From notifications-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 07 08:11:50 2006 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6SdK-00056b-EB; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:11:50 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6SdB-00054I-EH for notifications@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:11:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA23996 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from msa.uoa.gr ([195.134.100.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6SpO-0007jX-Ur for notifications@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:24:20 -0500 Received: by MSA with id 9644AC95A9E61D4102AD9E9BEE1C59A2E65DD1C1 Received: from null.noc.uoa.gr (null.noc.uoa.gr [195.134.100.40]) (authenticated bits=0) by msa.uoa.gr (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k17DBBmS002855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:11:12 +0200 (EET) From: Alexandros Vellis To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20060207110513.GA10924@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <20060207110513.GA10924@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: National & Kapodistrian University of Athens Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:11:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1139317905.5030.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UoAMSAId: 9644AC95A9E61D4102AD9E9BEE1C59A2E65DD1C1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: notifications@ietf.org Subject: [Notifications] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-notify-02.txt X-BeenThere: notifications@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Message Notifications interest group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: notifications-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: notifications-bounces@ietf.org [Cc: ing notifications list] On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 12:05 +0100, Michael Haardt wrote: > I suggest that allowed modifications MUST or at least SHOULD be > documented. > > Usage: valid_notif_method > > Of course that is real easy to implement, but it is also real ugly. > There is nothing I know of else in Sieve that checks certain options > of actions for validity. I still suggest a generic extension for > exception handling. I don't know about generic exception handling, but wouldn't it make more sense, in this particular case, that the available notifications are present in the capabilities of the Sieve server? So, just as IMAP4 Capability responds with a set such as AUTH=DIGEST-MD5 AUTH=ANONYMOUS or THREAD=ORDEREDSUBJECT THREAD=REFERENCES, a Sieve server could respond with "notify notifymethod=mailto notifymethod=xmpp", or something similar. For a client implementation that has no idea what is suppored on the server, this would be ideal. It will also save my client implementation from an extra configuration option. :) > Since we broke compatibility with the original draft, I repeat my > point of view to remove ":method" and change its argument to an > argument of "notify", as in: > > notify "mailto:0123456789@sms.example.net"; Good idea. I think that the current plan is a bit awkward. The Cyrus implementation uses the :options field to define the email address: notify :method "mailto" :options "foo@example.org" draft-ietf-sieve-notify-xmpp on the other hand uses the :method for the entire destination: notify :method "xmpp:romeo@example.com" How about a 'target' option, or as you suggest, no option at all, and a general plan to use existing URLs defined in other documents. For instance: * mailto URI: :target "mailto:foo@example.org?subject=Mail%20Notification" *XMPP URI according to draft-saintandre-xmpp-iri :target "xmpp:romeo@example.com" * SMS URI according to http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wilde-sms-uri-10.txt : :target "sms:+41796431851;pid=smtp:erik.wilde@dret.net" * tel: URI according to RFC3966. Could probably leave a preconfigured, implementation-specific voice mail message: :target "tel:+306999999999" And so on. -- Alexandros Vellis avel@noc.uoa.gr _______________________________________________ Notifications mailing list Notifications@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/notifications From notifications-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 08 13:43:10 2006 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6uHW-0003ti-Oi; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:43:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6uHT-0003pW-Vb for notifications@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:43:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20480 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6uU6-00004t-9t for notifications@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:56:12 -0500 Received: from [172.16.1.198] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (submission) with ESMTPA; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:42:38 +0000 Message-ID: <43EA3B9D.2030202@isode.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:42:37 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexandros Vellis Subject: Re: [Notifications] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-notify-02.txt References: <20060207110513.GA10924@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <1139317905.5030.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1139317905.5030.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, notifications@ietf.org X-BeenThere: notifications@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Message Notifications interest group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: notifications-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: notifications-bounces@ietf.org Alexandros Vellis wrote: >On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 12:05 +0100, Michael Haardt wrote: > >>I suggest that allowed modifications MUST or at least SHOULD be >>documented. >> >> Usage: valid_notif_method >> >>Of course that is real easy to implement, but it is also real ugly. >>There is nothing I know of else in Sieve that checks certain options >>of actions for validity. I still suggest a generic extension for >>exception handling. >> >> > >I don't know about generic exception handling, but wouldn't it make more >sense, in this particular case, that the available notifications are >present in the capabilities of the Sieve server? > >So, just as IMAP4 Capability responds with a set such as AUTH=DIGEST-MD5 >AUTH=ANONYMOUS or THREAD=ORDEREDSUBJECT THREAD=REFERENCES, a Sieve >server could respond with "notify notifymethod=mailto >notifymethod=xmpp", or something similar. > If you are talking about ManageSieve protocol (draft-martin-managesieve), then draft-ietf-sieve-notify-02.txt already has text describing relevant capability. _______________________________________________ Notifications mailing list Notifications@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/notifications From notifications-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 08 21:27:31 2006 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F71Wt-0006uQ-SX; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:27:31 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6T18-0004aR-MC for notifications@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:36:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25637 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mout2.freenet.de ([194.97.50.155]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6TDK-0008Tb-0k for notifications@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:49:03 -0500 Received: from [194.97.50.138] (helo=mx0.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1F6T0k-000848-AX; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:36:02 +0100 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx0.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.61 #21) id 1F6T0k-0004b0-6p; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:36:02 +0100 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.61 #60) id 1F6T0j-0007mx-8Q; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:36:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:36:01 +0100 From: Michael Haardt To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: [Notifications] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-notify-02.txt Message-ID: <20060207133601.GA26287@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <20060207110513.GA10924@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <1139317905.5030.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1139317905.5030.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:27:31 -0500 Cc: notifications@ietf.org X-BeenThere: notifications@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Message Notifications interest group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: notifications-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: notifications-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:11:44PM +0200, Alexandros Vellis wrote: > > I suggest that allowed modifications MUST or at least SHOULD be > > documented. > > > > Usage: valid_notif_method > > > > Of course that is real easy to implement, but it is also real ugly. > > There is nothing I know of else in Sieve that checks certain options > > of actions for validity. I still suggest a generic extension for > > exception handling. > > I don't know about generic exception handling, but wouldn't it make more > sense, in this particular case, that the available notifications are > present in the capabilities of the Sieve server? I am not sure if you talk about managesieve or a new capability test, but anyway: If the method consists of variables, you can not test the method when installing a script. Although I think "if you write code that shoots in your foot, then suffer", I must admit that a script really shouldn't cause an error just because of a notification, and simply ignoring all notification errors is awkward, too. So we do need some way to deal with errors, both semantic and runtime errors. The "valid_notif_method" addresses semantic errors and we decided that "notify" should never cause runtime errors. In a way, notifications are remotely similar to "fileinto + redirect". We have no facility to check a redirect address, and I am not asking for valid_redirect_recipient, although it would be easy to implement. I am asking for a generic way to solve the problem. try { notify "sms:NaN"; } catch { } Yes, that's a can of worms and possibly not a good idea at all, but I see a need for _some_ generic solution and that's all I can think of right now. > Good idea. I think that the current plan is a bit awkward. The Cyrus > implementation uses the :options field to define the email address: > > notify :method "mailto" :options "foo@example.org" Well, the notify draft changed a lot (IMHO, for the better) and was probably never widely employed. I don't expect agreement upon implementations a few days after the latest draft. :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Notifications mailing list Notifications@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/notifications From notifications-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 09 06:03:13 2006 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F79Zx-0007GH-1b; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:03:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F79Zr-0007FU-Bo for notifications@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:03:11 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09580 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 06:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F79mT-0002Wf-Ln for notifications@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:16:12 -0500 Received: from [172.16.1.198] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (submission) with ESMTPA; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:02:14 +0000 Message-ID: <43EB212E.1030906@isode.com> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:02:06 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark E. Mallett" Subject: Re: [Notifications] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-notify-02.txt References: <20060207110513.GA10924@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <1139317905.5030.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060207133601.GA26287@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <20060208195339.GI71624@osmium.mv.net> In-Reply-To: <20060208195339.GI71624@osmium.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Michael Haardt , notifications@ietf.org X-BeenThere: notifications@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Message Notifications interest group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: notifications-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: notifications-bounces@ietf.org Mark E. Mallett wrote: >BTW I also agree that the ":method" tag is superflous and would prefer >to see the method as a positional argument. An empty string could indicate >the site-default method, or one could even use "default:" . > Ok, we will do that in the next revision. > >BTW what happened to the ":attributes" thing? Did this get shot down? > No, Barry and I didn't have time to add it back :-). _______________________________________________ Notifications mailing list Notifications@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/notifications