From nobody Sun Aug 6 13:42:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949691320BE for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 13:42:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WIRg32g2U_DA for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com (mail-qt0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 994AF13207A for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 16so31448056qtz.4 for ; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xKOLoEWwsJAwh1NiRNbbvzuE+VMMunPkfbpDFHi7voQ=; b=REVvRVZaQjbXYzr3h7gP0D8ksu37GvFF+Dua9q4DXvPgUJXehbsclKMPZkBZlZ2swc 2bxIysPCMD88ianRBRWwIGXi0o1fcaILTyh0EcJjKPoibBpgziZ4kJUSy/ONdFDQfv4b 8RQXJmIlXaacmWq6hhOJCB4rOI7UIe5ukid5JQ4GhmD3WVo1j5FQYBtBhrnQcYmazjTl 6yBYKsg+hiTZU6oBw2yeJ/U+KHNXy68Q6/z9Zt9RgSkhWccLAYRakLOX2GZUCIm7BuSE 8sl1Ku8JiNxqujtDSa268lNYA1iN+ZrsNWZ72RJKYhC44RK+uvgM1QHNVPblCk850QSG d/4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xKOLoEWwsJAwh1NiRNbbvzuE+VMMunPkfbpDFHi7voQ=; b=ddhbXxyRAQMbx7hDpvjkxT101ijflMjdd8UF3wZqKMucbIj0GmcCOKXnDtVqXX3XkL rCLiD8MwNT6Ib9ch1kefcDM8KmwsDcfDPBDJlIOaFxC+NhD1DnsSmTHk5A923VoiUHku 9TP6OUIYbG47qFSlmscTTiUq3y23QrIjMghudndi+vbWcSJUIYJgAQ38WuA4V0ns8KaZ JoEGCWGpRhsNYUiX0c0cxyMgf+KagF/B2QZbevB+LUnDsp2DSUvpNhsXVq1eX7oz6ldv Sqp8LevQEdF7uBr1W72a7sTb2mu5WC558KQKc9wjdvoYIIC7b2oaoWeSzK8p145bfldW /YMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jp2HGgK2ga+MD2CoFN5l0LK7vPd3ruPt4WObGKA8iAyGvWchsI gNaljaoMVJ4aC3sfk9l+W+aWt0vq7qgh X-Received: by 10.200.3.135 with SMTP id t7mr11908428qtg.216.1502052145596; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 13:42:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.130.196 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 13:42:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 13:42:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4030435c300928beb05561bc46e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2017 20:42:29 -0000 --f4030435c300928beb05561bc46e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello All Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus for the following 2 items. 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. 2. Includes all the below - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to read DTMF info sent as media Thanks for your inputs. Cheers Chairs On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > > Hi All, > > At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and there > was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to gather > any additional inputs on the list. > So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the room, > please send them to the list by *4th August.* > > First Consensus Call: > Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. > > Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as a > singleton: > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair > on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to > read DTMF info sent as media > > Here are the notes from the meeting: > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt > > Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf > > > Thanks > Perc Chairs > --f4030435c300928beb05561bc46e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello All

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Following up on = the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have considered all the inputs= received from the people in the room and the inputs from people on the ema= il list and determined there is consensus for the following 2 items.
<= div>
1. =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify th= e 'M' (marker) bit.

2.= Includes all the below
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Move the OHB infor= mation from header extension to payload
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - RT= X, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the do= uble-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - DTMF :=C2=A0PERC will only support E2E DTMF= and MD will not be able to read DTMF info sent as media= =C2=A0= =C2=A0

Thanks for your inputs.=

Cheers
Chairs

On = Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com= > wrote:
=
Hi All,

At th= e IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and there was a s= trong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to gather any addit= ional inputs on the list.=C2=A0
So, i= f there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the room, pleas= e send them to the list by 4th August.

First Consensus Call:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD = to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.

<= div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-seri= f;font-size:16px">Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as = a singleton:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Move the OHB information from= header extension to payload
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - RTX, RED and = FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the double-encryp= ted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 - DTMF :=C2=A0PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wi= ll not be able to read DTMF info sent as media=C2=A0= =C2=A0<= /div>

Here are the notes from the meeting:=C2=A0<= /font>
Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals= :=C2=A0

--f4030435c300928beb05561bc46e-- From nobody Sun Aug 6 14:26:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6019132043 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 14:26:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H7A94gSp9ADa for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68394131F19 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id m85so54953018wma.0 for ; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GQ7QAvAeZrf3LMGxwKlCk76iybxFhIJkO2sRlyea4jo=; b=pDS5NWJA8166Ub1q/YoNxhWcGg9WtdCFakhwZL69CO2SRv3nFvPgPxUdMItUPTa1d+ RBHunuZjxqnAKuDzflcKtD3eeJynWnYB5Gb11qdNsF/VDaVkLBNI/G3pNWj62tA12KFn Tg3bZ34NyZc8XWUljwxmW8pzcMucTxWFWLDl/7/Uw5MZn7IEjnyw5gyqaw5coC7TK1i4 sOV918RwNwZWc0DHZaIEPBKxsLrdUmqCGiJZn6fFV1YgQgUFvTfv/g4PDsyqd4nY4vLh tWGzlHSAhyj6jkRiJru2FN52+lwVXAjg86q16zsC3yf42M4oeyr8NOzIOJhoq8DOyOZg 1pHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GQ7QAvAeZrf3LMGxwKlCk76iybxFhIJkO2sRlyea4jo=; b=V9WQyhmY6Qjn7xmsfrXmiFCkwiKtTx5Qjs8En6vHsb3OlC2jkSZnoXlnmg/aURn/Zn HEzdyTHz8f2to2y6klBk4ctFR00N9zjAnrklC5cxqlDjotNYFF+iSxjdyo6+CKSSJGKY rH7js72VFiYQYnc63jAJdAUxZIKAZyTrib6J1HbBfGnjOglyPhp8L0MV25x2dWceioEx f1MN07F89qbvwgBVXRDxn7GJ3NhacA8Qzhf2WIjEmvmeDgbD/hIo4qlcvPH6/cq/KgsF yflWa+J7OUC31+FJTYRRTemmDE4SCxV6hg5jGPfJs+pYUO2yRggPSU/+euKALq2LGUr5 aQ1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113vo9c00H2HTgzmu+p8XEBunHJ2z0ImTzn8Mg6eUBmF/pZZiKfd tjjfYmkaWr+S+5WX3CwNR6vOIp4XhTHd X-Received: by 10.80.226.67 with SMTP id o3mr9370161edl.65.1502054811579; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.168.69 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 14:26:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Emil Ivov Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 16:26:30 -0500 Message-ID: To: Suhas Nandakumar Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2017 21:26:56 -0000 Come again? Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > Hello All > > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus for > the following 2 items. > > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. > > 2. Includes all the below > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to read > DTMF info sent as media > > Thanks for your inputs. > > Cheers > Chairs > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and there >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to gather any >> additional inputs on the list. >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the room, >> please send them to the list by 4th August. >> >> First Consensus Call: >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >> >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as a >> singleton: >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to >> read DTMF info sent as media >> >> Here are the notes from the meeting: >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt >> >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf >> >> >> Thanks >> Perc Chairs > > > > _______________________________________________ > Perc mailing list > Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc > -- https://jitsi.org From nobody Sun Aug 6 23:58:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1029A1296C9 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 23:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6928127ABE for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 04:58:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GOOF-lm5uj76 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 04:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [75.101.130.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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multipart/alternative; boundary="----MYY0O49IHYJWW432JINP343LTNGNYI" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: perc@ietf.org, Roni Even , Suhas Nandakumar , "perc@ietf.org" From: "Paul E. Jones" Message-ID: <522888F9-8AC8-47CF-BA0F-A820ABEB9EC1@packetizer.com> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.1 (dublin.packetizer.com [10.165.122.250]); Mon, 07 Aug 2017 07:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:58:58 -0000 ------MYY0O49IHYJWW432JINP343LTNGNYI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roni, That particular issue is least concerning to me, since all endpoints I kno= w won't play DTMF into a user's ear=2E AFAIK, only users over the PSTN mig= ht be affected, but then that suggests there's a gateway in the path and PE= RC is no longer securing the conference E2E=2E Thus, gateways need to stay = out of PERC conferences=2E Paul -------- Original Message -------- From: Roni Even Sent: August 7, 2017 2:57:30 AM EDT To: Suhas Nandakumar , "perc@ietf=2Eorg" Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 Hi, I do not have a strong opinion but I am a bit puzzled about the DTMF issue= =2E My understating so far was that the MD is the media distribution for a mul= tipoint conferencing application=2E Typically in this cases the DTMF is for= the multipoint application and not to the conference participants (The DTM= F may even be suppressed by the conferencing bride) =2E So how will such application work without DTMF if it depended on it? I thi= nk that there should be some text about it (use DTMF in the signaling when = there is a PERC MD e=2Eg=2E SIP INFO?) Roni From: Perc [mailto:perc-bounces@ietf=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Suhas Nandakumar Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=90 06 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98 20= 17 23:42 To: perc@ietf=2Eorg Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 Hello All Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have consi= dered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the inputs fr= om people on the email list and determined there is consensus for the follo= wing 2 items=2E 1=2E Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit=2E 2=2E Includes all the below - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair = on the double-encrypted packet=2E (Option 'A' in the slides) - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to re= ad DTMF info sent as media Thanks for your inputs=2E Cheers Chairs On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: Hi All, At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and there w= as a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to gather any= additional inputs on the list=2E So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the room,= please send them to the list by 4th August=2E First Consensus Call: Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit=2E Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as a s= ingleton: - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair = on the double-encrypted packet=2E (Option 'A' in the slides) - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to re= ad DTMF info sent as media Here are the notes from the meeting: https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01=2Etxt Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01= =2Epdf Thanks Perc Chairs ------MYY0O49IHYJWW432JINP343LTNGNYI Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roni,

That particular issue is least concerning to me, since all endpoints I kno= w won't play DTMF into a user's ear=2E AFAIK, only users over the = PSTN might be affected, but then that suggests there's a gateway in the= path and PERC is no longer securing the conference E2E=2E Thus, gateways n= eed to stay out of PERC conferences=2E

Paul

From: Roni Even <roni=2Eeven@huawei=2Ecom>
Sent: August 7, 2017 2:57:30 AM EDT
To: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail=2Ecom>, "perc@ietf= =2Eorg" <perc@ietf=2Eorg>
Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from I= ETF 99

Hi,

I do not have a strong= opinion but I am a bit puzzled about the DTMF issue=2E

My understating so far= was that the MD is the media distribution for a multipoint conferencing ap= plication=2E Typically in this cases the DTMF is for the multipoint application and not to the conference participants (The DTMF may even be = suppressed by the conferencing bride) =2E

So how will such appli= cation work without DTMF if it depended on it? I think that there should be= some text about it (use DTMF in the signaling when there is a PERC MD e=2Eg=2E SIP INFO?)

 

Roni

 

From: Per= c [mailto:perc-bounces@ietf=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Suhas Nandakumar
Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=90 = 06 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98 2017 23:42
To: perc@ietf=2Eorg
Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from I= ETF 99

 

Hello All

 

   Following up on the consensus confirma= tion email, the chairs have considered all the inputs received from the peo= ple in the room and the inputs from people on the email list and determined= there is consensus for the following 2 items=2E

 

1=2E   Allow MD to modify the 'M' (mar= ker) bit=2E

 

2=2E Includes all the be= low

    - Move the= OHB information from header extension to payload

    - RTX, RED= and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the double-e= ncrypted packet=2E (Option 'A' in the slides)

<= /p>

    - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF an= d MD will not be able to read DTMF info sent as media  = ;

 

Thanks for your inputs= =2E

 

Cheers

=

Chairs

=

 

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar = <suhasietf@gm= ail=2Ecom> wrote:

 

Hi All,

 

At the IETF 99 meeting, = we took hum on the following proposals and there was a strong consensus in = the room in their favor, but we wish to gather any additional inputs on the list=2E 

So, if there are any additional inputs that= was not expressed in the room, please send them to the list by 4th August=2E

 

First Consensus Call:

   Allow MD to= modify the 'M' (marker) bit=2E

 

Second Consensus called = made includes all the following 3 proposals as a singleton:<= p>

    - Move the= OHB information from header extension to payload

    - RTX, RED= and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the double-e= ncrypted packet=2E (Option 'A' in the slides)

<= /p>

    - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF an= d MD will not be able to read DTMF info sent as media  = ;

 

Here are the notes from = the meeting: 

 

Here are the slides corr= esponding to the above proposals : 

 

 

Thanks

=

Perc Chairs

 

------MYY0O49IHYJWW432JINP343LTNGNYI-- From nobody Mon Aug 7 05:34:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47543127ABE for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 05:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QBUSJbOGQRek for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8059C131CA2 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 05:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSW90740; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:34:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.210) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:34:24 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.170]) by DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 20:33:41 +0800 From: Roni Even To: "Paul E. Jones" , "perc@ietf.org" , Suhas Nandakumar , "perc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 Thread-Index: AQHTD3SNuTkKn4LvrkOr/mN0pIclR6J40dnA Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 12:33:40 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1A99@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1970@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <522888F9-8AC8-47CF-BA0F-A820ABEB9EC1@packetizer.com> In-Reply-To: <522888F9-8AC8-47CF-BA0F-A820ABEB9EC1@packetizer.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.51] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1A99DGGEMM506MBXchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.59885E54.0006, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.170, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 805b97350513b7a10564360bdb5abacb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:34:33 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1A99DGGEMM506MBXchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGF1bCwNCkkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCBEVE1GIGlzIG5vdCB0byB0aGUgZW5kIHVzZXIuIE9uIHNl Y29uZCB0aG91Z2h0IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBpZiBEVE1GIHdpbGwgYmUgdXNlZCBieSB0aGUgY29u ZmVyZW5jZSB0aGFuIHRoZXJlIG1heSBiZSBhIHNlcGFyYXRlIGVudGl0eSB0aGF0IHdpbGwgaGFu ZGxlIERUTUYuIEFuIGV4YW1wbGUgaXMgd2hlbiB5b3UgY2FsbCBhIGNvbmZlcmVuY2UgZGlhbC1p biBudW1iZXIgYW5kIHRoZSBicmlkZ2Ugd2lsbCBhc2sgZm9yIGNvbmZlcmVuY2UgbnVtYmVyIGFu ZCBwYXNzd29yZCB1c2luZyB2b2ljZSBtZXNzYWdlcy4NCkkgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBtYXkgaGFwcGVu 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HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 07:07:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1A99@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1970@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <522888F9-8AC8-47CF-BA0F-A820ABEB9EC1@packetizer.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1A99@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Stephen Botzko Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:07:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: Roni Even Cc: "Paul E. Jones" , "perc@ietf.org" , Suhas Nandakumar Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11c15ed20a8af805562a5d8d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 14:07:28 -0000 --001a11c15ed20a8af805562a5d8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> [roni]the bridge will ask for conference number and password using voice messages I'm not seeing how perc's encryption (as proposed in Prague) supports either audio prompts from the server to the client or DTMF from the client to the server. If there is an adjunct web interface for control, that might not matter - since audio prompts can be streamed over that interface if that is desired, and the client can easily use http for replies. That approach separates the conference control plane from the media distribution plane. Though in your use case, another option is to allow an initial media connection to the server that doesn't use double for the purpose of voice/response - and once the user selects their conference, then that media is torn down and replaced by media encrypted with the conference keys. That works for conference setup, but not other use cases (announcing new attendees joining the conference, or warning that the conference ending time is approaching for example). Stephen On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi Paul, > > I agree that DTMF is not to the end user. On second thought I think that > if DTMF will be used by the conference than there may be a separate entit= y > that will handle DTMF. An example is when you call a conference dial-in > number and the bridge will ask for conference number and password using > voice messages. > > I think this may happen also in Webex when you want to join using your > phone to dial in, you get prompted for conference ID > > Roni > > > > *From:* Paul E. Jones [mailto:paulej@packetizer.com] > *Sent:* =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=91 07 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98= 2017 14:59 > *To:* perc@ietf.org; Roni Even; Suhas Nandakumar; perc@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF > 99 > > > > Roni, > > That particular issue is least concerning to me, since all endpoints I > know won't play DTMF into a user's ear. AFAIK, only users over the PSTN > might be affected, but then that suggests there's a gateway in the path a= nd > PERC is no longer securing the conference E2E. Thus, gateways need to sta= y > out of PERC conferences. > > Paul > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Roni Even > *Sent:* August 7, 2017 2:57:30 AM EDT > *To:* Suhas Nandakumar , "perc@ietf.org" < > perc@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF > 99 > > > > Hi, > > I do not have a strong opinion but I am a bit puzzled about the DTMF issu= e. > > My understating so far was that the MD is the media distribution for a > multipoint conferencing application. Typically in this cases the DTMF is > for the multipoint application and not to the conference participants (Th= e > DTMF may even be suppressed by the conferencing bride) . > > So how will such application work without DTMF if it depended on it? I > think that there should be some text about it (use DTMF in the signaling > when there is a PERC MD e.g. SIP INFO?) > > > > Roni > > > > *From:* Perc [mailto:perc-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *Suhas Nandakumar > *Sent:* =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=90 06 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98= 2017 23:42 > *To:* perc@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF > 99 > > > > Hello All > > > > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus fo= r > the following 2 items. > > > > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. > > > > 2. Includes all the below > > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload > > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair > on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) > > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to > read DTMF info sent as media > > > > Thanks for your inputs. > > > > Cheers > > Chairs > > > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and there > was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to gather > any additional inputs on the list. > > So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the room= , > please send them to the list by *4th August.* > > > > First Consensus Call: > > Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. > > > > Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as a > singleton: > > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload > > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair > on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) > > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to > read DTMF info sent as media > > > > Here are the notes from the meeting: > > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt > > > > Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : > > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf > > > > > > Thanks > > Perc Chairs > > > > _______________________________________________ > Perc mailing list > Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc > > --001a11c15ed20a8af805562a5d8d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> [roni]the bridge will ask for co= nference number and password using voice messages
= I'm not seeing how perc's encryption (as proposed in Prague) suppor= ts either audio prompts from the server to the client or DTMF from the clie= nt to the server.

