From off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 04 22:41:55 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVJBG-0004gl-MF; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:41:50 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVJBF-0004gd-Lc for off-path-bof@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:41:49 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVJBF-0007qT-Gi for off-path-bof@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:41:49 -0400 Received: from [58.186.214.218] (helo=LEHUYLUONG) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVJBA-0005ha-RM for off-path-bof@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:41:49 -0400 Message-ID: <73270805642916.1932194E50@GUOUDB2> From: "autocorrelate" To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:40:23 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Thread-Index: gDLQNkDmIeWICmheQ7MqSaPBgsYhRMhrrbcN X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8aa7cbc518894eb04182283f0682f662 Subject: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Using this will be a rocking success X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1375270837==" Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org --===============1375270837== Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A8_5459783B.B92A8E91" ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_5459783B.B92A8E91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If he fails to lead them into the tournament against Andorra, Croatia, Estonia, FYRThey have now won the competition four times, one fewer than Brazil, and it was the

was sent off after 62 minutes for a stamp on Ricardo Carvalho.

Bill has has taught computer science at the undergraduate and graduate levels.modernization program has made it a rare find indeed for those lucky enough to occupy it.

of the tournament to add to its illustrious squad, who would it choose?around deliriously whenever his team found the back of the net - 14 times in all,
Costa Rica when Philipp Lahm cut in from the left and curled a beauty into the topno-one can blame them if their team loses.

decide if the Chelsea man should make way for Owen Hargreaves, who was anthe globe can watch them express their talent on the biggest stage of all.
McClaren should also send 17-year-old Theo Walcott back to school with Arsenal.Paul Robinson clambered across to save.
failings in a busy restaurant - not realising I was sitting next to Michael Carrick'sThe same can be said of the bigger teams - the Brazilians, the Argentines.
How to make England's gifted midfield work - and decide whether Lampard and Gerrard can play together?The 2006 Fifa World Cup drew to a close on Sunday with Italy claiming their fourth
Fact sheet -America: Helping the People of SudanGoals dried up and players stopped shooting from 30 yards, preferring instead to pass

appointment by bringing a national sporting icon on board.

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off-path-bof@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 07:32:43 -0400 Received: from exchfenlb-2.cs.cornell.edu ([128.84.97.34] helo=exchfe2.cs.cornell.edu) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVRT0-0004v1-Ly for off-path-bof@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 07:32:43 -0400 Received: from EXCHANGE2.cs.cornell.edu ([128.84.96.44]) by exchfe2.cs.cornell.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:32:40 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:32:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1158646129.2966.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Sorry about the spam... Thread-Index: AcbbsgarUl+ZRzteRZOoYqC+XjxFSgMv9v3g From: "Paul Francis" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2006 11:32:40.0564 (UTC) FILETIME=[F75CCB40:01C6E871] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Subject: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Sorry about the spam... X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org I've "fixed" it...now only members can post. PF _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof From off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 08 17:29:23 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWgD5-00069d-Ix; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:29:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWgD4-00069V-0i; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:29:22 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWgD1-0007HS-H5; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:29:21 -0400 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-71-106-227-203.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.106.227.203]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k98LSxkw015028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 8 Oct 2006 14:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) References: <24CCCC428EFEA2469BF046DB3C7A8D2219A6AD@namail5.