From nobody Thu Dec 6 03:03:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA62F130DE9 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 03:03:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id egVcisoQWirx for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 03:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CB00126F72 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 03:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 7E0A55EACD02C; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:03:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.38) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:03:35 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.140]) by dggemm421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 19:03:29 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Magnus Westerlund , Giridhar Mandyam CC: "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Ben Campbell , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHUdKHUsCqCGfwu2UO8myfbHJx9L6Vxu7iA Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:03:29 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18C85C10@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <154137912756.31875.5347836180455863963@ietfa.amsl.com> <9C1381B7-A4A0-48FB-A811-FCD8EFA54BAF@networked.media> <3CAF95D1-2D49-4EA2-9939-B0E4EC9D8C3B@nostrum.com> <8bd36e09cfe845758d52cc0b2aeb166f@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <62166FDE-60E2-4C39-97EB-2CE9A21FC9BD@nostrum.com> <1d9e52a0143b4959b6ae3645846fe7a8@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <9816C546-A722-49CC-8DE2-1055631771A9@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-10.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 11:03:42 -0000 Hi, Can you send these messages to the list. I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about using= for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by current defin= ition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first paragraph correctly it i= s allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for the default value for ToP and I did not= see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even=20 -----Original Message----- From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM To: Ben Campbell Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; Giridhar Man= dyam Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand why tha= t went off-list. I want to comment on the second paragraph below. On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote: >> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam = wrote: >> >> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the revision= . I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it refers to a= standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status yet (i.e. it may= undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the document. >> >> Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in RFC-editor = missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for not addressin= g my raised issue. The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a sub-s= et of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to the source= flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making it clear that= it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be added to that ef= fect. If we don't have a statement we might find situations where people wi= ll attempt to apply it and gets into the confusion if they try the FEC mode= with multiple source SSRCs where it doesn't work. Cheers=20 Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Dec 6 13:03:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8A0131197 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:03:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PjhyoiuibEf1 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com (alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B07DF130EDA for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1544130194; x=1575666194; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=UDvc4mz0KkyCsLyIvV8ujwcrvCoaFQMAIHlfwYhspy0=; b=PA2qGnim2wFLN4sp5lf1n6+R2PNzo9HrAk3ejOs9xPG7ta16NgigYiqo mVXwN5k1bFg2Q4sae07ADWencft/JzXfT5OWL1ZbXePitcB58lGfFkXEd uSpPg667jgR2AAUhRq8gUNIQqQZejuTWk/CdWtl2cZfzBvcw7RB90kcLb 8=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,323,1539673200"; d="scan'208";a="16642773" Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg05-sd.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.145]) by alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2018 13:03:14 -0800 Received: from nasanexm01c.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) by ironmsg05-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 06 Dec 2018 13:03:13 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.83) by NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:03:13 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) by NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:03:13 -0800 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: "Roni Even (A)" , Magnus Westerlund CC: "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Ben Campbell , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Thread-Index: AdSNorPPkyx2u/zORBuZfJA8MKesUwABEXtQ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 21:03:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <113ed79cfaa347edb8b89a7ac5af3d69@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <113ed79cfaa347edb8b89a7ac5af3d69@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 21:03:24 -0000 Sorry - sent out too soon. The last change should have read: "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f= ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an= associated repair stream. However, this specification already defines a m= ethod of source and repair stream identification that can enable protection= of multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore the RTP= Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexible FE= C payload format." -----Original Message----- From: Giridhar Mandyam=20 Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 12:59 PM To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; Magnus Westerlund Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org Subject: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Magnus, Here is the proposal to respond to your comments in https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/payload/MkHU_bBWl_Dp1jRhlvnFpZB1ewI. Thanks, -Giri Mandyam A. > At least in discussing this with Mo F2F I got the impression that the = plan was to also be explicit about what the lack of it (ToP) means, i.e. it= can be any of the self describing usages, so a mix of retransmission and F= EC is possible. Proposed change: The following sentence will be added to each ToP section:= " The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types are allowe= d." B. >The use of draft-ietf-avtext-rid RepairedRtpStreamId is not at all nee= ded, even if it could be used in a sub-set of applications of flexfec. It = would work in same RTP Session, with a single repair RTP stream only protec= ts a singe source RTP stream. But, considering the possibility of repair of= multiple source streams and different RTP Sessions, I think an explicit st= atement that this SHOULD NOT be used for the payload format would be good t= o include. Proposed Change #1: Add a reference to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i= etf-avtext-rid-09 in the Informative References section. Proposed Change #2: Add Section 7.2, entitled "On the Use of the RTP Strea= m Identifier Source Description", with the following text: "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f= ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an= associated repair stream. However, since this specification already defin= es a method of source and repair stream identification that can enable prot= ection of Multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore t= he RTP Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexi= ble FEC payload format."=20 -----Original Message----- From: Roni Even (A) Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 3:03 AM To: Magnus Westerlund ; Giridhar Mandyam Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org Subject: RE: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, Can you send these messages to the list. I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about using= for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by current defin= ition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first paragraph correctly it i= s allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for the default value for ToP and= I did not see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even=20 -----Original Message----- From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM To: Ben Campbell Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; Giridhar Man= dyam Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand why tha= t went off-list. I want to comment on the second paragraph below. On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote: >> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam = wrote: >> >> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the revision= . I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it refers to a= standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status yet (i.e. it may= undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the document. >> >> Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in RFC-editor = missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for not addressin= g my raised issue. The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a sub-s= et of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to the source= flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making it clear that= it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be added to that ef= fect. If we don't have a statement we might find situations where people wi= ll attempt to apply it and gets into the confusion if they try the FEC mode= with multiple source SSRCs where it doesn't work. Cheers=20 Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Dec 6 13:35:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240551311D4 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:35:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Upd08WSp5Q6s for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com (alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71938130E93 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1544132143; x=1575668143; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=HTqpjcG6QJGRnK75RdxAStVob//+B1dpYE0uqN6+a48=; b=dERPP5wXDW2RjmC6OsMbqV/BTX0ZYgQWGLQvkM9SxqQP1TquzCWYsvQX bGShNCExgyRckCohNt/EVi89rgTJD2WU3WRnZlBoTywuqP+dIlnafuHKP uv1/Q4y+YrEZ6+kSCkpoUjUiCw7T0KQ1Q6BI3Nn/NWRAC2TrsDQDmt6Pl s=; X-URL-LookUp-ScanningError: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,323,1539673200"; d="scan'208";a="19624179" Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg01-sd.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.141]) by alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2018 12:58:59 -0800 Received: from nasanexm01h.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.34]) by ironmsg01-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 06 Dec 2018 12:58:50 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.83) by NASANEXM01H.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 12:58:50 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) by NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 12:58:50 -0800 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: "Roni Even (A)" , Magnus Westerlund CC: "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Ben Campbell , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Thread-Index: AdSNorPPkyx2u/zORBuZfJA8MKesUw== Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 20:58:49 +0000 Message-ID: <113ed79cfaa347edb8b89a7ac5af3d69@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 21:35:46 -0000 Magnus, Here is the proposal to respond to your comments in https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/payload/MkHU_bBWl_Dp1jRhlvnFpZB1ewI. Thanks, -Giri Mandyam A. > At least in discussing this with Mo F2F I got the impression that the = plan was to also be explicit about what the lack of it (ToP) means, i.e. it= can be any of the self describing usages, so a mix of retransmission and F= EC is possible. Proposed change: The following sentence will be added to each ToP section:= " The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types are allowe= d." B. >The use of draft-ietf-avtext-rid RepairedRtpStreamId is not at all nee= ded, even if it could be used in a sub-set of applications of flexfec. It = would work in same RTP Session, with a single repair RTP stream only protec= ts a singe source RTP stream. But, considering the possibility of repair of= multiple source streams and different RTP Sessions, I think an explicit st= atement that this SHOULD NOT be used for the payload format would be good t= o include. Proposed Change #1: Add a reference to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i= etf-avtext-rid-09 in the Informative References section. Proposed Change #2: Add Section 7.2, entitled "On the Use of the RTP Strea= m Identifier Source Description", with the following text: "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f= ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an= associated repair stream. However, since this specification already defin= es a method of source and repair stream identification that can enable prot= ection of=20 Multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore the RTP Str= eam Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexible FEC pa= yload format."