V2V2V Nov 2013 - Present status from ISO Nov 2013 - Present gap analysis and requirements Mar 2014 - Present problem statement Jul 2014 - Present solution drafts Nov 2014 - Present solution drafts --------------010408040604010900080704-- From lear@cisco.com Mon Apr 15 03:12:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1E821F8DA6 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OJOhuXyErDJt for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1513F21F8C9B for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:12:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8923; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1366020762; x=1367230362; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject; bh=TPrmmWmply9Gcc3Lcu1pTerjVnk+W/MqmXQJbTEqIyA=; b=O3VmVHySZrO0ddjO5iKFNyYZM+7ryYVd3uHiTm7KvNVROQTgfTGVN3TW 0cGDZYNXrwfVvL6SWI2Yd6J8K/xkIKrVx//JB8d6Ddl+HcgCOnYXGKoJz jbw6PRxmEcMlIg0fkHNSNcW67fvsNbyi7VeI5c32rJhB4iw1eGSwdbrGT U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AggFABLSa1GQ/khR/2dsb2JhbABQgwaDZoVeuHsWdIJJSAcGGiMMCgsCCwMCAQIBKy0IAQEQB4d5jheMMo5SkXOPKIIkgRMDlwWREYMNOg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,474,1363132800"; d="scan'208,217";a="152898330" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Apr 2013 10:12:40 +0000 Received: from mctiny.local ([10.61.161.48]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3FACcgL011350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 10:12:38 GMT Message-ID: <516BD296.4030700@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:12:38 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070203090901020801030608" Subject: [its] A bit of discussion towards a BoF X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 10:12:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070203090901020801030608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone, I've just had a very good discussion with Alexandru about how to proceed toward an ITS BoF. Let me state on the outset that I am NOT a subject matter expert when it comes to intra- or inter- vehicle communications. This is merely advice to help focus the work. To begin with, let me recommend that everyone who is interested read two RFCs: * RFC-5434 give you guidance on how to hold a successful BoF * RFC-5218 talks about What Makes for a Successful Protocol Quoting from RFC-5434: In those cases [where there is an intent to create a WG], the goal of the BOF is to demonstrate that the community has agreement that: - there is a problem that needs solving, and the IETF is the right group to attempt solving it. - there is a critical mass of participants willing to work on the problem (e.g., write drafts, review drafts, etc.). - the scope of the problem is well defined and understood, that is, people generally understand what the WG will work on (and what it won't) and what its actual deliverables will be. - there is agreement that the specific deliverables (i.e., proposed documents) are the right set. - it is believed that the WG has a reasonable probability of having success (i.e., in completing the deliverables in its charter in a timely fashion). As I understand from Alexandru, there are three separate activities that come under the rubrik of vehicle communications: * Establishment of networking from vehicle to ground * Establishment of networking from vehicle to vehicle * Alerts to vehicles based on locality I've suggested to Alexandru that a successful BoF proposal will clearly state these points, taking into account existing work. E.g., it should be shown why existing solutions, if any, aren't appropriate. If the charter is organized in this fashion, one can clearly see that there are three related work items. I write this by way of saying I think the current charter is a bit long and can be trimmed down into: 1. What the problem space is 2. What specific areas will be addressed by a WG, complete with reasonable starting points in the form of drafts. 3. What is left for others 4. Relationship to other organizations 5. Milestones That's the charter. What happens in a BoF is different. There is a substantial body of existing work. That shouldn't be scattered in a charter, but the relationship to other bodies must be mentioned. Furthermore, someone should propose a map of what we think is appropriate for the IETF and why and what is NOT appropriate, perhaps being done by other organizations. For instance we wouldn't typically get into L2 framing. In my own head, a specification for IP over 802.11p sounds like a winner if it varies from any other 802.11 network, as we don't do one line RFCs. Michael and Ted have both mentioned that having fewer goals is better. Perhaps this is one way to trim. The output for V2V might be as simple as an informational document on out to apply existing solutions (e.g., MANET, RPL, etc). If not, then someone has to say why these aren't appropriate. A strong argument one way or the other (or both) should be made. In answering the question as to whether the IETF is the right place to do the work, one test is whether the right people are actually in the room. Will this stuff be implemented in the car? That will go to how important the work is. Very likely the AD would ask the question, “How many people would implement this sort of thing if well specified?” If no hands go up, that won't be good. Eliot --------------070203090901020801030608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <individual hat>

Hi everyone,

I've just had a very good discussion with Alexandru about how to proceed toward an ITS BoF.  Let me state on the outset that I am NOT a subject matter expert when it comes to intra- or inter- vehicle communications.  This is merely advice to help focus the work.

To begin with, let me recommend that everyone who is interested read two RFCs:
  • RFC-5434 give you guidance on how to hold a successful BoF
  • RFC-5218 talks about What Makes for a Successful Protocol

Quoting from RFC-5434:

   In those cases [where there is an intent to create a WG], the goal of the
   BOF is to demonstrate that the community has agreement that:

      - there is a problem that needs solving, and the IETF is the right
        group to attempt solving it.

      - there is a critical mass of participants willing to work on the
        problem (e.g., write drafts, review drafts, etc.).

      - the scope of the problem is well defined and understood, that
        is, people generally understand what the WG will work on (and
        what it won't) and what its actual deliverables will be.

      - there is agreement that the specific deliverables (i.e.,
        proposed documents) are the right set.

      - it is believed that the WG has a reasonable probability of
        having success (i.e., in completing the deliverables in its
        charter in a timely fashion).


As I understand from Alexandru, there are three separate activities that come under the rubrik of vehicle communications:

  • Establishment of networking from vehicle to ground
  • Establishment of networking from vehicle to vehicle
  • Alerts to vehicles based on locality

I've suggested to Alexandru that a successful BoF proposal will clearly state these points, taking into account existing work.  E.g., it should be shown why existing solutions, if any, aren't appropriate.  If the charter is organized in this fashion, one can clearly see that there are three related work items.  I write this by way of saying I think the current charter is a bit long and can be trimmed down into:

1.  What the problem space is
2.  What specific areas will be addressed by a WG, complete with reasonable starting points in the form of drafts.
3.  What is left for others
4.  Relationship to other organizations
5.  Milestones

That's the charter.  What happens in a BoF is different.

There is a substantial body of existing work.  That shouldn't be scattered in a charter, but the relationship to other bodies must be mentioned.  Furthermore, someone should propose a map of what we think is appropriate for the IETF and why and what is NOT appropriate, perhaps being done by other organizations.  For instance we wouldn't typically get into L2 framing.

In my own head, a specification for IP over 802.11p sounds like a winner if it varies from any other 802.11 network, as we don't do one line RFCs.  Michael and Ted have both mentioned that having fewer goals is better.  Perhaps this is one way to trim.

The output for V2V might be as simple as an informational document on out to apply existing solutions (e.g., MANET, RPL, etc).  If not, then someone has to say why these aren't appropriate.  A strong argument one way or the other (or both) should be made.

In answering the question as to whether the IETF is the right place to do the work, one test is whether the right people are actually in the room.  Will this stuff be implemented in the car?  That will go to how important the work is.  Very likely the AD would ask the question, “How many people would implement this sort of thing if well specified?”  If no hands go up, that won't be good.

