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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C627F5.35387100-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 09:06:03 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4f62-0007Cb-Vm for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:06:03 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05110 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12DmiR2041834; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12DmiAw041833; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Dmg9x041796 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A097233F8D for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:48:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:48:38 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: OpenPGP Subject: V3 secret keys X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in 5.5.3 it says: "Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start of the MPI data." I can't find anywhere a precise (or even an imprecise) definition of "resynchronized". What exactly does it mean? Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to the initial value and start again? Or what? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 09:21:59 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4fLH-0005rr-Es for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:21:59 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06812 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12E6IeF044875; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12E6Iid044871; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:06:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12E6D8e044853 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 81D8E2B45D2; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:06:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:06:12 +0100 To: Ben Laurie Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:48:38PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > in 5.5.3 it says: > > "Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each > new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start > of the MPI data." > > I can't find anywhere a precise (or even an imprecise) definition of > "resynchronized". What exactly does it mean? > > Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the > current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but > set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to > the initial value and start again? Or what? > > Cheers, > > Ben. It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and shifting the IV. -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 11:20:26 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4hC6-0006aZ-RL for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:20:26 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16980 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12G7FLe057757; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12G7FwF057756; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12G7E23057748 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D8D872B45D2; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:07:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:07:13 +0100 To: OpenPGP Subject: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I know that this has been discussed earlier, but I think it is important to weed out and summarize the requirements for the upcoming V5 key packet format. Public key packet format 1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key (key material + algorithm). Private key packet format 1. Change wording of standard to indicate that this is intended to be merely an export-import format. Implementations can obtain private keys any way they see fit. 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. 3. Support for multiprime RSA keys (as in PKCS#1 v2.1). 4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. I think, the above are all legitimate needs that should be addressed in the new packet format. I cannot think of more. Comments? -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 12:55:48 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4igO-0008Fb-99 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:55:48 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24379 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12HfYJ0069378; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12HfYIE069377; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12HfXtG069370 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CBA33C59; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:10:32 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" CC: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> In-Reply-To: <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:48:38PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >> in 5.5.3 it says: >> >> "Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each >> new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start >> of the MPI data." >> >> I can't find anywhere a precise (or even an imprecise) definition of >> "resynchronized". What exactly does it mean? >> >> Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the >> current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but >> set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to >> the initial value and start again? Or what? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ben. > > It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and > shifting the IV. If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 13:58:32 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4jf5-0006OA-V7 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:58:32 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29273 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Ik7mF077282; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12Ik7dw077281; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:46:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.off.net (off.net [66.96.28.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Ik6M4077273 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@mail.off.net) Received: by mail.off.net (Postfix, from userid 948) id 4AB877704F8; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by bitchcake.off.net (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 948); Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:46:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:46:01 -0500 From: Adam Back To: Ben Laurie Cc: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:ben@algroup.co.uk::4YWjL6B2/ZerNAtI:DSD X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:nagydani@epointsystem.org::2RTbjceqUWJA9A+N:8Umc X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:ietf-openpgp@imc.org::XLMTEaipvJYUZQlb:36Zm X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:adam@cypherspace.org::HV/p2vnEThFzfo5G:114R Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: The pgp263 docs say (not much better): | One unusual point about the way encryption is done. Using the IDEA | cipher in CFB mode, the first 10 bytes are decrypted normally, but | bytes 10 to 17, the first 8 bytes of the data proper, are encrypted | using bytes 2 to 9 (the last 8 bytes of the key check prefix) as the | IV. This is essentially using CFB-16 for one part of the | encryption, while CFB-64 is used elsewhere. So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get compat with some parts of pgp) what it means is you encrypt normally with CFB-64 (encrypt previous 8 bytes, xor with plaintext). When you get to one of these sync points, it may be part way thru a block, so you encrypt the short block as normal. Then you take the previous 8 bytes of ciphertext and use it as the IV and continue. So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. I agree what is written is pretty unclear. Adam On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > >> Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the > >> current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but > >> set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to > >> the initial value and start again? Or what? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Ben. > > > > It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and > > shifting the IV. > > If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB > when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. > > -- > http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ > > "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he > doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 15:11:11 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4knH-0004mU-AP for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:11:11 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04994 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12JvqYH086676; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12JvquD086675; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from photomat.hhhh.org (photomat.hhhh.org [207.202.171.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Jvp5o086669 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wiml@hhhh.org) Received: by photomat.hhhh.org (Postfix, from userid 4395) id 7D6DB81C0; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by photomat.hhhh.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E9FAD37; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) From: Wim Lewis To: OpenPGP Cc: Adam Back , Ben Laurie , "Daniel A. Nagy" Subject: Re: V3 secret keys In-Reply-To: <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> Message-ID: References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Adam Back wrote: > So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get > compat with some parts of pgp) Likewise :-) I had to go examine the pgp2.6.2 source to be sure I was doing it right, IIRC. > So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to > resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the > previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. As I understand it (it's been a while...), normal CFB has no concept of partial block encryption except at the end of the stream. Even there, one could argue, you're just padding the stream to a block boundary, then truncating the output back to the original length, and taking advantage of the property that the last block's worth of bits are independent (no mixing / avalanche). So one way to describe PGP's operation is to say that each field is encrypted independently using CFB, and the results are concatenated; the fields after the first use an IV equal to the last eight bytes of the output so far. (If the total ciphertext at that point is still too short, then bytes from the original IV are used as if they preceded the cipher stream.) For fields which are a multiple of the block length, this is the same as normal CFB; for short fields, some of the ciphertext gets used as key material for more than one invocation of the block cipher: once for the last block of a field, and again (mixed with new ciphertext) for the first block of the next field. What I've written above is very much not the way that pgp2.6.2 thinks of the operation, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent. IIRC, there are only two places in PGP where the odd feedback mode comes into play: the check bytes at the beginning of an encrypted file, and encrypted MPIs in the secret key packet. > I agree what is written is pretty unclear. There's a comment in pgp2.6.2's idea.c which explains it reasonably well, I think. > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >> If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB >> when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. From the comment in 2.6.2: * Phil invented a unique way of doing CFB that's sensitive to semantic * boundaries within the data being encrypted. [... detailed explanation snipped ... ] * This is equivalent to using a * shorter feedback length (if you're familiar with the general CFB * technique) briefly, and doesn't weaken the cipher any (using shorter * CFB lengths makes it stronger, actually), it just makes it a bit unusual. The unusual aspect is the varying feedback length, where the feedback length depends on the presence of a semantic boundary in the plaintext. Normally CFB operates on an undifferentiated stream-of-bytes, and field boundaries are not preserved nor significant. From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 02 15:53:50 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4lSg-0007oz-2G for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:53:50 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08345 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Kh6Bf092369; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12Kh6rF092368; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:43:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Kh5Um092362 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3F92A2B45D2; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:43:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:43:04 +0100 To: Wim Lewis Cc: OpenPGP , Adam Back , Ben Laurie Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 11:57:50AM -0800, Wim Lewis wrote: > As I understand it (it's been a while...), normal CFB has no concept of > partial block encryption except at the end of the stream. Yes it does. The whole point of CFB is that it can encrypt arbitrary block lengths up to the block size of the used block cipher. That is why it is used in interactive applications. > What I've written above is very much not the way that pgp2.6.2 thinks of > the operation, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent. Right, your description is equivalent, but different from the traditional view of CFB. I implemented CFB resynchronization based on the description in Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", without looking into any implementations. The result was interoperable at first attempt. > >From the comment in 2.6.2: > > * Phil invented a unique way of doing CFB that's sensitive to semantic > * boundaries within the data being encrypted. > [... detailed explanation snipped ... ] > * This is equivalent to using a > * shorter feedback length (if you're familiar with the general CFB > * technique) briefly, and doesn't weaken the cipher any (using shorter > * CFB lengths makes it stronger, actually), it just makes it a bit unusual. I somewhat disagree. Following semantics with block length may indeed be PZ's innovation, but variable block length is one of the reasons why CFB has been invented in the first place. -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 07:09:29 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F4zkn-0003Xn-3H for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 07:09:29 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21338 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13BrRYs019921; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13BrRNk019920; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13BrQ8R019914 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D467733C1C; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:53:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:53:33 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" CC: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> In-Reply-To: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > I know that this has been discussed earlier, but I think it is important to > weed out and summarize the requirements for the upcoming V5 key packet format. > > Public key packet format > > 1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and > maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This > would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key > (key material + algorithm). This could be confusing - documents that were signed with a key specified like this could retroactively find themselves predating the key. > Private key packet format > > 1. Change wording of standard to indicate that this is intended to be merely > an export-import format. Implementations can obtain private keys any way > they see fit. Also, from memory, private keys include stuff that can be calculated (or is it that they don't include stuff that's useful to have precalculated?). In any case, it would be good to know what's optional. > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted > container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no reason > to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key packet into > that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the number of things > to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and > maintain. Yes, please! > 3. Support for multiprime RSA keys (as in PKCS#1 v2.1). Aren't they patented? > 4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. > > I think, the above are all legitimate needs that should be addressed in the > new packet format. I cannot think of more. Support for PFS. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 08:04:16 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F50bo-0000bZ-Ga for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:04:16 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22059 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CpTco028121; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13CpTRJ028120; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CpT8n028114 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA4133C3F; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:51:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E351D8.20308@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:51:36 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Back CC: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adam Back wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 11:53:33AM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > >>> 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically >>> encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so >>> there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the >>> unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need >>> encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about >>> and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. >> Yes, please! > > What if you want different password on different keys? > > (Think eg long term signing key vs short term signing key -- no point > having separate signing keys unless have possibility to use different > password.) Eh? You can have 1 symmetric encrypted packet per key, they don't have to share one. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 08:22:38 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F50tZ-0006CB-My for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:22:38 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25994 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13D57xi029925; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13D57UE029924; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl (smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl [213.51.130.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13D56Up029918 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edwin@woudt.nl) Received: from [213.51.130.188] (port=49940 helo=smtp3.groni1.gr.home.nl) by smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F50cb-000784-Fg; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:05:05 +0100 Received: from cc718542-b.ensch1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.228.134]:6969 helo=[10.42.42.23]) by smtp3.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F50ca-0007Ui-9l; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:05:04 +0100 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:05:34 +0100 From: Edwin Woudt To: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2-2-2006 17:07 +0100 "Daniel A. Nagy" wrote: > > 1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and > maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This > would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key > (key material + algorithm). IMHO, things that have nothing to do with the user ID should not be in a self-signature, but in a direct key signature (type 0x1F) instead. > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted > container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no > reason to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key > packet into that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the > number of things to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier > to assess and maintain. Agreed. > 4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. Why is this needed? Isn't this possible already using the current (V4) packet formats? -- Edwin From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 08:51:00 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F51L2-00053y-SY for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:51:00 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28991 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13DW5Xw034382; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13DW5CF034381; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13DW46v034374 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D5D4D2B47A3; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:32:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:32:03 +0100 To: Edwin Woudt Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203133203.GA13744@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 02:05:34PM +0100, Edwin Woudt wrote: > --On 2-2-2006 17:07 +0100 "Daniel A. Nagy" > wrote: > > > >1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and > >maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This > >would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key > >(key material + algorithm). > > IMHO, things that have nothing to do with the user ID should not be in a > self-signature, but in a direct key signature (type 0x1F) instead. That's a self-signature, too (just not a key-uid binding one). But I agree that signatures on keys are less popular with implementations than they should be. OTOH, this is not directly related to the key packet format. > >4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. > > Why is this needed? Isn't this possible already using the current (V4) > packet formats? It is possible, but in many different ways. Implementations are generally not interoperable. This stuff must be standardized, IMHO. -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 10:44:19 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F536X-00043x-Un for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:44:18 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11839 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FMG9x049005; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13FMGCF049003; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FME3Q048964 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF0233C3F; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:22:13 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3752D.40505@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:22:21 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wim Lewis CC: OpenPGP , Adam Back , "Daniel A. Nagy" Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wim Lewis wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Adam Back wrote: >> So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get >> compat with some parts of pgp) > > Likewise :-) I had to go examine the pgp2.6.2 source to be sure I was > doing it right, IIRC. > >> So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to >> resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the >> previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. > > As I understand it (it's been a while...), normal CFB has no concept of > partial block encryption except at the end of the stream. Even there, > one could argue, you're just padding the stream to a block boundary, > then truncating the output back to the original length, and taking > advantage of the property that the last block's worth of bits are > independent > (no mixing / avalanche). > > So one way to describe PGP's operation is to say that each field is > encrypted independently using CFB, and the results are concatenated; > the fields after the first use an IV equal to the last eight bytes of > the output so far. (If the total ciphertext at that point is still too > short, then bytes from the original IV are used as if they > preceded the cipher stream.) Yes, this is what OpenSSL implements, and it definitely works with OpenPGP (not surprisingly, because this is really equivalent to decrypting the whole thing using CFB and then slicing it up afterwards). > For fields which are a multiple of the block length, this is the same > as normal CFB; for short fields, some of the ciphertext gets used as > key material for more than one invocation of the block cipher: once > for the last block of a field, and again (mixed with new ciphertext) > for the first block of the next field. No, this I don't agree with. > What I've written above is very much not the way that pgp2.6.2 thinks of > the operation, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent. I think not. > IIRC, there are only two places in PGP where the odd feedback mode > comes into play: the check bytes at the beginning of an encrypted > file, and encrypted MPIs in the secret key packet. I do not know what you mean by the "odd feedback mode". >> I agree what is written is pretty unclear. > > There's a comment in pgp2.6.2's idea.c which explains it reasonably well, > I think. > >> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >>> If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB >>> when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. > > From the comment in 2.6.2: > > * Phil invented a unique way of doing CFB that's sensitive to semantic > * boundaries within the data being encrypted. > [... detailed explanation snipped ... ] > * This is equivalent to using a > * shorter feedback length (if you're familiar with the general CFB > * technique) briefly, and doesn't weaken the cipher any (using shorter > * CFB lengths makes it stronger, actually), it just makes it a bit > unusual. > > The unusual aspect is the varying feedback length, where the feedback > length depends on the presence of a semantic boundary in the plaintext. > Normally CFB operates on an undifferentiated stream-of-bytes, and field > boundaries are not preserved nor significant. I don't believe this is an accurate description of what's going on. At least, not with v4 secret keys, which allegedly are nearly the same (apart from "resynchronisation" - which I still am in the dark about). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 10:44:44 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F5376-0004y3-Ae for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:44:44 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11909 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FEkbs046903; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13FEkVq046902; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FEjfu046895 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF21933C1C; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:14:43 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3736C.6030300@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:14:52 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Back CC: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adam Back wrote: > The pgp263 docs say (not much better): > > | One unusual point about the way encryption is done. Using the IDEA > | cipher in CFB mode, the first 10 bytes are decrypted normally, but > | bytes 10 to 17, the first 8 bytes of the data proper, are encrypted > | using bytes 2 to 9 (the last 8 bytes of the key check prefix) as the > | IV. This is essentially using CFB-16 for one part of the > | encryption, while CFB-64 is used elsewhere. > > So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get > compat with some parts of pgp) what it means is you encrypt normally > with CFB-64 (encrypt previous 8 bytes, xor with plaintext). When you > get to one of these sync points, it may be part way thru a block, so > you encrypt the short block as normal. Then you take the previous 8 > bytes of ciphertext and use it as the IV and continue. > > So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to > resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the > previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. OK, but this is how CFB works normally (at least, as implemented in OpenSSL), so what you appear to be saying is that in v3 mode you carry on as if the two plaintext bytes (the MPI length field) weren't there. Right? > > I agree what is written is pretty unclear. > > Adam > > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >>>> Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the >>>> current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but >>>> set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to >>>> the initial value and start again? Or what? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Ben. >>> It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and >>> shifting the IV. >> If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB >> when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. >> >> -- >> http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ >> >> "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he >> doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff > > -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 10:50:19 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F53CU-0006Dq-Sg for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:50:18 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12355 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FTLib050297; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13FTLwf050290; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FTKkS050274 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CC533C45; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E376D5.1070102@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:29:25 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" CC: Wim Lewis , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> In-Reply-To: <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > Right, your description is equivalent, but different from the traditional > view of CFB. I implemented CFB resynchronization based on the description in > Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", without looking into any > implementations. The result was interoperable at first attempt. I (reluctantly) dug out my copy of "Applied Cryptography" and I see no mention of "resynchronisation". -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 11:12:56 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F53YO-0005JK-At for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:12:56 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15333 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13Fw6tQ053970; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13Fw6aO053969; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:58:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpq1.groni1.gr.home.nl (smtpq1.groni1.gr.home.nl [213.51.130.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13Fw5gx053963 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edwin@woudt.nl) Received: from [213.51.130.190] (port=33956 helo=smtp1.groni1.gr.home.nl) by smtpq1.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F53K0-0004BN-O2; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:58:04 +0100 Received: from cc718542-b.ensch1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.228.134]:7041 helo=[10.42.42.23]) by smtp1.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F53Jf-0007oD-Oo; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:57:43 +0100 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:58:34 +0100 From: Edwin Woudt To: "Daniel A. Nagy" cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060203133203.GA13744@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <20060203133203.GA13744@epointsystem.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> IMHO, things that have nothing to do with the user ID should not be in a >> self-signature, but in a direct key signature (type 0x1F) instead. > > But I agree > that signatures on keys are less popular with implementations than they > should be. OTOH, this is not directly related to the key packet format. The introduction of V5 would be a good moment to remedy this situation. -- Edwin From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 12:00:50 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F54Ij-0004by-O9 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:00:50 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20129 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13GinWQ061417; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13GinEG061416; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:44:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgate.enhyper.net ([80.168.109.121]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13GimvC061397 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgate.enhyper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A465B8AE for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:44:47 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:43:24 +0100 From: Ian G Organization: http://financialcryptography.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Laurie wrote: > Daniel A. Nagy wrote: >>1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and >>maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This >>would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key >>(key material + algorithm). > > > This could be confusing - documents that were signed with a key > specified like this could retroactively find themselves predating the key. Why is this important? The date on the key is just "there" and isn't of such strength that it should be stressed overly much. The dates of importance are the date of signing (which should be in the signature) and the date of attesting some meaning to the key for the purpose of signing documents. The date of the key creation would appear to be just some artifact of the tech. (And for some things like password-generated keys, would appear to be a non-date.) > >>2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted >>container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no reason >>to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key packet into >>that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the number of things >>to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and >>maintain. > > > Yes, please! Yay! Less is always better. iang From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 12:17:09 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F54YI-0006iS-0n for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:17:09 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21130 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CYp39026187; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13CYpNk026186; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CYnar026179 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:34:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EC34F2B47A3; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:34:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:34:48 +0100 To: Adam Back Cc: Ben Laurie , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203123448.GA8926@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:25:26AM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 11:53:33AM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically > > > encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so > > > there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the > > > unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need > > > encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about > > > and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. > > > > Yes, please! > > What if you want different password on different keys? > > (Think eg long term signing key vs short term signing key -- no point > having separate signing keys unless have possibility to use different > password.) Then you put the two key packets in two different containers with different passphrases. And again, keep in mind that this is primarily and export-import format. -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 12:17:09 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F54YN-0006jL-EM for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:17:09 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21150 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CPV6J025205; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13CPVhp025204; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.off.net (off.net [66.96.28.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CPUAf025189 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@mail.off.net) Received: by mail.off.net (Postfix, from userid 948) id 215AB770003; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by bitchcake.off.net (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 948); Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:25:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:25:26 -0500 From: Adam Back To: Ben Laurie Cc: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:ben@algroup.co.uk::BVk/eKy1OPO67+UI:2xIy X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:nagydani@epointsystem.org::BkKmgj8ZA2YTVMq7:5Y44 X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:ietf-openpgp@imc.org::J/WeZuXvRSkaORl1:8i8X X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:adam@cypherspace.org::voAGQ1DIKae4IhLn:CMZ Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 11:53:33AM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically > > encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so > > there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the > > unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need > > encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about > > and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. > > Yes, please! What if you want different password on different keys? (Think eg long term signing key vs short term signing key -- no point having separate signing keys unless have possibility to use different password.) Adam From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 13:33:01 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F55jx-00073w-C1 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:33:01 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27201 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13ICN73073364; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13ICNB4073363; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from p15139323.pureserver.info (silmor.de [217.160.219.75]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13ICMWd073348 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from konrad@silmor.de) Received: from p54b3e320.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.179.227.32] helo=zaphod.local) by p15139323.pureserver.info with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1F55Pt-0005zZ-00 for ; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:12:17 +0100 From: Konrad Rosenbaum To: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:09:06 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9 References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> In-Reply-To: <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200602031909.10133@zaphod.konrad.silmor.de> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday 03 February 2006 17:43, Ian G wrote: > Ben Laurie wrote: > > This could be confusing - documents that were signed with a key > > specified like this could retroactively find themselves predating the > > key. > > Why is this important? The date on the key is > just "there" and isn't of such strength that it > should be stressed overly much. Consequently one would also need to scrap the logic that a signature is=20 invalid if it predates the key (that's somewhere in RFC2440). Why not: hash the _complete_ public key packet _as_is_ without any=20 modifications?=20 The computational load of hashing a few bytes more and of slicing them firs= t=20 should be about identical. It is very easy to implement (read as: less potential security holes throug= h=20 programming mistakes and higher interoperability). It is much more resistant against upcoming attacks than a selective model. Konrad --nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBD45xGClt766LaIH0RAk3jAJ9Tc1GL7xJdLONPHZ0UgHZDd7b28gCfcjn+ USBC9xPmSGxFJ2w4ELx7G8E= =isEL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 03 14:07:08 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F56Gw-0005Tg-54 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:07:08 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29803 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13IpLlk078182; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13IpLo6078181; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13IpKVA078173 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 373592B47D5; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:51:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:51:19 +0100 To: Konrad Rosenbaum Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203185119.GB2064@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> <200602031909.10133@zaphod.konrad.silmor.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200602031909.10133@zaphod.konrad.silmor.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:09:06PM +0100, Konrad Rosenbaum wrote: > Consequently one would also need to scrap the logic that a signature is > invalid if it predates the key (that's somewhere in RFC2440). I disagree. I'm merely advocating moving the key creation time into the self signature, which is the only obstacle to forgery anyway: If you give me a signed document that predates the key along with that key, I can change the date in the key, re-calculate the hash, change the reference to the key in the signature and voila, I have a valid signature, without access to any private info. The only thing stopping me is the self-signature on the key, which also hashes the key creation date. So, that self-signature is the real cryptographic protection, not the reference in the document signature. Thus, one does not reduce security a bit by moving the key creation date into the self-signature. That is where it belongs. > Why not: hash the _complete_ public key packet _as_is_ without any > modifications? > > The computational load of hashing a few bytes more and of slicing them first > should be about identical. > > It is very easy to implement (read as: less potential security holes through > programming mistakes and higher interoperability). > > It is much more resistant against upcoming attacks than a selective model. I agree. This is why I am calling for throwing the key creation date out of the key packet. The key packet should only contain an algorithm identifier, the key material and possibly deterministic functions thereof. -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sat Feb 04 05:16:52 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F5KTL-0005Rc-Of for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:16:52 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23576 for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 05:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k149x1rY016207; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k149x1Ra016206; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k149wx2r016199 for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 21C3E2B47EF; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:58:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:58:58 +0100 To: Ben Laurie Cc: Wim Lewis , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060204095858.GA3446@epointsystem.org> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> <43E376D5.1070102@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E376D5.1070102@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 03:29:25PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > > Right, your description is equivalent, but different from the traditional > > view of CFB. I implemented CFB resynchronization based on the description in > > Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", without looking into any > > implementations. The result was interoperable at first attempt. > > I (reluctantly) dug out my copy of "Applied Cryptography" and I see no > mention of "resynchronisation". Figure 9.9 (in Section 9.6) shows the encryption and decryption of a partial block. Resynchronization is making the current block partial (ending it at the current position) and starting a new one. -- Daniel From bfacey@email.msn.com Sat Feb 04 14:17:34 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F5Suc-00080a-Ip for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:17:34 -0500 Received: from pool-71-114-3-142.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net (pool-71-114-3-142.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.114.3.142]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA00796 for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 14:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [189.139.253.131]) by prototype.royalrailanthologyradioastronomy.com (19.58.123.38/171.153.181.138/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id 5 for bayda; Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:29:26 -0500 From: Francis Owens To: openpgp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Amazing, Alec Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: horny Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: 235.18.144.225 via proxy [22.250.176.143] Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: Boris Grace Message-Id: <659659-069715-351989.rejuvenate-barcelona-x's@email.msn.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------=8161273848714" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --------=8161273848714 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

