From nobody Mon Aug 1 01:04:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF0912D536; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:04:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNMIdcdC9iq3; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 344D212B00C; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id j124so162959527ith.1; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 01:04:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T8SbVmw6yYvPB1+poUlb1+uZZjbS4CHnz23Qr2USP/4=; b=N8kMhMeBLcihxHyBQToA5wT+ESsNVXsFVBOh2RJej22ntzW455dWn/6RC04Ki2SNZB fbxnNqhKqh+yKtxy3OmdCtRC1zyXmt2m1mDOM0YnDHHNXkyfqedW6t3qFSu2fHWsPDjK 8p3zAaP9udYW9NkS5cAOuclsD+F93UgxhXk0TUAABpiT/5Qq6j1ssAxqpcW+HKMoz4po S2mu0r+JSQdbAzge1mPGzR7gmuukA/g1k9f2JDTYBaQiwZVultWmmgWRXayc5U47OqE7 qi3jSALktTl8o8pJhFc9VEWCIX+bQL7iCqpCm5brIIvinBGGdrHRZayuuDpD3w7s1dmO +jzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T8SbVmw6yYvPB1+poUlb1+uZZjbS4CHnz23Qr2USP/4=; b=fvwkDnTInWr3aJvMiV3DRD3z/kzPp69WzEZQplL0BrBpQUO7Z5nL5u7NymbrhWoJq2 AMxhMenS0mBMEARZMi3E3/8vv6S64ixvnYDDgRfdtr4vV1fhBuzC1+ywy9iWQrGN+w9Y c4r0vGbkru1qcEHlOq2ZYPFqDW32g4XkjHe/uCXvk2cBhdgXchVN4lxv9+GclJokVHKn 5AE/EEQSlZLvS8NwO3CYfx5LSRsYAaBT67JNzibdSvSDa10u7d6tru1yEewcaqXzr/HF Nq8Ppv3yG8AsTrUi2UdYGg06a82wQBeRfbiScd/PPDx4O8HVfakcBso3NLHjqfnVkqcu XOqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkooutawH0qaNmCFPYTYzlj0UP1guQ9OCfxqjPpnmz8WvSbXjjSFH7L+x1Xk7HZEqcVyCNfu3+2rl4DzhlOgQ== X-Received: by 10.36.144.68 with SMTP id x65mr51251561itd.70.1470038695514; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 01:04:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.85.213 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1364632d-a951-4c86-cd96-35982fbb670c@gmail.com> References: <4c9504d3-c212-0b8c-0016-b31d653f15a6@gmail.com> <9E2C2681-B776-444F-84DC-9A28130DB2C1@cisco.com> <77e8ce0f-ceb3-0b69-54eb-635afbdf2a17@gmx.de> <881fe29a-71fc-8012-6488-c823f0ebfbbf@gmail.com> <1364632d-a951-4c86-cd96-35982fbb670c@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:04:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Anders Rundgren Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07e806409a220538fe0efe Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org" , Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 08:04:58 -0000 --94eb2c07e806409a220538fe0efe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The issue doesn't seem to matter. - Rob On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Anders Rundgren < anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2016-08-01 03:22, Peter F. Patel-Schneider wrote: > >> I don't think that trust enters into the equation here. >> > > The obvious solution is removing the ECMA reference. Not because > "The IETF has a problem with ECMA", but because the idea of having > two organizations being authoritative/normative for a standard is > pointless unless they work together on a single document. > > ECMA should consider referencing the RFC instead of duplicating it. > > Anders > > > >> A standards document, be it from IETF, or from some other organization, >> should >> be complete before being considered for final review. This is not the >> case >> for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 because one of its normative >> references >> is not available for review in the form that it needs to be to support >> draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02. Trust in ECMA or WG chairs or ADs is = no >> substitute for having an actual document to review. >> >> If there is trust involved it would be trusting that ECMA doesn't turn >> around >> and remove the reciprocal language in a future revision of ECMA-404. >> >> peter >> >> >> On 07/30/2016 03:13 AM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> >>> I think this is an issue of trust, from both sides. For those not in a >>> mood to >>> trust ECMA, I suggest they trust our WG chairs and ADs. >>> >>> (If everything goes really wrong, we can always issue a revision with t= he >>> reference to the ECMA side removed.) >>> >>> Regards, Martin. >>> >>> On 2016/07/29 01:13, Julian Reschke wrote: >>> >>>> On 2016-07-28 18:05, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree that the document should not be published as an RFC until we >>>>> have the equivalent last-call doc from ECMA, and we do a coordinated >>>>> publish of the two documents. But having our side ready to go, >>>>> including finishing AUTH48, will allow us to not be the bottleneck in >>>>> that process. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not sure. "approved" means "approved". I believe we need a mechanism >>>> that makes sure that the update of 404 not only happens, but that it >>>> also contains the change we expect. >>>> >>>> I believe we have adequate protections in place with Alexey not >>>>> pushing the button until the right time, and making sure that the RFC >>>>> Production Center is aware of the dependency to what amounts to a >>>>> downref. >>>>> >>>>> Would it help if we replaced the ECMA-404 reference with a a ref to >>>>> ECMA-404bis (with details left out)? That would make it *very* clear >>>>> to the RPC what we intend, and would trigger processes they have in >>>>> place to ensure the reference is resolved before publishing. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I think that helps, but it's not sufficient. >>>> >>>> Best regards, Julian >>>> >>>> PS: ...and we need a minor revision anyway; see prior feedback. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> json mailing list >>>> json@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >>>> . >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >> >> > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --94eb2c07e806409a220538fe0efe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The issue doesn't seem to matter.