Eliot

--------------070203090901020801030608-- From roland.bless@kit.edu Mon Apr 15 05:35:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC31621F9349 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YERTxzvfoB3s for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B22D21F8F44 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 05:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 id 1URidG-0000wW-MC; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:35:44 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82B76A806D0; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:35:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <516BF41A.7080803@kit.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:35:38 +0200 From: "Bless, Roland (TM)" Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eliot Lear References: <516BD296.4030700@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <516BD296.4030700@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ATIS-AV: Kaspersky (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1366029344.084026000 Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] A bit of discussion towards a BoF X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:35:50 -0000 Hi Eliot, Am 15.04.2013 12:12, schrieb Eliot Lear: > I write this by way of saying I think the current charter is a bit long and can be trimmed down into: > > 1. What the problem space is > 2. What specific areas will be addressed by a WG, complete with reasonable starting points in the form of drafts. > 3. What is left for others > 4. Relationship to other organizations > 5. Milestones > > That's the charter. What happens in a BoF is different. +1 also for everything else you wrote. Regards, Roland From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Tue Apr 16 04:05:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE19121F9698 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2013 04:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyVIUVtpqYyH for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2013 04:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D691C21F9697 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2013 04:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r3GB5RnC013911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:05:28 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3GB5RHP003743; Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:05:27 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r3GB5Rj4028759; Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:05:27 +0200 Message-ID: <516D3077.4030806@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:05:27 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eliot Lear References: <516BD296.4030700@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <516BD296.4030700@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] A bit of discussion towards a BoF X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:05:31 -0000 Le 15/04/2013 12:12, Eliot Lear a écrit : [...] > As I understand from Alexandru, there are three separate activities > that come under the rubrik of vehicle communications: > > * Establishment of networking from vehicle to ground > > * Establishment of networking from vehicle to vehicle > > * Alerts to vehicles based on locality In general yes, that is correct. However, I think I mis-explained the current status of the three intended activities. They are: - establishment of networking from vehicle to vehicle. - IPv6-straight-over-802.11p. - IPv6-based distribution of content in a geographic area, geonetworking, alerts to vehicles based on locality. Establishment of networking from vehicle to ground is considered achieved to a large extent, by using existing IPv6 protocols. This would be out of scope of work. Alex From alison@she-devel.com Mon Apr 22 09:51:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A4B21F93FC for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jCFkHFmKJSle for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5915A21F93F9 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 9so7343933iec.22 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=2j+gafwtfEFRAR58M/AHBZb8QQSahTinQj04Qz5EG0w=; b=Kamdiq5AkY1gTK7JInBoSQp9TYO/9EjSgC+Td6qTY5nwoseIxEpVWCiU8DMGKnMNOS 4lH61xSH7UhnmEffUTERijbUjREv0AiCtFLeGLszmFkNmZsT859Gc98dxpGTs+2/gJwz eqw8zLMb+7TxS4Ep4nmIn16a4+K/5f4hD6E1cYV4fpx3OwdVEf2XFZXRW4F0+ZVlu7iV RMF2d9+5xYcz1hi4I67c3RKrkCq7v7vlfOdSiwcstcbVUZpoX65riLEQAa/XQPecMX4C 6Apr9u6WmOl1QwuxyoJO+K4ZQmufcR35xx6GILd4QHWgzme5JvSI/+jfemUNfJ1CxdO8 Y2Uw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.148.71 with SMTP id kf7mr13261259icc.42.1366649486873; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:51:26 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnT8GPTBjP1BUBu+868kh2HBmXrpIRz1OwCD68iummc2Ms9c/YCzksihU3xsGrG7RgAo3sc Subject: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations with internet backend? X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:51:33 -0000 If so, this "Infosec Risks of Charging Electric Cars" presentation may be relevant: http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2013ams/materials/D2T2%20-%20Ofer%20S= hezaf%20-%20The%20Infosec%20Risks%20of%20Charging%20Electric%20Cars.pdf =BB --=20 Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou From buddenbergr@gmail.com Mon Apr 22 11:06:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E5421E8044 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRBofN0pmq0B for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f176.google.com (mail-pd0-f176.google.com [209.85.192.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E0621F925A for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id r11so3725124pdi.7 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to :references:content-type:x-mailer:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DNSWluYXEkwmelJdKnC2Ey8upp3I2KXLy9pFFb1ERf4=; b=k7F5LcyTrypf0HLZNZ6pwvUC02DlNsLYhdY6B7cwS2Wa5ocifljSKy8Ut6gLmWhvse J8shRO3KkK9A5U1uPcCmWBwF8YnPchbP2Z+k5DeSbkNs0nNBQSwIz2u4G6/fMZcBdsuo 9lSEGqGuIK1bEV3IMB7PEHHQw3CUKmvr/I4G6dN7Yvt9m6C+bCKQvoM/khdlskdg2szD 1vnPVGe8s1Eu8NjfWRNm53FKJuql4pm8iH17aWRZ1lVB2tSGv71yGnmZyShhXMmsRS2g jq+DmoqSdhdxSTVSrEySB/wQ/+NlgoWjzXw6+FNpTeH2JdNnFFvZPLj9QTWbjdtMg9dl lZtg== X-Received: by 10.68.195.234 with SMTP id ih10mr20496310pbc.162.1366653989704; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-50-131-118-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [50.131.118.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ag4sm9696877pbc.20.2013.04.22.11.06.28 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1366653987.1767.97.camel@localhost> From: Rex Buddenberg To: Alison Chaiken Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:06:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.6.3 (3.6.3-2.fc18) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations with internet backend? X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:06:31 -0000 Alison, You have a (quite common) non-sequitor. Foggy thinking vis security. Almost all of the briefing has to do with content security -- content authentication and content confidentiality. The scope of these security needs is almost always end-to-end, meaning that they can only be addressed at layer 6/7. By contrast, MANET protocols are layer 3 protocols. The security measures being worked for the MANET (and LOADng) have to do with routing table integrity. Not content integrity. Figures 25 and 27 in the deck show the problem quite clearly: the pcb board and the charging station are end systems. Which puts them outside the scope of the MANET security measures. The way to sort this out; map onto the ISO model: Layer | object protected | scope | example ------------------------------------------------ 6/7 | content msg | end-to-end | S/MIME, ssh - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4/5 | session |socket-socket | SSL - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 3 | IP datagram | enclave | VPN - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1/2 | frame |single segment| WPI - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - We're agreeing that the content needs to be protected, to prevent theft, for example. The correct remedy for that is authenticity of the content, map onto the layer 6/7 line in the chart. On Mon, 2013-04-22 at 09:51 -0700, Alison Chaiken wrote: > If so, this "Infosec Risks of Charging Electric Cars" presentation may > be relevant: > > http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2013ams/materials/D2T2%20-%20Ofer%20Shezaf%20-%20The%20Infosec%20Risks%20of%20Charging%20Electric%20Cars.pdf > » > From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Tue Apr 23 00:44:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BF421F89DB for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10GLOvVpnK40 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE2821F8972 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r3N7i6fW000698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:44:06 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3N7i5nt005820 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:44:06 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r3N7hsEL008348 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:44:05 +0200 Message-ID: <51763BBA.3050706@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:43:54 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations with internet backend? X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 07:44:08 -0000 Le 22/04/2013 18:51, Alison Chaiken a écrit : > If so, this "Infosec Risks of Charging Electric Cars" presentation > may be relevant: > > http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2013ams/materials/D2T2%20-%20Ofer%20Shezaf%20-%20The%20Infosec%20Risks%20of%20Charging%20Electric%20Cars.pdf Allison, Thanks for forwarding the presentation. I dont remember quite well, but I think there may exist efforts to make IPv6 work over EV charging station specifics, similar to what IPv6 works over PLC (power-line communications) at home. This includes but is not limited to IPv6 address auto-configuration between the vehicle and the charging station, such that the EV gets access to Internet via that cable. There are additional expectations about getting to Internet via such charging stations or any other similar post for payment or for authentication. I have seen it with RFID auth and/or payment slots for bicycles, combustion-engine parking space, etc. The security of that may be the existing WiFi security. Are there end-to-end security risks about this - I guess yes. Letting aside the risks of initial innocent deployments assuming everyone is kind, there may exist risks related to lack of security features in protocols. These could be identified. Is the assumed security of the cable (as opposed to wireless) leading to lack of IP protocol security on that cable? Could I build a Y out of that cable and do Man-in-the-Middle? Or will ND security protect this? Alex From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Apr 23 06:11:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF62E21F96A0 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BNrMRuAgenWk for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BEC321F969D for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44AF2016D for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id EE46763A58; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD36E638E7 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:10:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: its@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <51763BBA.3050706@gmail.com> References: <51763BBA.3050706@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations with internet backend? X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:11:00 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Alexandru" =3D=3D Alexandru Petrescu = writes: >> If so, this "Infosec Risks of Charging Electric Cars" >> presentation may be relevant: >>=20 >> http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2013ams/materials/D2T2%20-%20O= fer%20Shezaf%20-%20The%20Infosec%20Risks%20of%20Charging%20Electric%20Cars.= pdf Alexandru> Allison, Alexandru> Thanks for forwarding the presentation. Thanks also from me.=20=20 I think that the risks of physical attack require a rethink of the processe= s. Some lessons may perhaps be learnt from Kerberos history and MIT's Project Athena: it was assumed that all workstations would be rooted trivially, and thus students were expected to reboot them from the network on each use, and the workstation did not have any priviledges that the student didn't give to it through kerberos. Alexandru> Is the assumed security of the cable (as opposed to Alexandru> wireless) leading to lack of IP protocol security on that Alexandru> cable? Could I build a Y out of that cable and do Alexandru> Man-in-the-Middle? Or will ND security protect this? It's seems that it's not the cable that is the end points of the required security, but rather, driver<->grid security. The car and the charging station need to have priviledge delegated to them, not vv. (The car can not be trusted for a variety or reasons: car sharing being the most obvious non-malicious case. In Ottawa, the first Plug-in Electric outlets in "public" places are for the car sharing company. The driver is not trusted, as the billing relationship is between utility and car sharing co-op, not driver. I haven't driven one of them yet,=20 but I did take the mandatory online training course) =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUXaIR4qHRg3pndX9AQLj/QP/TZGs2Z4SeObYU4mQ0DRX+8CCfUGIRFfk 8U6aomRPKzC1WEse0nmg3aUEl311B/Mu5j5SBwuvB51vrQsElASwidTHbD4vOpDi VzKyo17AuzYPhH3OSi2JTqSY1zJcxuROf0A4pHVoaZ0SvLvNF/pnNme6pkr4emlJ gMmcMlEgZ5A= =i0u7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From alison@she-devel.com Tue Apr 23 14:46:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632AF21F8D79 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NP6Fm+mQuhiq for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ia0-x22a.google.com (mail-ia0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E44B21F8A80 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ia0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 21so1011313iay.1 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=KAeUNk+eJrN+acxEfb9jgTdq/O4DB0Uk0meHyWyXlI8=; b=UJtIaU7y8hW/9sRF1QlL3AAsh9njgdz5TUyhrteXb7tPp1NVScgup3h27FSi3/b3Mw pkOi4nsVntEyuWmbAiGDAgMfvLfSmZ2ZMwwlesbCJPJBxb0SL+Sb0l+vQT08c36ZohWi YFKUTE+7L8HDVfdNOOCpoHrmMhDI/QgdneplrhWeyL1iGA2z8dbNGMLTaYomRf/14PO9 N2tefy4Xs29uz955Z6B/EyIZMavdJbmDX6GN8lZrGRAsVEjz93Z9OOPGc2/aH3rA13uz xabUwAjhvEHZyz0afMVfhM6pp8r+hDwLflS/t5gSPOiJ7Ns2abDfbcbhsx3TFDnBxPPy 8+Fw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.55.73 with SMTP id q9mr19841009igp.44.1366753571848; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:46:11 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10cbc925ab7d04db0e1d1e X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkcfBFewLxHRtyra4/ejqsVWPFSbEegCWELZGDla5Xnp10HvlqP9IokG4hgCGd9r2Mn8SjH Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:46:13 -0000 --047d7b10cbc925ab7d04db0e1d1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 In addition to compromised cars being used as attack vectors, drivers may also be concerned about compromised charging stations attached to their CAN bus in order to monitor state-of-charge, battery temperature, etc. The possibilities for harm go well past credit card fraud since extremely expensive property attached to high voltages and flammable batteries are involved. No reason to be alarmist, but especially given minimal layperson understanding of charging circuits, a lot of caution seems advisable. On the plus side, I suppose cars can transfer other desired content while plugged in: download map updates, upload maintenance-related statistics, etc. --047d7b10cbc925ab7d04db0e1d1e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In addition to compromised cars being used as attack vectors= , drivers may also be concerned about compromised charging stations attache= d to their CAN bus in order to monitor state-of-charge, battery temperature= , etc.=A0=A0 The possibilities for harm go well past credit card fraud sinc= e extremely expensive property attached to high voltages and flammable batt= eries are involved.=A0=A0 No reason to be alarmist, but especially given mi= nimal layperson understanding of charging circuits, a lot of caution seems = advisable.