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <290F4125-9E15-4414-B194-90CCF00696B3@isi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aaron Falk Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 14:28:58 -0700 To: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: falk@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Cc: Internet Steering Group , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org OFFPATH/EMMERG folks- See the proposal below to re-scope the P2PRG to be tied to a (proposed) IETF P2P-SIP working group. Are there any issues of overlap or conflict the (proposed) IRTF EMMERG RG? It's OK for RGs to have overlapping scope but it's not good to unnecessarily fracture the community. P2PRG- The current draft EMMERG charter can be found here: http:// www.irtf.org/chairfiles/emmerg-charter-v5a.txt. --aaron Begin forwarded message: > From: "Henry Sinnreich" > Date: October 2, 2006 2:31:01 PM PDT > To: "John Buford" , "Samrat > Bhattacharjee" , , > > Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RG participation. > > John Buford writes: > >> the most likely scenario to re-activate it would be to couple it >> directly to P2P-SIP, which is having its second BOF soon (San Diego > IETF). > > I believe this is a very constructive proposal. Since new P2P > protocols > are still emerging and their research is out of scope for the proposed > P2P SIP WG, the P2P RG could provide a very effective support by > taking > on the research topics that can support P2P SIP. > > Examples of topics of interest include such as: > > - Neighbor node discovery based on latency, > - Overlays for range queries, for example searching by last name, > - Overlays for searching by attribute (location, business, etc.), > - Addressing the security vulnerabilities on overlays for P2P SIP, > - Hierarchical overlays, > - etc., > > We can almost promise there will be no shortage of challenges :-) > > Thanks, Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Buford [mailto:buford@research.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:45 PM > To: Samrat Bhattacharjee; p2prg@ietf.org; byeager@fastmail.fm > Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RG participation. > > > Active RGs seem to have one or more > of the following characteristics: > 1. the RG is coupled to a specific WG (e.g. HIP) > 2. the work is closely related to the historical > activity of the IETF so that there is a critical > mass of interested researchers already in the IETF > to participate > 3. the research topic hasn't reached a scale where > it has its own conference forums outside IETF > 4. the chair(s) own/drive/energize the RG activities > to a large extent > 5. there is a sizeable commercial motivation for > research & subsequent standardization of a network > protocol problem space > > Regarding P2P as an RG: > 1. there is no coupling yet, possibly P2P-SIP > might be in the future, and P2P-SIP parties made > requests at Dallas P2PRG meeting for support > 2. P2P is an area which has no standardization > history in IETF to draw from > 3. P2P has many conferences, and most researchers > seem to prefer the peer-review process, recognition and > collaboration in those venues > 4. this might succeed, but doesn't seem to be a preferred > model. the extended efforts of Bill & Bobby should > be noted and are certainly appreciated by many. > 5. most p2p systems have been closed protocols > which have succeeeded without standardization and > related research. > > In the long run it seems that something like P2PRG > will be needed and important for the IETF. > > In the near term, the most likely scenario to re-activate > it would be to couple it directly to P2P-SIP, which is having > its second BOF soon. The best time to work that > out would be if and after its charter is approved. > > The general idea would be 1) to scope the RG > charter so that it addresses specific open issues > that are outside of the WG charter, (e.g, decentralized > security) > 2) survey the P2P-SIP WG and P2P RG to see how many people > would actively work on IDs for these open issues. > 3) have some type of active cross-over coordination between > RG and WG, as in HIP RG/WG, and one or more "owner" > individuals who want to drive the RG work. > > Regarding the P2PRG service discovery subgroup I hope > to continue that work if the RG continues. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Samrat Bhattacharjee [mailto:bobby@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:18 PM > To: p2prg@ietf.org > Cc: byeager@fastmail.fm > Subject: [P2Prg] RG participation. > > > > Hello... > > Our research group has been dormant for some time now, and the IRTF > chair (cc'ed) has enquired if it makes sense to continue the P2P-RG. > It is clear that all who are members here are working on their own P2P > research; however, the RG has not (yet) been quite the forum for > exchanging ideas that we had initially hoped. This is not to take > away from the work that the RG has already produced, however, lately, > there does not seem to be much activity, and this is of concern. > > Bottom line: Should we still keep this RG open? If you have a > strong opinion one way or another, please drop us a line. > > Note that silence implies that we recommend to the IRTF that the RG be > shut down, so if you are in favor of continuing this group, please > include some ideas on how to generate more research activity. > > Thanks. > > Bill and Bobby > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof From off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 08 18:18:41 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWgyi-0002lz-PO; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 18:18:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWgyh-0002lX-Id; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 18:18:35 -0400 Received: from exprod6og54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.189]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWgxF-0007s6-KB; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 18:17:13 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob54.