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Subject: Photoshop, Windows, Office Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:21:53 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62B20.44CEF700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62B20.44CEF700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable.TOP.10.NEW.TITLES.ON.SALE.NOW!.1.Office.Pro.2003.2.Adobe.Photoshop.9.0.3.Windows.XP.Pro.4.Adobe.Acrobat.7.Pro.5.Flash.MX.2004.6.Corel.Draw.12.7.Norton.Antivirus.2005.8.Windows.2003.Se ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #1 Average Customer Review: (based on 48 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft Windows XP Professional by Microsoft ListPrice: $200.00 OurPrice: $49.95 YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #2 Average Customer Review: (based on 34 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0 by Adobe ListPrice: $599.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #3 Average Customer Review: (based on 44 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62B20.44CEF700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

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Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
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Average Customer Review: 3D"5
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Microsoft Windows XP Professional
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Average Customer Review: 3D"5
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Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
   by Adobe

ListPrice: $599.00
OurPrice: $69.95
YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%)



Availability: Available for INSTANT download!


Sales Rank: #3
Average Customer Review: 3D"5
(based on 47 reviews)

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62B20.44CEF700-- From geoffrey@gels.biz Mon Feb 06 06:41:16 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F64k8-00068G-1O for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 06:41:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10374 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 06:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from adsl196-218-201-217-196.adsl196-15.iam.net.ma ([196.217.201.218] helo=friend) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F64wG-0008VK-D8 for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 06:53:51 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62b12$31b52a80$0100007f@titanium> From: "John" To: Subject: Order V1agra Now Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:40:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------ms050406090806080206070508" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 509eeaf340e89c687918a6101c6def35 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ms050406090806080206070508 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ms060802040305060602060409" --------------ms060802040305060602060409 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --------------ms060802040305060602060409 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
 