On the plus side, I suppose cars can transfer other desired = content while plugged in: download map updates, upload maintenance-related = statistics, etc.

--047d7b10cbc925ab7d04db0e1d1e-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Apr 23 17:15:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE0B21F8FC6 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:15:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kpJSEGxrbPAv for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A9C21F8F58 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B31C2016D; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6EA93C546D; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA0DC546C; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Alison Chaiken In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 00:15:37 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Alison" =3D=3D Alison Chaiken writes: Alison> In addition to compromised cars being used as attack Alison> vectors, drivers may=20 Alison> also be concerned about compromised charging stations Alison> attached to their CAN=20 Alison> bus in order to monitor state-of-charge, battery Alison> temperature, etc. The=20 Wow... I didn't know that the CAN buses were directly bridged!!! Is there a specification for the charging cable that is publically available? (What is it called?) =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUXckDYqHRg3pndX9AQK9AgP9HJBstzlqpQseBvWorfmh6VRkgzilTfCs oqhxMMYCcVELoM7vgcyCjjJtfi0WfPTBxC9tNl9YxrVXoQLxarDFZaCxrHruCgD5 gkjw+YWRIYdMZVf3UYryGUs0TMiRrl9UwlKQxbVpswJsk7whd2XCRxe03SNAviZF TIdEfpaTG58= =nmxx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Wed Apr 24 04:49:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA87E21F8BD4 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Qs1yHiLZMXY for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F341F21F8BBA for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r3OBnFYF024961 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:49:15 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3OBnF9C023891 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:49:15 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r3OBnEgJ030023 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:49:15 +0200 Message-ID: <5177C6BA.6020805@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:49:14 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <2ED1D3801ACAAB459FDB4EAC9EAD090C0FFFE9E2@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <51064E08.9020401@gmail.com> <5106619F.7020002@inria.fr> <51067D07.9020409@gmail.com> <5108E3AB.8080205@inria.fr> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA07A49E@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> <5108EF0B.5050002@gmail.com> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA07A517@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> <5108F18E.7010104@gmail.com> <510A69D7.40806@gmail.com> <510A75F8.7080508@inria.fr> <603F5FD847B5174CBDA37A9DC00532FB06AC631A@SUCNPTEXM02.com.ad.uk.ds.corp> <511F7968.7090309@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <511F7968.7090309@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] suppliers of 802.11p-over-ITS-G5; 802.11s-over-5875-5905MHz X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:49:31 -0000 Recently I discovered that in addition to the posted list there is also Commsignia as a manufacturer of 802.11p compatible OBU and RSU. The list is now: NEC NXP/Cohda Wireless Cisco/Cohda Wireless Denso Delphi Savari Kapsch Siemens ITRI AutoTalks Commsignia Yours, Alex Le 16/02/2013 13:19, Alexandru Petrescu a écrit : > Le 11/02/2013 14:50, Dowdell, John a écrit : >> Alex >> >> Is anyone making 802.11p radios commercially at reasonable cost? The >> few I have seen seem to be very expensive (few k$) and there appears >> to be little support in Linux. > > John, > > A person was kind enough to gather in one place information which is > otherwise sparsely but publicly available; this information is about > suppliers of 802.11p-over-ITS-G5 frequencies (5875-5905MHz, > 5855-5875MHz, 5470-5725MHz; caveat - only some are allowed in some > countries, check the local regulator before turning these on). > > NEC > NXP/Cohda Wireless > Cisco/Cohda Wireless > Denso > Delphi > Savari > Kapsch > Siemens > ITRI > AutoTalks > > I have some experience with ITRI equipment. In their offer there is a > full-blown RSU, for around 1500EUR. This is for a RSU hardened box for > outdoors, powerpc, GPS-enabled, 2x 802.11p interfaces, Ethernet with > PoE, USB, and linux 2.6. Among these, it is > the software which is expensive; this includes Atheros driver > modifications, new kernel modules for "BTP" (Base Transmission > Protocol?), 'geonetworking', 'wave'. > > OTher than a full-blown RSU, one could acquire also ITRI individual > '802.11p' miniPCI cards which are in the order of couple hundreds of euros. > > This is not a commercial advertisement. Technically speaking this means > many things for designing protocols. For example: > > It means it is easily possible to run linux with IPv6 over a 'wave0' > interface. Just turn it on, watch the IPv6 link-local address, echo > the frequency value and ping. (no need to set ESSID, nor security). > > In addition to the Ethernet interfaces, the RSU has _2_ 802.11p > different interfaces, and one Ethernet. Not just two antennas, but two > interfaces (ifconfig 'wave0' and 'wave1'). This means one doesn't need > to 'relay' packets and that one needs to 'route' packets, in the > traditional sense of 'routing'. (compare this for example to RPL > context where a sensor has a _single_ interface and there is no routing, > but 'relaying'). > > Also this outdoors RSU has 1 GPS antenna. This means that geonetworking > does not work if one tries to use this indoors in a lab where GPS signal > does not reach. (unless one installs a GPS 'repeater' - easy to do but > check with regulator in country, or use a GPS 'replayer' software to > play pre-recorded NMEA sentences on /dev/tty). > > Note also it is strange to design an RSU Road Side Unit - designed to be > fixed with respect to Earth, and put a GPS interface on it. It would > have been easier to just record the GPS coordinates once and set them in > a file for as long as that RSU stays there. I consider it as an extra, > but cheaper RSU without GPS should be possible. > >> 802.11s on the other hand is available on standard Wi-Fi dongles >> (from $15) and drivers are already available in Linux. Is it correct >> that 802.11p is mandated for ITS in some regions? > > I doubt 802.11p be mandated for ITS. > > I think the regulator mandates the application which could be used on > some frequencies. > > Where I live, the regulator mandates the use of vehicular 'safety' > applications at 5875-5905MHz. The technical 'conditions' are referred > by the regulator to ETSI documents (the regulator is not ETSI, but often > implements what ETSI wants, but not always). I doubt the regulator > mandates 'geonetworking' for this band. > > I doubt 'IP' could be qualified as 'safety'. > > Hence I think 802.11s _could_ be used on the range 5875-5905MHz, as long > as it does not transport IP. > > 802.11p has some features which could qualify as 'safety'. For example, > it has some MAC-layer messages for 'emergency', and with timestamps > (absent from .11 non-p standard), which don't transport IP. > > 'geonetworking' also has some features which could qualify as 'safety'. > I just don't remember which. > > What features in 802.11s would qualify as 'safety'? > > Alex > >> >> John >> >> -----Original Message----- From: its-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandru Petrescu Sent: >> 31 January 2013 15:17 To: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] IP over >> 802.11p >> >> Le 31/01/2013 14:47, Thierry Ernst a écrit : >>> >>> Well, we do actually run IPv6 over 11p (with or without >>> GeoNetworking), so I don't see what kind of issues there might be >>> ... >> >> I have some clarification questions about EtherType and 802.11p and >> GeoNetworking. >> >> I guess when you run IPv6 over 11p with GeoNetworking, the Ethernet >> header uses EtherType soon-to-be-0x8947, whereas when you run IPv6 >> over 11p without GeoNetworking, the Ethernet header uses EtherType >> 0x86DD. This is just a supposition, I don't know how you run it. >> >> Also, if I run IPv4 over 11p with GeoNetworking - should I use >> EtherType soon-to-be-0x8947? Or other? I suppose that if I run IPv4 >> over 11p without GeoNetworking I should use EtherType 0x0800, and if >> it's ARP over 802.11p still without GeoNetworking then I should use >> EtherType 0x0806. >> >> (the letter we've seen recently is not clear whether that allocation >> is for GeoNetworking, for IP-over-802.11p, for ETSI ITS, for >> GeoNetworking for IPv6, for GeoNetworking for IPv4, etc. It is not >> clear either whether GeoNetworking supports IPv4 or not, or under >> what form). >> >> I also have some questions about the relationship between the nature >> of some 802.11p links (no ESSID, absence of link-layer security - >> as opposed to WiFi which has ESSID and link-layer security) and IP. >> >> For example - will V2V prefix exchange using Router Advertisements >> work easier on 802.11p links (easier than on WiFi), because the ESSID >> does not need to be discovered, the