From a.bakker@vu.nl Mon Apr 2 05:47:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A644C21F8567 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2012 05:47:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zmJph6NUqemA for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2012 05:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5779121F8513 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2012 05:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:47:13 +0200 Received: from [130.37.193.73] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:47:11 +0200 Message-ID: <4F799FE1.1020703@cs.vu.nl> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:47:29 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ppsp References: <4F16A1EF.4060501@cs.vu.nl> <320C4182454E96478DC039F2C481987204A4D07528@MOPESMBX01.eu.thmulti.com> <4F1D1F72.5040801@cs.vu.nl> <320C4182454E96478DC039F2C481987204C4170C2C@MOPESMBX01.eu.thmulti.com> <320C4182454E96478DC039F2C481987204CCDC1870@MOPESMBX01.eu.thmulti.com> In-Reply-To: <320C4182454E96478DC039F2C481987204CCDC1870@MOPESMBX01.eu.thmulti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Proposal to resolve Issue 10 + 13 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:47:16 -0000 On 29/03/2012 14:56, Picconi Fabio wrote: > Hi, > > So, a follow-up of what I said during the Paris meeting: > > 1) Regarding the content addressing mechanism, I think the mandatory > solution should be one which is as simple as possible without > compromising efficiency. Hi all the merits of bins are some efficiency gain (bins save 1 integer over (start,end) to address a range) and an overall more elegant design. With bins there is one unit of addressing in the whole system that is used for chunk availability maps, requesting data and for addressing the hashes inside the Merkle hash tree (MHT) needed for integrity protection. The Merkle hash tree is the best known solution for low latency integrity checking for video-on-demand and hence is proposed to be mandatory (see below). With (start,end) and MHTs mandatory we need a new scheme to address the nodes in the tree, resulting two units in the system. IMHO, Binary trees is 1st year computer science stuff ;o) > 2) Regarding integrity checking, > > Since sign-all is *significantly simpler to implement* that > Merkle-trees, and the group seemed headed towards making merkle-trees > mandatory anyway, I would suggest making support for both mandatory, > thus supporting low-delay applications. > I agree. For live streaming, sign-all and Wong-Lam's signining of Merkle trees are the two options to consider. Hence my proposal to add a reference to the Wong-Lam paper [DIGSIGFLOW] to Sec. 5 on Feb 14th. For video-on-demand, the Merkle hash trees as described in the draft are the way to go, IMHO, as they allow fast time-till-playback compared to e.g. BitTorrent's approach (=download all hashes beforehand) CU, Arno [DIGSIGFLOW] Chung Kei Wong and Simon S. Lam. "Digital Signatures for Flows and Multicasts". IEEE/ACM Transactions on Networking, Volume 7, Issue 4, pp. 502-513, Aug 1999. http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/90.793005 From li.lichun1@zte.com.cn Mon Apr 9 02:46:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180BC21F8523; Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:46:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mGI2EMdZ2PQa; Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D309821F845C; Mon, 9 Apr 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YWwmbmJzcDtzZW5kZXIuDQpUaGlzJm5ic3A7bWVzc2FnZSZuYnNwO2hhcyZuYnNwO2JlZW4mbmJz cDtzY2FubmVkJm5ic3A7Zm9yJm5ic3A7dmlydXNlcyZuYnNwO2FuZCZuYnNwO1NwYW0mbmJzcDti eSZuYnNwO1pURSZuYnNwO0FudGktU3BhbSZuYnNwO3N5c3RlbS4NCjwvcHJlPg== --=_alternative 0035B23A482579DB_=-- From a.bakker@vu.nl Tue Apr 10 02:49:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8B221F882D for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 02:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.104 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.104 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.800, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYg+8Zr1Dlgw for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 02:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FEBD21F8826 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 02:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:49:54 +0200 Received: from [130.37.193.73] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:49:53 +0200 Message-ID: <4F84025C.3040206@cs.vu.nl> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:50:20 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ppsp References: <2012033016511639412036@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2012033016511639412036@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] re-charter issue discussion(cont'):transport mechanism X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:57 -0000 On 30/03/2012 10:53, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi all, > To continue the re-charter discussion in PPSP WG meeting, I would like > to discuss more on the transport mechanism issue. > I happen to know in RTCWeb, the transport protocol between two peer > browsers seems to been decided: For media part, srtp/rtp over UDP(I am > not quite sure of if it is accurate). For data transmit, Datagrams over > SCTP over DTLS over UDP. > My question is: If this related to PPSP transport mechanism? Or totally > two different things?Any different requirements? Just to provide such > info to incur discussion. Hi all to keep the re-charter discussion brief could we perhaps split the discussion into (1) where media transport aspects should be discussed and (2) what the transport actually is. For (1), I'd like to keep it inside the peer protocol spec, as mentioned before. For (2): The RTCWEB work is definitely relevant, so thanks for keeping us up-to-date, Yunfei. There are of course differences, notably PPSP is also about time-shifted streaming, i.e. video-on-demand. This means real-time is not always relevant and we also need to think about post-view seeding. The latter makes LEDBAT support important. Furthermore, sender authentication and privacy may be less important for us than in the RTCWEB teleconferencing scenarios. Also PPSP is more about one-to-many than RTCWEB, although they may be looking at that too. I think we should definitely advocate our work in RTCWEB, but in Canada they weren't ready for P2P scenarios yet, and I haven't followed their progress since. CU, Arno From a.bakker@vu.nl Tue Apr 10 04:19:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0208F21F85F6; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 04:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qzMHP8fPwuBr; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 04:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24CA121F85F4; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 04:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:19:19 +0200 Received: from [130.37.193.73] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:19:19 +0200 Message-ID: <4F841752.4080908@cs.vu.nl> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:19:46 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Cc: ppsp , ppsp-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Proposal to resolve Issue 10 + 13 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:19:22 -0000 On 09/04/2012 11:46, li.lichun1@zte.com.cn wrote: > > According pplive's paper, the unit of content advertisement and the unit > of content transmission used by pplive are different. pplive uses > 2MB-size chuck as the unit of content advertisement, and 1KB as the unit > of content transmission. > Do we need to adopt this method to reduce MHT size and bitmap size? > Hi the size of the Merkle Hash Tree (MHT) depends on the transmission unit. Availability could be reported in larger units, as a way to compress the map. But some variants of run-length encoding may work as well. For example, note that people watch the content linearly in PPSP. So the first part of the availability map will be filled, and is therefore easily compressible. The current bin numbers (on-the-wire) and binmaps (self-compressing data structure for storing a bitmap in-core) can compress such ranges. This maybe something to discuss in the usage guide, as the peer protocol will support multiple chunk addressing schemes. CU, Arno From wes@mti-systems.com Tue Apr 10 16:40:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1131911E810C for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7s3npyA3SKKl for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omr14.networksolutionsemail.com (omr14.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A69B11E80DE for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-omr10 (mail.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.50]) by omr14.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q3ANe0Bp014113 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:40:00 -0400 Authentication-Results: cm-omr10 smtp.user=wes@mti-systems.com; auth=pass (PLAIN) X-Authenticated-UID: wes@mti-systems.com Received: from [69.81.143.202] ([69.81.143.202:42911] helo=[192.168.1.106]) by cm-omr10 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.41 r(31179/31189)) with ESMTPA id B3/EA-30492-0D4C48F4; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:40:00 -0400 Message-ID: <4F84C4CD.3040603@mti-systems.com> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:39:57 -0400 From: Wesley Eddy Organization: MTI Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120327 Thunderbird/11.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arno@cs.vu.nl References: <2012033016511639412036@chinamobile.com> <4F84025C.3040206@cs.vu.nl> In-Reply-To: <4F84025C.3040206@cs.vu.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ppsp Subject: Re: [ppsp] re-charter issue discussion(cont'):transport mechanism X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:40:03 -0000 On 4/10/2012 5:50 AM, Arno Bakker wrote: > On 30/03/2012 10:53, zhangyunfei wrote: >> Hi all, >> To continue the re-charter discussion in PPSP WG meeting, I would like >> to discuss more on the transport mechanism issue. >> I happen to know in RTCWeb, the transport protocol between two peer >> browsers seems to been decided: For media part, srtp/rtp over UDP(I am >> not quite sure of if it is accurate). For data transmit, Datagrams over >> SCTP over DTLS over UDP. >> My question is: If this related to PPSP transport mechanism? Or totally >> two different things?Any different requirements? Just to provide such >> info to incur discussion. > > Hi all > > to keep the re-charter discussion brief could we perhaps split the > discussion into (1) where media transport aspects should be discussed > and (2) what the transport actually is. > > For (1), I'd like to keep it inside the peer protocol spec, as mentioned > before. > > For (2): The RTCWEB work is definitely relevant, so thanks for keeping > us up-to-date, Yunfei. There are of course differences, notably PPSP is > also about time-shifted streaming, i.e. video-on-demand. This means > real-time is not always relevant and we also need to think about > post-view seeding. The latter makes LEDBAT support important. > Furthermore, sender authentication and privacy may be less important for > us than in the RTCWEB teleconferencing scenarios. > Also PPSP is more about one-to-many than RTCWEB, although they may be > looking at that too. > > I think we should definitely advocate our work in RTCWEB, but in Canada > they weren't ready for P2P scenarios yet, and I haven't followed their > progress since. > In my view, PPSP should not be distracted by RTCWEB or go to any effort to mimic its decisions. The methods of operating are very different between the RTCWEB browser-to-browser media flows between the involved users and the PPSP method of using a tracker to find peers in a swarm, and then doing chunk-based retrieval of the media from the swarm rather than direct from a source like RTCWEB does. I am in agreement with Arno's point 1 that media transport within the peer protocol is highly desirable. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Apr 12 01:39:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6212721F861F; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:39:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -88.128 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-88.128 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqYT90P8nsCX; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29E621F8620; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B56BE5B2; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 16:39:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE8DE448; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 16:39:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2012041216394274-14454 ; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 16:39:42 +0800 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 16:39:36 +0800 From: zhangyunfei To: li.lichun1 , "arno@cs.vu.nl" , "Picconi Fabio" References: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.85[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2012041216393612240745@chinamobile.com> X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-12 16:39:43, 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Hi all,
     Please see inline. Thanks.
 
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
 
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA li.lichun1
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2012-04-09 17:46
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA arno
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp<= /A>; ppsp-bounces
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Proposal to resolve Issue 1= 0 +=20 13

According=20 pplive's paper, the unit of content advertisement and the unit of content=20 transmission used by pplive are different. pplive uses 2MB-size chuck as t= he=20 unit of content advertisement, and 1KB as the unit of content=20 transmission.
Do we need to ad= opt this=20 method to reduce MHT size and bitmap size?




<= FONT=20 size=3D2>ppsp-bounces@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2012-04-02 20:47:29:

&g= t; On 29/03/2012=20 14:56, Picconi Fabio wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > So,= a=20 follow-up of what I said during the Paris meeting:
> >
> &g= t; 1)=20 Regarding the content addressing mechanism, I think the mandatory
> = >=20 solution should be one which is as simple as possible without
> >= =20 compromising efficiency.
>
> Hi all
>
> the meri= ts of=20 bins are some efficiency gain (bins save 1 integer over
> (start,en= d) to=20 address a range) and an overall more elegant design.
>
> With= bins=20 there is one unit of addressing in the whole system that
> is used f= or=20 chunk availability maps, requesting data and for addressing
> the h= ashes=20 inside the Merkle hash tree (MHT) needed for integrity
> protection= . The=20 Merkle hash tree is the best known solution for low
> latency integ= rity=20 checking for video-on-demand and hence is proposed to
> be mandator= y (see=20 below).
>
> With (start,end) and MHTs mandatory we need a new= =20 scheme to address the
> nodes in the tree, resulting two units in t= he=20 system.
>
> IMHO, Binary trees is 1st year computer science s= tuff=20 ;o)
= [Yunfei] 
Compared=20 with range expression, Bin numbering and Binmap may has some ineffici= ency=20 in some cases. For example,Peer A holds chunk #0,4,8,12, the binmap c= annot=20 be expressed by a bin number in higher layer, say, 1,3,7, etc.. In this ca= se,=20 the efficiency of MHT cannot be realized.So can we say that bin = has=20 merits of efficiency?
 
>
>
> &g= t; 2)=20 Regarding integrity checking,
> >
> > Since sign-all is=20 *significantly simpler to implement* that
> > Merkle-trees, and t= he=20 group seemed headed towards making merkle-trees
> > mandatory any= way, I=20 would suggest making support for both mandatory,
> > thus support= ing=20 low-delay applications.
> >
>
> I agree. For live=20 streaming, sign-all and Wong-Lam's signining of Merkle
> trees are = the=20 two options to consider. Hence my proposal to add a
> reference to = the=20 Wong-Lam paper [DIGSIGFLOW] to Sec. 5 on Feb 14th. For
> video-on-d= emand,=20 the Merkle hash trees as described in the draft are the
> way to go= ,=20 IMHO, as they allow fast time-till-playback compared to e.g.
>=20 BitTorrent's approach (=3Ddownload all hashes beforehand)
>
>= =20 CU,
>       Arno
>
>
> [DIGSIGFLO= W]=20 Chung Kei Wong and Simon S. Lam. "Digital Signatures for
> Flows and= =20 Multicasts". IEEE/ACM Transactions on Networking,
> Volume 7,  = Issue=20 4, pp. 502-513, Aug 1999.
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/90.793005
&= gt;=20 _______________________________________________
> ppsp mailing=20 list
> ppsp@ietf.org
>=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>

-------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information&= nbsp;contained in this mail is solely proper= ty of the sender's organization. This mail&n= bsp;communication is confidential. Recipients named&nb= sp;above are obligated to maintain secrecy a= nd are not permitted to disclose the co= ntents of this communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with&nb= sp;it are confidential and intended solely f= or the use of the individual or entity&= nbsp;to whom they are addressed. If you = ;have received this email in error please&nb= sp;notify the originator of the message. Any=  views expressed in this message are th= ose of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses&nb= sp;and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.
------=_001_NextPart352283556434_=------ From a.bakker@vu.nl Thu Apr 12 01:50:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD70C21F865C for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.31 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.681, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QrVEEMtbD78G for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FAD21F865B for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:50:32 +0200 Received: from [130.37.193.73] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:50:32 +0200 Message-ID: <4F869775.6010007@cs.vu.nl> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:51:01 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ppsp References: <2012041216393612240745@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2012041216393612240745@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?u9i4tDogUmU6ICBQcm9wb3NhbCB0byByZXNvbHZlIElz?= =?gb2312?b?c3VlIDEwICsgMTM=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:50:39 -0000 On 12/04/2012 10:39, zhangyunfei wrote: > /[Yunfei]/ > Compared with range expression, Bin numbering and Binmap may has some > inefficiency in some cases. For example,Peer A holds chunk #0,4,8,12, > the binmap cannot be expressed by a bin number in higher layer, say, > 1,3,7, etc.. In this case, the efficiency of MHT cannot be realized.So > can we say that bin has merits of efficiency? > You are right that in some cases the compression doesn't work, but in many it does. To avoid confusion consider this tree: 7 / \ / \ / \ / \ 3 11 / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ 1 5 9 13 / \ / \ / \ / \ 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 0-2, 0-6, 8-14, etc. can be expressed by a single bin (1,3,11 resp.) 4-10 cannot, as that range lies in two different subtrees, so that requires 2 bin numbers (5+9). CU, Arno From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Apr 17 18:48:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F92421F8473 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.075 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.075 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.947, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c2U1OwJp-oZL for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27B621F846F for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C37EC88; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:48:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA94BEC86; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:48:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.43.220]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2012041809482594-4257 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:48:25 +0800 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:48:22 +0800 From: zhangyunfei To: ppsp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.85[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com> X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-18 09:48:25, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-18 09:48:26, Serialize complete at 2012-04-18 09:48:26 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart087174762504_=----" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18846.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--15.805-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--15.805-7.0-31-10;No--15.805-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No;No Subject: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: zhangyunfei List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:48:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart087174762504_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SGkgYWxsLA0KICAgIFRoZSBtaW51dGVzIGZvciBJRVRGODMgaGFzIGJlZW4gdXBsb2FkZWQgYW5k IHlvdSBjYW4gZmluZCB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgaW4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9wcm9jZWVk aW5ncy84My9taW51dGVzL21pbnV0ZXMtODMtcHBzcC5kb2N4LiBQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IGl0IGFu ZCBsZXQgU3RlZmFubyBhbmQgbWUga25vdyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhbnkgY29tbWVudHMgb24gdGhh dC4gVGhhbmtzIENocmlzdGlhbiBmb3IgdGFraW5nIHRoZSBub3Rlcy4NCiAgICAgU3RlZmFubyBh bmQgSSBhcmUgY3JlYXRpbmcgdGlja2V0cyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgbm90ZXMsIHdoaWNoIG5lZWQg dG8gYmUgZGVjaWRlZCBpbiB0aGUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0LkknbGwgcG9zdCB0aGUgdGlja2V0cyBv bmNlIGZpbmlzaGVkLg0KDQpCUg0KWXVuZmVpDQoNCg0KDQp6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaQ== ------=_001_NextPart087174762504_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Hi all,
    The minutes for IETF83 h= as been=20 uploaded and you can find the document in h= ttp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/minutes/minutes-83-ppsp.docx.=20 Please review it and let Stefano and me know if you have any comments on t= hat.=20 Thanks Christian for taking the notes.
     Stefano and I are creating tickets= based=20 on the notes, which need to be decided in the mailing list.I'll post the t= ickets=20 once finished.
 
BR
Yunfei
zhangyunfei
------=_001_NextPart087174762504_=------ From a.bakker@vu.nl Tue Apr 17 23:13:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562EF21F85BB for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.987, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hCN0DzTMWglb for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368B621F85A2 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:12:58 +0200 Received: from [109.36.73.106] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:12:57 +0200 Message-ID: <4F8E5B8A.1040202@cs.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:13:30 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 06:13:04 -0000 On 18/04/2012 03:48, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi all, > The minutes for IETF83 has been uploaded and you can find the document > in http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/minutes/minutes-83-ppsp.docx. > Please review it and let Stefano and me know if you have any comments on > that. Thanks Christian for taking the notes. > Stefano and I are creating tickets based on the notes, which need to be > decided in the mailing list.I'll post the tickets once finished. Hi some small corrections: * "Martin: Using the first response sending data. Is it really good to wait 200ms for the data" I think "good" should be "bad". * Mark Stuart is from Pioneer Digital Design Ltd., not TUDelft. There are a lot of promises of taking things to the list, but only chunk addressing has been. Please start the appropriate discussions so we can move the text forward. CU, Arno From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Apr 17 23:53:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE13B21F85A7 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.044, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSAWF6tHdohc for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610C221F85A3 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB305ECD4; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:53:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF714ECCC; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:53:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.43.220]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2012041814534318-12295 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:53:43 +0800 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:53:39 +0800 From: zhangyunfei To: "arno@cs.vu.nl" , ppsp References: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com>, <4F8E5B8A.1040202@cs.vu.nl> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.85[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2012041814533970608944@chinamobile.com> X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-18 14:53:43, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-18 14:53:44, Serialize complete at 2012-04-18 14:53:44 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart081813203517_=----" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18846.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.647-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.647-7.0-31-10;No--25.647-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No;No Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: zhangyunfei List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 06:53:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart081813203517_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQXJubywNCiAgICBUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0aW9uLiBJJ2xsIGZpeCB0aGUgZXJy b3IuDQogICAgIE15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBp cyB0aGF0IGJlY2F1c2UgY2h1bmsgYWRkcmVzc2luZyBpcyB0aGUgYmFzaWMgb2YgZXZlcnl0aGlu ZyBpbiBwZWVyIHByb3RvY29sLCBpdCBiZWNvbWVzIGZvY3VzIG9mIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLiBP bmx5IHdoZW4gd2UgIGdldCBjb25zZW5zdXMgb24gdGhpcyBjYW4gd2UgZ28gZnVydGhlci4gVGhl IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGRpZG4ndCBnZXQgdGhlIGNvbmNsdXNpb24gdG8gYWRv cHQgd2hpY2ggY2h1bmsgYWRkcmVzc2luZyBzY2hlbWUsIGUuZy4sIHJhbmdlIGJhc2VkIG9yIE1I VCBiYXNlZCBhcyB0aGUgYmFzZS4gVGhpcyBhZmZlY3RzIG90aGVyIHByb2JsZW1zIGRpc2N1c3Np b24uIA0KICAgICBJIGVuY291cmFnZSB0byBoYXZlIG1vcmUgZnJ1aXRmdWwgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMg b24gdGhpcyBiYXNlIHNlbGVjdGlvbi4gSWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gY29uc2Vuc3VzIGFmdGVyIGEg Y2VydGFpbiBvZiB0aW1lKHNheSwgc2V2ZXJhbCB3ZWVrcyksIHdlIG1heSBoYXZlIHRvIHJlc29y dCB0byB0aGUgbWVhbnMsIGUuZy4sIHBvbGxpbmcsIHdoaWNoIGlzIHRoZSBsZWFzdCB3ZSdkIGxp a2UgdG8gdXNlLg0KDQpCUg0KWXVuZmVpDQoNCg0KDQoNCnpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQoNCkZyb206IEFy bm8gQmFra2VyDQpEYXRlOiAyMDEyLTA0LTE4IDE0OjEzDQpUbzogcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3Vi amVjdDogUmU6IFtwcHNwXSBQUFNQIG5vdGVzIGZvciBJRVRGIDgzDQpPbiAxOC8wNC8yMDEyIDAz OjQ4LCB6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaSB3cm90ZToNCj4gSGkgYWxsLA0KPiBUaGUgbWludXRlcyBmb3IgSUVU RjgzIGhhcyBiZWVuIHVwbG9hZGVkIGFuZCB5b3UgY2FuIGZpbmQgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50DQo+IGlu IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvcHJvY2VlZGluZ3MvODMvbWludXRlcy9taW51dGVzLTgzLXBw c3AuZG9jeC4NCj4gUGxlYXNlIHJldmlldyBpdCBhbmQgbGV0IFN0ZWZhbm8gYW5kIG1lIGtub3cg aWYgeW91IGhhdmUgYW55IGNvbW1lbnRzIG9uDQo+IHRoYXQuIFRoYW5rcyBDaHJpc3RpYW4gZm9y IHRha2luZyB0aGUgbm90ZXMuDQo+IFN0ZWZhbm8gYW5kIEkgYXJlIGNyZWF0aW5nIHRpY2tldHMg YmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIG5vdGVzLCB3aGljaCBuZWVkIHRvIGJlDQo+IGRlY2lkZWQgaW4gdGhlIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdC5JJ2xsIHBvc3QgdGhlIHRpY2tldHMgb25jZSBmaW5pc2hlZC4NCg0KSGkNCg0K c29tZSBzbWFsbCBjb3JyZWN0aW9uczoNCiogIk1hcnRpbjogVXNpbmcgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHJlc3Bv bnNlIHNlbmRpbmcgZGF0YS4gSXMgaXQgcmVhbGx5IGdvb2QgdG8NCiAgIHdhaXQgMjAwbXMgZm9y IHRoZSBkYXRhIg0KDQogICBJIHRoaW5rICJnb29kIiBzaG91bGQgYmUgImJhZCIuDQoNCiogTWFy ayBTdHVhcnQgaXMgZnJvbSBQaW9uZWVyIERpZ2l0YWwgRGVzaWduIEx0ZC4sIG5vdCBUVURlbGZ0 Lg0KDQpUaGVyZSBhcmUgYSBsb3Qgb2YgcHJvbWlzZXMgb2YgdGFraW5nIHRoaW5ncyB0byB0aGUg bGlzdCwgYnV0IG9ubHkgY2h1bmsgDQphZGRyZXNzaW5nIGhhcyBiZWVuLiBQbGVhc2Ugc3RhcnQg dGhlIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIHNvIHdlIGNhbiANCm1vdmUgdGhlIHRleHQgZm9y d2FyZC4NCg0KQ1UsDQogICAgICBBcm5vDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KcHBzcCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCnBwc3BAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcA== ------=_001_NextPart081813203517_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi Arno,
    Thanks for the correction. I'll fix the error.
     My understanding about the current discussio= n is=20 that because chunk addressing is the basic of everything in peer protocol,= it=20 becomes focus of the discussion. Only when we  get consensus on this = can we=20 go further. The mailing list discussion didn't get the conclusion to adopt= which=20 chunk addressing scheme, e.g., range based or MHT based as the base. This=20 affects other problems discussion.
     I encourage to have more fruitful discussion= s on=20 this base selection. If there is no consensus after a certain of time(say,= =20 several weeks), we may have to resort to the means, e.g., polling, which i= s the=20 least we'd like to use.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
 
From: Arno Bakker
Date: 2012-04-18 14:13
To: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83
On 18/04/2012 03:48, zhangyunfei wrote:
> Hi all,
> The minutes for IETF83 has been&nb= sp;uploaded and you can find the document
> in http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/minutes/minutes-= 83-ppsp.docx.
> Please review it and let Stefano&n= bsp;and me know if you have any comment= s on
> that. Thanks Christian for taking = the notes.
> Stefano and I are creating tickets=  based on the notes, which need to = ;be
> decided in the mailing list.I'll p= ost the tickets once finished.
 
Hi
 
some small corrections:
* "Martin: Using the first response sen= ding data. Is it really good to
   wait 200ms for the data"
 
   I think "good" should be "= bad".
 
* Mark Stuart is from Pioneer Digital&n= bsp;Design Ltd., not TUDelft.
 
There are a lot of promises of tak= ing things to the list, but only chunk&= nbsp;
addressing has been. Please start the a= ppropriate discussions so we can 
move the text forward.
 
CU,
      Arno
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
------=_001_NextPart081813203517_=------ From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Apr 18 00:00:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A5821F85A2 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.655, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xu7sgmVevfBB for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D0E21F8594 for ; 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boundary="----=_001_NextPart818615801852_=----" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18846.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--19.475-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--19.475-7.0-31-10;No--19.475-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No;No Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?u9i4tDogUmU6ICBQcm9wb3NhbCB0byByZXNvbHZlIElz?= =?gb2312?b?c3VlIDEwICsgMTM=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: zhangyunfei List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:00:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart818615801852_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQXJubywNCiAgICBJIHRoaW5rIEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB5b3VyIGV4YW1wbGUuIFNvIGlzIHRo ZXJlIHNvbWUgZmlndXJlcyB0byBzaG93IHRoYXQgdGhlIGNhc2UgSSByYWlzZWQgaXMgYSBzbWFs bC1wcm9iYWJpbGl0eSBjYXNlPyBUaGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGNvbnZpbmNpbmcgdG8gc2hvdyB0aGUg ZWZmaWNpZW5jeSBvZiBNSFQgbWV0aG9kLg0KICAgIEJUVywgSSByZW1lbWJlciB0aGF0IGluIGxh c3QgaW50ZXJpbSBtZWV0aW5nLCB5b3UgcmVwbGllZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBtYXBwaW5nIGJldHdlZW4g YmlubWFwIGFuZCByYW5nZSBleHByZXNzaW9uIGlzIHF1aXRlIGVhc3kuIENvdWxkIHlvdSBlbGFi b3JhdGUgdGhpcyBtYXBwaW5nPyBUaGFua3MuDQoNCkJSDQpZdW5mZWkNCg0KDQoNCg0Kemhhbmd5 dW5mZWkNCg0KRnJvbTogQXJubyBCYWtrZXINCkRhdGU6IDIwMTItMDQtMTIgMTY6NTENClRvOiBw cHNwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3Bwc3Bdu9i4tDogUmU6IFByb3Bvc2FsIHRvIHJlc29sdmUgSXNz dWUgMTAgKyAxMw0KT24gMTIvMDQvMjAxMiAxMDozOSwgemhhbmd5dW5mZWkgd3JvdGU6DQo+IC9b WXVuZmVpXS8NCj4gQ29tcGFyZWQgd2l0aCByYW5nZSBleHByZXNzaW9uLCBCaW4gbnVtYmVyaW5n IGFuZCBCaW5tYXAgbWF5IGhhcyBzb21lIA0KPiBpbmVmZmljaWVuY3kgaW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcy4g Rm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsUGVlciBBIGhvbGRzIGNodW5rICMwLDQsOCwxMiwgDQo+IHRoZSBiaW5tYXAg Y2Fubm90IGJlIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBieSBhIGJpbiBudW1iZXIgaW4gaGlnaGVyIGxheWVyLCBzYXks IA0KPiAxLDMsNywgZXRjLi4gSW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLCB0aGUgZWZmaWNpZW5jeSBvZiBNSFQgY2Fu bm90IGJlIHJlYWxpemVkLlNvIA0KPiBjYW4gd2Ugc2F5IHRoYXQgYmluIGhhcyBtZXJpdHMgb2Yg ZWZmaWNpZW5jeT8NCj4gDQoNCllvdSBhcmUgcmlnaHQgdGhhdCBpbiBzb21lIGNhc2VzIHRoZSBj b21wcmVzc2lvbiBkb2Vzbid0IHdvcmssDQpidXQgaW4gbWFueSBpdCBkb2VzLiBUbyBhdm9pZCBj b25mdXNpb24gY29uc2lkZXIgdGhpcyB0cmVlOg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICA3DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gXA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgLyAgICAgXA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gICAgICAgICBcDQogICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgIC8gICAgICAgICAgICAgXA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgMyAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAxMQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAvIFwgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gXA0KICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIC8gICBcICAgICAgICAgICAgLyAgIFwNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gICAgIFwgICAg ICAgICAgLyAgICAgXA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxICAgICAgIDUgICAgICAgIDkgICAgICAgMTMN CiAgICAgICAgICAgICAvIFwgICAgIC8gXCAgICAgIC8gXCAgICAgIC8gXA0KICAgICAgICAgICAg MCAgIDIgICA0ICAgNiAgICA4ICAgMTAgIDEyICAgMTQNCg0KMC0yLCAwLTYsIDgtMTQsIGV0Yy4g Y2FuIGJlIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBieSBhIHNpbmdsZSBiaW4gKDEsMywxMSByZXNwLikNCjQtMTAgY2Fu bm90LCBhcyB0aGF0IHJhbmdlIGxpZXMgaW4gdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBzdWJ0cmVlcywgc28gdGhh dA0KcmVxdWlyZXMgMiBiaW4gbnVtYmVycyAoNSs5KS4NCg0KQ1UsDQogICAgQXJubw0KX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCnBwc3AgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQpwcHNwQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L3Bwc3A= ------=_001_NextPart818615801852_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi Arno,
    I think I understand your example. So is there som= e=20 figures to show that the case I raised is a small-probability case? That w= ould=20 be convincing to show the efficiency of MHT method.
    BTW, I remember that in last interim meeting, you=20 replied that the mapping between binmap and range expression is quite easy= .=20 Could you elaborate this mapping? Thanks.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
 
From: Arno Bakker
Date: 2012-04-12 16:51
To: ppsp
Subject: Re: [ppsp]=BB=D8=B8=B4: Re: Proposal to resolve = Issue 10 +=20 13
On 12/04/2012 10:39, zhangyunfei wrote:
> /[Yunfei]/
> Compared with range expression, Bin&nbs= p;numbering and Binmap may has some 
> inefficiency in some cases. For ex= ample,Peer A holds chunk #0,4,8,12, 
> the binmap cannot be expressed by&= nbsp;a bin number in higher layer, say, = ;
> 1,3,7, etc.. In this case, the&nbs= p;efficiency of MHT cannot be realized.So 
> can we say that bin has merit= s of efficiency?
> 
 
You are right that in some cases t= he compression doesn't work,
but in many it does. To avoid conf= usion consider this tree:
 
           &nb= sp;            = ;   7
           &nb= sp;            = ;  / \
           &nb= sp;            = ;/     \
           &nb= sp;          / &nbs= p;       \
           &nb= sp;        /   &nbs= p;         \
           &nb= sp;      3     &nbs= p;          11
           &nb= sp;     / \     &nb= sp;        / \
           &nb= sp;    /   \    &nb= sp;       /   \
           &nb= sp;   /     \   &nb= sp;      /     \
           &nb= sp;  1       5  &nb= sp;     9      &nbs= p;13
           &nb= sp; / \     / \   &= nbsp;  / \      / \
           &nb= sp;0   2   4   6  &= nbsp; 8   10  12   14
 
0-2, 0-6, 8-14, etc. can be expressed&n= bsp;by a single bin (1,3,11 resp.)
4-10 cannot, as that range lies in = ;two different subtrees, so that
requires 2 bin numbers (5+9).
 
CU,
    Arno
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------=_001_NextPart818615801852_=------ From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Apr 18 00:23:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDB621F858F for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.327, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Iq1UofGtyOa for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1229A21F856C for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1A1ECDA; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:23:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E657BECD6; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:23:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.43.220]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2012041815225958-13234 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:22:59 +0800 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:22:53 +0800 From: zhangyunfei To: "arno@cs.vu.nl" , ppsp References: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com>, <4F8E5B8A.1040202@cs.vu.nl> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.85[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2012041815225300068577@chinamobile.com> X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-18 15:22:59, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-18 15:23:01, Serialize complete at 2012-04-18 15:23:01 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart748338664055_=----" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18846.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--19.489-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--19.489-7.0-31-10;No--19.489-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No;No Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: zhangyunfei List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:23:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart748338664055_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQXJubywNCiAgIEkgcmVhZCB0aGUgbm90ZXMgYWdhaW4gYW5kIGl0IHNob3VsZCBiZSAiPyJt aXNzaW5nIGluIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlLCBpLmUuLCAgSXMgaXQgcmVhbGx5IGdv b2QgdG8gd2FpdCAyMDBtcyBmb3IgdGhlIGRhdGE/IFRoYW5rcy4NCkJSDQpZdW5mZWkNCg0KDQoN Cg0Kemhhbmd5dW5mZWkNCg0KRnJvbTogQXJubyBCYWtrZXINCkRhdGU6IDIwMTItMDQtMTggMTQ6 MTMNClRvOiBwcHNwQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3Bwc3BdIFBQU1Agbm90ZXMgZm9y IElFVEYgODMNCk9uIDE4LzA0LzIwMTIgMDM6NDgsIHpoYW5neXVuZmVpIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBIaSBh bGwsDQo+IFRoZSBtaW51dGVzIGZvciBJRVRGODMgaGFzIGJlZW4gdXBsb2FkZWQgYW5kIHlvdSBj YW4gZmluZCB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQNCj4gaW4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9wcm9jZWVkaW5n cy84My9taW51dGVzL21pbnV0ZXMtODMtcHBzcC5kb2N4Lg0KPiBQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IGl0IGFu ZCBsZXQgU3RlZmFubyBhbmQgbWUga25vdyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhbnkgY29tbWVudHMgb24NCj4g dGhhdC4gVGhhbmtzIENocmlzdGlhbiBmb3IgdGFraW5nIHRoZSBub3Rlcy4NCj4gU3RlZmFubyBh bmQgSSBhcmUgY3JlYXRpbmcgdGlja2V0cyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgbm90ZXMsIHdoaWNoIG5lZWQg dG8gYmUNCj4gZGVjaWRlZCBpbiB0aGUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0LkknbGwgcG9zdCB0aGUgdGlja2V0 cyBvbmNlIGZpbmlzaGVkLg0KDQpIaQ0KDQpzb21lIHNtYWxsIGNvcnJlY3Rpb25zOg0KKiAiTWFy dGluOiBVc2luZyB0aGUgZmlyc3QgcmVzcG9uc2Ugc2VuZGluZyBkYXRhLiBJcyBpdCByZWFsbHkg Z29vZCB0bw0KICAgd2FpdCAyMDBtcyBmb3IgdGhlIGRhdGEiDQoNCiAgIEkgdGhpbmsgImdvb2Qi IHNob3VsZCBiZSAiYmFkIi4NCg0KKiBNYXJrIFN0dWFydCBpcyBmcm9tIFBpb25lZXIgRGlnaXRh bCBEZXNpZ24gTHRkLiwgbm90IFRVRGVsZnQuDQoNClRoZXJlIGFyZSBhIGxvdCBvZiBwcm9taXNl cyBvZiB0YWtpbmcgdGhpbmdzIHRvIHRoZSBsaXN0LCBidXQgb25seSBjaHVuayANCmFkZHJlc3Np bmcgaGFzIGJlZW4uIFBsZWFzZSBzdGFydCB0aGUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgc28g d2UgY2FuIA0KbW92ZSB0aGUgdGV4dCBmb3J3YXJkLg0KDQpDVSwNCiAgICAgIEFybm8NCl9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpwcHNwIG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdA0KcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9wcHNw ------=_001_NextPart748338664055_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi Arno,
   I read the notes again and it should be "?"missing in th= e end=20 of the sentence,=20 i.e.,  Is it really good to wait 2= 00ms for the data?=20 Thanks.
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
 
From: Arno Bakker
Date: 2012-04-18 14:13
To: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83
On 18/04/2012 03:48, zhangyunfei wrote:
> Hi all,
> The minutes for IETF83 has been&nb= sp;uploaded and you can find the document
> in http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/minutes/minutes-= 83-ppsp.docx.
> Please review it and let Stefano&n= bsp;and me know if you have any comment= s on
> that. Thanks Christian for taking = the notes.
> Stefano and I are creating tickets=  based on the notes, which need to = ;be
> decided in the mailing list.I'll p= ost the tickets once finished.
 
Hi
 
some small corrections:
* "Martin: Using the first response sen= ding data. Is it really good to
   wait 200ms for the data"
 
   I think "good" should be "= bad".
 
* Mark Stuart is from Pioneer Digital&n= bsp;Design Ltd., not TUDelft.
 
There are a lot of promises of tak= ing things to the list, but only chunk&= nbsp;
addressing has been. Please start the a= ppropriate discussions so we can 
move the text forward.
 
CU,
      Arno
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------=_001_NextPart748338664055_=------ From a.bakker@vu.nl Wed Apr 18 00:30:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEF221F8628 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:30:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.14 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.14 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.065, BAYES_40=-0.185, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Va0hCb5v0Pgl for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F9A21F85A5 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB012B.vu.local (130.37.236.67) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:30:52 +0200 Received: from [130.161.211.249] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:30:52 +0200 Message-ID: <4F8E6DCE.90101@cs.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:31:26 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zhangyunfei References: <2012041216393612240745@chinamobile.com>, <4F869775.6010007@cs.vu.nl> <2012041815001581776052@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2012041815001581776052@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Cc: ppsp Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?u9i4tDogUmU6ICBQcm9wb3NhbCB0byByZXNvbHZlIElz?= =?gb2312?b?c3VlIDEwICsgMTM=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:30:55 -0000 On 18/04/2012 09:00, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi Arno, > I think I understand your example. So is there some figures to show that > the case I raised is a small-probability case? That would be convincing > to show the efficiency of MHT method. Hi Yunfei and all bin numbers can be more bandwidth efficient and lead to a more elegant design when used in combination with content integrity protection using Merkle hash trees, as there is one unit in the system then. The efficiency gains depend on usage. If you request chunks in groups of powers of 2 (e.g. 128 KiB, 256 KiB) as is common in computer networks, you only need single bin numbers. On the other hand, if you want to express a sliding window over the chunk space, especially when that is not a power of 2 wide, you need more than 1 bin number. > BTW, I remember that in last interim meeting, you replied that the > mapping between binmap and range expression is quite easy. Could you > elaborate this mapping? Thanks. Assuming ranges are intervals of a list of chunks numbered 0...N: for a given bin number "bin": startrange = (bin & (bin + 1))/2 endrange = ((bin | (bin + 1)) - 1)/2 Note that a binmap is a novel data structure to efficiently store a bitmap, which is not directly related to bin numbers. Regards, Arno From a.bakker@vu.nl Wed Apr 18 00:36:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF72E21F85D5 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.467, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T38UR0qibIls for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBE021F84AE for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB012B.vu.local (130.37.236.67) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:35:59 +0200 Received: from [130.161.211.249] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:35:59 +0200 Message-ID: <4F8E6EEC.4020908@cs.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:36:12 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zhangyunfei References: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com>, <4F8E5B8A.1040202@cs.vu.nl> <2012041815225300068577@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2012041815225300068577@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Cc: ppsp Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:36:01 -0000 On 18/04/2012 09:22, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi Arno, > I read the notes again and it should be "?"missing in the end of the > sentence, i.e., Is it really good to wait 200ms for the data? Thanks. > Hi then I don't understand the remark :-( I recall we were talking about adding an extra roundtrip to the handshake procedure between peer A and B to avoid remembering state at B initially. I don't like that because it adds to the time-till-playback and don't think it is necessary. AFAIK, Martin asked whether the extra roundtrip was actually that bad. Minor point though. CU, Arno From a.bakker@vu.nl Wed Apr 18 00:57:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAE621F855A for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.957, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8q9eT3Y9XTT for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28FC21F8539 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB012B.vu.local (130.37.236.67) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:57:32 +0200 Received: from [130.161.211.249] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:57:30 +0200 Message-ID: <4F8E740D.4070107@cs.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:58:05 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zhangyunfei References: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com>, <4F8E5B8A.1040202@cs.vu.nl> <2012041814533970608944@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2012041814533970608944@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Cc: ppsp Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:57:32 -0000 On 18/04/2012 08:53, zhangyunfei wrote: > I encourage to have more fruitful discussions on this base selection. If > there is no consensus after a certain of time(say, several weeks), we > may have to resort to the means, e.g., polling, which is the least we'd > like to use. Hi what does this mean for the issues raised months ago on which there has been no discussion here? * "Proposal to solve Issue #26: Evaluate the handshake procedure if it needs strengthening against "state-building attacks" Jan 25th * "Proposal to resolve Issue 17+20: Peer Address Exchange" Feb 14th * "New issues derived from PPSP requirements" Feb 14th * "SEC.REQ-4 Analysis" Feb 15th Can we set a deadline for May 9th (3 weeks) to resolve these before they go to polling? What does the polling procedure look like? Regards, Arno From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Apr 18 03:34:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1921F8592 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 03:34:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.157, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dy5dqr8Pbibt for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 03:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC78A21F858E for ; 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charset="gb2312"
Hi Arno=A3=AC
    Pls see inline.Thanks.
 
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
 
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Arno Bakker
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2012-04-18 15:31
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp<= /A>
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re:[ppsp]=BB=D8=B8=B4: Re: Proposal to= resolve Issue 10 +=20 13
On 18/04/2012 09:00, zhangyunfei wrote:
> Hi Arno,
> I think I understand your example.=  So is there some figures to show = that 
> the case I raised is a small-= probability case? That would be convincing <= /DIV>
> to show the efficiency of MHT = ;method.
 
Hi Yunfei and all
 
bin numbers can be more bandwidth effic= ient and lead to a more elegant
design when used in combination with co= ntent integrity protection using
Merkle hash trees, as there is one = ;unit in the system then. The
efficiency gains depend on usage. If yo= u request chunks in groups of
powers of 2 (e.g. 128 KiB, 256 KiB= ) as is common in computer networks,
you only need single bin numbers. On&nb= sp;the other hand, if you want to
express a sliding window over the chunk=  space, especially when that is
not a power of 2 wide, you need&nb= sp;more than 1 bin number.
 
[Yunfei] This is what I worry about. We cann= ot=20 assure that each time we can request
chunks in groups of powers of 2, as it's=20 dependent on what the serving peers have, which
is hard to ensure that the number of availab= le=20 chunks being powers of 2. In such cases, requsting
a range of chunks needs no more bits than bi= n=20 number. What's worse, if the chunks peer A has is
sparsely distributed, i.e., the chunkmap is = likely=20 to be 10001011110, bin numbering needs more bits.
 
> BTW, I remember that in last = interim meeting, you replied that the 
> mapping between binmap and range e= xpression is quite easy. Could you 
> elaborate this mapping? Thanks.
 
Assuming ranges are intervals of a list=  of chunks numbered 0...N: for a
given bin number "bin":
 
startrange =3D (bin & (bin + 1))/2<= /DIV>
endrange =3D ((bin | (bin + 1)) -&= nbsp;1)/2
[Yunfei] I need more time to reply on this:)=
Note that a binmap is a novel data=  structure to efficiently store a
bitmap, which is not directly related t= o bin numbers.
 
Regards,
    Arno
 
------=_001_NextPart734332068654_=------ From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Fri Apr 20 08:20:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCD621F8795 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.525 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.525 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.797, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgJUWUQFoFAT for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC2321F874F for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7599DE4CA; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:20:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B18AE4C6; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:20:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2012042023201795-22152 ; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:20:17 +0800 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:20:05 +0800 From: zhangyunfei To: "arno@cs.vu.nl" , "Martin Stiemerling" References: <2012041809482198565512@chinamobile.com>, <4F8E5B8A.1040202@cs.vu.nl> <2012041815225300068577@chinamobile.com>, <4F8E6EEC.4020908@cs.vu.nl> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.85[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2012042023200503896542@chinamobile.com> X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-20 23:20:18, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2012-04-20 23:20:20, Serialize complete at 2012-04-20 23:20:20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart543560866726_=----" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18850.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--22.211-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--22.211-7.0-31-10;No--22.211-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No;No Cc: ppsp Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?u9i4tDogUmU6ICBQUFNQIG5vdGVzIGZvciBJRVRGIDgz?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: zhangyunfei List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:20:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart543560866726_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgTWFydGluLA0KICAgIFdvdWxkIHlvdSBwbGVhc2UgY29uZmlybSB0aGUgbm90ZXMgaW4gdGhl IGZvbGxvd2luZyBwYXJ0PyBUaGFua3MuDQoNCkJSDQp5dW5mZWkNCg0KDQoNCg0Kemhhbmd5dW5m ZWkNCg0Kt6K8/sjLo7ogQXJubyBCYWtrZXINCreiy83Ksbzko7ogMjAxMi0wNC0xOCAxNTozNg0K ytW8/sjLo7ogemhhbmd5dW5mZWkNCrOty82juiBwcHNwDQrW98zio7ogUmU6IFtwcHNwXSBQUFNQ IG5vdGVzIGZvciBJRVRGIDgzDQpPbiAxOC8wNC8yMDEyIDA5OjIyLCB6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaSB3cm90 ZToNCj4gSGkgQXJubywNCj4gSSByZWFkIHRoZSBub3RlcyBhZ2FpbiBhbmQgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJl ICI/Im1pc3NpbmcgaW4gdGhlIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUgDQo+IHNlbnRlbmNlLCBpLmUuLCBJcyBpdCBy ZWFsbHkgZ29vZCB0byB3YWl0IDIwMG1zIGZvciB0aGUgZGF0YT8gVGhhbmtzLg0KPiANCg0KSGkN Cg0KdGhlbiBJIGRvbid0IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIHJlbWFyayA6LSggSSByZWNhbGwgd2Ugd2Vy ZSB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0DQphZGRpbmcgYW4gZXh0cmEgcm91bmR0cmlwIHRvIHRoZSBoYW5kc2hh a2UgcHJvY2VkdXJlIGJldHdlZW4gcGVlciBBIGFuZA0KQiB0byBhdm9pZCByZW1lbWJlcmluZyBz dGF0ZSBhdCBCIGluaXRpYWxseS4gSSBkb24ndCBsaWtlIHRoYXQgYmVjYXVzZQ0KaXQgYWRkcyB0 byB0aGUgdGltZS10aWxsLXBsYXliYWNrIGFuZCBkb24ndCB0aGluayBpdCBpcyBuZWNlc3Nhcnku DQpBRkFJSywgTWFydGluIGFza2VkIHdoZXRoZXIgdGhlIGV4dHJhIHJvdW5kdHJpcCB3YXMgYWN0 dWFsbHkgdGhhdCBiYWQuDQoNCk1pbm9yIHBvaW50IHRob3VnaC4NCg0KQ1UsDQogICAgQXJubw== ------=_001_NextPart543560866726_=---- Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi Martin,
    Would you please confirm the notes in the followin= g=20 part? Thanks.
 
BR
yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
 
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2012-04-18 15:36
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp<= /A>
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] PPSP notes for IETF 83
On 18/04/2012 09:22, zhangyunfei wrote:
> Hi Arno,
> I read the notes again and it=  should be "?"missing in the end of&nbs= p;the 
> sentence, i.e., Is it really good&= nbsp;to wait 200ms for the data? Thanks.
> 
 
Hi
 
then I don't understand the remark :-(&= nbsp;I recall we were talking about
adding an extra roundtrip to the handsh= ake procedure between peer A and
B to avoid remembering state at B = initially. I don't like that because
it adds to the time-till-playback and d= on't think it is necessary.
AFAIK, Martin asked whether the extra r= oundtrip was actually that bad.
 
Minor point though.
 
CU,
    Arno
 
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