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Hi, all.

  I reminded one thing.

  Eiichi made good set of requirements. The item is many.

  One thing we have to be in mind firmly is "Generally in multicast
area, there is no one-size fits all mechanism." That means goal of SAM
RG is not having complete system that fulfill all the requirements he
pointed out. Instead, we have to use his as a kind of tool to
characterize various proposals like "A is good at this point but
obstacle at that point."

And requirements is depends on the applications and situations. So, we
can be mercy for proposals.

  Eiichi, how about append the phrase like "followings are not mandatory
rather than we have to choose subset of them depends on
real-applications we would use."?
--
ug

Eiichi Muramoto wrote:
> Hello all.
> 
> We just submitted a draft.
> 
> I posted it after the cut-off date. So I also put it below.
> http://www.xcast.jp/~muramoto/draft-irtf-sam-muramoto-generic-require-00.txt
> 
> Although it is not polished enough,
> we hope it would help our discussion in the next IETF meeting.
> 
> Regards,
> Eiichi Muramoto, Yuji Imai, Nobuo Kawaguchi / WIDE project
> 
> -----
> muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam


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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Mon Jul 10 16:53:52 2006
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Subject: [SAM] CFP - Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Multicasting (P2PM'07)
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CALL FOR PAPERS

Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Multicasting (P2PM'07)
www.samrg.org/p2pm07/
hosted by
IEEE Consumer and Communications and Networking
Conference 2007 (IEEE CCNC 2007)
www.ieee-ccnc.org

The convergence of networked consumer electronics and
peer-to-peer networking enables new applications that
require efficient multicast communication.  These
applications include peercasting of multimedia streams,
multi-party conferencing, multi-player games, and group chat.
Many consumer applications of multicasting involve small
groups of users, and future P2P multicast services could
need to support millions of simultaneous groups.

Due to delayed deployment of native multicast, various
end-system, application layer (ALM) and overlay multicast
(OM) designs have been proposed.  In the future, these
protocols are expected to coexist and integrate with
native IP multicast protocols while offering more flexible
deployment options and scaling to support a greater number
of simultaneous multicast groups.

P2PM=9207 is intended to serve as a continuing forum for
scientists and engineers in academia and industry to
exchange and discuss their experiences, new ideas, and
research results about all aspects of P2P multicasting.
It will address the challenges, technologies, and architectures
leading to real-world solutions that provide P2P users
with efficient, flexible, and deployable multicast services.
The principal theme of P2PM=9207 is the development of protocols,
architectures and applications of peer-to-peer multicasting
and the performance evaluation of these designs.

Topics of particular interest include, but are not
limited to:

=AD	Peer-to-peer overlays with multicast support
=AD	Small group multicast
=AD	Explicit multicasting
=AD	Application Layer Multicast (ALM)
=AD	Overlay Multicast (OM)
=AD	Peercasting
=AD	Hybrid multicasting architectures
=AD	Comparitive analysis of ALM and OM architectures
=AD	Scalable integration of QoS mechanisms
=AD	Overlay content distribution
=AD	Multi-path routing for overlay multicasting
=AD	Methods for group formation and discovery that scale to large numbers=
 of
groups
=AD	Support for highly dynamic group membership
=AD	Efficient multicast for limited-resource nodes and access links
=AD	Control mechanisms for hybrid systems
=AD	Underlay network support and optimization
=AD	Deploying, diagnosing, debugging, and managing P2P multicast services
=AD	Geocasting
=AD	Multicasting in the global information grid (GIG)
=AD	Integration with network- and application-layer security mechanisms

Important dates:
    Sept 7, 2006    Papers due
    Sept 30, 2006   Reviews returned
    Oct 10, 2006    Camera ready copy due
    Jan 11, 2007    Workshop

Further information:
   See the following web sites:
   www.samrg.org/p2pm07/
   http://www.ieee-ccnc.org/callforpapers/call.html



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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Tue Jul 11 16:10:39 2006
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From: Eiichi Muramoto <muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com>
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Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


	Title		: Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast Framework in Non-GIG Networks
	Author(s)	: E. Muramoto, et al.
	Filename	: draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
	Pages		: 12
	Date		: 2006-7-10
	
   The Scalable Adaptive Multicast (SAM) Research Group is chartered to
   explore and research techniques which improve multicast performance
   with respect to dimensions such as number of groups, dynamics of
   group membership, dynamics of the network topology, and network
   resource constraints.  This document describes requirements for SAM
   framework, especially for non-GIG environment.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Tue Jul 11 16:10:42 2006
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From: Eiichi Muramoto <muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 04:54:36 +0900
To: Yuji IMAI <ug@xcast.jp>
Subject: Re: [SAM] draft-irtf-sam-muramoto-generic-require-00.txt
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UG 

>  One thing we have to be in mind firmly is "Generally in multicast
>area, there is no one-size fits all mechanism."
I agree.
So, shall we define framework?

--
Regards,
Eiichi Muramoto

Yuji IMAI wrote:
>Hi, all.
>
>  I reminded one thing.
>
>  Eiichi made good set of requirements. The item is many.
>
>  One thing we have to be in mind firmly is "Generally in multicast
>area, there is no one-size fits all mechanism." That means goal of SAM
>RG is not having complete system that fulfill all the requirements he
>pointed out. Instead, we have to use his as a kind of tool to
>characterize various proposals like "A is good at this point but
>obstacle at that point."
>
>And requirements is depends on the applications and situations. So, we
>can be mercy for proposals.
>
>  Eiichi, how about append the phrase like "followings are not mandatory
>rather than we have to choose subset of them depends on
>real-applications we would use."?
>--
>ug
>
>Eiichi Muramoto wrote:
>> Hello all.
>> 
>> We just submitted a draft.
>> 
>> I posted it after the cut-off date. So I also put it below.
>> http://www.xcast.jp/~muramoto/draft-irtf-sam-muramoto-generic-require-00.txt
>> 
>> Although it is not polished enough,
>> we hope it would help our discussion in the next IETF meeting.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Eiichi Muramoto, Yuji Imai, Nobuo Kawaguchi / WIDE project
>> 
>> -----
>> muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> SAM mailing list
>> SAM@irtf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> SAM mailing list
>> SAM@irtf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>

-----
muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com

_______________________________________________
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My view is that if we can first get at a roughly common understanding on 
the requirements of OMCAST/ALM/P2PM, we could check how/whether 
different implications could be addressed with a framework, or different 
variants of protocol frameworks need to be investigated. Nevertheless, 
it may worth looking at the state-of-the-art proposals and see 
whether/how they address the identified requirements.
Xiaoming

Eiichi Muramoto wrote:
> UG 
> 
> 
>> One thing we have to be in mind firmly is "Generally in multicast
>>area, there is no one-size fits all mechanism."
> 
> I agree.
> So, shall we define framework?
> 
> --
> Regards,
> Eiichi Muramoto
> 
> Yuji IMAI wrote:
> 
>>Hi, all.
>>
>> I reminded one thing.
>>
>> Eiichi made good set of requirements. The item is many.
>>
>> One thing we have to be in mind firmly is "Generally in multicast
>>area, there is no one-size fits all mechanism." That means goal of SAM
>>RG is not having complete system that fulfill all the requirements he
>>pointed out. Instead, we have to use his as a kind of tool to
>>characterize various proposals like "A is good at this point but
>>obstacle at that point."
>>
>>And requirements is depends on the applications and situations. So, we
>>can be mercy for proposals.
>>
>> Eiichi, how about append the phrase like "followings are not mandatory
>>rather than we have to choose subset of them depends on
>>real-applications we would use."?
>>--
>>ug
>>
>>Eiichi Muramoto wrote:
>>
>>>Hello all.
>>>
>>>We just submitted a draft.
>>>
>>>I posted it after the cut-off date. So I also put it below.
>>>http://www.xcast.jp/~muramoto/draft-irtf-sam-muramoto-generic-require-00.txt
>>>
>>>Although it is not polished enough,
>>>we hope it would help our discussion in the next IETF meeting.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eiichi Muramoto, Yuji Imai, Nobuo Kawaguchi / WIDE project
>>>
>>>-----
>>>muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>SAM mailing list
>>>SAM@irtf.org
>>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>SAM mailing list
>>>SAM@irtf.org
>>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>
> 
> -----
> muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam

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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Wed Jul 12 07:41:34 2006
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Thursday morning seems work for me - would it be in the breakfast room
or near registration desk?
Xiaoming
Yuji IMAI wrote:
> Hi, all.
> 
>   I am happy there are active people here. BTW, how many people will be
> next IETF in Montreal. If they not so small but not so many group, I
> want to see and have lunch or dinners other than the on-agenda meeting
> on Tuesday. I think we have to many thing to discuss in a 2 and half
> hours meeting.
> 
>  I will touch down at 19:10 on Monday 10th July and jump early morning
> on Thursday 13th.
> 
>  Are there any other?
> --
> ug
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam

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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Wed Jul 12 07:49:33 2006
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Xiaoming,

  As meeting slot move from Tuesday to morning on Thursday, for me
it become not so good to meet in the breakfast room. Instead, how about
coming and see at Room 513B, the room for samrg?
--
ug

On 7/12/06, Xiaoming Fu <fu@cs.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
> Thursday morning seems work for me - would it be in the breakfast room
> or near registration desk?
> Xiaoming
> Yuji IMAI wrote:
> > Hi, all.
> >
> >   I am happy there are active people here. BTW, how many people will be
> > next IETF in Montreal. If they not so small but not so many group, I
> > want to see and have lunch or dinners other than the on-agenda meeting
> > on Tuesday. I think we have to many thing to discuss in a 2 and half
> > hours meeting.
> >
> >  I will touch down at 19:10 on Monday 10th July and jump early morning
> > on Thursday 13th.
> >
> >  Are there any other?
> > --
> > ug
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SAM mailing list
> > SAM@irtf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>


-- 
ug

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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jul 13 09:01:38 2006
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Hi, all.

