
From nobody Fri Jul  2 15:07:22 2021
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
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Subject: [rtcweb] rtcweb - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 111
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Dear Liz Flynn,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    rtcweb Session 1 (1:00 requested)
    Thursday, 29 July 2021, Session III 1500-1600
    Room Name: Room 1 size: 501
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/rtcweb.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers
Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area
Session Requester: Liz Flynn


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1 Hour
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 








People who must be present:
  Murray Kucherawy
  Sean Turner
  Ted Hardie

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/ScBnMJtOJt1Fba74WVS1ApVlpjw>
Subject: [rtcweb] FW: [MMUSIC] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
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FYI,

BUNDLEbis is moving forward.

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: mmusic <mmusic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Flemming Andreasen via =
Datatracker
Sent: tiistai 6. hein=E4kuuta 2021 21.40
To: superuser@gmail.com
Cc: fandreas@cisco.com; mmusic-chairs@ietf.org; iesg-secretary@ietf.org; mm=
usic@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8=
843bis-04

Flemming Andreasen has requested publication of draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bi=
s-04 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the MMUSIC working group.

Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis/


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic


From nobody Sat Jul 10 18:11:15 2021
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From: Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 18:10:51 -0700
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--000000000000ed4b4805c6cead20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

As discussed at IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&url2=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Justin
Uberti <justin@uberti.name>



A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
Revision:       00
Title:          JavaScript Session Establishment Protocol (JSEP)
Document date:  2021-07-10
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          106
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/
Html:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis


Abstract:
   This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScript
   application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia session
   via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API and
   discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.

   This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.




The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000ed4b4805c6cead20
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">As discussed at IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rf=
c8829.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rf=
c8829bis-00.txt">https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://www.rfc-edit=
or.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ube=
rti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt</a><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>Fr=
om: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM<b=
r>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.t=
xt<br>To: Cullen Jennings &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@iii.ca">fluffy@iii.c=
a</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</=
a>&gt;, Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name">justin@uber=
ti.name</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bi=
s<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JavaScript Session Establishment P=
rotocol (JSEP)<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2021-07-10<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 106<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829b=
is-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/</a><b=
r>
Html:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829=
bis-00.html</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScri=
pt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia ses=
sion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API a=
nd<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></div>

--000000000000ed4b4805c6cead20--


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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 22:17:08 -0400
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--000000000000bcb19705c6cf9af8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I have a question regarding max-compat in subsequent offers with iceRestart:

Should new candidates be gathered for all m= lines or only for the m=lines
which are not bundled after the previous offer/answer exchange?

I would suggest that new candidates should be gathered for all m=lines to
be compatible with 3PCC.

Thank You,
_____________
Roman Shpount


On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 9:11 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name> wrote:

> As discussed at IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:
> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&url2=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
> To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Justin
> Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
> Revision:       00
> Title:          JavaScript Session Establishment Protocol (JSEP)
> Document date:  2021-07-10
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          106
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/
> Html:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScript
>    application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia session
>    via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API and
>    discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.
>
>    This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.
>
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--000000000000bcb19705c6cf9af8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I have a question regarding <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-size:13.3333px">max-compat in subsequent offers with iceRestart:</sp=
an><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></s=
pan></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3=
333px">Should new candidates be gathered for all m=3D lines or only for the=
 m=3Dlines which are not bundled after the previous offer/answer exchange?<=
/span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.3333px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px">I would suggest that new candidates should be gath=
ered for all m=3Dlines to be compatible with 3PCC.</span></font></div><div>=
<font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></span></fo=
nt></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px">T=
hank You,<br></span></font><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div></di=
v><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 9:11 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:justin@uberti.name">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">As discussed at=
 IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdif=
f?url1=3Dhttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.=
ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt" target=3D"_blank=
">https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8=
829.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8=
829bis-00.txt</a><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <span dir=
=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03=
 PM<br>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis=
-00.txt<br>To: Cullen Jennings &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@iii.ca" target=
=3D"_blank">fluffy@iii.ca</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt;=
<br></div><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bi=
s<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JavaScript Session Establishment P=
rotocol (JSEP)<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2021-07-10<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 106<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829b=
is-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/</a><b=
r>
Html:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829=
bis-00.html</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScri=
pt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia ses=
sion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API a=
nd<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000bcb19705c6cf9af8--


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From: Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 23:33:29 -0400
Message-ID: <CALe60zDTJ0dGJBsdm3xdeNQgb_u1n20_3FJ-ueipzcFTjcF7VQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Cc: RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
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Section 3.5.1 makes clear that only sections that are restarting are
affected:

   Note that gathering phases only gather the candidates needed by
   new/recycled/restarting "m=" sections; other "m=" sections continue
   to use their existing candidates.  Also, if an "m=" section is
   bundled (either by a successful bundle negotiation or by being marked
   as bundle-only), then candidates will be gathered and exchanged for
   that "m=" section if and only if its MID item is a BUNDLE-tag, as
   described in [RFC8843 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8843>].


On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 7:17 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

> I have a question regarding max-compat in subsequent offers with
> iceRestart:
>
> Should new candidates be gathered for all m= lines or only for the m=lines
> which are not bundled after the previous offer/answer exchange?
>
> I would suggest that new candidates should be gathered for all m=lines to
> be compatible with 3PCC.
>
> Thank You,
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 9:11 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name> wrote:
>
>> As discussed at IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&url2=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>> Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>> To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
>> Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
>>
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:           draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
>> Revision:       00
>> Title:          JavaScript Session Establishment Protocol (JSEP)
>> Document date:  2021-07-10
>> Group:          Individual Submission
>> Pages:          106
>> URL:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>> Status:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/
>> Html:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html
>> Htmlized:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScript
>>    application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia session
>>    via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API and
>>    discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.
>>
>>    This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>

--000000000000b8bf9e05c6d0aba6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Section 3.5.1 makes clear that only sections that are res=
tarting are affected:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><p=
re style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:mono=
space" dir=3D"auto">   Note that gathering phases only gather the candidate=
s needed by
   new/recycled/restarting &quot;m=3D&quot; sections; other &quot;m=3D&quot=
; sections continue
   to use their existing candidates.  Also, if an &quot;m=3D&quot; section =
is
   bundled (either by a successful bundle negotiation or by being marked
   as bundle-only), then candidates will be gathered and exchanged for
   that &quot;m=3D&quot; section if and only if its MID item is a BUNDLE-ta=
g, as
   described in [<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8843" =
title=3D"&quot;Negotiating Media Multiplexing Using the Session Description=
 Protocol (SDP)&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace">RFC8843</a>].</pre><=
/div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 7:17 PM Roman Shpount &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rom=
an@telurix.com">roman@telurix.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">I have a question regarding <span style=3D"font-size:13.33=
33px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">max-compat in subsequent offers with iceRestart:</sp=
an><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px=
"><br></span></font></div><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px">Should new candidates be gathered for all m=3D lin=
es or only for the m=3Dlines which are not bundled after the previous offer=
/answer exchange?</span></font></div><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
<span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></span></font></div><div><font styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px">I would suggest =
that new candidates should be gathered for all m=3Dlines to be compatible w=
ith 3PCC.</span></font></div><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></span></font></div><div><font style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px">Thank You,<br></span></f=
ont><div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">_____________<=
br>Roman Shpount</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On S=
at, Jul 10, 2021 at 9:11 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uber=
ti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"></blockquote></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">As discussed at IETF 110=
. Diff from RFC8829:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3D=
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/=
archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&a=
mp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00=
.txt</a><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-d=
rafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM<br>Subj=
ect: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt<br>=
To: Cullen Jennings &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@iii.ca" target=3D"_blank">=
fluffy@iii.ca</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
ustin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt;<br></div><b=
r><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bi=
s<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JavaScript Session Establishment P=
rotocol (JSEP)<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2021-07-10<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 106<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829b=
is-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/</a><b=
r>
Html:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829=
bis-00.html</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScri=
pt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia ses=
sion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API a=
nd<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204)">
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000b8bf9e05c6d0aba6--


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From: Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 23:35:37 -0400
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(To be clear, m= sections that are bundled will continue to be bundled and
will not participate in the restart.)

On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:33 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name> wrote:

> Section 3.5.1 makes clear that only sections that are restarting are
> affected:
>
>    Note that gathering phases only gather the candidates needed by
>    new/recycled/restarting "m=" sections; other "m=" sections continue
>    to use their existing candidates.  Also, if an "m=" section is
>    bundled (either by a successful bundle negotiation or by being marked
>    as bundle-only), then candidates will be gathered and exchanged for
>    that "m=" section if and only if its MID item is a BUNDLE-tag, as
>    described in [RFC8843 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8843>].
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 7:17 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a question regarding max-compat in subsequent offers with
>> iceRestart:
>>
>> Should new candidates be gathered for all m= lines or only for the
>> m=lines which are not bundled after the previous offer/answer exchange?
>>
>> I would suggest that new candidates should be gathered for all m=lines to
>> be compatible with 3PCC.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> _____________
>> Roman Shpount
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 9:11 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name> wrote:
>>
>>> As discussed at IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&url2=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>>> To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
>>> Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:           draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
>>> Revision:       00
>>> Title:          JavaScript Session Establishment Protocol (JSEP)
>>> Document date:  2021-07-10
>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>> Pages:          106
>>> URL:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
>>> Status:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/
>>> Html:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html
>>> Htmlized:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis
>>>
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScript
>>>    application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia session
>>>    via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API and
>>>    discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.
>>>
>>>    This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>>

--00000000000056e9be05c6d0b3fd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">(To be clear, m=3D sections that are bundled will continu=
e to be bundled and will not participate in the restart.)</div><div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 1=
0, 2021 at 8:33 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name">=
justin@uberti.name</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"auto">Section 3.5.1 makes clear that only sections that are rest=
arting are affected:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pr=
e style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:monos=
pace" dir=3D"auto">   Note that gathering phases only gather the candidates=
 needed by
   new/recycled/restarting &quot;m=3D&quot; sections; other &quot;m=3D&quot=
; sections continue
   to use their existing candidates.  Also, if an &quot;m=3D&quot; section =
is
   bundled (either by a successful bundle negotiation or by being marked
   as bundle-only), then candidates will be gathered and exchanged for
   that &quot;m=3D&quot; section if and only if its MID item is a BUNDLE-ta=
g, as
   described in [<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8843" =
title=3D"&quot;Negotiating Media Multiplexing Using the Session Description=
 Protocol (SDP)&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace" target=3D"_blank">RF=
C8843</a>].</pre></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 7:17 PM Roman Shpount &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:roman@telurix.com" target=3D"_blank">roman@telurix.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;=
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">I have a question rega=
rding <span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">max-compat in su=
bsequent offers with iceRestart:</span><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></span></font></div><div><font st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px">Should new can=
didates be gathered for all m=3D lines or only for the m=3Dlines which are =
not bundled after the previous offer/answer exchange?</span></font></div><d=
iv><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br=
></span></font></div><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.3333px">I would suggest that new candidates should be gathered =
for all m=3Dlines to be compatible with 3PCC.</span></font></div><div><font=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></span>=
</font></div><div><font style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size=
:13.3333px">Thank You,<br></span></font><div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartmai=
l=3D"gmail_signature">_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div></div><br></div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 9:11 PM Justin Uber=
ti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@ubert=
i.name</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204)"></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">As discussed at IETF 110. Diff from RFC8829:=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.t=
xt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bi=
s-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://w=
ww.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8829.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/i=
d/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt</a><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ----=
-----<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: S=
at, Jul 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM<br>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-=
uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt<br>To: Cullen Jennings &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:fluffy@iii.ca" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@iii.ca</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Ju=
stin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">jus=
tin@uberti.name</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bi=
s<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JavaScript Session Establishment P=
rotocol (JSEP)<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2021-07-10<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 106<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829b=
is-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis/</a><b=
r>
Html:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829=
bis-00.html</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanisms for allowing a JavaScri=
pt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0application to control the signaling plane of a multimedia ses=
sion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via the interface specified in the W3C RTCPeerConnection API a=
nd<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses how this relates to existing signaling protocols.<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This specification obsoletes RFC 8829.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204)">
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000056e9be05c6d0b3fd--


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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 23:45:26 -0400
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--0000000000007f5e4105c6d0d6e1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name> wrote:

> (To be clear, m= sections that are bundled will continue to be bundled and
> will not participate in the restart.)
>

This is what I thought.

How would one unbundle them if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC
(like an offer in response to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart
option for ICE to do this. Is there a need for something similar for the
bundle to do the same thing? Please see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
section 7.6 (
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6)
for more details.

Please note that in the case of 3PCC an offer within an existing session
for one call leg would be the initial offer for another call leg. After the
latest change, an offer within the existing session is no longer a valid
initial offer.

Thank You,
_____________
Roman Shpount

--0000000000007f5e4105c6d0d6e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin U=
berti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">(To be clear, m=3D sections that are bu=
ndled will continue to be bundled and will not participate in the restart.)=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div>This is what I thought.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">How would one unbundl=
e them if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC (like an offer in respons=
e=C2=A0to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart option for ICE to do th=
is. Is there a need for something similar for the bundle to do the same thi=
ng? Please see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 section 7.6 (<a href=3D"http=
s://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.=
6">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#sec=
tion-7.6</a>) for more details.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">Please note that in the case of 3PCC an offer wit=
hin=C2=A0an existing session for one call leg would be the initial offer fo=
r another call leg. After the latest change, an offer within the existing s=
ession is no longer a valid initial offer.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Thank You,<br clear=3D"all"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">_____________<br>Roman Shpount<=
/div></div></div></div>

--0000000000007f5e4105c6d0d6e1--


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>, RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@alphaexplorationco.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 10:43:21 -0700
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To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
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Roman,

I see what you are getting at. I suppose that was one benefit of the other
BUNDLE syntax, i.e., that all offers (not just the first) are always
understandable by a non-BUNDLE endpoint.

That said, given the adoption of BUNDLE I tend to think that 3PCC to a
non-BUNDLE endpoint is increasingly a corner case, so it may not be worth
going to the trouble of trying to fix the SDP syntax and allowing for
mid-call unbundling.

Note also that it is not clear to me how rtcp-mux would work in a similar
situation, i.e., when doing 3PCC to a non-rtcp-mux endpoint.

Justin

On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:45 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name> wrote:
>
>> (To be clear, m= sections that are bundled will continue to be bundled
>> and will not participate in the restart.)
>>
>
> This is what I thought.
>
> How would one unbundle them if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC
> (like an offer in response to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart
> option for ICE to do this. Is there a need for something similar for the
> bundle to do the same thing? Please see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
> section 7.6 (
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6)
> for more details.
>
> Please note that in the case of 3PCC an offer within an existing session
> for one call leg would be the initial offer for another call leg. After the
> latest change, an offer within the existing session is no longer a valid
> initial offer.
>
> Thank You,
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Roman,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I see what you are getting=
 at. I suppose that was one benefit of the other BUNDLE syntax, i.e., that =
all offers (not just the first) are always understandable by a non-BUNDLE e=
ndpoint.</div><div><br></div><div>That said, given the adoption of BUNDLE I=
 tend to think that 3PCC to a non-BUNDLE endpoint is increasingly a corner =
case, so it may not be worth going to the trouble of trying to fix the SDP =
syntax and allowing for mid-call unbundling.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>Note also that it is not clear to me how rtcp-mux would work in a similar =
situation, i.e., when doing 3PCC to a non-rtcp-mux endpoint.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Justin</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:45 PM Roman Shpount &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:roman@telurix.com">roman@telurix.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:justin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">(To be clear, m=3D sections that are bundled=
 will continue to be bundled and will not participate in the restart.)</div=
></blockquote><div><br></div>This is what I thought.</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">How would one unbundle them =
if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC (like an offer in response=C2=A0=
to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart option for ICE to do this. Is =
there a need for something similar for the bundle to do the same thing? Ple=
ase see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 section 7.6 (<a href=3D"https://www=
.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-=
04.html#section-7.6</a>) for more details.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Please note that in the case of 3PCC a=
n offer within=C2=A0an existing session for one call leg would be the initi=
al offer for another call leg. After the latest change, an offer within the=
 existing session is no longer a valid initial offer.=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Thank You,<br clear=
=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div></div></=
div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 13:54:56 -0400
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To: Justin Uberti <juberti@alphaexplorationco.com>
Cc: Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>, RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Justin,

Part of the new BUNDLE syntax problem is that the offer generated during
the session is not a valid initial offer, even for the endpoints that do
support BUNDLE. There are m= lines with no candidates and no bundle-only
tags. Even if we are not going to support unbundling in 3PCC scenarios, we
should generate valid initial offers for BUNDLE-enabled endpoints.

At the very least, my suggestion would be, when a new offer is generated
after ICE restart is initiated (either due to the iceRestart option or ICE
configuration changes), to set a bundle-only tag on the bundled m= lines.

Best Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount


On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:43 PM Justin Uberti <
juberti@alphaexplorationco.com> wrote:

> Roman,
>
> I see what you are getting at. I suppose that was one benefit of the other
> BUNDLE syntax, i.e., that all offers (not just the first) are always
> understandable by a non-BUNDLE endpoint.
>
> That said, given the adoption of BUNDLE I tend to think that 3PCC to a
> non-BUNDLE endpoint is increasingly a corner case, so it may not be worth
> going to the trouble of trying to fix the SDP syntax and allowing for
> mid-call unbundling.
>
> Note also that it is not clear to me how rtcp-mux would work in a similar
> situation, i.e., when doing 3PCC to a non-rtcp-mux endpoint.
>
> Justin
>
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:45 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> (To be clear, m= sections that are bundled will continue to be bundled
>>> and will not participate in the restart.)
>>>
>>
>> This is what I thought.
>>
>> How would one unbundle them if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC
>> (like an offer in response to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart
>> option for ICE to do this. Is there a need for something similar for the
>> bundle to do the same thing? Please see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
>> section 7.6 (
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6)
>> for more details.
>>
>> Please note that in the case of 3PCC an offer within an existing session
>> for one call leg would be the initial offer for another call leg. After the
>> latest change, an offer within the existing session is no longer a valid
>> initial offer.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> _____________
>> Roman Shpount
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>

--0000000000004425db05c704f03a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin,<div><br></div><div>Part of the new BUNDLE syntax p=
roblem is that the offer generated during the session is not a valid initia=
l offer, even for the endpoints that do support BUNDLE. There are m=3D line=
s with no candidates and no bundle-only tags. Even if we are not going to s=
upport unbundling in 3PCC scenarios, we should generate valid initial offer=
s for BUNDLE-enabled endpoints.</div><div><br></div><div>At the very least,=
 my suggestion would be, when a new offer is generated after ICE restart is=
 initiated (either due to the iceRestart option or ICE configuration change=
s), to set a bundle-only tag on the bundled m=3D lines.</div><div><br></div=
><div>Best Regards,<br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">_____________<br>Roman Shpount=
</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:43 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:juberti@alphaexplorationco.com">juberti@alphaexplorationco.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">Roman,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I see what you are getti=
ng at. I suppose that was one benefit of the other BUNDLE syntax, i.e., tha=
t all offers (not just the first) are always understandable by a non-BUNDLE=
 endpoint.</div><div><br></div><div>That said, given the adoption of BUNDLE=
 I tend to think that 3PCC to a non-BUNDLE endpoint is increasingly a corne=
r case, so it may not be worth going to the trouble of trying to fix the SD=
P syntax and allowing for mid-call unbundling.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Note also that it is not clear to me how rtcp-mux would work in a simila=
r situation, i.e., when doing 3PCC to a non-rtcp-mux endpoint.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Justin</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:45 PM Roman Shpount &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:roman@telurix.com" target=3D"_blank">roman@telurix.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uber=
ti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@ubert=
i.name</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">(To be clear, m=3D secti=
ons that are bundled will continue to be bundled and will not participate i=
n the restart.)</div></blockquote><div><br></div>This is what I thought.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">How woul=
d one unbundle them if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC (like an off=
er in response=C2=A0to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart option for=
 ICE to do this. Is there a need for something similar for the bundle to do=
 the same thing? Please see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 section 7.6 (<a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.ht=
ml#section-7.6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iet=
f-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6</a>) for more details.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Please note that i=
n the case of 3PCC an offer within=C2=A0an existing session for one call le=
g would be the initial offer for another call leg. After the latest change,=
 an offer within the existing session is no longer a valid initial offer.=
=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>Thank You,<br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">_____________<br>Roman S=
hpount</div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004425db05c704f03a--


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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@alphaexplorationco.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:21:14 -0700
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To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Cc: Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>, RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-uberti-rtcweb-rfc8829bis-00.txt
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The problem though is that if you are setting bundle-only you also need to
zero the port, which opens up the whole can of worms with deployed
applications that we were hoping to avoid. Limiting it to IceRestart would
reduce the risk but not eliminate it.

It would be good to hear of at least one example of this causing an actual
problem before spending substantial energy here, I think. Note also that
this would be a change to BUNDLE, not to JSEP.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 10:55 AM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

> Justin,
>
> Part of the new BUNDLE syntax problem is that the offer generated during
> the session is not a valid initial offer, even for the endpoints that do
> support BUNDLE. There are m= lines with no candidates and no bundle-only
> tags. Even if we are not going to support unbundling in 3PCC scenarios, we
> should generate valid initial offers for BUNDLE-enabled endpoints.
>
> At the very least, my suggestion would be, when a new offer is generated
> after ICE restart is initiated (either due to the iceRestart option or ICE
> configuration changes), to set a bundle-only tag on the bundled m= lines.
>
> Best Regards,
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:43 PM Justin Uberti <
> juberti@alphaexplorationco.com> wrote:
>
>> Roman,
>>
>> I see what you are getting at. I suppose that was one benefit of the
>> other BUNDLE syntax, i.e., that all offers (not just the first) are always
>> understandable by a non-BUNDLE endpoint.
>>
>> That said, given the adoption of BUNDLE I tend to think that 3PCC to a
>> non-BUNDLE endpoint is increasingly a corner case, so it may not be worth
>> going to the trouble of trying to fix the SDP syntax and allowing for
>> mid-call unbundling.
>>
>> Note also that it is not clear to me how rtcp-mux would work in a similar
>> situation, i.e., when doing 3PCC to a non-rtcp-mux endpoint.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:45 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.name>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (To be clear, m= sections that are bundled will continue to be bundled
>>>> and will not participate in the restart.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is what I thought.
>>>
>>> How would one unbundle them if an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC
>>> (like an offer in response to an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart
>>> option for ICE to do this. Is there a need for something similar for the
>>> bundle to do the same thing? Please see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
>>> section 7.6 (
>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6)
>>> for more details.
>>>
>>> Please note that in the case of 3PCC an offer within an existing session
>>> for one call leg would be the initial offer for another call leg. After the
>>> latest change, an offer within the existing session is no longer a valid
>>> initial offer.
>>>
>>> Thank You,
>>> _____________
>>> Roman Shpount
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The problem though is that if you are setting bundle-=
only you also need to zero the port, which opens up the whole can of worms =
with deployed applications that we were hoping to avoid. Limiting it to Ice=
Restart would reduce the risk but not eliminate it.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>It would be good to hear of at least one example of this causing an actua=
l problem before spending substantial energy here, I think. Note also that =
this would be a change to BUNDLE, not to JSEP.</div><div></div></div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul =
13, 2021 at 10:55 AM Roman Shpount &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:roman@telurix.com"=
>roman@telurix.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Justin,<div><br></div><div>Part of the n=
ew BUNDLE syntax problem is that the offer generated during the session is =
not a valid initial offer, even for the endpoints that do support BUNDLE. T=
here are m=3D lines with no candidates and no bundle-only tags. Even if we =
are not going to support unbundling in 3PCC scenarios, we should generate v=
alid initial offers for BUNDLE-enabled endpoints.</div><div><br></div><div>=
At the very least, my suggestion would be, when a new offer is generated af=
ter ICE restart is initiated (either due to the iceRestart option or ICE co=
nfiguration changes), to set a bundle-only tag on the bundled m=3D lines.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards,<br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
">_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 13, 2021=
 at 1:43 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:juberti@alphaexplorationco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">juberti@alphaexplorationco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Roman=
,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I see what you are getting at. I suppose that wa=
s one benefit of the other BUNDLE syntax, i.e., that all offers (not just t=
he first) are always understandable by a non-BUNDLE endpoint.</div><div><br=
></div><div>That said, given the adoption of BUNDLE I tend to think that 3P=
CC to a non-BUNDLE endpoint is increasingly a corner case, so it may not be=
 worth going to the trouble of trying to fix the SDP syntax and allowing fo=
r mid-call unbundling.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Note also that it is =
not clear to me how rtcp-mux would work in a similar situation, i.e., when =
doing 3PCC to a non-rtcp-mux endpoint.</div><div><br></div><div>Justin</div=
></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 8:45 PM Roman Shpount &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:roman@=
telurix.com" target=3D"_blank">roman@telurix.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 11:35 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:justin@uberti.name" target=3D"_blank">justin@uberti.name</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">(To be clear, m=3D sections that are bundled w=
ill continue to be bundled and will not participate in the restart.)</div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div>This is what I thought.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">How would one unbundle them if=
 an offer needs to be generated for 3PCC (like an offer in response=C2=A0to=
 an empty INVITE)? There is the iceRestart option for ICE to do this. Is th=
ere a need for something similar for the bundle to do the same thing? Pleas=
e see draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 section 7.6 (<a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04=
.html#section-7.6</a>) for more details.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Please note that in the case of 3PCC an =
offer within=C2=A0an existing session for one call leg would be the initial=
 offer for another call leg. After the latest change, an offer within the e=
xisting session is no longer a valid initial offer.=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Thank You,<br clear=
=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div></div></=
div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:56:27 -0400
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On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 2:21 PM Justin Uberti <
juberti@alphaexplorationco.com> wrote:

> The problem though is that if you are setting bundle-only you also need to
> zero the port, which opens up the whole can of worms with deployed
> applications that we were hoping to avoid. Limiting it to IceRestart would
> reduce the risk but not eliminate it.
>

Anything BUNDLE compliant should be able to handle m= lines with port 0 and
a=bundle-only, but it can be an issue for some existing implementations.


> It would be good to hear of at least one example of this causing an actual
> problem before spending substantial energy here, I think. Note also that
> this would be a change to BUNDLE, not to JSEP.
>

BUNDLE was already modified to handle this: draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
section 7.6 (
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6
)

I guess, if someone really needs this, they can munge the SDP.
_____________
Roman Shpount

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 2:21 PM Justin Ub=
erti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:juberti@alphaexplorationco.com">juberti@alphaexp=
lorationco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The problem =
though is that if you are setting bundle-only you also need to zero the por=
t, which opens up the whole can of worms with deployed applications that we=
 were hoping to avoid. Limiting it to IceRestart would reduce the risk but =
not eliminate it.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Anything BUND=
LE compliant should be able to handle m=3D lines with port 0 and a=3Dbundle=
-only, but it can be an issue for some existing implementations.=C2=A0</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div>It would be good to hear of at least one example of this cau=
sing an actual problem before spending substantial energy here, I think. No=
te also that this would be a change to BUNDLE, not to JSEP.<br></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div>BUNDLE was already modified to handle this: dra=
ft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 section 7.6 (<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/a=
rchive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6">https://www.iet=
f.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6</a>)</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I guess, i=
f someone really needs this, they can munge the SDP.<br class=3D"gmail-Appl=
e-interchange-newline">_____________<br>Roman Shpount<br class=3D"gmail-App=
le-interchange-newline"><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:36:37 +0100
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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Cc: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>, Flemming Andreasen via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>,  "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" <mmusic-chairs@ietf.org>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04
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Hi RTCWEB folks,

If you have not already reviewed draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 (aka
BUNDLEbis), it would be great if you could do so before the RTCWEB meeting
next week, since the JSEP update is linked to it.

thanks,

Ted Hardie

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:46 PM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=
40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> >> I've reviewed the diff between this and RFC8843.  Looks good.  Thanks
> for a good shepherd writeup too.  Just a couple of comments:
> >> The registrations in Section 16 should make it clear they are updating,
> not creating, the entries they describe.  RFC 8843 created them.
> > Ok. I believe the authors can make that change later.
>
> I am not really sure what the change would look like.
>
> For example, if I do the following change in Section 16.1:
>
> s/This document adds the MID SDES item to the IANA "RTP SDES Item Types"
> registry as follows: /This document updates the MID SDES item registered in
> RFC 8843 in the IANA "RTP SDES Item Types" registry as follows
>
> ...it seems like all the information is updated.
>
> >> It would probably make things even smoother to indicate in the shepherd
> writeup that RTCWEB reviewed this, so that their JSEP update doesn't
> conflict with it.  (And if they didn't, please at a minimum forward
> >> them the IETF Last Call announcement when it comes out.)  I know the
> writeup already describes the separation of work, but we're likely to be
> asked to confirm that there was more coordination than that.
> > Good point. We did not have RTCWEB review the update per se, however a
> couple of the people that reviewed it are intimately involved in the RTCWEB
> work. Should we alert the RTCWEB group at this point or wait until the IETF
> Last Call ?
>
> As Flemming said, people that have reviewed BUNDLEbis are also active in
> RTCWEB. In addition, when Flemming sent out the publication request e-mail,
> I did forward it to the RTCWEB list.
>
> As RTCWEB is meeting this week, I guess it can also be mentioned there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
>

--000000000000e146c705c78acbc0
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi RTCWEB folks,</div><div><br></div><div>If you have=
 not already reviewed draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 (aka BUNDLEbis), it w=
ould be great if you could do so before the RTCWEB meeting next week, since=
 the JSEP update is linked to it.</div><div><br></div><div>thanks,</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Ted Hardie<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:46 PM Christ=
er Holmberg &lt;christer.holmberg=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.=
ietf.org">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed the diff between this and RFC8843.=C2=A0 Looks g=
ood.=C2=A0 Thanks for a good shepherd writeup too.=C2=A0 Just a couple of c=
omments:<br>
&gt;&gt; The registrations in Section 16 should make it clear they are upda=
ting, not creating, the entries they describe.=C2=A0 RFC 8843 created them.=
<br>
&gt; Ok. I believe the authors can make that change later. <br>
<br>
I am not really sure what the change would look like.<br>
<br>
For example, if I do the following change in Section 16.1:<br>
<br>
s/This document adds the MID SDES item to the IANA &quot;RTP SDES Item Type=
s&quot; registry as follows: /This document updates the MID SDES item regis=
tered in RFC 8843 in the IANA &quot;RTP SDES Item Types&quot; registry as f=
ollows<br>
<br>
...it seems like all the information is updated.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; It would probably make things even smoother to indicate in the she=
pherd writeup that RTCWEB reviewed this, so that their JSEP update doesn&#3=
9;t conflict with it.=C2=A0 (And if they didn&#39;t, please at a minimum fo=
rward<br>
&gt;&gt; them the IETF Last Call announcement when it comes out.)=C2=A0 I k=
now the writeup already describes the separation of work, but we&#39;re lik=
ely to be asked to confirm that there was more coordination than that.<br>
&gt; Good point. We did not have RTCWEB review the update per se, however a=
 couple of the people that reviewed it are intimately involved in the RTCWE=
B work. Should we alert the RTCWEB group at this point or wait until the IE=
TF Last Call ? <br>
<br>
As Flemming said, people that have reviewed BUNDLEbis are also active in RT=
CWEB. In addition, when Flemming sent out the publication request e-mail, I=
 did forward it to the RTCWEB list.<br>
<br>
As RTCWEB is meeting this week, I guess it can also be mentioned there.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Christer<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mmusic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mmusic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mmusic@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:13:58 -0400
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I have already provided my review on MMUSIC.
_____________
Roman Shpount


On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 5:37 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi RTCWEB folks,
>
> If you have not already reviewed draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 (aka
> BUNDLEbis), it would be great if you could do so before the RTCWEB meeting
> next week, since the JSEP update is linked to it.
>
> thanks,
>
> Ted Hardie
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:46 PM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=
> 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> >> I've reviewed the diff between this and RFC8843.  Looks good.  Thanks
>> for a good shepherd writeup too.  Just a couple of comments:
>> >> The registrations in Section 16 should make it clear they are
>> updating, not creating, the entries they describe.  RFC 8843 created them.
>> > Ok. I believe the authors can make that change later.
>>
>> I am not really sure what the change would look like.
>>
>> For example, if I do the following change in Section 16.1:
>>
>> s/This document adds the MID SDES item to the IANA "RTP SDES Item Types"
>> registry as follows: /This document updates the MID SDES item registered in
>> RFC 8843 in the IANA "RTP SDES Item Types" registry as follows
>>
>> ...it seems like all the information is updated.
>>
>> >> It would probably make things even smoother to indicate in the
>> shepherd writeup that RTCWEB reviewed this, so that their JSEP update
>> doesn't conflict with it.  (And if they didn't, please at a minimum forward
>> >> them the IETF Last Call announcement when it comes out.)  I know the
>> writeup already describes the separation of work, but we're likely to be
>> asked to confirm that there was more coordination than that.
>> > Good point. We did not have RTCWEB review the update per se, however a
>> couple of the people that reviewed it are intimately involved in the RTCWEB
>> work. Should we alert the RTCWEB group at this point or wait until the IETF
>> Last Call ?
>>
>> As Flemming said, people that have reviewed BUNDLEbis are also active in
>> RTCWEB. In addition, when Flemming sent out the publication request e-mail,
>> I did forward it to the RTCWEB list.
>>
>> As RTCWEB is meeting this week, I guess it can also be mentioned there.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mmusic mailing list
>> mmusic@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
>>
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I have already provided my review on MMUSIC.<br clear=3D"a=
ll"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail=
_signature">_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div></div><br></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 20, 2=
021 at 5:37 AM Ted Hardie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com">ted.iet=
f@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi RTCWEB folks,</div><div><br></div><div>=
If you have not already reviewed draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 (aka BUNDL=
Ebis), it would be great if you could do so before the RTCWEB meeting next =
week, since the JSEP update is linked to it.</div><div><br></div><div>thank=
s,</div><div><br></div><div>Ted Hardie<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:4=
6 PM Christer Holmberg &lt;christer.holmberg=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40ericsson=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed the diff between this and RFC8843.=C2=A0 Looks g=
ood.=C2=A0 Thanks for a good shepherd writeup too.=C2=A0 Just a couple of c=
omments:<br>
&gt;&gt; The registrations in Section 16 should make it clear they are upda=
ting, not creating, the entries they describe.=C2=A0 RFC 8843 created them.=
<br>
&gt; Ok. I believe the authors can make that change later. <br>
<br>
I am not really sure what the change would look like.<br>
<br>
For example, if I do the following change in Section 16.1:<br>
<br>
s/This document adds the MID SDES item to the IANA &quot;RTP SDES Item Type=
s&quot; registry as follows: /This document updates the MID SDES item regis=
tered in RFC 8843 in the IANA &quot;RTP SDES Item Types&quot; registry as f=
ollows<br>
<br>
...it seems like all the information is updated.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; It would probably make things even smoother to indicate in the she=
pherd writeup that RTCWEB reviewed this, so that their JSEP update doesn&#3=
9;t conflict with it.=C2=A0 (And if they didn&#39;t, please at a minimum fo=
rward<br>
&gt;&gt; them the IETF Last Call announcement when it comes out.)=C2=A0 I k=
now the writeup already describes the separation of work, but we&#39;re lik=
ely to be asked to confirm that there was more coordination than that.<br>
&gt; Good point. We did not have RTCWEB review the update per se, however a=
 couple of the people that reviewed it are intimately involved in the RTCWE=
B work. Should we alert the RTCWEB group at this point or wait until the IE=
TF Last Call ? <br>
<br>
As Flemming said, people that have reviewed BUNDLEbis are also active in RT=
CWEB. In addition, when Flemming sent out the publication request e-mail, I=
 did forward it to the RTCWEB list.<br>
<br>
As RTCWEB is meeting this week, I guess it can also be mentioned there.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Christer<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mmusic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mmusic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mmusic@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
mmusic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mmusic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mmusic@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000008ac1a405c79b3d9e--


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From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
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Subject: [rtcweb] ANRP talk of potential interest
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Hi AVTCORE, RTCWEB,

The Applied Networking Research Prize talks take place during the IRTF =
Open Meeting on Monday at IETF 111. One of the presentations may be of =
interest: Sadjad Fouladi will talk about =E2=80=9CSalsify: low-latency =
network video through tighter integration between a video codec and a =
transport protocol=E2=80=9D.

More information at https://irtf.org/anrp/=20

Colin=


From nobody Mon Jul 26 13:34:24 2021
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Title: LS on the new work item Q.DC-SA “Signalling architecture of data channel enhanced IMS network”
Submission Date: 2021-07-20
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1751/

From: Denis ANDREEV <akouch@mail.ru>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>,Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>,Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: Sean Turner <sean+ietf@sn3rd.com>,itu-t-liaison@iab.org <itu-t-liaison@iab.org>,Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>,Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Discussion List <rtcweb@ietf.org>,Murray Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com>,Scott Mansfield <Scott.Mansfield@Ericsson.com>,Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>
Response Contacts: Tatiana Kurakova <tatiana.kurakova@itu.int>
Technical Contacts: 
Purpose: For information

Body: During the ITU-T Study Group 11 interim Rapporteur Group meeting (e-meeting, 7 -16 July 2021), Q1/11 (Signalling and protocol architectures for telecommunication networks and guidelines for implementations) has created a new work item Q.DC-SA “Signalling architecture of data channel enhanced IMS network” (SG11-TD102/WP1).

ITU-T Q.DC-SA provides the signalling architecture of data channel enhanced IMS network. It presents the overview of data channel technology and discusses the research on data channel based IMS network. It also analyzes the necessities of research on signalling architecture of data channel based IMS network and specifies the framework and interfaces of data channel enhanced IMS network. This draft Recommendation will build on 3GPP TS 26.114, IETF RFC8831 and ITU-T Y.3104 and will be aligned with them. ITU-T Q1/11 would like to thank you for your attention, feedback and cooperation on this topic.

The description of the new work item Q.DC-SA is available in the Q1/11 report as highlighted in A.1 justification form (see Annex B of the report).

Attachments: 2
-	SG11-TD83/WP1: Draft Report of interim Q1/11 RGM e-meeting Q1/11 "Signalling and protocol architectures for telecommunication networks and guidelines for implementations" (e-meeting, 7-16 July 2021)
-	SG11-TD102/WP1: Output - baseline text for a new work item Q.DC-SA "Signalling architecture of data channel enhanced IMS network" (e-meeting, 7-16 July 2021)
Attachments:

    SG11-LS200-Att2
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2021-07-20-itu-t-sg-11-rtcweb-ls-on-the-new-work-item-qdc-sa-signalling-architecture-of-data-channel-enhanced-ims-network-attachment-1.pdf

    SG11-LS200-Att1
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2021-07-20-itu-t-sg-11-rtcweb-ls-on-the-new-work-item-qdc-sa-signalling-architecture-of-data-channel-enhanced-ims-network-attachment-2.pdf

    SG11-LS200
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2021-07-20-itu-t-sg-11-rtcweb-ls-on-the-new-work-item-qdc-sa-signalling-architecture-of-data-channel-enhanced-ims-network-attachment-3.docx



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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@alphaexplorationco.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 13:10:34 -0700
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I thought about this a bit more and came to the same conclusion. Noted
accordingly in the slides for today's session.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:56 AM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 2:21 PM Justin Uberti <
> juberti@alphaexplorationco.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem though is that if you are setting bundle-only you also need
>> to zero the port, which opens up the whole can of worms with deployed
>> applications that we were hoping to avoid. Limiting it to IceRestart would
>> reduce the risk but not eliminate it.
>>
>
> Anything BUNDLE compliant should be able to handle m= lines with port 0
> and a=bundle-only, but it can be an issue for some existing
> implementations.
>
>
>> It would be good to hear of at least one example of this causing an
>> actual problem before spending substantial energy here, I think. Note also
>> that this would be a change to BUNDLE, not to JSEP.
>>
>
> BUNDLE was already modified to handle this:
> draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 section 7.6 (
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6
> )
>
> I guess, if someone really needs this, they can munge the SDP.
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
>
>

--000000000000b9f06305c848b258
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I thought about this a bit more and came to the same=C2=A0=
conclusion. Noted accordingly in the slides for today&#39;s session.</div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue,=
 Jul 13, 2021 at 11:56 AM Roman Shpount &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:roman@telurix=
.com">roman@telurix.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Jul 13, 20=
21 at 2:21 PM Justin Uberti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:juberti@alphaexplorationc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">juberti@alphaexplorationco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The problem though is that if you are setting =
bundle-only you also need to zero the port, which opens up the whole can of=
 worms with deployed applications that we were hoping to avoid. Limiting it=
 to IceRestart would reduce the risk but not eliminate it.</div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>Anything BUNDLE compliant should be able to han=
dle m=3D lines with port 0 and a=3Dbundle-only, but it can be an issue for =
some existing implementations.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>It would be good to=
 hear of at least one example of this causing an actual problem before spen=
ding substantial energy here, I think. Note also that this would be a chang=
e to BUNDLE, not to JSEP.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>BUNDLE=
 was already modified to handle this: draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04 secti=
on 7.6 (<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc884=
3bis-04.html#section-7.6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id=
/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc8843bis-04.html#section-7.6</a>)</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I guess, if someone really=
 needs this, they can munge the SDP.<br>_____________<br>Roman Shpount<br><=
div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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