-= Rob

O= n Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgr= en.net@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-01 03:22, Peter F. Patel-Schneider wrote:
I don't think that trust enters into the equation here.

The obvious solution is removing the ECMA reference. Not because
"The IETF has a problem with ECMA", but because the idea of havin= g
two organizations being authoritative/normative for a standard is
pointless unless they work together on a single document.

ECMA should consider referencing the RFC instead of duplicating it.

Anders



A standards document, be it from IETF, or from some other organization, sho= uld
be complete before being considered for final review.=C2=A0 This is not the= case
for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 because one of its normative reference= s
is not available for review in the form that it needs to be to support
draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.=C2=A0 Trust in ECMA or WG chairs or ADs i= s no
substitute for having an actual document to review.

If there is trust involved it would be trusting that ECMA doesn't turn = around
and remove the reciprocal language in a future=C2=A0 revision of ECMA-404.<= br>
peter


On 07/30/2016 03:13 AM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
I think this is an issue of trust, from both sides. For those not in a mood= to
trust ECMA, I suggest they trust our WG chairs and ADs.

(If everything goes really wrong, we can always issue a revision with the reference to the ECMA side removed.)

Regards,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.

On 2016/07/29 01:13, Julian Reschke wrote:
On 2016-07-28 18:05, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote:
I agree that the document should not be published as an RFC until we
have the equivalent last-call doc from ECMA, and we do a coordinated
publish of the two documents.=C2=A0 But having our side ready to go,
including finishing AUTH48, will allow us to not be the bottleneck in
that process.

Not sure. "approved" means "approved". I believe we nee= d a mechanism
that makes sure that the update of 404 not only happens, but that it
also contains the change we expect.

I believe we have adequate protections in place with Alexey not
pushing the button until the right time, and making sure that the RFC
Production Center is aware of the dependency to what amounts to a
downref.

Would it help if we replaced the ECMA-404 reference with a a ref to
ECMA-404bis (with details left out)?=C2=A0 That would make it *very* clear<= br> to the RPC what we intend, and would trigger processes they have in
place to ensure the reference is resolved before publishing.

I think that helps, but it's not sufficient.

Best regards, Julian

PS: ...and we need a minor revision anyway; see prior feedback.




_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json
.


_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json


_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json

--94eb2c07e806409a220538fe0efe-- From nobody Tue Aug 2 22:18:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EC012D734 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:18:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BV5FfR_uctX4 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x231.google.com (mail-qt0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 429F5128874 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 52so136512292qtq.3 for ; Tue, 02 Aug 2016 22:17:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=aQClVoGmh8ZeqpwdZxCl4NJfQ/pKL9LdcpBdyEJvhGk=; b=WdRFAkpSWftjZoHWcV3YJS3IV+ZRx3egFpXk8ylL7nRFS+23wN7TwpWFoxbHqXTIJl FqF8HKjn6Zj9GvAVy25q3wIx0ZA4cWfrZlwKR4eiTt/peinS6bVkBYCRmaW3Rzk1lYOl fShvsjZi2waQzljlHp2i0IBoPsesj+DNv4+GADbiAJQLTQzxvsjnqQ/hEDpKr1cs8nuN Jxz/C9JkSwzb7R1T5nJ4F18/+jcHCm6rfBdGcF2pwFKrOZ1SaWhwXMpPoaUdiWTn4/2x 0MDBdorixc8xjoZFK3Ljv/6ilp6DZ4awtbZe2ykb7ubVY2ON4vjI44eYiwkAZbgRMjeN HzuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=aQClVoGmh8ZeqpwdZxCl4NJfQ/pKL9LdcpBdyEJvhGk=; b=elR8pbUFaveLEEM8Gcr8HCSQhRChgtcafHfuz5dzJ3KAJU9KEtFL8JS8/iroYn1qXk sCKJY4V3mcwd+c8LRZH3X3Kta7nHGaheaxrMj+51CGD3kJjrHhrvGbBQLgQp3RN90Jex 74KJ5nYI5C1YP7zi4Xj8Eaej9/uMIIJSNEtypJNd/1gBqx9lX1u75g15mAmGVjtUiOTT aR0EuW1kqL++mlT5BdJbCkGgQFzh21J43SpJOTkhCUK6HlPr1tUug8riX4Jr0VW4FNOA lNuE2cQ8wu6/XM4qyrjg/DmAjCXN3ZLkNNPMb6tgTGiZwVj9w0CgAEYfJzmTpuGHIiH4 0N3w== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoous/AvEUJQcLVRgjrJvcbfxTofBclveVSHKaeZ0/P3ttvhmxvGINWlV3Lf2gPF3yIkupnHvG/RbH3vA4sA== X-Received: by 10.237.36.112 with SMTP id s45mr100521580qtc.7.1470201477152; Tue, 02 Aug 2016 22:17:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.98.212 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:17:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.248.61] From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:17:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fecdecb675f053923f4e3 Archived-At: Subject: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 05:18:00 -0000 --001a113fecdecb675f053923f4e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have recently been doing an unreasonable amount of JSON work, what with editing the drafts here, helping design AWS=E2=80=99s CloudWatch Events ser= vice [1], and now working on an interesting JSON DSL that with any luck will decloak later this year. I have encountered the following irritants: 1. When hand-editing JSON, it is unreasonably difficult to get the commas right. 2. When using JSON numbers, the sender *always* knows whether integers or floats are intended, but there=E2=80=99s no way to communicate this informa= tion. 3. There is no timestamp literal. Then I realized that the comma is not necessary to the grammar, it=E2=80=99= s only there for JavaScript compatibility. Bah. Anyhow, here=E2=80=99s the examp= le object from RFC7159: { "Image": { "Width": 800, "Height": 600, "Title": "View from 15th Floor", "Thumbnail": { "Url": "http://www.example.com/image/481989943", "Height": 125, "Width": 100 }, "Animated" : false, "IDs": [116, 943, 234, 38793] } } Here=E2=80=99s a version with a couple more fields and the irritants remove= d: { "Image": { "Width": i800 "Height": i600 "Title": "View from 15th Floor" "Thumbnail": { "Url": "http://www.example.com/image/481989943" "Height": i125 "Width": i100 } "Location": { "Latitude": f49.399673 "Longitude": f-123.508437 } "Animated" : false "Capture Time": @2016-08-01T18:15:00Z "IDs": [i116 i943 i234 i38793] } } I thought of a friendly acronym and bought a domain name and wrote an I-D too, but I thought it might be polite and useful to test the waters here, example first. [1] http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonCloudWatch/latest/DeveloperGuide/CloudWatc= hEventsandEventPatterns.html --001a113fecdecb675f053923f4e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I h= ave recently been doing an unreasonable amount of JSON work, what with edit= ing the drafts here, helping design AWS=E2=80=99s CloudWatch Events service= [1], and now working on an interesting JSON DSL that with any luck will de= cloak later this year.

I = have encountered the following irritants:

1. When hand-editing JSON, it is unreasonably difficult to= get the commas right.
2. When using JSON numbers, the sender *always* knows whether integ= ers or floats are intended, but there=E2=80=99s no way to communicate this = information.
3.= There is no timestamp literal.

Then I realized that the comma is not necessary to the grammar, it= =E2=80=99s only there for JavaScript compatibility.=C2=A0 Bah.=C2=A0 Anyhow= , here=E2=80=99s the example object from RFC7159:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0{
<= div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Image": {
<= div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Width&q= uot;: =C2=A0800,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0"Height": 600,
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Title": =C2=A0"View from 15th F= loor",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0"Thumbnail": {
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Url": =C2=A0 =C2=A0"<= a href=3D"http://www.example.com/image/481989943">http://www.example.com/im= age/481989943",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Height": 125,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Wi= dth": =C2=A0100
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0},
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0"Animated" : false,
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"IDs": [116, 943, 234, 38793]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
=C2=A0 =C2=A0}

Here=E2=80=99s a version with a couple more fields and the= irritants removed:

=C2= =A0 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Image": {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Width"= : =C2=A0i800
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0"Height": i600
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Title": =C2=A0"View from 15th Floor= "
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= "Thumbnail": {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Url": =C2=A0 =C2=A0"http://www.example.com/image/= 481989943"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Height": i125
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Width"= ;: =C2=A0i100
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0}
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0"Location": {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Latitude": f49.399673
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&= quot;Longitude": f-123.508437
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Animated" : false
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Capture Time": @20= 16-08-01T18:15:00Z
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0"IDs": [i116 i943 i234 i38793]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
=C2=A0 =C2=A0}

I thought of = a friendly acronym and bought a domain name and wrote an I-D too, but I tho= ught it might be polite and useful to test the waters here, example first.<= /div>

[1]=C2=A0http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonCloudWatch/latest= /DeveloperGuide/CloudWatchEventsandEventPatterns.html
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[178.112.120.140]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u125sm25222092wmg.22.2016.08.02.22.45.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Aug 2016 22:45:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" References: From: Christian Zangl Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:45:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 05:45:57 -0000 For hand-editing JSON you may want to take a look at Hjson (http://hjson.org). On 2016-08-03 07:17, Tim Bray wrote: > I have recently been doing an unreasonable amount of JSON work, what > with editing the drafts here, helping design AWS’s CloudWatch Events > service [1], and now working on an interesting JSON DSL that with any > luck will decloak later this year. > > I have encountered the following irritants: > > 1. When hand-editing JSON, it is unreasonably difficult to get the > commas right. > 2. When using JSON numbers, the sender *always* knows whether integers > or floats are intended, but there’s no way to communicate this information. > 3. There is no timestamp literal. > > Then I realized that the comma is not necessary to the grammar, it’s > only there for JavaScript compatibility. Bah. Anyhow, here’s the > example object from RFC7159: > > { > "Image": { > "Width": 800, > "Height": 600, > "Title": "View from 15th Floor", > "Thumbnail": { > "Url": "http://www.example.com/image/481989943", > "Height": 125, > "Width": 100 > }, > "Animated" : false, > "IDs": [116, 943, 234, 38793] > } > } > > Here’s a version with a couple more fields and the irritants removed: > > { > "Image": { > "Width": i800 > "Height": i600 > "Title": "View from 15th Floor" > "Thumbnail": { > "Url": "http://www.example.com/image/481989943" > "Height": i125 > "Width": i100 > } > "Location": { > "Latitude": f49.399673 > "Longitude": f-123.508437 > } > "Animated" : false > "Capture Time": @2016-08-01T18:15:00Z > "IDs": [i116 i943 i234 i38793] > } > } > > > I thought of a friendly acronym and bought a domain name and wrote an > I-D too, but I thought it might be polite and useful to test the waters > here, example first. > > [1] http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonCloudWatch/latest/DeveloperGuide/CloudWatchEventsandEventPatterns.html > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Tue Aug 2 23:16:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30F412D11A for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:16:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivm8WwmsJMXh for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcno.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcno.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.82.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C82120727 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.28,464,1464616800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="94075926" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcbni.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.216.204]) by ipocni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2016 16:15:56 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5700,7163,8245"; a="161119971" Received: from wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) by ipcbni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2016 16:15:56 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([fe80::8dc9:173:3b72:6577%23]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 16:15:56 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 16:15:54 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON irritants Thread-Index: AdHtRm+U0ShfDAAoToiTdZoZlldlzAAAnH2A Message-ID: 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b3Blckd1aWRlL0Nsb3VkV2F0Y2hFdmVudHNhbmRFdmVudFBhdHRlcm5zLmh0bWwiPmh0dHA6Ly9k b2NzLmF3cy5hbWF6b24uY29tL0FtYXpvbkNsb3VkV2F0Y2gvbGF0ZXN0L0RldmVsb3Blckd1aWRl L0Nsb3VkV2F0Y2hFdmVudHNhbmRFdmVudFBhdHRlcm5zLmh0bWw8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+ PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9ib2R5PjwvaHRtbD4= --_000_255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14WSMSG3153Vsrv_-- From nobody Wed Aug 3 06:47:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69DA12DD95 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 06:47:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S-a2-XLv4FF4 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 06:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E81C12DDAC for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 06:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1bUwOg-0001h1-7t; Wed, 03 Aug 2016 09:39:46 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:39:46 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Manger, James" Message-ID: <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 13:47:16 -0000 Manger, James scripsit: > Yuck for i800 and f49.399. I’d prefer the presence of a decimal > point “.” or exponent symbol “e” to imply a float; and their > absence to imply an integer. +1. That is how my JSON parser works in any case. > Optional commas sounds okay. I wouldn’t like to forbid them as > [11, 234, 5, 6] is nicer than [11 234 5 6]. I think an important point is being allowed to include a redundant final comma. > Encouraging yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss[.sss…]Z for instants of time is > great. I’m less sure that distinguishing it from a string is so > crucial. Mmm, I think it's good to have it as a separate type. I don't see any need for the @ prefix, though. A date-time literal doesn't look like anything else. But as someone who tried with XML 1.1 and XML 1.0 5e, I suspect that any such effort as this is doomed to obscurity. The improvements aren't massive enough to be worth the conversion effort and loss of interoperability. FtanML, now ... -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Mos Eisley spaceport. You will never see a more wretched hive of scum and villainy --unless you watch the Jerry Springer Show. --georgettesworld.com From nobody Wed Aug 3 08:09:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224B512DC60 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:09:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yg_9iIlJrqUZ for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DD4912D5AF for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70tumx2.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.245.18.14]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 6470392016BC1; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:08:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.64]) by us70tumx2.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id u73F83km021076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:08:03 GMT Received: from umail.lucent.com (umail.ndc.lucent.com [135.3.40.61]) by us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id u73F80SO026533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:08:02 GMT Received: from [135.222.152.71] (wdr-i7mbp2.mh.lucent.com [135.222.152.71]) by umail.lucent.com (8.13.8/TPES) with ESMTP id u73F7v4O012060; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:07:58 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.6.160626 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 11:08:23 -0400 From: Wendy Roome To: John Cowan , "Manger, James" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON irritants References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 15:09:41 -0000 On 08/03/2016, 09:39, "John Cowan=B2, cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: >Manger, James scripsit: > >> Yuck for i800 and f49.399. I=B9d prefer the presence of a decimal >> point =B3.=B2 or exponent symbol =B3e=B2 to imply a float; and their >> absence to imply an integer. > >+1. That is how my JSON parser works in any case. Ditto. > >> Optional commas sounds okay. I wouldn=B9t like to forbid them as >> [11, 234, 5, 6] is nicer than [11 234 5 6]. > >I think an important point is being allowed to include a redundant >final comma. An optional final comma would be very convenient. But I think optional separator commas, with some rule to impute a comma at the end of a line, is a bad idea. Suppose the json runs thru a compressor that automagically squeezes out unnecessary white space. The result would be illegal unless the compressor understood the new rules. > >> Encouraging yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss[.sss=8A]Z for instants of time is >> great. I=B9m less sure that distinguishing it from a string is so >> crucial. > >Mmm, I think it's good to have it as a separate type. I don't see any >need for the @ prefix, though. A date-time literal doesn't look like >anything else. I think that is getting too complex. Better to use strings and have the end apps agree that this field is a date. > >But as someone who tried with XML 1.1 and XML 1.0 5e, I suspect that >any such effort as this is doomed to obscurity. The improvements >aren't massive enough to be worth the conversion effort and loss of >interoperability. *SIGH* I have to agree with that 1000%. Much as it would be nice to extend JSON like that, interoperability will prevent it. There are *a lot* of JSON libraries out there. When would you, as a JSON creator, think it is safe to assume that every JSON library your client apps will use understands the extensions? My guess is that would be about the same time that we start worrying about the Y10K problem. :-) For example, think about the number of time you write instead of , because some early xml parser didn't handle the latter properly. - Wendy Roome From nobody Wed Aug 3 08:37:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA5412DCC8 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:37:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Emx3trEOxSOx for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2084E12D66A for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1bUyCe-0007uP-AJ; Wed, 03 Aug 2016 11:35:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:35:28 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Wendy Roome Message-ID: <20160803153527.GE30359@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "Manger, James" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 15:37:16 -0000 Wendy Roome scripsit: > An optional final comma would be very convenient. But I think optional > separator commas, with some rule to impute a comma at the end of a line, > is a bad idea. Suppose the json runs thru a compressor that automagically > squeezes out unnecessary white space. The result would be illegal unless > the compressor understood the new rules. If it didn't understand the new rules, it wouldn't accept [1 2 3] or {"foo":"bar" "baz":"zam"} in the first place, so I don't think that's a separate problem. > For example, think about the number of time you write instead of > , because some early xml parser didn't handle the latter properly. Actually, it's older HTML parsers that had that problem, not XML ones. Empty-tags didn't exist when HTML was derived from SGML. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo From nobody Thu Aug 4 10:49:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B4B12D5B1 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.808 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.808 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xXDWniIWTs0k for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 847A312D69A for ; 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Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:50:52 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.220.141) by XCH-RTP-003.cisco.com (64.101.220.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:50:51 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-001.cisco.com ([64.101.220.141]) by XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com ([64.101.220.141]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:50:51 -0400 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: John Cowan , "Manger, James" Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON irritants Thread-Index: AQHR7UZrh82lIZMJ7E6HoY6TwevAEaA3BXwAgAB8BACAAXPmgA== Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:50:51 +0000 Message-ID: <2C110290-8873-4A8C-B62D-DCE39D1FB745@cisco.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.18.0.160709 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.21.73] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 17:50:56 -0000 T24gOC8zLzE2LCA3OjM5IEFNLCAianNvbiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgSm9obiBDb3dhbiIgPGpzb24t Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgY293YW5AbWVyY3VyeS5jY2lsLm9yZz4gd3Jv dGU6DQoNCj5CdXQgYXMgc29tZW9uZSB3aG8gdHJpZWQgd2l0aCBYTUwgMS4xIGFuZCBYTUwgMS4w IDVlLCBJIHN1c3BlY3QgdGhhdA0KPmFueSBzdWNoIGVmZm9ydCBhcyB0aGlzIGlzIGRvb21lZCB0 byBvYnNjdXJpdHkuICBUaGUgaW1wcm92ZW1lbnRzDQo+YXJlbid0IG1hc3NpdmUgZW5vdWdoIHRv IGJlIHdvcnRoIHRoZSBjb252ZXJzaW9uIGVmZm9ydCBhbmQgbG9zcyBvZg0KPmludGVyb3BlcmFi aWxpdHkuDQoNCkZpcnN0OiBpbWFnaW5lIGEgbmV3IG1lZGlhIHR5cGUuICBTZWNvbmQ6IGNvbW1l bnRzIGFyZSBhIGJpZyBlbm91Z2ggd2luIHRvIGNhdXNlIGF0IGxlYXN0IHNvbWUgYWRvcHRpb24g Zm9yIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gZmlsZXMuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Aug 4 12:25:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CA512DAC6 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:24:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLkvq4GpniOL for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C25B312D799 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1bVOG8-0001b9-OI; Thu, 04 Aug 2016 15:24:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:24:48 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20160804192446.GA5679@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> <2C110290-8873-4A8C-B62D-DCE39D1FB745@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2C110290-8873-4A8C-B62D-DCE39D1FB745@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "Manger, James" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 19:24:59 -0000 Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) scripsit: > First: imagine a new media type. Second: comments are a big enough win to cause at least some adoption for configuration files. Sure, and that way of thinking leads to YAML, which has had some success. But it hasn't turfed out JSON, and it's unlikely that anything else will turf out YAML. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org They do not preach that their God will rouse them A little before the nuts work loose. They do not teach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when they damn-well choose. --Rudyard Kipling, "The Sons of Martha" From nobody Thu Aug 4 12:56:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B102012DAF3 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.808 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.808 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PgImWsu1LTyP for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1E0C3EA842F3E74B93D666087340AF1D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "Manger, James" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 19:56:43 -0000 T24gOC80LzE2LCAxOjI0IFBNLCAiSm9obiBDb3dhbiIgPGNvd2FuQGNjaWwub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFs ZiBvZiBjb3dhbkBtZXJjdXJ5LmNjaWwub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPlN1cmUsIGFuZCB0aGF0IHdh eSBvZiB0aGlua2luZyBsZWFkcyB0byBZQU1MLCB3aGljaCBoYXMgaGFkIHNvbWUgc3VjY2Vzcy4N Cj5CdXQgaXQgaGFzbid0IHR1cmZlZCBvdXQgSlNPTiwgYW5kIGl0J3MgdW5saWtlbHkgdGhhdCBh bnl0aGluZyBlbHNlIHdpbGwNCj50dXJmIG91dCBZQU1MLg0KDQpBZ3JlZS4gIExldCBhIGRvemVu IGZsb3dlcnMgYmxvb20uICBNZWRpYSB0eXBlcyBhcmUgY2hlYXAuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRl YnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Aug 4 20:00:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0F512D8AC for ; 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Thu, 04 Aug 2016 20:00:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.85.213 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Aug 2016 20:00:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <90D00DC6-614E-465C-A57C-599F58FF71B4@cisco.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E13BFDE57E14@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20160803133945.GC30359@mercury.ccil.org> <2C110290-8873-4A8C-B62D-DCE39D1FB745@cisco.com> <20160804192446.GA5679@mercury.ccil.org> <90D00DC6-614E-465C-A57C-599F58FF71B4@cisco.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 20:00:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fe1d4dc020e05394a455f Archived-At: Cc: Tim Bray , "Manger, James" , John Cowan , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON irritants X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 03:00:48 -0000 --001a113fe1d4dc020e05394a455f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There are plenty of wire formats that don't have these problems. None of them are called "JSON", and this one shouldn't be either (doesn't sound like it will be). YAML, TOML, Avro, Thrift, CBOR, Protocol Buffers, and many others all address some of these problems. Some aren't as self-describing as JSON is. - Rob On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > On 8/4/16, 1:24 PM, "John Cowan" cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: > > >Sure, and that way of thinking leads to YAML, which has had some success. > >But it hasn't turfed out JSON, and it's unlikely that anything else will > >turf out YAML. > > Agree. Let a dozen flowers bloom. Media types are cheap. > > -- > Joe Hildebrand > > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --001a113fe1d4dc020e05394a455f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are plenty of wire formats that don't have these= problems. None of them are called "JSON", and this one shouldn&#= 39;t be either (doesn't sound like it will be).

YAML= , TOML, Avro, Thrift, CBOR, Protocol Buffers, and many others all address s= ome of these problems. Some aren't as self-describing as JSON is.
=

- Rob


On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Joe Hil= debrand (jhildebr) <jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:
On 8/4/16, 1:24 PM, "John Cowan= " <cowan@ccil.org on behalf o= f cowan@mercury.ccil.org> = wrote:

>Sure, and that way of thinking leads to YAML, which has had some succes= s.
>But it hasn't turfed out JSON, and it's unlikely that anything = else will
>turf out YAML.

Agree.=C2=A0 Let a dozen flowers bloom.=C2=A0 Media types are cheap.=

--
Joe Hildebrand




_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json

--001a113fe1d4dc020e05394a455f-- From nobody Mon Aug 8 03:03:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB94212D0C5; Mon, 8 Aug 2016 03:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.718 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.718 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=KhvEhE2G; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=hhyzPZPI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AbHkhbKo7z3x; Mon, 8 Aug 2016 03:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55AED12D0C7; Mon, 8 Aug 2016 03:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C480D20359; Mon, 8 Aug 2016 06:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 08 Aug 2016 06:03:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=UKNYJR3Up4gSlCHZvfjOosF7mKw=; b=KhvEhE 2GDggvjBSKY3Pg/dLBHSareCkcB2vEt8gxXBqm6RENnYPa+jcf9tWki+mTf9hDkm OYIq42LIKZwt4qvcmONQIC2wzTGX4LSsXevZoM/JOuZnpyipPdT5Deidm88W6xi3 tFkZOXCnjMDsGBcNfSsNqeNxGvbqlQWsaZr1c= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=UKNYJR3Up4gSlCH ZvfjOosF7mKw=; b=hhyzPZPIXVrX+4PkkWPf269t29bFOsx+I3MhEjIDJfRAL8t +DiwBxAcpNMXZrkFrkxfI+a4TehrSc9H/BQLf98Jm0fQ99eKvv4rbLHobDbCKEWj gmid/JEqh+OVMA5GPu7ptBlAkpLBaDGJjZ33wxElN2v5EZUOBrUQIL0ni2WA= X-Sasl-enc: NEeUwgAF07t8DFxffQuduv1aSHRb+BF22RPpTWWxJv+Y 1470650610 Received: from [192.168.0.6] (cpc5-nmal20-2-0-cust24.19-2.cable.virginm.net [92.234.84.25]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 62C76CCE6E; Mon, 8 Aug 2016 06:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-58828264-DFA2-4E1E-ACCA-A486832DF501 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13G34) In-Reply-To: <9FD90C0C-FAAA-4109-856E-DF1746B78A0D@fastmail.fm> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:14:54 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <49EB1F76-E29A-4EFA-8921-FC9474C751BF@fastmail.fm> References: <4c9504d3-c212-0b8c-0016-b31d653f15a6@gmail.com> <9E2C2681-B776-444F-84DC-9A28130DB2C1@cisco.com> <77e8ce0f-ceb3-0b69-54eb-635afbdf2a17@gmx.de> <9FD90C0C-FAAA-4109-856E-DF1746B78A0D@fastmail.fm> To: "json@ietf.org" Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org" Subject: [Json] Early AD review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 10:03:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail-58828264-DFA2-4E1E-ACCA-A486832DF501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Here are my comments on the document, most of them are nits: "Byte order mark" in Section 8.1 needs a definition, for example by includin= g the Unicode codepoint value. In Section 11: I think you meant to update references to point to this docum= ent, not an earlier RFC. Appendix A needs to be checked that it is correct. I think at least a couple= of things are out of date. First mention of UTF-8, UTF-16 need normative references. Sent from my iPad= --Apple-Mail-58828264-DFA2-4E1E-ACCA-A486832DF501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
Here are my comments on the document, most of them are nits:


In Section 11: I thin= k you meant to update references to point to this document, not an earlier R= FC.

Appendix A needs to be checked that it is correct= . I think at least a couple of things are out of date.





Sent from my iPad
= --Apple-Mail-58828264-DFA2-4E1E-ACCA-A486832DF501--