=20 -----Original Message----- From: Roni Even (A) =20 Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 3:03 AM To: Magnus Westerlund ; Giridhar Mandyam Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org Subject: RE: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, Can you send these messages to the list. I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about using= for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by current defin= ition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first paragraph correctly it i= s allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for the default value for ToP and= I did not see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even=20 -----Original Message----- From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM To: Ben Campbell Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; Giridhar Man= dyam Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand why tha= t went off-list. I want to comment on the second paragraph below. On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote: >> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam = wrote: >> >> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the revision= . I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it refers to a= standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status yet (i.e. it may= undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the document. >> >> Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in RFC-editor = missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for not addressin= g my raised issue. The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a sub-s= et of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to the source= flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making it clear that= it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be added to that ef= fect. If we don't have a statement we might find situations where people wi= ll attempt to apply it and gets into the confusion if they try the FEC mode= with multiple source SSRCs where it doesn't work. Cheers=20 Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Dec 7 05:27:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A743E12E043 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 05:27:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=ZiUGIAOi; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=jdoU7RGT Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VeR-Gcxnb2-s for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 05:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3375212D84D for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 05:27:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1544189231; x=1546781231; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RJFfl+ddansM9pizxVB9cJf16SaWMj6QQqgjWlhoWgA=; b=ZiUGIAOiLKqEaghaUCRgxDMJorBSddpoxOIqxHtc/iPZp3dddjK6ioKzmTURxi9m mJHzCrBVlslOUIYqyGpruOwA/YTGlmsglaSVMZq3ISI/Hj83DgWPgKqlEZTdwXR/ aK+EQIMIqzfTOq5aWU8nP1pJru9QwNjMKNyNTAv1t1c=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-477ff70000002747-01-5c0a752f8757 Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.120]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 45.5C.10055.F257A0C5; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:27:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESBMR504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.139) by ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:26:29 +0100 Received: from ESESBMB505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.172) by ESESBMR504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:26:29 +0100 Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (153.88.183.157) by ESESBMB505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.172) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:26:28 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=JeH5EvHUoYRipOLzbuQvUOP+M+phOQfrPphZRlhE1Q8=; b=jdoU7RGTdRdCgZiO9SWCq+lSMdVHfPD16oJdOG8WzaPMWzqILPrRJBbEQvwMpwqBQOZvudX+xVkoahXo13zpw6ib8H4uaUHNhB4yzkabRNDY8SMNFbMu7l5NZ7vhYviY/bUFCK5D5oNLwQVwChhljt+igBI6qVtCuLhv4zItttQ= Received: from AM0PR07MB4979.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.19.28) by AM0PR07MB5698.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.113.206) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1425.9; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:26:27 +0000 Received: from AM0PR07MB4979.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d011:17bc:7193:9bca]) by AM0PR07MB4979.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d011:17bc:7193:9bca%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1425.006; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:26:27 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: Giridhar Mandyam , "Roni Even (A)" CC: "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Ben Campbell , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Thread-Index: AdSNorPPkyx2u/zORBuZfJA8MKesUw== Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:26:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <113ed79cfaa347edb8b89a7ac5af3d69@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.93] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM0PR07MB5698; 6:aI/RWRV7qdqV5pYSEuBt8QloWfX58z26CwGWWGkT0B7fNJJLrqCNq12KvQ935PHPvOO2qGsSjQOiAMr5HsAlzknQFxioOEmqCWd+Vfe/VjoyyFgm7IA2qssHjBa3RFP2z/YmiEhvmnsync7rr/u+MrHYAnRzZrX6LZFoH1zpqsrDdsQp6S3/swzHvwVnRYQDtcU5dOPrlVc9Gm6y8bDifuLVlVFpsAFQaKLPOOXz8/CRbw8G/biLhOfiWpmtbuAivIgGyM6TxFyGcKnmvTYq8Snv/PF780pgk48HbZZtDfmklNGjatksrvEYZMjhbB3heXZDNy2Nt+gs6XIADPRnXFzdyutEu9q68W4Jqn1mbP0NvwX32LVaXNnf36BfR2k2mxzj0eH0UzpH7O4zG9pkAx+PUYiaIGHWlOqwEpX5g4SZ+FJwD6/xf9RTkGhClY7MYtL1cgChg88zXZmyXOBDpg==; 5:T1e1/fAcJ1XFZuEbUo7G/xNe0JHOG95oKdqt99k+BNAyDvpwIAWqxloxDjcfyVc34U6WU5K/xHn32CjgnAbrEc1wLHpBv7fXQ6znobdZnCNTXg6DcU1hYUqNtllTHd5JhQJFudZCey9isk0YwEAQmsoPm7WCY1L0ymktJgLODKs=; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 255c4132-1487-4623-17de-08d65c4797c5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Dec 2018 13:26:27.7588 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB5698 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02Sa0iTYRTHed7bXkeLp5V6sIwY0YfyUqK5rOzyIYZhCFGUjHLkm4rblL0q an1QMaip2apJWqbpGiZSdrG8RpNWDDFvaeqHzPs0RB15y25u74q+/c5z/v/zPwcelpQ+oX3Y BG0Kp9Oq1DJGTBWfeZXuH5gqVu62jOyQWxbtpLzsWptIPrs8gOT2L/cIeXdXOyF3vOugDjOK 26tPaUXu2xlaYTKtEIpGc6dIUdIwRikqjBMoiokWH4jl1AlpnC4wPEYcP/lpVpTcG5J+9Upo Fqry0yMPFnAw9Jt7CT0Ss1L8FkHzso0WigUE07mV6F/xY2rWLaskYOXxdVeHwjdI0I82uj0G AhzzVaRQDK9Na9KLnDEMlsPAcjbj5E34LEx9e804RSQ2IXhUZ3U1NuIIqLcbRILoONS3OCiB A+Bd4WPayRTeDuM1OWvZLCvBSpizBQpheQjaJu67vAj7wtDSZ5eXxN4wOFZGCLdiMDV3kAJ7 wtToL9o5B/A2GBqIFp59obssz3Ua4D4GPozY3F5/mDMa3d5IuPN9hha4E0HOgk7gnXCrbpoW dlBBf/a425sIdwffuPVbobpgmBIC+klob9ATN9Dukv92FdgPypscjMC7wPzgK+lkCd4AtuIx qhxR1ciT53heExcUFMDpEi7wfJI2QMulPENr38jyYjWsHlkmj7QizCLZOkmSRqyU0qo0PkPT ioAlZZskMvXakyRWlZHJ6ZLO61LVHN+KNrOUzFty9KI8WorjVClcIsclc7q/XYL18MlCyvdW c35tg/X3rDRQlr/+OZARfqHzJ39tqzAXFvXQe4MP3rRe8gh53VIQ2xUfvprzsjZsPdRm9paX GsK7mkNqpXVjDis6Z/A63zeSuqXqTXiU5z7GGONriDv18LsjYklZE/pz4XQPddl+yGt4rhTf erS/KLLiY0auSHNs0cd4Qkbx8ao9O0kdr/oD4YGDl0IDAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 13:27:19 -0000 Hi,=0A= =0A= Looks good to me.=0A= =0A= Cheers=0A= =0A= Magnus=0A= =0A= On 2018-12-06 22:03, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:=0A= > Sorry - sent out too soon.=0A= >=0A= > The last change should have read:=0A= >=0A= > "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a= format that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with = an associated repair stream. However, this specification already defines a= method of source and repair stream identification that can enable protecti= on of multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore the R= TP Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexible = FEC payload format."=0A= >=0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: Giridhar Mandyam =0A= > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 12:59 PM=0A= > To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; Magnus Westerlund =0A= > Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org=0A= > Subject: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11=0A= >=0A= > Magnus,=0A= > Here is the proposal to respond to your comments in https://mailarchive.i= etf.org/arch/msg/payload/MkHU_bBWl_Dp1jRhlvnFpZB1ewI.=0A= >=0A= > Thanks,=0A= > -Giri Mandyam=0A= >=0A= > A. > At least in discussing this with Mo F2F I got the impression that th= e plan was to also be explicit about what the lack of it (ToP) means, i.e. = it can be any of the self describing usages, so a mix of retransmission and= FEC is possible.=0A= >=0A= > Proposed change: The following sentence will be added to each ToP sectio= n: " The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types are allo= wed."=0A= >=0A= > B. >The use of draft-ietf-avtext-rid RepairedRtpStreamId is not at all n= eeded, even if it could be used in a sub-set of applications of flexfec. I= t would work in same RTP Session, with a single repair RTP stream only prot= ects a singe source RTP stream. But, considering the possibility of repair = of multiple source streams and different RTP Sessions, I think an explicit = statement that this SHOULD NOT be used for the payload format would be good= to include.=0A= >=0A= > Proposed Change #1: Add a reference to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft= -ietf-avtext-rid-09 in the Informative References section.=0A= >=0A= > Proposed Change #2: Add Section 7.2, entitled "On the Use of the RTP Str= eam Identifier Source Description", with the following text:=0A= >=0A= > "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a= format that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with = an associated repair stream. However, since this specification already def= ines a method of source and repair stream identification that can enable pr= otection of Multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore= the RTP Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Fle= xible FEC payload format." =0A= >=0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: Roni Even (A) =0A= > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 3:03 AM=0A= > To: Magnus Westerlund ; Giridhar Mandyam = =0A= > Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org=0A= > Subject: RE: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme= -10.txt=0A= >=0A= > Hi,=0A= > Can you send these messages to the list.=0A= > I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about usi= ng for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by current def= inition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first paragraph correctly it= is allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for the default value for ToP a= nd I did not see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even =0A= >=0A= >=0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]=0A= > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM=0A= > To: Ben Campbell=0A= > Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; Giridhar M= andyam=0A= > Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme= -10.txt=0A= >=0A= > Hi,=0A= >=0A= > I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand why t= hat went off-list.=0A= >=0A= > I want to comment on the second paragraph below.=0A= >=0A= > On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote:=0A= >>> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:=0A= >>>=0A= >>> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the revisio= n. I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it refers to = a standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status yet (i.e. it ma= y undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the document.=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= > Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in RFC-edito= r missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for not address= ing my raised issue.=0A= >=0A= > The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a sub= -set of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to the sour= ce flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making it clear th= at it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be added to that = effect. If we don't have a statement we might find situations where people = will attempt to apply it and gets into the confusion if they try the FEC mo= de with multiple source SSRCs where it doesn't work.=0A= >=0A= > Cheers =0A= >=0A= > Magnus Westerlund =0A= >=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287=0A= > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A= > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= >=0A= >=0A= =0A= -- =0A= =0A= Magnus Westerlund =0A= =0A= ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A= ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287=0A= Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A= SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A= ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= =0A= From nobody Fri Dec 7 10:39:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA33130FA8 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q_DHg1DmAMjr for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 735C5130FA6 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.45] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wB7IcxiS012515 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:39:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1544207942; bh=jR8w+VLjrcKPnfENtqouh1vnwldG8CpVA8aA8yaLU/Q=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=gryVINVJ4BjlNVeiNTgg2/hUgjLmGAmHk1S3QBod3QEyJlBASwFDL7+kX0tui0ZeT IRjO9qtmdBgyG8V9L5MgVNjZyB5T5TeTa6SMMqi1gOca/rmZVIVcDQhU0zEJUgJzZL NRkmqAmPenWMt0g+i01ENMzepHmHenekZjD7b9wQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.45] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <39E260D1-2B02-4684-9624-150CBD0B6456@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1C931877-2BD4-4E8A-A697-0D63BB194BE7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:38:58 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: Giridhar Mandyam , "Roni Even (A)" , "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , "payload@ietf.org" To: Magnus Westerlund References: <113ed79cfaa347edb8b89a7ac5af3d69@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:39:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1C931877-2BD4-4E8A-A697-0D63BB194BE7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does this resolve the discussion? Thanks! Ben (who apologies for not having caught up on the thread yet.) > On Dec 7, 2018, at 7:26 AM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Looks good to me. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 > On 2018-12-06 22:03, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: >> Sorry - sent out too soon. >>=20 >> The last change should have read: >>=20 >> "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] = is a format that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream = along with an associated repair stream. However, this specification = already defines a method of source and repair stream identification that = can enable protection of multiple source streams with a single repair = stream. Therefore the RTP Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD = NOT be used for the Flexible FEC payload format." >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Giridhar Mandyam >> Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 12:59 PM >> To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; Magnus Westerlund = >> Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) = ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org >> Subject: Proposed changes to = draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 >>=20 >> Magnus, >> Here is the proposal to respond to your comments in = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/payload/MkHU_bBWl_Dp1jRhlvnFpZB1ewI.