ad-hoc network does not need to >> be formed - suffices it to send packets on a certain channel. >> >> (in a V2V draft one seems to say that the presence of Access Point >> is absolutely necessary in order for 802.11p to work; but in our >> experimentations this is not the case - it is possible to establish >> direct vehicle-to-vehicle IP-over-802.11p communications without the >> presence of a fixed 802.11p Access Point). >> >> For another example - will IP prefer that the 802.11p channel in >> France be 176, 178 or 180? (with WiFi, IP does not care because it >> can work on any of the 11 channels equally well, but with 802.11p >> each of these three channels seem to be reserved for "Services", >> "Control" and "Services"). >> >> For another example - is all the security on these links entirely >> relaying on IP layer security (IPsec, SeND, EAP, PANA)? >> >> I think finding consensus on some of these questions could lead to >> interoperability. >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> Regards, Thierry >>> >>> >>> >>> On 31/01/13 13:55, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >>>> Given current discussions, I think it may be worth considering a >>>> work item about how to run IP over 802.11p. >>>> >>>> One of the things to say would be whether or not this is IPv6 >>>> only or IPv4 also. >>>> >>>> This would say how this would work _without_ GeoNetworking. >>>> >>>> It would agree on the EtherType and/or whether there are new >>>> ones, several or only one, or reusing existing EtherTypes. >>>> >>>> It could be as simple as to say that IP works over 802.11p just >>>> as it works over 802.11b - no modifications. >>>> >>>> What do you think? >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> Le 30/01/2013 11:10, Alexandru Petrescu a écrit : >>>>> Le 30/01/2013 11:04, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) a écrit : >>>>>> Hi Alexandru, >>>>>> >>>>>> IEEE talk only hexa in their Ethertype files. >>>>> >>>>> I tend to agree that #8947 is a hexadecimal notation also >>>>> because the sharp sign preceding it, and because if it were >>>>> decimal it would convert to 22F3 which is already reserved for >>>>> trill. >>>>> >>>>> I just watend to make sure. >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: its-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>> [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandru >>>>>>> Petrescu Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 12:00 PM To: >>>>>>> its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] What do we need to make ITS >>>>>>> WG go forward? - EtherType for ITS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Dan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for the email. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think we definitely need a good interface with IEEE >>>>>>> about this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe you could ask them whether this number is hexa or >>>>>>> decimal, so we know what to put in implementation (e.g. >>>>>>> wireshark packet analyzers, and 802.11p/etsi-its >>>>>>> implementations). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I am interested to learn whether this deserves being >>>>>>> reserved at IANA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Le 30/01/2013 10:49, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) a écrit : >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The documents that you are referring (on the ETSI >>>>>>>> server) are not freely accessible. A password is >>>>>>>> required, and probably only ETSI members have the access >>>>>>>> information. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The responsibility for assigning EtherType values is >>>>>>>> with the IEEE Registration Authority. They maintain a >>>>>>>> public list (updated daily) at >>>>>>>> http://standards.ieee.org/develop/regauth/ethertype/eth.txt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > and according to this list the value 8947 is not allocated. >>>>>>>> Now, the public listing information for EtherTypes bears >>>>>>>> a disclaimer that says >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * This is a partial listing of all assigned EtherType >>>>>>>> Fields. Not >>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> recipients wish to publish their assignment at this >>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did ETSI require for this information not to be >>>>>>>> published? It does not look useful if they want to >>>>>>>> encourage interoperability >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Value 0707 mentioned in the thread is not allocated >>>>>>>> either. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let me know if I can help (as IETF liaison to the >>>>>>>> IEEE-SA). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:*its-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Thierry >>>>>>>> Ernst *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:11 AM *To:* >>>>>>>> its@ietf.org *Subject:* Re: [its] What do we need to make >>>>>>>> ITS WG go forward? - EtherType for ITS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alex, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> IEEE have assigned Ethernet Type Field number #8947 for >>>>>>>> ITS use (ETSI TC ITS's GeoNetworking). Check the >>>>>>>> following document available on the ETSI server: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ITS(13)000020 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > 0_Ethernet_Type_Field_number_for_GeoNetworking.pdf> >>>>>>>> Ethernet Type Field number for GeoNetworking >>>>>>>> http://docbox.etsi.org/ITS/ITS/05-CONTRIBUTIONS/2013/ITS(13)000020_Eth >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > ernet_Type_Field_number_for_GeoNetworking.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, Thierry. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 28/01/13 14:28, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Le 28/01/2013 14:16, Joe Klein a écrit : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really dislike the fact that ISO is charging for the >>>>>>>> ISO 21217 - Architecture & ISO 21210 - IPv6 Networking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does this make it any better? Safer? Should ISO now >>>>>>>> have cybersecurity and safety liability if the >>>>>>>> specification leads to deaths and damage to property? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does it make any better interoperable as well? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> EtherType 0x0707 described in ITS documents, >>>>>>>> implemented, but not specified by IEEE nor reserved at >>>>>>>> IANA - does not make it interoperable. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One wouldn't think that this 0x0707 ethertype be >>>>>>>> reserved by >>>>>>> somebody >>>>>>>> who is not IANA nor IEEE? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (see a good example of interoperability: IPv6 0x86dd >>>>>>>> ethertype is reserved at IEEE and at IANA >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/ieee-802-numbers/ieee-802-numbers.xml) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Alex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or should these standards remain in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the public domain, for researches to review and >>>>>>>> validate? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 6:31 AM, Thierry Ernst >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At this stage, I don't think a new working group is >>>>>>>> needed. First, it would need a charter, and support from >>>>>>>> the industry. But more importantly, IETF WGs are not >>>>>>>> usually sector-driven, so it means the different issues >>>>>>>> pertaining to ITS should be brought to >>>>>>> VARIOUS >>>>>>>> existing WGs, and a WG should only be created if there >>>>>>>> is an important issue for which there is no existing WG >>>>>>>> that could work on it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This said, as mentioned earlier, ITS is not only about >>>>>>>> vehicular communications, though the issues listed by >>>>>>>> Alexandru below mostly consider vehicular >>>>>>>> communications. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What ITS really needs is the definition of a common >>>>>>>> communication architecture and the definition of what >>>>>>>> features should be comprised for an IPv6 networking >>>>>>>> stack deployed for ITS use cases. This cannot be done at >>>>>>>> IETF, and actually already exists at ISO: - ISO 21217 - >>>>>>>> Architecture - ISO 21210 - IPv6 Networking >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As an input to the discussion, please consider reading >>>>>>>> documents D2.1 and D2.2 available on the ITSSv6 project >>>>>>>> web page: http://www.itssv6.eu/documentation/ D2.2 >>>>>>>> provides an analysis of the currently published version >>>>>>>> of ISO 21210, but new work items have been launched since >>>>>>>> then to address remaining issues. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, Thierry. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 28/01/13 11:08, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Le 28/01/2013 05:02, Stan Ratliff (sratliff) a écrit : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is just one opinion, but I'd like to understand why >>>>>>>> ITS would need its own IETF group. The work here is the >>>>>>>> same (IMO) as what is taking place in MANET. I would vote >>>>>>>> that this work be taken up in MANET. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stan, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for the offer. I considered this offer since >>>>>>>> some time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I try to understand whether some of these items on which >>>>>>>> I have interest could be brought in in MANET WG: - V2V >>>>>>>> using prefix exchange - VIN-based IP addressing scheme - >>>>>>>> ND Prefix Delegation - PMIP-based network mobility - >>>>>>>> IPv6 single-address connecion 'sharing' with a cellular >>>>>>>> operator and a vehicular moving network (type '64share' >>>>>>>> of v6ops). - Default Route with DHCPv6. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please let me know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, Stan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Nabil, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we already done some steps but not sure how far >>>>>>>> now. We will need to propose the WG and provide the WG >>>>>>>> charter, as use cases and work to be done in this group. >>>>>>>> This charter needs to be approved by the IESG. I have not >>>>>>>> attended the last meeting so not sure about the status >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 1/26/13, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm still interested in this list and want to join >>>>>>>> voices previously heard to make it a working group. So >>>>>>>> what should we exactly do, to achieve this goal ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2013/1/26 Abdussalam Baryun >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was interested in this group but not sure where are we >>>>>>>> so far. Is there progress, or is there issues/efforts >>>>>>>> that need to be completed and volunteered. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AB _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- * * *ĘÍíÇĘí ˇ **Cordialement, Regards* * * * * *äČíá >>>>>>>> ČäÚăŃćNabil Benamar* Professor of computer sciences >>>>>>>> Simulation and Modelisation Laboratory Human Sciences >>>>>>>> Faculty of Meknes Moulay Ismail* *University* Meknes, >>>>>>>> Morocco *GSM: * *+ 212 6 70832236 >>>>>>>> http://nabilbenamar.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > ---------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>> list >>>>>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing >>>>> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ its mailing list >> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its The >> information contained within this e-mail and any files attached to >> this e-mail is private and in addition may include commercially >> sensitive information. The contents of this e-mail are for the >> intended recipient only and therefore if you wish to disclose the >> information contained within this e-mail or attached files, please >> contact the sender prior to any such disclosure. If you are not the >> intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or distribution is >> prohibited. Please also contact the sender and inform them of the >> error and delete the e-mail, including any attached files from your >> system. Cassidian Limited, Registered Office : Quadrant House, Celtic >> Springs, Coedkernew, Newport, NP10 8FZ Company No: 04191036 >> http://www.cassidian.com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Wed Apr 24 05:21:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8164421F8DBB for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 05:21:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irNzhrK+mD6p for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 05:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC91521F8DCF for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 05:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r3OCLEo5004133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:21:14 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3OCLEYF003996 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:21:14 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r3OCL4hU015870 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:21:14 +0200 Message-ID: <5177CE30.3000303@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:21:04 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <20872.1366762509@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <20872.1366762509@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 12:21:20 -0000 Le 24/04/2013 02:15, Michael Richardson a écrit : > >>>>>> "Alison" == Alison Chaiken writes: > Alison> In addition to compromised cars being used as attack > Alison> vectors, drivers may > Alison> also be concerned about compromised charging stations > Alison> attached to their CAN > Alison> bus in order to monitor state-of-charge, battery > Alison> temperature, etc. The > > Wow... I didn't know that the CAN buses were directly bridged!!! It is common practice to have in-vehicle IP-enabled devices which connect straight to the CAN. I don't know whether that is 'bridged' or 'routed'. Or whether that connects to the charging station or not. > Is there a specification for the charging cable that is publically > available? (What is it called?) Well, as opposed to the maturity of single-diameter gas recharging tube, the electrical cables for recharging are in their infancy - several standards for cables exist, mainly driven by particular manufacturer needs. I've seen such documents at ISO (private) and CEN. I can only guess SAE has some as well. For recharging purposes, there may exist other means to recharge as well - not only wire. As with smartphones, one may charge her car contact-less. With these also there may be other risks when IP is used over them. Alex > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From alison@she-devel.com Wed Apr 24 08:02:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F79A21F9026 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DHAsMSof1ilj for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x233.google.com (mail-ie0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F7221F8E8F for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 16so2173372iea.38 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=5zJ+OMc5pvv4Qvrl+d9DfkUcMkOZAtytkmVe+Q6CFoQ=; b=paxOwopz24uXeRyEM4HxUHqpfvg1pXE7Iwuq6uOECLZEGdG8d3zPsUGhL3Gy94fxoS UuocBFqREAtEWcMTHFiFHV2LRM0gig7BlaE7Cuv5DmAouee2I3kxq2ntEMuGPMXM94pS HdsCS6mTYVYNZUOpxyEPg6+YHIgmHUENLD4azO8UjLpTufd2mbFqhZJED9OSaUuTqm+L kPhEi26TccEtllKU0mnJG6R9LCRVv5VoXAPGfycyjQy5NIF+cDPg8CAfqvLPticqtrb4 uBwhsGjgWvWMbvuD8ebr1Pdf/YzcXEviURPH0RWhNzLBuI92DH+gIq4VtOJI9Kl+juK0 LHNw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.168.198 with SMTP id x6mr2280270icy.45.1366815773445; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=90e6ba6e8a20a6ae9a04db1c981d X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnKnekNHLQptYInsowwEIDiicRzgCC8GIhBLxvAbe8Ux597ZcO5AoDLakQqpiMMhAImtmlu Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:02:56 -0000 --90e6ba6e8a20a6ae9a04db1c981d Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8a20a6ae9704db1c981b --90e6ba6e8a20a6ae9704db1c981b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 *Michael Richardson asks:* I didn't know that the CAN buses were directly bridged!!! I The bridging of CAN is general in internal-combustion vehicles in order that "smog tests" can be performed via the OBDII (SAE J1939) connector. Also, more generally, any information that is displayed on the instrument cluster comes from a connection of a sensor (most likely via a gateway) to the instrument cluster. Historically, the whole network has been CAN but recently the industry is moving, piecemeal, to FlexRay and then to EthernetAVB. The transition will take years, but we may hope that new vehicles like plug-in ones will exclusively support the newer protocols, which have more security. CAN is intrinsically insecure at the Link level, as it uses a CDMA/priority-arbitration scheme without authentication or addressing. Since CAN really is a Link-level protocol, layers above it may implement more security -- or not! Automotive networks inside the car have been conformant to the SAE protocols and also ISO to some extent. Unfortunately, there are at least as many internal network protocols as the external ones we've been discussing. * Michael Richardson asks:* Is there a specification for the charging cable that is publically available? The industry-standard charging plug is governed by SAE-J1772. Unfortunately Tesla, one of the market leaders, has chosen an incompatible plug for its newer vehicles. *Note: *I am not quoting hundreds of lines of other's postings at the end of this message. Please considering keeping message text brief in this fashion by excepting previous messages rather than wholesale inclusion of them! Thanks in general for the informative discussion on this list. -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou --90e6ba6e8a20a6ae9704db1c981b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Richardson asks:
I didn&#= 39;t know that the CAN buses were directly bridged!!! I

