From nobody Thu Oct 5 08:29:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386FA1321A2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 08:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq9cMMQLSD5j for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 08:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05283132198 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 08:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x230.google.com with SMTP id q4so7615689oic.7 for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2017 08:29:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=I4nhM9KTYTLoFZz4BUi417N4wl3WbV4LNgkZ/M1M1es=; b=Ze2QOMglfYduUd8GfJyBVFOmzsLdipQazhWQjsYJfhybe/qwJHqCvzByvoDtru9TRy 8QC0NjrtI2Ml224nU6p0WIDVqwg6uGT4u+izXgnB1hh/RNkDUAccSdHcOh3jtF5f62al mBdXpl3546qqj6srGu4N/qWyedYIous4rByEYoel4D2pR+yb7xSH38gT8SBgv7wDp/V+ Pb6Kq49jvkvlCIQlSI5/MfpctinC4RhY0CE+bo3aoRLlA847DYMXbFJupAIE1HY70rG1 b8M3iiGA3a+Q5+T1TVr3mVAl2Ue0y+JV2ijgHsfE9etMPeIrbF7BctAZeFZASj2HkuqG KPbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=I4nhM9KTYTLoFZz4BUi417N4wl3WbV4LNgkZ/M1M1es=; b=JCyxpRN7sX8xoXrsBR4/l3CQ+4cxXqxepwW1dZRXeU3HiqNCRCb/uUNWMgPClmsUbe S9WCk0LYmFD9k9Gj49756c5piMwPRyv/PwCQCCVdXKcpLl1+3TrNH6WZS/yVV5cQmFq5 mjWmKEj5Tps/i7p0dG5tv5gFWhLGC5fSf26TcozKKY15SvTLA/B3kJEAuAlkQjtjZBwr D31Snbudh6Q2SbBljKJjZQ3CpLoEbexKjsB0m6aXrjcPedyxQbacigfR4FzujtaSEtsz Mi1GWktcoLV1wkZFa9dgNU8oQFS08+QV1PQq7ZPAxswXkvymC92WAQtW0i26pSvUtSUg JZ+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVO3PQkONZcXp5kMprJe+GW8V2y8Z3VNuti+AwFBGsH+jG/A9CP duki8NvldPJDqcOtnZgIUK4ON1InRpIBv+2/c9+hNCe8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCW0GAW33T7UaUzIAdK3lRfPH9dqNPD8rxt9Wo8oxWHONDcda3nDbuD7AOAYjNIeyxFrzCYJHJ8Od/xIOwu0rE= X-Received: by 10.157.59.102 with SMTP id z93mr13589891otb.222.1507217349761; Thu, 05 Oct 2017 08:29:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.19.199 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 08:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: noloader@gmail.com From: Jeffrey Walton Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 11:29:07 -0400 Message-ID: To: openpgp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Recommended default for SHA3-based signatures X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 15:29:12 -0000 Hi Everyone, Regarding https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-jivsov-openpgp-sha3-01.txt and the SHA3 support, which SHA3 algorithm does OpenPGP recommend as the default for interoperability? I am trying to determine which size causes the least amount of discomfort with respect to SHA3-based interop. I suspect it is SHA3-256, but the project might promote a different size with long term goals in mind. Thanks in advance. Jeff From nobody Fri Oct 6 02:11:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E23313482B for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 02:11:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=metacode.biz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSTyKgKluKrk for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 02:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78A4113482A for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 02:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id l23so12785436lfk.10 for ; Fri, 06 Oct 2017 02:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=metacode.biz; s=2011; h=to:from:subject:openpgp:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=5CRaA2vA3Il6idhAl0yq0nu2dtXienfQ1l+EQt5c3ac=; b=U1rgQsKSKQMlv6PAp4B4y5QcMNwFwv97Y9LMQyNuA+KGavUwALSVUpUitbN/PELy9o pj0jdJf4lMKF+vYNwK/gfNYtqv+G4log1DFSK0xvbP7MIBKSQSWgAs1OA57GUu1ldjOM lVymspQrpQY4IB73YjPYMoYrAaoYTc+5qass8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:openpgp:organization:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=5CRaA2vA3Il6idhAl0yq0nu2dtXienfQ1l+EQt5c3ac=; b=dq9rktBiNXPKBHHA2ntkCl+TMJPXRhfHp5uA97j8VUKGdCYmPJJq0l9HRCJ+s6ifgJ w1SwY4gPbAb/cLGwlIGnGac91P2HxnvAbgTZDtyJVYoPl+RnKyoDc0wAtpponn7acZc0 R9niUva2X/P3X9iT024gdl7Z5Mf3fvrcoA65aX7LAFLlol2cPt9oG7RM4IqrT83UEvro Rtr65Bi9qp072z/ZxOnorn+dbjY7fenHFl4VYuiKOhVenAQ/InC5whL+jSC3oE87wOfR u294r3XLBCAFJEzbIkLbPZ8SXcZ5Cva+TVbk+PHmxrsdFvLSJkL7FBmA3hGP+lCl5Y5/ /T9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVVlriKRy8Rl4ABqqoydBSUkmCvDYWtKLIjCP+pJIfxY9LyRBJV 6GEH5myVf51T/WTbsS1edx3Dh94W9d8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QA519/IgPNXFem5UUlyilPeiA2WFn95dmAZQc26p27SeVVFcG34/VxOJFn+YUy1EneEokoC3A== X-Received: by 10.25.29.213 with SMTP id d204mr466216lfd.47.1507281099551; Fri, 06 Oct 2017 02:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.69] (89-64-36-212.dynamic.chello.pl. [89.64.36.212]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id e31sm222442lji.76.2017.10.06.02.11.38 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Oct 2017 02:11:38 -0700 (PDT) To: openpgp@ietf.org From: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Openpgp: id=653909A2F0E37C106F5FAF546C8857E0D8E8F074 Organization: Metacode Message-ID: <43412d30-51a2-1941-43d9-f0207f77afcd@metacode.biz> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 11:11:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Linked Identities / URI Attributes status X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 09:11:43 -0000 Hello everyone, I'd like to ask about Linked Identities for OpenPGP [0]. I'm planning to write tooling to manage Linked Identities UAT packets but as far as I can see Linked Identities rely on URI Attributes [1] and URI Attributes (because it's still draft) do not have IANA-assigned User Attribute Type [2]. The only implementation that I know of (OpenKeychain) use experimental value for these packets. Is there anything that blocks URI Attributes [1] from being approved and having an official (2-99) User Attribute type? Thank you for you time! Kind regards, Wiktor [0]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vb-openpgp-linked-ids-01 [1]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vb-openpgp-uri-attribute-01 [2]: https://www.iana.org/assignments/pgp-parameters/pgp-parameters.xhtml#pgp-parameters-3 -- */metacode/* From nobody Fri Oct 6 03:48:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29B0134905 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJdP8AY54v2g for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DE66134904 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1e0QBI-0001ub-PK for ; Fri, 06 Oct 2017 12:48:36 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.84 #3 (Debian)) id 1e0Q4J-0002XF-If; Fri, 06 Oct 2017 12:41:23 +0200 From: Werner Koch To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Cc: openpgp@ietf.org References: <43412d30-51a2-1941-43d9-f0207f77afcd@metacode.biz> Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , openpgp@ietf.org Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 12:41:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: <43412d30-51a2-1941-43d9-f0207f77afcd@metacode.biz> (Wiktor Kwapisiewicz's message of "Fri, 6 Oct 2017 11:11:34 +0200") Message-ID: <874lrctv76.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=bluebird_Albanian_freedom_Semtex_War_on_Terrorism_Glock_BCCI_anthrax"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Linked Identities / URI Attributes status X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 10:48:40 -0000 --=bluebird_Albanian_freedom_Semtex_War_on_Terrorism_Glock_BCCI_anthrax Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 11:11, wiktor@metacode.biz said: > Is there anything that blocks URI Attributes [1] from being approved and > having an official (2-99) User Attribute type? I was not aware of that (expired) I-D. Anyway, I think that the User Attributes should not be extended over their use for an image. URIs can simply be represented by plain User IDs and software can easily detected such URIs if desired. The need to implement UAT only adds more complexity for a questionable purpose. Note that these image UAT were introduced due to marketing needs of PGP or NAT and (iirc) only specified after they had been introduced in their software. Salam-Shalom, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=bluebird_Albanian_freedom_Semtex_War_on_Terrorism_Glock_BCCI_anthrax Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWdddzQAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jYE/AQCsscC6HUcXePFdPj0aW25oMYL3Xgz6W77TxA2UuG0ckAEA1tRVtWd3BgGG 6iqjZ9xfhUomfVZCdDeteD0JV+BuWAU= =E/79 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=bluebird_Albanian_freedom_Semtex_War_on_Terrorism_Glock_BCCI_anthrax-- From nobody Fri Oct 6 09:26:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDF2134A19 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 09:26:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNW7-CGmZtJa for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 09:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mugenguild.com (mugenguild.com [5.135.189.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B7F313309C for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 09:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gate.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.1]) by mail.mugenguild.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22DF25FA24; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 18:26:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 18:26:35 +0200 From: Vincent Breitmoser To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171006162635.nnlwewcnbexckqza@calamity> References: <43412d30-51a2-1941-43d9-f0207f77afcd@metacode.biz> <874lrctv76.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <874lrctv76.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> Autocrypt: addr=look@my.amazin.horse; keydata=mQINBFAB3UABEADCyB/vbIBA3m1Bwc yjTieEMLySwYgt54EQ2hglOocdtIhqC+b05t6sLSkwx2ukxrU2cegnCBkdyF/FZ/+Et638CUEBbf 4bjplwpt2IPLazQgjkwjMuhz0OcYDpMhwimTvh3mIl+0wzpOts6mEmMw0QZdl3RXvIW+NSynOn7q mz/fAv4Htt6lv2Ka0s6R2voyi+5U7CcIqizPad5qZVn2uxmovcFreTzFt6nk37ZbbTfvA3e5F0bR RQeH3viT5XxpJF4Y76v/Ua+5N3Kd18K0sX85rD1G7cmxR2CZ5gW1X24sDqdYZdDbf10N39UIwjJH PTeuVMQqry792Ap0Etyj135YFCE0loDnZYKvy2Y1i0RuEdTUIonIHrLhe2J0bXQGbQImHIyMgB9/ lva8D+yvy2gyf2vjRhmJEEco7w9FdzP7p3PhKrUiTjRsjHw8iV8LOCFx9njZOq9mism9ZZ16tZpx 9mXOf11HcH1RtVuyyQRS/4ytQPzwshXdSDDW6Btkmo9AbZQKC54/hSyzpp3Br2T2xDH7ecnonDB/ jv8rWuKXSTbX3xWAIrNBNDcTYaNe4jkms4HF7jJE19eRlqsXMMx6Fxvrh4TtKICwJYJ3AUmXrK3X Ti/mjqYfJ1fpBn54rWs8nhSR1fuZPD+aMlcP8BDUPlNKPKtj0DGSh3/VlnnwARAQABtClWaW5jZW 50IEJyZWl0bW9zZXIgPGxvb2tAbXkuYW1hemluLmhvcnNlPokCOAQTAQIAIgUCVTNZmgIbAwYLCQ gHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQe9GDIN6t+hHcVg//aeiijNqsQ3pjbFQn3VvND7hNfJ vrVcLZ+U4kOzXPF818aVdOnDyNXyE17vBDDcvaZ730sCsZIRZJ3KhUJ+nPvdttKjUIGLARmx+pA3 Jl3IIv2uLtOb3I0TMuyfIGJVGF+q10/CeDMKVjKlmyOVrR0opkel+KEoN7VLq3Hf3zPKENO1HBgp LHeP31tlb9cgs+u4o2wLrVe9myHbuFBW7EjWbSvdz2zliwbsFeFVLMNcWrKAU0GkkiH69SgnwmXU RkhGma4L27GLtkHHufsxfbcPqPtmtCttsGZU4EmrghGUqVyDOxnn8ZqybzLrRfpin+OCIX+aHJz5 r2L8qtrP0LorNMX3Gopd26vfhNvq/wq8xk++bW1R5FmkaUhx9h+DhO2ybcg7p/E8JHc8zrWv+bb3 0o9lkrOaU8GxXrgtb1cjtbb+MxFvjm0Elw7MSZDG7sF/APFU6cwuIA9Nai/OGAUCSt/W2ecS8Zox cWWbGSEiDvjtEctkpmHjfVuGoL34966Olm41VdH+NjgoSYUJKx4Mty8DRcZxdyoXll84LvDkEEYK ZqOIACsJf8CDFvUkmhXc+moCj15Yxtj3/RslRVEiOUyrpDwB72zWcZG8YnzoyGxhcRIc/gFejO/y SI8bzCpYngeuTb5NjFG+ChGiInHbQcFeHBlaHtKi2o/B5axIO5Ag0EVDvOgQEQALJby/ztliToGE u1lslvWQUQ6teKZVUQ7hy9bM4N83G0AGLatUBHtY6PkJBe4XkIw3sK7LoFCV2W4GSt4zWp9l+kG3 /J8Ow7EFjN0F7DrCg0M0lMg9dQz9jYSoBR8skaH3BRzCq9AKIVKV94poL/G65289L7zKDHoZnnyF qbBtedYZir0SZx+kiouZ1qnmxRPaYmH2fkuiuvYEAyzLDLYM8F5gQhdZM4YVtuvSICYPet0z4CDi JX/vZmDi3AzzoEVaKeAM/0H9f9Ni547J2+8dZSllgTrA+fq0aMJVScAObIxTAQtEq0DoNBzPpVrm W10b4bmgePrAvNkifqSr5StymSBgwvoeW6GrJiyN4XhoLOadZzwgjqioR1nXw5tXtrr5sYdkZ06b 1WWHkxtu1hFTdLC7RYNxY07ytLNM+C2lplCwCwlWB7RwI9BL1Dhre4kv8uaaX2Gksaq9mDf9MSDW qQ0TJ/RAiwMGmFrzBEYI1J2Oyeshi/dqW4/OiZAukOIlxOnt6u8zU2KL6Qjxqqna0oTbS4Zv3fRd YkuUCL6CDEJdkuRAiW+Gw+lKcMjXqApEqixhaDkoB/kwtu+2gIFTzAxMfwFN1YtNc0kJZWnFkGIW MrrwTcOwAFzlFz7wn/EyMFtg+ERcqMX0+olXDwM8MODI2+BzulPuEDEteCw09hABEBAAGJAh8EGA ECAAkFAlQ7zoECGwwACgkQe9GDIN6t+hFjuQ//UQyg49f8TytUYQaBb8R0UfI+KhQFs1Nsz2z8a3 0CD1MeiHHYWdAcomVvTkg4g5LbnYHVDrj/XagY3FN/AIE97usFbsTG+rsWAOLi7N2dN2ehWZ634k MvrgyC9uTiOdkw31+B8K5MpyySgD8e6SAzRfiu06/bcQOUyJifw8Hudpj9by4uyGhSH+kHu4afrp OduUighbsGFtcuRwwQ/w/oSk68XvPUgiOQWMZh/pVoXdFyFvrt/hgArCi8dfy5UPK58nl7jPnu/I uQXrJ50nNAFIIxPVeo2/B83KAnEZPU+qWZsdba0V+FIIQQVizLtQFMuJJk4/UTAOfJ2tBpQ9PADX 6/scqDE7unXNWdxcHTjK7KmWjXC8CyhGOx8V/rb7Ial4mZo4cTED6SNlO7dV1XYwnSctL2HCYNM3 RUe4eJ7JWuu7/Nbf6yip2eq7BQKZ9hAH/se/OSZNYsEkZ4pxUc8W5U3uAZImUwC6L74SM0jBZIuD mQhOYX6sZZ6urIn/MYlj4/hqSBFS4vTK7nXRLmtr7+5T5U5srVseUiYc+l9pu9/XD8zGIu+M2xEd 41NwP44GDQTQm0bFljRv5fSblwmi56YHPFQUIh2RZNX3kOJgeyQ3enw5uY+7ocKRVP38hpnffliL lJcO6TtHWnElS3pACbTQM0RHJox3zqU3q6K3c= User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Linked Identities / URI Attributes status X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 16:26:43 -0000 Hi there, this draft of linked identities (and the corresponding implementation in openkeychain) is by me :) cheers Wiktor for bringing it up again! > URIs can simply be represented by plain User IDs and software can > easily detected such URIs if desired. I'll try to describe some more why I went with a user attribute over simple user ids. Most importantly, URI attribute are intended for identities that are encoded as URIs, not simply user-facing urls that might have some unspecified association to the user. This means that a typical URI in there won't be "clickable", which will be confusing at best (and a security issue at worst) for the user. For instance, this is one of the uri attributes on my key: openpgpid+cookie:@https://twitter.com/Valodim/status/592675006880022529 A secondary thought is that, while the content explicitly isn't restricted, overloading user ids with more stuff adds to the amount of guesswork implementations have to do to interpret and display them in a helpful way. For URI Attributes, if an implementation has no handler for the schema, then not showing them at all is the reasonable thing to do. On a related note, personally I would be happier if user ids were name-addr not only by convention, and we made better use of the user attribute namespace for stuff like telephone numbers or whatever other types of identities some people want to stuff in their keys. > The need to implement UAT only adds more complexity for a questionable > purpose. User attributes with unknown attribute id already have to be handled as opaque packets, so it adds zero complexity to implementations that don't want to handle them. If an implementation chokes on user attributes in general, that's a bug in the implementation, not the spec. > Note that these image UAT were introduced due to marketing needs of > PGP or NAT and (iirc) only specified after they had been introduced in > their software. While this is an interesting historical note, I don't believe it's a good basis for a decision here. If avoiding use of uats for this reason is in fact general consensus, they should be deprecated in rfc4880-bis. If it's not, I don't see anything wrong with assigning new attribute ids. - V From nobody Sat Oct 7 01:43:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903C0134541 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2017 01:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FGNsWOOfdFye for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2017 01:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFB4413453D for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2017 01:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1e0khu-0007Wc-9c for ; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 10:43:38 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.84 #3 (Debian)) id 1e0kci-0000ch-0J; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 10:38:16 +0200 From: Werner Koch To: Vincent Breitmoser Cc: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , openpgp@ietf.org References: <43412d30-51a2-1941-43d9-f0207f77afcd@metacode.biz> <874lrctv76.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <20171006162635.nnlwewcnbexckqza@calamity> Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: Vincent Breitmoser , Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , openpgp@ietf.org Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2017 10:37:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20171006162635.nnlwewcnbexckqza@calamity> (Vincent Breitmoser's message of "Fri, 6 Oct 2017 18:26:35 +0200") Message-ID: <87lgkns68t.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=enemy_of_the_state_Project_Monarch_North_Korea_Soviet_morse_spies=Mo"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Linked Identities / URI Attributes status X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2017 08:43:42 -0000 --=enemy_of_the_state_Project_Monarch_North_Korea_Soviet_morse_spies=Mo Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 18:26, look@my.amazin.horse said: > A secondary thought is that, while the content explicitly isn't > restricted, overloading user ids with more stuff adds to the amount of > guesswork implementations have to do to interpret and display them in a You don't need to do any guesswork. We have notation data which can be used to add meta data to a user id. Hiding things which might act as identities in UAT does not feel right. We better keep UAT for what they are used today - for the more or less useless photo-ids Shalom-Salam, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=enemy_of_the_state_Project_Monarch_North_Korea_Soviet_morse_spies=Mo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWdiSYgAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jVCeAP9ml5qFdMpz04uaVzmsG8UOABzRL8VQCSY/z9Kh8iTWWgEAiCIQYMQGQLeO KiQZo7od5LqxizxowLIWGMgDxAnMmQY= =8JWC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=enemy_of_the_state_Project_Monarch_North_Korea_Soviet_morse_spies=Mo-- From nobody Thu Oct 12 06:18:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D81344E2 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=metacode.biz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EQvB3NLrn_YM for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 691091344E1 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c82so5906424lfc.6 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=metacode.biz; s=2011; h=subject:references:to:from:openpgp:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=3FQ/ySFQ5BDhGLRMz0DGVZfanA6Nex7T90086jBbk6M=; b=B9RnVgZ+VVlqNcG87lL/cJBP3GOFRIp+DivcV8oDLm0R5Q/89HnvDSuSJl++4DGUbJ lX3nrfOxlfJNqEHaImCzWYUediEpVLfKVwNHtV3o0WXzA10dcHe9E8kgQCBcFIS1ydTS Fq1hGsazFj8it7eVSxpH2uDw3HO+Ag0TM30/A= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:to:from:openpgp:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=3FQ/ySFQ5BDhGLRMz0DGVZfanA6Nex7T90086jBbk6M=; b=f2xkw680CLIkPhGw36GW22sScHUKiy6y47gyyzyDS65aP+MXxJp5P8fG+7qEmbysX5 SNqBeWReo143ZqwvHFPbtIVUKlV17ihE0YW/u5CKqBlt515NQ3YZYWKaPqcgWcWOk+sF BBWhuetyc7TpAbQ7CNDQXULCnpozPWmIamEAY9+kVvxL5S7TdjHwEMcxmmX5ZguIv7IP YNwKy/ypCG3DEi+zMlADTxcLAqfDgjzITWDSe+WJa0G7/mpD+h4GBa8GWqL+Y6WQki5A XHYFAITPooRXZsgMyFOnj4qdQ62VhXjB4khlDWNSO99bgkjsD74/M9Zp9o78VMnYuJ6F JCSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWe45tvhZgq2JOM2HmlLsHiuHwKBh+s/m/n7QdHnHf9/gWeNTk1 epKE+zCszYDq5ZO+O/oiRqLmCTM/Xuo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QxnVcfv+jQfR2YtIBeJZveEIrBH+p52GFesAtyjD4XbooNiNittsmD4FGBkpwDRdrQs3mdlQ== X-Received: by 10.46.34.129 with SMTP id i123mr123680lji.106.1507814324438; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.69] (89-64-37-77.dynamic.chello.pl. [89.64.37.77]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q67sm3632153lja.19.2017.10.12.06.18.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:18:43 -0700 (PDT) References: <43412d30-51a2-1941-43d9-f0207f77afcd@metacode.biz> <874lrctv76.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> To: Werner Koch , openpgp@ietf.org From: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Openpgp: id=653909A2F0E37C106F5FAF546C8857E0D8E8F074 Organization: Metacode Message-ID: <8dc32ddd-307a-d0a9-2bda-0497cec4cba0@metacode.biz> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 15:18:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <874lrctv76.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Linked Identities / URI Attributes status X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 13:18:49 -0000 > I was not aware of that (expired) I-D.=C2=A0 Anyway, I think that the U= ser > Attributes should not be extended over their use for an image.=C2=A0 UR= Is can > simply be represented by plain User IDs and software can easily detecte= d > such URIs if desired. This is an excellent idea. Coupled with signature notation data, that can be made critical one can assure that unknown Linked Identity UIDs would be considered invalid by software that does not understand a particular notation data proof. Not to mention UIDs and Notation Data can be added using command line tools that already exist. But I do have to agree with Vincent that if UATs are deprecated they should be marked as such. Actually, previously I got a very different impression when I diffed RFC 4880 and 4880 bis-02 and saw new section "5.13.2.=C2=A0 User ID Attribute= Subpacket" [0] that was introduced for Device Certificates [1]. Is this something old to be removed or an entirely different case? Kind regards, Wiktor [0]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc4880bis-02#section-5.13= =2E2 [1]: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/openpgp/current/msg08460.html From nobody Wed Oct 25 02:16:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF66139950 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 02:16:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ribose.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gDCokCEdKIry for ; 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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:04:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o0qxj3uKp4Um for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E0661388A0 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1e7NDu-0004Bz-Mi for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:04:02 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.84 #3 (Debian)) id 1e7N7m-0006k6-02; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:57:42 +0200 From: Werner Koch To: Ronald Tse Cc: "openpgp\@ietf.org" References: Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: Ronald Tse , "openpgp\@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:57:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Ronald Tse's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:16:42 +0000") Message-ID: <87r2tr8eca.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=Leitrim_Medco_Downing_Street_Geraldton_industrial_espionage_Ortega=S"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:07 -0000 --=Leitrim_Medco_Downing_Street_Geraldton_industrial_espionage_Ortega=S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:16, tse@ribose.com said: > Diffs > * https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis/merge_requests/8/diffs Can you please send the diff to this mailing list so that we do not need to rely on external sources in the archives of this ML. it is also easier for me to work with patches send by mail. > > Please feel free to let me know what you think. Thanks! > > Kind regards, > Ron > > P.S. this merge request includes https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis= /merge_requests/7 as the document wasn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cbuildable=E2=80= =9D due to a missing reference to RFC 7748. > > _____________________________________ > > Ronald Tse > Ribose Inc. > > +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ > This message may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to > receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, > disclose or take any action based on this message or any > information herein. If you have received this message in > error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. > +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ > > _______________________________________________ > openpgp mailing list > openpgp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=Leitrim_Medco_Downing_Street_Geraldton_industrial_espionage_Ortega=S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWfCmZQAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jVxpAPwNOp1ULMwKMz5XOQBo17zjNh8siEBfz3yXgFxqmEy4GgEA7wPgXYe4imlC GfAgOJU2ykdkDx4LA4PA/+T1nVK3zg8= =GqLL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=Leitrim_Medco_Downing_Street_Geraldton_industrial_espionage_Ortega=S-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 09:27:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AAB138AED for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:27:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vB9324rsLNEn for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21F3F13F41F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3yMbCB43yTz3JW; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:34 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1508948854; bh=Y3yuhedaWbL7EFtzID8ac6Q/nae41LfxLRnCIXq91FM=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=jxeEQRkBZKEpwQTe6W045A/t1tnXvzNMNOUKQiJlIYn+Vdt6NbuM+haqJNienqq9P gA0mpYlMP4ebBgGbBqC5l7NXdgmjXm5e1y674QtxobOysgTXQmU5EJf2d9d6AKx+jw HvGVVq7lK59fjM0QARstWwTyZsGoOwkH3RJ1xPx0= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9YVgowsZmAkp; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B987E62D29; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:27:30 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca B987E62D29 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F5240D35AF; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:27:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Ronald Tse cc: "openpgp@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:27:41 -0000 On Wed, 25 Oct 2017, Ronald Tse wrote: > Since bis-02 now formally defines the AEAD packet and an AEAD algorithm registry, I’d like to bring up the topic again of > adding OCB to the draft given its clear benefits. There have been previous mentions of patent concerns, but OCB is freely > licensed for open source tools and has been included in libraries like OpenSSL and Botan. What is the advantage of adding more and more algorithms and variants? If OCB is clearly a winner over another algorithm candidate to be added, is the inferior other candidate removed? Adding algorithms is easy. Removing them is hard. That should raise the bar for adding new ones. Paul From nobody Wed Oct 25 09:47:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9F213F422 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0dPYhW1xoVYI for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lb1-smtp-cloud7.xs4all.net (lb1-smtp-cloud7.xs4all.net [194.109.24.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FB8C139546 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fame.vanrein.org ([IPv6:2001:980:93a5:1::7]) by smtp-cloud7.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 7Oq3ec5GpVNbY7Oq4eapY4; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:47:32 +0200 Received: by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id D4D5B25708; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:47:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: openpgp@ietf.org Received: from airhead.local (phantom.vanrein.org [83.161.146.46]) by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5CD8F256FF; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:47:18 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:47:17 +0200 From: Rick van Rein User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.11 (Macintosh/20140602) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Wouters CC: Ronald Tse , "openpgp@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bogosity: Unsure, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.520000, version=1.2.4 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJ8JgRCYPx91BRKbKrry031mo8oMcJ5rrQovCGuRVs15GUUmOJRNC0JBTS8BW7SDqzmIoqjORirM77vFQ5sFSfJeI2m8OAOrWyuaRodEFT1/r9nMaHpJ pWBrCfRTPYrFwFVkL12b4wMAnYTD4J+Ak0M+Kv/S29+Xf9YTVNV6HVzfFC4nd0VOFuluL/YuEFo0xA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:47:36 -0000 Hi, > Adding algorithms is easy. Removing them is hard. That should raise the > bar for adding new ones. I second that. There should be a good reason for adding new algorithms. (Which is always subjective because it is really helpful to have things to fall back on when a part fails, security-wise.) Along the same lines I'm also surprised that no effort has been made to deprecate 2.x PGP packet formats and public key formats, for instance. We all know that such old keys don't have a reason to exist anymore, but we're all still coding the old and new in order to be compliant to the standards. 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boundary="_000_B64A40C9CC5B4F05ABBF5E4D257C621Bribosecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ribose.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b976b6bc-96d5-42eb-4781-08d51c1018f1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Oct 2017 01:23:00.5063 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: d98a04ff-ef98-489b-b33c-13c23a2e091a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PS1PR01MB1050 Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Proposed patch to fix missing reference to RFC 7748 X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:23:08 -0000 --_000_B64A40C9CC5B4F05ABBF5E4D257C621Bribosecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Werner, The current master of the rfc4880bis repository does not build due to missi= ng reference files for RFC 7748. The proposed patch can be seen at this link and also attached below: - https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis/merge_requests/7 commit b07f525d32fa22b282232a18699b062df1231460 Author: Ronald Tse > Date: Wed Oct 25 16:42:26 2017 +0800 Fix missing XML reference to RFC 7748 diff --git a/reference.RFC.7748.xml b/reference.RFC.7748.xml new file mode 100644 index 0000000..52c9c5a --- /dev/null +++ b/reference.RFC.7748.xml @@ -0,0 +1,14 @@ + + + + +Elliptic Curves for Security + + + + +This memo specifies two elliptic curves over prime fields tha= t offer a high level of practical security in cryptographic applications, i= ncluding Transport Layer Security (TLS). These curves are intended to oper= ate at the ~128-bit and ~224-bit security level, respectively, and are gene= rated deterministically based on a list of required properties. + + + + diff --git a/template.xml b/template.xml index 51cf425..2527e28 100644 --- a/template.xml +++ b/template.xml @@ -22,6 +22,7 @@ + ]> @@ -215,6 +216,7 @@ &rfc.4086; &rfc.5639; &rfc.5870; + &rfc.7748; &eddsa; _____________________________________ Ronald Tse Ribose Inc. +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ --_000_B64A40C9CC5B4F05ABBF5E4D257C621Bribosecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Werner,

The current master of the rfc4880bis repository does not bu= ild due to missing reference files for RFC 7748.

The proposed patch can be seen at this link and also attach= ed below:
- https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis/merge_requests/7

commit b07f525d32fa22b282232a18699b062df1231460
Author: Ronald Tse <= ronald.tse@ribose.com>
Date:   Wed Oct 25 16:42:26 2017 +0800

    Fix missing XML reference to RFC 7748

diff --git a/reference.RFC.7748.xml b/reference.RFC.7748.xml
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..52c9c5a
--- /dev/null
+++ b/reference.RFC.7748.xml
@@ -0,0 +1,14 @@
+<?xml version=3D'1.0' encoding=3D'UTF-8'?>
+
+<reference  anchor=3D'RFC7748' target=3D'https://www.rfc-editor.org/i= nfo/rfc7748'>
+<front>
+<title>Elliptic Curves for Security</title>
+<author initials=3D'A.' surname=3D'Langley' fullname=3D'A. Langley'= ><organization /></author>
+<author initials=3D'M.' surname=3D'Hamburg' fullname=3D'M. Hamburg'= ><organization /></author>
+<author initials=3D'S.' surname=3D'Turner' fullname=3D'S. Turner'&g= t;<organization /></author>
+<date year=3D'2016' month=3D'January' />
+<abstract><t>This memo specifies two elliptic curves over = prime fields that offer a high level of practical security in cryptogr= aphic applications, including Transport Layer Security (TLS). &nb= sp;These curves are intended to operate at the ~128-bit and ~224-bit security level, respectively, and are generated deterministically bas= ed on a list of required properties.</t></abstract>
+</front>
+<seriesInfo name=3D'RFC' value=3D'7748'/>
+<seriesInfo name=3D'DOI' value=3D'10.17487/RFC7748'/>
+</reference>
diff --git a/template.xml b/template.xml
index 51cf425..2527e28 100644
--- a/template.xml
+++ b/template.xml
@@ -22,6 +22,7 @@
   <!ENTITY rfc.5639       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.5639.xml'>
   <!ENTITY rfc.5870       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.5870.xml'>
   <!ENTITY rfc.6090       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.6090.xml'>
+  <!ENTITY rfc.7748       PUBLIC= '' 'reference.RFC.7748.xml'>
   <!ENTITY iso.10646      PUBLIC '' 'refe= rence.ISO.10646-1.1993.xml'>
   <!ENTITY eddsa          PUBLI= C '' 'reference.I-D.irtf-cfrg-eddsa.xml'>
 ]>
@@ -215,6 +216,7 @@
       &rfc.4086;
       &rfc.5639;
       &rfc.5870;
+      &rfc.7748;
 
       &eddsa;
 

_____________________________________

Ronald Tse
Ribose Inc.

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boundary="_000_87F231F704A6485A822FB6BFFD13C6DEribosecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ribose.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4f16847e-f1ac-404d-c174-08d51c1070d5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Oct 2017 01:25:27.9029 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: d98a04ff-ef98-489b-b33c-13c23a2e091a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PS1PR01MB1050 Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Proposed patch to add OCB to AEAD section X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:25:35 -0000 --_000_87F231F704A6485A822FB6BFFD13C6DEribosecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi openpgp WGers, This is the proposed patch to add OCB to 4880bis. The proposed patch can be seen at this link and also attached below: - https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis/merge_requests/8 commit 74052ffc18c60d5388475a34ffb78d82b3cecd65 Author: Ronald Tse > Date: Wed Oct 25 17:01:25 2017 +0800 Propose addition of OCB mode to AEAD. diff --git a/middle.mkd b/middle.mkd index 686c1cf..835906b 100644 --- a/middle.mkd +++ b/middle.mkd @@ -2645,8 +2645,7 @@ A new random initialization vector MUST be used for e= ach message. ### EAX Mode -The only currently defined AEAD algorithm is EAX Mode -[](#EAX). This algorithm can only use block ciphers with 16-octet +The EAX algorithm can only use block ciphers with 16-octet blocks. The starting initialization vector and authentication tag are both 16 octets long. @@ -2660,6 +2659,51 @@ exclusive-oring the low eight octets of it with the = chunk index. The security of EAX requires that the nonce is never reused, hence the requirement that the starting initialization vector be unique. + +### OCB Mode + +The OCB Authenticated-Encryption Algorithm used in this document is +defined in [](#RFC7253). + +OCB was initially defined in [](#OCB1) (now called "OCB1") for +authenticated encryption, then as an authenticated encryption with +associated data algorithm with tweakable blockciphers in [](#OCB2) +("OCB2"), and finally with performance enhancements as [](#OCB3) +("OCB3"). + +The [](#RFC7253) algorithm differs from "OCB3" such that tag length +is encoded into the internally formatted nonce. + +OCB usage requires specification of the following parameters: + + * a blockcipher that operate on 128-bit (16-octet) blocks + * an authentication tag length of 128 bits + +While OCB [](#RFC7253) allows the authentication tag length to be of +any number up to 128 bits long, this document requires a fixed +authentication tag length of 128 bits (16 octets) for simplicity. + +The nonce for a chunk of chunk index "i" in OCB processing is defined +as: + + OCB-Nonce_{i} =3D IV[1..120] xor i + +Where, + + * IV is the initialization vector of the message; + * IV[i..j] is the substring of IV consisting of bits i through j, + inclusive, in big-endian format. + +The value of OCB-Nonce_{i} is always 120 bits (15 octets) long as the +longest allowed nonce length of OCB mode according to [](#RFC7253). + +Security of OCB mode depends on the non-repeated nature of nonces used +for the same key on distinct plaintext [](#RFC7253). Therefore the +initialization vector per message MUST be distinct, and OCB mode +SHOULD only be used in environments when there is certainty to +fulfilling this requirement. + + # {6} Radix-64 Conversions As stated in the introduction, OpenPGP's underlying native @@ -3214,10 +3258,11 @@ SHOULD NOT use MD5 or RIPE-MD/160. ID Algorithm -------- --------- 1 EAX [](#EAX) + 2 OCB [](#RFC7253) 100--110 Private/Experimental algorithm Implementations MUST implement EAX. Implementations MAY implement -other algorithms. +OCB and other algorithms. # {10} IANA Considerations diff --git a/reference.RFC.7253.xml b/reference.RFC.7253.xml new file mode 100644 index 0000000..5e8cdf3 --- /dev/null +++ b/reference.RFC.7253.xml @@ -0,0 +1,13 @@ + + + + +The OCB Authenticated-Encryption Algorithm + + + +This document specifies OCB, a shared-key blockcipher-based e= ncryption scheme that provides confidentiality and authenticity for plainte= xts and authenticity for associated data. This document is a product of th= e Crypto Forum Research Group (CFRG). + + + + diff --git a/template.xml b/template.xml index 2527e28..28f0cac 100644 --- a/template.xml +++ b/template.xml @@ -22,6 +22,7 @@ + @@ -102,7 +103,35 @@ - + + + + + OCB: A Block-Cipher Mode of Operation for Efficient Authent= icated Encryption + + + + + + + + + + + Efficient Instantiations of Tweakable Blockciphers and Refi= nements to Modes OCB and PMAC. + + + + + + + + The Software Performance of Authenticated-Encryption Modes<= /title> + <author surname=3D"Krovetz" initials=3D"T." /> + <author surname=3D"Rogaway" initials=3D"P." /> + <date year=3D"2011" month=3D"April" /> + </front> + </reference> <reference anchor=3D'ELGAMAL'> <front> @@ -216,6 +245,7 @@ &rfc.4086; &rfc.5639; &rfc.5870; + &rfc.7253; &rfc.7748; &eddsa; _____________________________________ Ronald Tse Ribose Inc. +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. 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Thank you for your cooperation. +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ --_000_87F231F704A6485A822FB6BFFD13C6DEribosecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <F3590687CC6919428A63CFE21265F9F2@apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > </head> <body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:= after-white-space;" class=3D""> <div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: = after-white-space;" class=3D""> Hi openpgp WGers, <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">This is the proposed patch to add OCB to 4880bis. <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">The proposed patch can be seen at this link and also attach= ed below:</div> <div class=3D"">- <a href=3D"https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis/merge= _requests/7" class=3D""> https://gitlab.com/openpgp-wg/rfc4880bis/merge_requests/8</a></div> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D""> <div class=3D"">commit 74052ffc18c60d5388475a34ffb78d82b3cecd65<br class=3D= ""> Author: Ronald Tse <<a href=3D"mailto:ronald.tse@ribose.com" class=3D"">= ronald.tse@ribose.com</a>><br class=3D""> Date:   Wed Oct 25 17:01:25 2017 +0800<br class=3D""> <br class=3D"">     Propose addition of OCB mode to AEAD.<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> diff --git a/middle.mkd b/middle.mkd<br class=3D""> index 686c1cf..835906b 100644<br class=3D""> --- a/middle.mkd<br class=3D""> +++ b/middle.mkd<br class=3D""> @@ -2645,8 +2645,7 @@ A new random initialization vector MUST be used f= or each message.<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D"">  ### EAX Mode<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D""> -The only currently defined AEAD algorithm is EAX Mode<br class=3D""> -[](#EAX).  This algorithm can only use block ciphers with 16-oct= et<br class=3D""> +The EAX algorithm can only use block ciphers with 16-octet<br class=3D= "">  blocks.  The starting initialization vector and authenticat= ion tag are<br class=3D"">  both 16 octets long.<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D""> @@ -2660,6 +2659,51 @@ exclusive-oring the low eight octets of it with = the chunk index.<br class=3D"">  The security of EAX requires that the nonce is never reused, hence th= e<br class=3D"">  requirement that the starting initialization vector be unique.<br cla= ss=3D"">  <br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +### OCB Mode<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +The OCB Authenticated-Encryption Algorithm used in this document is<br= class=3D""> +defined in [](#RFC7253).<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +OCB was initially defined in [](#OCB1) (now called "OCB1") f= or<br class=3D""> +authenticated encryption, then as an authenticated encryption with<br = class=3D""> +associated data algorithm with tweakable blockciphers in [](#OCB2)<br = class=3D""> +("OCB2"), and finally with performance enhancements as [](#O= CB3)<br class=3D""> +("OCB3").<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +The [](#RFC7253) algorithm differs from "OCB3" such that tag= length<br class=3D""> +is encoded into the internally formatted nonce.<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +OCB usage requires specification of the following parameters:<br class= =3D""> +<br class=3D""> +  * a blockcipher that operate on 128-bit (16-octet) blocks<= br class=3D""> +  * an authentication tag length of 128 bits<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +While OCB [](#RFC7253) allows the authentication tag length to be of<b= r class=3D""> +any number up to 128 bits long, this document requires a fixed<br clas= s=3D""> +authentication tag length of 128 bits (16 octets) for simplicity.<br c= lass=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +The nonce for a chunk of chunk index "i" in OCB processing i= s defined<br class=3D""> +as:<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +    OCB-Nonce_{i} =3D IV[1..120] xor i<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +Where,<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +  * IV is the initialization vector of the message;<br class= =3D""> +  * IV[i..j] is the substring of IV consisting of bits i thr= ough j,<br class=3D""> +    inclusive, in big-endian format.<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +The value of OCB-Nonce_{i} is always 120 bits (15 octets) long as the<= br class=3D""> +longest allowed nonce length of OCB mode according to [](#RFC7253).<br= class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +Security of OCB mode depends on the non-repeated nature of nonces used= <br class=3D""> +for the same key on distinct plaintext [](#RFC7253). Therefore the<br = class=3D""> +initialization vector per message MUST be distinct, and OCB mode<br cl= ass=3D""> +SHOULD only be used in environments when there is certainty to<br clas= s=3D""> +fulfilling this requirement.<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D"">  # {6}  Radix-64 Conversions<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D"">  As stated in the introduction, OpenPGP's underlying native<br class= =3D""> @@ -3214,10 +3258,11 @@ SHOULD NOT use MD5 or RIPE-MD/160.<br class=3D"= ">         ID  Algorithm<br class=3D"">   --------  ---------<br class=3D"">          1  EAX [](#EAX)<br class=3D""> +        2  OCB [](#RFC7253)<br clas= s=3D"">   100--110  Private/Experimental algorithm<br class=3D"= ">  <br class=3D"">  Implementations MUST implement EAX.  Implementations MAY im= plement<br class=3D""> -other algorithms.<br class=3D""> +OCB and other algorithms.<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D"">  # {10} IANA Considerations<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D""> diff --git a/reference.RFC.7253.xml b/reference.RFC.7253.xml<br class=3D""> new file mode 100644<br class=3D""> index 0000000..5e8cdf3<br class=3D""> --- /dev/null<br class=3D""> +++ b/reference.RFC.7253.xml<br class=3D""> @@ -0,0 +1,13 @@<br class=3D""> +<?xml version=3D'1.0' encoding=3D'UTF-8'?><br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +<reference  anchor=3D'RFC7253' target=3D'<a href=3D"https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7253" class=3D"">https://www.rfc-editor.org/i= nfo/rfc7253</a>'><br class=3D""> +<front><br class=3D""> +<title>The OCB Authenticated-Encryption Algorithm</title><= br class=3D""> +<author initials=3D'T.' surname=3D'Krovetz' fullname=3D'T. Krovetz'= ><organization /></author><br class=3D""> +<author initials=3D'P.' surname=3D'Rogaway' fullname=3D'P. Rogaway'= ><organization /></author><br class=3D""> +<date year=3D'2014' month=3D'May' /><br class=3D""> +<abstract><t>This document specifies OCB, a shared-key blo= ckcipher-based encryption scheme that provides confidentiality and aut= henticity for plaintexts and authenticity for associated data. &n= bsp;This document is a product of the Crypto Forum Research Group (CFR= G).</t></abstract><br class=3D""> +</front><br class=3D""> +<seriesInfo name=3D'RFC' value=3D'7253'/><br class=3D""> +<seriesInfo name=3D'DOI' value=3D'10.17487/RFC7253'/><br class= =3D""> +</reference><br class=3D""> diff --git a/template.xml b/template.xml<br class=3D""> index 2527e28..28f0cac 100644<br class=3D""> --- a/template.xml<br class=3D""> +++ b/template.xml<br class=3D""> @@ -22,6 +22,7 @@<br class=3D"">    <!ENTITY rfc.5639       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.5639.xml'><br class=3D"">    <!ENTITY rfc.5870       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.5870.xml'><br class=3D"">    <!ENTITY rfc.6090       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.6090.xml'><br class=3D""> +  <!ENTITY rfc.7253       PUBLIC= '' 'reference.RFC.7253.xml'><br class=3D"">    <!ENTITY rfc.7748       PUBLIC '' = 'reference.RFC.7748.xml'><br class=3D"">    <!ENTITY iso.10646      PUBLIC '' 'refe= rence.ISO.10646-1.1993.xml'><br class=3D"">    <!ENTITY eddsa          PUBLI= C '' 'reference.I-D.irtf-cfrg-eddsa.xml'><br class=3D""> @@ -102,7 +103,35 @@<br class=3D"">          <author surname=3D"Wagner" i= nitials=3D"D." /><br class=3D"">          <date year=3D"2003" month=3D= "April" /><br class=3D"">          </front><br class=3D""> -    </reference><br class=3D""> +      </reference><br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +      <reference anchor=3D'OCB1'><br class= =3D""> +        <front><br class=3D""> +        <title>OCB: A Block-Cipher Mode= of Operation for Efficient Authenticated Encryption</title><br = class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Rogaway&qu= ot; initials=3D"P." /><br class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Bellare&qu= ot; initials=3D"M." /><br class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Black"= ; initials=3D"J." /><br class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Krovetz&qu= ot; initials=3D"T." /><br class=3D""> +        <date year=3D"2001" mont= h=3D"April" /><br class=3D""> +        </front><br class=3D""> +      </reference><br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +      <reference anchor=3D'OCB2'><br class= =3D""> +        <front><br class=3D""> +        <title>Efficient Instantiations= of Tweakable Blockciphers and Refinements to Modes OCB and PMAC.</= title><br class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Rogaway&qu= ot; initials=3D"P." /><br class=3D""> +        <date year=3D"2004" mont= h=3D"April" /><br class=3D""> +        </front><br class=3D""> +      </reference><br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +      <reference anchor=3D'OCB3'><br class= =3D""> +        <front><br class=3D""> +        <title>The Software Performance= of Authenticated-Encryption Modes</title><br class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Krovetz&qu= ot; initials=3D"T." /><br class=3D""> +        <author surname=3D"Rogaway&qu= ot; initials=3D"P." /><br class=3D""> +        <date year=3D"2011" mont= h=3D"April" /><br class=3D""> +        </front><br class=3D""> +      </reference><br class=3D"">  <br class=3D"">        <reference anchor=3D'ELGAMAL'><br class=3D= "">          <front><br class=3D""> @@ -216,6 +245,7 @@<br class=3D"">        &rfc.4086;<br class=3D"">        &rfc.5639;<br class=3D"">        &rfc.5870;<br class=3D""> +      &rfc.7253;<br class=3D"">        &rfc.7748;<br class=3D"">  <br class=3D"">        &eddsa;<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t= ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm= al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w= rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-= space;" class=3D""> _____________________________________<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Ronald Tse<br class=3D""> Ribose Inc.<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+<br class=3D""> This message may contain confidential and/or privileged<br class=3D""> information.  If you are not the addressee or authorized to<br class= =3D""> receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy,<br class=3D""> disclose or take any action based on this message or any<br class=3D""> information herein.  If you have received this message in<br class=3D"= "> error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail<br class=3D""> and delete this message.  Thank you for your cooperation.<br class=3D"= "> +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+</div> </div> <br class=3D""> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_87F231F704A6485A822FB6BFFD13C6DEribosecom_-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 18:34:34 2017 Return-Path: <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D89313A5AF for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:34:26 +1300 Received: from uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.25]) by uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:34:26 +1300 From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis Thread-Index: AQHTTXH5w45VH0tw2ky7nHf16p0Us6L1We9k Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:34:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> In-Reply-To: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-NZ X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [130.216.158.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/NYCrsds2w7rBCIiuItx1q9qzGpc> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:34:32 -0000 Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> writes:=0A= =0A= >There have been previous mentions of patent concerns, but OCB is freely=0A= >licensed for open source tools and has been included in libraries like=0A= >OpenSSL and Botan.=0A= =0A= It's a lot more problematic than that. While I support the OCB patent=0A= holder's stand on a moral basis, the licensing unfortunately makes it=0A= impossible to use for general software, which is a real shame because it's = a=0A= very nice crypto mechanism. Examples of some general-purpose uses of crypt= o=0A= and how the license affects them:=0A= =0A= Banking: No, because members of the military might be customers.=0A= =0A= Email: No, because it might go to/come from a .mil address.=0A= =0A= Ordering a pizza online: No, because it might be sent to a military base.= =0A= =0A= (Some of these are from actual legal analyses of the implications of using = it,=0A= not just me coming up with corner cases).=0A= =0A= IDEA had the same problem, it was more or less OK to use in open-source typ= e=0A= software, but was still sufficiently problematic that it was removed from= =0A= OpenPGP. It's the same with OCB, the license terms require that you track= =0A= every single use and user of the software in order to verify that the use i= s=0A= non-infringing. That makes it unusable for real-world purposes, i.e. where= =0A= commercial entities are involved.=0A= =0A= Peter.=0A= =0A= From nobody Wed Oct 25 18:47:07 2017 Return-Path: <tse@ribose.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04AD13B144 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:47:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ribose.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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(10.165.211.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.156.4; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:46:52 +0000 Received: from PS1PR01MB1050.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com ([fe80::f0e3:51e5:3abd:6c17]) by PS1PR01MB1050.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com ([fe80::f0e3:51e5:3abd:6c17%14]) with mapi id 15.20.0156.007; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:46:52 +0000 From: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> To: "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis Thread-Index: AQHTTXH5xYQNIsRUz0C1s+LLoU2hJaL0wWoAgAAFh4CAAJbBgA== Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:46:52 +0000 Message-ID: <4DDC897E-C632-4C2C-A741-F02EA51DD385@ribose.com> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> In-Reply-To: <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (3072-bit key) header.d=crustytoothpaste.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gvhFvCvGp-op for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from injection.crustytoothpaste.net (injection.crustytoothpaste.net [192.241.140.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61300139F44 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genre.crustytoothpaste.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:b978:101:254c:7dd1:74c7:cde0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by injection.crustytoothpaste.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 70D5C6044A for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 00:18:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=crustytoothpaste.net; s=default; t=1509063496; bh=CzQAenB3S9WYtPdIwPgr0wN4iCMjelhAw4YmwGvYsvE=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:Content-Type:Content-Disposition: In-Reply-To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Date:To:CC:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:Content-Disposition; b=qQXfqYsrmmwYsuUXcmHZNHILDOh82o552gkVjn79AZXBMNQGLonnKmrkSuJBPpDBI S3k5qz2DyzrV/xaKgF2zyBtLTaSMo7YiglxUevSJsFquW3NTgFLaCOVNhK6qVJs31l IaJ8IeBdDUpTNGLYYGf4R1jfPYCwb0Qdw2ZP6H/U1Bvjh58JO4U2+U/z7tyEy1ATgI ECtWg6NJ6dGZnyTKJENBACrMB5n8akNyfQMV+6ITZVFzwzf6xe2dZ9ZyJkKqbtOxTm U46AMqy2cX2aH/xAMpx6ceTHIO9mfjMM+AL2vCUS8FECeq+BnKuaRSNeJbXgU4Yy99 ekselzVjURPVdwlJYwV2qaPDZf7Jro3h04zK/q6pjKo8BU6yl/QTYEYoZV46+slTA4 zwEXepNcS6do+Fjgek9xTZ4PIVBwu6JXQT0RiLoqYIgyRwX4iRrBKQdTGpLkD02jIw lzY5Ode/kkPWQ48ontPjJgPHe5t4nJvLVQBYw8ZhZBa0X1GLp/4 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 00:18:10 +0000 From: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net> To: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171027001810.sr5invirfy2zqjia@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5smgcopjai4xd47g" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> X-Machine: Running on genre using GNU/Linux on x86_64 (Linux kernel 4.13.0-1-amd64) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 127.0.1.1 Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/5A9ZUAlD5bwfUYPmgoqs7J4ISz8> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 00:18:50 -0000 --5smgcopjai4xd47g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 02:03:02AM +0000, Ronald Tse wrote: > Perhaps I could clarify that the OCB patent is limited in regional > scope and does not apply outside of the US. For example, the NZ > military could order a pizza using OCB. Unfortunately, a patent anywhere is an impediment everywhere in the age of the Internet. > The OCB licenses provided on Rogaway=E2=80=99s page is very clear that op= en > source usage, such as in OpenSSL and any products based on OpenSSL, is > strictly allowed =E2=80=94 which means that military and hardware usage o= f OCB > through OpenSSL is already allowed. It's my reading of Rogaway's license that linking an open-source library against closed source software violates the patent license, even though it might not violate the library license. If a distro ships an OCB-enabled crypto library, it can't be used for any closed-source software shipped on that system (Chrome, Slack) or any non-open-source custom-built apps (say, an internal Rails app). Since crypto libraries like OpenSSL are very frequently linked against other software on the system, this is a terrible idea. The fact that it's this hard to understand the patent issues makes it really obvious why OCB is a bad idea. > I think we are slightly confusing an optional algorithm, which OCB is > proposed to be, with a mandatory one. A user should be able to specify > in their preferences that they don=E2=80=99t accept OCB. A .mil email add= ress > will probably specify they do not want OCB in this case. I'm generally opposed to including algorithms, even optional ones, which are patent-encumbered. The fact that an IPR declaration exists for an RFC is enough to scare off many companies from implementing it. I personally hate having to meet with company lawyers, even extremely knowledgable ones, about the type of crypto we use and the legal impacts of it. Adding OCB to the spec is going to cause a lot of those conversations that don't need to happen. > Given OpenPGP is supposed to be =E2=80=9Copen=E2=80=9D, people should be = able to state > their preferences as well as do what they want with it. >=20 > For example, Chinese cryptography law strictly forbids AES usage in > hardware. Does that mean Intel needs to drop AES-NI for chips sold in > China? The answer is no. People simply don=E2=80=99t use it because of th= ese > regulations. >=20 > This is the same with OCB =E2=80=94 if you don=E2=80=99t like it, don=E2= =80=99t want it, just > don't use it. It only enables people who want it to use it. Practically, a patent-encumbered algorithm is not likely to be implemented. The patent problems with OCB make it unlikely that it will be suitable for inclusion into the Red Hat or Debian archives. That means that most open-source implementations will not include it, and those that do will not interoperate with those that don't. Why should we add an algorithm which is likely to get little practical usage? OCB doesn't provide useful crypto agility, but it does provide yet another option, which we've tried to avoid in the specification. Additional algorithms are hard to deprecate and are a source of potential security bugs in implementations. I'm not saying OCB isn't a great block cipher mode, just that it's going to be practically unused because of the patent situation. > +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ > This message may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to > receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, > disclose or take any action based on this message or any > information herein. If you have received this message in > error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. > +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ If your mails are confidential, you probably want to stop sending them to a public mailing list. If not, you'll want to omit this message. --=20 brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US https://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only OpenPGP: https://keybase.io/bk2204 --5smgcopjai4xd47g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEX8OngXdrJt+H9ww3v1NdgR9S9osFAlnye0EACgkQv1NdgR9S 9ovYfA//dJwpFxYp/6tPK6CIm1/gOo52m/rLyITWVkaaumOd3B4M9jR931x/5pGM 7EJ2MKMY33pd6wj5BEkCa2S4oqu5ISC0OpxLTv1PKSzLq3dBGhlCUWFerWzz6hM1 Zrueb9dzv8aHQZT4TgF/UYR+nT10VfFJh6giGrkhcfC5s/921Fr/EWdvDkcrfLRM SWYmkUL9tE49Gcqi8cQVGIHiNr6J1TOQclAP6uUJbUU2hA7WThV9m4LYNuf+4zON ruI9lyzgJKwA2Mrh/qTZa/bW8DGnRHh3sQMwzvRfmw3Yb+N6qnhqeec0/vQS2B/E IdeAIDf9V50/k/vJCVv/6PSzJ7cSg5CUiTcPnMU1VvJr+/mzW4X7GeJEMcGBPCWE kt4yzGlfcyBH6ruMJR/ckH1612LbEE98rThLx8/31R3r/xPzfqkCMKiaeDS+Wul5 k9alL3zYWuSuAPa8Nd1t+wG3ERQenCOP5Qqpj9FaQ15KXS2C6HkkbvNB4IsU9rLz tbjicnEWxoQu4hDHhyVhwF/k8nXfBcDJcQB6I+ZQOGFeRUm5d7Qt0LoupQ6oiMs4 7KDF86iRi7NIn/dWu64dMOoEzmCoQoIvTTgZE7wuJrmHkoGAjumS5pr+luL2vONb DCr2w6PcW09lI74LEs/0DVw7iSBMr4bQExlMHdUb8I2adFyED1k= =Yoxc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5smgcopjai4xd47g-- From nobody Thu Oct 26 17:27:27 2017 Return-Path: <paul@nohats.ca> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080D613F491 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:27:14 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca 7674762D29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:26:19 -0400 Message-Id: <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> Cc: "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15A432) Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/566O2DmOgfSec74BFZVA2uL-fo0> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 00:27:26 -0000 > On Oct 25, 2017, at 22:03, Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> wrote: >=20 >=20 > I think we are slightly confusing an optional algorithm, which OCB is prop= osed to be, with a mandatory one. For IETF standards, optional or mandatory to implement, it should be unencum= bered and free to use. > A user should be able to specify in their preferences that they don=E2=80=99= t accept OCB. A .mil email address will probably specify they do not want OC= B in this case. This is not unencumbered or free to use and should disqualify this algorithm= for IETF. > For example, Chinese cryptography law strictly forbids AES usage in hardwa= re. Does that mean Intel needs to drop AES-NI for chips sold in China? The a= nswer is no. People simply don=E2=80=99t use it because of these regulations= . This example is wrong. IETF does not control other entities. It only control= s itself and set rules for itself. And one of those rules is =E2=80=9Cfree, g= ratis and unencumbered=E2=80=9D. > This is the same with OCB It is not, as you explain above. Paul= From nobody Fri Oct 27 01:39:08 2017 Return-Path: <wk@gnupg.org> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49E113A25A for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5_u3g-K-wzS for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEE5E138103 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1e80AS-0003G5-8y for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:39:04 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.84 #3 (Debian)) id 1e804K-0003fG-Mw; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:32:44 +0200 From: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org> To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:32:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> (Paul Wouters's message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:26:19 -0400") Message-ID: <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=lock_picking_eavesdropping_Kosovo_TELINT_morse_Project_Monarch=Bletc"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/CN5zW9e7qyrmYD6an1kcKp3Fi9Y> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:39:08 -0000 --=lock_picking_eavesdropping_Kosovo_TELINT_morse_Project_Monarch=Bletc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 02:26, paul@nohats.ca said: > For IETF standards, optional or mandatory to implement, it should be unen= cumbered and free to use. rfc2440 and rfc4880 both included IDEA as a SHOULD algorithm despite that IDEA was patent encumbered. Also RSA was patent encumbered when 2440 was published and nevertheless a SHOULD algorithm. Ronald proposed OCB as a MAY algorithm so that by the time the patent expires it can be used. We will anyway require a couple of years before a new algorithm can be used. It is up to the implementation to announce support for certain algorithms. Salam-Shalom, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=lock_picking_eavesdropping_Kosovo_TELINT_morse_Project_Monarch=Bletc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWfLvLAAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jZ7NAQDrQJxtMrxUbtlcCrPYNDZkj+TOK4NESFLs2X3SDlufXQEA5PmvNx7ad8ys 0ADKg8l/krymsTrAprL0X5BVO5b/qg8= =LxGh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=lock_picking_eavesdropping_Kosovo_TELINT_morse_Project_Monarch=Bletc-- From nobody Fri Oct 27 01:46:20 2017 Return-Path: <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0C7138103 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:46:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=auckland.ac.nz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rxQ7uqG3UM3V for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.auckland.ac.nz (mx4.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.125.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B443138726 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:46:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=auckland.ac.nz; i=@auckland.ac.nz; q=dns/txt; s=mail; t=1509093976; x=1540629976; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=LIX0CtGmDEPSRXkOL4wr2SlqaLHUWJFkG6ujlmXbIdA=; b=dfvt9zSuslF5PlSgz4hPiJ8IIf19aPvFTUiyCUX9PBHDgeNhAPpiLUJV QsypO0WA0T04Epw5Lg/7a5Tc1SGL1Ic25kOo6a+1nf/ksvwp4Gbtgp76E Y/iKtd4jFz3AXSvTMTZ2AA3mVBLJSotU+gHMdX74Cwcaw3Gxin6wE5ya5 u9lEqyW8L/LHCXhnoDqFmvlOVn7AdvbDT7S9kP44mzxAonHnia5ndrfVv zTUM4DjezaxAxMRLSxMeeAWIbamcpvaeJgNwBJKPPra9kxV8cRhrMG0d5 KINxMJEDjfrhF1j/P/LroCV/QcaDJR9KTSMQBQfGRIT8rvO+vMGx4t2Ub A==; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.44,304,1505736000"; d="scan'208";a="192229545" X-Ironport-HAT: MAIL-SERVERS - $RELAYED X-Ironport-Source: 10.6.2.8 - Outgoing - Outgoing Received: from exchangemx.uoa.auckland.ac.nz (HELO uxcn13-ogg-e.UoA.auckland.ac.nz) ([10.6.2.8]) by mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 27 Oct 2017 21:46:14 +1300 Received: from uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (10.6.2.5) by uxcn13-ogg-e.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (10.6.2.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:46:14 +1300 Received: from uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.25]) by uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:46:14 +1300 From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> To: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> CC: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis Thread-Index: AQHTTXH5w45VH0tw2ky7nHf16p0Us6L1We9k//8uWgCAAXdPgIABY7ExgAABjzs= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:46:13 +0000 Message-ID: <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca>, <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> In-Reply-To: <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-NZ X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [130.216.158.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/sj70dSrNmKGtPR1IMlv-zNn6NZY> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:46:19 -0000 Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org> writes:=0A= =0A= >rfc2440 and rfc4880 both included IDEA as a SHOULD algorithm despite that= =0A= >IDEA was patent encumbered. Also RSA was patent encumbered when 2440 was= =0A= >published and nevertheless a SHOULD algorithm.=0A= =0A= They were there because there wasn't much choice. PGP 2.0 used IDEA and RS= A,=0A= so it had to be kept around for future versions, although it was only a=0A= SHOULD, not a MUST. With OCB in contrast you're introducing a new patent-= =0A= encumbered algorithm for no obvious reason.=0A= =0A= If you really want the protection that OCB offers then encrypt-then-MAC is = a=0A= totally unencumbered way of doing the same thing. It's been in S/MIME for= =0A= years.=0A= =0A= Peter.= From nobody Fri Oct 27 03:13:00 2017 Return-Path: <tse@ribose.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335CC13F411 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:12:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ribose.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLqA6RSt3Iq5 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from APC01-SG2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sg2apc01on0056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.125.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CEF713B138 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:12:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ribose.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-ribose-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=6LQqIc5j0l9Ko7PIZav1j8/KwRrWn/DkXZulieaWkpk=; b=fUQfsHUWTyJ0D1NnVqQdrD5HUL6aQUC4KhNRWITzBLdZJSj4VT1yEML8a81GW/SbvGV/R41l+IE2CLqSepjgnrTjZaCx3wKTXgI9SE0L8I8QShAW6oOfL2QyU5DYx7jS9pAfx5OukrYsvJxbzm2eNZT5N/gCY4uyULPD+vkoq+M= Received: from KL1PR01MB1047.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.169.108.13) by KL1PR01MB1045.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.169.108.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.156.4; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 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DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_36023233856C4A6DBAF928037B4DA0F7ribosecom_-- From nobody Fri Oct 27 03:38:33 2017 Return-Path: <hanno@hboeck.de> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FF413F411 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bOIrJOecR3EV for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zucker2.schokokeks.org (zucker2.schokokeks.org [178.63.68.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ABA713B138 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc1 ([2001:2012:127:3e00:b3bf:56a1:a140:6086]) (AUTH: LOGIN hanno-default@schokokeks.org, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3, 256bits, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by zucker.schokokeks.org with ESMTPSA; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:38:27 +0200 id 00000000000000B8.0000000059F30CA3.00004936 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:38:26 +0200 From: Hanno =?UTF-8?B?QsO2Y2s=?= <hanno@hboeck.de> To: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171027123826.693047e6@pc1> In-Reply-To: <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1-dirty (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/GTqUlDolpqMowBl4c96QpW13t7M> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:38:32 -0000 On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:12:51 +0000 Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> wrote: > Again, OCB is proposed to be a MAY algorithm, not a MUST or even a > SHOULD =E2=80=94 if someone doesn't like it, there is no need to prevent > others from using it. I'd like to support what Paul Wouters was saying earlier in this thread. Don't add multiple algorithms unless there isn't a very good reason for it. Add one that is good for everything. Having a "may" algorithm only adds unneeded complexity that is more likely to cause any security issues than any potential disadvantage any modern AEAD has. The GPG protocol is far more complex than it has to be. One more note: Given that I don't see a particular rush in getting a new RFC out you may simply wait for the CAESAR competition and choose one of the resulting AEADs. --=20 Hanno B=C3=B6ck https://hboeck.de/ mail/jabber: hanno@hboeck.de GPG: FE73757FA60E4E21B937579FA5880072BBB51E42 From nobody Fri Oct 27 03:54:07 2017 Return-Path: <wk@gnupg.org> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50CB13F4F0 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:54:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4eJ7xZpqg6pk for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 542D613F46A for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 03:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1e82H5-0004L4-9M for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:54:03 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.84 #3 (Debian)) id 1e82DA-0004Rg-8e; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:50:00 +0200 From: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org> To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> Cc: "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! 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Mail-Followup-To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:49:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> (Ronald Tse's message of "Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:12:51 +0000") Message-ID: <8760b06f1k.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=Attorney_General_asset_Indigo_Peking_Ft._Bragg_USCOI_Baranyi_InfoSec"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/lOLo_0g036o1Bift92qkw7SBe4s> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:54:07 -0000 --=Attorney_General_asset_Indigo_Peking_Ft._Bragg_USCOI_Baranyi_InfoSec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! [I am only wearing my GnuPG maintainer's hat right now.] On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:12, tse@ribose.com said: > Again, OCB is proposed to be a MAY algorithm, not a MUST or even a SHOULD= =E2=80=94 if someone doesn't like it, there is no need to prevent others f= rom using it. Well, I would like to implement OCB in GnuPG at least to be prepared for the time after the patent(s) expiration. It will not be the default any time soon. I already remarked that I expect that it will take a couple of years before gpg with _any_ AEAD mode will be widely enough deployed so that an AEAD mode can actually be used. We have seen that it took many years before we could enforce the MDC mode despite that there is a key flag announcing it. It is unfortunate that we need to implement EAX for the very same reason that PGP5 had to use DSA/Elgamal instead of RSA. But delaying an AEAD mode even further would be worse. The patent situation is actually different between RSA+IDEA and OCB. For the former the holders of the patent went aggressively against everyone using them. For the latter the patent holder(s) gave explicit royalty free grants for almost all use cases. And the patents will expire in a few years - modulo the usual uncertainty with the patent system. Peter suggested to use encrypt-then-MAC to avoid all problems. This would require an entire different structure of the symmetric encryption code and thus adds complexity for a theoretical benefit over the MDC approach. We would still need to double process the data. Having an option to allowing switch the AEAD mode will be easier than to implement both, encrypt-then-MAC and one AEAD mode. Salam-Shalom, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=Attorney_General_asset_Indigo_Peking_Ft._Bragg_USCOI_Baranyi_InfoSec Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWfMPVwAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jf0DAP0aDEqn0xHZipj0076OIh/pMH5FmNX75UbaUpEOjCnyjwEAlPUb8nyGdgaF EERPz/qHWXQykqxSPq0KihJvvP5hFAo= =HRYu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=Attorney_General_asset_Indigo_Peking_Ft._Bragg_USCOI_Baranyi_InfoSec-- From nobody Fri Oct 27 04:14:08 2017 Return-Path: <wk@gnupg.org> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D589713F4D3 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 04:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZpjjMfTM9tTh for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 04:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2E9B13B109 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 04:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1e82aR-0004QS-Gj for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:14:03 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.84 #3 (Debian)) id 1e82UO-0004YD-LU; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:07:48 +0200 From: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org> To: Hanno =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=B6ck?= <hanno@hboeck.de> Cc: openpgp@ietf.org References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171027123826.693047e6@pc1> Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! 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Mail-Followup-To: Hanno =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=B6ck?= <hanno@hboeck.de>, openpgp@ietf.org Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:07:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20171027123826.693047e6@pc1> ("Hanno =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=B6ck=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:38:26 +0200") Message-ID: <87she44znf.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=red_noise_JPL_doctrine_Gazprom_CID_ammunition_AMW_UNSCOM_Qaddafi_swe"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/ynjm_v0rdt-yZqF4QJCEqmpZN10> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:14:07 -0000 --=red_noise_JPL_doctrine_Gazprom_CID_ammunition_AMW_UNSCOM_Qaddafi_swe Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:38, hanno@hboeck.de said: > Don't add multiple algorithms unless there isn't a very good reason for > it. Add one that is good for everything. Having a "may" algorithm only There is a good reason for adding a MAY mode: =2D We want an AEAD mode. =2D The WG seems not to like OCB for political (patent) reasons. =2D Thus the proposed solution is to require EAX but prepare for other modes. =2D OCB has been suggested as such another mode. =2D We can add it to rfc4880bis as MAY mode to give a specification in case someone will implement it anyway. Consider what will happen if we don't do this: OCB may be implemented anyway but at best an I-D extending RFC4880bis is used as specification. Or worse, there is no spec at all and everyone implements it in slightly different ways. Also: The first revisions of I-Ds for RFC6637 (ECC for OpenPGP) specified _only_ NIST curves and didn't allowed for any other curves. This has been challenged and fortunately RFC6637 allows for arbitrary curves, albeit less well specified. Without that semi-MAY we would not have been able to deploy software using modern curves. Patents on ECC are still a minefield but nevertheless everyone is moving towards ECC. > The GPG protocol is far more complex than it has to be. You mean OpenPGP. Shalom-Salam, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=red_noise_JPL_doctrine_Gazprom_CID_ammunition_AMW_UNSCOM_Qaddafi_swe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWfMThAAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jarnAPsGpU3zFOy934wB85yuvf2oUouhKqTUNXxWubGw953wbQEAlb3Fh+Mn0g1t Uoi1zOzBOwfldswVYrrLRHat03lrCg4= =7kBw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=red_noise_JPL_doctrine_Gazprom_CID_ammunition_AMW_UNSCOM_Qaddafi_swe-- From nobody Fri Oct 27 04:17:41 2017 Return-Path: <tse@ribose.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8227413F4D3 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 04:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_DF4D40AE-B596-4CA5-8E93-5B61BED7C633"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ribose.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bab59852-7585-4707-d5d7-08d51d2c50dc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Oct 2017 11:17:31.3803 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: d98a04ff-ef98-489b-b33c-13c23a2e091a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: KL1PR01MB1048 Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/I4Bg1d_-UDLaigol3DLZitCj7R4> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:17:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DF4D40AE-B596-4CA5-8E93-5B61BED7C633 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6491B4C-046F-423D-B2C1-F12B931ABFBF" --Apple-Mail=_C6491B4C-046F-423D-B2C1-F12B931ABFBF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank you Werner, I share the same opinion. One-size-fits-all is often a misnomer. I believe having an option is = usually better than not having one. _____________________________________ Ronald Tse Ribose Inc. > On Oct 27, 2017, at 7:07 PM, Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org> wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:38, hanno@hboeck.de said: >=20 >> Don't add multiple algorithms unless there isn't a very good reason = for >> it. Add one that is good for everything. Having a "may" algorithm = only >=20 > There is a good reason for adding a MAY mode: >=20 > - We want an AEAD mode. > - The WG seems not to like OCB for political (patent) reasons. > - Thus the proposed solution is to require EAX but prepare for other > modes. > - OCB has been suggested as such another mode. > - We can add it to rfc4880bis as MAY mode to give a specification in > case someone will implement it anyway. >=20 > Consider what will happen if we don't do this: OCB may be implemented > anyway but at best an I-D extending RFC4880bis is used as = specification. > Or worse, there is no spec at all and everyone implements it in = slightly > different ways. >=20 > Also: The first revisions of I-Ds for RFC6637 (ECC for OpenPGP) > specified _only_ NIST curves and didn't allowed for any other curves. > This has been challenged and fortunately RFC6637 allows for arbitrary > curves, albeit less well specified. Without that semi-MAY we would = not > have been able to deploy software using modern curves. Patents on ECC > are still a minefield but nevertheless everyone is moving towards ECC. >=20 >> The GPG protocol is far more complex than it has to be. >=20 > You mean OpenPGP. >=20 >=20 > Shalom-Salam, >=20 > Werner >=20 > -- > Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. > _______________________________________________ > openpgp mailing list > openpgp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp --Apple-Mail=_C6491B4C-046F-423D-B2C1-F12B931ABFBF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Thank= you Werner, I share the same opinion.<div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One-size-fits-all is often a misnomer. = I believe having an option is usually better than not having one.<div = class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: = auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D"">_____________________________________<br class=3D""><br = class=3D"">Ronald Tse<br class=3D"">Ribose Inc.<br class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2017, at 7:07 PM, Werner Koch <<a = href=3D"mailto:wk@gnupg.org" class=3D"">wk@gnupg.org</a>> = wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div = class=3D"">On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:38, <a href=3D"mailto:hanno@hboeck.de" = class=3D"">hanno@hboeck.de</a> said:<br class=3D""><br = class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Don't add multiple = algorithms unless there isn't a very good reason for<br class=3D"">it. = Add one that is good for everything. Having a "may" algorithm only<br = class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">There is a good reason for adding = a MAY mode:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- We want an AEAD mode.<br = class=3D"">- The WG seems not to like OCB for political (patent) = reasons.<br class=3D"">- Thus the proposed solution is to require EAX = but prepare for other<br class=3D"">  modes.<br class=3D"">- OCB = has been suggested as such another mode.<br class=3D"">- We can add it = to rfc4880bis as MAY mode to give a specification in<br class=3D""> =  case someone will implement it anyway.<br class=3D""><br = class=3D"">Consider what will happen if we don't do this: OCB may be = implemented<br class=3D"">anyway but at best an I-D extending RFC4880bis = is used as specification.<br class=3D"">Or worse, there is no spec at = all and everyone implements it in slightly<br class=3D"">different = ways.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Also: The first revisions of I-Ds for = RFC6637 (ECC for OpenPGP)<br class=3D"">specified _only_ NIST curves and = didn't allowed for any other curves.<br class=3D"">This has been = challenged and fortunately RFC6637 allows for arbitrary<br = class=3D"">curves, albeit less well specified.  Without that = semi-MAY we would not<br class=3D"">have been able to deploy software = using modern curves.  Patents on ECC<br class=3D"">are still a = minefield but nevertheless everyone is moving towards ECC.<br = class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The GPG = protocol is far more complex than it has to be.<br = class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">You mean OpenPGP.<br class=3D""><br= class=3D""><br class=3D"">Shalom-Salam,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =   Werner<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">Die = Gedanken sind frei.  Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.<br = class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br = class=3D"">openpgp mailing list<br class=3D""><a = href=3D"mailto:openpgp@ietf.org" class=3D"">openpgp@ietf.org</a><br = class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp<br = class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br = class=3D""></div></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_C6491B4C-046F-423D-B2C1-F12B931ABFBF-- --Apple-Mail=_DF4D40AE-B596-4CA5-8E93-5B61BED7C633 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 10:12:51AM +0000, Ronald Tse wrote: > 3. The misunderstanding that OpenPGP implementers will not implement OCB = due to IPR disclosures. This has nothing to do with whether implementers will implement it. This has to do with whether users will be willing to use a spec or implementation that has patent concerns associated with it. > Werner of GnuPG, has already indicated support to OCB on multiple > occasions. Our own open-source OpenPGP implementation, RNP, will > implement OCB. Anyone that uses popular cryptographic libraries like > OpenSSL and Botan can already implement this and is covered by the > licenses. GnuPG relies on libgcrypt for cryptographic functionality. On Debian, libgcrypt is linked into Xorg, which is often linked to proprietary software such as graphics drivers. Since Debian cannot avail itself of license 2 (because restrictions on military use are unacceptable) and license 1 prohibits uses with proprietary software, Debian's GnuPG is unlikely to have support for OCB unless Debian ships two separate copies of libgcrypt. For the same reason, Ubuntu is also likely to have the same policy. I've filed a bug with Debian to bring this to their attention. These are the kind of practical reasons that patented software is problematic and should not be a part of any specifications. I don't believe there's a consensus on adding this, since the groups seem at best evenly split. Previous opinions in the working group were mostly negative. I remain wholly opposed to including OCB in the OpenPGP specification, and if this specification should make it to last call with OCB included, I will oppose it on those grounds. --=20 brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US https://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only OpenPGP: https://keybase.io/bk2204 --jgskmus6tj5kniir Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEX8OngXdrJt+H9ww3v1NdgR9S9osFAlnz0GkACgkQv1NdgR9S 9osmAQ//cV79ecaBHyXRLZkStAxfqEidnf1SAiDkjRN2PzsI4ubxdw7JwT5O609C y2Cn7DinlO9if7ym7kcxxNfWl843hpH/hQ6pGPUvj1zcI0bocmFBC4hp2GbOjm3v oZWRyjB+0ph1dW6YSMzUSz+CXv8rLRB/wadmRSrWgBHlhCox7ptNn4+ROZTvVHq5 SoMKYDx0i8eXdQGmuKVEK+uMpCwQTAD5puDyzV142tUV4pKOANMWeydMtBabjSmB sRydb47IGrOoRjzm+9BcpjkUajOu1hevi42eawfIC+uFRTeYhjuj0/4Rf5OeZ0cd eO7QuN2cxfOnqbQxOkte2RpLguq+dq6k+gNTEZ3h6pJ6wKdmdJGsYNwetyw6oARm +LO+2lddQ5akzmPUv//38mf+k6w77ky3DV6BAMreWAc9Aupqulkg1qVFBb1kQyK5 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[76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:23:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2950462D29; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 04:23:52 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca 2950462D29 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251BB40D35AF; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 04:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 04:23:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> cc: "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/6DUXmzQ4jkue9JrZkmCqNDVnfWA> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:24:01 -0000 On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Ronald Tse wrote: > We all appreciate the work put into adding the AEAD packet specifications and making a real registry of it. It > should be a good thing that someone proposes to actually use the AEAD registry. There’s really no reason blocking > others from doing what they want. > > Again, no one is taking anything away from the spec with a “MAY” phrase. For protocols like IKE/IPsec or TLS, where you negotiate a cipher suite, MAY algorithms are fine. For a protocol where both parties are not online at the same time, and where one party might not know the other party's capabilities at all, a MAY algorithm can lead to non-interoperability (with human latency involved) Do OpenPGP public keys list all the encryption algorithms and signature algorithms supported by that user? If not, then there should really only be MUST algorithms (current crypto) and SHOULD algorithms (for things being sunset). If OpenPGP public keys do list these, do we have any information how current these are for most published public keys? It would have been nice to have had OCB support when it was invented. By now, the gains are pretty minimal. While there is an argument for having a "stand by" or "backup" algorithm that is universially supported, I would say chacha20/poly would be the better AEAD candidate. And I don't agree with your handwaiving about the various different licenses and use cases. The fact that there is a discussion and unclarity about this at all shows that there is an issue here. It's not that I dislike OCB. I looked at OCB a few years ago when TLS got special permission to use it, to see about defining it for IKE/IPsec as well, but the TLS draft authors made it clear they took years getting all the permissions and licensing in place, and it listed "TLS" specifically at places, so I could not re-use their work at the time for IKE/IPsec. So I decided not to pursue it for IKE/IPsec. The lesson here is, don't put arbitrary restrictions on your algorithm if you want to see widespread adoption. Paul From nobody Mon Oct 30 08:17:12 2017 Return-Path: <derek@ihtfp.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD65413FA55 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:17:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hlUHq2m1igF for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44F7613FA5B for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19ABFE2066; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-03; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from securerf.ihtfp.org (unknown [IPv6:fe80::530:248d:f760:bb62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mocana.ihtfp.org", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5518EE2054; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:16:16 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1509376576; bh=XepcppmYYd1vwoqbzO7ojshF/oDDT+LuIwB+mVfMowQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cl/DNJbB56hn1nUymKHOx+Fyf7d0jzU9kJqRJObbChGktghd2Eev4tMwiB7iuLLN1 UbZ7n9Xb2sK+4M6mWorwQz0KxOAYTzXQL/b9lB6rFVZysnMk0Hg+IlBJP/7gnMZ0Ub Kq1KEN8JupQbnqT6QHPWCb47T+RRe/YZzx+81pQU= Received: (from warlord@localhost) by securerf.ihtfp.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id v9UFGFOT015743; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:16:15 -0400 From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:16:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> (Paul Wouters's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:27:30 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: <sjmfua01xa8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/-J0wJalBA5U42WXmVTVWOC8USok> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:17:11 -0000 Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> writes: > On Wed, 25 Oct 2017, Ronald Tse wrote: > >> Since bis-02 now formally defines the AEAD packet and an AEAD >> algorithm registry, I=E2=80=99d like to bring up the topic again of >> adding OCB to the draft given its clear benefits. There have been >> previous mentions of patent concerns, but OCB is freely >> licensed for open source tools and has been included in libraries >> like OpenSSL and Botan. > > What is the advantage of adding more and more algorithms and variants? Different requirements in different use-cases. > If OCB is clearly a winner over another algorithm candidate to be added, > is the inferior other candidate removed? Not necessarily. Just because one is a "winner" does not necessarily mean the other is "inferior". Again, different use-cases have different requirements that could result in different preferred choices. > Adding algorithms is easy. Removing them is hard. That should raise the > bar for adding new ones. Historically the OpenPGP group has been relatively inviting and open to addition (non-mandatory) algorithms. I see no reason today that this decades-old practice be changed. > Paul -derek --=20 Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Mon Oct 30 08:21:45 2017 Return-Path: <derek@ihtfp.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E8513FAD1 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:21:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CeDqXnw1cbD8 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94FCC13FA9B for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA7FE2082; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-05; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from securerf.ihtfp.org (unknown [IPv6:fe80::530:248d:f760:bb62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mocana.ihtfp.org", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A42B8E2081; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:48 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1509376788; bh=at0HFO3vebCw9NPcOP/sXx+3iUOhZDdywaWRRXHDY5M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=qCSBU8wNsGXukiOMVGYrhuEiBPP1Cf5ntKx1bVxC61vV9/EcJ4NVvM0LX2MG/M7JV A99L59ojfTlq3bUc0ia2vf72sjQpEQJxmf75Um0tK+UgMegfAalJVjKJ2S9/v42jsA GI7uUqwv3b/6mK8AD8Lnn7jImDqFlDg3g6Td7Tlk= Received: (from warlord@localhost) by securerf.ihtfp.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id v9UFJf1J003393; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:41 -0400 From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> To: Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl> Cc: "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> (Rick van Rein's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:47:17 +0200") Message-ID: <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/UzG1OlEnU5BscSIR7X8R5B9h4Hk> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:21:27 -0000 Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl> writes: > Along the same lines I'm also surprised that no effort has been made to > deprecate 2.x PGP packet formats and public key formats, for instance. > We all know that such old keys don't have a reason to exist anymore, > but we're all still coding the old and new in order to be compliant to > the standards. Such a waste of time... I have files encrypted 20+ years ago (to a 20+ year old key) sitting around in storage. Are you saying that those encrypted files should not be readable anymore? And note that if your response is "but just re-encrypt them", I'll add that then I lose a lot of the original data, like original signing date etc. Moreover, AFAIK there is no tool that I can use to re-encrypt a message while keeping signature data intact. (Please correct me if I'm missing something, but even gpg does not seem to have a "re-encrypt" option). > -Rick -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Mon Oct 30 08:35:41 2017 Return-Path: <derek@ihtfp.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A001FF6E9 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6OB2KM9PpTdk for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60A6A1FF46E for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187ADE2050; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01673-03; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from securerf.ihtfp.org (unknown [IPv6:fe80::530:248d:f760:bb62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mocana.ihtfp.org", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21DEDE203F; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:28:15 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1509377295; bh=qzYoJNi+TaKvj2/bgQDxihqWJC+BaXJEumucSG3Fqj8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=nX2a3rHCzK00S25EBNukUBsHmBxLP77jnk5WozKxZoroi2zStpzDrkI3uwm8KBWBQ wyKrCqUolMpaLUq8rywPUbnavJrYlJLFwiDAIRPBndNr3v79XC6Z2xol1OJCJqL2+8 TrA8xPIH6rYMwd9nfwi6s/mUTZqFMccvY16G6QA8= Received: (from warlord@localhost) by securerf.ihtfp.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id v9UFSEOR021282; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:28:14 -0400 From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:28:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> (Paul Wouters's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2017 04:23:51 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: <sjm4lqg1wq9.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/3-qgyg6cg7D8pMe3OfbR3WZfSSM> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:35:40 -0000 Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> writes: > Do OpenPGP public keys list all the encryption algorithms and signature > algorithms supported by that user? If not, then there should really only > be MUST algorithms (current crypto) and SHOULD algorithms (for things > being sunset). If OpenPGP public keys do list these, do we have any > information how current these are for most published public keys? Yes, they do. "Preferred algorothm notations". -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Mon Oct 30 08:36:16 2017 Return-Path: <rick@openfortress.nl> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9E613FA93 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w3S294LMYISg for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lb2-smtp-cloud7.xs4all.net (lb2-smtp-cloud7.xs4all.net [194.109.24.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12F8A1394E4 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fame.vanrein.org ([IPv6:2001:980:93a5:1::7]) by smtp-cloud7.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 9C04eMfw6VNbY9C05euuYw; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:29:18 +0100 Received: by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 2A62125DAC; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:29:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: openpgp@ietf.org Received: from airhead.local (phantom.vanrein.org [83.161.146.46]) by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0F51B25DA9; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:29:13 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:29:06 +0100 From: Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl> User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.11 (Macintosh/20140602) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> CC: "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> In-Reply-To: <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bogosity: Unsure, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.520000, version=1.2.4 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFxD0z3LgvpsOCpte2ae2Io61apYjNcYvaYwAH5FUdfG35jWibNSOvZfsarXfYbwbIyiw75IbA3JkZ/lOB4uElqlmUPuAUNYshqlxksqrzL/ab2ZLJph KOSUknhMqOXsFxM+4fViUD+dCAvxSL0f4qZWxaTOhbnAZ/PNyniQ4TCzAvpq1s0QfaoEKTcA1xpEfGQsbVa137fEQ01kccecC2w= Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/QxqQPqs9XdeCk09yyGd0TK0qtQc> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:36:15 -0000 Hi Derek, >> Along the same lines I'm also surprised that no effort has been made to >> deprecate 2.x PGP packet formats and public key formats, for instance. >> We all know that such old keys don't have a reason to exist anymore, >> but we're all still coding the old and new in order to be compliant to >> the standards. Such a waste of time... > > I have files encrypted 20+ years ago (to a 20+ year old key) sitting > around in storage. Are you saying that those encrypted files should not > be readable anymore? I was thinking about signing, which was indeed an oversight. One might question if current-day crypto software should continue to support old encrypted files though, or that a fork would be wiser. The added complexity of the software is far from helpful in keeping software clear and bug free. Also, this old material may end up being treated by hardly-tested code, which is another undesirable part. Anyhow, I brought this up to agree that we should be careful what is being added, and your response is in fact confirming that. -Rick From nobody Mon Oct 30 11:01:11 2017 Return-Path: <paul@nohats.ca> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B1D98B5 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id biynXKuSSVBJ for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC21798AD for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3yQj2b3KMQzF76; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:00:55 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1509386455; bh=26SxNosYMKCagpLbxldwqolr3oZHgvArmFb8O9cIg9c=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=AkKd6yb0qXftmPwoio7edTGm3h3K4sxhfQ9c0BmuhE1MXCZ4q3d7FAvS1y0/mEn1O /Z8wKqaul3WvtCsSARtBp2RtO62zVlXwpfkE9Z314RzQ48PDWCOwgUFw36LOAaw+80 bJ4nIDyx6PnCrufnoqon4NDcIkMvCKaYTScnHKF8= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ezaqyrT7Fmn; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:00:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:00:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.252.1.42] (unknown [2.50.18.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0709F62D29; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:00:52 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca 0709F62D29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15A432) In-Reply-To: <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:00:47 +0400 Cc: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> To: Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl> Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/AZMbaGkCl1L-b657Z-yOrekTEv4> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:01:10 -0000 On Oct 30, 2017, at 19:29, Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl> wrote: >=20 > Hi Derek, >=20 >>=20 >> I have files encrypted 20+ years ago (to a 20+ year old key) sitting >> around in storage. Are you saying that those encrypted files should not >> be readable anymore? So when do we stop supporting an algorithm? When it can be brute forces in a= month? A year ? A day? > One might question if current-day crypto software should continue to > support old encrypted files though, or that a fork would be wiser. Like pgp 2.6 and pgp 5. Yes. A way to also stimulate upgrading could be to demote algorithms to decrypt/v= erify only and not allow them for creating new encrypted/signed material. As for we have been doing this for 20 years argument, I am still carrying i= dea.c and still have to manually compile it every time gpg upgrades. So the =E2= =80=9Ccurrent=E2=80=9D scheme has proven to not work well at all for me. Paul= From nobody Mon Oct 30 11:19:29 2017 Return-Path: <derek@ihtfp.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A753A04D for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NOOVR3qAbhZP for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E26113FA13 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D82E205D; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03280-01; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id C24BBE2050; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:18:51 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1509387531; bh=b9mrnTTd8QCCpCaTsElLoVCUwfcL3xEh2n7imr1qTyg=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:From:To:Cc; b=Gh26SCaT8u8YwZ9BfMkBEmXZJ1sGYOaYRlo+iboOED34dDw3Q93Qd9Yd/2+ajO6Wj ivHEyIlfv2rNfC2+A+b/vrnXF3X6k/z68+ioP19Zl6TL8DRsH+PLVa+ntAYsv7Jy3m npMppYQBosvqPRGdYpF2DVcS5fgCYF2DKhGlTVxg= Received: from 192.168.248.250 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warlord) by mail2.ihtfp.org with HTTP; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:18:51 -0400 Message-ID: <c67d205fcc8d65c48dd7f3af01e03684.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> In-Reply-To: <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:18:51 -0400 From: "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com> To: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: "Rick van Rein" <rick@openfortress.nl>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org>, "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22-14.fc20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/Jsty6ugPp8d2e6f9fU1axq_n0Ck> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:19:27 -0000 On Mon, October 30, 2017 2:00 pm, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Oct 30, 2017, at 19:29, Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl> wrote: >> >> Hi Derek, >> >>> >>> I have files encrypted 20+ years ago (to a 20+ year old key) sitting >>> around in storage. Are you saying that those encrypted files should >>> not >>> be readable anymore? > > So when do we stop supporting an algorithm? When it can be brute forces in > a month? A year ? A day? That's a good question, but considering none of it applies to pretty much any method we've supported (except, perhaps, MD5) it's a bit moot. >> One might question if current-day crypto software should continue to >> support old encrypted files though, or that a fork would be wiser. > > Like pgp 2.6 and pgp 5. Yes. > > A way to also stimulate upgrading could be to demote algorithms to > decrypt/verify only and not allow them for creating new encrypted/signed > material. We've already done that. It "works" (to some degree) to get people to upgrade. > As for we have been doing this for 20 years argument, I am still carrying > idea.c and still have to manually compile it every time gpg upgrades. So > the “current” scheme has proven to not work well at all for me. Honestly, AFAIK there has never been a security issue with IDEA; just patent/licensing. At this point I think all those issues are gone, too, so honestly there's little reason not to include it natively. But the real point is that there are so few methods that people want to support *IN THE PROTOCOL* that there is little reason, IMNSHO, to prevent them from doing so in a standard way. Remember, just because the protocol supports a method does not mean implementations will. But if the protocol does NOT support some methods it might prevent some users from using the protocol. Hence, if we want to encourage adoption (even if it's in a closed environment) we should encourage method adoption. Again, it's not that expensive to do so on our part. > Paul -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Mon Oct 30 12:23:06 2017 Return-Path: <paul@nohats.ca> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDE013F7B1 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KgfJPiH6kvM4 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70C29138D8F for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3yQksF65V6zF7B; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:22:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1509391377; bh=/djk3mGz3OayVcixXWrkBMm8dLfld1jZRtXCVYPav7s=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=CRvwXqOnUMiJt+SL8odJ33pC0oCjIeUJ8k7p8RjGiAF8hq1LdWkRlTTyhPGdBSiZY h9OgxW6glxFkKC19xAtRzzS0M0DMxzFHKr/1j2iuPrlArYnkkfv3J1YUoV/g1+3Rl1 9FAPExQjP7TbJ0E64/0j8woA6NjaWdRioLQHs8WE= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iEGECBkpfCIv; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:22:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:22:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A921762D29; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:22:55 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca A921762D29 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 995AF40D35AF; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:22:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> To: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> cc: Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <c67d205fcc8d65c48dd7f3af01e03684.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301516360.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> <c67d205fcc8d65c48dd7f3af01e03684.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/7QJB2SJOLatJ9clLl4exkCI49_M> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:23:05 -0000 On Mon, 30 Oct 2017, Derek Atkins wrote: >> As for we have been doing this for 20 years argument, I am still carrying >> idea.c and still have to manually compile it every time gpg upgrades. So >> the “current” scheme has proven to not work well at all for me. > > Honestly, AFAIK there has never been a security issue with IDEA; just > patent/licensing. At this point I think all those issues are gone, too, > so honestly there's little reason not to include it natively. It was an example of how some people having IDEA and other not having it causes interop issues to the point that I need to manually hack my implementation to talk to those people. That's something you want to avoid more then giving people a list of 6 sexy algorithms to choose from. > But the real point is that there are so few methods that people want to > support *IN THE PROTOCOL* that there is little reason, IMNSHO, to prevent > them from doing so in a standard way. I don't understand that sentence. > Remember, just because the protocol supports a method does not mean > implementations will. If you add things to the protocol that the vast majority will not implement, you have lost already and that added thing becomes useless. > But if the protocol does NOT support some methods > it might prevent some users from using the protocol. Which is a good thing? Do you think most users can make a meaningful decision about which algorithms to trust or not and for how long? The reason for a lot variance with TLS or IKE/IPsec with protocols is that performance does matter. For openpgp, performance hardly matters. You're not doing 1Gbps or running on an IoT device with 32kb RAM or require less then 25ms latency. Paul From nobody Mon Oct 30 12:52:29 2017 Return-Path: <derek@ihtfp.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D53113F65D for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:52:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RV9DsV_uOncm for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 262EF13FAFF for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33A2E2047; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04007-03; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id 24298E2064; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:51:41 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1509393101; bh=XTG2x5FoCVZGiZMvgEzowMslU9UYsTHKkcCDUZ+8h8A=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:From:To:Cc; b=PAN1rZ34NrQl8FHvqh5DOa5QBIjm2B9qBlQM59pe0J8bJ6nZopY/it9Lg4L6Am1A+ 3ykLLb8dS7pjZZ1XCopACbeRU1xqHsKto+X0+3eeQIeMQ5r7qhnDkVSK8PLyArcT8u zrzp0YPDtbRoAcpvlDfpsbhWdL2rBkCMLzpz/Z2U= Received: from 192.168.248.250 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warlord) by mail2.ihtfp.org with HTTP; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:51:41 -0400 Message-ID: <704d117e3b4f3b093d2846d8433ebbf2.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301516360.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> <c67d205fcc8d65c48dd7f3af01e03684.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301516360.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:51:41 -0400 From: "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com> To: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: "Rick van Rein" <rick@openfortress.nl>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22-14.fc20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/jnwCIqqrNoi9a9MVRaU7alUIcBE> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:52:27 -0000 Paul, On Mon, October 30, 2017 3:22 pm, Paul Wouters wrote: > It was an example of how some people having IDEA and other not having it > causes interop issues to the point that I need to manually hack my > implementation to talk to those people. Yes, and IMHO, IDEA should get added back in. In this day and age there is zero reason to prohibit it. > That's something you want to > avoid more then giving people a list of 6 sexy algorithms to choose > from. Note that it's not "PEOPLE" who are choosing them, per se. It's the implementers, who one would think would have a better idea of what to implement and why. >> But the real point is that there are so few methods that people want to >> support *IN THE PROTOCOL* that there is little reason, IMNSHO, to >> prevent >> them from doing so in a standard way. > > I don't understand that sentence. Okay, let me try again. How many public key methods are there? Not many. How many ciphers are there? Again, not many. Similarly, how many AEAD methods are there? Again... not many. Even moreso, there are even fewer methods people are proposing to include in the OpenPGP protocol than the limited number of methods that are out there. There are SO FEW methods that, indeed, if even one implementer wants to do it in a standard way we should let them. Maybe that implementer is doing something privately, but still wants to do it in a standard way. We should let them. Maybe they feel that it'll be years before someone else is interested, but they want to ensure their code written today will work down the road. We should let them. In other words, we should be accepting in relinquishing protocol numbers. >> Remember, just because the protocol supports a method does not mean >> implementations will. > > If you add things to the protocol that the vast majority will not > implement, you have lost already and that added thing becomes useless. You've clearly never worked on (or in) a private enclave. The IETF should not be in the position to say that private enclaves MAY NOT exist. But you seem to be implying that by your stance. Maybe the implementer who wants to add OCB doesn't care if your implementation can read it, because your implementation is very unlikely to ever see an OCB message. Why do you want to say that they may not do that (which is what you're saying by implying that your implementation must support every feature and that the protocol may not support features that your implementation does not support). >> But if the protocol does NOT support some methods >> it might prevent some users from using the protocol. > > Which is a good thing? No. It's not. We should encourage people to use OpenPGP. It's a great protocol, and anything we do that prohibits adoption is a bad thing. > Do you think most users can make a meaningful > decision about which algorithms to trust or not and for how long? That's irrelevant to this discussion. > The reason for a lot variance with TLS or IKE/IPsec with protocols is > that performance does matter. For openpgp, performance hardly matters. > You're not doing 1Gbps or running on an IoT device with 32kb RAM or > require less then 25ms latency. I'm afraid you're wrong here. I *AM* running OpenPGP on an IoT device, and in fact that IoT device has less than 32kB RAM. (I'm assuming you meant 32kB, and not 32kb == 4KB, which is exactly how much RAM my device has). I'm running OpenPGP specifically because the data formats are smaller and easier to generate/parse than X.509, so I *CAN* actually run it in an IoT device. Of course I'm extremely limited in what methods I support, but I happen to control both ends of the communication so I can work in an enclave and control the implementation. This is exactly why we should be open in what we accept. In my case, I don't care if your implementation does not support my methods, but I want to ensure that I can implement my methods in a standard way such that it wont interfere with you (and you wont interfere with me). Moreso, in a few years, my messages might escape my enclave, which is yet another reason I'd like to do it in a standard way. (And yes, I've moved well beyond OCB in this discussion). > Paul -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Mon Oct 30 13:29:28 2017 Return-Path: <paul@nohats.ca> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF8213FAF2 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTRkkL4wzkHQ for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 172CD13FB24 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3yQmKs5C8szF7N; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:29:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1509395361; bh=gtQ3yoNHk3Lt55455egh2I1Vk5q4+R5YDrF7Zv4r1gU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=fRSfLudc6XG0xkU2v7wqxTyRCT5qDUMoI9aaa2ne0oeJ0etTUNAopskWZKEwh03X4 HeywQnEpgUASOtYma+01Z9Ii9Lv3VYX0DEgOlLBdklzcwlZ+T7u08CgeIB6jAftWVG 5Ad8khZV3NzGPjFyTlFOEDZwXSSaRQxLyrWFvn18= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnIFs0TZIj-B; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:29:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:29:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0FCA62D29; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:29:17 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca B0FCA62D29 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D40440D35AF; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:29:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> To: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> cc: Rick van Rein <rick@openfortress.nl>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <704d117e3b4f3b093d2846d8433ebbf2.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301606430.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> <c67d205fcc8d65c48dd7f3af01e03684.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301516360.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> <704d117e3b4f3b093d2846d8433ebbf2.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/_dfMqG6LZaG-wcZGSnvlb3kUaxM> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:29:27 -0000 On Mon, 30 Oct 2017, Derek Atkins wrote: > On Mon, October 30, 2017 3:22 pm, Paul Wouters wrote: > >> It was an example of how some people having IDEA and other not having it >> causes interop issues to the point that I need to manually hack my >> implementation to talk to those people. > > Yes, and IMHO, IDEA should get added back in. In this day and age there > is zero reason to prohibit it. You miss my point. Implementors made decisions and as a result, non-expert endusers ended up not being able to send each other encrypted email. I am sayong don't repeat that mistake. > Note that it's not "PEOPLE" who are choosing them, per se. It's the > implementers, who one would think would have a better idea of what to > implement and why. That still does not help much against someone using a new algorithm and someone else using old software that does not have that algorithm. How long does it take for any now added algorithm to be commonly supported? By paranoid people who dont want to upgrade their offline systems? :) > Maybe that implementer is doing something privately, but still wants to do > it in a standard way. We should let them. That's what private number ranges are for. > Maybe the implementer who wants to add OCB doesn't care if your > implementation can read it, because your implementation is very unlikely > to ever see an OCB message. Why do you want to say that they may not do > that (which is what you're saying by implying that your implementation > must support every feature and that the protocol may not support features > that your implementation does not support). As long as you can detect the support when you have the public key, that's probably okay. But that's still a weak argument to allow vanity algorithms, as it will still increase the chance that multiple parties don't share those in their implementation. And how does this work when my phone supports some algorithms, and my laptop supports other. How do I announce that in my public key? It looks like you'd be forced to only publish the shared algorithms. I wouldn't even know how to announce that. >>> But if the protocol does NOT support some methods >>> it might prevent some users from using the protocol. >> >> Which is a good thing? > > No. It's not. We should encourage people to use OpenPGP. It's a great > protocol, and anything we do that prohibits adoption is a bad thing. Swiss army knives are great tools. Raise your hand if you never cut yourself with one. > I'm running OpenPGP specifically because the data formats are smaller and > easier to generate/parse than X.509, so I *CAN* actually run it in an IoT > device. Of course I'm extremely limited in what methods I support, but I > happen to control both ends of the communication so I can work in an > enclave and control the implementation. > > This is exactly why we should be open in what we accept. In my case, I > don't care if your implementation does not support my methods, but I want > to ensure that I can implement my methods in a standard way such that it > wont interfere with you (and you wont interfere with me). Ok, well if all of that needs to be supported I guess we will be cursed with an amount of failure as the price to pay for the freedom to shoehorn openpgp on everything. I still think it is wise to try and limit the number of algorithms with similar cryptographic and architectural properties. Paul From nobody Mon Oct 30 14:10:17 2017 Return-Path: <derek@ihtfp.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE0113FB7F for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cRgJ99HYxWLz for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3285B13FB99 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0260DE2035; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06168-03; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id D4394E2049; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:09:13 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1509397753; bh=6XWEFHXSzTRfMjo7nZRwPijUiPFDu/AqldWy3sbxnQA=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:From:To:Cc; b=Us5U7f7e0GazymCmwRmAoeh2i218iBGPFxrNBPOHHLwSbd8HB51+RpZqB3E2R43mm RwZN5frq6KJDLZTKVyp2tTkRyAak0KOqdi8zA/HbtzpAUSCbFbEHyX7mciWtMZ8Hvb wU/qXXns9hqgezJT6+Zo9+yFvE9OYBPs1XqvVLT4= Received: from 192.168.248.250 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warlord) by mail2.ihtfp.org with HTTP; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:09:13 -0400 Message-ID: <f33b464975d7f08fb74999de94e4348c.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301606430.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710251219190.18006@bofh.nohats.ca> <59F0C015.2050303@openfortress.nl> <sjmbmko1x4i.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <59F74542.5080409@openfortress.nl> <37D92E03-5071-42AC-B057-AA3C18B0762A@nohats.ca> <c67d205fcc8d65c48dd7f3af01e03684.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301516360.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> <704d117e3b4f3b093d2846d8433ebbf2.squirrel@mail2.ihtfp.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710301606430.31082@bofh.nohats.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:09:13 -0400 From: "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com> To: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: "Rick van Rein" <rick@openfortress.nl>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22-14.fc20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/nkmG8oovdZjB3rXh9WBWrjBuVo8> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:10:15 -0000 On Mon, October 30, 2017 4:29 pm, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Mon, 30 Oct 2017, Derek Atkins wrote: > >> On Mon, October 30, 2017 3:22 pm, Paul Wouters wrote: >> >>> It was an example of how some people having IDEA and other not having >>> it >>> causes interop issues to the point that I need to manually hack my >>> implementation to talk to those people. >> >> Yes, and IMHO, IDEA should get added back in. In this day and age there >> is zero reason to prohibit it. > > You miss my point. Implementors made decisions and as a result, non-expert > endusers ended up not being able to send each other encrypted email. I > am sayong don't repeat that mistake. And you're saying the mistake is that IDEA was included in the first place? Or that IDEA was removed? Or...??? >> Note that it's not "PEOPLE" who are choosing them, per se. It's the >> implementers, who one would think would have a better idea of what to >> implement and why. > > That still does not help much against someone using a new algorithm and > someone else using old software that does not have that algorithm. Sure. Just like you're not going to be able to run Linux on an Apple ][ > How long does it take for any now added algorithm to be commonly > supported? By paranoid people who dont want to upgrade their offline > systems? :) Probably a few years at least, which is a good reason to get it into the spec NOW for the hope that in 3-5 years it'll be more widely deployed. >> Maybe that implementer is doing something privately, but still wants to >> do >> it in a standard way. We should let them. > > That's what private number ranges are for. That's not "in a standard way". It also only works for experimentation. If you ever expect to deploy it you should NOT use a private number range, because MY private numbers and YOUR private numbers may conflict. >> Maybe the implementer who wants to add OCB doesn't care if your >> implementation can read it, because your implementation is very unlikely >> to ever see an OCB message. Why do you want to say that they may not do >> that (which is what you're saying by implying that your implementation >> must support every feature and that the protocol may not support >> features >> that your implementation does not support). > > As long as you can detect the support when you have the public key, that's > probably okay. You can. The self-signature on a key encodes that. > But that's still a weak argument to allow vanity > algorithms, as it will still increase the chance that multiple parties > don't share those in their implementation. Perhaps, but that's a different argument and unrelated to whether the spec should specify a code point. You seem to be arguing that if it's not 100% in use everywhere then we shouldn't allocate a code point. I'm suggesting that code points are relatively cheap and should be open to most all comers with reasonable requests. > And how does this work when my phone supports some algorithms, and my > laptop supports other. How do I announce that in my public key? It > looks like you'd be forced to only publish the shared algorithms. I > wouldn't even know how to announce that. How are you sharing your keypairs across your devices? >>>> But if the protocol does NOT support some methods >>>> it might prevent some users from using the protocol. >>> >>> Which is a good thing? >> >> No. It's not. We should encourage people to use OpenPGP. It's a great >> protocol, and anything we do that prohibits adoption is a bad thing. > > Swiss army knives are great tools. Raise your hand if you never cut > yourself with one. * Raises his hand * You're right, they are great tools, and they are great because they include so many tools, even tools that not everyone needs. And even better, there are different models of swiss army knifes (SAK) that include different sets of tools. So my knife probably has a different set than yours. And that's a good thing. If every SAK contained the same set of tools then it would probably be less useful. When I was a kid I used the magnifying glass all the time, but never the saw. Later on I found uses for the saw, but kind of lost a use case for the magnifying glass. >> I'm running OpenPGP specifically because the data formats are smaller >> and >> easier to generate/parse than X.509, so I *CAN* actually run it in an >> IoT >> device. Of course I'm extremely limited in what methods I support, but >> I >> happen to control both ends of the communication so I can work in an >> enclave and control the implementation. >> >> This is exactly why we should be open in what we accept. In my case, I >> don't care if your implementation does not support my methods, but I >> want >> to ensure that I can implement my methods in a standard way such that it >> wont interfere with you (and you wont interfere with me). > > Ok, well if all of that needs to be supported I guess we will be cursed > with an amount of failure as the price to pay for the freedom to > shoehorn openpgp on everything. I still think it is wise to try and > limit the number of algorithms with similar cryptographic and > architectural properties. I think you're continually conflating the OpenPGP Specification / Protocol with various implementations. We already have the case that different implementations include different crypto methods. In fact we've lived with that case for the past two decades and the world has not ended. I'm saying that the SPEC should allow the freedom. I also feel it's fine if GPG chooses not to implement something that I want in my implementation (or, vice versa). I also feel it's fine if you choose even different. This is exactly the purpose of MUST, SHOULD, and MAY in the spec. You KNOW that a compliant implementation will overlap in the MUST methods. > Paul -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Mon Oct 30 16:58:26 2017 Return-Path: <tse@ribose.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C8613FC76 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ribose.onmicrosoft.com 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<1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:29:52 +0000 Message-ID: <CAAS2fgSfY5YqT2ExhtY6MrEJxNWMN77rJTtsO1r6aixOAJexFw@mail.gmail.com> To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> Cc: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/iiqEYCAdn5Ry7rPErRCMR659SOY> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:29:57 -0000 On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote: > For protocols like IKE/IPsec or TLS, where you negotiate a cipher suite, > MAY algorithms are fine. > > For a protocol where both parties are not online at the same time, and > where one party might not know the other party's capabilities at all, > a MAY algorithm can lead to non-interoperability (with human latency > involved) This is a great argument but it does not apply here: A PGP public key lists the suites that it supports. The only way you get an incompatibility is if the far end is OCB-only and you can't support it and that failure is "realtime" not delayed. > It would have been nice to have had OCB support when it was invented. > By now, the gains are pretty minimal. While there is an argument for IIRC most or all of the popular OCB alternatives are CTR based and highly brittle to nonce reuse. SIV mode is the only currently standardized-in-any-way AEAD mode that I'm aware of that has some robustness to nonce reuse. Not that IV reuse should be a major risk factor for OpenPGP-- but I think we've all learned that brittle constructions tend to result in unwelcome surprises, that line if thinking is why AEAD modes exists in the first place. >The fact that there is a discussion and unclarity > about this at all shows that there is an issue here. Never underestimate people's ability to have a debate. > The lesson here is, don't put arbitrary restrictions on your algorithm if > you want to see widespread adoption. This seems rather moralistic rather than a practical consideration. IETF protocols routinely register encodings and codepoints for highly restricted techniques: OCB in OpenPGP would only get used when there is mutual support on both ends. I don't think the laudable effort of avoiding restricted techniques as mandatory in standardized protocols is aided by a total war on them that covers optional use of less restrictively licensed things. The standards process question should primarily be will it get use if it exists? If not, don't bother. The licensing of OCB appears to be very permissive for more than a few very broad classes (including Free Software implementations). Input from implementers on if they'd implement it if specified should be the primary metric. Also, if it gets used will it enhance or harm security (seems more like the former in this case)? I don't believe there is any 1:1 replacement for it currently, if there were that would be a consideration too. One could make an argument that the grab-bag-choose-your-own-adventure of many cryptographic options is a bad design, but I think the ship has already sailed on that one in OpenPGP. :) From nobody Tue Oct 31 00:03:55 2017 Return-Path: <paul@nohats.ca> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FE313FDD4 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uD2oDrYLDk5G for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7CE31394F1 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3yR2Pv4Zhqz35H; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:03:47 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1509433427; bh=rKO8l8AGZu/qpncAbpVqdOnmDYEiV6CustkF1aknqhg=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=EpSzU/QTX7AWKBhqb+QPsze7NkJWj6tsNUZOlbxtE5KsVPuXRdba1dOH7dNBhyAvw khgCc6YUw97bOcIKExPqki0wTCZwjkEirYmq05gzIaVI/VL1b9VL22iDPGhWJVoXFK 82KtNuHm0Ai9H6fmmtsWhYsqf6RM+2o1izB4++iY= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0EAKZgItZbA0; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:03:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:03:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 046B862D29; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:03:43 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca 046B862D29 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E0A40D35AF; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:03:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> To: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> cc: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgSfY5YqT2ExhtY6MrEJxNWMN77rJTtsO1r6aixOAJexFw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710310254050.8644@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> <CAAS2fgSfY5YqT2ExhtY6MrEJxNWMN77rJTtsO1r6aixOAJexFw@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/7sPRwfH18rKmsAx9IyaQNOU6g5w> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 07:03:53 -0000 On Tue, 31 Oct 2017, Gregory Maxwell wrote: As the signaling of support for algorithms is better then I realised, I'll let myself be convinced that adding a new algorithm isn't too bad. While I still think there is an increased risk of non-interoperability or non-adoption, I guess it is not a deal breaker for new algorithms. >> The lesson here is, don't put arbitrary restrictions on your algorithm if >> you want to see widespread adoption. > > This seems rather moralistic rather than a practical consideration. > > IETF protocols routinely register encodings and codepoints for highly > restricted techniques: OCB in OpenPGP would only get used when there > is mutual support on both ends. > > I don't think the laudable effort of avoiding restricted techniques as > mandatory in standardized protocols is aided by a total war on them > that covers optional use of less restrictively licensed things. > > The standards process question should primarily be will it get use if > it exists? If not, don't bother. The licensing of OCB appears to be > very permissive for more than a few very broad classes (including Free > Software implementations). Input from implementers on if they'd > implement it if specified should be the primary metric. This is still a potential issue. As long as the algorithm has restrictions on it that are discriminatory, their inclusion in a free software library poses a risk for those companies shipping the software that have money in the bank to attract lawsuits. I'm worried about OCB support in openssl and/or other libraries as part of the OS, because when a vendor's customers will use it for some "unauthorised use", the vendor might get involved in a lawsuit. I'm also confused about these restrictions. If opensource is allowed to use it, anyone could use openssl under the newly minted (still minting?) license to link against properietary code, meaning that there are in practise, no restrictions left. So why doesn't Rogaway just release an IPR statement to the IETF allowing its free and unrestrictive use? Rich, do you know anything about the OCB code in openssl and how the relicensing of openssl would mean the OCB code can remain or has to go? Paul From nobody Tue Oct 31 01:10:35 2017 Return-Path: <tse@ribose.com> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C4B13F69A for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 01:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ribose.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id na6nxiSpW278 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 01:10:31 -0700 (PDT) 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(EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca A16C762D29 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECE940D35AF; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:19:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> cc: "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <0A4C446D-AACC-4B4E-928A-88C653260A3C@ribose.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710310516530.12676@bofh.nohats.ca> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> <CAAS2fgSfY5YqT2ExhtY6MrEJxNWMN77rJTtsO1r6aixOAJexFw@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710310254050.8644@bofh.nohats.ca> <0A4C446D-AACC-4B4E-928A-88C653260A3C@ribose.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/5dU4ekechNRFcF4Nrfz58Ot1j48> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:19:15 -0000 On Tue, 31 Oct 2017, Ronald Tse wrote: > I’m sure Rich could shine more light on this, but OpenSSL has already received a specific OCB license from Prof. Rogaway that allows users of OpenSSL to use OCB freely, including when > linked against proprietary code (It’s on the OpenSSL website). Note that the OpenSSL license is more broad than License 1 and 2 on the OCB FAQ page. > As mentioned, Prof. Rogaway is willing to file an IPR statement allowing the use of OCB for all OpenPGP implementations, so I think the patent issue can probably be put to rest here. The recent I'm asking is because openssl is being relicensed and I don't know how this affects things. As for getting a license for openpgp (and TLS), putting support in a general library where it can be used for other things is still an issue that needs to be looked at by lawyers, not engineers. And since that in itself will impact whether OCB would be made available in generic distributions, I don't think this issue can be put to rest yet. 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Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:18:44 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2dvn7w20cw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:18:44 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:18:43 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:18:43 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com> To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> CC: "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis Thread-Index: AQHTTXH5w45VH0tw2ky7nHf16p0Us6L1We9kgABLVgCAAXdPgIAARqrygABFAoCAABg1gIAA8IkAgAB9PACAAAYbgIAEVBgAgABMg4CAABKjgIAAEzKAgABC8YA= Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:18:42 +0000 Message-ID: <F27AAF10-75DB-4DF6-9871-E35A592DF97D@akamai.com> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <06D50F48-26BD-4729-8071-576DA8E226AA@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710280403490.7356@bofh.nohats.ca> <CAAS2fgSfY5YqT2ExhtY6MrEJxNWMN77rJTtsO1r6aixOAJexFw@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710310254050.8644@bofh.nohats.ca> <0A4C446D-AACC-4B4E-928A-88C653260A3C@ribose.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710310516530.12676@bofh.nohats.ca> In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1710310516530.12676@bofh.nohats.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.44.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <DC2F4F0DD8B0F54BAC76C7BB4EF083EF@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-31_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710310173 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-31_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710310172 Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/oz73XeAnOJG7Op65Io6eCmLKyc0> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:18:59 -0000 DQrinqIgICAgIFRoZSByZWNlbnQgSSdtIGFza2luZyBpcyBiZWNhdXNlIG9wZW5zc2wgaXMgYmVp bmcgcmVsaWNlbnNlZCBhbmQgSSBkb24ndA0KICAgIGtub3cgaG93IHRoaXMgYWZmZWN0cyB0aGlu Z3MuDQogICAgDQpCYXNlZCBvbiBvdXIgY291bnNlbCwgdGhlIHBsYW5uZWQgY2hhbmdlIHRvIEFw YWNoZTIgbGljZW5zZSB3aWxsIG5vdCBjaGFuZ2UgYW55IHBhdGVudCBncmFudHMgd2UgaGF2ZSBi ZWVuIGdpdmVuLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Oct 31 08:49:30 2017 Return-Path: <wk@gnupg.org> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E54E13F76E for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:44:29 +0100 From: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org> To: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net> Cc: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> Organisation: The GnuPG Project X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>, Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp\@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:44:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> (brian m. carlson's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:33:46 +0000") Message-ID: <87o9onz5ig.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=UFO_red_noise_JFK_high_security_kilderkin_ANZUS_credit_card_Sundevil"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/0SBl_i_bAeTVB1twtMGhUdGgk9Y> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:49:28 -0000 --=UFO_red_noise_JFK_high_security_kilderkin_ANZUS_credit_card_Sundevil Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <offtopic> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 02:33, sandals@crustytoothpaste.net said: > GnuPG relies on libgcrypt for cryptographic functionality. On Debian, > libgcrypt is linked into Xorg, which is often linked to proprietary > software such as graphics drivers. Since Debian cannot avail itself of There are no proprietary drivers in Debian. Further it is not instantly possible to decide what makes up a derivative work, "linking" would be just one data point but even that term "linking" is not well defined. > license 1 prohibits uses with proprietary software, Debian's GnuPG is > unlikely to have support for OCB unless Debian ships two separate copies GnuPG already uses OCB for the private key storage format and will protect keys using this format if you use --enable-extended-key-format. Eventually this will be the default key storage format for private keys. </>=20 > I remain wholly opposed to including OCB in the OpenPGP specification, Do you prefer that we put a "2 - reserved for OCB" into the specs and have an I-D to specify the oue of OCB in OpenPGP? This would make the life for implementors and auditors harder. Shalom-Salam, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=UFO_red_noise_JFK_high_security_kilderkin_ANZUS_credit_card_Sundevil Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTX/8BjtAoilLlm20f/gK6dHew1jQUCWfiaVwAKCRD/gK6dHew1 jWvsAQC5uS28cIJyYtWNY8YNTv8SlOhflNkOughevVv+mnBNRwD+IOXXWPvNYr6e rFW+Rfufvk5efXk9olyZGo6d2HxMUwM= =k+NL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=UFO_red_noise_JFK_high_security_kilderkin_ANZUS_credit_card_Sundevil-- From nobody Tue Oct 31 17:27:08 2017 Return-Path: <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net> X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812A113F828 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:Content-Type:Content-Disposition: In-Reply-To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Date:To:CC:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:Content-Disposition; b=i5Jjp/yaal5+H8t1V+xIVBohx7xA8qsKJvBm0yn9+C2Av7Wo526Bl9o3Ra7EAm3vF AgqMxjWW0hG1dcs8d0NuaSNWO/2s5fGR53osOvrHqlmoR5Wgj1tCqMGSUTMPuF4W/d 18hSKliDeJgfrkUvgnOwItYbYq4vcc3BqXPChVbi/Ya5nlEIF/oYrc/hjGP2/yf0m8 VyacctHNiYKMUI/jMPFf4vJ9sfKl70hOZ6I5kksG6A+y6JFhi7RdV2DSfSNitUnLfU JnbX0tHC9Xb16OVc2Gn2sJTbZCMIlT8YPnH+INP9VLAVrEYPrUyx1QbZDCim5bhYYG toFFo1JMZVNxMObeojEbbhMPnnFKcitBLdgR4pNMFEhCO8IlRDlabylgPDmrPxLX7b PUXl7N7yu7KhBPBiEX8IJZMAOmXlPoL0SxqaIfwbMt5ua3l2f+bJrZYfg2cmI9Bkdg q79UuS46xFRM4kOle3lVAvTmyGBTBxrFTwsoea87RI32SeA1l7k Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:26:28 +0000 From: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net> To: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org> Message-ID: <20171101002627.re4cgtirwoijyg53@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> References: <D0505748-E376-4CF9-8906-9AD77838FB23@ribose.com> <1508981649515.71466@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <07C9EFDF-C8C2-4433-A9F9-DC3D7AFD5499@ribose.com> <6AC83857-62D9-45DF-9DAE-928CF0E45A96@nohats.ca> <87she556tv.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <1509093954061.51049@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36023233-856C-4A6D-BAF9-28037B4DA0F7@ribose.com> <20171028003345.6y5igwx5cuxfxlkm@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> <87o9onz5ig.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uyeemil6yqati5io" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87o9onz5ig.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> X-Machine: Running on genre using GNU/Linux on x86_64 (Linux kernel 4.13.0-1-amd64) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 127.0.1.1 Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/uYstKt7KzE6kM1CUGrT23NafLOQ> Subject: Re: [openpgp] Proposal to include AEAD OCB mode to 4880bis X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/> List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 00:27:07 -0000 --uyeemil6yqati5io Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 04:44:23PM +0100, Werner Koch wrote: > > I remain wholly opposed to including OCB in the OpenPGP specification, >=20 > Do you prefer that we put a "2 - reserved for OCB" into the specs and > have an I-D to specify the oue of OCB in OpenPGP? This would make the > life for implementors and auditors harder. Yes, I would much prefer that we let OCB happen in a separate draft. Then all the patent problems occur in a separate specification that doesn't affect the core OpenPGP. --=20 brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US https://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only OpenPGP: https://keybase.io/bk2204 --uyeemil6yqati5io Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEX8OngXdrJt+H9ww3v1NdgR9S9osFAln5FLMACgkQv1NdgR9S 9ovEThAAypRw5iCj2Qbhz+9gMx+vq5HW+e1sjz0zJ8t3kc6iEFHzVScCnyxN8jCe DKsBonTdpmpYN/EnrM/fwwBe1zxV1IWHCikG/mLpVjjMtUzfZL2SJUTyjhGjYSHK 0bmpxtQLSM7tSrJOjdA2A0wangfkVSzOnqjIFBMAPktOVBFnE/9sY+8+jrB2xlg+ /EwDYpJmkeWyNIieoWldvLruy0k6woSMNueGyY3M0JLfxibwD7qVP6/j4hP17Joa EjUNoQwn4KyHegBSESBN6BUScBd2/04wzpbJOerES4X5yK1yj0+uxrOcxfDcJ1Ql HMVFJysApSIBPGbAX9zHx2JUK8kjrjR83LMKHB8/zmcfx0IexldM1NU/t0Wxmbq7 1KORvVzu7HHkPyZi26o2b7rwEhauLlN6JdCPg19CQA3yDX7kBpHux8XzVMAAXPpR ybqRz+zi4zPMdWvO6XflLDunGve6+1wtl1vq5NXKGiL/dn3ttutzfxqBZ6uOI6ke BPO0mGNq0DWDuApokGyEiL9mqA42mqjnYzvtFRyFetGGXmtVNNC4U4lmnL0iRRi0 x1GUPpUOKbxpigRmkQ7vr/jTMblhIhzscxH01gZkyOXaD4Ynq99lk8YTFPpqgo3x oEb20vuJ/xgicRCQv95OsUdIOZDbGcg4QUz3ZTpcV9V/ChDn47E= =mwCd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uyeemil6yqati5io--