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:14:28 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k98MC6nN013062; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe2.corp.adobe.com (fe2.corp.adobe.com [10.8.192.72]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k98MEG4Z017724; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from namail5.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.192.88]) by fe2.corp.adobe.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:14:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:11:41 -0700 Message-ID: <24CCCC428EFEA2469BF046DB3C7A8D2214118C@namail5.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <290F4125-9E15-4414-B194-90CCF00696B3@isi.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. Thread-Index: AcbrINT7suUL5+edTS65w9QuTzyAPwABIvog From: "Henry Sinnreich" To: "Aaron Falk" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2006 22:14:16.0912 (UTC) FILETIME=[18369500:01C6EB27] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Cc: Eunsoo Shim , Internet Steering Group , Dean Willis , p2prg@ietf.org, Alan Johnston , "Henning G. Schulzrinne" X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Thanks Aaron! >re-scope the P2PRG to be tied to a (proposed) IETF P2P-SIP working group The background and I-Ds for the P2P SIP work on the IETF can be found at http://www.p2psip.org=20 I have taken the liberty to copy some folks preparing the way to charter the P2P SIP WK after the BOF in San Diego. Thanks again, Henry -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Falk [mailto:falk@ISI.EDU]=20 Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 4:29 PM To: off-path-bof@ietf.org Cc: Internet Steering Group; p2prg@ietf.org Subject: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. OFFPATH/EMMERG folks- See the proposal below to re-scope the P2PRG to be tied to a =20 (proposed) IETF P2P-SIP working group. Are there any issues of =20 overlap or conflict the (proposed) IRTF EMMERG RG? It's OK for RGs =20 to have overlapping scope but it's not good to unnecessarily fracture =20 the community. P2PRG- The current draft EMMERG charter can be found here: http://=20 www.irtf.org/chairfiles/emmerg-charter-v5a.txt. --aaron Begin forwarded message: > From: "Henry Sinnreich" > Date: October 2, 2006 2:31:01 PM PDT > To: "John Buford" , "Samrat =20 > Bhattacharjee" , , =20 > > Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RG participation. > > John Buford writes: > >> the most likely scenario to re-activate it would be to couple it >> directly to P2P-SIP, which is having its second BOF soon (San Diego > IETF). > > I believe this is a very constructive proposal. Since new P2P =20 > protocols > are still emerging and their research is out of scope for the proposed > P2P SIP WG, the P2P RG could provide a very effective support by =20 > taking > on the research topics that can support P2P SIP. > > Examples of topics of interest include such as: > > - Neighbor node discovery based on latency, > - Overlays for range queries, for example searching by last name, > - Overlays for searching by attribute (location, business, etc.), > - Addressing the security vulnerabilities on overlays for P2P SIP, > - Hierarchical overlays, > - etc., > > We can almost promise there will be no shortage of challenges :-) > > Thanks, Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Buford [mailto:buford@research.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:45 PM > To: Samrat Bhattacharjee; p2prg@ietf.org; byeager@fastmail.fm > Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RG participation. > > > Active RGs seem to have one or more > of the following characteristics: > 1. the RG is coupled to a specific WG (e.g. HIP) > 2. the work is closely related to the historical > activity of the IETF so that there is a critical > mass of interested researchers already in the IETF > to participate > 3. the research topic hasn't reached a scale where > it has its own conference forums outside IETF > 4. the chair(s) own/drive/energize the RG activities > to a large extent > 5. there is a sizeable commercial motivation for > research & subsequent standardization of a network > protocol problem space > > Regarding P2P as an RG: > 1. there is no coupling yet, possibly P2P-SIP > might be in the future, and P2P-SIP parties made > requests at Dallas P2PRG meeting for support > 2. P2P is an area which has no standardization > history in IETF to draw from > 3. P2P has many conferences, and most researchers > seem to prefer the peer-review process, recognition and > collaboration in those venues > 4. this might succeed, but doesn't seem to be a preferred > model. the extended efforts of Bill & Bobby should > be noted and are