The br= idging of CAN is general in internal-combustion vehicles in order that &quo= t;smog tests" can be performed via the OBDII (SAE J1939) connector. = =A0 =A0Also, more generally, any information that is displayed on the instr= ument cluster comes from a connection of a sensor (most likely via a gatewa= y) to the instrument cluster. =A0 =A0Historically, the whole network has be= en CAN but recently the industry is moving, piecemeal, to FlexRay and then = to EthernetAVB. =A0 =A0The transition will take years, but we may hope that= new vehicles like plug-in ones will exclusively support the newer protocol= s, which have more security. =A0 =A0 =A0CAN is intrinsically insecure at th= e Link level, as it uses a CDMA/priority-arbitration scheme without authent= ication or addressing. =A0 =A0 Since CAN really is a Link-level protocol, l= ayers above it may implement more security -- or not!

Automotive networks inside the car have been conformant to the SAE prot= ocols and also ISO to some extent. =A0 =A0Unfortunately, there are at least= as many internal network protocols as the external ones we've been dis= cussing.

Michael Richardson asks:
Is t= here a specification for the charging cable that is publically available? <= br>

The industry-standard charging plug is governed by SAE-J1772. = =A0 =A0Unfortunately Tesla, one of the market leaders, has chosen an incomp= atible plug for its newer vehicles.

Note: I am not quoting hundreds of lines of other's p= ostings at the end of this message.=A0=A0=A0 Please considering keeping mes= sage text brief in this fashion by excepting previous messages rather than = wholesale inclusion of them!=A0=A0=A0 Thanks in general for the informative= discussion on this list.