  Here is a pdf of my presentation.

  http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
-- 
ug

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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jul 13 14:46:07 2006
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Hi, 

I put my presentation of IETF-66 samrg meeting at
http://xcast.cogma.org/samrg/samrg-kawaguchi-AppArea-20060713.pdf

yours.
#It is also on the http://www.samrg.org/
----
Nobuo Kawaguchi 
Nagoya Univ./ WIDE Project


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Hi all,

Before John uploads the presentation slides in 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt
Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.

Look forward to seeing you soon.
Xiaoming

John Buford wrote:
> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions 
> on the agenda or another contribution you would like
> to present, please send to mail list 
> or chairs.
> 
> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
> 
> ==========================================
> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
> 
> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> 
> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> 
> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
> 
> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast 
>      Framework in Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>       
> 1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and 
>       key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
> 
> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
> 
> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> 
> 2:20 Open discussion
> 
> 2:30 Close of meeting
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jul 13 21:19:06 2006
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	<44B62F51.5060406@cs.uni-goettingen.de>
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Dear Xiaoming Fu,

As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;

what are the list of problems we want to tackle

and

what are proper approaches to each of these problems.

Regards

Xiaoming Fu wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Before John uploads the presentation slides in 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
> a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt 
> 
> Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
> 
> Look forward to seeing you soon.
> Xiaoming
> 
> John Buford wrote:
>> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
>> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda or 
>> another contribution you would like
>> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
>>
>> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
>>
>> ==========================================
>> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
>> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
>>
>> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>
>> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>
>> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
>>
>> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework in 
>> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and       
>> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
>>
>> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
>>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
>>
>> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>
>> 2:20 Open discussion
>>
>> 2:30 Close of meeting
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SAM mailing list
>> SAM@irtf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jul 14 00:35:44 2006
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Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:35:40 +0900
From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
To: "Yangwoo Ko" <newcat@icu.ac.kr>
Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
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	<44B62F51.5060406@cs.uni-goettingen.de> <44B6F0FE.8000805@icu.ac.kr>
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Hi, Yangwoo.

  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you described,
but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you can see much
more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these area
cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the draft.
(20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made mistake in my
presentation this time.)

The targets are

- To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
- To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
by end hosts

That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, good enough to
start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.

So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We have to spent
more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each other.

And my impression for DMMP are

 - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity node on
good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For me, that may
become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".

- From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so complicated that
logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by reasonable
cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node behavior
is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
multicast scheme.

But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.

So, I want others take a look of their draft.
--
ug

On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>
> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>
> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>
> and
>
> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>
> Regards
>
> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
> > http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt
> >
> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
> >
> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
> > Xiaoming
> >
> > John Buford wrote:
> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda or
> >> another contribution you would like
> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
> >>
> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
> >>
> >> ==========================================
> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
> >>
> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >>
> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >>
> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
> >>
> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework in
> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and
> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
> >>
> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
> >>
> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >>
> >> 2:20 Open discussion
> >>
> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> SAM mailing list
> >> SAM@irtf.org
> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SAM mailing list
> > SAM@irtf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>


-- 
ug

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jul 14 01:17:46 2006
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	<44B62F51.5060406@cs.uni-goettingen.de>
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Dear UG,

I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;

* Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
in previous presentations

and

* DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
scenarios or requirements well.

In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)

I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
if time permits.

Regards

Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
> 
> Hi, Yangwoo.
> 
>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you described,
> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you can see much
> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these area
> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the draft.
> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made mistake in my
> presentation this time.)
> 
> The targets are
> 
> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
> by end hosts
> 
> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, good 
> enough to
> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
> 
> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We have to 
> spent
> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each other.
> 
> And my impression for DMMP are
> 
> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity node on
> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For me, that may
> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
> 
> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so complicated that
> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by reasonable
> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node behavior
> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
> multicast scheme.
> 
> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
> 
> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
> -- 
> ug
> 
> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>>
>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>>
>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>>
>> and
>>
>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
>> > 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
>> > 
>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt 
>>
>> >
>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
>> >
>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
>> > Xiaoming
>> >
>> > John Buford wrote:
>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda or
>> >> another contribution you would like
>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
>> >>
>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
>> >>
>> >> ==========================================
>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
>> >>
>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >>
>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >>
>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
>> >>
>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework in
>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and
>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
>> >>
>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
>> >>
>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >>
>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
>> >>
>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> SAM mailing list
>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > SAM mailing list
>> > SAM@irtf.org
>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SAM mailing list
>> SAM@irtf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



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Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org

Dear UG, all:
      Unfortunately, I was not in the ietf66 meeting as I had another 
meeting in Athens. Anyway, I will continue the work in SAM and 
all-related issues.

      It would be nice to get your help at any chance. I mean we could 
exchange our minds and contribute to SAM as we could.

Best Regards

Jun

> Jun,
> 
>  I apologize not to see you after meeting. But if you still interested
> in SAM and improvement requirement draft, please let us help.
> 
>  I will leave Montreal 11 AM so I just visit IETF venue only 30 min.
> If you eventually see me, please let me make greeting.
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> ug
> 
> 
> On 7/13/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
> 
>> Hi, Yuji, all:
>>       So glad to receive your slides.
>>
>>       For the part of "necessities of these requirements", i.e. "the
>> reason why these requirements are important", I would like to give my
>> hands in any case. We could discuss in details after this meeting.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Jun
>>
>>
>> > Hi, all.
>> >
>> >  Here is a pdf of my presentation.
>> >
>> >  http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Jun Lei
>> PhD Student
>>
>> Address:
>> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>> Institut fuer Informatik
>> Telematics Group
>> Lotzestrasse 16-18
>> 37083 Goettingen
>>
>>
>> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>
>> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>
> 
> 


-- 
Jun Lei
PhD Student

Address:
Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
Institut fuer Informatik
Telematics Group
Lotzestrasse 16-18
37083 Goettingen


Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78

Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jul 14 08:53:01 2006
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From: "John Buford" <buford@research.panasonic.com>
To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
Subject: survey ID (was RE: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements")
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:52:51 -0400
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Jun,
Please see the last slide on Next Steps
in the ALM/OM survey slides.
This pertains to producing a survey
ID.

Let's discuss on the email list
an outline of such an ID that reviews
existing ALM/OM/hybrid systems
for use in a potential SAM
framework. 

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Jun Lei [mailto:lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:10 AM
To: Yuji -UG- Imai
Cc: sam@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements".


Dear UG, all:
      Unfortunately, I was not in the ietf66 meeting as I had another 
meeting in Athens. Anyway, I will continue the work in SAM and 
all-related issues.

      It would be nice to get your help at any chance. I mean we could 
exchange our minds and contribute to SAM as we could.

Best Regards

Jun

> Jun,
> 
>  I apologize not to see you after meeting. But if you still interested
> in SAM and improvement requirement draft, please let us help.
> 
>  I will leave Montreal 11 AM so I just visit IETF venue only 30 min.
> If you eventually see me, please let me make greeting.
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> ug
> 
> 
> On 7/13/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
> 
>> Hi, Yuji, all:
>>       So glad to receive your slides.
>>
>>       For the part of "necessities of these requirements", i.e. "the
>> reason why these requirements are important", I would like to give my
>> hands in any case. We could discuss in details after this meeting.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Jun
>>
>>
>> > Hi, all.
>> >
>> >  Here is a pdf of my presentation.
>> >
>> >  http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Jun Lei
>> PhD Student
>>
>> Address:
>> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>> Institut fuer Informatik
>> Telematics Group
>> Lotzestrasse 16-18
>> 37083 Goettingen
>>
>>
>> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>
>> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>
> 
> 


-- 
Jun Lei
PhD Student

Address:
Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
Institut fuer Informatik
Telematics Group
Lotzestrasse 16-18
37083 Goettingen


Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78

Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jul 14 10:45:55 2006
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Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org

During the IETF66 meeting, relationship
of SAM work to AMT in mboned was raised.
Here is a pointer the current AMT draft:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mboned-auto-multicast-06.txt


_______________________________________________
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SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jul 14 11:15:38 2006
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Dear John, all:

> Jun,
> Please see the last slide on Next Steps
> in the ALM/OM survey slides.
> This pertains to producing a survey
> ID.
> 
> Let's discuss on the email list
> an outline of such an ID that reviews
> existing ALM/OM/hybrid systems
> for use in a potential SAM
> framework. 
> 
Great. Then, I would like to prepare a Table of Contents (ToC) for the 
survey draft before next week. I hope that it will be helpful to SAM 
survey ID.

Best Regards
Jun
> John
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jun Lei [mailto:lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de]
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:10 AM
> To: Yuji -UG- Imai
> Cc: sam@irtf.org
> Subject: Re: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements".
> 
> 
> Dear UG, all:
>       Unfortunately, I was not in the ietf66 meeting as I had another 
> meeting in Athens. Anyway, I will continue the work in SAM and 
> all-related issues.
> 
>       It would be nice to get your help at any chance. I mean we could 
> exchange our minds and contribute to SAM as we could.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Jun
> 
> 
>>Jun,
>>
>> I apologize not to see you after meeting. But if you still interested
>>in SAM and improvement requirement draft, please let us help.
>>
>> I will leave Montreal 11 AM so I just visit IETF venue only 30 min.
>>If you eventually see me, please let me make greeting.
>>
>>Regards,
>>-- 
>>ug
>>
>>
>>On 7/13/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi, Yuji, all:
>>>      So glad to receive your slides.
>>>
>>>      For the part of "necessities of these requirements", i.e. "the
>>>reason why these requirements are important", I would like to give my
>>>hands in any case. We could discuss in details after this meeting.
>>>
>>>Best Regards
>>>
>>>Jun
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi, all.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a pdf of my presentation.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>-- 
>>>Jun Lei
>>>PhD Student
>>>
>>>Address:
>>>Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>>>Institut fuer Informatik
>>>Telematics Group
>>>Lotzestrasse 16-18
>>>37083 Goettingen
>>>
>>>
>>>Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>>>Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>>
>>>Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 


-- 
Jun Lei
PhD Student

Address:
Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
Institut fuer Informatik
Telematics Group
Lotzestrasse 16-18
37083 Goettingen


Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78

Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jul 14 13:46:00 2006
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To: Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
Subject: Re: survey ID (was RE: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements")
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Jun, ok great. John
=C2=A0
On Jul 14, 2006 11:15 AM, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
wrote:

>Dear John, all:
>
>>Jun,
>>Please see the last slide on Next Steps
>>in the ALM/OM survey slides.
>>This pertains to producing a survey
>>ID.
>>
>>Let's discuss on the email list
>>an outline of such an ID that reviews
>>existing ALM/OM/hybrid systems
>>for use in a potential SAM
>>framework.
>>
>Great. Then, I would like to prepare a Table of Contents (ToC) for the
>survey draft before next week. I hope that it will be helpful to SAM
>survey ID.
>
>Best Regards
>Jun
>>John
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jun Lei [mailto:lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de]
>>Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:10 AM
>>To: Yuji -UG- Imai
>>Cc: sam@irtf.org
>>Subject: Re: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements".
>>
>>
>>Dear UG, all:
>>Unfortunately, I was not in the ietf66 meeting as I had another
>>meeting in Athens. Anyway, I will continue the work in SAM and
>>all-related issues.
>>
>>It would be nice to get your help at any chance. I mean we could
>>exchange our minds and contribute to SAM as we could.
>>
>>Best Regards
>>
>>Jun
>>
>>
>>>Jun,
>>>
>>>I apologize not to see you after meeting. But if you still interested
>>>in SAM and improvement requirement draft, please let us help.
>>>
>>>I will leave Montreal 11 AM so I just visit IETF venue only 30 min.
>>>If you eventually see me, please let me make greeting.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>--
>>>ug
>>>
>>>
>>>On 7/13/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi, Yuji, all:
>>>>So glad to receive your slides.
>>>>
>>>>For the part of "necessities of these requirements", i.e. "the
>>>>reason why these requirements are important", I would like to give
>>>>my
>>>>hands in any case. We could discuss in details after this meeting.
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards
>>>>
>>>>Jun
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi, all.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here is a pdf of my presentation.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Jun Lei
>>>>PhD Student
>>>>
>>>>Address:
>>>>Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>>>>Institut fuer Informatik
>>>>Telematics Group
>>>>Lotzestrasse 16-18
>>>>37083 Goettingen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>>>>Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>>>
>>>>Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Jun Lei
>PhD Student
>
>Address:
>Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>Institut fuer Informatik
>Telematics Group
>Lotzestrasse 16-18
>37083 Goettingen
>
>
>Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>
>Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de



_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



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Dear John and others,

I can smell a little divergence here. According to charter, SAM RG is

<quote>
to explore and research techniques which improve multicast performance 
with respect to dimensions ...
</quote>

What performance measure is improved by auto multicast? Without auto
multicast or equivalent techniques, IP multicast just does not happen
across isolated islands. It is the problem of on-or-off rather than
that of better-or-worse.

However in your presentation slide set used in IETF 66 SAM RG meeting,
around half of problem statement (goals ???) is related to deployment
issue of IP native multicast. In that sense, auto multicast is one of
elements that should be considered in the spectrum of SAM alternatives.

In my understanding, the spectrum looks like;

   ?? ---- auto multicast ---- hybrid ---- OM ---- ALM ---- ??

Moving toward leftmost side, we have more chances to integrate well
with(or to be constrained more by) existing IP native multicast
deployment.

Just my two cents.


John Buford wrote:
> During the IETF66 meeting, relationship
> of SAM work to AMT in mboned was raised.
> Here is a pointer the current AMT draft:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mboned-auto-multicast-06.txt
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements".
To: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
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Hi Yuji,

Thanks for mentioning the requirement I suggested a little
while back (and thanks for crediting me).

-  Multicast should not artificially concentrate traffic on certain
   nodes or links
   (since this will introduce unnecessary queueing delays and
   unnecessary packet loss in addition to unnecessarily long
   network paths and unnecessarily large end-to-end latencies
   --  which is bad for interactive VoIP conferences, videoconferences
   and e-meetings)

Here are a couple of additional requirements that are worth mentioning
-- at least for the case of the interactive, conferencing-type
applications.

-  Multicast packets should follow "close to optimal" routes from
   a source to a destination.  (If they don't, the above interactive
   conferencing applications won't work well).

-  Multicast routing should converge almost as rapidly as unicast
   routing even if there are large numbers (e.g. millions) of
   interactive conferences).  (If not, conferencing won't work
   well.)

Rick



                                                                           
             "Yuji -UG- Imai"                                              
             <ug@xcast.jp>                                                 
                                                                        To 
             07/13/2006 09:01          sam@irtf.org                        
             AM                                                         cc 
                                                                           
                                                                   Subject 
                                       [SAM] Slides for "SAM               
                                       requirements".                      
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           




Hi, all.

  Here is a pdf of my presentation.

  http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
--
ug

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Hi,

I put my presentation 

http://xcast.cogma.org/samrg/samrg-kawaguchi-AppArea-20060713.pdf

yours.
(It will be put on the http://www.samrg.org/)

Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
> Hi, all.
> 
>  Here is a pdf of my presentation.
> 
>  http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf

-- 
Nobuo Kawaguchi 
Nagoya Univ./ WIDE Project


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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Mon Jul 17 11:06:04 2006
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Dear Yangwoo, all:

      Thank you for your comments. The slides presented in IETF66 might 
not have touched at your expections. However, the proposed DMMP has 
basically solved the following requirements:

1. Multicast capability, either one-to-many, or many-to-many
2. Scalability requirements: DMMP is capable of supporting thousands of 
group per session
3. Adaptive requirements:
    * DMMP is able to handle dynamic network changes and group changes.
    * Latency and redundancy control are also considered in DMMP
4. Security aspects are considered in DMMP in terms of its group member 
management and AAA-related issues.

Detailed explanation could be found in the draft.

hi, UG:
     To the aspect of "service connectivity cycle", super nodes of DMMP 
are selected according to the following standard:
     Super nodes which are able to and willing to make some 
contributions to the network are likely to get better performances.

     Users don't care about exact operations. If they could get better 
services, they have no reason to reject being the super nodes.

Cheers

Jun

> Dear UG,
> 
> I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
> The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;
> 
> * Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
> in previous presentations
> 
> and
> 
> * DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
> scenarios or requirements well.
> 
> In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
> Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)
> 
> I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
> if time permits.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hi, Yangwoo.
>>
>>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you described,
>> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you can see 
>> much
>> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these area
>> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the draft.
>> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made mistake in my
>> presentation this time.)
>>
>> The targets are
>>
>> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
>> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
>> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
>> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
>> by end hosts
>>
>> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, good 
>> enough to
>> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
>>
>> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We have to 
>> spent
>> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each 
>> other.
>>
>> And my impression for DMMP are
>>
>> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity node on
>> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For me, that 
>> may
>> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
>>
>> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so complicated 
>> that
>> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by reasonable
>> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node 
>> behavior
>> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
>> multicast scheme.
>>
>> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
>>
>> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
>> -- 
>> ug
>>
>> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>>>
>>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
>>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
>>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>>>
>>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
>>> > 
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66, 
>>>
>>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
>>> > 
>>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt 
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
>>> >
>>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
>>> > Xiaoming
>>> >
>>> > John Buford wrote:
>>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
>>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda or
>>> >> another contribution you would like
>>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
>>> >>
>>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
>>> >>
>>> >> ==========================================
>>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
>>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
>>> >>
>>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>> >>
>>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>> >>
>>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
>>> >>
>>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework in
>>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and
>>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
>>> >>
>>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
>>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
>>> >>
>>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>> >>
>>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
>>> >>
>>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> SAM mailing list
>>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > SAM mailing list
>>> > SAM@irtf.org
>>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SAM mailing list
>>> SAM@irtf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam


-- 
Jun Lei
PhD Student

Address:
Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
Institut fuer Informatik
Telematics Group
Lotzestrasse 16-18
37083 Goettingen


Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78

Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de

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Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 02:28:15 +0900
From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
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Hi, Jun Lei,

 Super node approach is now success. Skype is the best example I think.
However, as nodes increase so much rapidly, there are someone who dislike
to make their nodes be a supernode. Actually, I know several who experienced
their node EVENTUALLY elected as super nodes and load increased so much
that they cannot do ordinal work any more. As protocol and behavior of skype
was kept secret, in order to stop being supernode they must stop skype program.

Recently, skype was reverse-engineered.
http://www.secdev.org/conf/skype_BHEU06.handout.pdf

Then some start fake of skype that never be a supernode.
http://www.voipwiki.com/blog/?p=16

Regarding this story, to make supernode method be successful and happy
for all, we must make some social mechanism that user appreciate to make
their machine be a supernode. Is it possible? To tell the truth, I am
pessimistic to find the way.

Do you have any idea to solve that?
--
ug

On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
> Dear Yangwoo, all:
>
>       Thank you for your comments. The slides presented in IETF66 might
> not have touched at your expections. However, the proposed DMMP has
> basically solved the following requirements:
>
> 1. Multicast capability, either one-to-many, or many-to-many
> 2. Scalability requirements: DMMP is capable of supporting thousands of
> group per session
> 3. Adaptive requirements:
>     * DMMP is able to handle dynamic network changes and group changes.
>     * Latency and redundancy control are also considered in DMMP
> 4. Security aspects are considered in DMMP in terms of its group member
> management and AAA-related issues.
>
> Detailed explanation could be found in the draft.
>
> hi, UG:
>      To the aspect of "service connectivity cycle", super nodes of DMMP
> are selected according to the following standard:
>      Super nodes which are able to and willing to make some
> contributions to the network are likely to get better performances.
>
>      Users don't care about exact operations. If they could get better
> services, they have no reason to reject being the super nodes.
>
> Cheers
>
> Jun
>
> > Dear UG,
> >
> > I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
> > The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;
> >
> > * Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
> > in previous presentations
> >
> > and
> >
> > * DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
> > scenarios or requirements well.
> >
> > In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
> > Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)
> >
> > I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
> > if time permits.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi, Yangwoo.
> >>
> >>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you described,
> >> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you can see
> >> much
> >> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these area
> >> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the draft.
> >> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made mistake in my
> >> presentation this time.)
> >>
> >> The targets are
> >>
> >> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
> >> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
> >> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
> >> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
> >> by end hosts
> >>
> >> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, good
> >> enough to
> >> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
> >>
> >> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We have to
> >> spent
> >> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each
> >> other.
> >>
> >> And my impression for DMMP are
> >>
> >> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity node on
> >> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For me, that
> >> may
> >> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
> >>
> >> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so complicated
> >> that
> >> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by reasonable
> >> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node
> >> behavior
> >> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
> >> multicast scheme.
> >>
> >> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
> >>
> >> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
> >> --
> >> ug
> >>
> >> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
> >>>
> >>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
> >>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
> >>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
> >>>
> >>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
> >>>
> >>> and
> >>>
> >>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi all,
> >>> >
> >>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
> >>> >
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
> >>>
> >>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
> >>> >
> >>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
> >>> >
> >>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
> >>> > Xiaoming
> >>> >
> >>> > John Buford wrote:
> >>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
> >>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda or
> >>> >> another contribution you would like
> >>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
> >>> >>
> >>> >> ==========================================
> >>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
> >>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework in
> >>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
> >>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
> >>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and
> >>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
> >>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> SAM mailing list
> >>> >> SAM@irtf.org
> >>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > SAM mailing list
> >>> > SAM@irtf.org
> >>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> SAM mailing list
> >>> SAM@irtf.org
> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SAM mailing list
> > SAM@irtf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>
>
> --
> Jun Lei
> PhD Student
>
> Address:
> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
> Institut fuer Informatik
> Telematics Group
> Lotzestrasse 16-18
> 37083 Goettingen
>
>
> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>
> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>
> _______________________________________________
> SAM mailing list
> SAM@irtf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>


-- 
ug

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



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Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:04:09 +0200
Organization: Informatik Institute
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Dear UG:
        Thank you for your instant comments.
        See inline.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
Cc: "Yangwoo Ko" <newcat@icu.ac.kr>; <sam@irtf.org>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66


> Hi, Jun Lei,
>
> Super node approach is now success. Skype is the best example I think.
> However, as nodes increase so much rapidly, there are someone who dislike
> to make their nodes be a supernode. Actually, I know several who 
> experienced
> their node EVENTUALLY elected as super nodes and load increased so much
> that they cannot do ordinal work any more. As protocol and behavior of 
> skype
> was kept secret, in order to stop being supernode they must stop skype 
> program.
>
> Recently, skype was reverse-engineered.
> http://www.secdev.org/conf/skype_BHEU06.handout.pdf
>
> Then some start fake of skype that never be a supernode.
> http://www.voipwiki.com/blog/?p=16
>
> Regarding this story, to make supernode method be successful and happy
> for all, we must make some social mechanism that user appreciate to make
> their machine be a supernode. Is it possible? To tell the truth, I am
> pessimistic to find the way.

Yeah, it is really a problem. DMMP has an assumption that a small number of 
users are able to and willing to act as super nodes. Otherwise, we could 
only designate some routers as super nodes. Currently, we assume that users 
would not reject being super nodes because super nodes could receive better 
services.

If any is novated, we would notify you asap.

Cheers
Jun
>
> Do you have any idea to solve that?
> --
> ug
>
> On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>> Dear Yangwoo, all:
>>
>>       Thank you for your comments. The slides presented in IETF66 might
>> not have touched at your expections. However, the proposed DMMP has
>> basically solved the following requirements:
>>
>> 1. Multicast capability, either one-to-many, or many-to-many
>> 2. Scalability requirements: DMMP is capable of supporting thousands of
>> group per session
>> 3. Adaptive requirements:
>>     * DMMP is able to handle dynamic network changes and group changes.
>>     * Latency and redundancy control are also considered in DMMP
>> 4. Security aspects are considered in DMMP in terms of its group member
>> management and AAA-related issues.
>>
>> Detailed explanation could be found in the draft.
>>
>> hi, UG:
>>      To the aspect of "service connectivity cycle", super nodes of DMMP
>> are selected according to the following standard:
>>      Super nodes which are able to and willing to make some
>> contributions to the network are likely to get better performances.
>>
>>      Users don't care about exact operations. If they could get better
>> services, they have no reason to reject being the super nodes.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Jun
>>
>> > Dear UG,
>> >
>> > I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
>> > The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;
>> >
>> > * Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
>> > in previous presentations
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > * DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
>> > scenarios or requirements well.
>> >
>> > In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
>> > Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)
>> >
>> > I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
>> > if time permits.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hi, Yangwoo.
>> >>
>> >>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you described,
>> >> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you can see
>> >> much
>> >> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these 
>> >> area
>> >> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the 
>> >> draft.
>> >> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made mistake in 
>> >> my
>> >> presentation this time.)
>> >>
>> >> The targets are
>> >>
>> >> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
>> >> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
>> >> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
>> >> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
>> >> by end hosts
>> >>
>> >> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, good
>> >> enough to
>> >> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
>> >>
>> >> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We have to
>> >> spent
>> >> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each
>> >> other.
>> >>
>> >> And my impression for DMMP are
>> >>
>> >> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity node 
>> >> on
>> >> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For me, that
>> >> may
>> >> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
>> >>
>> >> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so complicated
>> >> that
>> >> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by 
>> >> reasonable
>> >> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node
>> >> behavior
>> >> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
>> >> multicast scheme.
>> >>
>> >> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
>> >>
>> >> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
>> >> --
>> >> ug
>> >>
>> >> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>> >>>
>> >>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
>> >>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
>> >>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>> >>>
>> >>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>> >>>
>> >>> and
>> >>>
>> >>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>>
>> >>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Hi all,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
>> >>> >
>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
>> >>>
>> >>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
>> >>> >
>> >>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt
>> >>>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
>> >>> > Xiaoming
>> >>> >
>> >>> > John Buford wrote:
>> >>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
>> >>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda 
>> >>> >> or
>> >>> >> another contribution you would like
>> >>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> ==========================================
>> >>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
>> >>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework 
>> >>> >> in
>> >>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>> >>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>> >>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and
>> >>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
>> >>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> SAM mailing list
>> >>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>> >>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > SAM mailing list
>> >>> > SAM@irtf.org
>> >>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> SAM mailing list
>> >>> SAM@irtf.org
>> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > SAM mailing list
>> > SAM@irtf.org
>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jun Lei
>> PhD Student
>>
>> Address:
>> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>> Institut fuer Informatik
>> Telematics Group
>> Lotzestrasse 16-18
>> 37083 Goettingen
>>
>>
>> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>
>> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SAM mailing list
>> SAM@irtf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ug
> 



_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



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Hi Jun,

Let's remove the problem statement section
as we will have a separate ID on this topic.

I think your outline covers the area, but
there are a few papers that survey this
area in this way already.=20

Instead I am thinking we should see if we can
organize existing designs accoding to the=20
design space we anticipate needing for
a "scalable adaptive" framework.

For example, in the SAM RG charter we list
a few aspects of scalability or other
design dimensions -=20

highly dynamic group membership
limited-resource nodes and access links
operation in mobile networks
integration with QoS mechanisms
adaptation schemes which consider group-related factors, such as group =
size, number of sources, membership dynamics, sensitivity to delay, =
amount of state, state update rate, application data rate, and other =
application-specific parameters, as well as network-related factors, =
such as dynamics of topology, carrying capacity, and connectivity.

So then the top-level outline becomes:
1. Some dimensions of the SAM Design Space
2. Categorization of multicast systems
    according to the design space

We can select a small subset of the design space to start with.
Ideally these are motivated by application requirements.
As we iterate we can see whether this approach is
useful, whether some dimensions are redundant, etc.

John




-----Original Message-----
From: Jun Lei [mailto:lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de]
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:09 PM
To: John Buford
Cc: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de; fu@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
Subject: Re: survey ID (was RE: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements")


  Dear John, all:
       As promised, Xiaoming and I prepared the ToC for the Survey ID.=20
It would be to start (after an introduction, the terminology and=20
abbreviations) with briefly stating existing problems. Then a general=20
classification of non-network layer multicast solutions is proposed.
      After the *overall* description, selected proposals belonging to=20
the identified three categories (i.e. application layer multicast (ALM), =

Overlay Multicast (OM) and hybrid multicast) of multicast solutions are=20
discussed respectively.
       The evaluation metrics are presented before *summary*, in which a =

kind of summary tables against selected set of metrics could be=20
provided. Lastly, the security aspects need to considered (as required=20
in all I-Ds, but may also worth looking at issues related to MC).

       What do you feel about this ToC proposal? We would like to hear=20
your comments and suggestions before sending to the list for =
discussions.

PS: As we are engaged in a EU-project, some concerned work might be=20
closely related with this review/survey. Therefore, I am glad to=20
contribute into some contents if possible. Likely, section 4, 5 could be =

accounted into my work.

Cheers

Jun

> Jun, ok great. John
> =20
> On Jul 14, 2006 11:15 AM, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>Dear John, all:
>>
>>
>>>Jun,
>>>Please see the last slide on Next Steps
>>>in the ALM/OM survey slides.
>>>This pertains to producing a survey
>>>ID.
>>>
>>>Let's discuss on the email list
>>>an outline of such an ID that reviews
>>>existing ALM/OM/hybrid systems
>>>for use in a potential SAM
>>>framework.
>>>
>>
>>Great. Then, I would like to prepare a Table of Contents (ToC) for the
>>survey draft before next week. I hope that it will be helpful to SAM
>>survey ID.
>>
>>Best Regards
>>Jun
>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Jun Lei [mailto:lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de]
>>>Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:10 AM
>>>To: Yuji -UG- Imai
>>>Cc: sam@irtf.org
>>>Subject: Re: [SAM] Slides for "SAM requirements".
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear UG, all:
>>>Unfortunately, I was not in the ietf66 meeting as I had another
>>>meeting in Athens. Anyway, I will continue the work in SAM and
>>>all-related issues.
>>>
>>>It would be nice to get your help at any chance. I mean we could
>>>exchange our minds and contribute to SAM as we could.
>>>
>>>Best Regards
>>>
>>>Jun
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jun,
>>>>
>>>>I apologize not to see you after meeting. But if you still =
interested
>>>>in SAM and improvement requirement draft, please let us help.
>>>>
>>>>I will leave Montreal 11 AM so I just visit IETF venue only 30 min.
>>>>If you eventually see me, please let me make greeting.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>--
>>>>ug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 7/13/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi, Yuji, all:
>>>>>So glad to receive your slides.
>>>>>
>>>>>For the part of "necessities of these requirements", i.e. "the
>>>>>reason why these requirements are important", I would like to give
>>>>>my
>>>>>hands in any case. We could discuss in details after this meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>>Best Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>Jun
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi, all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here is a pdf of my presentation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.xcast.jp/samrg/SAM-requirements-IETF66-02.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Jun Lei
>>>>>PhD Student
>>>>>
>>>>>Address:
>>>>>Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>>>>>Institut fuer Informatik
>>>>>Telematics Group
>>>>>Lotzestrasse 16-18
>>>>>37083 Goettingen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>>>>>Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>>>>
>>>>>Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Jun Lei
>>PhD Student
>>
>>Address:
>>Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>>Institut fuer Informatik
>>Telematics Group
>>Lotzestrasse 16-18
>>37083 Goettingen
>>
>>
>>Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>>Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>
>>Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de


--=20
Jun Lei
PhD Student

Address:
Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
Institut fuer Informatik
Telematics Group
Lotzestrasse 16-18
37083 Goettingen


Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78

Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de


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Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 06:17:03 +0900
From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
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Hi, Jun Lei and all.

  I, in my mind, define this is categorized in "Selfishness v.s.
Fairness" problem.

  For the system, some or all must collaborate voluntary, impartially
and faithfully.
In old good days of the Internet, it could be. However, there are
several systems,
may be numerous, that break the balance intentionally. That's what I want to
point out by my slide of previous presentation in Montreal.

  It may be so broadly make impact for efficients that being out of
scope only of the
SAM-RG. But we MUST overcome this problem somehow.
--
ug

On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
> Dear UG:
>         Thank you for your instant comments.
>         See inline.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
> To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
> Cc: "Yangwoo Ko" <newcat@icu.ac.kr>; <sam@irtf.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
>
>
> > Hi, Jun Lei,
> >
> > Super node approach is now success. Skype is the best example I think.
> > However, as nodes increase so much rapidly, there are someone who dislike
> > to make their nodes be a supernode. Actually, I know several who
> > experienced
> > their node EVENTUALLY elected as super nodes and load increased so much
> > that they cannot do ordinal work any more. As protocol and behavior of
> > skype
> > was kept secret, in order to stop being supernode they must stop skype
> > program.
> >
> > Recently, skype was reverse-engineered.
> > http://www.secdev.org/conf/skype_BHEU06.handout.pdf
> >
> > Then some start fake of skype that never be a supernode.
> > http://www.voipwiki.com/blog/?p=16
> >
> > Regarding this story, to make supernode method be successful and happy
> > for all, we must make some social mechanism that user appreciate to make
> > their machine be a supernode. Is it possible? To tell the truth, I am
> > pessimistic to find the way.
>
> Yeah, it is really a problem. DMMP has an assumption that a small number of
> users are able to and willing to act as super nodes. Otherwise, we could
> only designate some routers as super nodes. Currently, we assume that users
> would not reject being super nodes because super nodes could receive better
> services.
>
> If any is novated, we would notify you asap.
>
> Cheers
> Jun
> >
> > Do you have any idea to solve that?
> > --
> > ug
> >
> > On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
> >> Dear Yangwoo, all:
> >>
> >>       Thank you for your comments. The slides presented in IETF66 might
> >> not have touched at your expections. However, the proposed DMMP has
> >> basically solved the following requirements:
> >>
> >> 1. Multicast capability, either one-to-many, or many-to-many
> >> 2. Scalability requirements: DMMP is capable of supporting thousands of
> >> group per session
> >> 3. Adaptive requirements:
> >>     * DMMP is able to handle dynamic network changes and group changes.
> >>     * Latency and redundancy control are also considered in DMMP
> >> 4. Security aspects are considered in DMMP in terms of its group member
> >> management and AAA-related issues.
> >>
> >> Detailed explanation could be found in the draft.
> >>
> >> hi, UG:
> >>      To the aspect of "service connectivity cycle", super nodes of DMMP
> >> are selected according to the following standard:
> >>      Super nodes which are able to and willing to make some
> >> contributions to the network are likely to get better performances.
> >>
> >>      Users don't care about exact operations. If they could get better
> >> services, they have no reason to reject being the super nodes.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Jun
> >>
> >> > Dear UG,
> >> >
> >> > I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
> >> > The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;
> >> >
> >> > * Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
> >> > in previous presentations
> >> >
> >> > and
> >> >
> >> > * DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
> >> > scenarios or requirements well.
> >> >
> >> > In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
> >> > Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)
> >> >
> >> > I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
> >> > if time permits.
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi, Yangwoo.
> >> >>
> >> >>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you described,
> >> >> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you can see
> >> >> much
> >> >> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these
> >> >> area
> >> >> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the
> >> >> draft.
> >> >> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made mistake in
> >> >> my
> >> >> presentation this time.)
> >> >>
> >> >> The targets are
> >> >>
> >> >> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
> >> >> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
> >> >> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
> >> >> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
> >> >> by end hosts
> >> >>
> >> >> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, good
> >> >> enough to
> >> >> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
> >> >>
> >> >> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We have to
> >> >> spent
> >> >> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each
> >> >> other.
> >> >>
> >> >> And my impression for DMMP are
> >> >>
> >> >> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity node
> >> >> on
> >> >> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For me, that
> >> >> may
> >> >> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
> >> >>
> >> >> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so complicated
> >> >> that
> >> >> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by
> >> >> reasonable
> >> >> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node
> >> >> behavior
> >> >> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
> >> >> multicast scheme.
> >> >>
> >> >> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
> >> >>
> >> >> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
> >> >> --
> >> >> ug
> >> >>
> >> >> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
> >> >>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
> >> >>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
> >> >>>
> >> >>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
> >> >>>
> >> >>> and
> >> >>>
> >> >>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Regards
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Hi all,
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt
> >> >>>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
> >> >>> > Xiaoming
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > John Buford wrote:
> >> >>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
> >> >>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the agenda
> >> >>> >> or
> >> >>> >> another contribution you would like
> >> >>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> ==========================================
> >> >>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
> >> >>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      Framework
> >> >>> >> in
> >> >>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
> >> >>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
> >> >>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) and
> >> >>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. Fu)
> >> >>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> SAM mailing list
> >> >>> >> SAM@irtf.org
> >> >>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>> > SAM mailing list
> >> >>> > SAM@irtf.org
> >> >>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> SAM mailing list
> >> >>> SAM@irtf.org
> >> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > SAM mailing list
> >> > SAM@irtf.org
> >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jun Lei
> >> PhD Student
> >>
> >> Address:
> >> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
> >> Institut fuer Informatik
> >> Telematics Group
> >> Lotzestrasse 16-18
> >> 37083 Goettingen
> >>
> >>
> >> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
> >> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
> >>
> >> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> SAM mailing list
> >> SAM@irtf.org
> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ug
> >
>
>
>


-- 
ug

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Though there have been several proposals to overcome selfishness
in peer networks (especially in ad hoc routing and p2p area), I
have not yet been convinced that they are really enough. I do not
think that overcoming this should be one of the main goals of SAM
RG, it worths considering as part of design constraints.

In addition to this I want to point out that UG's "Selfishness
vs. Fairness" may be somewhat misleading. I admit that selfishness
may yield unfairness. But the better way to understand and tackle
this issue is how to yield fairness from selfish reactions of
participants. For example, one of typical questions is how to make
the incentive for serving  as a supernode big enough so that
equilibrium can be obtained as soon as possible.

Regards

Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
> 
> Hi, Jun Lei and all.
> 
>  I, in my mind, define this is categorized in "Selfishness v.s.
> Fairness" problem.
> 
>  For the system, some or all must collaborate voluntary, impartially
> and faithfully.
> In old good days of the Internet, it could be. However, there are
> several systems,
> may be numerous, that break the balance intentionally. That's what I 
> want to
> point out by my slide of previous presentation in Montreal.
> 
>  It may be so broadly make impact for efficients that being out of
> scope only of the
> SAM-RG. But we MUST overcome this problem somehow.
> -- 
> ug
> 
> On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>> Dear UG:
>>         Thank you for your instant comments.
>>         See inline.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
>> To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
>> Cc: "Yangwoo Ko" <newcat@icu.ac.kr>; <sam@irtf.org>
>> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
>>
>>
>> > Hi, Jun Lei,
>> >
>> > Super node approach is now success. Skype is the best example I think.
>> > However, as nodes increase so much rapidly, there are someone who 
>> dislike
>> > to make their nodes be a supernode. Actually, I know several who
>> > experienced
>> > their node EVENTUALLY elected as super nodes and load increased so much
>> > that they cannot do ordinal work any more. As protocol and behavior of
>> > skype
>> > was kept secret, in order to stop being supernode they must stop skype
>> > program.
>> >
>> > Recently, skype was reverse-engineered.
>> > http://www.secdev.org/conf/skype_BHEU06.handout.pdf
>> >
>> > Then some start fake of skype that never be a supernode.
>> > http://www.voipwiki.com/blog/?p=16
>> >
>> > Regarding this story, to make supernode method be successful and happy
>> > for all, we must make some social mechanism that user appreciate to 
>> make
>> > their machine be a supernode. Is it possible? To tell the truth, I am
>> > pessimistic to find the way.
>>
>> Yeah, it is really a problem. DMMP has an assumption that a small 
>> number of
>> users are able to and willing to act as super nodes. Otherwise, we could
>> only designate some routers as super nodes. Currently, we assume that 
>> users
>> would not reject being super nodes because super nodes could receive 
>> better
>> services.
>>
>> If any is novated, we would notify you asap.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jun
>> >
>> > Do you have any idea to solve that?
>> > --
>> > ug
>> >
>> > On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>> >> Dear Yangwoo, all:
>> >>
>> >>       Thank you for your comments. The slides presented in IETF66 
>> might
>> >> not have touched at your expections. However, the proposed DMMP has
>> >> basically solved the following requirements:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Multicast capability, either one-to-many, or many-to-many
>> >> 2. Scalability requirements: DMMP is capable of supporting 
>> thousands of
>> >> group per session
>> >> 3. Adaptive requirements:
>> >>     * DMMP is able to handle dynamic network changes and group 
>> changes.
>> >>     * Latency and redundancy control are also considered in DMMP
>> >> 4. Security aspects are considered in DMMP in terms of its group 
>> member
>> >> management and AAA-related issues.
>> >>
>> >> Detailed explanation could be found in the draft.
>> >>
>> >> hi, UG:
>> >>      To the aspect of "service connectivity cycle", super nodes of 
>> DMMP
>> >> are selected according to the following standard:
>> >>      Super nodes which are able to and willing to make some
>> >> contributions to the network are likely to get better performances.
>> >>
>> >>      Users don't care about exact operations. If they could get better
>> >> services, they have no reason to reject being the super nodes.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Jun
>> >>
>> >> > Dear UG,
>> >> >
>> >> > I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
>> >> > The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;
>> >> >
>> >> > * Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
>> >> > in previous presentations
>> >> >
>> >> > and
>> >> >
>> >> > * DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
>> >> > scenarios or requirements well.
>> >> >
>> >> > In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
>> >> > Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)
>> >> >
>> >> > I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
>> >> > if time permits.
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi, Yangwoo.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you 
>> described,
>> >> >> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you 
>> can see
>> >> >> much
>> >> >> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why these
>> >> >> area
>> >> >> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the
>> >> >> draft.
>> >> >> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made 
>> mistake in
>> >> >> my
>> >> >> presentation this time.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The targets are
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing 
>> both
>> >> >> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
>> >> >> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any 
>> predetermined
>> >> >> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely 
>> constructed
>> >> >> by end hosts
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, 
>> good
>> >> >> enough to
>> >> >> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We 
>> have to
>> >> >> spent
>> >> >> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea each
>> >> >> other.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And my impression for DMMP are
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high capacity 
>> node
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For 
>> me, that
>> >> >> may
>> >> >> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so 
>> complicated
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by
>> >> >> reasonable
>> >> >> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node
>> >> >> behavior
>> >> >> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
>> >> >> multicast scheme.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> ug
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what 
>> problem
>> >> >>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one 
>> size fits
>> >> >>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Regards
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Hi all,
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> 
>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt 
>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
>> >> >>> > Xiaoming
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > John Buford wrote:
>> >> >>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
>> >> >>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the 
>> agenda
>> >> >>> >> or
>> >> >>> >> another contribution you would like
>> >> >>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> ==========================================
>> >> >>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
>> >> >>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      
>> Framework
>> >> >>> >> in
>> >> >>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>> >> >>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>> >> >>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid (GIG) 
>> and
>> >> >>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol (X. 
>> Fu)
>> >> >>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. 
>> Mineweaser)
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> SAM mailing list
>> >> >>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>> >> >>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > SAM mailing list
>> >> >>> > SAM@irtf.org
>> >> >>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> SAM mailing list
>> >> >>> SAM@irtf.org
>> >> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > SAM mailing list
>> >> > SAM@irtf.org
>> >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Jun Lei
>> >> PhD Student
>> >>
>> >> Address:
>> >> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>> >> Institut fuer Informatik
>> >> Telematics Group
>> >> Lotzestrasse 16-18
>> >> 37083 Goettingen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>> >> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>> >>
>> >> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> SAM mailing list
>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ug
>> >
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
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Hi, Yangwoo,

Yangwoo Ko wrote:
> In addition to this I want to point out that UG's "Selfishness
> vs. Fairness" may be somewhat misleading.

Exactly. In a sense, TCP algorithm behave selfish but achieve fairness.
"Selfish routing" presented ad-hoc meeting in IETF65 conclude in a
certain environment, network organizer keep network not crowded with
clients behave selfish.

How to expressed this problem? Good phrase is needed.
--
ug

> I admit that selfishness
> may yield unfairness. But the better way to understand and tackle
> this issue is how to yield fairness from selfish reactions of
> participants. For example, one of typical questions is how to make
> the incentive for serving  as a supernode big enough so that
> equilibrium can be obtained as soon as possible.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Jun Lei and all.
>>
>>  I, in my mind, define this is categorized in "Selfishness v.s.
>> Fairness" problem.
>>
>>  For the system, some or all must collaborate voluntary, impartially
>> and faithfully.
>> In old good days of the Internet, it could be. However, there are
>> several systems,
>> may be numerous, that break the balance intentionally. That's what I 
>> want to
>> point out by my slide of previous presentation in Montreal.
>>
>>  It may be so broadly make impact for efficients that being out of
>> scope only of the
>> SAM-RG. But we MUST overcome this problem somehow.
>> -- 
>> ug
>>
>> On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>>> Dear UG:
>>>         Thank you for your instant comments.
>>>         See inline.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
>>> To: "Jun Lei" <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de>
>>> Cc: "Yangwoo Ko" <newcat@icu.ac.kr>; <sam@irtf.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hi, Jun Lei,
>>> >
>>> > Super node approach is now success. Skype is the best example I think.
>>> > However, as nodes increase so much rapidly, there are someone who 
>>> dislike
>>> > to make their nodes be a supernode. Actually, I know several who
>>> > experienced
>>> > their node EVENTUALLY elected as super nodes and load increased so 
>>> much
>>> > that they cannot do ordinal work any more. As protocol and behavior of
>>> > skype
>>> > was kept secret, in order to stop being supernode they must stop skype
>>> > program.
>>> >
>>> > Recently, skype was reverse-engineered.
>>> > http://www.secdev.org/conf/skype_BHEU06.handout.pdf
>>> >
>>> > Then some start fake of skype that never be a supernode.
>>> > http://www.voipwiki.com/blog/?p=16
>>> >
>>> > Regarding this story, to make supernode method be successful and happy
>>> > for all, we must make some social mechanism that user appreciate to 
>>> make
>>> > their machine be a supernode. Is it possible? To tell the truth, I am
>>> > pessimistic to find the way.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it is really a problem. DMMP has an assumption that a small 
>>> number of
>>> users are able to and willing to act as super nodes. Otherwise, we could
>>> only designate some routers as super nodes. Currently, we assume that 
>>> users
>>> would not reject being super nodes because super nodes could receive 
>>> better
>>> services.
>>>
>>> If any is novated, we would notify you asap.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Jun
>>> >
>>> > Do you have any idea to solve that?
>>> > --
>>> > ug
>>> >
>>> > On 7/18/06, Jun Lei <lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>>> >> Dear Yangwoo, all:
>>> >>
>>> >>       Thank you for your comments. The slides presented in IETF66 
>>> might
>>> >> not have touched at your expections. However, the proposed DMMP has
>>> >> basically solved the following requirements:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. Multicast capability, either one-to-many, or many-to-many
>>> >> 2. Scalability requirements: DMMP is capable of supporting 
>>> thousands of
>>> >> group per session
>>> >> 3. Adaptive requirements:
>>> >>     * DMMP is able to handle dynamic network changes and group 
>>> changes.
>>> >>     * Latency and redundancy control are also considered in DMMP
>>> >> 4. Security aspects are considered in DMMP in terms of its group 
>>> member
>>> >> management and AAA-related issues.
>>> >>
>>> >> Detailed explanation could be found in the draft.
>>> >>
>>> >> hi, UG:
>>> >>      To the aspect of "service connectivity cycle", super nodes of 
>>> DMMP
>>> >> are selected according to the following standard:
>>> >>      Super nodes which are able to and willing to make some
>>> >> contributions to the network are likely to get better performances.
>>> >>
>>> >>      Users don't care about exact operations. If they could get 
>>> better
>>> >> services, they have no reason to reject being the super nodes.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers
>>> >>
>>> >> Jun
>>> >>
>>> >> > Dear UG,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I also presumed that their draft includes such an information.
>>> >> > The issue that I wanted to point out in the previous mail was;
>>> >> >
>>> >> > * Application scenarios and requirements are well presented
>>> >> > in previous presentations
>>> >> >
>>> >> > and
>>> >> >
>>> >> > * DMMP is presented in a way how it satisfies one (or more)
>>> >> > scenarios or requirements well.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > In that sense, today's session was somewhat hard to follow up.
>>> >> > Anyway it was a really really good start though. :-)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I will send more detailed comments on DMMP and others later
>>> >> > if time permits.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Regards
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Hi, Yangwoo.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>  In his presentation, he could not emphasized the point you 
>>> described,
>>> >> >> but reading Motivation slide (Page 4) and Internet Draft, you 
>>> can see
>>> >> >> much
>>> >> >> more detailed explanation the target he want to solve and why 
>>> these
>>> >> >> area
>>> >> >> cannot be solved by any other ASM, OM scheme at tirst part of the
>>> >> >> draft.
>>> >> >> (20 minutes is tooshort to explain overall infos.... I made 
>>> mistake in
>>> >> >> my
>>> >> >> presentation this time.)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The targets are
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing 
>>> both
>>> >> >> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
>>> >> >> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any 
>>> predetermined
>>> >> >> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely 
>>> constructed
>>> >> >> by end hosts
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> That seems not enough if they start to make system but, for me, 
>>> good
>>> >> >> enough to
>>> >> >> start to try novel approach of SAM and investigation.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> So generally speaking, IRTF real meeting is too much short. We 
>>> have to
>>> >> >> spent
>>> >> >> more to read and write materials that we can exchange the idea 
>>> each
>>> >> >> other.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> And my impression for DMMP are
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> - From operatinal view, who volunteerly settle the high 
>>> capacity node
>>> >> >> on
>>> >> >> good point of the network and let other use it for DMMP?  For 
>>> me, that
>>> >> >> may
>>> >> >> become obstacle for "service connectivity cycle".
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> - From developper and poerator's view, the system looks so 
>>> complicated
>>> >> >> that
>>> >> >> logic the sytem has and whole DMMP network is not developed by
>>> >> >> reasonable
>>> >> >> cost. Especially, distributed debugging of supernode and end node
>>> >> >> behavior
>>> >> >> is quite difficult, it is sama as experienced in deploying group
>>> >> >> multicast scheme.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> But analysis of existing ALM, OM and DMMP scheme is valuable.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> So, I want others take a look of their draft.
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> ug
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On 7/14/06, Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what 
>>> problem
>>> >> >>> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one 
>>> size fits
>>> >> >>> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> and
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Regards
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Xiaoming Fu wrote:
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Hi all,
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Before John uploads the presentation slides in
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> 
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=66, 
>>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> > a copy for draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt slides is available in
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> 
>>> http://user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de/~fu/omcast/draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00_IETF66.ppt 
>>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Your suggestions and comments are very appreciated.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Look forward to seeing you soon.
>>> >> >>> > Xiaoming
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > John Buford wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> Here is our first pass at a meeting agenda
>>> >> >>> >> for the meeting at IETF 66. If you have suggestions on the 
>>> agenda
>>> >> >>> >> or
>>> >> >>> >> another contribution you would like
>>> >> >>> >> to present, please send to mail list or chairs.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaster
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> ==========================================
>>> >> >>> >> Agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF-66
>>> >> >>> >> Thursday July 13, 2006 9am - 11:30pm
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 0:00 Welcome (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 0:05 Agenda bash (J. Buford, J. Mineweaser)
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 0:10 Summary of ALM, OM, and Hybrid systems (J. Buford)
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 0:40 Requirements for Scalable Adaptive Multicast      
>>> Framework
>>> >> >>> >> in
>>> >> >>> >> Non-GIG Networks (Y. Imai, N.Kawaguchi)
>>> >> >>> >>      draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-00.txt
>>> >> >>> >>       1:20 Introduction to the Global Information Grid 
>>> (GIG) and
>>> >> >>> >> key GIG challenges (J. Mineweaser)
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 1:50 DMMP: Dynamic Mesh-based Overlay Multicast Protocol 
>>> (X. Fu)
>>> >> >>> >>     draft-lei-samrg-dmmp-00.txt
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 2:10 SAMRG Work Plan and Meeting Plan (J. Buford, J. 
>>> Mineweaser)
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 2:20 Open discussion
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> 2:30 Close of meeting
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> SAM mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>>> >> >>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> > SAM mailing list
>>> >> >>> > SAM@irtf.org
>>> >> >>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> SAM mailing list
>>> >> >>> SAM@irtf.org
>>> >> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> > SAM mailing list
>>> >> > SAM@irtf.org
>>> >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Jun Lei
>>> >> PhD Student
>>> >>
>>> >> Address:
>>> >> Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen
>>> >> Institut fuer Informatik
>>> >> Telematics Group
>>> >> Lotzestrasse 16-18
>>> >> 37083 Goettingen
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03
>>> >> Tel: +49 (551) 39-1 35 78
>>> >>
>>> >> Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> SAM mailing list
>>> >> SAM@irtf.org
>>> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > ug
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 


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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Tue Jul 18 00:57:27 2006
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Yuji IMAI wrote:
> Hi, Yangwoo,
> 
> Yangwoo Ko wrote:
>> In addition to this I want to point out that UG's "Selfishness
>> vs. Fairness" may be somewhat misleading.
> 
> Exactly. In a sense, TCP algorithm behave selfish but achieve fairness.

Yes and No.

TCP achieves fairness so that multiple TCP streams can obtain
roughly same bandwidth. However seen at higher level, an application
can obtain more bandwidth by having multiple TCP streams. In that
sense, we need to consider in what level we are going to achieve
fairness.

> "Selfish routing" presented ad-hoc meeting in IETF65 conclude in a
> certain environment, network organizer keep network not crowded with
> clients behave selfish.
> 
> How to expressed this problem? Good phrase is needed.

I want to leave terminology issue to English natives. My
suggestion is that just use "fairness" so that we can open
far more possibilities for cases and solutions.

Regards

> --
> ug
> 
>> I admit that selfishness
>> may yield unfairness. But the better way to understand and tackle
>> this issue is how to yield fairness from selfish reactions of
>> participants. For example, one of typical questions is how to make
>> the incentive for serving  as a supernode big enough so that
>> equilibrium can be obtained as soon as possible.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>>> Hi, Jun Lei and all.
>>>
>>>  I, in my mind, define this is categorized in "Selfishness v.s.
>>> Fairness" problem.
>>>
>>>  For the system, some or all must collaborate voluntary, impartially
>>> and faithfully.
>>> In old good days of the Internet, it could be. However, there are
>>> several systems,
>>> may be numerous, that break the balance intentionally. That's what I 
>>> want to
>>> point out by my slide of previous presentation in Montreal.
>>>
>>>  It may be so broadly make impact for efficients that being out of
>>> scope only of the
>>> SAM-RG. But we MUST overcome this problem somehow.
>>> -- 
>>> ug
>>>

(snip)

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



From sam-bounces@irtf.org Tue Jul 18 01:37:43 2006
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From: Eiichi Muramoto <muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:37:05 +0900
To: Yangwoo Ko <newcat@icu.ac.kr>
Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
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Hello, All

Although I could not catch up with discussion,
I think the word "fairness" is important to make us think varous things.

TCP(TFRC) streams can obtain more bandwidth, when it is relayed.
(A-B-C is better than A-C. B is tcp relay. I think if an application 
 on B receive the stream, it is fare.)

I think the consensus, "what is fare" might be one of the goal of SAM-RG activity,
after we should define and share problems.

Regards,
Eiichi Muramoto.

Yangwoo Ko wrote:
>
>Yuji IMAI wrote:
>> Hi, Yangwoo,
>> 
>> Yangwoo Ko wrote:
>>> In addition to this I want to point out that UG's "Selfishness
>>> vs. Fairness" may be somewhat misleading.
>> 
>> Exactly. In a sense, TCP algorithm behave selfish but achieve fairness.
>
>Yes and No.
>
>TCP achieves fairness so that multiple TCP streams can obtain
>roughly same bandwidth. However seen at higher level, an application
>can obtain more bandwidth by having multiple TCP streams. In that
>sense, we need to consider in what level we are going to achieve
>fairness.
>
>> "Selfish routing" presented ad-hoc meeting in IETF65 conclude in a
>> certain environment, network organizer keep network not crowded with
>> clients behave selfish.
>> 
>> How to expressed this problem? Good phrase is needed.
>
>I want to leave terminology issue to English natives. My
>suggestion is that just use "fairness" so that we can open
>far more possibilities for cases and solutions.
>
>Regards
>
>> --
>> ug
>> 
>>> I admit that selfishness
>>> may yield unfairness. But the better way to understand and tackle
>>> this issue is how to yield fairness from selfish reactions of
>>> participants. For example, one of typical questions is how to make
>>> the incentive for serving  as a supernode big enough so that
>>> equilibrium can be obtained as soon as possible.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>>>> Hi, Jun Lei and all.
>>>>
>>>>  I, in my mind, define this is categorized in "Selfishness v.s.
>>>> Fairness" problem.
>>>>
>>>>  For the system, some or all must collaborate voluntary, impartially
>>>> and faithfully.
>>>> In old good days of the Internet, it could be. However, there are
>>>> several systems,
>>>> may be numerous, that break the balance intentionally. That's what I 
>>>> want to
>>>> point out by my slide of previous presentation in Montreal.
>>>>
>>>>  It may be so broadly make impact for efficients that being out of
>>>> scope only of the
>>>> SAM-RG. But we MUST overcome this problem somehow.
>>>> -- 
>>>> ug
>>>>
>
>(snip)
>
>_______________________________________________
>SAM mailing list
>SAM@irtf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam

-----
muramoto.eiichi@jp.panasonic.com

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
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Yes, Yangwoo. You are sharp.

Yangwoo Ko wrote:
>> Exactly. In a sense, TCP algorithm behave selfish but achieve fairness.
> 
> Yes and No.
> 
> TCP achieves fairness so that multiple TCP streams can obtain
> roughly same bandwidth. However seen at higher level, an application
> can obtain more bandwidth by having multiple TCP streams. In that
> sense, we need to consider in what level we are going to achieve
> fairness.

If we would be able to have SAM framework in future, that must have
abstraction like TCP virtual circuit. In addition, we man have to define
the guideline for application to behave good. Some may say it not enough
because someone in the world break the rule.

I don't have any idea for this result. But fortunately, we still be in
the day of http/tcp without catastrophic bandwidth crash.

>> "Selfish routing" presented ad-hoc meeting in IETF65 conclude in a
>> certain environment, network organizer keep network not crowded with
>> clients behave selfish.
>>
>> How to expressed this problem? Good phrase is needed.
> 
> I want to leave terminology issue to English natives. My
> suggestion is that just use "fairness" so that we can open
> far more possibilities for cases and solutions.

Agree.
--
ug

> Regards
> 
>> -- 
>> ug
>>
>>> I admit that selfishness
>>> may yield unfairness. But the better way to understand and tackle
>>> this issue is how to yield fairness from selfish reactions of
>>> participants. For example, one of typical questions is how to make
>>> the incentive for serving  as a supernode big enough so that
>>> equilibrium can be obtained as soon as possible.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Yuji -UG- Imai wrote:
>>>> Hi, Jun Lei and all.
>>>>
>>>>  I, in my mind, define this is categorized in "Selfishness v.s.
>>>> Fairness" problem.
>>>>
>>>>  For the system, some or all must collaborate voluntary, impartially
>>>> and faithfully.
>>>> In old good days of the Internet, it could be. However, there are
>>>> several systems,
>>>> may be numerous, that break the balance intentionally. That's what I 
>>>> want to
>>>> point out by my slide of previous presentation in Montreal.
>>>>
>>>>  It may be so broadly make impact for efficients that being out of
>>>> scope only of the
>>>> SAM-RG. But we MUST overcome this problem somehow.
>>>> -- 
>>>> ug
>>>>
> 
> (snip)


_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam



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Hi,

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Yangwoo Ko [mailto:newcat@icu.ac.kr]=20
> Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Juli 2006 03:19
> An: sam@irtf.org
> Betreff: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
>=20
> Dear Xiaoming Fu,
>=20
> As already pointed out in the session, it was not clear what problem
> your scheme is trying to solve. As we know, there is no one size fits
> all solutions. Then, we need to sort out;
>=20
> what are the list of problems we want to tackle
>=20
> and
>=20
> what are proper approaches to each of these problems.
>=20
> Regards
Well, I think thats one of the most important topics which needs to be=20
covered first! Currently it seems to be unclear which problem is going
to be addressed by SAM and why current solutions can't be used. What is
the motivation to use Application Layer Multicast or Overlay Multicast
mechanisms instead of using native IP-Multicast (which is already=20
available for years and deployed by more and more ISPs)? What are the=20
advantages and disadvantages, what kind of applications are expected to
deploy ALM/OM, where are the gaps, etc.

  Regards

    Nic

--
Dipl. Inf. Nicolai Leymann
=20
T-Systems Enterprise Services
Senior Expert, IP-Technologies
Systems Integration
Technologiezentrum
Engineering Networks, Products & Services=20
Packet based Carrier Transport Networks=20
Goslarer Ufer 35, D- 10589 Berlin=20
Tel +49 30 3497-3570=20
Fax +49 30 3497-3571=20
Mobile +49 170 2275345
E-Mail: nicolai.leymann@t-systems.com
Internet: http://www.t-systems.com

_______________________________________________
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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Wed Jul 19 07:13:33 2006
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From: "Leymann, Nicolai" <Nicolai.Leymann@t-systems.com>
To: ug@xcast.jp,
    newcat@icu.ac.kr
Subject: AW: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:13:23 +0200
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Hi,

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Yuji -UG- Imai [mailto:ug@xcast.jp]=20
> Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Juli 2006 06:36
> An: Yangwoo Ko
> Cc: sam@irtf.org
> Betreff: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66
>=20
[...]
>=20
> The targets are
>=20
> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely =
constructed
> by end hosts
>
The question is what kind of real-time media streaming is referred to.
This is important if we look on requirements regarding bandwidth,=20
number of simultaneous users, channel switching times etc.=20
There are relatively static setups, e.g. where a huge number of users =
is
watching a single channel with a relatively small bandwidth. This kind
of scenario is typically in use during single events (like LiveAid). =
There
are also a number of companies working in this area: PPLive or =
Cybersky-TV.

On the other hand a growing number of ISPs and Content Providers is =
currently
starting triple play services. Many of IPTV services require a =
IP-Multicast
based infrastructure to support hundreds of LiveTV channels delivered =
to=20
100.000s of users with channel switching times less than a second.

It may be also helpful to have a look on the mboned WG. There is =
currently
a survey going on which collects information about Multicast =
requirements
for Triple Play and LiveTV.

  regards

    Nic

--
Dipl. Inf. Nicolai Leymann
=20
T-Systems Enterprise Services
Senior Expert, IP-Technologies
Systems Integration
Technologiezentrum
Engineering Networks, Products & Services=20
Packet based Carrier Transport Networks=20
Goslarer Ufer 35, D- 10589 Berlin=20
Tel +49 30 3497-3570=20
Fax +49 30 3497-3571=20
Mobile +49 170 2275345
E-Mail: nicolai.leymann@t-systems.com
Internet: http://www.t-systems.com
=20

_______________________________________________
SAM mailing list
SAM@irtf.org
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Leymann, Nicolai wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>> -----Urspr黱gliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Yuji -UG- Imai [mailto:ug@xcast.jp] 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Juli 2006 06:36
>> An: Yangwoo Ko
>> Cc: sam@irtf.org
>> Betreff: Re: [SAM] preliminary agenda for SAM RG meeting at IETF 66

Funny to see mail headers in Germany (right?) :-)

>>
> [...]
>> The targets are
>>
>> - To support real-time media streaming applications, optimizing both
>> the available bandwidth and the delay for group members
>> - To support large-scale groups without relying on any predetermined
>> intermediate nodes, namely the overlay multicast is solely constructed
>> by end hosts
>>
> The question is what kind of real-time media streaming is referred to.
> This is important if we look on requirements regarding bandwidth, 
> number of simultaneous users, channel switching times etc. 
> There are relatively static setups, e.g. where a huge number of users is
> watching a single channel with a relatively small bandwidth. This kind
> of scenario is typically in use during single events (like LiveAid). There
> are also a number of companies working in this area: PPLive or Cybersky-TV.
> 
> On the other hand a growing number of ISPs and Content Providers is currently
> starting triple play services. Many of IPTV services require a IP-Multicast
> based infrastructure to support hundreds of LiveTV channels delivered to 
> 100.000s of users with channel switching times less than a second.
> 
> It may be also helpful to have a look on the mboned WG. There is currently
> a survey going on which collects information about Multicast requirements
> for Triple Play and LiveTV.

Probably this one:

http://www.multicasttech.com/survey/MBoneD_Survey_v_1_5.txt

> 
>   regards
> 
>     Nic
> 
> --
> Dipl. Inf. Nicolai Leymann
>  
> T-Systems Enterprise Services
> Senior Expert, IP-Technologies
> Systems Integration
> Technologiezentrum
> Engineering Networks, Products & Services 
> Packet based Carrier Transport Networks 
> Goslarer Ufer 35, D- 10589 Berlin 
> Tel +49 30 3497-3570 
> Fax +49 30 3497-3571 
> Mobile +49 170 2275345
> E-Mail: nicolai.leymann@t-systems.com
> Internet: http://www.t-systems.com
>  
> 
> 


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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Wed Jul 19 18:47:19 2006
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 07:46:48 +0900
From: "Yuji -UG- Imai" <ug@xcast.jp>
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Subject: [SAM] Planned changes for XCAST6 version 2
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------=_Part_61651_3725805.1153349208440
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Hi, all.

  Here I attach the slides "XCAST6 v2 changes".

 As draft-ooms-xcast-basic-spec-09.txt have worked stably
for 6 years, we believe we can prove the concept of eXplicit
Multi-Unicast. On the other hands, we receive feedback
especially for semi-permeable tunnel part of IPv6 version.

So, we decide it is good time to tune up the protocol and
re-start novel experiments on it.

We appreciate you would take a look and comment.

Thank you.
-- 
ug

------=_Part_61651_3725805.1153349208440
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From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jul 20 00:17:47 2006
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Subject: Re: [SAM] what's the difference between Application-layer multicast
	and	overlay multicast?
References: <38adbecd0607191546h1e3a4737r23b132061d3075e9@mail.gmail.com>
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http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/SAMRG-0.pdf

Forest.Lin wrote:
> Hi, everyone,
>  
>     I have a basic question as the subject. Could you give me some 
> correct conceptions? thxs!
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Forest.Lin
> 2006-07-20
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *发件人：* Yuji -UG- Imai
> *发送时间：* 2006-07-20 06:47:23
> *收件人：* xcast@wide.ad.jp; xcast@fan.club.uec.ac.jp; xcast@ai3.net; 
> sam@irtf.org
> *抄送：*
> *主题：* [SAM] Planned changes for XCAST6 version 2
>  
> Hi,  all.
>  
>    Here  I  attach  the  slides  "XCAST6  v2  changes".
>  
>  As  draft-ooms-xcast-basic-spec-09.txt  have  worked  stably
> for  6  years,  we  believe  we  can  prove  the  concept  of  eXplicit
> Multi-Unicast.  On  the  other  hands,  we  receive  feedback
> especially  for  semi-permeable  tunnel  part  of  IPv6  version.
>  
> So,  we  decide  it  is  good  time  to  tune  up  the  protocol  and
> re-start  novel  experiments  on  it.
>  
> We  appreciate  you  would  take  a  look  and  comment.
>  
> Thank  you.
> --  
> ug
>  
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