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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 13:53:38 -0400
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-trill-rfc6439bis
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Hi Joel,

Thanks for your comments.

Because this draft happens to be close to expiring and we are coming
up on the refractory period before the Berlin meeting, I'm going to do
my best at editing it based on your comments and upload a revision.
But if that does not resolve your comments, further changes can be
made.

See below.

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
> This is a QA review, intended to provide an additional perspective,
> requested by the TRILL chairs and Routing ADs.
> The reviewer understands that the WG last call has completed, and hopes that
> this review will prove helpful to the working group.
> [For clarity, the above is written before performing the review.]
>
> This document is ready for publication as a Proposed Standard RFC.
>
> Major: N/A
>
> Minor: N/A
>
> Nits:
>     Section 2.2 base has two bullet items.  the first appears to be a subset
> of the second.  Is this deliberate?

You are correct. I guess as an author I thought of the second point as
being more restricted than the words actually are. I was thinking it
actually said something like "When it observes a change in DRB on the
link from one RBridge other than itself to another RBridge other than
itself." However, it seems like it would be clearer to re-write that
small section of text.

>     The counter-example at the end of the second paragraph of section 2.4
> seems to be missing some limitation that would explain it.  (It is possible
> this is more obvious to a reader who is more conversant with TRILL, but
> there does seem to be something missing.)

Maybe the wording isn't very clear. Let me describe the counter
example somewhat more verbosely in different words.
     Say that all the end stations in a TRILL campus that are in
VLAN-x are attached to RBridge-1.  That means that they are on links
that is attached to RBridge-1 and there might be one or more other
RBridges attached to those links. (Note that in TRILL, a link can be a
bridged LAN.) On each such link, there will be a Designated RBridge
election to chose the RBridge that is in charge of end station traffic
on that link, either ingressing/egress such traffic itself or
assigning it to one or more other RBridges on that link by VLAN.
     Assume that RBridge-1 is overloaded. Thus RBridge-1 will
typically do a poor job of forwarding traffic, because it cannot hold
the complete topology. Normally, you would not want RBridge-1 handling
end station traffic. If RBridge-1 wins the DRB election on a link, it
should assign the handling that traffic to other non-overloaded
RBridges on its links, if such RBridges are available, and if some
other RBridge on a link wins the DRB election, it should not assign
the handling of such traffic to RBridge-1.
     However, in the case of VLAN-x traffic, all the end stations in
VLAN-x have local connectivity to RBridge-1. The inability of
RBridge-1 to do a good job forwarding traffic is immaterial to traffic
in VLAN-x because it will never have to forward it because all end
stations in VLAN-x are local. Thus, even through RBridge-1 is in
overload, it SHOULD be assigned the handling of end station traffic
for VLAN-x.

I'll try to clarify the wording in the draft.

> Editorial:
>     In section 10.4 defining the FGL-VLAN Mapping Bitmap APPsub-TLV, the
> diagram calls the fifth field "Starting FGL".  The text below that refers to
> it the field simply as "FGL".  I believe the text should also name it
> "Starting FGL".

OK.

> Side note: I really appreciate the thorough additional explanations as to
> the reasons various actions are safe or unsafe.  Thank you.

You're welcome,
Donald
===============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Yours,
> Joel M. Halpern


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To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-trill-rfc6439bis
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Thanks Donald.  Looks good to me.
Yours,
Joel