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by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1F66UE-0001F5-V3 for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 08:32:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62b21$c2dfcd80$0100007f@sock-xa1jh7ot6c> From: "John" To: Subject: Full of health? Then don't click! Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:32:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------ms000506090805020809090203" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 509eeaf340e89c687918a6101c6def35 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ms000506090805020809090203 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ms070006030001060705060309" --------------ms070006030001060705060309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --------------ms070006030001060705060309 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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f8JhZf8APGb/AL9J/jRRR9drdwuw/wCEwsv+eM3/AH6T/Gj/AITCy/54zf8AfpP8aKKPrtbuF2H/ AAmFl/zxm/79J/jR/wAJhZf88Zv+/Sf40UUfXa3cLsP+Ewsv+eM3/fpP8aP+Ewsv+eM3/fpP8aKK PrtbuF2H/CYWX/PGb/v0n+NH/CYWX/PGb/v0n+NFFH12t3C7D/hMLL/njN/36T/Gj/hMLL/njN/3 6T/Giij67W7hdh/wmFl/zxm/79J/jTW8XWT4zFccDAwij+tFFDxlZ7sLs//Z --------------ms000506090805020809090203-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 06 13:23:30 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6B1A-0000Yp-Om for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:23:30 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10107 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16I1poU063950; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k16I1pe8063949; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16I1oK6063943 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573A233C45 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:01:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E78E94.5070902@algroup.co.uk> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:59:48 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: OpenPGP Subject: V3 secret keys X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was going on here. In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. Firstly, v3 CFB does not use the IV in a standard way. Instead, what it does instead is set the IV to all zeroes and then decrypt the IV and throw away the result. Secondly, as I think was correctly explained by someone here (but I didn't get it, sorry), when "resynchronisation" occurs it means "set the IV to the last 8 bytes of ciphertext". Note that for any standard-sized key resynchronisation does _not_ occur, so people who think they've implemented it from AC are in for a surprise one day. Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one has ever implemented v3 keys from it). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 06 17:48:45 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6FA3-0003PD-4a for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:48:45 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16746 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16MYOOu017816; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k16MYO8R017815; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16MYLEm017809 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 7087157FAE; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:38:01 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: <20060206223801.7087157FAE@finney.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:38:01 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was > going on here. > > In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. > > Firstly, v3 CFB does not use the IV in a standard way. Instead, what it > does instead is set the IV to all zeroes and then decrypt the IV and > throw away the result. This is not correct. The IV is used in the standard way. You may be thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you say here. V3 private keys are standard. > Secondly, as I think was correctly explained by someone here (but I > didn't get it, sorry), when "resynchronisation" occurs it means "set the > IV to the last 8 bytes of ciphertext". Right. > Note that for any standard-sized key resynchronisation does _not_ occur, > so people who think they've implemented it from AC are in for a surprise > one day. This will usually be the case; p and q will be forced to be a multiple of 8 bytes (64 bits) for keys of usual sizes. But d, which is e inverse mod lambda(n) would be shorter sometimes. lambda(n) is lcm(p-1,q-1) so lambda will be at least 1 bit shorter (since p-1 and q-1 are both even) and perhaps 2 bits shorter with probability about 1/2 (in case p-1 and q-1 have other small common factors). Independently, d may be shorter than lambda. Put it all together and maybe one key in 70 or so would have a d value which is 1 byte shorter, requiring resynchronization. > Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one > has ever implemented v3 keys from it). The current text is not inaccurate, but does rely on knowing what "resynchronized" means. Since this is a non-standard term we should explain it better. Here is the current text: Encryption/decryption of the secret data is done in CFB mode using the key created from the passphrase and the Initial Vector from the packet. A different mode is used with V3 keys (which are only RSA) than with other key formats. With V3 keys, the MPI bit count prefix (i.e., the first two octets) is not encrypted. Only the MPI non-prefix data is encrypted. Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start of the MPI data. The last sentence is the one which is problematic. What if we changed it to: Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV for that MPI taken as the last 8 octets of the ciphertext of the previous MPI value. Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 bytes, so I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. Hal Finney From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 06 19:17:10 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6GXX-0007nU-32 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:17:10 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27035 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1700kNC029731; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1700kMm029730; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (smtp3.hushmail.com [65.39.178.135]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1700jQe029723 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vedaal@hush.com) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (localhost.hushmail.com [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C135A32EE for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserver3.hushmail.com (mailserver3.hushmail.com [65.39.178.20]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by mailserver3.hushmail.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1700i0S081542 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:00:44 -0500 (GMT) (envelope-from vedaal@hush.com) Message-Id: <200602070000.k1700i0S081542@mailserver3.hushmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:00:41 -0500 To: Subject: Re: V3 secret keys From: Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:38:01 -0500 Hal Finney wrote: >Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 >bytes, so >I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. are v4 keys different in this respect ? (i.e., is there any cipher currently within the open pgp standard that v4 keys support that v3 keys could not? classically, v3 keys were started when all that was available was IDEA, but Disastry extended 2.6x for v3 keys to accept 'any' open-pgp cipher, even for symmetric protection of the secret key (i have occasionally found it useful to prepare v3 non-IDEA test keys, for gnupg testers who prefer not to use patented algorithms, even for testing, if there is a convenient way around it) [am not trying to awaken a v3 / v4 controversy ;-) am just trying to 'understand' what i might have 'missed' ] tia, vedaal Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail https://www.hushssl.com?l=485 From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 06 19:37:13 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6Gr0-0005z1-0i for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:37:13 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28875 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k170RXvd033282; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k170RX31033281; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k170RW5N033275 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 386D22B403D; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:27:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:27:31 +0100 To: vedaal@hush.com Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060207002731.GA18523@epointsystem.org> References: <200602070000.k1700i0S081542@mailserver3.hushmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200602070000.k1700i0S081542@mailserver3.hushmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 07:00:41PM -0500, vedaal@hush.com wrote: > > On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:38:01 -0500 Hal Finney > wrote: > > >Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 > >bytes, so > >I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. > > are v4 keys different in this respect ? > > (i.e., is there any cipher currently within the open pgp standard > that v4 keys support that v3 keys could not? The difference is that in the case of v4 keys, the secret part is encrypted like a regular byte stream, with no regard to the contents. In the case of V3, there were resynchronization steps introduced between the MPIs. I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected symmetrically encrypted packets instead. Personally, I would suggest removing encrypted packet formats from the standard altogether; there is no reason to stay interoperable with those. If one wants to export old keys, they should remove the encryption first. New implementations should enclose unencrypted private keys (of eiter version) in symmetrically encrypted packets with MDC. -- Daniel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 06 21:05:03 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6IE2-0001Dk-FU for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:05:03 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA05604 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k171u4aW044825; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:56:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k171u4pu044804; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k171u3jj044793 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:56:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 84A0557FAE; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:59:43 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org, vedaal@hush.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: <20060207015943.84A0557FAE@finney.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Vedaal writes: > On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:38:01 -0500 Hal Finney > wrote: > > >Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 > >bytes, so > >I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. > > are v4 keys different in this respect ? > > (i.e., is there any cipher currently within the open pgp standard > that v4 keys support that v3 keys could not? Actually I think I was wrong about what I wrote there. At the time that V3 keys were created, only 8-byte ciphers were used by PGP, but now I think it would be legal to create a V3 key and use a 16-byte cipher like AES to encrypt the private part. (Or to re-encrypt the private part of an existing V3 key using AES instead of IDEA or 3DES.) So I would have to modify my proposed change to the language of the spec to say something like: Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV for that MPI taken as the final octets of the ciphertext of the previous MPI value, with the number of such octets being equal to the block size of the cipher. > classically, v3 keys were started when all that was available was > IDEA, > but Disastry extended 2.6x for v3 keys to accept 'any' open-pgp > cipher, > even for symmetric protection of the secret key > > (i have occasionally found it useful to prepare v3 non-IDEA test > keys, > for gnupg testers who prefer not to use patented algorithms, even > for testing, if there is a convenient way around it) > > [am not trying to awaken a v3 / v4 controversy ;-) > am just trying to 'understand' what i might have 'missed' ] Thanks for pointing out my mistake! Hal Finney From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 06 21:15:24 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6IO4-0006H7-Ok for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:15:24 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06175 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1723pGQ046498; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1723prG046497; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:03:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1723mbX046491 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id EF80857FAE; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:07:28 -0800 (PST) To: nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Message-Id: <20060207020728.EF80857FAE@finney.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:07:28 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Daniel Nagy writes: > I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where > there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets > at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected > symmetrically encrypted packets instead. I haven't participated in the recent discussion, partly because I think it is a little premature until we get the current spec put to bed. I am not sure I like this idea. We'll need to retain the old mechanism for many years at least, requiring us to support yet another set of incompatible mechanisms. And I don't know if the new proposal really simplifies things much. Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is not necessary at present. It might require us to bite the bullet and clarify exactly what sequences of packets are legal, with possible backwards-compatibility problems. It would also seem to require that we store the keys in this new format, otherwise we have to ask the user for every passphrase when we import a bunch of keys like this, in order to decrypt the symmetric packets and convert them to the legacy format. So it has negative implications for existing implementations. These may not be total show-stoppers but I do want to go on record as not being ready to endorse this proposal yet. Hal Finney From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 07 04:59:06 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6Pco-0002Lz-8Z for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 04:59:06 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08625 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k179cB9f008170; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k179cBmg008169; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k179c73E008160 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C287F33C1C; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:38:06 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E86A06.8070402@algroup.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 09:36:06 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060206223801.7087157FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060206223801.7087157FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was >> going on here. >> >> In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. >> >> Firstly, v3 CFB does not use the IV in a standard way. Instead, what it >> does instead is set the IV to all zeroes and then decrypt the IV and >> throw away the result. > > This is not correct. The IV is used in the standard way. You may be > thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you > say here. V3 private keys are standard. Experiment and code reading/running says it is correct. >> Secondly, as I think was correctly explained by someone here (but I >> didn't get it, sorry), when "resynchronisation" occurs it means "set the >> IV to the last 8 bytes of ciphertext". > > Right. > >> Note that for any standard-sized key resynchronisation does _not_ occur, >> so people who think they've implemented it from AC are in for a surprise >> one day. > > This will usually be the case; p and q will be forced to be a multiple > of 8 bytes (64 bits) for keys of usual sizes. But d, which is e inverse > mod lambda(n) would be shorter sometimes. lambda(n) is lcm(p-1,q-1) so > lambda will be at least 1 bit shorter (since p-1 and q-1 are both even) > and perhaps 2 bits shorter with probability about 1/2 (in case p-1 and > q-1 have other small common factors). Independently, d may be shorter > than lambda. Put it all together and maybe one key in 70 or so would > have a d value which is 1 byte shorter, requiring resynchronization. OK, well, I haven't see one yet. As I mentioned before, test vectors/packets in the I-D would be _really_ nice. >> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). > > The current text is not inaccurate, but does rely on knowing what > "resynchronized" means. Since this is a non-standard term we should > explain it better. Here is the current text: > > Encryption/decryption of the secret data is done in CFB mode using > the key created from the passphrase and the Initial Vector from the > packet. A different mode is used with V3 keys (which are only RSA) > than with other key formats. With V3 keys, the MPI bit count prefix > (i.e., the first two octets) is not encrypted. Only the MPI > non-prefix data is encrypted. Furthermore, the CFB state is > resynchronized at the beginning of each new MPI value, so that the > CFB block boundary is aligned with the start of the MPI data. > > The last sentence is the one which is problematic. What if we changed > it to: > > Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, > the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV > for that MPI taken as the last 8 octets of the ciphertext of the > previous MPI value. > > Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 bytes, so > I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. "re-synchronised to its initial state" is perhaps not entirely clear - wouldn't it better to just say the IV is set to the last 8 octets of the previous ciphertext and not mention initial state? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 07 06:44:10 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6RGS-0002Jg-Fl for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 06:44:10 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16305 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BOqKU024570; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17BOqcm024569; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgate.enhyper.net ([80.168.109.121]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BOp16024563 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgate.enhyper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB675F99D; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:24:50 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E88331.7010102@systemics.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:23:29 +0100 From: Ian G Organization: http://financialcryptography.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Laurie Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E78E94.5070902@algroup.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43E78E94.5070902@algroup.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Laurie wrote: > OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was > going on here. > > In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. I would agree. The fantastic PGP chaining mode is my number one favourite feature to get the axe just as soon as possible. Your story has been repeated many times... I recall massive arguments about it when we implemented it in Java originally; for less than 10 lines of code it generated days of anger as various people argued this point or that point. > Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one > has ever implemented v3 keys from it). (I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) iang From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 07 06:51:53 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6RNx-00053t-D2 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 06:51:53 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16787 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BYCMk025490; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17BYCMm025489; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:34:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BYBLQ025483 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4A133C3F; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:34:10 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E8853A.2060400@algroup.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:32:10 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060207020728.EF80857FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207020728.EF80857FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Finney wrote: > Daniel Nagy writes: >> I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where >> there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets >> at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected >> symmetrically encrypted packets instead. > > I haven't participated in the recent discussion, partly because I think > it is a little premature until we get the current spec put to bed. > > I am not sure I like this idea. We'll need to retain the old mechanism > for many years at least, requiring us to support yet another set of > incompatible mechanisms. And I don't know if the new proposal really > simplifies things much. Surely you should already support this method? > Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys > encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support > multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is > not necessary at present. It isn't? > It might require us to bite the bullet and > clarify exactly what sequences of packets are legal, with possible > backwards-compatibility problems. Hmm. My implementation will eat _any_ sequence of packets. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From nicholas@paramed.biz Tue Feb 07 08:43:36 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6T83-0006fS-U1 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:43:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26066 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.26.158.214] (helo=friend) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6TKH-0000G8-Jj for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:56:17 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62bec$b96f6780$0100007f@dezigner> From: "Alexander" To: Subject: Cialis 20 Pills 20 mg $129.95 Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:45:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------ms090409080305000403050205" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 509eeaf340e89c687918a6101c6def35 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ms090409080305000403050205 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ms070707040400040101050400" --------------ms070707040400040101050400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --------------ms070707040400040101050400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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helo=friend) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1F6T94-00067N-KZ for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:44:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62bec$a6f52e00$0100007f@mwatson> From: "Simon" To: Subject: All products for your health! 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majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17KG4Z6095798; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KG26P095792 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id B07EF57FAF; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, hal@finney.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Message-Id: <20060207201945.B07EF57FAF@finney.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > Hal Finney wrote: > > The IV is used in the standard way. You may be > > thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you > > say here. V3 private keys are standard. > > Experiment and code reading/running says it is correct. I rechecked my source code and I can confirm my statement. The IV is used in the standard way for V3 secret key CFB encryption. The line is PGPInitCFB(*cfbp, key, buf + alglen); This initializes the CFB context in the first argument, using the key in the 2nd argument and the IV in the 3rd argument. In this case the IV is buf+alglen where buf is a pointer into the secret key data and alglen is the offset past the S2K stuff. If we were using an all-zeros IV as Ben suggests then we would have had to set up a buffer to act as the IV, fill it with zeros, and pass that to the PGPInitCFB function. We don't do that. (This is an important point because if it doesn't work as I have described, then the spec is completely wrong and it would be extremely important to change it ASAP. So I hope Ben or others can confirm that the spec is right on this matter.) > > The last sentence is the one which is problematic. What if we changed > > it to: > > > > Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, > > the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV > > for that MPI taken as the last 8 octets of the ciphertext of the > > previous MPI value. > > > > Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 bytes, so > > I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. (As noted, I was mistaken about this 8-octet restriction.) > "re-synchronised to its initial state" is perhaps not entirely clear - > wouldn't it better to just say the IV is set to the last 8 octets of the > previous ciphertext and not mention initial state? The problem is that "IV" is not necessarily well defined in the middle of a CFB. You are using it synonymously with the chaining vector (or whatever other term you want to use). The "I" of "IV" means Initial, so the IV is the value used "initially" to begin the CFB operation. I am afraid that people would not know what to do if all we said was to change the IV to such-and-such, in the middle of a CFB stream. That's why I said to go back to the "initial state" of the CFB and then what the IV would be. In the initial state, the concept of the IV is well defined. I think that will be clearer to an implementor. Maybe "re-synchronized" is unclear; how about if we said "... the CFB state is reset to its initial state, with the IV for that MPI taken as..." Hal Finney From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 07 15:42:26 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6ZfO-0003Dm-2i for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:42:26 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28023 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KQU7X096909; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17KQUXw096908; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KQT2k096899 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 2113357FAE; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:30:13 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, hal@finney.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org, nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com Message-Id: <20060207203013.2113357FAE@finney.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:30:13 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > Hal Finney wrote: > > Daniel Nagy writes: > >> I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where > >> there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets > >> at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected > >> symmetrically encrypted packets instead. > > > > I haven't participated in the recent discussion, partly because I think > > it is a little premature until we get the current spec put to bed. > > > > I am not sure I like this idea. We'll need to retain the old mechanism > > for many years at least, requiring us to support yet another set of > > incompatible mechanisms. And I don't know if the new proposal really > > simplifies things much. > > Surely you should already support this method? If you mean, can you send a secret key around in an encrypted file, and then decrypt and import it in a single operation... yes, there's a good chance that works. However some of the more advanced ideas, like having multiple secret keys in a single file, each encrypted in a different packet, I have no idea what would happen, it is not something we have tested to my knowledge. > > Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys > > encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support > > multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is > > not necessary at present. > > It isn't? No, I don't know of any application for that. > > It might require us to bite the bullet and > > clarify exactly what sequences of packets are legal, with possible > > backwards-compatibility problems. > > Hmm. My implementation will eat _any_ sequence of packets. So what do you do if you decrypt a file and find a sequence of encrypted packets? Or perhaps some packets signed, some encrypted, some both, all concatenated? Do you concatenate the results into a single output file (erasing the boundaries between the plaintexts, as well as information about what was signed and what wasn't); do you concatenate them along with some header information to identify where each piece starts and ends (which won't be reliable due to spoofing); do you output each piece to separate output files? Or ask the user what he wants to do? This kind of operation introduces considerable complexity in terms of providing a reasonable interface. We generally assume we are dealing with a single message consisting of one or more PKESK/SKESK packets with an encrypted packet, or a similar signed message. Once you go beyond this and try to deal with arbitrary sequences of packets it becomes highly problematic to make sure the user is getting the full benefit from the cryptography. If you have a custom program which is using this for internal, program-to-program communication, then go ahead and knock yourself out, use the data structures as you wish. But for person to person communication I think it is difficult and often unwise to try to deal with arbitrary sequences. Hal Finney From john@pistonheads.biz Tue Feb 07 16:57:39 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6aq9-0007Q0-O9 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:57:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05959 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6b2T-00016V-Ot for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:10:23 -0500 Received: from ustron.anfa.pl ([62.233.244.133] helo=friend) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1F6aps-0007AE-Hp for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:57:20 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62c31$6c61b480$0100007f@m-2> From: "Hugh" To: Subject: Order V1agra Now Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:57:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------ms080406070301050805040206" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: f49c97ce49302a02285a2d36a99eef8c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ms080406070301050805040206 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ms060406010400040606070508" --------------ms060406010400040606070508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --------------ms060406010400040606070508 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6bZ6-0001jE-Ve for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:44:04 -0500 Received: from ocn.ne.jp ([221.207.130.53]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08527 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 17:42:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 17:42:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200602072242.RAA08527@ietf.org> Received: from uydhynjg9 (unknown [233.228.195.117]) by smtp48 (Coremail) with SMTP id EH2fEIgtvo7ORgM9.1 for ; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 07:44:05 +0800 (CST) X-Originating-IP: [233.228.195.117] Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?IBskQkJ0MGYkRyQ5GyhC?= From: =?gb2312?B?aW5mb3JtYXRpb24=?= To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQobJEJGTUEzJE4lYSE8JWskRz89JDdMdSQ0JDYkJCReJDskcyEjO2QkTyU7JWwlVjZmM1pJdCRI 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[208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09416 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 17:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17Mp6bV017787; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17Mp644017786; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:51:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz (harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.13]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17Mp5G2017776 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4400C34AF2; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05773-05; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1563E34A86; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:56 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF36E37742; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:56 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F6bfn-0000JK-00; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, iang@systemics.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org In-Reply-To: <43E88331.7010102@systemics.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ian G writes: >Ben Laurie wrote: >> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >(I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the english description. (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & paste the code). Peter. From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 07 19:14:50 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6cyw-00073z-4w for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:14:50 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13487 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1802FM6027775; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1802F1o027774; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from merrymeet.com (merrymeet.com [63.73.97.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1802EBA027768 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@callas.org) Received: from keys.merrymeet.com (63.73.97.166) by merrymeet.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.7); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:11 -0800 Received: from [63.251.255.205] ([63.251.255.205]) by keys.merrymeet.com (PGP Universal service); Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:02:10 -0800 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by keys.merrymeet.com on Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:02:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: OpenPGP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jon Callas Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:00 -0800 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2 Feb 2006, at 8:07 AM, Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > > I know that this has been discussed earlier, but I think it is > important to > weed out and summarize the requirements for the upcoming V5 key > packet format. > > [...] > Comments? > Yes, that while I agree with most if not all of what you suggest, that this is post-2440bis. Hold those thoughts until we get this document done. Jon From necojp@citiz.net Tue Feb 07 23:33:11 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6h0x-0008Ak-QL for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:33:11 -0500 Received: from a-net.ne.jp ([221.212.59.163]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11761 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:31:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:31:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200602080431.XAA11761@ietf.org> Received: from lpbrjwmifv1 (unknown [26.227.184.59]) by smtp20 (Coremail) with SMTP id hk44OEvUMbC46XRO.1 for ; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:27:49 +0800 (CST) X-Originating-IP: [26.227.184.59] Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCIiM1Lkp9JE48cUwjJHIkKjZiJEskNyRGJF8kXiQ7JHMkKyEqGyhC?= From: =?gb2312?B?aW5mb3JtYXRpb24=?= To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2DD31.AD415070" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft 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X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62CB6.91E4D180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable.TOP.10.NEW.TITLES.ON.SALE.NOW!.1.Office.Pro.2003.2.Adobe.Photoshop.9.0.3.Windows.XP.Pro.4.Adobe.Acrobat.7.Pro.5.Flash.MX.2004.6.Corel.Draw.12.7.Norton.Antivirus.2005.8.Windows.2003.Se ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #1 Average Customer Review: (based on 43 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft Windows XP Professional by Microsoft ListPrice: $200.00 OurPrice: $49.95 YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #2 Average Customer Review: (based on 33 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0 by Adobe ListPrice: $599.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #3 Average Customer Review: (based on 46 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62CB6.91E4D180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

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  1 Office Pro 2003
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  3 Windows XP Pro
  4 Adobe Acrobat 7 Pro
  5 Flash MX 2004
  6 Corel Draw 12
  7 Norton Antivirus 2005
  8 Windows 2003 Server
  9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
  10 Adobe Illustrator 11
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Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
   by Microsoft

ListPrice: $550.00
OurPrice: $69.95
YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%)



Availability: Available for INSTANT download!!


Sales Rank: #1
Average Customer Review: 3D"5
(based on 47 reviews)

Microsoft Windows XP Professional
   by Microsoft

ListPrice: $200.00
OurPrice: $49.95
YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%)



Availability: Available for INSTANT download!


Sales Rank: #2
Average Customer Review: 3D"5
(based on 44 rev! iews)

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
   by Adobe

ListPrice: $599.00
OurPrice: $69.95
YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%)



Availability: Available for INSTANT download!


Sales Rank: #3
Average Customer Review: 3D"5
(based on 49 reviews)

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62CB6.91E4D180-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 08 05:36:40 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F6mgh-00086S-ND for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 05:36:40 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08638 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 05:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k18AHMpa008880; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:17:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k18AHMhB008879; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:17:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgate.enhyper.net ([80.168.109.121]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k18AHKbf008867 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:17:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgate.enhyper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091B65FA39; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:17:18 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E9C4DE.2020107@systemics.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:15:58 +0100 From: Ian G Organization: http://financialcryptography.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann Cc: ben@algroup.co.uk, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Gutmann wrote: > Ian G writes: > >>Ben Laurie wrote: >> >>>Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >>>has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >> >>(I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) > > > Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for > the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer > can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the > english description. > > (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & > paste the code). That I agree with. It's how it's done, anyway, as evidenced from the several references to "and I went back into the old code..." iang From koikeya_1@hotmail.co.jp Thu Feb 09 03:10:28 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F76sm-0001Sz-1t for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 03:10:28 -0500 Received: from ocn.ne.jp ([221.212.58.236]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27571 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 03:08:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 03:08:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200602090808.DAA27571@ietf.org> Received: from nsgxzyf6 (unknown [184.244.211.112]) by smtp32 (Coremail) with SMTP id 0WkZdNY67Bv4EfOW.1 for ; Sun, 02 Feb 2003 02:30:20 +0800 (CST) X-Originating-IP: [184.244.211.112] Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCNjUkKCRGJCIkMiRrIXkbKEI=?= From: =?gb2312?B?aW5mb3JtYXRpb24=?= To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C0CF.9BAB6720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C0CF.9BAB6720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 GyRCOkc2YSROPVAycSQkN08kQyRGPVAycSQoJEokLyRKJEMkPyRIO1ckJCReJDskcyQrISkhKRso Qg0KDQobJEJNfU0zJE8bKEJodHRwOi8vd3d3LmF3ZzUubmV0Lz8yMDA5DQoNCg0KGyRCMyckMyQz JEc9UDJxJEMkRiRrJCskaRsoQiheLV4pGyRCInYbKEINCg0KGyRCOiM9UDJxJCQ3TyVpJXMlLyRH MGwwTCRLJEokQyRGJEZAKCQkO3YkSyRKJEMkRiRrJF8kPyQkISohKiEqGyhCDQoNChskQkFhJC8k NyQ/Sn0kLCQkJCQkKyRiJDckbCRKJCQkaCF5GyhCDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQobJEIlYSE8JWtJVE1X JEpKfSRPJDMkQSRpIi0bKEINCmNvbmNlcHRfbmV0QHlhaG9vLmNh ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C0CF.9BAB6720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGUgY29udGVu dD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PWlzby0yMDIyLWpwIj4NCjxNRVRBIGNvbnRlbnQ9Ik1TSFRN TCA2LjAwLjI5MDAuMjE4MCIgbmFtZT1HRU5FUkFUT1I+DQo8U1RZTEU+PC9TVFlMRT4NCjwvSEVB RD4NCjxCT0RZIGJnQ29sb3I9I2ZmZmZmZj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iTVMgVUkgR290aGlj Ij4bJEI6RzZhJE49UDJxJCQ3TyRDJEY9UDJxJCgkSiQvJEokQyQ/JEg7VyQkJF4kOyRzJCshKSEp GyhCPC9GT05UPjwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJNUyBVSSBHb3RoaWMiPjwvRk9OVD4m bmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iTVMgVUkgR290aGljIj4bJEJNfU0zJE8bKEI8 QSANCmhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYXdnNS5uZXQvPzIwMDkiPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYXdnNS5uZXQv PzIwMDk8L0E+PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJNUyBVSSBHb3RoaWMiPjwv Rk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iTVMgVUkgR290aGljIj48L0ZPTlQ+ Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9Ik1TIFVJIEdvdGhpYyI+GyRCMyckMyQzJEc9 UDJxJEMkRiRrJCskaRsoQiheLV4pGyRCInYbKEI8L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZh Y2U9Ik1TIFVJIEdvdGhpYyI+PC9GT05UPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJN UyBVSSBHb3RoaWMiPhskQjojPVAycSQkN08laSVzJS8kRzBsMEwkSyRKJEMkRiRGQCgkJDt2JEsk SiRDJEYkayRfJD8kJCEqISohKhsoQjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iTVMg VUkgR290aGljIj48L0ZPTlQ+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9Ik1TIFVJIEdv dGhpYyI+GyRCQWEkLyQ3JD9KfSQsJCQkJCQrJGIkNyRsJEokJCRoIXkbKEI8L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+ DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9Ik1TIFVJIEdvdGhpYyI+PC9GT05UPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPg0KPERJ Vj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJNUyBVSSBHb3RoaWMiPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZP TlQgZmFjZT0iTVMgVUkgR290aGljIj48L0ZPTlQ+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZh Y2U9Ik1TIFVJIEdvdGhpYyI+PC9GT05UPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJN UyBVSSBHb3RoaWMiPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iTVMgVUkg R290aGljIj48L0ZPTlQ+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9Ik1TIFVJIEdvdGhp YyI+GyRCJWEhPCVrSVRNVyRKSn0kTyQzJEEkaSItGyhCPEJSPjwvRk9OVD48QSANCmhyZWY9Im1h aWx0bzpjb25jZXB0X25ldEB5YWhvby5jYSI+PEZPTlQgDQpmYWNlPSJNUyBVSSBHb3RoaWMiPmNv bmNlcHRfbmV0QHlhaG9vLmNhPC9GT05UPjwvQT48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C0CF.9BAB6720-- From nicholas@paramed.biz Fri Feb 10 04:30:07 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F7UbP-0007n7-To for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:30:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02644 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7UoN-0001Pk-32 for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:43:32 -0500 Received: from chello212186091117.chello.pl ([212.186.91.117] helo=friend) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1F7UbK-0000Pa-CA for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:30:03 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62e24$7992c500$0100007f@sanchoz> From: "Richard" To: Subject: Medicines before Valentine Day !!! Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:29:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------ms050202060402060402050602" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: e9d8c60d9288f2c774f26bab15869505 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ms050202060402060402050602 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ms050704050204010906010108" --------------ms050704050204010906010108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --------------ms050704050204010906010108 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
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3D""
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Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from 68-190-242-121.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com ([68.190.242.121] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Elb-0006gQ-Lt for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:47:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c62fe9$e2776a00$0100007f@localhost> From: "Jesus Turner" To: Subject: cheap oem soft shipping //orldwide Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 02:33:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62FE9.E2776A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62FE9.E2776A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1 2 Photo shop 9.0 3 XP 4 Acro bat 7 5 MX 2O04 6 Draw 12 7 Anti virus 2005 8 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Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
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Microsoft Windows XP Professional
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Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
   by Adobe

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62FE9.E2776A00-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 15 00:36:52 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9FLN-0000aj-Kt for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:36:52 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA08854 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1F5H6UH011182; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1F5H6bB011181; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1F5H5qt011175 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F54B33C3F; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:17:04 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F2B9CF.8000502@algroup.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:19:11 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann CC: iang@systemics.com, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Gutmann wrote: > Ian G writes: >> Ben Laurie wrote: >>> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >>> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >> (I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) > > Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for > the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer > can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the > english description. > > (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & > paste the code). Isn't there some dumb IETF rule against that? -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 15 06:04:55 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9KSs-0006S9-VS for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 06:04:55 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28951 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 06:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAnMp4035932; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1FAnMai035931; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:49:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAnMSO035925 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A6033C1C; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:49:21 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F307B1.50502@algroup.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:51:29 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060207201945.B07EF57FAF@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207201945.B07EF57FAF@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> Hal Finney wrote: >>> The IV is used in the standard way. You may be >>> thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you >>> say here. V3 private keys are standard. >> Experiment and code reading/running says it is correct. > > I rechecked my source code and I can confirm my statement. The IV is > used in the standard way for V3 secret key CFB encryption. The line is > > PGPInitCFB(*cfbp, key, buf + alglen); > > This initializes the CFB context in the first argument, using the key > in the 2nd argument and the IV in the 3rd argument. In this case the > IV is buf+alglen where buf is a pointer into the secret key data and > alglen is the offset past the S2K stuff. If we were using an all-zeros > IV as Ben suggests then we would have had to set up a buffer to act as > the IV, fill it with zeros, and pass that to the PGPInitCFB function. > We don't do that. > > (This is an important point because if it doesn't work as I have > described, then the spec is completely wrong and it would be extremely > important to change it ASAP. So I hope Ben or others can confirm that > the spec is right on this matter.) No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get a working implementation for v3! Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 15 06:06:05 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9KU1-00072o-5F for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 06:06:05 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA29051 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 06:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAl2Pq035860; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1FAl2Yn035859; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAkwYs035853 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A84E33C3F; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:46:57 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F30720.6070900@algroup.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:49:04 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org, nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060207203013.2113357FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207203013.2113357FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Finney wrote: >>> Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys >>> encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support >>> multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is >>> not necessary at present. >> It isn't? > > No, I don't know of any application for that. How about secret key storage? :-) Nothing in the current standards would prevent it. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 15 15:27:02 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9TEr-0004RS-VP for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:27:02 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28342 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FK9UCb079331; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1FK9U90079330; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FK9RKo079316 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 0D48557FAE; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:13:41 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, hal@finney.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Message-Id: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:13:41 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to > work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I > described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have > it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get > a working implementation for v3! To clarify, you are claiming that to unlock a V3 secret key, you don't use the IV as usual in CFB mode. Instead, you use an all-zero buffer for the IV, and then prepend the IV from the secret key subpacket to the data, decrypt that, and discard the first block of output? So in other words, to get the first block of plaintext you do, in effect: buf1 = Enc (all-zeros); buf2 = buf1 xor IV; buf3 = Enc (buf2); buf4 = buf3 xor ciphertext and buf4 will be the first block of plaintext? You say your code does this, and it works???? My code does this: buf1 = Enc (IV); buf2 = buf1 xor ciphertext and buf2 is the first block of plaintext. I just checked GPG and I confirmed that they work the same way I have said. Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood what your own code is doing. Hal Finney From neteast_mit@yahoo.com.cn Wed Feb 15 18:36:55 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9WCd-0006kM-AL for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:36:55 -0500 Received: from ocn.ne.jp ([221.207.156.148]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18279 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:35:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:35:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200602152335.SAA18279@ietf.org> Received: from cvjehmpd2 (unknown [222.137.240.140]) by smtp37 (Coremail) with SMTP id Fatt7de8ow0djboD.1 for ; Sun, 06 Apr 2003 17:46:00 +0800 (CST) X-Originating-IP: [222.137.240.140] Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCOEJEaiM1IzA/TSROMnEwd01NJEtBdz8uJDUkOyRGRDokJCRGGyhC?= From: =?gb2312?B?bnVkeV9kdWI=?= To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2FBF7.8736E1D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2FBF7.8736E1D0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:13:24 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA11573 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GAvLtO043270; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GAvLZS043269; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:57:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GAvIc1043262 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:57:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1302833C44; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:57:17 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F45B0E.7010009@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:59:26 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to >> work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I >> described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have >> it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get >> a working implementation for v3! > > To clarify, you are claiming that to unlock a V3 secret key, you don't > use the IV as usual in CFB mode. Instead, you use an all-zero buffer > for the IV, and then prepend the IV from the secret key subpacket to > the data, decrypt that, and discard the first block of output? Yes. > So in other words, to get the first block of plaintext you do, in effect: > > buf1 = Enc (all-zeros); > buf2 = buf1 xor IV; > buf3 = Enc (buf2); > buf4 = buf3 xor ciphertext > > and buf4 will be the first block of plaintext? You say your code does > this, and it works???? > > My code does this: > > buf1 = Enc (IV); > buf2 = buf1 xor ciphertext > > and buf2 is the first block of plaintext. > > I just checked GPG and I confirmed that they work the same way I have > said. > > Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? > It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described > above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood > your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood > what your own code is doing. The code is publicly available: http://openpgpsdk.nominet.org.uk/. But what I'm going to do is instrument it so we can all see exactly what is going on. Watch this space :-) Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 16 06:49:12 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9hdG-0005I4-4Q for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:49:12 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14274 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GBJS6v045505; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:19:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GBJSeq045504; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:19:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz (chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GBJRm4045485 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:19:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382D9358DE for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:22 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17020-18 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:22 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2E6358D3 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:21 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AAF3774E for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:21 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F9hAX-0001P8-00 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:29 +1300 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:29 +1300 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: >Peter Gutmann wrote: >> Ian G writes: >>> Ben Laurie wrote: >>>> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >>>> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >>> (I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) >> >> Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for >> the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer >> can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the >> english description. >> >> (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & >> paste the code). > >Isn't there some dumb IETF rule against that? I doubt it, many RFCs containing nontrivial algorithms (specifically ones where the easiest way to explain them is with code) already include full implementations, e.g. the MDx RFCs and the Punycode RFC. Peter. (Completely off-topic, but while I'm mentioning Punycode does anyone know what the *real* story behind this was? It seems to be the Intercal of character- set representations... does the background explanation by any chance begin with "Some mathematicians got drunk and made a bet..."? :-). From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 16 13:42:18 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9o54-000445-SS for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:42:18 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20612 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GIRsAE082501; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GIRsNC082500; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GIRrt7082494 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 6063B57FAE; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:32:11 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:32:11 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Gutmann writes: >> Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for >> the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer >> can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the >> english description. >> >> (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & >> paste the code). We do have an extremely verbose, algorithmic description of the encrypted message CFB mode, in section 12.8. It's basically English language pseudocode. We could add another section for the somewhat-similar V3 key decryption, I guess. Seems like a lot of work for functionality that we would hope to be deprecating, but I know people do need it to work with the large body of V3 keys. Hal From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 16 14:03:04 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9oPA-0001Bc-EX for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:03:04 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22678 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GIml94083717; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GImlnM083716; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GImkGs083710 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:48:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.60.132.70]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k1GImik03847 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:44 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k1GImjX6014567 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:45 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k1GImdEV017967 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:39 -0500 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id k1GImcgm017966 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:38 -0500 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 10:32:11AM -0800, "Hal Finney" wrote: > > Peter Gutmann writes: > >> Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for > >> the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer > >> can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the > >> english description. > >> > >> (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & > >> paste the code). > > We do have an extremely verbose, algorithmic description of the encrypted > message CFB mode, in section 12.8. It's basically English language > pseudocode. We could add another section for the somewhat-similar V3 > key decryption, I guess. Seems like a lot of work for functionality > that we would hope to be deprecating, but I know people do need it to > work with the large body of V3 keys. If the language in 1991 is suitable, perhaps we could just point to 1991. Is it legal to refer in this way to a document that we're obsoleting in 2440bis? David From goij002@yahoo.co.jp Thu Feb 16 16:51:36 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1F9r2G-0005ZW-9m for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:51:36 -0500 Received: from ocn.ne.jp ([221.212.57.91]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15064 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:49:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:49:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200602162149.QAA15064@ietf.org> Received: from fpldibfvuk5 (unknown [19.209.98.139]) by smtp81 (Coremail) with SMTP id lAkaeWndxVZcGov6.1 for ; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 16:09:39 +0800 (CST) X-Originating-IP: [19.209.98.139] Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCS1w1JCRHGyhC?= From: =?gb2312?B?aW5mb3JtYXRpb24=?= To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C96D.AA144AB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 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az48L0E+PC9GT05UPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJNUyBVSSBHb3RoaWMi PjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iTVMgVUkgR290aGljIj48Rk9O VCBmYWNlPRskQkFXQk4bKEIgc2l6ZT0yPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEJSPjxC Uj48QlI+PEJSPjwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C96D.AA144AB0-- From mail@blueacacia.net Fri Feb 17 07:19:26 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1FA4a5-0002fb-Tl for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:19:25 -0500 Received: from mailengine2.web2000.activeisp.com (webmail2.activeisp.com [213.188.134.18]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21761 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from RESEAUX-06 (unverified [82.234.123.130]) by webmail.activeisp.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 6.1.20) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:20:41 +0100 Message-ID: From: "noreply@pariscountryclub.com" To: "openpgp-archive@odin.ietf.org" Reply-To: "noreply@pariscountryclub.com" Subject: Paris Golf Country Club Date: Fri, 17 feb 2006 07:38:09 +0100 Importance: normal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--=6655-dmnl-2411-houq" ----=6655-dmnl-2411-houq Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----=6655-dmnl-2411-houq Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable PARIS GOLF COUNTRY CLUB
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
 

Février représente toujours le d&#= 233;but de quelques beaux jours, mais c’est également le moment de= se faire prendre en charge par un « coach attitré ». Il vous= aidera et vous conseillera pour un programme de remise en forme équili= bré et adapté à vos attentes (surtout) après les fê= tes. Définissez vos objectifs et votre « Coach » s’adapt= era. 2006 doit donc être pour chacun d’entre nous une année p= leine de bonnes résolutions.
=09Toute l’équipe du Paris Country Club formule le vœux de r&= #233;pondre à vos attentes et vous accompagner tout au long de cette an= née « forme ».

 
<= /a>
 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
 

=09Le Paris Country Club “en ligne”. Pour faciliter la vie des ses= membres, le club vient de mettre en ligne son planning de réservation = de courts. Rien de plus simple, les membres du Club, munis « d’un = code d’accès » et un « mot de passe », se connecten= t et peuvent organiser leurs réservation de courts en fonction des acco= rds passés avec le club. Attention, une deuxième réservation = ne pourra être faite que lorsque la première est consommée. =09

=09Depuis le premier janvier, le Golf du Paris Country Club met égaleme= nt son planning de réservation de départs… Il est désorm= ais possible de réserver pour un départ de 9 trous ou 2 fois 9 tro= us. Le principe est simple, accessible à tous et très convivial. D= e plus, c’est le moment pour ceux qui le souhaitent e pouvoir essayer l= es quatre autres golfs ALBATROS (APREMONT, BETHEMONT, CELY et ROCHEFORT). =09

=09Passez à l’accueil du Golf et achetez votre PASS pour les cinq = parcours. Vous bénéficiez sur tous les parcours d’une grille = tarifaire qui va de 25 € à 90 € et qui varie chaque jour et c= haque heure en fonction de la saison, de la météo, et de l’oc= cupation du parcours.

 
=
=
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
 

=09Exposition au Manoir : EXPOSITION D'ANTO :
=09L'artiste Anto vous présente ses toiles du 1er au 27 février 20= 06 au Manoir du Paris Country Club. =09

=09Le Manège de l’Hippodrome est décidément très co= nvoité. Entre décembre et janvier, ce sont plus de 20 sociét&= #233;s qui nous font confiance. Grâce à sa salle modulable (unique= en région parisienne avec son parking de 300 places) de 250 à 600= personnes assises. =09

 
3D""
Si vous n'arrivez pas à lire ce message en HTML, cliquez ici ou
copiez l'adresse url suivante dans votre navigateur Internet pour le visuali= ser correctement : http://www.pariscountryclub.com/newsletters/news_fevrier/= pgcc.html


Conformément à la loi Informatique et Libertés du 6 Juillet 1= 978, vous disposez d'un droit d'accès et de rectification aux donné= ;es vous concernant.

Si vous souhaitez vous désabonner, cliquez i= ci
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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C63387.6DA88500-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 17 10:37:46 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1FA7g1-00021h-Cd for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:37:46 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26936 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H7vVEe037042; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1H7vVnj037041; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H7vVoS037034 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D3833C44 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:57:30 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F5826C.302@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:59:40 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> <43F45B0E.7010009@algroup.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43F45B0E.7010009@algroup.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Laurie wrote: >> Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? >> It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described >> above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood >> your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood >> what your own code is doing. > > The code is publicly available: http://openpgpsdk.nominet.org.uk/. This should have been http://openpgp.nominet.org.uk/, sorry. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 17 10:38:03 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1FA7gJ-00026f-S4 for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:38:03 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26980 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H8s4Xt040079; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1H8s4uI040078; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from merrymeet.com (merrymeet.com [63.73.97.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H8s4OE040072 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@callas.org) Received: from keys.merrymeet.com (63.73.97.166) by merrymeet.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.7); Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 Received: from [63.73.97.189] ([63.73.97.189]) by keys.merrymeet.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by keys.merrymeet.com on Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> References: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jon Callas Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 To: David Shaw X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Feb 2006, at 10:48 AM, David Shaw wrote: > > If the language in 1991 is suitable, perhaps we could just point to > 1991. Is it legal to refer in this way to a document that we're > obsoleting in 2440bis? I don't think so. 1991 was never standards track. I don't want to re- open the old dead horse of whether you can obsolete something that was never standards track. It's too much like Alice's comment on more tea. Furthermore, it would committing a sin that drives me up the wall, of requiring someone to go back N documents. If the language in 1991 is close, then why not edit it into something suitable? I think that's much better than leaving pointers all over the place for people who read it a decade from now to have to deal with. Jon From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 17 12:21:09 2006 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1FA9I5-0002Y6-FF for openpgp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:21:09 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12671 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1HH4qNl075413; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1HH4qDU075412; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1HH4pRE075406 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.60.132.70]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k1HH4nk09093 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:49 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k1HH4jX6019823 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:45 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k1HH4hWk020323 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:43 -0500 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id k1HH4h76020322 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:43 -0500 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060217170443.GC20125@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 12:54:01AM -0800, Jon Callas wrote: > > On 16 Feb 2006, at 10:48 AM, David Shaw wrote: > > > > >If the language in 1991 is suitable, perhaps we could just point to > >1991. Is it legal to refer in this way to a document that we're > >obsoleting in 2440bis? > > I don't think so. 1991 was never standards track. I don't want to re- > open the old dead horse of whether you can obsolete something that > was never standards track. It's too much like Alice's comment on more > tea. > > Furthermore, it would committing a sin that drives me up the wall, of > requiring someone to go back N documents. If the language in 1991 is > close, then why not edit it into something suitable? I think that's > much better than leaving pointers all over the place for people who > read it a decade from now to have to deal with. It may be moot - taking a look at 1991 now, it doesn't seem to say anything about storing V3 secret keys at all! David From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sun Feb 19 11:09:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAr7u-0002DU-Sm for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:09:34 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAr7t-00064O-GR for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:09:34 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1JFlcKU012682; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:47:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1JFlcDf012681; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:47:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1JFlYOG012670 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:47:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A3633C40; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:47:33 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F89315.3000800@algroup.co.uk> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:47:33 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to >> work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I >> described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have >> it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get >> a working implementation for v3! > > To clarify, you are claiming that to unlock a V3 secret key, you don't > use the IV as usual in CFB mode. Instead, you use an all-zero buffer > for the IV, and then prepend the IV from the secret key subpacket to > the data, decrypt that, and discard the first block of output? > > So in other words, to get the first block of plaintext you do, in effect: > > buf1 = Enc (all-zeros); > buf2 = buf1 xor IV; > buf3 = Enc (buf2); > buf4 = buf3 xor ciphertext > > and buf4 will be the first block of plaintext? You say your code does > this, and it works???? > > My code does this: > > buf1 = Enc (IV); > buf2 = buf1 xor ciphertext > > and buf2 is the first block of plaintext. > > I just checked GPG and I confirmed that they work the same way I have > said. > > Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? > It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described > above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood > your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood > what your own code is doing. In fact, after discussion with Hal, we've established that: a) Both of us are correct about what our code is doing b) The two algorithms are effectively the same (for decryption, at least). c) There was a bug in my code related to resyncing that setting the IV "the hard way" worked around - which is why it appeared that v3 keys were crypted differently. So, we're in agreement about how it works now. My complaint about "resyncing" stands, however. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.links.org/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sat Feb 25 12:50:49 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3ZB-0001yZ-6N for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:50:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3Z9-0007PV-RL for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:50:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k1PHMO5T016198; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:22:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k1PHMO34016197; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:22:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailer2-1.key-systems.net (mailer2-1.key-systems.net [81.3.43.253]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k1PHMMOZ016172 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:22:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cam@mathematica.scientia.net) Received: (qmail 5278 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2006 17:22:17 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-056-016-021.pools.arcor-ip.net (HELO [84.56.16.21]) (84.56.16.21) by mailer2-1.key-systems.net (qpsmtpd/0.31.1) with ESMTP; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:22:17 +0000 Message-ID: <44009247.5040707@mathematica.scientia.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:22:15 +0100 From: Christoph Anton Mitterer User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051019) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Questions about some signature subpackets X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Hi everybody. I've got a question about some signature subpackets: Especially key expiration time (9) and key flags (27). According to the standard they're allowed on selfsigs (this includes the sigtypes 0x10-0x13, 0x1F and the 0x18). Ok most implementations (like gnupg) put this on a 0x13-type signature. Why is it allowed to put key-expiration-time and key-flags on 0x10-0x13? I think for the primary key only a 0x1F sig is suited. When specifing things like features or preferred algorithms, one can imagine that each user has different settings. But is there any case where User IDs could/should specify different key-flags and/or key-expiration-time? If so, could you tell me such an example? Best wishes, Christoph Anton Mitterer. btw: Wouldn't it be good to introduce other User Attribute Image Formats (especially PNG and JPEG2000)? Perhaps it would be even a good idea to add new User Attribute Types, like one for XMPP (Jabber) addresses (this has been standardized by the IETF...). From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 27 11:27:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDlDT-0004iG-Pa for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:27:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDlDS-0000sP-98 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:27:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k1RG2wUM023793; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k1RG2wFG023792; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com (ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com [205.177.121.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k1RG2v5K023784 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:02:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robholliday@isocore.com) Message-Id: <200602271602.k1RG2v5K023784@balder-227.proper.com> Received: from [65.213.193.135] (helo=ISODELL001) by ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FDkpm-0008LF-Jh for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:02:51 -0500 From: "Robert Holliday" To: Subject: International Conference on Network Security 2006 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:02:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcY7t0Ks1z9sAyncQjyHzfqDIr8Ikw== X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - isocore.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7698d1420ecbbce1995432e99bb6d1a1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Registration is Now Open Reston Virginia, April 17-19 Early Registration Benefits Now Available The conference offers cutting edge discussion and presentations on the contemporary issues in network security and critical information infrastructure. 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------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k1RG2wUM023793; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k1RG2wFG023792; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com (ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com [205.177.121.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k1RG2v5K023784 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:02:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robholliday@isocore.com) Message-Id: <200602271602.k1RG2v5K023784@balder-227.proper.com> Received: from [65.213.193.135] (helo=ISODELL001) by ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FDkpm-0008LF-Jh for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:02:51 -0500 From: "Robert Holliday" To: Subject: International Conference on Network Security 2006 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:02:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcY7t0Ks1z9sAyncQjyHzfqDIr8Ikw== X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ns1.cpanel.btnaccess.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - isocore.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Registration is Now Open Reston Virginia, April 17-19 Early Registration Benefits Now Available The conference offers cutting edge discussion and presentations on the contemporary issues in network security and critical information infrastructure. Technical Program: http://www.isocore.com/networksecurity2006/program.htm Discounts still available for early registration. Registration: http://www.isocore.com/networksecurity2006/onlineregis.htm Hotel space is limited but currently available and reservation can be made on-line. Hotel Reservations: http://www.isocore.com/networksecurity2006/hotel.htm To obtain special rates for student or group please contact Robert Holliday at rholliday@isocore.com. www.networksecurity2006.com ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C63B8D.5A65B400-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k1PHMO5T016198; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:22:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k1PHMO34016197; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:22:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailer2-1.key-systems.net (mailer2-1.key-systems.net [81.3.43.253]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k1PHMMOZ016172 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:22:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cam@mathematica.scientia.net) Received: (qmail 5278 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2006 17:22:17 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-056-016-021.pools.arcor-ip.net (HELO [84.56.16.21]) (84.56.16.21) by mailer2-1.key-systems.net (qpsmtpd/0.31.1) with ESMTP; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:22:17 +0000 Message-ID: <44009247.5040707@mathematica.scientia.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:22:15 +0100 From: Christoph Anton Mitterer User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051019) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Questions about some signature subpackets X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi everybody. I've got a question about some signature subpackets: Especially key expiration time (9) and key flags (27). According to the standard they're allowed on selfsigs (this includes the sigtypes 0x10-0x13, 0x1F and the 0x18). Ok most implementations (like gnupg) put this on a 0x13-type signature. Why is it allowed to put key-expiration-time and key-flags on 0x10-0x13? I think for the primary key only a 0x1F sig is suited. When specifing things like features or preferred algorithms, one can imagine that each user has different settings. But is there any case where User IDs could/should specify different key-flags and/or key-expiration-time? If so, could you tell me such an example? Best wishes, Christoph Anton Mitterer. btw: Wouldn't it be good to introduce other User Attribute Image Formats (especially PNG and JPEG2000)? Perhaps it would be even a good idea to add new User Attribute Types, like one for XMPP (Jabber) addresses (this has been standardized by the IETF...). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1JFlcKU012682; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:47:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1JFlcDf012681; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:47:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1JFlYOG012670 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:47:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A3633C40; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:47:33 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F89315.3000800@algroup.co.uk> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:47:33 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to >> work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I >> described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have >> it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get >> a working implementation for v3! > > To clarify, you are claiming that to unlock a V3 secret key, you don't > use the IV as usual in CFB mode. Instead, you use an all-zero buffer > for the IV, and then prepend the IV from the secret key subpacket to > the data, decrypt that, and discard the first block of output? > > So in other words, to get the first block of plaintext you do, in effect: > > buf1 = Enc (all-zeros); > buf2 = buf1 xor IV; > buf3 = Enc (buf2); > buf4 = buf3 xor ciphertext > > and buf4 will be the first block of plaintext? You say your code does > this, and it works???? > > My code does this: > > buf1 = Enc (IV); > buf2 = buf1 xor ciphertext > > and buf2 is the first block of plaintext. > > I just checked GPG and I confirmed that they work the same way I have > said. > > Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? > It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described > above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood > your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood > what your own code is doing. In fact, after discussion with Hal, we've established that: a) Both of us are correct about what our code is doing b) The two algorithms are effectively the same (for decryption, at least). c) There was a bug in my code related to resyncing that setting the IV "the hard way" worked around - which is why it appeared that v3 keys were crypted differently. So, we're in agreement about how it works now. My complaint about "resyncing" stands, however. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.links.org/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1HH4qNl075413; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1HH4qDU075412; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1HH4pRE075406 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.60.132.70]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k1HH4nk09093 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:49 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k1HH4jX6019823 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:45 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k1HH4hWk020323 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:43 -0500 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id k1HH4h76020322 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:43 -0500 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060217170443.GC20125@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 12:54:01AM -0800, Jon Callas wrote: > > On 16 Feb 2006, at 10:48 AM, David Shaw wrote: > > > > >If the language in 1991 is suitable, perhaps we could just point to > >1991. Is it legal to refer in this way to a document that we're > >obsoleting in 2440bis? > > I don't think so. 1991 was never standards track. I don't want to re- > open the old dead horse of whether you can obsolete something that > was never standards track. It's too much like Alice's comment on more > tea. > > Furthermore, it would committing a sin that drives me up the wall, of > requiring someone to go back N documents. If the language in 1991 is > close, then why not edit it into something suitable? I think that's > much better than leaving pointers all over the place for people who > read it a decade from now to have to deal with. It may be moot - taking a look at 1991 now, it doesn't seem to say anything about storing V3 secret keys at all! David Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H8s4Xt040079; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1H8s4uI040078; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from merrymeet.com (merrymeet.com [63.73.97.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H8s4OE040072 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@callas.org) Received: from keys.merrymeet.com (63.73.97.166) by merrymeet.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.7); Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 Received: from [63.73.97.189] ([63.73.97.189]) by keys.merrymeet.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by keys.merrymeet.com on Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> References: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jon Callas Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:54:01 -0800 To: David Shaw X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 16 Feb 2006, at 10:48 AM, David Shaw wrote: > > If the language in 1991 is suitable, perhaps we could just point to > 1991. Is it legal to refer in this way to a document that we're > obsoleting in 2440bis? I don't think so. 1991 was never standards track. I don't want to re- open the old dead horse of whether you can obsolete something that was never standards track. It's too much like Alice's comment on more tea. Furthermore, it would committing a sin that drives me up the wall, of requiring someone to go back N documents. If the language in 1991 is close, then why not edit it into something suitable? I think that's much better than leaving pointers all over the place for people who read it a decade from now to have to deal with. Jon Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H7vVEe037042; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1H7vVnj037041; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1H7vVoS037034 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D3833C44 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:57:30 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F5826C.302@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:59:40 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> <43F45B0E.7010009@algroup.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43F45B0E.7010009@algroup.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie wrote: >> Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? >> It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described >> above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood >> your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood >> what your own code is doing. > > The code is publicly available: http://openpgpsdk.nominet.org.uk/. This should have been http://openpgp.nominet.org.uk/, sorry. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GIml94083717; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GImlnM083716; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GImkGs083710 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:48:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.60.132.70]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k1GImik03847 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:44 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k1GImjX6014567 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:45 -0500 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k1GImdEV017967 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:39 -0500 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id k1GImcgm017966 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:38 -0500 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060216184838.GC17725@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 10:32:11AM -0800, "Hal Finney" wrote: > > Peter Gutmann writes: > >> Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for > >> the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer > >> can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the > >> english description. > >> > >> (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & > >> paste the code). > > We do have an extremely verbose, algorithmic description of the encrypted > message CFB mode, in section 12.8. It's basically English language > pseudocode. We could add another section for the somewhat-similar V3 > key decryption, I guess. Seems like a lot of work for functionality > that we would hope to be deprecating, but I know people do need it to > work with the large body of V3 keys. If the language in 1991 is suitable, perhaps we could just point to 1991. Is it legal to refer in this way to a document that we're obsoleting in 2440bis? David Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GIRsAE082501; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GIRsNC082500; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GIRrt7082494 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 6063B57FAE; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:32:11 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: <20060216183211.6063B57FAE@finney.org> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:32:11 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Gutmann writes: >> Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for >> the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer >> can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the >> english description. >> >> (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & >> paste the code). We do have an extremely verbose, algorithmic description of the encrypted message CFB mode, in section 12.8. It's basically English language pseudocode. We could add another section for the somewhat-similar V3 key decryption, I guess. Seems like a lot of work for functionality that we would hope to be deprecating, but I know people do need it to work with the large body of V3 keys. Hal Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GBJS6v045505; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:19:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GBJSeq045504; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:19:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz (chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GBJRm4045485 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:19:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382D9358DE for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:22 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17020-18 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:22 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2E6358D3 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:21 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AAF3774E for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:21 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F9hAX-0001P8-00 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:29 +1300 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:19:29 +1300 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: >Peter Gutmann wrote: >> Ian G writes: >>> Ben Laurie wrote: >>>> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >>>> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >>> (I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) >> >> Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for >> the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer >> can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the >> english description. >> >> (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & >> paste the code). > >Isn't there some dumb IETF rule against that? I doubt it, many RFCs containing nontrivial algorithms (specifically ones where the easiest way to explain them is with code) already include full implementations, e.g. the MDx RFCs and the Punycode RFC. Peter. (Completely off-topic, but while I'm mentioning Punycode does anyone know what the *real* story behind this was? It seems to be the Intercal of character- set representations... does the background explanation by any chance begin with "Some mathematicians got drunk and made a bet..."? :-). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GAvLtO043270; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1GAvLZS043269; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:57:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1GAvIc1043262 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:57:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1302833C44; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:57:17 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F45B0E.7010009@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:59:26 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to >> work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I >> described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have >> it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get >> a working implementation for v3! > > To clarify, you are claiming that to unlock a V3 secret key, you don't > use the IV as usual in CFB mode. Instead, you use an all-zero buffer > for the IV, and then prepend the IV from the secret key subpacket to > the data, decrypt that, and discard the first block of output? Yes. > So in other words, to get the first block of plaintext you do, in effect: > > buf1 = Enc (all-zeros); > buf2 = buf1 xor IV; > buf3 = Enc (buf2); > buf4 = buf3 xor ciphertext > > and buf4 will be the first block of plaintext? You say your code does > this, and it works???? > > My code does this: > > buf1 = Enc (IV); > buf2 = buf1 xor ciphertext > > and buf2 is the first block of plaintext. > > I just checked GPG and I confirmed that they work the same way I have > said. > > Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? > It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described > above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood > your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood > what your own code is doing. The code is publicly available: http://openpgpsdk.nominet.org.uk/. But what I'm going to do is instrument it so we can all see exactly what is going on. Watch this space :-) Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FK9UCb079331; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1FK9U90079330; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FK9RKo079316 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 0D48557FAE; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:13:41 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, hal@finney.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Message-Id: <20060215201341.0D48557FAE@finney.org> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:13:41 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to > work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I > described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have > it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get > a working implementation for v3! To clarify, you are claiming that to unlock a V3 secret key, you don't use the IV as usual in CFB mode. Instead, you use an all-zero buffer for the IV, and then prepend the IV from the secret key subpacket to the data, decrypt that, and discard the first block of output? So in other words, to get the first block of plaintext you do, in effect: buf1 = Enc (all-zeros); buf2 = buf1 xor IV; buf3 = Enc (buf2); buf4 = buf3 xor ciphertext and buf4 will be the first block of plaintext? You say your code does this, and it works???? My code does this: buf1 = Enc (IV); buf2 = buf1 xor ciphertext and buf2 is the first block of plaintext. I just checked GPG and I confirmed that they work the same way I have said. Could you possibly show a few lines of your code, that does this step? It's simply impossible for your code to be working as I have described above, and to interoperate with existing V3 keys. Either I misunderstood your claim about the need for an all-zero IV, or you have misunderstood what your own code is doing. Hal Finney Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAnMp4035932; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1FAnMai035931; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:49:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAnMSO035925 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A6033C1C; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:49:21 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F307B1.50502@algroup.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:51:29 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060207201945.B07EF57FAF@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207201945.B07EF57FAF@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> Hal Finney wrote: >>> The IV is used in the standard way. You may be >>> thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you >>> say here. V3 private keys are standard. >> Experiment and code reading/running says it is correct. > > I rechecked my source code and I can confirm my statement. The IV is > used in the standard way for V3 secret key CFB encryption. The line is > > PGPInitCFB(*cfbp, key, buf + alglen); > > This initializes the CFB context in the first argument, using the key > in the 2nd argument and the IV in the 3rd argument. In this case the > IV is buf+alglen where buf is a pointer into the secret key data and > alglen is the offset past the S2K stuff. If we were using an all-zeros > IV as Ben suggests then we would have had to set up a buffer to act as > the IV, fill it with zeros, and pass that to the PGPInitCFB function. > We don't do that. > > (This is an important point because if it doesn't work as I have > described, then the spec is completely wrong and it would be extremely > important to change it ASAP. So I hope Ben or others can confirm that > the spec is right on this matter.) No, I can't confirm that. I have code that works as we all expect CFB to work (modulo "resync") on v4 secret keys. I had to make the change I described to decrypt v3 keys. It seems to me rather unlikely that I have it wrong given that I had to reverse engineer and write new code to get a working implementation for v3! Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAl2Pq035860; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1FAl2Yn035859; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1FAkwYs035853 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A84E33C3F; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:46:57 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F30720.6070900@algroup.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:49:04 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org, nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060207203013.2113357FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207203013.2113357FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hal Finney wrote: >>> Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys >>> encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support >>> multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is >>> not necessary at present. >> It isn't? > > No, I don't know of any application for that. How about secret key storage? :-) Nothing in the current standards would prevent it. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1F5H6UH011182; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1F5H6bB011181; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1F5H5qt011175 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F54B33C3F; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:17:04 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43F2B9CF.8000502@algroup.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:19:11 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann CC: iang@systemics.com, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Gutmann wrote: > Ian G writes: >> Ben Laurie wrote: >>> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >>> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >> (I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) > > Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for > the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer > can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the > english description. > > (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & > paste the code). Isn't there some dumb IETF rule against that? -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k18AHMpa008880; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:17:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k18AHMhB008879; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:17:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgate.enhyper.net ([80.168.109.121]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k18AHKbf008867 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:17:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgate.enhyper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091B65FA39; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:17:18 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E9C4DE.2020107@systemics.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:15:58 +0100 From: Ian G Organization: http://financialcryptography.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann Cc: ben@algroup.co.uk, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Gutmann wrote: > Ian G writes: > >>Ben Laurie wrote: >> >>>Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >>>has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >> >>(I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) > > > Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for > the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer > can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the > english description. > > (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & > paste the code). That I agree with. It's how it's done, anyway, as evidenced from the several references to "and I went back into the old code..." iang Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1802FM6027775; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1802F1o027774; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from merrymeet.com (merrymeet.com [63.73.97.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1802EBA027768 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@callas.org) Received: from keys.merrymeet.com (63.73.97.166) by merrymeet.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.7); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:11 -0800 Received: from [63.251.255.205] ([63.251.255.205]) by keys.merrymeet.com (PGP Universal service); Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:02:10 -0800 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by keys.merrymeet.com on Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:02:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: OpenPGP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jon Callas Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:02:00 -0800 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 2 Feb 2006, at 8:07 AM, Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > > I know that this has been discussed earlier, but I think it is > important to > weed out and summarize the requirements for the upcoming V5 key > packet format. > > [...] > Comments? > Yes, that while I agree with most if not all of what you suggest, that this is post-2440bis. Hold those thoughts until we get this document done. Jon Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17Mp6bV017787; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17Mp644017786; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:51:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz (harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.13]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17Mp5G2017776 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4400C34AF2; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05773-05; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1563E34A86; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:56 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF36E37742; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:50:56 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F6bfn-0000JK-00; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, iang@systemics.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org In-Reply-To: <43E88331.7010102@systemics.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:50:59 +1300 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ian G writes: >Ben Laurie wrote: >> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). >(I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) Why not just include the pseudocode (or more usefully straight C code) for the operation? That's the ultimate definitive description, any programmer can understand it, and you don't run into the problems you do with the english description. (Even if an implementer doesn't understand it, they can always just cut & paste the code). Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KQU7X096909; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17KQUXw096908; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KQT2k096899 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 2113357FAE; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:30:13 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, hal@finney.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org, nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com Message-Id: <20060207203013.2113357FAE@finney.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:30:13 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > Hal Finney wrote: > > Daniel Nagy writes: > >> I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where > >> there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets > >> at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected > >> symmetrically encrypted packets instead. > > > > I haven't participated in the recent discussion, partly because I think > > it is a little premature until we get the current spec put to bed. > > > > I am not sure I like this idea. We'll need to retain the old mechanism > > for many years at least, requiring us to support yet another set of > > incompatible mechanisms. And I don't know if the new proposal really > > simplifies things much. > > Surely you should already support this method? If you mean, can you send a secret key around in an encrypted file, and then decrypt and import it in a single operation... yes, there's a good chance that works. However some of the more advanced ideas, like having multiple secret keys in a single file, each encrypted in a different packet, I have no idea what would happen, it is not something we have tested to my knowledge. > > Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys > > encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support > > multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is > > not necessary at present. > > It isn't? No, I don't know of any application for that. > > It might require us to bite the bullet and > > clarify exactly what sequences of packets are legal, with possible > > backwards-compatibility problems. > > Hmm. My implementation will eat _any_ sequence of packets. So what do you do if you decrypt a file and find a sequence of encrypted packets? Or perhaps some packets signed, some encrypted, some both, all concatenated? Do you concatenate the results into a single output file (erasing the boundaries between the plaintexts, as well as information about what was signed and what wasn't); do you concatenate them along with some header information to identify where each piece starts and ends (which won't be reliable due to spoofing); do you output each piece to separate output files? Or ask the user what he wants to do? This kind of operation introduces considerable complexity in terms of providing a reasonable interface. We generally assume we are dealing with a single message consisting of one or more PKESK/SKESK packets with an encrypted packet, or a similar signed message. Once you go beyond this and try to deal with arbitrary sequences of packets it becomes highly problematic to make sure the user is getting the full benefit from the cryptography. If you have a custom program which is using this for internal, program-to-program communication, then go ahead and knock yourself out, use the data structures as you wish. But for person to person communication I think it is difficult and often unwise to try to deal with arbitrary sequences. Hal Finney Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KG4fK095799; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:16:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17KG4Z6095798; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17KG26P095792 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id B07EF57FAF; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, hal@finney.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Message-Id: <20060207201945.B07EF57FAF@finney.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > Hal Finney wrote: > > The IV is used in the standard way. You may be > > thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you > > say here. V3 private keys are standard. > > Experiment and code reading/running says it is correct. I rechecked my source code and I can confirm my statement. The IV is used in the standard way for V3 secret key CFB encryption. The line is PGPInitCFB(*cfbp, key, buf + alglen); This initializes the CFB context in the first argument, using the key in the 2nd argument and the IV in the 3rd argument. In this case the IV is buf+alglen where buf is a pointer into the secret key data and alglen is the offset past the S2K stuff. If we were using an all-zeros IV as Ben suggests then we would have had to set up a buffer to act as the IV, fill it with zeros, and pass that to the PGPInitCFB function. We don't do that. (This is an important point because if it doesn't work as I have described, then the spec is completely wrong and it would be extremely important to change it ASAP. So I hope Ben or others can confirm that the spec is right on this matter.) > > The last sentence is the one which is problematic. What if we changed > > it to: > > > > Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, > > the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV > > for that MPI taken as the last 8 octets of the ciphertext of the > > previous MPI value. > > > > Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 bytes, so > > I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. (As noted, I was mistaken about this 8-octet restriction.) > "re-synchronised to its initial state" is perhaps not entirely clear - > wouldn't it better to just say the IV is set to the last 8 octets of the > previous ciphertext and not mention initial state? The problem is that "IV" is not necessarily well defined in the middle of a CFB. You are using it synonymously with the chaining vector (or whatever other term you want to use). The "I" of "IV" means Initial, so the IV is the value used "initially" to begin the CFB operation. I am afraid that people would not know what to do if all we said was to change the IV to such-and-such, in the middle of a CFB stream. That's why I said to go back to the "initial state" of the CFB and then what the IV would be. In the initial state, the concept of the IV is well defined. I think that will be clearer to an implementor. Maybe "re-synchronized" is unclear; how about if we said "... the CFB state is reset to its initial state, with the IV for that MPI taken as..." Hal Finney Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BYCMk025490; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17BYCMm025489; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:34:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BYBLQ025483 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4A133C3F; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:34:10 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E8853A.2060400@algroup.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:32:10 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060207020728.EF80857FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207020728.EF80857FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hal Finney wrote: > Daniel Nagy writes: >> I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where >> there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets >> at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected >> symmetrically encrypted packets instead. > > I haven't participated in the recent discussion, partly because I think > it is a little premature until we get the current spec put to bed. > > I am not sure I like this idea. We'll need to retain the old mechanism > for many years at least, requiring us to support yet another set of > incompatible mechanisms. And I don't know if the new proposal really > simplifies things much. Surely you should already support this method? > Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys > encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support > multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is > not necessary at present. It isn't? > It might require us to bite the bullet and > clarify exactly what sequences of packets are legal, with possible > backwards-compatibility problems. Hmm. My implementation will eat _any_ sequence of packets. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BOqKU024570; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k17BOqcm024569; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgate.enhyper.net ([80.168.109.121]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k17BOp16024563 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgate.enhyper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB675F99D; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:24:50 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E88331.7010102@systemics.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:23:29 +0100 From: Ian G Organization: http://financialcryptography.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Laurie Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E78E94.5070902@algroup.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43E78E94.5070902@algroup.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie wrote: > OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was > going on here. > > In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. I would agree. The fantastic PGP chaining mode is my number one favourite feature to get the axe just as soon as possible. Your story has been repeated many times... I recall massive arguments about it when we implemented it in Java originally; for less than 10 lines of code it generated days of anger as various people argued this point or that point. > Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one > has ever implemented v3 keys from it). (I'm not qualified to rewrite the draft on that issue.) iang Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k179cB9f008170; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k179cBmg008169; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k179c73E008160 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C287F33C1C; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:38:06 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E86A06.8070402@algroup.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 09:36:06 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Finney CC: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <20060206223801.7087157FAE@finney.org> In-Reply-To: <20060206223801.7087157FAE@finney.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hal Finney wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: >> OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was >> going on here. >> >> In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. >> >> Firstly, v3 CFB does not use the IV in a standard way. Instead, what it >> does instead is set the IV to all zeroes and then decrypt the IV and >> throw away the result. > > This is not correct. The IV is used in the standard way. You may be > thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you > say here. V3 private keys are standard. Experiment and code reading/running says it is correct. >> Secondly, as I think was correctly explained by someone here (but I >> didn't get it, sorry), when "resynchronisation" occurs it means "set the >> IV to the last 8 bytes of ciphertext". > > Right. > >> Note that for any standard-sized key resynchronisation does _not_ occur, >> so people who think they've implemented it from AC are in for a surprise >> one day. > > This will usually be the case; p and q will be forced to be a multiple > of 8 bytes (64 bits) for keys of usual sizes. But d, which is e inverse > mod lambda(n) would be shorter sometimes. lambda(n) is lcm(p-1,q-1) so > lambda will be at least 1 bit shorter (since p-1 and q-1 are both even) > and perhaps 2 bits shorter with probability about 1/2 (in case p-1 and > q-1 have other small common factors). Independently, d may be shorter > than lambda. Put it all together and maybe one key in 70 or so would > have a d value which is 1 byte shorter, requiring resynchronization. OK, well, I haven't see one yet. As I mentioned before, test vectors/packets in the I-D would be _really_ nice. >> Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one >> has ever implemented v3 keys from it). > > The current text is not inaccurate, but does rely on knowing what > "resynchronized" means. Since this is a non-standard term we should > explain it better. Here is the current text: > > Encryption/decryption of the secret data is done in CFB mode using > the key created from the passphrase and the Initial Vector from the > packet. A different mode is used with V3 keys (which are only RSA) > than with other key formats. With V3 keys, the MPI bit count prefix > (i.e., the first two octets) is not encrypted. Only the MPI > non-prefix data is encrypted. Furthermore, the CFB state is > resynchronized at the beginning of each new MPI value, so that the > CFB block boundary is aligned with the start of the MPI data. > > The last sentence is the one which is problematic. What if we changed > it to: > > Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, > the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV > for that MPI taken as the last 8 octets of the ciphertext of the > previous MPI value. > > Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 bytes, so > I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. "re-synchronised to its initial state" is perhaps not entirely clear - wouldn't it better to just say the IV is set to the last 8 octets of the previous ciphertext and not mention initial state? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1723pGQ046498; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1723prG046497; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:03:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1723mbX046491 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id EF80857FAE; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:07:28 -0800 (PST) To: nagydani@epointsystem.org, vedaal@hush.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Message-Id: <20060207020728.EF80857FAE@finney.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:07:28 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Daniel Nagy writes: > I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where > there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets > at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected > symmetrically encrypted packets instead. I haven't participated in the recent discussion, partly because I think it is a little premature until we get the current spec put to bed. I am not sure I like this idea. We'll need to retain the old mechanism for many years at least, requiring us to support yet another set of incompatible mechanisms. And I don't know if the new proposal really simplifies things much. Complications have been pointed out regarding sending multiple keys encrypted with different passphrases, requiring us to explicitly support multiply-concatenated symmetric-encryption & SKESK packets, which is not necessary at present. It might require us to bite the bullet and clarify exactly what sequences of packets are legal, with possible backwards-compatibility problems. It would also seem to require that we store the keys in this new format, otherwise we have to ask the user for every passphrase when we import a bunch of keys like this, in order to decrypt the symmetric packets and convert them to the legacy format. So it has negative implications for existing implementations. These may not be total show-stoppers but I do want to go on record as not being ready to endorse this proposal yet. Hal Finney Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k171u4aW044825; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:56:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k171u4pu044804; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k171u3jj044793 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:56:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 84A0557FAE; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:59:43 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org, vedaal@hush.com Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: <20060207015943.84A0557FAE@finney.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Vedaal writes: > On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:38:01 -0500 Hal Finney > wrote: > > >Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 > >bytes, so > >I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. > > are v4 keys different in this respect ? > > (i.e., is there any cipher currently within the open pgp standard > that v4 keys support that v3 keys could not? Actually I think I was wrong about what I wrote there. At the time that V3 keys were created, only 8-byte ciphers were used by PGP, but now I think it would be legal to create a V3 key and use a 16-byte cipher like AES to encrypt the private part. (Or to re-encrypt the private part of an existing V3 key using AES instead of IDEA or 3DES.) So I would have to modify my proposed change to the language of the spec to say something like: Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV for that MPI taken as the final octets of the ciphertext of the previous MPI value, with the number of such octets being equal to the block size of the cipher. > classically, v3 keys were started when all that was available was > IDEA, > but Disastry extended 2.6x for v3 keys to accept 'any' open-pgp > cipher, > even for symmetric protection of the secret key > > (i have occasionally found it useful to prepare v3 non-IDEA test > keys, > for gnupg testers who prefer not to use patented algorithms, even > for testing, if there is a convenient way around it) > > [am not trying to awaken a v3 / v4 controversy ;-) > am just trying to 'understand' what i might have 'missed' ] Thanks for pointing out my mistake! Hal Finney Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k170RXvd033282; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k170RX31033281; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k170RW5N033275 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 386D22B403D; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:27:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:27:31 +0100 To: vedaal@hush.com Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060207002731.GA18523@epointsystem.org> References: <200602070000.k1700i0S081542@mailserver3.hushmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200602070000.k1700i0S081542@mailserver3.hushmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 07:00:41PM -0500, vedaal@hush.com wrote: > > On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:38:01 -0500 Hal Finney > wrote: > > >Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 > >bytes, so > >I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. > > are v4 keys different in this respect ? > > (i.e., is there any cipher currently within the open pgp standard > that v4 keys support that v3 keys could not? The difference is that in the case of v4 keys, the secret part is encrypted like a regular byte stream, with no regard to the contents. In the case of V3, there were resynchronization steps introduced between the MPIs. I sincerely hope that this whole mess will be cleaned up with V5, where there seems to be a consensus not to implement encrypted private key packets at all, but put unencrypted private key packets into integrity protected symmetrically encrypted packets instead. Personally, I would suggest removing encrypted packet formats from the standard altogether; there is no reason to stay interoperable with those. If one wants to export old keys, they should remove the encryption first. New implementations should enclose unencrypted private keys (of eiter version) in symmetrically encrypted packets with MDC. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1700kNC029731; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1700kMm029730; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (smtp3.hushmail.com [65.39.178.135]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k1700jQe029723 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vedaal@hush.com) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (localhost.hushmail.com [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C135A32EE for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserver3.hushmail.com (mailserver3.hushmail.com [65.39.178.20]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by mailserver3.hushmail.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k1700i0S081542 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:00:44 -0500 (GMT) (envelope-from vedaal@hush.com) Message-Id: <200602070000.k1700i0S081542@mailserver3.hushmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:00:41 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: Re: V3 secret keys From: Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:38:01 -0500 Hal Finney wrote: >Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 >bytes, so >I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. are v4 keys different in this respect ? (i.e., is there any cipher currently within the open pgp standard that v4 keys support that v3 keys could not? classically, v3 keys were started when all that was available was IDEA, but Disastry extended 2.6x for v3 keys to accept 'any' open-pgp cipher, even for symmetric protection of the secret key (i have occasionally found it useful to prepare v3 non-IDEA test keys, for gnupg testers who prefer not to use patented algorithms, even for testing, if there is a convenient way around it) [am not trying to awaken a v3 / v4 controversy ;-) am just trying to 'understand' what i might have 'missed' ] tia, vedaal Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail https://www.hushssl.com?l=485 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16MYOOu017816; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k16MYO8R017815; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from finney.org (226-132.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16MYLEm017809 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hal@finney.org) Received: by finney.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 7087157FAE; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:38:01 -0800 (PST) To: ben@algroup.co.uk, ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-Id: <20060206223801.7087157FAE@finney.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:38:01 -0800 (PST) From: hal@finney.org ("Hal Finney") Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie writes: > OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was > going on here. > > In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. > > Firstly, v3 CFB does not use the IV in a standard way. Instead, what it > does instead is set the IV to all zeroes and then decrypt the IV and > throw away the result. This is not correct. The IV is used in the standard way. You may be thinking of symmetrically encrypted data packets, which work as you say here. V3 private keys are standard. > Secondly, as I think was correctly explained by someone here (but I > didn't get it, sorry), when "resynchronisation" occurs it means "set the > IV to the last 8 bytes of ciphertext". Right. > Note that for any standard-sized key resynchronisation does _not_ occur, > so people who think they've implemented it from AC are in for a surprise > one day. This will usually be the case; p and q will be forced to be a multiple of 8 bytes (64 bits) for keys of usual sizes. But d, which is e inverse mod lambda(n) would be shorter sometimes. lambda(n) is lcm(p-1,q-1) so lambda will be at least 1 bit shorter (since p-1 and q-1 are both even) and perhaps 2 bits shorter with probability about 1/2 (in case p-1 and q-1 have other small common factors). Independently, d may be shorter than lambda. Put it all together and maybe one key in 70 or so would have a d value which is 1 byte shorter, requiring resynchronization. > Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one > has ever implemented v3 keys from it). The current text is not inaccurate, but does rely on knowing what "resynchronized" means. Since this is a non-standard term we should explain it better. Here is the current text: Encryption/decryption of the secret data is done in CFB mode using the key created from the passphrase and the Initial Vector from the packet. A different mode is used with V3 keys (which are only RSA) than with other key formats. With V3 keys, the MPI bit count prefix (i.e., the first two octets) is not encrypted. Only the MPI non-prefix data is encrypted. Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start of the MPI data. The last sentence is the one which is problematic. What if we changed it to: Furthermore, at the beginning of each MPI value after the first, the CFB state is re-synchronized to its initial state, with the IV for that MPI taken as the last 8 octets of the ciphertext of the previous MPI value. Note that V3 keys only support ciphers with a block size of 8 bytes, so I think it is OK to explicitly say "8 octets" here. Hal Finney Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16I1poU063950; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k16I1pe8063949; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k16I1oK6063943 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573A233C45 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:01:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E78E94.5070902@algroup.co.uk> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:59:48 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: OpenPGP Subject: V3 secret keys X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: OK, I had to resort to reading the PGP 2 source to find out what was going on here. In essence its fairly simple, but is _definitely_ no explained by the I-D. Firstly, v3 CFB does not use the IV in a standard way. Instead, what it does instead is set the IV to all zeroes and then decrypt the IV and throw away the result. Secondly, as I think was correctly explained by someone here (but I didn't get it, sorry), when "resynchronisation" occurs it means "set the IV to the last 8 bytes of ciphertext". Note that for any standard-sized key resynchronisation does _not_ occur, so people who think they've implemented it from AC are in for a surprise one day. Obviously the I-D should be updated to reflect this (and clearly no-one has ever implemented v3 keys from it). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k149x1rY016207; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k149x1Ra016206; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k149wx2r016199 for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 21C3E2B47EF; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:58:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:58:58 +0100 To: Ben Laurie Cc: Wim Lewis , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060204095858.GA3446@epointsystem.org> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> <43E376D5.1070102@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E376D5.1070102@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 03:29:25PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > > Right, your description is equivalent, but different from the traditional > > view of CFB. I implemented CFB resynchronization based on the description in > > Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", without looking into any > > implementations. The result was interoperable at first attempt. > > I (reluctantly) dug out my copy of "Applied Cryptography" and I see no > mention of "resynchronisation". Figure 9.9 (in Section 9.6) shows the encryption and decryption of a partial block. Resynchronization is making the current block partial (ending it at the current position) and starting a new one. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13IpLlk078182; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13IpLo6078181; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13IpKVA078173 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 373592B47D5; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:51:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:51:19 +0100 To: Konrad Rosenbaum Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203185119.GB2064@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> <200602031909.10133@zaphod.konrad.silmor.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200602031909.10133@zaphod.konrad.silmor.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:09:06PM +0100, Konrad Rosenbaum wrote: > Consequently one would also need to scrap the logic that a signature is > invalid if it predates the key (that's somewhere in RFC2440). I disagree. I'm merely advocating moving the key creation time into the self signature, which is the only obstacle to forgery anyway: If you give me a signed document that predates the key along with that key, I can change the date in the key, re-calculate the hash, change the reference to the key in the signature and voila, I have a valid signature, without access to any private info. The only thing stopping me is the self-signature on the key, which also hashes the key creation date. So, that self-signature is the real cryptographic protection, not the reference in the document signature. Thus, one does not reduce security a bit by moving the key creation date into the self-signature. That is where it belongs. > Why not: hash the _complete_ public key packet _as_is_ without any > modifications? > > The computational load of hashing a few bytes more and of slicing them first > should be about identical. > > It is very easy to implement (read as: less potential security holes through > programming mistakes and higher interoperability). > > It is much more resistant against upcoming attacks than a selective model. I agree. This is why I am calling for throwing the key creation date out of the key packet. The key packet should only contain an algorithm identifier, the key material and possibly deterministic functions thereof. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13ICN73073364; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13ICNB4073363; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from p15139323.pureserver.info (silmor.de [217.160.219.75]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13ICMWd073348 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from konrad@silmor.de) Received: from p54b3e320.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.179.227.32] helo=zaphod.local) by p15139323.pureserver.info with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1F55Pt-0005zZ-00 for ; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:12:17 +0100 From: Konrad Rosenbaum To: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:09:06 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9 References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> In-Reply-To: <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200602031909.10133@zaphod.konrad.silmor.de> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 03 February 2006 17:43, Ian G wrote: > Ben Laurie wrote: > > This could be confusing - documents that were signed with a key > > specified like this could retroactively find themselves predating the > > key. > > Why is this important? The date on the key is > just "there" and isn't of such strength that it > should be stressed overly much. Consequently one would also need to scrap the logic that a signature is=20 invalid if it predates the key (that's somewhere in RFC2440). Why not: hash the _complete_ public key packet _as_is_ without any=20 modifications?=20 The computational load of hashing a few bytes more and of slicing them firs= t=20 should be about identical. It is very easy to implement (read as: less potential security holes throug= h=20 programming mistakes and higher interoperability). It is much more resistant against upcoming attacks than a selective model. Konrad --nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBD45xGClt766LaIH0RAk3jAJ9Tc1GL7xJdLONPHZ0UgHZDd7b28gCfcjn+ USBC9xPmSGxFJ2w4ELx7G8E= =isEL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart29217556.MGzNFWOI5t-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13GinWQ061417; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13GinEG061416; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:44:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgate.enhyper.net ([80.168.109.121]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13GimvC061397 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgate.enhyper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A465B8AE for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:44:47 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3882C.8060607@systemics.com> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:43:24 +0100 From: Ian G Organization: http://financialcryptography.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Ben Laurie wrote: > Daniel A. Nagy wrote: >>1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and >>maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This >>would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key >>(key material + algorithm). > > > This could be confusing - documents that were signed with a key > specified like this could retroactively find themselves predating the key. Why is this important? The date on the key is just "there" and isn't of such strength that it should be stressed overly much. The dates of importance are the date of signing (which should be in the signature) and the date of attesting some meaning to the key for the purpose of signing documents. The date of the key creation would appear to be just some artifact of the tech. (And for some things like password-generated keys, would appear to be a non-date.) > >>2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted >>container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no reason >>to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key packet into >>that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the number of things >>to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and >>maintain. > > > Yes, please! Yay! Less is always better. iang Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13Fw6tQ053970; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13Fw6aO053969; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:58:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpq1.groni1.gr.home.nl (smtpq1.groni1.gr.home.nl [213.51.130.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13Fw5gx053963 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edwin@woudt.nl) Received: from [213.51.130.190] (port=33956 helo=smtp1.groni1.gr.home.nl) by smtpq1.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F53K0-0004BN-O2; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:58:04 +0100 Received: from cc718542-b.ensch1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.228.134]:7041 helo=[10.42.42.23]) by smtp1.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F53Jf-0007oD-Oo; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:57:43 +0100 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:58:34 +0100 From: Edwin Woudt To: "Daniel A. Nagy" cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060203133203.GA13744@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <20060203133203.GA13744@epointsystem.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: >> IMHO, things that have nothing to do with the user ID should not be in a >> self-signature, but in a direct key signature (type 0x1F) instead. > > But I agree > that signatures on keys are less popular with implementations than they > should be. OTOH, this is not directly related to the key packet format. The introduction of V5 would be a good moment to remedy this situation. -- Edwin Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FTLib050297; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13FTLwf050290; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FTKkS050274 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CC533C45; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E376D5.1070102@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:29:25 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" CC: Wim Lewis , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> In-Reply-To: <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > Right, your description is equivalent, but different from the traditional > view of CFB. I implemented CFB resynchronization based on the description in > Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", without looking into any > implementations. The result was interoperable at first attempt. I (reluctantly) dug out my copy of "Applied Cryptography" and I see no mention of "resynchronisation". -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FMG9x049005; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13FMGCF049003; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FME3Q048964 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF0233C3F; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:22:13 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3752D.40505@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:22:21 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wim Lewis CC: OpenPGP , Adam Back , "Daniel A. Nagy" Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Wim Lewis wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Adam Back wrote: >> So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get >> compat with some parts of pgp) > > Likewise :-) I had to go examine the pgp2.6.2 source to be sure I was > doing it right, IIRC. > >> So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to >> resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the >> previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. > > As I understand it (it's been a while...), normal CFB has no concept of > partial block encryption except at the end of the stream. Even there, > one could argue, you're just padding the stream to a block boundary, > then truncating the output back to the original length, and taking > advantage of the property that the last block's worth of bits are > independent > (no mixing / avalanche). > > So one way to describe PGP's operation is to say that each field is > encrypted independently using CFB, and the results are concatenated; > the fields after the first use an IV equal to the last eight bytes of > the output so far. (If the total ciphertext at that point is still too > short, then bytes from the original IV are used as if they > preceded the cipher stream.) Yes, this is what OpenSSL implements, and it definitely works with OpenPGP (not surprisingly, because this is really equivalent to decrypting the whole thing using CFB and then slicing it up afterwards). > For fields which are a multiple of the block length, this is the same > as normal CFB; for short fields, some of the ciphertext gets used as > key material for more than one invocation of the block cipher: once > for the last block of a field, and again (mixed with new ciphertext) > for the first block of the next field. No, this I don't agree with. > What I've written above is very much not the way that pgp2.6.2 thinks of > the operation, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent. I think not. > IIRC, there are only two places in PGP where the odd feedback mode > comes into play: the check bytes at the beginning of an encrypted > file, and encrypted MPIs in the secret key packet. I do not know what you mean by the "odd feedback mode". >> I agree what is written is pretty unclear. > > There's a comment in pgp2.6.2's idea.c which explains it reasonably well, > I think. > >> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >>> If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB >>> when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. > > From the comment in 2.6.2: > > * Phil invented a unique way of doing CFB that's sensitive to semantic > * boundaries within the data being encrypted. > [... detailed explanation snipped ... ] > * This is equivalent to using a > * shorter feedback length (if you're familiar with the general CFB > * technique) briefly, and doesn't weaken the cipher any (using shorter > * CFB lengths makes it stronger, actually), it just makes it a bit > unusual. > > The unusual aspect is the varying feedback length, where the feedback > length depends on the presence of a semantic boundary in the plaintext. > Normally CFB operates on an undifferentiated stream-of-bytes, and field > boundaries are not preserved nor significant. I don't believe this is an accurate description of what's going on. At least, not with v4 secret keys, which allegedly are nearly the same (apart from "resynchronisation" - which I still am in the dark about). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FEkbs046903; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13FEkVq046902; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13FEjfu046895 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF21933C1C; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:14:43 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3736C.6030300@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:14:52 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Back CC: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Adam Back wrote: > The pgp263 docs say (not much better): > > | One unusual point about the way encryption is done. Using the IDEA > | cipher in CFB mode, the first 10 bytes are decrypted normally, but > | bytes 10 to 17, the first 8 bytes of the data proper, are encrypted > | using bytes 2 to 9 (the last 8 bytes of the key check prefix) as the > | IV. This is essentially using CFB-16 for one part of the > | encryption, while CFB-64 is used elsewhere. > > So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get > compat with some parts of pgp) what it means is you encrypt normally > with CFB-64 (encrypt previous 8 bytes, xor with plaintext). When you > get to one of these sync points, it may be part way thru a block, so > you encrypt the short block as normal. Then you take the previous 8 > bytes of ciphertext and use it as the IV and continue. > > So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to > resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the > previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. OK, but this is how CFB works normally (at least, as implemented in OpenSSL), so what you appear to be saying is that in v3 mode you carry on as if the two plaintext bytes (the MPI length field) weren't there. Right? > > I agree what is written is pretty unclear. > > Adam > > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >>>> Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the >>>> current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but >>>> set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to >>>> the initial value and start again? Or what? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Ben. >>> It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and >>> shifting the IV. >> If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB >> when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. >> >> -- >> http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ >> >> "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he >> doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff > > -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13DW5Xw034382; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13DW5CF034381; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13DW46v034374 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D5D4D2B47A3; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:32:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:32:03 +0100 To: Edwin Woudt Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203133203.GA13744@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 02:05:34PM +0100, Edwin Woudt wrote: > --On 2-2-2006 17:07 +0100 "Daniel A. Nagy" > wrote: > > > >1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and > >maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This > >would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key > >(key material + algorithm). > > IMHO, things that have nothing to do with the user ID should not be in a > self-signature, but in a direct key signature (type 0x1F) instead. That's a self-signature, too (just not a key-uid binding one). But I agree that signatures on keys are less popular with implementations than they should be. OTOH, this is not directly related to the key packet format. > >4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. > > Why is this needed? Isn't this possible already using the current (V4) > packet formats? It is possible, but in many different ways. Implementations are generally not interoperable. This stuff must be standardized, IMHO. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13D57xi029925; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13D57UE029924; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl (smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl [213.51.130.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13D56Up029918 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edwin@woudt.nl) Received: from [213.51.130.188] (port=49940 helo=smtp3.groni1.gr.home.nl) by smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F50cb-000784-Fg; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:05:05 +0100 Received: from cc718542-b.ensch1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.228.134]:6969 helo=[10.42.42.23]) by smtp3.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1F50ca-0007Ui-9l; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:05:04 +0100 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:05:34 +0100 From: Edwin Woudt To: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --On 2-2-2006 17:07 +0100 "Daniel A. Nagy" wrote: > > 1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and > maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This > would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key > (key material + algorithm). IMHO, things that have nothing to do with the user ID should not be in a self-signature, but in a direct key signature (type 0x1F) instead. > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted > container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no > reason to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key > packet into that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the > number of things to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier > to assess and maintain. Agreed. > 4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. Why is this needed? Isn't this possible already using the current (V4) packet formats? -- Edwin Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CpTco028121; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13CpTRJ028120; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CpT8n028114 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA4133C3F; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:51:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E351D8.20308@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:51:36 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Back CC: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Adam Back wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 11:53:33AM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > >>> 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically >>> encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so >>> there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the >>> unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need >>> encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about >>> and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. >> Yes, please! > > What if you want different password on different keys? > > (Think eg long term signing key vs short term signing key -- no point > having separate signing keys unless have possibility to use different > password.) Eh? You can have 1 symmetric encrypted packet per key, they don't have to share one. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CYp39026187; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13CYpNk026186; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CYnar026179 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:34:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EC34F2B47A3; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:34:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:34:48 +0100 To: Adam Back Cc: Ben Laurie , OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203123448.GA8926@epointsystem.org> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:25:26AM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 11:53:33AM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically > > > encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so > > > there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the > > > unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need > > > encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about > > > and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. > > > > Yes, please! > > What if you want different password on different keys? > > (Think eg long term signing key vs short term signing key -- no point > having separate signing keys unless have possibility to use different > password.) Then you put the two key packets in two different containers with different passphrases. And again, keep in mind that this is primarily and export-import format. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CPV6J025205; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13CPVhp025204; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.off.net (off.net [66.96.28.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13CPUAf025189 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@mail.off.net) Received: by mail.off.net (Postfix, from userid 948) id 215AB770003; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by bitchcake.off.net (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 948); Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:25:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:25:26 -0500 From: Adam Back To: Ben Laurie Cc: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060203122526.GA21898@bitchcake.off.net> References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:ben@algroup.co.uk::BVk/eKy1OPO67+UI:2xIy X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:nagydani@epointsystem.org::BkKmgj8ZA2YTVMq7:5Y44 X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:ietf-openpgp@imc.org::J/WeZuXvRSkaORl1:8i8X X-Hashcash: 1:20:060203:adam@cypherspace.org::voAGQ1DIKae4IhLn:CMZ Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 11:53:33AM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically > > encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so > > there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the > > unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need > > encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about > > and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. > > Yes, please! What if you want different password on different keys? (Think eg long term signing key vs short term signing key -- no point having separate signing keys unless have possibility to use different password.) Adam Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13BrRYs019921; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k13BrRNk019920; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k13BrQ8R019914 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D467733C1C; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:53:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E3443D.90609@algroup.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:53:33 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" CC: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V5 key packet format requirements References: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> In-Reply-To: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > I know that this has been discussed earlier, but I think it is important to > weed out and summarize the requirements for the upcoming V5 key packet format. > > Public key packet format > > 1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and > maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This > would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key > (key material + algorithm). This could be confusing - documents that were signed with a key specified like this could retroactively find themselves predating the key. > Private key packet format > > 1. Change wording of standard to indicate that this is intended to be merely > an export-import format. Implementations can obtain private keys any way > they see fit. Also, from memory, private keys include stuff that can be calculated (or is it that they don't include stuff that's useful to have precalculated?). In any case, it would be good to know what's optional. > 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted > container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no reason > to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key packet into > that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the number of things > to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and > maintain. Yes, please! > 3. Support for multiprime RSA keys (as in PKCS#1 v2.1). Aren't they patented? > 4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. > > I think, the above are all legitimate needs that should be addressed in the > new packet format. I cannot think of more. Support for PFS. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Kh6Bf092369; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12Kh6rF092368; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:43:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Kh5Um092362 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3F92A2B45D2; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:43:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:43:04 +0100 To: Wim Lewis Cc: OpenPGP , Adam Back , Ben Laurie Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060202204304.GA8476@epointsystem.org> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 11:57:50AM -0800, Wim Lewis wrote: > As I understand it (it's been a while...), normal CFB has no concept of > partial block encryption except at the end of the stream. Yes it does. The whole point of CFB is that it can encrypt arbitrary block lengths up to the block size of the used block cipher. That is why it is used in interactive applications. > What I've written above is very much not the way that pgp2.6.2 thinks of > the operation, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent. Right, your description is equivalent, but different from the traditional view of CFB. I implemented CFB resynchronization based on the description in Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", without looking into any implementations. The result was interoperable at first attempt. > >From the comment in 2.6.2: > > * Phil invented a unique way of doing CFB that's sensitive to semantic > * boundaries within the data being encrypted. > [... detailed explanation snipped ... ] > * This is equivalent to using a > * shorter feedback length (if you're familiar with the general CFB > * technique) briefly, and doesn't weaken the cipher any (using shorter > * CFB lengths makes it stronger, actually), it just makes it a bit unusual. I somewhat disagree. Following semantics with block length may indeed be PZ's innovation, but variable block length is one of the reasons why CFB has been invented in the first place. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12JvqYH086676; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12JvquD086675; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from photomat.hhhh.org (photomat.hhhh.org [207.202.171.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Jvp5o086669 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wiml@hhhh.org) Received: by photomat.hhhh.org (Postfix, from userid 4395) id 7D6DB81C0; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by photomat.hhhh.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E9FAD37; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) From: Wim Lewis To: OpenPGP Cc: Adam Back , Ben Laurie , "Daniel A. Nagy" Subject: Re: V3 secret keys In-Reply-To: <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> Message-ID: References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Adam Back wrote: > So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get > compat with some parts of pgp) Likewise :-) I had to go examine the pgp2.6.2 source to be sure I was doing it right, IIRC. > So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to > resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the > previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. As I understand it (it's been a while...), normal CFB has no concept of partial block encryption except at the end of the stream. Even there, one could argue, you're just padding the stream to a block boundary, then truncating the output back to the original length, and taking advantage of the property that the last block's worth of bits are independent (no mixing / avalanche). So one way to describe PGP's operation is to say that each field is encrypted independently using CFB, and the results are concatenated; the fields after the first use an IV equal to the last eight bytes of the output so far. (If the total ciphertext at that point is still too short, then bytes from the original IV are used as if they preceded the cipher stream.) For fields which are a multiple of the block length, this is the same as normal CFB; for short fields, some of the ciphertext gets used as key material for more than one invocation of the block cipher: once for the last block of a field, and again (mixed with new ciphertext) for the first block of the next field. What I've written above is very much not the way that pgp2.6.2 thinks of the operation, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent. IIRC, there are only two places in PGP where the odd feedback mode comes into play: the check bytes at the beginning of an encrypted file, and encrypted MPIs in the secret key packet. > I agree what is written is pretty unclear. There's a comment in pgp2.6.2's idea.c which explains it reasonably well, I think. > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >> If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB >> when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. >From the comment in 2.6.2: * Phil invented a unique way of doing CFB that's sensitive to semantic * boundaries within the data being encrypted. [... detailed explanation snipped ... ] * This is equivalent to using a * shorter feedback length (if you're familiar with the general CFB * technique) briefly, and doesn't weaken the cipher any (using shorter * CFB lengths makes it stronger, actually), it just makes it a bit unusual. The unusual aspect is the varying feedback length, where the feedback length depends on the presence of a semantic boundary in the plaintext. Normally CFB operates on an undifferentiated stream-of-bytes, and field boundaries are not preserved nor significant. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Ik7mF077282; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12Ik7dw077281; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:46:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.off.net (off.net [66.96.28.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Ik6M4077273 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@mail.off.net) Received: by mail.off.net (Postfix, from userid 948) id 4AB877704F8; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by bitchcake.off.net (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 948); Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:46:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:46:01 -0500 From: Adam Back To: Ben Laurie Cc: "Daniel A. Nagy" , OpenPGP , Adam Back Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060202184601.GA20613@bitchcake.off.net> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:ben@algroup.co.uk::4YWjL6B2/ZerNAtI:DSD X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:nagydani@epointsystem.org::2RTbjceqUWJA9A+N:8Umc X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:ietf-openpgp@imc.org::XLMTEaipvJYUZQlb:36Zm X-Hashcash: 1:20:060202:adam@cypherspace.org::HV/p2vnEThFzfo5G:114R Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: The pgp263 docs say (not much better): | One unusual point about the way encryption is done. Using the IDEA | cipher in CFB mode, the first 10 bytes are decrypted normally, but | bytes 10 to 17, the first 8 bytes of the data proper, are encrypted | using bytes 2 to 9 (the last 8 bytes of the key check prefix) as the | IV. This is essentially using CFB-16 for one part of the | encryption, while CFB-64 is used elsewhere. So actually (I implemented this funky thing at some point to get compat with some parts of pgp) what it means is you encrypt normally with CFB-64 (encrypt previous 8 bytes, xor with plaintext). When you get to one of these sync points, it may be part way thru a block, so you encrypt the short block as normal. Then you take the previous 8 bytes of ciphertext and use it as the IV and continue. So it I think really is standard partial block encryption, but to resume after the block you take the last 8 bytes from the end of the previous ciphertext chunk and use as the IV for the next chunk. I agree what is written is pretty unclear. Adam On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:10:32PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > >> Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the > >> current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but > >> set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to > >> the initial value and start again? Or what? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Ben. > > > > It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and > > shifting the IV. > > If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB > when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. > > -- > http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ > > "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he > doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12HfYJ0069378; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12HfYIE069377; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12HfXtG069370 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CBA33C59; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E23D08.10806@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:10:32 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Nagy" CC: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> In-Reply-To: <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Daniel A. Nagy wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:48:38PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >> in 5.5.3 it says: >> >> "Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each >> new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start >> of the MPI data." >> >> I can't find anywhere a precise (or even an imprecise) definition of >> "resynchronized". What exactly does it mean? >> >> Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the >> current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but >> set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to >> the initial value and start again? Or what? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ben. > > It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and > shifting the IV. If that means anything at all, you appear to be describing standard CFB when applied to a partial block, which I assume the above is not. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12G7FLe057757; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12G7FwF057756; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12G7E23057748 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D8D872B45D2; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:07:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:07:13 +0100 To: OpenPGP Subject: V5 key packet format requirements Message-ID: <20060202160713.GB18144@epointsystem.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I know that this has been discussed earlier, but I think it is important to weed out and summarize the requirements for the upcoming V5 key packet format. Public key packet format 1. Exclude creation date from fingerprint and key ID hash computation (and maybe from the key packet, too -- it belongs to the self-signature). This would mean that the key fingerprint and ID depend only on the actual key (key material + algorithm). Private key packet format 1. Change wording of standard to indicate that this is intended to be merely an export-import format. Implementations can obtain private keys any way they see fit. 2. Scrap encrypted private keys. We already have a symmetrically encrypted container format with sufficient integrity protection, so there is no reason to maintain another one. Just put the unencrypted private key packet into that container, if you need encryption. This will reduce the number of things to worry about and make the security of OpenPGP easier to assess and maintain. 3. Support for multiprime RSA keys (as in PKCS#1 v2.1). 4. Support for exporting and importing subkeys. I think, the above are all legitimate needs that should be addressed in the new packet format. I cannot think of more. Comments? -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12E6IeF044875; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12E6Iid044871; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:06:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.epointsystem.org ([195.228.156.120]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12E6D8e044853 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nagydani@epointsystem.org) Received: by mail.epointsystem.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 81D8E2B45D2; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:06:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:06:12 +0100 To: Ben Laurie Cc: OpenPGP Subject: Re: V3 secret keys Message-ID: <20060202140612.GA13906@epointsystem.org> References: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: nagydani@epointsystem.org (Daniel A. Nagy) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:48:38PM +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > in 5.5.3 it says: > > "Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each > new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start > of the MPI data." > > I can't find anywhere a precise (or even an imprecise) definition of > "resynchronized". What exactly does it mean? > > Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the > current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but > set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to > the initial value and start again? Or what? > > Cheers, > > Ben. It means the usual CFB synchronization with outputting a partial block and shifting the IV. -- Daniel Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12DmiR2041834; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id k12DmiAw041833; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k12Dmg9x041796 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@algroup.co.uk) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A097233F8D for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:48:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43E20DB6.30209@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:48:38 +0000 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: OpenPGP Subject: V3 secret keys X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: in 5.5.3 it says: "Furthermore, the CFB state is resynchronized at the beginning of each new MPI value, so that the CFB block boundary is aligned with the start of the MPI data." I can't find anywhere a precise (or even an imprecise) definition of "resynchronized". What exactly does it mean? Does it mean that the IV is reset to whatever it was at the start of the current block? Does it mean that we use the partially-updated IV, but set the position back to the beginning? Does it mean we reset the IV to the initial value and start again? Or what? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff