From nobody Thu Sep 4 08:46:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A8E1A89B2 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CYp9_4nB9dly for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f173.google.com (mail-vc0-f173.google.com [209.85.220.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1394B1A8977 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id im17so10861133vcb.32 for ; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 08:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=09EGoOtt5pEfiqb6XoU6wsfSkwLsZ3HL3YuVtMazNgI=; b=ep5xyt/yFvQK1M058PdFak1FRiYXptYXWrtca++rQ/VY8D2J+uIbH11lCAh2F0Lhce cgwIO2JVbxhB5ndx/oeM5rcIS9GIywZWpX26U1GYXnk09FUqDgwadS8+GLoGKtRBlVJE SNjG1p026oSRqlXHIaPwHnOboIQVgZ5bKv3w0vTj2PUVrkFht4oIn2MUP6fMuunbOiL3 keMQ/9UGKTobBIH/g6kSWQXUUL+Eb5yhfcDc7qnNt4e7wK6EmLjtzNIzt3LnPGtqAh8F FgIbPqui8g2jLBNm7ReU89Pp1OS4SE1+MITHYlwIX7B6KdYmrJUMHrBIi8gwMu1wjNyX Lr8A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm6+I0HjPAHA8r5ROcjs7QbPZ5lFy0vzX/Hog0SsHJp3XDzbrJ0Q5LsJulJE8KfhGVScl9n X-Received: by 10.220.77.65 with SMTP id f1mr2268574vck.48.1409845494021; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 08:44:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.214.4 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:44:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Matt Miller Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1e54adc15d705023f3b39 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/rpUwtxKYawci4PobAKfDsyeDrtw Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 15:46:05 -0000 --001a11c1e54adc15d705023f3b39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=8BMatt=E2=80=99s call, and i-json-03 are a month old. Are we done, p= lease? On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Matt Miller wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > The Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 ended a > couple of weeks ago. Other than an incorrect reference (RFC 7149 > versus RFC 7159), two other concerns were raised: > > * Whether binary data should be encoded as base64 or as base64url > * Defining an RFC 6906 profile URI > > With regards to base64 vs. base64url: The Chairs do not see any > consensus from the Working Group on which choice is better, which > means the draft's current text (recommending base64url) remains. > > With regards to a RFC 6906 profile URI: The Chairs do not see any > consensus to define such a profile. > > The Chairs ask the editor to produce a new draft that corrects the > reference to RFC 7149 with a reference to 7159. Once published, this > new draft will be submitted to the Area Director with a request to > send it to the IESG for publication. > > > Thank you, > > - - Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJT4RSDAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO19FsH/j3n/RdjFZijC5ts8H13J0kq > 9X2jEmJJtYkUVWb9etKMZ1/KHk8AIzIYwHCsBgqkfaCyl4HHnfhqQB/INqmC/DJl > Yz7boqjsbYnJBwdDUlhKUmszzzYXMoomRK5gSRpIEYfh6Hr2Sc2rhKgxPdJelVcL > CHVOWOnlpJHX0M06qZgF0Yuw0j6jOWukURp3d/PZl6CSbbuENfSDZlAmkwx/BEpV > s9XjqEMGba+VvkfihsSLaJ+s5xPerBXfBLka3xPM00gFKpjTSuGrtxODeWjEmZ4P > En0MdhorU1jlhxljkHVdCwVV9JUf9U0o9z46S+PFCLfIyUhzBXo21s/f6lc28Pg=3D > =3DS68M > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c1e54adc15d705023f3b39 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=E2= =80=8BMatt=E2=80=99s call, and i-json-03 are a month old. Are we done, plea= se?



On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Matt Miller <mamille2@cisco.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

The Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 ended a
couple of weeks ago.=C2=A0 Other than an incorrect reference (RFC 7149
versus RFC 7159), two other concerns were raised:

* Whether binary data should be encoded as base64 or as base64url
* Defining an RFC 6906 profile URI

With regards to base64 vs. base64url: The Chairs do not see any
consensus from the Working Group on which choice is better, which
means the draft's current text (recommending base64url) remains.

With regards to a RFC 6906 profile URI: The Chairs do not see any
consensus to define such a profile.

The Chairs ask the editor to produce a new draft that corrects the
reference to RFC 7149 with a reference to 7159.=C2=A0 Once published, this<= br> new draft will be submitted to the Area Director with a request to
send it to the IESG for publication.