= >>=20 >> Thanks, >> -Giri Mandyam >>=20 >> A. > At least in discussing this with Mo F2F I got the impression = that the plan was to also be explicit about what the lack of it (ToP) = means, i.e. it can be any of the self describing usages, so a mix of = retransmission and FEC is possible. >>=20 >> Proposed change: The following sentence will be added to each ToP = section: " The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types = are allowed." >>=20 >> B. >The use of draft-ietf-avtext-rid RepairedRtpStreamId is not at = all needed, even if it could be used in a sub-set of applications of = flexfec. It would work in same RTP Session, with a single repair RTP = stream only protects a singe source RTP stream. But, considering the = possibility of repair of multiple source streams and different RTP = Sessions, I think an explicit statement that this SHOULD NOT be used for = the payload format would be good to include. >>=20 >> Proposed Change #1: Add a reference to = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rid-09 in the Informative = References section. >>=20 >> Proposed Change #2: Add Section 7.2, entitled "On the Use of the RTP = Stream Identifier Source Description", with the following text: >>=20 >> "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] = is a format that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream = along with an associated repair stream. However, since this = specification already defines a method of source and repair stream = identification that can enable protection of Multiple source streams = with a single repair stream. Therefore the RTP Stream Idenfifer Source = Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexible FEC payload format." >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Roni Even (A) >> Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 3:03 AM >> To: Magnus Westerlund ; Giridhar = Mandyam >> Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) = ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [payload] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-10.txt >>=20 >> Hi, >> Can you send these messages to the list. >> I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about = using for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by = current definition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first = paragraph correctly it is allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for = the default value for ToP and I did not see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM >> To: Ben Campbell >> Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; = Giridhar Mandyam >> Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-10.txt >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand = why that went off-list. >>=20 >> I want to comment on the second paragraph below. >>=20 >> On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the = revision. I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it = refers to a standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status = yet (i.e. it may undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the = document. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >> Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in = RFC-editor missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for = not addressing my raised issue. >>=20 >> The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a = sub-set of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to = the source flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making = it clear that it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be = added to that effect. If we don't have a statement we might find = situations where people will attempt to apply it and gets into the = confusion if they try the FEC mode with multiple source SSRCs where it = doesn't work. >>=20 >> Cheers >>=20 >> Magnus Westerlund >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1C931877-2BD4-4E8A-A697-0D63BB194BE7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlwKvkIACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3I4RAAq0dUzORx3SGuyvOHHUxIq/LXJAmPTi/QIP6pJ8ijHXUUk+DNi7HsKaMy TtNJXkmTjDrNwBvaNG+QjVG1OxgnjV1YZcqXf/LLLZ7oQrIxLyrmySOe5QDE33T+ K4onwGMopjQl875YG9y+1Ww8Su4ARKnLwXxEKXTEiFg4JHAftzdIlhF43TlUOVie SoLAF/NYSfpE+b5ibptw/rsOjwsbPBOee0TuAJDB1OQxfBMvvySTAD55Uu3DZrht r17Whr/wrn/POSxCPhYbCPZXDGX+K6YAsh059pkOdLjn9P4apjbXKwEx+N0fVWBz 5Oj3DuKYTOY6EMqGCh1LCUYyYt1NdO7vFeHMWxkhAoAK0N5J+WV2/YjxIGsbC3F+ pogWAmWHQYrmOHgklU3RyPnLzJb+NKXYoSfGaThlU0S11fVDr6esH3H3UFGhaMvs IBM0fwS5+JHUhuutfP7b57Ftw8sln5vD65859egM4LK/Fi3GOvvh4MM6xG5ugd4q qdQCmZJFfuMVBVR3JRm3l3qf3jdbm2DX8M8xZjXCXaa5FNUWupKZcJYbIO0w756q gd816d0cUyZ4g3Lot4uYQ3aaR+XIjoILJXBlsP0wEe6fW42RhvEoBeP8arm3dZq1 SX8cZyM+m8OHUtVQX/ZEwIcgXq9cBN3/m8JDGZM3e9GJfkkpy0Q= =/9GV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1C931877-2BD4-4E8A-A697-0D63BB194BE7-- From nobody Fri Dec 7 15:32:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFE7130E1D; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 15:32:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: payload@ietf.org Message-ID: <154422554299.20231.1300848600231366801@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 15:32:23 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 23:32:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the IETF. Title : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Correction (FEC) Authors : Mo Zanaty Varun Singh Ali Begen Giridhar Mandyam Filename : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2018-12-07 Abstract: This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP. These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more source RTP streams. These FEC repair packets are sent in a redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that carries the source packets. RTP source packets that were lost in transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets that were received. The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes which are defined in this specification offer a good protection against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of decent complexity. The RTP payload formats that are defined in this document address the scalability issues experienced with the earlier specifications including RFC 2733, RFC 5109 and SMPTE 2022-1, and offer several improvements. Due to these changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with the earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Dec 10 02:11:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4400130F08 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVpcn_-ug3gk for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66F33130F00 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 18908FC55FEC0; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:11:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:11:18 +0000 Received: from lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) by lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1591.10; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:11:18 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.41) by lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1591.10 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:11:17 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.124]) by dggemm424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:11:12 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Giridhar Mandyam , Magnus Westerlund CC: "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Ben Campbell , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Thread-Index: AdSNorPPkyx2u/zORBuZfJA8MKesUwABEXtQALJmQOA= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:11:12 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18C8F81D@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <113ed79cfaa347edb8b89a7ac5af3d69@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:11:25 -0000 Hi, In the -12 version why did you refer to the individual draft and not to htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rid-09=20 Roni Even -----Original Message----- From: Giridhar Mandyam [mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 11:03 PM To: Roni Even (A); Magnus Westerlund Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Ben Campbell; payload@ietf.org Subject: RE: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Sorry - sent out too soon. The last change should have read: "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f= ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an= associated repair stream. However, this specification already defines a m= ethod of source and repair stream identification that can enable protection= of multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore the RTP= Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexible FE= C payload format." -----Original Message----- From: Giridhar Mandyam=20 Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 12:59 PM To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; Magnus Westerlund Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org Subject: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11 Magnus, Here is the proposal to respond to your comments in https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/payload/MkHU_bBWl_Dp1jRhlvnFpZB1ewI. Thanks, -Giri Mandyam A. > At least in discussing this with Mo F2F I got the impression that the = plan was to also be explicit about what the lack of it (ToP) means, i.e. it= can be any of the self describing usages, so a mix of retransmission and F= EC is possible. Proposed change: The following sentence will be added to each ToP section:= " The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types are allowe= d." B. >The use of draft-ietf-avtext-rid RepairedRtpStreamId is not at all nee= ded, even if it could be used in a sub-set of applications of flexfec. It = would work in same RTP Session, with a single repair RTP stream only protec= ts a singe source RTP stream. But, considering the possibility of repair of= multiple source streams and different RTP Sessions, I think an explicit st= atement that this SHOULD NOT be used for the payload format would be good t= o include. Proposed Change #1: Add a reference to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i= etf-avtext-rid-09 in the Informative References section. Proposed Change #2: Add Section 7.2, entitled "On the Use of the RTP Strea= m Identifier Source Description", with the following text: "The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f= ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an= associated repair stream. However, since this specification already defin= es a method of source and repair stream identification that can enable prot= ection of Multiple source streams with a single repair stream. Therefore t= he RTP Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexi= ble FEC payload format."=20 -----Original Message----- From: Roni Even (A) Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 3:03 AM To: Magnus Westerlund ; Giridhar Mandyam Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org Subject: RE: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, Can you send these messages to the list. I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about using= for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by current defin= ition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first paragraph correctly it i= s allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for the default value for ToP and= I did not see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even=20 -----Original Message----- From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM To: Ben Campbell Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; Giridhar Man= dyam Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1= 0.txt Hi, I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand why tha= t went off-list. I want to comment on the second paragraph below. On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote: >> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam = wrote: >> >> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the revision= . I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it refers to a= standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status yet (i.e. it may= undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the document. >> >> Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in RFC-editor = missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for not addressin= g my raised issue. The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a sub-s= et of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to the source= flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making it clear that= it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be added to that ef= fect. If we don't have a statement we might find situations where people wi= ll attempt to apply it and gets into the confusion if they try the FEC mode= with multiple source SSRCs where it doesn't work. Cheers=20 Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Dec 10 03:44:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EBD130F05 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 03:44:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.757 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.757 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Authors. With the exception of the id-nits and RID reference this is ready. But can = you please addresses the below relevant ID-nits and update the reference to= RID to the WG version. Authors should always run ID-nits before submitting= a version. It avoids so many small errors. /tmp/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12.txt(1946): Found possible IP= v4 address '143.163.151.157' in position 18; this doesn't match the suggest= ed documentation address ranges specified in RFC 6890 (or successor): block= s 192.0.2.0/24 (TEST-NET-1), 198.51.100.0/24 (TEST-NET-2), and 203.0.113.0/= 24 (TEST-NET-3); or the 233.252.0.0/24 (MCAST-TEST-NET) example multicast a= ddress range specified in RFC 5771. =3D=3D Unused Reference: 'RFC6709' is defined on line 1735, but no explic= it reference was found in the text '[RFC6709] Carpenter, B., Aboba, B., Ed., and S. Cheshire, "Design C.= ..' =3D=3D Unused Reference: 'RFC2733' is defined on line 1762, but no explic= it reference was found in the text '[RFC2733] Rosenberg, J. and H. Schulzrinne, "An RTP Payload Format..= .' =3D=3D Unused Reference: 'SMPTE2022-1' is defined on line 1801, but no ex= plicit reference was found in the text '[SMPTE2022-1] SMPTE 2022-1-2007, "Forward Error Correction for Real-.= ..' ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 3555 (Obsoleted by RFC 4855, RFC 485= 6) ** Downref: Normative reference to an Informational RFC: RFC 6709 -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 2326 (Obsoleted by RFC 7826) -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 2733 (Obsoleted by RFC 5109) -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 5246 (Obsoleted by RFC 8446) Replace I-D.roach-avtext-rid] with https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rid-09 Cheers Magnus On 2018-12-08 00:32, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the I= ETF. Title : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Cor= rection (FEC) Authors : Mo Zanaty Varun Singh Ali Begen Giridhar Mandyam Filename : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2018-12-07 Abstract: This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP. These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more source RTP streams. These FEC repair packets are sent in a redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that carries the source packets. RTP source packets that were lost in transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets that were received. The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes which are defined in this specification offer a good protection against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of decent complexity. The RTP payload formats that are defined in this document address the scalability issues experienced with the earlier specifications including RFC 2733, RFC 5109 and SMPTE 2022-1, and offer several improvements. Due to these changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with the earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem= e-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-= 12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_DB7PR07MB498871F09483207ED3DFD2F695A50DB7PR07MB4988eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Authors.