certainly appreciated by many. > 5. most p2p systems have been closed protocols > which have succeeeded without standardization and > related research. > > In the long run it seems that something like P2PRG > will be needed and important for the IETF. > > In the near term, the most likely scenario to re-activate > it would be to couple it directly to P2P-SIP, which is having > its second BOF soon. The best time to work that > out would be if and after its charter is approved. > > The general idea would be 1) to scope the RG > charter so that it addresses specific open issues > that are outside of the WG charter, (e.g, decentralized > security) > 2) survey the P2P-SIP WG and P2P RG to see how many people > would actively work on IDs for these open issues. > 3) have some type of active cross-over coordination between > RG and WG, as in HIP RG/WG, and one or more "owner" > individuals who want to drive the RG work. > > Regarding the P2PRG service discovery subgroup I hope > to continue that work if the RG continues. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Samrat Bhattacharjee [mailto:bobby@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:18 PM > To: p2prg@ietf.org > Cc: byeager@fastmail.fm > Subject: [P2Prg] RG participation. > > > > Hello... > > Our research group has been dormant for some time now, and the IRTF > chair (cc'ed) has enquired if it makes sense to continue the P2P-RG. > It is clear that all who are members here are working on their own P2P > research; however, the RG has not (yet) been quite the forum for > exchanging ideas that we had initially hoped. This is not to take > away from the work that the RG has already produced, however, lately, > there does not seem to be much activity, and this is of concern. > > Bottom line: Should we still keep this RG open? If you have a > strong opinion one way or another, please drop us a line. > > Note that silence implies that we recommend to the IRTF that the RG be > shut down, so if you are in favor of continuing this group, please > include some ideas on how to generate more research activity. > > Thanks. > > Bill and Bobby > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof From off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 08 19:32:58 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWi8W-0004m7-LH; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:32:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWi8V-0004lr-CY; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:32:47 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWi8T-0001k9-SF; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:32:47 -0400 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-71-106-227-203.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.106.227.203]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k98NWDCb005398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 8 Oct 2006 16:32:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <24CCCC428EFEA2469BF046DB3C7A8D2219A6AD@namail5.corp.adobe.com> <290F4125-9E15-4414-B194-90CCF00696B3@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1B6169C7-8C17-4F8F-A2BD-45072300AE92@ISI.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aaron Falk Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 16:32:11 -0700 To: Bill Yeager X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: falk@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9af087f15dbdd4c64ae6bbcdbc5b1d44 Cc: off-path-bof@ietf.org, Internet Steering Group , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Re: [IRSG] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Bill- Understood. However, I submit that the RG agenda should follow the interests and energy of the participants. Another thing to keep in mind is that the charter of the RG can be broader than the near-term work plan. An RG may choose to work on a broad array of topics in a serial fashion, focusing on a narrower set at any one time. --aaron On Oct 8, 2006, at 4:24 PM, Bill Yeager wrote: > Hi aaron, > > I personally think that P2P SIP is too narrow a scope for the P2P > RG. I would think that yes, the P2P RG can do research on P2P SIP, > but strongly discourage limiting its scope too narrowly. > > Bill > > co-chair P2P RG > > On Oct 8, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Falk wrote: > >> OFFPATH/EMMERG folks- >> >> See the proposal below to re-scope the P2PRG to be tied to a >> (proposed) IETF P2P-SIP working group. Are there any issues of >> overlap or conflict the (proposed) IRTF EMMERG RG? It's OK for RGs >> to have overlapping scope but it's not good to unnecessarily fracture >> the community. >> >> P2PRG- The current draft EMMERG charter can be found here: http:// >> www.irtf.org/chairfiles/emmerg-charter-v5a.txt. >> >> --aaron >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: "Henry Sinnreich" >>> Date: October 2, 2006 2:31:01 PM PDT >>> To: "John Buford" , "Samrat >>> Bhattacharjee" , , >>> >>> Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RG participation. >>> >>> John Buford writes: >>> >>>> the most likely scenario to re-activate it would be to couple it >>>> directly to P2P-SIP, which is having its second BOF soon (San Diego >>> IETF). >>> >>> I believe this is a very constructive proposal. Since new P2P >>> protocols >>> are still emerging and their research is out of scope for the >>> proposed >>> P2P SIP WG, the P2P RG could provide a very effective support by >>> taking >>> on the research topics that can support P2P SIP. >>> >>> Examples of topics of interest include such as: >>> >>> - Neighbor node discovery based on latency, >>> - Overlays for range queries, for example searching by last name, >>> - Overlays for searching by attribute (location, business, etc.), >>> - Addressing the security vulnerabilities on overlays for P2P SIP, >>> - Hierarchical overlays, >>> - etc., >>> >>> We can almost promise there will be no shortage of challenges :-) >>> >>> Thanks, Henry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: John Buford [mailto:buford@research.panasonic.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:45 PM >>> To: Samrat Bhattacharjee; p2prg@ietf.org; byeager@fastmail.fm >>> Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RG participation. >>> >>> >>> Active RGs seem to have one or more >>> of the following characteristics: >>> 1. the RG is coupled to a specific WG (e.g. HIP) >>> 2. the work is closely related to the historical >>> activity of the IETF so that there is a critical >>> mass of interested researchers already in the IETF >>> to participate >>> 3. the research topic hasn't reached a scale where >>> it has its own conference forums outside IETF >>> 4. the chair(s) own/drive/energize the RG activities >>> to a large extent >>> 5. there is a sizeable commercial motivation for >>> research & subsequent standardization of a network >>> protocol problem space >>> >>> Regarding P2P as an RG: >>> 1. there is no coupling yet, possibly P2P-SIP >>> might be in the future, and P2P-SIP parties made >>> requests at Dallas P2PRG meeting for support >>> 2. P2P is an area which has no standardization >>> history in IETF to draw from >>> 3. P2P has many conferences, and most researchers >>> seem to prefer the peer-review process, recognition and >>> collaboration in those venues >>> 4. this might succeed, but doesn't seem to be a preferred >>> model. the extended efforts of Bill & Bobby should >>> be noted and are certainly appreciated by many. >>> 5. most p2p systems have been closed protocols >>> which have succeeeded without standardization and >>> related research. >>> >>> In the long run it seems that something like P2PRG >>> will be needed and important for the IETF. >>> >>> In the near term, the most likely scenario to re-activate >>> it would be to couple it directly to P2P-SIP, which is having >>> its second BOF soon. The best time to work that >>> out would be if and after its charter is approved. >>> >>> The general idea would be 1) to scope the RG >>> charter so that it addresses specific open issues >>> that are outside of the WG charter, (e.g, decentralized >>> security) >>> 2) survey the P2P-SIP WG and P2P RG to see how many people >>> would actively work on IDs for these open issues. >>> 3) have some type of active cross-over coordination between >>> RG and WG, as in HIP RG/WG, and one or more "owner" >>> individuals who want to drive the RG work. >>> >>> Regarding the P2PRG service discovery subgroup I hope >>> to continue that work if the RG continues. >>> >>> John >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Samrat Bhattacharjee [mailto:bobby@cs.umd.edu] >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:18 PM >>> To: p2prg@ietf.org >>> Cc: byeager@fastmail.fm >>> Subject: [P2Prg] RG participation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello... >>> >>> Our research group has been dormant for some time now, and the IRTF >>> chair (cc'ed) has enquired if it makes sense to continue the P2P-RG. >>> It is clear that all who are members here are working on their >>> own P2P >>> research; however, the RG has not (yet) been quite the forum for >>> exchanging ideas that we had initially hoped. This is not to take >>> away from the work that the RG has already produced, however, >>> lately, >>> there does not seem to be much activity, and this is of concern. >>> >>> Bottom line: Should we still keep this RG open? If you have a >>> strong opinion one way or another, please drop us a line. >>> >>> Note that silence implies that we recommend to the IRTF that the >>> RG be >>> shut down, so if you are in favor of continuing this group, please >>> include some ideas on how to generate more research activity. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Bill and Bobby >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> P2prg mailing list >>> P2prg@irtf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IRSG mailing list >> IRSG@mailman.isi.edu >> http://mailman.isi.edu/mailman/listinfo/irsg _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof From off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 08 20:28:59 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWj0p-0004PG-B6; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 20:28:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWj0n-0004Jg-KS; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 20:28:53 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWj0m-0001t5-A3; Sun, 08 Oct 2006 20:28:53 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Oct 2006 17:28:52 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k990SpeE008575; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:28:51 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k990SpW4026977; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:28:51 -0700 Received: from cisco.com ([10.21.114.225]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:28:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:28:24 -0700 From: Scott W Brim To: Aaron Falk Subject: Re: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. Message-ID: <20061009002824.GA4332@sbrim-wxp01> References: <24CCCC428EFEA2469BF046DB3C7A8D2219A6AD@namail5.corp.adobe.com> <290F4125-9E15-4414-B194-90CCF00696B3@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <290F4125-9E15-4414-B194-90CCF00696B3@isi.