--
Alison Chaiken =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 alison@she-devel.com
650= -279-5600 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org}
The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. =A0 =A0-= - Thea von Harbou
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12:01:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194FA21F96C1 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 12:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FDk-TvXqP5oP for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 12:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F003E21F96AC for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 12:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2CB2016D; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 15:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7DF9963A5E; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 15:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A95A63A58; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 15:00:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Alison Chaiken In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:01:11 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable mcr> I didn't know that the CAN buses were directly bridged!!! I >>>>> "Alison" =3D=3D Alison Chaiken writes: Alison> The bridging of CAN is general in internal-combustion Alison> vehicles in order that "smog tests" can be performed via the Alison> OBDII (SAE J1939) connector.=20 Yeah, I can get that when I go to the garage, that they want access to the internals of the system. No different than disrobing for the doctor. Alison> which have more security. CAN is intrinsically insecure Alison> at the Link level, as it uses a CDMA/priority-arbitration Alison> scheme without authentication=20 Alison> or addressing. Since CAN really is a Link-level Alison> protocol, layers above=20 Alison> it may implement more security -- or not! Yes, I knew if bad guy could access it physically, the bad guy has won, which is why I'm surprised to learn that some plug-in cables have CAN according to the slides you posted. mcr> Is there a specification for the charging cable that is publically mcr> available? Alison> The industry-standard charging plug is governed by SAE-J1772. Alison> Unfortunately Tesla, one of the market leaders, has chosen Alison> an incompatible=20 Alison> plug for its newer vehicles. okay, thanks for this. Did Tesla explain why they didn't use that plug? I'm a bit surprised that AC is transmitted, as that seems to move lots of heavy equipment into the car and forces alternative generation system to make AC just for the car to turn it back into DC to charge the batteries. wikipedia says: "SAE is developing a Combo Coupler variant of the J1772 connector with additional pins to accommodate fast DC charging at 200-450 Volts DC and up to 90 kW." it also mentions the "GreenPHY" PLC protocol.... oh a form of ethernet over powerline. would that run over the primary power supply, or somewhere else? If the AC isn't turned on yet, how can the system negotiate turning the AC on using GreenPHY? The stock/legacy signaling protocol seems to be based upon switching resistors... ick.=20 =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUXl9V4qHRg3pndX9AQLqEgP8CGSAPLU503u3dXM668h/uzmJHtSLcQBt dpiC29u6RWv+E41+8cSYzlBDqUsszXZ3G0qG6afh4ZWoc7hcFn2pGKQxtHYMoXBL gYzgA0mZL7ErTpNLqhvBXe8uUAimYSNs2wnNP2S+l9O7HWtm23fousbZwXwl82My O3OFuu+VfWU= =UDHI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From alison@she-devel.com Fri Apr 26 15:38:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0730921F9C53 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWJjKFfiV4bx for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x229.google.com (mail-ie0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4791C21F9C4C for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ar20so5633612iec.0 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=bpYCuAoDugLk1Z5NsDuAxv7OQUSPKKpE4NHJwATRGTg=; b=jfnTwWL2LAfWrki1lfbB4la7ddQ5zCFCw4xj8fbp3ncXUqtMZrr6G0/2+oMV09mjyL wjCowf8kCF+oLqVfuPQq0eWdci4GCNf1kLT++HdFtq8oJEzAXsCw602Uy6WM0cypD7pZ 0wozeFqYzwAUp3q+6/coO/XvCcsTojCmb04IaRIvGkmR0UpfdldTCLFLc9deh5tdh3Fe 01LzRimuOjWVBYX6l3mdAbqJ8/jlOW0wUqZI2XI7pfMVSQbylPvSN0dRDCM8U0aS0q6b KMXzaqW01BEE8YFAxDzjVGwHAVQCXGZsUbtuo1xjgT7ABfPFtvkCVBdC+ihCjxm60Hx3 TYrw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.79.233 with SMTP id m9mr3043381igx.53.1367015937715; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:38:57 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0139fffc5ec44304db4b33ca X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkm9T+JMaZSYTxxHhrSZvHhl5DnPdUPCZHcxQ1WcEJTtrLuYK+d6MZGgLXRVibI+5xUoDoN Subject: Re: [its] does MANET or ITS scope extend to EV charging stations X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 22:38:59 -0000 --089e0139fffc5ec44304db4b33ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Michael Richardson writes: > Yes, I knew if bad guy could access it physically, the bad guy has won, > which is why I'm surprised to learn that some plug-in cables have CAN > according to the slides you posted. Plug-in cables must have access to CAN in order to read state-of-charge, temperature, etc., but there's no reason that data couldn't come from a websocket via a server reading SQLite as opposed to a hard connection. The scary exploits on CAN are not plug-in though: check the software-defined-radio hacks via wireless tire-pressure monitor, FM radio, CDROM and keyless entry fob at autosec.org. > Did Tesla explain why they didn't use that plug? Like Steve Jobs, Elon Musk doesn't often feel the need to explain. > The stock/legacy signaling protocol seems to be based upon switching > resistors... ick. Talking on CAN involves pulling down the HI signal on one of the two (often twisted-pair) wires of the bus, although more advanced protocols (e.g. TTCAN, FlexRay, etc.) exist. From the point of view of IETF, the main point is that the end points of the communication are not at all secure. If a large aftermarket develops for 802.11p radios, then quite ancient legacy protocols will represent nodes on the V2X network. -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou --089e0139fffc5ec44304db4b33ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@= sandelman.ca> writes:
> Yes, I knew if bad guy could access it= physically, the bad guy has won,
> which is why I'm surprised to= learn that some plug-in cables have CAN
> according to the slides you posted.

Plug-in cables must have ac= cess to CAN in order to read state-of-charge, temperature, etc., but there&= #39;s no reason that data couldn't come from a websocket via a server r= eading SQLite as opposed to a hard connection.=A0=A0=A0 The scary exploits = on CAN are not plug-in though: check the software-defined-radio hacks via w= ireless tire-pressure monitor, FM radio, CDROM and keyless entry fob at autosec.org.

> Did Tesla explain why they didn't use that plug?

Like S= teve Jobs, Elon Musk doesn't often feel the need to explain.

>= ; The stock/legacy signaling protocol seems to be based upon switching
> resistors... ick.

Talking on CAN involves pulling down the HI s= ignal on one of the two (often twisted-pair) wires of the bus, although mor= e advanced protocols (e.g. TTCAN, FlexRay, etc.) exist.=A0=A0 From the poin= t of view of IETF, the main point is that the end points of the communicati= on are not at all secure.=A0=A0=A0 If a large aftermarket develops for 802.= 11p radios, then quite ancient legacy protocols will represent nodes on the= V2X network.