Thank you,

- - Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman
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=3DS68M
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_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a11c1e54adc15d705023f3b39-- From nobody Thu Sep 4 08:49:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F661A898B for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fbmPEPuCwsbt for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B82A1A899F for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:48:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2240; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1409845717; x=1411055317; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DhjUuS3Gkbk8nTisjno4lGiT4Xc3qEvDUCYsHY/PRHI=; b=GI1VNxfM5zHrj8t+37vc+bQfENv2rQfEEncGc4nsKRXnqOCSusVOzFyc vsXaygYThK0FTCmj1Z0KZPlPDm6uoJH+JW2+RksuXjIUuFkO6Q0eYXr/9 HvYchProlxZPqieULHq2pEr9adOP7RDcKN9ic3A7mAPKgw6EIV4mT7tmU s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AosLAECJCFStJA2G/2dsb2JhbABZgw1TVwSCeKxGBQFvl2sKh0wBgQUWd4QEAQEEAQEBIA8BOwoBEAsOCgICBRYIAwICCQMCAQIBFR8RBg0BBQIBAYg+DacYlWkBEwSBLIRQiR4zB4J5gVMFizSKOoZ+hzmNaYFpHIF7TYFIgQcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,466,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="352668928" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Sep 2014 15:48:37 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s84Fmaxl028848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:48:36 GMT Received: from [10.129.24.68] (10.129.24.68) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:48:36 -0500 Message-ID: <540889D3.2060308@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 09:48:35 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.68] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/eYJX7WWcE-f7SWdmanmwVyE0hr4 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 15:49:22 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 9/4/14, 9:44 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > ​Matt’s call, and i-json-03 are a month old. Are we done, please? > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Matt Miller > wrote: > > The Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 ended a > couple of weeks ago. Other than an incorrect reference (RFC 7149 > versus RFC 7159), two other concerns were raised: > > * Whether binary data should be encoded as base64 or as base64url * > Defining an RFC 6906 profile URI > > With regards to base64 vs. base64url: The Chairs do not see any > consensus from the Working Group on which choice is better, which > means the draft's current text (recommending base64url) remains. > > With regards to a RFC 6906 profile URI: The Chairs do not see any > consensus to define such a profile. > > The Chairs ask the editor to produce a new draft that corrects the > reference to RFC 7149 with a reference to 7159. Once published, > this new draft will be submitted to the Area Director with a > request to send it to the IESG for publication. > > > Thank you, > > - Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman > > _______________________________________________ json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > > > > -- - Tim Bray (If you’d like to send me a private message, see > https://keybase.io/timbray) Yes, I think we are. I got distracted away from this, but will get this handed off to the IESG soon. - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJUCInTAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1CCYIAJjfgoRguoBIylA+asJv16Bc ALPBcZ8p9j/NdpD8ICvIfCJagZ7EKXdzWf98QUaAr5hIVDwfA7CrlDr/4UMnl1YX 1DQKqNmuSMkPw59tXO1ZcockPaf4BsAflp75buz2CLmIPRcHBuKSQI4moPt8osKy BmIsoFvxKEcTeXFB9GLf+3eKqnaRt7n9k2t96GoIlSxOXY5edM/JTrkTt41wTBZe iJg8+bW9W87wq++PU9gvgggD9DuO6rYnnVz2Z7+1hym6eTSq43WV0YQNNm3PdgoK Y9fkffTvdX2S4sAgm8No2jqxqlcFy5pSPjr0fgwnh4kUP2FDpCBO3wGbj/H+h8c= =zT1b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Mon Sep 8 20:43:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AB81A06BC for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 20:43:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.034 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.034 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UL0lWBT8mXmK for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 20:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0EA1A06C3 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 20:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF03264059; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 20:43:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=9HcczkEANJgegqmxpNKwunYJcJw=; b=ll/T5PFXGK0 D7TSijD+YFa07I+vc1LlSKe2P4t68o+4dg3NKt1wKSfJVvVXyk/mmwbpEhIbTiMu zECCdX4Ol9bj8agsNDCe3/bbUOg93tYUz85UYaqJ9fWBri8l/cHVxsaFVjEgua+d Rc0/bDV9q6Uihw5QN3doteyN1Li2W46M= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BC592264058; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 20:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 22:43:19 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/s_WZFPdk9UaNDl5QvKkn6z8bCvY Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 03:43:22 -0000 On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 05:13:06PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote= : > On 8/28/14, 10:05 AM, ""Martin J. D=FCrst"" wr= ote: >=20 > >Also, there is still a lack of confirming comments (something along th= e=20 > >lines of 'I read it - please ship it'). Even the above repeated beggin= g=20 > >from Paul to help the chairs determine consensus has only let to more=20 > >bikeshedding. >=20 > In this case, one person's bikeshed is another person's technical conce= rn.=20 > Once we get the ABNF straightened out, I'm a strong +1 on publishing th= is=20 > document. Alright, for the ABNF I propose two definitions, one for the parser: sequence =3D *(1*RS thing 1*RS) ; contains a JSON-text RS =3D %x1E thing =3D *all-but-RS-chars all-but-RS-chars =3D %x00-%x1D / %x1F-%xFF and one for the encoder: sequence =3D *(RS JSON-text RS) JSON-text =3D This would yield a reusable sequence scheme that could work for XML too, if anyone wanted it. It might be useful to change the MIME type from application/json-seq to application/seq-json so that a putative future application/seq-xml fits right in. Nico --=20 From nobody Mon Sep 8 22:57:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B581C1A0ADD for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 22:57:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id COOPk6tXpsJA for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 22:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9258A1A0AEF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2014 22:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.160] ([93.217.87.33]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MUI8w-1XrBRE2shm-00Qzeq; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:51:42 +0200 Message-ID: <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:51:31 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:tTrL7RI9uNUUD9aQHXR1QSoR6B+chffDFc1A5bEr5/Is28nhW67 8MGGVCcKvtMht8LSH4oovnk1oJbFyEfxKF9nDJ2yMsc3HrRPwIu1t+HSpijsNxxkCVap5EW tNwqUYn071SYQ1RXehS3o6MlWZ7oTVEjtIdd5TDqpc9uHGT6tmM9vTqGnlsHHxEgyPjFEXS suDy8LsYlvlFjtDTEudvA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/l-V1f8YzOFOgLzKE26EWUSqIP5c Cc: =?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 05:57:26 -0000 On 2014-09-09 05:43, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 05:13:06PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: >> On 8/28/14, 10:05 AM, ""Martin J. Drst"" wrote: >> >>> Also, there is still a lack of confirming comments (something along the >>> lines of 'I read it - please ship it'). Even the above repeated begging >> >from Paul to help the chairs determine consensus has only let to more >>> bikeshedding. >> >> In this case, one person's bikeshed is another person's technical concern. >> Once we get the ABNF straightened out, I'm a strong +1 on publishing this >> document. > > Alright, for the ABNF I propose two definitions, one for the parser: > > sequence = *(1*RS thing 1*RS) ; contains a JSON-text > RS = %x1E > thing = *all-but-RS-chars > all-but-RS-chars = %x00-%x1D / %x1F-%xFF > > and one for the encoder: > > sequence = *(RS JSON-text RS) > JSON-text = > ... Almost. RFC 7159 uses ABNF to describe sequences of characters, not octets. If you want to mix this ABNF with RFC 7159 productions, you'd need to be consistent with that. For instance: all-but-RS-chars = %x00-1D / %x1F-10FFFF (and you've got the ABNF range syntax wrong) Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Sep 9 07:43:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2725B1A6FDE for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uy6ahI_LsZLC for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57291A0AE9 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE54768064; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:43:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=M84wYjYLaOL9hKm1pNCXEwaR35U=; b=jNpS9RFzo0f Sf9fNyslr3jjQFzP2UDvdw688aMrFBFjaryhQfTcjnJJ6pzmHOZ7eSiD3U8HmNS+ 1y+U2gXNBESnWl+hafrlNxvU1Rhtx9y1V45CzoDSdQPlXecnC8rMRt4KIEvyLM3a dyfoKskfD+KsRRv7ejR1FYyNIVmAfGY8= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 40B8B76805C; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 09:43:36 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <20140909144334.GA9898@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/z7cNQXv27JUm15HyVilVJjMUYzc Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 14:43:49 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 07:51:31AM +0200, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2014-09-09 05:43, Nico Williams wrote: > >On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 05:13:06PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wr= ote: > >>On 8/28/14, 10:05 AM, ""Martin J. D=FCrst"" = wrote: > >> > >>>Also, there is still a lack of confirming comments (something along = the > >>>lines of 'I read it - please ship it'). Even the above repeated begg= ing > >>>from Paul to help the chairs determine consensus has only let to mor= e > >>>bikeshedding. > >> > >>In this case, one person's bikeshed is another person's technical con= cern. > >>Once we get the ABNF straightened out, I'm a strong +1 on publishing = this > >>document. > > > >Alright, for the ABNF I propose two definitions, one for the parser: > > > > sequence =3D *(1*RS thing 1*RS) ; contains a JSON-text > > RS =3D %x1E > > thing =3D *all-but-RS-chars > > all-but-RS-chars =3D %x00-%x1D / %x1F-%xFF > > > >and one for the encoder: > > > > sequence =3D *(RS JSON-text RS) > > JSON-text =3D > >... >=20 > Almost. >=20 > RFC 7159 uses ABNF to describe sequences of characters, not octets. > If you want to mix this ABNF with RFC 7159 productions, you'd need > to be consistent with that. For instance: >=20 > all-but-RS-chars =3D %x00-1D / %x1F-10FFFF The idea is that between the RS brackets there's just octets. You find those and then interpret them as JSN-texts. They might not be well-formed, and they might not even be valid UTF-8 due to the logfile unreliable append issues. > (and you've got the ABNF range syntax wrong) Yes: all-but-RS-chars =3D %x00-1D / %x1F-FF Nico --=20 From nobody Tue Sep 9 07:53:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6D01A6FB3 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y9PhWcfnFiXh for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 779B31A6FB2 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.26] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LezI3-1Y9nlE1fTT-00qmHc; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 16:53:07 +0200 Message-ID: <540F1447.8010502@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 16:52:55 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> <20140909144334.GA9898@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909144334.GA9898@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:x/E3doDRkMUNevrTu/j3gQA4PYJTc+QrJLwvaN4SGUzaoibVS3Z hLTzsadSIxpVOXgUE2mxrLN4sqyKrTbumj9jYpvyi5uI4gBx79Lu2WnnKIM8tWhl32uAyMy 3y7zXk4HnTM5w4ULicDmsO5drN4cKbCeSmwxPUIPVlzh4S6xs5SZFKji5ddZf/XmTSWc4Yn DKQAp5RGC7YzIZgWVwAbw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Pu7kCd36GK-sza-UzYOVDaW8InA Cc: =?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 14:53:14 -0000 On 2014-09-09 16:43, Nico Williams wrote: > ... >>> Alright, for the ABNF I propose two definitions, one for the parser: >>> >>> sequence = *(1*RS thing 1*RS) ; contains a JSON-text >>> RS = %x1E >>> thing = *all-but-RS-chars >>> all-but-RS-chars = %x00-%x1D / %x1F-%xFF >>> >>> and one for the encoder: >>> >>> sequence = *(RS JSON-text RS) >>> JSON-text = >>> ... >> >> Almost. >> >> RFC 7159 uses ABNF to describe sequences of characters, not octets. >> If you want to mix this ABNF with RFC 7159 productions, you'd need >> to be consistent with that. For instance: >> >> all-but-RS-chars = %x00-1D / %x1F-10FFFF > > The idea is that between the RS brackets there's just octets. You find > those and then interpret them as JSN-texts. They might not be > well-formed, and they might not even be valid UTF-8 due to the logfile > unreliable append issues. I get that and I agree with it. The trouble is that this spec uses ABNF on the octet level (ok), the JSON spec uses it on the character level (also ok), and you propose to mix productions from both specs -> trouble. So minimally, this: sequence = *(RS JSON-text RS) JSON-text = would need to become something like: sequence = *(RS JSON-text RS) JSON-text = >> (and you've got the ABNF range syntax wrong) > > Yes: > > all-but-RS-chars = %x00-1D / %x1F-FF > > Nico Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Sep 9 08:03:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CD41A6FB3 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:03:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggm1pY5FwLW8 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3551A6FE3 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7521DE083; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:03:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=oHWGAPbTjKyhvA FknMQ4t7VKOYA=; b=uIkWzsoS2me1Zjsu7TlavPy7ZVuCC4Mkb40wvrjhMctVR3 gVRL/bI2X+mF+QA/ZUDWF6Mgf+lMaMXHVnxiothkjXhrco5dR2bkKde6T8V5dQjk +M9QEsjMWQBBWw3TvwN4kY/nRjCBzQggvohUZHE0McCDrb8F0MN9C56JouzVI= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D108D1DE081; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 10:03:28 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <20140909150325.GA10013@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> <20140909144334.GA9898@localhost> <540F1447.8010502@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <540F1447.8010502@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/-EdxI6XsNVPCH6WV_wLcbwOd4Y8 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 15:03:38 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 04:52:55PM +0200, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2014-09-09 16:43, Nico Williams wrote: > >The idea is that between the RS brackets there's just octets. You find > >those and then interpret them as JSN-texts. They might not be > >well-formed, and they might not even be valid UTF-8 due to the logfile > >unreliable append issues. > > I get that and I agree with it. > > The trouble is that this spec uses ABNF on the octet level (ok), the > JSON spec uses it on the character level (also ok), and you propose > to mix productions from both specs -> trouble. No, I'm not mixing them, not on the parser side. You parse the sequence to get the texts, then you *separately* parse the texts. Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 9 08:17:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AF41A6FFC for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcMVSNFzQoc1 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BE711A6FDC for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.26] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Md31i-1XiUZt2BXe-00ICp5; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 17:17:15 +0200 Message-ID: <540F19EF.8020402@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 17:17:03 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> <20140909144334.GA9898@localhost> <540F1447.8010502@gmx.de> <20140909150325.GA10013@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909150325.GA10013@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:q/p2ELdNhCV4bnyR0xbjDEFI66ywv79RAKNxp9Z5YBg0wJH2BRX AO4eCEK3nzpJsCnsu59w/AJAgmjbHZoooE+27cNSIlNEs3qhKqKIF6p6WvBlyqRqoBAwbKe IvNXIrVHd5x4evg1VTHcOWpjI17XRJK3Ed7yTLzlDhVuWgDRq8y1COODMWo5TxMMkpKRqxN vRlrtx4EU5lW8noxA/N1g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/TSpdhbrq2IVxaDrMHXFCZFA-88U Cc: =?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 15:17:27 -0000 On 2014-09-09 17:03, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 04:52:55PM +0200, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2014-09-09 16:43, Nico Williams wrote: >>> The idea is that between the RS brackets there's just octets. You find >>> those and then interpret them as JSN-texts. They might not be >>> well-formed, and they might not even be valid UTF-8 due to the logfile >>> unreliable append issues. >> >> I get that and I agree with it. >> >> The trouble is that this spec uses ABNF on the octet level (ok), the >> JSON spec uses it on the character level (also ok), and you propose >> to mix productions from both specs -> trouble. > > No, I'm not mixing them, not on the parser side. You parse the sequence > to get the texts, then you *separately* parse the texts. The ABNF that you proposed: > Alright, for the ABNF I propose two definitions, one for the parser: > > sequence = *(1*RS thing 1*RS) ; contains a JSON-text > RS = %x1E > thing = *all-but-RS-chars > all-but-RS-chars = %x00-%x1D / %x1F-%xFF > > and one for the encoder: > > sequence = *(RS JSON-text RS) > JSON-text = *does* mix them (for the encoder). I read it as if I could use the JSON-text production from , and that's not the case, right? Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Sep 9 08:22:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFC51A6FF4 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QV14l3RQGJ6e for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB6C1A6FF2 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9151B4061; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=bWIZF+eydNaR0H oWitLSkCSq9r0=; b=SGj+xpaFCrAa4aUzUh/GDeWlNwiEiKyj3Pbuxc5lToS0Z6 2gBexPiJJsEZcAL06T9XkUAl3guOtTVqnlg5qli8g7mjbBBgg5nsi8xtpCpVUdeK hb8xGVudcL8WUHyfvTd5qhISAl+h36qMm7Sn/IhJ1Y0yjV7g71Wk7PaZX06+Y= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2063B1B4059; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 10:22:00 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <20140909152158.GB10013@localhost> References: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <540E9563.1080705@gmx.de> <20140909144334.GA9898@localhost> <540F1447.8010502@gmx.de> <20140909150325.GA10013@localhost> <540F19EF.8020402@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <540F19EF.8020402@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/v_y8yqcXtbqEv64y-4MfOnmaj1Y Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 15:22:03 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 05:17:03PM +0200, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2014-09-09 17:03, Nico Williams wrote: > >No, I'm not mixing them, not on the parser side. You parse the sequence > >to get the texts, then you *separately* parse the texts. > > The ABNF that you proposed: > > > sequence = *(1*RS thing 1*RS) ; contains a JSON-text > > RS = %x1E > > thing = *all-but-RS-chars > > all-but-RS-chars = %x00-%x1D / %x1F-%xFF There's nothing above about JSON-text, except in a comment :) > >and one for the encoder: > > > > sequence = *(RS JSON-text RS) > > JSON-text = > > *does* mix them (for the encoder). I read it as if I could use the > JSON-text production from > , and that's not the case, > right? On the encoder side there's no all-but-RS-chars. These are two distinct rules. The parser ABNF has no direct reference to any rules from RFC7159 -- it deals only with octet strings. The encoder ABNF does have a reference to RFC7159 and does not otherwise deal with any kind of string. Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 9 13:05:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2333F1A0100 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:05:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_26=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDnd58w7h_RT for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB1801A00FA for ; 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Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:05:28 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com ([173.37.183.79]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:05:27 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPwqfJ/ImJvqlILEePC9T5eHSoN5vmMKoAgBJePICAAK3RAA== Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/YBSSgrEOLwRnkuyWUufQ0eKSHs8 Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:05:30 -0000 T24gOS85LzE0LCAzOjQzIEFNLCAiTmljbyBXaWxsaWFtcyIgPG5pY29AY3J5cHRvbmVjdG9yLmNv bT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5BbHJpZ2h0LCBmb3IgdGhlIEFCTkYgSSBwcm9wb3NlIHR3byBkZWZpbml0 aW9ucywgb25lIGZvciB0aGUgcGFyc2VyOg0KPg0KPiAgICBzZXF1ZW5jZSA9ICooMSpSUyB0aGlu ZyAxKlJTKSAgIDsgPHRoaW5nPiBjb250YWlucyBhIEpTT04tdGV4dA0KPiAgICBSUyA9ICV4MUUN Cj4gICAgdGhpbmcgPSAqYWxsLWJ1dC1SUy1jaGFycw0KPiAgICBhbGwtYnV0LVJTLWNoYXJzID0g JXgwMC0leDFEIC8gJXgxRi0leEZGDQo+DQo+YW5kIG9uZSBmb3IgdGhlIGVuY29kZXI6DQo+DQo+ ICAgIHNlcXVlbmNlID0gKihSUyBKU09OLXRleHQgUlMpDQo+ICAgIEpTT04tdGV4dCA9IDxnaXZl biBieSBSRkM3MTU5Pg0KPg0KPlRoaXMgd291bGQgeWllbGQgYSByZXVzYWJsZSBzZXF1ZW5jZSBz Y2hlbWUgdGhhdCBjb3VsZCB3b3JrIGZvciBYTUwgdG9vLA0KPmlmIGFueW9uZSB3YW50ZWQgaXQu ICBJdCBtaWdodCBiZSB1c2VmdWwgdG8gY2hhbmdlIHRoZSBNSU1FIHR5cGUgZnJvbQ0KPmFwcGxp Y2F0aW9uL2pzb24tc2VxIHRvIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL3NlcS1qc29uIHNvIHRoYXQgYSBwdXRhdGl2 ZSBmdXR1cmUNCj5hcHBsaWNhdGlvbi9zZXEteG1sIGZpdHMgcmlnaHQgaW4uDQoNCkxlYXZpbmcg YXNpZGUgSnVsaWFuJ3MgaXNzdWVzLCB3aGljaCBJIGRvbid0IHlldCBoYXZlIGFuIG9waW5pb24g b24sIEkgDQp0aG91Z2h0IHdlIGhhZCB0YWxrZWQgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHRyYWlsaW5nIFJTIGFzIGJl aW5nIG9wdGlvbmFsIGZvciBtYW55IA0KYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLCBvbmx5IHJlYWxseSByZXF1aXJl ZCBpZiB5b3UncmUgc2VuZGluZyBiYXJlIG51bWJlcnM/ICBXaXRoIA0KdGhhdCBzbGlnaHQgdHdl YWssIHRoZSBwYXJzZXIgd291bGQgYmU6DQoNCiAgICBzZXF1ZW5jZSA9ICooMSpSUyB0aGluZyAq UlMpDQoNCg0KYW5kIHRoZSBlbmNvZGVyOg0KDQogICAgc2VxdWVuY2UgPSAqKFJTIGRlbGltaXRl ZCkNCiAgICBkZWxpbWl0ZWQgPSAoZGVsaW1pdGVkLW51bWJlciAvIG5vbi1udW1iZXItdGV4dCkN CiAgICBkZWxpbWl0ZWQtbnVtYmVyID0gd3MgbnVtYmVyIHdzIFJTDQogICAgbm9uLW51bWJlci10 ZXh0ID0gd3Mgbm9uLW51bWJlci12YWx1ZSB3cw0KICAgIG5vbi1udW1iZXItdmFsdWUgPSBmYWxz ZSAvIG51bGwgLyB0cnVlIC8gb2JqZWN0IC8gYXJyYXkgLyBzdHJpbmcNCiAgICB3cyxudW1iZXIs ZmFsc2UsbnVsbCx0cnVlLG9iamVjdCxhcnJheSxzdHJpbmcgPSA8Z2l2ZW4gYnkgUkZDIDcxNTk+ DQoNCihldykuICBPciB3ZSBjb3VsZCBqdXN0IGV4cGxhaW4gdGhhdCBpbiB0aGUgdGV4dC4gIE9y IHdlIGNvdWxkIHNheSB0aGF0IA0KZW5jb2RlcnMgTVVTVCBpbmNsdWRlIGF0IGxlYXN0IG9uZSB0 cmFpbGluZyB3aGl0ZXNwYWNlIGNoYXJhY3RlciBpZiB0aGV5IA0Kd3JpdGUgYSBiYXJlIG51bWJl ci4NCg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Sep 9 13:19:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038531A017D for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNFzYNQ3xkYt for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427CF1A017C for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3DE10062; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:19:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=sHn3gtyjafEIGC B5UK1ykcs3c74=; b=heCtaSstsWRwAqgIyhjMyM0pbu8/sL7UgfJ014wzLiXY3b hgp+U6EYcFUlCWWzJHNyBUi29iYO8hIfdeqzNDivYLTLQJydGL6BqeKyFZLYd2gH SVFkIW5YYYXB2wt3U/DQqH3ljViJ8FKn0CcExk5hzFCo0SQOuBwxjfeeAeg4M= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9048C10059; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:19:35 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/__RZftDxmN8ELHcJQ5C32e_bAnM Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:19:37 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 08:05:27PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > Leaving aside Julian's issues, which I don't yet have an opinion on, I > thought we had talked about the trailing RS as being optional for many > applications, only really required if you're sending bare numbers? > With that slight tweak, the parser would be: > > sequence = *(1*RS thing *RS) Yes, but it's much easier to just say "always bracket with leading and trailing RS". Then we don't have to say anything about EOF and numbers. On a related note, the parser's ABNF does need to be this: sequence = *(1*RS thing) RS or sequence = *1(1*RS thing) RS) to account for the possibility of missing RSes (again, logfile incomplete writes). I.e., an encoder might write RS thing1 RS then RS thing2 RS but what actually gets written appears might well be: RS thing1 RS thing2 RS which should still parse as a sequence of those two things. A strict parser using 'sequence = *(1*RS thing *RS)' would fail to find thing2. > and the encoder: > > [...] > > (ew). Or we could just explain that in the text. Or we could say > that encoders MUST include at least one trailing whitespace character > if they write a bare number. If the WG wants this I'm fine with it. Heck, I'll go with whatever the WG wants. But it strikes me as unnecessarily complex just to optimize away one byte in the common case. No? Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 9 13:55:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5D51A88C3 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:55:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZ8nwpKkUH-8 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B6B71A88C0 for ; 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Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:55:20 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([173.37.183.