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From: Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com>
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Cc: rtg-dir <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, pals <pals@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree@tools.ietf.org
Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree-07.txt
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Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes
on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to
the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last
Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree-07.txt
Reviewer: Lizhong Jin
Review Date: 2nd June
IETF LC End Date:
Intended Status: Standards Track

*Summary:*
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
resolved before publication.

*Comments:*

Overall, although there is no major technical issues for this draft, it is
strongly suggested to improve the English description to make it neat, and
easier to be understood.

*Major Issues:*

No major issues found

*Minor Issues:*

1.       Abstract: =E2=80=9Cservices=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cservice=E2=
=80=9D

2.       Abstract: =E2=80=9Cthe MAC address based Ethernet forwarding engin=
e and
the PW work in the same way as before=E2=80=9D, you should tell the detail =
of
=E2=80=9Cbefore=E2=80=9D here, or add a reference here.

3.       Abstract: =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Care=E2=80=9D

4.       Section3 overall, suggest to reorganize section 3. Split the
section into two parts: 1. Introduction; 2. Motivation

5.       Section3: =E2=80=9Cin fact, there is no exact corresponding termin=
ology in
IETF yet.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cterminology=E2=80=9D could not be a reason. You=
 should list the
technology reason if you want to compare.

6.       Section3: =E2=80=9CThough there were proposals on using PW control=
 word or
PWs to indicate the root/leaf attribute of an E-Tree frame, both methods
are limited in that they are only applicable to "VPLS only" networks.=E2=80=
=9D You
should have reference for other proposals. But I don=E2=80=99t think you ne=
ed to
list these proposals, instead only say the motivation of the VLAN based
solution.

7.       Section4.1: =E2=80=9CFig. 1 and Fig. 2 (both figures are extracted=
 from
[RFC6246])=E2=80=9D. You should switch the number of Fig1 and Fig2, since F=
ig1 is a
detail description of Fig2.

8.       Section4.1: =E2=80=9CTherefore, the association between an AC port=
 and a
PW on a VSI is difficult, sometimes even impossible.=E2=80=9D Could not und=
erstand
what=E2=80=99s the purpose of this sentence here?

9.       Section4.1: =E2=80=9CAssuming this mechanism is implemented in the=
 bridge
module, it is quite straightforward to infer a VPLS PE model with two VSIs
to support the E-Tree (as shown in Fig. 3).=E2=80=9D Could move the analysi=
s to
motivation section, or removed. And the logic here is not right. The
leaf/root VLAN indication is only for filtering, not bridging. So it is not
accurate to have Root/Leave S-VLAN here to get the enhanced model.

10.   Section4.2: =E2=80=9Cand optionally MAY be added with another root S-=
VLAN.=E2=80=9D
When and why add another root S-VLAN here? And why use terminology =E2=80=
=9Croot
S-VLAN=E2=80=9D, not root VLAN as indicated in Figure4?

11.   Section4.2: =E2=80=9CFor an S-VLAN tagged port, the S-VLAN tag in the
Ethernet frames received from the root ACs SHOULD be translated to the root
S-VLAN in the VPLS network domain=E2=80=9D. The description of S-VLAN tagge=
d port
is not accurate here. I think here, you want to refer to a port receiving a
packet with both S-VLAN & C-VLAN. So it is better to say, =E2=80=9Cwhen rec=
eiving a
packet with both S&C VLAN=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Same suggestion to previous pa=
ragraphs. If
S-VLAN only packet received, still translate S-VLAN to root S-VLAN?

12.   Section4.2: =E2=80=9Cthe E-Tree attribute may also be indicated with =
two
I-SID tags in the bridge module=E2=80=9D. Suggest to remove since it is not=
 part of
this document.

13.   Section5.2: =E2=80=9CFor both methods, VLAN mapping parameters from a=
 remote
PE can be provisioned or determined by a signaling protocol as described in
Section 6 when a PW is being established=E2=80=9D. For the global method, w=
hy we
need signaling?

14.   Section5.3.1: =E2=80=9Ci.e., the local leaf VLAN in a frame is transl=
ated to
the remote leaf VLAN; the local root VLAN in a frame is translated to the
remote root VLAN=E2=80=9D. Here you should refer back to section 4.

15.   Section5.3.2: =E2=80=9CUpon receiving frames on the PW, add a VLAN ta=
g with a
value of the local root VLAN to the frames.=E2=80=9D Not understand here. D=
oes that
mean all receiving frames will be considered to be from root? Then how to
isolate traffic between two leaves?

16.   Section5.3.3: =E2=80=9CIf a PE is in the Optimized Mode for a PW, upo=
n
transmit=E2=80=9D. Suggest to: If a PE is in the Optimized Mode for a PW, u=
pon
transmit to leaf only nodes.

17.   Section6.1: =E2=80=9CIf the bit V is set, and the PE is capable of VL=
AN
mapping, then the PE with the minimum IP address MUST set VLAN-Mapping-Mode
to TRUE;=E2=80=9D Which IP address? The address in the LDP IP header?

18.   Section6.1: =E2=80=9C2) If the P bit is set, then:=E2=80=9D If above =
is pseudo code,
then the code format should be more formal, to make it clear and neat.

19.   Section6.1: =E2=80=9CIf the PE is a leaf-only node itself, then a lab=
el
release message with a status code "Leaf to Leaf PW released" is sent to
the peer PE and exit the process;=E2=80=9D When both PE release the mapping=
. Then
when one PE1 change the setting to have both root&leaf, and send label
mapping to PE2, will PE2 be triggered to send label mapping to PE1?
According to RFC5036, I think the answer is no. You need additional
mechanism here.

20.   Section6.1: the E-Tree Sub-TLV parameters updating should be also
mentioned in this section.

21.   Section6.2: =E2=80=9CData plane in the VPLS is the same as described =
in
Section 4.2 of [RFC4761], and data plane processing for a PW is the same as
described at the end of Section 6.1.=E2=80=9D Why same as RFC4761 here? Don=
=E2=80=99t you
have VLAN-Mapping-Mode and other mode data plane operation?

22.   Section8: This section is too simple to remove it. Or please add more
detail.

23.   Section9: New security concern will include: since the outmost VLAN
is leaf or root, it is easy to parse the leaf and root VLAN information.

24.   Section10: The allocated value should be =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D.



Regards

Lizhong

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;color:black">Hello, </span></p>

<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif;color:black">I have been selected as the Routing Directora=
te reviewer for this
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-relat=
ed
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes o=
n
special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see=
 <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir"><span cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,221)">=E2=80=8B</span></span>http://tr=
ac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a>
</span></p>

<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif;color:black">Although these comments are primarily for the=
 use of the Routing
ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IE=
TF
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.</span></p>

<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif;color:black">Document: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree-07.t=
xt <br>
Reviewer: Lizhong Jin<br>
Review Date: 2<sup>nd</sup> June<br>
IETF LC End Date: <br>
Intended Status: Standards Track</span></p>

<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=AE=
=8B=E4=BD=93;color:black">Summary:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;color:black=
"> <br>
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resol=
ved
before publication. </span></p>

<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=AE=
=8B=E4=BD=93;color:black">Comments:</span></strong><strong><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"></span></strong></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;color:black">Overall, although there i=
s no major technical issues for this
draft, it is strongly suggested to improve the English description to make =
it
neat, and easier to be understood.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"></span></p>

<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=AE=
=8B=E4=BD=93;color:black">Major Issues:</span></strong><strong><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"></span></strong></p>

<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif;color:black">No major issues found</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"></span></p>

<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=AE=
=8B=E4=BD=93;color:black">Minor Issues:</span></strong><strong><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"></span></strong></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">1.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Abstract: =E2=80=9Cservices=E2=80=9D sho=
uld be
=E2=80=9Cservice=E2=80=9D</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">2.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Abstract: =E2=80=9Cthe MAC address
based Ethernet forwarding engine and the PW work in the same way as before=
=E2=80=9D,
you should tell the detail of =E2=80=9Cbefore=E2=80=9D here, or add a refer=
ence here.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">3.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Abstract: =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D should be=
 =E2=80=9Care=E2=80=9D</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">4.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section3 overall, suggest to
reorganize section 3. Split the section into two parts: 1. Introduction; 2.
Motivation</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">5.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section3: =E2=80=9Cin fact, there is no
exact corresponding terminology in IETF yet.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cterminology=
=E2=80=9D could not be a
reason. You should list the technology reason if you want to compare.</span=
></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">6.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section3: =E2=80=9CThough there were
proposals on using PW control word or PWs to indicate the root/leaf attribu=
te
of an E-Tree frame, both methods are limited in that they are only applicab=
le
to &quot;VPLS only&quot; networks.=E2=80=9D You should have reference for o=
ther proposals.
But I don=E2=80=99t think you need to list these proposals, instead only sa=
y the
motivation of the VLAN based solution.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">7.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section4.1: =E2=80=9CFig. 1 and Fig. 2
(both figures are extracted from [RFC6246])=E2=80=9D. You should switch the=
 number of
Fig1 and Fig2, since Fig1 is a detail description of Fig2.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">8.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section4.1: =E2=80=9CTherefore, the
association between an AC port and a PW on a VSI is difficult, sometimes ev=
en
impossible.=E2=80=9D Could not understand what=E2=80=99s the purpose of thi=
s sentence here?</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">9.<span style=
=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section4.1: =E2=80=9CAssuming this
mechanism is implemented in the bridge module, it is quite straightforward =
to
infer a VPLS PE model with two VSIs to support the E-Tree (as shown in Fig.
3).=E2=80=9D Could move the analysis to motivation section, or removed. And=
 the logic
here is not right. The leaf/root VLAN indication is only for filtering, not
bridging. So it is not accurate to have Root/Leave S-VLAN here to get the
enhanced model.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US=
">10.<span style=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section4.2: =E2=80=9Cand optionally MAY
be added with another root S-VLAN.=E2=80=9D When and why add another root S=
-VLAN here?
And why use terminology =E2=80=9Croot S-VLAN=E2=80=9D, not root VLAN as ind=
icated in Figure4?</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">11.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section4.2: =E2=80=9CFor an S-VLAN
tagged port, the S-VLAN tag in the Ethernet frames received from the root A=
Cs
SHOULD be translated to the root S-VLAN in the VPLS network domain=E2=80=9D=
. The
description of S-VLAN tagged port is not accurate here. I think here, you w=
ant
to refer to a port receiving a packet with both S-VLAN &amp; C-VLAN. So it =
is
better to say, =E2=80=9Cwhen receiving a packet with both S&amp;C VLAN=E2=
=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Same
suggestion to previous paragraphs. If S-VLAN only packet received, still
translate S-VLAN to root S-VLAN?</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">12.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section4.2: =E2=80=9Cthe E-Tree
attribute may also be indicated with two I-SID tags in the bridge module=E2=
=80=9D.
Suggest to remove since it is not part of this document.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">13.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section5.2: =E2=80=9CFor both methods,
VLAN mapping parameters from a remote PE can be provisioned or determined b=
y a
signaling protocol as described in Section 6 when a PW is being established=
=E2=80=9D.
For the global method, why we need signaling?</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">14.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section5.3.1: =E2=80=9Ci.e., the local
leaf VLAN in a frame is translated to the remote leaf VLAN; the local root =
VLAN
in a frame is translated to the remote root VLAN=E2=80=9D. Here you should =
refer back
to section 4.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">15.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section5.3.2: =E2=80=9CUpon receiving
frames on the PW, add a VLAN tag with a value of the local root VLAN to the
frames.=E2=80=9D Not understand here. Does that mean all receiving frames w=
ill be
considered to be from root? Then how to isolate traffic between two leaves?=
</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">16.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section5.3.3: =E2=80=9CIf a PE is in
the Optimized Mode for a PW, upon transmit=E2=80=9D. Suggest to: If a PE is=
 in the
Optimized Mode for a PW, upon transmit to leaf only nodes.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">17.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section6.1: =E2=80=9CIf the bit V is
set, and the PE is capable of VLAN mapping, then the PE with the minimum IP
address MUST set VLAN-Mapping-Mode to TRUE;=E2=80=9D Which IP address? The =
address in
the LDP IP header? </span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">18.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section6.1: =E2=80=9C2) If the P bit is
set, then:=E2=80=9D If above is pseudo code, then the code format should be=
 more
formal, to make it clear and neat.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">19.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section6.1: =E2=80=9CIf the PE is a
leaf-only node itself, then a label release message with a status code
&quot;Leaf to Leaf PW released&quot; is sent to the peer PE and exit the
process;=E2=80=9D When both PE release the mapping. Then when one PE1 chang=
e the
setting to have both root&amp;leaf, and send label mapping to PE2, will PE2=
 be
triggered to send label mapping to PE1? According to RFC5036, I think the a=
nswer
is no. You need additional mechanism here.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">20.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section6.1: the E-Tree Sub-TLV
parameters updating should be also mentioned in this section.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">21.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section6.2: =E2=80=9CData plane in the
VPLS is the same as described in Section 4.2 of [RFC4761], and data plane
processing for a PW is the same as described at the end of Section 6.1.=E2=
=80=9D Why
same as RFC4761 here? Don=E2=80=99t you have VLAN-Mapping-Mode and other mo=
de data
plane operation?</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">22.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section8: This section is too
simple to remove it. Or please add more detail.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">23.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section9: New security concern
will include: since the outmost VLAN is leaf or root, it is easy to parse t=
he
leaf and root VLAN information.</span></p>

<p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">24.<span styl=
e=3D"font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section10: The allocated value
should be =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Lizhong</span></p></div>

--089e0141a8401c0ef4051785ee25--


From nobody Wed Jun  3 02:21:24 2015
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:21:15 +0200
From: <thomas.morin@orange.com>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-as-migration-02
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Hello,

In the context of Routing Area QA reviews (see 
https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocQa ), I have 
been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The 
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related 
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and 
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide 
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing 
Directorate, please see ​ 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it 
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF 
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through 
discussion or by updating the draft.

//// Note well: this review comes as a complement to a first review I 
did last September. ////


Document: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-as-migration-05
Reviewer: Thomas Morin
Review Date: 2015-06-02
Intended Status: standards track

*Summary:* This document is I think ready for publication.

*Comments:*

This is overall a very well written document, with a clear goal and 
addressing its target goal.

Although it is all about local behavior, it makes sense to make a 
standard track document that (a) can be used as a reference for 
implementors and deployers to implement this properly, and (b) keep 
track of these features in future evolutions of the protocol (as 
motivated in the Conclusion section of the document).

The document has taken into account my comments made on -02, and has 
gone to additional changes that bring significant improvements to the 
document.

*Major Issues:*  No major issues found

*Minor Issues:*

- it sounds weird to name "customer C" the customer attached to ISP B, 
not naming it, or naming it CE-B would better match figures 4 and 5
- figures 1 and 2 could be left-right reversed to match fig 4 and 5
- "are service interrupting to the eBGP sessions of the PE", maybe could 
be worded as "result in a service interruption of eBGP sessions of the 
PE" ?  (or, at least,  "service-interrupting", with a dash)


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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From nobody Wed Jun  3 17:23:07 2015
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Thomas:=20

Thank you for sending in this review.=20

Sue Hares=20

-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 5:21 AM
To: idr@ietf.org; rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-as-migration.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-as-migration-02

Hello,

In the context of Routing Area QA reviews (see =
https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocQa ), I have =
been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The =
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B =
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.

//// Note well: this review comes as a complement to a first review I =
did last September. ////


Document: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-as-migration-05
Reviewer: Thomas Morin
Review Date: 2015-06-02
Intended Status: standards track

*Summary:* This document is I think ready for publication.

*Comments:*

This is overall a very well written document, with a clear goal and=20
addressing its target goal.

Although it is all about local behavior, it makes sense to make a=20
standard track document that (a) can be used as a reference for=20
implementors and deployers to implement this properly, and (b) keep=20
track of these features in future evolutions of the protocol (as=20
motivated in the Conclusion section of the document).

The document has taken into account my comments made on -02, and has=20
gone to additional changes that bring significant improvements to the=20
document.

*Major Issues:*  No major issues found

*Minor Issues:*

- it sounds weird to name "customer C" the customer attached to ISP B,=20
not naming it, or naming it CE-B would better match figures 4 and 5
- figures 1 and 2 could be left-right reversed to match fig 4 and 5
- "are service interrupting to the eBGP sessions of the PE", maybe could =

be worded as "result in a service interruption of eBGP sessions of the=20
PE" ?  (or, at least,  "service-interrupting", with a dash)


_________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.



From nobody Fri Jun  5 09:43:20 2015
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Routing directorate activity: 20 May - 5 June 2015
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This is the semi-regular email to keep you all up to date with the work tha=
t is happening across the routing area directorate.

Since the last update, the following reviews were completed.
-  draft-ietf-idr-as-migration - thanks to Thomas Morin.
-  draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc - thanks to Danny McPherson
-  draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree - thanks to Lizhong Jin
-  draft-ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop - thanks to Tony Przygienda
-  draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange - thanks to Bruno Decraene
-  draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-guidelines - thanks to Stewart Bryant


Six new drafts have come in for the directorate to review, as follows.

draft-rtg-dt-encap
This draft looks at look at common issues for, and relationships between, t=
he different data plane encapsulations being discussed in NVO3, SFC and BIE=
R.

draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2
This draft contains a significant revision of the Ad-Hoc On-demand Distance=
 Vector routing protocol for mobile routers.

The following four TRILL drafts have progressed to IESG review and have bee=
n passed to the directorate for vetting.  If you are able to offer your tim=
e to review any of these TRILL documents, please let me and Jon Hudson know=
.
-  draft-ietf-trill-pseudonode-nickname
-  draft-ietf-trill-cmt
-  draft-ietf-trill-aa-multi-attach
-  draft-ietf-trill-oam-mib


The following chart shows a snapshot of the overall workload currently on t=
he routing directorate.  The latest version of this table can always be fou=
nd here: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev.  If y=
ou would like to step forward as a primary or additional reviewer for any d=
ocument below, it would be very, very welcome - please let me know.

Internet-Draft                                      Assigned Reviewer   Add=
itional Reviewers
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
draft-rtg-dt-encap                                  Eric Gray      =20
draft-ietf-homenet-dncp                             Les Ginsberg        Tho=
mas Clausen
draft-ietf-homenet-hncp                             Martin Vigoureux    Tho=
mas Clausen
draft-filsfils-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop   Sue Hares           Sas=
ha Vainshtein
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2                             Keyur Patel      =20
draft-ietf-manet-dlep                               Lou Berger      =20
draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture                        Carlos Pignataro      =
=20
draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement                   Nabil Bitar      =20
draft-ietf-idr-ix-bgp-route-server                  David Sinicrope      =20
draft-ietf-trill-centralized-replication            Russ White      =20
draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization                   Manav Bhatia      =20
draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms        Matthew Bocci      =20
draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap          =20
draft-ietf-trill-ia-appsubtlv                      =20
draft-ietf-trill-channel-tunnel                    =20
draft-ietf-trill-tree-selection                    =20
draft-ietf-trill-mtu-negotiation                   =20
draft-ietf-trill-smart-endnodes                    =20
draft-ietf-trill-pseudonode-nickname                     =20
draft-ietf-trill-cmt                                     =20
draft-ietf-trill-aa-multi-attach                         =20
draft-ietf-trill-oam-mib                                 =20


Best regards
Jon


From nobody Fri Jun  5 11:09:33 2015
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From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: Jon Hudson <jon.hudson@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Routing Directorate Review of TRILL ARP Optimization
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-09
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 19:27:57 +0000
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-09
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From nobody Fri Jun  5 12:31:58 2015
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Carlos:=20

=20

Let me review these minor comments.  I will send you a response and =
diffs for an updated architecture documents.=20

=20

Sue=20

=20

From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 3:28 PM
To: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture.all@tools.ietf.org; =
i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-09

=20

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. =
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-09=20
Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro=20
Review Date: June 5, 2015=20
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:

=E2=80=A2 I have some *minor* concerns about this document that I think =
should be resolved before publication.

Comments:

This is an extremely well written document that describes the basic =
architecture, modules, and interfaces for interfacing with the routing =
system. Its status targets Informational. idnits reports no real nits, =
only some noise.=20

=20

Thank you for this document!!! I hope you find these comments useful.

Major Issues:

None.=20


Minor Issues:

An Architecture for the Interface to the Routing System
=E2=80=A6
Abstract

   This document describes an architecture for a standard, programmatic
   interface for state transfer in and out of the Internet routing
   system.

CMP: Is this =E2=80=9Can architecture=E2=80=9D, and there are other =
architectures for the I2RS? I have no issues with =E2=80=9Can =
architecture=E2=80=9D, but it invites these questions, including =
=E2=80=98is there an authoritative architecture, and is it this one? =
=E2=80=9CThe IETF defined architecture=E2=80=9D? How about removing the =
=E2=80=9CAn=E2=80=9D from the title, and qualifying the Abstract and =
Intro with =E2=80=9Cas specified in the IETF=E2=80=9D?

1.  Introduction=20

=20

   Network-oriented applications require

   easy access to this information=20

=20

CMP: The concept of a =E2=80=9Cnetwork-oriented application=E2=80=9D is =
a super important piece of the whole picture. While the applications are =
outside the scope of the architecture itself, the network-orientedness =
nature is a key driver, unacknowledged as a key architectural property, =
and only revisited half way down the document in Section 5. One thought =
for your consideration: does it make sense to make this explicit in =
Section 1.2, Architectural Overview, which only defines =
=E2=80=9CApplication=E2=80=9D, or as a driver in S1.1? Just a thought.

=20

General:

=20

CMP: Models =E2=80=94 wc says there are 18 instances of =E2=80=9Cdata =
model=E2=80=9D and 13 of =E2=80=9Cinformation model=E2=80=9D. While =
there are statements in the Intro like =E2=80=9CFundamental to the I2RS =
are clear data models=E2=80=9D, I think the text would benefit from a =
centralized small sentence that explains the requirements for =
information as well as data models for I2RS modules and services. The =
closest is the 1st sentence of S3.3, perhaps, but what=E2=80=99s =
required?

=20

1.2.  Architectural Overview (and Figure 1)

=20

   In the

   figure, Clients A and B provide access to a single application, while

   Client P provides access to multiple applications.

=20

CMP: =E2=80=9CClients A and B provide access to a single =
application=E2=80=9D this can be interpreted as a single Application =
=E2=80=9CX=E2=80=9D accessing both Clients A and B. I would add a =
=E2=80=9C, respectively=E2=80=9D for exampel to disambiguate.

=20

CMP: Also, there is no text specifying whether an application can access =
I2RS services via more than one Agents.

=20

6.4.1.  Routing and Label Information Bases

   Routing elements may maintain one or more Information Bases.

   Examples include Routing Information Bases such as IPv4/IPv6 Unicast

   or IPv4/IPv6 Multicast.  Another such example includes the MPLS Label

   Information Bases, per-platform or per-interface.=20

=20

CMP: or per-context (instead of/in addition to per-interface)?

=20

8.  Operational and Manageability Considerations

=20

CMP: Might be useful to add traceability of interactions of I2RS as a =
consideration.

=20

Nits:

CMP: Some nits, small editorials, and suggestions for your =
considerations:

1.  Introduction

   Routers that form the internet routing infrastructure maintain state

   at various layers of detail and function.  For example, a typical

=20

=E2=80=A6 [and]

=20

   today's routed networks.  The I2RS is a programmatic asynchronous

   interface for transferring state into and out of the internet routing

=20

=E2=80=A6 [and]

=20

   Routing and Signaling:   This block represents that portion of the

      Routing Element that implements part of the internet routing

=20

CMP: s/the internet/the Internet/ (or an internet? I think the meaning =
is =E2=80=9Cthe Internet=E2=80=9D)

=20

1.1.  Drivers for the I2RS Architecture

   The I2RS architecture facilitates obtaining information from the

   router.  The I2RS architecture provides the ability to not only read

   specific information, but also to subscribe to targeted information

   streams and filtered and thresholded events.

=20

CMP: s/streams and filtered and thresholded events/streams, filtered =
events, and events subject to a threshold/

=20

1.2.  Architectural Overview

=20

      *  An LSR that implements RSVP-TE, OSPF-TE, and PCEP and has a

         forwarding plane and associated RIB Manager,

=20

      *  A server that runs ISIS, OSPF, BGP and uses ForCES to control a

         remote forwarding plane,

=20

      A Routing Element may be locally managed, whether via CLI, SNMP,

      or NETCONF.

=20

CMP: Some of these acronyms require expansion on first use. See =
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-style-guide/abbrev.expansion.txt

=20

1.2.  Architectural Overview

=20

   I2RS Agent:   See the definition in Section 2.

=20

   I2RS Client:   See the definition in Section 2.

=20

CMP: This section describes the architectural elements. Section 2, =
however, defines =E2=80=9Cterminology=E2=80=9D. I would move the =
definitions of agent and client to this place.

=20

=20

   Static System State:   An I2RS agent needs access to static state on

      a routing element beyond what is contained in the routing

      subsystem.  An example of such state is specifying queueing

=20

CMP: s/queueing/queuing/ ? Not sure :-)

=20

   read scope:   The set of information which the I2RS client is

      authorized to read.  The read scope specifies the access

=20

CMP: s/which/that/

=20

   not yet available.  Instead, each router uses different information,

   different mechanisms, and different CLI which makes a standard

   interface for use by applications extremely cumbersome to develop and

   maintain.

=20

s/which/, all of which/

=20

  The
   identity within NACM [RFC6536] can be specify as either a user name
   or a group user name (e.g.  Root), and this name is linked a scope
   policy that contained in a a set of access control rules.

=20

CMP: Duplicate =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D

=20

   scope policy.  Multiple identities may link to the same role (e.g
   ability to read I2RS RIB).

=20

CMP: s/e.g/e.g.,/

=20

6.4.5.1.  Managing Variation: Object Classes/Types and Inheritance

=20

  Clients which only want

   basic capabilities can operate purely in terms of base or parent

   classes, while a client needing more details or features can work

   with the supported sub-class(es).

=20

CMP: s/which/that/

=20

7.4.  Scope Policy Specifications
=20
   As section 4.1 and 4.2 describe, each I2RS Client will have a unique
   identity and it may have a secondary identity (see section 2) to aid
   in troubleshooting.  As section 4 indicates, all authentication and
   authorization mechanisms are based on the primary Identity which
   links to a role with scope policy for for reading data, for writing

=20

CMP: Duplicate =E2=80=9Cfor=E2=80=9D

=20

General:

=20

CMP: s/data-model/data model/g (unless used as an adjective :-)

=20

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

=20

=20


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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Carlos: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Let me review these minor comments.=C2=A0 I will send you a response =
and diffs for an updated architecture documents. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Sue <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Friday, June 05, 2015 3:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rtg-dir@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture.all@tools.ietf.org; =
i2rs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RtgDir review: =
draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-09<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello,<br><br>I have been selected as the Routing =
Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to =
review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through =
IETF&nbsp;last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. =
The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. =
For more information about the Routing&nbsp;Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8B<a =
href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir">http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br><br>Although these =
comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be =
helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call =
comments that you&nbsp;receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.<br><br><i>Document: =
draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-09&nbsp;<br>Reviewer: Carlos =
Pignataro&nbsp;<br>Review Date: June 5, 2015&nbsp;<br>Intended Status: =
Informational<br></i><br><b>Summary:<br></b><br>=E2=80=A2 I have some =
*minor* concerns about this document that I think should be resolved =
before publication.<br><br><b>Comments:<br></b><br>This is an extremely =
well written document that describes the basic architecture, modules, =
and interfaces for interfacing with the routing system. Its status =
targets Informational. idnits reports no real nits, only some noise. =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you for this document!!! I hope you find these =
comments useful.<br><br><b>Major Issues:<br></b><br>None. =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Minor =
Issues:<br></b><br>An Architecture for the Interface to the Routing =
System<br>=E2=80=A6<br>Abstract<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;This document =
describes an architecture for a standard, programmatic<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;interface for state transfer in and out of the Internet =
routing<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;system.<br><br>CMP: Is this =E2=80=9Can =
architecture=E2=80=9D, and there are other architectures for the I2RS? I =
have no issues with =E2=80=9Can architecture=E2=80=9D, but it invites =
these questions, including =E2=80=98is there an authoritative =
architecture, and is it this one? =E2=80=9CThe IETF defined =
architecture=E2=80=9D? How about removing the =E2=80=9CAn=E2=80=9D from =
the title, and qualifying the Abstract and Intro with =E2=80=9Cas =
specified in the IETF=E2=80=9D?<br><br>1. &nbsp;Introduction =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Network-oriented applications =
require<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;easy =
access to this information&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: The concept of a =E2=80=9Cnetwork-oriented =
application=E2=80=9D is a super important piece of the whole picture. =
While the applications are outside the scope of the architecture itself, =
the network-orientedness nature is a key driver, unacknowledged as a key =
architectural property, and only revisited half way down the document in =
Section 5. One thought for your consideration: does it make sense to =
make this explicit in Section 1.2, Architectural Overview, which only =
defines =E2=80=9CApplication=E2=80=9D, or as a driver in S1.1? Just a =
thought.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>General:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: Models =E2=80=94 wc says there are 18 instances =
of =E2=80=9Cdata model=E2=80=9D and 13 of =E2=80=9Cinformation =
model=E2=80=9D. While there are statements in the Intro like =
=E2=80=9CFundamental to the I2RS are clear data models=E2=80=9D, I think =
the text would benefit from a centralized small sentence that explains =
the requirements for information as well as data models for I2RS modules =
and services. The closest is the 1st sentence of S3.3, perhaps, but =
what=E2=80=99s required?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1.2. &nbsp;Architectural Overview (and Figure =
1)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;In the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;figure, Clients A and B provide access to =
a single application, while<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Client P provides access to multiple =
applications.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: =E2=80=9CClients A and B provide access to a =
single application=E2=80=9D this can be interpreted as a single =
Application =E2=80=9CX=E2=80=9D accessing both Clients A and B. I would =
add a =E2=80=9C, respectively=E2=80=9D for exampel to =
disambiguate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: Also, there is no text specifying whether an =
application can access I2RS services via more than one =
Agents.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>6.4.1. &nbsp;Routing and Label =
Information Bases<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Routing elements may maintain one or more Information =
Bases.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Examples include Routing Information Bases such as IPv4/IPv6 =
Unicast<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;or =
IPv4/IPv6 Multicast. &nbsp;Another such example includes the MPLS =
Label<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Information Bases, per-platform or =
per-interface.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: or per-context (instead of/in addition to =
per-interface)?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>8. &nbsp;Operational and Manageability =
Considerations<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: Might be useful to add traceability of =
interactions of I2RS as a consideration.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b>Nits:<br></b><br>CMP: Some nits, small =
editorials, and suggestions for your considerations:<br><br>1. =
&nbsp;Introduction<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Routers that form the internet routing infrastructure maintain =
state<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;at =
various layers of detail and function. &nbsp;For example, a =
typical<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=E2=80=A6 [and]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;today's routed networks. &nbsp;The I2RS =
is a programmatic asynchronous<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;interface for transferring state into and =
out of the internet routing<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=E2=80=A6 [and]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Routing and Signaling: &nbsp; This block =
represents that portion of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Routing Element that implements =
part of the internet routing<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/the internet/the Internet/ (or an internet? I =
think the meaning is =E2=80=9Cthe =
Internet=E2=80=9D)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>1.1. &nbsp;Drivers for the I2RS =
Architecture<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;The =
I2RS architecture facilitates obtaining information from =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;router. =
&nbsp;The I2RS architecture provides the ability to not only =
read<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;specific =
information, but also to subscribe to targeted =
information<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;streams and filtered and thresholded =
events.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/streams and filtered and thresholded =
events/streams, filtered events, and events subject to a =
threshold/<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1.2. &nbsp;Architectural =
Overview<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * &nbsp;An LSR that implements =
RSVP-TE, OSPF-TE, and PCEP and has a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;forwarding plane and =
associated RIB Manager,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * &nbsp;A server that runs ISIS, =
OSPF, BGP and uses ForCES to control a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;remote forwarding =
plane,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A Routing Element may be locally =
managed, whether via CLI, SNMP,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; or =
NETCONF.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: Some of these acronyms require expansion on first =
use. See&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-style-guide/abbrev.expansion.txt">=
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-style-guide/abbrev.expansion.txt</a><o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1.2. &nbsp;Architectural =
Overview<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;I2RS Agent: &nbsp; See the definition =
in&nbsp;Section 2.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;I2RS Client: &nbsp; See the definition in Section =
2.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: This section describes the architectural =
elements. Section 2, however, defines =E2=80=9Cterminology=E2=80=9D. I =
would move the definitions of agent and client to this =
place.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Static System State: &nbsp; An I2RS agent =
needs access to static state on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a routing element beyond what is =
contained in the routing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; subsystem. &nbsp;An example of =
such state is specifying queueing<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/queueing/queuing/ ? Not sure =
:-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;read scope: &nbsp; The set of information =
which the I2RS client is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; authorized to read. &nbsp;The =
read scope specifies the access<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/which/that/<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;not yet available. &nbsp;Instead, each =
router uses different information,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;different mechanisms, and different CLI =
which makes a standard<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;interface for use by applications =
extremely cumbersome to develop and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;maintain.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>s/which/, all of which/<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;The<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;identity =
within&nbsp;NACM [RFC6536] can be specify as either a user =
name<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;or a group user&nbsp;name (e.g.&nbsp;&nbsp;Root), =
and this name is&nbsp;linked a scope<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;policy&nbsp;that =
contained in a a set of access control =
rules.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: Duplicate =
=E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;scope&nbsp;policy.&nbsp;&nbsp;Multiple =
identities may link to&nbsp;the same role (e.g<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;ability =
to read&nbsp;I2RS RIB).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/e.g/e.g.,/<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>6.4.5.1. &nbsp;Managing Variation: Object =
Classes/Types and Inheritance<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; Clients which only =
want<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;basic =
capabilities can operate purely in terms of base or =
parent<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;classes, while a client needing more details or features can =
work<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;with the =
supported sub-class(es).<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/which/that/<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>7.4.&nbsp;&nbsp;Scope =
Policy&nbsp;Specifications<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;As section =
4.1&nbsp;and 4.2 describe, each I2RS Client will have a unique<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;identity and it&nbsp;may have a secondary identity (see section 2) =
to aid<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;in&nbsp;troubleshooting.&nbsp;&nbsp;As section 4 =
indicates,&nbsp;all authentication and<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;authorization&nbsp;mechanisms are based on the primary Identity =
which<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;links to a role&nbsp;with scope policy for for =
reading data, for writing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: Duplicate =
=E2=80=9Cfor=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>General:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>CMP: s/data-model/data model/g (unless used as an =
adjective :-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=E2=80=94 Carlos.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></bo=
dy></html>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review of TRILL ARP Optimization
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Eric:

=20

Thank you for the review.  The authors will address the minor points.  =
Donald and Jon have for years provided guidance to authors to help them =
work on the readability of the TRILL drafts.  It makes my job this year =
easy.=20

=20

Sue=20

=20

From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 2:09 PM
To: Jon Hudson; draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization@tools.ietf.org
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review of TRILL ARP =
Optimization

=20

Hello,=20

=20

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. =
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir=20

=20

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.

=20

Document: draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization/=20

Reviewer: Eric Gray

Review Date: 5 June, 2015=20

IETF LC End Date: unknown=20

Intended Status: Standards Track=20

=20

Summary:=20

I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be =
resolved before publication.

=20

Comments:=20

=E2=80=A2Generally, I found this draft to be very well written and =
easily understandable.=20

=E2=80=A2 I had some difficulty in drawing a line between minor comments =
and NITs in a

    few cases.  I tried to treat comments that were about typos, =
spelling errors or=20

    grammar as NITs and other cases where wording choices were =
ambiguous, or

    potentially misleading as minor comments.  Hopefully the intent of =
each of my=20

    comments is clear.

=20

Major Issues:=20

=E2=80=A2No major issues found.=20

=20

Minor Issues:=20

=E2=80=A2 I have some difficulty in parsing the second sentence of the =
first paragraph

   under section 1.1 (Terminology).  What does =E2=80=9Clisted below for =
convenience=20

    with the following along with some additions=E2=80=9D mean?=20

=E2=80=A2 The last sentence in the definition of =
=E2=80=9CCampus=E2=80=9D adds no value and should be=20

    removed. The English meaning of Campus includes usages that are not =
limited

    to schools (which is what I assume you mean in using the term =
=E2=80=9Cacademic=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 as

    opposed to differentiation from =E2=80=9Cpractical=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Ccommercial=E2=80=9D).  For example, a

    corporation or partnership may have more than one campus.=20

=E2=80=A2 MAC is an acronym for Media Access Control, which is a =
link-layer function that

    has an address; =E2=80=9CMAC=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMAC =
Address=E2=80=9D are not synonymous.  You could

    resolve this issue by either removing =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D or =
putting it in parentheses.=20

=E2=80=A2 The definition for RBridge is inadequate as is, because it =
uses the undefined=20

    phrase =E2=80=9CRouting Bridge.=E2=80=9D  This phrase is ambiguous =
generally (though likely not

    so much in this context) because it could be taken to mean a device =
that is a

    Bridge with some subset of IP routing capabilities (which =
isn=E2=80=99t what you mean)

    to differentiate such a device from a Bridging Router (a common =
capability in

    many =E2=80=93 if not most =E2=80=93 routers).=20

=E2=80=A2 In Bullet =E2=80=9Ca.1=E2=80=9D in section 3.2 (Determine How =
to Reply to ARP/ND), =E2=80=9Cbelieved=E2=80=9D

    is the wrong term.  RBridges =E2=80=93 like any other devices =
=E2=80=93 are incapable of having

    beliefs.  Either it =E2=80=9Cknows=E2=80=9D the mapping information =
required to construct a

    response (through whatever means), or it does not.  As a side note, =
it might be

    philosophically interesting to define what =E2=80=9Cbelief=E2=80=9D =
means for a device.  J

=E2=80=A2 In the next-to-last paragraph of section 3.2, I am pretty sure =
you want to say

   that encryption would (as opposed to might) prevent local reply.  =
That is what

   signing responses is precisely intended to prevent.=20

=E2=80=A2 In section 4, why are the quoted terms =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D used?  As

    noted/implied in NITs below, there are many kinds of =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D addresses

    and many possible meaning for =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D address.  =
If these are used as they

    are the specific terms used for message content fields, perhaps it =
would be

    less ambiguous to put IP in parentheses (after =
=E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D) and MAC (after

    =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D)?=20

=E2=80=A2 In section 5 (Security Considerations), the parenthesized =
fourth paragraph=20

    should be removed from parentheses and made a separate paragraph.  =
The

    potential for use of authentication methods to mitigate risk is an =
important=20

    things for a security considerations section to highlight.

=20

Nits:=20

=E2=80=A2 Mostly out of curiosity, why define alternative term =
=E2=80=9CTRILL switch=E2=80=9D instead of=20

    simply using one term consistently?  You could simply define an =
RBridge as a

    device implementing the TRILL protocol and use the term RBridge =
consistently.

    This approach solves two problems.

=E2=80=A2 In the definition of the acronym =E2=80=9CND=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9CDiscoery=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CDiscovery.=E2=80=9D=20

=E2=80=A2 The word =E2=80=9Ctraditionally=E2=80=9D in the first line of =
section 2 (IP/MAC Address Mappings),

    and =E2=80=9Ccorrespondence=E2=80=9D in the second line are poor =
choices.  In the first case, we=20

    can have no idea what =E2=80=9Ctraditionally=E2=80=9D means because =
there is no =E2=80=9Ctradition=E2=80=9D for

    implementing RBridges.  In the second case, =
=E2=80=9Ccorrespondence=E2=80=9D is an ambiguous

    term that is not quite correct in any case.  Also =E2=80=9Cremote =
host=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cremote

    end station=E2=80=9D as it is an Ethernet end station that may or =
may not be a host (it may

    be a router, for example). I recommend rephrasing the entire first =
sentence as

    =E2=80=9CAn RBridge (as defined in RFC 6325 and RFC 7172) learns MAC =
Address and Data=20

    Label (VLAN or FGL) to nickname mapping information from TRILL data =
frames it

    receives.=E2=80=9D  There has never been anything to prevent an =
RBridge implementation

    from learning anything that an RBridge implementation might be =
configured to=20

    look at.=20

=E2=80=A2 In the second paragraph of section 2, =E2=80=9Clocal =
hosts=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cend stations.=E2=80=9D=20

=E2=80=A2 In the third paragraph of section 2 =E2=80=9Cexamples given =
above shows=E2=80=9D should be=20

   =E2=80=9Cexamples given above show.=E2=80=9D=20

=E2=80=A2 In the second and third bullets of the second paragraph in =
section 3 (Handling=20

    ARP/ND Messages), neither =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D nor =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D are specific enough.  I=20

    recommend changing the bullets to read =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 sender =
IP/MAC address =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D in both

    bullets.=20

=E2=80=A2 In section 3.3 =E2=80=9CR2 should initiates=E2=80=9D should be =
=E2=80=9CR2 should initiate.=E2=80=9D


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Eric:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you for the review.=C2=A0 The authors will address the minor =
points.=C2=A0 Donald and Jon have for years provided guidance to authors =
to help them work on the readability of the TRILL drafts.=C2=A0 It makes =
my job this year easy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Sue <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric =
Gray<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 05, 2015 2:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jon =
Hudson; draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization@tools.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
rtg-dir@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate =
Review of TRILL ARP Optimization<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Hello, =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>I have been selected as the Routing Directorate =
reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all =
routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call =
and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the =
review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information =
about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B<a =
href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir">http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Although these comments are primarily for the use =
of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along =
with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to =
resolve them through discussion or by updating the =
draft.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Document: =
draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization">htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization</a><o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization=
/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization/</a>=
 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Reviewer: Eric =
Gray<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Review Date: 5 June, 2015 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>IETF LC End Date: unknown =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Intended Status: Standards Track =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Summary: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I =
have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be =
resolved before publication.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Comments: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2Generally, I found this draft to be very =
well written and easily understandable. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 I had some difficulty in drawing a line =
between minor comments and NITs in a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; few cases.&nbsp; I tried to =
treat comments that were about typos, spelling errors or =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;grammar =
as NITs and other cases where wording choices were ambiguous, =
or<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; potentially =
misleading as minor comments.&nbsp; Hopefully the intent of each of my =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;comments =
is clear.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Major Issues: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2No major issues found. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Minor =
Issues: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 I have some =
difficulty in parsing the second sentence of the first =
paragraph<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;under =
section 1.1 (Terminology).&nbsp; What does =E2=80=9Clisted below for =
convenience <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;with the following along =
with some additions=E2=80=9D mean? <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 The last sentence in the definition of =
=E2=80=9CCampus=E2=80=9D adds no value and should be <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;removed. The English =
meaning of Campus includes usages that are not limited<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to schools (which is what I =
assume you mean in using the term =E2=80=9Cacademic=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =
as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; opposed to =
differentiation from =E2=80=9Cpractical=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Ccommercial=E2=80=9D).&nbsp; For example, a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; corporation or partnership may =
have more than one campus. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 MAC is an acronym for Media Access =
Control, which is a link-layer function that<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; has an address; =
=E2=80=9CMAC=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMAC Address=E2=80=9D are not =
synonymous.&nbsp; You could<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; resolve this issue by either =
removing =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D or putting it in parentheses. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 The definition for =
RBridge is inadequate as is, because it uses the undefined =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;phrase =
=E2=80=9CRouting Bridge.=E2=80=9D&nbsp; This phrase is ambiguous =
generally (though likely not<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; so much in this context) because =
it could be taken to mean a device that is a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bridge with some subset of IP =
routing capabilities (which isn=E2=80=99t what you =
mean)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to =
differentiate such a device from a Bridging Router (a common capability =
in<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; many =
=E2=80=93 if not most =E2=80=93 routers). <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In Bullet =E2=80=9Ca.1=E2=80=9D in =
section 3.2 (Determine How to Reply to ARP/ND), =
=E2=80=9Cbelieved=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;is the wrong term.&nbsp; =
RBridges =E2=80=93 like any other devices =E2=80=93 are incapable of =
having<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
beliefs.&nbsp; Either it =E2=80=9Cknows=E2=80=9D the mapping information =
required to construct a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; response (through whatever =
means), or it does not.&nbsp; As a side note, it might =
be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
philosophically interesting to define what =E2=80=9Cbelief=E2=80=9D =
means for a device.&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:Wingdings'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In the next-to-last paragraph of section =
3.2, I am pretty sure you want to say<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp; that encryption <b><i>would</i></b> =
(as opposed to <b><i>might</i></b>) prevent local reply.&nbsp; That is =
what<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp; signing =
responses is precisely intended to prevent. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In section 4, why are the quoted terms =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D used?&nbsp; =
As<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
noted/implied in NITs below, there are many kinds of =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D addresses<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and many possible meaning for =
=E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D address.&nbsp; If these are used as =
they<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; are the =
specific terms used for message content fields, perhaps it would =
be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; less =
ambiguous to put IP in parentheses (after =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D) =
and MAC (after<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D)? <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In section 5 (Security Considerations), =
the parenthesized fourth paragraph <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;should be removed from =
parentheses and made a separate paragraph.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; potential for use of =
authentication methods to mitigate risk is an important =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;things =
for a security considerations section to highlight.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Nits: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 Mostly out of =
curiosity, why define alternative term =E2=80=9CTRILL switch=E2=80=9D =
instead of <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;simply using one term =
consistently? &nbsp;You could simply define an RBridge as =
a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; device =
implementing the TRILL protocol and use the term RBridge =
consistently.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This approach solves two problems.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In the definition of the acronym =
=E2=80=9CND=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CDiscoery=E2=80=9D should be =
=E2=80=9CDiscovery.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 The word =E2=80=9Ctraditionally=E2=80=9D =
in the first line of section 2 (IP/MAC Address =
Mappings),<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and =
=E2=80=9Ccorrespondence=E2=80=9D in the second line are poor =
choices.&nbsp; In the first case, we <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;can have no idea what =
=E2=80=9Ctraditionally=E2=80=9D means because there is no =
=E2=80=9Ctradition=E2=80=9D for<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; implementing RBridges. &nbsp;In =
the second case, =E2=80=9Ccorrespondence=E2=80=9D is an =
ambiguous<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; term =
that is not quite correct in any case.&nbsp; Also =E2=80=9Cremote =
host=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cremote<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; end station=E2=80=9D as it is an =
Ethernet end station that may or may not be a host (it =
may<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be a =
router, for example). I recommend rephrasing the entire first sentence =
as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CAn =
RBridge (as defined in RFC 6325 and RFC 7172) learns MAC Address and =
Data <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Label (VLAN or FGL) to =
nickname mapping information from TRILL data frames it<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; receives.=E2=80=9D&nbsp; There =
has never been anything to prevent an RBridge =
implementation<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
from learning anything that an RBridge implementation might be =
configured to <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;look at. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In the second paragraph of section 2, =
=E2=80=9Clocal hosts=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cend stations.=E2=80=9D =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In the third paragraph =
of section 2 =E2=80=9Cexamples given above shows=E2=80=9D should be =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cexamples given above =
show.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In the =
second and third bullets of the second paragraph in section 3 (Handling =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ARP/ND =
Messages), neither =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=9D nor =
=E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D are specific enough.&nbsp; I =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;recommend =
changing the bullets to read =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 sender IP/MAC address =
=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D in both<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; bullets. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=E2=80=A2 In section 3.3 =E2=80=9CR2 should =
initiates=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CR2 should =
initiate.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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[Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.]

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG
review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as was the
case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chairs and)
Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with
any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve
them through discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
Reviewer: Lou Berger
Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comments -- sorry)
WG LC End Date: unknown
Intended Status: Standards track

Summary:

    While I think the document is pretty decent for the scope of the
    work, I do have concerns about this document and recommend that the
    WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.
    I'm also available as/if needed to discuss.

Comments:

    I think the document shows significant good work and looks to be a
    useful protocol, although I'm not overly familiar in this space.
    That said, I have a number of serious concerns about the document,
    and its contents from a few of perspectives.  These include basic
    protocol issues, underspecified details  (which could lead to
    interoperability issues), and specification/editorial issues. I
    think the document / protocol can be modified to address the issues
    I raise below.  Of course, it is up to the WG, chairs, and ADs to
    decide which comments to address and which to  ignore. 
    I don't expect that all comments will result in changes.

Major Issues:

    - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8
      bits.  While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measure,
      which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for
      larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. --
      We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain.

    - Version number is currently defined as a data item.  This means a
      signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to
      discover what version is being used.  This precludes basic format
      changes to the protocol.  Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals
      should be special cased to include version in their formats.  (And
      shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below).

    - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and
      'discovery' states.  These either need to be formally defined or
      removed.  BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) and
      ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of the
      process.

    - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship
      with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined.  For example:

      o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in a
        way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior
        (close TCP before ACK is received).

      o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP
        session be reused or must it be closed too?

    - There is no transaction model defined.  For example, it's
      completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at a
      time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps
      there are no restrictions.  This needs to be explicit.  

    - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP?  Retries
      aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being used.

    - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really
      clear.  It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliable
      transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. Of
      course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others
      should be clear.  For example, in section 7.10, why would there be
      a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an
      error?

    - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there really
      none?  For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limit
      Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle
      the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go
      down.

    - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to
      define their own 'heuristics'.  Some of these seem unnecessary due
      to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protocol
      should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent
      behavior from implementations.

    - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental
      Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8).  Both seem to support for
      optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values,
      why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.
      o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between
        these?
      o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized?

    - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items.  The
      definition related to these basically says a resources is "An
      8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of
      resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.".  If I were
      implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce,
      update or use this information.  I think there is some missing
      informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these
      formats.

    - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar
      problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if
      there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link quality
      that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is just
      passed for as monitoring information.  Either way, this needs to
      be clarified.

    - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the one
      documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged,
      but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of
      credits relative to the data plane.   

    - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
      optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
      allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
      issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.

    - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirements
      on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no
      ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within
      Signals.

    - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a
      signal isn't always clear.  For example are 0/1/N copies of a
      particular Data Item required/allowed.  Using something like ABNF
      would really help formalize and clarify this.

    - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrative
      text, normative / required processing procedures, and message
      formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it just
      makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol.
      What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate
      (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for
      omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error
      processing).  Specific examples are included above and below.  It
      would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior is
      defined just once and in a consistent way.

    - The security consideration section is inadequate.  This section
      should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user
      traffic.  It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possible
      exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol.  rfc6952,
      and the protocols it references can serve as examples.

Minor Issues:

    - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits.  This seems
      pretty small, particularly the data type field.  Given this is a
      control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field
      would provide better "future proofing".

    - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1).  This seems a
      bit excessive.  I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself.

    - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to have a
      generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mention
      this here as this may come up again when clarifying the
      transaction model (as mentioned above.)

    - Section 2: Assumptions
      This section includes informative and normative text so is more
      than just Assumptions.  Personally, I'd remove all normative text
      from the section.

    - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation.

    - Sections 8.10->8.17.  Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnets
      in destination update signals?

    - The IANA Considerations sections must follow​ RFC2360.

    - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in
      the document.  (The document currently has many TBDs that should
      be replaced.)

    - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.:
    The registry should be established with registration policies of
    "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and
    “Specification Required" (for other documents). The designated
    expert is any current <fill-in> WG chair.

Nits:

    - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for
      what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in
      other protocols.  It's probably too late to change this, but I
      think the introduction of unique terminology is counter
      productive.

    - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there are
      words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look at
      http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some
      suggestions.

    - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times.  It
      really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the wire.

    - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably octets)

    - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add value,
      suggest dropping them.

    - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent?

    - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable length
      field.

    - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable length
      field.

That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anything.  Look forward
to hearing response to the above (and how I got things hopelessly wrong ;-)

Lou




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From: "Shitanshu Shah (svshah)" <svshah@cisco.com>
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To: "draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement@tools.ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>
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Nabil:=20

=20

Thank you for this review.  The I2RS chairs appreciate the careful =
review.  I think we are aligned with you that we want a fresh-updated =
draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement.  Alia Atlas (one of the co-author) =
and I will chat within a day or so and get back to you on the nits.=20

=20

Sue=20

=20

From: Bitar, Nabil N [mailto:nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com]=20
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 7:38 PM
To: draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement@tools.ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; Jonathan Hardwick; =
i2rs-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of =
draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement

=20

 Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. =
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see  =
<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir> =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.=20

Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement-06.txt

Reviewer: Nabil Bitar
Review Date: 6/14/2015
IETF LC End Date: Unknown
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:

I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be =
resolved before publication. The document has nits that should also be =
considered prior to publication.

Comments:

This document is intended to describe the problem that i2rs needs to =
address. The document readability can be improved by::

1.	starting with the abstract, clearly and progressively stating what =
i2rs is, the driver for the problem to be addressed, and the =
objective/problem to be solved. Comments that address this issue are =
aprovided.
2.	Clearly identifying early in the document where currently solutions =
that seem to be addressing the problem fail. This is a key component of =
the problem statement. This is currently left ambiguous to the reader =
untiil the appendix. For instance, the document may refer to the =
appendix early on, pointing the reader to gaps in existing interfaces =
for managing routing information compared to the needs. =20
3.	Defining or referring to the definition of terminology used in the =
document

Major Issues:

No major issues found

Minor Issues:

1- Abstract: I suggest the addition of the following at the beginning of =
the first paragraph:

Traditionally, routing systems have implemented routing and signaling =
(e.g., multiprotcol label switch) protocols to control traffic =
forwarding in a network. Route computation has been controlled by =
relatively static policies that define link cost, route cost or import =
and export routing policies. With the advent of highly dynamic data =
center networking, on-demand WAN services, dynamic policy-driven traffic =
steering and service chaining, the need for real-time security threat =
responsiveness via traffic control,  and the software defined networking =
paradigm, the need has emerged to  more dynamically manage and program =
routing systems in order to control routing information and  traffic =
paths, and to extract network topology information and traffic =
statistics, among others, from routing systems. As modern networks =
continue to grow =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6 (the rest of the first paragraph in =
the abstract.

2-Abstract: second paragraph first sentence, suggest the following =
modification:

In order to enable network applications to have access to and control =
over information in the internet=E2=80=99s routing system, we need a =
publicly documented interface specification. =E2=80=94> In order to =
enable network applications to access and control information in a =
routing system uniformly across implementations, we need a standard =
specification for the interface to the routing system that enables such =
control.=20

=20

3- Abstract: Second paragraph, second sentence:

The interface needs to support real-time, asynchronous interactions =
using data models and encodings that are efficient and potentially =
different from those available today. =E2=80=94> The interface needs to =
support real-time, asynchronous interactions using efficient data models =
and  encodings that could be potentially different from those already =
defined. =20

=20

4- Introduction, first sentence second line:

 Flexible and dynamic control increases. =E2=80=94> flexible, scalable =
and dynamic control increases.

=20

5- Introduction, last paragraph, second sentence on page 3:

=20

This is meant to refer to an executable program of some sort that has =
access to a network, such as IP or MPLS network  =E2=80=94> This is =
meant to refer to an executable program that has direct or indirect =
access to a network, such as an IP or MPLS network, in order to control =
routing behavior or extract information.

=20

6- Section 2, 1st paragraph 1st sentence and 2nd sentence::

=20

"Managing a network of production devices running a variety of routing =
protocols involves interactions between multiple components within a =
device. Some of those components are virtual while some are physical; it =
may be desirable for many, or even all of these components to be made =
available to be managed and manipulated by applications, given that =
appropriate access, authentication and policy hurdles have been =
crossed."

=20

I am not sure what is the significance of virtual or physical within a =
device.=20

=20

Change to:

=20

Managing a network of systems running a variety of routing protocols =
and/or providing one or more additional service (e.g., forwarding, =
classification and policing, firewalling) involves interactions among =
multiple components within these systems. Some of these systems or =
system components may be virtualized, co-locqted within the same =
physical system or distributed. In all cases, it is desirable to enable =
network applications to manage and control the services provided by =
many, if not all, of these components, subject to authenticated and =
authorized access and policies.

=20

7- section 2, middle of the first paragraph:

=E2=80=9Cthe management of of only some of these component requires =
(note missing =E2=80=9Cs=E2=80=9D in original text) standardization as =
others have already been standardized.=E2=80=9D

=20

While I understand the intention, this is an ambiguous general statement =
that begs the question which components require standardization and =
which ones do not.=20

=20

I suggest the following wording:

=20

The i2rs working group must identify the components that need to be =
managed via i2rs and require new a standardization effort.=20

=20

7- section 2, when talking about the I2RS model, I suggest that you =
refer to the terminology defined in the i2rs architecture document and =
define the new terminology otherwise. Specifically, what is anI2RS =
client, I2RS agent, etc.

=20

8- section 2, the sentence before last in the first paragraph:

=20

=E2=80=9CThe I2RS client is used and controlled by one or more network =
applications; they may be co-located or the I2RS client might be part of =
a separate application, such as orchestration or controller.=E2=80=9D

=20

This seems to imply that an orchestrator or controller is an =
application, while each could be composed of one or more applications. =
In addition, what a controller or orchestrator is not defined in this =
document either directly or by reference. I suggest the following:

=20

The I2RS client could be integrated in a network application, or =
controlled and used by by one or more separate network applications. For =
instance, an I2RS client could be provided by a network controller or a =
network orchestration system that provides a non-I2RS interface to =
network applications, and an I2rS interface to I2RS agents on the system =
being managed.=20

=20

9- Section 2 Figure 1, suggest to include in words what is within i2rs =
scope in the figure in order to make it easirer for the reader. I =
suggest the following:

=20

As depicted in Figure 1, the I2RS client and I2RS agent in a routing =
system are objects within the I2RS scope. The i2RS protocol or set of =
protocols to be defined/and or identified extend between the I2RS client =
and I2RS agent.   All other objects and interfaces in Figure 1 are =
outside the I2RS scope.

=20

10- section 3, page 5, last sentence of the first paragraph:

=E2=80=9CIn addition, by having I2RS focus initially on interfaces to =
the RIB layer (e.g., RIBm LIB, multicast RIB, policy-based routing), the =
ability to use routing indirection allows flexibility and functionality =
that can=E2=80=99t be easily obtained at the forwarding layer.=E2=80=9D

=20

I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make in the last =
phrase in this sentence pertaining to the forwarding plane. Can you =
please explain? I don=E2=80=99t see it as a valid statement and =
therefore why it is needed.

=20

11- section 3, third paragraph:

=20

=E2=80=9C.. , there is need to configure the various routing and =
signaling protocols with differing dynamic state based upon =
application-level policy decisions.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

You are not configuring routing and signaling protocols' dynamic states, =
you are configuring policies and values for parameters that effect route =
computation/decision or routing information that goes into the RIB. If =
you agree, can you make th corresponding update.

=20

12- section 3, third paragraph

=20

=E2=80=9CThe range desired is not available via MIB modules at the =
present=E2=80=9D.=20

=20

Can you clarify what range you are referring to and subsequently any =
reference to where it is deemed that current MIBS do not not support the =
need. I am not sure though there is need to refer to current MIBs.

=20

13- section 4 page 5, last sentence:

=20

=E2=80=9CI2RS provides a framework =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> I2RS should provide a framework =E2=80=A6..

=20

14- section 4, page 6 1st paragraph first sentence.

=20

=E2=80=9C.. Still provide only the current active state as seen at the =
IGP layer and above.=E2=80=9D

=20

What are you defining by above in this context?

=20

15- Section 4, page 6 3rd paragraph last sentence:

=20

=E2=80=9C.. the full range is not=E2=80=9D=20

=20

Can you give an example to illustrate?

=20

=E2=80=9Cnor has there been successfully deployed the standardized =
ability to setup the router to trigger different actions upon an =
events=E2=80=99 occurrence so that a rapid reaction can be =
accomplished=E2=80=9D

=20

Wouldn=E2=80=99t FRR for instance be a counter example to this =
statement?=20

=20

16- Section 5, page 7,

=20

=E2=80=9CHigh-Throughput: At a minimum, the I2RS agent and associated =
router should be able to handle a considerable =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94> High-Throuput: at a minimum, within the I2RS scope, the I2RS =
agent and I2RS client(s) should be able to handle a considerable =
=E2=80=A6

=20

Multi-Channel: "=E2=80=A6.. Thus a single TCP session would not be a =
good match=E2=80=9D

=20

This comes across as if you are already that TCP will always be the =
transport layer. I suggest the following change:

=20

=20

Nits:

1.	Section 8, security considerations: 3rd line, missing =
=E2=80=9C.=E2=80=9D after section 5.
2.	Appendix A, page 9, 4th paragraph 2nd line: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6., and =
configuration is The Simple Network management Protocol=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6.. And configuration is the simple network =
management protocol (SNMP)"

*	Nits are editorial or layout items. They are things that would ideally =
be resolved before publication to make the document more readable, and =
may be raised now to save the RFC Editor work.=20
*	Usually a reviewer will not be looking for this type of issue, but may =
find some in the course of their review.=20
*	Please try to avoid raising esoteric questions of English usage. The =
RFC Editor will spot these, and it is not a wise use of time to discuss =
these things.=20
*	If you find no nits, please leave this section out.=20

=20

Thanks,

Nabil


=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Nabil: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you for this review.=C2=A0 The I2RS chairs appreciate the =
careful review.=C2=A0 I think we are aligned with you that we want a =
fresh-updated draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement.=C2=A0 Alia Atlas (one =
of the co-author) and I will chat within a day or so and get back to you =
on the nits. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Sue <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Bitar, Nabil N [mailto:nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Monday, June 15, 2015 7:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement@tools.ietf.org; =
rtg-dir@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH =
A; Jonathan Hardwick; i2rs-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [RTG-DIR] =
Routing directorate review of =
draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&nbsp;Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this =
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or =
routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG =
review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is =
to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the =
Routing Directorate, please see <a =
href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir"><span =
class=3Dicon>=E2=80=8B</span>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wik=
i/RtgDir</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, =
it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Document:&nbsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-problem-statement-06.txt<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Reviewer: Nabil Bitar<br>Review Date: 6/14/2015<br>IETF LC End Date: =
Unknown<br>Intended Status: =
Informational<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Summary:</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be =
resolved before publication. The document has nits that should also be =
considered prior to =
publication.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Comments:</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>This document is intended to describe the problem that i2rs needs to =
address. The document readability can be improved =
by::<o:p></o:p></span></p><ol start=3D1 type=3D1><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>starting =
with the abstract, clearly and progressively stating what i2rs is, the =
driver for the problem to be addressed, and the objective/problem to be =
solved. Comments that address this issue are =
aprovided.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Clearly =
identifying early in the document where currently solutions that seem to =
be addressing the problem fail. This is a key component of the problem =
statement. This is currently left ambiguous to the reader untiil the =
appendix. For instance, the document may refer to the appendix early on, =
pointing the reader to gaps in existing interfaces for managing routing =
information compared to the needs. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Defining =
or referring to the definition of terminology used in the =
document<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><p><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Major Issues:</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>No major issues found<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Minor Issues:</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>1- Abstract: I suggest the addition of the following at the beginning =
of the first paragraph:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Traditionally, routing systems have implemented routing and signaling =
(e.g., multiprotcol label switch) protocols to control traffic =
forwarding in a network. Route computation has been controlled by =
relatively static policies that define link cost, route cost or import =
and export routing policies. With the advent of highly dynamic data =
center networking, on-demand WAN services, dynamic policy-driven traffic =
steering and service chaining, the need for real-time security threat =
responsiveness via traffic control, &nbsp;and the software defined =
networking paradigm, the need has emerged to &nbsp;more dynamically =
manage and program routing systems in order to control routing =
information and &nbsp;traffic paths, and to extract network topology =
information and traffic statistics, among others, from routing systems. =
As modern networks continue to grow =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6 (the rest of the =
first paragraph in the abstract.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>2-Abstract: second paragraph first sentence, suggest the following =
modification:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>In order to enable network applications to have access to and control =
over information in the internet=E2=80=99s routing system, we need a =
publicly documented interface specification. =E2=80=94&gt; In order to =
enable network applications to access and control information in a =
routing system uniformly across implementations, we need a standard =
specification for the interface to the routing system that enables such =
control.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>3- Abstract: Second paragraph, second =
sentence:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>The interface needs to support real-time, asynchronous interactions =
using data models and encodings that are efficient and potentially =
different from those available today. =E2=80=94&gt; The interface needs =
to support real-time, asynchronous interactions using efficient data =
models and &nbsp;encodings that could be potentially different from =
those already defined. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>4- Introduction, first sentence second =
line:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&nbsp;Flexible and dynamic control increases. =E2=80=94&gt; flexible, =
scalable and dynamic control =
increases.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>5- Introduction, last paragraph, second sentence on page =
3:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>This is meant to refer to an executable program of some sort that has =
access to a network, such as IP or MPLS network &nbsp;=E2=80=94&gt; This =
is meant to refer to an executable program that has direct or indirect =
access to a network, such as an IP or MPLS network, in order to control =
routing behavior or extract =
information.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>6- Section 2, 1st paragraph 1st sentence and 2nd =
sentence::<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&quot;Managing a network of production devices running a variety of =
routing protocols involves interactions between multiple components =
within a device. Some of those components are virtual while some are =
physical; it may be desirable for many, or even all of these components =
to be made available to be managed and manipulated by applications, =
given that appropriate access, authentication and policy hurdles have =
been crossed.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>I am not sure what is the significance of virtual or physical within a =
device.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Change to:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Managing a network of systems running a variety of routing protocols =
and/or providing one or more additional service (e.g., forwarding, =
classification and policing, firewalling) involves interactions among =
multiple components within these systems. Some of these systems or =
system components may be virtualized, co-locqted within the same =
physical system or distributed. In all cases, it is desirable to enable =
network applications to manage and control the services provided by =
many, if not all, of these components, subject to authenticated and =
authorized access and policies.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>7- section 2, middle of the first =
paragraph:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9Cthe management of of only some of these component requires =
(note missing =E2=80=9Cs=E2=80=9D in original text) standardization as =
others have already been =
standardized.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>While I understand the intention, this is an ambiguous general =
statement that begs the question which components require =
standardization and which ones do =
not.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>I suggest the following wording:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>The i2rs working group must identify the components that need to be =
managed via i2rs and require new a standardization =
effort.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>7- section 2, when talking about the I2RS model, I suggest that you =
refer to the terminology defined in the i2rs architecture document and =
define the new terminology otherwise. Specifically, what is anI2RS =
client, I2RS agent, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>8- section 2, the sentence before last in the first =
paragraph:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9CThe I2RS client is used and controlled by one or more network =
applications; they may be co-located or the I2RS client might be part of =
a separate application, such as orchestration or =
controller.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>This seems to imply that an orchestrator or controller is an =
application, while each could be composed of one or more applications. =
In addition, what a controller or orchestrator is not defined in this =
document either directly or by reference. I suggest the =
following:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>The I2RS client could be integrated in a network application, or =
controlled and used by by one or more separate network applications. For =
instance, an I2RS client could be provided by a network controller or a =
network orchestration system that provides a non-I2RS interface to =
network applications, and an I2rS interface to I2RS agents on the system =
being managed.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>9- Section 2 Figure 1, suggest to include in words what is within i2rs =
scope in the figure in order to make it easirer for the reader. I =
suggest the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>As depicted in Figure 1, the I2RS client and I2RS agent in a routing =
system are objects within the I2RS scope. The i2RS protocol or set of =
protocols to be defined/and or identified extend between the I2RS client =
and I2RS agent. &nbsp; All other objects and interfaces in Figure 1 are =
outside the I2RS scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>10- section 3, page 5, last sentence of the first =
paragraph:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9CIn addition, by having I2RS focus initially on interfaces to =
the RIB layer (e.g., RIBm LIB, multicast RIB, policy-based routing), the =
ability to use routing indirection allows flexibility and functionality =
that can=E2=80=99t be easily obtained at the forwarding =
layer.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make in the last =
phrase in this sentence pertaining to the forwarding plane. Can you =
please explain? I don=E2=80=99t see it as a valid statement and =
therefore why it is needed.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>11- section 3, third paragraph:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9C.. , there is need to configure the various routing and =
signaling protocols with differing dynamic state based upon =
application-level policy =
decisions.=E2=80=9D&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>You are not configuring routing and signaling protocols' dynamic =
states, you are configuring policies and values for parameters that =
effect route computation/decision or routing information that goes into =
the RIB. If you agree, can you make th corresponding =
update.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>12- section 3, third paragraph<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9CThe range desired is not available via MIB modules at the =
present=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Can you clarify what range you are referring to and subsequently any =
reference to where it is deemed that current MIBS do not not support the =
need. I am not sure though there is need to refer to current =
MIBs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>13- section 4 page 5, last sentence:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9CI2RS provides a framework =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94&gt; I2RS should provide a framework =
=E2=80=A6..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>14- section 4, page 6 1st paragraph first =
sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9C.. Still provide only the current active state as seen at the =
IGP layer and above.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>What are you defining by above in this =
context?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>15- Section 4, page 6 3rd paragraph last =
sentence:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9C.. the full range is =
not=E2=80=9D&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Can you give an example to =
illustrate?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9Cnor has there been successfully deployed the standardized =
ability to setup the router to trigger different actions upon an =
events=E2=80=99 occurrence so that a rapid reaction can be =
accomplished=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Wouldn=E2=80=99t FRR for instance be a counter example to this =
statement?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>16- Section 5, page 7,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>=E2=80=9CHigh-Throughput: At a minimum, the I2RS agent and associated =
router should be able to handle a considerable =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94&gt; High-Throuput: at a minimum, within the I2RS scope, the =
I2RS agent and I2RS client(s) should be able to handle a considerable =
=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Multi-Channel: &quot;=E2=80=A6.. Thus a single TCP session would not be =
a good match=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>This comes across as if you are already that TCP will always be the =
transport layer. I suggest the following =
change:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Nits:</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><ol start=3D1 type=3D1><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Section 8, =
security considerations: 3rd line, missing =E2=80=9C.=E2=80=9D after =
section 5.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Appendix =
A, page 9, 4th paragraph 2nd line: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6., and =
configuration is The Simple Network management Protocol=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94&gt; =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6.. And configuration is the simple =
network management protocol (SNMP)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><ul =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Nits are =
editorial or layout items. They are things that would ideally be =
resolved before publication to make the document more readable, and may =
be raised now to save the RFC Editor work. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Usually a =
reviewer will not be looking for this type of issue, but may find some =
in the course of their review. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Please try =
to avoid raising esoteric questions of English usage. The RFC Editor =
will spot these, and it is not a wise use of time to discuss these =
things. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If you =
find no nits, please leave this section out. =
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Nabil<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><h3><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></h3></div></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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I'm available to discuss my comments at any point & with anyone
(including non-authors) who may wish.

I also think there's a meta question implicit in my comments for the WG
and AD to discuss, i.e., how much protocol change does the WG/AD want to
do at this point vs just improving / fully documenting the protocol as
it now stands?  As just a reviewer, I don't expect to contribute to the
discussion on this question.

Lou

On 06/16/2015 08:53 AM, Ratliff, Stanley wrote:
> As Rick said – we will when we have a plan.
> 
>  
> 
> Stan
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*bebemaster [mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2015 7:25 AM
> *To:* Rick Taylor; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Lou Berger;
> manet-chairs@ietf.org
> *Cc:* manet-ads@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
> 
>  
> 
> It would be appropriate to have some of that discussion on the list.
> There is quite a lot of interest in this draft within the wg and getting
> input on best ways forward on the various fixes before they are written
> up should end up saving time.
> 
>  
> 
> Justin
> 
>  
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> 
> From: Rick Taylor
> 
> Date:06/16/2015 5:00 AM (GMT-05:00)
> 
> To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , Lou Berger , manet-chairs@ietf.org
> <mailto:manet-chairs@ietf.org>
> 
> Cc: manet-ads@ietf.org <mailto:manet-ads@ietf.org>, rtg-dir@ietf.org
> <mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org>, manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>,
> draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org
> <mailto:draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org>
> 
> Subject: Re: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
> 
>  
> 
> All,
> 
> Stan and I are currently discussing the review.  We will come back to
> the list with a proposed set of actions when we have a plan.
> 
> Sorry for the delay,
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
> On 15/06/15 12:16, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>> I haven't seen any discussion of this. It looks to me like requiring
> another draft for the WG to see. It does (by my rapid count) have 17
> major issues.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
>> __________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
> <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>>
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>> Sent: 08 June 2015 20:11
>> To: manet-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:manet-chairs@ietf.org>
>> Cc: manet-ads@ietf.org <mailto:manet-ads@ietf.org>; rtg-dir@ietf.org
> <mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org>; manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>;
> draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org
> <mailto:draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
>>
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>> [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.]
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
> draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
> routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG
> review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as was the
> case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
> Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
> see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>>
>> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chairs and)
> Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with
> any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve
> them through discussion or by updating the draft.
>>
>> Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
>> Reviewer: Lou Berger
>> Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comments --
> sorry) WG LC End Date: unknown Intended Status: Standards track
>>
>> Summary:
>>
>>      While I think the document is pretty decent for the scope of the
>>      work, I do have concerns about this document and recommend that the
>>      WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.
>>      I'm also available as/if needed to discuss.
>>
>> Comments:
>>
>>      I think the document shows significant good work and looks to be a
>>      useful protocol, although I'm not overly familiar in this space.
>>      That said, I have a number of serious concerns about the document,
>>      and its contents from a few of perspectives.  These include basic
>>      protocol issues, underspecified details  (which could lead to
>>      interoperability issues), and specification/editorial issues. I
>>      think the document / protocol can be modified to address the issues
>>      I raise below.  Of course, it is up to the WG, chairs, and ADs to
>>      decide which comments to address and which to  ignore.
>>      I don't expect that all comments will result in changes.
>>
>> Major Issues:
>>
>>      - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8
>>        bits.  While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measure,
>>        which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for
>>        larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. --
>>        We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain.
>>
>>      - Version number is currently defined as a data item.  This means a
>>        signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to
>>        discover what version is being used.  This precludes basic format
>>        changes to the protocol.  Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals
>>        should be special cased to include version in their formats.  (And
>>        shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below).
>>
>>      - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and
>>        'discovery' states.  These either need to be formally defined or
>>        removed.  BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) and
>>        ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of the
>>        process.
>>
>>      - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship
>>        with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined.  For example:
>>
>>        o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in a
>>          way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior
>>          (close TCP before ACK is received).
>>
>>        o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP
>>          session be reused or must it be closed too?
>>
>>      - There is no transaction model defined.  For example, it's
>>        completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at a
>>        time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps
>>        there are no restrictions.  This needs to be explicit.
>>
>>      - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP?  Retries
>>        aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being used.
>>
>>      - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really
>>        clear.  It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliable
>>        transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. Of
>>        course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others
>>        should be clear.  For example, in section 7.10, why would there be
>>        a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an
>>        error?
>>
>>      - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there really
>>        none?  For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limit
>>        Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle
>>        the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go
>>        down.
>>
>>      - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to
>>        define their own 'heuristics'.  Some of these seem unnecessary due
>>        to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protocol
>>        should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent
>>        behavior from implementations.
>>
>>      - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental
>>        Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8).  Both seem to support for
>>        optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values,
>>        why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.
>>        o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between
>>          these?
>>        o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized?
>>
>>      - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items.  The
>>        definition related to these basically says a resources is "An
>>        8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of
>>        resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.".  If I were
>>        implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce,
>>        update or use this information.  I think there is some missing
>>        informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these
>>        formats.
>>
>>      - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar
>>        problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if
>>        there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link quality
>>        that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is just
>>        passed for as monitoring information.  Either way, this needs to
>>        be clarified.
>>
>>      - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the one
>>        documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged,
>>        but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of
>>        credits relative to the data plane.
>>
>>      - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
>>        optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
>>        allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
>>        issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.
>>
>>      - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirements
>>        on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no
>>        ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within
>>        Signals.
>>
>>      - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a
>>        signal isn't always clear.  For example are 0/1/N copies of a
>>        particular Data Item required/allowed.  Using something like ABNF
>>        would really help formalize and clarify this.
>>
>>      - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrative
>>        text, normative / required processing procedures, and message
>>        formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it just
>>        makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol.
>>        What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate
>>        (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for
>>        omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error
>>        processing).  Specific examples are included above and below.  It
>>        would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior is
>>        defined just once and in a consistent way.
>>
>>      - The security consideration section is inadequate.  This section
>>        should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user
>>        traffic.  It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possible
>>        exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol.  rfc6952,
>>        and the protocols it references can serve as examples.
>>
>> Minor Issues:
>>
>>      - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits.  This seems
>>        pretty small, particularly the data type field.  Given this is a
>>        control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field
>>        would provide better "future proofing".
>>
>>      - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1).  This seems a
>>        bit excessive.  I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself.
>>
>>      - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to have a
>>        generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mention
>>        this here as this may come up again when clarifying the
>>        transaction model (as mentioned above.)
>>
>>      - Section 2: Assumptions
>>        This section includes informative and normative text so is more
>>        than just Assumptions.  Personally, I'd remove all normative text
>>        from the section.
>>
>>      - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation.
>>
>>      - Sections 8.10->8.17.  Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnets
>>        in destination update signals?
>>
>>      - The IANA Considerations sections must follow​ RFC2360.
>>
>>      - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in
>>        the document.  (The document currently has many TBDs that should
>>        be replaced.)
>>
>>      - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.:
>>      The registry should be established with registration policies of
>>      "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and
>>      “Specification Required" (for other documents). The designated
>>      expert is any current <fill-in> WG chair.
>>
>> Nits:
>>
>>      - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for
>>        what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in
>>        other protocols.  It's probably too late to change this, but I
>>        think the introduction of unique terminology is counter
>>        productive.
>>
>>      - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there are
>>        words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look at
>>        http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some
>>        suggestions.
>>
>>      - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times.  It
>>        really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the wire.
>>
>>      - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably octets)
>>
>>      - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add value,
>>        suggest dropping them.
>>
>>      - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent?
>>
>>      - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable length
>>        field.
>>
>>      - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable length
>>        field.
>>
>> That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anything.  Look
> forward to hearing response to the above (and how I got things
> hopelessly wrong ;-)
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>
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From nobody Tue Jun 16 07:14:18 2015
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From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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On 6/16/15, 10:51 AM, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

Lou:  thanks for the review!

>I also think there's a meta question implicit in my comments for the WG
>and AD to discuss, i.e., how much protocol change does the WG/AD want to
>do at this point vs just improving / fully documenting the protocol as
>it now stands?

WG:  Lou is absolutely right!  He points out good improvement
recommendations based on his experience, but we clearly need to balance
the changes against the existing implementations and their impact on them.
 As a point of reference to adopt (or not) some of Lou=B9s comments, I
suggest that the authors add an =B3Implementation Status=B2 section (rfc698=
2).

Thanks!

Alvaro.


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From: Thomas Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-05.txt
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Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. =
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-05.txt
Reviewer: Thomas Heide Clausen
Review Date: June 16, 2015
IETF LC End Date: <Reviewed during (just after - apologies) WGLC>

Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary:=20

	o	I have significant concerns about this document and =
recommend that the
		Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the =
authors.

Comments:

	o	Is there any good reason why the authors have no listed =
affiliation?
=09
	o	It is somewhat contradictory that the abstract talks =
about=20
		"...describes a protocol" and then later "...leaves some =
details
		 to be specified in profiles, which define actual =
implementable DNCP
		 based protocols"
		=20
		 Does that not mean, then, that this document specifies =
an algorithm,
		 a framework, and not a protocol?

	o	On that, I see "DNCP protocol" several places. Expanded, =
that becomes
		"Dynamic Network Configuration Protocol Protocol" ...
	=09
	o	In general, and despite actually knowing some of the =
core algorithms
		somewhat before this review, I found the document really =
tough to
		read, with convoluted sentences, inconsistent =
requirements-language,
		and a lack of introductory "here's the 1000ft view of =
the protocol,
		what it does, how it works, and under which conditions =
it works".
	=09
	o	On that, I do not find the chosen structure of the =
document to be
		optimal for conveying an unambiguous protocol =
specification. For one,
		the same concepts are occasionally described slightly =
differently.
		For another, it is often hard to find the information =
needed to
		parse a specific mandated processing (for example). I =
provide an
		example of what I would suggest a better structure in =
the below.=20
		=09
		The goal is to provide first concepts and an overview, =
followed by a
		single, easy to identify place for "precise and =
unambiguous definitions
		of concepts", and then use those in the detailed =
expression of the
		protocol. Note that this is just an example, of course:
			=09
			Section "Terminology:"
				The Network State Hash is a hash value =
which represents the
				current state of the network, as known =
by a node.
			=09
			Section "Protocol Overview and Functioning"
		=09
				When receiving a FOO TLV, the DNCP node =
compares the received
				Network State Hash with its own Network =
State Hash. This
				represents the consistency check rom =
RFC6206. If same,
				then...if not, then ....
			=09
			Section "Protocol Information Bases"
				For the purpose of this specification, =
the Protocol
				Information Bases are orgnaized as sets =
of tuples ... any
					implementation can chose =
whatever representation it wants.
			=09
					The Network State Information =
Base in a DNCP node is a set
					of tuples:
						(x, y, z, w)
				=09
					where x is ..., y is ..., z is =
..., and w is ...
				=09
			Section "How to calculate the Network State =
Hash":
				=20
				 The network State Hash is calculated =
using the information
				 from the Network State Information =
Base, as follows:
				=20
					 	1. First, the tuples in =
that information base are sorted
				 		   in ascending order =
based on ....
				 	  =20
					 	2. Second, .... =
(concatenation)
				 =09
					 	3. Third, the hash =
function from <profile> is used
				 =09
					 	4. Fourth, the first n =
bits of the resulting hash value,=20
					 	   are retained, witn n =
being from <profile>.

			And then, in remaining sections simply reference =
the Network
			State Hash, which is now ubiquitously defined in =
a single place.
		=09
			I am taking this example, since when reading =
section 5.3 I found=20
			myself chasing through the document, finding =
multiple slightly
			different definitions of "Network State Hash" -- =
 but beyond this
			example, it generally does apply to the document =
as a whole, and
			certainly to all of the processing and =
generation considerations in
			section 5.
=09
	o	As a general comment, the document would do well with a =
good editorial
		overhaul to bring consistency in language usage, =
consistency in 2119
		terminology, coherence in defined terms and their =
definition, document
		structure, etc.
	=09
Major Issues:
=09
	o	The introduction does not read well; it contains parts =
of something that
	 	could be considered as part of an applicability =
statement (without it
	 	being called out as such, and without forming a complete =
applicability
		statement), and does not actually introduce the =
protocol. Reading just=20
		the introduction and the abstract, it is very obscure if
		this is a framework, a protocol, a building block, an =
architecture, an
		algorithm -- and, if either of those, what it is =
actually accomplishing,
		and why one would chose to use DNCP. It does, however, =
transpire that
		"whatever it is", it has two "modes" and that it =
requires something
		(presumably a routing protocol) to provide each "node" =
with a topology
		map.
	=09
		Suggest that a proper introduction consisting of three =
parts would be
		beneficial: (i) what this document is, (ii) what doing =
DNCP actually
		gets you, and (iii) the operating conditions under which =
the
		DNCP is applicable.
	=09
		On the latter point, given that you state that DNCP =
requires profiles
		to provide "actual implementable DNCP based protocols", =
it appears
		important to understand what the limits for "what a =
profile can give=20
		you" are.
	=09
		I am calling this out as a major issue, since I believe =
that it is
		not just editorial, but is a matter of scoping this =
document correctly,
		and in particular not falling into the trap of "claiming =
applicability
		where it's not".

	o	The document, in my understanding, defines an exchange =
format with
		limited ability to evolve, as simply "a steam of TLVs".

		As long as there's never a need to evolve the TLV format =
itself, and
		as long as you do not run out of TLV types, that's not =
going to be
		a problem. The doc sets aside a 16bit TLV type space, =
that's reasonable
		enough, but I worry if eventually a DNCPv2 will need to =
evolve the=20
		format. One purely hypothetical example could be if a =
"sequence number"
		would be needed in each DNCP message to detect "link =
success rates", or
		something of that sort. =20
	=09
		I do not have an actual example in mind -- and that's =
exactly the point:
		to be evolutive for the unknown future and (at the very =
least) be able
		to discriminate between "old" and "new".
	=09
		A discussion could be had if a "version number" in each =
TLV would do,
		or if a concept of "protocol message with a version =
number" is
		preferential. I do not believe, however, that "no =
version number" is
		viable.

	o	Noting that the "overhearing n reduncant transmissions" =
is a key=20
		retransmission suppression mechanism in Trickle, and =
that this
		seems to assume broad/multicast, using unicast seems to =
contradict
		the statement of "consists of Trickle", at least in the =
way the
		algorithm is defined in RFC6206. Note: it's fine to use =
an algorithm
		outside of its initial scope, but it should be with the =
caveat of
		"which of the characteristics still hold, and which do =
not"

	o	DNCP claims to be trickle based, yet supports unicast. =
It also
		(apparently) is a request/reply protocol.  It doesn't =
have messages.
		This document needs a good, and pedagogical, "protocol =
overview and
		functioning" section somewhere: one needs to get through =
the end of
		Section 5 before having even a vague idea of how DNCP =
works.
	=09
	o	The use of normative language is not as tight as could =
be desired.
		For example, a number of SHOULDs seem to really ought to =
be "MAYs" since=20
		not following the SHOULD won't break the algorithm. It =
would be good=20
		to walk through the document and take a careful look at =
these to
		either MUST/MAY the SHOULDs, or to qualify the SHOULDs =
remaining.
	=09
	o	I am going to go out on a limb here, and say that "the =
protocol is
		underspecified". That's a deliberately provocative =
statement, but it
		was honestly how I felt upon having completed the =
review.=20
	=09
		The document does not help the reader get an intuitive =
understanding
		of the protocol functioning, but jumps right into minute =
details --
		requiring the reader to "build up her or his own model =
of how DNCP
		works". On having read the document a few times, I think =
that I=20
		understand it -- but there's nothing permitting me to =
verify my
		understanding, and thereby I'd not feel confident to be =
able to
		provide an interoperable and independent implementation. =
I've given
		some comments in the "Comments" section as to what I =
think would be
		viable ways to improve this point.

	 o	Section 5.3, penultimate paragraph:
	=20
	 		"If keep-alives specified in Section 6.1 are NOT =
sent by the peer
		     (either the DNCP profile does not specify the use =
of keep-alives or
		     the particular peer chooses not to send =
keep-alives), some other
		     means MUST be employed to ensure its presence.  =
When the peer is no
		     longer present, the Neighbor TLV and the local DNCP =
peer state MUST
		     be removed."
		    =20
		"...some other means MUST be employed to ensure its =
presence." --
		followed by more MUST verage when a peer disappears...I =
am not sure that
		that's conductive to interoperable implementations.
	=09
		Two implementatons may chose different "means" and then =
turn off keep-
		alives - and be non-interoperable.
	=09
		For interoperability, we need:
	=09
				o	A mandatory to implement =
mechanism, that always is
					present, but can be complemented =
by another "means", or
				=09
				o	A mandatory to implement =
mechanism, which by way of a
					specified negotiation mechanism =
can be turned off between
					two peers, to allow them to use =
another "means".
				=09
		If you argument is "...this will be specified in the =
profile", then
		you still should provide the two above in this document, =
with the note
		that "...and a profile may specify which from among =
these MUST be
		used in a given deployment"

	o	Section 8:
		Interesting; I am not a security expert, but I am very =
curious to
		see the SEC-DIR review of this document. That said, =
section 8.3.1=20
		contains normative verbage:
	=09
			"A node MUST be trusted for participating in the =
DNCP network if and
			only if..."
		=09
		Which I think needs a qualifier of the "If the =
certificate based
		trust model is used, then a node must be trusted for =
...."
=09
		Same goes for the subsequent SHOULD - it really reads =
as-if this
		certificate based mechanism initially was intended as =
MTI, but then
		was backed away from subsequently without a complete =
cleanup of the
		text?
	=09
		I do actually question the value of having a =
laundry-list of trust=20
		management methods, and for one of those (certs) a =
laundry-list
		of all sorts of trust relationship establishment =
methods, in this
		document; this in no small part as the lists are =
explicitly indicated
		as "non-exhaustive" and that none are listed as =
"mandatory to
		implement". Was any thought given to factoring this into =
a seperate
		document, and focusing in this document on one, =
mandatory-to-implement,
		security mechanism?
	=09
Minor Issues:

	Introduction:
		o	1st paragraph: "reachable nodes"; two things:
	=09
				-	I always have a problem with the =
term "node"; it is often
					used as a shorthand for "routers =
and hosts, both". I was
					given to understand that homenet =
specifically did not want
					to consider host changes?
				=09
				-	"Reachable" - does that mean =
something as in "radio range",
					does it mean "on the same link", =
does it mean within a
					specific (DNCP?) domain, or does =
it mean simply "on the
					Internet somewhere"?
				=09
		o	2nd paragraph: "nodes that are currently =
accounted for":
				-	What does that mean?
			=09
				-	Also, the conclusion "Therefore =
unlike Time-To-Live (TTL) =09
					based solutions, it does not =
require periodic re-publishing
					of the data by the nodes" does =
actually not follow from
					the previous sentence in that =
paragraph.

				-	I actually do not think that the =
introduction describes
					what DNCP does, and so the =
comparison to TTL-based=20
					solutions is rather hard to get =
here.
				=09
				-	Continuing:
			=09
						"On the other hand, it =
does require the topology
						to be visible to every =
node that wants to be able to
						identify unreachable =
nodes and therefore remove old,
						stale data."
					=09
					This reads a lot more like an =
applicability statement than
					an introduction; the take-away =
when reading this is:
				=09
						"Each node must have =
something that maintains
						 a topology map of the =
entire network, such as=20
						 a (LS) routing =
protocol, for DNCP to function"
						=20
					Is that actually the intent =
here?
				=09
				-	"DNCP is most suitable for data =
that changes only gradually"
					How is the reader to interpret =
"gradually"? Do you mean
					"infrequently", or do you really =
mean "gradualy"?
				=09
		o Last paragraph:
				"DNCP has relatively few requirements =
for the underlying
				 transport; it requires some way of =
transmitting either unicast
				 datagram or stream data to a peer"
		=09
			This is a bit of a forward comment, but we now =
have "nodes
			that are accounted for" and "peers". I see =
neither defined in
			the terminology section.
			=09
				"and, if used in multicast mode, a way =
of
				 sending multicast datagrams."
		=09
			This is the first mention of two "modes" of this =
protocol. This
			loops back to an earlier comment, that the =
introduction actually
			does not introduce the protocol, but rather is =
an incomplete
			applicability statement.
			=09
				"If security is desired and one of the
 	 			 built-in security methods is to be =
used, support for some
				TLS-derived transport scheme - such as =
TLS [RFC5246] on top of
				TCP or DTLS [RFC6347] on top of UDP - is =
also required."
  =20
   			I am not pretending to be a security expert, but =
"some
   			TLS-derived...such as ... on top of TCP or =
DTLS..." (i) does not
   			sound like it could lead to interoperable =
implementations, and (ii)
   			does not sound sufficiently tight as a MTI =
security mechanism to
   			pass security reviews. Again, I am no security =
expert, but perhaps
   			getting one looped in early would be advicable?
		=09
	Terminology:
		o	Suggest adding "In this document ..." somewhere =
to this text:

				"For readability, any DNCP profile =
specific
				 parameters with a profile-specific =
fixed value are
				 prefixed with DNCP_."
				=20
		o	DNCP network: I read this twice, and came away =
with two different
			understandings, perhaps you can clarify which it =
is:

				o	A set of nodes running DNCP, =
within the same domain, and
					for which a path betwen any two =
DNCP nodes includes only
					other DNCP nodes; i.e., a DNCP =
network forms a connected
					component with only other DNCP =
nodes.
				=09
				o	A set of nodes running DNCP. =
They may be anywhere on the
					Internet, they are part of the =
same DNCP network as long
					as they (through other means) =
have learned of each others
					addresses.
				=09
			In the former, that'd be (for example) a =
deployment within my
			home -- in the latter, it could be a node in my =
home and a node in
			your home forming a DNCP network.=20
		=09
			The text is not quite clear on this point.
=09
		o	Link: a point of clarification here. In "DNCP =
network", there was
			talk about "unidirectional links" and =
"bidirectional links"; in
			"Link" the definition is somewhat vague =
"directly connected" and=20
			"can communicate". Could something like "without =
decrementing TTL/
			hop-count" be added, and could a statement on =
bidirectionality=20
			(IOW, that this is just an IP link) be added?
		=09
		=09
		o	"Interface" is overloading the term "port" (IP =
port) which can be
			confusing
		=09
		o	"Endpoint" - The definition "locally configured =
use of DNCP" is not
			clear -- are you really not talking about a DNCP =
process?=20
		=09
			I am not sure that it is clear how a DNCP =
process can be "attached
			to  ... a specific remote unicast address, or to =
a range of unicast
			addresses that are allowed to contact"

			I can see how a DNCP process can be configured =
to allow connections=20
			from a specific range of addresses, or can be =
configured to connect
			to a specific remote unicast address. Is that =
what you mean instead?
		=09
		=09
		o	"Peer" - states that two peers "communicate =
directly". For link,
			the definition is "directly connected nodes can =
communicate".
			Would it then not be easier to say "a DNCP node =
on the same link=20
			as ..." ?
	=09
		o	"Node state"
				"The hash function and the number of =
bits used are defined=20
				 in the DNCP profile."
				=20
			Suggest:
				"The hash function and the length of the =
hash value are defined=20
				 in the DNCP profile."
		=09
		=09
		o	"Network state hash" - same comment as for node =
state (above)
	=09
	Data model:
		o	"Latest update sequence number"
			This may just be my personal taste, but does it =
hurt to mandate
			a specific way of doing the looping comparison? =
The reason I=20
			suggest this is, that it's one of those things =
where creativity
			in an implementation seems to simply be an =
invitation for bugs,
			and for little gain
		=09
		o	"Relative time delta"
			Document talks about "a 32 bit number on the =
wire" -- does that
			mean that wireless links are excluded?
		=09
		o	Related to terminology, there seems to be some =
fuzzyness around
			node and endpoint. For example, in data model =
one of the things that
			a DNCP node may have is:

				"Unicast address: the DNCP node it =
should connect with"
		=09
			Does that mean *any* DNCP process (i.e., *any* =
endpoint) at that
			address, or a *specific* DNCP process at that =
address?
		=09
			The same, but inverse, for "Range of addresses: =
the DNCP nodes that
			are allowed to connect" - is this "any DHCP =
process (i.e., *any*
			endpoint) on any of these addresses?
		=09
			Following, the same section reads:

				"For each remote (peer, endpoint) pair =
detected on a local
				endpoint, a DNCP node has..."
	=09
			the following text indicating that there's some =
sort of distinction
			between which endpoint.
		=09
			This whole thing needs some clarification.		=
=09
	=09
	Operation
	=09
		o	First a generic comment that Trickle itself has =
some operating
			conditions which scopes its applicability, and =
it would behove
			this document to, in its own applicability =
statement, call out
			those.
		=09
		o	On the same token, while the use of Trickle in =
an unicast fashion
			is possible, I wonder if (in general) unicast =
use is advicable. I
			appreciate that some links are point-to-point =
and so a broadcast=20
			across it becomes an unicast -- but, does that =
necessitate being
			called out?
		=09
			IF the reason for this "because we can use TCP", =
then be explicit
			about this - but, also, that you're then not =
exactly using Trickle
			where and how it was intended. I wonder if you =
could be explicit=20
			as to what consequences this "alternate use of =
Trickle" have? It
			seems that the use of unicast is directly =
contradicting the main
			operating consideration of Trickle?
		=09
		o	2nd paragraph states:=20
	=09
				"the multicast transport does not have =
to be particularly
				 secure"
	=09
			What is the definition of "not have to be =
particularly secure"?
			Is cleartext OK? Authentication? Encryption?
			Should I do something more?
		=09
	5.1 Trickle-driven status updates
		o 	First paragraph:
	=09
				"Multicast MUST be employed on a =
multicast-capable interface;
				 otherwise, unicast can be used as well"
			=20
			If the interface is not multicast-capable, then =
unicast can be
			used as well as what? Certainly not multicast, =
since the interface
			is not multicast capable...?
		=09
		o	Continuing:
	=09
				"If possible, most recent,"
		=09
			What would make it "not possible"?
			=09
   				"recently changed, or best of all, all =
known Node State TLVs"
   		=09
   			OK, so assuming that for some reason (MTU =
limitation) it is not
   			possible, does the above represent an order that =
I MUST respect,
   			or is it "take a pick from among these, =
according to your whim of
   			the day"?
=20
 				"(Section 7.2.3) SHOULD be also =
included,"
 			=09
 			SHOULD is a strong statement, especially when =
prefixed by=20
 			"if possible". That, essentially, renders it a =
MAY.
 		=09
 				"unless it is defined as undesirable for =
some reason=20
 				 by the DNCP profile
		=09
			Now it DEFINITELY is a MAY since apparently a =
profile can state
			that these TLVs MUST NOT be included -- and, I =
assume, since the
			document permits it to do so, it is possible =
without breaking the
			algorithm.
		=09
		o	And, continuing again:
	=09
				"If the
   				 DNCP profile supports dense broadcast =
link optimization
				 (Section 6.2), and if a node does not =
have the highest node
				 identifier on a link, the endpoint may =
be in a unicast mode in
				 which multicast traffic is only =
listened to.  In that mode,
				 multicast updates MUST NOT be sent."

			Really hard to parse. Is that not equivalent to =
saying:
		=09
				"If a DNCP endpoint is not configured to =
be in multicast
				  mode, then it MUST NOT send multicast =
updates"
				 =20
			?
		=09
			If it is, then say that -- if it is not, then a =
rewrite is needed,
			as that's what I manage to extract from the =
text.

=09
	5.2.  Processing of Received TLVs
		o	First paragraph reads:
	=09
				"The DNCP profile may specify criteria =
based on which particular=20
				 TLVs are ignored."
		=09
			Criteria for what? Do you perhaps mean:
		=09
				"The DNCP profile may specify which TLVs =
to process, and=20
				 which to ignore"?
		=09
			Auxiliary question, then, and related to my =
penultimate comment=20
			to 5.1, are there any constraints on that, any =
risks from ignoring
			(or not) specific TLVs to the operation of the =
network?
		=09
		o	I am also confused by the 3rd sentence in the =
first paragraph:
	=09
				"Any =E2=80=99reply=E2=80=99 mentioned =
in the steps below denotes sending of
			 	 the specified TLV(s) via unicast to the =
originator of the TLV
			 	 being processed."
			 	=20
			 This confusion is likely due to the lack of a =
"protocol overview=20
			 and functioning" description [either as its own =
section, or as part
			 of the introduction].
			=20
			 I know how trickle works. Trickle is a =
distributed consistency
			 algorithm. When an inconsistency is detected, =
then an action is
			 triggered that rectifies that inconsistency.  =
DNCP claims to be trickle based, but apparently also a sort of =
request/reply=20
			 mechanism. Combined with =
trickle-over-unicast-links, I am not sure
			 what the protocol logic actually is. Reading =
through to the end of
			 Section 5, I think that I understand the idea, =
but I am not sure.
			=20
			 And the old "when in doubt, look at the state =
machines" didn't help
			 either, there aren't any.=20
			=20
			 The point to this comment is, that the document =
immediately jumps
			 into the details -- but forgets to give the =
"10000ft view" of the
			 protocol functioning.
			=20
		o	First paragraph states two SHOULD. Would those =
not be MUST? What
			breaks if not respecting those criteria?
		=09
		o	2nd paragraph, a "valid address", that =
definition is rather unclear.
			I understand that that's something specified in =
"the profile", but
			what is the relationship to the different =
addresses discussed in
			the data model section?
		=09
			It is not clear what the parenthesis to this =
paragraph means,=20
			but that is probably again a case of the "use =
case" and "protocol
			overview" not being documented - the document so =
far has nowhere=20
			described interaction with outside processes.
	=09
		o	First bullet, but generally through these, and =
other, bullets:
	=09
			I had a really hard time deciphering this. =
First:
		=09
				"The receiver MUST reply
		         with a Network State TLV (Section 7.2.2) and a =
Node State TLV
		         (Section 7.2.3) for each node data used to =
calculate the
		         network state hash"
		   =20
		    Alright, off to find "network state hash".
		   =20
		    The terminology tells me that it is:
		   =20
		    	"a hash value which represents the current state =
of
  				 the network.  The hash function and the =
number of
                 bits used are defined in the DNCP profile.
                 Whenever a node is added, removed or updates its
                 published node data this hash value changes as
                 well. It is calculated over each reachable nodes'
                 update number concatenated with the hash value of
                 its node data. For calculation these tuples are
                 sorted in ascending order of the respective node's
                 node identifier.

		    Searching further, I find Section 5.1, but that =
simply states:
		   =20
		    	"The Trickle state for all endpoints is
			     considered inconsistent and reset if and =
only if the locally
			     calculated network state hash changes."

			Next occurence is in these bullets, and then =
just before Section 6,
		=09
				"During
			     the grace period, the nodes that were not =
marked reachable=20
			     in the most recent graph traversal MUST NOT =
be used for
			     calculation of the network state hash, be =
provided to any
			     applications that need to use the whole TLV =
graph, or be
			     provided to remote nodes."
			    =20
			Alright, now I know what I can't use for =
calculating it.
		=09
			A few occurences later, in section 7.2.2, in =
what looks like a
			section laying out the packet -- sorry, TLV -- =
format, I see for=20
			"Network State TLV":
		=09
				"This TLV contains the current locally =
calculated network state
				hash. It is calculated over each =
reachable nodes' update number
   				concatenated with the hash value of its =
node data in ascending
   				order of the respective node =
identifiers"
   			=09
			Phew. Now, it does seem a little at odds with =
the terminology. The
			terminology states something about tuples that =
are ordered. While
			those tuples are not defined (they should be), =
at least what is
			described is clear and possibly can be =
implemented. What is in 7.2.2
			is not ant cannot.
		=09
			This is an instance of a general issue that I =
have with this
			document: that it doesn't take a step back, and =
properly define
			things in a proper order, but dives into (and =
repeats) details.
		=09
		=09
		o	Also to section 5.2, for each of the cases that =
are described, could
			a conceptual description of "what this =
corresponds to" be added? For
			example:
	=09
				Upon reciept of a Node State TLV:
					If the node identifier matches =
the local node identifier and
					the TLV has a higher update =
sequence number than its current
    	     		local value, or the same update sequence number =
and a=20
    	     		different hash, the node SHOULD re-publish its =
own node data
    	     		with an update sequence number 1000 higher than =
the received
    	     		one.
		=09
		 	It's not clear why it is a "SHOULD re-publish" =
(not MUST, nor what
		 	happens if SHOULD is not followed). And it is =
not clear why 1000 ...
		=09
			[I just pick this example, but it applies to all =
processing bullets]
		=09
	o	In the same cases, it is a lot more readable (IMO) to do =
nested bullets:
=09
		o	If FOO; and either of:	=09
	 			- BAR
	 			- GNYF
	 			- BLAB
	 		Then do all of the following:
	 			- ...
	 			- ...
	 			- ...
	 	o 	Otherwise, if not-FOO, ...
	 =09
	 	That's a personal preference, though, so feel free to =
disregard this
	 	comment.
	 	=09
	 o	Section 5.3 and elsewhere, suggest replacing:
	=20
	 		"If it comes via..."
	 =09
	 	by:
	 =09
	 		"If received over ..."
	 =09
	=09
	o	Last paragraph in 5.3:
			Same comment as 3rd comment to 5.1 made above.
	=09
	o 	Section 5.4, first sentence:
			"DNCP validates the set of data within it ..."
		=09
		Should that not be:
			"A DNCP instance validates the data within its =
data sets ..."
	=09
		?

		Also, "nodes that are currently accounted for; what's =
the definition
		of "accounted for"?
	=09
	o	Section 5.4, first paragraph
		The statement:
	=09
			"therefore,
   			 unlike Time-To-Live (TTL) based solutions, it =
does not require
		     periodic re-publishing of the data by the nodes.  =
On the other
		     hand, it does require the topology to be visible to =
every node that
		     wants to be able to identify unreachable nodes and =
therefore remove
		     old, stale data."
		    =20
		which also appeared in the introduction, is copied =
verbatimly. Once
		more, the statement is a claim which is not supported, =
and that which
		follows "therefore" is not a consequence of that which =
comes before
		"therefore".
=09
	o	Section 5.4, first paragraph
=09
			"When a Neighbor TLV or a whole node is added or =
removed, the
			neighbor graph SHOULD be traversed, starting =
from the local node.
			The edges to be traversed are identified by =
looking for Neighbor
			TLVs on both nodes, that have the other node=E2=80=
=99s identifier in the
			neighbor node identifier, and local and neighbor =
endpoint
			identifiers swapped. Each node reached should be =
marked currently
			reachable."
		=09
		First comment, why SHOULD and not MUST?
	=09
		Second comment, and now you made me go =
look...."neighbor" sounds like
		"someone on the same link as me" so  the "neighbor =
graph" is really just
		a set relating "this node" and "another node which is on =
the same link
		as this node".
=09
		Yet, looking in the terminology, I see "Neighbor graph" =
defined as:
				"the undirected graph of DNCP nodes =
produced by
                 retaining only bidirectional peer relationships
                 between nodes.
	=09
		Which doesn't sound as much like a "neighbor graph" as =
it does a
		"topology graph" for the whole network.
	=09
		So, is the terminology wrong, or is the definition =
wrong?
	=09
	o	Section 5.4, 3rd paragraph
	=09
		Is it actually important that the content of that graph =
be "purged"?
		That sounds like an implementation detail -- rather, it =
sounds like
		the elements of the graph should "not be used for =
calculations and
		MAY be removed". Or, is there a specific requirement =
that I am
		missing?
	=09
	o	Section 6.1, I do not understand the parenthesis in this =
sentence:
=09
			Trickle-driven status updates (Section 5.1) =
provide a mechanism for
			handling of new peer detection (if applicable) =
on an endpoint
	=09
		Under what conditions is that applicable, and under =
which is it not?
=09
	o	Section 6.2:
=09
			"An upper bound for the number of neighbors that =
are allowed for a
   			 (particular type of) link that an endpoint runs =
on SHOULD be
   			 provided by a DNCP profile, user configuration, =
or some hardcoded
   			 default in the implementation."
   			=20
   		A couple of things to that:
   			1)	Can you explain the parenthesis? What =
type of link?
   			2)	How does "an endpoint runs on" a link?
   			3)	Why SHOULD?
   			4)	Is this specification seriously =
suggesting "some hardcoded
   				default in the implementation" as a =
SHOULD?

		[I am tempted to upgrade this to a "Major issue" simply =
because of 4) ]   	=09
	=09
	=09
		Also to 6.2, this particular optimization, do you have =
any
		quantification of its actual benefit? What should I look =
for to
		determine if this "optimization" yields a benefit or =
not? What are
		you trying to optimize? Over what link types does this =
function?
		I am dubious that it "optimizes" much, if anything, =
across an Ethernet, for example ...
	=09
	o	Section 7
		As indicated previously, having to search through the =
frame format
		diagrams for "how to calculate the value" isn't ideal.
	=09
	o	Section 7.2.3, I worry when I see something like this:
=09
			"The whole network should have roughly the same =
idea about the time
			 since origination of any particular published =
state."
		=09
		What is the definition of "roughly"?
		Is the "should" intentionally in non-caps?
		What're the consequences if not?
		[Note that trickle almost mechanically makes information =
propagate=20
		with non-trivial jitter across a network, so how do you =
ensure this?]
	=09
	o	Section 7.2.4, CUSTOM-DATA TLV.
=09
		Given the description:
			"This TLV can be used to contain anything; the =
URI used should be
			 under control of the author of that =
specification."
	=09
		It seems that (i) the description is self-contradictory: =
it cannot=20
		contain *anything* but can contain an URI?
	=09
		Secondly, how is this supposed to work, what does it =
mean [for DNCP]
		that "the URI is under control of the author"?
	=09
		Thirdly, what does "that specification" refer to?
	=09
		Fourthly, why lower-case should? Indeed, why is the =
"control" of the
		URI of any importance to DNCP?

	o	Section 9, the bullet:
=09
			"When receiving messages, what sort of messages =
are dropped, as
			specified in Section 5.2"
	=09
		Seems at odds with Section 5.2, which discusses TLV =
processing.
	=09

Nits:
   	=09
	Requirement Language:
		o	Please reflect Errata 499 for RFC2119 in the =
boilerplate
	=09
		o	The RFC2119 boilerplate could conveniently be in =
the terminology
			section, given that it is terminology.
		=09=


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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: bebemaster <bebemaster@gmail.com>, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "manet-chairs@ietf.org" <manet-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:53:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet]   RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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I think from Stan and my perspective:=0A=
=0A=
1) Suggested text changes and improvements will be addressed.=0A=
=0A=
2) Minor protocol changes, such as changing bit lengths of version =0A=
numbers may be addressed.=0A=
=0A=
3) Major protocol changes, such as a single ACK signal for all signals, =0A=
will not be addressed, (that particular example had already been =0A=
discussed at length and the current way of working is preferred)=0A=
=0A=
Some comments are based on a misreading of the text, which we take as an =
=0A=
indication that the missed point was not described clearly enough.=0A=
=0A=
For the IANA topics, I call on Stan's superior knowledge for guidance.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
(Bit rushed off my feet at the moment, but I will reply to the list with =
=0A=
a full breakdown ASAP)=0A=
=0A=
On 16/06/15 15:14, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote:=0A=
> On 6/16/15, 10:51 AM, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net> wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> Lou:  thanks for the review!=0A=
>=0A=
>> I also think there's a meta question implicit in my comments for the WG=
=0A=
>> and AD to discuss, i.e., how much protocol change does the WG/AD want to=
=0A=
>> do at this point vs just improving / fully documenting the protocol as=
=0A=
>> it now stands?=0A=
>=0A=
> WG:  Lou is absolutely right!  He points out good improvement=0A=
> recommendations based on his experience, but we clearly need to balance=
=0A=
> the changes against the existing implementations and their impact on them=
.=0A=
>   As a point of reference to adopt (or not) some of Lou=B9s comments, I=
=0A=
> suggest that the authors add an =B3Implementation Status=B2 section (rfc6=
982).=0A=
>=0A=
> Thanks!=0A=
>=0A=
> Alvaro.=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> manet mailing list=0A=
> manet@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


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From: Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net>
To: Thomas Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [homenet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-05.txt
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Thomas,

Thank you for such an exhaustive and thorough review!

We will certainly ask the WG and authors to consider these in a new
revision to be published before IETF LC officially begins (though
technically that's Terry's call at this stage).

