From nobody Thu Jan 12 14:27:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: recentattendees@ietf.org Delivered-To: recentattendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDB1128824; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:26:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148426001883.2870.14607363629587088622.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:26:58 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, 98all@ietf.org Subject: [Recentattendees] IETF 98 Hackathon Registration and Meeting Information X-BeenThere: recentattendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Reply-To: IETF Agenda List-Id: Recent IETF Attendees List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 22:26:59 -0000 IETF 98 Chicago, IL, USA March 26-31, 2017 Host: Ericsson IETF 98 Information: http://ietf.org/meeting/98/index.html Register online at: http://ietf.org/meeting/register.html 1. Registration 2. Visas & Letters of Invitation 3. Accommodations 4. Code Sprint 5. Hackathon 6. IETF 98 Meeting Wiki 1. Registration: A. Early-Bird Registration: USD 700, if paid in full prior to 23:59 UTC 2017-03-17 B. After Early-Bird cutoff: USD 875 C. Full-time Student Registrations: USD 150 (with proper ID) D. One Day Pass Registration: USD 375 E. Registration Cancellation Cutoff for registration cancellation is Monday, 20 March 2017 at UTC 23:59. Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation fee if requested by that date and time F. Online Registration and Payment ends Friday, 24 March, 2017, 17:00 local Chicago time G. On-site Registration begins on Sunday, 26 March 2017 at 10:00 local Chicago time 2. Visas & Letters of Invitation: If you have already registered for IETF 98 you may request a local letter of invitation through a link in your confirmation email. If you have yet to register and require a LOI, you will be able to generate one during the registration process. 3. Accommodations: 1. Swissotel Chicago (Headquarters Hotel) - BLOCK IS CURRENTLY FULL Room Rate: $169 (single/double)/$199 (triple) USD. Includes in-room high-speed Internet. Room rates DO NOT include a daily breakfast buffet or occupancy tax of 17.4% (taxes subject to change) Reservation Cutoff Date: 7 March 2017 Cancel with No Penalty: 48 hours prior to arrival Distance to Meeting Venue: N/A More detail at: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/98/hotel.html Reservations: https://aws.passkey.com/go/ietf2017 2. Fairmont Chicago (Overflow hotel, block of 350) Room Rate: $169 (single/double)/$199 (triple) USD. Includes in-room high-speed Internet. Room rates DO NOT include a daily breakfast buffet or occupancy tax of 17.4% (taxes subject to change) Reservations Cutoff Date: 2 March 2017 Cancel with No Penalty: Up to 48 hours prior to check-in/arrival Distance to Meeting Venue: 4 minute walk Reservations: https://aws.passkey.com/go/interneteng 4. Code Sprint The IETF 98 Code Sprint in Chicago will, as always, let you work on fixing those things about the datatracker which you most urgently desire to do something about. When: Saturday, March 25 from 09:30 to 18:00 Where: Swissotel Chicago, Room TBD Information: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/IETF98Sprint Sign-Up: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/IETF98SprintSignUp Mailing List: ​https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codesprints For information on setting up your environment, code checkout and commit, etc., see: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/SprintCoderSetup The Sprint will be run according to the IETFSprintHowto: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/IETFSprintHowto 5. Hackathon The IETF is holding a Hackathon at IETF 98 to encourage developers to discuss, collaborate and develop utilities, ideas, sample code and solutions that show practical implementations of IETF standards. When: Saturday March 25 and Sunday March 26 Where: Swissotel Chicago, Room TBD Signup for the Hackathon: https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf98/hackathonregistration.py More information can be found here: http://ietf.org/hackathon/98-hackathon.html Keep up to date by subscribing to: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon The IETF is still seeking a Hackathon sponsor for 2017! For more information please see: https://iaoc.ietf.org/host-and-sponsorship.html Contact Howard Baggott if interested, baggott@isoc.org. The Hackathon is free to attend and open to all. Extend the invitation to colleagues outside the IETF! Descriptions and information regarding the technologies for the hackathon are located on the IETF 98 Meeting Wiki: https://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/98hackathon Don’t see anything that interests you? Feel free to add your preferred technology to the list, sign up as its Champion and show up to work on it. Note: you must login to the wiki to add content. If you do add a new technology, we strongly suggest that you send an email to hackathon@ietf.org to let others know. You may generate interest in your technology, and find other people who want to contribute to it. To request a wiki account, please click on the “login” button on the bottom right corner of the page, and choose “register.” If you need a new password please click on the “login” button on the bottom right corner of the page and choose “Send new password.” 6. IETF 98 Meeting Wiki The IETF 98 meeting wiki (Your Wiki) has been created to exchange information regarding IETF 98. Your IETF 98 (Chicago) wiki can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/ietf98 To create an account, click ‘Login’ at the bottom of the wiki and then ‘Register’. If you have forgotten your password, you may reset it with the "Send new password" link. From nobody Mon Jan 30 11:58:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: recentattendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: recentattendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F651129B3B; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CpIVrhCoyT8b; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from agwhqht.amgreetings.com (agwhqht.amgreetings.com [207.58.192.4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2DA9129B3D; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from USCLES544.agna.amgreetings.com ([fe80::f5de:4c30:bc26:d70a]) by USCLES532.agna.amgreetings.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:57:44 -0500 From: "MH Michael Hammer (5304)" To: James Seng Thread-Topic: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Thread-Index: AQHSemMdtz+BYbM/YUyZmAb3LjspL6FRbwdA Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 19:57:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160525220818.18333.71186.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <700D9CB7-4EFD-459B-AA12-133A6BB04E90@senki.org> <1C8639E6-1058-4D04-84ED-0C354E6567D1@cisco.com> <9CBABA69-1814-4676-9C69-E129F04AD24C@cisco.com> <5DFDEA43-8156-491D-A300-2BCED1AED1A4@gmail.com> <5747909C.20403@si6networks.com> <955df2106aa2e12cefbd450be022e779.squirrel@www.trepanning.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.144.6.48] x-kse-attachmentfiltering-interceptor-info: protection disabled x-kse-serverinfo: USCLES532.agna.amgreetings.com, 9 x-kse-antivirus-interceptor-info: scan successful x-kse-antivirus-info: Clean, bases: 1/30/2017 6:13:00 PM x-kse-dlp-scaninfo: Skipped Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE39F90A45FF0C49A1EA229FC9899B052BD4B85DUSCLES544agnaam_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "recentattendees@ietf.org" , "Thompson, Jeff" , Dan Harkins , "Ietf@Ietf. Org" Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: recentattendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Recent IETF Attendees List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 19:57:54 -0000 --_000_CE39F90A45FF0C49A1EA229FC9899B052BD4B85DUSCLES544agnaam_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpKYW1lcywNCg0KU2VlaW5nIGFzIHRoZSBlbWFpbCB5b3UgY2hvc2UgdG8gcXVvdGUgd2FzIGEg cmVzcG9uc2UgdG8gbXkgZW1haWwgZnJvbSBNYXkgMjd0aCwgMjAxNiwgSeKAmW0gbGVmdCB0cnlp bmcgdG8gZGVjaWRlIGlmIHlvdSB3ZXJlIHJlc3BvbmRpbmcgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IHRvIG15IGNv bW1lbnRzIG9yIHRoYXQgZWFybGllciB0aHJlYWQgaW4gZ2VuZXJhbC4gSSBzdGlsbCBzdGFuZCBi eSBteSBzdGF0ZW1lbnRzIGV2ZW4gaWYgaXQgbWVhbnMgdGhhdCB0aGUgdWx0aW1hdGUgSUVURiBk ZWNpc2lvbiBpcyBub3QgdG8gaG9sZCBtZWV0aW5ncyBpbiB0aGUgVVNBIOKAkyBJIHRoaW5rIHlv dXIgcHJvZ25vc3RpY2F0aW9uIHVuZm9ydHVuYXRlbHkgd2FzIGNvcnJlY3QuIEkgd2FzIG5vdCBi 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SZEBg5VWY0B0; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from colo.trepanning.net (colo.trepanning.net [69.55.226.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162B8129B92; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from thinny.local (69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by colo.trepanning.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3156DA888004; Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:14:04 -0800 (PST) To: James Seng , "MH Michael Hammer (5304)" References: <20160525220818.18333.71186.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <700D9CB7-4EFD-459B-AA12-133A6BB04E90@senki.org> <1C8639E6-1058-4D04-84ED-0C354E6567D1@cisco.com> <9CBABA69-1814-4676-9C69-E129F04AD24C@cisco.com> <5DFDEA43-8156-491D-A300-2BCED1AED1A4@gmail.com> <5747909C.20403@si6networks.com> <955df2106aa2e12cefbd450be022e779.squirrel@www.trepanning.net> From: Dan Harkins Message-ID: <7ff1da8c-6f0b-fa85-49b8-f654f848c628@lounge.org> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:14:03 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------931A8BBFC8D440D845A0F540" Archived-At: Cc: "recentattendees@ietf.org" , "Thompson, Jeff" , "Ietf@Ietf. Org" Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: recentattendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Recent IETF Attendees List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 20:14:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------931A8BBFC8D440D845A0F540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/29/17 11:08 AM, James Seng wrote: > I rescind my previous comment that the scenario I painted is rhetorical. > > None of our US fellow IETFers here have any moral authority to talk > about "inclusive" ever again. I don't derive my moral authority from my government and you have no standing to decide whether I wield it or not. Moral preening has no place in the IETF. Please stop. Dan. > -James Seng > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:44 AM, James Seng > wrote: > > Since after 9-11, things have change a lot for United States[1]. > > Especially for TSA, I remember going to SFO the first time after > 9-11, it took me 2 hours just to clear the security and I missed > my flight. I also remember pre 9-11, I could get into US for less > than 15-20mins. > > Now, for my American friends who pay in the price in time, let me > tell you what we non-American citizen has to do to get into US > after 9-11. We have been tagged, photographed, fingerprinted, all > our 10 fingers every time we have to enter US. We have been > systematically profiled, often by racial or nationality, and some > of us have to go through enhanced body-to-body search everytime we > cross security. I was put in a "Muslim" basket been a Malaysian > for a while so ... And we have to do it with a smile because if > any of us pull of a stunt like Aaron Tobey[2], we could be denied > our entry and possibility forever. > > My wife complains that the over the last decade I have put on a > lot of weight and asked me to check my photos. Unfortunately, I > don't like selfie nor do I like to take pictures of myself. But I > told her not to worry as TSA has a complete profile of me becoming > fat over the years. > > Today, we all saw a US President may-to-be calling up to forbid > Muslim to enter US, to build walls to prevent people from the > south, who threaten to get even tougher to foreigners. > > So by the same principle that Jeff is advocate, that we hold IETF > meeting where "law declares some people less valid", > I prognosticate we may no longer able to hold our meetings in US. > > [1] > http://www.ibtimes.com/pulse/united-states-after-911-6-things-have-changed-2001-2093156 > > > > [2] http://dailylounge.com/the-daily/entry/how-to-fight-the-tsa > > > ps: This is rhetorical to put any doubt in rest. I love US even > though getting there is still a pain for me. > > -James Seng > > > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 9:34 PM, MH Michael Hammer (5304) > > wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Thompson, Jeff > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 3:55 AM > > To: Dan Harkins > > Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org > ; Ietf@Ietf. Org > > Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no > go for IETF > > 100 > > > > On 2016/5/26, 21:11:51, "Recentattendees on behalf of Dan > Harkins" > > on behalf of > dharkins@lounge.org > > > wrote: > > > > > I would also like to suggest that the ability of certain > members to > > >bring their family on a vacation that coincides with an > IETF should not > > >be a governing factor in venue selection. Many people like > to launder a > > >business trip into a family vacation (myself > > >included!) but that's not why the IETF exists and it should > have no > > >bearing on where we meet. > > > > So then, the IETF policy would read ³The IETF may hold > meetings in countries > > where the law declares some people less valid. If you are > such a person, then > > the IETF recommends that to avoid trouble with the law you > should hide who > > you are, including not bringing your family.² > > > > Is this the organization that the IETF is going to be? > > > > - Jeff > > > > Jeff, > > Is there any country in the world that meets the standard your > comment implies should be the IETF policy? Is this a case of > perfection being the enemy of good? Perhaps it is a case of > perfection being the enemy of reality. I don't know what IETF > policy should be but I do recognize that there are very real > limitations that constrain choices. I'll also point out that > the choices made will constrain the choices of participants. > I'm not advocating for any particular choice by the IETF with > regard to meeting locations. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Recentattendees mailing list > Recentattendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/recentattendees > > > > > > -- > -James Seng > > > > > -- > -James Seng --------------931A8BBFC8D440D845A0F540 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 1/29/17 11:08 AM, James Seng wrote:
I rescind my previous comment that the scenario I painted is rhetorical.

None of our US fellow IETFers here have any moral authority to talk about "inclusive" ever again.

  I don't derive my moral authority from my government and you have no
standing to decide whether I wield it or not.

  Moral preening has no place in the IETF. Please stop.

  Dan.
-James Seng

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:44 AM, James Seng <james.seng@gmail.com> wrote:
Since after 9-11, things have change a lot for United States[1].

Especially for TSA, I remember going to SFO the first time after 9-11, it took me 2 hours just to clear the security and I missed my flight. I also remember pre 9-11, I could get into US for less than 15-20mins. 

Now, for my American friends who pay in the price in time, let me tell you what we non-American citizen has to do to get into US after 9-11. We have been tagged, photographed, fingerprinted, all our 10 fingers every time we have to enter US. We have been systematically profiled, often by racial or nationality, and some of us have to go through enhanced body-to-body search everytime we cross security. I was put in a "Muslim" basket been a Malaysian for a while so ... And we have to do it with a smile because if any of us pull of a stunt like Aaron Tobey[2], we could be denied our entry and possibility forever.

My wife complains that the over the last decade I have put on a lot of weight and asked me to check my photos. Unfortunately, I don't like selfie nor do I like to take pictures of myself. But I told her not to worry as TSA has a complete profile of me becoming fat over the years. 

Today, we all saw a US President may-to-be calling up to forbid Muslim to enter US, to build walls to prevent people from the south, who threaten to get even tougher to foreigners.

So by the same principle that Jeff is advocate, that we hold IETF meeting where "law declares some people less valid", I prognosticate we may no longer able to hold our meetings in US.

[1] http://www.ibtimes.com/pulse/united-states-after-911-6-things-have-changed-2001-2093156 

[2] http://dailylounge.com/the-daily/entry/how-to-fight-the-tsa

ps: This is rhetorical to put any doubt in rest. I love US even though getting there is still a pain for me.

-James Seng



On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 9:34 PM, MH Michael Hammer (5304) <MHammer@ag.com> wrote:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thompson, Jeff
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 3:55 AM
> To: Dan Harkins
> Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org; Ietf@Ietf. Org
> Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF
> 100
>
> On 2016/5/26, 21:11:51, "Recentattendees on behalf of Dan Harkins"
> <recentattendees-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of dharkins@lounge.org>
> wrote:
>
> >  I would also like to suggest that the ability of certain members to
> >bring their family on a vacation that coincides with an IETF should not
> >be a governing factor in venue selection. Many people like to launder a
> >business trip into a family vacation (myself
> >included!) but that's not why the IETF exists and it should have no
> >bearing on where we meet.
>
> So then, the IETF policy would read ³The IETF may hold meetings in countries
> where the law declares some people less valid. If you are such a person, then
> the IETF recommends that to avoid trouble with the law you should hide who
> you are, including not bringing your family.²
>
> Is this the organization that the IETF is going to be?
>
> - Jeff
>

Jeff,

Is there any country in the world that meets the standard your comment implies should be the IETF policy? Is this a case of perfection being the enemy of good? Perhaps it is a case of perfection being the enemy of reality. I don't know what IETF policy should be but I do recognize that there are very real limitations that constrain choices. I'll also point out that the choices made will constrain the choices of participants. I'm not advocating for any particular choice by the IETF with regard to meeting locations.

Mike

_______________________________________________
Recentattendees mailing list
Recentattendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/recentattendees



--
-James Seng



--
-James Seng

--------------931A8BBFC8D440D845A0F540-- From nobody Tue Jan 31 01:44:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: recentattendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: recentattendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C74129643; Tue, 31 Jan 2017 01:44:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qcCkJc22czDH; Tue, 31 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0E4A1293F0; Tue, 31 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id c7so212328116itd.1; Tue, 31 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QJp6kuf6n/FMUwA5gnktOimeQqkorsokLEyaQzVryvs=; b=mn5FIN9HFeVmUEJgTQRNnZiX3F9rQYNoIolddodhYjZNXAh9iL2K9qJUj7CH1pN+Or xRPOZGqbURJMTUL7VxMF5PJyY07abinOWmyZv/6sK5TyVAKTVBSHU0iB/I1kauo4TXTs Iu70jmpLa40LLmklb4IEZlYyKwDGNs4976Xd77/U50jfBDGEYCe88BGG4uMfCReCjsOP hvun8QBrnpKGurrTusR9300xwxlraRHxgl7HI5guXn3V5Z1+YLZZYwPJXBHOEHqoB9Vb a3ooco5purt2tscHM6fT89saVJ6/KnuxfKKd5/ONctA45JCyAnC7GzeH2F4E2XCVn+2N k4Hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QJp6kuf6n/FMUwA5gnktOimeQqkorsokLEyaQzVryvs=; b=DsXtfK+FWZd0RWDRj7OobTFyDzWPE+x6PYk/Q3PuWKDPU0mod52hUv2xfgRPvA9AyT hv/i5wMOGLPsT4Jinv9FyDDt6FzEmH3anhPPTH9pLg0baDy5Gm0UXkgbF5aASDly23QU EPdjKLvCqsQmLr7kiz8xUMCmv7npkMxxbNHSKbEuOZgqj119tBthoiceDR/SPa9xCEzE v3LopCTGcaod8mlNDxOEBLYiZ/MkNlSthJz/5hoTGwC8ecYyl34VuRmST5NdwmBI5YGZ fNLLHYlqipoOUSf/8HTD0ca6jJA68kq5xb4pTZKGfMZfC26Fzp6eD5tjHrwrSp0N5dpJ 5daw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLedT+Db54GSt+1EndBehljt0y2M3y6/iT7oPPwjJ+ana6eJp153pYdJkiUXDjtxzCqhVcU2HOfV1g8YQ== X-Received: by 10.36.112.146 with SMTP id f140mr18886926itc.51.1485855858948; Tue, 31 Jan 2017 01:44:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.178.210 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2017 01:44:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20160525220818.18333.71186.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <700D9CB7-4EFD-459B-AA12-133A6BB04E90@senki.org> <1C8639E6-1058-4D04-84ED-0C354E6567D1@cisco.com> <9CBABA69-1814-4676-9C69-E129F04AD24C@cisco.com> <5DFDEA43-8156-491D-A300-2BCED1AED1A4@gmail.com> <5747909C.20403@si6networks.com> <955df2106aa2e12cefbd450be022e779.squirrel@www.trepanning.net> From: Naeem Khademi Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:44:18 +0100 Message-ID: To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f7318a905ec054760c6fe Archived-At: Cc: "recentattendees@ietf.org" , "Ietf@Ietf. Org" Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: recentattendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Recent IETF Attendees List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 09:44:23 -0000 --001a113f7318a905ec054760c6fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 9:58 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > If we include such a cancellation clause, we should also have an insuranc= e > contract to cover the non-refundable cost such as flights and hotels that > some participants book 1 year in advance in order to have it cheaper. > The next IETF in the US after Chicago, would be in July 2018 in SF. I don't think it's even possible to buy a flight ticket for that time as of now (most airlines wouldn't do such pre-sale). So, it's pretty much possible to relocate that meeting elsewhere with causing no loss to anyone's already-made plans. Regards, Naeem > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Recentattendees en nombre de "MH > Michael Hammer (5304)" > Responder a: > Fecha: lunes, 30 de enero de 2017, 20:57 > Para: James Seng > CC: "recentattendees@ietf.org" , "Thompson, > Jeff" , Dan Harkins , > "Ietf@Ietf. Org" > Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 1= 00 > > > James, > > Seeing as the email you chose to quote was a response to my email fro= m > May 27th, 2016, I=E2=80=99m left trying to decide if you were responding > specifically > to my comments or that earlier thread in general. I still stand by m= y > statements even if it means that the ultimate IETF decision is not to hol= d > meetings in the USA =E2=80=93 I think your prognostication unfortunately = was > correct. I was not being rhetorical in my > earlier comments =E2=80=93 We, as participants engaged in technical = efforts > across national boundaries need to figure out pragmatic ways of ensuring > our efforts and activities continue to function despite decisions by > specific localities. > > Looking forward, it might be reasonable for IETF to include a > cancellation clause based on the government of the host country engaging = in > an act like the ban > (after the contract has been signed.) > > Mike > > From: James Seng [mailto:james.seng@gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:08 PM > To: MH Michael Hammer (5304) > Cc: Thompson, Jeff; Dan Harkins; recentattendees@ietf.org; Ietf@Ietf. > Org > Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for > IETF 100 > > > > I rescind my previous comment that the scenario I painted is > rhetorical. > > > > None of our US fellow IETFers here have any moral authority to talk > about "inclusive" ever again. > > > > -James Seng > > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:44 AM, James Seng > wrote: > Since after 9-11, things have change a lot for United States[1]. > > > > Especially for TSA, I remember going to SFO the first time after 9-11= , > it took me 2 hours just to clear the security and I missed my flight. I > also remember pre 9-11, I could get into US for > less than 15-20mins. > > > > Now, for my American friends who pay in the price in time, let me tel= l > you what we non-American citizen has to do to get into US after 9-11. We > have been tagged, photographed, fingerprinted, > all our 10 fingers every time we have to enter US. We have been > systematically profiled, often by racial or nationality, and some of us > have to go through enhanced body-to-body search everytime we cross > security. I was put in a "Muslim" basket been a Malaysian > for a while so ... And we have to do it with a smile because if any > of us pull of a stunt like Aaron Tobey[2], we could be denied our entry a= nd > possibility forever. > > > > My wife complains that the over the last decade I have put on a lot o= f > weight and asked me to check my photos. Unfortunately, I don't like selfi= e > nor do I like to take pictures of myself. But > I told her not to worry as TSA has a complete profile of me becoming > fat over the years. > > > > Today, we all saw a US President may-to-be calling up to forbid Musli= m > to enter US, to build walls to prevent people from the south, who threate= n > to get even tougher to foreigners. > > > > So by the same principle that Jeff is advocate, that we hold IETF > meeting where "law declares some people less valid", I prognosticate we m= ay > no longer able to hold our meetings in US. > > > > [1] > http://www.ibtimes.com/pulse/united-states-after-911-6- > things-have-changed-2001-2093156 united-states-after-911-6-things-have-changed-2001-2093156> > > > > > [2] > http://dailylounge.com/the-daily/entry/how-to-fight-the-tsa < > http://dailylounge.com/the-daily/entry/how-to-fight-the-tsa> > > > > ps: This is rhetorical to put any doubt in rest. I love US even thoug= h > getting there is still a pain for me. > > > > -James Seng > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 9:34 PM, MH Michael Hammer (5304) < > MHammer@ag.com> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thompson, > Jeff > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 3:55 AM > > To: Dan Harkins > > Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org; Ietf@Ietf. Org > > Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for > IETF > > 100 > > > > On 2016/5/26, 21:11:51, "Recentattendees on behalf of Dan Harkins" > > dharkins@lounge.org> > > wrote: > > > > > I would also like to suggest that the ability of certain members > to > > >bring their family on a vacation that coincides with an IETF shoul= d > not > > >be a governing factor in venue selection. Many people like to > launder a > > >business trip into a family vacation (myself > > >included!) but that's not why the IETF exists and it should have n= o > > >bearing on where we meet. > > > > So then, the IETF policy would read =C2=B3The IETF may hold meeting= s in > countries > > where the law declares some people less valid. If you are such a > person, then > > the IETF recommends that to avoid trouble with the law you should > hide who > > you are, including not bringing your family.=C2=B2 > > > > Is this the organization that the IETF is going to be? > > > > - Jeff > > > > Jeff, > > Is there any country in the world that meets the standard your commen= t > implies should be the IETF policy? Is this a case of perfection being the > enemy of good? Perhaps it is a case of perfection being the enemy of > reality. I don't know what IETF policy should > be but I do recognize that there are very real limitations that > constrain choices. I'll also point out that the choices made will constra= in > the choices of participants. I'm not advocating for any particular choice > by the IETF with regard to meeting locations. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Recentattendees mailing list > Recentattendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/recentattendees > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -James Seng > > > > > > > > > > -- > -James Seng > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Recentattendees mailing list > Recentattendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/recentattendees > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > --001a113f7318a905ec054760c6fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 9:58 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.= palet@consulintel.es> wrote:

Regards,
Jordi


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Recentattendees <recentattendees-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de "MH Michae= l Hammer (5304)" <MHammer@ag.com<= /a>>
Responder a: <MHammer@ag.com> Fecha: lunes, 30 de enero de 2017, 20:57
Para: James Seng <james.seng@gma= il.com>
CC: "recentattendees@ietf.= org" <recentattende= es@ietf.org>, "Thompson, Jeff" <jefft0@remap.ucla.edu>, Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>, "Ietf@Ietf. = Org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 James,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Seeing as the email you chose to quote was a response to my e= mail from May 27th, 2016, I=E2=80=99m left trying to decide if you were res= ponding specifically
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to my comments or that earlier thread in general. I sti= ll stand by my statements even if it means that the ultimate IETF decision = is not to hold meetings in the USA =E2=80=93 I think your prognostication u= nfortunately was correct. I was not being rhetorical in my
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0earlier comments =E2=80=93 We, as participants engaged = in technical efforts across national boundaries need to figure out pragmati= c ways of ensuring our efforts and activities continue to function despite = decisions by specific localities.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Looking forward, it might be reasonable for IETF to include a= cancellation clause based on the government of the host country engaging i= n an act like the ban
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(after the contract has been signed.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mike

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: James Seng [mailto:james.seng@gmail.com]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:08 PM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: MH Michael Hammer (5304)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cc: Thompson, Jeff; Dan Harkins; recentattendees@ietf.org; Ietf@Ietf. Org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no = go for IETF 100



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I rescind my previous comment that the scenario I painted is = rhetorical.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 None of our US fellow IETFers here have any moral authority t= o talk about "inclusive" ever again.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -James Seng


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:44 AM, James Seng <james.seng@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Since after 9-11, things have change a lot for United States[= 1].



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Especially for TSA, I remember going to SFO the first time af= ter 9-11, it took me 2 hours just to clear the security and I missed my fli= ght. I also remember pre 9-11, I could get into US for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less than 15-20mins.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Now, for my American friends who pay in the price in time, le= t me tell you what we non-American citizen has to do to get into US after 9= -11. We have been tagged, photographed, fingerprinted,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all our 10 fingers every time we have to enter US. We h= ave been systematically profiled, often by racial or nationality, and some = of us have to go through enhanced body-to-body search everytime we cross se= curity. I was put in a "Muslim" basket been a Malaysian
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for a while so ... And we have to do it with a smile be= cause if any of us pull of a stunt like Aaron Tobey[2], we could be denied = our entry and possibility forever.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 My wife complains that the over the last decade I have put on= a lot of weight and asked me to check my photos. Unfortunately, I don'= t like selfie nor do I like to take pictures of myself. But
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I told her not to worry as TSA has a complete profile o= f me becoming fat over the years.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Today, we all saw a US President may-to-be calling up to forb= id Muslim to enter US, to build walls to prevent people from the south, who= threaten to get even tougher to foreigners.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So by the same principle that Jeff is advocate, that we hold = IETF meeting where "law declares some people less valid", I progn= osticate we may no longer able to hold our meetings in US.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [1]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ibtimes.com/pulse/united-states-after-911-6-things-have-changed-2001-2093156 <http://www.ibtimes.com/pulse/unite= d-states-after-911-6-things-have-changed-2001-2093156>




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [2]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://dailylounge.com/the-= daily/entry/how-to-fight-the-tsa <http://dailylounge.com/the-daily/entry/how-to-fight-the-tsa>



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ps: This is rhetorical to put any doubt in rest. I love US ev= en though getting there is still a pain for me.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -James Seng







=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 9:34 PM, MH Michael Hammer (5304) <= ;MHammer@ag.com> wrote:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thompson, Jeff
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 3:55 AM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Dan Harkins
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cc: recentat= tendees@ietf.org; Ietf@Ietf. Org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore g= o/no go for IETF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 100
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 2016/5/26, 21:11:51, "Recentattendees on behalf = of Dan Harkins"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <= recentattendees-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dharkins@lounge.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 I would also like to suggest that the ability= of certain members to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >bring their family on a vacation that coincides with= an IETF should not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >be a governing factor in venue selection. Many peopl= e like to launder a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >business trip into a family vacation (myself
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >included!) but that's not why the IETF exists an= d it should have no
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >bearing on where we meet.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So then, the IETF policy would read =C2=B3The IETF may h= old meetings in countries
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > where the law declares some people less valid. If you ar= e such a person, then
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the IETF recommends that to avoid trouble with the law y= ou should hide who
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > you are, including not bringing your family.=C2=B2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Is this the organization that the IETF is going to be? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Jeff
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Is there any country in the world that meets the standard you= r comment implies should be the IETF policy? Is this a case of perfection b= eing the enemy of good? Perhaps it is a case of perfection being the enemy = of reality. I don't know what IETF policy should
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be but I do recognize that there are very real limitati= ons that constrain choices. I'll also point out that the choices made w= ill constrain the choices of participants. I'm not advocating for any p= articular choice by the IETF with regard to meeting locations.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mike

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recentattendees mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recentattendees@i= etf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/recentattendees










=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -James Seng









=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -James Seng








=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recentattendees mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recentattendees@i= etf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/recentattendees




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
= http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited.




--001a113f7318a905ec054760c6fe--