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:55:20 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPwqfJ/ImJvqlILEePC9T5eHSoN5vmMKoAgBJePICAAK3RAIAAaImA//+lZYA= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:55:19 +0000 Message-ID: <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6X-Od-KyJcTkut3-5TvV_NKPEPg Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:55:27 -0000 T24gOS85LzE0LCA4OjE5IFBNLCAiTmljbyBXaWxsaWFtcyIgPG5pY29AY3J5cHRvbmVjdG9yLmNv bT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5idXQgd2hhdCBhY3R1YWxseSBnZXRzIHdyaXR0ZW4gYXBwZWFycyBtaWdo dCB3ZWxsIGJlOg0KPg0KPiAgICBSUyB0aGluZzEgUlMgdGhpbmcyIFJTDQo+DQo+d2hpY2ggc2hv dWxkIHN0aWxsIHBhcnNlIGFzIGEgc2VxdWVuY2Ugb2YgdGhvc2UgdHdvIHRoaW5ncy4gIEEgc3Ry aWN0DQo+cGFyc2VyIHVzaW5nICdzZXF1ZW5jZSA9ICooMSpSUyB0aGluZyAqUlMpJyB3b3VsZCBm YWlsIHRvIGZpbmQgdGhpbmcyLg0KDQphcmUgeW91IHNheWluZyB0aGUgZ3JlZWRpbmVzcyBvZiB0 aGUgKlJTIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQgd291bGQgZWF0IHVwIGFsbCBvZiANCnRoZSBSUydzLCBsZWF2aW5n IG5vbmUgZm9yIHRoZSBpbml0aWFsIDEqUlM/DQoNCiooMSpSUyB0aGluZykgUlMNCg0KDQppcyBh IGxpdHRsZSBjb3VudGVyLWludHVpdGl2ZSwgc2luY2UgeW91IHdvdWxkbid0IGltcGxlbWVudCBp dCB0aGF0IHdheSBvbiANCnRoZSBvdXRwdXQgc2lkZSwgYnV0IEknbSBmaW5lIHdpdGggaXQuICBZ b3VyIG90aGVyIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb246DQoNCioxKDEqUlMgdGhpbmcpIFJTKQ0KDQoNCmRvZXNuJ3Qg cGFyc2UgZm9yIG1lLiAgY291bGQgeW91IGFkZCBhbiBvcGVuIHBhcmVuIHRvIGNsYXJpZnksIHBs ZWFzZT8NCg0KPj4gYW5kIHRoZSBlbmNvZGVyOg0KPj4gDQo+PiAgICAgWy4uLl0NCj4+IA0KPj4g KGV3KS4gIE9yIHdlIGNvdWxkIGp1c3QgZXhwbGFpbiB0aGF0IGluIHRoZSB0ZXh0LiAgT3Igd2Ug Y291bGQgc2F5DQo+PiB0aGF0IGVuY29kZXJzIE1VU1QgaW5jbHVkZSBhdCBsZWFzdCBvbmUgdHJh aWxpbmcgd2hpdGVzcGFjZSBjaGFyYWN0ZXINCj4+IGlmIHRoZXkgd3JpdGUgYSBiYXJlIG51bWJl ci4NCj4NCj5JZiB0aGUgV0cgd2FudHMgdGhpcyBJJ20gZmluZSB3aXRoIGl0LiAgSGVjaywgSSds bCBnbyB3aXRoIHdoYXRldmVyIHRoZQ0KPldHIHdhbnRzLiAgQnV0IGl0IHN0cmlrZXMgbWUgYXMg dW5uZWNlc3NhcmlseSBjb21wbGV4IGp1c3QgdG8gb3B0aW1pemUNCj5hd2F5IG9uZSBieXRlIGlu IHRoZSBjb21tb24gY2FzZS4gIE5vPw0KDQpBcyBsb25nIGFzIHRoZSBmaWxlIGlzIHBhcnNlYWJs ZSB3aXRoIG9ubHkgb25lIFJTIGJldHdlZW4gcmVjb3Jkcywgc29tZSANCnBlb3BsZSB3aWxsIGxp a2VseSBnZW5lcmF0ZSB0aGUgZmlsZXMgdGhhdCB3YXksIG5vIG1hdHRlciB3aGF0IHRoZSANCmdl bmVyYXRvciBzZWN0aW9uIHNheXMuICBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgbXkgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiB3YXMgdGhl IG91dGVyIGxpbWl0IG9mIA0KY29tcGxleGl0eTsgaG9wZWZ1bGx5IHdlIGNhbiBjb21lIHVwIHdp dGggc29tZXRoaW5nIGJldHRlci4NCg0KLS0gDQpKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Tue Sep 9 14:25:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FEAC1A0316 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 14:25:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LcKbASlMmYq5 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 14:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a112.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F511A0299 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 14:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a112.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a112.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5837820078714; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 14:25:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Mx8NjhsDCiAKyo nJ1SO5nB7/eds=; b=v5TffqaTON+ENHcgieT3nRkujaIShXBvIC62YCef2YrTnT wOJsV3/HFI4Tc8hEWXLsxphxQAXUMjSzNkJjm+ju0IgrC91uRyMYe1GMkSwZ92+r MTv+YLMNtDSH8o3MBkWXJYNUfhIo/gO53HhxnhPJJuRTzgEGSDfVKSs9qBYA0= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a112.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E2D0120078710; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 14:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:25:43 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/gTdJ7gCPdPghWlHKuCYZk6SMyv0 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 21:25:45 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 08:55:19PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 9/9/14, 8:19 PM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > > are you saying the greediness of the *RS at the end would eat up all of > the RS's, leaving none for the initial 1*RS? For example, yes. > *(1*RS thing) RS > > is a little counter-intuitive, since you wouldn't implement it that way on > the output side, but I'm fine with it. Your other suggestion: I'm already splitting out the encoder side... > *1(1*RS thing) RS) > > doesn't parse for me. could you add an open paren to clarify, please? Whoops: *1((1*RS thing) RS) "A sequence consists of any number of members separated by RS; an empty string is an empty sequence." Otherwise an empty string/stream would not parse as an empty sequence :) > >If the WG wants this I'm fine with it. Heck, I'll go with whatever the > >WG wants. But it strikes me as unnecessarily complex just to optimize > >away one byte in the common case. No? > > As long as the file is parseable with only one RS between records, some > people will likely generate the files that way, no matter what the > generator section says. [...] Yes, and that's fine. > generator section says. I agree that my suggestion was the outer limit of > complexity; hopefully we can come up with something better. *nod* I think we're almost there. Thanks, Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 9 15:45:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DBC1A02FB for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:45:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OzyqHF7hYTHy for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C8DB1A0320 for ; 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Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:45:22 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com ([173.37.183.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:45:21 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPwqfJ/ImJvqlILEePC9T5eHSoN5vmMKoAgBJePICAAK3RAIAAaImA//+lZYCAAG0VgP//samA Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:45:20 +0000 Message-ID: <17B9B178-C259-4E52-A5E6-986BBC010779@cisco.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <842171EA37E057438B5889B2609CA8F0@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/dp0R20zq2jxLE9z3_iDGGXQBp9w Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 22:45:25 -0000 T24gOS85LzE0LCA5OjI1IFBNLCAiTmljbyBXaWxsaWFtcyIgPG5pY29AY3J5cHRvbmVjdG9yLmNv bT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5XaG9vcHM6DQo+DQo+ICAqMSgoMSpSUyB0aGluZykgUlMpDQoNCkkgYXNz dW1lIHlvdSBtZWFudDoNCg0KMSooKDEqUlMgdGhpbmcpIFJTKQ0KDQoNCj4iQSBzZXF1ZW5jZSBj b25zaXN0cyBvZiBhbnkgbnVtYmVyIG9mIG1lbWJlcnMgc2VwYXJhdGVkIGJ5IFJTOyBhbiBlbXB0 eQ0KPnN0cmluZyBpcyBhbiBlbXB0eSBzZXF1ZW5jZS4iDQoNCmFuZCBoZXJlLCAic3RyaW5nIiBp cyBhbWJpZ3VvdXMuICBJIHRoaW5rIGVtcHR5ICJ0aGluZyIgaXMgYmV0dGVyLCBvbmNlIHdlIA0K ZGVjaWRlIHdoYXQgYSB0aGluZyBpcy4NCg0KPk90aGVyd2lzZSBhbiBlbXB0eSBzdHJpbmcvc3Ry ZWFtIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBwYXJzZSBhcyBhbiBlbXB0eSBzZXF1ZW5jZSA6KQ0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHRo YXQ6DQoNClJTIFJTIFJTIHRydWUgUlMgUlMgUlMNCmFuZA0KUlMgdHJ1ZSBSUyB0cnVlIFJTDQoN CnNob3VsZCBib3RoIGJlIHZhbGlkIHN0cmVhbXMgd2l0aCBubyBlcnJvcnMgZ2VuZXJhdGVkLiAg V2hhdCBhYm91dDoNCg0KUlMgPHNwYWNlPiBSUw0KDQo/ICBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIHBy b2JhYmx5IGdlbmVyYXRlIHdoYXRldmVyIGVycm9yIHJlcG9ydGluZyB5b3UgZG8gDQpmb3IgbWFs Zm9ybWVkL3RydW5jYXRlZCB0aGluZ3MuDQoNCj5JIHRoaW5rIHdlJ3JlIGFsbW9zdCB0aGVyZS4N Cg0KQWZ0ZXIgdGFsa2luZyB3aXRoIE1hdHQgTWlsbGVyIGEgbGl0dGxlIGluIHRoZSBvZmZpY2Ug dGhpcyBhZnRlcm5vb24sIEknbSANCmEgbGl0dGxlIGNvbmNlcm5lZCB0aGF0IHdlIGhhdmUgc3Bl Y2lmaWVkIGEgZm9ybWF0IHRoYXQgbWlnaHQgYmUgYWJsZSB0byANCmRldGVjdCB0cnVuY2F0aW9u IG9uIHRoZSBwYXJzZSBzaWRlLCBidXQgd2UgZG9uJ3Qgc3BlY2lmeSBob3cgdGhhdCBtaWdodCAN CmJlIGRvbmUuICBGb3Igbm9uLW51bWJlcnMsIGl0J3MgcHJldHR5IGVhc3kuICBGb3IgYmFyZSBu dW1iZXJzLCB5b3Ugd291bGQgDQpjdXJyZW50bHkgaGF2ZSB0byBjb3VudCB0aGUgUlMncyBiZXR3 ZWVuIHJlY29yZHMuICBUaGF0IG1pZ2h0IGV2ZW50dWFsbHkgDQpiZSBtYWRlIHRvIHdvcmsgKHdp dGggYSBidW5jaCBvZiBlZmZvcnQgb24gb3VyIHBhcnQpLCBidXQgSSdtIHNrZXB0aWNhbC4gIA0K SSBkbyB0aGluayBhIG5vbi1SUyB3aGl0ZXNwYWNlIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgYmFyZSBudW1iZXJz IG1ha2VzIGl0IG11Y2ggDQplYXNpZXIgdG8gZGV0ZWN0IHRoZWlyIHRydW5jYXRpb24uDQoNCkFs dGVybmF0ZWx5LCBJJ2QgYmUganVzdCBmaW5lIHdhcm5pbmcgZm9sa3MgbmV2ZXIgdG8gZXhwZWN0 IHRvIGJlIGFibGUgdG8gDQpkZXRlcm1pbmUgd2hlbiBhIG51bWJlciBoYXMgYmVlbiB0cnVuY2F0 ZWQsIGFuZCB1c2luZyBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCBlbmNvZGluZyANCnN1Y2ggYXMgWzFdLCBbIjEiXSwg b3IgeyJudW0iOiAxfSBpZiB0aGV5IGNhcmUgYWJvdXQgdGhhdCBwcm9wZXJ0eS4gIEF0IA0Kd2hp Y2ggcG9pbnQgd2UgY2FuIGdvIGJhY2sgdG8gYSBzaW1wbGVyIGdyYW1tYXIuLi4NCg0KLS0gDQpK b2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Tue Sep 9 16:18:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F361A0455 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:18:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxq2gSkrJSdK for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751DB1A0426 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E20778057; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:18:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=yRH4piXaLiwZEB HgICA3HeqjKIA=; b=iZJNeohhItjMP2gNj2HEX4GZwVSU7rD+kQvcIFfmS1aVwQ 49bOVA8wZ5AfuOWakoJjNMXSoLcBeMmnWN4ihc8URm8Fy0BUQ+VycUZKTUDmOkZv 1Qm2UzKs4EE6JYFqGH3Kd0U9nBM9f2DRMya67lQTWIbxi64KUAWECxYT1Lg8c= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7696777801E; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 18:18:47 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140909231845.GG10013@localhost> References: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> <17B9B178-C259-4E52-A5E6-986BBC010779@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17B9B178-C259-4E52-A5E6-986BBC010779@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/S65JcOjFzdUUB1nqNfNEXM_mH_4 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 23:18:50 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 10:45:20PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 9/9/14, 9:25 PM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > [...]. What about: > > RS RS > > ? I think that should probably generate whatever error reporting you do > for malformed/truncated things. The parser could report detected truncation, but it should not stop. It should continue parsing, and that input would be an empty sequence. > >I think we're almost there. > > After talking with Matt Miller a little in the office this afternoon, I'm > a little concerned that we have specified a format that might be able to > detect truncation on the parse side, but we don't specify how that might > be done. For non-numbers, it's pretty easy. For bare numbers, you would > currently have to count the RS's between records. That might eventually > be made to work (with a bunch of effort on our part), but I'm skeptical. > I do think a non-RS whitespace at the end of bare numbers makes it much > easier to detect their truncation. Ah, yes, I see the point of the SP (I had a couple of weeks ago then I forgot). Suppose we write: RS 12345 SP RS then RS 56789 SP RS And suppose both get truncated so that what appears is: RS 123 RS 567 With the extra SP we get to tell that neither of those numbers is complete. OK, so, ignoring ABNF greediness, on the parser side we'd have: sequence = *(1*RS *all-but-RS ws) all-but-RS = %x00-1D / %x1F-FF ws = And on the encoder side we'd have: sequence = *(RS JSON-text ws) JSON-text = ws = But can we ignore ABNF greediness? I'm also willing to just have a warning about top-level numbers. The problem only really applies to resources written as logfiles, after all. Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 9 16:58:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E441A00E0 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 92F4w0w5C3U1 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A80F21A0013 for ; 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Tue, 9 Sep 2014 23:58:42 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([fe80::200:5efe:173.37.183.34%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 18:58:42 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPwqfJ/ImJvqlILEePC9T5eHSoN5vmMKoAgBJePICAAK3RAIAAaImA//+lZYCAAG0VgP//samAgABt74D//6aPAA== Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 23:58:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> <17B9B178-C259-4E52-A5E6-986BBC010779@cisco.com> <20140909231845.GG10013@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140909231845.GG10013@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.21.122.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <44A5560D111EEA4CA8840AE4C009052D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/l5JqZOLdPk8XLa3idcRczH9l4Uw Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 23:58:46 -0000 T24gOS85LzE0LCAxMToxOCBQTSwgIk5pY28gV2lsbGlhbXMiIDxuaWNvQGNyeXB0b25lY3Rvci5j b20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+VGhlIHBhcnNlciBjb3VsZCByZXBvcnQgZGV0ZWN0ZWQgdHJ1bmNhdGlv biwgYnV0IGl0IHNob3VsZCBub3Qgc3RvcC4gIEl0DQo+c2hvdWxkIGNvbnRpbnVlIHBhcnNpbmcs IGFuZCB0aGF0IGlucHV0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGFuIGVtcHR5IHNlcXVlbmNlLg0KDQpZZXMsIGFic29s dXRlbHkuICBBIHJlY292ZXJhYmxlIGVycm9yLg0KDQo+V2l0aCB0aGUgZXh0cmEgU1Agd2UgZ2V0 IHRvIHRlbGwgdGhhdCBuZWl0aGVyIG9mIHRob3NlIG51bWJlcnMgaXMNCj5jb21wbGV0ZS4NCg0K RXhhY3RseS4NCg0KPk9LLCBzbywgaWdub3JpbmcgQUJORiBncmVlZGluZXNzLCBvbiB0aGUgcGFy c2VyIHNpZGUgd2UnZCBoYXZlOg0KPg0KPiAgICBzZXF1ZW5jZSA9ICooMSpSUyAqYWxsLWJ1dC1S UyB3cykNCj4gICAgYWxsLWJ1dC1SUyA9ICV4MDAtMUQgLyAleDFGLUZGDQo+ICAgIHdzID0gPGdp dmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+DQoNCkF0IHRoaXMgcG9pbnQsIHlvdSBjb3VsZCBwcm9iYWJseSBqdXN0 IG1hbmRhdGUgYSBMRiBmb3IgdGhlIHdzLCBhbmQgDQpldmVyeW9uZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBoYXBweS4u Lg0KDQooL21lIGR1Y2tzIHRoZSByb3R0ZW4gZnJ1aXQgYW5kIHZlZ2V0YWJsZXMgYmVpbmcgdGhy b3duIGJ5IHRoZSBjaGFpcnMpDQoNCg0KPkFuZCBvbiB0aGUgZW5jb2RlciBzaWRlIHdlJ2QgaGF2 ZToNCj4NCj4gICAgc2VxdWVuY2UgPSAqKFJTIEpTT04tdGV4dCB3cykNCj4gICAgSlNPTi10ZXh0 ID0gPGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+DQo+ICAgIHdzID0gPGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+DQo+DQo+ QnV0IGNhbiB3ZSBpZ25vcmUgQUJORiBncmVlZGluZXNzPw0KDQpJIGRvbid0IHNlZSBhIGdyZWVk aW5lc3MgcHJvYmxlbSBhbnkgbW9yZSBvbiB0aGUgZGVjb2RlciBzaWRlLiAgWW91IA0KZ3JlZWRp bHkgZWF0IFJTIHVudGlsIHlvdSBnZXQgbm90LVJTLCB0aGVuIGdvIHVudGlsIHlvdSBnZXQgUlMg b3IgRU9GLiAgSWYgDQp0aGUgcHJldmlvdXMgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHdhc24ndCB3cyAob3IgTEYpLCBn ZW5lcmF0ZSBhIHJlY292ZXJhYmxlIA0KdHJ1bmNhdGlvbiBlcnJvci4gIEVsc2UgcGFyc2Ugd2hh dCBjYW1lIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIFJTIGFuZCB0aGUgd3MgKG9yIExGKS4NCg0KDQo+SSdtIGFsc28g d2lsbGluZyB0byBqdXN0IGhhdmUgYSB3YXJuaW5nIGFib3V0IHRvcC1sZXZlbCBudW1iZXJzLiAg VGhlDQo+cHJvYmxlbSBvbmx5IHJlYWxseSBhcHBsaWVzIHRvIHJlc291cmNlcyB3cml0dGVuIGFz IGxvZ2ZpbGVzLCBhZnRlcg0KPmFsbC4NCg0KWWVzLiAgQW5kIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIG15c2VsZiBl dmVyIHdyaXRpbmcgcGxhaW4gbnVtYmVycyBmb3IgdGhvc2UgDQphcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMuICBEb2Vz IGFueW9uZSBlbHNlIGhhdmUgYW4gb3Bpbmlvbj8NCg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoN Cg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Sep 9 17:10:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5301A0110 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XfAgj0yC1aB for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E681A010F for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB17508084; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:10:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=TLYxf+r21TKgVW q6eZtESuC6Dak=; b=gNnEDgTydZyUtINTmIqu5QrSk8f7hqtKR5bzPZVRCFGvUS tv9KB2EoHUmhFptJZ8/nk/yjHVyYuWAJp+FOyex+38WyIat40FBOPN4hCccXZrVR zly+kCOoB/cV+lKIjKLGL300jBrVFdNQbnHhHBYU9bRoKFaEyyefzfzzUSe8I= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 63847508072; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 19:09:59 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140910000955.GH10013@localhost> References: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> <17B9B178-C259-4E52-A5E6-986BBC010779@cisco.com> <20140909231845.GG10013@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xDqCBy7zr0V3w2Mu7DYNbzaui8k Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBE/HJzdCI=?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:10:02 -0000 On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 11:58:42PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > At this point, you could probably just mandate a LF for the ws, and > everyone would be happy... That's what I'd like, sure. But I'll take whatever it takes to finish. > (/me ducks the rotten fruit and vegetables being thrown by the chairs) :) > >But can we ignore ABNF greediness? > > I don't see a greediness problem any more on the decoder side. You > greedily eat RS until you get not-RS, then go until you get RS or EOF. If > the previous character wasn't ws (or LF), generate a recoverable > truncation error. Else parse what came between the RS and the ws (or LF). Fair enough! Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 9 22:09:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30781A04B4 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:09:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qDXhR_kqj3ck for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.17.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD0531A035A for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.112.171]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MBTIY-1XYlPo3pEE-00AV3m for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:09:15 +0200 Message-ID: <540FDCFB.1080601@drees.name> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:09:15 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140909034312.GA9267@localhost> <20140909201933.GE10013@localhost> <65101B01-9AB0-4F94-BEAF-1AB96D8823B2@cisco.com> <20140909212541.GF10013@localhost> <17B9B178-C259-4E52-A5E6-986BBC010779@cisco.com> <20140909231845.GG10013@localhost> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:eWXui+9fhA1D1icXtXpsZk1fqKTou0cSTqUPs/RyWaTxlwSHSvY usEt7SJrZCoj4XtL7XgunIqIfi0MmjOY6JixTtoPgKLmq/rJ4ZUHf3/Qp3ypywkF4XLx793 oBq4Dq2jUuIawRc0N6K31F0hlbTD6V2z+ATDCJQdAQR54xufLtHkRa5C74ApT6uObU9tXKz /4iSS3fO7stojhNplmHWA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/fpZJwaq6j_9BN5xVU1e62B7zVO4 Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 05:09:19 -0000 On 2014-09-10 01:58 +02:00, Joe Hildebrand wrote: > On 9/9/14, 11:18 PM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > ... >> I'm also willing to just have a warning about top-level numbers. The >> problem only really applies to resources written as logfiles, after >> all. > > Yes. And I don't see myself ever writing plain numbers for those > applications. Does anyone else have an opinion? besides the elegance of correctly logging pi unadorned in a single eternal line :-?. No from my side a single lined +1 for avoiding bare top-level numbers as excuses for neither grammar nor procedural complications. "Stefan Drees" From nobody Mon Sep 15 11:28:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD0A1A6FE9 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdAFK2Lf7KF4 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 11:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBFCB1A01E2 for ; 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Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:49:45 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com ([173.37.183.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 12:49:45 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHP0Q1vTUaGvKCD5kerLyCqCMvIQw== Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:49:44 +0000 Message-ID: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.21.93.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <254B32320326EB47AAB6B4A4D7C75C9D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/SyKjygaAXW48uRjrSyGnL89sdOc Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:28:49 -0000 T24gOS8xMC8yMDE0LCA3OjA5YW0gU3RlZmFuIERyZWVzIHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+IGJlc2lkZXMgdGhl IGVsZWdhbmNlIG9mIGNvcnJlY3RseSBsb2dnaW5nIHBpIHVuYWRvcm5lZCBpbiANCj4gYSBzaW5n bGUgZXRlcm5hbCBsaW5lIDotPy4gTm8gZnJvbSBteSBzaWRlIGEgc2luZ2xlIGxpbmVkDQo+ICsx DQo+IGZvciBhdm9pZGluZyBiYXJlIHRvcC1sZXZlbCBudW1iZXJzIGFzIGV4Y3VzZXMgZm9yIG5l aXRoZXINCj4gZ3JhbW1hciBub3IgcHJvY2VkdXJhbCBjb21wbGljYXRpb25zLg0KDQoNCldvcmtz IGZvciBtZS4gIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB3ZSBtb3ZlIGZvcndhcmQgYnkgcmUtc2ltcGxpZnlpbmcgdGhl IGdyYW1tYXIsIA0KbWVyZWx5IGFkZGluZyBhIG5vdGUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGlzc3VlIHdpdGggZGV0 ZWN0aW5nIHRydW5jYXRlZCBudW1iZXJzLiAgSW4gDQphZGRpdGlvbiwgd2UgbWF5IHdhbnQgdG8g cHJvdmlkZSBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucyBvZiBhbHRlcm5hdGUgbnVtZXJpYyANCmVuY29kaW5ncyAoc3Vj aCBhcyAiMSIsIFsxXSwgb3IgeyJudW0iOjF9KSB0aGF0IGRvbid0IGhhdmUgdGhpcyBwcm9ibGVt Lg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Sep 15 13:32:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D951A86F6 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:32:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q_vF5oaj3Vw6 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC2A1A86ED for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1A226C06F for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Dx9fjxGTAaDiR/OWJJEs /vVyuHM=; b=QgABi3nAfqVTGZ3tgC0eKinmfgwl6PEZPfKEPrrTzpyKGFzz8IQK mV/IHVqr7QqjmhW5c7fjR4Zybc9PAUlOSSWQdInQnHRZq+vWgbPc+gBzweEgNl7m 3QUZHWF4GI4N2+hEvEhaACrAt86feANPWQKS3sYkU7c42nWJ6fBfhFY= Received: from mail-wi0-f177.google.com (mail-wi0-f177.google.com [209.85.212.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A94A26C069 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id em10so4964538wid.16 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.58.244 with SMTP id u20mr37286565wjq.36.1410813102197; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.32.135 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 15:31:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/YG-MO73UDoEC5O1iHAIVvh-y8Hg Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:32:00 -0000 OK, if the chair is OK with it I'll make these changes and submit a new version. Thanks, Nico -- From nobody Mon Sep 15 13:52:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E765A1A871D for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:52:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zy5zWvGheRhV for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24DA11A874A for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (142-254-17-178.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.17.178]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s8FKpsOK018567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:51:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 142-254-17-178.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.17.178] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:51:54 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/W8RDDfUF2EKq_cn0odklghhzVII Cc: Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:52:14 -0000 > OK, if the chair is OK with it I'll make these changes and submit a = new version. Make it so. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Tue Sep 16 00:02:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0191A03D6 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 00:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ID6Q-wKMEDK for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 00:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61FCC1A03F8 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 00:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.160] ([93.217.117.238]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LjZn2-1Y53PE01V2-00bepi; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:02:32 +0200 Message-ID: <5417E081.3000406@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:02:25 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman , Nico Williams References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:j7odiPgugFjspA9rW4DPACcOgDGdXbev63BWyncYLFF7Upj9QE/ KSyEx+hRwFD/IQOcxnS9e3f7wIsb9S9kiSKPUvPsJ/t839aE3gvoYKc3a37D7n7p3AXLsM5 87ASx3SwKoiDyoAOh6mZ8zQ21emnJkkbZYMLfbEsbjmlth6Nc5TcvIokP2WOkn6C/nMwv1W n3/U0w6VaaIGY65/0TXWA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/kZzexjFBaYKvszOmYLfkPqbC7a0 Cc: Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:02:40 -0000 On 2014-09-15 22:51, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> OK, if the chair is OK with it I'll make these changes and submit a new version. > > Make it so. FWIW, I still believe that the mix of octet-level and character-level ABNF productions is something that ought to be addressed. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Sep 16 07:31:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1911A0714 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0j7X3hDAvjTa for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBDE1A068A for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A532005D00A for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=xh7FFdkGhJlHYU3ynZq5 RrxZRmY=; b=Im8COal94CC7x0HHBpDzoCuWRsJmlUHGa6ET2qVyQVnVP+JqDU11 U6fbNDvce//WiT+lYV8c9CFE7aVibffeEUeaOD4nOxIHeA4PVSLd5HQUIHKu1pOi zlWXzYu5/lluxu9y1jzrGFfXKxv+R/uYR7YYuhF4s8NI/mS5tVLoJU8= Received: from mail-we0-f177.google.com (mail-we0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45F1E2005D001 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id u57so5716187wes.8 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.75.49 with SMTP id z17mr32744178wiv.3.1410877906092; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.32.135 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 07:31:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5417E081.3000406@gmx.de> References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> <5417E081.3000406@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:31:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043895336a0c7705032f9cdd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/2PyLErCzgaUhsUEg5CXMDjm65qo Cc: Paul Hoffman , Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 14:31:50 -0000 --f46d043895336a0c7705032f9cdd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2014-09-15 22:51, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> OK, if the chair is OK with it I'll make these changes and submit a new >>> version. >>> >> >> Make it so. >> > > FWIW, I still believe that the mix of octet-level and character-level ABNF > productions is something that ought to be addressed. > > Best regards, Julian > I thought. i did address it. It's like an ASN.1 OCTET STRING containing data in some other encoding. Here the sequence provides only a sequence of octets strings (not including RS, which doesn't need escaping because it never appears in the encoded strings). Then we say that those octet strings should be parsed as JSON texts, leaving that entirely to RFC7159. That's on the parser side. On the encoder side we don't bother with octet strings at all, just JSON-texts, LF, and RS. (Here RS is a single octet owing to its being an ASCII character.) Thus there is never any mixing of octet-level and character-level productions in any ABNF rules here. Nico -- --f46d043895336a0c7705032f9cdd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
On 2014-09-15 22:51, Paul Hoffman wrote:
OK, if the chair is OK with it I'll make these changes and submit a new= version.

Make it so.

FWIW, I still believe that the mix of octet-level and character-level ABNF = productions is something that ought to be addressed.

Best regards, Julian

I thought. i did address it. =C2=A0It'= s like an ASN.1 OCTET STRING containing data in some other encoding. =C2=A0= Here the sequence provides only a sequence of octets strings (not including= RS, which doesn't need escaping because it never appears in the encode= d strings). =C2=A0Then we say that those octet strings should be parsed as = JSON texts, leaving that entirely to RFC7159.

That= 's on the parser side.

On the encoder side we = don't bother with octet strings at all, just JSON-texts, LF, and RS. = =C2=A0(Here RS is a single octet owing to its being an ASCII character.)

Thus there is never any mixing of octet-level and ch= aracter-level productions in any ABNF rules here.=C2=A0

Nico
--=C2=A0
--f46d043895336a0c7705032f9cdd-- From nobody Tue Sep 16 10:05:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1311A8860 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CpR6kaSIzXr1 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 372941A8863 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.43.245] ([82.113.99.66]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mcgur-1Xlk1d06oD-00HvNv; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:05:50 +0200 Message-ID: <54186D65.5010501@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:03:33 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> <5417E081.3000406@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:YDMdnuZOV0NGweejBB5M/lAUsKAbonXO+5hicBKvppAyWJxGIw6 bCBSv97rXNmVzIhmo7HeXPgLpwZSM+jYC+dYugUWZPXLqD+HEyaD6YlAobZT7zgTWnvjVrL TVeiHeVJiPVHafH0UZUl/lA969MEim2I4h0fjW3cnuiCkdI8eYbFg9Yc83GYvi5dssq95nF bTLmnMsg/5jewbymayfRA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/AmjW6Mty77D_BVLvdc0NZzXX98Y Cc: Paul Hoffman , Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 17:05:59 -0000 On 2014-09-16 16:31, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, Julian Reschke > wrote: > > On 2014-09-15 22:51, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > OK, if the chair is OK with it I'll make these changes and > submit a new version. > > > Make it so. > > > FWIW, I still believe that the mix of octet-level and > character-level ABNF productions is something that ought to be > addressed. > > Best regards, Julian > > > I thought. i did address it. It's like an ASN.1 OCTET STRING containing > data in some other encoding. Here the sequence provides only a sequence > of octets strings (not including RS, which doesn't need escaping because > it never appears in the encoded strings). Then we say that those octet > strings should be parsed as JSON texts, leaving that entirely to RFC7159. > > That's on the parser side. > > On the encoder side we don't bother with octet strings at all, just > JSON-texts, LF, and RS. (Here RS is a single octet owing to its being > an ASCII character.) > > Thus there is never any mixing of octet-level and character-level > productions in any ABNF rules here. > ... There is a mix, as long as the octet-based ABNF in your spec re-uses a production from the JSON-spec, which operates at the character level. And yes, I understand the intent, but formally it's a problem. Rephrasing the reference to the RFC7159 production would be sufficient. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Sep 16 11:42:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4886A1A6F9F for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R36bqKhYdnZn for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a95.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FB31A6F68 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a95.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a95.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96F1E076 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=M1+/smivCvfha+b4KkpZ yuieeOE=; b=g+84AuryoYuquTt8DbXvtVvdt7wwpouHznEGB7KmPf1e37DB3PUB PC8n7wo8W1uv0fxD5k7i5HK/xSaVEQJI14XYuvZo/va0z1jQEde8+YsAlmuM9M7B wNmeRaj8C3VOwoOw+O50eLvVsh2a59e9Hr+o7nHKHbwcE4swcI5P2F4= Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a95.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D2C11E05D for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id e4so6841278wiv.17 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.27.132 with SMTP id jg4mr417528wid.28.1410892962818; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.32.135 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:42:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <54186D65.5010501@gmx.de> References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> <5417E081.3000406@gmx.de> <54186D65.5010501@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:42:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8e1hi9rdlCCfV0V1eruIsPgXug0 Cc: Paul Hoffman , Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:42:45 -0000 On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > There is a mix, as long as the octet-based ABNF in your spec re-uses a > production from the JSON-spec, which operates at the character level. Not on the parser side: it's one rule for the sequence, then you separately apply the JSON ABNF to the elements of the sequence, and each of those elements is an octet string at that point (which the JSON ABNF then treats as strings of characters). > And yes, I understand the intent, but formally it's a problem. Rephrasing > the reference to the RFC7159 production would be sufficient. It's no more a problem here than in Kerberos, in PKIX, or many other protocols where we use OCTET STRINGs that carry other BER-/DER-/whatever-encoded structures. I'll phrase this as the sequence (on the parser side) being a sequence of octet strings which are each further parsed as JSON texts. Nico -- From nobody Tue Sep 16 11:48:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829691A6EFF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:48:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OF7sUJbfWMuj for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 11:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48E551A037B for ; 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Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RnwH30G7n4bq for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AFD1A6EED for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E21B8076 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=hcRG9oNKcjmWUbTYi5K5 9rjLqf8=; b=Iu2VTavHihMxbzcr5XBm+qav9jEDJJnJdLhWdWNloYrxwrbblMr+ KrbX906O/FefdX8z0XrTEtcVPl53UVSipn7E7FgICMwlbIf81bQkjWPPUaFPsHRQ ysi8MuGzFN94Da2cJiNZKqJSrt+N2xj2fMdX8aSeHxP6AjGm/rxVjj0= Received: from mail-wg0-f51.google.com (mail-wg0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA36AB8074 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id k14so356345wgh.22 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.58.244 with SMTP id u20mr46218556wjq.36.1410897081312; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.32.135 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:51:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5BBD09AF-6260-4CD0-9B27-616A7F5BDA03@cisco.com> References: <7B907273-20BB-4630-89F3-E85C61377C55@cisco.com> <7CEAF8FB-8CCD-4383-AE20-7DD713DFFAC9@vpnc.org> <5417E081.3000406@gmx.de> <54186D65.5010501@gmx.de> <5BBD09AF-6260-4CD0-9B27-616A7F5BDA03@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 14:51:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/dfE4I8h8rRA_cE7z1d1NTmTG3EQ Cc: Julian Reschke , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:51:24 -0000 On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 9/16/14, 5:03 PM, "Julian Reschke" wrote: > >>There is a mix, as long as the octet-based ABNF in your spec re-uses a >>production from the JSON-spec, which operates at the character level. >> >>And yes, I understand the intent, but formally it's a problem. >>Rephrasing the reference to the RFC7159 production would be sufficient. > > I once again suggest something like: > > JSON-sequence = *(1*RS possible-JSON) > RS = %x1E; See RFC20 > > possible-JSON = 1*(not-RS); > not-RS = %x01-1d / %x1f-ff; > > and making sure we specify that the encoding for the bytes in > possible-JSON is *always* UTF8 unless it's malformed, which is a > recoverable parsing error. That's the intent, yes, especially the part about the texts always being UTF-8. Nico -- From nobody Wed Sep 17 15:06:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0591A6F98 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:06:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zAqXMpQ-Ealf for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22d.google.com (mail-la0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DE941A6F90 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b17so2771806lan.18 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:05:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=Xgrgl8oQmfVVGVg9jii2u7rORGFY0dH6Mj/19ajjUQ4=; b=UWIIODfetR/MFwGK0fy02On2eWpv4pgeM4GZ0066wye3QSV62WXwx/ncuknmimY9By e6j3L2iR5MxvJhX05Or66YJRFgeWNge62XLAmeb0nJe07uJbjKMO8UDJXY0LQx+n6ZU4 mY4vHpa36h7rTyGTKW8jVbW/q46JxbadX2mfzfxBOOo3yDnHm2G62jbJ6dXehhNeN1CI +UbNsAGED2ybzL0BaSc1aaf7LDJClU67onL61M0qx0/b67HzjuJxy4ItjZ/o5rkNM0wP KtjsgcFY/TSaGhsg5xyeLW0md0O6pIcGLiS5yd3D2d0SHwaaUaXPkDqU8SO4yIlVjAlu GIKw== X-Received: by 10.152.36.4 with SMTP id m4mr505267laj.17.1410991556515; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:05:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.11.202 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:05:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Christina Green Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:05:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: json@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160b95c81dafa05034a1207 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/zkvQ40bsqgZ7ELks5nRHcdhtLX0 Subject: Re: [Json] json Digest, Vol 20, Issue 7 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:06:00 -0000 --089e0160b95c81dafa05034a1207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 remove me from this list please, thank you On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:00 PM, wrote: > Send json mailing list submissions to > json@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > json-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > json-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of json digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence > (Nico Williams) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nico Williams > To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" > Cc: Julian Reschke , Paul Hoffman < > paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, IETF JSON WG > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 14:51:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence > On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) > wrote: > > On 9/16/14, 5:03 PM, "Julian Reschke" wrote: > > > >>There is a mix, as long as the octet-based ABNF in your spec re-uses a > >>production from the JSON-spec, which operates at the character level. > >> > >>And yes, I understand the intent, but formally it's a problem. > >>Rephrasing the reference to the RFC7159 production would be sufficient. > > > > I once again suggest something like: > > > > JSON-sequence = *(1*RS possible-JSON) > > RS = %x1E; See RFC20 > > > > possible-JSON = 1*(not-RS); > > not-RS = %x01-1d / %x1f-ff; > > > > and making sure we specify that the encoding for the bytes in > > possible-JSON is *always* UTF8 unless it's malformed, which is a > > recoverable parsing error. > > That's the intent, yes, especially the part about the texts always being > UTF-8. > > Nico > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > -- Christina Green 828-572-3265 --089e0160b95c81dafa05034a1207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
remove me from this list please, thank you

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:00 PM, = <json-request@ietf.org> wrote:
Send json mailing list submissions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 json@ietf.org<= /a>

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 json-r= equest@ietf.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 json-own= er@ietf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of json digest..."

Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Nico Williams)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Nico Williams= <nico@cryptonector.com>=
To:=C2=A0"Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" <jhildebr@cisco.com>
Cc:=C2=A0Julian Reschke <= ;julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Pa= ul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.o= rg>, IETF JSON WG <json@ietf.org= >
Date:=C2=A0Tue, 16 Sep 2014 14:51:21 -0500
Subject:=C2=A0Re:= [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence
On Tue, Se= p 16, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
<jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:=
> On 9/16/14, 5:03 PM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>There is a mix, as long as the octet-based ABNF in your spec re-use= s a
>>production from the JSON-spec, which operates at the character leve= l.
>>
>>And yes, I understand the intent, but formally it's a problem.<= br> >>Rephrasing the reference to the RFC7159 production would be suffici= ent.
>
> I once again suggest something like:
>
> JSON-sequence =3D *(1*RS possible-JSON)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RS =3D %x1E; See RFC20
>
> possible-JSON =3D 1*(not-RS); <attempt to parse this using RFC7159&= gt;
> not-RS =3D %x01-1d / %x1f-ff; <any byte except RS>
>
> and making sure we specify that the encoding for the bytes in
> possible-JSON is *always* UTF8 unless it's malformed, which is a > recoverable parsing error.

That's the intent, yes, especially the part about the texts always bein= g UTF-8.

Nico
--



_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json




--

Christina Green

--089e0160b95c81dafa05034a1207-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 20:26:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4024B1A0690; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJWK5mRnLjbP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E60B1A6F68; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:26:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.6.2.p6 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140918032617.29688.53181.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:26:17 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/NtiljwwE45DsNBD98x7CoXAOVHY Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:26:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2014-09-17 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type, "application/json-seq". The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Sep 18 10:15:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534A31A068B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JYxYuLaH4N0h for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5A691A064B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (142-254-17-178.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.17.178]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s8IHFdlL063161 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:15:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 142-254-17-178.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.17.178] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:15:38 -0700 To: IETF JSON WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Y01M1omfjqUMHEZCxKIWCodSTCE Subject: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:15:51 -0000 Greetings again. The second WG Last Call turned up some interesting = clarifications that might make the document more attractive to some = reviewers. This WG Last Call is to determine this. Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new = document could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios = described in the document. Note that this is *not* a request for = comments about whether or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a = request about the current document. The current document: URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 Diff: = http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Sep 18 10:50:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B189B1A0675 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eas_MMnT9k9F for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45D471A064B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8IHoSkC019380 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:50:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p548902C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.2.198]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58ED7905; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:50:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:50:24 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 432755424.641309-637a9d44880e7b28a6adb0e9801d2f1e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/MlHgoeMPgyrzzlIzWZZcF5WC_2o Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:50:32 -0000 I believe the technical content of the current document is now useful, = probably as useful as this approach can get. I noticed a couple of opportunities for editorial improvement: =97 The reference to ISO/IEC 646:1991 should probably be replaced by a = reference to RFC 20. There is little reason to reference a somewhat hard to obtain (CHF = 88!) external document when we have an RFC about the same subject. =97 I think the expansion of JSON in the title does a disservice to this = document. This is not about JavaScript. (I know we=92ll have to = negotiate with the RFC editor about adding JSON to the =93need not be = expanded in title=94 list.) =97 RFC 2119 errata. =97 the first ABNF needs to be clearly called out as about the sequence = of bytes, while the second ABNF is about a sequence of characters. =97 "disambiguate JSON-texts consisting of numbers at the top-level.=94 = is not clear about what is being achieved. There is no ambiguity about = numbers in JSON. 2.3 then clarifies what is meant, but the reader is = left stumped at the end of 2.2. =97 2.4 s/terminates/indicates/ (the RS does not terminate the old = JSON-text, but starts a new one; it is not consumed by the error = detection). =97 2.5 =93LF instead of RS=94 is confusing =97 I don=92t know of a = format that consistently uses a double LF between JSON-texts. =97 s/are not be/are not/ and a few more places where a fine comb might = help. Gruesse, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 18 11:18:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F2F1A04E7 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:18:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f9hZ-sN9X7u9 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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(xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com [173.36.12.77]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8IIINd4008962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:18:23 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com ([173.36.12.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:18:23 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences Thread-Index: AQHP02RNj5HurcNpX0mPS4vnYN7aVJwHIk8A Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:18:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/blI07GKlBGiDldUcfwEkt4lJdgM Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:18:27 -0000 T3ZlcmFsbCwgSSdtIHZlcnkgaGFwcHkgd2l0aCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBkcmFmdC4gIEkgdGhpbmsg aXQgc29sdmVzIHRoZSANCnByb2JsZW0gdGhhdCB3ZSBzZXQgb3V0IHRvIHNvbHZlLCBhbmQgSSB0 aGluayBpdCBtYXkgYWN0dWFsbHkgYmUgdXNlZnVsIGluIA0KcHJhY3RpY2UgKHdoaWNoIGlzIGEg YmlnIHN0ZXAgdXAgZnJvbSB3aGVyZSBJIHN0YXJ0ZWQgb24gdGhpcyB0b3BpYykuICBJIA0KaGF2 ZSBhIGZldyByZWxhdGl2ZWx5IG1pbm9yIGNvbW1lbnRzOg0KDQoNClNlY3Rpb24gMi4yOg0KDQoi SW4gcHJvc2U6IGFueSBudW1iZXIgb2YgSlNPTiB0ZXh0cywgZWFjaCBwcmVjZWRlZCBhbmQgZm9s bG93ZWQgYnkgb25lDQogICBvciBtb3JlIEFTQ0lJIFJTIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgYW5kIGVhY2ggZm9s 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPmpzb24gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+anNvbkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vanNvbg0KPg0KDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9l IEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Sep 18 11:22:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA35B1A06C8 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:22:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aj9kLhU5u9Eu for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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[10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5C0127E821FA144CA89E063F534EE233@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vF73fqDddi30S5raYnxoCxucQtU Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:22:10 -0000 T24gOS8xOC8xNCwgNTo1MCBQTSwgIkNhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiIgPGNhYm9AdHppLm9yZz4gd3Jv dGU6DQoNCj7igJQgVGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byBJU08vSUVDIDY0NjoxOTkxIHNob3VsZCBwcm9i YWJseSBiZSByZXBsYWNlZCBieSBhIA0KPnJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byBSRkMgMjAuDQo+ICBUaGVyZSBp cyBsaXR0bGUgcmVhc29uIHRvIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBhIHNvbWV3aGF0IGhhcmQgdG8gb2J0YWluIChD SEYgODghKSANCj5leHRlcm5hbCBkb2N1bWVudCB3aGVuIHdlIGhhdmUgYW4gUkZDIGFib3V0IHRo 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json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19D11A046B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rREYOGYMDFNV for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798E61A045D for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (142-254-17-178.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.17.178]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s8IIO2BN066004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:24:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 142-254-17-178.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.17.178] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:24:02 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5D6A7F2F-EDC1-4AD3-A122-13E75829AC85@vpnc.org> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/eAhPKeiIKHcQOL7lnDFKwr6Q_5g Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:24:07 -0000 I now have a use case for this functionality, and think that this = document now serves that use case well. It seems technically fine. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Sep 18 11:39:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B0A1A069A for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qeu_HKhdVxzU for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E9B31A06A5 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ij19so1139809vcb.0 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=kqpZ0bYLdKoMriekmcU+ZUO4cu8eraCaUOUrY1+negY=; b=NrsFLxVkuuN6rq4xlwq6dQGZc+b8cTt0fS6RzWZk3dN1XW9vgmn7+XT36FD2Ii8ikV wZEC0AaF1x4ncMs7bDhph/fkQ5qsCx1eF+FAL+gZ47F/E9/79ShmAzgjr0ec9owGSNJ5 rSVog/m1exErKGDk/fT7fZngZDGB+n6gmmlv7sWBJWiWlcHWbvHn/mXYUB1CFNMyDU9D /1hL8rKRyzSbFKG3AGHxV4T9+ExPMCVEcinT34QIkog4bg9e5CmvPTSiK2mqTi+TNfV4 c+PAe7A5o0JXQgJemQ1YFENB3QHY9Bh/aIqVgkVuUTxqlFmfMhE7A8uiZ9lBfz6m7vda 1T/w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnKSPs2B4bEBcA9H9TrJUogj1tznUZJsrtYJMAuSzNFnedj58+qF7T5P2ICEnUG/tv3LIVB X-Received: by 10.52.185.193 with SMTP id fe1mr763555vdc.31.1411065587359; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.214.4 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:39:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec548a39916f7b405035b4f59 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/tZ2-kapd9SA2tvTlPUYLbHsFnQw Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:39:54 -0000 --bcaec548a39916f7b405035b4f59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can see people using it, and I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in it. Suggested edits: lose this: =E2=80=9CTraditionally the way to do this with JSON is to use a "streaming" parser, but these are neither widely available, widely used, nor easy to use.=E2=80=9D In fact I=E2=80=99ve never seen one. The paragraph is shorter, simpler, and stronger without it. For similar reasons, lose: =E2=80=9Cwithout having to have a streaming parser (nor streaming encoder)=E2=80=9D s/JSON-text/JSON text/g The term as defined in 7159 has no hyphen Lose this sentence: =E2=80=9CThe rule for encoders, on the other hand, assu= mes that sequence elements are not truncated.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t understand it and what (I think) it=E2=80=99s saying is imp= licit anyhow. Adds no value. =E2=80=9Csee ISO 646-1991=E2=80=9D Huh? Why not just do a proper reference = to the current Unicode standard like 7159 does? I don=E2=80=99t think section 2.5 adds any value, but I=E2=80=99ve said thi= s before and it=E2=80=99s still there, so I might be in the rough here. On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Greetings again. The second WG Last Call turned up some interesting > clarifications that might make the document more attractive to some > reviewers. This WG Last Call is to determine this. > > Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new > document could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described > in the document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about > whether or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about t= he > current document. > > The current document: > > URL: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ > Htmlized: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 > Diff: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 > > --Paul Hoffman > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --bcaec548a39916f7b405035b4f59 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I c= an see people using it, and I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in it.

Suggested edits:

lose this: =C2=A0=E2=80=9CTraditionally the = way to do this with JSON is to use a "streaming"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0parser, but these are neither widely availa= ble, widely used, nor easy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0t= o use.=E2=80=9D

In fact I=E2=80=99ve never seen one. The paragraph is shorter= , simpler, and stronger without it.

<= /div>
For similar reasons, lose: =E2=80=9Cwitho= ut having to have a streaming
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0parser (nor streaming encoder)=E2=80=9D

s/JSON-text/JSON text/g =C2=A0The = term as defined in 7159 has no hyphen
Lose this sentence: =E2=80=9CThe rule f= or encoders, on the other hand, assumes that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sequence elements are not truncated.=E2=80=9D =C2=A0
=

I don= =E2=80=99t understand it and what (I think) it=E2=80=99s saying is implicit= anyhow. =C2=A0Adds no value.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default">=E2=80=9Csee ISO 646-1991=E2=80=9D Huh? Why not= just do a proper reference to the current Unicode standard like 7159 does?=

I= don=E2=80=99t think section 2.5 adds any value, but I=E2=80=99ve said this= before and it=E2=80=99s still there, so I might be in the rough here.


On Thu, Sep 18, 2014= at 10:15 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote= :
Greetings again. The second WG Last Cal= l turned up some interesting clarifications that might make the document mo= re attractive to some reviewers. This WG Last Call is to determine this.
Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new docume= nt could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described in the = document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about whether or n= ot you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about the current doc= ument.

The current document:

URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 h= ttp://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07.txt=
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatra= cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http:/= /www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07

