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remove@eif.net _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@ns.ietf.org Fri Jan 4 15:10:30 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA12925 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA05467 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05362; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05332 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA12876 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id g04K6pq09071 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from spandex.cisco.com (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACK11940; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:05:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020104150503.00a53a00@localhost> X-Sender: mshore@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:09:50 -0500 To: midcom@ietf.org From: Melinda Shore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [midcom] Fwd: RE: midcom minutes Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Many, many thanks to Tom and to Brian. Please post comments to the mailing list. Melinda >From: "Tom-PT Taylor" >To: "'Melinda Shore'" >Cc: "Brian Stucker" >Subject: RE: midcom minutes >Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:47:22 -0500 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) > >Here are the draft minutes. I had help in fleshing those out, from Brian Stucker. > >Draft MIDCOM Minutes >Recorded by Tom Taylor and Brian Stucker > >MIDCOM met 7:30-10:00pm Monday, December 10. Melinda Shore was Chair. > >1. Agenda > ====== > >The proposed agenda was accepted without change. > >2. Alternative Midcom Approach > (draft-shore-friendly-midcom-00.txt) > ==================================== >Melinda Shore presented the advantages of using an approach based on the RSVP model. >Open issues: > - doesn't function with mediated signalling (gatekeeper, proxy) > - keying > - protocol selection. > >Question: how open is the Working Group to changing its model? > >Christian Huitema expressed his opposition to the proposal. The Working Group has had one year of discussion and has arrived at a consensus on requirements. We cannot throw that away. Addressing the proposed use of RSVP as a model, he pointed out that RSVP could never solve the issue of authentication along the path. Moreover, RSVP requires that both ends be aware of each other. > >Jonathan Rosenberg argued that Melinda was working on a new problem, which should be addressed by a new BOF. There is no single solution to all cases, and her proposal would present issues for third party control. > >Cedric Aoun pointed out that route discovery is important, and needs to be part of the MIDCOM solution. > >Melinda responded that the solutions proposed up to now all involve putting routing information into the agents, and this is a problem. > >Further discussion supported the view that Melinda was proposing a new problem which should be handled by a separate Working Group. There was some argument over whether this effort should be sequential or parallel. Scott Bradner, Transport Area Director, provided a final view of consensus: to continue along the lines already established by the Working Group. > >3. Rechartering > ============ > >Melinda Shore suggested the next step: we need comparison documents for protocol selection. Cedric Aoun reminded the group of the existence of an analysis of COPS (draft-aoun-midcom-cops-00.txt) and Megaco (draft-sct-midcom-megaco-00.txt). He wondered if discovery could be added as a work item. Cullen Jennings opposed this broadening of the effort. The Chair ruled that the Working Group has not done requirements and framework for discovery, so it is out of scope. > >3.1 Pre-MIDCOM > ---------- > >Leslie Daigle discussed IAB concerns with the pre-MIDCOM work. At the time of the MIDCOM meeting the IAB was divided and had no consensus position. MIDCOM was to be a topic for the IAB meeting the next day, and they might be able to report an outcome at the IAB plenary Thursday night. The fundamental issue is that the workarounds go around the intended architecture. The key points the WG should be aware of are to recognize that pre-MIDCOM is a short term fix, and to make sure it doesn't get in the way of the target architecture. One major concern is that even pre-MIDCOM solutions will take ages to deploy, and will be around forever once they are deployed. > >Rohan Mahy asked if the IAB is concerned with operation in the here and now? The response was that the concern is whether the pre-MIDCOM effort will lead to a fix whose cost and lifetime don't merit the effort. The IAB wants to make sure the right 20% of functionality doesn't get done. > >Christian Huitema asked if the IAB had a concern that ultimate MIDCOM as opposed to pre-MIDCOM could block IPv6 address deployment. Leslie Daigle was unable to speak for the IAB at this point. Rohan Mahy asked if SHIPWORM (draft-ietf-ngtrans-shipworm-03.txt) is a concern to IAB. The answer was that SHIPWORM will be discussed. > >Eliot Lear expressed the suspicion that TURN will take longer to implement than people expect. The weighing of concerns may be better done in the IRTF or IAB than in the IETF. Jonathan Rosenberg restated the IAB concern: make sure not too much effort goes into the short-term solution. There is an upper bound to the WG's effort on this item. > >Brian Carpenter noted that SHIPWORM has the useful property that it preserves layer separation, thereby reducing complexity. We should bear the same principle in mind for other work. > >The Chair brought the meeting back to the basic question: how does the WG go forward? > >Pete Cordell asked if the IAB would decide within the week. The response was that it is hard to assign a probability that the IAB would reach a position quickly. > >Allison Mankin, Transport Area Director, reported that there had been some IESG soul-searching on the question of whether the WG should have been given the-Midcom task. The bce of IESG opinion is still that it will have worthwhile results. The Area Directors are looking for the room's opinion: keep pre-MIDCOM in the Working Group or move it out (e.g. relegate to individual RFCs or various other solns). Scott Bradner noted that multiple standards-track RFCs for this problem might not be viewed favourably. > >Jonathan expressed fear that if we defer the work application intelligence will continue to be added in NATs and firewalls rather than in a more suitable location. > >By show of hands, there was not overwhelming consensus to keep the pre-MIDCOM work item. The Chair ruled that meeting would continue its agenda on the assumption we keep pre-MIDCOM in the WG, but the decision will be verified on the list. She noted that the pre-MIDCOM work item has proved more difficult than expected -- the original milestone date was October. > >4. MIDCOM-Unaware NAT/Firewall Traversal > (draft-sen-midcom-fw-nat-00.txt) > ===================================== > >Mary Barnes presented. > >Benefits >-------- > - works for enterprise networks > - minimizes the impact and knowledge required in clients > - additions to SIP are limited to a new lightweight SIP PING method and a new Proxy-Require tag > - existing rather than a new protocol is used between the Media Proxy and the SIP proxies > - network configuration for this solution is simple > - Media Proxy has additional potential uses beyond NAT passage > - NAT bindings are not carried in signalling messages. > >Issues >------ > - solution is SIP-specific > - expensive in terms of network resources > - requires the use of symmetric RTP > - impacts enterprise firewall policy. > >The Nortel IPR claim associated with this draft was noted in subsequent discussion. > >5. Traversal of non-Protocol Aware Firewalls & NATS > (draft-davies-fw-nat-traversal-01.txt) > ========================================== > >Steve