From nobody Thu Sep 1 06:54:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D5012DAE3 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2016 06:54:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lXasbkikrj0k for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2016 06:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E9F912DB72 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2016 06:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-0618b980000009bd-83-57c82cf9711f Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.30]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id BB.CF.02493.9FC28C75; Thu, 1 Sep 2016 15:28:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 1 Sep 2016 15:28:24 +0200 To: Stefan Holmer , Varun Singh References: From: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 15:28:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7nO5PnRPhBhsPKlhcuniWyaLr4Clm i68T97M5MHvMOdnP7LFkyU8mj9/7FrEFMEdx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZby8e4ylYIdIxaGT6Q2M ywW6GDk5JARMJFYv3crSxcjFISSwnlFizuEfbBDOMkaJ1bdWMIJUCQvYSExbfYG5i5GDQ0TA XeLufy2Ims3MEpuO/GEBqWEW0JQ49PkxG4jNJmAhcfNHI5jNK2AvcfJKExNIL4uAisTpmzkg pqhAjMT6vgSICkGJkzOfgE3hFAiUaD/2lxWkhBmo88HWMojh8hLNW2czg9hCAtoSDU0drBMY BWYh6Z6F0DELSccCRuZVjKLFqcXFuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWbGIEhenDLb6sdjAefOx5i FOBgVOLhVZA+Hi7EmlhWXJl7iFGCg1lJhDdJ+0S4EG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYlcV7/ l4rhQgLpiSWp2ampBalFMFkmDk6pBkY3VbPfbH18UnO8Nv+0qeno+zWX4W2T1rQnk1e2ey+O ajeJVDluGbif0d1Lb+Kk1XXZzy9czMy7K+D9Ru7WU4lr4kk5v3Z9UpfL23Yz2Sdei9kmV1E1 djP/ORtxCb8XFVb6725ZT1n4fb7o9QVLd+jPndBm9uGUcJD96d3vt23b+j4i8IZ8vr4SS3FG oqEWc1FxIgCUB2ygTQIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "payload@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [payload] FLEXFEC: retransmissions optimization X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:54:10 -0000 Den 2016-08-23 kl. 13:48, skrev Stefan Holmer: > > > On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 7:42 PM Varun Singh > wrote: > > Hi Stefan, > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Stefan Holmer > wrote: > > I agree that we should have the sequence numbers in the flex fec > header, but > > timestamps I don't see why we need there. RFC 4588 does the same > > optimization without running into problems, right? From my perspective RFC4588 do run into some issues due to having the RTP timestamp not be anything close to representing transport emission time. Sure, there are quite many format that has the issue that one can't use the RTP timestamp field for transport purposes. But, I do note that the Retransmission format will not even be monotonically increasing for 4588. This is one does a second retransmission of an older packet next to newer packets. > > > Two follow-up questions: > 1. What RTP timestamp frequency do we recommend for flexfec packets? > This doesn't seem to be specified in the draft. This should be sufficiently high for transport related sampling. I would say 10 kHz is likely sufficient. It should definitely not be below 1kHz. > > 2. What value do we think the current definition of the flexfec > timestamps will provide (representing the transmission time of the > flexfec packet)? The possiblity of computing the trannsmission jitter? > It's not immediately obvious to me what value that adds. Yes, jitter calculation is one thing that is possible. But I do note that it is not as useful as for something that is regularly emitted. However, the timestamp will provide some indication on how quickly and when retransmission decisions was acted on. This can help determine for the receiver the necessary timing needed for a RTX request to reach the receiver. It can also provide a box in time when a missing RTX was sent, if the packets after and before was received. Enabling better adaptive handling of retransmission loss. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Sep 8 03:37:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9F912B171; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 03:37:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4zG4ngqSSogk; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 03:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BAA012B469; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 03:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id i184so248131247itf.1; Thu, 08 Sep 2016 03:37:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:thread-index :content-language; bh=lUfekJE/0GIorEgakK5FVG8zW9xEejD1YMhgcP6Tjgw=; b=d6ooJuK7HkBWGjHdZPTn1Cemr1ZE0hGVjP9aM8OFDkK9+ofFX3BP1gz8Bs3glB4egP kPu6bragpfkJh0s4EghetdKHYkfN7iKW9PMt23MLu4yYGFCVLLD9uxvqWL/0va5qOUOZ 9mU4IIFvD3eCoFjphJkGEMWwSm2KSDomeu8+uNjog62TDzuBiCxQzJt78aSkkrl8+imt FWzbgG7EwCzTTNcb+9RiM0Z1gbyEi7c26ZZPcwx3/RazWN1OSPqPQRMH2/Dp1BiboEXm Ph7YzCNPcMMQm09YvYcKjoJY4mzD7K8IJaWtHd8kpRJwofBNSk8m69V9En8alIg8DX24 l8sA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=lUfekJE/0GIorEgakK5FVG8zW9xEejD1YMhgcP6Tjgw=; b=mfIzauEzXsAMGsqipFg8Tceh8BPfqKNClznmzT6GZM7APlm+qyzg11Ez/AxKjUOixg FCcpo+DHlK9dMk66+DmxfjFyRHqM2EEXVv3R1DsbDTrisPPJu4iu1lHbKmn6vYQ4SvUJ rtmvvq437m+lC4YPIrtsrRCF6SA3aRqi7Bfb6IZLSQgXc3wOv1Q4rHDe/GBdbDBuRmnD IxK8+556xQlxJmoNc+X3k0S8/glbTyaps+/euHDTOBZm87LkcOvh688rn4HARgaLFRv9 6JjBMR5jTtNREoZnhsOSMp5vK3mDgr5lQZCJno9Sog8DMe5EQTa6zjKLKySVV0/liIG8 Xq6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwMfN18T7M4m+bb/47zrlLKpCmy8/3Og2kqx74BJf4M0uk9peddeobSy9CRvRR3nBA== X-Received: by 10.36.55.146 with SMTP id r140mr14408636itr.73.1473331042412; Thu, 08 Sep 2016 03:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniPC (bzq-79-178-255-20.red.bezeqint.net. [79.178.255.20]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v69sm6397160itc.1.2016.09.08.03.37.20 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Sep 2016 03:37:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:36:23 +0300 Message-ID: <050e01d209bc$d9f528f0$8ddf7ad0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_050F_01D209D5.FF43E790" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdIJvEPMSyIKcSs6RMurEILHh6oPhw== Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: payload@ietf.org Subject: [payload] review media type registartion of audio/melpe media subtype X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 10:37:32 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_050F_01D209D5.FF43E790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, draft-ietf-payload-melpe-03 completed WGLC in the Payload WG. The document registers audio/MELP, audio/MELP2400, audio/MELP1200, and audio/MELP600. The new registration is in Section 4.1 of the document and is also given below. Comments on the registration are welcome. Thanks. Roni Even Payload WG co-chair Media Type Definition Type names: audio Subtype name: MELP, MELP2400, MELP1200, and MELP600 Required parameters: N/A Optional parameters: ptime, maxptime, bitrate Encoding considerations: This media type is framed and binary, see section 4.8 in RFC6838 [RFC6838]. Security considerations: Please see security consideration in RFC6562 [RFC6562]. Interoperability considerations: Early implementations used MELP2400, MELP1200, and MELP600 to indicate both coder type and bit rate. These media type names should be preserved with this registration. Published specification: N/A Applications that use this media type: N/A Additional information: N/A Deprecated alias names for this type: N/A Magic number(s): N/A File extension(s): N/A Macintosh file type code(s): N/A Person & email address to contact for further information: Victor Demjanenko, Ph.D. VOCAL Technologies, Ltd. 520 Lee Entrance, Suite 202 Buffalo, NY 14228 USA Phone: +1 716 688 4675 Email: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com Intended usage: COMMON Restrictions on usage: This media type depends on RTP framing, and hence is only defined for transfer via RTP [RFC3550]. Transport within other framing protocols is not defined at this time. Author: Victor Demjanenko Change controller: IETF Payload working group delegated from the IESG. Provisional registration? (standards tree only): No ------=_NextPart_000_050F_01D209D5.FF43E790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Hi there,

draft-ie=
tf-payload-melpe-03  completed WGLC in the Payload WG.
The =
document registers audio/MELP, =
audio/MELP2400, audio/MELP1200, and audio/MELP600. =
 
 
The new registration is in Section 4.1 of the =
document and is also given below.

Comments on the registration =
are welcome.

Thanks.

Roni Even

Payload WG co-chair

 

Media Type = Definition

 

   Type names:

 

      = audio

 

   Subtype name:

 

      MELP, = MELP2400, MELP1200, and MELP600

 

   Required = parameters:

 

      N/A

 

   Optional = parameters:

 

      ptime, maxptime, = bitrate

 

   Encoding considerations:

 

      This = media type is framed and binary, see section 4.8 in = RFC6838

      = [RFC6838].

 

   Security considerations:

 

      = Please see security consideration in RFC6562 = [RFC6562].

 

   Interoperability = considerations:

 

      Early implementations used = MELP2400, MELP1200, and MELP600 to

      indicate both coder type and bit = rate.  These media type names

      should be preserved with this = registration.

 

   Published specification:

 

      = N/A

 

   Applications that use this media = type:

 

      N/A

 

   Additional = information:

 

      N/A

 

   Deprecated alias names = for this type:

 

      N/A

 

   Magic = number(s):

 

      N/A

 

   File = extension(s):

 

      N/A

 

   Macintosh file type = code(s):

 

      N/A

 

   Person & email = address to contact for further information:

 

      = Victor Demjanenko, Ph.D.

      VOCAL Technologies, = Ltd.

      520 = Lee Entrance, Suite 202

      Buffalo, NY = 14228

      = USA

      = Phone: +1 716 688 4675

      Email: = victor.demjanenko@vocal.com

 

   Intended = usage:

 

      COMMON

 

   Restrictions on = usage:

 

      This media type depends on RTP = framing, and hence is only defined

      for transfer via RTP = [RFC3550].  Transport within other framing

      protocols is not defined at this = time.

 

   Author:

 

      = Victor Demjanenko

 

  =  Change controller:

 

      IETF = Payload working group delegated from the IESG.

 

   Provisional = registration? (standards tree only):

 

      = No

 

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b=Wih2vbWKeLBehTVmVDhVFu8cWJsgkqtgcCF/V/8NIBgLTQTpbDiKP/tGdMur1E3S86eg5vYjEaLsmItBRDSoIkEWYj9ARoLmUc6JyUH8rDRqBKkKcR5AcmqXmWqCp08qA9WD6qYkUKdiWZWgWOUVhZq5+CH+rzy3H/Tu3/VDcL8= Received: from CY4PR05MB3109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.172.157.7) by CY4PR05MB3112.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.172.160.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA_P384) id 15.1.619.3; Wed, 14 Sep 2016 19:45:52 +0000 Received: from CY4PR05MB3109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.157.7]) by CY4PR05MB3109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.157.7]) with mapi id 15.01.0619.011; Wed, 14 Sep 2016 19:45:52 +0000 From: Thomas Edwards To: Ben Campbell , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary.all@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-05 Thread-Index: AQHR/yJkO7a/YAI3lEyxj4PcFiCusqB5DZSA Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 19:45:52 +0000 Message-ID: <65AF893B-A752-4D12-AC6F-ABE7DF2DB534@fox.com> References: 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<92304366B5D7294C88ADC8A8A7A40A49@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2016 19:45:52.3691 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR05MB3112 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-09-14_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1609020000 definitions=main-1609140263 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-05 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: 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dGhlIA0KPnBhY2tldCBmb3JtYXQsIG9yDQo+c29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2U/DQo+DQo+LTMuMSwgb3B0 aW9uYWwgcGFyYW1ldGVyczoNCj5JcyB0aGlzIGxpbmsgcmVhc29uYWJseSBwZXJtYW5lbnQ/IEFs c28sIGNvbnNpZGVyIG1vdmluZyB0aGlzIHRvIHRoZSANCj5yZWZlcmVuY2VzIHNlY3Rpb24NCj4o cGVyaGFwcyBpbiBhIHNlcGFyYXRlICJVUkxzIiBzZWN0aW9uKSBhbmQgY2l0aW5nIGl0IG5vcm1h bGx5Lg0KPg0KPkl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGhlbHBmdWwgdG8gbWVudGlvbiB0aGF0IERJRF9TRElTIGNh biBvY2N1ciBtdWx0aXBsZSB0aW1lcyANCj4ob3IgYmUgYSBsaXN0IG9mDQo+dmFsdWVzLCBkZXBl bmRpbmcgb24geW91ciBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZS4pDQo+DQo+LS0gQ2hhbmdlIGNvbnRyb2xsZXI6DQo+ SSBzdXNwZWN0IHRoaXMgc2hvdWxkIHNheSDigJwgVGhlIElFVEYgUEFZTE9BRCB3b3JraW5nIGdy b3VwLCBvciBvdGhlciANCj5wYXJ0eSBhcyBkZXNpZ25hdGVkDQo+YnkgdGhlIElFU0cu4oCdIg0K Pg0KPi0gMy4yLjENCj4NCj5XaGF0IGRvZXMgImVzc2VuY2UiIG1lYW4gaW4gdGhlIGNvbnRleHQg b2YgInZpZGVvIGVzc2VuY2Ugc3RyZWFtIj8gQW0gSSANCj5jb3JyZWN0IHRvIGFzc3VtZQ0KPml0 IHJlZmVycyB0byB0aGUgYWN0dWFsIHZpZGVvIGNvbnRlbnQ/DQo+DQoNCg== From nobody Thu Sep 15 13:07:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BC812B3A9 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hbaKv0oN4mZJ for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x231.google.com (mail-yb0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B84112B39B for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x93so42826251ybh.1 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=37dy4OHw1qv/sbyk5GVHMzhFq0IjNY/Gz3j4dirx9oc=; b=Ye3eR382RLO0uKloeG97n7yl29iAeCsJcCROlkz3nYHQBYQZPDXsSGPnUh9AYMZmRB Iz4kDGrydEr5VIT1OTcxv+CjdpCQFuJmxBSqX8LuefCXXn7ykEmN2AIrzs1VQ9NgB3uW +BiRmmsGDOyKOfEdP86hAOz682bGUq9x/ddPFQsrWJ+j02WAW7W+uBbM0J6gogSzOFtf gUbZAkf481IUVPALq+a1Eyz6cOuiAq4knk2gmxTiqRQuhyR5UwlUXGqm0BoDuZs+IoDQ dpPiQV69DV/cJINuyxp7ZEk8Friq2rnjxty36RfLQBbhsX0HFXmycRI+idoZGDqi8K+J U+pA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=37dy4OHw1qv/sbyk5GVHMzhFq0IjNY/Gz3j4dirx9oc=; b=VNt0TaVGwCPjo0G8qtsvu7gOnwXI0Ymq7+cYZ8woxQoRKeQ8OJkkHyU3UwjHtkKCFQ 8jahCsTlbK4qNLU6sht4Xs79eD2W15yG6TcaRraYU/T/h8SZy3A8YXs6+gXZzgoocJHk sjBPPSneux2mi9irg4T/AVoTaRdrnl8NjDsaY4GB9IqZDhwqVSREwzlTErLLv41ORnUf h7Hhh5RSmt8vxzdJ45W8T8lJn1V7slPqOKfluAI+xkHB0WoiRY+6LdcnKJvGyiMSXrxN ns3xk9floZrVQPbabSyDR3bQItd3tDON8vSCTBj9fn3JTdZ1m51DWnfkqh/B20UO/oUe GQhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwNHYIk98VRxhZN2agStgqsdeM+PG2AanidYhVCdJWD+5NNxt/HulTrPMilEp9QpM8+oYFc7iVG6GnwPyA== X-Received: by 10.37.68.132 with SMTP id r126mr7197600yba.164.1473970049478; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.33.138 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kjetil Oftedal Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 22:07:29 +0200 Message-ID: To: payload@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-05: ANC Line numbers and multistream video X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:07:32 -0000 Hi, I commented earlier on the draft spec for carriage of ANC data over RTP: >From the earlier email thread: "WGLC comments on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-03" Comment: "This new draft only has 11-bit line numbers with the effect of limiting the supported video rasters to 2047 lines. The emerging 4K/UHD standards on the other hand has around 2160 active lines, thus not fully supported. There is a similar issue with the Horizontal_Offset field. This field is limited to 4096 (12-bits). Ancillary data can be carried in the horizontal blanking/HANC of a SDI-signal, which starts after the active video section, thus it is barley reachable in 3840/UHD formats." >From Thomas Edwards Resolution: "Line_Number" and "Offset" refer to the location of ANC data within an SDI raster, not active video. Several professional video vendors have told me that since 2160 line professional video is carried in a quad mux, the SDI line numbers are not going to change. Moreover, it is expected that ANC data will only be carried in one quadrant of the mux. Going forward, the industry seeks to move away from linkage between SDI lines and location of ANC packets anyway, so it is expected that SDI raster location data will no longer be required soon. Thus I think it is best to maintain compatibility with the existing SMPTE ST 2038 data model. --- I have since reviewed the 2160p over quad link 3G-SDI specification (SMPTE ST 425-5:2015) which states that ancillary data shall be mapped to the first 3G-SDI link first etc. So far so good. However, the specification also requires that Video Payload Identifier ANC packet be present in all the data channels. (6.2.3) Which means there will be at least one ancillary data packet in each of the eight data streams. (Two data streams per 3G-SDI link) How shall this be signaled in the RTP packets? If the Line_number is supposed to be the original SDI raster line number, a receiver can receive the eight VPI packets with the same line number and same position. There is a similar issue with 3G-SDI Level B Dual link, which also requires VPI in both links. Most, if not all HD formats that can be carried with 3G-SDI Level B DL, can be carried with 3G-SDI Level A. So the receiver cannot know what the original link format was based upon video format of the associated video essence stream. Since the line numbers have different meaning in Level B and Level A the original ANC packet placement cannot be reliably restored in this case. Best regards, Kjetil Oftedal From nobody Thu Sep 15 13:58:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD8C12B111 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=foxgroupinc.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HFfwZVHoxLAd for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00195501.pphosted.com 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2016 20:58:29.4092 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR05MB3114 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-09-15_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1609020000 definitions=main-1609150279 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-05: ANC Line numbers and multistream video X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working 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AE9vXwM01uCpn1pyaT8EumyafJKEO/pzX39kXIePWuDACMEKHx1wSeRSF75i4pP1Q2MJaSHFQNgPW34O8OZcXw== X-Received: by 10.129.112.202 with SMTP id l193mr11676114ywc.126.1473975424177; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:37:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.33.138 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:37:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <544ABA56-ECDA-48B4-957E-A4F466342276@fox.com> References: <544ABA56-ECDA-48B4-957E-A4F466342276@fox.com> From: Kjetil Oftedal Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:37:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: Thomas Edwards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "payload@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [payload] draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-05: ANC Line numbers and multistream video X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:37:07 -0000 Hi, I guess most broadcasters will not throw away all their existing equipment when transitioning to IP. And 3G level B is often the only available output on cameras from some manufacturers, so I guess this needs to be supported. This gets even worse with the newer 12G-SDI standards. Such as, ST2082-12 (8K/4K over Quad 12G-SDI) which has 32 data streams mapped onto 4x12G-SDI links. Although it would be nice if level A/full raster remapping was required prior to IP transmission as multistream interfaces does no=E1=BA=97 make that much s= ense in a IP world. But this requires that the line numbers are not from the original SDI raster, but is more though of as timing information between video and ANC data. Regards, Kjetil Oftedal On 15/09/2016, Thomas Edwards wrote: > For those who want to use the various SMPTE multi-link SDI standards with > draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary, we could add optional Media Type > Parameters =E2=80=9C3g-sdi-link=E2=80=9D of 1-4 and =E2=80=9C3g-sdi-data-= stream=E2=80=9D of 1-2. > > I believe this should cover not only SMPTE ST 425-5 Quad Link 3 Gb/s Seri= al > Interface and also SMPTE ST 425-3 Dual Link 3 Gb/s Serial Interface. > > I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of specifying 3G-SDI link/stream inside the pay= load as it > is a corner case for a set of formats about to be wiped out with IP. > Already at IBC last week I saw RFC 4175 over 25 GbE for 2160p50/60. > > -Thomas > > -- > Thomas Edwards=09 > VP Engineering & Development > FOX Networks Engineering and Operations > thomas.edwards@fox.com > Phone: +1.310.369.6696 > 10201 West Pico Blvd. > Los Angeles, CA 90035 > > > On 9/15/16, 1:07 PM, "payload on behalf of Kjetil Oftedal" > wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I commented earlier on the draft spec for carriage of ANC data over RTP: >> >>>From the earlier email thread: "WGLC comments on >>draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-03" >>Comment: >>"This new draft only has 11-bit line numbers with the effect of limiting >>the supported >>video rasters to 2047 lines. The emerging 4K/UHD standards on the other >>hand has around >>2160 active lines, thus not fully supported. There is a similar issue >>with the Horizontal_Offset field. This field is limited to 4096 (12-bits)= . >>Ancillary data can be carried in the horizontal blanking/HANC of a >>SDI-signal, which starts after the active >>video section, thus it is barley reachable in 3840/UHD formats." >> >>>From Thomas Edwards >>Resolution: >>"Line_Number" and "Offset" refer to the location of ANC data within an SD= I >>raster, not active video. Several professional video vendors have told m= e >>that since 2160 line professional video is carried in a quad mux, the SDI >>line numbers are not going to change. Moreover, it is expected that ANC >>data will only be carried in one quadrant of the mux. Going forward, the >>industry seeks to move away from linkage between SDI lines and location o= f >>ANC packets anyway, so it is expected that SDI raster location data will >>no longer be required soon. Thus I think it is best to maintain >>compatibility with the existing SMPTE ST 2038 data model. >>--- >> >>I have since reviewed the 2160p over quad link 3G-SDI specification >>(SMPTE ST 425-5:2015) which states that ancillary data shall be mapped >>to the first 3G-SDI link first etc. So far so good. >>However, the specification also requires that Video Payload Identifier AN= C >>packet be present in all the data channels. (6.2.3) Which means there >>will be at least one ancillary data packet in each of the eight data >> streams. >>(Two data streams per 3G-SDI link) >>How shall this be signaled in the RTP packets? If the Line_number is >> supposed >>to be the original SDI raster line number, a receiver can receive the eig= ht >> VPI >>packets with the same line number and same position. >> >>There is a similar issue with 3G-SDI Level B Dual link, which also >>requires VPI in >>both links. Most, if not all HD formats that can be carried with >>3G-SDI Level B DL, >>can be carried with 3G-SDI Level A. So the receiver cannot know what >>the original >>link format was based upon video format of the associated video essence >> stream. >>Since the line numbers have different meaning in Level B and Level A >>the original >>ANC packet placement cannot be reliably restored in this case. >> >>Best regards, >>Kjetil Oftedal >> >>_______________________________________________ >>payload mailing list >>payload@ietf.org >>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_listinfo_payload&d=3DDQICAg&c=3Duw6TLu4hwhHdiGJOgwcWD4AjKQx6zvFcGEsbfiY9= -EI&r=3DlekNOOM5noV61zrPH3rwPyhtNnLLWoLEHgd0quQxly8&m=3D7SgTMVAgifHttZPn-Ri= KTrfVdTNcrYKuoLuNEgbx9oM&s=3DoBbVZDCNOsUCWc2kT9cC1uG6DdxsiyqsibjJeTlzr5A&e= =3D >> > >