With the exception of the id-nits and RID re= ference this is ready. But can you please addresses the below relevant ID-n= its and update the reference to RID to the WG version. Authors should alway= s run ID-nits before submitting a version. It avoids so many small errors. 

/tmp/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12.txt(1946): Found possib=
le IPv4 address '143.163.151.157' in position 18; this doesn't match the su=
ggested documentation address ranges specified in RFC 6890 (or successor): =
blocks 192.0.2.0/24 (TEST-NET-1), 198.51.100.0/24 (TEST-NET-2), and 203.0.1=
13.0/24 (TEST-NET-3); or the 233.252.0.0/24 (MCAST-TEST-NET) example multic=
ast address range specified in RFC 5771.

  =3D=3D Unused Reference: 'RFC6709' is defined on line 1735, but no e=
xplicit=0A=
     reference was found in the text=0A=
     '[RFC6709]  Carpenter, B., Aboba, B., Ed., and S. Cheshire, "Desi=
gn C...'=0A=
=0A=
  =3D=3D Unused Reference: 'RFC2733' is defined on line 1762, but no explic=
it=0A=
     reference was found in the text=0A=
     '[RFC2733]  Rosenberg, J. and H. Schulzrinne, "An RTP Payload For=
mat...'=0A=
=0A=
  =3D=3D Unused Reference: 'SMPTE2022-1' is defined on line 1801, but no ex=
plicit=0A=
     reference was found in the text=0A=
     '[SMPTE2022-1] SMPTE 2022-1-2007, "Forward Error Correction for R=
eal-...'=0A=
=0A=
  ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 3555 (Obsoleted by RFC 4855, RFC 485=
6)=0A=
=0A=
  ** Downref: Normative reference to an Informational RFC: RFC 6709=0A=
=0A=
  -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 2326=0A=
     (Obsoleted by RFC 7826)=0A=
=0A=
  -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 2733=0A=
     (Obsoleted by RFC 5109)=0A=
=0A=
  -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 5246=0A=
     (Obsoleted by RFC 8446)

Replace I-D.roach-avtext-rid] with
https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rid-09

Cheers

Magnus

On 2018-12-08 00:32, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
=0A=
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.=0A=
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the I=
ETF.=0A=
=0A=
        Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Cor=
rection (FEC)=0A=
        Authors         : Mo Zanaty=0A=
                          Varun Singh=0A=
                          Ali Begen=0A=
                          Giridhar Mandyam=0A=
	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12.txt=0A=
	Pages           : 41=0A=
	Date            : 2018-12-07=0A=
=0A=
Abstract:=0A=
   This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error=0A=
   Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved=0A=
   and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.=0A=
   These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair=0A=
   packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more=0A=
   source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a=0A=
   redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that=0A=
   carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in=0A=
   transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets=0A=
   that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes=0A=
   which are defined in this specification offer a good protection=0A=
   against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of=0A=
   decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this=0A=
   document address the scalability issues experienced with the earlier=0A=
   specifications including RFC 2733, RFC 5109 and SMPTE 2022-1, and=0A=
   offer several improvements.  Due to these changes, the new payload=0A=
   formats are not backward compatible with the earlier specifications,=0A=
   but endpoints that do not implement this specification can still work=0A=
   by simply ignoring the FEC repair packets.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0A=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/=0A=
=0A=
There are also htmlized versions available at:=0A=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12=0A=
https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12=0A=
=0A=
A diff from the previous version is available at:=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff=
?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-12=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n=0A=
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A=
=0A=
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=0A=
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=0A=
=0A=
_______________________________________________=0A=
I-D-Announce mailing list=0A=
I-D-Announce@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce=
=0A=
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=0A=
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt=0A=
=0A=



-- =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------



--_000_DB7PR07MB498871F09483207ED3DFD2F695A50DB7PR07MB4988eurp_--


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From: Giridhar Mandyam 
To: "Roni Even (A)" , Magnus Westerlund 
CC: "Ali C. Begen" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Ben Campbell , "payload@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11
Thread-Index: AdSNorPPkyx2u/zORBuZfJA8MKesUwABEXtQALJmQOAAFt02EA==
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:20:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [payload] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11
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Hi,

Imported the wrong XML file.  I will fix when taking care of the other nits=
 that Magnus brought up in his other email.

Thanks,

-Giri

-----Original Message-----
From: Roni Even (A) =20
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 2:11 AM
To: Giridhar Mandyam ; Magnus Westerlund 
Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11

Hi,
In the -12 version why did you refer to the individual draft and not to htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rid-09=20

Roni Even

-----Original Message-----
From: Giridhar Mandyam [mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 11:03 PM
To: Roni Even (A); Magnus Westerlund
Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Ben Campbell; payload@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11

Sorry - sent out too soon.

The last change should have read:

"The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f=
ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an=
 associated repair stream.  However, this specification already defines a m=
ethod of source and repair stream identification that can enable protection=
 of multiple source streams with a single repair stream.  Therefore the RTP=
 Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexible FE=
C payload format."

-----Original Message-----
From: Giridhar Mandyam=20
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 12:59 PM
To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; Magnus Westerlund 
Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org
Subject: Proposed changes to draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-11

Magnus,
Here is the proposal to respond to your comments in https://mailarchive.iet=
f.org/arch/msg/payload/MkHU_bBWl_Dp1jRhlvnFpZB1ewI.

Thanks,
-Giri Mandyam

A. > At least in discussing this with Mo F2F I got the impression that the =
plan was to also be explicit about what the lack of it (ToP) means, i.e. it=
 can be any of the self describing usages, so a mix of retransmission and F=
EC is possible.

Proposed change:  The following sentence will be added to each ToP section:=
  " The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types are allowe=
d."

B. >The use of draft-ietf-avtext-rid RepairedRtpStreamId is not at all  nee=
ded, even if it could be used in a sub-set of applications of  flexfec. It =
would work in same RTP Session, with a single repair RTP stream only protec=
ts a singe source RTP stream. But, considering the possibility of repair of=
 multiple source streams and different RTP Sessions, I think an explicit st=
atement that this SHOULD NOT be used for the payload format would be good t=
o include.

Proposed Change #1:  Add a reference to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i=
etf-avtext-rid-09 in the Informative References section.

Proposed Change #2:  Add Section 7.2, entitled "On the Use of the RTP Strea=
m Identifier Source Description", with the following text:

"The RTP Stream Identifier Source Description [I.-D.ietf-avtext-rid] is a f=
ormat that can be used to identify a single RTP source stream along with an=
 associated repair stream.  However, since this specification already defin=
es a method of source and repair stream identification that can enable prot=
ection of Multiple source streams with a single repair stream.  Therefore t=
he RTP Stream Idenfifer Source Description SHOULD NOT be used for the Flexi=
ble FEC payload format."=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Roni Even (A) 
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 3:03 AM
To: Magnus Westerlund ; Giridhar Mandyam 
Cc: Ali C. Begen ; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) ; Ben Campbell ; payload@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1=
0.txt

Hi,
Can you send these messages to the list.
I am wondering about ToP, I saw a previous question from Magnus about using=
 for example ToP 0,3 (FEC plus retransmission) not allowed by current defin=
ition in 5.1.1 but if I read section 4.2.2.3 first paragraph correctly it i=
s allowed I also assume that Magnus asked for the default value for ToP and=
 I did not see any text in 5.1.1 Roni Even=20


-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:32 AM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: Ali C. Begen; Mo Zanaty (mzanaty); Roni Even (A); ART ADs; Giridhar Man=
dyam
Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1=
0.txt

Hi,

I have responded on the first question. Although I don't understand why tha=
t went off-list.

I want to comment on the second paragraph below.

On 2018-12-05 19:36, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> On Dec 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Giridhar Mandyam =
 wrote:
>>
>> I believe his first comment on ToP needs to be addressed in the revision=
.  I believe his second comment is more problematic, because it refers to a=
 standards-track document that has not achieved RFC status yet (i.e. it may=
 undergo changes), and I am not sure it will help the document.
>>
>>
Considering that draft-ietf-avtext-rid is approved and stuck in RFC-editor =
missref state on cluster 238 I don't see this as a reason for not addressin=
g my raised issue.

The reason I do want to raise this is that flexfec could be used in a sub-s=
et of cases, but is not necessary in any cases as the linking to the source=
 flow is provided in the FLEXFEC RTP packet. Thus, for making it clear that=
 it is not needed, I think an explicit statement should be added to that ef=
fect. If we don't have a statement we might find situations where people wi=
ll attempt to apply it and gets into the confusion if they try the FEC mode=
 with multiple source SSRCs where it doesn't work.

Cheers=20

Magnus Westerlund=20

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Tue Dec 11 10:56:24 2018
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Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the IETF.

        Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Correction (FEC)
        Authors         : Mo Zanaty
                          Varun Singh
                          Ali Begen
                          Giridhar Mandyam
	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2018-12-11

Abstract:
   This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error
   Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved
   and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.
   These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair
   packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more
   source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a
   redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that
   carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in
   transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets
   that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes
   which are defined in this specification offer a good protection
   against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of
   decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this
   document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier
   specifications, and offer several improvements.  Due to these
   changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with
   earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this
   specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair
   packets.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Tue Dec 11 11:02:03 2018
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From: Giridhar Mandyam 
To: "payload@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
Thread-Index: AQHUkYNOwBwcl0RgWUyBftJvM248iKV547eQ
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Please note that I cleared out as many nits as I thought made sense.  Curre=
nt nit check showed zero errors, but a few warnings and comments.  I also u=
pdated the avtext-rid reference.

I modified the abstract slightly as inclusion of references violated RFC 73=
22, Sec. 4.3.   As a result, I removed those references from the abstract a=
nd added a sentence in the Introduction that provided the references.

-Giri Mandyam

-----Original Message-----
From: payload  On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.=
org
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 10:56 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: payload@ietf.org
Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.tx=
t


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the I=
ETF.

        Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Cor=
rection (FEC)
        Authors         : Mo Zanaty
                          Varun Singh
                          Ali Begen
                          Giridhar Mandyam
	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2018-12-11

Abstract:
   This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error
   Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved
   and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.
   These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair
   packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more
   source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a
   redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that
   carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in
   transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets
   that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes
   which are defined in this specification offer a good protection
   against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of
   decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this
   document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier
   specifications, and offer several improvements.  Due to these
   changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with
   earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this
   specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair
   packets.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem=
e-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-=
13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
payload mailing list
payload@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload


From nobody Wed Dec 12 09:07:50 2018
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From: Magnus Westerlund 
To: Giridhar Mandyam , "payload@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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Hi,=0A=
=0A=
Looking at the changes.=0A=
=0A=
Section 7.1.1:=0A=
Regarding: c=3DIN IP4 233.252.0.1/127=0A=
Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?=0A=
=0A=
Note that https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5737 do have unicast ranges=0A=
which you can pick an address from.=0A=
=0A=
I don't think there are any issues in itself with having a multicast=0A=
address here. However, people may get ideas, especially with both 7.1.1=0A=
and 7.1.2 using multicast.=0A=
=0A=
Otherwise it appears that you have addressed those ID-nits you need to=0A=
address.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers=0A=
=0A=
Magnus=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On 2018-12-11 20:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:=0A=
> Please note that I cleared out as many nits as I thought made sense.  Cur=
rent nit check showed zero errors, but a few warnings and comments.  I also=
 updated the avtext-rid reference.=0A=
>=0A=
> I modified the abstract slightly as inclusion of references violated RFC =
7322, Sec. 4.3.   As a result, I removed those references from the abstract=
 and added a sentence in the Introduction that provided the references.=0A=
>=0A=
> -Giri Mandyam=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: payload  On Behalf Of internet-drafts@iet=
f.org=0A=
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 10:56 AM=0A=
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org=0A=
> Cc: payload@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.=
txt=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.=0A=
> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the=
 IETF.=0A=
>=0A=
>         Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error C=
orrection (FEC)=0A=
>         Authors         : Mo Zanaty=0A=
>                           Varun Singh=0A=
>                           Ali Begen=0A=
>                           Giridhar Mandyam=0A=
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt=0A=
> 	Pages           : 41=0A=
> 	Date            : 2018-12-11=0A=
>=0A=
> Abstract:=0A=
>    This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error=0A=
>    Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved=0A=
>    and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.=0A=
>    These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair=
=0A=
>    packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more=0A=
>    source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a=0A=
>    redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that=0A=
>    carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in=0A=
>    transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets=
=0A=
>    that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes=
=0A=
>    which are defined in this specification offer a good protection=0A=
>    against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of=0A=
>    decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this=
=0A=
>    document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier=0A=
>    specifications, and offer several improvements.  Due to these=0A=
>    changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with=0A=
>    earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this=0A=
>    specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair=0A=
>    packets.=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0A=
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/=
=0A=
>=0A=
> There are also htmlized versions available at:=0A=
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13=0A=
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-sch=
eme-13=0A=
>=0A=
> A diff from the previous version is available at:=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem=
e-13=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A=
>=0A=
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=0A=
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> payload mailing list=0A=
> payload@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> payload mailing list=0A=
> payload@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
-- =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
=0A=


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From: Giridhar Mandyam 
To: Magnus Westerlund , "payload@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
Thread-Index: AQHUkYNOwBwcl0RgWUyBftJvM248iKV7Y5tw
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 18:40:54 +0000
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References: <154455457454.13143.14509030085765652926@ietfa.amsl.com>  
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Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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> Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?

2 reasons:

a) I didn't see a particular reason to have 2 different addresses in the ex=
amples.

b) The repair window in the example of Sec. 7.1.1 was small compared to the=
 example in Sec. 7.1.2, which seems appropriate for live media over multica=
st.  Therefore I felt that a multicast delivery address could be appropriat=
e.   {I did consider using localhost for the address (127.0.0.1), so as to =
provide a unicast address example that could represent an RTP proxy that in=
termediates between a multicast source and unicast receiver.  But this may =
imply restricted use of FLEX FEC as well, which is not desirable either.}

I can change one of the examples to something like 192.0.2.0/24, but I wond=
er if Sec. 7.1.2 may be more appropriate than 7.1.1.

-Giri

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Westerlund =20
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 9:08 AM
To: Giridhar Mandyam ; payload@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1=
3.txt

Hi,

Looking at the changes.

Section 7.1.1:
Regarding: c=3DIN IP4 233.252.0.1/127
Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?

Note that https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5737 do have unicast ranges which =
you can pick an address from.

I don't think there are any issues in itself with having a multicast addres=
s here. However, people may get ideas, especially with both 7.1.1 and 7.1.2=
 using multicast.

Otherwise it appears that you have addressed those ID-nits you need to addr=
ess.

Cheers

Magnus


On 2018-12-11 20:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:
> Please note that I cleared out as many nits as I thought made sense.  Cur=
rent nit check showed zero errors, but a few warnings and comments.  I also=
 updated the avtext-rid reference.
>
> I modified the abstract slightly as inclusion of references violated RFC =
7322, Sec. 4.3.   As a result, I removed those references from the abstract=
 and added a sentence in the Introduction that provided the references.
>
> -Giri Mandyam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: payload  On Behalf Of=20
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 10:56 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: payload@ietf.org
> Subject: [payload] I-D Action:=20
> draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the=
 IETF.
>
>         Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error C=
orrection (FEC)
>         Authors         : Mo Zanaty
>                           Varun Singh
>                           Ali Begen
>                           Giridhar Mandyam
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
> 	Pages           : 41
> 	Date            : 2018-12-11
>
> Abstract:
>    This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error
>    Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved
>    and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.
>    These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair
>    packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more
>    source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a
>    redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that
>    carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in
>    transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets
>    that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes
>    which are defined in this specification offer a good protection
>    against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of
>    decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this
>    document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier
>    specifications, and offer several improvements.  Due to these
>    changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with
>    earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this
>    specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair
>    packets.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem
> e/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-
> scheme-13
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-sche
> me-13
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> payload mailing list
> payload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>
> _______________________________________________
> payload mailing list
> payload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>

--=20

Magnus Westerlund=20

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Wed Dec 12 22:52:11 2018
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From: "Roni Even (A)" 
To: Magnus Westerlund 
CC: "payload@ietf.org" , Giridhar Mandyam 
Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
Thread-Index: AQHUkYNOv149ErSWI0aQKBTwcm8kJ6V660oAgAFRybA=
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 06:51:51 +0000
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References: <154455457454.13143.14509030085765652926@ietfa.amsl.com>   <92c0d62b5233440391e75ce5b9056016@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com>
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Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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Magnus,
Is it OK to have the multicast address and can I send the document to publi=
cation?

Regards
Roni
-----Original Message-----
From: payload [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Giridhar Mandy=
am
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:41 PM
To: Magnus Westerlund; payload@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1=
3.txt

> Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?

2 reasons:

a) I didn't see a particular reason to have 2 different addresses in the ex=
amples.

b) The repair window in the example of Sec. 7.1.1 was small compared to the=
 example in Sec. 7.1.2, which seems appropriate for live media over multica=
st.  Therefore I felt that a multicast delivery address could be appropriat=
e.   {I did consider using localhost for the address (127.0.0.1), so as to =
provide a unicast address example that could represent an RTP proxy that in=
termediates between a multicast source and unicast receiver.  But this may =
imply restricted use of FLEX FEC as well, which is not desirable either.}

I can change one of the examples to something like 192.0.2.0/24, but I wond=
er if Sec. 7.1.2 may be more appropriate than 7.1.1.

-Giri

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Westerlund 
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 9:08 AM
To: Giridhar Mandyam ; payload@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-1=
3.txt

Hi,

Looking at the changes.

Section 7.1.1:
Regarding: c=3DIN IP4 233.252.0.1/127
Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?

Note that https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5737 do have unicast ranges which =
you can pick an address from.

I don't think there are any issues in itself with having a multicast addres=
s here. However, people may get ideas, especially with both 7.1.1 and 7.1.2=
 using multicast.

Otherwise it appears that you have addressed those ID-nits you need to addr=
ess.

Cheers

Magnus


On 2018-12-11 20:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:
> Please note that I cleared out as many nits as I thought made sense.  Cur=
rent nit check showed zero errors, but a few warnings and comments.  I also=
 updated the avtext-rid reference.
>
> I modified the abstract slightly as inclusion of references violated RFC =
7322, Sec. 4.3.   As a result, I removed those references from the abstract=
 and added a sentence in the Introduction that provided the references.
>
> -Giri Mandyam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: payload  On Behalf Of=20
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 10:56 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: payload@ietf.org
> Subject: [payload] I-D Action:=20
> draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the=
 IETF.
>
>         Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error C=
orrection (FEC)
>         Authors         : Mo Zanaty
>                           Varun Singh
>                           Ali Begen
>                           Giridhar Mandyam
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
> 	Pages           : 41
> 	Date            : 2018-12-11
>
> Abstract:
>    This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error
>    Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved
>    and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.
>    These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair
>    packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more
>    source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a
>    redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that
>    carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in
>    transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets
>    that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes
>    which are defined in this specification offer a good protection
>    against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of
>    decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this
>    document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier
>    specifications, and offer several improvements.  Due to these
>    changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with
>    earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this
>    specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair
>    packets.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem
> e/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-
> scheme-13
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-sche
> me-13
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> payload mailing list
> payload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>
> _______________________________________________
> payload mailing list
> payload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>

--=20

Magnus Westerlund=20

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
payload mailing list
payload@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload


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From: Magnus Westerlund 
To: "Roni Even (A)" 
CC: "payload@ietf.org" , Giridhar Mandyam 
Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt
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On 2018-12-13 07:52, Roni Even (A) wrote:=0A=
> Magnus,=0A=
> Is it OK to have the multicast address and can I send the document to pub=
lication?=0A=
=0A=
Yes, it is. I don't think there are anything in this examples that are=0A=
not possible to work in multicast. It is just that I think a large part=0A=
of the usage of this specification will be in unicast.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers=0A=
=0A=
Magnus=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
> Regards=0A=
> Roni=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: payload [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Giridhar Man=
dyam=0A=
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:41 PM=0A=
> To: Magnus Westerlund; payload@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme=
-13.txt=0A=
>=0A=
>> Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?=0A=
> 2 reasons:=0A=
>=0A=
> a) I didn't see a particular reason to have 2 different addresses in the =
examples.=0A=
>=0A=
> b) The repair window in the example of Sec. 7.1.1 was small compared to t=
he example in Sec. 7.1.2, which seems appropriate for live media over multi=
cast.  Therefore I felt that a multicast delivery address could be appropri=
ate.   {I did consider using localhost for the address (127.0.0.1), so as t=
o provide a unicast address example that could represent an RTP proxy that =
intermediates between a multicast source and unicast receiver.  But this ma=
y imply restricted use of FLEX FEC as well, which is not desirable either.}=
=0A=
>=0A=
> I can change one of the examples to something like 192.0.2.0/24, but I wo=
nder if Sec. 7.1.2 may be more appropriate than 7.1.1.=0A=
>=0A=
> -Giri=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: Magnus Westerlund =0A=
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 9:08 AM=0A=
> To: Giridhar Mandyam ; payload@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme=
-13.txt=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi,=0A=
>=0A=
> Looking at the changes.=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 7.1.1:=0A=
> Regarding: c=3DIN IP4 233.252.0.1/127=0A=
> Isn't keeping it as an unicast address a better approach here?=0A=
>=0A=
> Note that https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5737 do have unicast ranges whic=
h you can pick an address from.=0A=
>=0A=
> I don't think there are any issues in itself with having a multicast addr=
ess here. However, people may get ideas, especially with both 7.1.1 and 7.1=
.2 using multicast.=0A=
>=0A=
> Otherwise it appears that you have addressed those ID-nits you need to ad=
dress.=0A=
>=0A=
> Cheers=0A=
>=0A=
> Magnus=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> On 2018-12-11 20:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:=0A=
>> Please note that I cleared out as many nits as I thought made sense.  Cu=
rrent nit check showed zero errors, but a few warnings and comments.  I als=
o updated the avtext-rid reference.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> I modified the abstract slightly as inclusion of references violated RFC=
 7322, Sec. 4.3.   As a result, I removed those references from the abstrac=
t and added a sentence in the Introduction that provided the references.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> -Giri Mandyam=0A=
>>=0A=
>> -----Original Message-----=0A=
>> From: payload  On Behalf Of =0A=
>> internet-drafts@ietf.org=0A=
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 10:56 AM=0A=
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org=0A=
>> Cc: payload@ietf.org=0A=
>> Subject: [payload] I-D Action: =0A=
>> draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc=
tories.=0A=
>> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of th=
e IETF.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>         Title           : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error =
Correction (FEC)=0A=
>>         Authors         : Mo Zanaty=0A=
>>                           Varun Singh=0A=
>>                           Ali Begen=0A=
>>                           Giridhar Mandyam=0A=
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.txt=0A=
>> 	Pages           : 41=0A=
>> 	Date            : 2018-12-11=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Abstract:=0A=
>>    This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error=
=0A=
>>    Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved=0A=
>>    and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP.=
=0A=
>>    These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair=
=0A=
>>    packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more=
=0A=
>>    source RTP streams.  These FEC repair packets are sent in a=0A=
>>    redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that=0A=
>>    carries the source packets.  RTP source packets that were lost in=0A=
>>    transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets=
=0A=
>>    that were received.  The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes=
=0A=
>>    which are defined in this specification offer a good protection=0A=
>>    against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of=
=0A=
>>    decent complexity.  The RTP payload formats that are defined in this=
=0A=
>>    document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier=0A=
>>    specifications, and offer several improvements.  Due to these=0A=
>>    changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with=0A=
>>    earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this=0A=
>>    specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair=0A=
>>    packets.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0A=
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem=
=0A=
>> e/=0A=
>>=0A=
>> There are also htmlized versions available at:=0A=
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13=0A=
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-=
=0A=
>> scheme-13=0A=
>>=0A=
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:=0A=
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-sche=
=0A=
>> me-13=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submis=
sion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=
=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=0A=
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=0A=
>>=0A=
>> _______________________________________________=0A=
>> payload mailing list=0A=
>> payload@ietf.org=0A=
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload=0A=
>>=0A=
>> _______________________________________________=0A=
>> payload mailing list=0A=
>> payload@ietf.org=0A=
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload=0A=
>>=0A=
=0A=
-- =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Fri Dec 14 22:43:40 2018
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [payload] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
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Roni Even has requested publication of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the PAYLOAD working group.

Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/


From nobody Tue Dec 18 21:00:55 2018
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Subject: [payload] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
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Hi,

This is my AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13.

The document is overall in pretty good shape. It=E2=80=99s more readable =
than I expected, given the subject matter. I would like to discuss my =
substantive comments/questions prior to IETF LC.

Thanks!

Ben.

*** Substantive***

General: Do I read correctly that this document can completely stand =
alone from RFC 6363? That is, the calculation of the protection stream =
and reconstruction of lost source packets is completely specified in =
this document? I don=E2=80=99t see that as a problem, but if it=E2=80=99s =
correct some introduction text to that effect would be helpful. Is a =
normative reference to 6363 even needed?

 If that=E2=80=99s _not_ the intent, then we need some discussion about =
where I went wrong in reading it.

=C2=A72: Unless there=E2=80=99s a strong reason otherwise, please use =
the updated key word boilerplate from RFC 8174.

=C2=A74.2: "The FEC repair packets MUST contain information that =
identifies the
source block...=E2=80=9D: The MUST seems more like a statement of fact =
than a normative requirement.

=C2=A74.2.1:

- There=E2=80=99s a number of 2119/8174 keywords in this section that =
seem more natural consequences of using RTP than new normative =
requirements. If that is the case, they shouldn=E2=80=99t use normative =
keywords unless in the form of direct quotes.

- 10th paragraph: "The repair streams=E2=80=99 SSRC=E2=80=99s CNAME =
SHOULD be
identical to the CNAME of the source RTP stream(s) that this
repair stream protects.=E2=80=9D
Why is the SHOULD not a MUST? What happens if it is violated?


- 11th paragraph: "such
scenarios, using the same CNAME for the source and repair RTP
streams means that the RTP Source and the FEC Source MUST share
the same CNAME (for this specific source-repair stream
association).=E2=80=9D

That MUST seems like a statement of fact.

=C2=A74.2.2: Please add a short explanation of why we need two different =
FEC packet formats. (Not counting the retransmission packet; the =
reasoning there is pretty obvious.)

=C2=A75.1.1 (and subsequent media type definitions)

- Please consider using the IESG (iesg@ietf.org) as the contact for =
further information. Working groups come and go, and authors change =
jobs. But someone on the IESG should (hopefully) always be able to find =
the right person,

- Change control:  In 5.1.1, shouldn=E2=80=99t that be the PAYLOAD =
working group (or it=E2=80=99s successor as delegated by the IESG...)

- Are these registrations really intended to be provisional?

=C2=A75.2.1, last bullet: "Any unknown option in the offer MUST be =
ignored and deleted from
the answer.=E2=80=9D: Is that a a new requirement specific to flex-fec, =
or just a normal offer/answer requirement?

=C2=A76.3.1.1, last paragraph: This is the only mention of =
=E2=80=9Cstaircase=E2=80=9D in the draft. Please add or cite a =
definition.

=C2=A78:
- "the potential impacts of using FEC MUST be considered=E2=80=9D is =
vague for a MUST. Who/what does this apply to? Is the implementor =
expected to know in advance whether their implementation will be used in =
a congestion-prone network? (If that is the intent, I suggest =
non-normative guidance.)
- =E2=80=9CIn a network-friendly implementation=E2=80=9D: Do you expect =
to see network-unfriendly implementations? Is that okay?

=C2=A79, last paragraph: What are the security implications of unused =
source-buffers? Is this a potential DoS vector?


*** Editorial ***

- Abstract: I=E2=80=99m not sure how to interpret the phrase =E2=80=9Cdece=
nt complexity=E2=80=9D. How much complexity qualifies as =E2=80=9Cdecent=E2=
=80=9D?

=C2=A71,

- first paragraph: Please add  or cite a definition for FEC. I=E2=80=99m =
not sure all readers will understand it the same way the authors do. (I =
was personally surprised to find discussion about reacting to feedback, =
since I thought of FEC as something used when no feedback channel was =
available.)

- 2nd paragraph: s/Redunadncy/Redundancy=E2=80=9D

=C2=A71.1.1:

- It would be helpful to describe what L and D represent here, or at =
least give a forward reference to the definition. (I note that a lot of =
text goes by before you get to the  definitions or the 2119 =
boilerplate.)

- Does 1-D and later 2-D stand for =E2=80=9Cone dimensional=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ctwo dimensional=E2=80=9D? If so, please expand  both first =
mention. (As it was, I got a bit confused by trying to conflate the =
=E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D in =E2=80=9C1-D=E2=80=9D with the =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D =
in =E2=80=9CLxD=E2=80=9D.)

=C2=A71.1.5:
- "assuming that each repair packet carries an equal
number of bytes carried by a source packet,=E2=80=9D
s/ =E2=80=9Cbytes carried=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Cbytes as carried=E2=80=9D

=C2=A74.2, last paragraph: Missing article before =E2=80=98Repair =
=E2=80=9CPayload=E2=80=9D =E2=80=98

=C2=A74.2.2, paragraph after Figure 10:
The text seems to be suggest there is one source packet protected by a =
given repair packet. IIUC, that=E2=80=99s not the case; a given FEC =
packet protects several source packets, doesn=E2=80=99t it?

=C2=A75.2, first paragraph: s/ "Applications that are using RTP =
transport=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9CApplications that use the RTP transport=E2=80=
=9D

=C2=A75.2.1, first bullet: I don=E2=80=99t know how to interpret =
=E2=80=9CSHOULD normally=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A75.2.2, first paragraph: Is there a reason to cite the obsolete RFC =
2326?

=C2=A76.3.3:
- list item 2: "The padding of octet 0 MUST be added at
the end of the bit string.=E2=80=9D: I assume that means =E2=80=9Cpadded =
with zeros=E2=80=9D, but it could be interpreted to mean =E2=80=9Cpad =
the zeroth byte=E2=80=9D.

- list item 5: Should =E2=80=9Cnum_recovered_until_this_iteration=E2=80=9D=
 say =E2=80=9Cbefore_this_iteration=E2=80=9D?

=C2=A79, last paragraph: I don=E2=80=99t understand the intent of the =
last sentence.