Davies presented. > >Benefits >-------- > >The primary argument offered was that FANTOM is consistent with the long-term MIDCOM solution. The first slide showed the similarity of the FANTOM arch to the expected MIDCOM final result. Steve argued from that similarity that the short and long-term protocols should be the same, implying an easy transition. He stated that the FANTOM solution can be deployed anywhere, and can work with all firewall/NAT combinations. > >Issues >------ >Requires additional media hops. Midcom will fix that. > >An associated IPR claim was noted in subsequent discussion. > > >6. STUN and TURN > (draft-rosenberg-midcom-stun-00.txt) > (draft-rosenberg-midcom-turn-00.txt) > ==================================== > >Jonathan Rosenberg presented. > >STUN Benefits >------------- > > - avoid media triangulation > - simpler servers > - additional uses -- discovery, allocation, diagnostics > - new function, useful even after Midcom > - covers items where Midcom has issues: NAT upgrade, virus vulnerability of controller, configuration complexity (residential case) > > - IF deployed in symmetric-based enterprise, the advance to full Midcom is easier. > >STUN Issues >----------- > - does not handle the symmetric case > - vulnerable in a residential environment to virus infections which turn off NAT operation. > >TURN Benefits >------------- > - simplicity > - limited feature set helps deal with IT concerns > >TURN Issues >----------- > - can't run servers -- allows only one inbound association > - can't send to arbitrary places from the same socket > - association is initiated by the server rather than the client, reversing the usual client-server approach. > >Jonathan indicated that in his view these outweigh the benefits of TURN. > - limitations, but may be useful in specific situations > >7. Discussion > ========== > >7.1 IPR >------- >Scott Bradner clarified the IETF position on IPR. Disclosure is not an issue: in the case of the Sen and Davies drafts, it has been made as required. The decision on adoption of the technology is up to the Working Group. > >The Chair asked the authors of the various drafts whether they have IPR disclosures to make. >Jonathan Rosenberg and Rohan Mahy said they had none. Mary Barnes referred to the statement in the Semn draft. Christian Huitema indicated the possibility that CalTech may have revealed prior art on its web page two years ago. > >7.2 Decision Rules >------------------ > >The Chair asked what decision rules the group should use to pick a pre-MIDCOM solution. There was agreement that the group should not make an arbitrary choice, and a suggestion that STUN should be part of the final solution. The group needs requirements against which to judge the proposals. > >The point was made that identification of different network environments means different solutions have to be combined. Another speaker countered that applications inherit an even more complex environment as a result of making these distinctions. > >The Chair suggested that this was a matter of refining scope more than requirements. One question was whether pre-MIDCOM should deal with NATs only, or also firewalls? > >The Chair summed up by noting that the MIDCOM framework and requirements are going to the IESG for comment. They will be input to the rechartering discussion. It is probable that pre-Midcom will remain with the Working Group. Pre-MIDCOM seems to include STUN plus whatever falls out of the scope definition. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@ns.ietf.org Fri Jan 4 21:02:25 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17339 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA14559 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA14284; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA14245 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail3.dynamicsoft.com ([63.113.44.69]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17297 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:00:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from dynamicsoft.com ([63.113.46.84]) by mail3.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0520GVZ007368; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:00:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C365E11.9000305@dynamicsoft.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 20:59:45 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Melinda Shore CC: midcom@ietf.org Subject: Re: [midcom] Fwd: RE: midcom minutes References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020104150503.00a53a00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Comments on a few points: Melinda Shore wrote: > Many, many thanks to Tom and to Brian. Please post comments > to the mailing list. > >>By show of hands, there was not overwhelming consensus to keep the >> > pre-MIDCOM work item. The Chair ruled that meeting would continue its > agenda on the assumption we keep pre-MIDCOM in the WG, but the decision > will be verified on the list. She noted that the pre-MIDCOM work item > has proved more difficult than expected -- the original milestone date > was October. My recollection was that two questions were asked - the first, whether people wanted a pre-midcom work item to be done, to which there was good consensus. The second question was whether people thought it had to be done in the midcom group, and there was not strong consensus on that item. >>STUN Issues >>----------- >>- does not handle the symmetric case >>- vulnerable in a residential environment to virus infections which >> > turn off NAT operation. This is backwards, my point was that stun is nicely immune to viruses, since it is not a general allocation protocol as midcom is. >>TURN Issues >>----------- >>- can't run servers -- allows only one inbound association >>- can't send to arbitrary places from the same socket >>- association is initiated by the server rather than the client, >> > reversing the usual client-server approach. The last point was not an issue, it was merely a statement of fact, and in fact a benefit (this was how we prevent users from running servers). >>The Chair summed up by noting that the MIDCOM framework and >> > requirements are going to the IESG for comment. They will be input to > the rechartering discussion. It is probable that pre-Midcom will remain > with the Working Group. Pre-MIDCOM seems to include STUN plus whatever > falls out of the scope definition. More specifically, I recall consensus that stun was a good thing, in addition to a symmetric solution, either turn/fantom/sen. In particular, I recall that both Paul Francis and Steve Davies spoke in favor of moving forward with stun in addition to some kind of symmetric solution. I hope Paul or Steve will correct me if they believe I have misrepresented their statements. -Jonathan R. -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Avenue Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PH: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Jan 5 13:27:25 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06360 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA17057 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA16994; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA16964 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com (203186155190.ctinets.com [203.186.155.190]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA06274 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:20:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Reply-To: leave-sns01-152734R@cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com From: editor@netstationclub.com To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:12:25 +0800 Organization: Hi-Tech Development Co., Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [midcom] SnS e-Daily - Hong Kong, Sun, Jan 6, 2002 - Building Bridges for 20000 e-Professionals Worldwide... 24 x 7! Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: midcom@ietf.org Subject: Special Membership Invitation Dear colleague: We'd like to invite you to sample our daily newsletter, the SnS e-Daily. From time to time our members refer to us individuals who they feel might benefit from being a part of the SnS network of elite readers. And I guess that's why you're receiving this invitation! Welcome to SnS e-Daily - Hong Kong, Sun, Jan 6, 2002. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Please click at the link below for today's edition http://vanilla.sweet-n-sour.com/ns_01062002.htm AOL users click here Back up copy of today's edition http://www.hi-tech.com.hk/ns_01062002.htm AOL users click here \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ In Today's Edition:- 1. Hong Kong - briefing, workshop, classical concert, job wanted, items for sale (law books) 2. Singapore - play 3. San Francisco, CA, USA - mojito mixer 4. Santa Barbara, CA, USA - seminar 5. Santa Monica, CA, USA - networking 6. London, England - conference Since 1997, SnS has built a global community of over 20000 successful members who travel regularly and need to stay up-to-date with issues facing today's executives in the New Economy. Our focus is on people doing business in the Asia-Pacific region. We provide street-wise, street-side insight on the latest news in global business, lifestyle, upcoming events, exclusive member discounts...and much, much more! Why not give it a try...it's absolutely FREE! To learn more about us, please visit our web site http://www.netstationclub.com To receive your FREE SnS e-Daily, you need to do nothing. If you decide to become a member simply email us at members@netstationclub.com. To remove yourself automatically from the list, please see the instruction below. Thank you for your attention. Sincerely, John Jackson, Executive Editor, SnS e-Daily 1997 - 2002 netstationclub.com. All rights reserved. --- This email was sent to: midcom@ietf.org To stop receiving our daily newsletter, please reply with a blank email to the email address below leave-sns01-152734R@cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com Thank you. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Jan 7 09:16:33 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14910 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA06502 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06348; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06320 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14662; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:08:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201071408.JAA14662@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: midcom@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:08:02 -0500 Subject: [midcom] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Middlebox Communication Working Group of the IETF. Title : Middlebox Communications (MIDCOM) Protocol Requirements Author(s) : R. Swale, P. Mart, P. Sijben, S. Brim, M. Shore Filename : draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt Pages : 10 Date : 04-Jan-02 This document specifies the requirements that the Middlebox Commu- nication (midcom) protocol must satisfy in order to meet the needs of applications wishing to influence middlebox function. These requirements were developed with a specific focus on network address translation and firewall middleboxes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020104143701.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020104143701.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Tue Jan 8 23:44:50 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA20218 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA06758 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA06651; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA06619 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (IDENT:mirapoint@100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net [24.234.0.80]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA20164 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cm245.132.120.24.lvcm.com (cm245.132.120.24.lvcm.com [24.120.132.245]) by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AUP16112; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 20:39:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 20:39:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200201090439.AUP16112@100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Priority: 5 From: John Murdok To: midcom@ietf.org Reply-To: dreamerz12002@yahoo.com Subject: [midcom] Hey!! 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This email was sent via Ellipse Bulk Emailer v2.0 _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 13:23:19 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16630 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA13545 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13120; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13091 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com (zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com [47.103.122.112]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16357 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:14:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from zrchb200.us.nortel.com (zrchb200.us.nortel.com [47.103.121.45]) by zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g0GIDkr20251 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:13:46 -0600 (CST) Received: by zrchb200.us.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:13:45 -0600 Message-ID: <933FADF5E673D411B8A30002A5608A0E01187803@zrc2c012.us.nortel.com> From: "Sanjoy Sen" To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:13:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C19EB9.89DDAFF0" Subject: [midcom] Market share of various types of NAT's Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C19EB9.89DDAFF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" All, I think somebody raised the question before, but does anybody have any ball-park numbers for the market shares of the various NAT's. What're the market shares of Symmetric, Full Cone, Port Restricted Cone and Restricted Cone in each of the Small-Medium Enterprise, SOHO and Residential markets? Or what's the market shares for Symmetric vs Cone types in each of these markets? Thanks, Sanjoy Nortel Networks > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Shore [mailto:mshore@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:06 AM > To: midcom@ietf.org > Subject: [midcom] Fwd: draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-04.txt > > > To keep you posted on progress ... > > >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:00:44 -0500 (EST) > >From: Scott Bradner > >To: mankin@isi.edu, mshore@cisco.com > >Subject: draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-04.txt > > > > > >please share this with teh ID authors (and the mailing list > if you want to) > > > >the ID looks good but IETF rules require that there be a > section in RFCs > >titled "Security Considerations" - > > > >This can be done in this ID by having a Security > Considerations section that > >says > > "The secrity requirements for a midcom protocol are > discissed in sec 2.3." > > > >since the ID has to be redone to fix the above please have > the references > >section redone to split normative and non-normative > references - see the > >RFC-Editor's web page for instructions. > > > >Scott > > > _______________________________________________ > midcom mailing list > midcom@ietf.org > http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C19EB9.89DDAFF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Market share of various types of NAT's