On 7/3/16 1:53 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote:
> Hi Joel,
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> Because this draft happens to be close to expiring and we are coming
> up on the refractory period before the Berlin meeting, I'm going to do
> my best at editing it based on your comments and upload a revision.
> But if that does not resolve your comments, further changes can be
> made.
>
> See below.
>
> On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>> This is a QA review, intended to provide an additional perspective,
>> requested by the TRILL chairs and Routing ADs.
>> The reviewer understands that the WG last call has completed, and hopes that
>> this review will prove helpful to the working group.
>> [For clarity, the above is written before performing the review.]
>>
>> This document is ready for publication as a Proposed Standard RFC.
>>
>> Major: N/A
>>
>> Minor: N/A
>>
>> Nits:
>>     Section 2.2 base has two bullet items.  the first appears to be a subset
>> of the second.  Is this deliberate?
>
> You are correct. I guess as an author I thought of the second point as
> being more restricted than the words actually are. I was thinking it
> actually said something like "When it observes a change in DRB on the
> link from one RBridge other than itself to another RBridge other than
> itself." However, it seems like it would be clearer to re-write that
> small section of text.
>
>>     The counter-example at the end of the second paragraph of section 2.4
>> seems to be missing some limitation that would explain it.  (It is possible
>> this is more obvious to a reader who is more conversant with TRILL, but
>> there does seem to be something missing.)
>
> Maybe the wording isn't very clear. Let me describe the counter
> example somewhat more verbosely in different words.
>      Say that all the end stations in a TRILL campus that are in
> VLAN-x are attached to RBridge-1.  That means that they are on links
> that is attached to RBridge-1 and there might be one or more other
> RBridges attached to those links. (Note that in TRILL, a link can be a
> bridged LAN.) On each such link, there will be a Designated RBridge
> election to chose the RBridge that is in charge of end station traffic
> on that link, either ingressing/egress such traffic itself or
> assigning it to one or more other RBridges on that link by VLAN.
>      Assume that RBridge-1 is overloaded. Thus RBridge-1 will
> typically do a poor job of forwarding traffic, because it cannot hold
> the complete topology. Normally, you would not want RBridge-1 handling
> end station traffic. If RBridge-1 wins the DRB election on a link, it
> should assign the handling that traffic to other non-overloaded
> RBridges on its links, if such RBridges are available, and if some
> other RBridge on a link wins the DRB election, it should not assign
> the handling of such traffic to RBridge-1.
>      However, in the case of VLAN-x traffic, all the end stations in
> VLAN-x have local connectivity to RBridge-1. The inability of
> RBridge-1 to do a good job forwarding traffic is immaterial to traffic
> in VLAN-x because it will never have to forward it because all end
> stations in VLAN-x are local. Thus, even through RBridge-1 is in
> overload, it SHOULD be assigned the handling of end station traffic
> for VLAN-x.
>
> I'll try to clarify the wording in the draft.
>
>> Editorial:
>>     In section 10.4 defining the FGL-VLAN Mapping Bitmap APPsub-TLV, the
>> diagram calls the fifth field "Starting FGL".  The text below that refers to
>> it the field simply as "FGL".  I believe the text should also name it
>> "Starting FGL".
>
> OK.
>
>> Side note: I really appreciate the thorough additional explanations as to
>> the reasons various actions are safe or unsafe.  Thank you.
>
> You're welcome,
> Donald
> ===============================
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>> Yours,
>> Joel M. Halpern


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To: "trill-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <trill-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, draft-ietf-trill-rfc6439bis@ietf.org
References: <65c03289-d719-25ed-60fa-6f954edf2c5a@joelhalpern.com>
From: Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:59:58 -0400
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-trill-rfc6439bis-02
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The latest revisions further improve a document which is ready for 
publication as a Proposed Standard RFC.

My thanks to the editors for their effective and efficient response to 
my comments.

Yours,
Joel


From nobody Sun Jul  3 17:35:52 2016
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 20:35:33 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEHi5DPmB2kd0jH9ET6JxBURDt_E-55Vsvpcov91ExOPug@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "trill-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <trill-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, draft-ietf-trill-rfc6439bis@ietf.org, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-trill-rfc6439bis
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Hi Joel,

A -02 version has been posted intended to resolve your comments.

Thanks,
Donald
===============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
> Thanks Donald.  Looks good to me.
> Yours,
> Joel
>
>
> On 7/3/16 1:53 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joel,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>
>> Because this draft happens to be close to expiring and we are coming
>> up on the refractory period before the Berlin meeting, I'm going to do
>> my best at editing it based on your comments and upload a revision.
>> But if that does not resolve your comments, further changes can be
>> made.
>>
>> See below.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a QA review, intended to provide an additional perspective,
>>> requested by the TRILL chairs and Routing ADs.
>>> The reviewer understands that the WG last call has completed, and hopes
>>> that
>>> this review will prove helpful to the working group.
>>> [For clarity, the above is written before performing the review.]
>>>
>>> This document is ready for publication as a Proposed Standard RFC.
>>>
>>> Major: N/A
>>>
>>> Minor: N/A
>>>
>>> Nits:
>>>     Section 2.2 base has two bullet items.  the first appears to be a
>>> subset
>>> of the second.  Is this deliberate?
>>
>>
>> You are correct. I guess as an author I thought of the second point as
>> being more restricted than the words actually are. I was thinking it
>> actually said something like "When it observes a change in DRB on the
>> link from one RBridge other than itself to another RBridge other than
>> itself." However, it seems like it would be clearer to re-write that
>> small section of text.
>>
>>>     The counter-example at the end of the second paragraph of section 2.4
>>> seems to be missing some limitation that would explain it.  (It is
>>> possible
>>> this is more obvious to a reader who is more conversant with TRILL, but
>>> there does seem to be something missing.)
>>
>>
>> Maybe the wording isn't very clear. Let me describe the counter
>> example somewhat more verbosely in different words.
>>      Say that all the end stations in a TRILL campus that are in
>> VLAN-x are attached to RBridge-1.  That means that they are on links
>> that is attached to RBridge-1 and there might be one or more other
>> RBridges attached to those links. (Note that in TRILL, a link can be a
>> bridged LAN.) On each such link, there will be a Designated RBridge
>> election to chose the RBridge that is in charge of end station traffic
>> on that link, either ingressing/egress such traffic itself or
>> assigning it to one or more other RBridges on that link by VLAN.
>>      Assume that RBridge-1 is overloaded. Thus RBridge-1 will
>> typically do a poor job of forwarding traffic, because it cannot hold
>> the complete topology. Normally, you would not want RBridge-1 handling
>> end station traffic. If RBridge-1 wins the DRB election on a link, it
>> should assign the handling that traffic to other non-overloaded
>> RBridges on its links, if such RBridges are available, and if some
>> other RBridge on a link wins the DRB election, it should not assign
>> the handling of such traffic to RBridge-1.
>>      However, in the case of VLAN-x traffic, all the end stations in
>> VLAN-x have local connectivity to RBridge-1. The inability of
>> RBridge-1 to do a good job forwarding traffic is immaterial to traffic
>> in VLAN-x because it will never have to forward it because all end
>> stations in VLAN-x are local. Thus, even through RBridge-1 is in
>> overload, it SHOULD be assigned the handling of end station traffic
>> for VLAN-x.
>>
>> I'll try to clarify the wording in the draft.
>>
>>> Editorial:
>>>     In section 10.4 defining the FGL-VLAN Mapping Bitmap APPsub-TLV, the
>>> diagram calls the fifth field "Starting FGL".  The text below that refers
>>> to
>>> it the field simply as "FGL".  I believe the text should also name it
>>> "Starting FGL".
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>> Side note: I really appreciate the thorough additional explanations as to
>>> the reasons various actions are safe or unsafe.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>> You're welcome,
>> Donald
>> ===============================
>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Joel M. Halpern


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Subject: [RTG-DIR] FW: Routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-nvo3-geneve-01
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From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com" <sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com>, "mdurrani@cisco.com" <mdurrani@cisco.com>, Liyizhou <liyizhou@huawei.com>, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
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Hi Ross,

Sorry for late response.

Thanks for your great comments. Pls see inline.

weiguo

________________________________

From: Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27
To: Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com; md=
urrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder
Cc: idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon
Subject: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt

I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt.=
 For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Summary:

I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have only a =
couple of questions and some very minor nits.

I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may make s=
ense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN cont=
roller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of this d=
raft to the work in TRILL I have CC=92d the TRILL working group on this rev=
iew and I assume that the TRILL working group will similarly be informed wh=
en the document goes to WGLC.


Questions:

Section 1, second to last paragraph states:

   If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) protocol
   [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each data center,
   BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability information
   synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.  End-to-end unicast
   forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchronized
   information.

Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN controll=
ers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one data cente=
r is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different data center then=
 this would lead to significant issues which have not been discussed in thi=
s document.
[weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers is t=
he main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing from o=
ne data center and feeding back into another data center will cause signifi=
cant problems, can you explain further about this?

Section 5 (security considerations) states:

   Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this document do not
   affect the BGP security model.  See [RFC6952] for details.

I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all cases =
in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-specific =
issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capable d=
evices. I am also wondering whether there is any valid use of =93TRILL in B=
GP=94 other than passing TRILL information to SDN controllers. Passing TRIL=
L information from one TRILL domain to another TRILL domain and then redist=
ributing the information back into normal TRILL packets seems like a bad id=
ea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say something lik=
e =93this protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRILL information from TRI=
LL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL information between SD=
N controllers.
[weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information from on=
e domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL informati=
on from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. Can y=
ou explain further about why BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL informa=
tion from one domain to another domain?

Very minor nits:

Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this document=
 in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more normal to=
 have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for abbrev=
iations used in this document.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =93=85multicast group address, a=
nd  etc.=94 should be =93=85multicast group address, etc.=94.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
Section 3.1, =93iS-IS=94 should be =93IS-IS=94.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a document=
 to reference itself, as in =93An implementation of this specification[idr-=
ls-trill], MUST do=85=94. Would this be a bit less awkward as: =93Any imple=
mentation of the protocol in this specification (ie that distributes TRILL =
Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=85=94.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.

That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,
Thanks, Ross


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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Hi Ross,</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Sorry for late response.</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Thanks for your great comments. Pls se=
e inline.</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">weiguo</font></p>
<p></p>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<p></p>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 16px=
">
<div style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr" id=3D"divRpF789426"><font color=3D"#000000" s=
ize=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]<br=
>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27<br>
<b>To:</b> Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.=
com; mdurrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon<br>
<b>Subject:</b> routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01=
.txt<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
<div>I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01=
.txt. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"=
_blank"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wi=
ki/RtgDir</u></font></a>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Summary:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have on=
ly a couple of questions and some very minor nits.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may m=
ake sense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN=
 controller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of t=
his draft to the work in TRILL I
 have CC=92d the TRILL working group on this review and I assume that the T=
RILL working group will similarly be informed when the document goes to WGL=
C.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Questions:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Section 1, second to last paragraph states:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) p=
rotocol</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each =
data center,</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability info=
rmation</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.&nbsp; End-=
to-end unicast</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchroni=
zed</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; information.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN con=
trollers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one data =
center is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different data center=
 then this would lead to significant
 issues which have not been discussed in this document. </div>
<div>[weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers=
 is the main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing f=
rom one data center and feeding back into another data center will cause si=
gnificant problems, can you explain
 further about this?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Section 5 (security considerations) states:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this docume=
nt do not</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; affect the BGP security model.&nbsp; See [RFC6952] for de=
tails.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all c=
ases in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-spec=
ific issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capa=
ble devices. I am also wondering
 whether there is any valid use of =93TRILL in BGP=94 other than passing TR=
ILL information to SDN controllers. Passing TRILL information from one TRIL=
L domain to another TRILL domain and then redistributing the information ba=
ck into normal TRILL packets seems like
 a bad idea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say some=
thing like =93this protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRILL information=
 from TRILL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL information b=
etween SDN controllers.
</div>
<div>[weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information fr=
om one domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL info=
rmation from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. =
Can you explain further about why
 BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL information from one domain to anot=
her domain?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Very minor nits:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this doc=
ument in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more norm=
al to have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for a=
bbreviations used in this document.
</div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
<div>Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =93=85multicast group addre=
ss, and&nbsp; etc.=94 should be =93=85multicast group address, etc.=94.
</div>
<div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
</div>
<div>Section 3.1, =93iS-IS=94 should be =93IS-IS=94. </div>
<div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
</div>
<div>Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a doc=
ument to reference itself, as in =93An implementation of this specification=
[idr-ls-trill], MUST do=85=94. Would this be a bit less awkward as: =93Any =
implementation of the protocol in this specification
 (ie that distributes TRILL Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=85=
=94. </div>
<div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,</di=
v>
<div>Thanks, Ross</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB55173350D676F3nkgeml513mbxchi_--


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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 01:47:18 -0400
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To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
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Hi Ross,

Sorry for the delay in response. Based on discussions with Hao Weiguo,
the plan is to make minor changes in the draft so as to indicate that
the transported MAC reachability information and the like is for
telemetry purposes and for use by SDN controller(s) where the
coordination or protocol between the SDN controllers is out of scope.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com> wrote:
> Hi Ross,
>
> Sorry for late response.
>
> Thanks for your great comments. Pls see inline.
>
> weiguo
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27
> To: Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com;
> mdurrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder
> Cc: idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon
> Subject: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
>
> I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.tx=
t.
> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Summary:
>
> I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have only =
a
> couple of questions and some very minor nits.
>
> I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may make
> sense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN
> controller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of
> this draft to the work in TRILL I have CC=E2=80=99d the TRILL working gro=
up on this
> review and I assume that the TRILL working group will similarly be inform=
ed
> when the document goes to WGLC.
>
>
> Questions:
>
> Section 1, second to last paragraph states:
>
>    If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) protocol
>    [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each data center,
>    BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability information
>    synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.  End-to-end unicast
>    forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchronized
>    information.
>
> Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN
> controllers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one
> data center is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different data
> center then this would lead to significant issues which have not been
> discussed in this document.
> [weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers is
> the main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing fro=
m
> one data center and feeding back into another data center will cause
> significant problems, can you explain further about this?
>
> Section 5 (security considerations) states:
>
>    Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this document do not
>    affect the BGP security model.  See [RFC6952] for details.
>
> I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all case=
s
> in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-specifi=
c
> issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capable
> devices. I am also wondering whether there is any valid use of =E2=80=9CT=
RILL in
> BGP=E2=80=9D other than passing TRILL information to SDN controllers. Pas=
sing TRILL
> information from one TRILL domain to another TRILL domain and then
> redistributing the information back into normal TRILL packets seems like =
a
> bad idea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say
> something like =E2=80=9Cthis protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRILL
> information from TRILL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL
> information between SDN controllers.
> [weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information from =
one
> domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL informati=
on
> from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. Can yo=
u
> explain further about why BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL informat=
ion
> from one domain to another domain?
>
> Very minor nits:
>
> Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this docume=
nt
> in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more normal t=
o
> have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for
> abbreviations used in this document.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
> Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6multicast gr=
oup address, and
> etc.=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6multicast group address, etc.=
=E2=80=9D.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
> Section 3.1, =E2=80=9CiS-IS=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CIS-IS=E2=80=9D.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
> Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a docume=
nt
> to reference itself, as in =E2=80=9CAn implementation of this
> specification[idr-ls-trill], MUST do=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Would this be a b=
it less awkward as:
> =E2=80=9CAny implementation of the protocol in this specification (ie tha=
t
> distributes TRILL Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=E2=80=A6=E2=
=80=9D.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
>
> That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,
> Thanks, Ross
>


From nobody Tue Jul 26 04:04:59 2016
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "routing-discussion@ietf.org" <routing-discussion@ietf.org>, "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" <rtg-chairs@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing area draft minutes available
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The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 96 are now available.  Pl=
ease let me know if you have any comments.
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-rtgarea

Best regards
Jon


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 96=
 are now available.&nbsp; Please let me know if you have any comments.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minut=
es/minutes-96-rtgarea">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-=
96-rtgarea</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From nobody Tue Jul 26 06:49:36 2016
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 09:37:16 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rcn8XhsounhFmeKAJ9AHsB=jwt7sXZJB4K=Fh3GYxuK1Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing area draft minutes available
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Jon,

Thank you very much for the minutes - and for all the work you do with the
Routing Directorate.
It makes a really big difference to be able to have more good reviews on
documents with such ease.

Alia

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Jonathan Hardwick <
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com> wrote:

> The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 96 are now available.
> Please let me know if you have any comments.
>
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-rtgarea
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Jon
>
>
>

--001a114a8808d68a34053889fff7
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Jon,<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much for the minute=
s - and for all the work you do with the Routing Directorate.</div><div>It =
makes a really big difference to be able to have more good reviews on docum=
ents with such ease.</div><div><br></div><div>Alia</div></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 7:04 A=
M, Jonathan Hardwick <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardw=
ick@metaswitch.com" target=3D"_blank">Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 96=
 are now available.=C2=A0 Please let me know if you have any comments.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minut=
es/minutes-96-rtgarea" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/9=
6/minutes/minutes-96-rtgarea</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114a8808d68a34053889fff7--


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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:45:11 -0400
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
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On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:
> Sounds good. I think that you should send this email to the lists that my=
 review was originally sent to (which I think included Trill and IDR lists)=
 so that WG participants know what the plan is.

OK

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 1:47 AM
> To: Ross Callon
> Cc: Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com; mdurrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou=
; John Scudder; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Haoweiguo; trill-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.=
txt
>
> Hi Ross,
>
> Sorry for the delay in response. Based on discussions with Hao Weiguo,
> the plan is to make minor changes in the draft so as to indicate that
> the transported MAC reachability information and the like is for
> telemetry purposes and for use by SDN controller(s) where the
> coordination or protocol between the SDN controllers is out of scope.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com> wrote:
>> Hi Ross,
>>
>> Sorry for late response.
>>
>> Thanks for your great comments. Pls see inline.
>>
>> weiguo
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27
>> To: Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com;
>> mdurrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder
>> Cc: idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon
>> Subject: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
>>
>> I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.t=
xt.
>> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>>
>> Summary:
>>
>> I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have only=
 a
>> couple of questions and some very minor nits.
>>
>> I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may mak=
e
>> sense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN
>> controller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of
>> this draft to the work in TRILL I have CC=E2=80=99d the TRILL working gr=
oup on this
>> review and I assume that the TRILL working group will similarly be infor=
med
>> when the document goes to WGLC.
>>
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> Section 1, second to last paragraph states:
>>
>>    If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) protocol
>>    [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each data center,
>>    BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability information
>>    synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.  End-to-end unicast
>>    forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchronized
>>    information.
>>
>> Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN
>> controllers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one
>> data center is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different dat=
a
>> center then this would lead to significant issues which have not been
>> discussed in this document.
>> [weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers i=
s
>> the main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing fr=
om
>> one data center and feeding back into another data center will cause
>> significant problems, can you explain further about this?
>>
>> Section 5 (security considerations) states:
>>
>>    Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this document do not
>>    affect the BGP security model.  See [RFC6952] for details.
>>
>> I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all cas=
es
>> in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-specif=
ic
>> issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capabl=
e
>> devices. I am also wondering whether there is any valid use of =E2=80=9C=
TRILL in
>> BGP=E2=80=9D other than passing TRILL information to SDN controllers. Pa=
ssing TRILL
>> information from one TRILL domain to another TRILL domain and then
>> redistributing the information back into normal TRILL packets seems like=
 a
>> bad idea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say
>> something like =E2=80=9Cthis protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRIL=
L
>> information from TRILL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL
>> information between SDN controllers.
>> [weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information from=
 one
>> domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL informat=
ion
>> from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. Can y=
ou
>> explain further about why BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL informa=
tion
>> from one domain to another domain?
>>
>> Very minor nits:
>>
>> Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this docum=
ent
>> in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more normal =
to
>> have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for
>> abbreviations used in this document.
>> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
>> Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6multicast g=
roup address, and
>> etc.=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6multicast group address, etc.=
=E2=80=9D.
>> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
>> Section 3.1, =E2=80=9CiS-IS=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CIS-IS=E2=80=9D.
>> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
>> Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a docum=
ent
>> to reference itself, as in =E2=80=9CAn implementation of this
>> specification[idr-ls-trill], MUST do=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Would this be a =
bit less awkward as:
>> =E2=80=9CAny implementation of the protocol in this specification (ie th=
at
>> distributes TRILL Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=E2=80=A6=E2=
=80=9D.
>> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
>>
>> That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,
>> Thanks, Ross
>>


From nobody Tue Jul 26 08:24:59 2016
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "routing-discussion@ietf.org" <routing-discussion@ietf.org>, "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" <rtg-chairs@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Routing area draft minutes available
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Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 14:50:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing area draft minutes available
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Obviously (as I wasn't present) I'm not commenting on the minutes reflectin=
g what was said. But to the questions asked about MANET:

> George Swallow: Building large packets by putting small packets together;=
 large
>                packets more likely to get corrputed; how about sending sm=
aller
>              packets?
> Justin: Smaller packets will get through more, which is not always good a=
s you
>       don't want to find neighbours that you have a poor link to.

I think a more important point is that packets have overheads (headers for =
RFC 5444, UDP, IP, MAC and also media access overheads). So fewer packets c=
an be a significant win.

> Chris Bowers: Why is the 2-hop neighbour important?
> Justin: Many of the algorithms require you to know your 2-hop neighbours.
> Chris: So unlike IS-IS, you need to be careful to constraing flooding? (Y=
es)
> Stan: RFC 5820 uses a 2-hop neighbourhood for flooding in OSPFv3.

RFC 3626 (OLSR) predates this in using two hop information to define MPRs (=
used for improved flooding and topology reduction), it's where some ideas i=
n the experimental OSPF wireless extensions came from. And of course now we=
 have OLSRv2 (RFC 7181) at Proposed Standard.

> Jehan Tremback: Does DLEP replace Hello in OLSR protocols?
> Justin: Not completely as the Hello messages require TLVs.

NHDP (RFC 6130), the owner of the HELLO messages in the OLSRv2 family, perm=
its using any other sources of information (DLEP could be one) to augment H=
ELLO messages (subject to certain constraints). But there are several thing=
s in HELLO messages that DLEP doesn't supply to the router - in particular,=
 but not only, things added by OLSRv2 (MPRs, knowledge of OLSRv2 support us=
ing its metrics). I'm also not sure DLEP would provide the multiple interfa=
ce information properly.

But even if DLEP did report such things radio to router, DLEP is entirely a=
bout that interface. DLEP defines no over the air signalling, which is what=
 HELLO messages provide - to establish connectivity and exchange informatio=
n. To use DLEP to provide the information that routers need to run NHDP/OLS=
Rv2, you'd need to define an over the air signalling between radios. Or in =
other words, re-invent NHDP.

Rather, what might make sense is that if you want some over the air signall=
ing for DLEP gather some of its information, you could add it to HELLO mess=
ages if running NHDP. (Not quite ideal, as HELLO messages are designed to r=
un router to router, not radio to radio. And off course you may well not be=
 running NHDP, in which case you would need another solution.)

-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
__________________________________________________________________________

T: =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =A0| =A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,=
 Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

From: routing-discussion [mailto:routing-discussion-bounces@ietf.org] On Be=
half Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 26 July 2016 12:05
To: routing-discussion@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg=
-ads@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Routing area draft minutes available


*** WARNING ***
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The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 96 are now available.=A0 =
Please let me know if you have any comments.
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-rtgarea

Best regards
Jon

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To: "<rtg-ads@ietf.org> (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-availability-extension@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-availability-extension@ietf.org>
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From: "Yemin (Amy)" <amy.yemin@huawei.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org> (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-availability-extension@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-availability-extension@ietf.org>
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
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