--
Alison Chaiken =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 alison@she-devel.com
650= -279-5600 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org}
The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. =A0 =A0-= - Thea von Harbou
--089e0139fffc5ec44304db4b33ca-- From johnsonhammond1@hushmail.com Sat Apr 27 14:06:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC37721F9908 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:06:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a-k-wB41LauX for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.hushmail.com (smtp1a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33A721F990F for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.hushmail.com (smtp1a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.236]) by smtp1.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 57DA430B3E for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:46:40 +0000 (UTC) X-hush-relay-time: 214 X-hush-relay-id: b1bd903faba185ee07e5a0ed3a1fde37 Received: from smtp.hushmail.com (w5.hushmail.com [65.39.178.80]) by smtp1.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:46:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2204DE6739; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:46:40 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 13:46:39 -0400 To: its@ietf.org From: johnsonhammond1@hushmail.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-Id: <20130427174640.2204DE6739@smtp.hushmail.com> Subject: [its] Biggest Fake Conference in Computer Science X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:06:50 -0000 Biggest Fake Conference in Computer Science We are researchers from different parts of the world and conducted a study on the world’s biggest bogus computer science conference WORLDCOMP ( http://sites.google.com/site/worlddump1 ) organized by Prof. Hamid Arabnia from University of Georgia, USA. We submitted a fake paper to WORLDCOMP 2011 and again (the same paper with a modified title) to WORLDCOMP 2012. This paper had numerous fundamental mistakes. Sample statements from that paper include: (1). Binary logic is fuzzy logic and vice versa (2). Pascal developed fuzzy logic (3). Object oriented languages do not exhibit any polymorphism or inheritance (4). TCP and IP are synonyms and are part of OSI model (5). Distributed systems deal with only one computer (6). Laptop is an example for a super computer (7). Operating system is an example for computer hardware Also, our paper did not express any conceptual meaning. However, it was accepted both the times without any modifications (and without any reviews) and we were invited to submit the final paper and a payment of $500+ fee to present the paper. We decided to use the fee for better purposes than making Prof. Hamid Arabnia (Chairman of WORLDCOMP) rich. After that, we received few reminders from WORLDCOMP to pay the fee but we never responded. We MUST say that you should look at the above website if you have any thoughts to submit a paper to WORLDCOMP. DBLP and other indexing agencies have stopped indexing WORLDCOMP’s proceedings since 2011 due to its fakeness. See http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/conf/icai/index.html for of one of the conferences of WORLDCOMP and notice that there is no listing after 2010. See Section 2 of http://sites.google.com/site/dumpconf for comments from well-known researchers about WORLDCOMP. The status of your WORLDCOMP papers can be changed from scientific to other (i.e., junk or non-technical) at any time. Better not to have a paper than having it in WORLDCOMP and spoil the resume and peace of mind forever! Our study revealed that WORLDCOMP is a money making business, using University of Georgia mask, for Prof. Hamid Arabnia. He is throwing out a small chunk of that money (around 20 dollars per paper published in WORLDCOMP’s proceedings) to his puppet (Mr. Ashu Solo or A.M.G. Solo) who publicizes WORLDCOMP and also defends it at various forums, using fake/anonymous names. The puppet uses fake names and defames other conferences to divert traffic to WORLDCOMP. He also makes anonymous phone calls and tries to threaten the critiques of WORLDCOMP (See Item 7 of Section 5 of above website). That is, the puppet does all his best to get a maximum number of papers published at WORLDCOMP to get more money into his (and Prof. Hamid Arabnia’s) pockets. Monte Carlo Resort (the venue of WORLDCOMP for more than 10 years, until 2012) has refused to provide the venue for WORLDCOMP’13 because of the fears of their image being tarnished due to WORLDCOMP’s fraudulent activities. That is why WORLDCOMP’13 is taking place at a different resort. WORLDCOMP will not be held after 2013. The draft paper submission deadline is over but still there are no committee members, no reviewers, and there is no conference Chairman. The only contact details available on WORLDCOMP’s website is just an email address! Let us make a direct request to Prof. Hamid arabnia: publish all reviews for all the papers (after blocking identifiable details) since 2000 conference. Reveal the names and affiliations of all the reviewers (for each year) and how many papers each reviewer had reviewed on average. We also request him to look at the Open Challenge (Section 6) at https://sites.google.com/site/moneycomp1 Sorry for posting to multiple lists. Spreading the word is the only way to stop this bogus conference. Please forward this message to other mailing lists and people. We are shocked with Prof. Hamid Arabnia and his puppet’s activities http://worldcomp-fake-bogus.blogspot.com Search Google using the keyword worldcomp fake for additional links. From alison@she-devel.com Sun Apr 28 10:40:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CE721F9A92 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.744, BAYES_05=-1.11, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPiUQQOB+jDE for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ia0-x22a.google.com (mail-ia0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1463021F9A74 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ia0-f170.google.com with SMTP id k20so1933150iak.1 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Lxxcr4Tj0b3IIrEvQQ/kgeN8ybUB9keJcEglidiLYvU=; b=ir+/48TIe8UAjtGGfkQQFpZS3kLGEvxjcru7WUyw25sCrEnipRzhFuxZ0zFaKiWsb9 yv+kcV7HOOuZh7YZ9al+S/D93bELmBdmQq4S7T94bPsSlWzJ1npkXHUCTZo9Ry8Em/gv +6o9OOW/AWW6y5DGi9Gbu3n5D8gZyk/3FxifSSDCuPwyxJ8lEZ6Ds/msdmjH+QfdVLUX NhRqWWKecSSDRWXgoqx9VWzRP3AjtAsMn7G5jwkHhAakC1YvVV+rrtx5J0xzKPIuvbBl NITCqiQuHPkpWh/fDsFwFM0+Bqo7OSx9IE0taTij23VaMyb8xounqM0QHzFmpOnabZvj Ueng== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.152.105 with SMTP id ux9mr111125igb.53.1367170829313; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:40:29 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlZ3MRLwUwnkpmg/5foHwdy7DHloyw3ZHRlUwBv3dMqJw/4o/cRytXpPnB6acx0j5+PmW3J Subject: [its] novel use case for intra-vehicular wireless X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:40:30 -0000 Slide 9 of this set from Elo Touch Solutions shows an "Automotive Interior Touchscape": http://ewh.ieee.org/r6/scv/ce/meetings/Elo%20for%20Automotive%20APR%202013.pdf The presenter believes, with good reason, that today's large console-mounted touch panels will disaggregate into many soft buttons used for applications like back-seat media control. He said that such tiny dispersed touch panels may operate via Zigbee, although I guess they could be active RFID as well. The idea that cars will have far fewer cables and wires and more wireless is pretty fascinating. That may save on assembly costs although the question of battery-powering so many small devices is worrisome. Perhaps energy harvesting is a real solution for vehicles? Anyhow, I don't mean to drag the group off-topic, but the concept of the wireless control of media playing is generally intriguing. I'm convinced that in some developing nations, the car will be the main "PC" for the household, the source of email, music, movie streaming for the whole house when parked. Residents of such nations will need cars, and even low-end cars will start to include these features. There has been a presumption that cellular handsets are the developing world PCs, but that strikes me as unclear. If the car becomes the media center, then you might want to control the music playing from your vehicle from another room by using IPV6 to address the car's functions directly. -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou From alison@she-devel.com Tue Apr 30 11:02:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6073F21F9A74 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4s6QyjP-UxU for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x230.google.com (mail-ie0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8767621F9A77 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id x14so993588ief.35 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=sWy7BVi9Wn+Bbz+NdvgalnNCwlWO9nPI9FHg1cz3w8U=; b=EXSiWXYtpdbBMyLFKDOHj19MdI645Dbw+TruE5JydQz+bhyZx9qtlEBYQziR1O80XQ HD+PJxFbe74udNkn5ZT9PlPR1hnReSl4JGzhDPsdgY9Usb7UfdB1j2sAmpqFdKoFsqaq UgPFGa5UL1Caxs/DBbx0xZG31/OzoHDOapsShKxiNkzxXhCf/M3G5bDnhGm/yPzW48EK hRo6gnbKlqgCNTUTwdL+I1c67K4ZawxHgCo2jfursXtIlqywmHTOmmU/NVxv6UzfveeC 4bkeEXWw6swnVYClLi7FVA9DlqNgFRSh0rSgtsYg50XYcAueU4cz9e6tRS4mm1vKOIDV PtFw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.93.3 with SMTP id cq3mr5944207igb.70.1367344937769; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:02:17 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmlEiyLJ0l5J1uDG+lDgni/7kY+6417LMYLKjLoZmGNmdVC+d7zHaH8j9ALukq+EveT7Eyl Cc: John Kenney Subject: [its] V2X webinar by Konstantin Khait X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:02:19 -0000 Excellent webinar, if difficult to follow and a bit Eurocentric: http://automotive.linuxfoundation.org/webinars/watch-webinar-using-open-source-solutions-for-vtv-vti-communications My go-to reference for U.S. DSRC and WAVE info is John Kenney of Toyota's excellent "Dedicated Short-Range Communications (DSRC) Standards in the United States", Proceedings of the IEEE | Vol. 99, No. 7, July 2011. I received a copy from the author but will let John (CC'ed) distribute it if he wishes. I'm not supposing that U.S. implementation is particularly important or clever, just hope that IETF and other standards bodies like IEEE will harmonize on APIs. -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou From alison@she-devel.com Tue Apr 30 11:13:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4F421F9A73 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03HMg-V8RXBf for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADFB21F9A71 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id aq17so996068iec.23 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=pQ2VIAmDyrNZhI2WXbqqLNrYHdn2t0cTAdprvXot7uQ=; b=ZDHZVy1lvX/aXk9c/YflUniMRN+fBBtVi9CCSrJibNKfHHnjeAIJgjNa6WvXUFVh6A W8jt1lmckBKVb5x0ikRuFH4hDO7OdO5KnQPukyJWXcSb/ADOw7OiaSpos/BNgC9N8PYp GsGzt5OjwL6Uoer2MWP5wmpajvppHUbK3euAFy9oIqqUt5D8w4HL6NC7r4GsZRBS6GkA xvY8DXwna+1JCqJW40JxPdmLvSq+0yWHt2HUXQMWlzYnhGp0n2CE5sobnIjgU0wVe9px T/Y0bm5ES5ELsiBf/7Q/WbpWLYj8rL+UAgJMHHsXIxH8mV1dMMfUAkeGyuDpPqa5E891 dIyg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.159.70 with SMTP id k6mr32082036icx.28.1367345604411; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.70 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlJy0IQxDssSFpIy0jAkcRYOwgGfqYXVkydLacnGiJ5wjPbjsnh642XdE5YqbrwVoRNUWvQ Subject: [its] ITS-IETF and GENIVI X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:13:26 -0000 My employer is part of the GENIVI automotive industry consortium that is promoting Linux standards. You can view some of GENIVI's existing efforts here: http://projects.genivi.org/ GENIVI has something like 170 members, including most major car manufacturers and represents, alongside Tizen-IVI, the most important effort to standardize automotive software. To date, GENIVI's networking discussions have mostly centered on car intranets with AUTOSAR and EthernetAVB and the like, but inevitably, as GENIVI partners with W3C, discussions will turn to V2X as well. I hope that GENIVI and Tizen-IVI will cooperate with ITS-IETF in the future. Is anyone besides me from these projects reading this email list? My own participation in the GENIVI Networking Expert Group has been limited by the fact that the meetings are held in the middle of the night in my timezone. It would be great if someone who lives in Central European Time would participate in the meetings! Please let me know if ITS-IETF would like to make contact with these groups as it formalizes its own status within IETF. No one from GENIVI or Tizen has deputized me to inquire; I just think it's a good idea! Best wishes, Alison -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou