From nobody Sun Mar 2 03:39:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218201A0D47 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 03:39:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.647 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fwhElENuR4sw for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 03:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2EF11A0D5F for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 03:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:39:12 +0100 Received: from [10.0.0.104] (130.37.253.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:39:08 +0100 Message-ID: <53131862.7000508@cs.vu.nl> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:39:14 +0100 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <007801cf293a$009090f0$01b1b2d0$@com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.253.20] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/3Wm3oAz8nZ7Oh-wz_GfwODwb8V8 Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-deng-ppsp-bfbitmap-05.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 11:39:16 -0000 On 14/02/2014 05:07, lingli deng wrote: > Hi all, > > We posted a new version of the BF scheme draft just now. > Your review and comments are highly apreciated. > Hi this updated version still does not address the issue I raised about the lossy nature of bloomfilters. Regards, Arno From nobody Sun Mar 2 13:32:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5CE1A0B20 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 13:32:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.151 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.151 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tz-NxaYERmLM for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 13:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x22f.google.com (mail-ve0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B181A0B1E for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 13:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f175.google.com with SMTP id oz11so1955835veb.20 for ; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 13:31:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Vi959Q1Riqk0QE7BJoyEklv8T5K7l+Saoy3tIdchxwY=; b=yHqap/VHFdlnBctmMZ2/l8+4N2pgo+2FYp7PppU+XcVsZQiHKfz4GkGXIuFnfxpY6F /3XDaE83q5UQ1Nu0wP5630oMElYNUDMc+Un5GmcvCsFQAuItYvOJ+4/GAGSxEU29GLs+ BXeQuSFCltRIjfJ+kn8abM/Ui86yiyuSvF2gJtIAraICuzByZsVP+TQG0em2ErRqlE5l T4dkvbD/3e+OU1P0HKP5M/u6KVHqu0Ta7mHI1lMXdbvb0L5yTblX5ZkI8cHtohbyyXei zf6fCHQ8wUADSHieE3SzzZ7+cV1mD4fQ6ydbMVnqLRbbIT0eCETjVsKulMDNO1s7Vmu1 0v1w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.132.203 with SMTP id ow11mr14128005veb.1.1393795914824; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 13:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.100.212 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 13:31:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53131862.7000508@cs.vu.nl> References: <007801cf293a$009090f0$01b1b2d0$@com> <53131862.7000508@cs.vu.nl> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 05:31:54 +0800 Message-ID: From: lingli deng To: arno@cs.vu.nl Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b66f00f6480ba04f3a6662f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/Q4xY1TFOSzvziJNLhogVu9HWIKU Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-deng-ppsp-bfbitmap-05.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:32:05 -0000 --047d7b66f00f6480ba04f3a6662f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Arno, Would you be more specific about what you mean by the issue about the lossy nature of bloomfilters? BR Lingli 2014-03-02 19:39 GMT+08:00 Arno Bakker : > On 14/02/2014 05:07, lingli deng wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > We posted a new version of the BF scheme draft just now. > > Your review and comments are highly apreciated. > > > > Hi > > this updated version still does not address the issue I raised about the > lossy nature of bloomfilters. > > Regards, > Arno > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --=20 =B5=CB=C1=E9=C0=F2/Lingli Deng =D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/China Mobile Researc= h Institute e-mail: denglingli@chinamobile.com tel: 15801696688-3367 mobile: 13810597148 --047d7b66f00f6480ba04f3a6662f Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Arno,

Would you be more specific about what you mean by the issue about the lossy nature of bloomfilters?

BR

Lingli



2014-03-02 19:39 GMT+08:00 Arno Bakker= <a= rno@cs.vu.nl>:
On 14/02/2014 05:07, lingli = deng wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We posted a new version of the BF scheme draft just now.
> Your review and comments are highly apreciated.
>

Hi

this updated version still does not address the issue I raised about the lossy nature of bloomfilters.

Regards,
      Arno


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp



--
= =B5=CB=C1=E9=C0=F2/Lingli Deng
=D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1= =D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/China Mobile Research Institute
e-mail: denglingli@chinamobile.com
tel: 15801696688-3367
mobile: 13810597148
--047d7b66f00f6480ba04f3a6662f-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 00:06:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EB61A0A0D for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:06:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6s_g0iawr4uj for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B66D1A0987 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:06:35 +0100 Received: from [145.100.100.60] (130.37.253.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:06:31 +0100 Message-ID: <5314380E.7040103@cs.vu.nl> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:06:38 +0100 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ppsp References: <528CAD87.6020004@cs.vu.nl> In-Reply-To: <528CAD87.6020004@cs.vu.nl> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <528CAD87.6020004@cs.vu.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.253.20] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/V6_gKyU4NyMr3wqKAG2_jn5h_VQ Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-deng-ppsp-bfbitmap-05.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 08:06:40 -0000 > Hi Arno, > > Would you be more specific about what you mean by the issue about the lossy > nature of bloomfilters? > > BR > > Lingli Hi please see my original description of the issue below. You stated on 27/11/2013 that "Thank you for pointing out the lossy nature of BF scheme. Yes, this needs to be considered." Have a good meeting in London, Arno -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [ppsp] 转发: New Version Notification for draft-deng-ppsp-bfbitmap-03.txt Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:39:35 +0100 From: Arno Bakker Reply-To: To: On 21/10/2013 04:44, 邓灵莉/Lingli Deng wrote: > Hi all, > > With Rachel's help and input, we have updated the BF draft, with more > specific description about PPSP protocol integration added. After a > preliminary analysis, it seems that both the current extended tracker > protocol and peer protocol can incorporate this new algorithm pretty > easily. > > Your comments are more than welcome. > Hi all after the meeting I kept on thinking about the use of bloom filters to convey chunk availability. One additional problem with their use is that the peer protocol does not tolerate structural omissions ("miss-hits") in the chunk availability. Take the example of a single peer with no content (leecher) talking to a peer with the complete content (seeder). If the bloomfilter that is sent by seeder is lossy, and does not convey that the seeder has all, the leecher will be stuck forever waiting to download the unreported chunks. More general, in scenarios with multiple peers the bloomfilter creation algorithm will have to ensure that for each chunk there is least one peer that reports it as available for download. Regards, Arno _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From nobody Mon Mar 3 02:05:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E8B1A0DDD for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:05:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sox4SUvZJENs for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x233.google.com (mail-oa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884031A0D5B for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id i4so3104126oah.10 for ; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 02:05:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=waAQ5vRitvRWvE6/2JqREl+JxlwnpOdEgWT6Nm/EVDU=; b=IhGayCxjNFihUx2Y4zcBwtIuLj8fHAzkIakB6CWBuIKT2Ove5ENTAGkZp7NJRL7+FZ nm3FjprAkZ2sKOCfIZyzoKvj+1MU3ErwHEZ26dH89prTrhcSn/U6GVcG+rlmSN1m9on9 oCFOxPjn8NdffsW3VwNMs4FneXy5OywY+5KnTReK67VDgxdF4gN1mmTMB4vcyu6+UEv9 Ren3+nFMpBCmYmzKkqSo3VajlBRZ516g6ijNV+Fp8ScoiAhCCpHssrcReo3HUKfzIMCT R3GnUyHU1I7Re9EKNMdPdkBaZRP3DDDOGSI6qqtn6Qf+AVGUxasjE2ItLAmI1uEsDG+t uLqA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.44.167 with SMTP id f7mr26103060obm.3.1393841118669; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 02:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.169.102 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:05:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 18:05:18 +0800 Message-ID: From: yunfei zhang To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1d7e0c0705004f3b0ecc0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/UWXQiscDjmXuFb6MYBZlQt4ufFw Subject: [ppsp] Slides collection due by tonight X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 10:05:27 -0000 --001a11c1d7e0c0705004f3b0ecc0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, For the presenters, please send the slides for this IETF to Ning and me by 20:00 this night. Thanks. BR Yunfei --001a11c1d7e0c0705004f3b0ecc0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
=A0 For the presenters, please send= the slides for this IETF to Ning and me by 20:00 this night. Thanks.
=

BR
Yunfei
--001a11c1d7e0c0705004f3b0ecc0-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 07:38:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABBA1A0154 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 07:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZDiOodfkJHH for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 07:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204451A005E for ; Tue, 4 Mar 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X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.82.90] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B0D29E0424F2DE47A0B36779EC666779660F8979nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/i61-_NW5zxce9DGcvzOoZj_JJ-Y Subject: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?6L2s5Y+ROiBNZWV0aW5nIGludml0YXRpb246IFBQU1A=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 15:38:48 -0000 --_000_B0D29E0424F2DE47A0B36779EC666779660F8979nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RllJDQoNCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogTmF2ZWVuIEtoYW4gW21haWx0bzptZXNzZW5nZXJAd2ViZXguY29t XQ0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE05bm0MuaciDIw5pelIDIzOjMzDQrmlLbku7bkuro6IFpvbmdu 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http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/uqOhgAblUWT_ZL7c0hdfuJcW22A Subject: [ppsp] review of tracker protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 16:21:27 -0000 Hi folks, I spent some time reviewing the TP today; it=E2=80=99s nicer to read here= https://gist.github.com/dch/9344878 but full content follows below. =23 Tracker Review =23=23 Summary - the draft is too long for the 4 requirements from =5Brfc6972=5D - much of the included content is not directly relevant and arguably conf= using - there is not enough separation of concern between TP and PPSP - technically it might be replaced with simpler alternatives (with some =C2=A0 compromises) - I'm not intending to implement this in its current form =23=23 Requirements from =5Brfc6972=5D These are the minimum requirements a tracker implementation would need to= meet, if it were to comply with the original requirements. =5Bsection 6.3=5D(http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6972=23section-6.3) speci= fies the following requirements for the TP: =23=23=23 PPSP.TP.REQ-1 - MUST be able to get a list of peers. The tracker may optionally tailor =C2=A0 that response. =23=23=23 PPSP.TP.REQ-2 - The tracker protocol MUST report the peer's activity in the swarm to th= e =C2=A0 tracker. I'm interested in how much information MUST be reported. We already participate in the swarm, and I'd like to minimise duplication. =23=23=23 PPSP.TP.REQ-3 - the tracker MUST take the frequency of message exchange and bandwidth u= se =C2=A0 into consideration when communicating chunk availability informati= on. Why is this a requirement for the tracker=3F This is a swarm aka peer to communicate chunk information, =23=23=23 PPSP.TP.REQ-4 The tracker protocol MUST have a provision for the tracker to authenticat= e the peer. =23=23 Detailed =46eedback Right now I don't see a need to implement TP at all. i.e. all the information I need to locate a suitable swarm can be provided with far simpler approaches, and the bulk of the information about management of a= swarm can be provided from the controlling / seeding peers I have within = the swarm. =46inally, if my peers are not involved in the swarm at all, I don= 't see a need to provide a tracker service for that swarm at all. The only useful feature is to be able to re-request a list of valid peers from the= tracker if for some reason the current ones were either found to be unreliable or unavailable. The tracker protocol would be *much* simpler if in fact most of it were moved back into the peer protocol. There is significant duplication requi= red of peer state, chunk lists, etc as a result of this. We have transaction ids, which are effectively duplicating channels that already exist in PPS= P. And each of these now requires trackers & peers to duplicate that state a= s well, with more & more almost-duplicated code. Clearly I wasn't involved in the earlier discussions & decisions to split= these in the WG, but as an implementer looking for alternate ways to prov= ide the same functionality. There is clear value for telcos and providers in a lot of this informatio= n, but that doesn't mean we need to specify and mandate it in the R=46C. Wha= t would happen if this functionality was left to providers and implementers= , to include within their products=3F A simple extension field to include arbitrary information or fields could be all that is sufficient. Approx 5= 0% of the draft covers MAY use cases that are only of use if *both* the trac= ker and the peer support these features; there's a strong chance that in wide= r deployment the peers connecting to a swarm will be R=46C compliant but no= t identical providers. Consider bittorrent and http clients/servers as a suitable example. Useful features such as certification and authorisation, *could* add considerable value and justify a separate tracker protocol. So we need to= make our minds up, what is the TP here to do, what is the minimum feature= set to do so, and do we need a separate protocol / transport, along with = all the code & memory to operate this in practice=3F =23=23 Objective - communication between trackers and peers - provide meta info - report streaming status - obtain peer lists from trackers (in addition to PPSP internal swarm =C2=A0 discovery) - used for content registration and location =23=23 Concerns - lack of clarity in some places (2.2, ...) of what is IN the tracker =C2=A0 protocol, or simply a dialogue to support the discussion & underst= anding =C2=A0 of the flow. =C2=A0 This is clear when you understand PPSP in detail, but will not be = so for a =C2=A0 newcomer to the R=46Cs. - too much padding information (... not in the scope of this document...)= . =C2=A0 Leave these out completely. - use of XML to support PPSP, a protocol designed to be efficient & =C2=A0 lightweight, exchanging data that does not need to be self-validat= ing. =C2=A0 It's not that complicated=21 Let's slim this down. - conflation of connecting to a swarm with swarm management (stats etc) - we will need to be very careful about looking =22like=22 HTTP. Most of = the =C2=A0 internet (firewalls, proxies etc) will simply assume we *are* HTTP= . So we =C2=A0 do need to be compliant with that completely. Extensions will be t= ricky. - a number of the proposed parameters are simply impossible for a peer to= =C2=A0 obtain reliably, and arguably of no benefit in its current form. =23=23 Review =23=23=23 2.2 Enrollment and Bootstrap There are 3 phases as I see this: - locate the content you want to receive (outside tracker protocol) - receive enough information to contact the swarm (hash, some peer =C2=A0 addressses) - connect to the swarm (peer protocol, outside tracker again) - send periodic updates to the tracker - possibly leave the swarm & tracker Not clear whether this diagram is a mandatory to implement =23=23=23 2.4 State Machines Would make more sense to call STARTED state as ACTIVE or RUNNING. Do we really need a state machine defined per peer in the tracker protoco= l=3F I'd be happier to leave that out and simply say that the tracker needs to= keep track of the involved peers, and recommend what information a tracke= r might need to observe. It's important to understand that most of this information is not required for inter-operability. =23=23=23 3.1 Request/Response Syntax and Semantics Re format, please pick one, binary *or* text. IMO binary is the way to go= but I'm open to discussion. If binary, drop HTTP compliance. If text, kee= p HTTP. Please split this section into explanatory text & a separate table, with MUST/MAY etc. Personally I find C struct approach hard to follow, considering the number of optional parameters. Are there alternative form= ats used in other R=46Cs that we could use=3F The majority of information requested as MAY should IMO be dropped. It wi= ll likely not be implemented, and is of arguable benefit. E.g. what is the significance of the asn or the connection type, whether = I'm using NAT or not from the tracker's perspective, if I have concurrent act= ive links (host common is that=3F), what my bandwidth level is=3F And how doe= s a client know this information=3F Is it important that I'm connecting over = 3G, when in fact at *my* home, 3G is more reliable and faster than ADSL (outs= ide business hours=21). How would the behaviour of a peer in the PPSP layer change, if this information was known=3F I posit not at all. =23=23=23 4.1 CONNECT Request The connect request with LEECH or SEED suggests a binary mode of operatio= n for peers. this will not be the case, for example a live streaming peer m= ay never get to a full SEED state, having dropped initial packets. This is n= ot Bit Torrent ;-). CONNECT LEAVE seems weird to a native English speaker. It's like clicking= on Start button in Windows to Shut Down the computer. =C2=A0 =C2=A0=22When a peer plans to leave a previously joined swarm, it = should set=22 Please use normative language here; MAY/SHOULD/MUST. IMO this information= is already available in the peers themselves, as a list of active peers. A p= eer may, as a result of loss of connectivity, not be able to send a CONNECT LEAVE message. =23=23=23 4.2 =46IND Request Must be specific about how a well-formed =46IND request can be validated,= and also what happens if it is NOT valid. Do we ignore them=3F =23=23=23 4.3 STAT=5FREPORT Re Keep-alive, duplicates functionality within the peer protocol itself. =23=23=23 4.4 Error and Recovery conditions =22If a peer fails to read=22 does this mean that if the peer receives bu= t cannot parse the response=3F If so, re-sending will not help. The peer sh= ould re-send its tracker request, rather than require the tracker to decide if= the condition is transient or not. Let's push state management out to pee= rs and not try to manage it in the tracker, where possible. =23=23=23 5 Operations and Manageability As section 5 is mainly boiler-plate, I make a few general comments. Why do we =22propose=22 syslog and SNMP=3F These are surely internal mana= gement tools, and of no relevance to an internet-facing tracker protocol. Is thi= s simply an IET=46 expected norm for R=46Cs=3F =23=23=23 6 Security Considerations I'm concerned that the requirements referred to here need to be improved significantly, and in many sections (e.g. 6.3) simply speculate on possib= le options. =23=23=23 6.1 Authentication between Tracker and Peers Please, please, please spare me from the hell that is implementing OAuth 2.0, just to use a simple tracker protocol. Do we have *any* idea what th= e impact of this is on the fast-start ideals put forward in PPSP itself=3F =23=23=23 6.4 Pro-incentive parameter trustfulness This discussion really belongs in the peer protocol. We've IMO made an effort there to avoid specifying incentive schemes and methods; I don't believe this should be included in the tracker protocol. =23=23 Possible Alternatives - using (m)DNS for location NB doesn=E2=80=99t meet all requirements for TP at this point however I b= elieve the information is already available within the peer protocol. - obtaining a list of peers (leecher mode) *could* be supported via simpl= e =C2=A0 DNS or MDNS within a link-local network (e.g. a single site) - proposing a new content streem (seeder mode) can also be supported via =C2=A0 DNS... - in practice I *think* a peer in either mode will not participate in =C2=A0 multiple swarms from a tracker's point of view, i.e. for a given h= ash a =C2=A0 peer (even a high-end datacentre based peer) will likely not parti= cipate =C2=A0 in multiple swarms for the same hash, i.e. the same hash may be pr= ovided =C2=A0 through multiple peers - a short TTL, and the option of providing different DNS responses to =C2=A0 different peers (IP addresses) has worked well in other geo-aware = services =C2=A0 I've worked in. - this could be supported functionally by using a ppsp:// url: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ppsp://peer.id/hash=3Fnumber&key1=3Dvalue1&key2=3Dvalue2&ke= y3=3Dvalue3 where key/value represent the desired swarm parameters such as chunk size= etc. when the peer.id DNS name is looked up, the DNS server will return t= he list of peers in the usual DNS format. TTLs ensure that the operator can trade off stability for accuracy. We could debate using PTR records or ot= her approaches but this is definitely an option. I'd like to see a defined / standard port for the PPSP layer too btw, I'm= not sure if the TP also needs its own one. I'd see this as very similar to a simple web page with a variety of links= with different peer options. In practice I think peer streams will be defined once by an operator, and the user e.g. in a web browser =23=23 Nits - =22Then the leecher starts to initiate=22 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -> =22Then the leecher initiates=22 - =22If the leecher plan to switch to another straw, it will initiate =22= =C2=A0 =C2=A0s/straw/swarm/ - =22How the portal learn the encoding type=22 s/learn/learns/ - =22peer obtain above information=22 s/obtain/obtains/ - =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Content-Lenght: -> Content-Length:= - =22Priority: the preference of IP address on which the requesting peer =C2=A0get the swarm.=22 -> =3F=3F I don't understand this at all sorry. =5Brfc6972=5D: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6972 A+ -- =20 Dave Cottlehuber Sent from my PDP11 From nobody Wed Mar 5 03:31:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2BE1A03EF for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:31:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ipLS9mtnUVzL for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65AC1A03ED for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id x13so1042149wgg.9 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 03:30:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jsonified.com; s=google; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=6ZpRAQkQUv5cnhOj62ewNK7x2vpy5+BgxcMvHQ6+Rh0=; b=F2dytp8pFZo+rC3w9DuFejP28XqePvijmJZIqlM80mA9ZW9J594OYH6+iDV+WH02Gw zvmXwQchLkjzhjZyWL7JeaW3fAIl8JtewJkUYQ6xwjNT4r5ffW7frQPHwjGpwAEdRITK HRmTeAM102dFxYGsByZjanLzz/bvoIOM2G5ZY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:message-id:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=6ZpRAQkQUv5cnhOj62ewNK7x2vpy5+BgxcMvHQ6+Rh0=; b=YZxnQxPU+UchAuE/oeT6H/XeA3Nn3XZC78QlUMr15XrbDZzTh9a7r4Uf1tQiifMcmZ +LRMmq0iaA5oV54StbBaFF4C/JJIWQwrV+UOa4ONS322+cVgJou0ty7eY/4gTjHWkrph uNQTGjnxwGzFNMsb5oN3rTQj6SjKmewpUyxbXQ+cjnNt7y0SdOspeLXy+iTm1RaSblur oHXjAX6dtuirJDezPRXNwP3G30V56504j5FSHpC2kdFnX3hn8Na7JlzaaFl+ondes5Zt ahlzTnehV2AR8jH2F+gkgqqg9Jhuf4wTORJHXPbLTWq3+9U9nU69I4/qcvTOtikgis5m j5RA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkEQF7Qz5GajvFZyseuoyNULG+cezJOPBChrrBqRcUalMCQ9OULb+AmYJhg8Sw4IVIe7biD X-Received: by 10.194.63.145 with SMTP id g17mr13779wjs.72.1394019045612; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 03:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from akai.jsonified.com ([2001:67c:370:160:9cab:5ec5:bb5a:1949]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ci4sm10366886wjc.21.2014.03.05.03.30.44 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 03:30:44 -0800 (PST) Sender: Dave Cottlehuber Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:30:43 +0000 From: Dave Cottlehuber To: "=?utf-8?Q?ppsp=40ietf.org?=" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Airmail (231) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/3ORzHUtpx9aW_791E0jmeAyiZAg Subject: [ppsp] FWI - raw UDP socket access in browsers X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:31:01 -0000 Hey folks, I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a while; firefox:=C2=A0https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show=5Fbug.cgi=3Fid=3D952927 chrome:=C2=A0http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets=5Fudp also,=C2=A0http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-re= placement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/ is intriguing. Ke= ep an eye on it in=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/=23= =21forum/proto-quic A+ -- =20 Dave Cottlehuber Sent from my PDP11 From nobody Fri Mar 7 01:29:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF4571A028B for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:29:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bbG6PNEfumps for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x22c.google.com (mail-lb0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405361A0273 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f172.google.com with SMTP id c11so2594105lbj.17 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 01:29:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jsonified.com; s=google; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=GYrjqGjrBk1l59sXdSq4m9/xzIkpIaAFKAq7mDPd6l4=; b=qfB6OGbVTlYsnwogiU1CIDpM/l8WSIgTWXBrTn4Dnn2WW0JvRbnxo/aiwbnzgBKuGI dpbuW0hNff5kFd4e5WCBdKolQpFFsESloQAwyt+vzKGUgTUwOAhu1qA2jQrSZ6pDNJNu MCQ9+9si1GTgQne6OYfX/1wM1+1B+vufRzB/k= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from :to:content-type; bh=GYrjqGjrBk1l59sXdSq4m9/xzIkpIaAFKAq7mDPd6l4=; b=nN1D/InpIXq5IJvhtRHVLoc8e5S22/6gCFENWApcOvxMVV/35Esx8gUVSnhDfRRKXY gKMJnDWBIMa8y0I5r+33tObPf5NCM+mNHPpoh75BFcxSwH/eAGZrult6gSgJZDvi1moS NkXIJm8qWtszXUX2pdAQ4D5FTBA278J2Qo6FBFdeAH38ypGOOvBHwA2U0CAFEKt5Hiom y4abLCmD3d4UXjUB3yUBYq3vZi4i7o2uSC0bF1wXNOEZjc0+aHccUrSlfUPsSNxI4U3c kUvkQJ6BiE2CO1pN2yuC6vf6G+NRexCnuYD3eXGOypXGM3f152ox9AQ08KRPCVP6XN7B HrKg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmwTVZd0sCBxF/ol+aTya+9xxn84eh/ZFWq2rGiqIxFnHUBmtNsJfC9iguMTH4i3z8M+C2E MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.172.103 with SMTP id bb7mr867185lac.49.1394184568183; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 01:29:28 -0800 (PST) Sender: dch@jsonified.com Received: by 10.112.202.196 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:29:28 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [87.74.72.216] Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 09:29:28 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b1Z0aX2B5Q_THIZrQqBbhpH2_Fc Message-ID: From: Dave Cottlehuber To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113814c4f02d7104f400e3eb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/-zQDVaEjvG8CotOOL9RIU1RIhGY Subject: [ppsp] meet this morning in London X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:29:35 -0000 --001a113814c4f02d7104f400e3eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi folks, I believe some of us were going to meet this morning, but I'm not sure where? I'll be in the hotel at 10am, down near where the pianola is, and will keep an eye out on email for any response private or public to this. Sorry for the noise! A+ Dave --001a113814c4f02d7104f400e3eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,

I believe some of us were goi= ng to meet this morning, but I'm not sure where?

I'll be in the hotel at 10am, down near where the pianola is, and wi= ll keep an eye out on email for any response private or public to this.

Sorry for the noise!

A+
<= div>Dave

--001a113814c4f02d7104f400e3eb-- From nobody Fri Mar 7 06:44:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FE01A0118 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_31FhY-Lzrl for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EEF1A0073 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id m15so2677827wgh.15 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:44:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=iWatgrZokRQaxR/PZ9NT3yttdoQWfbSrOjy3nYlMZkU=; b=TM5XpwDVCgeQFLiwP2MTl1sEZK5rqBXDTznvgRLt40WEhPQ/JlvVRU5Bwa/TIUTOXe iqGhSstkDFzEno+F1lE/cKp1RXL4N/CjUsRr8iTUgjFLVjWBnCN2JjDBuYvifxkDvGy8 nxzir3KSt6A2+FpqdCIoyEcdJJVlOZsKuCpoNVK5g9XKt5NkqYsX13AWdntdrTcinG5W +Y0Ehl5nz5jEfjXxzdojcIjxmdi9hz5vCwH35GHNjj/P6G/C0jd9yNNyRKmM9ahFBbVH ArEIJgRyMO/RPvWoFcqiV1kLd1/V/Ndy30EmNtE7yjTDl0odx4IB7+BLtLiZdy3+XBy7 l/BA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.174.197 with SMTP id bu5mr19255634wjc.71.1394203458586; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.191.14 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:44:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 15:44:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: Johan Pouwelse To: Dave Cottlehuber Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/dVyO31Dokrx3edPcorDHISQGSM4 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] FWI - raw UDP socket access in browsers X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:44:26 -0000 Hi All, A plug-in is required for Chrome. Only "Chrome Apps" have access to the UDP API it seems: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/app_network For Firefox, is this also "plug-in only"? -j On 5 March 2014 12:30, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > Hey folks, > > I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a while; > > firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=952927 > chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets_udp > > also, http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-replacement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/ is intriguing. Keep an eye on it in https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!forum/proto-quic > > A+ > -- > Dave Cottlehuber > Sent from my PDP11 > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From nobody Fri Mar 7 06:55:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86DED1A0256 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:55:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1xURKLMuPcnO for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x229.google.com (mail-wg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A94E1A0118 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id n12so5167387wgh.24 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:55:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Qmxa7dvH+0/krgO7AVNJncYSZ2fkq9UgFI5h7i83/IU=; b=S7pjG6gXJp5kdUquQKkMV/dBiqINFk/QEWffffHvYyn6BUZ3RMBmcu53ZHuo9Z8iG8 9sRkgjiq9llXioa1YBQIm/NUs1UXp64ZtzLC5Gw6XeWZVs50Krsp+rNGurXNkCf5ny8w AW3l2gawFk1hY4kznb/la004SBCPTrH7mcUyi1OGvIa8nzJSUiWcKh5VednOaRaEuIha lkUZCr0YDH9UP5OMarDJq4Pu1y5tiFUypObglR9qNSIY2cCMP1eBpUfy8aLahEdVXyP3 wQPKK/FsUtVfxBvoMvNWb0nwkdKCjdSMMf79AGr0H7UXn/hs2ju9Hkin7lKod/veo4zD gCFA== X-Received: by 10.194.6.106 with SMTP id z10mr19640454wjz.1.1394204118659; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:55:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.152.74 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:54:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Victor Grishchenko Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 18:54:38 +0400 Message-ID: To: Johan Pouwelse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/2g7-g31K27hZV7Bc4zyLCrkZKVM Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] FWI - raw UDP socket access in browsers X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:55:25 -0000 Actually, given WebRTC in the browser, UDP is not needed that much. PPSP can be run over WebRTC, just use larger bins (64KB or so). Except for LEDBAT, maybe. But you'll have to keep the tab open to seed, that's uncool. On 7 March 2014 18:44, Johan Pouwelse wrote: > Hi All, > A plug-in is required for Chrome. > > Only "Chrome Apps" have access to the UDP API it seems: > http://developer.chrome.com/apps/app_network > For Firefox, is this also "plug-in only"? > -j > > On 5 March 2014 12:30, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: >> Hey folks, >> >> I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a while; >> >> firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=952927 >> chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets_udp >> >> also, http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-replacement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/ is intriguing. Keep an eye on it in https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!forum/proto-quic >> >> A+ >> -- >> Dave Cottlehuber >> Sent from my PDP11 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp -- Victor From nobody Fri Mar 7 08:39:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836FD1A01E7 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:39:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 496x2yAjngWg for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34D31A02B4 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:39:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id oy12so4341725veb.4 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=UHbQEjwpSG6SQTX7hfxPpjep01+GxdZt4Tlgpea66H0=; b=XI81sIoCuzn/Jory6bIAD1bjtPG0/YrUL8O2lP2UBgGcVg5vbzEsWIJccqjvwi/Sde vBk/XyBq0anMpY6paQjp33G5CxhZKl7Xg44A9uoEenWSObeqREH4uKEEoMufhllwQUmi FBa/1fYj3P9trL8BBUnnDRGct3nyoToQILQb6Iz64s91hqpNawf0vgkIZbR1Qn/PTGrE YQcCuEz92kc324YAsNw9K3ptlkkvHq205+TrNgHywQIjfmwc4WxGUzMlM0rqhn/cpVzL 92PeHJa4Y0ZVkfKc0W8wxHZZgNhPKY0xQ6iPn7i2pAxX4XdfEutMl78aiBTRUKAlGrmu 7mEg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.250.236 with SMTP id zf12mr12696538vdc.9.1394210344783; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.154.75 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.154.75 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 17:39:04 +0100 Message-ID: From: David Jonsson To: Victor Grishchenko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135f1745803a704f406e4dd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/iDidEuT3QMNguMopuRVVwat7bhs Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] FWI - raw UDP socket access in browsers X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 16:39:12 -0000 --001a1135f1745803a704f406e4dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Is there any such WebRTC-implementation to try? Seems like the most convenient choice. David On Mar 7, 2014 3:55 PM, "Victor Grishchenko" wrote: > Actually, given WebRTC in the browser, UDP is not needed that much. > PPSP can be run over WebRTC, just use larger bins (64KB or so). Except > for LEDBAT, maybe. > But you'll have to keep the tab open to seed, that's uncool. > > On 7 March 2014 18:44, Johan Pouwelse wrote: > > Hi All, > > A plug-in is required for Chrome. > > > > Only "Chrome Apps" have access to the UDP API it seems: > > http://developer.chrome.com/apps/app_network > > For Firefox, is this also "plug-in only"? > > -j > > > > On 5 March 2014 12:30, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > >> Hey folks, > >> > >> I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a while; > >> > >> firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=952927 > >> chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets_udp > >> > >> also, > http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-replacement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/is intriguing. Keep an eye on it in > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!forum/proto-quic > >> > >> A+ > >> -- > >> Dave Cottlehuber > >> Sent from my PDP11 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ppsp mailing list > >> ppsp@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > -- > Victor > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --001a1135f1745803a704f406e4dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is there any such WebRTC-implementation to try? Seems like t= he most convenient choice.

David

On Mar 7, 2014 3:55 PM, "Victor Grishchenko= " <victor.grishchen= ko@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually, given WebRTC in the browser, UDP is not needed that much.
PPSP can be run over WebRTC, just use larger bins (64KB or so). Except
for LEDBAT, maybe.
But you'll have to keep the tab open to seed, that's uncool.

On 7 March 2014 18:44, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> A plug-in is required for Chrome.
>
> Only "Chrome Apps" have access to the UDP API it seems:
> http://developer.chrome.com/apps/app_network
> For Firefox, is this also "plug-in only"?
> =C2=A0 -j
>
> On 5 March 2014 12:30, Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a w= hile;
>>
>> firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id= =3D952927
>> chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets_udp
>>
>> also, http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-re= placement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/ is intriguing. = Keep an eye on it in https://groups.google.com/a/chrom= ium.org/forum/#!forum/proto-quic
>>
>> A+
>> --
>> Dave Cottlehuber
>> Sent from my PDP11
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ppsp mailing list
>> ppsp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp mailing list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp



--
Victor

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
--001a1135f1745803a704f406e4dd-- From nobody Sat Mar 8 01:15:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22B21A015A for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 01:15:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oN1Foidl6V8R for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 01:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x233.google.com (mail-lb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F48F1A002B for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 01:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id p9so3490581lbv.10 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 01:15:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jsonified.com; s=google; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=FFi86ny2w+oWhZcOPTXCP7iYfqvQjzNrYmhXEAe3YLs=; b=tBqr8py3NzudP7qk8S1hf8lGZln1A84F00jyE9OZhruYx5nwdCw4jgMfjlNXe5YGUl QBCURx8Tvf1+nnDBvkKSRydXrLuHXtB8wCjjhW1EhPmuQ52l0rwLmbNBqKtPmtTqnaTC ndnh3SkAcDgSerU3m7RfDbFP3jB1Z6fZatzNY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=FFi86ny2w+oWhZcOPTXCP7iYfqvQjzNrYmhXEAe3YLs=; b=BZWPuPsJCwcJgSE9cqPpGE/NMhquqah+33KDSk1fdAgkA+uzMUtBZNeJIhRU+UoL+Y Sn7iT9UHg8clBYcsl9fl6dPn/AWA9m05u3gnrYD4tpV0ZFvwOtkMNELe83VsGGhfl11+ sPhXZEexiiaZxYqBShpDjh/7KpwUpnzyB3tAwy24otRvOmIvWPemEhVH665cmEDVubi4 DTvUwdl6T2xGg/+tSrsCezSU52yFI1PAPxW04o4iSMvz9vLWHcRxchRnmRmPAsKc/g7j 2l/Ep9BAnDGFkchegMJewRPfr+bNPbOXgQOlqs0ySorlbirbyl8vzYwxxn3/o5UxceL3 fhww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm2YTuC+V2tnEUADQ2SGCH1BbI3otSWmY0CAwiOPTIuHtx2e15x2oBpSDRPkse7OnSVxNix MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.172.103 with SMTP id bb7mr662313lac.49.1394270140990; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 01:15:40 -0800 (PST) Sender: dch@jsonified.com Received: by 10.112.202.196 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 01:15:40 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [87.74.72.216] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 09:15:40 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vTyoPWPH0Vem1W0DRBpHXG09wCM Message-ID: From: Dave Cottlehuber To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113814c479994204f414d0b9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/ICVD_jBptZy5IQW4nivsI6TQavg Subject: Re: [ppsp] FWI - raw UDP socket access in browsers X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 09:15:50 -0000 --001a113814c479994204f414d0b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 For firefox it won't be a plugin, it will be native code + exposed js api; there's no guarantee that this will be merged into the official ff release though yet. I hope to have a crack at building it form source next week. WRT webrtc, you'll also have a full encrypted stack open between every peer, similar to tcp, including sctp, dtls, udp underneath. I don't think SCTP is going to be exposed directly in the browsers (i.e. in JS) but I'd not expect a lot of additional code to do that. A+ Dave On 7 March 2014 14:44, Johan Pouwelse wrote: > Hi All, > A plug-in is required for Chrome. > > Only "Chrome Apps" have access to the UDP API it seems: > http://developer.chrome.com/apps/app_network > For Firefox, is this also "plug-in only"? > -j > > On 5 March 2014 12:30, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > > Hey folks, > > > > I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a while; > > > > firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=952927 > > chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets_udp > > > > also, > http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-replacement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/is intriguing. Keep an eye on it in > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!forum/proto-quic > > > > A+ > > -- > > Dave Cottlehuber > > Sent from my PDP11 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --001a113814c479994204f414d0b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For firefox it won't be a plugin, it will be native co= de + exposed js api; there's no guarantee that this will be merged into= the official ff release though yet.

I hope to have a cr= ack at building it form source next week.=C2=A0

WRT webrtc, you'll also have a full encrypted stack= open between every peer, similar to tcp, including sctp, dtls, udp underne= ath. I don't think SCTP is going to be exposed directly in the browsers= (i.e. in JS) but I'd not expect a lot of additional code to do that.

A+
Dave

=


On 7 March 20= 14 14:44, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,
A plug-in is required for Chrome.

Only "Chrome Apps" have access to the UDP API it seems:
= http://developer.chrome.com/apps/app_network
For Firefox, is this also "plug-in only"?
=C2=A0 -j

On 5 March 2014 12:30, Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> I have been following these tickets/features with interest for a while= ;
>
> firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D95292= 7
> chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/sockets_udp
>
> also, http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-adds-its-udp-replac= ement-quic-network-protocol-to-latest-chrome-build/ is intriguing. Keep= an eye on it in https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.= org/forum/#!forum/proto-quic
>
> A+
> --
> Dave Cottlehuber
> Sent from my PDP11
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp mailing list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--001a113814c479994204f414d0b9-- From nobody Sat Mar 8 08:38:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109021A02C7 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 08:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sN2KfmThc8pJ for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 08:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3E01A02B8 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 08:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id rd3so5478023pab.39 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 08:38:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NPjtM9MUPvopKJ2TDxLC0M0GOUF46qN/MUqcWpMMt0s=; b=ISFOfRYlE6jPuDFQzQikw4xsFqMZcOOebvIRo/y1T/rcKKKHvHPj9pHTSJ6eymDm7h Rus/oQ81jCjI6/vCnjH+hFg8R9VrczPflbKBC/cSvt5/+N89hj5IPEBt1NpyopqX27Ww ZAkc3p+4RVjayKpkWxxu7V2nvQc534YW8Bsb2JMLPw62XX2RIIikXXgy1h+VjbbHu3er X2ezvkEuUNLUwYtxPAuAeXZCyH2l9LKwAlieDwpZVpQpd1ytLLRsN3epsXkHWLr0PdGp vG40bwfpZgolvgYL7230g5RSIUIyR+hCJKTvAIyt4J5LDHc7dfPm51elRmpnKwh9kqvw THyw== X-Received: by 10.68.202.230 with SMTP id kl6mr29699761pbc.55.1394296725532; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 08:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.8.2] (cpe-23-241-245-244.socal.res.rr.com. [23.241.245.244]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c7sm47933420pbt.0.2014.03.08.08.38.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Mar 2014 08:38:44 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jeff Thompson Message-ID: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 08:38:33 -0800 From: Jeff Thompson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Cottlehuber , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/_GnF9vo10qcQMmCk1OhBU6Ygnd8 Subject: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:38:51 -0000 On 2014-03-08 1:15, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > For firefox it won't be a plugin, it will be native code + exposed js > api; there's no guarantee that this will be merged into the official > ff release though yet. Hello Dave, A related question. What are the plans for Firefox to support ppsp URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example and Firefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and display an image (or other content type)? Thank you, - Jeff Thompson From nobody Mon Mar 10 14:07:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA33B1A063C for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MEMjP_IxZT8J for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ea0-x229.google.com (mail-ea0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c01::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4E61A04C5 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f169.google.com with SMTP id h14so4006188eaj.28 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jsonified.com; s=google; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=Vt2BoUeNwnKiVHrk9Kp0w6JKeGozs2jifiqCXo79M3M=; b=JjzC4jSo+e4nUB4RH5x9yrhljQCI/xoVaY0wA+X6Hon8D5h15Kw9Um3CXf3xQuTLj0 qi7hj0p+359HINCYIlSSBuO6dYiP41YDvELPybvuF9RMhNGdre0tOh3U2dg9PvD8UU1o blhbjaAwsbivLzQFDhvHT7r5Ii+fjFAUtLDS8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=Vt2BoUeNwnKiVHrk9Kp0w6JKeGozs2jifiqCXo79M3M=; b=HbJUCm5mHauuJ1zD9Lq/EnHrgM6T2vVlvb/mwP9ePYWouQAx8YpwN0aOV0aBVrX2+G 5uRhbjYEP2mljXEUlVkHXpom4hYcKAVzTTK8Dh695EIRAfDn5cd2Y3zWvMwX2xaunzVs veF4c6qN5ZYi70EHRsIElytBkjuqx/Bc2zK3WeDZibZJNvR6GqXrgDDOErz0y5sMAAMm 5TFiTbY93qMU1FPHAecpvZrsT41q3Ls5xaRWvDHYgePuNytiP093PxhLrHUvz2cauidW go86SLilMqjE081m1vyeVVttM0QiVmoXDyklaar8DpI3xHDfsTeSnJOCVPkIDu2nnN+v 8W0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkzrk3p9J/1pgsX6AeP/ritkX/RO+71rQz8LlQ0ETKtB+dgPP33KpTQKYLPpKnysYJu0L4j X-Received: by 10.14.102.71 with SMTP id c47mr37477461eeg.19.1394485642626; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from akai.jsonified.com (chello084112019176.2.11.vie.surfer.at. [84.112.19.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id w6sm49318745eex.9.2014.03.10.14.07.21 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Dave Cottlehuber Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:07:20 +0100 From: Dave Cottlehuber To: "=?utf-8?Q?ppsp=40ietf.org?=" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> X-Mailer: Airmail Beta (232) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/u3REeNfTQi1y1vQyt4XQA2Dfj1c Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 21:07:33 -0000 On 08. M=C3=A4rz 2014 at 17:38:46, Jeff Thompson (jeff=40thefirst.org) wr= ote: > On 2014-03-08 1:15, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > > =46or firefox it won't be a plugin, it will be native code + exposed = js > > api; there's no guarantee that this will be merged into the official > > ff release though yet. > =20 > Hello Dave, > =20 > A related question. What are the plans for =46irefox to support ppsp > URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example > =20 > and =46irefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and display an > image (or other content type)=3F > =20 > Thank you, > - Jeff Thompson Hey Jeff, I would love to see this too. I had a brief chat with some IET=46 folk ab= out the right way to organise this; it requires a bit of coordination acr= oss Mozilla, IANA, and a few other places. I=E2=80=99d love to have some = help on this, atm I am still working on the Erlang peer before I get stuc= k into the javascript one. If there=E2=80=99s interest in doing this I am= happy to give input based on what I=E2=80=99ve learned so far. One of the other crazy ideas I had was that, as the leaf nodes don=E2=80=99= t have to be identical chunk size, one could in theory cram an entire web= site into a hash tree simply by putting the files into the appropriate l= ower level chunks with some structuring info, for example, I=E2=80=99m no= t sure how mime types etc would be transported, and there are a few other= hitches, but in *theory* it=E2=80=99s all achievable :). I would imagine it will need something like=C2=A0http://www.w3.org/TR/app= -uri/ and these are defined by=C2=A0http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarificatio= n/ which refers to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2717 and=C2=A0http://too= ls.ietf.org/html/rfc2718 ; I have had some offers of assistance in workin= g through all this, with a recommendation that getting a few of the core = browser developers onside with the proposal before doing all the paperwor= k. Currently my priority is to finish the Erlang PPSP code first :-). A+ -- =20 Dave Cottlehuber Sent from my PDP11 From nobody Mon Mar 10 14:10:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23481A0666 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ED27vieYBr5U for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ea0-x22a.google.com (mail-ea0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED031A065B for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f170.google.com with SMTP id g15so3970442eak.29 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:10:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jsonified.com; s=google; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=751TsSqnB7VIDyhbkD0J7WFeN5YjwZEl1El3fl+XqnI=; b=GafK5RwiTDMarb1A1eTs3tVnPfJaa886Hq4cDqz2EgQVK47a3XHCMDNHkRkETkWlmZ GtGJpdaM4vLY9sBsHo5KCs1PwoeDIYhMuHGKd8/25Y8UhNKQrCeMxtW2OMqosbWdnoru 6Xfuiqm9gMZPyda0K8KTWw5yaLUw3poI+pjHU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:message-id:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=751TsSqnB7VIDyhbkD0J7WFeN5YjwZEl1El3fl+XqnI=; b=TzvZF0zp/XHqvhcBXF8aXWa6Tq6rzcGEI3uz/ryoslC+qBC1qPWlBcCPoSULLM/BOD qpaMYfhzUwLnVe2N5hJSJsQ6QKI4wlAmsJE3ObgqmB9Q0LrQ1wkjjpzCnkgIvoVWHsEj DlXEqBz6AZgeS6jCeTbsgeRvH1MoANVFxTwvtEHuxGuYxYoagtMR2DiOJV04hQw9vNnS QNimADFlyM1PJUas/GkD6hg0EcTqi76yRjDYkGsnqb6QZXuscQOshzvM1E6r7wScmrlq njtGpavDKDJ9R1nS/SR6KZEDcZbZEx+JnuWsCaejuGHDWCSDODmtdERaFeUHKNIBEnr9 ibtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlL85eX3Yu9zcNvovk/5R8ApZed3FznY7JOIAcwmbt54uBrO/8dSPNcuGufGEWk+45Gyl3e X-Received: by 10.15.35.66 with SMTP id f42mr5310669eev.93.1394485837077; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from akai.jsonified.com (chello084112019176.2.11.vie.surfer.at. [84.112.19.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id x3sm49338536eep.17.2014.03.10.14.10.35 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Dave Cottlehuber Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:10:34 +0100 From: Dave Cottlehuber To: "=?utf-8?Q?ppsp=40ietf.org?=" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Airmail Beta (232) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/oLO5bE3ue3KbeqA_lHT5O3bMHtE Subject: [ppsp] Call to action -- status of PPSP draft X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 21:10:45 -0000 Hi folks, esteemed chairs, As evident from our short meeting last week, there appear to be no object= ions to pushing the core protocol form draft to recommended status, or wh= atever the appropriate IET=46 stage should be. Yunfei =E2=80=94 my understanding is that this requires the chairs to re-= submit in some form. When might this happen by, and is there anything I/w= e can do to assist=3F A+ -- =20 Dave Cottlehuber Sent from my PDP11 From nobody Mon Mar 10 17:42:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0931A0675 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:42:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6_VAMzAf9Vpg for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BF71A0672 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BEK92765; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:41:14 +0000 Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:42:01 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.85]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:41:55 +0800 From: Zongning To: Dave Cottlehuber , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Call to action -- status of PPSP draft Thread-Index: AQHPPKU1B9E1SQxfbk+x8WgnSqItNJrbCk6Q Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:41:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.108] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/DxzPMVB1_vjH26G27ZdhWQ3HxXk Subject: Re: [ppsp] Call to action -- status of PPSP draft X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:42:10 -0000 SGksIERhdmUsDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgYXNraW5nLiBUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgc2hlcGhlcmQg aXMgbG9va2luZyBhZnRlciB0aGUgZHJhZnQgbm93LiBPbmNlIHRoZSBJLUQgd3JpdGUtdXAgaXMg ZG9uZSAoaG9wZWZ1bGx5IHdpdGhpbiAxLTIgd2Vla3MpLCB0aGUgZHJhZnQgd2lsbCBnbyB0byB0 aGUgbmV4dCBzdGFnZS4NCg0KLU5pbmcNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0K 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c3BAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9wcHNw DQo= From nobody Mon Mar 10 18:15:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15BC1A0696 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:15:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCcZb1jUHwke for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966771A0691 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BEK94335; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:15:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:47 +0000 Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:13:35 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.85]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:13:31 +0800 From: "Huangyihong (Rachel)" To: Dave Cottlehuber , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] meet this morning in London Thread-Index: AQHPOefFLOSXKWWYG02HgBoc5K12aZrbFfoQ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:13:31 +0000 Message-ID: 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[23.241.245.244]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c7sm74953034pbt.0.2014.03.11.08.27.40 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jeff Thompson Message-ID: <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:27:27 -0700 From: Jeff Thompson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/593ntyJ9kp08YiS0EJjRkOdAnYU Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:27:52 -0000 Hi Dave, Good news that there is some motion on this. I think I can contribute. I've had some experience implementing protocol handlers as a Firefox extension. I wrote one to handle the NetInf ni protocol which has a hash-based URI similar to ppsp, and helped write one for the ndn protocol which has some more complex TCP communication behind the scenes. These are able to render an entire web site in the space of documents referred to by URIs with the special protocol. > I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/ This uses a universal app: URI with an application-specific UUID which has to be in every URI, for example app:/. You prefer this to using the ppsp: protocol directly, for example ppsp: ? This is how the examples look on ppsp.me: http://www.ppsp.me/start.html > I’m not sure how mime types etc would be transported The NetInf people have thought about this when they wrote the "Naming Things with Hashes" RFC: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920 . They propose putting the content type in the URI, for example ppsp://2b2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3a6?ct=video/mpeg Thanks, - Jeff On 2014-03-10 14:07, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > On 08. März 2014 at 17:38:46, Jeff Thompson (jeff@thefirst.org) wrote: >> >> Hello Dave, >> >> A related question. What are the plans for Firefox to support ppsp >> URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example >> >> and Firefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and display an >> image (or other content type)? >> >> Thank you, >> - Jeff Thompson > Hey Jeff, > > I would love to see this too. I had a brief chat with some IETF folk about the right way to organise this; it requires a bit of coordination across Mozilla, IANA, and a few other places. I’d love to have some help on this, atm I am still working on the Erlang peer before I get stuck into the javascript one. If there’s interest in doing this I am happy to give input based on what I’ve learned so far. > > One of the other crazy ideas I had was that, as the leaf nodes don’t have to be identical chunk size, one could in theory cram an entire web site into a hash tree simply by putting the files into the appropriate lower level chunks with some structuring info, for example, I’m not sure how mime types etc would be transported, and there are a few other hitches, but in *theory* it’s all achievable :). > > I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/ and these are defined by http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ which refers to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2717 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2718 ; I have had some offers of assistance in working through all this, with a recommendation that getting a few of the core browser developers onside with the proposal before doing all the paperwork. > > Currently my priority is to finish the Erlang PPSP code first :-). > > A+ > -- > Dave Cottlehuber > Sent from my PDP11 > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From nobody Sun Mar 23 00:21:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FB31A0076 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.301 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_INCLDN=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Doml3uQlpw_0 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f176.google.com (mail-ob0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11EA1A087F for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f176.google.com with SMTP id wp18so4393045obc.35 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:20:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=t18g77+IusM67d+xYXcT3cIUtRIF9upW8HBEqzkK8pk=; b=RuaFOP8EXjgovd+R6cQtySZYJbGvnaSRiFyR3WtMjNF33Bx0n6oaFSmp1K9UKgKWZF PUaOY2kfKxizT4w6IqfQEnA1Pkn2ZCU+guQaePf6N5qzjnII7yqawWSyHhxw2FJaVKdA OvkRCF15BdTukknPb1ekeBSx9GCAq9QL6yJa8iWy5dHhPoOAZfnkvLHhivavclau3gCJ WEYVUmkNBo0YQHdoocfmNTjeqMAWKK+uShRo+UDM1nBCBODG1yBA3g+QPXu88m3Hxa/q llMOpeBsuT/qLg51sQ3qA7YziemhP6zZLmEkgIuL7kOR9O4TO5sgFy2CDb7X7L5oOCW4 S9Rg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.128.138 with SMTP id no10mr20858086obb.32.1395559228306; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.169.102 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:20:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 15:20:28 +0800 Message-ID: From: yunfei zhang To: Jeff Thompson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0153852e10f93404f540f42f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/UAf9bnaWx1HZjgE3VRtcJ0DGdlU Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , Michael Tuexen , Dave Cottlehuber Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 07:21:07 -0000 --089e0153852e10f93404f540f42f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeff, Dave and all, This is a good topic for the WG and after talking with Randell and Michael, the authors of RTCWEB data channel protocol, we conclude that it would be great if the WG, and of course the interested folks i ncluding you, can have some preliminary implementations/analysis on the (maybe) different means of incorporating PPSP into WebRTC before the WG goes further on this topic. BR Yunfei 2014-03-11 23:27 GMT+08:00 Jeff Thompson : > Hi Dave, > > Good news that there is some motion on this. I think I can contribute. > I've had some experience implementing protocol handlers as a Firefox > extension. I wrote one to handle the NetInf ni protocol which has a > hash-based URI similar to ppsp, and helped write one for the ndn protocol > which has some more complex TCP communication behind the scenes. These a= re > able to render an entire web site in the space of documents referred to b= y > URIs with the special protocol. > > > I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri= / >> > > This uses a universal app: URI with an application-specific UUID which ha= s > to be in every URI, for example app:/. You prefer this to usi= ng > the ppsp: protocol directly, for example ppsp: ? This is how the > examples look on ppsp.me: > http://www.ppsp.me/start.html > > > I'm not sure how mime types etc would be transported >> > > The NetInf people have thought about this when they wrote the "Naming > Things with Hashes" RFC: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920 . They > propose putting the content type in the URI, for example ppsp:// > 2b2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3a6?ct=3Dvideo/mpeg > > Thanks, > - Jeff > > > On 2014-03-10 14:07, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > >> On 08. M=E4rz 2014 at 17:38:46, Jeff Thompson (jeff@thefirst.org) wrote: >> >>> >>> Hello Dave, >>> A related question. What are the plans for Firefox to support ppsp >>> URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example >>> and Firefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and display an >>> image (or other content type)? >>> Thank you, >>> - Jeff Thompson >>> >> Hey Jeff, >> >> I would love to see this too. I had a brief chat with some IETF folk >> about the right way to organise this; it requires a bit of coordination >> across Mozilla, IANA, and a few other places. I'd love to have some help= on >> this, atm I am still working on the Erlang peer before I get stuck into = the >> javascript one. If there's interest in doing this I am happy to give inp= ut >> based on what I've learned so far. >> >> One of the other crazy ideas I had was that, as the leaf nodes don't hav= e >> to be identical chunk size, one could in theory cram an entire web site >> into a hash tree simply by putting the files into the appropriate lower >> level chunks with some structuring info, for example, I'm not sure how m= ime >> types etc would be transported, and there are a few other hitches, but i= n >> *theory* it's all achievable :). >> >> I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri= /and these are defined by >> http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ which refers to >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2717 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc271= 8; I have had some offers of assistance in working through all this, with a >> recommendation that getting a few of the core browser developers onside >> with the proposal before doing all the paperwork. >> >> Currently my priority is to finish the Erlang PPSP code first :-). >> >> A+ >> -- >> Dave Cottlehuber >> Sent from my PDP11 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --089e0153852e10f93404f540f42f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeff, Dave and all,
   This is= a good topic for the WG and after talking with Randell and Michael, the au= thors of RTCWEB data channel protocol, we conclude that it would be gr= eat if the WG, and of course the interested folks i ncluding you, can have = some preliminary implementations/analysis on the (maybe) different means of= incorporating PPSP into WebRTC before the WG goes further on this topic.
 
BR
Yunfei
 


2014-03-11 23:27 G= MT+08:00 Jeff Thompson <jeff@thefirst.org>:
Hi Dave,

Good news that there is some motion on this. I think I can contribute. &nbs= p;I've had some experience implementing protocol handlers as a Firefox = extension.  I wrote one to handle the NetInf ni protocol which has a h= ash-based URI similar to ppsp, and helped write one for the ndn protocol wh= ich has some more complex TCP communication behind the scenes.  These = are able to render an entire web site in the space of documents referred to= by URIs with the special protocol.


I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/

This uses a universal app: URI with an application-specific UUID which has = to be in every URI, for example app:<UUID>/<hash>. You prefer t= his to using the ppsp: protocol directly, for example ppsp:<hash> ? &= nbsp;This is how the examples look on ppsp.me:
http://www.ppsp= .me/start.html


I’m not sure how mime types etc would be transported

The NetInf people have thought about this when they wrote the "Naming = Things with Hashes" RFC: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920 . They pr= opose putting the content type in the URI, for example ppsp://2b2fe5= f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3a6?ct=3Dvideo/mpeg

Thanks,
- Jeff


On 2014-03-10 14:07, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
On 08. M=E4rz 2014 at 17:38:46, Jeff Thompson (jeff@thefirst.org) wrote:

Hello Dave,
  A related question. What are the plans for Firefox to support ppsp URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example
  and Firefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and display an<= br> image (or other content type)?
  Thank you,
- Jeff Thompson
Hey Jeff,

I would love to see this too. I had a brief chat with some IETF folk about = the right way to organise this; it requires a bit of coordination across Mo= zilla, IANA, and a few other places. I’d love to have some help on th= is, atm I am still working on the Erlang peer before I get stuck into the j= avascript one. If there’s interest in doing this I am happy to give i= nput based on what I’ve learned so far.

One of the other crazy ideas I had was that, as the leaf nodes don’t = have to be identical chunk size, one could in theory cram an entire web sit= e into a hash tree simply by putting the files into the appropriate lower l= evel chunks with some structuring info, for example, I’m not sure how= mime types etc would be transported, and there are a few other hitches, bu= t in *theory* it’s all achievable :).

I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/ and these ar= e defined by http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ which refers to = http://too= ls.ietf.org/html/rfc2717 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2718= ; I have had some offers of assistance in working through all this, with a= recommendation that getting a few of the core browser developers onside wi= th the proposal before doing all the paperwork.

Currently my priority is to finish the Erlang PPSP code first :-).

A+
--
Dave Cottlehuber
Sent from my PDP11

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--089e0153852e10f93404f540f42f-- From nobody Mon Mar 24 07:26:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137241A01FE for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:26:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.682 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.682 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06S83jQV5Y4G for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x230.google.com (mail-oa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD161A0218 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id m1so5835884oag.21 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:26:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8JqA5cO93Mi6NEgXouMrjqK/HMv9BXafM4ZJAHrKF9c=; b=tkKKnA5qocXp+Xd8xaNJr/sjv43FCuxR9nkH0f1kP2Bv/U3DfXvGn3oMkHK23JF5S3 T3gfJfGRVpUa5xdnwvtsCq2+DkJetTDBW1yn7awl0FIucu9XIc9vTyw/JeGtYElOjajo Z5QamrEeWql1kRSjvcgzsGbZ8oYYnmh73Yt4oCbmULobcbc3hKo/Nw3nsRtLTyAiTZ5y 3657SKHAVEQKHvFCIveGsv9i5MHG+xJPB9VbJoEVintHXUP6qQqpg8S+Q/w7+fOSPY5e TYegXBL86rtWPUdUbD8rhGAZIXlsN41MTS735uDUEukKExYqe8HUdUFDVS/hMMWezNt5 fZ1g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.51.6 with SMTP id g6mr57987323oeo.5.1395671213846; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.169.102 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:26:53 +0800 Message-ID: From: yunfei zhang To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c306f0ecb64c04f55b0608 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/pDLKLw0-G-qYf6UO89glT_K5_oM Subject: [ppsp] IETF 89 meeting notes X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:26:57 -0000 --001a11c306f0ecb64c04f55b0608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The following is the PPSP session notes in IETF 89. Thanks Haibin and Roni for taking the notes. Please let Ning and me know if you have any updates. BR Yunfei and Ning ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------PPSP WG meeting, IETF 89, March 4, Tuesday (16:15 -17:18) Chairs: Yunfei Zhang, Ning Zong Attendees: about 20 people Notes taken by: Haibin Song and Roni Even Agenda bashing (Chairs, 5 minutes) No comments. Yunfei states the status update=A3=BA Almost finish peer protocol, now focu= s on tracker protocol. Show hands: many people read the tracker protocol draft. RTCWeb is an example of new use case for this WG. Survey is going for AD review. Individual documents for next step. Martin(AD): resubmit the peer protocol write-up. Yunfei: yes. Yunfei calls for implementations and usage guidance document. Rui Cruz presents tracker protocol, draft-ietf-ppsp-base-tracker-protocol-03 . Protocol overview: Request Messages, Connect Request Messages, STAT_REPORT, Request Messages, FIND, Changes in -03: Examples Next Steps Yunfei: A separate draft for implementation using XML is a good way. This version separates messages from encodings. Johan: Nice to see this will move forward. Efficient design is needed. Currently the message is larger than the actual data. Dave Cottlehuber: Too much information in the draft.Compare the draft of peer protocol, refine the draft on whether it is context for understanding or needing to implement. As little code as possible for tracker protocol (due to management of a large number of peers), not like peer protocol. Rui(response): optional info (like chunk info) is not in the base protocol, in the appendix. Dave: need only "must to have" in the draft, leave that "may have" items to implementers. Rui(response): The formal description will be simpler. First two bullets in the next step slide. Hope the next version will make it clearer. Rachel Huang presents survey of WebRTC which can potentially use PPSP, draft-huang-ppsp-p2p-webrtc-survey-00. Martin (as individual): You asked the wrong WG. Socialize with WebRTC WG. Rachel: OK. And there is a draft. Johan: An nice example for it is PeerJS. Look at it. Rachel: Will look at it. Dave: Interesting. WEBRTC is mostly peer to peer and not for multiple peers connecting to one peer. Fear from HTTP. Michael: There is no HTTP. It is pretty efficient. Alexander: Multiple SCTP/TCP? connections need congestion control. Michael Tuexen: .... Dave: if I have 100 sessions, do I have to keep 100 connections? Michael: does not have to, only one single when need to talk to you. Johan: Something about "Multiple party support". Alexander: How to implement this device to device talk? API or peer to peer talk? Ning: This is in the initial stage. Martin: WebRTC has many things to do. Roni Even: People use the data channel of WebRTC to do some applications. Just focus on the transport. Other things are not the focus. Dave: Can we get PPSP support in browsers as HTTP? Finished. --001a11c306f0ecb64c04f55b0608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
   The following is the P= PSP session notes in IETF 89. Thanks Haibin and Roni for taking the notes. = Please let Ning and me know if you have any updates.
BR
Yunfei and Ning
----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------= ----------------------PPSP WG meeting, IETF 89, March 4, Tuesday (16:15 -17:18)

Chairs: Yunfei Zhang, Ning Zong

Attendees: about 20 people=

Notes taken by: Haibin Song and Roni Eve= n

 

 Agenda bashing (Chair= s, 5 minutes)

 No comments.

Yunfei states the status update=A3=BA Almost finish peer protocol, now focus on tracker protocol. <= /font>

Show hands: many people read the tracker= protocol draft.

RTCWeb is an example of new use case for= this WG.

Survey is going for AD review.

Individual documents for next step.

Martin(AD): resubmit the peer protocol w= rite-up.

Yunfei: yes.

Yunfei calls for implementations and usa= ge guidance document.

 

Rui Cruz presents tracker protocol, dra= ft-ietf-ppsp-base-tracker-protocol-03.

 

Protocol overview:

Request Messages, Connect<= /p>

Request Messages, STAT_REPORT,

Request Messages, FIND,

Changes in -03:

Examples

Next Steps

Yunfei: A separate draft for implementat= ion using XML is a good way. This version separates messages from encodings.

Johan: Nice to see this will move forwar= d. Efficient design is needed.

Currently the message is larger than the= actual data.

Dave Cottlehuber: Too much information i= n the draft.Compare the draft of peer protocol, refine the draft on whether it is context for understanding = or needing to implement. As little code as possible for tracker protocol (due = to management of a large number of peers), not like peer protocol.

Rui(response): optional info (like chunk= info) is not in the base protocol, in the appendix.

Dave: need only "must to have"= in the draft, leave that "may have" items to implementers.

Rui(response): The formal description wi= ll be simpler. First two bullets in the next step slide. Hope the next version will make it clearer.<= /span>

 

Rachel Huang presents survey of WebRTC w= hich can potentially use PPSP,= draft-huang-ppsp-p2p-webrtc-survey-00.

Martin (as individual): You asked the wr= ong WG. Socialize with WebRTC WG.

Rachel: OK. And there is a draft.=

Johan: An nice example for it is PeerJS.= Look at it.

Rachel: Will look at it.

Dave: Interesting. WEBRTC is mostly peer= to peer and not for multiple peers connecting to one peer. Fear from HTTP.

Michael: There is no HTTP. It is pretty = efficient.

Alexander: Multiple SCTP/TCP? connection= s need congestion control.

Michael Tuexen: ....

Dave: if I have 100 sessions, do I have = to keep 100 connections?

Michael: does not have to, only one sing= le when need to talk to you.

Johan: Something about "Multiple pa= rty support".

Alexander: How to implement this device = to device talk? API or peer to peer talk?

Ning: This is in the initial stage.

Martin: WebRTC has many things to do.

Roni Even: People use the data channel o= f WebRTC to do some applications. Just focus on the transport. Other things are not the focus.<= /p>

Dave: Can we get PPSP support in browser= s as HTTP?

 

Finished.

 

 

 

--001a11c306f0ecb64c04f55b0608-- From nobody Mon Mar 24 07:29:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513D41A0202 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2ejfytRVHL5 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x229.google.com (mail-vc0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC671A01FE for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ik5so6018599vcb.0 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:29:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=xQBPRkXeH1Z1TsNY6g6/tIjZ6B0MmPPmTZApbRjhIEU=; b=m7UGo2zAEKk1MsaSJXppr4uuSYqIvZWLLTzkVl4ieO+b4/fZHioHUkVh6zderqFsav OTfG4zZsNw76Lnb/pNhzu53gO7lJ6jOmCP0nSvdVmc5vBYBr9ezoQlPE3X6rWnysAk2G JPQ1zt9R9Euml97z9HRuJH6DlWGifZOf9t7+dNnmJ55FSVGRBNdksOtR0CPXZ0tIh4er dzUOdSuZ5IKrsfjiHY3xwkPlOIoKQfIAscGpC08N1HgIn4F/BSzU5ka8SQA0tfAW2BEU rEOTBXVNTbZdmTIWfQWaFhqOqdYZcBaZv+NwuPkLgRLPF8+eOwVtWAxDL9hptsJD8YVJ vkbA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.96.36 with SMTP id dp4mr2812985veb.21.1395671363260; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.131.134 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:29:23 +0100 Message-ID: From: David Jonsson To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a26e6d52cbb04f55b0f16 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/NQucY5yy5Vave94gd0FZtiBee0Q Subject: [ppsp] JavaScript version of PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:29:25 -0000 --089e013a26e6d52cbb04f55b0f16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Are there any to try? David --089e013a26e6d52cbb04f55b0f16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Are there any to try?

David
--089e013a26e6d52cbb04f55b0f16-- From nobody Mon Mar 24 14:17:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AACF1A02E7 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:17:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEApnJbcYxi2 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22c.google.com (mail-vc0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCDC1A02E6 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id la4so6517064vcb.31 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Bjwg2eZ00guYxiERI6I3OM+R+jXI6fsWCeDimQ4+W/8=; b=cdHmn0NV4TKU81TIaCKYpfljvI7YX9FQ2vSPuQTJwaXzdOmhbgBvKJQrEX0l2bh60B qjv1mOG37byluojStUXbwaEsA2RXdX4EcKac4KUFbIS4EM8BI+wktMb0lio61X7ZAds1 8In6tozvcmUBcPb7PRvWE9SDpfvYqxqUeDJAQpeJcKQwxHWuEtLPYCtHeky0wkqg/iWQ nfH6OEBz4p0pvePPcCnfssV4pb+m4xUhfNKZwFyzvNZ4K7Wys7428lLp87TgDT7nffNy HKIQN1oWqBWD0GTYZt4L62zKuJEak7A6gP5/g2r0A/NXJa915DKK1YYaRxp4IAEcuHHW rTpw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.165.105 with SMTP id yx9mr44269272vdb.22.1395695863120; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.131.134 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:17:43 +0100 Message-ID: From: David Jonsson To: Dave Cottlehuber Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c210cc22c87904f560c4d0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/tCAXzwmA5KV7sKpmBRWP9oOMOUE Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] JavaScript version of PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 21:17:48 -0000 --001a11c210cc22c87904f560c4d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Dave Cottlehuber wrote= : > On 24. M=C3=A4rz 2014 at 15:29:27, David Jonsson (davidjonssonsweden@gmai= l.com) > wrote: > > Are there any to try? > > > > David > > _______________________________________________ > > Not to my knowledge yet, but it=E2=80=99s on my to-do list. Currently nat= ive udp > support isn=E2=80=99t quite there in browsers, but there=E2=80=99s no rea= son you couldn=E2=80=99t > do this in nodejs for example already. > I was thinking of using it with DataChannel instead of UDP to get it running directly in a browser. How much of work is it to rewrite? Do you think Emscripten can do it automatically? David --001a11c210cc22c87904f560c4d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Dave Cottlehuber <dch@js= onified.com> wrote:
On 24. M=C3=A4rz 2014 at 15:29:27, David J= onsson (davidjonssonsweden@= gmail.com) wrote:
> Are there any to try?
>
> David
> _______________________________________________

Not to my knowledge yet, but it=E2=80=99s on my to-do list. Currently nativ= e udp support isn=E2=80=99t quite there in browsers, but there=E2=80=99s no= reason you couldn=E2=80=99t do this in nodejs for example already.

I was thinking of using it with DataChannel instead of UDP to get it runnin= g directly in a browser. How much of work is it to rewrite? Do you think=C2= =A0Emscripten=C2=A0can do it automatically?

David= =C2=A0


--001a11c210cc22c87904f560c4d0-- From nobody Mon Mar 24 20:38:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5C01A0330 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:38:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.251 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MANGLED_INCLDN=2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5LI1crtPAMg for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x236.google.com (mail-pb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0A61A031A for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ma3so6355526pbc.13 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:37:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=9esN+DMSVI5F7mnTs7QVpuVKYO9oJmSD1TzFaZ+0GfQ=; b=VvALGeMJXYI35tjyrz5iY+hwaNAOg0ME/wckoW8p6kaMeeJ4pZRvDHcfIOnbE1iEwi I8Dn8vBAfQhLiuYJDdwKGZoe/qCIZEoJ3wjETx8hZkSElKszMchyHn8pSUcdcNFXRYO0 QZVb+n9wa+EEQHr9umqbMxjmxgxoYhAcmWeqDDnmROk9pT6xv7IOusbtB6BXfdPYHo+S P78YbpxbLCU8M8JdG4N2ktK2AfVSTbqW0zLd4LeeqLWX7aIc3RKXk9tlx3wXwCOt5VAf rig/iBZpu3yuUIwlcQv3v/cBQguJDA88MN80Q/PDtWDmiOGLQeXt6kCq5f4tRHBIYA9H iKIA== X-Received: by 10.68.189.33 with SMTP id gf1mr75115283pbc.111.1395718677918; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.8.2] (cpe-23-241-245-244.socal.res.rr.com. [23.241.245.244]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id kc9sm38192302pbc.25.2014.03.24.20.37.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jeff Thompson Message-ID: <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:37:52 -0700 From: Jeff Thompson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: yunfei zhang References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080807060508080401090105" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/U6OnALbMIriYehNnxcit6GSB6lk Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , Michael Tuexen , Dave Cottlehuber Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:38:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080807060508080401090105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I assume that a preliminary implementation would be a Firefox extension. If the C++ code is current, it should be easy to compile an extension for a few platforms (Linux/OS X). I see two projects on Github. Are either of these current with the latest PPSP spec? https://github.com/libswift/libswift https://github.com/triblerteam/libswift Thanks, - Jeff T On 2014-03-23 0:20, yunfei zhang wrote: > Hi Jeff, Dave and all, > This is a good topic for the WG and after talking with Randell and > Michael, the authors of RTCWEB data channel protocol, we conclude > that it would be great if the WG, and of course the interested folks i > ncluding you, can have some preliminary implementations/analysis on > the (maybe) different means of incorporating PPSP into WebRTC before > the WG goes further on this topic. > BR > Yunfei > > > 2014-03-11 23:27 GMT+08:00 Jeff Thompson >: > > Hi Dave, > > Good news that there is some motion on this. I think I can > contribute. I've had some experience implementing protocol > handlers as a Firefox extension. I wrote one to handle the NetInf > ni protocol which has a hash-based URI similar to ppsp, and helped > write one for the ndn protocol which has some more complex TCP > communication behind the scenes. These are able to render an > entire web site in the space of documents referred to by URIs with > the special protocol. > > > I would imagine it will need something like > http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/ > > > This uses a universal app: URI with an application-specific UUID > which has to be in every URI, for example app:/. You > prefer this to using the ppsp: protocol directly, for example > ppsp: ? This is how the examples look on ppsp.me > : > http://www.ppsp.me/start.html > > > I'm not sure how mime types etc would be transported > > > The NetInf people have thought about this when they wrote the > "Naming Things with Hashes" RFC: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920 . They propose putting the > content type in the URI, for example > ppsp://2b2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3a6?ct=video/mpeg > > Thanks, > - Jeff > > > On 2014-03-10 14:07, Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > > On 08. Mrz 2014 at 17:38:46, Jeff Thompson (jeff@thefirst.org > ) wrote: > > > Hello Dave, > A related question. What are the plans for Firefox to > support ppsp > URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example > and Firefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and > display an > image (or other content type)? > Thank you, > - Jeff Thompson > > Hey Jeff, > > I would love to see this too. I had a brief chat with some > IETF folk about the right way to organise this; it requires a > bit of coordination across Mozilla, IANA, and a few other > places. I'd love to have some help on this, atm I am still > working on the Erlang peer before I get stuck into the > javascript one. If there's interest in doing this I am happy > to give input based on what I've learned so far. > > One of the other crazy ideas I had was that, as the leaf nodes > don't have to be identical chunk size, one could in theory > cram an entire web site into a hash tree simply by putting the > files into the appropriate lower level chunks with some > structuring info, for example, I'm not sure how mime types etc > would be transported, and there are a few other hitches, but > in *theory* it's all achievable :). > > I would imagine it will need something like > http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/ and these are defined by > http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ which refers to > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2717 and > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2718 ; I have had some offers of > assistance in working through all this, with a recommendation > that getting a few of the core browser developers onside with > the proposal before doing all the paperwork. > > Currently my priority is to finish the Erlang PPSP code first :-). > > A+ > -- > Dave Cottlehuber > Sent from my PDP11 > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > --------------080807060508080401090105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I assume that a preliminary implementation would be a Firefox extension.  If the C++ code is current, it should be easy to compile an extension for a few platforms (Linux/OS X).  I see two projects on Github.  Are either of these current with the latest PPSP spec?
https://github.com/libswift/libswift
https://github.com/triblerteam/libswift

Thanks,
- Jeff T

On 2014-03-23 0:20, yunfei zhang wrote:
Hi Jeff, Dave and all,
   This is a good topic for the WG and after talking with Randell and Michael, the authors of RTCWEB data channel protocol, we conclude that it would be great if the WG, and of course the interested folks i ncluding you, can have some preliminary implementations/analysis on the (maybe) different means of incorporating PPSP into WebRTC before the WG goes further on this topic.
 
BR
Yunfei
 


2014-03-11 23:27 GMT+08:00 Jeff Thompson <jeff@thefirst.org>:
Hi Dave,

Good news that there is some motion on this. I think I can contribute.  I've had some experience implementing protocol handlers as a Firefox extension.  I wrote one to handle the NetInf ni protocol which has a hash-based URI similar to ppsp, and helped write one for the ndn protocol which has some more complex TCP communication behind the scenes.  These are able to render an entire web site in the space of documents referred to by URIs with the special protocol.


I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/

This uses a universal app: URI with an application-specific UUID which has to be in every URI, for example app:<UUID>/<hash>. You prefer this to using the ppsp: protocol directly, for example ppsp:<hash> ?  This is how the examples look on ppsp.me:
http://www.ppsp.me/start.html


I’m not sure how mime types etc would be transported

The NetInf people have thought about this when they wrote the "Naming Things with Hashes" RFC: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920 . They propose putting the content type in the URI, for example ppsp://2b2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3a6?ct=video/mpeg

Thanks,
- Jeff


On 2014-03-10 14:07, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
On 08. März 2014 at 17:38:46, Jeff Thompson (jeff@thefirst.org) wrote:

Hello Dave,
  A related question. What are the plans for Firefox to support ppsp
URLs, so that an HTML page can have, for example
  and Firefox (or an extension) will use PPSP to fetch and display an
image (or other content type)?
  Thank you,
- Jeff Thompson
Hey Jeff,

I would love to see this too. I had a brief chat with some IETF folk about the right way to organise this; it requires a bit of coordination across Mozilla, IANA, and a few other places. I’d love to have some help on this, atm I am still working on the Erlang peer before I get stuck into the javascript one. If there’s interest in doing this I am happy to give input based on what I’ve learned so far.

One of the other crazy ideas I had was that, as the leaf nodes don’t have to be identical chunk size, one could in theory cram an entire web site into a hash tree simply by putting the files into the appropriate lower level chunks with some structuring info, for example, I’m not sure how mime types etc would be transported, and there are a few other hitches, but in *theory* it’s all achievable :).

I would imagine it will need something like http://www.w3.org/TR/app-uri/ and these are defined by http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ which refers to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2717 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2718 ; I have had some offers of assistance in working through all this, with a recommendation that getting a few of the core browser developers onside with the proposal before doing all the paperwork.

Currently my priority is to finish the Erlang PPSP code first :-).

A+
--
Dave Cottlehuber
Sent from my PDP11

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp


--------------080807060508080401090105-- From nobody Tue Mar 25 01:09:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1201A0135 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:09:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.184 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRzsbAj89Doe for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CD01A010C for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB012B.vu.local (130.37.236.67) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:09:46 +0100 Received: from [145.100.100.60] (130.37.253.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:09:46 +0100 Message-ID: <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:09:45 +0100 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , riccardo References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> In-Reply-To: <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.253.20] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/w0rx4-apHWkiEPRlk2Y_fl7KEaY Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:09:51 -0000 On 25/03/2014 04:37, Jeff Thompson wrote: > I assume that a preliminary implementation would be a Firefox > extension. If the C++ code is current, it should be easy to compile an > extension for a few platforms (Linux/OS X). Hi all quick response: such a Firefox extension already exists under the name SwarmPlayer 3000, which was demoed at one of the IETF meetings. The last version supports VOD, and worked for Ogg containers. We had it working with live Ogg with a different backend, so that is definitely possible. It does require some maintenance, I had problems getting it to work with newer XUL runner SDKs, and a refactored version with nice HTTP fallback possibilities also ran into undiagnosed XUL runner errors. If there is interest, we can place the code in the libswift repo, see below. I see two projects on > Github. Are either of these current with the latest PPSP spec? > https://github.com/libswift/libswift This is where Riccardo and I maintain the reference implementation which implements the -08 spec. Nicer would be to add it to Firefox as a new protocol handler by default ;o) Regards, Arno From nobody Tue Mar 25 22:25:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CA61A00C0 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lnxbL9sQb8w9 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-x22b.google.com (mail-ee0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C321A00BF for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ee0-f43.google.com with SMTP id e53so1185686eek.16 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=TOCBtfPKG8UdJ22AYtKBIFuasmdtr8ezZNQxfgqYvCY=; b=XWl32Dky1Fs1NY7kTDcUI67n/JTVPBtld5eygXOdQUk1w2tqIkFU7+/MlfHjd4YAaf xivaSWAgShmr26s77zN4akYWD6+6PskN41CTnFp1TXqA0rorzthp3DPWrLqPa3Mpuy+i eOygnGa2LHHRqcbdVz3J7tB+xmFQuesQISHzlWJNj1KO+2AXT0/Ksc+T1pnt9NXT7VcQ JI3P4KNGU8XtrLRFyyYTxzeR/ACu/T5b2oLSDJL7KtOTxL+fxJn45zvV1vMIk9AmdO7v GZE/UXk9NCx6M/qGpxi7I6M/dXvvIr1vL8UtYlAyAoCQyrTgYyhNcX55OL3QJ1vMyiXD 5mqg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.14.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr6746092eem.71.1395811510516; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.76.132 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:25:10 +0100 Message-ID: From: Riccardo Petrocco To: Arno Bakker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c28b2e42014904f57bb1d6 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/-wL9_KQAoE6tOZqXX7bssHzDwoI Cc: ppsp Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 05:25:14 -0000 --001a11c28b2e42014904f57bb1d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, Just to add to what Arno sad in the previous mail. > https://github.com/libswift/libswift > > This is where Riccardo and I maintain the reference implementation which > implements the -08 spec. > The repo needs a bit of cleaning and removing of unnecessary/old branches (will soon be done). Also, I'm currently finishing some work on the congestion and flow control which I'll be merging soon. If you want to use it please refer to the master and devel branch (most up to date). In a couple of weeks everything will be ready. Regards, Riccardo --001a11c28b2e42014904f57bb1d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Just to add to what Arno sad in = the previous mail.

> htt= ps://github.com/libswift/libswift

This is where Riccardo and I maintain the reference implementation wh= ich
implements the -08 spec.

The repo needs= a bit of cleaning and removing of unnecessary/old branches (will soon be d= one).
Also, I'm currently finishing some work on the cong= estion and flow control which I'll be merging soon.
If you want to use it please refer to the master and devel branc= h (most up to date).
In a couple of weeks everything will be = ready.

Regards,
Riccardo

--001a11c28b2e42014904f57bb1d6-- From nobody Thu Mar 27 09:15:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668F71A0147 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hWcRVKQ5A-Uc for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com (mail-pa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94521A067E for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id bj1so3694098pad.2 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=ruT5BqKnnVLY41/VYqJdj4RV/j6D0chXZoMb5j2bGGo=; b=lNTWk6Am9Xyr7PmOR2MYiOxLdQQMwpzjJ0dOiJQQTEzE0fFyh3mHEVIB00gTBwwGta 0gYWTyoX5/OnlQ43MDBjkPugJKs/p7HAH8ryK7eXbWVwJWv9CkBfRM/tQIpdUSVA1LoT 0iAnpzwMfOszJHce9aPPFb1/cxGV7waPI+cJJOIDQ3ic9tJPuWoRk0aUN2YFxfD99EW0 0tPLvMPBurjjA/OoI9eAS6A2GAHcft75Be5unhRmxe4BGI9aFG77Wa2HzrBwSOsaWSId p/yDJenTwBXflYifehxbD78rJHQjqVozAGPUyjZmmWdhB1ey+UXPLdZ59KdHPgySxrm5 RZKg== X-Received: by 10.66.102.66 with SMTP id fm2mr2726671pab.51.1395936896273; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.8.2] (cpe-23-241-245-244.socal.res.rr.com. [23.241.245.244]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ci4sm10814347pbb.50.2014.03.27.09.14.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jeff Thompson Message-ID: <53344E77.6040705@thefirst.org> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:14:47 -0700 From: Jeff Thompson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arno@cs.vu.nl, ppsp@ietf.org, riccardo References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> In-Reply-To: <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090001070903020602010800" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/owj5pNMzePIcsOL82NWIiTq58Ug Subject: [ppsp] Content type for Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:14:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090001070903020602010800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2014-03-25 1:09, Arno Bakker wrote: > quick response: such a Firefox extension already exists under the name > SwarmPlayer 3000, which was demoed at one of the IETF meetings. The last > version supports VOD, and worked for Ogg containers. Hello Arno, SwarmPlayer seems hard-wired to display video. For a Firefox extension to use a ppsp link to fetch and display any content (images, HTML), it needs a way to report the MIME content type for Firefox. What do you think of the solution in RFC 6920 "Naming Things with Hashes" to include a ct parameter? The URI would look like: ppsp://5e2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3f1?ct=image/jpeg Thanks, - Jeff --------------090001070903020602010800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 2014-03-25 1:09, Arno Bakker wrote:
quick response: such a Firefox extension already exists under the name
SwarmPlayer 3000, which was demoed at one of the IETF meetings. The last
version supports VOD, and worked for Ogg containers.

Hello Arno,

SwarmPlayer seems hard-wired to display video. For a Firefox extension to use a ppsp link to fetch and display any content (images, HTML), it needs a way to report the MIME content type for Firefox. What do you think of the solution in RFC 6920 "Naming Things with Hashes" to include a ct parameter?  The URI would look like:
ppsp://5e2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3f1?ct=image/jpeg

Thanks,
- Jeff
--------------090001070903020602010800-- From nobody Sun Mar 30 04:45:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460721A01FF for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:34:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fN2XZkEanL59 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-x233.google.com (mail-ee0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c00::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243761A013B for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ee0-f51.google.com with SMTP id c13so132291eek.38 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:34:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jsonified.com; s=google; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=m3ZfuaYDuWU0UoAlJocYoJe8sGsnpphad0Ui7t84gP4=; b=KB5GAt+rJBdszJiaii7iBPB+qlQKsS2ixnNEX+/zV+iLB/LZgSvlRslg5V3XBqzL2H WlTSGpKqPykZz0tRecgk1FxFciddg0yWU/61pxUXLz/Aw+g6mgNH2gGnEc0volOEJXCM 92hpjt5SLx56IFhNtF2or9Je5sfSc74hYtLiM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=m3ZfuaYDuWU0UoAlJocYoJe8sGsnpphad0Ui7t84gP4=; b=TLv7uzbHvijyTpR2YdYwuTNtlitivr86AXXZRFWELKJF+/6mM7TFnso242XQXZnN0q 0fTTPDOFELjWAtxQdpu3RjcrcC4f1X7ZA9deJBoVJziYzeyn4+ZZEJ7K7ZF8y40qeQZE O3Lb3wvY9WHe/8emPaoE6fXWgKfybIrN+X26eCQxLWFDgus9z5yyznwZxhvenoJYHEo/ LPXTIwJ6fcpldANKy3wfb5Lf2YaMhVxLaI961XGQfVJpa+1tT+9hkU4dhFSy+UIRWOFo o9kIEVsx4d8KdnHmVc7/zaj71FgjI5hrXs1ylfPLsnQ6V/jpmfdjKKou65edxw+gzAZI 92Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmEAjP8WYUHcRbd2/xZi+3B7WAfbfiah1uUC67AD0LLQVkNFr+yWMidTqNKH9ydY2QsZMDq X-Received: by 10.14.200.195 with SMTP id z43mr31439072een.52.1395736480419; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from akai.jsonified.com (chello084112019176.2.11.vie.surfer.at. [84.112.19.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id m42sm38773355eex.21.2014.03.25.01.34.39 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:34:37 +0100 From: Dave Cottlehuber To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> X-Mailer: Airmail (237) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/3F1bl7c_z5yObXT9klipQjA3Rxo X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 04:45:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [ppsp] Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:34:44 -0000 On 25. M=C3=A4rz 2014 at 09:09:55, Arno Bakker (arno=40cs.vu.nl) wrote: > On 25/03/2014 04:37, Jeff Thompson wrote: > > I assume that a preliminary implementation would be a =46irefox > > extension. If the C++ code is current, it should be easy to compile a= n > > extension for a few platforms (Linux/OS X). > =20 > Hi all > =20 > quick response: such a =46irefox extension already exists under the nam= e > SwarmPlayer 3000, which was demoed at one of the IET=46 meetings. The l= ast > version supports VOD, and worked for Ogg containers. Sounds great=21 Yes, I=E2=80=99d love to see this (and any other similar = bits) published. > Nicer would be to add it to =46irefox as a new protocol handler by defa= ult ;o) :) one step at a time perhaps=21 =46irefox=E2=80=99s JS-exposed UDP support should land =7E June timeframe= , too. This would be an interesting combo to battle it out. -- =20 Dave Cottlehuber Sent from my PDP11 From nobody Mon Mar 31 00:01:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB191A0966 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 00:01:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPYMGxu1qvx9 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 00:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AEC1A0444 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 00:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:01:20 +0200 Received: from [10.0.0.104] (130.37.253.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:01:08 +0200 Message-ID: <533912BA.9080001@cs.vu.nl> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:01:14 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Thompson References: <531B4789.2000108@thefirst.org> <531F2B5F.4070002@thefirst.org> <5330FA10.6060502@thefirst.org> <533139C9.40404@cs.vu.nl> <53344E77.6040705@thefirst.org> In-Reply-To: <53344E77.6040705@thefirst.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.253.20] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ppsp/BCg0umhWz9aMFywEvkTYWgJTS1U Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Content type for Firefox ppsp URL support X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 07:01:17 -0000 On 27/03/2014 17:14, Jeff Thompson wrote: > On 2014-03-25 1:09, Arno Bakker wrote: >> quick response: such a Firefox extension already exists under the name >> SwarmPlayer 3000, which was demoed at one of the IETF meetings. The last >> version supports VOD, and worked for Ogg containers. > > Hello Arno, > > SwarmPlayer seems hard-wired to display video. For a Firefox extension > to use a ppsp link to fetch and display any content (images, HTML), it > needs a way to report the MIME content type for Firefox. What do you > think of the solution in RFC 6920 > "Naming Things with Hashes" to include a ct parameter? The URI would > look like: > ppsp://5e2fe5f1462e5b7ac4d70fa081e0169160b2d3f1?ct=image/jpeg > Hi Jeff et al that looks like a nice standardized proposal. SwarmPlayer currently needs some additional metdata parameters, e.g. Content Integrity Protection method, chunk addressing method used (see -08, Sec. 12.1.1) that we would need to define. And anomalies like Firefox requiring a X-Content-Duration reply header (=duration of video in seconds) from a protocol handler. I will try to upload the SwarmPlayer code this wednesday. CU, Arno