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From: Giridhar Mandyam 
To: Ben Campbell , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme.all@ietf.org" 
CC: "payload@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
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Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 01:38:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [payload] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
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Hi, thanks for the quick response! Comments inline. I removed sections =
that seem resolved.

Ben.

> On Dec 22, 2018, at 7:38 PM, Giridhar Mandyam =
 wrote:
>=20
> Thank you for the careful review.  Before submitting rev 14, I would =
like to get agreement on the following proposed changes.
> -Giri
>=20
>> General: Do I read correctly that this document can completely stand =
alone from RFC 6363? That is, the calculation of the protection stream =
and reconstruction of lost source packets is completely specified in =
this document? I don=E2=80=99t see that as a problem, but if it=E2=80=99s =
correct some introduction text to that effect would be helpful. Is a =
normative reference to 6363 even needed?
>=20
> FLEX FEC certainly was inspired by FEC FRAME, but the document can =
stand on its own.    Since several definitions are leveraged from RFC =
6363, I believe a normative reference is still appropriate.  My =
suggestion is to add one sentence to the last paragraph of Section 1.
>=20
> Proposed change:  Add "This document also leverages several =
definitions along with the basic source/repair header description from =
RFC 6363 in their application to the parity codes defined here.=E2=80=9D

That helps. I might suggest something along the lines of =E2=80=9CWhile =
this document fully defines the use of FEC to protect RTP streams, it =
also leverages...=E2=80=9D

[...]


>> =C2=A74.2.1:
>> - There=E2=80=99s a number of 2119/8174 keywords in this section that =
seem more natural consequences of using RTP than new normative =
requirements. If that is the case, they shouldn=E2=80=99t use normative =
keywords unless in the form of direct quotes.
>=20
> Apologies - I had trouble identifying such instances.  All instances =
of such keywords are related to requirements with respect to RFC 3550.  =
Do you have specific examples?

- definition of sequence number. Doesn=E2=80=99t RTP already require the =
sequence number to increment by one, and recommend the use of a random =
starting value?

- definition of time stamp: I initially thought that the SHALL reflected =
a requirement already in 3550, but now I realize that transmission time =
is not the same as sampling time.  So this one is probably okay.

- SSRC: 3550 already says SSRCs SHOULD be assigned randomly, so the =
requirement is a statement of fact as far as _this_ spec is concerned. =
(The text even mentions =E2=80=9Cas suggested by RFC 3350", although =
3550 does more than =E2=80=9Csuggest=E2=80=9D it.)

- "the collisions MUST be resolved as described in [RFC3550]=E2=80=9D : =
again, that follows naturally from using RTP. It does not define a new =
requirement.

>=20
>> - 10th paragraph: "The repair streams=E2=80=99 SSRC=E2=80=99s CNAME =
SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the source RTP stream(s) that this =
repair stream protects.=E2=80=9D Why is the SHOULD not a MUST? What =
happens if it is violated?
>=20
> Proposed change:  Agreed that the requirement makes more sense as a =
MUST.  Will change accordingly.

I concur with the change, but it is a material change. Please point it =
out to the WG in case anyone objects. (It may not be safe to assume =
people are reading this note in that level of detail, especially over =
the holidays :-)) To be clear, I don=E2=80=99t want to block progress of =
the draft over it; if anyone objects they can do so as part of the IETF =
last call.

[...]

>=20
>> =C2=A74.2.2: Please add a short explanation of why we need two =
different FEC packet formats. (Not counting the retransmission packet; =
the reasoning there is pretty obvious.)
>=20
> Proposed change:  Add additional sentence to first paragraph of Sec. =
4.2.2:  "Two of these variants are meant to describe different methods =
for deriving the source data from a source packet for a repair packet.  =
The third variant is for a straight retransmission of the source =
packet.=E2=80=9D

That=E2=80=99s useful, but it doesn=E2=80=99t explain _why_ we need two =
different methods.

>=20
>> =C2=A75.1.1 (and subsequent media type definitions) - Please consider =
using the IESG (iesg@ietf.org) as the contact for further information. =
Working groups come and go, and authors change jobs. But someone on the =
IESG should (hopefully) always be able to find the right person,
>=20
> TENTATIVE proposed change:  I am happy to swap out Varun's email for =
IESG, but this does not seem to be a widespread practice even for =
recently-published RFC's.  Can you confirm that this is now becoming a =
best practice for contact info regarding registries?

It=E2=80=99s been common of late. The reasoning is that the IESG email =
address is the least likely to change of any contact we might give.

>=20
>> - Change control:  In 5.1.1, shouldn=E2=80=99t that be the PAYLOAD =
working group (or it=E2=80=99s successor as delegated by the IESG...)
>=20
> Proposed change:  Change to "IETF Audio/Video Payloads Transport =
Payloads Working Group=E2=80=9D

I suggest adding =E2=80=9C... or it=E2=80=99s successor as delegated by =
the IESG.


>=20
>> - Are these registrations really intended to be provisional?
>=20
> At this point, no.
>=20
> Proposed change:  Eliminate mention of provisional registration for =
all media types.

I agree. However this is another material change that should be pointed =
out to the WG.

>=20
>> =C2=A75.2.1, last bullet: "Any unknown option in the offer MUST be =
ignored and deleted from the answer.=E2=80=9D: Is that a a new =
requirement specific to flex-fec, or just a normal offer/answer =
requirement?
>=20
> RFC 3264 Section 6 states
> 'For each "m=3D" line in the offer, there MUST be a corresponding "m=3D"=
 line in the answer.  The answer MUST contain exactly the same number of =
"m=3D" lines as the offer.  This allows for streams to be matched up =
based on their order.  This implies that if the offer contained zero =
"m=3D" lines, the answer MUST contain zero "m=3D" lines.'
>=20
> I don't believe this is normal offer/answer.  It is specific to FLEX =
FEC.

Okay.

[...]

>=20
>> - =E2=80=9CIn a network-friendly implementation=E2=80=9D: Do you =
expect to see network-unfriendly implementations? Is that okay?
>=20
> I don't view "network-friendly" as being a static condition.  There =
are scenarios where an FEC transmitter/receiver pair have negotiated a =
connection which is network-friendly for one application, but may not be =
for a different application.  There was a discussion about when FEC is =
appropriate and when it is not on the WebRTC mailing lists - see =
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2018Nov/0156.html.   =
"Network-unfriendly" implementations could conceivably occur when an FEC =
session has been negotiated between endpoints, but neither endpoint has =
assessed transmission conditions.

Is that a reasonably implementation? It sounds like a bug to me. (I =
probably could have phrased my question better as =E2=80=9C are =
network-unfriendly implementations ever acceptable=E2=80=9D.)

> In short, I think the text is fine as is.

I disagree. =E2=80=9CNetwork-friendly=E2=80=9D is a condition that =
triggers a SHOULD. I think there=E2=80=99s a high chance you will see =
different implementors interpret that condition differently. If the =
intent is to give normative guidance, there needs to be enough =
information to avoid that. OTOH, if the intent is to point out things an =
implementer needs to think about, then the normative SHOULD may not be =
appropriate.

>=20
>> =C2=A79, last paragraph: What are the security implications of unused =
source-buffers? Is this a potential DoS vector?
>=20
> It could be.  Unused source buffers combined with potentially large =
packet size (e.g. for bundled protection) could eventually result in a =
lack of resources (e.g. memory) in an endpoint.
>=20
> Proposed additional clarifying text: Following  "Given that FLEX FEC =
enables the protection of multiple source streams, there exists the =
possibility that multiple source buffers may be created that may not be =
used" add  "An attacker could leverage unused source buffers to as a =
means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC endpoint.=E2=80=9D

Works for me.

[...]

>=20
>> - 2nd paragraph: s/Redunadncy/Redundancy=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Proposed change:   "Redunadncy" changed to "Redundancy".  Thank you =
for catching this.
>=20
>> =C2=A71.1.1: - It would be helpful to describe what L and D represent =
here, or at least give a forward reference to the definition. (I note =
that a lot of text goes by before you get to the  definitions or the =
2119 boilerplate.)
>=20
> Current text states:  " Consider a group of D x L source packets that =
have sequence numbers starting from 1 running to D x L, and a repair =
packet is generated by applying the XOR operation to every L consecutive =
packets as sketched in Figure 3."
>=20
> I don't think that there is a further definition required.  However, =
an addition sentence could follow the above description to clarify.
>=20
> Proposed text:  "In general, D and L represent values that describe =
how packets are grouped together for parity code generation when =
interleaving all D x L source packets.=E2=80=9D

That=E2=80=99s kind of circular explanation. I was just looking for =
something along the lines of =E2=80=98 =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CL=E2=
=80=9D represent the depth and length, respectively=E2=80=9D.

[...]
>=20
>> =C2=A74.2.2, paragraph after Figure 10: The text seems to be suggest =
there is one source packet protected by a given repair packet. IIUC, =
that=E2=80=99s not the case; a given FEC packet protects several source =
packets, doesn=E2=80=99t it?
>=20
> The text reads in part "... includes repair of everything following =
the fixed 12-byte RTP header of the source packet ...".
>=20
> "... everything following ..." implies more than just a single source =
RTP packet.

Let=E2=80=99s say for argument that the repair packet protects 2 source =
packets. Is the 12-byte RTP header of the 2nd packet protected?

(Even if the answer is yes, it would be helpful to say " ... and =
subsequent packets...")

[...]

>> =C2=A75.2.2, first paragraph: Is there a reason to cite the obsolete =
RFC 2326?
>=20
> This also came up as part of the I.-D. nits.  I decided to leave the =
2326 reference in because I did not want to imply that FLEX FEC cannot =
be used for RTSP 1.0, and RTSP 2.0 is not backwards-compatible.
>=20

I suggest adding a few words to explain that.

[...]

>=20
>> =C2=A79, last paragraph: I don=E2=80=99t understand the intent of the =
last sentence.
>=20
> Originally suggested in =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/payload/AIHw5DSABEJLa6lSOLryLdI0eBk.=
  The application source data may not be perfectly matched with FLEX FEC =
source partitioning.  If this is the case, there is a possibility for =
unprotected source data if, for instance, the FLEX FEC implementation =
discards data that does not fit perfectly into its source processing =
requirements.

That explanation is more clear than the text in the draft. I suggest =
including it.

[...]

--Apple-Mail=_325D7088-B091-467D-BB22-7876C8752C0C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Hi, =
thanks for the quick response! Comments inline. I removed sections that =
seem resolved.

Ben.