<= /div>
If there is an adjunct web interface for control, = that might not matter - since audio prompts can be streamed over that inter= face if that is desired, and the client can easily use http for replies.=C2= =A0 That approach separates the conference control plane from the media dis= tribution plane.

Though in your use case, another option is to allo= w an initial media connection to the server that doesn't use double for= the purpose of voice/response - and once the user selects their conference= , then that media is torn down and replaced by media encrypted with the con= ference keys.=C2=A0 That works for conference setup, but not other use case= s (announcing new attendees joining the conference, or warning that the con= ference ending time is approaching for example).
Stephen
=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017= at 8:33 AM, Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Paul,

I agree that DTMF is not = to the end user. On second thought I think that if DTMF will be used by the= conference than there may be a separate entity that will handle DTMF. An example is when you call a conference dial-in number and t= he bridge will ask for conference number and password using voice messages.=

I think this may happen a= lso in Webex when you want to join using your phone to dial in, you get pro= mpted for conference ID

Roni=

=C2=A0

From: Paul E. = Jones [mailto:pa= ulej@packetizer.com]
Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D=C2=A0=D7=91 0= 7 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98 2017 14:59
To: perc@ietf.org= ; Roni Even; Suhas Nandakumar; perc@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IE= TF 99

=C2=A0

Roni,

That particular issue is least concerning to me, since all endpoints I know= won't play DTMF into a user's ear. AFAIK, only users over the PSTN= might be affected, but then that suggests there's a gateway in the pat= h and PERC is no longer securing the conference E2E. Thus, gateways need to stay out of PERC conferences.

Paul

From: Roni Eve= n <roni.even@h= uawei.com>
Sent: August 7, 2017 2:57:30 AM EDT
To: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>, "perc@ietf.org" <perc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IE= TF 99

=C2=A0

Hi,<= /p>

I do not have a strong op= inion but I am a bit puzzled about the DTMF issue.

My understating so far wa= s that the MD is the media distribution for a multipoint conferencing appli= cation. Typically in this cases the DTMF is for the multipoint application and not to the conference participants (The DTMF may even be s= uppressed by the conferencing bride) .

So how will such applicat= ion work without DTMF if it depended on it? I think that there should be so= me text about it (use DTMF in the signaling when there is a PERC MD e.g. SIP INFO?)

=C2=A0

Roni=

=C2=A0

From: Perc [mailto:perc-bounce= s@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Suhas Nandakumar
Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D=C2=A0=D7=90 0= 6 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98 2017 23:42
To: perc@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IE= TF 99

=C2=A0

Hello All

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Following up on the consensus confirmat= ion email, the chairs have considered all the inputs received from the peop= le in the room and the inputs from people on the email list and determined = there is consensus for the following 2 items.

=C2=A0

1. =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M'= (marker) bit.

=C2=A0

2. Includes all the below

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Move the OH= B information from header extension to payload=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - RTX, RED an= d FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the double-encr= ypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - DTMF :=C2=A0PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD = will not be able to read DTMF info sent as media=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks for your inputs.

=C2=A0

Cheers

Chairs

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar &= lt;suhasietf@gmail= .com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Hi All,

=C2=A0

At the IETF 99 meeting, we = took hum on the following proposals and there was a strong consensus in the= room in their favor, but we wish to gather any additional inputs on the list.=C2=A0

So, if there are any additional inputs that = was not expressed in the room, please send them to the list by 4th August.

=C2=A0

First Consensus Call:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to mo= dify the 'M' (marker) bit.

=C2=A0

Second Consensus called mad= e includes all the following 3 proposals as a singleton:=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Move the OH= B information from header extension to payload=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - RTX, RED an= d FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying repair on the double-encr= ypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - DTMF :=C2=A0PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD = will not be able to read DTMF info sent as media=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Here are the notes from the= meeting:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Here are the slides corresp= onding to the above proposals :=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks

Perc Chairs<= u>

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Perc mailing list
Perc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc


--001a11c15ed20a8af805562a5d8d-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 10:53:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietf.org Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E6B1329BD; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:53:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: perc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.58.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150221478869.12416.5496499950184670945@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 10:53:08 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Perc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-perc-double-06.txt X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 17:53:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing WG of the IETF. Title : SRTP Double Encryption Procedures Authors : Cullen Jennings Paul E. Jones Richard Barnes Adam Roach Filename : draft-ietf-perc-double-06.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2017-08-08 Abstract: In some conferencing scenarios, it is desirable for an intermediary to be able to manipulate some RTP parameters, while still providing strong end-to-end security guarantees. This document defines SRTP procedures that use two separate but related cryptographic operations to provide hop-by-hop and end-to-end security guarantees. Both the end-to-end and hop-by-hop cryptographic algorithms can utilize an authenticated encryption with associated data scheme or take advantage of future SRTP transforms with different properties. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-perc-double/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-perc-double-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-perc-double-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-perc-double-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 8 22:19:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66100131D27 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 22:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RJRgCtE4qgQA for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 22:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DCD8120227 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 22:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMF81467; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 05:19:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.209) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 06:19:21 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.170]) by DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:19:15 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Stephen Botzko CC: "Paul E. Jones" , "perc@ietf.org" , Suhas Nandakumar Thread-Topic: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 Thread-Index: AQHTD4Z+mIHzcmIxj0CYgc0p4ULYQ6J7feEw Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 05:19:14 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1EEE@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1970@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <522888F9-8AC8-47CF-BA0F-A820ABEB9EC1@packetizer.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1A99@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.51] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7F1EEEDGGEMM506MBXchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090206.598A9B5C.0012, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.170, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 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mail-qt0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 16so6259810qtz.4 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:26:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CMKHARWIMK97Ju32MNFVF67xoDETaNjP7TgOtr4nduE=; b=hsUMjiDVSJhCOskFpJxhzCV9Gt7wmYgzJjFZ9hORTTS9nFSZV/RmbtqDp7daEOQzU/ tZ5I/Jc75b4H8DaFG5rnw3yFroDRWQ8z4kyFetf06+Z8ZrPyzCpQbFOqFWEVGkUeOoF2 kf0JqQ/UWjG+O5fXtmqtLjSlDjiQ67sgUvP7jKzA1NMZAanWgIef/06kQeMAMfNOovy/ jGGt62XcqAQXmLSMb6oaG5oM0QL9nZO/wsd5H8Nk7m+Y90c9ZhoS7Oi0N0OEXS9ju2/Y NY/kOI836DlNRMLI8EMODPLlchGlsPGlRmtDL3Brm7ykl5+uD4EmgQhUjUK3e+MGefTc X49Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CMKHARWIMK97Ju32MNFVF67xoDETaNjP7TgOtr4nduE=; b=CaNVvzgJL8JHsrC/Ff5e5nJlj9IYmNNQ3F/HIlvK6cSoqWL+VOtDFRhg7180vBuYhA ORUS9o8uhX0SuftUJQXD2lGYMgvpK4YAgmY5RfBY4FkJynSc5CKOllfToN9e9bjUjmWY TrJkGDp4vCLEeULxeXWahXkkIoLl2XKrux0gU30bB8591C77jh7a9BdX0xofr11D7kD1 Y9Al9zLgRWr2OB+YN3EOwD4SuzrboEzK49bUwDiaHTFogZlhZFbnZldygnrgixio7j/R 9VL1VxPggPS6ypINe+4b4OEhwIwpPlo4/0xfz99/+rWCYZD6z1Rknxj4SVudBn70Gjhq UCGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jwTq+jsmoUv61Y9qCZI8sU/rhtUjfwSoLuX59Tl7ZCSKvnSQtt gVQmXaSaHOcVowlCTJeFO3mkIQBjse9K X-Received: by 10.200.41.45 with SMTP id y42mr17634300qty.54.1502378781178; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:26:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.130.196 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:26:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:26:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Emil Ivov Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f425891ff48055667d122" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:26:25 -0000 --001a113f425891ff48055667d122 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: > Come again? > > Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your > request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. > > Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? > Hello Emil, For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggregate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs on the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the favor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus process, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI The WG has heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical arguments to be made, the consensus stands. Regards Chairs > > On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: > > Hello All > > > > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have > > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the > > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus > for > > the following 2 items. > > > > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. > > > > 2. Includes all the below > > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload > > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying > repair on > > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) > > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to > read > > DTMF info sent as media > > > > Thanks for your inputs. > > > > Cheers > > Chairs > > > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and there > >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to > gather any > >> additional inputs on the list. > >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the > room, > >> please send them to the list by 4th August. > >> > >> First Consensus Call: > >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. > >> > >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as a > >> singleton: > >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload > >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying > repair > >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) > >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to > >> read DTMF info sent as media > >> > >> Here are the notes from the meeting: > >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt > >> > >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : > >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides- > 99-perc-double-01.pdf > >> > >> > >> Thanks > >> Perc Chairs > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Perc mailing list > > Perc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc > > > > > > -- > https://jitsi.org > --001a113f425891ff48055667d122 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Come again?
Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your
request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite.

Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke?
=


Hello Emil,

For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggr= egate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs o= n the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the fa= vor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus pro= cess, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in

https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI

The WG has heard your conce= rns, but unless there are new technical arguments to be made, the consensus= stands.

Reg= ards

Chairs<= /p>




On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the cha= irs have
> considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the=
> inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus= for
> the following 2 items.
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>
> 2. Includes all the below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extension to= payload
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering = of applying repair on
> the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wil= l not be able to read
> DTMF info sent as media
>
> Thanks for your inputs.
>
> Cheers
> Chairs
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and= there
>> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to = gather any
>> additional inputs on the list.
>> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in t= he room,
>> please send them to the list by 4th August.
>>
>> First Consensus Call:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>>
>> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposal= s as a
>> singleton:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extensio= n to payload
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the order= ing of applying repair
>> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD= will not be able to
>> read DTMF info sent as media
>>
>> Here are the notes from the meeting:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.i= etf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt
>>
>> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Perc Chairs
>
>
>
> ______= _________________________________________
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >



--
https://= jitsi.org

--001a113f425891ff48055667d122-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 08:29:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4621321BE for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41kOxSxo7umv for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59BE0132190 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id f15so25690794wmg.1 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HZerabQ3PhnMQ9r9/yn5dzNbxYUs+SEQeT3e5l6lXSU=; b=v83LEbANDqStN7SFJ1VZvdLij5EiOsRa0MfXTp7BJKhyxY9nFiwaPHLXe8/xkQ035E SL+H2Pk/hjUBTybDW48s4TwyyeUh5ap0n6JwngpZmhXV8a0jh/9kIbdiqDsTEaQH5cDt FXSoxf8/h7BFe0bydBcNMEgsi7Uwp71ZSy7L8zBYbvR8GOqPGG5P+gfQ1vgtyRyhYTCA 5YiAEPQhaHUN9O+iKhPHbH3aiTqlotjGHg5QLYXk6YvcwFthbGguBG2cQ7LR9/IohhtJ bjP2XMunWYOBUudxNY/4XZ7IWYBlj4KOouNoNBO7dIXaIaaBzvLoT6i8IgNtHjzz+YqL bH0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HZerabQ3PhnMQ9r9/yn5dzNbxYUs+SEQeT3e5l6lXSU=; b=CSD+/Q+tgkRXp9UvBEweqA3Y6d0LlYX8bwF1uPFTN/IS9MONmof0nVMQs5JYQslbO9 p2rSqRmdhKG2Szl3FlWOfJEPq0cPX+C7E4HJ1WvL4ChGw5oPh1mQ33RXKc87NQd6tmHG x6MOtEWXCKl+7xDSxeTu86nzh+wwcYpWKoMmu7upTFS07H9X5OvyvyVqLvFRn6ktDk0a lg+TZF6+DAdthaDAJcj+G9HuDe+ewTxhjuKKUJlp0zgo1leBDovYDb5dPBVQmyaNAmwb 7VKKI9fwvCvaDty2uv6uG866mT70K9WF+/+pR4KVWr8Bl3tKW3NEjyPD3V73UFNxiE6o 8MCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5h01dpM6UWKM8j1fFVY7UhmVkuSmgU7JQmO9PNmZL35DDYHAhFM IkMdRs4rLdW1wGcNH/VZ360lmkkjEqKl X-Received: by 10.80.226.67 with SMTP id o3mr12314705edl.65.1502378976827; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:29:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Emil Ivov Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:29:25 +0000 Message-ID: To: Suhas Nandakumar Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043e272c3b738c055667ddd4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:29:41 -0000 --f403043e272c3b738c055667ddd4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Suhas, I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails on this list, sent from the "substantially more people in the favor" that express theor support? I am struggling to find any. Emil On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: > >> Come again? >> >> Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your >> request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. >> >> Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? >> > > > Hello Emil, > > For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggregate of > inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs on the > email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the favor of > the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus process, > the chairs made the final consensus call as described in > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI > > The WG has heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical > arguments to be made, the consensus stands. > > Regards > > Chairs > > >> >> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar >> wrote: >> > Hello All >> > >> > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have >> > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the >> > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus >> for >> > the following 2 items. >> > >> > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >> > >> > 2. Includes all the below >> > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >> > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >> repair on >> > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >> > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to >> read >> > DTMF info sent as media >> > >> > Thanks for your inputs. >> > >> > Cheers >> > Chairs >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar > > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and >> there >> >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to >> gather any >> >> additional inputs on the list. >> >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the >> room, >> >> please send them to the list by 4th August. >> >> >> >> First Consensus Call: >> >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >> >> >> >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals as >> a >> >> singleton: >> >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >> >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >> repair >> >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >> >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able to >> >> read DTMF info sent as media >> >> >> >> Here are the notes from the meeting: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt >> >> >> >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Perc Chairs >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Perc mailing list >> > Perc@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> https://jitsi.org >> > -- sent from my mobile --f403043e272c3b738c055667ddd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Suhas,=C2=A0

I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails on = this list, sent from the "substantially more people in the favor"= that express theor support?

I am struggling to find any.

Emil

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017= at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar <suha= sietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 = at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Come again?

Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your
request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite.

Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke?
=


Hello Emil,

For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the ag= gregate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs= on the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the = favor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus p= rocess, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI<= /a>

The WG h= as heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical arguments to be = made, the consensus stands.

Regards

Chairs




On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the cha= irs have
> considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the=
> inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus= for
> the following 2 items.
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>
> 2. Includes all the below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extension to= payload
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering = of applying repair on
> the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wil= l not be able to read
> DTMF info sent as media
>
> Thanks for your inputs.
>
> Cheers
> Chairs
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and= there
>> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to = gather any
>> additional inputs on the list.
>> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in t= he room,
>> please send them to the list by 4th August.
>>
>> First Consensus Call:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>>
>> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposal= s as a
>> singleton:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extensio= n to payload
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the order= ing of applying repair
>> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD= will not be able to
>> read DTMF info sent as media
>>
>> Here are the notes from the meeting:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.i= etf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt
>>
>> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Perc Chairs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________= ________
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc
>



--
https://= jitsi.org
--
sent from my mobile
--f403043e272c3b738c055667ddd4-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 13:24:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636E0132448 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zRt1_BaJHKok for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BDC7128A32 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id d136so10669944qkg.3 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cBoRrLl4Jj/3Ms6YJazryKqik5EysP5OrF3dmfRoKXA=; b=AGrO8XKcrAsiKSt4lIySSSUddR7b4byEYZo1BQdSSopWpMgVyHQXHq2NWZXF6t7khZ ibW1WzBbCRPW7J38PlEV8Szahh05vx1cghuRseELxeKquTeFgKq5ZJZF+AWV4DG9fgGD M7/hDrs92U3js0TT8E3+VlriK/YHRrIfjqJxxPPusR9kmeuG7pzoqiJTbogS7CSepmSD QtpofRhioVCedhJ56e4xH+VmI0aCriW0I/SVhhNgmiAXS+RZ2fznZZItVOTJdNTVtXnN XRh3zPFOoqnUEKCYKzEbicE6OZBv7XVobI8zL8XDybMm68Sf0GvB9Gp1Yw6/02gu7Yux bxbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cBoRrLl4Jj/3Ms6YJazryKqik5EysP5OrF3dmfRoKXA=; b=dbWJ/f//fmZlMM3DCrtUMh90a7xExF7cTc/ux7kgFX6LF/OBoDEILeM3qOuFTEfOoV 1aNc+4EQM7U+WbvFkIpYR+0BZkBEFZrutO1G2naM1+a/t98bDbs0e/AIckoFPZplV/4W yXTheQDR0L3TZOdXbepR5i72p6RgUc3KQzSnEQmlxkUVKGEH7gkaEKvQFdPZWlJmQ5NH 7B9yEz4AHhLP0oQtCGbB5LHQf9n+/YJYOgPzifkX34IBwlQh+oRrIH1wetE+qAegqCxM lYtdIhwToiWKOCAmAKbYiIv4PhRBNkJ64I1Ylb6IFhmLttgK4cEg56HUP3rcUbBMvZcZ lV0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5irAe1HXf5vOzwJPeIL5l/36ZW5y8zaRlMLci/Zwmc2c0srzZDB g5RE1VY+rnScW9oJeZFvbL/9r8Fb/A== X-Received: by 10.55.58.130 with SMTP id h124mr12441453qka.192.1502396662666; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.130.196 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Emil Ivov Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a235c63d8e705566bfb47" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:24:26 -0000 --001a114a235c63d8e705566bfb47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Emil The votes that went to deciding consensus includes *both the in-room and on-list responses* towards the proposal. We had a strong consensus in the favor of the proposal in the room at the IETF 99 meeting (as reflected in the minutes and recordings). Hope this clarifies your question Cheers Suhas On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > Suhas, > > I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails on this list, > sent from the "substantially more people in the favor" that express theor > support? > > I am struggling to find any. > > Emil > > On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >> >>> Come again? >>> >>> Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your >>> request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. >>> >>> Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? >>> >> >> >> Hello Emil, >> >> For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggregate of >> inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs on the >> email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the favor of >> the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus process, >> the chairs made the final consensus call as described in >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI >> >> The WG has heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical >> arguments to be made, the consensus stands. >> >> Regards >> >> Chairs >> >> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar >>> wrote: >>> > Hello All >>> > >>> > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have >>> > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the >>> > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus >>> for >>> > the following 2 items. >>> > >>> > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>> > >>> > 2. Includes all the below >>> > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>> > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>> repair on >>> > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>> > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able >>> to read >>> > DTMF info sent as media >>> > >>> > Thanks for your inputs. >>> > >>> > Cheers >>> > Chairs >>> > >>> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar < >>> suhasietf@gmail.com> >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Hi All, >>> >> >>> >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and >>> there >>> >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to >>> gather any >>> >> additional inputs on the list. >>> >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the >>> room, >>> >> please send them to the list by 4th August. >>> >> >>> >> First Consensus Call: >>> >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>> >> >>> >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals >>> as a >>> >> singleton: >>> >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>> >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>> repair >>> >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>> >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able >>> to >>> >> read DTMF info sent as media >>> >> >>> >> Here are the notes from the meeting: >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt >>> >> >>> >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides- >>> 99-perc-double-01.pdf >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Thanks >>> >> Perc Chairs >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Perc mailing list >>> > Perc@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> https://jitsi.org >>> >> -- > sent from my mobile > --001a114a235c63d8e705566bfb47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Emil

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The votes that = went to deciding consensus includes both the =C2=A0in-room and on-list r= esponses towards the proposal.=C2=A0 We had a strong consensus in the f= avor of the proposal in the room at the IETF 99 meeting (as reflected in th= e minutes and recordings).

Hope this clarifies you= r question

Cheers
Suhas



On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org><= /span> wrote:
Suha= s,=C2=A0

I would really = appreciate it if you could point me to mails on this list, sent from the &q= uot;substantially more people in the favor" that express theor support= ?

I am struggling to fin= d any.

Emil

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at = 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On= Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Come again?

Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your
request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite.

Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke?
=


Hello Emil,

For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the ag= gregate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs= on the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the = favor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus p= rocess, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks= 3YRm7LFBI

Regards

Chairs




On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the cha= irs have
> considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the=
> inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus= for
> the following 2 items.
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>
> 2. Includes all the below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extension to= payload
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering = of applying repair on
> the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wil= l not be able to read
> DTMF info sent as media
>
> Thanks for your inputs.
>
> Cheers
> Chairs
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and= there
>> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to = gather any
>> additional inputs on the list.
>> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in t= he room,
>> please send them to the list by 4th August.
>>
>> First Consensus Call:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>>
>> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposal= s as a
>> singleton:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extensio= n to payload
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the order= ing of applying repair
>> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD= will not be able to
>> read DTMF info sent as media
>>
>> Here are the notes from the meeting:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.i= etf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt
>>
>> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Perc Chairs
>
>
>
= > _______________________________________________
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >



--
https://= jitsi.org
<= /div>
--
sent from my mobile

--001a114a235c63d8e705566bfb47-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 14:36:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E3F132455 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMIhQubSQ67H for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2525C132452 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id t138so23748526wmt.1 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:36:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WJSRzc5dmgWpMwKRX092ys1Ih3kcbY1kV4+BVvPu42A=; b=gwU6pyPs7NME3dbZjI03EsXbb1u1g8S0rwzEkbcZV/WBHIx3x5SkUnApB3Pt7F+cy5 KnTB/xYVUNK3BQMCozdABq9Ldt5SUv8+WwPLuHgLIvG9sI3HpmljEOay5tRobqIypQKh woAi0WTXqy7jwWWRMUYM7DfwfwKvsRQyqbfdS3O8fFI1M1ahp4cHm/igwqZ1jhXZe6wv UJBm2JHGYCP6VmSPPgGNscFdXFz/tJ+vfE/VeJWLlQUvcSNYbWzF8d3mPVzhi8mcpFmj Q6FPGndGuZX/8ksVlWGQH/4YBrqZzNzU9fRa2zV+PH+znLIYzRhElfiEvfrHPUSarUhf Ldyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WJSRzc5dmgWpMwKRX092ys1Ih3kcbY1kV4+BVvPu42A=; b=gD16ftjC+397RQvCA2a1uR+ike3uyR7I0uUOjG4t/LvJSLU7T4PuVpAsQ7ck/eI37Q RbeZm6c/3vK0WE1k7y5DeA/OBvNRfyLdulOoxdL9fsc5W+Hqha7rluPRw9KNlaCQyYot JhI8WrSpzXWi0kKDgtCHdv2C0fNCc/6niuaIVYCtx4Gz5W99LZ5ICEhPMAJFqFNfn2ZV b3On6xhVMD7VxmuxrfXy020m4qrhZszjx/MGuWWPXBK6NVcXt5Zs+zCFbcirBWjYuNgH gihT0rnLigK3DtM5tBMBtjYl3pIMwB0f22rmDCTc4RIjdc+qeGgneZVZoFuKAEUfK/CY kLQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hXfOxoSRv4unhECBsGLS6BhaKACV5GXMBEtxdPsqogQ8FEV5Dq 5px/jIF81k/ubsYPK3orxLGt/PzPejEV X-Received: by 10.80.143.38 with SMTP id 35mr13342329edy.218.1502400968448; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:36:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Emil Ivov Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:35:56 +0000 Message-ID: To: Suhas Nandakumar Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c194a3008f35005566cfcf8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:36:13 -0000 --94eb2c194a3008f35005566cfcf8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 15:24, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > Hello Emil > > The votes that went to deciding consensus includes *both the in-room > and on-list responses* towards the proposal. We had a strong consensus > in the favor of the proposal in the room at the IETF 99 meeting (as > reflected in the minutes and recordings). > > Hope this clarifies your question > Well no, of course it doesn't. It is unclear from the recording exactly how much support there was during the meeting and there are no mails in support of this proposal on the list. There are some discussing it and some opposing it. So why you choose to determine consensus in support of this proposal remains a mystery to me. (Well not really) Emil > Cheers > Suhas > > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > >> Suhas, >> >> I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails on this list, >> sent from the "substantially more people in the favor" that express theor >> support? >> >> I am struggling to find any. >> >> Emil >> >> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar >> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>> >>>> Come again? >>>> >>>> Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your >>>> request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. >>>> >>>> Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? >>>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Emil, >>> >>> For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggregate of >>> inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs on the >>> email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the favor of >>> the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus process, >>> the chairs made the final consensus call as described in >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI >>> >>> The WG has heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical >>> arguments to be made, the consensus stands. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Chairs >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar >>>> wrote: >>>> > Hello All >>>> > >>>> > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have >>>> > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the >>>> > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is >>>> consensus for >>>> > the following 2 items. >>>> > >>>> > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>>> > >>>> > 2. Includes all the below >>>> > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>>> > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>>> repair on >>>> > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>>> > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able >>>> to read >>>> > DTMF info sent as media >>>> > >>>> > Thanks for your inputs. >>>> > >>>> > Cheers >>>> > Chairs >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar < >>>> suhasietf@gmail.com> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi All, >>>> >> >>>> >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and >>>> there >>>> >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to >>>> gather any >>>> >> additional inputs on the list. >>>> >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in the >>>> room, >>>> >> please send them to the list by 4th August. >>>> >> >>>> >> First Consensus Call: >>>> >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>>> >> >>>> >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals >>>> as a >>>> >> singleton: >>>> >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>>> >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>>> repair >>>> >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>>> >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able >>>> to >>>> >> read DTMF info sent as media >>>> >> >>>> >> Here are the notes from the meeting: >>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt >>>> >> >>>> >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : >>>> >> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks >>>> >> Perc Chairs >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Perc mailing list >>>> > Perc@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> https://jitsi.org >>>> >>> -- >> sent from my mobile >> > > -- sent from my mobile --94eb2c194a3008f35005566cfcf8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 a= t 15:24, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasi= etf@gmail.com> wrote:
H= ello Emil

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The votes that went to deciding c= onsensus includes both the =C2=A0in-room and on-list responses towar= ds the proposal.=C2=A0 We had a strong consensus in the favor of the propos= al in the room at the IETF 99 meeting (as reflected in the minutes and reco= rdings).

Hope this clarifies your question

Well no, of = course it doesn't. It is unclear from the recording exactly how much su= pport there was during the meeting and there are no mails in support of thi= s proposal on the list.=C2=A0

There are some discussing it and some opposing it.=C2=A0

So why you choose to determine conse= nsus in support of this proposal remains a mystery to me. (Well not really)=

Emil


<= div>

Cheers
Suhas
<= div>


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Suhas,= =C2=A0

I would really ap= preciate it if you could point me to mails on this list, sent from the &quo= t;substantially more people in the favor" that express theor support?<= /div>

I am struggling to find = any.

Emil

On T= hu, 10 Aug 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> w= rote:
Come again?

Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your
request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite.

Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke?
=


Hello Emil,

For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the ag= gregate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs= on the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the = favor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus p= rocess, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI<= /a>

The WG h= as heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical arguments to be = made, the consensus stands.

Regards

Chairs




On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the cha= irs have
> considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the=
> inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus= for
> the following 2 items.
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>
> 2. Includes all the below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extension to= payload
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering = of applying repair on
> the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wil= l not be able to read
> DTMF info sent as media
>
> Thanks for your inputs.
>
> Cheers
> Chairs
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and= there
>> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to = gather any
>> additional inputs on the list.
>> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in t= he room,
>> please send them to the list by 4th August.
>>
>> First Consensus Call:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>>
>> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposal= s as a
>> singleton:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extensio= n to payload
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the order= ing of applying repair
>> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD= will not be able to
>> read DTMF info sent as media
>>
>> Here are the notes from the meeting:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.i= etf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt
>>
>> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Perc Chairs
>
>
>
> ____________________________= ___________________
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc
>



--
https://= jitsi.org
<= /div>--
sent from my mobile

--
sent from my mobile
--94eb2c194a3008f35005566cfcf8-- From nobody Sun Aug 13 12:16:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A76132475 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UgecG8a301fZ for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp77.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (smtp77.ord1c.emailsrvr.com [108.166.43.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74A9313209C for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0923BC0213; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 15:16:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp2.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 859C9C0212; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 15:16:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from [10.85.165.86] ([UNAVAILABLE]. [173.38.117.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.7.12); Sun, 13 Aug 2017 15:16:04 -0400 From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:16:04 -0700 Message-Id: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> Cc: Roni Even To: perc@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [Perc] DTMF in Double X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 19:16:09 -0000 I think Roni had a good point about DTMF can be done with the SIP INFO = approach so I plan to add the text do double that says something along = the lines of=20 When DTMF is sent with [RFC4733], it is end-to-end encrypted and the relay can not read it so it can not be used to control the media relay. Other out of band methods to control the relay need to can be used instead. One way to do this is to send DTMF with [RFC6086], which will be sent in the signalling thus allowing the relay to read the DTMF. From nobody Sun Aug 13 12:27:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4631324C4 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-kSZUNoEAJ9 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65B613277C for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id k20so12858840wmg.0 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Cp+EpD5t/XPkKfg3Er2ui4w7Dlp1y6qYYPG9Hw6Yo6g=; b=TgFycZebX4fG39VYu4WjvE4xtbavEK304GrNWDhcOi4ZPiA1zRJeMUkgExIyxjM2p0 IcNW8z9W6K4YQd7bo2mP73g5aO9415DCgiFqGJ4M0H8FMhN6/QQduRt8AiKVa8YPqTD8 cqUDcTKy5Ht+klay2RajdkplB6n+8+NZ8v2KdjT3aYzwIfoLGsZ7MQbyXSjTaPCL9wCW y7JqJF/UydKNk75sVDvt0WqDyqybmUtBsxgoxbKPJJjPDaqBCfRXudgLtWsB+LQkHw7T agcvfw8MDVqNTwekXaWprs7WVD1R7wjygPcVA0WgnFaQO0Z/ZkRNzuaoqqcw3ZXHtaQ3 HVAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Cp+EpD5t/XPkKfg3Er2ui4w7Dlp1y6qYYPG9Hw6Yo6g=; b=Nr9vF/pAjDV6dyU9I4EVh+Hi47tWHgEFKDZjh2/BdrUvWfLjV1zHQf2Z6fWlIKvQ/u 3Q0rX83Wg8MIOCcCs8yYNRTnE7OuACP1Fbs3xuxepiIxeYG7+8+Lfjqn9JaWBvFZUjXx O1kze3ocqzQy9ESk5ha1fe9Vb3rEAPLlwFRcmVyZpqzcgzEpXakq4Vr+G1XzHTP6XP3o AR6bYSROEvcYG/GgyOsq+F3N8ifyVNcrzloVlAKecAQF8G4NFLjghj3TlWccFIQvssBw MYyZCpUvzoWykk+9a1XGrbJX/RIA3SKJXvSr0cz6CB6DUw55Yqg09hjDdm+hzL7ooSxn iB4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5iyMR9LyU3ttf16RD2p3rDcVGnYf3CK49kfWx315mWaBumOI1Qe 0L60778HG27w47svk5yJu6k/cloJttMn X-Received: by 10.80.140.36 with SMTP id p33mr22202358edp.257.1502652422327; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:27:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Emil Ivov Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 19:26:50 +0000 Message-ID: To: Suhas Nandakumar Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1951e2daa5c40556a78745" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 19:27:07 -0000 --94eb2c1951e2daa5c40556a78745 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" OK then, I guess we'd have to wait for IETF last call On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 16:35, Emil Ivov wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 15:24, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: > >> Hello Emil >> >> The votes that went to deciding consensus includes *both the in-room >> and on-list responses* towards the proposal. We had a strong consensus >> in the favor of the proposal in the room at the IETF 99 meeting (as >> reflected in the minutes and recordings). >> >> Hope this clarifies your question >> > > Well no, of course it doesn't. It is unclear from the recording exactly > how much support there was during the meeting and there are no mails in > support of this proposal on the list. > > There are some discussing it and some opposing it. > > So why you choose to determine consensus in support of this proposal > remains a mystery to me. (Well not really) > > Emil > > > >> Cheers >> Suhas >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: >> >>> Suhas, >>> >>> I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails on this >>> list, sent from the "substantially more people in the favor" that express >>> theor support? >>> >>> I am struggling to find any. >>> >>> Emil >>> >>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come again? >>>>> >>>>> Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your >>>>> request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. >>>>> >>>>> Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Emil, >>>> >>>> For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggregate of >>>> inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs on the >>>> email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the favor of >>>> the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus process, >>>> the chairs made the final consensus call as described in >>>> >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI >>>> >>>> The WG has heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical >>>> arguments to be made, the consensus stands. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Chairs >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Hello All >>>>> > >>>>> > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have >>>>> > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and >>>>> the >>>>> > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is >>>>> consensus for >>>>> > the following 2 items. >>>>> > >>>>> > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>>>> > >>>>> > 2. Includes all the below >>>>> > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>>>> > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>>>> repair on >>>>> > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>>>> > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able >>>>> to read >>>>> > DTMF info sent as media >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks for your inputs. >>>>> > >>>>> > Cheers >>>>> > Chairs >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar < >>>>> suhasietf@gmail.com> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hi All, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and >>>>> there >>>>> >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to >>>>> gather any >>>>> >> additional inputs on the list. >>>>> >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in >>>>> the room, >>>>> >> please send them to the list by 4th August. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> First Consensus Call: >>>>> >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals >>>>> as a >>>>> >> singleton: >>>>> >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>>>> >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>>>> repair >>>>> >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>>>> >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be >>>>> able to >>>>> >> read DTMF info sent as media >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Here are the notes from the meeting: >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thanks >>>>> >> Perc Chairs >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Perc mailing list >>>>> > Perc@ietf.org >>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> https://jitsi.org >>>>> >>>> -- >>> sent from my mobile >>> >> >> -- > sent from my mobile > -- sent from my mobile --94eb2c1951e2daa5c40556a78745 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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sent from my mobile<= /div>
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sent from my mobile --94eb2c1951e2daa5c40556a78745-- From nobody Sun Aug 13 13:22:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592D013240C for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:22:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mGTnQThhI4TI for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp69.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp69.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC2241328C5 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0FF8D5516; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:22:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 9A5E3390E; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:22:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from [10.85.165.86] ([UNAVAILABLE]. [173.38.117.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.7.12); Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:22:30 -0400 From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:22:30 -0700 Message-Id: <95285B6F-658A-41CC-A38A-0FADF98907E7@iii.ca> Cc: Roni Even To: perc@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [Perc] DTMF in Double X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 20:22:42 -0000 I think Roni had a good point about DTMF can be done with the SIP INFO = approach so I plan to add the text do double that says something along = the lines of=20 When DTMF is sent with [RFC4733], it is end-to-end encrypted and the relay can not read it so it can not be used to control the media relay. Other out of band methods to control the relay need to can be used instead. One way to do this is to send DTMF with [RFC6086], which will be sent in the signalling thus allowing the relay to read the DTMF. From nobody Sun Aug 13 14:59:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD551331CF for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 14:59:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvq2NtK-Dm5V for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 14:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A599B1331CE for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 14:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v7DLxAx6094203 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:59:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Cullen Jennings , perc@ietf.org Cc: Roni Even References: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:59:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] DTMF in Double X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 21:59:19 -0000 On 8/13/17 2:16 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > I think Roni had a good point about DTMF can be done with the SIP INFO approach so I plan to add the text do double that says something along the lines of > > When DTMF is sent with [RFC4733], it is end-to-end encrypted and the > relay can not read it so it can not be used to control the media > relay. Other out of band methods to control the relay need to can > be used instead. One way to do this is to send DTMF with [RFC6086], > which will be sent in the signalling thus allowing the relay to read > the DTMF. > RFC6086 doesn't define how to send DTMF in the signaling path any more than RFC3261, RFC675, or RFC791 do. 3GPP 24.229 does, if you want to cite that. The other two options are RFC4730 and "It's 2017 -- don't do that." /a From nobody Sun Aug 13 22:28:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C665124217 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 22:28:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o_0zE35vDrZT for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 22:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 366E9126B6E for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 22:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DTJ24820; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 05:28:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.211) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 06:28:41 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.138]) by DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.211]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:28:31 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Adam Roach , Cullen Jennings , "perc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Perc] DTMF in Double Thread-Index: AQHTFGifdLavE/mpIkiD1tCWLGrehKKCT9WAgAD/eYA= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 05:28:31 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7FD189@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.51] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.36.23 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:25:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Emil Ivov Cc: perc@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11430b1cfb4dff0556bfd0eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] Confirmation of Consensus on PERC Double from IETF 99 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:25:32 -0000 --001a11430b1cfb4dff0556bfd0eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 15:24, Suhas Nandakumar > wrote: > >> Hello Emil >> >> The votes that went to deciding consensus includes *both the in-room >> and on-list responses* towards the proposal. We had a strong consensus >> in the favor of the proposal in the room at the IETF 99 meeting (as >> reflected in the minutes and recordings). >> >> Hope this clarifies your question >> > > Well no, of course it doesn't. It is unclear from the recording exactly > how much support there was during the meeting and there are no mails in > support of this proposal on the list. > > There are some discussing it and some opposing it. > > So why you choose to determine consensus in support of this proposal > remains a mystery to me. (Well not really) > > Hi Emil The chairs did call for the hum for the proposal in the room of around 25 people on "who strongly or somewhat supports the proposal vs who strongly objects" and there were considerable support for the former and none for the latter. The hums and on-list inputs were accounted for making the consensus call. Thanks Perc Chairs > Emil > > > >> Cheers >> Suhas >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: >> >>> Suhas, >>> >>> I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails on this >>> list, sent from the "substantially more people in the favor" that express >>> theor support? >>> >>> I am struggling to find any. >>> >>> Emil >>> >>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come again? >>>>> >>>>> Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your >>>>> request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite. >>>>> >>>>> Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke? >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Emil, >>>> >>>> For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the aggregate of >>>> inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs on the >>>> email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the favor of >>>> the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus process, >>>> the chairs made the final consensus call as described in >>>> >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI >>>> >>>> The WG has heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical >>>> arguments to be made, the consensus stands. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Chairs >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Hello All >>>>> > >>>>> > Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the chairs have >>>>> > considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and >>>>> the >>>>> > inputs from people on the email list and determined there is >>>>> consensus for >>>>> > the following 2 items. >>>>> > >>>>> > 1. Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>>>> > >>>>> > 2. Includes all the below >>>>> > - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>>>> > - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>>>> repair on >>>>> > the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>>>> > - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be able >>>>> to read >>>>> > DTMF info sent as media >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks for your inputs. >>>>> > >>>>> > Cheers >>>>> > Chairs >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar < >>>>> suhasietf@gmail.com> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hi All, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and >>>>> there >>>>> >> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to >>>>> gather any >>>>> >> additional inputs on the list. >>>>> >> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in >>>>> the room, >>>>> >> please send them to the list by 4th August. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> First Consensus Call: >>>>> >> Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposals >>>>> as a >>>>> >> singleton: >>>>> >> - Move the OHB information from header extension to payload >>>>> >> - RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering of applying >>>>> repair >>>>> >> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides) >>>>> >> - DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD will not be >>>>> able to >>>>> >> read DTMF info sent as media >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Here are the notes from the meeting: >>>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/ >>>>> minutes-99-perc-01.txt >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals : >>>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides- >>>>> 99-perc-double-01.pdf >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thanks >>>>> >> Perc Chairs >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Perc mailing list >>>>> > Perc@ietf.org >>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> https://jitsi.org >>>>> >>>> -- >>> sent from my mobile >>> >> >> -- > sent from my mobile > --001a11430b1cfb4dff0556bfd0eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

On Thu, 10= Aug 2017 at 15:24, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Emil

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The votes that went to deciding consensus includes both t= he =C2=A0in-room and on-list responses towards the proposal.=C2=A0 We h= ad a strong consensus in the favor of the proposal in the room at the IETF = 99 meeting (as reflected in the minutes and recordings).

Hope this clarifies your question

Well no, of course it doesn= 9;t. It is unclear from the recording exactly how much support there was du= ring the meeting and there are no mails in support of this proposal on the = list.=C2=A0

There are so= me discussing it and some opposing it.=C2=A0

So why you choose to determine consensus in support of= this proposal remains a mystery to me. (Well not really)


Hi Emil
=C2=A0 The chairs did call for the hum for the proposal in the = room of around 25 people on "who strongly or somewhat supports the pro= posal vs who strongly objects" and there were considerable support for= the former and none for the latter. The hums and on-list inputs were accou= nted for making the consensus call.

Thanks
Perc Chairs=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Emil
<= br>


Cheers
Suhas


=
On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov <= span><emcho@jitsi.o= rg> wrote:
Suhas,=C2=A0

I would really appreciate it if you could point me to mails = on this list, sent from the "substantially more people in the favor&qu= ot; that express theor support?

I am struggling to find any.

Emil

On Thu, 10 Aug 20= 17 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Come again= ?

Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your
request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite.

Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke?
=


Hello Emil,

For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the ag= gregate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs= on the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the = favor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus p= rocess, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks= 3YRm7LFBI

Regards

Chairs




On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the cha= irs have
> considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the=
> inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus= for
> the following 2 items.
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>
> 2. Includes all the below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extension to= payload
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering = of applying repair on
> the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wil= l not be able to read
> DTMF info sent as media
>
> Thanks for your inputs.
>
> Cheers
> Chairs
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and= there
>> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to = gather any
>> additional inputs on the list.
>> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in t= he room,
>> please send them to the list by 4th August.
>>
>> First Consensus Call:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>>
>> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposal= s as a
>> singleton:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extensio= n to payload
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the order= ing of applying repair
>> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD= will not be able to
>> read DTMF info sent as media
>>
>> Here are the notes from the meeting:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.i= etf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt
>>
>> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Perc Chairs
>
>
>
> __________________________________________= _____
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc >



--
https://= jitsi.org
<= /div>
--
sent= from my mobile

--
sent from my mobile

--001a11430b1cfb4dff0556bfd0eb-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 07:59:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietf.org Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B6D7132055; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:59:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: snandaku@cisco.com, perc-chairs@ietf.org, perc@ietf.org, ben@nostrum.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.58.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150280917599.21008.16479566465603085903.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:59:35 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Perc] perc - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 14:59:36 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Suhas Nandakumar, a Chair of the perc working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Suhas Nandakumar Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 45 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: quic sipbrandy rtcweb tls avtcore clue netvc acme dispatch mmusic Second Priority: ice saag modern uta xrblock payload stir sipcore oauth tcpinc Third Priority: kitten insipid codec People who must be present: Ben Campbell Suhas Nandakumar Nils Ohlmeier Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Aug 15 10:21:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704581321CB for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HfZDe5Zhfh-u for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp125.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp125.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6704D132143 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp32.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp32.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AD38C5A18; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:21:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp32.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id BB6865C3A; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:21:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from [10.85.165.130] ([UNAVAILABLE]. [173.38.117.85]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.7.12); Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:21:38 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BC46332B-4CCB-4FB4-A030-2C648258AA9E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7FD189@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:21:39 -0700 Cc: Adam Roach , "perc@ietf.org" Message-Id: References: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7FD189@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] DTMF in Double X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:21:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BC46332B-4CCB-4FB4-A030-2C648258AA9E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have no strong opinion if we should add this to the draft or not. When = I read it written up, It seems way outside the scope of double and more = like something that would be at a system level. But the PR if we want to = adopt it is at=20 https://github.com/ietf/perc-wg/pull/130 = > On Aug 13, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Roni Even wrote: >=20 > Hi Adan, > Yes these are the two options.=20 > I think that the important thing here is to caution that DTMF may be = used for conference control and if encrypted end to end there need to be = some conference level way to receive input from the conference = participants (RFC4730, 3gpp 24.229) or having a media server that MUST = have the end to end keys.. >=20 > DTMF can be used for conference join(MD?), for routing callers to the = right agent in call centers, for input of information during the call = (E2E?),....=20 > The first example may be relevant to the MD while the third is in = general end to end and DTMF must be encrypted. >=20 > Roni >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----Original Message----- >> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com] >> Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=91 14 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98= 2017 00:59 >> To: Cullen Jennings; perc@ietf.org >> Cc: Roni Even >> Subject: Re: [Perc] DTMF in Double >>=20 >> On 8/13/17 2:16 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> I think Roni had a good point about DTMF can be done with the SIP = INFO >>> approach so I plan to add the text do double that says something = along >>> the lines of >>>=20 >>> When DTMF is sent with [RFC4733], it is end-to-end encrypted and = the >>> relay can not read it so it can not be used to control the media >>> relay. Other out of band methods to control the relay need to = can >>> be used instead. One way to do this is to send DTMF with = [RFC6086], >>> which will be sent in the signalling thus allowing the relay to = read >>> the DTMF. >>>=20 >>=20 >> RFC6086 doesn't define how to send DTMF in the signaling path any = more >> than RFC3261, RFC675, or RFC791 do. >>=20 >> 3GPP 24.229 does, if you want to cite that. The other two options are >> RFC4730 and "It's 2017 -- don't do that." >>=20 >> /a --Apple-Mail=_BC46332B-4CCB-4FB4-A030-2C648258AA9E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

I have no strong opinion = if we should add this to the draft or not. When I read it written up, It = seems way outside the scope of double and more like something that would = be at a system level. But the PR if we want to adopt it is at 

https://github.com/ietf/perc-wg/pull/130



On Aug 13, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi = Adan,
Yes these are the two options.
I = think that the important thing here is to caution that DTMF may be used = for conference control and if encrypted end to end there need to be some = conference level way to receive input from the conference participants = (RFC4730, 3gpp 24.229) or having a media server that MUST have the end = to end keys..

DTMF can be used for = conference join(MD?), for routing callers to the right agent in call = centers, for input of information during the call (E2E?),....
The first example may be relevant to the MD while the third = is in general end to end and DTMF must be encrypted.

Roni



----Original Message-----
From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
Sent: = =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=91 14 =D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=95=D7=A1=D7=98 = 2017 00:59
To: Cullen Jennings; perc@ietf.org
Cc: Roni Even
Subject: Re: [Perc] DTMF in = Double

On 8/13/17 2:16 PM, Cullen Jennings = wrote:
I think Roni = had a good point about DTMF can be done with the SIP INFO
approach so I plan to add the text do double that says = something along
the lines of

=    When DTMF is sent with [RFC4733], it is end-to-end = encrypted and the
   relay can not read it = so it can not be used to control the media
=    relay.  Other out of band methods to control the = relay need to can
   be used instead. =  One way to do this is to send DTMF with [RFC6086],
=    which will be sent in the signalling thus allowing the = relay to read
   the DTMF.

RFC6086 doesn't define how to = send DTMF in the signaling path any more
than RFC3261, = RFC675, or RFC791 do.

3GPP 24.229 does, if = you want to cite that. The other two options are
RFC4730 = and "It's 2017 -- don't do that."

/a

= --Apple-Mail=_BC46332B-4CCB-4FB4-A030-2C648258AA9E-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 10:32:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4135C132143 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:32:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3nwFLBYbWfkt for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5F3A120713 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.roach.at (cpe-70-122-154-80.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.154.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v7FHW736042388 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:32:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-154-80.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.154.80] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at To: Cullen Jennings , Roni Even Cc: "perc@ietf.org" References: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7FD189@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <302b3958-f7d3-437e-9da3-cc452a9de2db@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:32:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] DTMF in Double X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:32:17 -0000 On 8/15/17 12:21 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > I have no strong opinion if we should add this to the draft or not. > When I read it written up, It seems way outside the scope of double > and more like something that would be at a system level. But the PR if > we want to adopt it is at > > https://github.com/ietf/perc-wg/pull/130 > LGTM. /a From nobody Sun Aug 27 03:10:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: perc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A116613218E for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2017 03:10:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0fQXa8hYQA4h for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2017 03:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [45.249.212.187]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 692C01252BA for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2017 03:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.30.72.56 (EHLO LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.30.72.56]) by dggrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.4.6-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id AVH92368; Sun, 27 Aug 2017 18:09:57 +0800 (CST) Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:27:53 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.138]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Sun, 27 Aug 2017 13:27:51 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Adam Roach , Cullen Jennings CC: "perc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Perc] DTMF in Double Thread-Index: AQHTFer5LxXNOgDaD06vJvB4fW4T0qKFJuEAgBKXs8A= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2017 05:27:50 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7FFD76@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <65EF378D-664F-46E3-8853-56E5BB52C83D@iii.ca> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7FD189@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <302b3958-f7d3-437e-9da3-cc452a9de2db@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <302b3958-f7d3-437e-9da3-cc452a9de2db@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.75] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.59A29A75.008E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.138, so=2014-11-16 11:51:01, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e2e0a7f8600d434d9f37850803cf5d62 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Perc] DTMF in Double X-BeenThere: perc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhanced RTP Conferencing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:10:07 -0000 KzENCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBBZGFtIFJvYWNoIFtt YWlsdG86YWRhbUBub3N0cnVtLmNvbV0NCj4gU2VudDog15nXldedwqDXkiAxNSDXkNeV15LXldeh 15ggMjAxNyAyMDozMg0KPiBUbzogQ3VsbGVuIEplbm5pbmdzOyBSb25pIEV2ZW4NCj4gQ2M6IHBl cmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtQZXJjXSBEVE1GIGluIERvdWJsZQ0KPiANCj4g T24gOC8xNS8xNyAxMjoyMSBQTSwgQ3VsbGVuIEplbm5pbmdzIHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSSBo YXZlIG5vIHN0cm9uZyBvcGluaW9uIGlmIHdlIHNob3VsZCBhZGQgdGhpcyB0byB0aGUgZHJhZnQg b3Igbm90Lg0KPiA+IFdoZW4gSSByZWFkIGl0IHdyaXR0ZW4gdXAsIEl0IHNlZW1zIHdheSBvdXRz aWRlIHRoZSBzY29wZSBvZiBkb3VibGUNCj4gPiBhbmQgbW9yZSBsaWtlIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0 IHdvdWxkIGJlIGF0IGEgc3lzdGVtIGxldmVsLiBCdXQgdGhlIFBSIGlmDQo+ID4gd2Ugd2FudCB0 byBhZG9wdCBpdCBpcyBhdA0KPiA+DQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL2lldGYvcGVyYy13 Zy9wdWxsLzEzMA0KPiA+DQo+IExHVE0uDQo+IA0KPiAvYQ0K
OK then, I guess we'd have to wait for IETF last= call

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 16:35= , Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> = wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 15:24, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
Hello Emil
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The votes that went to deciding consensus inclu= des both the =C2=A0in-room and on-list responses towards the proposa= l.=C2=A0 We had a strong consensus in the favor of the proposal in the room= at the IETF 99 meeting (as reflected in the minutes and recordings).
=

Hope this clarifies your question

=
Well no, of course it doesn't. It is unclear from the= recording exactly how much support there was during the meeting and there = are no mails in support of this proposal on the list.=C2=A0

There are some discussing it and some= opposing it.=C2=A0

So w= hy you choose to determine consensus in support of this proposal remains a = mystery to me. (Well not really)

Emil
=



=
Cheers
Suhas


<= /div>

On Thu, Aug = 10, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Suhas,=C2=A0
=
I would really appreciate it if you could point= me to mails on this list, sent from the "substantially more people in= the favor" that express theor support?

I am struggling to find any.
Emil

On Thu, 10 Au= g 2017 at 10:26, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
=
Come again?

Regarding point 2, the only mail you received in response to your
request for confirmation were actually expressing the opposite.

Is this working group really becoming that much of a joke?
=


Hello Emil,

For calling the final consensus, the chairs considered the ag= gregate of inputs from the in-room consensus call at the IETF-99 and inputs= on the email list. In effect, there were substantially more people in the = favor of the proposal than against it. Hence following the IETF consensus p= rocess, the chairs made the final consensus call as described in

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/perc/4JTYOVGcE9KXXjQ7ks3YRm7LFBI<= /a>

The WG h= as heard your concerns, but unless there are new technical arguments to be = made, the consensus stands.

Regards

Chairs



On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Following up on the consensus confirmation email, the cha= irs have
> considered all the inputs received from the people in the room and the=
> inputs from people on the email list and determined there is consensus= for
> the following 2 items.
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>
> 2. Includes all the below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extension to= payload
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the ordering = of applying repair on
> the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD wil= l not be able to read
> DTMF info sent as media
>
> Thanks for your inputs.
>
> Cheers
> Chairs
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> At the IETF 99 meeting, we took hum on the following proposals and= there
>> was a strong consensus in the room in their favor, but we wish to = gather any
>> additional inputs on the list.
>> So, if there are any additional inputs that was not expressed in t= he room,
>> please send them to the list by 4th August.
>>
>> First Consensus Call:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Allow MD to modify the 'M' (marker) bit.
>>
>> Second Consensus called made includes all the following 3 proposal= s as a
>> singleton:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move the OHB information from header extensio= n to payload
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- RTX, RED and FlexFEC ordering : use the order= ing of applying repair
>> on the double-encrypted packet. (Option 'A' in the slides)=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- DTMF : PERC will only support E2E DTMF and MD= will not be able to
>> read DTMF info sent as media
>>
>> Here are the notes from the meeting:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.i= etf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-perc-01.txt
>>
>> Here are the slides corresponding to the above proposals :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-perc-double-01.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Perc Chairs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc
>



--
https://= jitsi.org
<= /div>
--
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