From sam-bounces@irtf.org Wed Jan 02 13:53:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA8im-00033E-Az; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:53:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA8ik-00031i-5N for sam@irtf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:53:42 -0500 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA8ij-0007eb-Um for sam@irtf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:53:42 -0500 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so1666807wxd.7 for ; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:53:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=eBBLhcc6Kwac8JGkzqOfpa73w3dtCucnqENKe0k3qUE=; b=dyhEyYS566Rr+sFin6Vvdth1qP2sHau7kYYanu3Rm+DVFkr6yIhcKj2PnC/WHcVgEK805D1Mw6jqRxXqwwseF8RICue7HesRJkexPN1uVktd8D2mBAkfhs6Eix9aize6vw8xvAJhQRsfe+tBvp6QQ7ZHsoJeKPq8H7EI/mtKIVA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=Q3oXy9ZpVWeKjdFhSDac1b5lMESSIJ4rbcL2KYjqKlC4ihIWgaeTZA+Av4NjqhXwrPPa+H6jNr2FQm/0jR3sxsmnTq8tx8YeAq2pobGIkjLAr7Du7zIIJKSMSoeAfIDViL4dPaX2uUeW7qhEyTKn2hET6n431y5h5gZEewygpEk= Received: by 10.142.76.4 with SMTP id y4mr1885521wfa.110.1199300020518; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.2.5 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:53:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:53:40 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: sam@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fe2463aefc81dd19 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: Subject: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1792823411==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============1792823411== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39379_8424919.1199300020510" ------=_Part_39379_8424919.1199300020510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We plan to hold a meeting of the SAM RG at IETF-71 in Philadelphia. When the exact date of the meeting is available, we will post to the mail list. Please post requests for agenda items to the mail list. Thank you, John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaser ------=_Part_39379_8424919.1199300020510 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
We plan to hold a meeting of the SAM RG at IETF-71 in Philadelphia.
 
When the exact date of the meeting is available, we will post to the mail list.
 
Please post requests for agenda items to the mail list.
 
