Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP NAT traversal draft updated

From: Johan Pouwelse <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 00:21:34 +0200

On 12 July 2011 03:14,  <[email-masked]> wrote:
> The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02
> Comments are welcome.

Dear Lichun,
During the last IETF meeting we briefly shared our comments on this draft:
  1) In general your work is a very thorough piece of work documenting
utilizing the well known NAT approaches.
  2) Please also add the recent advances and list the "connected
neighbor" approach, which does not require servers.

State-of-the-art in academic research in NAT traversal omitted from
"draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02" :
Usurp - http://www.springerlink.com/content/mg78hth7316t1027/
Nylon - http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/ICDCS.2009.44
Gozar - http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6418877h7205q7m/
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-middlebox-control-survey-01
https://fit.nokia.com/lars/papers/2010-imc-hgw-study.pdf

In 2005 we started working on the approach which:
 1) do not require any server
 2) supports coordination peers which are NATted
 3) utilize the "connected neighbor" approach.

Our deployed Open Source code achieved in the wild a UDP connection
success rate of over 80%.
Scientific publication: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2008828
Report: http://pds.twi.tudelft.nl/reports/2010/PDS-2010-007.pdf
2005 design report:
http://www.tribler.org/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/NATtraversal/remko_1035363_Onderzoekstaak_-_Final_Version.pdf

Measurements show that this light-weight approach is less complex and
reduces overhead, without significant performance loss. Could you
possible add this option to your draft or refer to this alternative
light-weight approach?

Greetings, johan.

On 12 July 2011 03:14,  <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Hi, all
>
> The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02
> The major change of this version is detailing extensions to PPSP.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
>
>
> BR
> Lichun
>
>
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From: lichun li <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:59:55 +0800

Hi, Johan

Thank you for your information and suggestion. I will take some time
to read these documents.

Other than using dedicated STUN/TURN server, the PPSP NAT traversal
draft also proposes to use peer (STUN peer, TURN peer and proxy peer)
to provide NAT traversal services. I think that's one kind of
"connected neighbor" approach?

I think light-weight approach is a good idea. As long as the download
rate and QOE is satisfied, P2P streaming system doesn't require any
two peers can build connection. Current NAT traversal solutions in the
draft all use ICE, which may be a little complicated. I am considering
adding a simple solution not using ICE. What do you think?

BR
Lichun

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From: Johan Pouwelse <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:57:58 -0400

> adding a simple solution not using ICE. What do you think?

Excellent. Yes, including both the standard ICE solution plus a "light
weight" option sounds like a solid step forward; especially for future
(LTE) mobile phones support...
  -johan