On Dec 22, 2018, at 7:38 PM, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:

Thank =
you for the careful review.  Before submitting rev 14, I would like =
to get agreement on the following proposed changes.
-Giri
General: =
Do I read correctly that this document can completely stand alone from =
RFC 6363? That is, the calculation of the protection stream and =
reconstruction of lost source packets is completely specified in this =
document? I don=E2=80=99t see that as a problem, but if it=E2=80=99s =
correct some introduction text to that effect would be helpful. Is a =
normative reference to 6363 even needed?

FLEX FEC certainly was inspired by FEC FRAME, but the =
document can stand on its own.    Since several =
definitions are leveraged from RFC 6363, I believe a normative reference =
is still appropriate.  My suggestion is to add one sentence to the =
last paragraph of Section 1.

Proposed =
change:  Add "This document also leverages several definitions =
along with the basic source/repair header description from RFC 6363 in =
their application to the parity codes defined =
here.=E2=80=9D

That=
 helps. I might suggest something along the lines of =E2=80=9CWhile this =
document fully defines the use of FEC to protect RTP streams, it also =
leverages...=E2=80=9D

[...]


=C2=A74.2.1:
- There=E2=80=99s a number of 2119/8174 keywords in this =
section that seem more natural consequences of using RTP than new =
normative requirements. If that is the case, they shouldn=E2=80=99t use =
normative keywords unless in the form of direct quotes.

Apologies - I had trouble =
identifying such instances.  All instances of such keywords are =
related to requirements with respect to RFC 3550.  Do you have =
specific examples?

- definition of sequence number. Doesn=E2=80=99t =
RTP already require the sequence number to increment by one, and =
recommend the use of a random starting value?

- definition of time stamp: I initially thought =
that the SHALL reflected a requirement already in 3550, but now I =
realize that transmission time is not the same as sampling time. =
 So this one is probably okay.

- =
SSRC: 3550 already says SSRCs SHOULD be assigned randomly, so the =
requirement is a statement of fact as far as _this_ spec is concerned. =
(The text even mentions =E2=80=9Cas suggested by RFC 3350", although =
3550 does more than =E2=80=9Csuggest=E2=80=9D it.)

- "the collisions MUST be resolved as described in [RFC3550]=E2=80=9D : again, =
that follows naturally from using RTP. It does not define a new =
requirement.


- 10th paragraph: "The =
repair streams=E2=80=99 SSRC=E2=80=99s CNAME SHOULD be identical to the =
CNAME of the source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects.=E2=80=9D=
 Why is the SHOULD not a MUST? What happens if it is violated?

Proposed change:  Agreed =
that the requirement makes more sense as a MUST.  Will change =
accordingly.

I concur with the change, but it is a material =
change. Please point it out to the WG in case anyone objects. (It may =
not be safe to assume people are reading this note in that level of =
detail, especially over the holidays :-)) To be clear, I don=E2=80=99t =
want to block progress of the draft over it; if anyone objects they can =
do so as part of the IETF last call.

[...]


=C2=A74.2.2: Please add a short explanation of =
why we need two different FEC packet formats. (Not counting the =
retransmission packet; the reasoning there is pretty obvious.)

Proposed change:  Add =
additional sentence to first paragraph of Sec. 4.2.2:  "Two of =
these variants are meant to describe different methods for deriving the =
source data from a source packet for a repair packet.  The third =
variant is for a straight retransmission of the source =
packet.=E2=80=9D

That=E2=80=99s useful, but it doesn=E2=80=99t =
explain _why_ we need two different methods.


=C2=A75.1.1=
 (and subsequent media type definitions) - Please consider using the =
IESG (iesg@ietf.org) as =
the contact for further information. Working groups come and go, and =
authors change jobs. But someone on the IESG should (hopefully) always =
be able to find the right person,

TENTATIVE proposed change:  I am happy to swap out =
Varun's email for IESG, but this does not seem to be a widespread =
practice even for recently-published RFC's.  Can you confirm that =
this is now becoming a best practice for contact info regarding =
registries?

It=E2=80=99s been common of late. The reasoning is =
that the IESG email address is the least likely to change of any contact =
we might give.


- Change control:  In 5.1.1, shouldn=E2=80=99=
t that be the PAYLOAD working group (or it=E2=80=99s successor as =
delegated by the IESG...)

Proposed change:  Change to "IETF Audio/Video Payloads =
Transport Payloads Working Group=E2=80=9D
I suggest adding =E2=80=9C... or it=E2=80=99s =
successor as delegated by the IESG.



- Are =
these registrations really intended to be provisional?

At this point, no.

Proposed change:  Eliminate mention of =
provisional registration for all media types.

I =
agree. However this is another material change that should be pointed =
out to the WG.


=C2=A75.2.1, last bullet: "Any unknown option =
in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from the answer.=E2=80=9D: Is =
that a a new requirement specific to flex-fec, or just a normal =
offer/answer requirement?

RFC =
3264 Section 6 states
'For each "m=3D" line in the offer, =
there MUST be a corresponding "m=3D" line in the answer.  The =
answer MUST contain exactly the same number of "m=3D" lines as the =
offer.  This allows for streams to be matched up based on their =
order.  This implies that if the offer contained zero "m=3D" lines, =
the answer MUST contain zero "m=3D" lines.'

I=
 don't believe this is normal offer/answer.  It is specific to FLEX =
FEC.

Okay.

[...]


- =E2=80=9CIn a =
network-friendly implementation=E2=80=9D: Do you expect to see =
network-unfriendly implementations? Is that okay?

I don't view "network-friendly" =
as being a static condition.  There are scenarios where an FEC =
transmitter/receiver pair have negotiated a connection which is =
network-friendly for one application, but may not be for a different =
application.  There was a discussion about when FEC is appropriate =
and when it is not on the WebRTC mailing lists - see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2018Nov/0156=
.html.   "Network-unfriendly" implementations could =
conceivably occur when an FEC session has been negotiated between =
endpoints, but neither endpoint has assessed transmission conditions. =


Is =
that a reasonably implementation? It sounds like a bug to me. (I =
probably could have phrased my question better as =E2=80=9C are =
network-unfriendly implementations ever acceptable=E2=80=9D.)

In short, I think the text is fine as is.  

I =
disagree. =E2=80=9CNetwork-friendly=E2=80=9D is a condition that =
triggers a SHOULD. I think there=E2=80=99s a high chance you will see =
different implementors interpret that condition differently. If the =
intent is to give normative guidance, there needs to be enough =
information to avoid that. OTOH, if the intent is to point out things an =
implementer needs to think about, then the normative SHOULD may not be =
appropriate.


=C2=A79, last paragraph: What are the security implications =
of unused source-buffers? Is this a potential DoS vector?

It could be.  Unused source =
buffers combined with potentially large packet size (e.g. for bundled =
protection) could eventually result in a lack of resources (e.g. memory) =
in an endpoint.

Proposed additional =
clarifying text: Following  "Given that FLEX FEC enables the =
protection of multiple source streams, there exists the possibility that =
multiple source buffers may be created that may not be used" add =
 "An attacker could leverage unused source buffers to as a means of =
occupying memory in a FLEX FEC =
endpoint.=E2=80=9D

Works for me.

[...]


- 2nd paragraph: s/Redunadncy/Redundancy=E2=80=9D=


Proposed change: =
  "Redunadncy" changed to "Redundancy".  Thank you for =
catching this.

=C2=A71.1.1: - It would be helpful to describe what L and D =
represent here, or at least give a forward reference to the definition. =
(I note that a lot of text goes by before you get to the =
 definitions or the 2119 boilerplate.)
Current text states:  " Consider a group of D x L =
source packets that have sequence numbers starting from 1 running to D x =
L, and a repair packet is generated by applying the XOR operation to =
every L consecutive packets as sketched in Figure 3."

I don't think that there is a further definition required. =
 However, an addition sentence could follow the above description =
to clarify. 

Proposed text:  "In =
general, D and L represent values that describe how packets are grouped =
together for parity code generation when interleaving all D x L source =
packets.=E2=80=9D

That=E2=80=99s kind of circular explanation. I was =
just looking for something along the lines of =E2=80=98 =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D=
 and =E2=80=9CL=E2=80=9D represent the depth and length, =
respectively=E2=80=9D.

[...]

=C2=A74.2.2, paragraph after Figure 10: The text seems to be =
suggest there is one source packet protected by a given repair packet. =
IIUC, that=E2=80=99s not the case; a given FEC packet protects several =
source packets, doesn=E2=80=99t it?

The text reads in part "... includes repair of everything =
following the fixed 12-byte RTP header of the source packet ...". =
 

"... everything following ..." =
implies more than just a single source RTP packet.  

Let=E2=80=
=99s say for argument that the repair packet protects 2 source packets. =
Is the 12-byte RTP header of the 2nd packet protected?

(Even if the answer is yes, it would be helpful to =
say " ... and subsequent packets...")

[...]

=C2=A75.2.2, first paragraph: Is there a reason to cite the =
obsolete RFC 2326?

This also =
came up as part of the I.-D. nits.  I decided to leave the 2326 =
reference in because I did not want to imply that FLEX FEC cannot be =
used for RTSP 1.0, and RTSP 2.0 is not backwards-compatible.


I suggest adding a few words to explain =
that.

[...]


=C2=A79, =
last paragraph: I don=E2=80=99t understand the intent of the last =
sentence.

Originally suggested =
in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/payload/AIHw5DSABEJLa6lSO=
LryLdI0eBk.  The application source data may not be perfectly =
matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning.  If this is the case, =
there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance, the =
FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly into =
its source processing requirements.

That =
explanation is more clear than the text in the draft. I suggest =
including it.

[...]
=

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From: Giridhar Mandyam 
To: Ben Campbell 
CC: "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme.all@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-13
Thread-Index: AQHUl1fULReBgVYI4UmKkArmKMKaIqWIRViAgAQO2gCABOFlEA==
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 16:40:36 +0000
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--_000_0341aad5c46241edbba503e834f0d098NASANEXM01Cnaqualcommco_--


From nobody Sat Dec 29 22:36:24 2018
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From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool 
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Cc: ron.even.tlv@gmail.com, ben@nostrum.com, payload-chairs@ietf.org, payload@ietf.org
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Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 22:36:22 -0800
Archived-At: 
Subject: [payload] payload - Not having a session at IETF 104
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Roni Even, a chair of the payload working group, indicated that the payload working group does not plan to hold a session at IETF 104.

This message was generated and sent by the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool.