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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
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Draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-10.txt resolves 98% of my specific comments.  

Remaining Item: Security section
Change status: optional.  

Problem: 
The security section has been improved, but the following sentence in the
second paragraph of section 9 still could be strengthened. 
  This sentence is: 

Current: /One can also ask whether the semantic content of these extensions
can be used to compromise 
a network or initiate a denial of service attack. To do so would require
either compromising the control plane
processing these requests, or manipulating the content of the messages."
/ 

Discussion: 
The authors are precise in this sentence, the import of this sentence may be
lost
on individuals or companies deploying this technology. 

Routing control plane do get compromised.  And when they get 
compromised with a network using RMR, they may have network 
wide problems.    Therefore, the authors assume that 
when you buy RMR from a vendor make sure
it comes from with  control plane with good security. 
For example,  RMR + open linux without security - is probably a bad idea.  

This is an acceptable choice for routing  but not self-evident from the
text. 
I pose the question to the authors, do you think most people will understand
that
this is the requirement you are placing for the "outside the scope option"?

If not, will it help to provide additional text? 

Why mention it now?:  
If either the security directorate or OPS-DIR reviewer has strong routing
clue, 
the person will probably also notice the issue.  By stating it up front, I
hope to save
the security reviewers time.  


Editorial on -10.txt 

Page 3, section 1, paragraph 3, sentence 
General comment:  ", and" - does not seem to make entire sense.
Old: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network, and use those
for protection./ 
New: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network and use the
rings in the mess network for protection/

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 10:01 AM
To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09

Reviewer: Susan Hares
Review result: Not Ready

This is a routing directorate review.  As such, it should be considered the
same as other later WG LC review.

overall-comment: Well-written and an exciting new direction.  I appreciate
Kireeti and Luis work on this topic.

major concerns:
1) security (section 8),
2) long-term stability of architecture discussion,
3) FRR/Protection sections (3.6/3.7), and
4) amount of traffic that auto-discovery will place on the network.

caveat:  I have not been an WG participant for these discussions.   As such,
I
am a "fresh" pair of eyes to read the current specification.

Major concerns
=======

1) Section 8 - Security considerations.

"This section states 'It is not anticipated that either the notion of MPLS
rings or the extensions to various protocols to support them will cause
security loopholes."

This statement provides an opinion of the authors without any reasoning
behind it.  As such, it provide no utility to the reader.  Inquiring minds
would like
to know "why" the authors feel this true and on what basis.   Launching a
new
type of structure within the MPLS cloud that auto-configures it self with a
great deal of message exchange does not appear to have these qualities. 
Surely, these authors have considered or tried these issues.

2) Long-term stability of document - in the face of repeated statements of a
future version of this document.

If this is just an interim document, then why is it being standardized.  In
a specification that is going to include an RFC track, the sttaements of
scope seem inappropriate in sections 1, 3.3, 4.5,  5, 7.1, and 7.2).  This
scope should be gathered to a particular place and stated in another.

I agree with the concept of deployment and then refinement of the protocol
mechanisms.  However, this document seems to anticipate quick refinement of
the basic architeture.  If this is really true, then why is this document
going ot the IESG.  If this is not true, then the scoping in above sections
needs to be refined.

3)  Fast re-routing installation puts details (3.6) before concepts of
protection. Only after I read section 3.7, did section 3.6 start to make
sense.
  If you re-ordered the sections, perhaps you could provide additonal depth
to section 3.6.

4) paragraph 4.3, last sentence  "The nodes that set their M bit should be
extra careful in advertising their M Bit in subsequent tries".

As an engineering, I find this description to avoid many of the problems
about how long the bidding for master will take.  Is there a potential for
the bidding to repeat over and over.  If so, how does the operator detect
it.  Can something drop the nodes into membership phase or re-identification
phase
repeated?   While the ring announcement and ring identification cycle become
a
denial-of-service attack on the IGPs announcing the information?  I suspect
the authors have investigated these points, but the architeture document is
the place to indicate why the architecture prevents these problems.

As an editor, I find the anthropomorphism to be unwarranted in the text.
While it took me to flights of fantasy where the nodes became intelligent
silicon
life forms, I suspect that is not what the authors wanted.   Perhaps after
clarifying the engineering point, the authors can rewrite the sense of the
text.

brief editorial nits:

1) page 4, node index linke
/upto/ to /up to/

2) page 5 (Q_jk): - not define earlier, please define it.

3) page 5, section 3 paragraph 2, sentence file

sentence:
current: /The default is to send traffic along the shortest path./
new:  /The default policy is to send traffic along the shortest path./

4) page 6, section 3.3 sentences 2

current:/ The last attribute means/
new: /The "auto-bundled" attribute means/

While the authors first formi is current, the change makes a specification
clear.

5) page 3.5 - please spell out the first use of UHP
6) section 3.6/3.7 - could use a diagram.
7) page 11, section 4.3, paragraph 2, sentence 2 (spelling) -

old/exaclty one;/
new/exactly one/


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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From: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/FMbqMUQM4ncUEraOXFNtAGnH1eI>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
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Sue,

I hear you.  But this is not an RMR issue =E2=80=94 _networking_ is by natur=
e distributed.  =E2=80=9CIS-IS + open linux without security=E2=80=9D or =E2=
=80=9CBGP + open linux without security=E2=80=9D or ... would all be bad ide=
as.  That said, do you have a suggested change/addition?  I=E2=80=99ll be ha=
ppy to amend the sentence.

Thanks for pointing out the superfluous comma.  Will delete.=20

Cheers,
Kireeti

> On Jun 4, 2019, at 11:28, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>=20
> Draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-10.txt resolves 98% of my specific comments. =20
>=20
> Remaining Item: Security section
> Change status: optional. =20
>=20
> Problem:=20
> The security section has been improved, but the following sentence in the
> second paragraph of section 9 still could be strengthened.=20
>  This sentence is:=20
>=20
> Current: /One can also ask whether the semantic content of these extension=
s
> can be used to compromise=20
> a network or initiate a denial of service attack. To do so would require
> either compromising the control plane
> processing these requests, or manipulating the content of the messages."
> /=20
>=20
> Discussion:=20
> The authors are precise in this sentence, the import of this sentence may b=
e
> lost
> on individuals or companies deploying this technology.=20
>=20
> Routing control plane do get compromised.  And when they get=20
> compromised with a network using RMR, they may have network=20
> wide problems.    Therefore, the authors assume that=20
> when you buy RMR from a vendor make sure
> it comes from with  control plane with good security.=20
> For example,  RMR + open linux without security - is probably a bad idea. =
=20
>=20
> This is an acceptable choice for routing  but not self-evident from the
> text.=20
> I pose the question to the authors, do you think most people will understa=
nd
> that
> this is the requirement you are placing for the "outside the scope option"=
?
>=20
> If not, will it help to provide additional text?=20
>=20
> Why mention it now?: =20
> If either the security directorate or OPS-DIR reviewer has strong routing
> clue,=20
> the person will probably also notice the issue.  By stating it up front, I=

> hope to save
> the security reviewers time. =20
>=20
>=20
> Editorial on -10.txt=20
>=20
> Page 3, section 1, paragraph 3, sentence=20
> General comment:  ", and" - does not seem to make entire sense.
> Old: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network, and use those=

> for protection./=20
> New: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network and use the
> rings in the mess network for protection/
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 10:01 AM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
>=20
> Reviewer: Susan Hares
> Review result: Not Ready
>=20
> This is a routing directorate review.  As such, it should be considered th=
e
> same as other later WG LC review.
>=20
> overall-comment: Well-written and an exciting new direction.  I appreciate=

> Kireeti and Luis work on this topic.
>=20
> major concerns:
> 1) security (section 8),
> 2) long-term stability of architecture discussion,
> 3) FRR/Protection sections (3.6/3.7), and
> 4) amount of traffic that auto-discovery will place on the network.
>=20
> caveat:  I have not been an WG participant for these discussions.   As suc=
h,
> I
> am a "fresh" pair of eyes to read the current specification.
>=20
> Major concerns
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> 1) Section 8 - Security considerations.
>=20
> "This section states 'It is not anticipated that either the notion of MPLS=

> rings or the extensions to various protocols to support them will cause
> security loopholes."
>=20
> This statement provides an opinion of the authors without any reasoning
> behind it.  As such, it provide no utility to the reader.  Inquiring minds=

> would like
> to know "why" the authors feel this true and on what basis.   Launching a
> new
> type of structure within the MPLS cloud that auto-configures it self with a=

> great deal of message exchange does not appear to have these qualities.=20=

> Surely, these authors have considered or tried these issues.
>=20
> 2) Long-term stability of document - in the face of repeated statements of=
 a
> future version of this document.
>=20
> If this is just an interim document, then why is it being standardized.  I=
n
> a specification that is going to include an RFC track, the sttaements of
> scope seem inappropriate in sections 1, 3.3, 4.5,  5, 7.1, and 7.2).  This=

> scope should be gathered to a particular place and stated in another.
>=20
> I agree with the concept of deployment and then refinement of the protocol=

> mechanisms.  However, this document seems to anticipate quick refinement o=
f
> the basic architeture.  If this is really true, then why is this document
> going ot the IESG.  If this is not true, then the scoping in above section=
s
> needs to be refined.
>=20
> 3)  Fast re-routing installation puts details (3.6) before concepts of
> protection. Only after I read section 3.7, did section 3.6 start to make
> sense.
>  If you re-ordered the sections, perhaps you could provide additonal depth=

> to section 3.6.
>=20
> 4) paragraph 4.3, last sentence  "The nodes that set their M bit should be=

> extra careful in advertising their M Bit in subsequent tries".
>=20
> As an engineering, I find this description to avoid many of the problems
> about how long the bidding for master will take.  Is there a potential for=

> the bidding to repeat over and over.  If so, how does the operator detect
> it.  Can something drop the nodes into membership phase or re-identificati=
on
> phase
> repeated?   While the ring announcement and ring identification cycle beco=
me
> a
> denial-of-service attack on the IGPs announcing the information?  I suspec=
t
> the authors have investigated these points, but the architeture document i=
s
> the place to indicate why the architecture prevents these problems.
>=20
> As an editor, I find the anthropomorphism to be unwarranted in the text.
> While it took me to flights of fantasy where the nodes became intelligent
> silicon
> life forms, I suspect that is not what the authors wanted.   Perhaps after=

> clarifying the engineering point, the authors can rewrite the sense of the=

> text.
>=20
> brief editorial nits:
>=20
> 1) page 4, node index linke
> /upto/ to /up to/
>=20
> 2) page 5 (Q_jk): - not define earlier, please define it.
>=20
> 3) page 5, section 3 paragraph 2, sentence file
>=20
> sentence:
> current: /The default is to send traffic along the shortest path./
> new:  /The default policy is to send traffic along the shortest path./
>=20
> 4) page 6, section 3.3 sentences 2
>=20
> current:/ The last attribute means/
> new: /The "auto-bundled" attribute means/
>=20
> While the authors first formi is current, the change makes a specification=

> clear.
>=20
> 5) page 3.5 - please spell out the first use of UHP
> 6) section 3.6/3.7 - could use a diagram.
> 7) page 11, section 4.3, paragraph 2, sentence 2 (spelling) -
>=20
> old/exaclty one;/
> new/exactly one/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>=20


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To: "'Kireeti Kompella'" <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
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Kireeti: =20

If I could think of a sentence that would fix the problem, you would =
have had it in my response.=20

I flagged it for two reasons:=20
1) OPS-DIR and SEC-DIR reviews - may think of a sentence to add for =
operators which I could not.=20
=20
2) By stating it - the IESG members who review the mail will know the =
issue and
why this sentence was written this way.  Hopefully, it will reduce =
churn.=20

I'm excited to see this technology be standardized. =20

Cheers, Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kireeti =
Kompella
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 1:39 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of =
draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09

Sue,

I hear you.  But this is not an RMR issue =E2=80=94 _networking_ is by =
nature distributed.  =E2=80=9CIS-IS + open linux without =
security=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CBGP + open linux without security=E2=80=9D =
or ... would all be bad ideas.  That said, do you have a suggested =
change/addition?  I=E2=80=99ll be happy to amend the sentence.

Thanks for pointing out the superfluous comma.  Will delete.=20

Cheers,
Kireeti

> On Jun 4, 2019, at 11:28, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>=20
> Draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-10.txt resolves 98% of my specific comments. =20
>=20
> Remaining Item: Security section
> Change status: optional. =20
>=20
> Problem:=20
> The security section has been improved, but the following sentence in=20
> the second paragraph of section 9 still could be strengthened.
>  This sentence is:=20
>=20
> Current: /One can also ask whether the semantic content of these=20
> extensions can be used to compromise a network or initiate a denial of =

> service attack. To do so would require either compromising the control =

> plane processing these requests, or manipulating the content of the=20
> messages."
> /
>=20
> Discussion:=20
> The authors are precise in this sentence, the import of this sentence=20
> may be lost on individuals or companies deploying this technology.
>=20
> Routing control plane do get compromised.  And when they get=20
> compromised with a network using RMR, they may have network
> wide problems.    Therefore, the authors assume that=20
> when you buy RMR from a vendor make sure it comes from with  control=20
> plane with good security.
> For example,  RMR + open linux without security - is probably a bad =
idea. =20
>=20
> This is an acceptable choice for routing  but not self-evident from=20
> the text.
> I pose the question to the authors, do you think most people will=20
> understand that this is the requirement you are placing for the=20
> "outside the scope option"?
>=20
> If not, will it help to provide additional text?=20
>=20
> Why mention it now?: =20
> If either the security directorate or OPS-DIR reviewer has strong=20
> routing clue, the person will probably also notice the issue.  By=20
> stating it up front, I hope to save the security reviewers time.
>=20
>=20
> Editorial on -10.txt
>=20
> Page 3, section 1, paragraph 3, sentence General comment:  ", and" -=20
> does not seem to make entire sense.
> Old: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network, and use=20
> those for protection./
> New: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network and use=20
> the rings in the mess network for protection/
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 10:01 AM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
>=20
> Reviewer: Susan Hares
> Review result: Not Ready
>=20
> This is a routing directorate review.  As such, it should be=20
> considered the same as other later WG LC review.
>=20
> overall-comment: Well-written and an exciting new direction.  I=20
> appreciate Kireeti and Luis work on this topic.
>=20
> major concerns:
> 1) security (section 8),
> 2) long-term stability of architecture discussion,
> 3) FRR/Protection sections (3.6/3.7), and
> 4) amount of traffic that auto-discovery will place on the network.
>=20
> caveat:  I have not been an WG participant for these discussions.   As =
such,
> I
> am a "fresh" pair of eyes to read the current specification.
>=20
> Major concerns
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> 1) Section 8 - Security considerations.
>=20
> "This section states 'It is not anticipated that either the notion of=20
> MPLS rings or the extensions to various protocols to support them will =

> cause security loopholes."
>=20
> This statement provides an opinion of the authors without any=20
> reasoning behind it.  As such, it provide no utility to the reader. =20
> Inquiring minds would like
> to know "why" the authors feel this true and on what basis.   =
Launching a
> new
> type of structure within the MPLS cloud that auto-configures it self=20
> with a great deal of message exchange does not appear to have these =
qualities.
> Surely, these authors have considered or tried these issues.
>=20
> 2) Long-term stability of document - in the face of repeated=20
> statements of a future version of this document.
>=20
> If this is just an interim document, then why is it being=20
> standardized.  In a specification that is going to include an RFC=20
> track, the sttaements of scope seem inappropriate in sections 1, 3.3,=20
> 4.5,  5, 7.1, and 7.2).  This scope should be gathered to a particular =
place and stated in another.
>=20
> I agree with the concept of deployment and then refinement of the=20
> protocol mechanisms.  However, this document seems to anticipate quick =

> refinement of the basic architeture.  If this is really true, then why =

> is this document going ot the IESG.  If this is not true, then the=20
> scoping in above sections needs to be refined.
>=20
> 3)  Fast re-routing installation puts details (3.6) before concepts of =

> protection. Only after I read section 3.7, did section 3.6 start to=20
> make sense.
>  If you re-ordered the sections, perhaps you could provide additonal=20
> depth to section 3.6.
>=20
> 4) paragraph 4.3, last sentence  "The nodes that set their M bit=20
> should be extra careful in advertising their M Bit in subsequent =
tries".
>=20
> As an engineering, I find this description to avoid many of the=20
> problems about how long the bidding for master will take.  Is there a=20
> potential for the bidding to repeat over and over.  If so, how does=20
> the operator detect it.  Can something drop the nodes into membership=20
> phase or re-identification phase
> repeated?   While the ring announcement and ring identification cycle =
become
> a
> denial-of-service attack on the IGPs announcing the information?  I=20
> suspect the authors have investigated these points, but the=20
> architeture document is the place to indicate why the architecture =
prevents these problems.
>=20
> As an editor, I find the anthropomorphism to be unwarranted in the =
text.
> While it took me to flights of fantasy where the nodes became=20
> intelligent silicon
> life forms, I suspect that is not what the authors wanted.   Perhaps =
after
> clarifying the engineering point, the authors can rewrite the sense of =

> the text.
>=20
> brief editorial nits:
>=20
> 1) page 4, node index linke
> /upto/ to /up to/
>=20
> 2) page 5 (Q_jk): - not define earlier, please define it.
>=20
> 3) page 5, section 3 paragraph 2, sentence file
>=20
> sentence:
> current: /The default is to send traffic along the shortest path./
> new:  /The default policy is to send traffic along the shortest path./
>=20
> 4) page 6, section 3.3 sentences 2
>=20
> current:/ The last attribute means/
> new: /The "auto-bundled" attribute means/
>=20
> While the authors first formi is current, the change makes a=20
> specification clear.
>=20
> 5) page 3.5 - please spell out the first use of UHP
> 6) section 3.6/3.7 - could use a diagram.
> 7) page 11, section 4.3, paragraph 2, sentence 2 (spelling) -
>=20
> old/exaclty one;/
> new/exactly one/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>=20



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From: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, 'Kireeti Kompella' <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/TrLW03CM829CIWxNSzsN3bRhnGE>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
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Luis:=20

This sentence captures both the original and my desired strengthening of =
the length to a secure control plane. =20

Well done!=20

Sue Hares=20


-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of LUIS MIGUEL =
CONTRERAS MURILLO
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 11:01 AM
To: Susan Hares; 'Kireeti Kompella'
Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of =
draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09

Hi Sue, all,

>From my point of view, probably this sentence could fix the point:

"The extensions proposed do not represent per-se a compromise to network =
security when control plane is secured, since any manipulation of the =
content of the messages or even the control plane misinterpretation of =
the semantics are avoided."

Would it be this ok from your point of view?

Best regards

Luis


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Enviado el: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 5 de junio de 2019 15:49
Para: 'Kireeti Kompella' <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>
CC: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org
Asunto: RE: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of =
draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09

Kireeti:

If I could think of a sentence that would fix the problem, you would =
have had it in my response.

I flagged it for two reasons:
1) OPS-DIR and SEC-DIR reviews - may think of a sentence to add for =
operators which I could not.

2) By stating it - the IESG members who review the mail will know the =
issue and why this sentence was written this way.  Hopefully, it will =
reduce churn.

I'm excited to see this technology be standardized.

Cheers, Sue

-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kireeti =
Kompella
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 1:39 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] Rtgdir early review of =
draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09

Sue,

I hear you.  But this is not an RMR issue =E2=80=94 _networking_ is by =
nature distributed.  =E2=80=9CIS-IS + open linux without =
security=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CBGP + open linux without security=E2=80=9D =
or ... would all be bad ideas.  That said, do you have a suggested =
change/addition?  I=E2=80=99ll be happy to amend the sentence.

Thanks for pointing out the superfluous comma.  Will delete.

Cheers,
Kireeti

> On Jun 4, 2019, at 11:28, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>
> Draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-10.txt resolves 98% of my specific comments.
>
> Remaining Item: Security section
> Change status: optional.
>
> Problem:
> The security section has been improved, but the following sentence in=20
> the second paragraph of section 9 still could be strengthened.
>  This sentence is:
>
> Current: /One can also ask whether the semantic content of these=20
> extensions can be used to compromise a network or initiate a denial of =

> service attack. To do so would require either compromising the control =

> plane processing these requests, or manipulating the content of the=20
> messages."
> /
>
> Discussion:
> The authors are precise in this sentence, the import of this sentence=20
> may be lost on individuals or companies deploying this technology.
>
> Routing control plane do get compromised.  And when they get=20
> compromised with a network using RMR, they may have network
> wide problems.    Therefore, the authors assume that
> when you buy RMR from a vendor make sure it comes from with  control=20
> plane with good security.
> For example,  RMR + open linux without security - is probably a bad =
idea.
>
> This is an acceptable choice for routing  but not self-evident from=20
> the text.
> I pose the question to the authors, do you think most people will=20
> understand that this is the requirement you are placing for the=20
> "outside the scope option"?
>
> If not, will it help to provide additional text?
>
> Why mention it now?:
> If either the security directorate or OPS-DIR reviewer has strong=20
> routing clue, the person will probably also notice the issue.  By=20
> stating it up front, I hope to save the security reviewers time.
>
>
> Editorial on -10.txt
>
> Page 3, section 1, paragraph 3, sentence General comment:  ", and" -=20
> does not seem to make entire sense.
> Old: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network, and use=20
> those for protection./
> New: The intent is not to construct rings in a mess network and use=20
> the rings in the mess network for protection/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 10:01 AM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-rmr.all@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: [mpls] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-mpls-rmr-09
>
> Reviewer: Susan Hares
> Review result: Not Ready
>
> This is a routing directorate review.  As such, it should be=20
> considered the same as other later WG LC review.
>
> overall-comment: Well-written and an exciting new direction.  I=20
> appreciate Kireeti and Luis work on this topic.
>
> major concerns:
> 1) security (section 8),
> 2) long-term stability of architecture discussion,
> 3) FRR/Protection sections (3.6/3.7), and
> 4) amount of traffic that auto-discovery will place on the network.
>
> caveat:  I have not been an WG participant for these discussions.   As =
such,
> I
> am a "fresh" pair of eyes to read the current specification.
>
> Major concerns
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> 1) Section 8 - Security considerations.
>
> "This section states 'It is not anticipated that either the notion of=20
> MPLS rings or the extensions to various protocols to support them will =

> cause security loopholes."
>
> This statement provides an opinion of the authors without any=20
> reasoning behind it.  As such, it provide no utility to the reader.
> Inquiring minds would like
> to know "why" the authors feel this true and on what basis.   =
Launching a
> new
> type of structure within the MPLS cloud that auto-configures it self=20
> with a great deal of message exchange does not appear to have these =
qualities.
> Surely, these authors have considered or tried these issues.
>
> 2) Long-term stability of document - in the face of repeated=20
> statements of a future version of this document.
>
> If this is just an interim document, then why is it being=20
> standardized.  In a specification that is going to include an RFC=20
> track, the sttaements of scope seem inappropriate in sections 1, 3.3,=20
> 4.5,  5, 7.1, and 7.2).  This scope should be gathered to a particular =
place and stated in another.
>
> I agree with the concept of deployment and then refinement of the=20
> protocol mechanisms.  However, this document seems to anticipate quick =

> refinement of the basic architeture.  If this is really true, then why =

> is this document going ot the IESG.  If this is not true, then the=20
> scoping in above sections needs to be refined.
>
> 3)  Fast re-routing installation puts details (3.6) before concepts of =

> protection. Only after I read section 3.7, did section 3.6 start to=20
> make sense.
>  If you re-ordered the sections, perhaps you could provide additonal=20
> depth to section 3.6.
>
> 4) paragraph 4.3, last sentence  "The nodes that set their M bit=20
> should be extra careful in advertising their M Bit in subsequent =
tries".
>
> As an engineering, I find this description to avoid many of the=20
> problems about how long the bidding for master will take.  Is there a=20
> potential for the bidding to repeat over and over.  If so, how does=20
> the operator detect it.  Can something drop the nodes into membership=20
> phase or re-identification phase
> repeated?   While the ring announcement and ring identification cycle =
become
> a
> denial-of-service attack on the IGPs announcing the information?  I=20
> suspect the authors have investigated these points, but the=20
> architeture document is the place to indicate why the architecture =
prevents these problems.
>
> As an editor, I find the anthropomorphism to be unwarranted in the =
text.
> While it took me to flights of fantasy where the nodes became=20
> intelligent silicon
> life forms, I suspect that is not what the authors wanted.   Perhaps =
after
> clarifying the engineering point, the authors can rewrite the sense of =

> the text.
>
> brief editorial nits:
>
> 1) page 4, node index linke
> /upto/ to /up to/
>
> 2) page 5 (Q_jk): - not define earlier, please define it.
>
> 3) page 5, section 3 paragraph 2, sentence file
>
> sentence:
> current: /The default is to send traffic along the shortest path./
> new:  /The default policy is to send traffic along the shortest path./
>
> 4) page 6, section 3.3 sentences 2
>
> current:/ The last attribute means/
> new: /The "auto-bundled" attribute means/
>
> While the authors first formi is current, the change makes a=20
> specification clear.
>
> 5) page 3.5 - please spell out the first use of UHP
> 6) section 3.6/3.7 - could use a diagram.
> 7) page 11, section 4.3, paragraph 2, sentence 2 (spelling) -
>
> old/exaclty one;/
> new/exactly one/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>



________________________________

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 14:20:57 -0700
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To: Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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--0000000000001b6635058a9a2d4d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Joel,
thank you for your review and the pointed questions. Please find my
answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg


On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
> Review result: Has Issues
>
> Hello,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
> The
> Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts
> as
> they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing
> ADs.
> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
> would
> be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
> comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion
> or by
> updating the draft.
>
> Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
> Reviewer: your-name
> Review Date: date
> IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
> Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
>
> Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for publication as a
> Proposed Standard RFC.
>
> Major issues:
>     The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In places, this looks like
> it is
>     intended to be used by the underlay service provider,  who will
> monitor the
>     connectivity between VTEPs.

GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to instantiate a BFD
session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that VXLAN part of
forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may monitor the path between
the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment in the transport,
ensuring that that BFD session follows the same path as VXLAN data may be
challenging.

> In other places it seems to be aimed at
>     monitoring individual VNIs.

GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to monitor the
particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated path state
signaling, the change of VNI state using the method described in Section
6.8.17 RFC 5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.

> This is made worse when the packet format is
>     laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with an IP packet
> (with
>     UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant packet.

GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests that the BFD
control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered to a tenant?

> The IP address is
>     a tenant IP.

GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to the inner IP header:
       IP header:

         Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.

         Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.

But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the
>     VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
>


>    There is further confusion as to whether the processing is driven by
> the VNI
>    the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
>
GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 states:
 6.  Use of the Specific VNI

   In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP
   to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the
   number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session is used to
   monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD
   choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
>
>
> Minor Issues:
>    N/A
>
> Nits: N/A
>
>

--0000000000001b6635058a9a2d4d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=C2=A0Joel,<div>thank you for your revi=
ew and the pointed questions. Please find my answers, comments in-line and =
tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><di=
v><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatrac=
ker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: Joel =
Halpern<br>
Review result: Has Issues<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th=
e<br>
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a=
s<br>
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special<=
br>
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing =
ADs.<br>
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/Rt=
gDir</a><br>
<br>
Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo=
uld<br>
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call<b=
r>
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or=
 by<br>
updating the draft.<br>
<br>
Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07<br>
Reviewer: your-name<br>
Review Date: date<br>
IETF LC End Date: date-if-known<br>
Intended Status: copy-from-I-D<br>
<br>
Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for publication as a<br>
Proposed Standard RFC.<br>
<br>
Major issues:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.=C2=A0 In places, thi=
s looks like it is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 intended to be used by the underlay service provider,=C2=A0 w=
ho will monitor the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 connectivity between VTEPs.=C2=A0 </blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&g=
t; I think that the DCI provider would not be able to instantiate a BFD ses=
sion using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that VXLAN part of fo=
rwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may monitor the path between t=
he two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment in the transport, ensurin=
g that that BFD session follows the same path as VXLAN data may be challeng=
ing.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In other =
places it seems to be aimed at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 monitoring individual VNIs. </blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The=
 BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to monitor the particular V=
NI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated path state signaling, th=
e change of VNI state using the method described in <a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17">Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880</a>.=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">This is made worse w=
hen the packet format is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 laid out.=C2=A0 The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with a=
n IP packet (with<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 UDP, with BFD).=C2=A0 This means that it is a tenant packet.=
=C2=A0</blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Could you please point to the text whic=
h suggests that the BFD control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be deli=
vered to a tenant?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"> The IP address is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a tenant IP.=C2=A0 </blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The explanat=
ion of the format states in regard to the inner IP header:</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP header:</div><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 VTEP.=C2=A0 Which is not a tenant entity.<br></blockquote><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0There is further confusion as to whether the processing is dri=
ven by the VNI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.<br></blockquot=
e><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 sta=
tes:</div><div>=C2=A06.=C2=A0 Use of the Specific VNI</div><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of th=
e<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of VNIs in common.=C2=A0 When the single BFD sessi=
on is used to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, =
an implementation SHOULD<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0choose any of the VNIs but MAY cho=
ose VNI =3D 0.<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Minor Issues:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0N/A<br>
<br>
Nits: N/A<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000001b6635058a9a2d4d--


From nobody Wed Jun  5 14:48:11 2019
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <155864919758.8626.11137277913302380197@ietfa.amsl.com> <CA+RyBmXO5tYtrm_79KOKJmTp2mbYwynze20EoJA=2gGnJ5jEsw@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant packet for the 
tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the inner packet.

If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then that flag 
bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht it will 
intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner source or 
dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner packet can just 
be OAM payload.

If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP knows that 
the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than belonging to the 
tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses away from 
the tenant.

It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to work.  If 
so, it needs better explanation.

Yours,
Joel

On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> thank you for your review and the pointed questions. Please find my 
> answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
> 
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker 
> <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>     Review result: Has Issues
> 
>     Hello,
> 
>     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
>     draft. The
>     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
>     drafts as
>     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on
>     special
>     request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
>     Routing ADs.
>     For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
>     http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> 
>     Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing
>     ADs, it would
>     be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last
>     Call
>     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
>     discussion or by
>     updating the draft.
> 
>     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
>     Reviewer: your-name
>     Review Date: date
>     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
>     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
> 
>     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for publication as a
>     Proposed Standard RFC.
> 
>     Major issues:
>          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In places, this looks
>     like it is
>          intended to be used by the underlay service provider,  who will
>     monitor the
>          connectivity between VTEPs. 
> 
> GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to instantiate a 
> BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that VXLAN 
> part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may monitor the 
> path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment in the 
> transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same path as VXLAN 
> data may be challenging.
> 
>     In other places it seems to be aimed at
>          monitoring individual VNIs. 
> 
> GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to monitor the 
> particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated path 
> state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method described in 
> Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
> 
>     This is made worse when the packet format is
>          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with an IP
>     packet (with
>          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant packet. 
> 
> GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests that the BFD 
> control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered to a tenant?
> 
>     The IP address is
>          a tenant IP. 
> 
> GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to the inner IP header:
>         IP header:
> 
>           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
> 
>           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.
> 
>     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the
>          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
> 
>         There is further confusion as to whether the processing is
>     driven by the VNI
>         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
> 
> GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 states:
>   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
> 
>     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP
>     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the
>     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session is used to
>     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD
>     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
> 
> 
>     Minor Issues:
>         N/A
> 
>     Nits: N/A
> 


From nobody Wed Jun  5 18:56:14 2019
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 18:55:42 -0700
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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Hi Joel,
I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any
VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to a VM
associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in section 4.1
that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM conditional to the
destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
   Upon reception, the remote VTEP
   verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not there is a VM on
   that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner destination MAC
   address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating headers
   and passed on to the destination VM.
BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the processing of the
received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
   Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  If the
   Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC address of the
   VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.

   The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet MUST be
   validated to determine if the received packet can be processed by
   BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address MUST NOT be
   forwarded to VMs.
Would this text address your concern?

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

> The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant packet for the
> tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the inner packet.
>
> If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then that flag
> bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht it will
> intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner source or
> dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner packet can just
> be OAM payload.
>
> If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP knows that
> the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than belonging to the
> tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses away from
> the tenant.
>
> It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to work.  If
> so, it needs better explanation.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> > thank you for your review and the pointed questions. Please find my
> > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker
> > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
> >     Review result: Has Issues
> >
> >     Hello,
> >
> >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
> >     draft. The
> >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
> >     drafts as
> >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on
> >     special
> >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
> >     Routing ADs.
> >     For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> >     http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> >
> >     Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing
> >     ADs, it would
> >     be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last
> >     Call
> >     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
> >     discussion or by
> >     updating the draft.
> >
> >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
> >     Reviewer: your-name
> >     Review Date: date
> >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
> >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
> >
> >     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for publication
> as a
> >     Proposed Standard RFC.
> >
> >     Major issues:
> >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In places, this looks
> >     like it is
> >          intended to be used by the underlay service provider,  who will
> >     monitor the
> >          connectivity between VTEPs.
> >
> > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to instantiate a
> > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that VXLAN
> > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may monitor the
> > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment in the
> > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same path as VXLAN
> > data may be challenging.
> >
> >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
> >          monitoring individual VNIs.
> >
> > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to monitor the
> > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated path
> > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method described in
> > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
> > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
> >
> >     This is made worse when the packet format is
> >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with an IP
> >     packet (with
> >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant packet.
> >
> > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests that the BFD
> > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered to a tenant?
> >
> >     The IP address is
> >          a tenant IP.
> >
> > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to the inner IP
> header:
> >         IP header:
> >
> >           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
> >
> >           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.
> >
> >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the
> >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
> >
> >         There is further confusion as to whether the processing is
> >     driven by the VNI
> >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
> >
> > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 states:
> >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
> >
> >     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP
> >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the
> >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session is used to
> >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD
> >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
> >
> >
> >     Minor Issues:
> >         N/A
> >
> >     Nits: N/A
> >
>

--0000000000009146e9058a9e0352
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Joel,<div>I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that sugge=
sts that any VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to=
 a VM associated with the specified VNI. But I&#39;ve found the text in sec=
tion 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM conditional to =
the destination MAC address matching to VM&#39;s MAC:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Upon reception, the remote VTEP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0verifies the validity of=
 the VNI and whether or not there is a VM on<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0that VNI using=
 a MAC address that matches the inner destination MAC<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0addre=
ss.=C2=A0 If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating headers<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0and passed on to the destination VM.<br></div><div>BFD over VXLAN=
 specification in section 5 clarifies the processing of the received VXLAN =
packet by the remote VXLAN:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Once a packet is receive=
d, VTEP MUST validate the packet.=C2=A0 If the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination =
MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC address of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0V=
TEP the packet MUST be processed further.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The UDP desti=
nation port and the TTL of the inner IP packet MUST be<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0vali=
dated to determine if the received packet can be processed by<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0BFD.=C2=A0 BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP&#39;s MAC address MUST =
NOT be<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarded to VMs.<br></div><div>Would this text addr=
ess your concern?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelh=
alpern.com">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a =
VNI is a tenant packet for the <br>
tenant identified by the VNI.=C2=A0 That is the meaning of the inner packet=
.<br>
<br>
If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then that flag <br>
bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht it will <br>
intercept the packet.=C2=A0 As such, it doesn;t need special inner source o=
r <br>
dest mac addresses or IP addresses.=C2=A0 In fact, the inner packet can jus=
t <br>
be OAM payload.<br>
<br>
If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP knows that <br=
>
the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than belonging to the <br=
>
tenant.=C2=A0 As far as I know we are not free to take addresses away from =
<br>
the tenant.<br>
<br>
It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to work.=C2=A0 =
If <br>
so, it needs better explanation.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi=C2=A0Joel,<br>
&gt; thank you for your review and the pointed questions. Please find my <b=
r>
&gt; answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
oreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Reviewer: Joel Halpern<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Review result: Has Issues<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have been selected as the Routing Directorate rev=
iewer for this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or =
routing-related<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drafts as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, a=
nd sometimes on<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0special<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0request. The purpose of the review is to provide as=
sistance to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Routing ADs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For more information about the Routing Directorate,=
 please see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac=
/wiki/RtgDir" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.o=
rg/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Although these comments are primarily for the use o=
f the Routing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ADs, it would<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be helpful if you could consider them along with an=
y other IETF Last<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Call<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comments that you receive, and strive to resolve th=
em through<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion or by<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0updating the draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Reviewer: your-name<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Review Date: date<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF LC End Date: date-if-known<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Intended Status: copy-from-I-D<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Summary: This document does not appear to be ready =
for publication as a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Proposed Standard RFC.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Major issues:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The scoping of the BFD usage is uncl=
ear.=C2=A0 In places, this looks<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like it is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 intended to be used by the underlay =
service provider,=C2=A0 who will<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 connectivity between VTEPs. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the DCI provider would not be able to instant=
iate a <br>
&gt; BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that VXLA=
N <br>
&gt; part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may monitor the=
 <br>
&gt; path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment in the=
 <br>
&gt; transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same path as VXL=
AN <br>
&gt; data may be challenging.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In other places it seems to be aimed at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 monitoring individual VNIs. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to moni=
tor the <br>
&gt; particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated path <b=
r>
&gt; state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method described in=
 <br>
&gt; Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880 <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#secti=
on-6.8.17</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is made worse when the packet format is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 laid out.=C2=A0 The inner packet is =
an Ethernet Packet with an IP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet (with<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 UDP, with BFD).=C2=A0 This means tha=
t it is a tenant packet. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Could you please point to the text which suggests that the=
 BFD <br>
&gt; control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered to a tenant?<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IP address is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a tenant IP. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The explanation of the format states in regard to the inne=
r IP header:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP header:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Source IP: IP address of the o=
riginating VTEP.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination IP: IP address of =
the terminating VTEP.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the diagram shows this as being the IP address =
of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 VTEP.=C2=A0 Which is not a tenant en=
tity.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is further confusion as to whet=
her the processing is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0driven by the VNI<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet arrived with, or the VNI i=
s ignored.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 state=
s:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A06.=C2=A0 Use of the Specific VNI<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient f=
or the given VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regar=
dless of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0number of VNIs in common.=C2=A0 When the single BFD=
 session is used to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an imp=
lementation SHOULD<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI =3D 0.<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Minor Issues:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0N/A<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nits: N/A<br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000009146e9058a9e0352--


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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 23:20:38 -0400
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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I am having trouble parsing your response.  Apologies.
The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and determining if 
there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.  That is a quote from 7348 
Section 4.1.  I understand it.

You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN 
specification saying that it modifies this to specify that the VTEP 
checks for its own MAC address.
The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant network. 
Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the tenant network. 
As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their own 
MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.

Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a VNI that 
is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away.  But again, 
there is no need for special MAC checking.  Just declare that the VTEP 
looks for OAM content on VNI 0.

So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as "VTEP's MAC 
address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined term.  I am 
happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within tenant VNIs.

Yours,
Joel

On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any 
> VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to a VM 
> associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in section 
> 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM conditional to 
> the destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
>     Upon reception, the remote VTEP
>     verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not there is a VM on
>     that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner destination MAC
>     address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating headers
>     and passed on to the destination VM.
> BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the processing of 
> the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
>     Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  If the
>     Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC address of the
>     VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.
> 
>     The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet MUST be
>     validated to determine if the received packet can be processed by
>     BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address MUST NOT be
>     forwarded to VMs.
> Would this text address your concern?
> 
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> 
>     The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant packet for
>     the
>     tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the inner packet.
> 
>     If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then that flag
>     bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht it will
>     intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner source or
>     dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner packet can just
>     be OAM payload.
> 
>     If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP knows that
>     the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than belonging to the
>     tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses away from
>     the tenant.
> 
>     It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to
>     work.  If
>     so, it needs better explanation.
> 
>     Yours,
>     Joel
> 
>     On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>      > Hi Joel,
>      > thank you for your review and the pointed questions. Please find my
>      > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
>      >
>      > Regards,
>      > Greg
>      >
>      >
>      > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker
>      > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>      >     Review result: Has Issues
>      >
>      >     Hello,
>      >
>      >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
>      >     draft. The
>      >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
>     routing-related
>      >     drafts as
>      >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
>     sometimes on
>      >     special
>      >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance
>     to the
>      >     Routing ADs.
>      >     For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
>      > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>      >
>      >     Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing
>      >     ADs, it would
>      >     be helpful if you could consider them along with any other
>     IETF Last
>      >     Call
>      >     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
>      >     discussion or by
>      >     updating the draft.
>      >
>      >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
>      >     Reviewer: your-name
>      >     Review Date: date
>      >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
>      >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
>      >
>      >     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for
>     publication as a
>      >     Proposed Standard RFC.
>      >
>      >     Major issues:
>      >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In places,
>     this looks
>      >     like it is
>      >          intended to be used by the underlay service provider, 
>     who will
>      >     monitor the
>      >          connectivity between VTEPs.
>      >
>      > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to
>     instantiate a
>      > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that
>     VXLAN
>      > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may
>     monitor the
>      > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment
>     in the
>      > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same path
>     as VXLAN
>      > data may be challenging.
>      >
>      >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
>      >          monitoring individual VNIs.
>      >
>      > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to
>     monitor the
>      > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated path
>      > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method
>     described in
>      > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
>      > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
>      >
>      >     This is made worse when the packet format is
>      >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with an IP
>      >     packet (with
>      >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant packet.
>      >
>      > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests that the BFD
>      > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered to a tenant?
>      >
>      >     The IP address is
>      >          a tenant IP.
>      >
>      > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to the inner
>     IP header:
>      >         IP header:
>      >
>      >           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
>      >
>      >           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.
>      >
>      >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the
>      >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
>      >
>      >         There is further confusion as to whether the processing is
>      >     driven by the VNI
>      >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
>      >
>      > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 states:
>      >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
>      >
>      >     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the
>     given VTEP
>      >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the
>      >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session is used to
>      >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an
>     implementation SHOULD
>      >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
>      >
>      >
>      >     Minor Issues:
>      >         N/A
>      >
>      >     Nits: N/A
>      >
> 


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 17:18:08 -0700
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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Hi Joel,
thank you for the clarification of your concern. For the inner Ethernet
header, the destination and source MAC addresses are as described in
Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN's outer Ethernet header:
     The outer destination MAC address in this frame may
      be the address of the target VTEP or of an intermediate Layer 3
      router.
As I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address assigned. The
address used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet frame and may
be used by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the outer Ethernet
frame. This MAC address is not, as I understand, associated with any VNI.
Perhaps we can add text to point to Section 5 RFC 7348 and how VTEP MAC
address is used in the outer Ethernet header of a VXLAN packet. If you
agree, I'll polish the new update in a day.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

> I am having trouble parsing your response.  Apologies.
> The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and determining if
> there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.  That is a quote from 7348
> Section 4.1.  I understand it.
>
> You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN
> specification saying that it modifies this to specify that the VTEP
> checks for its own MAC address.
> The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant network.
> Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the tenant network.
> As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their own
> MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
>
> Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a VNI that
> is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away.  But again,
> there is no need for special MAC checking.  Just declare that the VTEP
> looks for OAM content on VNI 0.
>
> So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as "VTEP's MAC
> address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined term.  I am
> happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within tenant VNIs.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> > I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any
> > VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to a VM
> > associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in section
> > 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM conditional to
> > the destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
> >     Upon reception, the remote VTEP
> >     verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not there is a VM on
> >     that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner destination MAC
> >     address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating headers
> >     and passed on to the destination VM.
> > BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the processing of
> > the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
> >     Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  If the
> >     Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC address of the
> >     VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.
> >
> >     The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet MUST be
> >     validated to determine if the received packet can be processed by
> >     BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address MUST NOT be
> >     forwarded to VMs.
> > Would this text address your concern?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant packet for
> >     the
> >     tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the inner
> packet.
> >
> >     If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then that flag
> >     bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht it will
> >     intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner source
> or
> >     dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner packet can
> just
> >     be OAM payload.
> >
> >     If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP knows
> that
> >     the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than belonging to
> the
> >     tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses away from
> >     the tenant.
> >
> >     It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to
> >     work.  If
> >     so, it needs better explanation.
> >
> >     Yours,
> >     Joel
> >
> >     On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> >      > Hi Joel,
> >      > thank you for your review and the pointed questions. Please find
> my
> >      > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
> >      >
> >      > Regards,
> >      > Greg
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker
> >      > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
> >      >     Review result: Has Issues
> >      >
> >      >     Hello,
> >      >
> >      >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for
> this
> >      >     draft. The
> >      >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
> >     routing-related
> >      >     drafts as
> >      >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
> >     sometimes on
> >      >     special
> >      >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance
> >     to the
> >      >     Routing ADs.
> >      >     For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> >      > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> >      >
> >      >     Although these comments are primarily for the use of the
> Routing
> >      >     ADs, it would
> >      >     be helpful if you could consider them along with any other
> >     IETF Last
> >      >     Call
> >      >     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
> >      >     discussion or by
> >      >     updating the draft.
> >      >
> >      >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
> >      >     Reviewer: your-name
> >      >     Review Date: date
> >      >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
> >      >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
> >      >
> >      >     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for
> >     publication as a
> >      >     Proposed Standard RFC.
> >      >
> >      >     Major issues:
> >      >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In places,
> >     this looks
> >      >     like it is
> >      >          intended to be used by the underlay service provider,
> >     who will
> >      >     monitor the
> >      >          connectivity between VTEPs.
> >      >
> >      > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to
> >     instantiate a
> >      > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly, monitor that
> >     VXLAN
> >      > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may
> >     monitor the
> >      > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP environment
> >     in the
> >      > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same path
> >     as VXLAN
> >      > data may be challenging.
> >      >
> >      >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
> >      >          monitoring individual VNIs.
> >      >
> >      > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to
> >     monitor the
> >      > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as concatenated
> path
> >      > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method
> >     described in
> >      > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
> >      > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
> >      >
> >      >     This is made worse when the packet format is
> >      >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with
> an IP
> >      >     packet (with
> >      >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant packet.
> >      >
> >      > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests that the
> BFD
> >      > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered to a
> tenant?
> >      >
> >      >     The IP address is
> >      >          a tenant IP.
> >      >
> >      > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to the inner
> >     IP header:
> >      >         IP header:
> >      >
> >      >           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
> >      >
> >      >           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.
> >      >
> >      >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the
> >      >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
> >      >
> >      >         There is further confusion as to whether the processing is
> >      >     driven by the VNI
> >      >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
> >      >
> >      > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6 states:
> >      >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
> >      >
> >      >     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the
> >     given VTEP
> >      >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of
> the
> >      >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session is
> used to
> >      >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an
> >     implementation SHOULD
> >      >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >     Minor Issues:
> >      >         N/A
> >      >
> >      >     Nits: N/A
> >      >
> >
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Joel,<div>thank you for the clarification of your conce=
rn. For the inner Ethernet header, the destination and source MAC addresses=
 are as described in Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN&#39;s outer Ethernet h=
eader:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The outer destination MAC address in t=
his frame may<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be the address of the target VTEP or =
of an intermediate Layer 3<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 router.<br></div><div>As=
 I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address assigned. The addr=
ess used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet frame and may be u=
sed by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the outer Ethernet frame=
. This MAC address is not, as I understand, associated with any VNI. Perhap=
s we can add text to point to Section 5 RFC 7348 and how VTEP MAC address i=
s used in the outer Ethernet header of a VXLAN packet. If you agree, I&#39;=
ll polish the new update in a day.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><=
div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I am having trouble pars=
ing your response.=C2=A0 Apologies.<br>
The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and determining if <b=
r>
there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.=C2=A0 That is a quote from 7348 <=
br>
Section 4.1.=C2=A0 I understand it.<br>
<br>
You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN <br>
specification saying that it modifies this to specify that the VTEP <br>
checks for its own MAC address.<br>
The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant network. <br>
Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the tenant network. <br=
>
As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their own <b=
r>
MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.<br>
<br>
Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a VNI that <br>
is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away.=C2=A0 But again,=
 <br>
there is no need for special MAC checking.=C2=A0 Just declare that the VTEP=
 <br>
looks for OAM content on VNI 0.<br>
<br>
So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as &quot;VTEP&#39;=
s MAC <br>
address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined term.=C2=A0 I a=
m <br>
happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within tenant VNIs.=
<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Joel,<br>
&gt; I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any <br>
&gt; VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to a VM <b=
r>
&gt; associated with the specified VNI. But I&#39;ve found the text in sect=
ion <br>
&gt; 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM conditional to =
<br>
&gt; the destination MAC address matching to VM&#39;s MAC:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon reception, the remote VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not=
 there is a VM on<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner=
 destination MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address.=C2=A0 If so, the packet is stripped of its=
 encapsulating headers<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and passed on to the destination VM.<br>
&gt; BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the processing of =
<br>
&gt; the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the p=
acket.=C2=A0 If the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the =
MAC address of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner I=
P packet MUST be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0validated to determine if the received packet can b=
e processed by<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD.=C2=A0 BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP&#3=
9;s MAC address MUST NOT be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarded to VMs.<br>
&gt; Would this text address your concern?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
mh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a> <br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jm=
h@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a =
tenant packet for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tenant identified by the VNI.=C2=A0 That is the mea=
ning of the inner packet.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you declare that the flag bits change that meani=
ng, then that flag<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP=
 such taht it will<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intercept the packet.=C2=A0 As such, it doesn;t nee=
d special inner source or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dest mac addresses or IP addresses.=C2=A0 In fact, =
the inner packet can just<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be OAM payload.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If that is not what you intend, then how is it that=
 the VTEP knows that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather t=
han belonging to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tenant.=C2=A0 As far as I know we are not free to t=
ake addresses away from<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the tenant.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It may be that I am completely missing how this is =
supposed to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work.=C2=A0 If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so, it needs better explanation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Hi=C2=A0Joel,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; thank you for your review and the pointed que=
stions. Please find my<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM&gt;&=
gt;.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Greg<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern =
via Datatracker<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Reviewer: Joel Halpern<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Review result: Has Issues<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have been selected as th=
e Routing Directorate reviewer for this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Routing Directorate seeks =
to review all routing or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing-related<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drafts as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they pass through IETF las=
t call and IESG review, and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sometimes on<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0special<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0request. The purpose of th=
e review is to provide assistance<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Routing ADs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For more information about=
 the Routing Directorate, please see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rt=
g/trac/wiki/RtgDir" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.=
ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Although these comments ar=
e primarily for the use of the Routing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ADs, it would<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be helpful if you could co=
nsider them along with any other<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Last<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Call<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comments that you receive,=
 and strive to resolve them through<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion or by<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0updating the draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-=
vxlan-07<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Reviewer: your-name<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Review Date: date<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF LC End Date: date-if-=
known<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Intended Status: copy-from=
-I-D<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Summary: This document doe=
s not appear to be ready for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publication as a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Proposed Standard RFC.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Major issues:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The scoping=
 of the BFD usage is unclear.=C2=A0 In places,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this looks<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like it is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 intended to=
 be used by the underlay service provider, <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0who will<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 connectivit=
y between VTEPs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the DCI provider wou=
ld not be able to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0instantiate a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, po=
ssibly, monitor that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VXLAN<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; part of forwarding operates properly. Such BF=
D session may<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; path between the two VTEP but, if there exist=
s ECMP environment<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; transport, ensuring that that BFD session fol=
lows the same path<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as VXLAN<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; data may be challenging.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In other places it seems t=
o be aimed at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 monitoring =
individual VNIs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The BFD session between VTEPs is =
not actually used to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate=
, as concatenated path<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; state signaling, the change of VNI state usin=
g the method<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf=
c5880#section-6.8.17" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is made worse when th=
e packet format is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 laid out.=
=C2=A0 The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet with an IP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet (with<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 UDP, with B=
FD).=C2=A0 This means that it is a tenant packet.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Could you please point to the tex=
t which suggests that the BFD<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to b=
e delivered to a tenant?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IP address is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a tenant IP=
.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The explanation of the format sta=
tes in regard to the inner<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP header:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP header:<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sourc=
e IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Desti=
nation IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the diagram shows this=
 as being the IP address of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 VTEP.=C2=A0=
 Which is not a tenant entity.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is fur=
ther confusion as to whether the processing is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0driven by the VNI<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet a=
rrived with, or the VNI is ignored.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The use of VNI is implementation =
specific. Section 6 states:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A06.=C2=A0 Use of the Specific VNI<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In most cases, a single BF=
D session is sufficient for the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0given VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to monitor the reachabilit=
y of a remote VTEP, regardless of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0number of VNIs in common.=
=C2=A0 When the single BFD session is used to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the reachability o=
f the remote VTEP, an<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation SHOULD<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0choose any of the VNIs but=
 MAY choose VNI =3D 0.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Minor Issues:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0N/A<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nits: N/A<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000008210e6058ab0c4d3--


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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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There is a reason the "Outer Ethernet Header" in section 5 of 7348 is 
labeled as "example".  That outer header will actually vary hop by hop 
along the IP network between the source VTEP and the desination VTEP.
Unless the source and destination VTEP are one IP hope apart, the source 
VTEP will not even know the Ethernet MAC address of the destination VP. 
It will simply address the outer IP packet, and let IP rotuing do its 
job (that is the whole point of VxLAN.)

More importantly, it is not associated with any VNI as it is the outer 
header.  Your usage is as an inner Ethernet Destination address.  The 
inner Ethernet header is the tenant space.  The VTEPs do not impinge on 
that space.  Nor use any values from it.

Yours,
Joel

On 6/6/19 8:18 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> thank you for the clarification of your concern. For the inner Ethernet 
> header, the destination and source MAC addresses are as described in 
> Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN's outer Ethernet header:
>       The outer destination MAC address in this frame may
>        be the address of the target VTEP or of an intermediate Layer 3
>        router.
> As I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address assigned. The 
> address used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet frame and 
> may be used by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the outer 
> Ethernet frame. This MAC address is not, as I understand, associated 
> with any VNI. Perhaps we can add text to point to Section 5 RFC 7348 and 
> how VTEP MAC address is used in the outer Ethernet header of a VXLAN 
> packet. If you agree, I'll polish the new update in a day.
> 
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I am having trouble parsing your response.  Apologies.
>     The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and
>     determining if
>     there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.  That is a quote from 7348
>     Section 4.1.  I understand it.
> 
>     You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN
>     specification saying that it modifies this to specify that the VTEP
>     checks for its own MAC address.
>     The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant network.
>     Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the tenant network.
>     As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their
>     own
>     MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
> 
>     Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a VNI that
>     is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away.  But again,
>     there is no need for special MAC checking.  Just declare that the VTEP
>     looks for OAM content on VNI 0.
> 
>     So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as "VTEP's MAC
>     address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined term.  I am
>     happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within
>     tenant VNIs.
> 
>     Yours,
>     Joel
> 
>     On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>      > Hi Joel,
>      > I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any
>      > VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to a VM
>      > associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in
>     section
>      > 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM
>     conditional to
>      > the destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
>      >     Upon reception, the remote VTEP
>      >     verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not there is
>     a VM on
>      >     that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner
>     destination MAC
>      >     address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating
>     headers
>      >     and passed on to the destination VM.
>      > BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the
>     processing of
>      > the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
>      >     Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  If the
>      >     Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC
>     address of the
>      >     VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.
>      >
>      >     The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet
>     MUST be
>      >     validated to determine if the received packet can be processed by
>      >     BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address
>     MUST NOT be
>      >     forwarded to VMs.
>      > Would this text address your concern?
>      >
>      > Regards,
>      > Greg
>      >
>      > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern
>     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant
>     packet for
>      >     the
>      >     tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the
>     inner packet.
>      >
>      >     If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then
>     that flag
>      >     bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht
>     it will
>      >     intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner
>     source or
>      >     dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner
>     packet can just
>      >     be OAM payload.
>      >
>      >     If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP
>     knows that
>      >     the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than
>     belonging to the
>      >     tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses
>     away from
>      >     the tenant.
>      >
>      >     It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to
>      >     work.  If
>      >     so, it needs better explanation.
>      >
>      >     Yours,
>      >     Joel
>      >
>      >     On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>      >      > Hi Joel,
>      >      > thank you for your review and the pointed questions.
>     Please find my
>      >      > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
>      >      >
>      >      > Regards,
>      >      > Greg
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker
>      >      > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>
>      >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>>> wrote:
>      >      >
>      >      >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>      >      >     Review result: Has Issues
>      >      >
>      >      >     Hello,
>      >      >
>      >      >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate
>     reviewer for this
>      >      >     draft. The
>      >      >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
>      >     routing-related
>      >      >     drafts as
>      >      >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
>      >     sometimes on
>      >      >     special
>      >      >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide
>     assistance
>      >     to the
>      >      >     Routing ADs.
>      >      >     For more information about the Routing Directorate,
>     please see
>      >      > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>      >      >
>      >      >     Although these comments are primarily for the use of
>     the Routing
>      >      >     ADs, it would
>      >      >     be helpful if you could consider them along with any other
>      >     IETF Last
>      >      >     Call
>      >      >     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them
>     through
>      >      >     discussion or by
>      >      >     updating the draft.
>      >      >
>      >      >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
>      >      >     Reviewer: your-name
>      >      >     Review Date: date
>      >      >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
>      >      >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
>      >      >
>      >      >     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for
>      >     publication as a
>      >      >     Proposed Standard RFC.
>      >      >
>      >      >     Major issues:
>      >      >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In places,
>      >     this looks
>      >      >     like it is
>      >      >          intended to be used by the underlay service
>     provider,
>      >     who will
>      >      >     monitor the
>      >      >          connectivity between VTEPs.
>      >      >
>      >      > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to
>      >     instantiate a
>      >      > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly,
>     monitor that
>      >     VXLAN
>      >      > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may
>      >     monitor the
>      >      > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP
>     environment
>      >     in the
>      >      > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same
>     path
>      >     as VXLAN
>      >      > data may be challenging.
>      >      >
>      >      >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
>      >      >          monitoring individual VNIs.
>      >      >
>      >      > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to
>      >     monitor the
>      >      > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as
>     concatenated path
>      >      > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method
>      >     described in
>      >      > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
>      >      > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
>      >      >
>      >      >     This is made worse when the packet format is
>      >      >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet
>     with an IP
>      >      >     packet (with
>      >      >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant
>     packet.
>      >      >
>      >      > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests
>     that the BFD
>      >      > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered
>     to a tenant?
>      >      >
>      >      >     The IP address is
>      >      >          a tenant IP.
>      >      >
>      >      > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to
>     the inner
>      >     IP header:
>      >      >         IP header:
>      >      >
>      >      >           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
>      >      >
>      >      >           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.
>      >      >
>      >      >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the
>      >      >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
>      >      >
>      >      >         There is further confusion as to whether the
>     processing is
>      >      >     driven by the VNI
>      >      >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
>      >      >
>      >      > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6
>     states:
>      >      >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
>      >      >
>      >      >     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the
>      >     given VTEP
>      >      >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP,
>     regardless of the
>      >      >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session
>     is used to
>      >      >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an
>      >     implementation SHOULD
>      >      >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      >     Minor Issues:
>      >      >         N/A
>      >      >
>      >      >     Nits: N/A
>      >      >
>      >
> 


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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/NaXvjfm3TTHGS-N8OCff8DXRUxo>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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I have looked again at the base VxLAN spec, the BFD spec, and the draft 
we are discussing.
There seems to be a MUCH simpler frame encapsulation which avoids 
messing with the inner Ethernet header address space.

1) Declare that VxLAN BFD always uses VNI 0
2) Use one of the reserved bits, and define it to mean that the VxLAN 
payload, when the VNI is 0, is a BFD payload without any Ethernet, IP, 
or UDP header.

That would seem to monitor what the document says it wants to monitor.

Yours,
Joel

On 6/6/19 8:53 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> There is a reason the "Outer Ethernet Header" in section 5 of 7348 is 
> labeled as "example".  That outer header will actually vary hop by hop 
> along the IP network between the source VTEP and the desination VTEP.
> Unless the source and destination VTEP are one IP hope apart, the source 
> VTEP will not even know the Ethernet MAC address of the destination VP. 
> It will simply address the outer IP packet, and let IP rotuing do its 
> job (that is the whole point of VxLAN.)
> 
> More importantly, it is not associated with any VNI as it is the outer 
> header.  Your usage is as an inner Ethernet Destination address.  The 
> inner Ethernet header is the tenant space.  The VTEPs do not impinge on 
> that space.  Nor use any values from it.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 6/6/19 8:18 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>> Hi Joel,
>> thank you for the clarification of your concern. For the inner 
>> Ethernet header, the destination and source MAC addresses are as 
>> described in Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN's outer Ethernet header:
>>       The outer destination MAC address in this frame may
>>        be the address of the target VTEP or of an intermediate Layer 3
>>        router.
>> As I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address assigned. 
>> The address used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet frame 
>> and may be used by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the 
>> outer Ethernet frame. This MAC address is not, as I understand, 
>> associated with any VNI. Perhaps we can add text to point to Section 5 
>> RFC 7348 and how VTEP MAC address is used in the outer Ethernet header 
>> of a VXLAN packet. If you agree, I'll polish the new update in a day.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
>> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     I am having trouble parsing your response.  Apologies.
>>     The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and
>>     determining if
>>     there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.  That is a quote from 7348
>>     Section 4.1.  I understand it.
>>
>>     You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN
>>     specification saying that it modifies this to specify that the VTEP
>>     checks for its own MAC address.
>>     The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant network.
>>     Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the tenant 
>> network.
>>     As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their
>>     own
>>     MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
>>
>>     Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a VNI 
>> that
>>     is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away.  But 
>> again,
>>     there is no need for special MAC checking.  Just declare that the 
>> VTEP
>>     looks for OAM content on VNI 0.
>>
>>     So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as 
>> "VTEP's MAC
>>     address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined term.  
>> I am
>>     happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within
>>     tenant VNIs.
>>
>>     Yours,
>>     Joel
>>
>>     On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>>      > Hi Joel,
>>      > I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any
>>      > VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to 
>> a VM
>>      > associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in
>>     section
>>      > 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM
>>     conditional to
>>      > the destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
>>      >     Upon reception, the remote VTEP
>>      >     verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not there is
>>     a VM on
>>      >     that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner
>>     destination MAC
>>      >     address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating
>>     headers
>>      >     and passed on to the destination VM.
>>      > BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the
>>     processing of
>>      > the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
>>      >     Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  
>> If the
>>      >     Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC
>>     address of the
>>      >     VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.
>>      >
>>      >     The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet
>>     MUST be
>>      >     validated to determine if the received packet can be 
>> processed by
>>      >     BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address
>>     MUST NOT be
>>      >     forwarded to VMs.
>>      > Would this text address your concern?
>>      >
>>      > Regards,
>>      > Greg
>>      >
>>      > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern
>>     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote:
>>      >
>>      >     The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant
>>     packet for
>>      >     the
>>      >     tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the
>>     inner packet.
>>      >
>>      >     If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then
>>     that flag
>>      >     bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht
>>     it will
>>      >     intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner
>>     source or
>>      >     dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner
>>     packet can just
>>      >     be OAM payload.
>>      >
>>      >     If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP
>>     knows that
>>      >     the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than
>>     belonging to the
>>      >     tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses
>>     away from
>>      >     the tenant.
>>      >
>>      >     It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to
>>      >     work.  If
>>      >     so, it needs better explanation.
>>      >
>>      >     Yours,
>>      >     Joel
>>      >
>>      >     On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>>      >      > Hi Joel,
>>      >      > thank you for your review and the pointed questions.
>>     Please find my
>>      >      > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
>>      >      >
>>      >      > Regards,
>>      >      > Greg
>>      >      >
>>      >      >
>>      >      > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via 
>> Datatracker
>>      >      > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>
>>      >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>>> wrote:
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>>      >      >     Review result: Has Issues
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Hello,
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate
>>     reviewer for this
>>      >      >     draft. The
>>      >      >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
>>      >     routing-related
>>      >      >     drafts as
>>      >      >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
>>      >     sometimes on
>>      >      >     special
>>      >      >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide
>>     assistance
>>      >     to the
>>      >      >     Routing ADs.
>>      >      >     For more information about the Routing Directorate,
>>     please see
>>      >      > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Although these comments are primarily for the use of
>>     the Routing
>>      >      >     ADs, it would
>>      >      >     be helpful if you could consider them along with any 
>> other
>>      >     IETF Last
>>      >      >     Call
>>      >      >     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them
>>     through
>>      >      >     discussion or by
>>      >      >     updating the draft.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
>>      >      >     Reviewer: your-name
>>      >      >     Review Date: date
>>      >      >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
>>      >      >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for
>>      >     publication as a
>>      >      >     Proposed Standard RFC.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Major issues:
>>      >      >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In 
>> places,
>>      >     this looks
>>      >      >     like it is
>>      >      >          intended to be used by the underlay service
>>     provider,
>>      >     who will
>>      >      >     monitor the
>>      >      >          connectivity between VTEPs.
>>      >      >
>>      >      > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to
>>      >     instantiate a
>>      >      > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly,
>>     monitor that
>>      >     VXLAN
>>      >      > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may
>>      >     monitor the
>>      >      > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP
>>     environment
>>      >     in the
>>      >      > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same
>>     path
>>      >     as VXLAN
>>      >      > data may be challenging.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
>>      >      >          monitoring individual VNIs.
>>      >      >
>>      >      > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to
>>      >     monitor the
>>      >      > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as
>>     concatenated path
>>      >      > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method
>>      >     described in
>>      >      > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
>>      >      > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     This is made worse when the packet format is
>>      >      >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet
>>     with an IP
>>      >      >     packet (with
>>      >      >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant
>>     packet.
>>      >      >
>>      >      > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests
>>     that the BFD
>>      >      > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered
>>     to a tenant?
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     The IP address is
>>      >      >          a tenant IP.
>>      >      >
>>      >      > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to
>>     the inner
>>      >     IP header:
>>      >      >         IP header:
>>      >      >
>>      >      >           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating 
>> VTEP.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address 
>> of the
>>      >      >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >         There is further confusion as to whether the
>>     processing is
>>      >      >     driven by the VNI
>>      >      >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
>>      >      >
>>      >      > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6
>>     states:
>>      >      >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient 
>> for the
>>      >     given VTEP
>>      >      >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP,
>>     regardless of the
>>      >      >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session
>>     is used to
>>      >      >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an
>>      >     implementation SHOULD
>>      >      >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
>>      >      >
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Minor Issues:
>>      >      >         N/A
>>      >      >
>>      >      >     Nits: N/A
>>      >      >
>>      >
>>
> 
> 


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 19:43:32 -0700
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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Hi Joel,
in the previous mail you've said:
>     As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their
>     own
>     MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
I agree and note that VTEP's MAC addresses used in the inner Ethernet
header don't have to be associated with a VNI. They are the same as used in
the outer Ethernet header. And the BFD over VXLAN specification does modify
the processing of the inner Ethernet frame comparing to the procedure
described in RFC 7348.
I don't say that the described method of encapsulating BFD over VXLAN is
the only one, but it is what has been discussed and supported by BFD WG.
Also, AFAIK, at least one implementation already exists.


Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 5:53 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

> There is a reason the "Outer Ethernet Header" in section 5 of 7348 is
> labeled as "example".  That outer header will actually vary hop by hop
> along the IP network between the source VTEP and the desination VTEP.
> Unless the source and destination VTEP are one IP hope apart, the source
> VTEP will not even know the Ethernet MAC address of the destination VP.
> It will simply address the outer IP packet, and let IP rotuing do its
> job (that is the whole point of VxLAN.)
>
> More importantly, it is not associated with any VNI as it is the outer
> header.  Your usage is as an inner Ethernet Destination address.  The
> inner Ethernet header is the tenant space.  The VTEPs do not impinge on
> that space.  Nor use any values from it.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 6/6/19 8:18 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> > thank you for the clarification of your concern. For the inner Ethernet
> > header, the destination and source MAC addresses are as described in
> > Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN's outer Ethernet header:
> >       The outer destination MAC address in this frame may
> >        be the address of the target VTEP or of an intermediate Layer 3
> >        router.
> > As I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address assigned. The
> > address used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet frame and
> > may be used by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the outer
> > Ethernet frame. This MAC address is not, as I understand, associated
> > with any VNI. Perhaps we can add text to point to Section 5 RFC 7348 and
> > how VTEP MAC address is used in the outer Ethernet header of a VXLAN
> > packet. If you agree, I'll polish the new update in a day.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     I am having trouble parsing your response.  Apologies.
> >     The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and
> >     determining if
> >     there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.  That is a quote from 7348
> >     Section 4.1.  I understand it.
> >
> >     You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN
> >     specification saying that it modifies this to specify that the VTEP
> >     checks for its own MAC address.
> >     The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant network.
> >     Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the tenant
> network.
> >     As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their
> >     own
> >     MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
> >
> >     Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a VNI
> that
> >     is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away.  But
> again,
> >     there is no need for special MAC checking.  Just declare that the
> VTEP
> >     looks for OAM content on VNI 0.
> >
> >     So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as "VTEP's
> MAC
> >     address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined term.  I
> am
> >     happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within
> >     tenant VNIs.
> >
> >     Yours,
> >     Joel
> >
> >     On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> >      > Hi Joel,
> >      > I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any
> >      > VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be forwarded to a
> VM
> >      > associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in
> >     section
> >      > 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM
> >     conditional to
> >      > the destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
> >      >     Upon reception, the remote VTEP
> >      >     verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not there is
> >     a VM on
> >      >     that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner
> >     destination MAC
> >      >     address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its encapsulating
> >     headers
> >      >     and passed on to the destination VM.
> >      > BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the
> >     processing of
> >      > the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
> >      >     Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  If
> the
> >      >     Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC
> >     address of the
> >      >     VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.
> >      >
> >      >     The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet
> >     MUST be
> >      >     validated to determine if the received packet can be
> processed by
> >      >     BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address
> >     MUST NOT be
> >      >     forwarded to VMs.
> >      > Would this text address your concern?
> >      >
> >      > Regards,
> >      > Greg
> >      >
> >      > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern
> >     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> >      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant
> >     packet for
> >      >     the
> >      >     tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the
> >     inner packet.
> >      >
> >      >     If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning, then
> >     that flag
> >      >     bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP such taht
> >     it will
> >      >     intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need special inner
> >     source or
> >      >     dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner
> >     packet can just
> >      >     be OAM payload.
> >      >
> >      >     If that is not what you intend, then how is it that the VTEP
> >     knows that
> >      >     the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than
> >     belonging to the
> >      >     tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take addresses
> >     away from
> >      >     the tenant.
> >      >
> >      >     It may be that I am completely missing how this is supposed to
> >      >     work.  If
> >      >     so, it needs better explanation.
> >      >
> >      >     Yours,
> >      >     Joel
> >      >
> >      >     On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> >      >      > Hi Joel,
> >      >      > thank you for your review and the pointed questions.
> >     Please find my
> >      >      > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > Regards,
> >      >      > Greg
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via
> Datatracker
> >      >      > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
> >      >      >     Review result: Has Issues
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Hello,
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate
> >     reviewer for this
> >      >      >     draft. The
> >      >      >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
> >      >     routing-related
> >      >      >     drafts as
> >      >      >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
> >      >     sometimes on
> >      >      >     special
> >      >      >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide
> >     assistance
> >      >     to the
> >      >      >     Routing ADs.
> >      >      >     For more information about the Routing Directorate,
> >     please see
> >      >      > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Although these comments are primarily for the use of
> >     the Routing
> >      >      >     ADs, it would
> >      >      >     be helpful if you could consider them along with any
> other
> >      >     IETF Last
> >      >      >     Call
> >      >      >     comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them
> >     through
> >      >      >     discussion or by
> >      >      >     updating the draft.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
> >      >      >     Reviewer: your-name
> >      >      >     Review Date: date
> >      >      >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
> >      >      >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Summary: This document does not appear to be ready for
> >      >     publication as a
> >      >      >     Proposed Standard RFC.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Major issues:
> >      >      >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.  In
> places,
> >      >     this looks
> >      >      >     like it is
> >      >      >          intended to be used by the underlay service
> >     provider,
> >      >     who will
> >      >      >     monitor the
> >      >      >          connectivity between VTEPs.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be able to
> >      >     instantiate a
> >      >      > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly,
> >     monitor that
> >      >     VXLAN
> >      >      > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD session may
> >      >     monitor the
> >      >      > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP
> >     environment
> >      >     in the
> >      >      > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows the same
> >     path
> >      >     as VXLAN
> >      >      > data may be challenging.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
> >      >      >          monitoring individual VNIs.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually used to
> >      >     monitor the
> >      >      > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as
> >     concatenated path
> >      >      > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the method
> >      >     described in
> >      >      > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
> >      >      > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     This is made worse when the packet format is
> >      >      >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet
> >     with an IP
> >      >      >     packet (with
> >      >      >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a tenant
> >     packet.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests
> >     that the BFD
> >      >      > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be delivered
> >     to a tenant?
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     The IP address is
> >      >      >          a tenant IP.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to
> >     the inner
> >      >     IP header:
> >      >      >         IP header:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >           Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >           Destination IP: IP address of the terminating
> VTEP.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP address of
> the
> >      >      >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >         There is further confusion as to whether the
> >     processing is
> >      >      >     driven by the VNI
> >      >      >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6
> >     states:
> >      >      >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for
> the
> >      >     given VTEP
> >      >      >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP,
> >     regardless of the
> >      >      >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD session
> >     is used to
> >      >      >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an
> >      >     implementation SHOULD
> >      >      >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Minor Issues:
> >      >      >         N/A
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Nits: N/A
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Joel,<div>in the previous mail you&#39=
;ve said:</div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I know, in normal VxL=
AN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0own<br>&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.=C2=A0</div>=
<div>I agree and note that VTEP&#39;s MAC addresses used in the inner Ether=
net header don&#39;t have to be associated with a VNI. They are the same as=
 used in the outer Ethernet header. And the BFD over VXLAN specification do=
es modify the processing of the inner Ethernet frame comparing to the proce=
dure described in RFC 7348.<br></div><div>I don&#39;t say that the describe=
d method of encapsulating BFD over VXLAN is the only one, but it is what ha=
s been discussed and supported by BFD WG. Also, AFAIK, at least one impleme=
ntation already exists.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</d=
iv><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 5:53 PM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There is a reason the &=
quot;Outer Ethernet Header&quot; in section 5 of 7348 is <br>
labeled as &quot;example&quot;.=C2=A0 That outer header will actually vary =
hop by hop <br>
along the IP network between the source VTEP and the desination VTEP.<br>
Unless the source and destination VTEP are one IP hope apart, the source <b=
r>
VTEP will not even know the Ethernet MAC address of the destination VP. <br=
>
It will simply address the outer IP packet, and let IP rotuing do its <br>
job (that is the whole point of VxLAN.)<br>
<br>
More importantly, it is not associated with any VNI as it is the outer <br>
header.=C2=A0 Your usage is as an inner Ethernet Destination address.=C2=A0=
 The <br>
inner Ethernet header is the tenant space.=C2=A0 The VTEPs do not impinge o=
n <br>
that space.=C2=A0 Nor use any values from it.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
On 6/6/19 8:18 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Joel,<br>
&gt; thank you for the clarification of your concern. For the inner Etherne=
t <br>
&gt; header, the destination and source MAC addresses are as described in <=
br>
&gt; Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN&#39;s outer Ethernet header:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The outer destination MAC address in this fr=
ame may<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be the address of the target VTEP or of an =
intermediate Layer 3<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 router.<br>
&gt; As I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address assigned. T=
he <br>
&gt; address used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet frame and=
 <br>
&gt; may be used by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the outer <=
br>
&gt; Ethernet frame. This MAC address is not, as I understand, associated <=
br>
&gt; with any VNI. Perhaps we can add text to point to Section 5 RFC 7348 a=
nd <br>
&gt; how VTEP MAC address is used in the outer Ethernet header of a VXLAN <=
br>
&gt; packet. If you agree, I&#39;ll polish the new update in a day.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
mh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a> <br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jm=
h@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am having trouble parsing your response.=C2=A0 Ap=
ologies.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packe=
t, and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0determining if<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.=C2=A0 Tha=
t is a quote from 7348<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.1.=C2=A0 I understand it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD o=
ver VxLAN<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specification saying that it modifies this to speci=
fy that the VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0checks for its own MAC address.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of th=
e tenant network.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by=
 the tenant network.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs =
do NOT have their<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0own<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI=
 0 (i.e. a VNI that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goe=
s away.=C2=A0 But again,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is no need for special MAC checking.=C2=A0 Ju=
st declare that the VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0looks for OAM content on VNI 0.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So no, your proposed change does not address my con=
cern, as &quot;VTEP&#39;s MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well=
-defined term.=C2=A0 I am<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for=
 use within<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tenant VNIs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Hi Joel,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that sugge=
sts that any<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP mus=
t be forwarded to a VM<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; associated with the specified VNI. But I&#39;=
ve found the text in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0section<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner fr=
ame to VM<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0conditional to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; the destination MAC address matching to VM&#3=
9;s MAC:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon reception, the remote=
 VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0verifies the validity of t=
he VNI and whether or not there is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a VM on<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that VNI using a MAC addre=
ss that matches the inner<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address.=C2=A0 If so, the =
packet is stripped of its encapsulating<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0headers<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and passed on to the desti=
nation VM.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 cla=
rifies the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN=
:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Once a packet is received,=
 VTEP MUST validate the packet.=C2=A0 If the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination MAC of the inn=
er MAC frame matches the MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VTEP the packet MUST be pr=
ocessed further.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The UDP destination port a=
nd the TTL of the inner IP packet<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0validated to determine if =
the received packet can be processed by<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD.=C2=A0 BFD packet with=
 inner MAC set to VTEP&#39;s MAC address<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST NOT be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarded to VMs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Would this text address your concern?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Greg<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halper=
n<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=
=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelha=
lpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.=
com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The inner packet of a VxLA=
N header with a VNI is a tenant<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tenant identified by the V=
NI.=C2=A0 That is the meaning of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0inner packet.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you declare that the fl=
ag bits change that meaning, then<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that flag<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bit has to adjust the pack=
et processing at the VTEP such taht<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it will<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intercept the packet.=C2=
=A0 As such, it doesn;t need special inner<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dest mac addresses or IP a=
ddresses.=C2=A0 In fact, the inner<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet can just<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be OAM payload.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If that is not what you in=
tend, then how is it that the VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0knows that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the inner addresses are fo=
r it to examine, rather than<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0belonging to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tenant.=C2=A0 As far as I =
know we are not free to take addresses<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0away from<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the tenant.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It may be that I am comple=
tely missing how this is supposed to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work.=C2=A0 If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so, it needs better explan=
ation.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mi=
rsky wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Hi=C2=A0Joel,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; thank you for your r=
eview and the pointed questions.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please find my<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; answers, comments in=
-line and tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Greg<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Thu, May 23, 2019=
 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via Datatracker<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R=
eviewer: Joel Halpern<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R=
eview result: Has Issues<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0H=
ello,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=
 have been selected as the Routing Directorate<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reviewer for this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d=
raft. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R=
outing Directorate seeks to review all routing or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing-related<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d=
rafts as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t=
hey pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sometimes on<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0s=
pecial<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0r=
equest. The purpose of the review is to provide<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assistance<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R=
outing ADs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0F=
or more information about the Routing Directorate,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0please see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"http://tr=
ac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=
lthough these comments are primarily for the use of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Routing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=
Ds, it would<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b=
e helpful if you could consider them along with any other<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Last<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C=
all<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c=
omments that you receive, and strive to resolve them<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d=
iscussion or by<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0u=
pdating the draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0D=
ocument: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R=
eviewer: your-name<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R=
eview Date: date<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=
ETF LC End Date: date-if-known<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=
ntended Status: copy-from-I-D<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S=
ummary: This document does not appear to be ready for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publication as a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P=
roposed Standard RFC.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0M=
ajor issues:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear.=C2=A0 In places,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this looks<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0l=
ike it is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 intended to be used by the underlay service<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provider,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0who will<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0m=
onitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 connectivity between VTEPs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think =
that the DCI provider would not be able to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0instantiate a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; BFD session using VX=
LAN encapsulation and, possibly,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VXLAN<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; part of forwarding o=
perates properly. Such BFD session may<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; path between the two=
 VTEP but, if there exists ECMP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0environment<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; transport, ensuring =
that that BFD session follows the same<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0path<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as VXLAN<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; data may be challeng=
ing.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=
n other places it seems to be aimed at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 monitoring individual VNIs.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The BFD =
session between VTEPs is not actually used to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; particular VNI but M=
AY be used to communicate, as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0concatenated path<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; state signaling, the=
 change of VNI state using the method<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Section 6.8.17 RFC 5=
880<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0T=
his is made worse when the packet format is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 laid out.=C2=A0 The inner packet is an Ethernet Packet<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with an IP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p=
acket (with<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 UDP, with BFD).=C2=A0 This means that it is a tenant<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Could yo=
u please point to the text which suggests<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that the BFD<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; control packet is a =
tenant packet? Meant to be delivered<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to a tenant?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0T=
he IP address is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a tenant IP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The expl=
anation of the format states in regard to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the inner<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP header:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IP header:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B=
ut the diagram shows this as being the IP address of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 VTEP.=C2=A0 Which is not a tenant entity.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0There is further confusion as to whether the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d=
riven by the VNI<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; The use =
of VNI is implementation specific. Section 6<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0states:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A06.=C2=A0=
 Use of the Specific VNI<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=
n most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0given VTEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t=
o monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0regardless of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0n=
umber of VNIs in common.=C2=A0 When the single BFD session<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is used to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0m=
onitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation SHOULD<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c=
hoose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI =3D 0.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0M=
inor Issues:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0N/A<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0N=
its: N/A<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000699b7e058ab2ccd8--


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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <155864919758.8626.11137277913302380197@ietfa.amsl.com> <CA+RyBmXO5tYtrm_79KOKJmTp2mbYwynze20EoJA=2gGnJ5jEsw@mail.gmail.com> <98825f67-6958-8845-d5d5-3e0ac5e996e1@joelhalpern.com> <CA+RyBmXmuL+v55SEgHfx-E=bkpLSZe4ceZG5k6e4R=QSuWQ=Ag@mail.gmail.com> <a8ead230-a09d-8ab9-5263-7414d2bd1acc@joelhalpern.com> <CA+RyBmVAhKGCxBPujtBU54wPCqY39zr_U8TA6rfbzQcaHm9oCw@mail.gmail.com> <4903980b-49e2-1f8c-7575-2af4614e2c6b@joelhalpern.com> <CA+RyBmVhPKjkogj-78xCHqMZG+Gtkd5wEpk2QbLTH+LncTou9g@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
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As far as I can tell, what you describe violates the base VxLAN 
specification by requiring that the VTEP have a MAC address within the 
tenant space.

If there were no other way to make BFD work for VxLAN except biolating 
the spec, then I would epect the document to be very explicit that it 
was taking MAC address away from the tenant space.

Given that there clearly are other ways to achieve the goal that do not 
violate the underlying VxLAN spec, I think the IETF is obliged to use 
something else.

Yours,
Joel

PS: Having said that, I grant that for this purpose I have no more 
standing than any other WG member.

On 6/6/19 10:43 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> in the previous mail you've said:
>  >     As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT have their
>  >     own
>  >     MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
> I agree and note that VTEP's MAC addresses used in the inner Ethernet 
> header don't have to be associated with a VNI. They are the same as used 
> in the outer Ethernet header. And the BFD over VXLAN specification does 
> modify the processing of the inner Ethernet frame comparing to the 
> procedure described in RFC 7348.
> I don't say that the described method of encapsulating BFD over VXLAN is 
> the only one, but it is what has been discussed and supported by BFD WG. 
> Also, AFAIK, at least one implementation already exists.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 5:53 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> 
>     There is a reason the "Outer Ethernet Header" in section 5 of 7348 is
>     labeled as "example".  That outer header will actually vary hop by hop
>     along the IP network between the source VTEP and the desination VTEP.
>     Unless the source and destination VTEP are one IP hope apart, the
>     source
>     VTEP will not even know the Ethernet MAC address of the destination VP.
>     It will simply address the outer IP packet, and let IP rotuing do its
>     job (that is the whole point of VxLAN.)
> 
>     More importantly, it is not associated with any VNI as it is the outer
>     header.  Your usage is as an inner Ethernet Destination address.  The
>     inner Ethernet header is the tenant space.  The VTEPs do not impinge on
>     that space.  Nor use any values from it.
> 
>     Yours,
>     Joel
> 
>     On 6/6/19 8:18 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>      > Hi Joel,
>      > thank you for the clarification of your concern. For the inner
>     Ethernet
>      > header, the destination and source MAC addresses are as described in
>      > Section 5 of RFC 7348 for VXLAN's outer Ethernet header:
>      >       The outer destination MAC address in this frame may
>      >        be the address of the target VTEP or of an intermediate
>     Layer 3
>      >        router.
>      > As I understand this example, a VTEP must have MAC address
>     assigned. The
>      > address used as the source MAC address of the outer Ethernet
>     frame and
>      > may be used by a remote VTEP as destination MAC address in the outer
>      > Ethernet frame. This MAC address is not, as I understand, associated
>      > with any VNI. Perhaps we can add text to point to Section 5 RFC
>     7348 and
>      > how VTEP MAC address is used in the outer Ethernet header of a VXLAN
>      > packet. If you agree, I'll polish the new update in a day.
>      >
>      > Regards,
>      > Greg
>      >
>      > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:20 PM Joel M. Halpern
>     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     I am having trouble parsing your response.  Apologies.
>      >     The first part talks about a VTEP receiving a packet, and
>      >     determining if
>      >     there is a receiver VM for the inner MAC.  That is a quote
>     from 7348
>      >     Section 4.1.  I understand it.
>      >
>      >     You then go on to quote from section 5 of the BFD over VxLAN
>      >     specification saying that it modifies this to specify that
>     the VTEP
>      >     checks for its own MAC address.
>      >     The only problem is that the VTEP is not part of the tenant
>     network.
>      >     Any MAC address you want it to use may be in use by the
>     tenant network.
>      >     As far as I know, in normal VxLAN oepration, VTEPs do NOT
>     have their
>      >     own
>      >     MAC addresses within the scope of the VNI.
>      >
>      >     Now, if you say that BFD will only be used with VNI 0 (i.e. a
>     VNI that
>      >     is not assigned to a tenant), then the conflict goes away. 
>     But again,
>      >     there is no need for special MAC checking.  Just declare that
>     the VTEP
>      >     looks for OAM content on VNI 0.
>      >
>      >     So no, your proposed change does not address my concern, as
>     "VTEP's MAC
>      >     address is not, to the best of my knowledge, a well-defined
>     term.  I am
>      >     happy to be shown where such a thing is defined for use within
>      >     tenant VNIs.
>      >
>      >     Yours,
>      >     Joel
>      >
>      >     On 6/5/19 9:55 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>      >      > Hi Joel,
>      >      > I cannot find the text in RFC 7348 that suggests that any
>      >      > VXLAN-encapsulated frame received by VTEP must be
>     forwarded to a VM
>      >      > associated with the specified VNI. But I've found the text in
>      >     section
>      >      > 4.1 that makes the forwarding of the inner frame to VM
>      >     conditional to
>      >      > the destination MAC address matching to VM's MAC:
>      >      >     Upon reception, the remote VTEP
>      >      >     verifies the validity of the VNI and whether or not
>     there is
>      >     a VM on
>      >      >     that VNI using a MAC address that matches the inner
>      >     destination MAC
>      >      >     address.  If so, the packet is stripped of its
>     encapsulating
>      >     headers
>      >      >     and passed on to the destination VM.
>      >      > BFD over VXLAN specification in section 5 clarifies the
>      >     processing of
>      >      > the received VXLAN packet by the remote VXLAN:
>      >      >     Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the
>     packet.  If the
>      >      >     Destination MAC of the inner MAC frame matches the MAC
>      >     address of the
>      >      >     VTEP the packet MUST be processed further.
>      >      >
>      >      >     The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP
>     packet
>      >     MUST be
>      >      >     validated to determine if the received packet can be
>     processed by
>      >      >     BFD.  BFD packet with inner MAC set to VTEP's MAC address
>      >     MUST NOT be
>      >      >     forwarded to VMs.
>      >      > Would this text address your concern?
>      >      >
>      >      > Regards,
>      >      > Greg
>      >      >
>      >      > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Joel M. Halpern
>      >     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>      >      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>>> wrote:
>      >      >
>      >      >     The inner packet of a VxLAN header with a VNI is a tenant
>      >     packet for
>      >      >     the
>      >      >     tenant identified by the VNI.  That is the meaning of the
>      >     inner packet.
>      >      >
>      >      >     If you declare that the flag bits change that meaning,
>     then
>      >     that flag
>      >      >     bit has to adjust the packet processing at the VTEP
>     such taht
>      >     it will
>      >      >     intercept the packet.  As such, it doesn;t need
>     special inner
>      >     source or
>      >      >     dest mac addresses or IP addresses.  In fact, the inner
>      >     packet can just
>      >      >     be OAM payload.
>      >      >
>      >      >     If that is not what you intend, then how is it that
>     the VTEP
>      >     knows that
>      >      >     the inner addresses are for it to examine, rather than
>      >     belonging to the
>      >      >     tenant.  As far as I know we are not free to take
>     addresses
>      >     away from
>      >      >     the tenant.
>      >      >
>      >      >     It may be that I am completely missing how this is
>     supposed to
>      >      >     work.  If
>      >      >     so, it needs better explanation.
>      >      >
>      >      >     Yours,
>      >      >     Joel
>      >      >
>      >      >     On 6/5/19 5:20 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>      >      >      > Hi Joel,
>      >      >      > thank you for your review and the pointed questions.
>      >     Please find my
>      >      >      > answers, comments in-line and tagged GIM>>.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > Regards,
>      >      >      > Greg
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joel Halpern via
>     Datatracker
>      >      >      > <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>
>      >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>>
>      >      >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>
>      >     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>>>> wrote:
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>      >      >      >     Review result: Has Issues
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Hello,
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     I have been selected as the Routing Directorate
>      >     reviewer for this
>      >      >      >     draft. The
>      >      >      >     Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
>      >      >     routing-related
>      >      >      >     drafts as
>      >      >      >     they pass through IETF last call and IESG
>     review, and
>      >      >     sometimes on
>      >      >      >     special
>      >      >      >     request. The purpose of the review is to provide
>      >     assistance
>      >      >     to the
>      >      >      >     Routing ADs.
>      >      >      >     For more information about the Routing Directorate,
>      >     please see
>      >      >      > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Although these comments are primarily for the
>     use of
>      >     the Routing
>      >      >      >     ADs, it would
>      >      >      >     be helpful if you could consider them along
>     with any other
>      >      >     IETF Last
>      >      >      >     Call
>      >      >      >     comments that you receive, and strive to
>     resolve them
>      >     through
>      >      >      >     discussion or by
>      >      >      >     updating the draft.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Document: ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07
>      >      >      >     Reviewer: your-name
>      >      >      >     Review Date: date
>      >      >      >     IETF LC End Date: date-if-known
>      >      >      >     Intended Status: copy-from-I-D
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Summary: This document does not appear to be
>     ready for
>      >      >     publication as a
>      >      >      >     Proposed Standard RFC.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Major issues:
>      >      >      >          The scoping of the BFD usage is unclear. 
>     In places,
>      >      >     this looks
>      >      >      >     like it is
>      >      >      >          intended to be used by the underlay service
>      >     provider,
>      >      >     who will
>      >      >      >     monitor the
>      >      >      >          connectivity between VTEPs.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > GIM>> I think that the DCI provider would not be
>     able to
>      >      >     instantiate a
>      >      >      > BFD session using VXLAN encapsulation and, possibly,
>      >     monitor that
>      >      >     VXLAN
>      >      >      > part of forwarding operates properly. Such BFD
>     session may
>      >      >     monitor the
>      >      >      > path between the two VTEP but, if there exists ECMP
>      >     environment
>      >      >     in the
>      >      >      > transport, ensuring that that BFD session follows
>     the same
>      >     path
>      >      >     as VXLAN
>      >      >      > data may be challenging.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     In other places it seems to be aimed at
>      >      >      >          monitoring individual VNIs.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > GIM>> The BFD session between VTEPs is not actually
>     used to
>      >      >     monitor the
>      >      >      > particular VNI but MAY be used to communicate, as
>      >     concatenated path
>      >      >      > state signaling, the change of VNI state using the
>     method
>      >      >     described in
>      >      >      > Section 6.8.17 RFC 5880
>      >      >      > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.8.17>.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     This is made worse when the packet format is
>      >      >      >          laid out.  The inner packet is an Ethernet
>     Packet
>      >     with an IP
>      >      >      >     packet (with
>      >      >      >          UDP, with BFD).  This means that it is a
>     tenant
>      >     packet.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > GIM>> Could you please point to the text which suggests
>      >     that the BFD
>      >      >      > control packet is a tenant packet? Meant to be
>     delivered
>      >     to a tenant?
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     The IP address is
>      >      >      >          a tenant IP.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > GIM>> The explanation of the format states in regard to
>      >     the inner
>      >      >     IP header:
>      >      >      >         IP header:
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >           Source IP: IP address of the originating
>     VTEP.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >           Destination IP: IP address of the
>     terminating VTEP.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     But the diagram shows this as being the IP
>     address of the
>      >      >      >          VTEP.  Which is not a tenant entity.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >         There is further confusion as to whether the
>      >     processing is
>      >      >      >     driven by the VNI
>      >      >      >         the packet arrived with, or the VNI is ignored.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      > GIM>> The use of VNI is implementation specific.
>     Section 6
>      >     states:
>      >      >      >   6.  Use of the Specific VNI
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     In most cases, a single BFD session is
>     sufficient for the
>      >      >     given VTEP
>      >      >      >     to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP,
>      >     regardless of the
>      >      >      >     number of VNIs in common.  When the single BFD
>     session
>      >     is used to
>      >      >      >     monitor the reachability of the remote VTEP, an
>      >      >     implementation SHOULD
>      >      >      >     choose any of the VNIs but MAY choose VNI = 0.
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Minor Issues:
>      >      >      >         N/A
>      >      >      >
>      >      >      >     Nits: N/A
>      >      >      >
>      >      >
>      >
> 


From nobody Mon Jun 10 12:17:52 2019
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Reviewer: Geoff Huston
Review result: Ready

Summary:
the document is ready to publish

Comments:
This document is clearly written and easy to understand.This is a further
update to an existing RFC the style and content of the updates is consistent
with the previous documents that describe these processes

Major Issues:
No major issues found.

Minor Issues:
none found

Nits:
none found


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Reviewer: Christian Hopps
Review result: Ready

Hello,

I have been selected to do a routing directorate “early” review of this draft.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-capabilities-registry-change/

The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, perform
an “early” review of a draft before it is submitted for publication to the
IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft’s lifetime
as a working group document. The purpose of the early review depends on the
stage that the document has reached.

As this document is in working group last call, my focus for the review was to
determine whether the document is ready to be published. Please consider my
comments along with the other working group last call comments.

For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Document: draft-ietf-idr-capabilities-registry-change-05.txt
Reviewer: Christian Hopps
Review Date: June 11, 2019
Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary:

No issues found. This documents is ready to proceed to the IESG.

Comments:

The draft is very readable, and ready for publication.

For my own curiosity: while perusing the per revision changes, I saw "0 -
Reserved" was added then removed from the registration procedures table, but
"255 - Reserved" was left in. I figure "0" was removed b/c it's not a range and
it is reserved in the actual capability registry; however, why wouldn't this
logic then also apply to "255"?

Thanks,
Chris.



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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/Z0r3LJUP1VGgjw0sAUA6fPRDJME>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-09
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Hi there

I have reviewed this draft for the routing directorate as part of preparing=
 it for IETF last call and IESG review.

I was familiar with this document from the time that I chaired the PCE work=
ing group, but this was the first time I read it all the way through and pa=
id attention to all details.  I found it easy to read and understand.  I th=
ink it is basically ready to go with a few small clarifications and nits, b=
elow.

Cheers
Jon

Document: draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-09
Reviewer: Jon Hardwick
Review Date: 18 June 2019
IETF LC End Date: LC not started yet
Intended Status: Standards Track

Comments
Section 3 is somewhat redundant IMO.
4.1 you should ideally provide a reference for how to do MBB signalling.
4.3 "Similarly, if a PCC gets overwhelmed due to signaling churn, it can no=
tify the PCE to temporarily suspend new LSP setup requests."  I think this =
is covered by 5.7 as well as the PCE case, but you only refer to 5.7 for th=
e latter. Please point to 5.7 for both cases.
5.1 Not a big deal, but I wonder if there is any practical reason to differ=
entiate the final two bullets.
5.6 Why are AUTO-BANDWIDTH-ATTRIBUTES required (MUST) in the LSPA object of=
 a PCRpt?  If the LSP is PCE-initiated, then the PCE already knows what att=
ributes were specified.  If the LSP is PCC-Initiated, then the attributes a=
re the PCC's business - the PCE can't change them (per 5.5) and I don't thi=
nk the PCE even needs to know what they are.
7.2 Misuses RFC 2119 language to request an action from a working group.  I=
n other documents (when there is not already a draft in progress to do it) =
we have reworded this as "the YANG / MIB could be updated" etc.

Nits
5: "Extensions to the PCEP" would sound better as "PCEP Extensions"
7: In RFC 6123 it says "The Manageability Considerations section SHOULD be =
placed immediately before the Security Considerations section in any Intern=
et-Draft." - but here, it comes after.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi there<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have reviewed this draft for =
the routing directorate as part of preparing it for IETF last call and IESG=
 review.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I was familiar with this docume=
nt from the time that I chaired the PCE working group, but this was the fir=
st time I read it all the way through and paid attention to all details.&nb=
sp; I found it easy to read and understand.&nbsp;
 I think it is basically ready to go with a few small clarifications and ni=
ts, below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Document: draft-ietf-pce-statef=
ul-pce-auto-bandwidth-09<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Reviewer: Jon Hardwick<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Review Date: 18 June 2019<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">IETF LC End Date: LC not starte=
d yet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Intended Status: Standards Trac=
k<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Section 3 is somewhat redundant=
 IMO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">4.1 you should ideally provide =
a reference for how to do MBB signalling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">4.3 &#8220;Similarly, if a PCC =
gets overwhelmed due to signaling churn, it can notify the PCE to temporari=
ly suspend new LSP setup requests.&#8221; &nbsp;I think this is covered by =
5.7 as well as the PCE case, but you only refer to 5.7
 for the latter. Please point to 5.7 for both cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">5.1 Not a big deal, but I wonde=
r if there is any practical reason to differentiate the final two bullets.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">5.6 Why are AUTO-BANDWIDTH-ATTR=
IBUTES required (MUST) in the LSPA object of a PCRpt?&nbsp; If the LSP is P=
CE-initiated, then the PCE already knows what attributes were specified.&nb=
sp; If the LSP is PCC-Initiated, then the attributes
 are the PCC&#8217;s business &#8211; the PCE can&#8217;t change them (per =
5.5) and I don&#8217;t think the PCE even needs to know what they are.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">7.2 Misuses RFC 2119 language t=
o request an action from a working group.&nbsp; In other documents (when th=
ere is not already a draft in progress to do it) we have reworded this as &=
#8220;the YANG / MIB could be updated&#8221; etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Nits<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">5: &#8220;Extensions to the PCE=
P&#8221; would sound better as &#8220;PCEP Extensions&#8221;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">7: In RFC 6123 it says &#8220;T=
he Manageability Considerations section SHOULD be placed immediately before=
 the Security Considerations section in any Internet-Draft.&#8221; &#8211; =
but here, it comes after.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr-05
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From nobody Thu Jun 20 07:08:01 2019
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To: Chandrasekar Ramachandran <csekar@juniper.net>
CC: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr.all@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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From: <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr-05
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Hi Chandra,

Thanks for the update. I've just taken a look at the diff: it looks
fine, with an improved MUST/SHOULD ratio. I haven't checked all nits,
but it seems you missed a key one in section 4.6.2.2., leaving a Path
message when talking about upstream (see below).

Cheers,

Julien


On 20/06/2019 15:42, Chandrasekar Ramachandran wrote:
> [...]
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: julien.meuric@orange.com <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:03 PM
>>
>> - s/in TIME_VALUES object carried in PATH to default value/in the
>> TIME_VALUES object carried in the *Resv* message to a default value/


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From: Chandrasekar Ramachandran <csekar@juniper.net>
To: "julien.meuric@orange.com" <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-grow-bmp-adj-rib-out@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-grow-bmp-adj-rib-out@ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org> (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [GROW] Routing Directorate Last Call Review for draft-ietf-grow-bmp-adj-rib-out-05.txt
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--_000_B3D139C9F0B2401EBD074475E7DB1EE0ciscocom_--


From nobody Fri Jun 21 01:55:23 2019
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To: Chandrasekar Ramachandran <csekar@juniper.net>
CC: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr.all@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
References: <25527_1555000351_5CAF6C1F_25527_187_1_c344649c-bea5-5d0e-3b76-2bd28be6d226@orange.com> <BYAPR05MB547700FDE3B96DEF070438E6D9E40@BYAPR05MB5477.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <2098_1561039664_5D0B9330_2098_160_1_84b25e23-a628-854e-fb5d-f9ffdcdb170e@orange.com> <BYAPR05MB54778F145B53DCC233032F48D9E40@BYAPR05MB5477.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
From: <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 10:55:16 +0200
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr-05
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Hi Chandra,

Your response seems to summarize section 4.6.2.1. about the "downstream
direction", which is fine. My comment below is about section 4.6.2.2.
which describes the "upstream direction": how could an RSVP-TE message
sent to a Phop be a Path instead of a Resv? Am I missing something?

Cheers,

Julien


On 20/06/2019 17:08, Chandrasekar Ramachandran wrote:
> Hi Julien,
> Please refer inline.
>
>
> Juniper Internal
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: julien.meuric@orange.com <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 7:38 PM
>>
>> Hi Chandra,
>>
>> Thanks for the update. I've just taken a look at the diff: it looks fine, with an
>> improved MUST/SHOULD ratio. I haven't checked all nits, but it seems you
>> missed a key one in section 4.6.2.2., leaving a Path message when talking
>> about upstream (see below).
> [Chandra] The text "carried in the Path to" is intended because the expected outcome is not to apply long refresh in the two hop neighborhood. That is, if the Phop node (say node X) does not support the extensions, then two nodes downstream of node X must use backward compatible refresh interval. This will enable the NP-MP of node X to time out the path state normally when the refresh timeout expires.
>
> Thanks,
> Chandra.
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> On 20/06/2019 15:42, Chandrasekar Ramachandran wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: julien.meuric@orange.com <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:03 PM
>>>>
>>>> - s/in TIME_VALUES object carried in PATH to default value/in the
>>>> TIME_VALUES object carried in the *Resv* message to a default value/
>>
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_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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From: Chandrasekar Ramachandran <csekar@juniper.net>
To: "julien.meuric@orange.com" <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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From: <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr-05
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Hi Chandra,

OK, after refreshing the context, I think I get it and why I got confused.

What puzzles me then is the 1st sentence of section 4.6.2.2, and
especially the "upstream direction" phrase, which happens to be wrong
with respect to the section title and content. I suggest two
clarification tweaks:
- drop the confusing phrase (e.g., just say "The procedures are as
follows."), as the section title already does the right job;
- add a parenthesis at the end of the 2nd bullet, e.g. "(Thus, the Nhop
is informed and can use compatible values when sending a Resv.)"

Another typo spotted from the diff: in the terminology section,
Next-Next-hop points to the PPhop acronym.

Thanks for your time,

Julien


On 21/06/2019 11:14, Chandrasekar Ramachandran wrote:
> Hi Julien,
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: julien.meuric@orange.com <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 2:25 PM
>>
>> Hi Chandra,
>>
>> Your response seems to summarize section 4.6.2.1. about the "downstream
>> direction", which is fine. My comment below is about section 4.6.2.2.
>> which describes the "upstream direction": how could an RSVP-TE message
>> sent to a Phop be a Path instead of a Resv? Am I missing something?
> [Chandra] Let me illustrate with an example LSP as shown below.
>
>     A  -> B -> C -> D
>
> If ingress A does not support the extensions defined in the draft and requests node protection for the LSP, then long refresh will not be enforced on the LSP segment A -> B -> C. In other words, Path messages from A to B, Path messages from B to C, Resv messages from B to A, and Resv messages from C to B, will not use long refresh interval. This behavior ensures that neither primary Path from B to C nor backup LSP Path from A to C during local repair would use long refresh. Hence, node C may opt to time out LSP state normally in case of B-C link failure without requiring any explicit state cleanup messages from node A or node B.
>
> In general, if there is a non-compliant node along the path of an LSP and if the ingress node has requested node protection, then backward compatibility procedures will come into force on two hops upstream & two hops downstream of that non-compliant node.
>
> Thanks,
> Chandra.
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> On 20/06/2019 17:08, Chandrasekar Ramachandran wrote:
>>> Hi Julien,
>>> Please refer inline.
>>>
>>>
>>> Juniper Internal
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: julien.meuric@orange.com <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 7:38 PM
>>>>
>>>> Hi Chandra,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the update. I've just taken a look at the diff: it looks
>>>> fine, with an improved MUST/SHOULD ratio. I haven't checked all nits,
>>>> but it seems you missed a key one in section 4.6.2.2., leaving a Path
>>>> message when talking about upstream (see below).
>>> [Chandra] The text "carried in the Path to" is intended because the
>> expected outcome is not to apply long refresh in the two hop
>> neighborhood. That is, if the Phop node (say node X) does not support the
>> extensions, then two nodes downstream of node X must use backward
>> compatible refresh interval. This will enable the NP-MP of node X to time
>> out the path state normally when the refresh timeout expires.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chandra.
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Julien
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 20/06/2019 15:42, Chandrasekar Ramachandran wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: julien.meuric@orange.com <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:03 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - s/in TIME_VALUES object carried in PATH to default value/in the
>>>>>> TIME_VALUES object carried in the *Resv* message to a default
>>>>>> value/
>>>>
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_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

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From: Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:29:53 -0400
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Hi Jon,

Thank you for the review comments. Please see inline with <RG>...

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 5:53 AM Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick=3D
40metaswitch.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hi there
>
>
>
> I have reviewed this draft for the routing directorate as part of
> preparing it for IETF last call and IESG review.
>
>
>
> I was familiar with this document from the time that I chaired the PCE
> working group, but this was the first time I read it all the way through
> and paid attention to all details.  I found it easy to read and
> understand.  I think it is basically ready to go with a few small
> clarifications and nits, below.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> Document: draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-09
>
> Reviewer: Jon Hardwick
>
> Review Date: 18 June 2019
>
> IETF LC End Date: LC not started yet
>
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>
>
>
> Comments
>
> Section 3 is somewhat redundant IMO.
>


<RG> We can keep it given the Figure showing the extensions unless there is
a preference to remove it.

4.1 you should ideally provide a reference for how to do MBB signalling.
>

<RG> Added [RFC3209].

4.3 =E2=80=9CSimilarly, if a PCC gets overwhelmed due to signaling churn, i=
t can
> notify the PCE to temporarily suspend new LSP setup requests.=E2=80=9D  I=
 think
> this is covered by 5.7 as well as the PCE case, but you only refer to 5.7
> for the latter. Please point to 5.7 for both cases.
>

<RG> Added.

5.1 Not a big deal, but I wonder if there is any practical reason to
> differentiate the final two bullets.
>


<RG> There is a precedence for the second bullet error message in [RFC
8231] (e.g. error-value 2). The first bullet error message just comes from
the existing behaviour without this extension.


5.6 Why are AUTO-BANDWIDTH-ATTRIBUTES required (MUST) in the LSPA object of
> a PCRpt?  If the LSP is PCE-initiated, then the PCE already knows what
> attributes were specified.  If the LSP is PCC-Initiated, then the
> attributes are the PCC=E2=80=99s business =E2=80=93 the PCE can=E2=80=99t=
 change them (per 5.5) and
> I don=E2=80=99t think the PCE even needs to know what they are.
>

<RG> Agree. Removed the sentence.


> 7.2 Misuses RFC 2119 language to request an action from a working group.
> In other documents (when there is not already a draft in progress to do i=
t)
> we have reworded this as =E2=80=9Cthe YANG / MIB could be updated=E2=80=
=9D etc.
>

<RG> Updated the text.


>
> Nits
>
> 5: =E2=80=9CExtensions to the PCEP=E2=80=9D would sound better as =E2=80=
=9CPCEP Extensions=E2=80=9D
>

<RG> Fixed.

7: In RFC 6123 it says =E2=80=9CThe Manageability Considerations section SH=
OULD be
> placed immediately before the Security Considerations section in any
> Internet-Draft.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 but here, it comes after.
>

<RG> Updated.

Thanks,
Rakesh



_______________________________________________
> Pce mailing list
> Pce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><font size=3D"2">Hi Jon,</font></div><div><font size=
=3D"2"><br></font></div><div><font size=3D"2">Thank you for the review comm=
ents. Please see inline with &lt;RG&gt;..</font><font size=3D"2">.<br></fon=
t></div><font size=3D"2"><br></font><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><font size=3D"2">On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 5:53 AM =
Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40metaswitch.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org">40metaswitch.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></font>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi there</span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have reviewe=
d this draft for the routing directorate as part of preparing it for IETF l=
ast call and IESG review.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I was familiar=
 with this document from the time that I chaired the PCE working group, but=
 this was the first time I read it all the way through and paid attention t=
o all details.=C2=A0 I found it easy to read and understand.=C2=A0
 I think it is basically ready to go with a few small clarifications and ni=
ts, below.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Cheers</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon</span></fo=
nt></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Document: draf=
t-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-09</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Reviewer: Jon =
Hardwick</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Review Date: 1=
8 June 2019</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">IETF LC End Da=
te: LC not started yet</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Intended Statu=
s: Standards Track</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Comments</span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Section 3 is s=
omewhat redundant IMO.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><font=
 size=3D"2">=C2=A0


















</font><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; We can keep it =
given the Figure showing the
extensions unless there is a preference to remove it.<span></span></font></=
p>





</div><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-143557043943=
6514305WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"=
EN-GB"></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">4.1 you should=
 ideally provide a reference for how to do MBB signalling.</span></font></p=
></div></div></blockquote><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><div><font=
 size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; Added [RFC3209].</font></div><div> <font size=3D"2">=
<br></font></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305WordSection1"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">4.3 =E2=80=9CS=
imilarly, if a PCC gets overwhelmed due to signaling churn, it can notify t=
he PCE to temporarily suspend new LSP setup requests.=E2=80=9D =C2=A0I thin=
k this is covered by 5.7 as well as the PCE case, but you only refer to 5.7
 for the latter. Please point to 5.7 for both cases.</span></font></p></div=
></div></blockquote><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><div><font size=
=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; Added.</font></div><div> <font size=3D"2"><br></font></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><di=
v class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">5.1 Not a big =
deal, but I wonder if there is any practical reason to differentiate the fi=
nal two bullets.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><font size=
=3D"2">=C2=A0


















</font><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; There is a prec=
edence for the second bullet error
message in [RFC 8231] (e.g. error-value 2). The first bullet error message =
just
comes from the existing behaviour without this extension.<span></span></fon=
t></p>





</div><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><div><font size=3D"2"><br></fo=
nt></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-=
US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305WordSection1"><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">5.6 Why are AU=
TO-BANDWIDTH-ATTRIBUTES required (MUST) in the LSPA object of a PCRpt?=C2=
=A0 If the LSP is PCE-initiated, then the PCE already knows what attributes=
 were specified.=C2=A0 If the LSP is PCC-Initiated, then the attributes
 are the PCC=E2=80=99s business =E2=80=93 the PCE can=E2=80=99t change them=
 (per 5.5) and I don=E2=80=99t think the PCE even needs to know what they a=
re.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><font size=3D"2"><br></f=
ont></div><div>


















<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; Agree. Removed the sen=
tence.<span></span></font></p>





</div><div><font size=3D"2">=C2=A0</font></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439=
436514305WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB"></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">7.2 Misuses RF=
C 2119 language to request an action from a working group.=C2=A0 In other d=
ocuments (when there is not already a draft in progress to do it) we have r=
eworded this as =E2=80=9Cthe YANG / MIB could be updated=E2=80=9D etc.</spa=
n></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></di=
v><div><font size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; Updated the text.</font></div><div> <fon=
t size=3D"2"><br></font></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305WordSect=
ion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"></span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Nits</span></f=
ont></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">5: =E2=80=9CEx=
tensions to the PCEP=E2=80=9D would sound better as =E2=80=9CPCEP Extension=
s=E2=80=9D</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><font size=3D"2">=
<br></font></div><div><font size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; Fixed.</font></div><div> =
<font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305Wo=
rdSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"></=
span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">7: In RFC 6123=
 it says =E2=80=9CThe Manageability Considerations section SHOULD be placed=
 immediately before the Security Considerations section in any Internet-Dra=
ft.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 but here, it comes after.</span></font></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><div><font =
size=3D"2">&lt;RG&gt; Updated.<br></font></div><div><font size=3D"2">=C2=A0=
</font></div><div><font size=3D"2">Thanks,</font></div><div><font size=3D"2=
">Rakesh</font></div><div><font size=3D"2"><br></font></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1435570439436514305WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
Pce mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Pce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes
on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to
the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last
Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
Reviewer: Andy Malis
Review Date: 21 June 2019
IETF LC End Date: 26 June 2019
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:

I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the
Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.

Overall comments:

For this review, I was asked to "Focus on the impact/implications of the
architecture on routing/forwarding." I will leave minor details such as
editorial nits to others.

This is a very long and detailed document, and I have no prior experience
with IEEE 802.15.4, 6lowpan, 6tisch, RPL, and related technologies. To
prepare for this review I did some basic background reading, such an online
introduction to IEEE 802.15.4 and RFC 7554. So in this review, I really
don't feel competent to comments on some of the more technical aspects
related to those technologies. However, I do feel competent to comment from
the viewpoint of a naive reader with a general background in routing. As a
naive reader, I appreciated the introduction to the technology in sections
1-3.

The primary editor of this draft is also active in the DetNet working
group, and leverages the work being done there to support the work in this
draft. The draft does reference some DetNet technologies that have not yet
been completely specified to the point where they can be implemented such
as PREOF (Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions), although
such specifications are an expected deliverable in the DetNet WG. So a full
implementation of this architecture may have to wait for the completion of
the related DetNet specification work.

With respect to routing and forwarding, this draft builds upon the work
already done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for routing and 6lowpan header
compression. It adds the necessary scheduling and time synchronization
functions needed to support the TSCH aspects of IEEE 802.15.4, which is the
point of this work. But other than these new aspects, routing and
forwarding should continue to work to the extent that they work in the
6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 forwarding is the use
of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations in section 4.7.2. See my
major issues below for more on this concern.

Major issues:

I'm concerned with the number of references to individual drafts (even if
informational) in a major architecture specification, since the rest of the
work on this technology, including solution documents, will rest on the
correctness and completeness of the architecture. If these references are
essential, then I would recommend that publication of the architecture be
delayed until it's more clear whether these individual drafts will be
adopted by a WG, and any abandoned individual drafts be removed. Otherwise,
how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, abandoned work?
Speaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts,
draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn't been updated in
over four years, and should either be removed or adopted by the 6tisch WG.
Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination, hasn't been updated in
over a year. Is it still alive? At least the remaining individual drafts
have fairly recent updates.

A related concern is that this draft specifically depends on work to be
done elsewhere in and outside of the IETF that is currently unchartered
(see section A.2). Many of the individual drafts discussed in the previous
paragraph are referenced in this section. To the extent that 6tisch depends
on this work for its own eventual success, the WG may wish to evaluate if
there are alternative ways to have the necessary work completed, such as
using an alternative solution or rechartering the WG to include necessary
work that looks unlikely to happen elsewhere.

Minor issue:

To the extent that this architecture makes use of centralized control
mechanisms such as PCE, the security considerations should mention this
dependency and perhaps have a short discussion of effects on the network if
connectivity between the centralized controller and the network nodes is
lost, either due to an outage or a deliberate attack, and how such effects
could be mitigated.

Thanks,
Andy

--0000000000001ba806058bdc243c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,<br><br>I have been selected as the Routing Dir=
ectorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review a=
ll routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call an=
d IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review =
is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the=
 Routing Directorate, please see <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area=
/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir=
</a><br><br>Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routin=
g ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other =
IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them throug=
h discussion or by updating the draft.<br><br>Document: draft-ietf-6tisch-a=
rchitecture-21.txt<br>Reviewer: Andy Malis<br>Review Date: 21 June 2019<br>=
IETF LC End Date: 26 June 2019<br>Intended Status: Informational<br><br>Sum=
mary:<br><br>I have significant concerns about this document and recommend =
that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.<br><br>=
Overall comments:<br><br>For this review, I was asked to &quot;Focus on the=
 impact/implications of the architecture on routing/forwarding.&quot; I wil=
l leave minor details such as editorial nits to others.<br><br>This is a ve=
ry long and detailed document, and I have no prior experience with IEEE 802=
.15.4, 6lowpan, 6tisch, RPL, and related technologies. To prepare for this =
review I did some basic background reading, such an online introduction to =
IEEE 802.15.4 and RFC 7554. So in this review, I really don&#39;t feel comp=
etent to comments on some of the more technical aspects related to those te=
chnologies. However, I do feel competent to comment from the viewpoint of a=
 naive reader with a general background in routing. As a naive reader, I ap=
preciated the introduction to the technology in sections 1-3.<br><br>The pr=
imary editor of this draft is also active in the DetNet working group, and =
leverages the work being done there to support the work in this draft. The =
draft does reference some DetNet technologies that have not yet been comple=
tely specified to the point where they can be implemented such as PREOF (Pa=
cket Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions), although such specif=
ications are an expected deliverable in the DetNet WG. So a full implementa=
tion of this architecture may have to wait for the completion of the relate=
d DetNet specification work.<br><br>With respect to routing and forwarding,=
 this draft builds upon the work already done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RP=
L for routing and 6lowpan header compression. It adds the necessary schedul=
ing and time synchronization functions needed to support the TSCH aspects o=
f IEEE 802.15.4, which is the point of this work. But other than these new =
aspects, routing and forwarding should continue to work to the extent that =
they work in the 6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 forw=
arding is the use of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations in sec=
tion 4.7.2. See my major issues below for more on this concern.<br><br>Majo=
r issues:<br><br>I&#39;m concerned with the number of references to individ=
ual drafts (even if informational) in a major architecture specification, s=
ince the rest of the work on this technology, including solution documents,=
 will rest on the correctness and completeness of the architecture. If thes=
e references are essential, then I would recommend that publication of the =
architecture be delayed until it&#39;s more clear whether these individual =
drafts will be adopted by a WG, and any abandoned individual drafts be remo=
ved. Otherwise, how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, aba=
ndoned work? Speaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts,=
 draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn&#39;t been updated i=
n over four years, and should either be removed or adopted by the 6tisch WG=
. Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination, hasn&#39;t been upda=
ted in over a year. Is it still alive? At least the remaining individual dr=
afts have fairly recent updates.<br><br>A related concern is that this draf=
t specifically depends on work to be done elsewhere in and outside of the I=
ETF that is currently unchartered (see section A.2). Many of the individual=
 drafts discussed in the previous paragraph are referenced in this section.=
 To the extent that 6tisch depends on this work for its own eventual succes=
s, the WG may wish to evaluate if there are alternative ways to have the ne=
cessary work completed, such as using an alternative solution or recharteri=
ng the WG to include necessary work that looks unlikely to happen elsewhere=
.<br><br>Minor issue:<br><br>To the extent that this architecture makes use=
 of centralized control mechanisms such as PCE, the security considerations=
 should mention this dependency and perhaps have a short discussion of effe=
cts on the network if connectivity between the centralized controller and t=
he network nodes is lost, either due to an outage or a deliberate attack, a=
nd how such effects could be mitigated.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Andy<br></div><di=
v><br></div></div>

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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
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One quick follow-up to my review - I just noticed that while the draft's
intended status (in the draft) is Informational, the Datatracker lists it
as Proposed Standard. The Datatracker should be updated.

Thanks,
Andy

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:28 PM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
> drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes
> on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to
> the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
> see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last
> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
> discussion or by updating the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
> Reviewer: Andy Malis
> Review Date: 21 June 2019
> IETF LC End Date: 26 June 2019
> Intended Status: Informational
>
> Summary:
>
> I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the
> Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.
>
> Overall comments:
>
> For this review, I was asked to "Focus on the impact/implications of the
> architecture on routing/forwarding." I will leave minor details such as
> editorial nits to others.
>
> This is a very long and detailed document, and I have no prior experience
> with IEEE 802.15.4, 6lowpan, 6tisch, RPL, and related technologies. To
> prepare for this review I did some basic background reading, such an online
> introduction to IEEE 802.15.4 and RFC 7554. So in this review, I really
> don't feel competent to comments on some of the more technical aspects
> related to those technologies. However, I do feel competent to comment from
> the viewpoint of a naive reader with a general background in routing. As a
> naive reader, I appreciated the introduction to the technology in sections
> 1-3.
>
> The primary editor of this draft is also active in the DetNet working
> group, and leverages the work being done there to support the work in this
> draft. The draft does reference some DetNet technologies that have not yet
> been completely specified to the point where they can be implemented such
> as PREOF (Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions), although
> such specifications are an expected deliverable in the DetNet WG. So a full
> implementation of this architecture may have to wait for the completion of
> the related DetNet specification work.
>
> With respect to routing and forwarding, this draft builds upon the work
> already done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for routing and 6lowpan header
> compression. It adds the necessary scheduling and time synchronization
> functions needed to support the TSCH aspects of IEEE 802.15.4, which is the
> point of this work. But other than these new aspects, routing and
> forwarding should continue to work to the extent that they work in the
> 6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 forwarding is the use
> of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations in section 4.7.2. See my
> major issues below for more on this concern.
>
> Major issues:
>
> I'm concerned with the number of references to individual drafts (even if
> informational) in a major architecture specification, since the rest of the
> work on this technology, including solution documents, will rest on the
> correctness and completeness of the architecture. If these references are
> essential, then I would recommend that publication of the architecture be
> delayed until it's more clear whether these individual drafts will be
> adopted by a WG, and any abandoned individual drafts be removed. Otherwise,
> how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, abandoned work?
> Speaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts,
> draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn't been updated in
> over four years, and should either be removed or adopted by the 6tisch WG.
> Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination, hasn't been updated in
> over a year. Is it still alive? At least the remaining individual drafts
> have fairly recent updates.
>
> A related concern is that this draft specifically depends on work to be
> done elsewhere in and outside of the IETF that is currently unchartered
> (see section A.2). Many of the individual drafts discussed in the previous
> paragraph are referenced in this section. To the extent that 6tisch depends
> on this work for its own eventual success, the WG may wish to evaluate if
> there are alternative ways to have the necessary work completed, such as
> using an alternative solution or rechartering the WG to include necessary
> work that looks unlikely to happen elsewhere.
>
> Minor issue:
>
> To the extent that this architecture makes use of centralized control
> mechanisms such as PCE, the security considerations should mention this
> dependency and perhaps have a short discussion of effects on the network if
> connectivity between the centralized controller and the network nodes is
> lost, either due to an outage or a deliberate attack, and how such effects
> could be mitigated.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">One quick follow-up to my review - I just noticed that whi=
le the draft&#39;s intended status (in the draft) is Informational, the Dat=
atracker=C2=A0lists it as Proposed Standard. The Datatracker should be upda=
ted.<br><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andy</div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 21, 201=
9 at 5:28 PM Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com">agmal=
is@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,<br><br>I have been selected as the=
 Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks=
 to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF =
last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of=
 the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more informati=
on about the Routing Directorate, please see <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.i=
etf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf=
.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br><br>Although these comments are prima=
rily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consi=
der them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and=
 strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft.<br><br=
>Document: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt<br>Reviewer: Andy Malis<br=
>Review Date: 21 June 2019<br>IETF LC End Date: 26 June 2019<br>Intended St=
atus: Informational<br><br>Summary:<br><br>I have significant concerns abou=
t this document and recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues fur=
ther with the authors.<br><br>Overall comments:<br><br>For this review, I w=
as asked to &quot;Focus on the impact/implications of the architecture on r=
outing/forwarding.&quot; I will leave minor details such as editorial nits =
to others.<br><br>This is a very long and detailed document, and I have no =
prior experience with IEEE 802.15.4, 6lowpan, 6tisch, RPL, and related tech=
nologies. To prepare for this review I did some basic background reading, s=
uch an online introduction to IEEE 802.15.4 and RFC 7554. So in this review=
, I really don&#39;t feel competent to comments on some of the more technic=
al aspects related to those technologies. However, I do feel competent to c=
omment from the viewpoint of a naive reader with a general background in ro=
uting. As a naive reader, I appreciated the introduction to the technology =
in sections 1-3.<br><br>The primary editor of this draft is also active in =
the DetNet working group, and leverages the work being done there to suppor=
t the work in this draft. The draft does reference some DetNet technologies=
 that have not yet been completely specified to the point where they can be=
 implemented such as PREOF (Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Fu=
nctions), although such specifications are an expected deliverable in the D=
etNet WG. So a full implementation of this architecture may have to wait fo=
r the completion of the related DetNet specification work.<br><br>With resp=
ect to routing and forwarding, this draft builds upon the work already done=
 in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for routing and 6lowpan header compression.=
 It adds the necessary scheduling and time synchronization functions needed=
 to support the TSCH aspects of IEEE 802.15.4, which is the point of this w=
ork. But other than these new aspects, routing and forwarding should contin=
ue to work to the extent that they work in the 6lowpan specifications. My o=
ne concern regarding IPv6 forwarding is the use of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-d=
iffserv-recommendations in section 4.7.2. See my major issues below for mor=
e on this concern.<br><br>Major issues:<br><br>I&#39;m concerned with the n=
umber of references to individual drafts (even if informational) in a major=
 architecture specification, since the rest of the work on this technology,=
 including solution documents, will rest on the correctness and completenes=
s of the architecture. If these references are essential, then I would reco=
mmend that publication of the architecture be delayed until it&#39;s more c=
lear whether these individual drafts will be adopted by a WG, and any aband=
oned individual drafts be removed. Otherwise, how can a published architect=
ure depend on unpublished, abandoned work? Speaking of which, I note that o=
ne of those referenced drafts, draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendati=
ons, hasn&#39;t been updated in over four years, and should either be remov=
ed or adopted by the 6tisch WG. Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-eli=
mination, hasn&#39;t been updated in over a year. Is it still alive? At lea=
st the remaining individual drafts have fairly recent updates.<br><br>A rel=
ated concern is that this draft specifically depends on work to be done els=
ewhere in and outside of the IETF that is currently unchartered (see sectio=
n A.2). Many of the individual drafts discussed in the previous paragraph a=
re referenced in this section. To the extent that 6tisch depends on this wo=
rk for its own eventual success, the WG may wish to evaluate if there are a=
lternative ways to have the necessary work completed, such as using an alte=
rnative solution or rechartering the WG to include necessary work that look=
s unlikely to happen elsewhere.<br><br>Minor issue:<br><br>To the extent th=
at this architecture makes use of centralized control mechanisms such as PC=
E, the security considerations should mention this dependency and perhaps h=
ave a short discussion of effects on the network if connectivity between th=
e centralized controller and the network nodes is lost, either due to an ou=
tage or a deliberate attack, and how such effects could be mitigated.<br><b=
r>Thanks,<br>Andy<br></div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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To: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
CC: "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "6tisch-chairs@ietf.org" <6tisch-chairs@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture.all@ietf.org>, "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 12:56:43 -0400
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Pascal,

I did review 21.

Cheers,
Andy


On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 12:50 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <
pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hello Andrew
>
> Many thanks for the huge investment of time you spent on our technology. =
I
> hope you found the context of interest.
>
> Gory provided a similar feedback and I published 21 to address the
> specific point of references. Some were removed, some are now WG docs tha=
t
> were not, and the language was clarified to indicate some references are
> given as examples of how a particular feature could be achieved.
>
> Would you please pick 21 and reassess your main comment below in the ligh=
t
> of that update ?
>
> All the best,
>
> Pascal
>
> Le 22 juin 2019 =C3=A0 18:17, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> a =C3=
=A9crit :
>
> One quick follow-up to my review - I just noticed that while the draft's
> intended status (in the draft) is Informational, the Datatracker lists it
> as Proposed Standard. The Datatracker should be updated.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:28 PM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
>> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
>> drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometime=
s
>> on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance t=
o
>> the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, ple=
ase
>> see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>>
>> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
>> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF La=
st
>> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
>> discussion or by updating the draft.
>>
>> Document: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
>> Reviewer: Andy Malis
>> Review Date: 21 June 2019
>> IETF LC End Date: 26 June 2019
>> Intended Status: Informational
>>
>> Summary:
>>
>> I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the
>> Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.
>>
>> Overall comments:
>>
>> For this review, I was asked to "Focus on the impact/implications of the
>> architecture on routing/forwarding." I will leave minor details such as
>> editorial nits to others.
>>
>> This is a very long and detailed document, and I have no prior experienc=
e
>> with IEEE 802.15.4, 6lowpan, 6tisch, RPL, and related technologies. To
>> prepare for this review I did some basic background reading, such an onl=
ine
>> introduction to IEEE 802.15.4 and RFC 7554. So in this review, I really
>> don't feel competent to comments on some of the more technical aspects
>> related to those technologies. However, I do feel competent to comment f=
rom
>> the viewpoint of a naive reader with a general background in routing. As=
 a
>> naive reader, I appreciated the introduction to the technology in sectio=
ns
>> 1-3.
>>
>> The primary editor of this draft is also active in the DetNet working
>> group, and leverages the work being done there to support the work in th=
is
>> draft. The draft does reference some DetNet technologies that have not y=
et
>> been completely specified to the point where they can be implemented suc=
h
>> as PREOF (Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions), altho=
ugh
>> such specifications are an expected deliverable in the DetNet WG. So a f=
ull
>> implementation of this architecture may have to wait for the completion =
of
>> the related DetNet specification work.
>>
>> With respect to routing and forwarding, this draft builds upon the work
>> already done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for routing and 6lowpan head=
er
>> compression. It adds the necessary scheduling and time synchronization
>> functions needed to support the TSCH aspects of IEEE 802.15.4, which is =
the
>> point of this work. But other than these new aspects, routing and
>> forwarding should continue to work to the extent that they work in the
>> 6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 forwarding is the =
use
>> of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations in section 4.7.2. See=
 my
>> major issues below for more on this concern.
>>
>> Major issues:
>>
>> I'm concerned with the number of references to individual drafts (even i=
f
>> informational) in a major architecture specification, since the rest of =
the
>> work on this technology, including solution documents, will rest on the
>> correctness and completeness of the architecture. If these references ar=
e
>> essential, then I would recommend that publication of the architecture b=
e
>> delayed until it's more clear whether these individual drafts will be
>> adopted by a WG, and any abandoned individual drafts be removed. Otherwi=
se,
>> how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, abandoned work?
>> Speaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts,
>> draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn't been updated in
>> over four years, and should either be removed or adopted by the 6tisch W=
G.
>> Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination, hasn't been updated=
 in
>> over a year. Is it still alive? At least the remaining individual drafts
>> have fairly recent updates.
>>
>> A related concern is that this draft specifically depends on work to be
>> done elsewhere in and outside of the IETF that is currently unchartered
>> (see section A.2). Many of the individual drafts discussed in the previo=
us
>> paragraph are referenced in this section. To the extent that 6tisch depe=
nds
>> on this work for its own eventual success, the WG may wish to evaluate i=
f
>> there are alternative ways to have the necessary work completed, such as
>> using an alternative solution or rechartering the WG to include necessar=
y
>> work that looks unlikely to happen elsewhere.
>>
>> Minor issue:
>>
>> To the extent that this architecture makes use of centralized control
>> mechanisms such as PCE, the security considerations should mention this
>> dependency and perhaps have a short discussion of effects on the network=
 if
>> connectivity between the centralized controller and the network nodes is
>> lost, either due to an outage or a deliberate attack, and how such effec=
ts
>> could be mitigated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andy
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Pascal,<div><br></div><div>I did review 21.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 22, 2019=
 at 12:50 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco=
.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto">
Hello Andrew
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many thanks for the huge investment of time you spent on our technolog=
y. I hope you found the context of interest.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gory provided a similar feedback and I published 21 to address the spe=
cific point of references. Some were removed, some are now WG docs that wer=
e not, and the language was clarified to indicate some references are given=
 as examples of how a particular
 feature could be achieved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Would you please pick 21 and reassess your main comment below in the l=
ight of that update ?<br>
<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>All the best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pascal</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
Le 22 juin 2019 =C3=A0 18:17, Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">One quick follow-up to my review - I just noticed that whi=
le the draft&#39;s intended status (in the draft) is Informational, the Dat=
atracker=C2=A0lists it as Proposed Standard. The Datatracker should be upda=
ted.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Andy</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:28 PM Andre=
w G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">agmal=
is@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Hello,<br>
<br>
I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th=
e Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts=
 as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on spec=
ial request. The purpose of the
 review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information a=
bout the Routing Directorate, please see
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"=
_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
<br>
Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo=
uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca=
ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion=
 or by updating the draft.<br>
<br>
Document: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt<br>
Reviewer: Andy Malis<br>
Review Date: 21 June 2019<br>
IETF LC End Date: 26 June 2019<br>
Intended Status: Informational<br>
<br>
Summary:<br>
<br>
I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the Rout=
ing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.<br>
<br>
Overall comments:<br>
<br>
For this review, I was asked to &quot;Focus on the impact/implications of t=
he architecture on routing/forwarding.&quot; I will leave minor details suc=
h as editorial nits to others.<br>
<br>
This is a very long and detailed document, and I have no prior experience w=
ith IEEE 802.15.4, 6lowpan, 6tisch, RPL, and related technologies. To prepa=
re for this review I did some basic background reading, such an online intr=
oduction to IEEE 802.15.4 and RFC
 7554. So in this review, I really don&#39;t feel competent to comments on =
some of the more technical aspects related to those technologies. However, =
I do feel competent to comment from the viewpoint of a naive reader with a =
general background in routing. As a
 naive reader, I appreciated the introduction to the technology in sections=
 1-3.<br>
<br>
The primary editor of this draft is also active in the DetNet working group=
, and leverages the work being done there to support the work in this draft=
. The draft does reference some DetNet technologies that have not yet been =
completely specified to the point
 where they can be implemented such as PREOF (Packet Replication, Eliminati=
on and Ordering Functions), although such specifications are an expected de=
liverable in the DetNet WG. So a full implementation of this architecture m=
ay have to wait for the completion
 of the related DetNet specification work.<br>
<br>
With respect to routing and forwarding, this draft builds upon the work alr=
eady done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for routing and 6lowpan header com=
pression. It adds the necessary scheduling and time synchronization functio=
ns needed to support the TSCH aspects
 of IEEE 802.15.4, which is the point of this work. But other than these ne=
w aspects, routing and forwarding should continue to work to the extent tha=
t they work in the 6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 fo=
rwarding is the use of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations
 in section 4.7.2. See my major issues below for more on this concern.<br>
<br>
Major issues:<br>
<br>
I&#39;m concerned with the number of references to individual drafts (even =
if informational) in a major architecture specification, since the rest of =
the work on this technology, including solution documents, will rest on the=
 correctness and completeness of the
 architecture. If these references are essential, then I would recommend th=
at publication of the architecture be delayed until it&#39;s more clear whe=
ther these individual drafts will be adopted by a WG, and any abandoned ind=
ividual drafts be removed. Otherwise,
 how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, abandoned work? Sp=
eaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts, draft-svshah-t=
svwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn&#39;t been updated in over four yea=
rs, and should either be removed or
 adopted by the 6tisch WG. Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-eliminat=
ion, hasn&#39;t been updated in over a year. Is it still alive? At least th=
e remaining individual drafts have fairly recent updates.<br>
<br>
A related concern is that this draft specifically depends on work to be don=
e elsewhere in and outside of the IETF that is currently unchartered (see s=
ection A.2). Many of the individual drafts discussed in the previous paragr=
aph are referenced in this section.
 To the extent that 6tisch depends on this work for its own eventual succes=
s, the WG may wish to evaluate if there are alternative ways to have the ne=
cessary work completed, such as using an alternative solution or recharteri=
ng the WG to include necessary work
 that looks unlikely to happen elsewhere.<br>
<br>
Minor issue:<br>
<br>
To the extent that this architecture makes use of centralized control mecha=
nisms such as PCE, the security considerations should mention this dependen=
cy and perhaps have a short discussion of effects on the network if connect=
ivity between the centralized controller
 and the network nodes is lost, either due to an outage or a deliberate att=
ack, and how such effects could be mitigated.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Andy<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005cd9a9058bec77f3--


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From nobody Mon Jun 24 05:40:18 2019
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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 08:40:01 -0400
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To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture.all@ietf.org>,  "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-21.txt
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Pascal,

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:24 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <
pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hello Andrew:
>
>
>
> Many thanks for your in-depth review.
>
>
>
> Please see below:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >  The primary editor of this draft is also active in the DetNet working
> group, and leverages the work being done there to support the work in thi=
s
> draft. The draft does reference some DetNet technologies that have not ye=
t
> been completely specified to the point where they can be implemented such
> as PREOF (Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions), althou=
gh
> such specifications are an expected deliverable in the DetNet WG. So a fu=
ll
> implementation of this architecture may have to wait for the completion o=
f
> the related DetNet specification work.
>
> <PT> Very true. Note that 6TiSCH was not chartered to deliver
> specifications to implement the deterministic side of the architecture. W=
e
> hope to form RAW to do that, and RAW would inherit from DetNet=E2=80=99s
> specifications that are on the works now. At the architecture level, the
> reference we need is the DetNet architecture that introduces PREOFs, not
> the specs. And as you know, the DetNet architecture will be RFC before
> this. So I guess we do not have an issue there but rather a clear order i=
n
> which things will get done, do we?
>

I wasn't aware that while deterministic delivery was in the architecture
draft, it's not yet in the charter. Perhaps it should be made more explicit
in the architecture. Right now, "deterministic" is everywhere in the draft,
starting with the abstract.


>
>
> > With respect to routing and forwarding, this draft builds upon the work
> already done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for routing and 6lowpan heade=
r
> compression. It adds the necessary scheduling and time synchronization
> functions needed to support the TSCH aspects of IEEE 802.15.4, which is t=
he
> point of this work. But other than these new aspects, routing and
> forwarding should continue to work to the extent that they work in the
> 6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 forwarding is the u=
se
> of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations in section 4.7.2. See =
my
> major issues below for more on this concern.
>
> <PT> That will be entirely removed, please see below.
>

Thanks.


>
> Major issues:
>
>
>
> --------------
>
> I'm concerned with the number of references to individual drafts (even if
> informational) in a major architecture specification, since the rest of t=
he
> work on this technology, including solution documents, will rest on the
> correctness and completeness of the architecture. If these references are
> essential, then I would recommend that publication of the architecture be
> delayed until it's more clear whether these individual drafts will be
> adopted by a WG, and any abandoned individual drafts be removed. Otherwis=
e,
> how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, abandoned work?
> Speaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts,
> draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn't been updated in
> over four years, and should either be removed or adopted by the 6tisch WG=
.
> Another, draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination, hasn't been updated =
in
> over a year. Is it still alive? At least the remaining individual drafts
> have fairly recent updates.
>
>
>
> <PT> Yes, the link to svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations is not
> really used in the architecture, it=E2=80=99s more of a pointer to work t=
hat we
> thought years ago would happen at TSVWG and never did. DetNet never seeme=
d
> to depend on it either. I should really have removed that link on my own =
in
> addition to the changes I did in reaction to Gorry=E2=80=99s review, it w=
ill be
> gone in -22. I=E2=80=99ll also remove what is section 4.8.3 in -21. Looki=
ng at the
> other non-WG doc references, I do not think that the same reasoning
> applies, but I=E2=80=99m happy to discuss that in more depth.
>

Of the other references, I'm most concerned about
draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination. It would be really good for
both 6tisch and DetNet if you could work with the bier WG to get it active
and adopted there.


> Minor issue:
>
>
> To the extent that this architecture makes use of centralized control
> mechanisms such as PCE, the security considerations should mention this
> dependency and perhaps have a short discussion of effects on the network =
if
> connectivity between the centralized controller and the network nodes is
> lost, either due to an outage or a deliberate attack, and how such effect=
s
> could be mitigated.
>
>
>
> <PT> Makes sense to me. The inheritance from DetNet applies to both the
> protection of the control path and of the time distribution, which I=E2=
=80=99m
> discussing with David in parallel.
>
> Proposed text:
>
> =E2=80=9D
>
> The operation of 6TiSCH Tracks inherits its high level operation from
> DetNet and is subject to the observations in section 5 of
> [ietf-detnet-architecture]. As discussed there, measures must be taken to
> protect the time synchronization, and for 6TiSCH this includes ensuring
> that the ASN, which is used for the computation of NONCE,  is not
> compromised. Also, the installation and maintenance of 6TiSCH Tracks
> depends in the availability of a controller with a PCE to compute and pus=
h
> them in the network. When that connectivity is lost, existing Tracks may
> continue to operate until the end of their lifetime, but cannot be remove=
d
> or updated, and new Tracks cannot be installed. As with DetNet in general=
,
> the communication with the PCE must be secured and should be protected
> against DoS attacks, and the discussion on the security considerations
> defined for Abstraction and Control of Traffic Engineered Networks (ACTN)
> applies equally to 6TiSCH.
>
> =E2=80=9C
>

Very nice, thanks!

Cheers,
Andy

--0000000000000d13f2058c111dcb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Pascal,</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:24 AM Pascal Thuber=
t (pthubert) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3272723876309912127WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello Andrew:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thanks for your in-depth review.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please see below:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>&gt; =C2=A0The primary editor of this draft is a=
lso active in the DetNet working group, and leverages the work being done t=
here to support the work in this draft. The draft does reference some DetNe=
t technologies that have not yet been completely specified to the point whe=
re they can be implemented such as PREOF (Packet Replication, Elimination a=
nd Ordering Functions), although such specifications are an expected delive=
rable in the DetNet WG. So a full implementation of this architecture may h=
ave to wait for the completion of the related DetNet specification work.<br=
>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;PT&gt; Very true. Note that 6TiSCH was not chart=
ered to deliver specifications to implement the deterministic side of the a=
rchitecture. We hope to form RAW to do that, and RAW would inherit from Det=
Net=E2=80=99s specifications that are on the works now. At the architecture=
 level, the reference we need is the DetNet architecture that introduces PR=
EOFs, not the specs. And as you know, the DetNet architecture will be RFC b=
efore this. So I guess we do not have an issue there but rather a clear ord=
er in which things will get done, do we?</p></div></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>I wasn&#39;t aware that while deterministic=
 delivery was in the architecture draft, it&#39;s not yet in the charter. P=
erhaps it should be made more explicit in the architecture. Right now, &quo=
t;deterministic&quot; is everywhere in the draft, starting with the abstrac=
t.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-3272723876309912127WordSec=
tion1"><div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt; With respect to routing and forwarding, this dr=
aft builds upon the work already done in the 6lowpan WG, such as RPL for ro=
uting and 6lowpan header compression. It adds the necessary scheduling and =
time synchronization functions needed to support the TSCH aspects of IEEE 8=
02.15.4, which is the point of this work. But other than these new aspects,=
 routing and forwarding should continue to work to the extent that they wor=
k in the 6lowpan specifications. My one concern regarding IPv6 forwarding i=
s the use of draft-svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations in section 4.7=
.2. See my major issues below for more on this concern.<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;PT&gt; That will be entirely removed, please see=
 below.</p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>T=
hanks.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-3272723876309912127WordS=
ection1"><div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none=
;border-left:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>Major issues:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--------------<br>
<br>I&#39;m concerned with the number of references to individual drafts (e=
ven if informational) in a major architecture specification, since the rest=
 of the work on this technology, including solution documents, will rest on=
 the correctness and completeness of the architecture. If these references =
are essential, then I would recommend that publication of the architecture =
be delayed until it&#39;s more clear whether these individual drafts will b=
e adopted by a WG, and any abandoned individual drafts be removed. Otherwis=
e, how can a published architecture depend on unpublished, abandoned work? =
Speaking of which, I note that one of those referenced drafts, draft-svshah=
-tsvwg-lln-diffserv-recommendations, hasn&#39;t been updated in over four y=
ears, and should either be removed or adopted by the 6tisch WG. Another, dr=
aft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination, hasn&#39;t been updated in over a=
 year. Is it still alive? At least the remaining individual drafts have fai=
rly recent updates.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;PT&gt; Yes, the link to svshah-tsvwg-lln-diffser=
v-recommendations is not really used in the architecture, it=E2=80=99s more=
 of a pointer to work that we thought years ago would happen at TSVWG and n=
ever did. DetNet never seemed to depend on it either. I should really have =
removed that link on my own in addition to the changes I did in reaction to=
 Gorry=E2=80=99s review, it will be gone in -22. I=E2=80=99ll also remove w=
hat is section 4.8.3 in -21. Looking at the other non-WG doc references, I =
do not think that the same reasoning applies, but I=E2=80=99m happy to disc=
uss that in more depth.</p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>Of the other references, I&#39;m most concerned about draft-=
thubert-bier-replication-elimination. It would be really good for both 6tis=
ch and DetNet if you could work with the bier WG to get it active and adopt=
ed there.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-3272723876309912127WordSe=
ction1"><div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;=
border-left:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Minor issue:<br><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<br>To the extent that this architecture makes use of centralized control m=
echanisms such as PCE, the security considerations should mention this depe=
ndency and perhaps have a short discussion of effects on the network if con=
nectivity between the centralized controller and the network nodes is lost,=
 either due to an outage or a deliberate attack, and how such effects could=
 be mitigated.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;PT&gt; Makes sense to me. The inheritance from D=
etNet applies to both the protection of the control path and of the time di=
stribution, which I=E2=80=99m discussing with David in parallel.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Proposed text:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:9.85pt">The operation of 6TiSCH=
 Tracks inherits its high level operation from DetNet and is subject to the=
 observations in section 5 of [ietf-detnet-architecture]. As discussed ther=
e, measures must be taken to protect the time synchronization, and for 6TiS=
CH this includes ensuring that the ASN, which is used for the computation o=
f NONCE, =C2=A0is not compromised. Also, the installation and maintenance o=
f 6TiSCH Tracks depends in the availability of a controller with a PCE to c=
ompute and push them in the network. When that connectivity is lost, existi=
ng Tracks may continue to operate until the end of their lifetime, but cann=
ot be removed or updated, and new Tracks cannot be installed. As with DetNe=
t in general, the communication with the PCE must be secured and should be =
protected against DoS attacks, and the discussion on the security considera=
tions defined for Abstraction and Control of Traffic Engineered Networks (A=
CTN) applies equally to 6TiSCH.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9C</p></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Very nice, thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,=
</div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>

--0000000000000d13f2058c111dcb--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
CC: "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture.all@ietf.org>, "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>
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--_000_EC0A79825AD94DE7AA835D57C447BDD1ciscocom_--


From nobody Fri Jun 28 18:49:36 2019
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] Open review assignments in rtgdir
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Dear all, 

Please see the summary of the RTG DIR review assignment.
It's usually the busiest time in RTG DIR review before IETF meeting. We have a long list of draft under reviewing. 
It's also the busiest time for the reviewer. We'd appreciated if you can provide reply in a timely manner when you received a view request, no matter it's positive or negative. 
Thanks. 

The following reviewers have assignments:

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Eric Gray              2019-05-21 draft-ietf-roll-efficient-npdao- 
Susan Hares            None       draft-ietf-mpls-rfc8287-len-clarification- 
Nicolai Leymann        2019-05-23 draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext- 
Mike McBride           2019-07-04 draft-ietf-babel-hmac- *
Tal Mizrahi            None       draft-ietf-pce-stateful-hpce- 
Ben Niven-Jenkins      2019-07-11 draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te- *
Carlos Pignataro       2019-07-08 draft-ietf-manet-dlep-latency-extension- 
Yingzhen Qu            2019-07-04 draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis- 
Ines Robles            None       draft-ietf-pce-stateful-path-protection- 
Henning Rogge          2019-07-04 draft-ietf-babel-dtls- 
John Scudder           2019-07-04 draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile- 
Sasha Vainshtein       2019-07-04 draft-ietf-babel-applicability- *

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Michael Richardson     2019-07-13 draft-ietf-rift-rift-06 

* Other revision previously reviewed
** This revision already reviewed

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Himanshu Shah
  Ravi Singh
  Dave Sinicrope
  Harish Sitaraman
  Andy Smith
  Tomonori Takeda
  Sasha Vainshtein
  Stig Venaas
  Russ White
  IJsbrand Wijnands