 All,

   I think somebody raised the question = before, but does anybody have any ball-park numbers for the market = shares of the various NAT's. What're the market shares of Symmetric, = Full Cone, Port Restricted Cone and Restricted Cone in each of the = Small-Medium Enterprise, SOHO and Residential markets? Or what's the = market shares for Symmetric vs Cone types in each of these = markets?

Thanks,
Sanjoy

Nortel Networks


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melinda Shore [mailto:mshore@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:06 = AM
> To: midcom@ietf.org
> Subject: [midcom] Fwd: = draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-04.txt
>
>
> To keep you posted on progress ...
>
> >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:00:44 -0500 = (EST)
> >From: Scott  Bradner = <sob@harvard.edu>
> >To: mankin@isi.edu, mshore@cisco.com
> >Subject: = draft-ietf-midcom-requirements-04.txt
> >
> >
> >please share this with teh ID authors (and = the mailing list
> if you want to)
> >
> >the ID looks good but IETF rules require = that there be a
> section in RFCs
> >titled "Security Considerations" = -
> >
> >This can be done in this ID by having a = Security
> Considerations section that
> >says
> >   "The secrity requirements = for a midcom protocol are
> discissed in sec 2.3."
> >
> >since the ID has to be redone to fix the = above please have
> the references
> >section redone to split normative and = non-normative
> references - see the
> >RFC-Editor's web page for = instructions.
> >
> >Scott
>
>
> = _______________________________________________
> midcom mailing list
> midcom@ietf.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C19EB9.89DDAFF0-- _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 22:05:08 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA27220 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA00743 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00013; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29979 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from 3w-smtp-ac.korea.com ([211.109.1.113]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA26920 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 3W-SMTP-AG.korea.com ([172.31.1.66]) by 3w-smtp-ac.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:44:52 +0900 Received: from 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com ([211.109.1.19]) by 3W-SMTP-AG.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:44:50 +0900 Received: from phj234 ([211.244.35.163]) by 211.109.1.19 with Trend Micro InterScan Messaging Security Suite for SMTP v5; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:16:47 +0900 From: "[광고]줄광고.wo.to" To: midcom@ietf.org X-Mailer: B-E-Mailer Reply-To: phj234@yahoo.co.kr Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:16:04 +0900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3W-SMTP-AG03a5sqMaS00198423@3W-SMTP-AG.korea.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jan 2002 02:44:50.0888 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF6E3C80:01C19F00] Subject: [midcom] [광고]무료 줄광고 Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org [광고]무료 줄광고 서비스

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_______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 07:01:43 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12713 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA28710 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA28169; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA28142 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from yamato.ccrle.nec.de (yamato.ccrle.nec.de [195.37.70.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12535 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from citadel.mobility.ccrle.nec.de ([192.168.156.1]) by yamato.ccrle.nec.de (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g0HBqvH57412 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:52:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from elgar (elgar.heidelberg.ccrle.nec.de [192.168.102.180]) by citadel.mobility.ccrle.nec.de (Postfix on SuSE eMail Server 2.0) with ESMTP id DAFF6C052 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:52:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:52:27 +0100 From: Martin Stiemerling To: midcom@ietf.org Message-ID: <22820000.1011268347@elgar> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [midcom] Current Status Working Group/Re-chartering Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, The meeting minutes state something about re-chartering the WG. What is the current status of this discussion? Martin _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 09:06:28 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15720 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA03081 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02863; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02836 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15593 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id g0HE2F918407; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from spandex.cisco.com (ssh-rtp1.cisco.com [161.44.11.166]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACN13037; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:01:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020117090511.00a6de00@localhost> X-Sender: mshore@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:05:30 -0500 To: Martin Stiemerling , midcom@ietf.org From: Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [midcom] Current Status Working Group/Re-chartering In-Reply-To: <22820000.1011268347@elgar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org At 12:52 PM 1/17/02 +0100, Martin Stiemerling wrote: >The meeting minutes state something about re-chartering the WG. What is the current status of this discussion? There's not yet much to report. Melinda _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@ns.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 12:37:25 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27705 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA14605 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA14029; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13997 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27475 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id g0HHTHD20031 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from spandex.cisco.com (ssh-rtp1.cisco.com [161.44.11.166]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACN17550; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:28:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020117123024.00a789e0@localhost> X-Sender: mshore@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:32:11 -0500 To: midcom@ietf.org From: Melinda Shore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [midcom] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org I'm not sure how many people saw this, or recognized that it applies to pre-midcom. This is a draft of a document describing IAB issues with pre-midcom work, and some conditions that they'd like to see met. We're still in the process of getting the design team together but I think everybody should probably take a look at the document. Thanks, Melinda >To: IETF-Announce: ; >Cc: iab@isi.edu >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 06:29:00 -0500 >Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >This draft is a work item of the Internet Architecture Board Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : IAB Considerations for UNilateral Self-Address Fixing > (UNSAF) > Author(s) : L. Daigle > Filename : draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt > Pages : 5 > Date : 14-Jan-02 > >In order to alleviate the fundamental problem with current NA[P]T >middleboxes altering the relationship between the apparent location >and true identity of endpoints, various proposals have been made for >'UNilateral Self-Address Fixing (UNSAF)' processes. These are >processes whereby some originating process attempts to determine or >fix the address (and port) by which it is known -- e.g., to be able >to use address data in the protocol exchange, or to advertise a >public address from which it will receive connections. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <20020114175503.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt > > _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 00:31:26 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23140 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA14731 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA14270; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA14239 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22988 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjc5-9.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-9.cisco.com [171.71.163.32]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id g0I5Nej25500; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from CJ650 (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mira-sjc5-9.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id ABV34499; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:23:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Cullen Jennings" To: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:27:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020117123024.00a789e0@localhost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [midcom] Comments on draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Though I agree with the overall spirit of this draft and many of the points I have some issues with some of the assertions. Basically it is written in a form that has a slight smell of FUD about UNSAF. I have no idea where the best place to post this is so I have sent it to midcom - apologies in advance if it should go elsewhere. Where else is it being discussed? I'm sure I am going to regret sending this email, but what the heck, here are some half baked comments to get the conversation started. The draft asserts there is no inside and outside - while this may be true I'm not sure it is relevant. The various UNSAF proposal I have seen have only contemplated the case where one side of the NAT was in the public network and could easily be rewritten to say that is assumed the NAT routes packets between a public to private space and describe the UNSAF method without ever using the words inside or outside. I understand that NAT can go from private to private spaces and that UNSAF can only discover the address relative to some point in the network. However, it seems the point of UNSAF proposals is to discover the public address of the last NAT to touch the packet relative to any address in the public space. Inside and outside could be considered simply convenient terms of art to abbreviate what is meant by public and private networks spaces. I do believe it is well defined what a public address is. The statement there is no way to allow "incoming" communication through firewalls that honors the policies of the firewall does not seem true. A firewall can be configured so that HTTTP traffic arriving at port 80 is routed to the companies web server. Clearly this is "incoming" traffic thought a firewall - clearly it completely under the control of the firewall policy what happens to this traffic. On the topic of statefullness, the UNSAF pings did not create the state, they simply discovered it. The NAT created the state and if the NAT looses track of the state, the communications will fail regardless of anything to do with some UNSAF stuff going on. I imagine the "exit strategy" of any UNSAF draft will more or less be a boiler place sentence along the lines of "once IPv6 is widely deployed, and then once people decide to stop using NAT, this will no longer be used." I won't know to laugh or cry every time I read that in a draft about a "short term" solution. I don't mean to defend NAT or even endorse that we should spend time making protocols work through them but I think this draft makes it sounds like UNSAF proposal are questionable at best. If we accept NAT are here and going to stay long enough that we need to work with them, I think there are restricted cases where UNSAF could work. Cullen _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 10:17:23 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14200 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA16962 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA16410; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA16381 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:07:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-3.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-3.cisco.com [171.70.157.152]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13816 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-3.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id g0IF5Oo21125; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from spandex.cisco.com (ssh-rtp1.cisco.com [161.44.11.166]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACN48051; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:04:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020118100346.00aa5c60@localhost> X-Sender: mshore@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:08:38 -0500 To: "Cullen Jennings" , From: Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [midcom] Comments on draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020117123024.00a789e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org At 09:27 PM 1/17/02 -0800, Cullen Jennings wrote: >I have no idea where the >best place to post this is so I have sent it to midcom - apologies in >advance if it should go elsewhere. I think it's useful to discuss it here, but it is an IAB document, not a midcom document. >I imagine the "exit strategy" of any UNSAF draft will more or less be a >boiler place sentence along the lines of "once IPv6 is widely deployed, and >then once people decide to stop using NAT, this will no longer be used." It would be nice to see a mention of midcom in there. I am quite concerned about the pre-midcom work undermining midcom, and I think that needs to be considered. >If we accept NAT are here and going >to stay long enough that we need to work with them, I think there are >restricted cases where UNSAF could work. Part of our charge in the pre-midcom work, coming from the IAB, is to document those restricted cases. Melinda Software longa, hardware brevis _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Jan 19 13:16:52 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21054 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA13664 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13109; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:59:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13078 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com (203186155190.ctinets.com [203.186.155.190]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA20884 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:59:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Reply-To: leave-hk11-167300E@cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com From: SnS_team@sweet-n-sour.com To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:10:58 +0800 Organization: Hi-Tech Development Co., Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [midcom] SnS e-Daily - Hong Kong, Sun, Jan 20, 2002 - Building Bridges for 20000 e-Professionals Worldwide... 24 x 7! Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: midcom@ietf.org SnS e-Daily is a free e-newsletter sent to over 20000 e-Professionals worldwide. It provides street-wise, street-side insight on the latest news in global business, upcoming events, lifestyle, exclusive member discounts...and much, much more! To join, please: mailto:members@s-n-s.com To stop receiving our email, please scroll down to the bottom of this newsletter. Thank you. 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Thank you for your continuing support. Sincerely, the SnS Team Please visit our web site www.s-n-s.com to learn more about us. To request advertising rates, please mailto:b2b@s-n-s.com To subscribe to SnS e-Daily, please mailto:members@s-n-s.com To submit improvement ideas, please mailto:feedback@s-n-s.com For other inquiries, please mailto:customerservice@s-n-s.com 1997 - 2002 Hi-Tech Development Co., Ltd. All rights reserved. --- This email was sent to: midcom@ietf.org To stop receiving our SnS e-Daily, please reply to leave-hk11-167300E@cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com with a blank email. Thank you. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 13:13:51 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14445 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA23222 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23144; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23114 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com (203186155190.ctinets.com [203.186.155.190]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA14393 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:10:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Reply-To: leave-hk11-167300E@cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com From: SnS_team@sweet-n-sour.com To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:07:16 +0800 Organization: Hi-Tech Development Co., Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [midcom] SnS e-Daily - Hong Kong, Mon, Jan 21, 2002 - Building Bridges for 20000 e-Professionals Worldwide... 24 x 7! Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: midcom@ietf.org SnS e-Daily is a free e-newsletter sent to over 20000 e-Professionals worldwide. It provides street-wise, street-side insight on the latest news in global business, upcoming events, lifestyle, exclusive member discounts...and much, much more! To join, please: mailto:members@s-n-s.com To stop receiving our email, please scroll down to the bottom of this newsletter. Thank you. Welcome to SnS e-Daily - Hong Kong, Mon, Jan 21, 2002 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Please click at the link below for today's edition http://vanilla.sweet-n-sour.com/edaily_01212002.htm AOL users click here Back up copy of today's edition http://www.hi-tech.com.hk/edaily_01212002.htm AOL users click here \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ In Today's Edition:- 1. Announcement 2. Hong Kong - play, seminar, musical, dim sum roundtable, mandarin roundtable, item sought 3. Singapore - drama 4. San Diego, CA, USA - business seminar 5. Irvine, CA, USA - business seminar 6. Westlake Village, CA, USA - new media networking 7. Chicago, IL, USA - networking 8. London, England - seminar Editor's Note:- If you would like to receive our SnS e-Daily in html format, please email us at customerservice@s-n-s.com. Thank you for your continuing support. Sincerely, the SnS Team Please visit our web site www.s-n-s.com to learn more about us. To request advertising rates, please mailto:b2b@s-n-s.com To subscribe to SnS e-Daily, please mailto:members@s-n-s.com To submit improvement ideas, please mailto:feedback@s-n-s.com For other inquiries, please mailto:customerservice@s-n-s.com 1997 - 2002 Hi-Tech Development Co., Ltd. All rights reserved. --- This email was sent to: midcom@ietf.org To stop receiving our SnS e-Daily, please reply to leave-hk11-167300E@cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com with a blank email. Thank you. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 20:04:20 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18082 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA03250 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02771; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02742 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from server.cianet.com.br (IDENT:squid@server.cianet.com.br [200.195.133.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA18037 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:59:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201210059.TAA18037@ietf.org> From: Free Computer To: midcom@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:58:47 -0500 Subject: [midcom] WOW!! 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_______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 10:09:03 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11700 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA11355 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA09876; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA09833 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com (203186155190.ctinets.com [203.186.155.190]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA11001 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:47:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-ListManager-type: unsub-conf-req From: "ListManager" Reply-To: "ListManager" To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:10:34 +0800 Subject: [midcom] Your confirmation is needed (ok 167300) Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Your email address 'midcom@ietf.org' has been submitted to be unsubscribed from the 'hk11' mailing list. 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Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:10:33 +0800 Received: from netadmin2 (go2call-99.go2call.com [216.52.157.99]) by smtp01.go2call.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g0LElUI20214 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:47:30 -0600 From: "Ajay K Garg" To: Subject: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:52:43 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 eJ8+IiwOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANIHAQAVAAIABQAAAAEA9wAB A5AGAKgDAAAeAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAAIBcQAB AAAAFgAAAAHBolJuI/LaEhWw+EP2nO9mTrS/KWIAAAIBHQwBAAAAFwAAAFNNVFA6QUdBUkdAR08y Q0FMTC5DT00AAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgAem1JSosEBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFmhy3Tg30lMrj2+ PMNzJV/CgAAACwAfDgAAAAALAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAA4AIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAHgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAACdqAQAe AAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA5LjAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AC4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAA AAAAAAAeAAyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAACwANgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAALADqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAPIAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwA9gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAA AAALAFKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAMAU4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA AAGFAAAAAAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAAWaHLdODfSUyuPb48w3MlXwIB+g8BAAAAEAAAAFmhy3Tg30lM rj2+PMNzJV8CAfsPAQAAAJ8AAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAA AAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABDOlxEb2N1bWVudHMgYW5kIFNldHRpbmdzXGFnYXJnLkdPMkNB TExcTG9jYWwgU2V0dGluZ3NcQXBwbGljYXRpb24gRGF0YVxNaWNyb3NvZnRcT3V0bG9va1xvdXRs b29rLnBzdAAAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00/TcAAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADxFSkVNS09ETk9ISk5BSUFITUZJ QUFFT0lEREFBLmFnYXJnQGdvMmNhbGwuY29tPgAAAAB2nQ== _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 10:13:42 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11856 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:13:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA11657 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11069; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com (203186155190.ctinets.com [203.186.155.190]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA11039 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:05:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-ListManager-type: unsubscribed From: "ListManager" Reply-To: "ListManager" To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:25:53 +0800 Subject: [midcom] Re: your unsubscribe request Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org As you requested and confirmed, you have been unsubscribed from 'hk11'. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 10:26:26 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12335 for ; 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Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA15880 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:29:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15800; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15770 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cooldude.sweet-n-sour.com (203186155190.ctinets.com [203.186.155.190]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15266 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:24:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-ListManager-type: unsubscribed From: "ListManager" Reply-To: "ListManager" To: midcom@ietf.org Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:47:35 +0800 Subject: [midcom] Re: your unsubscribe request Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org As you requested and confirmed, you have been unsubscribed from 'hk11'. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@ns.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 14:24:07 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06369 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA06463 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05968; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05938 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from NS1.US.PRSERV.NET ([64.180.246.83]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05871 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: sydney@vkistudios.org Message-Id: <200201221917.OAA05871@ietf.org> Reply-To: seo@vkistudios.org To: midcom@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:21:04 -0800 Subject: [midcom] ADV: Professional Internet Marketing Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org Professional Internet Marketing, VKI Studios 1-866-733-8899
1-866-733-8899 

 

_______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@ns.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 15:34:40 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09342 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA11533 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11475; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11448 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleitus.hosting.swbell.net (cleitus.hosting.swbell.net [216.100.99.4]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09274 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pti-inc.com (ppp-64-216-222-113.dialup.stlsmo.swbell.net [64.216.222.113]) by cleitus.hosting.swbell.net id PAA09972; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:31:50 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200201222031.PAA09972@cleitus.hosting.swbell.net> Date: 22 Jan 02 13:08:30 -0600 From: "Heather Wilson" To: Subject: [midcom] Adv: Semiconductor Training Short Courses Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org PTI Seminars is presenting the following courses for semiconductor personnel.... For more details call 636-343-1333 and ask for Heather Wilson. ABCs of IC DESIGN & FABRICATION - Presented by: Denny Frye http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/icdesignfab.html February 20, 2002 San Jose, CA March 11, 2002 Portland, OR March 18, 2002 Singapore April 9, 2002 Boston, MA April 19, 2002 Munich, Germany April 30, 2002 Phoenix, AZ This course describes in simple terms a sequential format of information that constitutes the major fabrication processes and design for integrated devices. This one (1) day seminar gives you a comprehensive overview of the semiconductor industry & technology. The course will give you the background you need to understand the basics of semiconductor devices, how they work, the processing technologies & equipment to produce them, and circuit design techniques. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ABCs of BASIC ELECTRONICS AND DEVICES http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/basicmain.html March 18, 2002 San Jose, CA ADVANCED TOPICS IN CMP Chemical Mechanical Planarization http://www.pti-inc.com/coursesadvanced/advancedcmp.html March 21-22, 2002 San Jose, CA DEFECT ISOLATION for MULTI LEVEL FAILURE ANALYSIS http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/defectisolation.html March 25-26, 2002 San Jose, CA DEVICE PHYSICS MADE EASY http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/physics.html April 8, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamentals of CHEMICAL MECHANICAL PROCESSING Presented by: Srini Raghavan http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/cmpmain.html March 6, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamentals of CHEMICAL VAPOR DEPOSITION http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/cvdmain.html April 3, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamentals of ION IMPLANTATION http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/ionmain.html April 2, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamentals of MEMS DESIGN & FABRICATION http://www.pti-inc.com/coursesadvanced/memsic.html April 10, 2002 San Jose, CA July 24, 2002 San Francisco, CA Fundamentals of METALLIZATION http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/metalmain.html April 4, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamental RF Plasma Generation for Semiconductor Equipment http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/rfequipment.html April 4, 2002 San Jose, CA July 24-25, 2002 San Francisco, CA Fundamentals of WET & DRY ETCH http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/etchmain.html March 7, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamentals of PHOTOLITHOGRAPHY http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/photomain.html March 19, 2002 San Jose, CA Fundamentals of THERMAL PROCESSING http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/diffmain.html March 12, 2002 San Jose, CA INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY STRATEGIES for SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY COMPANIES http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/intellectual.html February 18-19, 2002 San Jose, CA July 24-25, 2002 San Francisco, CA Intro to CMOS LAYOUT http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/cmos.html May 6-7, 2002 San Jose, CA Intro to DIGITAL SIGNAL PROCESSING http://www.pti-inc.com/coursesadvanced/dsp.html April 24-26, 2002 San Jose, CA Intro to MICRO CONTAMINATION CONTROL http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/contamain.html March 21, 2002 San Jose, CA Intro to Optical MEMS for Bio Sensing and Communications http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/mems.html April 11, 2002 San Jose, CA Intro to INTEGRATED YIELD MANAGEMENT http://www.pti-inc.com/coursesadvanced/yieldmanagement.html March 4-5, 2002 San Jose, CA April 18-19, 2002 Munich, Germany May 6-7, 2002 Singapore Intro to STATISTICAL PROCESSING CONTROL (SPC) http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/spc.html April 9, 2002 San Jose, CA LOW COST FLIP CHIP & WLCSP TECHNOLOGIES http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/flipchip.html April 8, 2002 San Jose, CA April 15, 2002 Munich, Germany May 9, 2002 Singapore July 19, 2002 San Francisco, CA PRODUCT MARKETING for the Semiconductor Industry http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/productmarketing.html February 27, 2002 San Jose, CA April 18, 2002 Munich, Germany RF WIRELESS FUNDAMENTALS http://www.pti-inc.com/courses/rfwireless.html February 25-26, 2002 San Jose, CA CHECK OUR WEB SITE FOR ADDITIONAL COURSES !! http://www.ptiseminars.com For a FULL TRAINING SCHEDULE of "open" course dates visit http://www.pti-inc.com/schedule.htm TO REGISTER Go To https://secure.hosting.swbell.net/www.pti-inc.com/registration.html TO SPEAK: * to an account manager about ATTENDING these courses or having them ONSITE contact us at (636) 343-1333 in the USA. Ask for HEATHER WILSON. * Fax (636) 343-8642 * Email: heather@pti-inc.com PTI SEMINARS, INC. "We Exceed Your Expectations!" * To unsubscribe please reply to heather@pti-inc.com and in the subject "Unsubscribe". We apologize for any inconvenience. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 02:55:43 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17137 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id CAA16466 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:55:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA16406; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA16379 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([211.117.232.146]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA17111 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:53:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201240753.CAA17111@ietf.org> Reply-To: office7000@yahoo.co.kr From: 창업정보 To: midcom@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:53:15 +0900 Subject: [midcom] [광고] 돈 되는 사업정보입니다 Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org 귀하의 창업을 돕겠습니다.

 

 귀하의 창업을 돕겠습니다.  

 저희 (주)나래정보에서는 전화정보 창업자를 모십니다.

 본  사업소에서 보유한 아이템을 드릴수도 있습니다.

귀하께서 계획하신 아이템을 수익성 있는 사업으로 만들어 드리겠습니다.

수년간의 기술과 노하우로 최선을 다하며, 고객의 이익과 사업의 발전을 위해 노력하는 기업으로

귀하의 곁에 끝까지 남겠습니다.

전화정보(700, 060, 800, 0600)특징

  1. 특별한 자격을 요하지 않습니다.(사업자 등록증 필요)

  2. 수금의 필요성이 없습니다.(각 통신사 수금대행)

  3. 타 사업보다 운영과 관리가 편리합니다.(전화로 관리가능)

  4. 귀하만의 노하우로 정보를 제공합니다.(아이템제공)

  5. 사업성 타당여부 조사.(시장성 조사 대행)

  6. 창업자금지원.(창업자금의 50%지원, 수익금 창출후에 수금)

  7. 사업의 지속성.(시스템 본사 관리. 사업자는 기획과 광고)

  8. 사업의 안전성.(한국통신, 하나로통신, 데이콤등과 연계하여 사업영위)

  9. 본사의 지원.((주)나래에서 사업자등록신청, 시스템제작, 운영, 관리)

 10. 장비임대.(금3,100,000원으로 장비일체와 프로그램을 제공합니다.)

 

"광고메일대행"  링크해주세요  

가장 빠른 광고효과입니다. 빠른 시간안에 확실한 효과를 보실수 있습니다. 이보다  뛰어난 광고효과를 기대할 수 없습니다. 저희 회원에 한하여 후불로 결재 받습니다.
 
                    

 귀하의 메일주소는 웹서핑중, http://www.xxxxxxxx.com/
에서 알게 된것이며, E-Mail 주소 외에, 다른 정보는 갖고 있지 않습니다.
정통부 권고사항에 의거 제목에 [광고]라고 표기한 메일입니다. 원치 않으면 ,수신거부를 눌러주세요

           

 

_______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 18:43:45 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11361 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA11230 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10979; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10948 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from hutmail.com ([61.79.57.41]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA11280 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:38:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201282338.SAA11280@ietf.org> Reply-To: turbozetq@hutmail.com From: Lee To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:36:52 +0900 X-User: 2.6-hkilfmmu-hojlnt-Ffkiq Subject: [midcom] [광고]최고의 홍보데이터입니다. Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org


안녕하십니까? 메일데이터를 저렴한 가격에 드립니다. 관심없으시면 메일을 삭제해 주십시오.
본 메일은 정보통신부 권고사항에 의거하여 제목에 [광고]라 표시된 메일입니다.
본 내용은 스팸메일의 유형에 아무것도 속하지 않습니다.(피라미드, 행운의편지, 성인관련홍보 등)
또한 각 사이트의 공개게시판에서 임의추출한 것이므로 귀하의 신용정보와 아무런 연관이 없습니다.

프로그램으로 추출하여 작업한 메일데이터의 특징은 다음과 같습니다.
다음우표제? 안심하십시오. 철저한 작업으로 한메일이 없습니다. (한메일 포함된 것도 있음)
중복메일? 안심하십시오. 중복메일이 없습니다. 수신거부에 편리합니다.
통합? 편리하게 사용하시도록 똑같은 개수로 나누었습니다.
가격? 저렴합니다. 비싸지 않습니다.
호환? 한줄에 하나씩, 그리고 TXT로 저장되어 있습니다.
          어떤 프로그램과도 호환가능합니다.

...등등의 장점이 있습니다.
드라마틱한 홍보를 위한 필수데이터! 이런 기회는 다시오지 않습니다.
사이트를 참고해 주십시오. 건전한 용도로 쓰지 않는 분에게 판매하지 않으며,
각종 이용용도를 접수후, 엄선하여 몇분에게만 판매합니다.

move.to/adver   come.to/adver
adver.ce.ro      adver.pe.ky
adver.ox.ro       

접속이 느리면 adver2.(ce.ro / pe.ky / ox.ro)로 접속해 주십시오.
공지없이 중단되면 adver3, adver4, 5...이렇게 접속하시면 됩니다.
이유없이 사이트를 비방, 방해하는 사람에게 손해배상을 요구합니다.
본 사이트는 회사나 기업이 아닙니다. 오해마시길 바랍니다.
또한 본 메일은 사용자의 편의를 위해 절대 한번이상 발송하지 않습니다.
따라서 수신거부하실 필요가 없습니다.
문의사항 있으시면 메일주십시오.

_______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 09:23:55 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA20013 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA28810 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28285; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28260 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA19335 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id g0UEDVI05793 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from spandex.cisco.com (ssh-rtp1.cisco.com [161.44.11.166]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACR14381; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:11:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020130091606.00aac730@localhost> X-Sender: mshore@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:16:50 -0500 To: midcom@ietf.org From: Melinda Shore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement Sender: midcom-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: midcom-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: X-BeenThere: midcom@ietf.org In the interest of moving the pre-midcom work along quickly, we've formed a small design team to produce drafts of two documents for consideration by the working group. Those two documents are 1) the STUN protocol, and 2) a protocol to allow servers behind NATs to accept incoming connections. The design team members are Ram Dantu, Steve Davies, Jonathan Rosenberg, Sanjoy Sen, and Mahadev Somasundaram. We've put together a small, closed design team in response to time pressures - we need to complete the work quickly, and it was clear from the existing discussions that that wasn't likely to happen if we kept the initial work on the mailing list. It's important to understand that the product of a design team is input to the working group, not the final product. That is to say that they will be producing a proposal which may be accepted, rejected, or modified by the working group. I've appended a copy of a statement from Harald Alvestrand regarding the role of design teams within the IETF. Right now we're working towards having the STUN document through working group last call by the end of February. We don't yet have a date for the second document, but we'll keep you posted as it becomes clearer. Note that both documents must address the issues raised in the IAB's UNSAF draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-unsaf-considerations-00.txt). Thanks, Melinda ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Design teams are mentioned in The Working Group Guidelines RFC (RFC 2418) as follows: 6.5. Design teams It is often useful, and perhaps inevitable, for a sub-group of a working group to develop a proposal to solve a particular problem. Such a sub-group is called a design team. In order for a design team to remain small and agile, it is acceptable to have closed membership and private meetings. Design teams may range from an informal chat between people in a hallway to a formal set of expert volunteers that the WG chair or AD appoints to attack a controversial problem. The output of a design team is always subject to approval, rejection or modification by the WG as a whole. The key point here is that the output of a design team is input to a working group, not a final document. Such a document must not be considered as more important than any other input to the working group. Anyone can write an alternative proposal and ask the working group to consider it. The decision on which document to work further on must be made by the consensus of the working group. If design teams work as intended, their output will be of a quality that speaks for itself. Working group chairs should note that there is a potential of anti-trust liability if a design team is formed with a restricted membership and then the output is given priority over other input to the process. Any time the Working Group decides to form a design team: - it must have a clear terse mission statement that must be posted on the working group mailing list. - the membership of the design team must also be public and posted to the mailing list. - any design team that lasts for more than a few months should make regular public reports on what they are doing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This note was edited for the IESG by Scott Bradner. _______________________________________________ midcom mailing list midcom@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 11:00:00 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00830 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA27370 for midcom-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27016; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA26978 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:56:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ffm163.dekundenserver.de ([62.26.119.240]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA00630 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 22858 invoked by uid 30); 31 Jan 2002 15:54:32 -0000 Date: 31 Jan 2002 15:54:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20020131155432.22857.qmail@ffm163.dekundenserver.de> To: midcom@alltel.net, midcom@earthlink.net, midcom@excite.com, midcom@ietf.org, midcom@iloft.com From: Jenny@yahoo.com () Subject: [midcom] I thought you would wanna see this ummm.. 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