- Mark


On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Thomas Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
> drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes
> on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to
> the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, plea=
se
> see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las=
t
> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
> discussion or by updating the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-05.txt
> Reviewer: Thomas Heide Clausen
> Review Date: June 16, 2015
> IETF LC End Date: <Reviewed during (just after - apologies) WGLC>
>
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>
> Summary:
>
>         o       I have significant concerns about this document and
> recommend that the
>                 Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors=
.
>
> Comments:
>
>         o       Is there any good reason why the authors have no listed
> affiliation?
>
>         o       It is somewhat contradictory that the abstract talks abou=
t
>                 "...describes a protocol" and then later "...leaves some
> details
>                  to be specified in profiles, which define actual
> implementable DNCP
>                  based protocols"
>
>                  Does that not mean, then, that this document specifies a=
n
> algorithm,
>                  a framework, and not a protocol?
>
>         o       On that, I see "DNCP protocol" several places. Expanded,
> that becomes
>                 "Dynamic Network Configuration Protocol Protocol" ...
>
>         o       In general, and despite actually knowing some of the core
> algorithms
>                 somewhat before this review, I found the document really
> tough to
>                 read, with convoluted sentences, inconsistent
> requirements-language,
>                 and a lack of introductory "here's the 1000ft view of the
> protocol,
>                 what it does, how it works, and under which conditions it
> works".
>
>         o       On that, I do not find the chosen structure of the
> document to be
>                 optimal for conveying an unambiguous protocol
> specification. For one,
>                 the same concepts are occasionally described slightly
> differently.
>                 For another, it is often hard to find the information
> needed to
>                 parse a specific mandated processing (for example). I
> provide an
>                 example of what I would suggest a better structure in the
> below.
>
>                 The goal is to provide first concepts and an overview,
> followed by a
>                 single, easy to identify place for "precise and
> unambiguous definitions
>                 of concepts", and then use those in the detailed
> expression of the
>                 protocol. Note that this is just an example, of course:
>
>                         Section "Terminology:"
>                                 The Network State Hash is a hash value
> which represents the
>                                 current state of the network, as known by
> a node.
>
>                         Section "Protocol Overview and Functioning"
>
>                                 When receiving a FOO TLV, the DNCP node
> compares the received
>                                 Network State Hash with its own Network
> State Hash. This
>                                 represents the consistency check rom
> RFC6206. If same,
>                                 then...if not, then ....
>
>                         Section "Protocol Information Bases"
>                                 For the purpose of this specification, th=
e
> Protocol
>                                 Information Bases are orgnaized as sets o=
f
> tuples ... any
>                                         implementation can chose whatever
> representation it wants.
>
>                                         The Network State Information Bas=
e
> in a DNCP node is a set
>                                         of tuples:
>                                                 (x, y, z, w)
>
>                                         where x is ..., y is ..., z is
> ..., and w is ...
>
>                         Section "How to calculate the Network State Hash"=
:
>
>                                  The network State Hash is calculated
> using the information
>                                  from the Network State Information Base,
> as follows:
>
>                                                 1. First, the tuples in
> that information base are sorted
>                                                    in ascending order
> based on ....
>
>                                                 2. Second, ....
> (concatenation)
>
>                                                 3. Third, the hash
> function from <profile> is used
>
>                                                 4. Fourth, the first n
> bits of the resulting hash value,
>                                                    are retained, witn n
> being from <profile>.
>
>                         And then, in remaining sections simply reference
> the Network
>                         State Hash, which is now ubiquitously defined in =
a
> single place.
>
>                         I am taking this example, since when reading
> section 5.3 I found
>                         myself chasing through the document, finding
> multiple slightly
>                         different definitions of "Network State Hash" --
> but beyond this
>                         example, it generally does apply to the document
> as a whole, and
>                         certainly to all of the processing and generation
> considerations in
>                         section 5.
>
>         o       As a general comment, the document would do well with a
> good editorial
>                 overhaul to bring consistency in language usage,
> consistency in 2119
>                 terminology, coherence in defined terms and their
> definition, document
>                 structure, etc.
>
> Major Issues:
>
>         o       The introduction does not read well; it contains parts of
> something that
>                 could be considered as part of an applicability statement
> (without it
>                 being called out as such, and without forming a complete
> applicability
>                 statement), and does not actually introduce the protocol.
> Reading just
>                 the introduction and the abstract, it is very obscure if
>                 this is a framework, a protocol, a building block, an
> architecture, an
>                 algorithm -- and, if either of those, what it is actually
> accomplishing,
>                 and why one would chose to use DNCP. It does, however,
> transpire that
>                 "whatever it is", it has two "modes" and that it requires
> something
>                 (presumably a routing protocol) to provide each "node"
> with a topology
>                 map.
>
>                 Suggest that a proper introduction consisting of three
> parts would be
>                 beneficial: (i) what this document is, (ii) what doing
> DNCP actually
>                 gets you, and (iii) the operating conditions under which
> the
>                 DNCP is applicable.
>
>                 On the latter point, given that you state that DNCP
> requires profiles
>                 to provide "actual implementable DNCP based protocols", i=
t
> appears
>                 important to understand what the limits for "what a
> profile can give
>                 you" are.
>
>                 I am calling this out as a major issue, since I believe
> that it is
>                 not just editorial, but is a matter of scoping this
> document correctly,
>                 and in particular not falling into the trap of "claiming
> applicability
>                 where it's not".
>
>         o       The document, in my understanding, defines an exchange
> format with
>                 limited ability to evolve, as simply "a steam of TLVs".
>
>                 As long as there's never a need to evolve the TLV format
> itself, and
>                 as long as you do not run out of TLV types, that's not
> going to be
>                 a problem. The doc sets aside a 16bit TLV type space,
> that's reasonable
>                 enough, but I worry if eventually a DNCPv2 will need to
> evolve the
>                 format. One purely hypothetical example could be if a
> "sequence number"
>                 would be needed in each DNCP message to detect "link
> success rates", or
>                 something of that sort.
>
>                 I do not have an actual example in mind -- and that's
> exactly the point:
>                 to be evolutive for the unknown future and (at the very
> least) be able
>                 to discriminate between "old" and "new".
>
>                 A discussion could be had if a "version number" in each
> TLV would do,
>                 or if a concept of "protocol message with a version
> number" is
>                 preferential. I do not believe, however, that "no version
> number" is
>                 viable.
>
>         o       Noting that the "overhearing n reduncant transmissions" i=
s
> a key
>                 retransmission suppression mechanism in Trickle, and that
> this
>                 seems to assume broad/multicast, using unicast seems to
> contradict
>                 the statement of "consists of Trickle", at least in the
> way the
>                 algorithm is defined in RFC6206. Note: it's fine to use a=
n
> algorithm
>                 outside of its initial scope, but it should be with the
> caveat of
>                 "which of the characteristics still hold, and which do no=
t"
>
>         o       DNCP claims to be trickle based, yet supports unicast. It
> also
>                 (apparently) is a request/reply protocol.  It doesn't hav=
e
> messages.
>                 This document needs a good, and pedagogical, "protocol
> overview and
>                 functioning" section somewhere: one needs to get through
> the end of
>                 Section 5 before having even a vague idea of how DNCP
> works.
>
>         o       The use of normative language is not as tight as could be
> desired.
>                 For example, a number of SHOULDs seem to really ought to
> be "MAYs" since
>                 not following the SHOULD won't break the algorithm. It
> would be good
>                 to walk through the document and take a careful look at
> these to
>                 either MUST/MAY the SHOULDs, or to qualify the SHOULDs
> remaining.
>
>         o       I am going to go out on a limb here, and say that "the
> protocol is
>                 underspecified". That's a deliberately provocative
> statement, but it
>                 was honestly how I felt upon having completed the review.
>
>                 The document does not help the reader get an intuitive
> understanding
>                 of the protocol functioning, but jumps right into minute
> details --
>                 requiring the reader to "build up her or his own model of
> how DNCP
>                 works". On having read the document a few times, I think
> that I
>                 understand it -- but there's nothing permitting me to
> verify my
>                 understanding, and thereby I'd not feel confident to be
> able to
>                 provide an interoperable and independent implementation.
> I've given
>                 some comments in the "Comments" section as to what I thin=
k
> would be
>                 viable ways to improve this point.
>
>          o      Section 5.3, penultimate paragraph:
>
>                         "If keep-alives specified in Section 6.1 are NOT
> sent by the peer
>                      (either the DNCP profile does not specify the use of
> keep-alives or
>                      the particular peer chooses not to send keep-alives)=
,
> some other
>                      means MUST be employed to ensure its presence.  When
> the peer is no
>                      longer present, the Neighbor TLV and the local DNCP
> peer state MUST
>                      be removed."
>
>                 "...some other means MUST be employed to ensure its
> presence." --
>                 followed by more MUST verage when a peer disappears...I a=
m
> not sure that
>                 that's conductive to interoperable implementations.
>
>                 Two implementatons may chose different "means" and then
> turn off keep-
>                 alives - and be non-interoperable.
>
>                 For interoperability, we need:
>
>                                 o       A mandatory to implement
> mechanism, that always is
>                                         present, but can be complemented
> by another "means", or
>
>                                 o       A mandatory to implement
> mechanism, which by way of a
>                                         specified negotiation mechanism
> can be turned off between
>                                         two peers, to allow them to use
> another "means".
>
>                 If you argument is "...this will be specified in the
> profile", then
>                 you still should provide the two above in this document,
> with the note
>                 that "...and a profile may specify which from among these
> MUST be
>                 used in a given deployment"
>
>         o       Section 8:
>                 Interesting; I am not a security expert, but I am very
> curious to
>                 see the SEC-DIR review of this document. That said,
> section 8.3.1
>                 contains normative verbage:
>
>                         "A node MUST be trusted for participating in the
> DNCP network if and
>                         only if..."
>
>                 Which I think needs a qualifier of the "If the certificat=
e
> based
>                 trust model is used, then a node must be trusted for ....=
"
>
>                 Same goes for the subsequent SHOULD - it really reads
> as-if this
>                 certificate based mechanism initially was intended as MTI=
,
> but then
>                 was backed away from subsequently without a complete
> cleanup of the
>                 text?
>
>                 I do actually question the value of having a laundry-list
> of trust
>                 management methods, and for one of those (certs) a
> laundry-list
>                 of all sorts of trust relationship establishment methods,
> in this
>                 document; this in no small part as the lists are
> explicitly indicated
>                 as "non-exhaustive" and that none are listed as "mandator=
y
> to
>                 implement". Was any thought given to factoring this into =
a
> seperate
>                 document, and focusing in this document on one,
> mandatory-to-implement,
>                 security mechanism?
>
> Minor Issues:
>
>         Introduction:
>                 o       1st paragraph: "reachable nodes"; two things:
>
>                                 -       I always have a problem with the
> term "node"; it is often
>                                         used as a shorthand for "routers
> and hosts, both". I was
>                                         given to understand that homenet
> specifically did not want
>                                         to consider host changes?
>
>                                 -       "Reachable" - does that mean
> something as in "radio range",
>                                         does it mean "on the same link",
> does it mean within a
>                                         specific (DNCP?) domain, or does
> it mean simply "on the
>                                         Internet somewhere"?
>
>                 o       2nd paragraph: "nodes that are currently accounte=
d
> for":
>                                 -       What does that mean?
>
>                                 -       Also, the conclusion "Therefore
> unlike Time-To-Live (TTL)
>                                         based solutions, it does not
> require periodic re-publishing
>                                         of the data by the nodes" does
> actually not follow from
>                                         the previous sentence in that
> paragraph.
>
>                                 -       I actually do not think that the
> introduction describes
>                                         what DNCP does, and so the
> comparison to TTL-based
>                                         solutions is rather hard to get
> here.
>
>                                 -       Continuing:
>
>                                                 "On the other hand, it
> does require the topology
>                                                 to be visible to every
> node that wants to be able to
>                                                 identify unreachable node=
s
> and therefore remove old,
>                                                 stale data."
>
>                                         This reads a lot more like an
> applicability statement than
>                                         an introduction; the take-away
> when reading this is:
>
>                                                 "Each node must have
> something that maintains
>                                                  a topology map of the
> entire network, such as
>                                                  a (LS) routing protocol,
> for DNCP to function"
>
>                                         Is that actually the intent here?
>
>                                 -       "DNCP is most suitable for data
> that changes only gradually"
>                                         How is the reader to interpret
> "gradually"? Do you mean
>                                         "infrequently", or do you really
> mean "gradualy"?
>
>                 o Last paragraph:
>                                 "DNCP has relatively few requirements for
> the underlying
>                                  transport; it requires some way of
> transmitting either unicast
>                                  datagram or stream data to a peer"
>
>                         This is a bit of a forward comment, but we now
> have "nodes
>                         that are accounted for" and "peers". I see neithe=
r
> defined in
>                         the terminology section.
>
>                                 "and, if used in multicast mode, a way of
>                                  sending multicast datagrams."
>
>                         This is the first mention of two "modes" of this
> protocol. This
>                         loops back to an earlier comment, that the
> introduction actually
>                         does not introduce the protocol, but rather is an
> incomplete
>                         applicability statement.
>
>                                 "If security is desired and one of the
>                                  built-in security methods is to be used,
> support for some
>                                 TLS-derived transport scheme - such as TL=
S
> [RFC5246] on top of
>                                 TCP or DTLS [RFC6347] on top of UDP - is
> also required."
>
>                         I am not pretending to be a security expert, but
> "some
>                         TLS-derived...such as ... on top of TCP or
> DTLS..." (i) does not
>                         sound like it could lead to interoperable
> implementations, and (ii)
>                         does not sound sufficiently tight as a MTI
> security mechanism to
>                         pass security reviews. Again, I am no security
> expert, but perhaps
>                         getting one looped in early would be advicable?
>
>         Terminology:
>                 o       Suggest adding "In this document ..." somewhere t=
o
> this text:
>
>                                 "For readability, any DNCP profile specif=
ic
>                                  parameters with a profile-specific fixed
> value are
>                                  prefixed with DNCP_."
>
>                 o       DNCP network: I read this twice, and came away
> with two different
>                         understandings, perhaps you can clarify which it
> is:
>
>                                 o       A set of nodes running DNCP,
> within the same domain, and
>                                         for which a path betwen any two
> DNCP nodes includes only
>                                         other DNCP nodes; i.e., a DNCP
> network forms a connected
>                                         component with only other DNCP
> nodes.
>
>                                 o       A set of nodes running DNCP. They
> may be anywhere on the
>                                         Internet, they are part of the
> same DNCP network as long
>                                         as they (through other means) hav=
e
> learned of each others
>                                         addresses.
>
>                         In the former, that'd be (for example) a
> deployment within my
>                         home -- in the latter, it could be a node in my
> home and a node in
>                         your home forming a DNCP network.
>
>                         The text is not quite clear on this point.
>
>                 o       Link: a point of clarification here. In "DNCP
> network", there was
>                         talk about "unidirectional links" and
> "bidirectional links"; in
>                         "Link" the definition is somewhat vague "directly
> connected" and
>                         "can communicate". Could something like "without
> decrementing TTL/
>                         hop-count" be added, and could a statement on
> bidirectionality
>                         (IOW, that this is just an IP link) be added?
>
>
>                 o       "Interface" is overloading the term "port" (IP
> port) which can be
>                         confusing
>
>                 o       "Endpoint" - The definition "locally configured
> use of DNCP" is not
>                         clear -- are you really not talking about a DNCP
> process?
>
>                         I am not sure that it is clear how a DNCP process
> can be "attached
>                         to  ... a specific remote unicast address, or to =
a
> range of unicast
>                         addresses that are allowed to contact"
>
>                         I can see how a DNCP process can be configured to
> allow connections
>                         from a specific range of addresses, or can be
> configured to connect
>                         to a specific remote unicast address. Is that wha=
t
> you mean instead?
>
>
>                 o       "Peer" - states that two peers "communicate
> directly". For link,
>                         the definition is "directly connected nodes can
> communicate".
>                         Would it then not be easier to say "a DNCP node o=
n
> the same link
>                         as ..." ?
>
>                 o       "Node state"
>                                 "The hash function and the number of bits
> used are defined
>                                  in the DNCP profile."
>
>                         Suggest:
>                                 "The hash function and the length of the
> hash value are defined
>                                  in the DNCP profile."
>
>
>                 o       "Network state hash" - same comment as for node
> state (above)
>
>         Data model:
>                 o       "Latest update sequence number"
>                         This may just be my personal taste, but does it
> hurt to mandate
>                         a specific way of doing the looping comparison?
> The reason I
>                         suggest this is, that it's one of those things
> where creativity
>                         in an implementation seems to simply be an
> invitation for bugs,
>                         and for little gain
>
>                 o       "Relative time delta"
>                         Document talks about "a 32 bit number on the wire=
"
> -- does that
>                         mean that wireless links are excluded?
>
>                 o       Related to terminology, there seems to be some
> fuzzyness around
>                         node and endpoint. For example, in data model one
> of the things that
>                         a DNCP node may have is:
>
>                                 "Unicast address: the DNCP node it should
> connect with"
>
>                         Does that mean *any* DNCP process (i.e., *any*
> endpoint) at that
>                         address, or a *specific* DNCP process at that
> address?
>
>                         The same, but inverse, for "Range of addresses:
> the DNCP nodes that
>                         are allowed to connect" - is this "any DHCP
> process (i.e., *any*
>                         endpoint) on any of these addresses?
>
>                         Following, the same section reads:
>
>                                 "For each remote (peer, endpoint) pair
> detected on a local
>                                 endpoint, a DNCP node has..."
>
>                         the following text indicating that there's some
> sort of distinction
>                         between which endpoint.
>
>                         This whole thing needs some clarification.
>
>         Operation
>
>                 o       First a generic comment that Trickle itself has
> some operating
>                         conditions which scopes its applicability, and it
> would behove
>                         this document to, in its own applicability
> statement, call out
>                         those.
>
>                 o       On the same token, while the use of Trickle in an
> unicast fashion
>                         is possible, I wonder if (in general) unicast use
> is advicable. I
>                         appreciate that some links are point-to-point and
> so a broadcast
>                         across it becomes an unicast -- but, does that
> necessitate being
>                         called out?
>
>                         IF the reason for this "because we can use TCP",
> then be explicit
>                         about this - but, also, that you're then not
> exactly using Trickle
>                         where and how it was intended. I wonder if you
> could be explicit
>                         as to what consequences this "alternate use of
> Trickle" have? It
>                         seems that the use of unicast is directly
> contradicting the main
>                         operating consideration of Trickle?
>
>                 o       2nd paragraph states:
>
>                                 "the multicast transport does not have to
> be particularly
>                                  secure"
>
>                         What is the definition of "not have to be
> particularly secure"?
>                         Is cleartext OK? Authentication? Encryption?
>                         Should I do something more?
>
>         5.1 Trickle-driven status updates
>                 o       First paragraph:
>
>                                 "Multicast MUST be employed on a
> multicast-capable interface;
>                                  otherwise, unicast can be used as well"
>
>                         If the interface is not multicast-capable, then
> unicast can be
>                         used as well as what? Certainly not multicast,
> since the interface
>                         is not multicast capable...?
>
>                 o       Continuing:
>
>                                 "If possible, most recent,"
>
>                         What would make it "not possible"?
>
>                                 "recently changed, or best of all, all
> known Node State TLVs"
>
>                         OK, so assuming that for some reason (MTU
> limitation) it is not
>                         possible, does the above represent an order that =
I
> MUST respect,
>                         or is it "take a pick from among these, according
> to your whim of
>                         the day"?
>
>                                 "(Section 7.2.3) SHOULD be also included,=
"
>
>                         SHOULD is a strong statement, especially when
> prefixed by
>                         "if possible". That, essentially, renders it a MA=
Y.
>
>                                 "unless it is defined as undesirable for
> some reason
>                                  by the DNCP profile
>
>                         Now it DEFINITELY is a MAY since apparently a
> profile can state
>                         that these TLVs MUST NOT be included -- and, I
> assume, since the
>                         document permits it to do so, it is possible
> without breaking the
>                         algorithm.
>
>                 o       And, continuing again:
>
>                                 "If the
>                                  DNCP profile supports dense broadcast
> link optimization
>                                  (Section 6.2), and if a node does not
> have the highest node
>                                  identifier on a link, the endpoint may b=
e
> in a unicast mode in
>                                  which multicast traffic is only listened
> to.  In that mode,
>                                  multicast updates MUST NOT be sent."
>
>                         Really hard to parse. Is that not equivalent to
> saying:
>
>                                 "If a DNCP endpoint is not configured to
> be in multicast
>                                   mode, then it MUST NOT send multicast
> updates"
>
>                         ?
>
>                         If it is, then say that -- if it is not, then a
> rewrite is needed,
>                         as that's what I manage to extract from the text.
>
>
>         5.2.  Processing of Received TLVs
>                 o       First paragraph reads:
>
>                                 "The DNCP profile may specify criteria
> based on which particular
>                                  TLVs are ignored."
>
>                         Criteria for what? Do you perhaps mean:
>
>                                 "The DNCP profile may specify which TLVs
> to process, and
>                                  which to ignore"?
>
>                         Auxiliary question, then, and related to my
> penultimate comment
>                         to 5.1, are there any constraints on that, any
> risks from ignoring
>                         (or not) specific TLVs to the operation of the
> network?
>
>                 o       I am also confused by the 3rd sentence in the
> first paragraph:
>
>                                 "Any =E2=80=99reply=E2=80=99 mentioned in=
 the steps below
> denotes sending of
>                                  the specified TLV(s) via unicast to the
> originator of the TLV
>                                  being processed."
>
>                          This confusion is likely due to the lack of a
> "protocol overview
>                          and functioning" description [either as its own
> section, or as part
>                          of the introduction].
>
>                          I know how trickle works. Trickle is a
> distributed consistency
>                          algorithm. When an inconsistency is detected,
> then an action is
>                          triggered that rectifies that inconsistency.
> DNCP claims to be trickle based, but apparently also a sort of request/re=
ply
>                          mechanism. Combined with
> trickle-over-unicast-links, I am not sure
>                          what the protocol logic actually is. Reading
> through to the end of
>                          Section 5, I think that I understand the idea,
> but I am not sure.
>
>                          And the old "when in doubt, look at the state
> machines" didn't help
>                          either, there aren't any.
>
>                          The point to this comment is, that the document
> immediately jumps
>                          into the details -- but forgets to give the
> "10000ft view" of the
>                          protocol functioning.
>
>                 o       First paragraph states two SHOULD. Would those no=
t
> be MUST? What
>                         breaks if not respecting those criteria?
>
>                 o       2nd paragraph, a "valid address", that definition
> is rather unclear.
>                         I understand that that's something specified in
> "the profile", but
>                         what is the relationship to the different
> addresses discussed in
>                         the data model section?
>
>                         It is not clear what the parenthesis to this
> paragraph means,
>                         but that is probably again a case of the "use
> case" and "protocol
>                         overview" not being documented - the document so
> far has nowhere
>                         described interaction with outside processes.
>
>                 o       First bullet, but generally through these, and
> other, bullets:
>
>                         I had a really hard time deciphering this. First:
>
>                                 "The receiver MUST reply
>                          with a Network State TLV (Section 7.2.2) and a
> Node State TLV
>                          (Section 7.2.3) for each node data used to
> calculate the
>                          network state hash"
>
>                     Alright, off to find "network state hash".
>
>                     The terminology tells me that it is:
>
>                         "a hash value which represents the current state =
of
>                                  the network.  The hash function and the
> number of
>                  bits used are defined in the DNCP profile.
>                  Whenever a node is added, removed or updates its
>                  published node data this hash value changes as
>                  well. It is calculated over each reachable nodes'
>                  update number concatenated with the hash value of
>                  its node data. For calculation these tuples are
>                  sorted in ascending order of the respective node's
>                  node identifier.
>
>                     Searching further, I find Section 5.1, but that simpl=
y
> states:
>
>                         "The Trickle state for all endpoints is
>                              considered inconsistent and reset if and onl=
y
> if the locally
>                              calculated network state hash changes."
>
>                         Next occurence is in these bullets, and then just
> before Section 6,
>
>                                 "During
>                              the grace period, the nodes that were not
> marked reachable
>                              in the most recent graph traversal MUST NOT
> be used for
>                              calculation of the network state hash, be
> provided to any
>                              applications that need to use the whole TLV
> graph, or be
>                              provided to remote nodes."
>
>                         Alright, now I know what I can't use for
> calculating it.
>
>                         A few occurences later, in section 7.2.2, in what
> looks like a
>                         section laying out the packet -- sorry, TLV --
> format, I see for
>                         "Network State TLV":
>
>                                 "This TLV contains the current locally
> calculated network state
>                                 hash. It is calculated over each reachabl=
e
> nodes' update number
>                                 concatenated with the hash value of its
> node data in ascending
>                                 order of the respective node identifiers"
>
>                         Phew. Now, it does seem a little at odds with the
> terminology. The
>                         terminology states something about tuples that ar=
e
> ordered. While
>                         those tuples are not defined (they should be), at
> least what is
>                         described is clear and possibly can be
> implemented. What is in 7.2.2
>                         is not ant cannot.
>
>                         This is an instance of a general issue that I hav=
e
> with this
>                         document: that it doesn't take a step back, and
> properly define
>                         things in a proper order, but dives into (and
> repeats) details.
>
>
>                 o       Also to section 5.2, for each of the cases that
> are described, could
>                         a conceptual description of "what this correspond=
s
> to" be added? For
>                         example:
>
>                                 Upon reciept of a Node State TLV:
>                                         If the node identifier matches th=
e
> local node identifier and
>                                         the TLV has a higher update
> sequence number than its current
>                         local value, or the same update sequence number
> and a
>                         different hash, the node SHOULD re-publish its ow=
n
> node data
>                         with an update sequence number 1000 higher than
> the received
>                         one.
>
>                         It's not clear why it is a "SHOULD re-publish"
> (not MUST, nor what
>                         happens if SHOULD is not followed). And it is not
> clear why 1000 ...
>
>                         [I just pick this example, but it applies to all
> processing bullets]
>
>         o       In the same cases, it is a lot more readable (IMO) to do
> nested bullets:
>
>                 o       If FOO; and either of:
>                                 - BAR
>                                 - GNYF
>                                 - BLAB
>                         Then do all of the following:
>                                 - ...
>                                 - ...
>                                 - ...
>                 o       Otherwise, if not-FOO, ...
>
>                 That's a personal preference, though, so feel free to
> disregard this
>                 comment.
>
>          o      Section 5.3 and elsewhere, suggest replacing:
>
>                         "If it comes via..."
>
>                 by:
>
>                         "If received over ..."
>
>
>         o       Last paragraph in 5.3:
>                         Same comment as 3rd comment to 5.1 made above.
>
>         o       Section 5.4, first sentence:
>                         "DNCP validates the set of data within it ..."
>
>                 Should that not be:
>                         "A DNCP instance validates the data within its
> data sets ..."
>
>                 ?
>
>                 Also, "nodes that are currently accounted for; what's the
> definition
>                 of "accounted for"?
>
>         o       Section 5.4, first paragraph
>                 The statement:
>
>                         "therefore,
>                          unlike Time-To-Live (TTL) based solutions, it
> does not require
>                      periodic re-publishing of the data by the nodes.  On
> the other
>                      hand, it does require the topology to be visible to
> every node that
>                      wants to be able to identify unreachable nodes and
> therefore remove
>                      old, stale data."
>
>                 which also appeared in the introduction, is copied
> verbatimly. Once
>                 more, the statement is a claim which is not supported, an=
d
> that which
>                 follows "therefore" is not a consequence of that which
> comes before
>                 "therefore".
>
>         o       Section 5.4, first paragraph
>
>                         "When a Neighbor TLV or a whole node is added or
> removed, the
>                         neighbor graph SHOULD be traversed, starting from
> the local node.
>                         The edges to be traversed are identified by
> looking for Neighbor
>                         TLVs on both nodes, that have the other node=E2=
=80=99s
> identifier in the
>                         neighbor node identifier, and local and neighbor
> endpoint
>                         identifiers swapped. Each node reached should be
> marked currently
>                         reachable."
>
>                 First comment, why SHOULD and not MUST?
>
>                 Second comment, and now you made me go look...."neighbor"
> sounds like
>                 "someone on the same link as me" so  the "neighbor graph"
> is really just
>                 a set relating "this node" and "another node which is on
> the same link
>                 as this node".
>
>                 Yet, looking in the terminology, I see "Neighbor graph"
> defined as:
>                                 "the undirected graph of DNCP nodes
> produced by
>                  retaining only bidirectional peer relationships
>                  between nodes.
>
>                 Which doesn't sound as much like a "neighbor graph" as it
> does a
>                 "topology graph" for the whole network.
>
>                 So, is the terminology wrong, or is the definition wrong?
>
>         o       Section 5.4, 3rd paragraph
>
>                 Is it actually important that the content of that graph b=
e
> "purged"?
>                 That sounds like an implementation detail -- rather, it
> sounds like
>                 the elements of the graph should "not be used for
> calculations and
>                 MAY be removed". Or, is there a specific requirement that
> I am
>                 missing?
>
>         o       Section 6.1, I do not understand the parenthesis in this
> sentence:
>
>                         Trickle-driven status updates (Section 5.1)
> provide a mechanism for
>                         handling of new peer detection (if applicable) on
> an endpoint
>
>                 Under what conditions is that applicable, and under which
> is it not?
>
>         o       Section 6.2:
>
>                         "An upper bound for the number of neighbors that
> are allowed for a
>                          (particular type of) link that an endpoint runs
> on SHOULD be
>                          provided by a DNCP profile, user configuration,
> or some hardcoded
>                          default in the implementation."
>
>                 A couple of things to that:
>                         1)      Can you explain the parenthesis? What typ=
e
> of link?
>                         2)      How does "an endpoint runs on" a link?
>                         3)      Why SHOULD?
>                         4)      Is this specification seriously suggestin=
g
> "some hardcoded
>                                 default in the implementation" as a SHOUL=
D?
>
>                 [I am tempted to upgrade this to a "Major issue" simply
> because of 4) ]
>
>
>                 Also to 6.2, this particular optimization, do you have an=
y
>                 quantification of its actual benefit? What should I look
> for to
>                 determine if this "optimization" yields a benefit or not?
> What are
>                 you trying to optimize? Over what link types does this
> function?
>                 I am dubious that it "optimizes" much, if anything, acros=
s
> an Ethernet, for example ...
>
>         o       Section 7
>                 As indicated previously, having to search through the
> frame format
>                 diagrams for "how to calculate the value" isn't ideal.
>
>         o       Section 7.2.3, I worry when I see something like this:
>
>                         "The whole network should have roughly the same
> idea about the time
>                          since origination of any particular published
> state."
>
>                 What is the definition of "roughly"?
>                 Is the "should" intentionally in non-caps?
>                 What're the consequences if not?
>                 [Note that trickle almost mechanically makes information
> propagate
>                 with non-trivial jitter across a network, so how do you
> ensure this?]
>
>         o       Section 7.2.4, CUSTOM-DATA TLV.
>
>                 Given the description:
>                         "This TLV can be used to contain anything; the UR=
I
> used should be
>                          under control of the author of that
> specification."
>
>                 It seems that (i) the description is self-contradictory:
> it cannot
>                 contain *anything* but can contain an URI?
>
>                 Secondly, how is this supposed to work, what does it mean
> [for DNCP]
>                 that "the URI is under control of the author"?
>
>                 Thirdly, what does "that specification" refer to?
>
>                 Fourthly, why lower-case should? Indeed, why is the
> "control" of the
>                 URI of any importance to DNCP?
>
>         o       Section 9, the bullet:
>
>                         "When receiving messages, what sort of messages
> are dropped, as
>                         specified in Section 5.2"
>
>                 Seems at odds with Section 5.2, which discusses TLV
> processing.
>
>
> Nits:
>
>         Requirement Language:
>                 o       Please reflect Errata 499 for RFC2119 in the
> boilerplate
>
>                 o       The RFC2119 boilerplate could conveniently be in
> the terminology
>                         section, given that it is terminology.
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>

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--001a113ed24c8434ce0518b1595a--


From nobody Thu Jun 18 07:27:51 2015
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From: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@astrium.eads.net>
To: 'Henning Rogge' <hrogge@gmail.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
Thread-Index: AQHQojhqOLZ7x+mP20iQwyjGq8cNLJ2yMiMAgAAW8zA=
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Henning,
    Thanks for the  opinions.  See below for in line response to those
topics that have to do with the review and my intent -- I'm staying away
from "WG/chair/AD" discussion topics.

On 6/18/2015 8:38 AM, Henning Rogge wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:10 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:
>> [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.]
>>
>> Hello,
> Hi...
>
> I am NOT one of the DLEP authors, but I have been active during the
> design process (some people might say "annoyingly active"), so here
> are my opinions on this review. Hopefully it will be helpful for the
> authors.
>
>> ...

>> Major Issues:
>>
>>     - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8
>>       bits.  While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measure,
>>       which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for
>>       larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. --
>>       We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain.
> On the other side the largest data item we have at the moment is 18
> bytes (IPv6 connection point). I am not really seeing lots of
> use-cases for large data items in DLEP.

My experience in the past has been that unknown uses show up later and
make this an issue that needs to be solved by some ugly semantic
fragmentation, so if possible, I think it should be fixed.

> Still, changing the TLV length to 16 bit would be trivial to do... but
> would this mean we also should change the signal length field to 4
> bytes?

I wasn't suggesting this and I don't think so. 2^16 is a pretty big
message.

>>     - Version number is currently defined as a data item.  This means a
>>       signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to
>>       discover what version is being used.  This precludes basic format
>>       changes to the protocol.  Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals
>>       should be special cased to include version in their formats.  (And
>>       shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below).
> Putting it into the UDP based discovery packets as a "header" could
> work... they are a bit special anyways (UDP) and we don't need to
> repeat the version later.

Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per current spec.

>
>>     - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and
>>       'discovery' states.  These either need to be formally defined or
>>       removed.  BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) and
>>       ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of the
>>       process.
> I think "discovery phase" is before the TCP connection between radio
> and router is established.

Sure, but the point I was making there's a difference between
unambiguously specifying something that can be independently implemented
by someone not involved in the WG vs a common understanding in the WG
based on discussion while the spec is developed.  The challenge is
ensuring the document (the former) adequately captures the latter.

>
>>     - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship
>>       with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined.  For example:
>>
>>       o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in a
>>         way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior
>>         (close TCP before ACK is received).
> Maybe this should be "closing the DLEP session and not using the
> active TCP session anymore" ?
>
>>       o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP
>>         session be reused or must it be closed too?
> No, I think the DLEP strategy is "start from scratch"... when you
> terminate a DLEP session you go back to the discovery mechanism to
> start a new one.

Whichever reasonable approach is taken it just needs to be explicitly
documented.

>
>>     - There is no transaction model defined.  For example, it's
>>       completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at a
>>       time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps
>>       there are no restrictions.  This needs to be explicit.
> I think we don't need restrictions here because of TCP. The other side
> WILL answer to eachof our signals or the TCP session will be
> terminated.

I don't think TCP helps (or hurts here).  This is a question of what
different implementations will choose to do / support WRT signals of the
same or different types being processed in parallel.

>>     - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP?  Retries
>>       aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being used.
> We want to know when the connection between radio and router is
> lost... this can take a LONG time when the router is mostly listening
> to the Radio (TCP timeout is much to long for our use-case), so we use
> the Heartbeats.

This comment relates to the per signal acks and retries.  I didn't
include the connection failure detection covered by the heartbeat signal
in this comment.

>>     - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really
>>       clear.  It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliable
>>       transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. Of
>>       course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others
>>       should be clear.  For example, in section 7.10, why would there be
>>       a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an
>>       error?
> The DLEP "ACK Signals" are more a response to a "request signal"...
> transaction acknowledgement and result.
>
>>     - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there really
>>       none?  For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limit
>>       Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle
>>       the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go
>>       down.
> Just send as fast as you want and let TCP (buffer) take care of the
> rest... both Destination up/down are small signals, so it shouldn't be
> a problem. 
The assumptions behind this "shouldn't part of this" is what should be
discussed...

> And you are only allowed to send Destination Updates when
> you received the Destination ACK.

Where is this restriction specified?  I don't recall seeing it.

>>     - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to
>>       define their own 'heuristics'.  Some of these seem unnecessary due
>>       to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protocol
>>       should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent
>>       behavior from implementations.
> No comment on this one.
>
>>     - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental
>>       Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8).  Both seem to support for
>>       optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values,
>>       why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.
>>       o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between
>>         these?
>>       o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized?
> As far as I understand this "Experimental Definition" is something you
> use in the lab...  you can have a maximum of one experiment for DLEP,
Interesting -- where is this restriction defined?  Section 7.3 says 
that "one or more" are allowed.

> so this is more to make sure your special "work in progress" code does
> not collide too hard with a standard radio/router.
It's pretty unclear from the spec how experimental definitions are to be
used -- or if they belong in standards track document at all.

> On the other side you can support as many "Extensions" as you want...
> and I expect this WG to standardize a few additional of them after
> DLEP becomes a RFC.
okay, look forward to seeing an IANA allocation policy for these.

>
>>     - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items.  The
>>       definition related to these basically says a resources is "An
>>       8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of
>>       resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.".  If I were
>>       implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce,
>>       update or use this information.  I think there is some missing
>>       informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these
>>       formats.
> My only idea about them would be "battery level"... not sure how
> useful it is to query the radio about this.

some context would be great.  -- sounds like its akin to a routing metric.

>>     - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar
>>       problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if
>>       there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link quality
>>       that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is just
>>       passed for as monitoring information.  Either way, this needs to
>>       be clarified.
> It seems the radio vendors really like this field. The reason why we
> made "max/current link speed" mandatory is to make RLQ at least
> reasonable useful.
same comment.
>>     - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the one
>>       documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged,
>>       but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of
>>       credits relative to the data plane.
>>
> No comment on this one.
>
>>     - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
>>       optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
>>       allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
>>       issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.
> I think "no status TLV" is always "everything is fine"...
>
>>     - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirements
>>       on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no
>>       ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within
>>       Signals.
> I think is exactly as most (all?) of us have implemented it... no
> ordering required.

Cool, then this is just a simple matter of documenting "what everyone
implements".

>>     - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a
>>       signal isn't always clear.  For example are 0/1/N copies of a
>>       particular Data Item required/allowed.  Using something like ABNF
>>       would really help formalize and clarify this.
> Can you give an example where this is undefined? As far as I can see
> the draft explicitly states what and how often you can use TLVs per
> signal.

I think the experimental data item discussion above is a perfect
example.  You though only one is allowed the spec is vague in section
8.8 and explicit in 7.3.  -- Narrative lacks precision and is easily
misread.  Something like ABNF is far more transparent.

>>     - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrative
>>       text, normative / required processing procedures, and message
>>       formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it just
>>       makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol.
>>       What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate
>>       (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for
>>       omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error
>>       processing).  Specific examples are included above and below.  It
>>       would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior is
>>       defined just once and in a consistent way.
>>
>>     - The security consideration section is inadequate.  This section
>>       should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user
>>       traffic.  It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possible
>>       exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol.  rfc6952,
>>       and the protocols it references can serve as examples.
> DLEP is only on the local ethernet connection between the radio and
> the router... it is NOT spoken between different router/radio
> components of a network. RFC6952 is talking about securing
> communication over the routed network.

This is a scoping of the problem that should go into a security the
section.   RFC4204 covers a similar scoped protocol, although it's
security considerations section is quite dated.

>
>> Minor Issues:
>>
>>     - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits.  This seems
>>       pretty small, particularly the data type field.  Given this is a
>>       control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field
>>       would provide better "future proofing".
> So you would like to move BOTH the type and the length fields of the
> TLVs to 16 bit?
I'd probably enlarge data items and leave signal type alone. 
Alternatively you can plan to do something ugly down the road, like type
255 means look in value field for an extended type field - yuck.

>
>>     - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1).  This seems a
>>       bit excessive.  I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself.
> Most likely 8 bits are enough, especially because I would expect the
> version number to become "fixed" after the RFC release.
That would be great.

>>     - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to have a
>>       generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mention
>>       this here as this may come up again when clarifying the
>>       transaction model (as mentioned above.)
> could be... but I am not sure about the advantage of moving the "ack
> type" into a TLV.
This would be a really major change at this juncture, as this is a
"minor comment" I didn't really expect for it to be changed at this late
date -- so no need to debate.

>>     - Section 2: Assumptions
>>       This section includes informative and normative text so is more
>>       than just Assumptions.  Personally, I'd remove all normative text
>>       from the section.
>>
>>     - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation.
> UDP header formation?
format.  I.e., what addresses and ports must be used.

>
>>     - Sections 8.10->8.17.  Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnets
>>       in destination update signals?
> I think we talked about this and the reason was that subnets are only
> as "fixed settings" supported.
I'm sorry I don't understand your response.  Are you saying subnet
reconfiguration requires a session reset?

>>     - The IANA Considerations sections must follow RFC2360.
>>     - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in
>>       the document.  (The document currently has many TBDs that should
>>       be replaced.)
> I didn't know about this, I have always seen Drafts with TBDx...

TBD is right for existing registries.  For new registries IANA doesn't
have any policies or guidance.  This comes from the document that
establish the registries, i.e, this one.
 
>
>>     - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.:
>>     The registry should be established with registration policies of
>>     "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and
>>     “Specification Required" (for other documents). The designated
>>     expert is any current <fill-in> WG chair.
>>
>> Nits:
>>
>>     - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for
>>       what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in
>>       other protocols.  It's probably too late to change this, but I
>>       think the introduction of unique terminology is counter
>>       productive.
>>
>>     - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there are
>>       words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look at
>>       http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some
>>       suggestions.
>>
>>     - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times.  It
>>       really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the wire.
> Not sure what you mean...
This is a specification of behavior "on the wire" .  It should be
possible to implement in an OS that doesn't implement sockets but
properly conforms to the spec.

>>     - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably octets)
> Yes, octets.
>
>>     - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add value,
>>       suggest dropping them.
>>
>>     - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent?
> I would guess attached to a "Peer Termination" Signal... the other
> side sent us something we don't understand.
>
>>     - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable length
>>       field.
>>
>>     - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable length
>>       field.
> You mean a "..." in the ascii art?
yes.


> Henning Rogge
>

Thanks!

Lou


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
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Hi,

Just adding some replies inline...

On 18/06/15 22:28, Lou Berger wrote:
> Henning,
>      Thanks for the  opinions.  See below for in line response to those
> topics that have to do with the review and my intent -- I'm staying away
> from "WG/chair/AD" discussion topics.
>
> On 6/18/2015 8:38 AM, Henning Rogge wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:10 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:
>>> [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.]
>>>
>>> Hello,
>> Hi...
>>
>> I am NOT one of the DLEP authors, but I have been active during the
>> design process (some people might say "annoyingly active"), so here
>> are my opinions on this review. Hopefully it will be helpful for the
>> authors.

I am one of the authors, and I'll try to help clarify why we have gone
the direction we have.

>>
>>> ...
>
>>> Major Issues:
>>>
>>>      - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8
>>>        bits.  While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measur=
e,
>>>        which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for
>>>        larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. --
>>>        We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain.
>> On the other side the largest data item we have at the moment is 18
>> bytes (IPv6 connection point). I am not really seeing lots of
>> use-cases for large data items in DLEP.
>
> My experience in the past has been that unknown uses show up later and
> make this an issue that needs to be solved by some ugly semantic
> fragmentation, so if possible, I think it should be fixed.
>
>> Still, changing the TLV length to 16 bit would be trivial to do... but
>> would this mean we also should change the signal length field to 4
>> bytes?
>
> I wasn't suggesting this and I don't think so. 2^16 is a pretty big
> message.

There is nothing stopping an extension of the data item length to 2^16
octets, but as Henning pointed out, that would suggest an increase of
the signal length field to 2^32 (as signals 'contain' data items).

The reason we haven't gone for 2^16 currently are:

1) We have no data items > ~20 octets.

2) We wanted to keep the data items and signals 'short and sweet' in
form. An implementation could use small stack allocated buffers in
embedded hardware rather than worrying about bigger blocks of memory.

But: Adding big data items later would be more difficult.

Note: There is no 'bits on the wire' performance concerns here, DLEP is
over the local link.

There is a third way:  If the length field in the signal is replaced
with a count field, then both can be kept at 16 bits, but it makes
parsing more complicated.

Can I ask for some +1/-1's from the list on this one please?  It is not
a major change to the document.

>
>>>      - Version number is currently defined as a data item.  This means =
a
>>>        signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to
>>>        discover what version is being used.  This precludes basic forma=
t
>>>        changes to the protocol.  Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals
>>>        should be special cased to include version in their formats.  (A=
nd
>>>        shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below).
>> Putting it into the UDP based discovery packets as a "header" could
>> work... they are a bit special anyways (UDP) and we don't need to
>> repeat the version later.
>
> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per current sp=
ec.

I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, minor
octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!

I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in the
initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definitely
do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are
special anyway.

I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds special
case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *not*
using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port
combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP
versions ensure back compatibility.

>
>>
>>>      - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and
>>>        'discovery' states.  These either need to be formally defined or
>>>        removed.  BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) a=
nd
>>>        ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of the
>>>        process.
>> I think "discovery phase" is before the TCP connection between radio
>> and router is established.
>
> Sure, but the point I was making there's a difference between
> unambiguously specifying something that can be independently implemented
> by someone not involved in the WG vs a common understanding in the WG
> based on discussion while the spec is developed.  The challenge is
> ensuring the document (the former) adequately captures the latter.

Fair point.  We will revisit the text about states.

>
>>
>>>      - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship
>>>        with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined.  For example:
>>>
>>>        o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in =
a
>>>          way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior
>>>          (close TCP before ACK is received).
>> Maybe this should be "closing the DLEP session and not using the
>> active TCP session anymore" ?
>>
>>>        o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP
>>>          session be reused or must it be closed too?
>> No, I think the DLEP strategy is "start from scratch"... when you
>> terminate a DLEP session you go back to the discovery mechanism to
>> start a new one.
>
> Whichever reasonable approach is taken it just needs to be explicitly
> documented.

We favour a start from scratch approach.  But it does need to explicitly
stated somewhere.

>
>>
>>>      - There is no transaction model defined.  For example, it's
>>>        completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at =
a
>>>        time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps
>>>        there are no restrictions.  This needs to be explicit.
>> I think we don't need restrictions here because of TCP. The other side
>> WILL answer to eachof our signals or the TCP session will be
>> terminated.
>
> I don't think TCP helps (or hurts here).  This is a question of what
> different implementations will choose to do / support WRT signals of the
> same or different types being processed in parallel.

Particularly with the Request signals, there is a weakness in the text
about transactions that needs to be addressed.  This is one of those
areas where those involved early on have a clear idea, but it isn't
clear in the text.

>
>>>      - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP?  Retries
>>>        aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being use=
d.
>> We want to know when the connection between radio and router is
>> lost... this can take a LONG time when the router is mostly listening
>> to the Radio (TCP timeout is much to long for our use-case), so we use
>> the Heartbeats.
>
> This comment relates to the per signal acks and retries.  I didn't
> include the connection failure detection covered by the heartbeat signal
> in this comment.

The retries and heartbeats are to detect a failure in the process using
the TCP connection, rather than a failure of the connection itself.
 From experience in the MANET space, complex routers and radios can
crash internally/lose control plane long before the TCP session times out.

>
>>>      - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really
>>>        clear.  It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliabl=
e
>>>        transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. O=
f
>>>        course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others
>>>        should be clear.  For example, in section 7.10, why would there =
be
>>>        a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an
>>>        error?
>> The DLEP "ACK Signals" are more a response to a "request signal"...
>> transaction acknowledgement and result.

ACKs are intended as an processing acknowledgement rather than a receipt
acknowledgement, i.e. "I have done/not done what you asked".

>>
>>>      - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there real=
ly
>>>        none?  For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limi=
t
>>>        Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle
>>>        the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go
>>>        down.
>> Just send as fast as you want and let TCP (buffer) take care of the
>> rest... both Destination up/down are small signals, so it shouldn't be
>> a problem.
> The assumptions behind this "shouldn't part of this" is what should be
> discussed...

Yes, there is no text about rate limiting updates.  Not from a TCP
datarate perspective, but from a processing perspective.  We don't
really want to predict the performance of processors by stating hard
rules on rate-limiting.

This only applies to Destination_Updates, as everything else is
throttled by waiting for ACKs. (Made clearer when some text on
transactions is put in)

>
>> And you are only allowed to send Destination Updates when
>> you received the Destination ACK.
>
> Where is this restriction specified?  I don't recall seeing it.

It isn't mentioned, but is expected.  The text will have to be improved.
  I think there is a need for a section on transactions.

>
>>>      - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to
>>>        define their own 'heuristics'.  Some of these seem unnecessary d=
ue
>>>        to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protoc=
ol
>>>        should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent
>>>        behavior from implementations.
>> No comment on this one.

As with rate-limiting, this is a can of worms we have intentionally not
opened.  We will have a careful look at every place heuristics are
mentioned and when possible suggest some sensible defaults.

>>
>>>      - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental
>>>        Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8).  Both seem to support for
>>>        optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values=
,
>>>        why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.
>>>        o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between
>>>          these?
>>>        o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized?
>> As far as I understand this "Experimental Definition" is something you
>> use in the lab...  you can have a maximum of one experiment for DLEP,
> Interesting -- where is this restriction defined?  Section 7.3 says
> that "one or more" are allowed.
>
>> so this is more to make sure your special "work in progress" code does
>> not collide too hard with a standard radio/router.
> It's pretty unclear from the spec how experimental definitions are to be
> used -- or if they belong in standards track document at all.
>
>> On the other side you can support as many "Extensions" as you want...
>> and I expect this WG to standardize a few additional of them after
>> DLEP becomes a RFC.
> okay, look forward to seeing an IANA allocation policy for these.

I have covered this in another mail, so I won't repeat. (see Section 11.6)

>
>>
>>>      - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items.  T=
he
>>>        definition related to these basically says a resources is "An
>>>        8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of
>>>        resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.".  If I were
>>>        implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce,
>>>        update or use this information.  I think there is some missing
>>>        informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these
>>>        formats.
>> My only idea about them would be "battery level"... not sure how
>> useful it is to query the radio about this.
>
> some context would be great.  -- sounds like its akin to a routing metric=
.
>
>>>      - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar
>>>        problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if
>>>        there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link qualit=
y
>>>        that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is ju=
st
>>>        passed for as monitoring information.  Either way, this needs to
>>>        be clarified.
>> It seems the radio vendors really like this field. The reason why we
>> made "max/current link speed" mandatory is to make RLQ at least
>> reasonable useful.
> same comment.

The Resources and RLQ metrics are there as DLEP builds upon the work
done in RFC5578.  I have always considered Resources to be some
indication of 'work-load' on the modem rather than explicit battery
level.  Perhaps the descriptive text needs to be expanded.


>>>      - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the on=
e
>>>        documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged=
,
>>>        but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of
>>>        credits relative to the data plane.
>>>
>> No comment on this one.

This is one for Stan.  Credit-windowing is his baby.

>>
>>>      - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
>>>        optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
>>>        allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
>>>        issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.
>> I think "no status TLV" is always "everything is fine"...

We are currently happy with the way this works.  If an optional data
item is missing, then the default value is used.  This should be
explicitly stated whenever an optional data item can be omitted.

>>
>>>      - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirement=
s
>>>        on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no
>>>        ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within
>>>        Signals.
>> I think is exactly as most (all?) of us have implemented it... no
>> ordering required.
>
> Cool, then this is just a simple matter of documenting "what everyone
> implements".

Section 6 states: "There is no restriction on the order of data items
following a signal"

>
>>>      - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a
>>>        signal isn't always clear.  For example are 0/1/N copies of a
>>>        particular Data Item required/allowed.  Using something like ABN=
F
>>>        would really help formalize and clarify this.
>> Can you give an example where this is undefined? As far as I can see
>> the draft explicitly states what and how often you can use TLVs per
>> signal.
>
> I think the experimental data item discussion above is a perfect
> example.  You though only one is allowed the spec is vague in section
> 8.8 and explicit in 7.3.  -- Narrative lacks precision and is easily
> misread.  Something like ABNF is far more transparent.

Section 6 states: "...the multiplicity of duplicate data items is
defined by the definition of the signal declared by the type in the
signal header."

We have attempted to enumerate the multiplicity of every data item in
each signal.  If we have missed one please point it out.

Section 3.3 states: "Multiple Experimental Definition data items MAY
appear in the Peer Initialization/Peer Initialization ACK sequence."

I have tried to define ABNF, but I struggle with defining the
multiplicity and optional ordering rules, any advice gratefully received.

>
>>>      - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrativ=
e
>>>        text, normative / required processing procedures, and message
>>>        formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it jus=
t
>>>        makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol.
>>>        What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate
>>>        (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for
>>>        omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error
>>>        processing).  Specific examples are included above and below.  I=
t
>>>        would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior i=
s
>>>        defined just once and in a consistent way.

This is a hangover of the major rewrites that have occurred over the
last 14 versions.  Let us have another pass at the text and we can see
what we can do.


>>>
>>>      - The security consideration section is inadequate.  This section
>>>        should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user
>>>        traffic.  It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possibl=
e
>>>        exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol.  rfc6952,
>>>        and the protocols it references can serve as examples.
>> DLEP is only on the local ethernet connection between the radio and
>> the router... it is NOT spoken between different router/radio
>> components of a network. RFC6952 is talking about securing
>> communication over the routed network.
>
> This is a scoping of the problem that should go into a security the
> section.   RFC4204 covers a similar scoped protocol, although it's
> security considerations section is quite dated.

We have done no analysis of a malicious peer in a DLEP session as the
nature of the link-local connectivity made it seem unnecessary.  Are you
suggesting that we need to address this?

>
>>
>>> Minor Issues:
>>>
>>>      - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits.  This seems
>>>        pretty small, particularly the data type field.  Given this is a
>>>        control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field
>>>        would provide better "future proofing".
>> So you would like to move BOTH the type and the length fields of the
>> TLVs to 16 bit?
> I'd probably enlarge data items and leave signal type alone.
> Alternatively you can plan to do something ugly down the road, like type
> 255 means look in value field for an extended type field - yuck.

See comments above.

>
>>
>>>      - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1).  This seems a
>>>        bit excessive.  I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself.
>> Most likely 8 bits are enough, especially because I would expect the
>> version number to become "fixed" after the RFC release.
> That would be great.

See comments above.

>
>>>      - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to have=
 a
>>>        generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mention
>>>        this here as this may come up again when clarifying the
>>>        transaction model (as mentioned above.)
>> could be... but I am not sure about the advantage of moving the "ack
>> type" into a TLV.
> This would be a really major change at this juncture, as this is a
> "minor comment" I didn't really expect for it to be changed at this late
> date -- so no need to debate.

We have debated this before, and the multiple ACKs approach is preferred
by the WG.

>
>>>      - Section 2: Assumptions
>>>        This section includes informative and normative text so is more
>>>        than just Assumptions.  Personally, I'd remove all normative tex=
t
>>>        from the section.
>>>
>>>      - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation.
>> UDP header formation?
> format.  I.e., what addresses and ports must be used.
>

Does Section 5.1 not cover this?

>>
>>>      - Sections 8.10->8.17.  Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnet=
s
>>>        in destination update signals?
>> I think we talked about this and the reason was that subnets are only
>> as "fixed settings" supported.
> I'm sorry I don't understand your response.  Are you saying subnet
> reconfiguration requires a session reset?

Subnet reconfiguration requires a session restart.

>
>>>      - The IANA Considerations sections must follow RFC2360.
>>>      - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in
>>>        the document.  (The document currently has many TBDs that should
>>>        be replaced.)
>> I didn't know about this, I have always seen Drafts with TBDx...
>
> TBD is right for existing registries.  For new registries IANA doesn't
> have any policies or guidance.  This comes from the document that
> establish the registries, i.e, this one.

We shall suggest some values.  Probably from the existing interoperable
implementations.

>
>>
>>>      - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.:
>>>      The registry should be established with registration policies of
>>>      "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and
>>>      "Specification Required" (for other documents). The designated
>>>      expert is any current <fill-in> WG chair.

This is one for Stan.

>>>
>>> Nits:
>>>
>>>      - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for
>>>        what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in
>>>        other protocols.  It's probably too late to change this, but I
>>>        think the introduction of unique terminology is counter
>>>        productive

TLVs was rejected as a name, as both signals and data items are
Type-Length-Value encoded.  Signals was selected as they are 'events'
rather than RPCs, and it might be a bit late to change the terminology.

>>>
>>>      - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there a=
re
>>>        words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look a=
t
>>>        http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for som=
e
>>>        suggestions.

We will have another pass.  Can you point out some examples please?

>>>
>>>      - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times.  It
>>>        really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the wire=
.
>> Not sure what you mean...
> This is a specification of behavior "on the wire" .  It should be
> possible to implement in an OS that doesn't implement sockets but
> properly conforms to the spec.

Okay, this can be fixed if we add a section about re-use of the TCP
connection (don't).

>
>>>      - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably octets=
)
>> Yes, octets.

Yes, octets, will add.

>>
>>>      - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add value=
,
>>>        suggest dropping them.

With the replacement of TBDs with values these should 'boil off'.

>>>
>>>      - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent?
>> I would guess attached to a "Peer Termination" Signal... the other
>> side sent us something we don't understand.

That was the intention.  I will check the text to make sure this is clear.

>>
>>>      - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable length
>>>        field.
>>>
>>>      - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable lengt=
h
>>>        field.
>> You mean a "..." in the ascii art?
> yes.

... will be added.

Hope that helps?

Rick


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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 08:11:43 -0400
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16 
interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something 
different than the norm when refering to versions.

Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really generious 
say 10, version numbers?

Lou


On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor
> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
> >> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per current spec.
> >
> > I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, minor
> > octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!
> >
> > I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in the
> > initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definitely
> > do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are
> > special anyway.
> >
> > I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds special
> > case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *not*
> > using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port
> > combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP
> > versions ensure back compatibility.
>
> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes
> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.
>
> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.
>
> Henning Rogge
>



From nobody Mon Jun 22 05:19:32 2015
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Okay, with a 4bit/4bit split of a single octet, we have 0-15 major =0A=
versions and 0-15 minor versions.=0A=
=0A=
We already have implementations on version 0.14, and with a draft-15 =0A=
expected, do you suggest a 3bit/5bit split?  Why not just use =0A=
major.minor 8bits each?  We don't have to worry about bytes over the =0A=
local link.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On 22/06/15 13:11, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
> I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16=0A=
> interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something=0A=
> different than the norm when refering to versions.=0A=
>=0A=
> Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really generio=
us=0A=
> say 10, version numbers?=0A=
>=0A=
> Lou=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor=0A=
>> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:=0A=
>>>> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per current=
 spec.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, minor=
=0A=
>>> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in the=
=0A=
>>> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definitely=
=0A=
>>> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are=0A=
>>> special anyway.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds special=
=0A=
>>> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *not=
*=0A=
>>> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port=0A=
>>> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP=0A=
>>> versions ensure back compatibility.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes=0A=
>> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Henning Rogge=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Mon Jun 22 05:26:25 2015
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Oops, misread a bit, comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 22/06/15 12:00, Rick Taylor wrote:=0A=
> On 18/06/15 22:28, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
>> On 6/18/2015 8:38 AM, Henning Rogge wrote:=0A=
>>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:10 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:=0A=
>>>> Minor Issues:=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>       - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits.  This seems=
=0A=
>>>>         pretty small, particularly the data type field.  Given this is=
 a=0A=
>>>>         control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field=
=0A=
>>>>         would provide better "future proofing".=0A=
>>> So you would like to move BOTH the type and the length fields of the=0A=
>>> TLVs to 16 bit?=0A=
>> I'd probably enlarge data items and leave signal type alone.=0A=
>> Alternatively you can plan to do something ugly down the road, like type=
=0A=
>> 255 means look in value field for an extended type field - yuck.=0A=
>=0A=
> See comments above.=0A=
=0A=
I misread this as length field as 16bit.  I have no problem with a 16bit =
=0A=
signal/data item id, as it would allow more space for experimental =0A=
assignments.  But, we have yet to use more than 23 ids.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Mon Jun 22 05:35:55 2015
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 08:29:05 -0400
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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On June 22, 2015 8:19:32 AM Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

> Okay, with a 4bit/4bit split of a single octet, we have 0-15 major
> versions and 0-15 minor versions.
>
> We already have implementations on version 0.14, and with a draft-15
> expected, do you suggest a 3bit/5bit split?

This is in fact a unique (at least in my experience ) usage of version.  
IMO the dlep version for the RFCed version would be 1.

> Why not just use
> major.minor 8bits each?  We don't have to worry about bytes over the
> local link.

Yes, but you do need to worry about interoperability.  If the WG really 
wants to go down this path, you'll need some tight text defining how 
versioning and version mismatches are handled.

Lou
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
>
> On 22/06/15 13:11, Lou Berger wrote:
> > I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16
> > interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something
> > different than the norm when refering to versions.
> >
> > Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really generious
> > say 10, version numbers?
> >
> > Lou
> >
> >
> > On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor
> >> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
> >>>> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per current 
> spec.
> >>>
> >>> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, minor
> >>> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!
> >>>
> >>> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in the
> >>> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definitely
> >>> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are
> >>> special anyway.
> >>>
> >>> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds special
> >>> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *not*
> >>> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port
> >>> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP
> >>> versions ensure back compatibility.
> >>
> >> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes
> >> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.
> >>
> >> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.
> >>
> >> Henning Rogge
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>



From nobody Mon Jun 22 05:36:38 2015
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:36:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> On 22/06/15 13:11, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
>> I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16=0A=
>> interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something=0A=
>> different than the norm when refering to versions.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really generi=
ous=0A=
>> say 10, version numbers?=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Lou=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=
>>=0A=
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor=0A=
>>> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:=0A=
>>>>> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per curren=
t spec.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, mino=
r=0A=
>>>> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in the=
=0A=
>>>> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definitel=
y=0A=
>>>> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are=0A=
>>>> special anyway.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds special=
=0A=
>>>> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *no=
t*=0A=
>>>> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port=0A=
>>>> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP=0A=
>>>> versions ensure back compatibility.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes=0A=
>>> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.=0A=
=0A=
This sounds like a suggestion that the Peer_Init signals should use a =0A=
different header.=0A=
=0A=
Given there are data items that are only used during initialization, =0A=
would people be totally against a different wire format for these =0A=
packets rather than the signal format?=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Mon Jun 22 05:39:06 2015
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Okay, I see your point - I have spent too long working with FOSS =0A=
software where everything lurks at version 0.97 ;)=0A=
=0A=
If the WG are happy with a single octet of 1 for the final 'first' =0A=
version, then that's good by me.=0A=
=0A=
+1/-1 please people!=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 22/06/15 13:29, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> On June 22, 2015 8:19:32 AM Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> =
wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>> Okay, with a 4bit/4bit split of a single octet, we have 0-15 major=0A=
>> versions and 0-15 minor versions.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> We already have implementations on version 0.14, and with a draft-15=0A=
>> expected, do you suggest a 3bit/5bit split?=0A=
>=0A=
> This is in fact a unique (at least in my experience ) usage of version.=
=0A=
> IMO the dlep version for the RFCed version would be 1.=0A=
>=0A=
>> Why not just use=0A=
>> major.minor 8bits each?  We don't have to worry about bytes over the=0A=
>> local link.=0A=
>=0A=
> Yes, but you do need to worry about interoperability.  If the WG really=
=0A=
> wants to go down this path, you'll need some tight text defining how=0A=
> versioning and version mismatches are handled.=0A=
>=0A=
> Lou=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Cheers,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Rick=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On 22/06/15 13:11, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
>>> I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16=0A=
>>> interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something=0A=
>>> different than the norm when refering to versions.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really gener=
ious=0A=
>>> say 10, version numbers?=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Lou=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor=0A=
>>>> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:=0A=
>>>>>> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per curre=
nt=0A=
>> spec.=0A=
>>>>>=0A=
>>>>> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, min=
or=0A=
>>>>> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!=0A=
>>>>>=0A=
>>>>> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in th=
e=0A=
>>>>> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definite=
ly=0A=
>>>>> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are=
=0A=
>>>>> special anyway.=0A=
>>>>>=0A=
>>>>> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds specia=
l=0A=
>>>>> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *n=
ot*=0A=
>>>>> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port=0A=
>>>>> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP=
=0A=
>>>>> versions ensure back compatibility.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes=0A=
>>>> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> Henning Rogge=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Mon Jun 22 06:26:26 2015
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
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Bruno:

I would like to separate the readability of the draft, the details of =
the SLAs, and the passing of SLA information.    I will work with the =
authors on the readability of the draft and the SLA specification below. =
 I will work with the authors until they address these questions.=20

However, I want to address up-front passing the SLA information.  I =
agree that netconf/yang or I2RS could pass the SLA information.   =
However, this set of peers want to pass SLA in BGP.   After we have =
accepted passing link-state information in BGP between a set of peers, =
are you concerned about passing SLA information?  The SLA information is =
also sent between a few peers.=20

If this is the issue, I would like to have a discussion of your concerns =
on the IDR mail list.=20

Sue=20


-----Original Message-----
From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 9:29 AM
To: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; idr wg
Subject: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. =
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
Reviewer: Bruno Decraene
Review Date: 22/05/2015
IETF LC End Date: 02/03/2015
Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary:  I have significant concerns about this document and recommend =
that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.=20

(Or the chairs as I see that this document has not yet been passed to =
the ADs)

Comments:
In general, the readability of the document is acceptable but could be =
improved, both from a language and technical precision point of view. =
(examples below).
However, there are some normative parts of this Standard Track =
specification that I could not understand.

Major:
M1) The Introduction states
"In a multi-vendor network, translating SLAs into technology-specific =
and vendor-specific configuration requires to consider specificities of =
each vendor.
There does not exist any standard protocol to translate SLA agreements =
into technical clauses and configurations and thus both the steps of out =
of band learning of negotiated SLA and provisioning them in a vendor =
specific language can be complex and error-prone."
  =20
- I guess some would use NETCONF/YANG to address this. It could be =
questioned why BGP has been preferred. Especially since:
	- in the VPN context (using a lot of QoS and the uses cases described =
in the document) many customer connections use static routing rather =
than eBGP. Hence this specification would not be enough to distribute =
SLA and would require another protocol.
	- QoS is only one part of the configuration effort. Why using different =
protocols to configure different aspects?

- This may be related to draft-l3vpn-service-yang and the L3VPN Service =
Model WG (l3sm). May be some form of coordination would be beneficial.

M2)"The exception is where a BGP speaker, in the middle of an update =
path to the destination AS, aggregates prefixes. We will refer this =
middle BGP speaker, that aggregates routes, as an Aggregator. Aggregator =
is then required to insert original NLRI details in the optional =
advertiser field"
	=09
If you refer to the use of AS_SET, RFC6472 recommends against the use of =
AS_SET. So, I'm not sure that there is a need to add complexity in this =
specification in order to handle route aggregation.
If removed, "section 5.3 Aggregator" may also be removed.
=09
M4)
 "Traffic Class Description
        Ascii Description of the Traffic Class"

Should it be UTF-8?

M5) SLA definition
 It would be good to define what a SLA is. Especially since this whole =
goal of the draft is to advertise SLA in BGP. Citing an individual draft =
[CPP] is not enough to have an agreed on definition, especially for a =
STD track RFC.
 Since QoS is not new in the IETF, there is probably a document defining =
it (or using a more popular terminology).
Looking in google, I don't really see matches for "IETF SLA" (outside of =
documents written by the authors).
Wikipedia seems to give a quite different definition, much wider than =
diffserv specific parameters which seems to be the main point of this =
BGP attribute:
"A service-level agreement (SLA) is a part of a service =
contract[disambiguation needed] where a service is formally defined. =
Particular aspects of the service - scope, quality, responsibilities - =
are agreed between the service provider and the service user. A common =
feature of an SLA is a contracted delivery time (of the service or =
performance). As an example, Internet service providers and telcos will =
commonly include service level agreements within the terms of their =
contracts with customers to define the level(s) of service being sold in =
plain language terms. In this case the SLA will typically have a =
technical definition in terms of mean time between failures (MTBF), mean =
time to repair or mean time to recovery (MTTR); identifying which party =
is responsible for reporting faults or paying fees; responsibility for =
various data rates; throughput; jitter; or similar measurable details.."

M6)
 "   Traffic Class Service (optional),
        16-bit          =3D type of the field
        variable-length =3D based on type of the service"
	=09
Please specify the content of the "variable-length" field.=20
If it only contains the Data Type of the IPFIX Information Elements, I'm =
not sure how the encoding supports, on the receiving side, the skipping =
of unknown ElementID.
Given that I also don't see an end to end negotiation channel for the =
BGP speaker to known the capabilities of the BGP receiver, I don't see =
how the specification will support the introduction of new Traffic Class =
Services in the future.=09

M7) NLRI
I don't see the relation between the QoS attribute and the NLRI.
- Is the QoS attribute only applicable to the NLRI advertised? If so =
what is the relation with destinationIP* advertised in the classifier =
Element? Should they be restricted to more specifics of the advertised =
NLRI?
- Also the QoS attribute may instruct "to drop entire BGP update message =
[Note that it is an indication to drop entire update message, not only =
QoS attribute]". This means that the NLRI will not be propagated, hence =
routed, anymore, which seems strange. To preserve routing of the NLRI, =
do the QoS attribute require to advertise a less specific prefix (with =
no QoS attribute) in addition? Or to use ADD_PATH to advertise the NLRI =
multiple times (with & without the QoS attribute).

Possibly same question for the relation between the QoS attribute and =
the AFI/SAFI of the BGP UPDATE. Is the QoS attribute to be understood in =
the context of the AFI/SAFI or not? e.g. if the classifier element is =
the ipDiffServCodePoint does it match all protocols or only the one of =
the AFI/SAFI?

M8) Error handling
Current text says that error handling MAY use attribute discard or MAY =
use treat as withdraw.
This seems underspecified as one implementation would be free to do =
nothing, while another could do session reset. This would open many BGP =
session reset in real networks.
Please specific what must be done.=20
Besides, other part of the document provides some more =
specific/different error handling. e.g. "If there are more than one such =
Traffic Classes present then advertised SLA parameters MUST be ignored."
Finally, the spec needs to define when the new attribute is considered =
malformed.
On an editorial note, I would prefer a dedicate section related to error =
handling.

M9) security consideration may require some discussion.
"There is a potential for mis-behaved AS to advertise wrong SLA, =
stealing identity of another AS."
Agreed. But there are probably other attack vectors (e.g. modifying the =
attribute during propagation, setting parameters to instruct BGP to drop =
the message (as this seems alllowed by the specification)...)

"This resembles to problems already identified and resolved, in the =
routing world, thru reverse path forwarding check."
"Resembles" is not enough. "Resolved" is probably a bit quick.

"One proposal, inline to RPF, to resolve such threats is to have each =
BGP speaker node, in the forwarding path, perform reverse path check on =
source AS."
If this is a specification, it should be described in the document =
(quickly citing it in the security section is not enough).
It's also a bit short in term of specification. e.g. I don't see "source =
AS" in the forwarding path (neither in the packet nor in the FIB)

"Since we expect these messages to originate and distributed in the =
managed network, there should not be any risks for identity theft."
If you restrict the use of this specification/ATTRIBUTE in "managed =
network", this needs to be clarified from the beginning (and not at this =
very end of the document), and the specification should take measure to =
ensure that this attribute is not received from/leaked outside of this =
"managed network".
Defining "managed network" may also help, especially since the =
proposition involves multiple ASes and multiple organisations.
(otherwise, you need to handle the case when this attribute is used =
outside of "managed network" and therefore consider the security =
implications)

M10) IANA section is under specified.
e.g. you should:
- states the name of the registry that you want to create or update.
- states the name of the new entries in existing registries.
- define all your new registries. (e.g. you don't have ones for new QoS =
TLV subtypes (defined in =C2=A73.1), Optional Advertised id TLV, SLA =
event Type...)
- define the registration policy of those new registries.

Reading RFC5226 may help.


Minor (some not so minor):
m1) From an editorial standpoint, the document may benefit from an =
english language review.
  - Some sentences are hard to parse (at least for me). e.g. "The need =
to exchange SLA parameters between domains (Automated Systems (AS)), =
where in use-cases described in this document, BGP is a suitable =
protocol for inter-domain exchange [RFC4271][RFC4364].
  - Adding a full point "." at the end of each sentence may help the =
parsing.
  - IMHO some sentences could be rewritten to improve readability. e.g.
  OLD:=20
        highest order bit (bit 0) -
            It defines if update message MUST be dropped (if set to 1)
            without updating routing information base, when this is the
            last BGP receiver from the list of destination ASes this
            attribute is announced to, or MUST announce (if set to 0)
            further to BGP peers
  NEW
        highest order bit (bit 0) -
			This flags defines how update message must be handled by the last BGP =
receiver in the list of destination ASes.
            If set (1) update message MUST be dropped without updating =
routing information base.
			If cleared (0) update message MUST be further advertised to BGP =
peers.
           =20
  On a side note, at this point in the document, it's not crystal clear =
what you mean by "update message". The QoS Attribute TLV? The QoS BGP =
attribute? The BGP UPDATE message? In general, in the document, please =
use the protocols names of the messages/fields.
  - "SLA sub-type specific value field details." I guess you mean =
:s/specific/specifies.=20
 =20
m2)
OLD: Remaining bits are currently unused and MUST be set to 0
NEW: The lower-order seven bits of the Attribute Flags octet are unused. =
 They MUST be zero when sent and MUST be ignored when received.=20
(Proposed text is a copy/past from RFC 4271. You are free to use another =
text but please specify the behaviour on the receiving side as we have =
seen BGP session reset in the Internet which a much clearer sentence.)

m3) That's not specific to this document, but I would find useful to =
have the related implementation report draft be referenced in the =
informative reference section.

m4) "sub type Length" Please specify exactly what part of the message is =
covered by the length (as some IETF spec use the length of the value =
field, while some other use the length of the type+length+value fields.
=20
m5) "32-bit source AS (Advertiser)" The word "advertiser" may be =
misleading. (cf draft-hares-idr-update-attrib-low-bits-fix). RFC 4271 =
uses "Originating speaker" (SIDR seems also to use "Origin".
Multiple occurrences in the draft.

m6)  "0 =3D ignore Source and Destination AS list from this Value field.
            Instead refer to Source and Destination AS as defined by BGP
            message"
I'm not sure what is meant by the second sentence. Please use the =
specific names of BGP messages and fields.

m7) "format of the SLA message"
Giving names and number to figures could be considered.
So does adding the memory axis:
    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
=09
=09
m8) 		=09
"    Optional advertiser id total len
        16-bit Source address identifier (optional)."
	=09
I read this as the field "Optional advertiser id total len" contains a =
16-bit Source address identifier.
While this field probably contain the length of "something". Please =
check/clarify.=20

m9)=20
    "Optional Advertiser id TLV
        4-bit type"
=09
You need to specify the size of the "Length" field. Especially since you =
introduce a somewhat unusual size of the "Type field" and some people =
may assume that the size of the "length" field is of the same size =
(4-bit), while some others may believe its the usual 1-octet. 	=09

m10)"    Destination AS count
        32-bit destination AS count to take variable length AS list."
I guess you mean:
number of destination ASes
This field indicates the number of destination AS present in the =
Destination AS list

m11) "SLA Id"
The text under "SLA Id" mixes text related to "SLA Id " and text related =
to  "Content". Please split the text.

m12) I don't see a description of the filed "Content as per SLA Event"

m13)  "    SLA Length
        12-bits"
Please specify what is covered/measured by this length field.	=09

m14)
"    Direction
        0x1 =3D incoming, from destination AS towards source AS
        0x2 =3D outgoing, from source AS towards destination AS"
I find the terms "incoming" and "outcoming" a bit misleading. e.g.
the direction "from source AS towards destination AS" seems to be:
- outgoing in the source AS
- ingoing in the destination AS
	=09
m15)    "Traffic Class Descr Length
        08-bit, size of the length"
proposition  :s/size of the length/ length of XXX

m16) In section 3, I don't see the specification of the REQUEST SLA even =
type.
At the end of the document, it's said that "discussion of REQUEST =
message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out of the =
scope of this document." In which case, you should probably not specify =
a REQUEST SLA even type.
  =20
m19)
"Given IPFIX [RFC5102] has well defined identifier set for a large =
number of packet attributes, IPFIX IANA registry is =
"https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" chosen to specify packet =
classification attributes."
Sentence is hard to parse, which is an issue for a normative part.=09
The reference should probably be listed in the reference section.

"However, since not all identifiers from IPFIX would be applicable to =
this proposal, only a limited set identified here can be supported by =
BGP SLA exchange. Any new element identifier, in future, added to the =
IPFIX IANA registry does not automatically mean supported for this =
proposal."

- This probably calls for a IANA registry to identify which element =
identifier can be used.
- Text should clarify that the list of accepted identifiers is defined =
in the subsequent list (having no name and no number).
	=09
m20) section 3 is hard to read.
- IMO the document/section 3 would benefit from an section presenting an =
overview of the solution
- section 3 have a single subsection (3.1) hence the interest of using =
subsection is limited. Given the size of section 3 (10 pages), to =
improve readability I would suggest the use of multiples subsection.

m21)
      "The minimum policed unit (m) and maximum packet size (M)
      parameters have no relevance for the purpose of SLA exchange.
      Thus they MUST be ignored."

Why specifying and sending such parameters in BGP if they MUST be =
ignored by the receiver?	 =20
	 =20
m22)
" This rate indicates the minimum rate, measured in bytes of Layer 2 =
(L2) datagrams per second,"
I'm not sure why the Layer 2 size is used rather than the layer 3 size. =
As a consequence, you need to send additional information (L2_OVERHEAD) =
which may be not needed otherwise.
Draft cites RFC 2212 as the source of this TRAFFIC_CLASS_TSPEC =
parameter, and RFC 2212 use the IP datagram size.

m23)
"4.  Originating SLA Notification

   The QoS attribute to advertise SLA sub-type MUST be added by the
   originator of a BGP UPDATE message."
  =20
I guess you don't mean that advertising this new attribute is mandatory. =
So please rephrase (e.g. at least :s/MUST/MAY)  =20

m24)  " If a BGP node is capable of processing QoS attribute, it =
optionally MAY process the message."
   What message? The BGP UPDATE?
  =20
m25)   "BGP node MUST drop SLA related sub-type from the QoS attribute, =
if
   none of the AS from the destination list is in the forwarding path."

   There is no AS in the forwarding path. Please rephrase.
  =20
m26)   "5.2.  BGP Node not Capable of Processing QoS Attribute

   If the BGP node is not capable of processing QoS attribute, it MUST
   forward the QoS attribute message unaltered."

This section is completely useless. It should either be removed or at =
the minimum should not specify a behavior. e.g.
OLD: it MUST forward
NEW: as per RFC4271, it will

or should define what is meant by "processing QoS attribute". (my =
reading is "does not recognize")

m27) "If advertised QoS Attribute, inside an update message, is with a =
flag set indicating to drop that message, a receiver MUST drop message =
if it is the last receiver, in update path, that message is advertised =
to."
This is not extremely clear. Especially for a "MUST" behavior. Please =
rephrase using the protocols names of the messages/fields.

m28)"If the advertised SLA is from the next hop, in the reverse path, =
the receiver may implement advertised SLA for the whole link, the link =
could be physical or virtual link, associated with the next hop. "
  =20
I don't understand. Please rephrase. (e.g. which next-hop?, reverse path =
of what?)

"If NLRI advertised in update message is not of the next hop,"
I don't understand. Please rephrase.=20

m29)
   "For cases where if earlier messages have not reached the intended =
receiver yet, a re-signaling is required.  A receiver may intend to =
request an SLA message from the originator in such case.  Since BGP =
messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that advertised messages =
always reach intended receivers.  Thus discussion of REQUEST
   message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out of =
the scope of this document."
Some parsing issues.
The text seems to self contradict:
- "a re-signaling is required"
- "Since BGP messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that =
advertised messages always reach intended receivers."
=20
m30)
   "There are well-defined recommendations that exist for traffic class =
mapping between two technologies. "
  =20
   Please provides references.
  =20
m31)
"AS2 can advertise the same or a subset of that SLA to AS3 in the =
context of tunnel's ip address."
Which tunnel are you refering to?
=20

Nits:
N1) ID Nits reports 1 error (Obsolete normative reference)
N2) In a BGP context, "AS" stands for "Autonomous System" and not =
"Automated System"
N3) =20
"     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                                                               |
       ~              Traffic Class Elements count/values              ~
       |                                                               |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =
"
	  =20
I feel that the figure could be updated to more accurately represent =
both fields (length).	Something like  =20
	=09
	   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       | Traffic  Count|      Traffic Class values                     |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                               ~
       |                                                               |
       ~                                                               ~
       |                                                               |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

N4) In general for all figures, it's easier if the name of the legend / =
descriptive paragraph match the name in the figure.
e.g. =20
"Class Desc Len" in figure versus "Traffic Class Descr Length" in the =
legend "Advertiser id TLVs" in figure versus "Optional Advertiser id =
TLV" in the legend "Event" in figure versus "SLA Event Type" in the =
legend ...
=09
N5)	=09
"IPFIX IANA registry is "https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" "
May be added to the reference section.

N6) There is a mix of usage of "octet" and "byte". For consistency, only =
one should be chosen ("octet" IMHO)

N7)[CPP]      I-D.boucadair-connectivity-provisioning-profile"
why not citing RFC 7297 instead?


Regards,
Bruno

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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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On 22/06/15 14:33, Henning Rogge wrote:=0A=
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL=0A=
> <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:=0A=
>> I read Henning's proposal as being for all signals ("for TCP and UDP..."=
).=0A=
>>   Whether that's what he meant or not, I like the consistency and=0A=
>> simplicity of just having it in the same place for all signals.=0A=
>=0A=
> No, not for each signal... once for each incoming "network socket".=0A=
>=0A=
> So once for the UDP packet (before you give the rest to the signal=0A=
> processing code) and once for a TCP stream (before you start=0A=
> processing signals).=0A=
>=0A=
> I would not count them as part of the signals, more like a prefix=0A=
> before the signal(s) begin.=0A=
=0A=
I would definitely only want the version numbers once.  In each UDP =0A=
packet, and once on TCP connection start, not on every signal.=0A=
=0A=
The question is, how to I describe that?  Have an extra 1 octet header =0A=
used during initialization?  Once I start writing that, why not expand =0A=
it out to include all those data items only used during initialization?=0A=
=0A=
I'll come back with some ASCII art...=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> About the version number thing...=0A=
>=0A=
> do we really need the "major.minor" version number? We have broken=0A=
> compatibility LOTS of times during the "0.x" draft phase, why not use=0A=
> a one-byte version number and keep counting up?=0A=
=0A=
I think I'm hearing consensus for a single octet, version 1.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Mon Jun 22 07:19:47 2015
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:19:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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On 22/06/15 14:53, Henning Rogge wrote:=0A=
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rick Taylor=0A=
> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:=0A=
>>> No, not for each signal... once for each incoming "network socket".=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> So once for the UDP packet (before you give the rest to the signal=0A=
>>> processing code) and once for a TCP stream (before you start=0A=
>>> processing signals).=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> I would not count them as part of the signals, more like a prefix=0A=
>>> before the signal(s) begin.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> I would definitely only want the version numbers once.  In each UDP=0A=
>> packet, and once on TCP connection start, not on every signal.=0A=
>=0A=
> Agreed... up to 4 times until a DLEP session is completely working...=0A=
>=0A=
> one in the UDP packets each, and one at the head of the TCP stream (in=0A=
> both directions!)=0A=
>=0A=
>> The question is, how to I describe that?  Have an extra 1 octet header=
=0A=
>> used during initialization?  Once I start writing that, why not expand=
=0A=
>> it out to include all those data items only used during initialization?=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Whats about this?=0A=
>=0A=
>>   0                   1                   2                   3=0A=
>>   0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=0A=
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A=
>> |    Version    | DLEP signal(s) ...                            |=0A=
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
That has the advantage of simplicity!=0A=
=0A=
I tried to pack all the Peer_Init data items into a Peer_Init struct and =
=0A=
it just looked like a standard DLEP signal, but with strict ordering.=0A=
=0A=
Actually, I'm still scratching my head to work out what the problem with =
=0A=
the current method is:=0A=
=0A=
Byte(0) =3D Peer_Init/ACK=0A=
Bytes(1+2) =3D Length=0A=
Check length for sanity=0A=
Scan data items for Version, parse version.=0A=
=0A=
Is the problem that people are worried that the TCP connection they have =
=0A=
made is not to a DLEP peer that they have a) discovered, or b) =0A=
configured.  Remember this isn't some remote peer that has been met, =0A=
this is locally attached.=0A=
=0A=
If we were discussing a file format, then I can see the advantage of =0A=
having some identifier at a well-known offset, but I'm unconvinced in =0A=
this case.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Mon Jun 22 08:11:03 2015
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From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:54:35 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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--B_3517808074_51841535
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A few comments near the end...

On 6/22/15, 8:36 AM, "Rick Taylor" <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

>Comments inline...
>
>>
>> On 22/06/15 13:11, Lou Berger wrote:
>>> I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16
>>> interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something
>>> different than the norm when refering to versions.
>>>
>>> Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really
>>>generious
>>> say 10, version numbers?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>
>>> On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor
>>>> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per
>>>>>>current spec.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet,
>>>>>minor
>>>>> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!
>>>>>
>>>>> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in
>>>>>the
>>>>> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can
>>>>>definitely
>>>>> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are
>>>>> special anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds
>>>>>special
>>>>> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation
>>>>>*not*
>>>>> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port
>>>>> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP
>>>>> versions ensure back compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes
>>>> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.
>>>>
>>>> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.
>
>This sounds like a suggestion that the Peer_Init signals should use a
>different header.

I read Henning's proposal as being for all signals ("for TCP and UDP...").
 Whether that's what he meant or not, I like the consistency and
simplicity of just having it in the same place for all signals.

>
>Given there are data items that are only used during initialization,
>would people be totally against a different wire format for these
>packets rather than the signal format?

Do you mean having Peer Init and Peer Init Ack would use something other
than data items to express the fields they need?  That seems like a much
larger inconsistency to deal with than having the version number only in
some signals.  I'd rather keep the format of these signals consistent with
the rest.

>
>Rick

David

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From nobody Mon Jun 22 08:11:04 2015
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From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:58:19 +0000
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References: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> <CAGnRvuoH7JdB411rJ685Z+A+1W1u5t7+ZVrxA=h9CmNJSmRQxQ@mail.gmail.com> <558337FF.5040907@labn.net> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2AC391@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <CAGnRvuoNWb99=PDa4ras_0WgKc+X+oJFNMvB9UeQeAjLYBFs9w@mail.gmail.com> <14e1b2e5c60.2818.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2AC742@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <14e1b3e4698.2818.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2AD924@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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I'm fine with a one byte version with no concept of major/minor.

David

On 6/22/15, 8:38 AM, "Rick Taylor" <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

>Okay, I see your point - I have spent too long working with FOSS
>software where everything lurks at version 0.97 ;)
>
>If the WG are happy with a single octet of 1 for the final 'first'
>version, then that's good by me.
>
>+1/-1 please people!
>
>Rick
>
>On 22/06/15 13:29, Lou Berger wrote:
>>
>>
>> On June 22, 2015 8:19:32 AM Rick Taylor
>><rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, with a 4bit/4bit split of a single octet, we have 0-15 major
>>> versions and 0-15 minor versions.
>>>
>>> We already have implementations on version 0.14, and with a draft-15
>>> expected, do you suggest a 3bit/5bit split?
>>
>> This is in fact a unique (at least in my experience ) usage of version.
>> IMO the dlep version for the RFCed version would be 1.
>>
>>> Why not just use
>>> major.minor 8bits each?  We don't have to worry about bytes over the
>>> local link.
>>
>> Yes, but you do need to worry about interoperability.  If the WG really
>> wants to go down this path, you'll need some tight text defining how
>> versioning and version mismatches are handled.
>>
>> Lou
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22/06/15 13:11, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>> I have a really hard time understanding how there could be 2^16
>>>> interoperable versions of anything.  But maybe dlep means something
>>>> different than the norm when refering to versions.
>>>>
>>>> Can you/some explain a use case for more than a few, being really
>>>>generious
>>>> say 10, version numbers?
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On June 22, 2015 7:25:13 AM Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rick Taylor
>>>>> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per
>>>>>>>current
>>> spec.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet,
>>>>>>minor
>>>>>> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in
>>>>>>the
>>>>>> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can
>>>>>>definitely
>>>>>> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are
>>>>>> special anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds
>>>>>>special
>>>>>> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation
>>>>>>*not*
>>>>>> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port
>>>>>> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP
>>>>>> versions ensure back compatibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> We could maybe define that both for TCP and UDP the first two bytes
>>>>> are a version number... after this we begin decoding signals/tlvs.
>>>>>
>>>>> This sounds reasonable easy and consistent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henning Rogge
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>manet mailing list
>manet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:53:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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On 6/22/15, 10:19 AM, "Rick Taylor" <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

>On 22/06/15 14:53, Henning Rogge wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rick Taylor
>> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
>>>> No, not for each signal... once for each incoming "network socket".
>>>>
>>>> So once for the UDP packet (before you give the rest to the signal
>>>> processing code) and once for a TCP stream (before you start
>>>> processing signals).
>>>>
>>>> I would not count them as part of the signals, more like a prefix
>>>> before the signal(s) begin.
>>>
>>> I would definitely only want the version numbers once.  In each UDP
>>> packet, and once on TCP connection start, not on every signal.
>>
>> Agreed... up to 4 times until a DLEP session is completely working...
>>
>> one in the UDP packets each, and one at the head of the TCP stream (in
>> both directions!)
>>
>>> The question is, how to I describe that?  Have an extra 1 octet header
>>> used during initialization?  Once I start writing that, why not expand
>>> it out to include all those data items only used during initialization?
>>
>> Whats about this?
>>
>>>   0                   1                   2                   3
>>>   0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>> |    Version    | DLEP signal(s) ...                            |
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>
>That has the advantage of simplicity!

So let me see if I understand this proposal.  In the Peer Discovery and
Peer Offer signals, we'd add the version to the signal header.  When the
TCP connection is made, but before any signals are sent, each side sends
their one-byte version number.  After that, signals do not contain a
version.

If that's right, I count three different ways of handling the version.
The last one is a no-op, but still, different from the others.  I agree
that this would work, but it sure seems simpler to me to just put version
as a fixed part of the signal header of all signals.

David

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From nobody Mon Jun 22 11:08:49 2015
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
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Rick,

Thanks for the response.  See below.


On June 22, 2015 7:00:44 AM Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
wrote:

>...
> >>
> >>> ...
> >
> >>> Major Issues:
> >>>
> >>>      - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8
> >>>        bits.  While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measure,
> >>>        which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for
> >>>        larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. --
> >>>        We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain.
> >> On the other side the largest data item we have at the moment is 18
> >> bytes (IPv6 connection point). I am not really seeing lots of
> >> use-cases for large data items in DLEP.
> >
> > My experience in the past has been that unknown uses show up later and
> > make this an issue that needs to be solved by some ugly semantic
> > fragmentation, so if possible, I think it should be fixed.
> >
> >> Still, changing the TLV length to 16 bit would be trivial to do... but
> >> would this mean we also should change the signal length field to 4
> >> bytes?
> >
> > I wasn't suggesting this and I don't think so. 2^16 is a pretty big
> > message.
>
> There is nothing stopping an extension of the data item length to 2^16
> octets, but as Henning pointed out, that would suggest an increase of
> the signal length field to 2^32 (as signals 'contain' data items).

I think both being 2^16 is fine. It just means data items have a length
constraint that is less than the field size.  Nothing unique in that.

>
> The reason we haven't gone for 2^16 currently are:
>
> 1) We have no data items > ~20 octets.
>
> 2) We wanted to keep the data items and signals 'short and sweet' in
> form. An implementation could use small stack allocated buffers in
> embedded hardware rather than worrying about bigger blocks of memory.
>
> But: Adding big data items later would be more difficult.
>
> Note: There is no 'bits on the wire' performance concerns here, DLEP is
> over the local link.
>
> There is a third way:  If the length field in the signal is replaced
> with a count field, then both can be kept at 16 bits, but it makes
> parsing more complicated.
>
> Can I ask for some +1/-1's from the list on this one please?  It is not
> a major change to the document.
>

My experience is that usage of successful protocols go beyond what's
originally envisioned. So unless the constraint is important I'd "be
liberal" here and go for the larger size.

> >
> >>>      - Version number is currently defined as a data item.  This means a
> >>>        signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to
> >>>        discover what version is being used.  This precludes basic format
> >>>        changes to the protocol.  Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals
> >>>        should be special cased to include version in their formats.  (And
> >>>        shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below).
> >> Putting it into the UDP based discovery packets as a "header" could
> >> work... they are a bit special anyways (UDP) and we don't need to
> >> repeat the version later.
> >
> > Lots of options here. But recall UDP discovery is optional per current spec.
>
> I see no problem with shortening version to 16 bits (major octet, minor
> octet)  I never want to see DLEP version 65538.0!
>
> I see the point of holding the version number at a fixed offset in the
> initial messages of the protocol, and it is something we can definitely
> do for the UDP discovery messages, as Henning pointed out, they are
> special anyway.
>
> I am loathe to do it to the Initialization signals, as it adds special
> case code and text.  I think it is okay to allow an implementation *not*
> using discovery to expect a process on the reserved address/port
> combination to be using some version of DLEP, as long as later DLEP
> versions ensure back compatibility.
>
> ...
>
> >
> >>
> >>>      - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship
> >>>        with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined.  For example:
> >>>
> >>>        o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in a
> >>>          way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior
> >>>          (close TCP before ACK is received).
> >> Maybe this should be "closing the DLEP session and not using the
> >> active TCP session anymore" ?
> >>
> >>>        o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP
> >>>          session be reused or must it be closed too?
> >> No, I think the DLEP strategy is "start from scratch"... when you
> >> terminate a DLEP session you go back to the discovery mechanism to
> >> start a new one.
> >
> > Whichever reasonable approach is taken it just needs to be explicitly
> > documented.
>
> We favour a start from scratch approach.  But it does need to explicitly
> stated somewhere.
>

WFM, just needs to be documented.

> >
> >>
> >>>      - There is no transaction model defined.  For example, it's
> >>>        completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at a
> >>>        time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps
> >>>        there are no restrictions.  This needs to be explicit.
> >> I think we don't need restrictions here because of TCP. The other side
> >> WILL answer to eachof our signals or the TCP session will be
> >> terminated.
> >
> > I don't think TCP helps (or hurts here).  This is a question of what
> > different implementations will choose to do / support WRT signals of the
> > same or different types being processed in parallel.
>
> Particularly with the Request signals, there is a weakness in the text
> about transactions that needs to be addressed.  This is one of those
> areas where those involved early on have a clear idea, but it isn't
> clear in the text.
>

thanks

> >
> >>>      - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP?  Retries
> >>>        aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being used.
> >> We want to know when the connection between radio and router is
> >> lost... this can take a LONG time when the router is mostly listening
> >> to the Radio (TCP timeout is much to long for our use-case), so we use
> >> the Heartbeats.
> >
> > This comment relates to the per signal acks and retries.  I didn't
> > include the connection failure detection covered by the heartbeat signal
> > in this comment.
>
> The retries and heartbeats are to detect a failure in the process using
> the TCP connection, rather than a failure of the connection itself.
>  From experience in the MANET space, complex routers and radios can
> crash internally/lose control plane long before the TCP session times out.
>

Again, this is *not* the point I raised.


> >
> >>>      - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really
> >>>        clear.  It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliable
> >>>        transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. Of
> >>>        course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others
> >>>        should be clear.  For example, in section 7.10, why would there be
> >>>        a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an
> >>>        error?
> >> The DLEP "ACK Signals" are more a response to a "request signal"...
> >> transaction acknowledgement and result.
>
> ACKs are intended as an processing acknowledgement rather than a receipt
> acknowledgement, i.e. "I have done/not done what you asked".
>
Okay, I think calling them something like responses rather than acks
would clarify this.

And the purpose of retries is???

> >>
> >>>      - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there really
> >>>        none?  For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limit
> >>>        Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle
> >>>        the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go
> >>>        down.
> >> Just send as fast as you want and let TCP (buffer) take care of the
> >> rest... both Destination up/down are small signals, so it shouldn't be
> >> a problem.
> > The assumptions behind this "shouldn't part of this" is what should be
> > discussed...
>
> Yes, there is no text about rate limiting updates.  Not from a TCP
> datarate perspective, but from a processing perspective.  We don't
> really want to predict the performance of processors by stating hard
> rules on rate-limiting.
>
> This only applies to Destination_Updates, as everything else is
> throttled by waiting for ACKs. (Made clearer when some text on
> transactions is put in)
>

Seems like some discussion on this is warranted.

> >
> >> And you are only allowed to send Destination Updates when
> >> you received the Destination ACK.
> >
> > Where is this restriction specified?  I don't recall seeing it.
>
> It isn't mentioned, but is expected.  The text will have to be improved.
>   I think there is a need for a section on transactions.
>
> >
> >>>      - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to
> >>>        define their own 'heuristics'.  Some of these seem unnecessary due
> >>>        to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protocol
> >>>        should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent
> >>>        behavior from implementations.
> >> No comment on this one.
>
> As with rate-limiting, this is a can of worms we have intentionally not
> opened.  We will have a careful look at every place heuristics are
> mentioned and when possible suggest some sensible defaults.
>

I think this will be an interoperability and conformance testing
nightmare. Also, keep in mind a standard helps users know what they
should expect from an implementation / vendor and this leaves major
behaviors wide open .

> >>
> >>>      - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental
> >>>        Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8).  Both seem to support for
> >>>        optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values,
> >>>        why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.
> >>>        o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between
> >>>          these?
> >>>        o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized?
> >> As far as I understand this "Experimental Definition" is something you
> >> use in the lab...  you can have a maximum of one experiment for DLEP,
> > Interesting -- where is this restriction defined?  Section 7.3 says
> > that "one or more" are allowed.
> >
> >> so this is more to make sure your special "work in progress" code does
> >> not collide too hard with a standard radio/router.
> > It's pretty unclear from the spec how experimental definitions are to be
> > used -- or if they belong in standards track document at all.
> >
> >> On the other side you can support as many "Extensions" as you want...
> >> and I expect this WG to standardize a few additional of them after
> >> DLEP becomes a RFC.
> > okay, look forward to seeing an IANA allocation policy for these.
>
> I have covered this in another mail, so I won't repeat. (see Section 11.6)
>

okay, will go looking for it.

> >
> >>
> >>>      - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items.  The
> >>>        definition related to these basically says a resources is "An
> >>>        8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of
> >>>        resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.".  If I were
> >>>        implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce,
> >>>        update or use this information.  I think there is some missing
> >>>        informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these
> >>>        formats.
> >> My only idea about them would be "battery level"... not sure how
> >> useful it is to query the radio about this.
> >
> > some context would be great.  -- sounds like its akin to a routing metric.
> >
> >>>      - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar
> >>>        problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if
> >>>        there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link quality
> >>>        that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is just
> >>>        passed for as monitoring information.  Either way, this needs to
> >>>        be clarified.
> >> It seems the radio vendors really like this field. The reason why we
> >> made "max/current link speed" mandatory is to make RLQ at least
> >> reasonable useful.
> > same comment.
>
> The Resources and RLQ metrics are there as DLEP builds upon the work
> done in RFC5578.  I have always considered Resources to be some
> indication of 'work-load' on the modem rather than explicit battery
> level.  Perhaps the descriptive text needs to be expanded.
>

yes, please.

>
> >>>      - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the one
> >>>        documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged,
> >>>        but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of
> >>>        credits relative to the data plane.
> >>>
> >> No comment on this one.
>
> This is one for Stan.  Credit-windowing is his baby.
>
> >>
> >>>      - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
> >>>        optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
> >>>        allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
> >>>        issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.
> >> I think "no status TLV" is always "everything is fine"...
>
> We are currently happy with the way this works.  If an optional data
> item is missing, then the default value is used.  This should be
> explicitly stated whenever an optional data item can be omitted.

options make conformance and interoperability testing much harder.  In
general, if they don't serve a specific purpose options *should* be
eliminated.  Too many options have dead-ended protocols in the past.

>
> >>
> >>>      - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirements
> >>>        on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no
> >>>        ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within
> >>>        Signals.
> >> I think is exactly as most (all?) of us have implemented it... no
> >> ordering required.
> >
> > Cool, then this is just a simple matter of documenting "what everyone
> > implements".
>
> Section 6 states: "There is no restriction on the order of data items
> following a signal"
>
Okay missed that.  Certainly for version number this is probably not the
best answer. For everything else, don't really have an opinion.

> >
> >>>      - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a
> >>>        signal isn't always clear.  For example are 0/1/N copies of a
> >>>        particular Data Item required/allowed.  Using something like ABNF
> >>>        would really help formalize and clarify this.
> >> Can you give an example where this is undefined? As far as I can see
> >> the draft explicitly states what and how often you can use TLVs per
> >> signal.
> >
> > I think the experimental data item discussion above is a perfect
> > example.  You though only one is allowed the spec is vague in section
> > 8.8 and explicit in 7.3.  -- Narrative lacks precision and is easily
> > misread.  Something like ABNF is far more transparent.
>
> Section 6 states: "...the multiplicity of duplicate data items is
> defined by the definition of the signal declared by the type in the
> signal header."
>
> We have attempted to enumerate the multiplicity of every data item in
> each signal.  If we have missed one please point it out.
>
> Section 3.3 states: "Multiple Experimental Definition data items MAY
> appear in the Peer Initialization/Peer Initialization ACK sequence."
>
> I have tried to define ABNF, but I struggle with defining the
> multiplicity and optional ordering rules, any advice gratefully received.
>

I have done far too much ABNF so to me this isn't too hard.  Unicast me
what you have and I'll provide feedback.

> >
> >>>      - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrative
> >>>        text, normative / required processing procedures, and message
> >>>        formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it just
> >>>        makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol.
> >>>        What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate
> >>>        (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for
> >>>        omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error
> >>>        processing).  Specific examples are included above and below.  It
> >>>        would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior is
> >>>        defined just once and in a consistent way.
>
> This is a hangover of the major rewrites that have occurred over the
> last 14 versions.  Let us have another pass at the text and we can see
> what we can do.
>
>
> >>>
> >>>      - The security consideration section is inadequate.  This section
> >>>        should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user
> >>>        traffic.  It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possible
> >>>        exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol.  rfc6952,
> >>>        and the protocols it references can serve as examples.
> >> DLEP is only on the local ethernet connection between the radio and
> >> the router... it is NOT spoken between different router/radio
> >> components of a network. RFC6952 is talking about securing
> >> communication over the routed network.
> >
> > This is a scoping of the problem that should go into a security the
> > section.   RFC4204 covers a similar scoped protocol, although it's
> > security considerations section is quite dated.
>
> We have done no analysis of a malicious peer in a DLEP session as the
> nature of the link-local connectivity made it seem unnecessary.  Are you
> suggesting that we need to address this?


I'm suggesting that the IESG/Security review will block this document
until there is a substantive Security Consideration section.  I've just
pointed to some examples that may help construct one.

...> >
>
> >
> >>>      - Section 2: Assumptions
> >>>        This section includes informative and normative text so is more
> >>>        than just Assumptions.  Personally, I'd remove all normative text
> >>>        from the section.
> >>>
> >>>      - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation.
> >> UDP header formation?
> > format.  I.e., what addresses and ports must be used.
> >
>
> Does Section 5.1 not cover this?
>

No. Not every implementation may use sockets.  Also much of the text
relates to TCP socket init.  I think a sentence that says something like:
For the Peer Discovery signals the IP destination address MUST be set to
the DLEP link-local multicast address and port (TBA), there is no
restriction on the UDP source port. For Peer Offer signals the IP
destination address and port MUST be set to the source IP address and
Port contained in the received Peer Discovery signal, the source IP
address and port MUST be set to the DLEP port.  For both signals, the
source IP address MUST be set to the IP address that will be used in
subsequent DLEP TCP connections.


> >>
> >>>      - Sections 8.10->8.17.  Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnets
> >>>        in destination update signals?
> >> I think we talked about this and the reason was that subnets are only
> >> as "fixed settings" supported.
> > I'm sorry I don't understand your response.  Are you saying subnet
> > reconfiguration requires a session reset?
>
> Subnet reconfiguration requires a session restart.

fine.  this needs to be explicit.

>
> >
> >>>      - The IANA Considerations sections must follow RFC2360.
> >>>      - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in
> >>>        the document.  (The document currently has many TBDs that should
> >>>        be replaced.)
> >> I didn't know about this, I have always seen Drafts with TBDx...
> >
> > TBD is right for existing registries.  For new registries IANA doesn't
> > have any policies or guidance.  This comes from the document that
> > establish the registries, i.e, this one.
>
> We shall suggest some values.
Again, whatever for new registries the document defining the registry
*must* define initial values.

>  Probably from the existing interoperable
> implementations.

Makes sense.

>
> >
> >>
> >>>      - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.:
> >>>      The registry should be established with registration policies of
> >>>      "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and
> >>>      "Specification Required" (for other documents). The designated
> >>>      expert is any current <fill-in> WG chair.
>
> This is one for Stan.
>
> >>>
> >>> Nits:
> >>>
> >>>      - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for
> >>>        what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in
> >>>        other protocols.  It's probably too late to change this, but I
> >>>        think the introduction of unique terminology is counter
> >>>        productive
>
> TLVs was rejected as a name, as both signals and data items are
> Type-Length-Value encoded.  Signals was selected as they are 'events'
> rather than RPCs, and 

I don't follow -- but doesn't really matter as topic seems to be OBE.

>it might be a bit late to change the terminology.


>
> >>>
> >>>      - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there are
> >>>        words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look at
> >>>        http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some
> >>>        suggestions.
>
> We will have another pass.  Can you point out some examples please?

Just a few picked at random-- *not* the full list:

Section 3. the first two MUSTs are duplicative, the same requirement is
listed for a third time in the third paragraph with a lower case
"required".  The "OPTION" and "MAY" clauses are duplicative.

Section 4: "DLEP Does NOT specify..."

Section 7.3: "there is NO support"


> ...

>
> Hope that helps?
>
Yes.  Thanks.

Lou

> Rick
>



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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Shitanshu Shah (svshah)" <svshah@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 16:31:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
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Bruno:=20

Thank you for the excellent comments.   I recalled your comments at the =
2012 IETF.  This draft needs to be considered in a focuses usage of 2 =
peers.  All other assumptions need to be carefully reworked. =20

I will have the authors expand the Deployment considerations to consider =
the pros/cons of netconf, I2RS, and BGP-flowspec.   I agree that the QoS =
consideration is only part of the consideration for this draft.=20

Once the authors have completed their revisions to my satisfaction, this =
draft will be resent to the IDR list for approval.  As part of that =
second approval process, I would like to  summarize your concerns for =
the IDR list.  Would you point out  which of your messages or =
presentations should be considered in that discussion?=20

Sue Hares

-----Original Message-----
From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:29 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; 'idr wg'; 'Shitanshu Shah (svshah)'; =
rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05

Hi Susan,

> From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] > Sent: Monday, June 22,=20
> 2015 3:26 PM
>=20
> Bruno:
>=20
> I would like to separate the readability of the draft, the details of =
the SLAs, and
> the passing of SLA information.    I will work with the authors on the =
readability
> of the draft and the SLA specification below.  I will work with the=20
> authors until they address these questions.

Excellent. Thanks.
=20
> However, I want to address up-front passing the SLA information.  I =
agree that
> netconf/yang or I2RS could pass the SLA information.   However, this =
set of
> peers want to pass SLA in BGP.   After we have accepted passing =
link-state
> information in BGP between a set of peers, are you concerned about=20
> passing SLA information?  The SLA information is also sent between a =
few peers.

A priori, as of today, I would feel that Netconf looks like a more =
suitable protocol to configure QoS parameters on nodes (assuming that =
the IETF specify a YANG module for this), especially for the Point to =
point case (4.1.1.  SLA Advertisement for Point-to-Point Connection).
In theory, BGP may be interesting to propagate the QoS parameters along =
all the BGP speakers on the path (4.1.2.  SLA Advertisement for =
Destination AS Multiple Hops Away). However:
- I don't have enough knowledge on QoS to evaluate on how much it makes =
sense to configure the same QoS parameters on all the nodes of the MP2P =
trees set up by BGP (especially since this document advertise some L2 =
specific information while the L2 may be different along the path)
- The uses cases described in "7.  Deployment Considerations" seems to =
only use QoS configuration on a point to point way
- Possibly, using BGP flowspec may have been an interesting option to =
consider
=20
However, you are right that the IDR WG has taken this work item, so the =
comment is probably way too late for BGP. And at that time (I remember =
having discussed this draft in Paris (2012)) Netconf was less mature or =
spread across the IETF. The question may still be valid for others =
routing protocols as the main use case indicated is "Provider to =
advertise contracted SLA parameters to Customer Edge (CE)", and BGP may =
not be the only protocol used in this use case.

> If this is the issue, I would like to have a discussion of your =
concerns on the IDR mail list.

Note that IDR is in copy of my comments.

Bruno

>=20
> Sue
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> bruno.decraene@orange.com
> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 9:29 AM
> To: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-sla-=20
> exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; idr wg
> Subject: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this=20
> draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or=20
> routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG=20
> review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is =

> to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about=20
> the Routing Directorate, please see=20
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>=20
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs,=20
> it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other=20
> IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them=20
> through discussion or by updating the draft.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
> Reviewer: Bruno Decraene
> Review Date: 22/05/2015
> IETF LC End Date: 02/03/2015
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>=20
> Summary:  I have significant concerns about this document and=20
> recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the =
authors.
>=20
> (Or the chairs as I see that this document has not yet been passed to=20
> the ADs)
>=20
> Comments:
> In general, the readability of the document is acceptable but could be =

> improved, both from a language and technical precision point of view.
> (examples below).
> However, there are some normative parts of this Standard Track=20
> specification that I could not understand.
>=20
> Major:
> M1) The Introduction states
> "In a multi-vendor network, translating SLAs into technology-specific=20
> and vendor-specific configuration requires to consider specificities=20
> of each vendor.
> There does not exist any standard protocol to translate SLA agreements =

> into technical clauses and configurations and thus both the steps of=20
> out of band learning of negotiated SLA and provisioning them in a=20
> vendor specific language can be complex and error-prone."
>=20
> - I guess some would use NETCONF/YANG to address this. It could be=20
> questioned why BGP has been preferred. Especially since:
> 	- in the VPN context (using a lot of QoS and the uses cases described =

> in the document) many customer connections use static routing rather=20
> than eBGP. Hence this specification would not be enough to distribute=20
> SLA and would require another protocol.
> 	- QoS is only one part of the configuration effort. Why using=20
> different protocols to configure different aspects?
>=20
> - This may be related to draft-l3vpn-service-yang and the L3VPN=20
> Service Model WG (l3sm). May be some form of coordination would be =
beneficial.
>=20
> M2)"The exception is where a BGP speaker, in the middle of an update=20
> path to the destination AS, aggregates prefixes. We will refer this=20
> middle BGP speaker, that aggregates routes, as an Aggregator.=20
> Aggregator is then required to insert original NLRI details in the =
optional advertiser field"
>=20
> If you refer to the use of AS_SET, RFC6472 recommends against the use=20
> of AS_SET. So, I'm not sure that there is a need to add complexity in=20
> this specification in order to handle route aggregation.
> If removed, "section 5.3 Aggregator" may also be removed.
>=20
> M4)
>  "Traffic Class Description
>         Ascii Description of the Traffic Class"
>=20
> Should it be UTF-8?
>=20
> M5) SLA definition
>  It would be good to define what a SLA is. Especially since this whole =

> goal of the draft is to advertise SLA in BGP. Citing an individual=20
> draft [CPP] is not enough to have an agreed on definition, especially =
for a STD track RFC.
>  Since QoS is not new in the IETF, there is probably a document=20
> defining it (or using a more popular terminology).
> Looking in google, I don't really see matches for "IETF SLA" (outside=20
> of documents written by the authors).
> Wikipedia seems to give a quite different definition, much wider than=20
> diffserv specific parameters which seems to be the main point of this =
BGP attribute:
> "A service-level agreement (SLA) is a part of a service=20
> contract[disambiguation needed] where a service is formally defined.=20
> Particular aspects of the service
> - scope, quality, responsibilities - are agreed between the service=20
> provider and the service user. A common feature of an SLA is a=20
> contracted delivery time (of the service or performance). As an=20
> example, Internet service providers and telcos will commonly include=20
> service level agreements within the terms of their contracts with=20
> customers to define the level(s) of service being sold in plain=20
> language terms. In this case the SLA will typically have a technical=20
> definition in terms of mean time between failures (MTBF), mean time to =

> repair or mean time to recovery (MTTR); identifying which party is=20
> responsible for reporting faults or paying fees; responsibility for =
various data rates; throughput; jitter; or similar measurable details.."
>=20
> M6)
>  "   Traffic Class Service (optional),
>         16-bit          =3D type of the field
>         variable-length =3D based on type of the service"
>=20
> Please specify the content of the "variable-length" field.
> If it only contains the Data Type of the IPFIX Information Elements,=20
> I'm not sure how the encoding supports, on the receiving side, the=20
> skipping of unknown ElementID.
> Given that I also don't see an end to end negotiation channel for the=20
> BGP speaker to known the capabilities of the BGP receiver, I don't see =

> how the specification will support the introduction of new Traffic=20
> Class Services in the future.
>=20
> M7) NLRI
> I don't see the relation between the QoS attribute and the NLRI.
> - Is the QoS attribute only applicable to the NLRI advertised? If so=20
> what is the relation with destinationIP* advertised in the classifier=20
> Element? Should they be restricted to more specifics of the advertised =
NLRI?
> - Also the QoS attribute may instruct "to drop entire BGP update=20
> message [Note that it is an indication to drop entire update message,=20
> not only QoS attribute]". This means that the NLRI will not be=20
> propagated, hence routed, anymore, which seems strange. To preserve=20
> routing of the NLRI, do the QoS attribute require to advertise a less=20
> specific prefix (with no QoS attribute) in addition? Or to use=20
> ADD_PATH to advertise the NLRI multiple times (with & without the QoS =
attribute).
>=20
> Possibly same question for the relation between the QoS attribute and=20
> the AFI/SAFI of the BGP UPDATE. Is the QoS attribute to be understood=20
> in the context of the AFI/SAFI or not? e.g. if the classifier element=20
> is the ipDiffServCodePoint does it match all protocols or only the one =

> of the AFI/SAFI?
>=20
> M8) Error handling
> Current text says that error handling MAY use attribute discard or MAY =

> use treat as withdraw.
> This seems underspecified as one implementation would be free to do=20
> nothing, while another could do session reset. This would open many=20
> BGP session reset in real networks.
> Please specific what must be done.
> Besides, other part of the document provides some more=20
> specific/different error handling. e.g. "If there are more than one=20
> such Traffic Classes present then advertised SLA parameters MUST be =
ignored."
> Finally, the spec needs to define when the new attribute is considered =

> malformed.
> On an editorial note, I would prefer a dedicate section related to=20
> error handling.
>=20
> M9) security consideration may require some discussion.
> "There is a potential for mis-behaved AS to advertise wrong SLA,=20
> stealing identity of another AS."
> Agreed. But there are probably other attack vectors (e.g. modifying=20
> the attribute during propagation, setting parameters to instruct BGP=20
> to drop the message (as this seems alllowed by the specification)...)
>=20
> "This resembles to problems already identified and resolved, in the=20
> routing world, thru reverse path forwarding check."
> "Resembles" is not enough. "Resolved" is probably a bit quick.
>=20
> "One proposal, inline to RPF, to resolve such threats is to have each=20
> BGP speaker node, in the forwarding path, perform reverse path check=20
> on source AS."
> If this is a specification, it should be described in the document=20
> (quickly citing it in the security section is not enough).
> It's also a bit short in term of specification. e.g. I don't see=20
> "source AS" in the forwarding path (neither in the packet nor in the=20
> FIB)
>=20
> "Since we expect these messages to originate and distributed in the=20
> managed network, there should not be any risks for identity theft."
> If you restrict the use of this specification/ATTRIBUTE in "managed=20
> network", this needs to be clarified from the beginning (and not at=20
> this very end of the document), and the specification should take=20
> measure to ensure that this attribute is not received from/leaked =
outside of this "managed network".
> Defining "managed network" may also help, especially since the=20
> proposition involves multiple ASes and multiple organisations.
> (otherwise, you need to handle the case when this attribute is used=20
> outside of "managed network" and therefore consider the security=20
> implications)
>=20
> M10) IANA section is under specified.
> e.g. you should:
> - states the name of the registry that you want to create or update.
> - states the name of the new entries in existing registries.
> - define all your new registries. (e.g. you don't have ones for new=20
> QoS TLV subtypes (defined in =C2=A73.1), Optional Advertised id TLV, =
SLA=20
> event Type...)
> - define the registration policy of those new registries.
>=20
> Reading RFC5226 may help.
>=20
>=20
> Minor (some not so minor):
> m1) From an editorial standpoint, the document may benefit from an=20
> english language review.
>   - Some sentences are hard to parse (at least for me). e.g. "The need =

> to exchange SLA parameters between domains (Automated Systems (AS)),=20
> where in use-cases described in this document, BGP is a suitable=20
> protocol for inter-domain exchange [RFC4271][RFC4364].
>   - Adding a full point "." at the end of each sentence may help the =
parsing.
>   - IMHO some sentences could be rewritten to improve readability. =
e.g.
>   OLD:
>         highest order bit (bit 0) -
>             It defines if update message MUST be dropped (if set to 1)
>             without updating routing information base, when this is =
the
>             last BGP receiver from the list of destination ASes this
>             attribute is announced to, or MUST announce (if set to 0)
>             further to BGP peers
>   NEW
>         highest order bit (bit 0) -
> 			This flags defines how update message must be handled by the last=20
> BGP receiver in the list of destination ASes.
>             If set (1) update message MUST be dropped without updating =

> routing information base.
> 			If cleared (0) update message MUST be further advertised to BGP=20
> peers.
>=20
>   On a side note, at this point in the document, it's not crystal=20
> clear what you mean by "update message". The QoS Attribute TLV? The =
QoS BGP attribute?
> The BGP UPDATE message? In general, in the document, please use the=20
> protocols names of the messages/fields.
>   - "SLA sub-type specific value field details." I guess you mean=20
> :s/specific/specifies.
>=20
> m2)
> OLD: Remaining bits are currently unused and MUST be set to 0
> NEW: The lower-order seven bits of the Attribute Flags octet are =
unused.
> They MUST be zero when sent and MUST be ignored when received.
> (Proposed text is a copy/past from RFC 4271. You are free to use=20
> another text but please specify the behaviour on the receiving side as =

> we have seen BGP session reset in the Internet which a much clearer=20
> sentence.)
>=20
> m3) That's not specific to this document, but I would find useful to=20
> have the related implementation report draft be referenced in the=20
> informative reference section.
>=20
> m4) "sub type Length" Please specify exactly what part of the message=20
> is covered by the length (as some IETF spec use the length of the=20
> value field, while some other use the length of the type+length+value =
fields.
>=20
> m5) "32-bit source AS (Advertiser)" The word "advertiser" may be =
misleading.
> (cf draft-hares-idr-update-attrib-low-bits-fix). RFC 4271 uses=20
> "Originating speaker" (SIDR seems also to use "Origin".
> Multiple occurrences in the draft.
>=20
> m6)  "0 =3D ignore Source and Destination AS list from this Value =
field.
>             Instead refer to Source and Destination AS as defined by =
BGP
>             message"
> I'm not sure what is meant by the second sentence. Please use the=20
> specific names of BGP messages and fields.
>=20
> m7) "format of the SLA message"
> Giving names and number to figures could be considered.
> So does adding the memory axis:
>     0                   1                   2                   3
>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>=20
>=20
> m8)
> "    Optional advertiser id total len
>         16-bit Source address identifier (optional)."
>=20
> I read this as the field "Optional advertiser id total len" contains a =

> 16-bit Source address identifier.
> While this field probably contain the length of "something". Please=20
> check/clarify.
>=20
> m9)
>     "Optional Advertiser id TLV
>         4-bit type"
>=20
> You need to specify the size of the "Length" field. Especially since=20
> you introduce a somewhat unusual size of the "Type field" and some=20
> people may assume that the size of the "length" field is of the same=20
> size (4-bit), while some others may believe its the usual 1-octet.
>=20
> m10)"    Destination AS count
>         32-bit destination AS count to take variable length AS list."
> I guess you mean:
> number of destination ASes
> This field indicates the number of destination AS present in the=20
> Destination AS list
>=20
> m11) "SLA Id"
> The text under "SLA Id" mixes text related to "SLA Id " and text=20
> related to "Content". Please split the text.
>=20
> m12) I don't see a description of the filed "Content as per SLA Event"
>=20
> m13)  "    SLA Length
>         12-bits"
> Please specify what is covered/measured by this length field.
>=20
> m14)
> "    Direction
>         0x1 =3D incoming, from destination AS towards source AS
>         0x2 =3D outgoing, from source AS towards destination AS"
> I find the terms "incoming" and "outcoming" a bit misleading. e.g.
> the direction "from source AS towards destination AS" seems to be:
> - outgoing in the source AS
> - ingoing in the destination AS
>=20
> m15)    "Traffic Class Descr Length
>         08-bit, size of the length"
> proposition  :s/size of the length/ length of XXX
>=20
> m16) In section 3, I don't see the specification of the REQUEST SLA =
even type.
> At the end of the document, it's said that "discussion of REQUEST=20
> message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out of=20
> the scope of this document." In which case, you should probably not=20
> specify a REQUEST SLA even type.
>=20
> m19)
> "Given IPFIX [RFC5102] has well defined identifier set for a large=20
> number of packet attributes, IPFIX IANA registry is=20
> "https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" chosen to specify packet=20
> classification attributes."
> Sentence is hard to parse, which is an issue for a normative part.
> The reference should probably be listed in the reference section.
>=20
> "However, since not all identifiers from IPFIX would be applicable to=20
> this proposal, only a limited set identified here can be supported by=20
> BGP SLA exchange. Any new element identifier, in future, added to the=20
> IPFIX IANA registry does not automatically mean supported for this =
proposal."
>=20
> - This probably calls for a IANA registry to identify which element=20
> identifier can be used.
> - Text should clarify that the list of accepted identifiers is defined =

> in the subsequent list (having no name and no number).
>=20
> m20) section 3 is hard to read.
> - IMO the document/section 3 would benefit from an section presenting=20
> an overview of the solution
> - section 3 have a single subsection (3.1) hence the interest of using =

> subsection is limited. Given the size of section 3 (10 pages), to=20
> improve readability I would suggest the use of multiples subsection.
>=20
> m21)
>       "The minimum policed unit (m) and maximum packet size (M)
>       parameters have no relevance for the purpose of SLA exchange.
>       Thus they MUST be ignored."
>=20
> Why specifying and sending such parameters in BGP if they MUST be=20
> ignored by the receiver?
>=20
> m22)
> " This rate indicates the minimum rate, measured in bytes of Layer 2=20
> (L2) datagrams per second,"
> I'm not sure why the Layer 2 size is used rather than the layer 3=20
> size. As a consequence, you need to send additional information=20
> (L2_OVERHEAD) which may be not needed otherwise.
> Draft cites RFC 2212 as the source of this TRAFFIC_CLASS_TSPEC=20
> parameter, and RFC 2212 use the IP datagram size.
>=20
> m23)
> "4.  Originating SLA Notification
>=20
>    The QoS attribute to advertise SLA sub-type MUST be added by the
>    originator of a BGP UPDATE message."
>=20
> I guess you don't mean that advertising this new attribute is=20
> mandatory. So please rephrase (e.g. at least :s/MUST/MAY)
>=20
> m24)  " If a BGP node is capable of processing QoS attribute, it=20
> optionally MAY process the message."
>    What message? The BGP UPDATE?
>=20
> m25)   "BGP node MUST drop SLA related sub-type from the QoS =
attribute, if
>    none of the AS from the destination list is in the forwarding =
path."
>=20
>    There is no AS in the forwarding path. Please rephrase.
>=20
> m26)   "5.2.  BGP Node not Capable of Processing QoS Attribute
>=20
>    If the BGP node is not capable of processing QoS attribute, it MUST
>    forward the QoS attribute message unaltered."
>=20
> This section is completely useless. It should either be removed or at=20
> the minimum should not specify a behavior. e.g.
> OLD: it MUST forward
> NEW: as per RFC4271, it will
>=20
> or should define what is meant by "processing QoS attribute". (my=20
> reading is "does not recognize")
>=20
> m27) "If advertised QoS Attribute, inside an update message, is with a =

> flag set indicating to drop that message, a receiver MUST drop message =

> if it is the last receiver, in update path, that message is advertised =
to."
> This is not extremely clear. Especially for a "MUST" behavior. Please=20
> rephrase using the protocols names of the messages/fields.
>=20
> m28)"If the advertised SLA is from the next hop, in the reverse path,=20
> the receiver may implement advertised SLA for the whole link, the link =

> could be physical or virtual link, associated with the next hop. "
>=20
> I don't understand. Please rephrase. (e.g. which next-hop?, reverse=20
> path of
> what?)
>=20
> "If NLRI advertised in update message is not of the next hop,"
> I don't understand. Please rephrase.
>=20
> m29)
>    "For cases where if earlier messages have not reached the intended=20
> receiver yet, a re-signaling is required.  A receiver may intend to=20
> request an SLA message from the originator in such case.  Since BGP=20
> messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that advertised=20
> messages always reach intended receivers.  Thus discussion of REQUEST
>    message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out=20
> of the scope of this document."
> Some parsing issues.
> The text seems to self contradict:
> - "a re-signaling is required"
> - "Since BGP messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that=20
> advertised messages always reach intended receivers."
>=20
> m30)
>    "There are well-defined recommendations that exist for traffic=20
> class mapping between two technologies. "
>=20
>    Please provides references.
>=20
> m31)
> "AS2 can advertise the same or a subset of that SLA to AS3 in the=20
> context of tunnel's ip address."
> Which tunnel are you refering to?
>=20
>=20
> Nits:
> N1) ID Nits reports 1 error (Obsolete normative reference)
> N2) In a BGP context, "AS" stands for "Autonomous System" and not=20
> "Automated System"
> N3)
> "     =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                                                               =
|
>        ~              Traffic Class Elements count/values              =
~
>        |                                                               =
|
>        =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "
>=20
> I feel that the figure could be updated to more accurately represent =
both
> fields (length).	Something like
>=20
> 	   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        | Traffic  Count|      Traffic Class values                     =
|
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                               =
~
>        |                                                               =
|
>        ~                                                               =
~
>        |                                                               =
|
>       =20
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
> N4) In general for all figures, it's easier if the name of the legend=20
> / descriptive paragraph match the name in the figure.
> e.g.
> "Class Desc Len" in figure versus "Traffic Class Descr Length" in the=20
> legend "Advertiser id TLVs" in figure versus "Optional Advertiser id=20
> TLV" in the legend "Event" in figure versus "SLA Event Type" in the =
legend ...
>=20
> N5)
> "IPFIX IANA registry is "https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" "
> May be added to the reference section.
>=20
> N6) There is a mix of usage of "octet" and "byte". For consistency,=20
> only one should be chosen ("octet" IMHO)
>=20
> N7)[CPP]      I-D.boucadair-connectivity-provisioning-profile"
> why not citing RFC 7297 instead?
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Bruno
>=20
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> _
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi=20
> que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles=20
> d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not=20
> be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =

> delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have=20
> been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
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Shitanshu:=20

I understand Bruno's concerns. =20

Let's work together to address them.  Please send me your revised draft =
(off-list), and we'll work to address Bruno's concerns.  After we've =
converged on a revised draft, we'll send it back to Bruno.  =20

Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:31 PM
To: Shitanshu Shah (svshah)
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; idr wg; rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; =
idr-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05

Hi Shitanshu,

Thanks for the answers.

Please see inline. [Bruno]

As a high level summary:
- A revised draft is needed, especially since some answers are "will be =
addressed in next revision".=20
	- The mandatory point to be addressed is the BGP error handling of this =
new attribute. (should be easy to fix but must be fixed) (M8)
	- There may also be a point about "dropping the message" which is not =
yet clear to me. I'll wait for the next revision (M7)
- I won't follow up on whether BGP or netconf is the right protocol to =
configure QoS related parameters. This is way above my reviewer hat. I =
would just like the document to state its non-applicability to BGP/MPLS =
VPN providers using static routing between PE & CE, as this may avoid =
wrong expectations.  "7.  Deployment Considerations" seems the right =
place for this.
- All others points are expected to be addressed in the next revision.


Bruno

> From: Shitanshu Shah (svshah) [mailto:svshah@cisco.com] > Sent:=20
> Monday, June 15, 2015 9:10 PM
>=20
>=20
> Sorry for the long delay. have been on vacation..
>=20
> Many thanks Bruno for the detailed review and comments/suggestions..
> Please find response inline ##svshah
>=20
>=20
> On 5/22/15, 6:29 AM, "bruno.decraene@orange.com"
> <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
> >Hello,
> >
> >I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this =
draft.
> >The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or=20
> >routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG=20
> >review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review=20
> >is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information=20
> >about the Routing Directorate, please see=20
> >=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> >
> >Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, =

> >it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other=20
> >IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them=20
> >through discussion or by updating the draft.
> >
> >Document: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
> >Reviewer: Bruno Decraene
> >Review Date: 22/05/2015
> >IETF LC End Date: 02/03/2015
> >Intended Status: Standards Track
> >
> >Summary:  I have significant concerns about this document and=20
> >recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the =
authors.
> >
> >(Or the chairs as I see that this document has not yet been passed to =

> >the
> >ADs)
> >
> >Comments:
> >In general, the readability of the document is acceptable but could=20
> >be improved, both from a language and technical precision point of =
view.
> >(examples below).
> >However, there are some normative parts of this Standard Track=20
> >specification that I could not understand.
> >
> >Major:
> >M1) The Introduction states
> >"In a multi-vendor network, translating SLAs into technology-specific =

> >and vendor-specific configuration requires to consider specificities=20
> >of each vendor.
> >There does not exist any standard protocol to translate SLA=20
> >agreements into technical clauses and configurations and thus both=20
> >the steps of out of band learning of negotiated SLA and provisioning=20
> >them in a vendor specific language can be complex and error-prone."
> >
> >- I guess some would use NETCONF/YANG to address this. It could be=20
> >questioned why BGP has been preferred.
>=20
> ##svshah, there are multiple aspects to it. Today provider providing=20
> negotiated SLA already has it provisioned in some form of a policy to=20
> enforce the contracted traffic. one would simply leverage such=20
> existing defined policy to signal to the the other end of the=20
> contracted party without requiring any additional complexity in the=20
> network with additional controllers. With respect to protocol, BGP is=20
> well established inter-domain protocol. Not sure if Netconf can be=20
> used to exchange info across domains/trust boundaries specifically if =
they are managed in different administrative boundaries.

[Bruno] I've raised the point, but I'll leave this to chairs and ADs.
I understand that such comment comes late in the draft process.
AFAIK, SNMP can provide different views, some being suitable to =
customers, or peering ASes. I guess Netconf would allow the same. This =
seems mainly a matter of authentication.
That does not change the point that a priori netconf seems more suitable =
to SLA/QoS configuration than BGP.

=20
>=20
> > Especially since:
> >	- in the VPN context (using a lot of QoS and the uses cases=20
> >described in the document) many customer connections use static=20
> >routing rather than eBGP.
>=20
> ##svshah, this actually had come up in early days of this proposal=20
> work before we progressed further with the proposal. It has been=20
> learned that while there are specific regions where static routing may =

> be used, there are actually number of cases where eBGP is used. Infact =

> it is in the VPN context, eBGP is found to be used.

[Bruno] Working for a SP providing BGP/MPLS VPN services, I m pretty =
sure that static routing is also used between PE & CE. IMO static =
routing is used for a significant part of CE. And theses sites/customers =
equally need QoS. So this seems (to me) a pitty to design a new solution =
which is not applicable to a significant part of the network/customers.
Clearly I don't see an obvious correlation between the routing protocol =
used between PE & CE and the need for QoS.

At the minimum, the document should clearly talks about this restriction =
and warn SP that they may want to consider an alternative solution to =
configure QoS related parameter if they use static routing for some of =
their PE-CE.

=20
> I agree that QoS is pervasive and contracts of QoS SLA happen in many=20
> types of deployments. Any protocol of choice will not fit all =
deployment models.
> Honestly, waiting for universal method will be forever.

[Bruno] I would assume that Netconf has more chance to be a "universal" =
configuration method then BGP, especially for non-routing related =
information.
=20
>=20
> > Hence this specification would not be enough to distribute SLA and=20
> >would require another protocol.
> >	- QoS is only one part of the configuration effort. Why using=20
> >different protocols to configure different aspects?
> >
> >- This may be related to draft-l3vpn-service-yang and the L3VPN=20
> >Service Model WG (l3sm). May be some form of coordination would be =
beneficial.
> >
> >M2)"The exception is where a BGP speaker, in the middle of an update=20
> >path to the destination AS, aggregates prefixes. We will refer this=20
> >middle BGP speaker, that aggregates routes, as an Aggregator.
> >Aggregator is then required to insert original NLRI details in the=20
> >optional
> advertiser field"
> >
> >If you refer to the use of AS_SET, RFC6472 recommends against the use =

> >of AS_SET. So, I'm not sure that there is a need to add complexity in =

> >this specification in order to handle route aggregation.
> >If removed, "section 5.3 Aggregator" may also be removed.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok. We can use that as a guidance. Aggregation is=20
> highlighted simply to complete a possible scenario. Aggregation anyway =

> is not an interesting case for SLA exchange. If advice is against it =
anyway, we do not have to highlight it.

[Bruno] It's up to you, whether you consider this additional complexity =
is useful or not, to handle a case which is not recommended anymore. You =
could at least reference RFC 6472

=20
>=20
> >
> >M4)
> > "Traffic Class Description
> >        Ascii Description of the Traffic Class"
> >
> >Should it be UTF-8?
>=20
> ##svshah, that should be fine.

[Bruno] In which cases, you may find interesting the following IETF =
tutorial "A Pr=C3=A9cis of PRECIS:next-generation internationalization =
considerations"
https://www.ietf.org/edu/tutorials/92-WG-Chairs-Lunch-precis-Sullivan.pdf=


=20
> >
> >M5) SLA definition
> > It would be good to define what a SLA is. Especially since this=20
> >whole goal of the draft is to advertise SLA in BGP. Citing an=20
> >individual draft [CPP] is not enough to have an agreed on definition, =

> >especially for a STD track RFC.
>=20
> ##svshah, I understand and agree that SLA is a generic term and is=20
> context dependent. Are you looking for elaborating something in the=20
> following context? We already have cited QoS parameters from RFC2212, =
RFC2475 ..
> We can elaborate in the following paragraph to add more content along=20
> the lines.
>=20
> "
>    Typically there is a contractual Service Level Agreement (SLA)
>    established between a customer and a provider or between providers.
>    This contractual agreement defines the nature of the various =
traffic
>    classes and services needed within each traffic class.  The =
contract
>    may include full line-rate or sub line-rate without additional
>    traffic classes, or it may contain additional traffic classes and
>    service definitions for those traffic classes.  Finer granular
>    traffic classes may be based on some standard code points (like
>    DSCP), or specific set of prefixes.
> "

[Bruno] A definition of SLA sounds interesting. Especially if you say =
that the meaning is context dependent.
I can't comment on the definition. At least it seems to fit the data =
that you advertise in BGP, which is good.


> > Since QoS is not new in the IETF, there is probably a document=20
> >defining it (or using a more popular terminology).
> >Looking in google, I don't really see matches for "IETF SLA" (outside =

> >of documents written by the authors).
> >Wikipedia seems to give a quite different definition, much wider than =

> >diffserv specific parameters which seems to be the main point of this =

> >BGP
> >attribute:
> >"A service-level agreement (SLA) is a part of a service=20
> >contract[disambiguation needed] where a service is formally defined.
> >Particular aspects of the service - scope, quality, responsibilities=20
> >- are agreed between the service provider and the service user. A=20
> >common feature of an SLA is a contracted delivery time (of the=20
> >service or performance). As an example, Internet service providers=20
> >and telcos will commonly include service level agreements within the=20
> >terms of their contracts with customers to define the level(s) of=20
> >service being sold in plain language terms. In this case the SLA will =

> >typically have a technical definition in terms of mean time between=20
> >failures (MTBF), mean time to repair or mean time to recovery (MTTR); =

> >identifying which party is responsible for reporting faults or paying =

> >fees; responsibility for various data rates; throughput; jitter; or=20
> >similar measurable
> details.."
> >
> >M6)
> > "   Traffic Class Service (optional),
> >        16-bit          =3D type of the field
> >        variable-length =3D based on type of the service"
> >
> >Please specify the content of the "variable-length" field.
>=20
> ##svshah, what it says that length of the field is to be specified=20
> based on type of the field specified. Thus it does have both type and=20
> length values specified in 2 different fields. Hope that clarifies.

[Bruno] ok. Can you also clarify in the spec that this correspond to 2 =
distinct fields:
Length: 1 octet. Unsigned integer representing the length of the value =
field.
Value field: based on type of the service

Note: I used "1 octet" but may be you meant 2 octets. The point is to =
specify "length" field.

>=20
> >
> >If it only contains the Data Type of the IPFIX Information Elements,=20
> >I'm not sure how the encoding supports, on the receiving side, the=20
> >skipping of unknown ElementID.
> >Given that I also don't see an end to end negotiation channel for the =

> >BGP speaker to known the capabilities of the BGP receiver, I don't=20
> >see how the specification will support the introduction of new=20
> >Traffic Class Services in the future.
> >
> >M7) NLRI
> >I don't see the relation between the QoS attribute and the NLRI.
> >- Is the QoS attribute only applicable to the NLRI advertised? If so=20
> >what is the relation with destinationIP* advertised in the classifier =
Element?
> >Should they be restricted to more specifics of the advertised NLRI?
>=20
> ##svshah, that is correct. If destinationIP advertised in the=20
> classifier element then in that case it would be restricted to =
specifics.

[Bruno] ok. I think that this should be indicated in the document.

=20
>=20
> >- Also the QoS attribute may instruct "to drop entire BGP update=20
> >message [Note that it is an indication to drop entire update message, =

> >not only QoS attribute]". This means that the NLRI will not be=20
> >propagated, hence routed, anymore, which seems strange. To preserve=20
> >routing of the NLRI, do the QoS attribute require to advertise a less =

> >specific prefix (with no QoS attribute) in addition?
>=20
> ##svshah, the provision is not so much to advertise less specific=20
> prefix but instead to support ordering where SLA to be advertised=20
> after the fact prefix was already advertised before. In such case, a=20
> new message will be triggered just for the sake of SLA advertisement.=20
> No need to route NLRI beyond SLA receiver and thus provision of this =
option.

[Bruno] Do you that mean the same prefix (BGP NLRI) has been advertised =
before?=20
But in BGP, the subsequent advertisement of the same NLRI _replace_ the =
previous one. There is no order/multiple ones. So if you drop the BGP =
update, you don't only drop the SLA signaling but also the routing of =
the prefix.
=20
>=20
> > Or to use ADD_PATH to advertise the NLRI multiple times (with &=20
> >without the QoS attribute).
> >
> >Possibly same question for the relation between the QoS attribute and =

> >the AFI/SAFI of the BGP UPDATE. Is the QoS attribute to be understood =

> >in the context of the AFI/SAFI or not? e.g. if the classifier element =

> >is the ipDiffServCodePoint does it match all protocols or only the=20
> >one of the AFI/SAFI?
>=20
> ##svshah, it only would match the one of the AFI/SAFI.

[Bruno] ok. I think that this should be indicated in the document.
=20
=20
> >
> >M8) Error handling
> >Current text says that error handling MAY use attribute discard or=20
> >MAY use treat as withdraw.
> >This seems underspecified as one implementation would be free to do=20
> >nothing, while another could do session reset. This would open many=20
> >BGP session reset in real networks.
> >Please specific what must be done.
> >Besides, other part of the document provides some more=20
> >specific/different error handling. e.g. "If there are more than one=20
> >such Traffic Classes present then advertised SLA parameters MUST be
> ignored."
> >Finally, the spec needs to define when the new attribute is=20
> >considered malformed.
> >On an editorial note, I would prefer a dedicate section related to=20
> >error handling.
>=20
> ##svshah, sure. Will look into incorporating specifics throughout=20
> document where applicable as well in a dedicated section.
>=20

[Bruno] ok. This is the most important point for me. All others comments =
only affect the QoS attribute. Here you can affect the whole network, up =
to the whole Internet.

=20
> >M9) security consideration may require some discussion.
> >"There is a potential for mis-behaved AS to advertise wrong SLA,=20
> >stealing identity of another AS."
> >Agreed. But there are probably other attack vectors (e.g. modifying=20
> >the attribute during propagation, setting parameters to instruct BGP=20
> >to drop the message (as this seems alllowed by the specification)...)
> >
> >"This resembles to problems already identified and resolved, in the=20
> >routing world, thru reverse path forwarding check."
> >"Resembles" is not enough. "Resolved" is probably a bit quick.
> >
> >"One proposal, inline to RPF, to resolve such threats is to have each =

> >BGP speaker node, in the forwarding path, perform reverse path check=20
> >on source AS."
> >If this is a specification, it should be described in the document=20
> >(quickly citing it in the security section is not enough).
> >It's also a bit short in term of specification. e.g. I don't see=20
> >"source AS" in the forwarding path (neither in the packet nor in the
> >FIB)
> >
> >"Since we expect these messages to originate and distributed in the=20
> >managed network, there should not be any risks for identity theft."
> >If you restrict the use of this specification/ATTRIBUTE in "managed=20
> >network", this needs to be clarified from the beginning (and not at=20
> >this very end of the document), and the specification should take=20
> >measure to ensure that this attribute is not received from/leaked=20
> >outside of this "managed network".
> >Defining "managed network" may also help, especially since the=20
> >proposition involves multiple ASes and multiple organisations.
> >(otherwise, you need to handle the case when this attribute is used=20
> >outside of "managed network" and therefore consider the security
> >implications)
>=20
>=20
> ##svshah, sure. Will incorporate accordingly.

[Bruno] Ack.
=20
> >
> >M10) IANA section is under specified.
> >e.g. you should:
> >- states the name of the registry that you want to create or update.
> >- states the name of the new entries in existing registries.
> >- define all your new registries. (e.g. you don't have ones for new=20
> >QoS TLV subtypes (defined in =C2=A73.1), Optional Advertised id TLV, =
SLA=20
> >event
> >Type...)
> >- define the registration policy of those new registries.
> >
> >Reading RFC5226 may help.
>=20
> ##svshah, thanks for the pointer. Yeah, I recognize that IANA section=20
> is under specified. Will address it.

[Bruno] Ack.
=20
>=20
> >
> >
> >Minor (some not so minor):
> >m1) From an editorial standpoint, the document may benefit from an=20
> >english language review.
> >  - Some sentences are hard to parse (at least for me). e.g. "The=20
> >need to exchange SLA parameters between domains (Automated Systems=20
> >(AS)), where in use-cases described in this document, BGP is a=20
> >suitable protocol for inter-domain exchange [RFC4271][RFC4364].
> >  - Adding a full point "." at the end of each sentence may help the=20
> >parsing.
> >  - IMHO some sentences could be rewritten to improve readability. =
e.g.
> >  OLD:
> >        highest order bit (bit 0) -
> >            It defines if update message MUST be dropped (if set to =
1)
> >            without updating routing information base, when this is =
the
> >            last BGP receiver from the list of destination ASes this
> >            attribute is announced to, or MUST announce (if set to 0)
> >            further to BGP peers
> >  NEW
> >        highest order bit (bit 0) -
> >			This flags defines how update message must be
> handled by the last
> >BGP receiver in the list of destination ASes.
> >            If set (1) update message MUST be dropped without=20
> >updating routing information base.
> >			If cleared (0) update message MUST be further
> advertised to BGP peers.
> >
> >  On a side note, at this point in the document, it's not crystal=20
> >clear what you mean by "update message". The QoS Attribute TLV? The=20
> >QoS BGP attribute? The BGP UPDATE message? In general, in the=20
> >document, please use the protocols names of the messages/fields.
> >  - "SLA sub-type specific value field details." I guess you mean=20
> >:s/specific/specifies.
>=20
> ##svshah, will make appropriate changes

[Bruno] ok thanks.

>=20
> >
> >m2)
> >OLD: Remaining bits are currently unused and MUST be set to 0
> >NEW: The lower-order seven bits of the Attribute Flags octet are =
unused.
> >They MUST be zero when sent and MUST be ignored when received.
> >(Proposed text is a copy/past from RFC 4271. You are free to use=20
> >another text but please specify the behaviour on the receiving side=20
> >as we have seen BGP session reset in the Internet which a much=20
> >clearer
> >sentence.)
>=20
> ##svshah, understood. Will make necessary changes.

[Bruno] ok thanks.
=20
> >
> >m3) That's not specific to this document, but I would find useful to=20
> >have the related implementation report draft be referenced in the=20
> >informative reference section.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok.
>=20
> >
> >m4) "sub type Length" Please specify exactly what part of the message =

> >is covered by the length (as some IETF spec use the length of the=20
> >value field, while some other use the length of the type+length+value =
fields.
> >
> >m5) "32-bit source AS (Advertiser)" The word "advertiser" may be=20
> >misleading. (cf draft-hares-idr-update-attrib-low-bits-fix). RFC 4271 =

> >uses "Originating speaker" (SIDR seems also to use "Origin".
> >Multiple occurrences in the draft.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok.
>=20
> >
> >m6)  "0 =3D ignore Source and Destination AS list from this Value =
field.
> >            Instead refer to Source and Destination AS as defined by =
BGP
> >            message"
> >I'm not sure what is meant by the second sentence. Please use the=20
> >specific names of BGP messages and fields.
>=20
> ##svshah, I see what you are saying. Will make necessary change.
>=20
> >
> >m7) "format of the SLA message"
> >Giving names and number to figures could be considered.
> >So does adding the memory axis:
> >    0                   1                   2                   3
> >    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
> >
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m8)
> >"    Optional advertiser id total len
> >        16-bit Source address identifier (optional)."
> >
> >I read this as the field "Optional advertiser id total len" contains=20
> >a 16-bit Source address identifier.
> >While this field probably contain the length of "something". Please=20
> >check/clarify.
>=20
>=20
> ##svshah, we may not need this if Aggregation is discouraged and is to =

> be removed as in one of earlier major comments.
>=20
> >
> >m9)
> >    "Optional Advertiser id TLV
> >        4-bit type"
> >
> >You need to specify the size of the "Length" field. Especially since=20
> >you introduce a somewhat unusual size of the "Type field" and some=20
> >people may assume that the size of the "length" field is of the same=20
> >size (4-
> bit),
> >while some others may believe its the usual 1-octet.
> >
> >m10)"    Destination AS count
> >        32-bit destination AS count to take variable length AS list."
> >I guess you mean:
> >number of destination ASes
> >This field indicates the number of destination AS present in the=20
> >Destination AS list
>=20
> ##svshah, correct
>=20
> >
> >m11) "SLA Id"
> >The text under "SLA Id" mixes text related to "SLA Id " and text=20
> >related to  "Content". Please split the text.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m12) I don't see a description of the filed "Content as per SLA =
Event"
>=20
> ##svshah, ok, let me put some content there.
>=20
> >
> >m13)  "    SLA Length
> >        12-bits"
> >Please specify what is covered/measured by this length field.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m14)
> >"    Direction
> >        0x1 =3D incoming, from destination AS towards source AS
> >        0x2 =3D outgoing, from source AS towards destination AS"
> >I find the terms "incoming" and "outcoming" a bit misleading. e.g.
> >the direction "from source AS towards destination AS" seems to be:
> >- outgoing in the source AS
> >- ingoing in the destination AS
>=20
> ##svshah, since I=E2=80=99ve described what each means, I can get rid =
of the=20
> terms =E2=80=9Cincoming=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Coutgoing=E2=80=9D =
completely.

[Bruno] ok
=20
>=20
> >
> >m15)    "Traffic Class Descr Length
> >        08-bit, size of the length"
> >proposition  :s/size of the length/ length of XXX
> >
> >m16) In section 3, I don't see the specification of the REQUEST SLA=20
> >even type.
> >At the end of the document, it's said that "discussion of REQUEST=20
> >message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out of=20
> >the scope of this document." In which case, you should probably not=20
> >specify a REQUEST SLA even type.
>=20
> ##svshah, yeah. I have removed in newer revision. REQUEST type should=20
> not be there since we are not defining it here.

[Bruno] ok
=20
> >
> >m19)
> >"Given IPFIX [RFC5102] has well defined identifier set for a large=20
> >number of packet attributes, IPFIX IANA registry is=20
> >"https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" chosen to specify packet=20
> >classification attributes."
> >Sentence is hard to parse, which is an issue for a normative part.
> >The reference should probably be listed in the reference section.
> >
> >"However, since not all identifiers from IPFIX would be applicable to =

> >this proposal, only a limited set identified here can be supported by =

> >BGP SLA exchange. Any new element identifier, in future, added to the =

> >IPFIX IANA registry does not automatically mean supported for this
> proposal."
> >
> >- This probably calls for a IANA registry to identify which element=20
> >identifier can be used.
> >- Text should clarify that the list of accepted identifiers is=20
> >defined in the subsequent list (having no name and no number).
>=20
> ##svshah, I can add text here to refer back to the table specified in=20
> earlier section. That way table at one place consistently can=20
> highlight what IPFIX elements are used by this proposal.
>=20
> >
> >m20) section 3 is hard to read.
> >- IMO the document/section 3 would benefit from an section presenting =

> >an overview of the solution
> >- section 3 have a single subsection (3.1) hence the interest of=20
> >using subsection is limited. Given the size of section 3 (10 pages),=20
> >to improve readability I would suggest the use of multiples =
subsection.
>=20
>=20
> ##svshah, with iterative works, this is where section 3 is landed. I=20
> feel that the way it is currently is best representative of the=20
> proposal. Let me see though if there is any room to incorporate your =
suggestion.
>=20
> >
> >m21)
> >      "The minimum policed unit (m) and maximum packet size (M)
> >      parameters have no relevance for the purpose of SLA exchange.
> >      Thus they MUST be ignored."
> >
> >Why specifying and sending such parameters in BGP if they MUST be=20
> >ignored by the receiver?
>=20
> ##svshah, the sentence you are referring to here has total 5=20
> parameters (TRAFFIC_CLASS_TSPEC), out of which 2 suggested here to be=20
> ignored. While review with tsvwg, there was a strong suggestion to=20
> re-use TRAFFIC_CLASS_TSPEC (RFC2212) for the purpose here. And thus=20
> re-use of TSPEC parameters from which first 3 parameters are relevant =
herewith.

[Bruno] ok

=20
> >
> >
> >m22)
> >" This rate indicates the minimum rate, measured in bytes of Layer 2
> >(L2) datagrams per second,"
> >I'm not sure why the Layer 2 size is used rather than the layer 3 =
size.
> >As a consequence, you need to send additional information=20
> >(L2_OVERHEAD) which may be not needed otherwise.
> >Draft cites RFC 2212 as the source of this TRAFFIC_CLASS_TSPEC=20
> >parameter, and RFC 2212 use the IP datagram size.
>=20
> ##svshah, In practice we find that L2 overhead is significantly=20
> important with respect to SLA between 2 domains. Thus we are making=20
> consideration of
> L2 as a norm. L2 overhead field is introduced just to cover cases=20
> where the use-case need to consider only IP.

[Bruno] RFC 2212 uses IP datagram size, not L2. I'm not sure why tsvwg =
asked to use the same syntax format but agreed to have a different =
semantic.
Also, as the layer 2 change across ASes, I'm not sure how this is =
relevant to propagate layer 2 specific information across multiple AS =
borders.
But that's your spec. I'm mainly reviewing the BGP specific part.

=20
> >
> >m23)
> >"4.  Originating SLA Notification
> >
> >   The QoS attribute to advertise SLA sub-type MUST be added by the
> >   originator of a BGP UPDATE message."
> >
> >I guess you don't mean that advertising this new attribute is =
mandatory.
> >So please rephrase (e.g. at least :s/MUST/MAY)
>=20
> ##svshah, yeah adverting attribute is not mandatory. What it is trying =

> to highlight is that this attribute can=E2=80=99t be inserted by =
intermediate nodes.

[Bruno] ok, but that's not what's written. Given your answer, I would =
write it as: The QoS attribute MUST only be added by the originator and =
MUST NOT be added during BGP propagation.

/Bruno

>=20
> >
> >
> >m24)  " If a BGP node is capable of processing QoS attribute, it=20
> >optionally MAY process the message."
> >   What message? The BGP UPDATE?
> >
>=20
> ##svshah, will revise text to make it more clear.
>=20
> >
> >m25)   "BGP node MUST drop SLA related sub-type from the QoS =
attribute, if
> >   none of the AS from the destination list is in the forwarding =
path."
> >
> >   There is no AS in the forwarding path. Please rephrase.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m26)   "5.2.  BGP Node not Capable of Processing QoS Attribute
> >
> >   If the BGP node is not capable of processing QoS attribute, it =
MUST
> >   forward the QoS attribute message unaltered."
> >
> >This section is completely useless. It should either be removed or at =

> >the minimum should not specify a behavior. e.g.
> >OLD: it MUST forward
> >NEW: as per RFC4271, it will
> >
> >or should define what is meant by "processing QoS attribute". (my=20
> >reading is "does not recognize")
>=20
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m27) "If advertised QoS Attribute, inside an update message, is with=20
> >a flag set indicating to drop that message, a receiver MUST drop=20
> >message if it is the last receiver, in update path, that message is =
advertised to."
> >This is not extremely clear. Especially for a "MUST" behavior. Please =

> >rephrase using the protocols names of the messages/fields.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m28)"If the advertised SLA is from the next hop, in the reverse path, =

> >the receiver may implement advertised SLA for the whole link, the=20
> >link could be physical or virtual link, associated with the next hop. =
"
> >
> >I don't understand. Please rephrase. (e.g. which next-hop?, reverse=20
> >path of what?)
> >
> >"If NLRI advertised in update message is not of the next hop,"
> >I don't understand. Please rephrase.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >m29)
> >   "For cases where if earlier messages have not reached the intended =

> >receiver yet, a re-signaling is required.  A receiver may intend to=20
> >request an SLA message from the originator in such case.  Since BGP=20
> >messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that advertised=20
> >messages always reach intended receivers.  Thus discussion of REQUEST
> >   message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out=20
> >of the scope of this document."
> >Some parsing issues.
> >The text seems to self contradict:
> >- "a re-signaling is required"
> >- "Since BGP messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that=20
> >advertised messages always reach intended receivers."
> >
> >m30)
> >   "There are well-defined recommendations that exist for traffic=20
> >class mapping between two technologies. "
> >
> >   Please provides references.
> >
>=20
> ##svshah, ok. Let me provide a reference to MPLS TC mapping.
>=20
> >
> >m31)
> >"AS2 can advertise the same or a subset of that SLA to AS3 in the=20
> >context of tunnel's ip address."
> >Which tunnel are you refering to?
> >
>=20
> ##svshah, agree. Tunnel is not qualified in the description here. Will =

> revise the text appropriately.
>=20
> >
> >Nits:
> >N1) ID Nits reports 1 error (Obsolete normative reference)
>=20
> ##svshah, yes, have taken care of it.
>=20
> >N2) In a BGP context, "AS" stands for "Autonomous System" and not=20
> >"Automated System"
>=20
> ##svshah, oops.. Thanks for catching typo.
>=20
> >N3)
> >"     =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                                                              =
 |
> >       ~              Traffic Class Elements count/values             =
 ~
> >       |                                                              =
 |
> >       =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "
> >
> >I feel that the figure could be updated to more accurately represent =
both
> >fields (length).	Something like
> >
> >	   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       | Traffic  Count|      Traffic Class values                    =
 |
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                              =
 ~
> >       |                                                              =
 |
> >       ~                                                              =
 ~
> >       |                                                              =
 |
> >
> >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
> ##svshah, agree. Looks better this way.
>=20
> >
> >N4) In general for all figures, it's easier if the name of the legend =

> >/ descriptive paragraph match the name in the figure.
> >e.g.
> >"Class Desc Len" in figure versus "Traffic Class Descr Length" in the =

> >legend "Advertiser id TLVs" in figure versus "Optional Advertiser id=20
> >TLV" in the legend "Event" in figure versus "SLA Event Type" in the=20
> >legend ...
>=20
> ##svshah, will double check them
>=20
> >
> >N5)
> >"IPFIX IANA registry is "https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" "
> >May be added to the reference section.
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >N6) There is a mix of usage of "octet" and "byte". For consistency,=20
> >only one should be chosen ("octet" IMHO)
>=20
> ##svshah, ok
>=20
> >
> >N7)[CPP]      I-D.boucadair-connectivity-provisioning-profile"
> >why not citing RFC 7297 instead?
>=20
>=20
> ##svshah, have already taken care of it.
>=20
> Regards,
> Shitanshu
>=20
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >Bruno
> >
> >___________________________________________________________
> ____________
> >___ _______________________________________________
> >
> >Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> >confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =

> >exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> >par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi=20
> >que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =

> >d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =

> >altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> >
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> >privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not=20
> >be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> >If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender=20
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> >As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =

> >been modified, changed or falsified.
> >Thank you.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Idr mailing list
> >Idr@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.



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Thread-Topic: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
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From nobody Thu Jun 25 10:49:46 2015
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
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Bruno:

Thank you for the pointers.  This type help makes my job as WG a lot =
easier.=20

Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:48 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; 'idr wg'; 'Shitanshu Shah (svshah)'; =
rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05

Sue,

> From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 25,=20
> 2015 6:53 PM
>=20
> Bruno:
>=20
> Thank you for the excellent comments.   I recalled your comments at =
the 2012
> IETF.  This draft needs to be considered in a focuses usage of 2=20
> peers.  All other assumptions need to be carefully reworked.
>=20
> I will have the authors expand the Deployment considerations to=20
> consider the pros/cons of netconf, I2RS, and BGP-flowspec.

That's up to you. That's beyond my comments.
Regarding the deployment consideration section, my comment was to =
discuss the applicability of _this_ specific document. i.e. states where =
it has good applicability, and where it has less applicability (e.g. the =
BGP/MPLS VPN provider also uses static routing between PE & CE)

>  I agree that the QoS
> consideration is only part of the consideration for this draft.
>=20
> Once the authors have completed their revisions to my satisfaction,=20
> this draft will be resent to the IDR list for approval.  As part of=20
> that second approval process, I would like to  summarize your concerns =

> for the IDR list.  Would you point out  which of your messages or=20
> presentations should be considered in that discussion?

My original set of comments: =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg14418.html
Follow up as of today: =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg14547.html

Both are on IDR mailing list.

Bruno
=20
> Sue Hares
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:29 PM
> To: Susan Hares
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; 'idr wg'; 'Shitanshu Shah (svshah)';=20
> rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org;=20
> draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
>=20
> Hi Susan,
>=20
> > From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] > Sent: Monday, June 22,
> > 2015 3:26 PM
> >
> > Bruno:
> >
> > I would like to separate the readability of the draft, the details=20
> > of the SLAs,
> and
> > the passing of SLA information.    I will work with the authors on =
the
> readability
> > of the draft and the SLA specification below.  I will work with the=20
> > authors until they address these questions.
>=20
> Excellent. Thanks.
>=20
> > However, I want to address up-front passing the SLA information.  I=20
> > agree
> that
> > netconf/yang or I2RS could pass the SLA information.   However, this =
set of
> > peers want to pass SLA in BGP.   After we have accepted passing =
link-state
> > information in BGP between a set of peers, are you concerned about=20
> > passing SLA information?  The SLA information is also sent between a =

> > few
> peers.
>=20
> A priori, as of today, I would feel that Netconf looks like a more=20
> suitable protocol to configure QoS parameters on nodes (assuming that=20
> the IETF specify a YANG module for this), especially for the Point to =
point case (4.1.1.
> SLA Advertisement for Point-to-Point Connection).
> In theory, BGP may be interesting to propagate the QoS parameters=20
> along all the BGP speakers on the path (4.1.2.  SLA Advertisement for=20
> Destination AS Multiple Hops Away). However:
> - I don't have enough knowledge on QoS to evaluate on how much it=20
> makes sense to configure the same QoS parameters on all the nodes of=20
> the MP2P trees set up by BGP (especially since this document advertise =

> some L2 specific information while the L2 may be different along the=20
> path)
> - The uses cases described in "7.  Deployment Considerations" seems to =

> only use QoS configuration on a point to point way
> - Possibly, using BGP flowspec may have been an interesting option to=20
> consider
>=20
> However, you are right that the IDR WG has taken this work item, so=20
> the comment is probably way too late for BGP. And at that time (I=20
> remember having discussed this draft in Paris (2012)) Netconf was less =

> mature or spread across the IETF. The question may still be valid for=20
> others routing protocols as the main use case indicated is "Provider=20
> to advertise contracted SLA parameters to Customer Edge (CE)", and BGP =

> may not be the only protocol used in this use case.
>=20
> > If this is the issue, I would like to have a discussion of your=20
> > concerns on the
> IDR mail list.
>=20
> Note that IDR is in copy of my comments.
>=20
> Bruno
>=20
> >
> > Sue
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> > bruno.decraene@orange.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 9:29 AM
> > To: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-sla- =

> > exchange.all@tools.ietf.org
> > Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; idr wg
> > Subject: [Idr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this=20
> > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or=20
> > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG=20
> > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review=20
> > is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information=20
> > about the Routing Directorate, please see=20
> > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> >
> > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing=20
> > ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any=20
> > other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to=20
> > resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft.
> >
> > Document: draft-ietf-idr-sla-exchange-05
> > Reviewer: Bruno Decraene
> > Review Date: 22/05/2015
> > IETF LC End Date: 02/03/2015
> > Intended Status: Standards Track
> >
> > Summary:  I have significant concerns about this document and=20
> > recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the
> authors.
> >
> > (Or the chairs as I see that this document has not yet been passed=20
> > to the ADs)
> >
> > Comments:
> > In general, the readability of the document is acceptable but could=20
> > be improved, both from a language and technical precision point of =
view.
> > (examples below).
> > However, there are some normative parts of this Standard Track=20
> > specification that I could not understand.
> >
> > Major:
> > M1) The Introduction states
> > "In a multi-vendor network, translating SLAs into=20
> > technology-specific and vendor-specific configuration requires to=20
> > consider specificities of each vendor.
> > There does not exist any standard protocol to translate SLA=20
> > agreements into technical clauses and configurations and thus both=20
> > the steps of out of band learning of negotiated SLA and provisioning =

> > them in a vendor specific language can be complex and error-prone."
> >
> > - I guess some would use NETCONF/YANG to address this. It could be=20
> > questioned why BGP has been preferred. Especially since:
> > 	- in the VPN context (using a lot of QoS and the uses cases=20
> > described in the document) many customer connections use static=20
> > routing rather than eBGP. Hence this specification would not be=20
> > enough to distribute SLA and would require another protocol.
> > 	- QoS is only one part of the configuration effort. Why using=20
> > different protocols to configure different aspects?
> >
> > - This may be related to draft-l3vpn-service-yang and the L3VPN=20
> > Service Model WG (l3sm). May be some form of coordination would be
> beneficial.
> >
> > M2)"The exception is where a BGP speaker, in the middle of an update =

> > path to the destination AS, aggregates prefixes. We will refer this=20
> > middle BGP speaker, that aggregates routes, as an Aggregator.
> > Aggregator is then required to insert original NLRI details in the=20
> > optional
> advertiser field"
> >
> > If you refer to the use of AS_SET, RFC6472 recommends against the=20
> > use of AS_SET. So, I'm not sure that there is a need to add=20
> > complexity in this specification in order to handle route =
aggregation.
> > If removed, "section 5.3 Aggregator" may also be removed.
> >
> > M4)
> >  "Traffic Class Description
> >         Ascii Description of the Traffic Class"
> >
> > Should it be UTF-8?
> >
> > M5) SLA definition
> >  It would be good to define what a SLA is. Especially since this=20
> > whole goal of the draft is to advertise SLA in BGP. Citing an=20
> > individual draft [CPP] is not enough to have an agreed on=20
> > definition, especially for a
> STD track RFC.
> >  Since QoS is not new in the IETF, there is probably a document=20
> > defining it (or using a more popular terminology).
> > Looking in google, I don't really see matches for "IETF SLA"=20
> > (outside of documents written by the authors).
> > Wikipedia seems to give a quite different definition, much wider=20
> > than diffserv specific parameters which seems to be the main point=20
> > of this BGP
> attribute:
> > "A service-level agreement (SLA) is a part of a service=20
> > contract[disambiguation needed] where a service is formally defined.
> > Particular aspects of the service
> > - scope, quality, responsibilities - are agreed between the service=20
> > provider and the service user. A common feature of an SLA is a=20
> > contracted delivery time (of the service or performance). As an=20
> > example, Internet service providers and telcos will commonly include =

> > service level agreements within the terms of their contracts with=20
> > customers to define the level(s) of service being sold in plain=20
> > language terms. In this case the SLA will typically have a technical =

> > definition in terms of mean time between failures (MTBF), mean time=20
> > to repair or mean time to recovery (MTTR); identifying which party=20
> > is responsible for reporting faults or paying fees; responsibility=20
> > for various
> data rates; throughput; jitter; or similar measurable details.."
> >
> > M6)
> >  "   Traffic Class Service (optional),
> >         16-bit          =3D type of the field
> >         variable-length =3D based on type of the service"
> >
> > Please specify the content of the "variable-length" field.
> > If it only contains the Data Type of the IPFIX Information Elements, =

> > I'm not sure how the encoding supports, on the receiving side, the=20
> > skipping of unknown ElementID.
> > Given that I also don't see an end to end negotiation channel for=20
> > the BGP speaker to known the capabilities of the BGP receiver, I=20
> > don't see how the specification will support the introduction of new =

> > Traffic Class Services in the future.
> >
> > M7) NLRI
> > I don't see the relation between the QoS attribute and the NLRI.
> > - Is the QoS attribute only applicable to the NLRI advertised? If so =

> > what is the relation with destinationIP* advertised in the=20
> > classifier Element? Should they be restricted to more specifics of=20
> > the advertised
> NLRI?
> > - Also the QoS attribute may instruct "to drop entire BGP update=20
> > message [Note that it is an indication to drop entire update=20
> > message, not only QoS attribute]". This means that the NLRI will not =

> > be propagated, hence routed, anymore, which seems strange. To=20
> > preserve routing of the NLRI, do the QoS attribute require to=20
> > advertise a less specific prefix (with no QoS attribute) in=20
> > addition? Or to use ADD_PATH to advertise the NLRI multiple times=20
> > (with & without the QoS
> attribute).
> >
> > Possibly same question for the relation between the QoS attribute=20
> > and the AFI/SAFI of the BGP UPDATE. Is the QoS attribute to be=20
> > understood in the context of the AFI/SAFI or not? e.g. if the=20
> > classifier element is the ipDiffServCodePoint does it match all=20
> > protocols or only the one of the AFI/SAFI?
> >
> > M8) Error handling
> > Current text says that error handling MAY use attribute discard or=20
> > MAY use treat as withdraw.
> > This seems underspecified as one implementation would be free to do=20
> > nothing, while another could do session reset. This would open many=20
> > BGP session reset in real networks.
> > Please specific what must be done.
> > Besides, other part of the document provides some more=20
> > specific/different error handling. e.g. "If there are more than one=20
> > such Traffic Classes present then advertised SLA parameters MUST be
> ignored."
> > Finally, the spec needs to define when the new attribute is=20
> > considered malformed.
> > On an editorial note, I would prefer a dedicate section related to=20
> > error handling.
> >
> > M9) security consideration may require some discussion.
> > "There is a potential for mis-behaved AS to advertise wrong SLA,=20
> > stealing identity of another AS."
> > Agreed. But there are probably other attack vectors (e.g. modifying=20
> > the attribute during propagation, setting parameters to instruct BGP =

> > to drop the message (as this seems alllowed by the=20
> > specification)...)
> >
> > "This resembles to problems already identified and resolved, in the=20
> > routing world, thru reverse path forwarding check."
> > "Resembles" is not enough. "Resolved" is probably a bit quick.
> >
> > "One proposal, inline to RPF, to resolve such threats is to have=20
> > each BGP speaker node, in the forwarding path, perform reverse path=20
> > check on source AS."
> > If this is a specification, it should be described in the document=20
> > (quickly citing it in the security section is not enough).
> > It's also a bit short in term of specification. e.g. I don't see=20
> > "source AS" in the forwarding path (neither in the packet nor in the
> > FIB)
> >
> > "Since we expect these messages to originate and distributed in the=20
> > managed network, there should not be any risks for identity theft."
> > If you restrict the use of this specification/ATTRIBUTE in "managed=20
> > network", this needs to be clarified from the beginning (and not at=20
> > this very end of the document), and the specification should take=20
> > measure to ensure that this attribute is not received from/leaked=20
> > outside of
> this "managed network".
> > Defining "managed network" may also help, especially since the=20
> > proposition involves multiple ASes and multiple organisations.
> > (otherwise, you need to handle the case when this attribute is used=20
> > outside of "managed network" and therefore consider the security
> > implications)
> >
> > M10) IANA section is under specified.
> > e.g. you should:
> > - states the name of the registry that you want to create or update.
> > - states the name of the new entries in existing registries.
> > - define all your new registries. (e.g. you don't have ones for new=20
> > QoS TLV subtypes (defined in =C2=A73.1), Optional Advertised id TLV, =
SLA=20
> > event Type...)
> > - define the registration policy of those new registries.
> >
> > Reading RFC5226 may help.
> >
> >
> > Minor (some not so minor):
> > m1) From an editorial standpoint, the document may benefit from an=20
> > english language review.
> >   - Some sentences are hard to parse (at least for me). e.g. "The=20
> > need to exchange SLA parameters between domains (Automated Systems=20
> > (AS)), where in use-cases described in this document, BGP is a=20
> > suitable protocol for inter-domain exchange [RFC4271][RFC4364].
> >   - Adding a full point "." at the end of each sentence may help the =
parsing.
> >   - IMHO some sentences could be rewritten to improve readability. =
e.g.
> >   OLD:
> >         highest order bit (bit 0) -
> >             It defines if update message MUST be dropped (if set to =
1)
> >             without updating routing information base, when this is =
the
> >             last BGP receiver from the list of destination ASes this
> >             attribute is announced to, or MUST announce (if set to =
0)
> >             further to BGP peers
> >   NEW
> >         highest order bit (bit 0) -
> > 			This flags defines how update message must be
> handled by the last
> > BGP receiver in the list of destination ASes.
> >             If set (1) update message MUST be dropped without=20
> > updating routing information base.
> > 			If cleared (0) update message MUST be further
> advertised to BGP
> > peers.
> >
> >   On a side note, at this point in the document, it's not crystal=20
> > clear what you mean by "update message". The QoS Attribute TLV? The=20
> > QoS
> BGP attribute?
> > The BGP UPDATE message? In general, in the document, please use the=20
> > protocols names of the messages/fields.
> >   - "SLA sub-type specific value field details." I guess you mean=20
> > :s/specific/specifies.
> >
> > m2)
> > OLD: Remaining bits are currently unused and MUST be set to 0
> > NEW: The lower-order seven bits of the Attribute Flags octet are =
unused.
> > They MUST be zero when sent and MUST be ignored when received.
> > (Proposed text is a copy/past from RFC 4271. You are free to use=20
> > another text but please specify the behaviour on the receiving side=20
> > as we have seen BGP session reset in the Internet which a much=20
> > clearer
> > sentence.)
> >
> > m3) That's not specific to this document, but I would find useful to =

> > have the related implementation report draft be referenced in the=20
> > informative reference section.
> >
> > m4) "sub type Length" Please specify exactly what part of the=20
> > message is covered by the length (as some IETF spec use the length=20
> > of the value field, while some other use the length of the =
type+length+value fields.
> >
> > m5) "32-bit source AS (Advertiser)" The word "advertiser" may be
> misleading.
> > (cf draft-hares-idr-update-attrib-low-bits-fix). RFC 4271 uses=20
> > "Originating speaker" (SIDR seems also to use "Origin".
> > Multiple occurrences in the draft.
> >
> > m6)  "0 =3D ignore Source and Destination AS list from this Value =
field.
> >             Instead refer to Source and Destination AS as defined by =
BGP
> >             message"
> > I'm not sure what is meant by the second sentence. Please use the=20
> > specific names of BGP messages and fields.
> >
> > m7) "format of the SLA message"
> > Giving names and number to figures could be considered.
> > So does adding the memory axis:
> >     0                   1                   2                   3
> >     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
> >
> >
> > m8)
> > "    Optional advertiser id total len
> >         16-bit Source address identifier (optional)."
> >
> > I read this as the field "Optional advertiser id total len" contains =

> > a 16-bit Source address identifier.
> > While this field probably contain the length of "something". Please=20
> > check/clarify.
> >
> > m9)
> >     "Optional Advertiser id TLV
> >         4-bit type"
> >
> > You need to specify the size of the "Length" field. Especially since =

> > you introduce a somewhat unusual size of the "Type field" and some=20
> > people may assume that the size of the "length" field is of the same =

> > size (4-bit), while some others may believe its the usual 1-octet.
> >
> > m10)"    Destination AS count
> >         32-bit destination AS count to take variable length AS =
list."
> > I guess you mean:
> > number of destination ASes
> > This field indicates the number of destination AS present in the=20
> > Destination AS list
> >
> > m11) "SLA Id"
> > The text under "SLA Id" mixes text related to "SLA Id " and text=20
> > related to "Content". Please split the text.
> >
> > m12) I don't see a description of the filed "Content as per SLA =
Event"
> >
> > m13)  "    SLA Length
> >         12-bits"
> > Please specify what is covered/measured by this length field.
> >
> > m14)
> > "    Direction
> >         0x1 =3D incoming, from destination AS towards source AS
> >         0x2 =3D outgoing, from source AS towards destination AS"
> > I find the terms "incoming" and "outcoming" a bit misleading. e.g.
> > the direction "from source AS towards destination AS" seems to be:
> > - outgoing in the source AS
> > - ingoing in the destination AS
> >
> > m15)    "Traffic Class Descr Length
> >         08-bit, size of the length"
> > proposition  :s/size of the length/ length of XXX
> >
> > m16) In section 3, I don't see the specification of the REQUEST SLA=20
> > even
> type.
> > At the end of the document, it's said that "discussion of REQUEST=20
> > message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out of =

> > the scope of this document." In which case, you should probably not=20
> > specify a REQUEST SLA even type.
> >
> > m19)
> > "Given IPFIX [RFC5102] has well defined identifier set for a large=20
> > number of packet attributes, IPFIX IANA registry is=20
> > "https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" chosen to specify packet=20
> > classification attributes."
> > Sentence is hard to parse, which is an issue for a normative part.
> > The reference should probably be listed in the reference section.
> >
> > "However, since not all identifiers from IPFIX would be applicable=20
> > to this proposal, only a limited set identified here can be=20
> > supported by BGP SLA exchange. Any new element identifier, in=20
> > future, added to the IPFIX IANA registry does not automatically mean =

> > supported for this
> proposal."
> >
> > - This probably calls for a IANA registry to identify which element=20
> > identifier can be used.
> > - Text should clarify that the list of accepted identifiers is=20
> > defined in the subsequent list (having no name and no number).
> >
> > m20) section 3 is hard to read.
> > - IMO the document/section 3 would benefit from an section=20
> > presenting an overview of the solution
> > - section 3 have a single subsection (3.1) hence the interest of=20
> > using subsection is limited. Given the size of section 3 (10 pages), =

> > to improve readability I would suggest the use of multiples =
subsection.
> >
> > m21)
> >       "The minimum policed unit (m) and maximum packet size (M)
> >       parameters have no relevance for the purpose of SLA exchange.
> >       Thus they MUST be ignored."
> >
> > Why specifying and sending such parameters in BGP if they MUST be=20
> > ignored by the receiver?
> >
> > m22)
> > " This rate indicates the minimum rate, measured in bytes of Layer 2
> > (L2) datagrams per second,"
> > I'm not sure why the Layer 2 size is used rather than the layer 3=20
> > size. As a consequence, you need to send additional information
> > (L2_OVERHEAD) which may be not needed otherwise.
> > Draft cites RFC 2212 as the source of this TRAFFIC_CLASS_TSPEC=20
> > parameter, and RFC 2212 use the IP datagram size.
> >
> > m23)
> > "4.  Originating SLA Notification
> >
> >    The QoS attribute to advertise SLA sub-type MUST be added by the
> >    originator of a BGP UPDATE message."
> >
> > I guess you don't mean that advertising this new attribute is=20
> > mandatory. So please rephrase (e.g. at least :s/MUST/MAY)
> >
> > m24)  " If a BGP node is capable of processing QoS attribute, it=20
> > optionally MAY process the message."
> >    What message? The BGP UPDATE?
> >
> > m25)   "BGP node MUST drop SLA related sub-type from the QoS =
attribute, if
> >    none of the AS from the destination list is in the forwarding =
path."
> >
> >    There is no AS in the forwarding path. Please rephrase.
> >
> > m26)   "5.2.  BGP Node not Capable of Processing QoS Attribute
> >
> >    If the BGP node is not capable of processing QoS attribute, it =
MUST
> >    forward the QoS attribute message unaltered."
> >
> > This section is completely useless. It should either be removed or=20
> > at the minimum should not specify a behavior. e.g.
> > OLD: it MUST forward
> > NEW: as per RFC4271, it will
> >
> > or should define what is meant by "processing QoS attribute". (my=20
> > reading is "does not recognize")
> >
> > m27) "If advertised QoS Attribute, inside an update message, is with =

> > a flag set indicating to drop that message, a receiver MUST drop=20
> > message if it is the last receiver, in update path, that message is =
advertised to."
> > This is not extremely clear. Especially for a "MUST" behavior.=20
> > Please rephrase using the protocols names of the messages/fields.
> >
> > m28)"If the advertised SLA is from the next hop, in the reverse=20
> > path, the receiver may implement advertised SLA for the whole link,=20
> > the link could be physical or virtual link, associated with the next =
hop. "
> >
> > I don't understand. Please rephrase. (e.g. which next-hop?, reverse=20
> > path of
> > what?)
> >
> > "If NLRI advertised in update message is not of the next hop,"
> > I don't understand. Please rephrase.
> >
> > m29)
> >    "For cases where if earlier messages have not reached the=20
> > intended receiver yet, a re-signaling is required.  A receiver may=20
> > intend to request an SLA message from the originator in such case. =20
> > Since BGP messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that=20
> > advertised messages always reach intended receivers.  Thus =
discussion of REQUEST
> >    message, for this purpose or any other purpose, is considered out =

> > of the scope of this document."
> > Some parsing issues.
> > The text seems to self contradict:
> > - "a re-signaling is required"
> > - "Since BGP messages are considered reliable, it is assumed that=20
> > advertised messages always reach intended receivers."
> >
> > m30)
> >    "There are well-defined recommendations that exist for traffic=20
> > class mapping between two technologies. "
> >
> >    Please provides references.
> >
> > m31)
> > "AS2 can advertise the same or a subset of that SLA to AS3 in the=20
> > context of tunnel's ip address."
> > Which tunnel are you refering to?
> >
> >
> > Nits:
> > N1) ID Nits reports 1 error (Obsolete normative reference)
> > N2) In a BGP context, "AS" stands for "Autonomous System" and not=20
> > "Automated System"
> > N3)
> > "     =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |                                                             =
  |
> >        ~              Traffic Class Elements count/values            =
  ~
> >        |                                                             =
  |
> >        =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "
> >
> > I feel that the figure could be updated to more accurately represent =
both
> > fields (length).	Something like
> >
> > 	   =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        | Traffic  Count|      Traffic Class values                   =
  |
> >        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                             =
  ~
> >        |                                                             =
  |
> >        ~                                                             =
  ~
> >        |                                                             =
  |
> >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >
> > N4) In general for all figures, it's easier if the name of the=20
> > legend / descriptive paragraph match the name in the figure.
> > e.g.
> > "Class Desc Len" in figure versus "Traffic Class Descr Length" in=20
> > the legend "Advertiser id TLVs" in figure versus "Optional=20
> > Advertiser id TLV" in the legend "Event" in figure versus "SLA Event =
Type" in the legend ...
> >
> > N5)
> > "IPFIX IANA registry is "https://www.ietf.org/assignments/ipfix" "
> > May be added to the reference section.
> >
> > N6) There is a mix of usage of "octet" and "byte". For consistency,=20
> > only one should be chosen ("octet" IMHO)
> >
> > N7)[CPP]      I-D.boucadair-connectivity-provisioning-profile"
> > why not citing RFC 7297 instead?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bruno
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> > _
> >
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>=20
>=20
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> _
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
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altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
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>=20


_________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
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exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
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Thank you.



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From: Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:20:46 -0400
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-rtg-dt-encap-02
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--089e014953208fa4ab0519bb3d59
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes
on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to
the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve
them through discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-rtg-dt-encap-02
Reviewer: Jamal Hadi Salim
Review Date: 6/30/15 (later than requested, sorry)
Intended Status: Informational
WG LC End Date: unknown

Summary:

The document has significant good work and recommendations for
encapsulation design. Many years of experience in issues found
with encapsulation deployments are discussed. There are times
where i lost track what the document was about because issues
were being discussed without making recommendations on what is needed
from an encapsulation perspective to deal with those issues; otoh,
a good read is section 18 which would mention an issue and in the
same breath suggests how a design should handle said issue.

The document needs at least one more pass.

I have some minor concerns about this document that I believe are
resolvable.
Annotated comments attached.

cheers,
jamal

--089e014953208fa4ab0519bb3d59
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have been selected as the Routing Directorate revie=
wer for this draft.</div><div>The Routing Directorate seeks to review all r=
outing or routing-related</div><div>drafts as they pass through IETF last c=
all and IESG review, and sometimes</div><div>on special request. The purpos=
e of the review is to provide assistance to</div><div>the Routing ADs. For =
more information about the Routing Directorate, please see <a href=3D"http:=
//trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir">http://trac.tools.ietf.org=
/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a></div><div><br></div><div>Although these comm=
ents are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it</div><div>would be he=
lpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF</div><div>Last C=
all comments that you receive, and strive to resolve</div><div>them through=
 discussion or by updating the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>Document: dr=
aft-rtg-dt-encap-02</div><div>Reviewer: Jamal Hadi Salim</div><div>Review D=
ate: 6/30/15 (later than requested, sorry)</div><div>Intended Status: Infor=
mational</div><div>WG LC End Date: unknown</div><div><br></div><div>Summary=
:</div><div><br></div><div>The document has significant good work and recom=
mendations for</div><div>encapsulation design. Many years of experience in =
issues found</div><div>with encapsulation deployments are discussed. There =
are times</div><div>where i lost track what the document was about because =
issues</div><div>were being discussed without making recommendations on wha=
t is needed</div><div>from an encapsulation perspective to deal with those =
issues; otoh,</div><div>a good read is section 18 which would mention an is=
sue and in the</div><div>same breath suggests how a design should handle sa=
id issue.</div><div><br></div><div>The document needs at least one more pas=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>I have some minor concerns about this document =
that I believe are resolvable.</div><div>Annotated comments attached.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div>jamal</div><div><br></div></div>

--089e014953208fa4ab0519bb3d59--
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From nobody Tue Jun 30 05:27:22 2015
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From: Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:26:57 -0400
Message-ID: <CAAFAkD9r71tiwP1AzW_6tTs7T-qk13EzzOSHBgJmBAgtEY72jA@mail.gmail.com>
To: draft-rtg-dt-encap <draft-rtg-dt-encap@tools.ietf.org>
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Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Bouncing email address
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Someone needs to change Tom's email address on the alias
draft-rtg-dt-encap@tools.ietf.org

cheers,
jamal

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON@ietfa.amsl.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 8:21 AM
Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
To: hadi@mojatatu.com


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<therbert@google.com> (expanded from
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to
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--089e01538c5cb412360519bb5373
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Someone needs to change Tom&#39;s email address on th=
e alias</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:draft-rtg-dt-encap@tools.ietf.org">draf=
t-rtg-dt-encap@tools.ietf.org</a></div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><di=
v>jamal</div><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forw=
arded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mail Delive=
ry System</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:MAILER-DAEMON@ietfa.a=
msl.com">MAILER-DAEMON@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Tue, Jun 30, =
2015 at 8:21 AM<br>Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender<br>To: <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:hadi@mojatatu.com">hadi@mojatatu.com</a><br><br><br>This is t=
he mail system at host <a href=3D"http://ietfa.amsl.com" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">ietfa.amsl.com</a>.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m sorry to have to inform you that your message could not<br>
be delivered to one or more recipients. It&#39;s attached below.<br>
<br>
For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.<br>
<br>
If you do so, please include this problem report. You can<br>
delete your own text from the attached returned message.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ma=
il system<br>
<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:therbert@google.com">therbert@google.com</a>&gt; (exp=
anded from<br>
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org">expand-draft-rtg-dt-encap@virtual.ietf.org</a>&gt;): host<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://aspmx.l.google.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ=
et=3D"_blank">aspmx.l.google.com</a>[74.125.129.26] said: 550 5.2.1 The ema=
il account that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 you tried to reach is disabled. fm2si69908050pab.148 - gsmtp =
(in reply to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RCPT TO command)<br>
<br>Final-Recipient: rfc822; <a href=3D"mailto:therbert@google.com">therber=
t@google.com</a><br>
Original-Recipient: rfc822; <a href=3D"mailto:expand-draft-rtg-dt-encap@vir=
tual.ietf.org">expand-draft-rtg-dt-encap@virtual.ietf.org</a><br>
Action: failed<br>
Status: 5.2.1<br>
Remote-MTA: dns; <a href=3D"http://aspmx.l.google.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">aspmx.l.google.com</a><br>
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.2.1 The email account that you tried to reach =
is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 disabled. fm2si69908050pab.148 - gsmtp<br>
<br></div><br></div></div>

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