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 00:28:50.0975 (UTC) FILETIME=[E4BAD2F0:01C6EB39] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=swb@employees.org; dkim=neutral X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: off-path-bof@ietf.org, Internet Steering Group , p2prg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, Oct 08, 2006 02:28:58PM -0700, Aaron Falk allegedly wrote: > OFFPATH/EMMERG folks- > > See the proposal below to re-scope the P2PRG to be tied to a > (proposed) IETF P2P-SIP working group. Are there any issues of > overlap or conflict the (proposed) IRTF EMMERG RG? It's OK for RGs > to have overlapping scope but it's not good to unnecessarily fracture > the community. > > P2PRG- The current draft EMMERG charter can be found here: http:// > www.irtf.org/chairfiles/emmerg-charter-v5a.txt. I don't think there's that much overlap in goal between P2P SIP and EMERG, although they'll touch some of the same territory. IMHO the essence of P2P SIP is to free the peer discovery process from the Borg (plus a couple of other things like support for anonymity and NAT traversal). All of the P2PRG work would support it directly. OTOH it seems that the implicit issue in EMERG is to *control* the discovery process, and to make it work well when a lot of control exists, assuming strong A&A. swb _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof From off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 09 08:38:39 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuP1-00005l-DP; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:38:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuP0-00005d-1c; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:38:38 -0400 Received: from exchfe1.cs.cornell.edu ([128.84.97.27]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuOw-000879-2U; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:38:38 -0400 Received: from EXCHANGE2.cs.cornell.edu ([128.84.96.44]) by exchfe1.cs.cornell.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 08:38:33 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 08:38:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20061009002824.GA4332@sbrim-wxp01> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. Thread-Index: AcbrOehJfpYRs2VOR8iin5ipy7gg+gAZc07A From: "Paul Francis" To: "Scott W Brim" , "Aaron Falk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 12:38:33.0617 (UTC) FILETIME=[D537D010:01C6EB9F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: off-path-bof@ietf.org, Internet Steering Group , p2prg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: off-path-bof@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "BOF: Path-decoupled Signaling for Data" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: off-path-bof-bounces@ietf.org I agree with Scott...the two groups seem more complementary than = overlapping. As someone pointed out, P2PSIP could utilize whatever comes out of = EMMERG. PF =20 -----Original Message----- From: Scott W Brim [mailto:swb@employees.org]=20 Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:28 PM To: Aaron Falk Cc: off-path-bof@ietf.org; Internet Steering Group; p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OFF-PATH-BOF] Fwd: [P2Prg] RG participation. On Sun, Oct 08, 2006 02:28:58PM -0700, Aaron Falk allegedly wrote: > OFFPATH/EMMERG folks- >=20 > See the proposal below to re-scope the P2PRG to be tied to a > (proposed) IETF P2P-SIP working group. Are there any issues of=20 > overlap or conflict the (proposed) IRTF EMMERG RG? It's OK for RGs to = > have overlapping scope but it's not good to unnecessarily fracture the = > community. >=20 > P2PRG- The current draft EMMERG charter can be found here: http://=20 > www.irtf.org/chairfiles/emmerg-charter-v5a.txt. I don't think there's that much overlap in goal between P2P SIP and = EMERG, although they'll touch some of the same territory. IMHO the essence of = P2P SIP is to free the peer discovery process from the Borg (plus a couple = of other things like support for anonymity and NAT traversal). All of the = P2PRG work would support it directly. OTOH it seems that the implicit issue = in EMERG is to *control* the discovery process, and to make it work well = when a lot of control exists, assuming strong A&A. =20 swb _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof _______________________________________________ OFF-PATH-BOF mailing list OFF-PATH-BOF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/off-path-bof