--Paul Hoffman
_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a priv= ate message, see h= ttps://keybase.io/timbray)
--bcaec548a39916f7b405035b4f59-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 11:58:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CD21A03F1 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pdwNLZzFyCy0 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7841A03EF for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366E9BBA077; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:58:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=MzoYtIVPUKiXrxkplGzSUAC6T48=; b=Tl7feSR0ReO lzC2dHS4hTFHzHsB/6fteRIvlNc5EqrsRChIIXATCbCRLBvTtvFn91LS850qR0If sPYOuLqxZAdvrFLZ2jSgEboJiNQmKIdr5DnBLgWc/Tg7OxpQI75OjE+iOAm4s6M9 1ePnr6GlTyH8Whc2VmbjeBGI6oOxWP9U= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C9256BBA074; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:58:40 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140918185838.GA4071@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/TDuXk59oEV_ml048IIAUgjr5iLM Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:58:42 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:39:27AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > I can see people using it, and I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in it. >=20 > Suggested edits: >=20 > lose this: =E2=80=9CTraditionally the way to do this with JSON is to u= se a > "streaming" > parser, but these are neither widely available, widely used, nor eas= y > to use.=E2=80=9D >=20 > In fact I=E2=80=99ve never seen one. The paragraph is shorter, simpler,= and > stronger without it. Such things exist for XML... You pointed out that this format could be used with XML as well, and there that sentence would definitely be appropriate. (I do want to write a streaming parser for jq, but the idea is that subsets of a streaming parser's output would be reduced by jq programs into proper values. That would reduce jq's need for this format, but it's non-trivial, and the format would remain useful.) > s/JSON-text/JSON text/g The term as defined in 7159 has no hyphen Ah. > Lose this sentence: =E2=80=9CThe rule for encoders, on the other hand, = assumes that > sequence elements are not truncated.=E2=80=9D OK. > =E2=80=9Csee ISO 646-1991=E2=80=9D Huh? Why not just do a proper refere= nce to the current > Unicode standard like 7159 does? For the parsing rules ASCII is sufficient, though even that is not a requirement. We picked RS because its designation in ASCII was conceptually convenient, but we don't need to say it came from there. I used ISO 646-1991 only because there's no bibxml for RFC 20(!). I'd be happy to downgrade this to an informational reference. > I don=E2=80=99t think section 2.5 adds any value, but I=E2=80=99ve said= this before and > it=E2=80=99s still there, so I might be in the rough here. But does it do any harm (maybe!)? What if I change that section's title to "Historical note"? It could cause harm if implementors get pressured into supporting the old format in their parsers. I think this unlikely to be a problem though. I do think this section adds value because there exist apps that use that format, and while encoders of this format may not produce the old one, parsers might get a lot of mileage out of handling the old one too. Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Sep 18 12:10:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16B61A0412 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jtzI8dCTSbPP for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34FA1A03B5 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8CA778070; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:10:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=c4TiErrZH3s71mdO7QkYrTN+mp8=; b=XeW1cZibFwq WpRsbJaef5swP2nnWWwYOO/IznbRBUa2mRvdAAH5wViTjhJhtDw7R62l1VuxiM/y X3UJZfFd6HAhmK6vaPH9HIiVCB/boXk83FegSzSggTPru/w8p6Ef9bt3FVLXbzlx Jit8UJMzxETeUIXA2k8+T2sAzlM+O0Dk= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6830F77806E; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:10:07 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140918191005.GB4071@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/cFmqM2YNVmtpkJoUNJ6H1oZtk64 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:10:10 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 07:50:24PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > I believe the technical content of the current document is now useful, > probably as useful as this approach can get. Great. > I noticed a couple of opportunities for editorial improvement: >=20 > =E2=80=94 The reference to ISO/IEC 646:1991 should probably be replaced= by a > reference to RFC 20. There is little reason to reference a somewhat > hard to obtain (CHF 88!) external document when we have an RFC about > the same subject. I used it only because there's no bibxml for RFC 20. Oh, wait! No, there is, it's RFC.0020.xml. Fine, I'll switch back to RFC 20. We could also make the ASCII reference informational, since we don't really need ASCII, just the byte value 0x1E and a name for it (RS). We do need to point out that 0x1E can't happen in a properly formed JSON-text, and I do point that out, but there's no need to have more than a normative reference to RFC7159 for this. The reference to ASCII should be informational. > =E2=80=94 I think the expansion of JSON in the title does a disservice = to > this document. This is not about JavaScript. (I know we=E2=80=99ll ha= ve to > negotiate with the RFC editor about adding JSON to the =E2=80=9Cneed no= t be > expanded in title=E2=80=9D list.) Sure. > =E2=80=94 RFC 2119 errata. Hmm? > =E2=80=94 the first ABNF needs to be clearly called out as about the se= quence > of bytes, while the second ABNF is about a sequence of characters. The text in section 2.1 says "octets" and "octet string" in several places. Is that not enough? I don't think the text in section 2.2 has to say anything about characters: it imports JSON-text from RFC7159, so that should be implied. > =E2=80=94 "disambiguate JSON-texts consisting of numbers at the top-lev= el.=E2=80=9D > is not clear about what is being achieved. There is no ambiguity > about numbers in JSON. 2.3 then clarifies what is meant, but the > reader is left stumped at the end of 2.2. I could add an example. RS 3.1415 RS vs RS 3.14159 LF RS -- the latter cannot have been truncated, the former may or may not have been (perhaps only the LF got truncated, perhaps many digits of pi got truncated). > =E2=80=94 2.4 s/terminates/indicates/ (the RS does not terminate the o= ld > JSON-text, but starts a new one; it is not consumed by the error > detection). OK. > =E2=80=94 2.5 =E2=80=9CLF instead of RS=E2=80=9D is confusing =E2=80=94= I don=E2=80=99t know of a format > that consistently uses a double LF between JSON-texts. Nothing about double-LF should have been implied. > =E2=80=94 s/are not be/are not/ and a few more places where a fine comb= might > help. OK. Thanks, Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Sep 18 12:13:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E571A03F1 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SbEqdeyUKN74 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f175.google.com (mail-vc0-f175.google.com [209.85.220.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06C2D1A03B5 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id hq11so1129031vcb.20 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:13:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Cy/nfl0AMcUQ4ewbhSNmD3X3xKBHT+GOxxF6qtl2DVw=; b=SCGotGPG0rD8JPf/MT4hDyLnTe/n1pxb6yrNsovbOFa9mPtY+N00kf9W5XWsVDzn2S 6YWouvX3eDqA4/ErdSmIErAirfxZVEoGTNyr5VwwlJzJxpuPFt+GtxWqWYux1FsaFyCL UOwlpNUokEXxuSd8w1x5w4/M2Vd6umlPJCXno3iPx+UIL6UL2s3Wz7uSQnqsiv6N0VxJ wD8W642BouEZ6E1XlBGY3pSo1fYgBXA9a9hyh70vzK7jYm2DwsgSkBQbFVCxxzSvE7hv pM3q7Orco5A/YLgkr7XPehVZqmW/MJGsBEbj/OIAEL81U8i1sjcDuA9/STImch/S2l3G tKfw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmWXNFZc2TfxxPNdn0REOJYJK6UirraLqoth4y65ye7wZw4Sak4WgQtT8RbHODKJMD1azys X-Received: by 10.220.99.71 with SMTP id t7mr759888vcn.8.1411067593973; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:13:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.214.4 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <20140918185838.GA4071@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <20140918185838.GA4071@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:12:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160c7d2b1763105035bc63c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/p2k6mBGA6W2qSuY26FdY6o8sDPk Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:13:17 -0000 --089e0160c7d2b1763105035bc63c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > > > > In fact I=E2=80=99ve never seen one. The paragraph is shorter, simpler,= and > > stronger without it. > > Such things exist for XML... You pointed out that this format could be > used with XML as well, and there that sentence would definitely be > appropriate. > =E2=80=8BXML is a red herring, and in the current draft it says =E2=80=9CTr= aditionally the way to do this=E2=80=9D which I think is actively misleading. =E2=80=9CTra= dition=E2=80=9D implies an accepted body of practice, which there isn=E2=80=99t. You could say som= ething like =E2=80=9CHypothetically if good streaming software were widely availab= le it could be used to do this=E2=80=9D. And that is *really* weak-ass.=E2=80=8B > > (I do want to write a streaming parser for jq, but the idea is that > subsets of a streaming parser's output would be reduced by jq programs > into proper values. That would reduce jq's need for this format, but > it's non-trivial, and the format would remain useful.) > > > s/JSON-text/JSON text/g The term as defined in 7159 has no hyphen > > Ah. > > > Lose this sentence: =E2=80=9CThe rule for encoders, on the other hand, = assumes > that > > sequence elements are not truncated.=E2=80=9D > > OK. > > > =E2=80=9Csee ISO 646-1991=E2=80=9D Huh? Why not just do a proper refere= nce to the current > > Unicode standard like 7159 does? > > For the parsing rules ASCII is sufficient, though even that is not a > requirement. We picked RS because its designation in ASCII was > conceptually convenient, but we don't need to say it came from there. > > I used ISO 646-1991 only because there's no bibxml for RFC 20(!). > > I'd be happy to downgrade this to an informational reference. > > > I don=E2=80=99t think section 2.5 adds any value, but I=E2=80=99ve said= this before and > > it=E2=80=99s still there, so I might be in the rough here. > > But does it do any harm (maybe!)? What if I change that section's title > to "Historical note"? > > It could cause harm if implementors get pressured into supporting the > old format in their parsers. I think this unlikely to be a problem > though. > > I do think this section adds value because there exist apps that use > that format, and while encoders of this format may not produce the old > one, parsers might get a lot of mileage out of handling the old one too. > > Nico > -- > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e0160c7d2b1763105035bc63c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On = Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
>
> In fact I=E2=80=99ve never seen one. The paragraph is shorter, simpler= , and
> stronger without it.

Such things exist for XML...=C2=A0 You pointed out that this format = could be
used with XML as well, and there that sentence would definitely be
appropriate.


(I do want to write a streaming parser for jq, but the idea is that
subsets of a streaming parser's output would be reduced by jq programs<= br> into proper values.=C2=A0 That would reduce jq's need for this format, = but
it's non-trivial, and the format would remain useful.)

> s/JSON-text/JSON text/g=C2=A0 The term as defined in 7159 has no hyphe= n

Ah.

> Lose this sentence: =E2=80=9CThe rule for encoders, on the other hand,= assumes that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sequence elements are not truncated.=E2=80=9D

OK.

> =E2=80=9Csee ISO 646-1991=E2=80=9D Huh? Why not just do a proper refer= ence to the current
> Unicode standard like 7159 does?

For the parsing rules ASCII is sufficient, though even that is not a=
requirement.=C2=A0 We picked RS because its designation in ASCII was
conceptually convenient, but we don't need to say it came from there.
I used ISO 646-1991 only because there's no bibxml for RFC 20(!).

I'd be happy to downgrade this to an informational reference.

> I don=E2=80=99t think section 2.5 adds any value, but I=E2=80=99ve sai= d this before and
> it=E2=80=99s still there, so I might be in the rough here.

But does it do any harm (maybe!)?=C2=A0 What if I change that sectio= n's title
to "Historical note"?

It could cause harm if implementors get pressured into supporting the
old format in their parsers.=C2=A0 I think this unlikely to be a problem though.

I do think this section adds value because there exist apps that use
that format, and while encoders of this format may not produce the old
one, parsers might get a lot of mileage out of handling the old one too.
Nico
--



--
--089e0160c7d2b1763105035bc63c-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 12:28:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C304F1A886E for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hh5zThrqtTR0 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a25.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CAD1A8869 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a25.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a25.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F26678083; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=r8dvHonyQDzkD4WlwRAjRX2/ZXc=; b=zApNn0XKts2 sOpS0dalt51U0EF665nSRvXHu30R7SPVW2HLxv3x/cmSY7/wBEfZfNNOA9+86tFc WdiVED10D1MyLRu1AD7FZ8A4I2o6OyFSf9WDDwTF/XPVVuQKn8YIIoepd+HtjD7q +av9IWPx0+MKpGJUUmZ7hl3sRQrTvfrg= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a25.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D1A0A678075; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:28:20 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140918192818.GC4071@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <20140918185838.GA4071@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0Glf90cFySzldFBemNZeMvsBERY Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:28:23 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:12:53PM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Nico Williams > wrote: > > Such things exist for XML... You pointed out that this format could = be > > used with XML as well, and there that sentence would definitely be > > appropriate. ISTR someone claiming to have a streaming parser when RFC7159 was an Internet-Draft. (The context was object name dups.) > XML is a red herring, and in the current draft it says =E2=80=9CTraditi= onally > the way to do this=E2=80=9D which I think is actively misleading. > =E2=80=9CTradition=E2=80=9D implies an accepted body of practice, which= there > isn=E2=80=99t. You could say something like =E2=80=9CHypothetically if= good > streaming software were widely available it could be used to do > this=E2=80=9D. And that is *really* weak-ass. "Hypothetically" works for me, as does "theoretically". I don't think that's too weak: the fact that these are difficult-to-use or non-existent is one of the main motivators for this format. It's true that the motivation can remain without reference to how one would handle large, indeterminate-sized data sets with pure JSON. I don't oppose removing this, but what harm results from it? Is it too distracting? (It distracted you, of course.) Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Sep 18 12:30:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D714F1A8866 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:30:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RYOUE-b5J4rn for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2022E1A8855 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C0B5405B; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:30:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=X6zOYqRgOY9DWPiFcv7INgw9uMY=; b=SepdVGVQgne SE1w7hKpWgFDEiB04/1oSowQa2aXsqXHUNBpi8SeRkFwM/emvbp0sIf0M6W0Y6iq HwIkud6/PAKDUXAesG57Mm2gtI4AwKh8X/QsM/2CkWBx5fJVcgazjLuXlxG8jmP0 lrjK2gjngGfV/QWF0VJgIVyahoP0B8gw= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A46F254055; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:30:17 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140918193015.GD4071@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/4n1Nl-_jpJFA1taayLzCIhRAQuk Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:30:19 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 06:22:03PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote= : > On 9/18/14, 5:50 PM, "Carsten Bormann" wrote: >=20 > >=E2=80=94 The reference to ISO/IEC 646:1991 should probably be replace= d by a=20 > >reference to RFC 20. > > There is little reason to reference a somewhat hard to obtain (CHF 8= 8!)=20 > >external document when we have an RFC about the same subject. >=20 > Agree. I hadn't noticed that bibxml exists for RFC.0020. I'll switch to RFC 20. > >=E2=80=94 "disambiguate JSON-texts consisting of numbers at the top-le= vel.=E2=80=9D is=20 > >not clear about what is being achieved. There is no ambiguity about=20 > >numbers in JSON. 2.3 then clarifies what is meant, but the reader is=20 > >left stumped at the end of 2.2. >=20 > Agree. I provided some potential text in my other message. Thanks, I'll take a look. I'll also add an example as in my reply to Carsten. > >=E2=80=94 2.5 =E2=80=9CLF instead of RS=E2=80=9D is confusing =E2=80=94= I don=E2=80=99t know of a format that=20 > >consistently uses a double LF between JSON-texts. >=20 > Removing section 2.5 would be a net win, I think. Alternately, we coul= d=20 > state that parsers might also parse other formats without ceasing to be= =20 > JSON-sequence parsers - if we thought that was an interesting distincti= on=20 > to make. I'm not clear that it's interesting yet, however. Fair enough, I think I'll just remove it then. > >=E2=80=94 s/are not be/are not/ and a few more places where a fine com= b might=20 > >help. >=20 > I love when we get to the point on a doc where typos are the things tha= t=20 > we're finding! Agreed! Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Sep 18 12:32:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7824D1A8855 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BH0edc7o5dc for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a31.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CCD1A0AE0 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a31.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a31.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B2E20202C; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=7lbBxwA17mYxV8 rjPgSUKb1WiXw=; b=uXXuBMbLVg6f4wUDpYadE0q5ZWvPT3hbjeYmgkHPGergDA As7BeLAJ9i07xULxeZg0lsoUk1yut4VdCpH4TuoM4Lj4wmbZK/H2VzPiBnsIg6F1 3G1/zqbeE16pZ1THLYZs28Pb639cwazhmc7k4Vo2Qk1UJZ4rnMFJQYLR/sv0g= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a31.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 234AD202022; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:32:11 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140918193209.GE4071@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LayFL28XZ2JfdmMZ2yXOdMxU18M Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:32:13 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 06:18:22PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > Overall, I'm very happy with the current draft. I think it solves the > problem that we set out to solve, and I think it may actually be useful in > practice (which is a big step up from where I started on this topic). I > have a few relatively minor comments: Thanks! > Section 2.2: > > "In prose: any number of JSON texts, each preceded and followed by one > or more ASCII RS characters and each followed by a line feed (LF)." > > This is left over from a previous version. Proposed text: > > "In prose: any number of JSON texts, each preceded by an record separator > character (RS) and each followed by a line feed character (LF)." Whoops, thanks. > I agree with Carsten that "disambiguate" isn't a good enough word choice. > Proposed text: > > > "Following each JSON-text in the sequence with an LF allows detection of > truncated JSON-texts consisting of a number at the top-level." I'll take this. > Section 2.3: > > "Parsers MUST drop JSON-text sequence elements that may have been > truncated (see previous sentence), but MAY report such texts (including, > optionally, the parsed text and/or the original octet string)." > > I don't see how to implement this combination of MUST and MAY (I think due > to the ambiguity of "drop", but I think I see what you're getting at. > Proposed text: > > "Parsers MUST NOT report JSON-text sequence elements consisting of > top-level numbers that may have been truncated in the same way they would > a complete JSON-text. Parsers MAY report such texts as errors (including, > optionally, the parsed text and/or the original octet string). I'll take this. > > Section 5, is "shephered" correct, here? There's a missing 'd'. Nico -- From nobody Thu Sep 18 14:23:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43FC1A6F5B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mR5SfJ3SGT5q for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CDA11A6EEC for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8ILNbQv022082; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:23:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p548902C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.2.198]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F24EA9C8; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:23:35 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20140918191005.GB4071@localhost> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:23:33 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 432768213.135518-3595f043e3dcad44b29aae8834794fd9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <20140918191005.GB4071@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LYKZ_JZDaA_6vxbWzWUBvx5nTuQ Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:23:45 -0000 >=20 >> =97 RFC 2119 errata. >=20 > Hmm? http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D2119&eid=3D499 (Sorry, I thought I could address frequent RFC writers like you with = that shorter reference.) >> =97 the first ABNF needs to be clearly called out as about the = sequence >> of bytes, while the second ABNF is about a sequence of characters. >=20 > The text in section 2.1 says "octets" and "octet string" in several > places. Is that not enough? No. And the text in the intro to 2 says the first ABNF is about bytes = vs. the second being about not being truncated (what?). You need to put in a 5-inch warning sign, in blinking red, because this = is really highly misleading usage of ABNF without that warning sign. = (It is also now common behavior that people will just jump to the meat, = ignoring the verbiage around. So every piece of notation or example = needs to be self-describing.) (Insert ceterum censeo about turgid wooden horse-and-buggy grandiloquent = term =93octet=94 here.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 18 14:38:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C671A88A9 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qVaSsZYshSOJ for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502A51A6F60 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C5D20047B85; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:38:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=HpIlIwXgnHu6+jjts3klSYj0Yvs=; b=wm7/ytl6mDA TcS5nAtXob5ZRjX/mDRRu5nfIAEfpFY5m7a49YgQbFylUUeBT9obtsc6IIXgPDoF Uy6TOCH0YFpyd+8SCkjDtI8MWypcgT7g2i0yX0xmLcMuXZusYi7Hm5fjQIaEijDF 2qz3qbVaS91YWIwuGvUL2YROnCTAjXa4= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D3E7120047B83; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:38:02 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140918213800.GA4428@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <20140918191005.GB4071@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/JVHEgT0b8_Vk3iyfV-Z0jWgZsUk Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:38:10 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:23:33PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >=20 > >> =E2=80=94 RFC 2119 errata. > >=20 > > Hmm? >=20 > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D2119&eid=3D499 >=20 > (Sorry, I thought I could address frequent RFC writers like you with > that shorter reference.) No, I'd got it, it's just I had never expected an arratum for RFC2119! I was incredulous (before checking). Since I don't use the one missing term, I'm inclined to leave it as-is (the RFC-Editor can always make this change if they really want to). > >> =E2=80=94 the first ABNF needs to be clearly called out as about the= sequence > >> of bytes, while the second ABNF is about a sequence of characters. > >=20 > > The text in section 2.1 says "octets" and "octet string" in several > > places. Is that not enough? >=20 > No. And the text in the intro to 2 says the first ABNF is about bytes > vs. the second being about not being truncated (what?). OLD: [...]. The rule for encoders, on the other hand, assumes that sequence elements are not truncated. NEW: [...]. The rule for encoders, on the other hand, assumes well-formed JSON-texts. > You need to put in a 5-inch warning sign, in blinking red, because > this is really highly misleading usage of ABNF without that warning > sign. (It is also now common behavior that people will just jump to > the meat, ignoring the verbiage around. So every piece of notation or > example needs to be self-describing.) RFC5234 says: Rules resolve into a string of terminal values, sometimes called characters. In ABNF, a character is merely a non-negative integer. In certain contexts, a specific mapping (encoding) of values into a character set (such as ASCII) will be specified. There's nothing misleading. The word "octet" appears eight times in section 2.1, one of those in the figure with the ABNF. How much more blinking red can I make it than that?! :) > (Insert ceterum censeo about turgid wooden horse-and-buggy > grandiloquent term =E2=80=9Coctet=E2=80=9D here.) I picked it for a reason: it goes well with our habit of using OCTET STRING in ASN.1-based protocols. Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Sep 18 17:32:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C9C1A884A for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsYnHCzUE3Zq for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB451A0113 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:32:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,550,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="226170085" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcbvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.204]) by ipoavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 19 Sep 2014 10:22:03 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7565"; a="250741065" Received: from wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) by ipcbvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 19 Sep 2014 10:32:07 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) with mapi; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:32:03 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: IETF JSON WG Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:32:02 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences Thread-Index: Ac/TZEFles6AdAAbTw+UFw5cT/fQaQAMWMCQ Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/sI_HibXQI0SgpXvwbkKVMgXhPJ0 Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 00:32:11 -0000 draft-ietf-json-text-sequences-07 is not useful for its primary purpose. In= serting the byte 0x1E means the format is no longer "text" in the usual sen= se, which ruins much of the rationale for using JSON in the first place. No= t allowing whitespace in an empty sequence makes the format very brittle (t= oo easy to create an invalid value when using typical tools such as web tem= plating languages). Having two different ABNF rules with exactly the same name = is bad. Particularly when the terminal values of the first are integers fro= m 0 to 255 (bytes), and the terminal values for the seconds are integers fr= om 0 to 0x10FFFF (Unicode scalars). 1st preference: Drop RS. 2nd preference: Drop the byte-based ABNF for parsing. Only define a text-ba= sed ABNF for valid JSON text sequences. Use prose to mention that even if a= n item in a sequence is not valid JSON (eg a write was truncated) a parser = can (and SHOULD) recover subsequent valid items from the sequence. 3rd preference: Use different names for the byte-based and Unicode-based AB= NF rules, eg , . Special-casing top-level numeric values is awkward. It means you cannot sim= ply split on RS, then parse items as JSON. Instead, you have to: split on R= S; note if an item ends with a LF byte; parse item as JSON; if item is a nu= mber and there was no LF throw an error. I doubt most implementations will = bother with the extra steps, particularly as it only matters in a niche sce= nario where an app half-cares about integrity: it cares about corrupted num= bers but doesn't care about lost items. Denoting end of sequence "by convention" sounds like bad security advice. A= "convention" sounds like a heuristic that an attacker can exploit. Using t= he Content-Length HTTP header is a good example of how the end can be denot= ed externally from the format, but I wouldn't classify it as a "convention"= . A convention might be writing the JSON value null or {} as the last item. The "interoperability note" is really a warning to expect non-interoperabil= ity. Expect some people to get used to more lenient tools, so their data wi= ll fail when later used with tools the implement this spec. The acknowledgements credit me with "ABNF for resynchronization" but that n= o longer exists. The abstract has too little content. How about adding a sentence so it beco= mes: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type, "application/json-seq". A JSON text sequence consists of any number of JSON values, each prefixed by a Record Separator (U+001E) and ending with a newline character (U+000A). -- James Manger -----Original Message----- From: json [mailto:json-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman Sent: Friday, 19 September 2014 3:16 AM To: IETF JSON WG Subject: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences Greetings again. The second WG Last Call turned up some interesting clarifi= cations that might make the document more attractive to some reviewers. Thi= s WG Last Call is to determine this. Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new docume= nt could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described in the = document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about whether or n= ot you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about the current doc= ument. The current document: URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-se= quence-07.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-seque= nce/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-07 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-seq= uence-07 --Paul Hoffman _______________________________________________ json mailing list json@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json From nobody Thu Sep 18 19:40:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39B61A6FAA for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3AuGcTi3UkpQ for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26C1A1A6FC0 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XUo7m-0002Gg-61; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:40:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:40:42 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140919024042.GH32623@mercury.ccil.org> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ca5S8mf5oHLBuIiWEyoSRbhCYhg Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 02:40:47 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > “see ISO 646-1991” Huh? Why not just do a proper reference to the current > Unicode standard like 7159 does? Unicode and ISO 10646 don't actually standardize the C0 and C1 control characters beyond TAB, CR, and LF; it defers to other character set standards for them. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Fundamental thinking is ha-ard. Let's go ideology-shopping. --Philosopher Barbie From nobody Thu Sep 18 22:49:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0721A8735 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:49:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3p2mYxOesu4H for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.15.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A39F1A7002 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.100.219]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MejjU-1XfoLC0UrA-00OKlF for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:48:58 +0200 Message-ID: <541BC3C9.7070509@drees.name> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:48:57 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:XcpXPZr2tMGHbu+v4zn1HxNL5hXfldI+cOnYvvCwmk2ZXk21icn VyzefbKreiETtVIcmecjNHNRgO+kgsLI4ngmqmEhQMeiu6DZy+Q/Z2u2uO4yrXM2+eeSE9P ax/Y4y6uD9pB4sCLnpADwOk+z3KUBwdV3zLCtXeRRUCv6zZjEm4o8mVXDhB4Kce7v0yyGtd nkzZvBaOuT0f63NWRZDdA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/NtSS3loNkMiwB6mfOx_qEf4ytRs Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 05:49:01 -0000 Am 19.09.14 02:32, schrieb Manger, James: > draft-ietf-json-text-sequences-07 is not useful for its primary purpose. Inserting the byte 0x1E means the format is no longer "text" in the usual sense, which ruins much of the rationale for using JSON in the first place. Not allowing whitespace in an empty sequence makes the format very brittle (too easy to create an invalid value when using typical tools such as web templating languages). > > > Having two different ABNF rules with exactly the same name is bad. Particularly when the terminal values of the first are integers from 0 to 255 (bytes), and the terminal values for the seconds are integers from 0 to 0x10FFFF (Unicode scalars). > > 1st preference: Drop RS. > > 2nd preference: Drop the byte-based ABNF for parsing. Only define a text-based ABNF for valid JSON text sequences. Use prose to mention that even if an item in a sequence is not valid JSON (eg a write was truncated) a parser can (and SHOULD) recover subsequent valid items from the sequence. > > 3rd preference: Use different names for the byte-based and Unicode-based ABNF rules, eg , . > > > Special-casing top-level numeric values is awkward. It means you cannot simply split on RS, then parse items as JSON. Instead, you have to: split on RS; note if an item ends with a LF byte; parse item as JSON; if item is a number and there was no LF throw an error. I doubt most implementations will bother with the extra steps, particularly as it only matters in a niche scenario where an app half-cares about integrity: it cares about corrupted numbers but doesn't care about lost items. > > > Denoting end of sequence "by convention" sounds like bad security advice. A "convention" sounds like a heuristic that an attacker can exploit. Using the Content-Length HTTP header is a good example of how the end can be denoted externally from the format, but I wouldn't classify it as a "convention". A convention might be writing the JSON value null or {} as the last item. > > > The "interoperability note" is really a warning to expect non-interoperability. Expect some people to get used to more lenient tools, so their data will fail when later used with tools the implement this spec. > > > The acknowledgements credit me with "ABNF for resynchronization" but that no longer exists. > > > The abstract has too little content. How about adding a sentence so it becomes: > > This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated > media type, "application/json-seq". A JSON text sequence consists of > any number of JSON values, each prefixed by a Record Separator (U+001E) > and ending with a newline character (U+000A). > +1 from my side on the above as I am also asking myself, if the introduction of RS really leaves the approach useful as text data transport container standardization. /Stefan (in a rush, sorry) From nobody Fri Sep 19 09:52:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376641A0338 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 09:52:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) 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IHdhbnRlZCBpdC4gIEkgDQpkb24ndCB0aGluayB0aGUgY3VycmVudCB0ZXh0IGhhcm1zIGFueXRo aW5nLg0KDQo+VGhlICJpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5IG5vdGUiIGlzIHJlYWxseSBhIHdhcm5pbmcg dG8gZXhwZWN0IA0KPm5vbi1pbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LiBFeHBlY3Qgc29tZSBwZW9wbGUgdG8g Z2V0IHVzZWQgdG8gbW9yZSBsZW5pZW50IA0KPnRvb2xzLCBzbyB0aGVpciBkYXRhIHdpbGwgZmFp bCB3aGVuIGxhdGVyIHVzZWQgd2l0aCB0b29scyB0aGUgaW1wbGVtZW50IA0KPnRoaXMgc3BlYy4N Cg0KV2UgY291bGQgbG9zZSB0aGlzIGVudGlyZSBzZWN0aW9uIGFzIGZhciBhcyBJJ20gY29uY2Vy bmVkLg0KDQo+VGhlIGFja25vd2xlZGdlbWVudHMgY3JlZGl0IG1lIHdpdGggIkFCTkYgZm9yIHJl c3luY2hyb25pemF0aW9uIiBidXQgdGhhdCANCj5ubyBsb25nZXIgZXhpc3RzLg0KPg0KPg0KPlRo ZSBhYnN0cmFjdCBoYXMgdG9vIGxpdHRsZSBjb250ZW50LiBIb3cgYWJvdXQgYWRkaW5nIGEgc2Vu dGVuY2Ugc28gaXQgDQo+YmVjb21lczoNCj4NCj4gIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIHRo ZSBKU09OIHRleHQgc2VxdWVuY2UgZm9ybWF0IGFuZCBhc3NvY2lhdGVkDQo+ICBtZWRpYSB0eXBl LCAiYXBwbGljYXRpb24vanNvbi1zZXEiLiBBIEpTT04gdGV4dCBzZXF1ZW5jZSBjb25zaXN0cyBv Zg0KPiAgYW55IG51bWJlciBvZiBKU09OIHZhbHVlcywgZWFjaCBwcmVmaXhlZCBieSBhIFJlY29y ZCBTZXBhcmF0b3IgKFUrMDAxRSkNCj4gIGFuZCBlbmRpbmcgd2l0aCBhIG5ld2xpbmUgY2hhcmFj dGVyIChVKzAwMEEpLg0KDQpJIGxpa2UgaXQuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoN Cg== From nobody Fri Sep 19 11:18:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45C61A069E for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FBP1OwrLQszc for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676B21A064D for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2138394075; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=dy13jSTc54OrWg V9xdf3OTfL54Q=; b=aZWt9xRLyVlc2nNWQOnICHKImWh97dHFlKi61FLor9beZr BSX5KKCZxcZ9XS3ib+TgL5GwHkVQZdMkXo2WD55p9DgeqS+Et6rj2ga+BYv4xw0B kHbBvKM3Yow78hKqd91Mlpkc8h/ZhxMENW2DpjIratAt0+Km/0h4E/MsQI8X4= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id ABFDB9405E; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:18:34 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Message-ID: <20140919181832.GB4428@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/aZgaFaBi_mRxFeFSAjpYkr8osa8 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 18:18:38 -0000 On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:32:02AM +1000, Manger, James wrote: > draft-ietf-json-text-sequences-07 is not useful for its primary > purpose. Inserting the byte 0x1E means the format is no longer "text" > in the usual sense, which ruins much of the rationale for using JSON > in the first place. Not allowing whitespace in an empty sequence makes > the format very brittle (too easy to create an invalid value when > using typical tools such as web templating languages). I've tried using RS with various tools that I use every day, and I had no problems. Converting between this format and that which jq supports today is trivial: remove the RS bytes (assuming no truncated texts). The primary value in using RS is: - no need to remove internal LFs to make sequence parsing and recovery easy with any off-the-shelf JSON parser Note that the format I originally proposed was difficult to implement with a non-incremental JSON parser. (jq's parser is incremental but not streaming, by which I mean that it consumes more octets until a complete value falls out, and it does not discard octets that start a subsequent text.) Using RS and LF resolves all ambiguity issues and makes it trivial to use even those dumbest (no offense) JSON parsers that want a complete JSON text as input and nothing more. > 1st preference: Drop RS. That was my preference a while back too, as you know. I've come around to liking RS. > 2nd preference: Drop the byte-based ABNF for parsing. Only define a > text-based ABNF for valid JSON text sequences. Use prose to mention > that even if an item in a sequence is not valid JSON (eg a write was > truncated) a parser can (and SHOULD) recover subsequent valid items > from the sequence. That would be OK, but would that really improve things? Anyways, if the WG agrees... > 3rd preference: Use different names for the byte-based and > Unicode-based ABNF rules, eg , . OK. > Special-casing top-level numeric values is awkward. It means you > cannot simply split on RS, then parse items as JSON. Instead, you have > to: split on RS; note if an item ends with a LF byte; parse item as > JSON; if item is a number and there was no LF throw an error. I doubt > most implementations will bother with the extra steps, particularly as > it only matters in a niche scenario where an app half-cares about > integrity: it cares about corrupted numbers but doesn't care about > lost items. This only matters in cases where truncation of individual texts is possible. If no truncation is possible then removing RSes is enough to get you a pure stream of unambiguous JSON texts. > Denoting end of sequence "by convention" sounds like bad security > advice. A "convention" sounds like a heuristic that an attacker can > exploit. Using the Content-Length HTTP header is a good example of how > the end can be denoted externally from the format, but I wouldn't > classify it as a "convention". A convention might be writing the JSON > value null or {} as the last item. The security advice is to use a secure transport if one needs integrity protection (which one should). IMO this protocol should do nothing to denote EOF. Using a valid JSON text as EOF would be bad! If an end of sequence designator were needed I'd propose using NUL or FS (file separator). > The "interoperability note" is really a warning to expect > non-interoperability. Expect some people to get used to more lenient > tools, so their data will fail when later used with tools the > implement this spec. Nobody seems to like that section; it's headed for the chopping block. > The acknowledgements credit me with "ABNF for resynchronization" but > that no longer exists. Ah right, thanks for noting that. > The abstract has too little content. How about adding a sentence so it becomes: > > This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated > media type, "application/json-seq". A JSON text sequence consists of > any number of JSON values, each prefixed by a Record Separator (U+001E) > and ending with a newline character (U+000A). I like it. Thanks! Nico -- From nobody Fri Sep 19 11:21:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114741A064D for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:21:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cwA3jYe9DpuM for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793CB1A0645 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2892005D00B; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=ZiWFgYkfcuBedt qcKz6opx8sktg=; b=jaV44pHaS9jMEVDFMT+QH4q6dbuSf+7tYbzzaf2ASfXiG4 R4blUMhRZRgC5rQnKONMiNzo4qUOanJTF7cqP5SIhpV5OgTuJbRpKeoDUCVYCWpl VIhyHmbs4uGA8Mu4gl/6JlO053/DaXEenx9lzIWjYujHhvR7/hqOzC8bZjbrM= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0118B2005D009; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:21:35 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Stefan Drees Message-ID: <20140919182133.GC4428@localhost> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <541BC3C9.7070509@drees.name> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <541BC3C9.7070509@drees.name> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/08HKYJWumL4HdpDhYjJ0UHclAc8 Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 18:21:37 -0000 On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:48:57AM +0200, Stefan Drees wrote: > Am 19.09.14 02:32, schrieb Manger, James: > > [...] > > +1 from my side on the above as I am also asking myself, if the > introduction of RS really leaves the approach useful as text data > transport container standardization. Near as I can tell the RS doesn't hurt. What is most needed for a text-like format is LF, and we now have consensus (right?) for RS JSON-text LF, which gives us the LF we need to be line-oriented- tool-friendly, and the RS that we need to fully disambiguate all cases *and* be friendly to all even the least convenient JSON parsers. Nico -- From nobody Sun Sep 21 21:12:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50E01A1A19 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:12:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.498 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8lf47LhiSPRH for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcno.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcno.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.82.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2931A1A13 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,569,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="213695296" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcbni.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.216.204]) by ipocni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 Sep 2014 14:00:34 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7568"; a="247656829" Received: from wsmsg3755.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.196]) by ipcbni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 Sep 2014 14:12:12 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3755.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.196]) with mapi; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:12:12 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" , IETF JSON WG Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:12:10 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences Thread-Index: AQHP02RNj5HurcNpX0mPS4vnYN7aVJwH70sAgAC5IICAA9NTsA== Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9D3172E@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <1842CEA0-F08C-41B9-821F-2226108344D6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1842CEA0-F08C-41B9-821F-2226108344D6@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/HoGjJ9PhT28rG9as-FSJTZy79fo Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 04:12:18 -0000 Sm9lLA0KDQo+PmRyYWZ0LWlldGYtanNvbi10ZXh0LXNlcXVlbmNlcy0wNyBpcyBub3QgdXNlZnVs IGZvciBpdHMgcHJpbWFyeSBwdXJwb3NlLiANCj4+SW5zZXJ0aW5nIHRoZSBieXRlIDB4MUUgbWVh bnMgdGhlIGZvcm1hdCBpcyBubyBsb25nZXIgInRleHQiIGluIHRoZSANCj4+dXN1YWwgc2Vuc2Us 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cmUgbnVtYmVycyIgd291bGQgYmUgYW5vdGhlciBzcGVjaWFsIGNhc2UNCg0K4oCmDQoNCj4+VGhl ICJpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5IG5vdGUiIGlzIHJlYWxseSBhIHdhcm5pbmcgdG8gZXhwZWN0IA0K Pj5ub24taW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eS4gRXhwZWN0IHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlIHRvIGdldCB1c2VkIHRv IG1vcmUgbGVuaWVudCANCj4+dG9vbHMsIHNvIHRoZWlyIGRhdGEgd2lsbCBmYWlsIHdoZW4gbGF0 ZXIgdXNlZCB3aXRoIHRvb2xzIHRoZSBpbXBsZW1lbnQgDQo+PnRoaXMgc3BlYy4NCg0KPiBXZSBj b3VsZCBsb3NlIHRoaXMgZW50aXJlIHNlY3Rpb24gYXMgZmFyIGFzIEknbSBjb25jZXJuZWQuDQoN ClJlbW92aW5nIHRoZSB0ZXh0IGRvZXNuJ3QgcmVtb3ZlIHRoZSByaXNrIG9mIG5vbi1pbnRlcm9w ZXJhYmlsaXR5Lg0KDQotLQ0KSmFtZXMgTWFuZ2VyDQo= From nobody Sun Sep 21 21:48:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C24C1A1A1A for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.15 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k0Eou1wxSQGF for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.15.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AB3F1A1A18 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.109.165]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M7scS-1YIH0S1tnU-00vQWb; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 06:48:00 +0200 Message-ID: <541FA9FF.2080706@drees.name> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 06:47:59 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <541BC3C9.7070509@drees.name> <20140919182133.GC4428@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140919182133.GC4428@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:gZ2AV0R3Sup2gJf2I7fcQ8Efg/yXy6crlqJVy7fUm/M8CAiODYY ZkwOs5lWLWX5+9+AdfVMNGVkG0pllvs1VXIJl2Cp/05UddZXTJ3q59eA1EgJq/FZgbtQH7B 2OHduA7eQgUY/kxideVggRJL3tpCePrh5AsmeWL0MIyFPumQ4bbFxuKea1B9puLcFfeF07c BMV2RqecYddOclm5D8C5g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/hppQDFlWS7cr8EClrTRrgYIBNJk Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 04:48:07 -0000 On 2014-09-19 20:21 +02:00, Nico Williams wrote: > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:48:57AM +0200, Stefan Drees wrote: >> Am 19.09.14 02:32, schrieb Manger, James: >>> [...] >> >> +1 from my side on the above as I am also asking myself, if the >> introduction of RS really leaves the approach useful as text data >> transport container standardization. > > Near as I can tell the RS doesn't hurt. What is most needed for a > text-like format is LF, and we now have consensus (right?) for RS > JSON-text LF, which gives us the LF we need to be line-oriented- > tool-friendly, and the RS that we need to fully disambiguate all > cases *and* be friendly to all even the least convenient JSON parsers. > ... I *hope* we have at least consensus for keeping LF in eg. logs ;-) As consenting adults we and our tools talking with each other on our behalf may inject funny things in the info stream if it helps avoid misunderstanding. I remember the thrill I still sense when spotting a less-than character not being used as an operator but as a delimiter/start-of-token in some legacy data format ... Seriously, I do not fear RS (neither do tools like grep), *but* it makes very funny (non-)transforms on the commandline (results of cat or grep), being reduced to zero width apearance thus glueing visually together what should have been separated by the extra info (represented by RS) in the first place. *But* (horizontal) TAB characters also are similar in these distractions they (may) cause when one is just visually inspecting lines including them on a shell, but when in doubt there is often a dump utility or another unix tool within reach ... in python we even have a nanny ... and life is easy again, so: After some tinking about it, I am now +0 to the draft (including the RS) when we all continue chanting "us" as a group into this brave new world ... and hope remains, that everyone and her dog will now really inject RS into there JSON text sequences formerly only split by LFs. "Stefan" "Drees" PS: Note the RS in the signature ;-) $> $ xxd signature_json_text_sequence.json 0000000: 1e22 5374 6566 616e 220a 1e22 4472 6565 ."Stefan".."Dree 0000010: 7322 0a s". 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(xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com [173.37.183.86]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8MFEpBw014486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:14:51 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com ([173.37.183.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:14:50 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: "Manger, James" , IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences Thread-Index: AQHP02RNj5HurcNpX0mPS4vnYN7aVJwH70sAgAC5IICAA9NTsIAAvJsA Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:14:50 +0000 Message-ID: <0CE31411-E4DE-4EF0-B9EF-D1E4E5DA7384@cisco.com> References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9C4B580@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <1842CEA0-F08C-41B9-821F-2226108344D6@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9D3172E@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C9D3172E@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.21.82.13] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <13C80C73A2FF7843945B04B63ADD007E@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/aY-4zOOB1qcEEcxH6hTPqAtmPgY Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:14:58 -0000 T24gOS8yMi8xNCwgNDoxMiBBTSwgIk1hbmdlciwgSmFtZXMiIDxKYW1lcy5ILk1hbmdlckB0ZWFt LnRlbHN0cmEuY29tPiANCndyb3RlOg0KDQo+QSBzb2Z0d2FyZSBsaWJyYXJ5IGNhbiBoYW5kbGUg 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BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1034.003; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:05:27 +0000 From: Larry Masinter To: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann Thread-Topic: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences Thread-Index: AQHP02Rhxr8Rsd+x/kqy5Dt91Ekg6ZwHK0IAgAAWRoCABdabcA== Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <02676FB4-12ED-4057-AFBA-DF003514B503@vpnc.org> <20140918191005.GB4071@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140918191005.GB4071@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [2601:9:8380:992:fcb9:bd6a:c985:b288] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BL2PR02MB307; x-forefront-prvs: 034215E98F x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(199003)(189002)(558084003)(106116001)(107046002)(101416001)(64706001)(90102001)(92566001)(230783001)(105586002)(21056001)(76176999)(54356999)(97736003)(76482002)(99286002)(120916001)(95666004)(86362001)(106356001)(4396001)(20776003)(15975445006)(15202345003)(108616004)(79102003)(50986999)(80022003)(81342003)(74662003)(83322001)(74502003)(46102003)(99396002)(74316001)(31966008)(77982003)(81542003)(2656002)(83072002)(85852003)(76576001)(33646002)(87936001)(19580395003)(93376004)(85306004)(24736002)(15302535012); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BL2PR02MB307; H:BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/IObYKnbvOxW8kYfcMbTWqS8k-38 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Third WG Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:05:53 -0000 Rm9yIG1lLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIGhlbHBlZCB0byBwb2ludCBvdXQgdGhhdCBSUyA9IGNvbnRy b2wtXg0KDQpJIGNhbiB0eXBlIG9uZSBpbnRvIGVtYWNzIHVzaW5nIGNvbnRyb2wtUSBjb250cm9s LXNoaWZ0LTYgKGF0IGxlYXN0IG9uIGEgVVMga2V5Ym9hcmQpLg0KDQpMYXJyeQ0KLS0NCmh0dHA6 Ly9sYXJyeS5tYXNpbnRlci5uZXQNCg== From nobody Tue Sep 23 10:16:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E3B1A87DB for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:16:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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23 Sep 2014 17:15:12 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140829 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1CAC7F5C11D03943A76860EA13A82CA9@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/mM-5xuWow5P-TztFOBsMgGCFrfM Subject: [Json] JSON text sequences in node X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 17:16:50 -0000 VG8gcHJvdmUgdG8gbXlzZWxmIHRoYXQgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZHJhZnQgbWFrZXMgc2Vuc2UsIGRv ZXNuJ3QgaGF2ZSBhbnkgDQpzcGVjaWFsIGNhc2luZywgYW5kIHRoYXQgSSBoYWRuJ3QgbWlzc2Vk IGFueXRoaW5nLCBJIHdoaXBwZWQgdXAgYSBxdWljayANCm5vZGVqcy9jb2ZmZWVzY3JpcHQgaW1w bGVtZW50YXRpb24uDQoNClRoZSBwYXJzZXIgd2FzIHRyaXZpYWw6DQoNCiAgICBAX3N0cmVhbSA9 IG5ldyBEZWxpbWl0U3RyZWFtKCdceDFlJykNCiAgICAgIC5vbiAnZGF0YScsIChkKSAtPg0KICAg ICAgICAjIGlmIHRoZSBlbnRyeSBkb2Vzbid0IGVuZCB3aXRoIFxuLCBpdCBnb3QgdHJ1bmNhdGVk DQogICAgICAgIGlmIGRbZC5sZW5ndGggLSAxXSAhPSAweDBhDQogICAgICAgICAgdGhhdC5lbWl0 ICd0cnVuY2F0ZWQnLCBkDQogICAgICAgIGVsc2UNCiAgICAgICAgICB0cnkNCiAgICAgICAgICAg IGogPSBKU09OLnBhcnNlIGQNCiAgICAgICAgICAgIHRoYXQuZW1pdCAnanNvbicsIGoNCiAgICAg ICAgICAgIHRoYXQucHVzaCBqDQogICAgICAgICAgY2F0Y2ggZXJyb3INCiAgICAgICAgICAgIHRo YXQuZW1pdCAnaW52YWxpZCcsIGQNCg0KDQpUaGUgZ2VuZXJhdG9yIGlzbid0IGludGVyZXN0aW5n IGVub3VnaCB0byB0YWxrIGFib3V0LiAgVGhlcmUncyB0ZXN0cywgDQpkb2NzLCBjb3ZlcmFnZSBt ZXRyaWNzIGFuZCB3aGF0bm90IGZvciBzb21lIHJlYXNvbi4NCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29t L2hpbGRqai9qc29uLXRleHQtc2VxdWVuY2UNCg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0K DQo= From nobody Tue Sep 23 11:07:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785021A87E1 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:06:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d6YB5QJVl3Hg for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35E911A87DB for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f182.google.com with SMTP id hn15so5061452igb.3 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VNY9MHu5uRcRFEHsSCyCy9tWBJKp4TUieNuUtPTxY0s=; b=KS1PwVlxT2OwTDkNjFqN06soVZ7FC/pWPzi2LC8+nX122j6tie19OCYWen0urljXkf 9XdP7Kb+w7snVIe8CngA/t/4de/7RocFsbkWhQJdTsvbphG/n2jxQoHCTgwZLKvuPPvJ nHSqLgAWbX4sou08XTwgSRruYmUdo0ygRN+NIkwFfsdrcn9IBzvDfNOk7wEyKuQKb6Vx v5Ztm2518sOjlXuJ0rE63ROCv9qt+DUbaWmJKLpFGKuXCCTBK28UiUcDfC1fnyzxw5ck NpccfJUBGoopMBXgmU1CF90PJQzDA51aZRVZIkyvU7etqGLDqsRQp6NM/AVY7ISuxteq tGlA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.73.163 with SMTP id m3mr24344646igv.28.1411495587500; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.135.152 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 12:06:27 -0600 Message-ID: From: Sean Gillies To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0116105a1859ae0503bf6d53 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/2nkXzDmeDO2OsYL0Xc5ALQ0sntg Subject: [Json] (Geo)JSON text sequences in Python X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 18:06:57 -0000 --089e0116105a1859ae0503bf6d53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I'm developing Python software for working with the GeoJSON (as seen on GitHub: https://help.github.com/articles/mapping-geojson-files-on-github) and GeoJSON text sequences seem like a nice solution to some of the problems of dealing with many MB feature collection objects that result from the conversion of traditional spatial data formats. I'm finding no problems with handling RS separated text sequences. Below is the generator of Python objects parsed from a text sequence I'm using in https://github.com/Toblerity/Fiona. if first_line.startswith(u'\x1e'): def feature_gen(): buffer = first_line.strip(u'\x1e') for line in stdin: if line.startswith(u'\x1e'): if buffer: yield json.loads(buffer) buffer = line.strip(u'\x1e') else: buffer += line else: yield json.loads(buffer) Making text sequences with printf to test my command line programs is not a problem at all: result = subprocess.check_output( "printf '\x1e%s\n\x1e%s' | fio collect" % ( json.dumps(feature, indent=2), json.dumps(feature, indent=2)), shell=True) Thanks for the hard work, everybody. JSON Text Sequence is definitely useful for spatial data interchange and processing. -- Sean Gillies --089e0116105a1859ae0503bf6d53 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+SSYjMzk7bSBkZXZlbG9waW5nIFB5dGhvbiBzb2Z0d2FyZSBmb3Igd29y a2luZyB3aXRoIHRoZSBHZW9KU09OIChhcyBzZWVuIG9uIEdpdEh1YjogPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6 Ly9oZWxwLmdpdGh1Yi5jb20vYXJ0aWNsZXMvbWFwcGluZy1nZW9qc29uLWZpbGVzLW9uLWdpdGh1 YiI+aHR0cHM6Ly9oZWxwLmdpdGh1Yi5jb20vYXJ0aWNsZXMvbWFwcGluZy1nZW9qc29uLWZpbGVz LW9uLWdpdGh1YjwvYT4pIGFuZCBHZW9KU09OIHRleHQgc2VxdWVuY2VzIHNlZW0gbGlrZSBhIG5p Y2Ugc29sdXRpb24gdG8gc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbXMgb2YgZGVhbGluZyB3aXRoIG1hbnkg TUIgZmVhdHVyZSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9iamVjdHMgdGhhdCByZXN1bHQgZnJvbSB0aGUgY29udmVy c2lvbiBvZiB0cmFkaXRpb25hbCBzcGF0aWFsIGRhdGEgZm9ybWF0cy4gSSYjMzk7bSBmaW5kaW5n IG5vIHByb2JsZW1zIHdpdGggaGFuZGxpbmcgUlMgc2VwYXJhdGVkIHRleHQgc2VxdWVuY2VzLjxi cj48ZGl2Pjxicj5CZWxvdyBpcyB0aGUgZ2VuZXJhdG9yIG9mIFB5dGhvbiBvYmplY3RzIHBhcnNl ZCBmcm9tIGEgdGV4dCBzZXF1ZW5jZSBJJiMzOTttIHVzaW5nIGluIDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8v Z2l0aHViLmNvbS9Ub2JsZXJpdHkvRmlvbmEiPmh0dHBzOi8vZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9Ub2JsZXJpdHkv RmlvbmE8L2E+Ljxicj48YnI+wqDCoMKgIGlmIGZpcnN0X2xpbmUuc3RhcnRzd2l0aCh1JiMzOTtc eDFlJiMzOTspOjxicj7CoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBkZWYgZmVhdHVyZV9nZW4oKTo8YnI+wqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBidWZmZXIgPSBmaXJzdF9saW5lLnN0cmlwKHUmIzM5O1x4MWUmIzM5 Oyk8YnI+wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBmb3IgbGluZSBpbiBzdGRpbjo8YnI+wqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgIGlmIGxpbmUuc3RhcnRzd2l0aCh1JiMzOTtceDFlJiMz OTspOjxicj7CoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBpZiBidWZmZXI6 PGJyPsKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgeWllbGQg anNvbi5sb2FkcyhidWZmZXIpPGJyPsKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgIGJ1ZmZlciA9IGxpbmUuc3RyaXAodSYjMzk7XHgxZSYjMzk7KTxicj7CoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgZWxzZTo8YnI+wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgwqAgYnVmZmVyICs9IGxpbmU8YnI+wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBlbHNlOjxi cj7CoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgeWllbGQganNvbi5sb2FkcyhidWZmZXIp PGJyPjxicj48ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9leHRyYSI+TWFraW5nIHRleHQgc2VxdWVuY2VzIHdp dGggcHJpbnRmIHRvIHRlc3QgbXkgY29tbWFuZCBsaW5lIHByb2dyYW1zIGlzIG5vdCBhIHByb2Js ZW0gYXQgYWxsOjxicj48YnI+wqDCoMKgIHJlc3VsdCA9IHN1YnByb2Nlc3MuY2hlY2tfb3V0cHV0 KDxicj7CoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCAmcXVvdDtwcmludGYgJiMzOTtceDFlJXNcblx4MWUlcyYjMzk7 IHwgZmlvIGNvbGxlY3QmcXVvdDsgJSAoPGJyPsKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAganNvbi5k dW1wcyhmZWF0dXJlLCBpbmRlbnQ9MiksIGpzb24uZHVtcHMoZmVhdHVyZSwgaW5kZW50PTIpKSw8 YnI+wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgc2hlbGw9VHJ1ZSk8YnI+PC9kaXY+PGRpdiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxf ZXh0cmEiPjxicj48L2Rpdj48ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9leHRyYSI+VGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUg aGFyZCB3b3JrLCBldmVyeWJvZHkuIEpTT04gVGV4dCBTZXF1ZW5jZSBpcyBkZWZpbml0ZWx5IHVz ZWZ1bCBmb3Igc3BhdGlhbCBkYXRhIGludGVyY2hhbmdlIGFuZCBwcm9jZXNzaW5nLjxicj48L2Rp dj48ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9leHRyYSI+PGJyPi0tIDxicj5TZWFuIEdpbGxpZXMNCjwvZGl2 PjwvZGl2PjwvZGl2Pg0K --089e0116105a1859ae0503bf6d53--