Thank you,
 
John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaser
------=_Part_39379_8424919.1199300020510-- --===============1792823411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============1792823411==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 02:35:02 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAKbV-0007QO-8t; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 02:35:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAKbU-0007QJ-3K for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 02:35:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp ([133.183.100.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAKbS-0002AG-36 for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 02:35:00 -0500 Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kc-maile13) with ESMTP id m037YrkM004832; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:34:53 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id m037YrV20141; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:34:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from epochmail.jp.panasonic.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/expos) with ESMTP id m037YsQ14636; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:34:54 +0900 (JST) Received: by epochmail.jp.panasonic.com (8.12.11.20060308/3.7W/soml22) id m037YqZf010812; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:34:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from donau.mrit.mei.co.jp by soml22.jp.panasonic.com (8.12.11.20060308/3.7W) with ESMTP id m037YfRO010749; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:34:41 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:34:45 +0900 From: Eiichi Muramoto To: buford@samrg.org Subject: Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG In-Reply-To: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: <20080103163207.B1D3.MURAMOTO.EIICHI@jp.panasonic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.27 [ja] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: sam@irtf.org, xcast@wide.ad.jp X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org John-san We would like to have presentation below at the BoF of SAM in IETF71 - Tutorial of SAM-TK ( by Nobuo Kawaguchi of Nagoya Univ.) - ALM API for Topology Management and Network Layers Transparent Multimedia Streaming (by Lim Boon Ping of Panasonic Kuala Lumpur Lab) - XCAST 1.0 and 2.0 ( by Yuji -UG- Imai of WIDE ) I think 15 min for each is enough. Best Regards, Eiichi Muramoto On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:53:40 -0500 "John Buford" wrote: > We plan to hold a meeting of the SAM RG at IETF-71 in Philadelphia. > > When the exact date of the meeting is available, we will post to the mail > list. > > Please post requests for agenda items to the mail list. > > Thank you, > > John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaser -- Eiichi Muramoto _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 08:40:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAQJT-0001zY-NK; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:40:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAQJT-0001zS-1f for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:40:47 -0500 Received: from m5-141.126.com ([202.108.5.141]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAQJP-0007u8-O4 for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:40:47 -0500 Received: from forestlin (unknown [202.38.254.137]) by smtp4 (Coremail) with SMTP id wKjSjbBrdQG05XxHEOX7EA==.62874S4; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:40:39 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:43:04 +0800 From: "Forest.Lin" To: "Eiichi Muramoto" References: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com>, <20080103163207.B1D3.MURAMOTO.EIICHI@jp.panasonic.com> Subject: Re: Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG Message-ID: <200801032142407644581@126.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 10, 201, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1U3Yxn0WfASr-VFAUDIcSsGvfJTRUUU178awVAC0I8067AKIx kG4x80FVAqrcv_JFW8GrWUM2kK6-nvg3svkS406c8GOVWUur48GF4ln4vEF2I2jVCv07xq 44I27xCjj4IE548m6r1fGr4UAwAawVAC0I806x82nxCjj4IE548m6r1fGr48WwAawVAC0I 806sxIjc0FFI0j4x80FVAqrcv_JFW8Gr1xM7C26xCjj4IEI4klw4CSwwAawVAC0I8064x0 4xCFI7km07C26c8GOVWUur48Jw4ln4vEF2I2jVCF77xC84AF6c8GOVWUur48XFyln4vEF2 I2jVACjxCF84AF548m6r1fGr48GwAawVAajx8vj4CE548m6r1fGr45WwAawVW8ZrCjY7CE 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(helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JASRS-0005EI-Nv for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:57:10 -0500 Received: from amailer.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.18]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JASRQ-0001bs-5g for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:57:10 -0500 Received: from s5.ifi.informatik.uni-goettingen.de ([134.76.81.25] helo=[172.23.0.2]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JASRK-0006By-3T for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:57:02 +0100 Message-ID: <477D04C3.4020405@cs.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:52:35 +0100 From: Xiaoming Fu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam Subject: Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG References: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com>, <20080103163207.B1D3.MURAMOTO.EIICHI@jp.panasonic.com> <200801032142407644581@126.com> In-Reply-To: <200801032142407644581@126.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated: Id:xfu X-Spam-Level: - X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Dear all, As a RG member I have one, probably more general question: where we are now and where we are going within the RG? In the past few months (since IETF#69) the technical discussion was somewhat dormant in the mailing list, nor there is an active ID on SAM, therefore I have been wondering this question - or more specifically, a set of subquetions below: http://www.samrg.org states that "The Scalable Adaptive Multicast (SAM) Research Group invetigates multicast protocols including application layer multicast (ALM), overlay multicast (OM), native multicast, and hybrid techniques with the goal of greater scalabality and adaptability in terms of numbers of multicast groups and network resources. It also provides input for standardization efforts within the IETF." "The Scalable Adaptive Multicast (SAM) Research Group is chartered to explore and research techniques which improve multicast performance with respect to dimensions such as number of groups, dynamics of group membership, dynamics of the network topology, and network resource constraints. The RG will investigate approaches based on application layer multicast (ALM), overlay multicast (OM), and native IP multicast, as well as hybrid approaches." --> This indicates that, analysis of existing non-IP multicast approaches would be a GOAL. I have somehow sensed this as possible RG item but no team work being taken nor active draft at least from what I know for now. "A key design consideration is the placement of multicast state information along the multicast path, including packet headers, end hosts, and network nodes, where placement may be determined adaptively." --> This implies that the placement of MC state information could be dynamic, which does not tell what we should do. "In SAM architectures, new protocols are expected to coexist and integrate with native IP multicast protocols while offering more flexible deployment options and scaling to support a greater number of simultaneous multicast groups. Alternative technologies such as end-system multicast and overlay multicast have been demonstrated, but these mechanisms must be integrated into a unified architecture and operational design." --> this implies a new (or called "unified") architecture will be defined within the RG. Maybe I am missing something, but where is an architecture or prototypical idea? "Among the challenges to be addressed are: multicasting in topologies with concatenated VPNs, such as the Global Information Grid (GIG); ability to incorporate QoS mechanisms while retaining scalability; integration with network- and application-layer security mechanisms; and adaptation schemes which consider group-related factors, such as group size, number of sources, membership dynamics, sensitivity to delay, amount of state, state update rate, application data rate, and other application-specific parameters, as well as network-related factors, such as dynamics of topology, carrying capacity, and connectivity." --> This looks to me we aim to define evaluation metrics and make a systematic evaluation for various existing (non-IP) multicast proposals? "Methods will be explored for group formation and discovery that scale to large numbers of groups, accommodate highly dynamic group membership, and support user-initiated small-group multicast in which the group is defined as a set of explicitly addressed endpoints. Further challenges include efficient multicast for limited-resource nodes and access links, control mechanisms for hybrid systems, approaches to optimization in the network, including routing, and operation in mobile networks, including Mobile Ad-hoc Networks (MANETs)." --> My interpretation would be that SAMRG intends to take group management into account and consider multicast over specific scenarios. For the former, I didn't recall much ML discussion on the design space; For the later if I remember it correctly there is an ID (actually a group of IDs) on mobile multicast recently and even discussed in last IETF, would people here be interested on this and like to explore more details? "Deploying, diagnosing, debugging, and managing multicast services is complex, particularly for services which span multiple administrative domains. The RG will propose and evaluate tools and strategies for deployment, operations, and management of SAM services." --> I would rather see some document(s) and more discussions on operational experiences on IPTV and multicast deployments in the Internet. This may allow better understanding of the customers' need and what are the real operational requirements/constraints. Again question is: would people here be interested in contributing and discussing their related work/experiences to the RG? "The RG will select candidates for analysis and evaluation from existing research results. Researchers are invited to submit new approaches for further investigation. Through experimentation, the RG seeks to deepen its understanding of the solution space and to enable the identification of preferred solutions as a function of dynamic network characteristics and the number of multicast sources, receivers, and groups." --> Well, we probably have some good starts in turns of evaluation of existing works, but not much extended and reviewed in the RG - or I am missing any active editors? "The expected findings of the RG include characterizing the problem space, including driving scenarios, comparisons and analysis of existing approaches, a SAM framework that supports multiple ALM/OM/ native/hybrid protocols, analysis of network infrastructure impact when multicast traffic becomes a dominant flow in a network, and deployment scenarios which are independent of but can support and evolve with network infrastructure support for native multicast. The findings are expected to be published in technical reports, academic papers, and/or RFCs." --> This sounds reasonable scoping, but I cannot resist ask myself: where are we now? Maybe it would be helpful if we could make the future work agenda more clearly expressed, by defining RG (at least some mid-term) milestones and soliciting active contributors (esp. corresponding editors) for each of the work items, e.g., (roughly sequentially in time but may overlay): * A survey of existing non-IP multicast approaches (btw - did any RG/IAB/IETF WG publish a survey on existing IP multicast protocols? RFC3569? Otherwise, I would suggest also to look at IP multicast protocols too as another potential work item) - Informational * Evaluation metrics of multicast approaches - Informational * An evaluation of Internet multicast approaches - Informational * A SAM framework for interworking (?) between different multicast approaches - Informational * Operational experience of IPTV services (or IPTV operational practices) - Informational * Experience with the xxx Protocol - Informational (or BCP?) * (Suggestions for) Multicast in mobile IP(v6) environments (or some other scenarios) - Informational etc. My 0.02 cents Cheers, Xiaoming Forest.Lin wrote: > Hi, I want to ask u a question , that is , when the sam-tk project can > release the first version on http://sourceforge.net/projects/samtk ? thx! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Forest.Lin > 2008-01-03 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *发件人：* Eiichi Muramoto > *发送时间：* 2008-01-03 15:35:14 > *收件人：* buford@samrg.org > *抄送：* sam@irtf.org; xcast@wide.ad.jp > *主题：* Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG > > John-san > > We would like to have presentation below at the BoF of SAM in IETF71 > > - Tutorial of SAM-TK ( by Nobuo Kawaguchi of Nagoya Univ.) > - ALM API for Topology Management and > Network Layers Transparent Multimedia Streaming > (by Lim Boon Ping of Panasonic Kuala Lumpur Lab) > - XCAST 1.0 and 2.0 ( by Yuji -UG- Imai of WIDE ) > > I think 15 min for each is enough. > > Best Regards, > Eiichi Muramoto > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:53:40 -0500 > "John Buford" wrote: > > > We plan to hold a meeting of the SAM RG at IETF-71 in Philadelphia. > > > > When the exact date of the meeting is available, we will post to the mail > > list. > > > > Please post requests for agenda items to the mail list. > > > > Thank you, > > > > John Buford & Jeremy Mineweaser > > -- > Eiichi Muramoto > > > _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 11:37:33 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAT4X-0005Ew-AF; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:37:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAT4V-00057K-Lv for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:37:31 -0500 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAT4U-0002C7-U1 for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:37:31 -0500 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so1848198wxd.7 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:37:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=uKs2R48/IdlHv8l9ugJh9Swf4CwCuItwBsbo3tjdFgI=; b=ZTISTLQ2S8isza5VfgHbpjsIRvrNyFDmAb5NPrAX1CJkUe1r3Bh9MvSnpUEcPykewMqb+speTtfmIrgcudq/ptSML7vvqkHW7kk7IZez9k19yA1zJ00WQc8xsN+hnhJbs7DEhRmDTbbgSxluT6TfKixtI9qIO9u7XYSy/SPUD7Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=E8gLWLmNutlhRd07zkx0x+Wkr0ko4se4CgrXjBxDgwIMWLbMVw6UhGqTfowHewNlp88MkezhBF2MNmLZcsZ3uLfGbYdXOvMeHdjHMu+EUEVo1b/cjuVkNWvEni1eF2mk2AzQ0pDg3fc0NXp19h1w1knXAzqvJI2wh6kZB9fHycY= Received: by 10.142.104.9 with SMTP id b9mr4628487wfc.48.1199378245586; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.2.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:37:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801030837t41266901x4a397a969880881c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:37:25 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: sam@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 27fa4ef73c561cc6 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: Subject: [SAM] SAM RG 2007 report X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0962590808==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============0962590808== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4472_14561500.1199378245578" ------=_Part_4472_14561500.1199378245578 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Here is a report we prepared for Aaron Falk, the IRTF chair, on SAM RG activities in 2007. Please let us know if there are any missing items or suggestions. John & Jeremy SAM RG co-chairs ===================================== 2007 SAM RG Report The RG was formed in June 2006 and is co-chaired by John Buford (Avaya Labs Research) and Jeremy Mineweaser (MIT Lincoln Laboratory). The scope of the RG is to research application layer multicast techniques that leverage native multicast and can adapt to different application requirements. The SAM RG held two meetings in 2007: an interim meeting in January 2007 in conjunction with the P2P Multicasting Workshop, and a meeting at IETF 69. The main results of the RG are development of the following drafts and publications related to work items in the charter of the RG: - Problem statement and requirements draft-irtf-sam-problem-statement-01.txt draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-01.txt - Technology survey H. Yu, J. Buford. Advanced Topics in Peer-to-Peer Overlay Multicast. in Encyclopedia of Wireless and Mobile Communications (Ed. B. Fuhrt) CRC Press. To appear. - Framework for the SAM design: draft-irtf-sam-hybrid-overlay-framework-01.txt A key part of the SAM framework is leveraging the design of "Automatic IP Multicast Without Explicit Tunnels (AMT)" (draft-ietf-mboned-auto-multicast-08) by extending it to permit ALM connection. - Hybrid ALM protocol proposals, including: Waelrich & Schmidt: The Hybrid Shared Tree Architecture Lei, Fu, Yang, & Hogrefe: Dynamic Mesh-Based Overlay Multicast Protocol - Testbed for SAM experimentation and demonstration Participants from WIDE have developed and tested an XCAST router on a private PlanetLab. This work is discussed in: draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-exp-testbed-00 The XCAST (multidestination multicast) router is an element of the SAM Framework due to the synergy between overlay routing and multi-destination routing in the underlay network, which we have shown to have message savings of 30% in the following publication: Exploiting parallelism in the design of peer-to-peer overlays Computer Communications Journal, In Press, John Buford, Alan Brown and Mario Kolberg The next meeting is scheduled for IETF-71. Goals for further work include moving the XCAST router to the public PlanetLab for use by the entire RG, and integrating this with the extended version of AMT described in the SAM Framework specification. SAMRG: www.samrg.org ------=_Part_4472_14561500.1199378245578 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Here is a report we prepared for Aaron Falk, the IRTF chair,
on SAM RG activities in 2007.  Please let us know
if there are any missing items or suggestions.
 
John & Jeremy
SAM RG co-chairs
 
=====================================
 
 
2007 SAM RG Report
 
The RG was formed in June 2006 and is co-chaired by
John Buford (Avaya Labs Research) and Jeremy Mineweaser
(MIT Lincoln Laboratory). The scope of the RG is to research application
layer multicast techniques that leverage native multicast and
can adapt to different application requirements.
 
The SAM RG held two meetings in 2007: an interim meeting
in January 2007 in conjunction with the P2P Multicasting
Workshop, and a meeting at IETF 69. 
 
The main results of the RG are development of the following drafts
and publications related to work items in the charter of the RG:
 
- Problem statement and requirements
    draft-irtf-sam-problem-statement-01.txt
    draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-generic-require-01.txt
 
- Technology survey
   H. Yu, J. Buford. Advanced Topics in Peer-to-Peer Overlay
   Multicast. in Encyclopedia of Wireless and Mobile Communications
   (Ed. B. Fuhrt) CRC Press. To appear.
 
- Framework for the SAM design:
   draft-irtf-sam-hybrid-overlay-framework-01.txt
   A key part of the SAM framework is leveraging the design of
   "Automatic IP Multicast Without Explicit Tunnels (AMT)"
   (draft-ietf-mboned-auto-multicast-08) by extending it to
   permit ALM connection.

- Hybrid ALM protocol proposals, including:
 
   Waelrich & Schmidt: The Hybrid Shared Tree Architecture
   Lei, Fu, Yang, & Hogrefe: Dynamic Mesh-Based Overlay Multicast Protocol
 
- Testbed for SAM experimentation and demonstration
  Participants from WIDE have developed and tested an
  XCAST router on a private PlanetLab.  This work is discussed in:
  draft-muramoto-irtf-sam-exp-testbed-00
  The XCAST (multidestination multicast) router is an element of
  the SAM Framework due to the synergy between overlay routing and
  multi-destination routing in the underlay network,
  which we have shown to have message savings of 30% in the
  following publication:
 
   Exploiting parallelism in the design of peer-to-peer overlays
   Computer Communications Journal, In Press,
   John Buford, Alan Brown and Mario Kolberg

The next meeting is scheduled for IETF-71. Goals for further
work include moving the XCAST router to the public PlanetLab
for use by the entire RG, and integrating this with the
extended version of AMT described in the SAM Framework specification.
 
 



------=_Part_4472_14561500.1199378245578-- --===============0962590808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============0962590808==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 12:13:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JATdZ-00061e-Gc; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:13:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JATdY-0005xX-Ri for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:13:44 -0500 Received: from hs-out-0708.google.com ([64.233.178.250] helo=hs-out-2122.google.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JATdW-00039G-JC for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:13:44 -0500 Received: by hs-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 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Received: by 10.143.2.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:13:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801030913s57900a01web369de69eefa0bf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:13:40 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: "Xiaoming Fu" , sam Subject: Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG In-Reply-To: <477D04C3.4020405@cs.uni-goettingen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com> <20080103163207.B1D3.MURAMOTO.EIICHI@jp.panasonic.com> <200801032142407644581@126.com> <477D04C3.4020405@cs.uni-goettingen.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c3981f149f4a30ff X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 94902b99ee6852833c9a2b680a1de4d3 Cc: X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1491417360==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============1491417360== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4673_8857273.1199380420295" ------=_Part_4673_8857273.1199380420295 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline WGlhb21pbmcsCgpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHJhaXNpbmcgdGhlc2UgcG9pbnRzLiAgUGxlYXNlIHNlZSB0 aGUgc2VwYXJhdGUgZW1haWwgb24KU0FNIFJHIDIwMDcgcmVwb3J0IGZvciBhIHBhcnRpYWwgYW5z d2VyIHRvIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiwKd2hlcmUgYXJlIHdlIG5vdz8KCkxldCBtZSBnaXZlIG15IHBl cnNvbmFsIHZpZXdzIHRvIHNvbWUgb2YgeW91ciBxdWVzdGlvbnMgYmVsb3cuCgpKb2huCgpPbiBK YW4gMywgMjAwOCAxMDo1MiBBTSwgWGlhb21pbmcgRnUgPGZ1QGNzLnVuaS1nb2V0dGluZ2VuLmRl PiB3cm90ZToKCj4gRGVhciBhbGwsCj4KPiBBcyBhIFJHIG1lbWJlciBJIGhhdmUgb25lLCBwcm9i YWJseSBtb3JlIGdlbmVyYWwgcXVlc3Rpb246IHdoZXJlIHdlIGFyZQo+IG5vdyBhbmQgd2hlcmUg d2UgYXJlIGdvaW5nIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgUkc/IEluIHRoZSBwYXN0IGZldyBtb250aHMgKHNpbmNl Cj4gSUVURiM2OSkgdGhlIHRlY2huaWNhbCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHdhcyBzb21ld2hhdCBkb3JtYW50 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--===============1491417360== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============1491417360==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 15:49:59 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAX0o-0007fZ-VF; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:49:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAX0m-0007fS-VZ for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:49:57 -0500 Received: from amailer.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.18]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAX0k-00085s-Ch for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:49:56 -0500 Received: from p5b03808d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([91.3.128.141] helo=[192.168.0.183]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JAX0d-00036q-70; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:49:47 +0100 Message-ID: <477D4A6A.7080006@cs.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:49:46 +0100 From: Xiaoming Fu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: buford@samrg.org Subject: Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG References: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com> <20080103163207.B1D3.MURAMOTO.EIICHI@jp.panasonic.com> <200801032142407644581@126.com> <477D04C3.4020405@cs.uni-goettingen.de> <4ce32a820801030913s57900a01web369de69eefa0bf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4ce32a820801030913s57900a01web369de69eefa0bf@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated: Id:xfu X-Spam-Level: - X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8a85b14f27c9dcbe0719e27d46abc1f8 Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Hi John, Thanks for your quick response. John Buford wrote: > Xiaoming, > > Thanks for raising these points. Please see the separate email on > SAM RG 2007 report for a partial answer to the question, > where are we now? Maybe it could have been clearer, if action items were more visible to the RG on what we intend to next. Some additional comments to your comments. > > http://www.samrg.org states that > "The Scalable Adaptive Multicast (SAM) Research Group invetigates > multicast protocols including application layer multicast (ALM), > overlay > multicast (OM), native multicast, and hybrid techniques with the goal of > greater scalabality and adaptability in terms of numbers of multicast > groups and network resources. It also provides input for > standardization > efforts within the IETF." > "The Scalable Adaptive Multicast (SAM) Research Group is chartered to > explore and research techniques which improve multicast performance with > respect to dimensions such as number of groups, dynamics of group > membership, dynamics of the network topology, and network resource > constraints. The RG will investigate approaches based on application > layer multicast (ALM), overlay multicast (OM), and native IP multicast, > as well as hybrid approaches." > > --> This indicates that, analysis of existing non-IP multicast > approaches would be a GOAL. I have somehow sensed this as possible RG > item but no team work being taken nor active draft at least from what I > know for now. > > I agree it is it a goal. We also know that a few research publications have > compared several leading ALM/OM designs already. Most of these > comparisons have been done through simulations. This requires > a simulation environment that has a realistic network topology and can > scale to large number of end systems. What simulation environment do > people think we should adopt in the RG? The ones I could recommend > from personal familiarity are SSFNet and OverSim. > Performance comparison is one (good) thing, various system design methodologies and considerations (including deployment aspects) may be another thing would be of interest. It would be cool if some noteable publications could be a starting point for generating towards new SAM framework space, but we may want to check which set of representative specific approaches would be of interest for the RG and help understanding the SAM needs. > "A key design consideration is the placement of multicast state > information along the multicast path, including packet headers, end > hosts, and network nodes, where placement may be determined adaptively." > > --> This implies that the placement of MC state information could be > dynamic, which does not tell what we should do. > > "In SAM architectures, new protocols are expected to coexist and > integrate with native IP multicast protocols while offering more > flexible deployment options and scaling to support a greater number of > simultaneous multicast groups. Alternative technologies such as > end-system multicast and overlay multicast have been demonstrated, but > these mechanisms must be integrated into a unified architecture and > operational design." > > --> this implies a new (or called "unified") architecture will be > defined within the RG. Maybe I am missing something, but where is an > architecture or prototypical idea? > > > Please see the SAM framework draft. It was discussed in the IETF-69 > meeting and the slides are on-line. The basic idea is to partition the > Internet into domains of different categories of native multicast and > ALM support, > and use an extension to AMT gateways to bridge these domains. This has the > advantage of leveraging the AMT work which is already being supported > by several vendors and for which open source implementations exist. > However AMT doesn't deal with ALM, only native multicast. Hence the > extensions. Probably I missed it, but I can't remember that there was a RG consensus or decision making on moving any existing document as RG item(s). Concerning this topic itself, my understanding was that, if there are multiple MC (including IP and various non-IP MC approaches) deployed in parallel in a single infrastructure, this maybe an interoperability or interworking issue. Is this what you want to emphasis as the objective of SAM framework? > > --> This looks to me we aim to define evaluation metrics and make a > systematic evaluation for various existing (non-IP) multicast proposals? > > > I think this is saying that the SAM Framework should be evaluated under > a variety of interesting dimensions. Are new metrics needed? Perhaps. > There are already various metrics in use, but these haven't been used > in the context of all these dimensions listed above. It seems we converge here - Maybe we need some document identifying the metric set as a work item... > > Also, I don't expect to see VPN/GIG multicast work happening in the near > term > since it is not clear how much progress is being made on the GIG itself. I am not much familiar with GIG; for VPN: at least L3VPN is discussing MC (RFC4834) > > "Methods will be explored for group formation and discovery that scale > to large numbers of groups, accommodate highly dynamic group membership, > and support user-initiated small-group multicast in which the group is > defined as a set of explicitly addressed endpoints. Further challenges > include efficient multicast for limited-resource nodes and access links, > control mechanisms for hybrid systems, approaches to optimization in the > network, including routing, and operation in mobile networks, including > Mobile Ad-hoc Networks (MANETs)." > > --> My interpretation would be that SAMRG intends to take group > management into account and consider multicast over specific scenarios. > For the former, I didn't recall much ML discussion on the design space; > For the later if I remember it correctly there is an ID (actually a > group of IDs) on mobile multicast recently and even discussed in last > IETF, would people here be interested on this and like to explore more > details? > > > There have been no proposals in the RG that I can remember on ALM in > mobile P2P, > I don't think there has been much work on this in general. > > > > > "Deploying, diagnosing, debugging, and managing multicast services is > complex, particularly for services which span multiple administrative > domains. The RG will propose and evaluate tools and strategies for > deployment, operations, and management of SAM services." > > --> I would rather see some document(s) and more discussions on > operational experiences on IPTV and multicast deployments in the > Internet. This may allow better understanding of the customers' need and > what are the real operational requirements/constraints. Again question > is: would people here be interested in contributing and discussing > their > related work/experiences to the RG? > > > Sure, all operational experience is useful. > > > > > "The RG will select candidates for analysis and evaluation from existing > research results. Researchers are invited to submit new approaches for > further investigation. Through experimentation, the RG seeks to deepen > its understanding of the solution space and to enable the identification > of preferred solutions as a function of dynamic network characteristics > and the number of multicast sources, receivers, and groups." > --> Well, we probably have some good starts in turns of evaluation of > existing works, but not much extended and reviewed in the RG - or I am > missing any active editors? > > > More contributions in all areas of the SAM work areas including evaluations > would be a good thing. > > > > > "The expected findings of the RG include characterizing the problem > space, including driving scenarios, comparisons and analysis of > existing > approaches, a SAM framework that supports multiple ALM/OM/ native/hybrid > protocols, analysis of network infrastructure impact when multicast > traffic becomes a dominant flow in a network, and deployment scenarios > which are independent of but can support and evolve with network > infrastructure support for native multicast. The findings are expected > to be published in technical reports, academic papers, and/or RFCs." > --> This sounds reasonable scoping, but I cannot resist ask myself: > where are we now? Maybe it would be helpful if we could make the future > work agenda more clearly expressed, by defining RG (at least some > mid-term) milestones and soliciting active contributors (esp. > corresponding editors) for each of the work items, e.g., (roughly > sequentially in time but may overlay): > > * A survey of existing non-IP multicast approaches (btw - did any > RG/IAB/IETF WG publish a survey on existing IP multicast protocols? > > > There are a few publications on surveying IP multicast protocols, but > not clear > if these were organized by an WG/RG. Again, if this is helpful for understanding SAM needs, maybe it would not hurt to take a closer look first if some individuals would volunteer to help and contribute... > > > RFC3569? Otherwise, I would suggest also to look at IP multicast > protocols too as another potential work item) - Informational > * Evaluation metrics of multicast approaches - Informational > * An evaluation of Internet multicast approaches - Informational > * A SAM framework for interworking (?) between different multicast > approaches - Informational > * Operational experience of IPTV services (or IPTV operational > practices) - Informational > * Experience with the xxx Protocol - Informational (or BCP?) > * (Suggestions for) Multicast in mobile IP(v6) environments (or some > other scenarios) - Informational > etc. > I think there are enough WGs doing native multicast work already, > but hybrid schemes are in scope for the RG. Maybe the issue is where the RG wants to investigate. AFAIK native MC is being deployed in IPTV systems and some other constraint environments, but not a global Internet, but its implication may be interesting to know before studying hybrid schemes. > > Thanks for the comments. Please attend the IETF 71 meeting and > participate in the agenda. Thanks - I would be glad to join the meeting and discuss open issues both face-to-face and in the ML. My impression is that the RG probably wants to fix a limited set of work items and raise more technical discussions here esp. contributing and reviewing more related documents in order to move on... :) Cheers, Xiaoming _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 16:13:13 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAXNJ-0000EI-15; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:13:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAXNI-0000CC-3y for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:13:12 -0500 Received: from mail7.is.haw-hamburg.de ([141.22.192.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAXNF-0008T8-Nb for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:13:12 -0500 Received: from mailgate.informatik.haw-hamburg.de (osiris.informatik.haw-hamburg.de [141.22.10.154]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail7.is.haw-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58932FE1C; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:13:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailgate.informatik.haw-hamburg.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailgate.informatik.haw-hamburg.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 30768-01-8; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:12:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.178.20] (e178184080.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.178.184.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailgate.informatik.haw-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5097B400118; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:12:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <477D4FD6.1040000@informatik.haw-hamburg.de> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:12:54 +0100 From: "Thomas C. Schmidt" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: buford@samrg.org Subject: Re: [SAM] IETF-71 meeting for SAM RG References: <4ce32a820801021053i6426662aq61eba96be14c36ab@mail.gmail.com> <20080103163207.B1D3.MURAMOTO.EIICHI@jp.panasonic.com> <200801032142407644581@126.com> <477D04C3.4020405@cs.uni-goettingen.de> <4ce32a820801030913s57900a01web369de69eefa0bf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4ce32a820801030913s57900a01web369de69eefa0bf@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at informatik.haw-hamburg.de X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV at HAW Hamburg Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Hi Xiamoming, John, and all, John Buford wrote: >=20 > --> My interpretation would be that SAMRG intends to take group > management into account and consider multicast over specific scenar= ios. > For the former, I didn't recall much ML discussion on the design sp= ace; > For the later if I remember it correctly there is an ID (actually a > group of IDs) on mobile multicast recently and even discussed in la= st > IETF, would people here be interested on this and like to explore m= ore > details? >=20 > =20 > There have been no proposals in the RG that I can remember on ALM in=20 > mobile P2P, > I don't think there has been much work on this in general. > =20 There is a good analysis and architectural proposal by Garyfalos & Almeroth: "A Flexible Overlay Architecture for Mobile IPv6 Multicast", IEEE Journ. on Selected Areas in Comm., 23 (11), pp. 2194-2205, November 2005. Also, the Hybrid Shared Tree presentation Matthias gave in Chicago headed in this direction: W=C3=A4hlisch, M., Schmidt, T.C. "Between Underlay and Overlay: On Deployable, Efficient, Mobility-agnostic Group Communication Services", Internet Research, 17 (5), pp. 519-534, Emerald Insight, UK, November 2007. > * Operational experience of IPTV services (or IPTV operational > practices) - Informational > * Experience with the xxx Protocol - Informational (or BCP?) > * (Suggestions for) Multicast in mobile IP(v6) environments (or som= e > other scenarios) - Informational > etc. > Work in this area is currently addressed in MobOpts. There is a converging problem statement: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-mobopts-mmcastv6-ps and quite a couple of solutions, which are referenced therein. A discussion on IPTV issues has recently been issued: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deng-multimob-ps-mobilemulticast Btw.: IPTV is currently deployed on significant scale in Europe, using native IP Multicast and following the business model of carriers taking the role of content providers/distributors. Best regards, thomas --=20 =C2=B0 Prof. Dr. Thomas C. Schmidt =C2=B0 HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik =C2=B0 University of Applied Sciences =C2=B0 Berliner Tor 7, D 20099 Hamburg =C2=B0 Germany, Fon: +49-40-42875-8157 =C2=B0 http://www.informatik.haw-hamburg.de/~schmidt _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 16:14:34 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAXOc-000160-14; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:14:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAXOa-00015t-Px for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:14:32 -0500 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.228]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAXOZ-0008Vb-0x for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:14:32 -0500 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so1939697wxd.7 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:14:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=YOeqvXWai3VjzQH9q2v+K+ysmShxDLa4JZUaos4bypo=; b=nQGWcXXeCrUc2dp+wrMmgHMXwShVsR3qAGLkM3MV+NlwE/vOlwf3qcopYCrk1dom2kcKiySofXDZ5gXZ5pzRiQOZ1RczHTjS3cw5KjcKRG8OkBxPA/bMG/eXT7381usRur5z+1GoU2uCl4+7m9euS4d5pqu5LvYxhHAjaAYiV1Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=Ds1zjinRPDs1CKzlSuxFFJR2CzxpCpnKf4HuL/BPH7trDMlUarSxKnPL9UxT+XchgQh8OKF3gjtd5NOG1HoKnXKQn5dNhHNz/+tUzl1LDYr/yQm6Oi/zUjXgoOn2mFAKpqYrs2ym96DvnxkJ/9/0XK14+IJKU58rPqpsoQF2row= Received: by 10.142.142.16 with SMTP id p16mr4845196wfd.119.1199394869257; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.2.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:14:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:14:29 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: "Xiaoming Fu" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8b728748200ccc22 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Cc: sam Subject: [SAM] SAM RG next steps X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1668099843==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============1668099843== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5940_10775761.1199394869243" ------=_Part_5940_10775761.1199394869243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Xiaoming, I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on: 1) problem statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4) evaluation through implementation, analysis or simulation. IDs were written on 1,2, and 3. They have been presented in several RG meetings with some discussion and no objections. It is not clear how much more should be done on 1 and 2 IDs. I don't know that we should try to push them to informational RFCs. Possibly new scenarios from IPTV or P2P video delivery systems could be incorporated into them. Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements / use cases into an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will probably stay in the expired state. As for (3), I plan to update (3) before the next meeting. The goal of the SAM framework is to permit multiple ALM schemes to co-exist in the same multicast overlay for experimentation purposes. The ALM schemes I think are most promising are those which are built on a P2P overlay. In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as well. Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM can co-exist. That's the general idea. We could either build this in PlanetLab or devise a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can share it. We should first agree on the SAM Framework approach. Comments, counter proposals, etc. are welcomed. John On Jan 3, 2008 3:49 PM, Xiaoming Fu wrote: > Hi John, > > Thanks for your quick response. > John Buford wrote: > > Xiaoming, > > > > Thanks for raising these points. Please see the separate email on > > SAM RG 2007 report for a partial answer to the question, > > where are we now? > > Maybe it could have been clearer, if action items were more visible to > the RG on what we intend to next. Some additional comments to your > comments. > > ------=_Part_5940_10775761.1199394869243 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Xiaoming,
 
I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on:
1) problem statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4) evaluation through
implementation, analysis or simulation.
 
IDs were written on 1,2, and 3.  They have been presented in several RG meetings
with some discussion and no objections.  It is not clear how much more should be
done on 1 and 2 IDs.  I don't know that we should try to push them to informational
RFCs. Possibly new scenarios from IPTV or P2P video delivery systems could be
incorporated into them. 
 
Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements / use cases into
an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will probably stay in the expired state.
 
As for (3), I plan to update (3) before the next meeting. 
The goal of the SAM framework is to permit multiple ALM schemes to co-exist in the
same multicast overlay for experimentation purposes.  The ALM schemes I think are
most promising are those which are built on a P2P overlay.  In addition, in the P2P-SIP
WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant
to support the operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). 
So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: extended AMT gateways,
ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P overlay protocol.  Then, any researcher
could plug their own ALM algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm
as well.  Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM
can co-exist. 
 
That's the general idea.  We could either build this in PlanetLab or devise
a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can share it.
 
We should first agree on the SAM Framework approach. 
Comments, counter proposals, etc. are welcomed.
 
John
 
 


 
On Jan 3, 2008 3:49 PM, Xiaoming Fu <fu@cs.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
Hi John,

Thanks for your quick response.
John Buford wrote:
> Xiaoming,
>
> Thanks for raising these points.  Please see the separate email on
> SAM RG 2007 report for a partial answer to the question,
> where are we now?

Maybe it could have been clearer, if action items were more visible to
the RG on what we intend to next. Some additional comments to your comments.

<deleted>
------=_Part_5940_10775761.1199394869243-- --===============1668099843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============1668099843==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 17:56:44 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAYzT-0007BB-JC; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:56:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAYzR-0007A5-Ni for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:56:42 -0500 Received: from mail2.rz.fhtw-berlin.de ([141.45.10.102]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAYzP-0001rY-UD for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:56:41 -0500 Received: from e178184080.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.178.184.80] helo=mw-thinkpad) by mail2.rz.fhtw-berlin.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAYzP-0007Gw-2m; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:56:39 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:56:37 +0100 From: Matthias Waehlisch To: John Buford Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps In-Reply-To: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> X-X-Sender: mw@mail2.rz.fhtw-berlin.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Hi John, On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: > I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on: 1) problem > statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4) > evaluation through implementation, analysis or simulation. [...] > Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements / > use cases into an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will > probably stay in the expired state. > I think yes. It doesn't seem obvious why an Internet Draft should go to expire: Is the topic sufficiently discussed or is the draft insufficient ... And a comprehensive problem statement gives a good starting point for further work. [...] > In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P > overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the > operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). > > So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: > extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P > overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM > algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as well. > Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM can > co-exist. > What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it similar to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for Structured Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM 'stack' and application. But this should be a part of a common group membership framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also an outcome of SAM RG. > That's the general idea. We could either build this in PlanetLab or > devise a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can > share it. > Or in both - like the approach in OverSim which allows to incorporate real-world traffic into the simulator. Cheers matthias -- Matthias Waehlisch :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 18:07:05 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAZ9V-0000zx-Cx; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAZ9U-0000zl-4w for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:04 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.238]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAZ9S-00022a-0J for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:04 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f1so5110072nzc.37 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:07:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=tROU3cqtR5jSPFhP1e6rBspUupIcLo+jZcmAWhyPZJw=; b=re5neJt3yDtb5lrChEsolvBkousKHu12gpcHGBcTmcsL7L1tNplusW/tCB2x110y59UuL2Eg4ZSRDsgyGviU8GHUqRTu36ZwK2NVi2lFI1D4V+8wM8o7Fu35T1YBKAStZW27qTQdFJsA7ZDwKt8ejtjfGQ4NwACFvBIgSjmJZG8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=r7qleEnp7xZKJhqQoy9nkYDSXF/pV+e0XV7GM2q3K9sAAYrnv4K6HLJjya7/7T8uWX8xFWPfksYrPTpLE0Mra3kkOXjKGDtW1b2FA1bxsVDXl0647sQN6iFQLIO4iUq56A5UcONjZKzdHK/cGZRd/AeZk4C7lfJfmtztPz6QJtg= Received: by 10.142.127.10 with SMTP id z10mr3451350wfc.216.1199401604868; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.2.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:06:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801031506h35917681x463baaf1d615c149@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:06:17 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: "Matthias Waehlisch" Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: beec19473ce454ad X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1052897407==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============1052897407== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858" ------=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Matthias, These are interesting points On Jan 3, 2008 5:56 PM, Matthias Waehlisch wrote: > Hi John, > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: > > > I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on: 1) problem > > statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4) > > evaluation through implementation, analysis or simulation. > > [...] > > > Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements / > > use cases into an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will > > probably stay in the expired state. > > > I think yes. It doesn't seem obvious why an Internet Draft should go to > expire: Is the topic sufficiently discussed or is the draft insufficient > ... And a comprehensive problem statement gives a good starting point for > further work. I agree that auto-expiring IDs in RGs may not be necessary to the extent that it is in WGs. The possibility of producing an informational RFC in RGs has only recently started. It appears to be some effort to make an ID ready for this stage. > > > [...] > > In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P > > overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the > > operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). > > > > So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: > > extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P > > overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM > > algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as well. > > Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM can > > co-exist. > > > What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it similar > to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for Structured > Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The protocol also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the observation that many structured overlays have to send the same types of messages between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, PROBE, etc. But the details vary from overlay to overlay. So the protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus extension mechanisms. I think an example of this in practice is the OverlayWeaver implementation which supports a number of different overlay algorithms using a generic message layer. (OW also follows the Dabek et al. proposal at the DHT API layer). > > > Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM 'stack' > and application. But this should be a part of a common group membership > framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also an outcome of > SAM RG. I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of? > > > > That's the general idea. We could either build this in PlanetLab or > > devise a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can > > share it. > > > Or in both - like the approach in OverSim which allows to incorporate > real-world traffic into the simulator. > > Cheers > matthias > > -- > Matthias Waehlisch > :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab > :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin > :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net > :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net > > ------=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Matthias,
These are interesting points

On Jan 3, 2008 5:56 PM, Matthias Waehlisch <waehlisch@ieee.org> wrote:
Hi John,

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote:

> I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on: 1) problem
> statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4)
> evaluation through implementation, analysis or simulation.

[...]

> Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements /
> use cases into an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will
> probably stay in the expired state.
>
 I think yes. It doesn't seem obvious why an Internet Draft should go to
expire: Is the topic sufficiently discussed or is the draft insufficient
... And a comprehensive problem statement gives a good starting point for
further work.
 
I agree that auto-expiring IDs in RGs may not be necessary to the
extent that it is in WGs.
 
The possibility of producing an informational RFC in RGs has only recently
started.  It appears to be some effort to make an ID ready for this stage.
 


[...]
> In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P
> overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the
> operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays).
>
> So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves:
> extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P
> overlay protocol.  Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM
> algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as well.
> Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM can
> co-exist.
>
 What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it similar
to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for Structured
Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)?
 
I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level.
The protocol also needs to cover overlay maintenance.
It starts from the observation that many structured overlays have to send
the same types of messages between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE,
ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, PROBE, etc.  But the details vary from overlay to
overlay.  So the protocol covers the common message types with basic
fields plus extension mechanisms.
 
I think an example of this in practice is the OverlayWeaver implementation
which supports a number of different overlay algorithms using a generic
message layer. (OW also follows the Dabek et al. proposal at the DHT API layer).
 


 Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM 'stack'
and application. But this should be a part of a common group membership
framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also an outcome of
SAM RG.
 
I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at IETF-69.
Is this what you are thinking of?
 


> That's the general idea.  We could either build this in PlanetLab or
> devise a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can
> share it.
>
 Or in both - like the approach in OverSim which allows to incorporate
real-world traffic into the simulator.

Cheers
 matthias

--
Matthias Waehlisch
:. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik        :. link-lab
:. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg        :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin
:. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org   :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net
:. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw       :. http://www.link-lab.net



------=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858-- --===============1052897407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============1052897407==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 03 18:07:57 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAZAL-0002I2-AL; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAZAJ-0002Hw-Rs for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:55 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.229]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAZAI-00023y-Vl for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:55 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f1so5111400nzc.37 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=tROU3cqtR5jSPFhP1e6rBspUupIcLo+jZcmAWhyPZJw=; b=K+acT9WrgMkv8eTU6mRG6dhIjzYAJOu7FCXL8W4BkheQb3eeRsSUXwUBsB8wC6Z9OmVSu3Y4hVnMAUkj5HPSEmE7Sl5jj7Vskc+R+TmwtHIiKzVUri42ok2ic8Ucwl2drSgO4t4mV1uOUxyLg2mB+LHji4pwnsReKtfG2PvJyTI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=r7qleEnp7xZKJhqQoy9nkYDSXF/pV+e0XV7GM2q3K9sAAYrnv4K6HLJjya7/7T8uWX8xFWPfksYrPTpLE0Mra3kkOXjKGDtW1b2FA1bxsVDXl0647sQN6iFQLIO4iUq56A5UcONjZKzdHK/cGZRd/AeZk4C7lfJfmtztPz6QJtg= Received: by 10.142.194.1 with SMTP id r1mr4914979wff.123.1199401577877; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.2.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:06:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801031506h35917681x463baaf1d615c149@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:06:17 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: "Matthias Waehlisch" Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: beec19473ce454ad X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0838681197==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============0838681197== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858" ------=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Matthias, These are interesting points On Jan 3, 2008 5:56 PM, Matthias Waehlisch wrote: > Hi John, > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: > > > I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on: 1) problem > > statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4) > > evaluation through implementation, analysis or simulation. > > [...] > > > Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements / > > use cases into an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will > > probably stay in the expired state. > > > I think yes. It doesn't seem obvious why an Internet Draft should go to > expire: Is the topic sufficiently discussed or is the draft insufficient > ... And a comprehensive problem statement gives a good starting point for > further work. I agree that auto-expiring IDs in RGs may not be necessary to the extent that it is in WGs. The possibility of producing an informational RFC in RGs has only recently started. It appears to be some effort to make an ID ready for this stage. > > > [...] > > In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P > > overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the > > operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). > > > > So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: > > extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P > > overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM > > algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as well. > > Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM can > > co-exist. > > > What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it similar > to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for Structured > Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The protocol also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the observation that many structured overlays have to send the same types of messages between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, PROBE, etc. But the details vary from overlay to overlay. So the protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus extension mechanisms. I think an example of this in practice is the OverlayWeaver implementation which supports a number of different overlay algorithms using a generic message layer. (OW also follows the Dabek et al. proposal at the DHT API layer). > > > Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM 'stack' > and application. But this should be a part of a common group membership > framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also an outcome of > SAM RG. I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of? > > > > That's the general idea. We could either build this in PlanetLab or > > devise a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can > > share it. > > > Or in both - like the approach in OverSim which allows to incorporate > real-world traffic into the simulator. > > Cheers > matthias > > -- > Matthias Waehlisch > :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab > :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin > :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net > :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net > > ------=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Matthias,
These are interesting points

On Jan 3, 2008 5:56 PM, Matthias Waehlisch <waehlisch@ieee.org> wrote:
Hi John,

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote:

> I believe the charter stipulates that the RG works on: 1) problem
> statement, 2) requirements/driving scenarios, 3) framework, 4)
> evaluation through implementation, analysis or simulation.

[...]

> Question: Should the RG try to push a problem statement / requriements /
> use cases into an informational RFC? If not, then these documents will
> probably stay in the expired state.
>
 I think yes. It doesn't seem obvious why an Internet Draft should go to
expire: Is the topic sufficiently discussed or is the draft insufficient
... And a comprehensive problem statement gives a good starting point for
further work.
 
I agree that auto-expiring IDs in RGs may not be necessary to the
extent that it is in WGs.
 
The possibility of producing an informational RFC in RGs has only recently
started.  It appears to be some effort to make an ID ready for this stage.
 


[...]
> In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal P2P
> overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the
> operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays).
>
> So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves:
> extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P
> overlay protocol.  Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM
> algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as well.
> Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and ALM can
> co-exist.
>
 What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it similar
to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for Structured
Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)?
 
I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level.
The protocol also needs to cover overlay maintenance.
It starts from the observation that many structured overlays have to send
the same types of messages between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE,
ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, PROBE, etc.  But the details vary from overlay to
overlay.  So the protocol covers the common message types with basic
fields plus extension mechanisms.
 
I think an example of this in practice is the OverlayWeaver implementation
which supports a number of different overlay algorithms using a generic
message layer. (OW also follows the Dabek et al. proposal at the DHT API layer).
 


 Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM 'stack'
and application. But this should be a part of a common group membership
framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also an outcome of
SAM RG.
 
I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at IETF-69.
Is this what you are thinking of?
 


> That's the general idea.  We could either build this in PlanetLab or
> devise a simulation environment so that multiple research groups can
> share it.
>
 Or in both - like the approach in OverSim which allows to incorporate
real-world traffic into the simulator.

Cheers
 matthias

--
Matthias Waehlisch
:. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik        :. link-lab
:. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg        :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin
:. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org   :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net
:. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw       :. http://www.link-lab.net



------=_Part_6365_7055424.1199401577858-- --===============0838681197== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============0838681197==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jan 04 06:54:23 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAl82-0005TP-TG; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:54:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAl81-0005TK-Ek for sam@irtf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:54:21 -0500 Received: from mail2.rz.fhtw-berlin.de ([141.45.10.102]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAl7z-0000dL-KY for sam@irtf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:54:21 -0500 Received: from e178130028.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.178.130.28] helo=mw-thinkpad) by mail2.rz.fhtw-berlin.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAl7w-000ISL-Dw; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:54:16 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:54:05 +0100 From: Matthias Waehlisch To: John Buford Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps In-Reply-To: <4ce32a820801031506h35917681x463baaf1d615c149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> <4ce32a820801031506h35917681x463baaf1d615c149@mail.gmail.com> X-X-Sender: mw@mail2.rz.fhtw-berlin.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Hi John, On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: > > [...] > > > In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal > > > P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the > > > operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). > > > > > > So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: > > > extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P > > > overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM > > > algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as > > > well. Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and > > > ALM can co-exist. > > > > > What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it > > similar to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for > > Structured Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? > > I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The protocol > also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the observation > that many structured overlays have to send the same types of messages > between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, > PROBE, etc. But the details vary from overlay to overlay. So the > protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus > extension mechanisms. > there is a detailed description for the KBR (key based routing) layer and some very rough ideas for multicast (CAST). The problem of the Dabek et al. model from my point of view is that it intermingles semantic definitions with algorithmic logic. The CAST abstraction for example provides standard group membership methods (join, leave, ...) on the one hand and tree maintenace description similar to SCRIBE on the other hand. > > Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM > > 'stack' and application. But this should be a part of a common group > > membership framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also > > an outcome of SAM RG. > > > I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at > IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of? > Do you mean the SAMTK? Hm, I think partly, because SAMTK is an implementation as far as I understand. It can be seen as a standard stack, however, it would be fine to have a document as a general ALM group membership guidance. This includes definition of group management methods (as done in SAMTK), a general packet format, etc. ... The SAMTK definitions for example differ from the interfaces in the Dabek et al. model. If we are looking on implementations in different ALM simulators we will also find discrepancies, although some of them rely on the Dabek et al. model. Another point is the question of broadcast as a special case of multicast. How should we define it: Should the application developer join a special multicast group - but which one? Or should we define a separate broadcast socket/interface? All of these could be addressed in a common group membership description for ALM. I feel a bit uncomfortable with too many approaches being around on this basic topic. Cheers matthias -- Matthias Waehlisch :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Fri Jan 04 15:09:58 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAsre-0007hM-9R; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:09:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAsrc-0007gy-ND for sam@irtf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:09:56 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAsrb-0003mM-Jn for sam@irtf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:09:56 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f1so5814159nzc.37 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:09:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=xwv5k6kG3ATtbNHR6kreGXbUgXIxLEqXXveAp2St2AQ=; b=NwJPKewHMJpBOLZuT1SQ9cBzOhy23vMuTa33QAZ1d61g5aO6EuoFz1uN6IUwi1YLEKW0u+8bypLnYYJtXvpEnaT+ozMW5IVvb2K44MBkOt+QRJ7EISwhDt5uzblQCllV8WaqxRS2CUzEN1dwpk01b2CppcSH/iJtbD+BteCKwlA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Msy+DJnbnS7z5IIM2PG2/J9u0Y2KbKp6KYaH0dj/I5283TXddZ4+EKOR+8jvQY7nvVKOUQv9tulJmEY9Q+qB/BIGi7hkDzMg35hZPu53Fh2GiP1/yFm4fzqoPaJYu3EU/rWDDpVrkyQ1CdtuBa8Qv7jHYC3Uxl9cCNL/UwI+eww= Received: by 10.143.34.11 with SMTP id m11mr1164354wfj.222.1199477393620; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.33.18 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ce32a820801041209w721cc5cfkc30646d9481da812@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:09:53 -0500 From: "John Buford" To: "Matthias Waehlisch" , sam Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> <4ce32a820801031506h35917681x463baaf1d615c149@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2dc6751bc6605619 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 825e642946eda55cd9bc654a36dab8c2 Cc: X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: buford@samrg.org List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0334212734==" Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org --===============0334212734== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2532_24844128.1199477393619" ------=_Part_2532_24844128.1199477393619 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Perhaps the SAMTK designers could comment on this discussion? On Jan 4, 2008 6:54 AM, Matthias Waehlisch wrote: > Hi John, > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal > > > > P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the > > > > operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). > > > > > > > > So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: > > > > extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P > > > > overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM > > > > algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as > > > > well. Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and > > > > ALM can co-exist. > > > > > > > What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it > > > similar to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for > > > Structured Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? > > > > I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The protocol > > also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the observation > > that many structured overlays have to send the same types of messages > > between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, > > PROBE, etc. But the details vary from overlay to overlay. So the > > protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus > > extension mechanisms. > > > there is a detailed description for the KBR (key based routing) layer > and some very rough ideas for multicast (CAST). > > The problem of the Dabek et al. model from my point of view is that it > intermingles semantic definitions with algorithmic logic. The CAST > abstraction for example provides standard group membership methods (join, > leave, ...) on the one hand and tree maintenace description similar to > SCRIBE on the other hand. > > > > Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM > > > 'stack' and application. But this should be a part of a common group > > > membership framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also > > > an outcome of SAM RG. > > > > > > I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at > > IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of? > > > Do you mean the SAMTK? Hm, I think partly, because SAMTK is an > implementation as far as I understand. It can be seen as a standard stack, > however, it would be fine to have a document as a general ALM group > membership guidance. This includes definition of group management methods > (as done in SAMTK), a general packet format, etc. ... The SAMTK > definitions for example differ from the interfaces in the Dabek et al. > model. If we are looking on implementations in different ALM simulators we > will also find discrepancies, although some of them rely on the Dabek et > al. model. > > Another point is the question of broadcast as a special case of > multicast. How should we define it: Should the application developer join > a special multicast group - but which one? Or should we define a separate > broadcast socket/interface? > > All of these could be addressed in a common group membership description > for ALM. I feel a bit uncomfortable with too many approaches being around > on this basic topic. > > Cheers > matthias > > -- > Matthias Waehlisch > :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab > :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin > :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net > :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net > ------=_Part_2532_24844128.1199477393619 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Perhaps the SAMTK designers could comment on this discussion?

On Jan 4, 2008 6:54 AM, Matthias Waehlisch <waehlisch@ieee.org> wrote:
Hi John,

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote:

> > [...]
> > > In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal
> > > P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the
> > > operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays).
> > >
> > > So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves:
> > > extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P
> > > overlay protocol.  Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM
> > > algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as
> > > well. Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and
> > > ALM can co-exist.
> > >
> >  What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it
> > similar to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for
> > Structured Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)?
>
> I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The protocol
> also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the observation
> that many structured overlays have to send the same types of messages
> between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE,
> PROBE, etc.  But the details vary from overlay to overlay.  So the
> protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus
> extension mechanisms.
>
 there is a detailed description for the KBR (key based routing) layer
and some very rough ideas for multicast (CAST).

 The problem of the Dabek et al. model from my point of view is that it
intermingles semantic definitions with algorithmic logic. The CAST
abstraction for example provides standard group membership methods (join,
leave, ...) on the one hand and tree maintenace description similar to
SCRIBE on the other hand.

> >  Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM
> > 'stack' and application. But this should be a part of a common group
> > membership framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also
> > an outcome of SAM RG.
>
>
> I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at
> IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of?
>
 Do you mean the SAMTK? Hm, I think partly, because SAMTK is an
implementation as far as I understand. It can be seen as a standard stack,
however, it would be fine to have a document as a general ALM group
membership guidance. This includes definition of group management methods
(as done in SAMTK), a general packet format, etc. ... The SAMTK
definitions for example differ from the interfaces in the Dabek et al.
model. If we are looking on implementations in different ALM simulators we
will also find discrepancies, although some of them rely on the Dabek et
al. model.

 Another point is the question of broadcast as a special case of
multicast. How should we define it: Should the application developer join
a special multicast group - but which one? Or should we define a separate
broadcast socket/interface?

 All of these could be addressed in a common group membership description
for ALM. I feel a bit uncomfortable with too many approaches being around
on this basic topic.

Cheers
 matthias

--
Matthias Waehlisch
:. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik        :. link-lab
:. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg        :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin
:. Germany, mailto: waehlisch@ieee.org   :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net
:. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw       :. http://www.link-lab.net



------=_Part_2532_24844128.1199477393619-- --===============0334212734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam --===============0334212734==-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Sat Jan 05 16:58:37 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH2L-0000Qv-4G; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH2J-0000Qo-TC for sam@irtf.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:58:35 -0500 Received: from amailer.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.18]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH2I-0001tQ-D0 for sam@irtf.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:58:35 -0500 Received: from p5b038983.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([91.3.137.131] helo=[192.168.0.183]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JBH23-0005Us-Ce; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:58:19 +0100 Message-ID: <477FFD7F.7020902@cs.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:58:23 +0100 From: Xiaoming Fu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthias Waehlisch Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated: Id:xfu X-Spam-Level: - X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: sam X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Matthias Waehlisch wrote: > What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it similar > to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for Structured > Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? Probably general p2p overlay protocol is not directly targeted within the RG, but p2p/overlay multicast issues may do. There are some current efforts within the P2PSIP WG, not sure what about P2PRG... > > Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM 'stack' > and application. But this should be a part of a common group membership > framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also an outcome of > SAM RG. Re: group member management seems a good item to work on, maybe we can work out something within the group... Xiaoming _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Sun Jan 06 09:08:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBWAV-0005Xh-2m; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:08:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBWAU-0005Xb-3g for sam@irtf.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:08:02 -0500 Received: from mail2.nagoya-u.jp ([133.6.1.42]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBWAR-0001N6-Mx for sam@irtf.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:08:02 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.6] (ntaich097200.aich.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [220.147.165.200]) by mail2.nagoya-u.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE3860; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:07:56 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <4780E0BE.2020102@nagoya-u.jp> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:07:58 +0900 From: Nobuo Kawaguchi Organization: Nagoya University User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps References: <4ce32a820801031314t6495601fp80ab2207d2910be1@mail.gmail.com> <4ce32a820801031506h35917681x463baaf1d615c149@mail.gmail.com> <4ce32a820801041209w721cc5cfkc30646d9481da812@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4ce32a820801041209w721cc5cfkc30646d9481da812@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2086112c730e13d5955355df27e3074b Cc: X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Hi John, and all, I'm one of the SAMTK designer. So I should say my opinion. As I already presented in IETF-69 SAM-RG, SAMTK is just a middleware(or toolkit) to ease a development of applications and multi-point protocols. This means that, by using SAMTK, application developers can easily develop a multi-point comm app without considering multi-point protocols. Also protocol researchers can utilize real applications just developing a protocol plug-in for SAMTK. We also provide a group management API in SAMTK. We already implement a Web based centralized group management. But API does not limit the implementation. (We also planning to implement a P2P/DHT based group management.) As you already mentioned, API in SAMTK could be more general. However, we do not know what kind of communication pattern will be suitable for multi-point group communication and group management. This means, definition of "common" API is not easy. So we start from a implementation. By using SAMTK as a reference, we can discuss its pros and cons. We do not hesitate to change the API of SAMTK as a result of discussions in SAM-RG. SAMTK is now in beta phase. We are currently preparing English documents. So please wait a bit. yours, Nobuo Kawaguchi Graduate School of Engineering, Nagoya Univ., Japan. kawaguti@nagoya-u.jp John Buford Wrotes, > Perhaps the SAMTK designers could comment on this discussion? > > On Jan 4, 2008 6:54 AM, Matthias Waehlisch wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: >> >>>> [...] >>>>> In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal >>>>> P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support the >>>>> operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). >>>>> >>>>> So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: >>>>> extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P >>>>> overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM >>>>> algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as >>>>> well. Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast and >>>>> ALM can co-exist. >>>>> >>>> What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it >>>> similar to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API for >>>> Structured Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? >>> I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The protocol >>> also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the observation >>> that many structured overlays have to send the same types of messages >>> between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, >>> PROBE, etc. But the details vary from overlay to overlay. So the >>> protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus >>> extension mechanisms. >>> >> there is a detailed description for the KBR (key based routing) layer >> and some very rough ideas for multicast (CAST). >> >> The problem of the Dabek et al. model from my point of view is that it >> intermingles semantic definitions with algorithmic logic. The CAST >> abstraction for example provides standard group membership methods (join, >> leave, ...) on the one hand and tree maintenace description similar to >> SCRIBE on the other hand. >> >>>> Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM >>>> 'stack' and application. But this should be a part of a common group >>>> membership framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be also >>>> an outcome of SAM RG. >>> >>> I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at >>> IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of? >>> >> Do you mean the SAMTK? Hm, I think partly, because SAMTK is an >> implementation as far as I understand. It can be seen as a standard stack, >> however, it would be fine to have a document as a general ALM group >> membership guidance. This includes definition of group management methods >> (as done in SAMTK), a general packet format, etc. ... The SAMTK >> definitions for example differ from the interfaces in the Dabek et al. >> model. If we are looking on implementations in different ALM simulators we >> will also find discrepancies, although some of them rely on the Dabek et >> al. model. >> >> Another point is the question of broadcast as a special case of >> multicast. How should we define it: Should the application developer join >> a special multicast group - but which one? Or should we define a separate >> broadcast socket/interface? >> >> All of these could be addressed in a common group membership description >> for ALM. I feel a bit uncomfortable with too many approaches being around >> on this basic topic. >> >> Cheers >> matthias >> >> -- >> Matthias Waehlisch >> :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab >> :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 Berlin >> :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, mailto:mw@link-lab.net >> :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SAM mailing list > SAM@irtf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam From sam-bounces@irtf.org Thu Jan 17 05:04:57 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFRcH-000791-C0; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 05:04:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFRcD-0006zU-RK for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 05:04:53 -0500 Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp ([133.183.100.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFRc8-0006Bv-7Z for sam@irtf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 05:04:53 -0500 Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com ([157.8.1.145]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kc-maile14) with ESMTP id m0HA4iW9006194; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:04:44 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlb2) with ESMTP id m0HA4i908489; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:04:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/kc-maili04) with SMTP id m0HA4ib16285; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:04:44 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C858F0.5D2E0DD5" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:04:35 +0800 Message-ID: <769E965D82021346949AF2BC41D8EAB77FBED9@prdcm-mail.prdcm.panasonic.com.my> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-pkll-irtf-sam-alm-api-00 Thread-Index: AchQbZGABF0/AHwsQvKy2UR5NCue+QIglB3g From: "Lim Boon Ping" To: "Nobuo Kawaguchi" , "sam" X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: aafbb359257cdee39d68c7ac7bccd638 Cc: "Tan Pek Yew \(PSL\)" Subject: [SAM] draft-pkll-irtf-sam-alm-api-00 X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C858F0.5D2E0DD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Inline with the goal of SAM RG to develop a SAM framework, we have made = an attempt to define a set of wrapper API for ALM topology management and network layer transparent content distribution. Attached in this email = is the initial draft. Abstract: This document defines and describes the topology management = and network layer transparent middleware wrapper API for ALM forwarding table construction, distribution and multimedia content transportation = over IPv4/IPv6 for unicast and xcast. The proposed draft is intended to compliment SAMTK which proposed a = standard set of API for Group Management and Traffic Management, leaving the = Topology Management module undefined. Additionally, this draft also describes = flexible protocol selection mechanism as proposed in SAMTK's Traffic Management = API. It is understood that defining a set of common API which cover all ALM protocols is a challenging task. We hope this draft will be a starting = point for further discussion to achieve SAM's goal, common ALM framework. Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated. Thank you! Regards, Boon Ping -----Original Message----- From: Nobuo Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@nagoya-u.jp]=20 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:08 PM To: sam Subject: Re: [SAM] SAM RG next steps Hi John, and all, I'm one of the SAMTK designer. So I should say my opinion. As I already presented in IETF-69 SAM-RG, SAMTK is=20 just a middleware(or toolkit) to ease a development of=20 applications and multi-point protocols. This means that, by using SAMTK, application developers can=20 easily develop a multi-point comm app without considering multi-point protocols. Also protocol researchers can=20 utilize real applications just developing a protocol plug-in for SAMTK. We also provide a group management API in SAMTK. We already implement a Web based centralized group management.=20 But API does not limit the implementation. (We also planning to implement a P2P/DHT based group management.) =20 As you already mentioned, API in SAMTK could be more general. However, we do not know what kind of communication pattern=20 will be suitable for multi-point group communication and=20 group management. This means, definition of "common" API is not easy. So we start from a implementation.=20 By using SAMTK as a reference, we can discuss its pros and cons. We do not hesitate to change the API of SAMTK as a result of discussions in SAM-RG. SAMTK is now in beta phase. We are currently preparing English documents. So please wait a bit. yours,=20 Nobuo Kawaguchi Graduate School of Engineering, Nagoya Univ., Japan. kawaguti@nagoya-u.jp John Buford Wrotes, > Perhaps the SAMTK designers could comment on this discussion? >=20 > On Jan 4, 2008 6:54 AM, Matthias Waehlisch wrote: >=20 >> Hi John, >> >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Buford wrote: >> >>>> [...] >>>>> In addition, in the P2P-SIP WG there is a proposal for a universal >>>>> P2P overlay protocol. (universal in that it is meant to support = the >>>>> operations needed by several multi-hop structured overlays). >>>>> >>>>> So, the direction I have in mind for the SAM Framework involves: >>>>> extended AMT gateways, ALM on P2P overlay, use of a universal P2P >>>>> overlay protocol. Then, any researcher could plug their own ALM >>>>> algorithm into this and select their own P2P overlay algorithm as >>>>> well. Meanwhile, the AMT integration means that native multicast = and >>>>> ALM can co-exist. >>>>> >>>> What does a universal P2P overlay protocol mean in detail? Is it >>>> similar to the common API by Dabek et al. ("Towards a Common API = for >>>> Structured Peer-to-Peer Overlays", 2003)? >>> I recall the Dabek et al. model is mainly on the DHT level. The = protocol >>> also needs to cover overlay maintenance. It starts from the = observation >>> that many structured overlays have to send the same types of = messages >>> between peers, such as GET, PUT, JOIN, LEAVE, ROUTING-TABLE UPDATE, >>> PROBE, etc. But the details vary from overlay to overlay. So the >>> protocol covers the common message types with basic fields plus >>> extension mechanisms. >>> >> there is a detailed description for the KBR (key based routing) = layer >> and some very rough ideas for multicast (CAST). >> >> The problem of the Dabek et al. model from my point of view is that = it >> intermingles semantic definitions with algorithmic logic. The CAST >> abstraction for example provides standard group membership methods = (join, >> leave, ...) on the one hand and tree maintenace description similar = to >> SCRIBE on the other hand. >> >>>> Btw: It makes sense to have an interface definition between ALM >>>> 'stack' and application. But this should be a part of a common = group >>>> membership framework maybe borrowed from IGMP/MLD. That could be = also >>>> an outcome of SAM RG. >>> >>> I think there is a proposed ALM API in the RG that was discussed at >>> IETF-69. Is this what you are thinking of? >>> >> Do you mean the SAMTK? Hm, I think partly, because SAMTK is an >> implementation as far as I understand. It can be seen as a standard = stack, >> however, it would be fine to have a document as a general ALM group >> membership guidance. This includes definition of group management = methods >> (as done in SAMTK), a general packet format, etc. ... The SAMTK >> definitions for example differ from the interfaces in the Dabek et = al. >> model. If we are looking on implementations in different ALM = simulators we >> will also find discrepancies, although some of them rely on the Dabek = et >> al. model. >> >> Another point is the question of broadcast as a special case of >> multicast. How should we define it: Should the application developer = join >> a special multicast group - but which one? Or should we define a = separate >> broadcast socket/interface? >> >> All of these could be addressed in a common group membership = description >> for ALM. I feel a bit uncomfortable with too many approaches being = around >> on this basic topic. >> >> Cheers >> matthias >> >> -- >> Matthias Waehlisch >> :. HAW Hamburg, Dept. Informatik :. link-lab >> :. Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg :. Hoenower Str. 35, 10318 = Berlin >> :. Germany, mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org :. Germany, = mailto:mw@link-lab.net >> :. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~mw :. http://www.link-lab.net >> >=20 >=20 > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > SAM mailing list > SAM@irtf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam ------_=_NextPart_001_01C858F0.5D2E0DD5 Content-Type: text/plain; name="20080117-draft-pkll-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: 20080117-draft-pkll-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="20080117-draft-pkll-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt" U2NhbGFibGUgQWRhcHRpdmUgTXVsdGljYXN0IFJlc2VhcmNoIEdyb3VwICAgICAgICAgQi5QLiBM aW0sIEsuIEV0dGlrYW4gCkludGVybmV0IERyYWZ0ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIFBhbmFzb25pYyBLdWFsYSBMdW1wdXIgTGFiICAgICAgICAgICAgIApJbnRlbmRlZCBzdGF0 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CgogIEZ1bmRpbmcgZm9yIHRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yIGZ1bmN0aW9uIGlzIGN1cnJlbnRseSBwcm92 aWRlZCBieSB0aGUgCiAgSW50ZXJuZXQgU29jaWV0eS4gCgogICAKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoK CgoKCiAKIApMaW0gZXQuYWwuICAgICAgICAgICAgICBFeHBpcmVzIEp1bHkgMTcsIDIwMDggICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgW1BhZ2UgMjRdIAoMCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C858F0.5D2E0DD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam ------_=_NextPart_001_01C858F0.5D2E0DD5-- From sam-bounces@irtf.org Tue Jan 22 03:27:33 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHETk-0006il-H8; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:27:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHETj-0006ie-8p for sam@irtf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:27:31 -0500 Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp ([133.183.100.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHETg-0002Mh-NK for sam@irtf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:27:31 -0500 Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com ([157.8.1.145]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kc-maile13) with ESMTP id m0M8RPYD017099 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:27:25 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlb2) with ESMTP id m0M8RPI13301 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:27:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from prdcm-mail.prdcm.panasonic.com.my (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/kc-maili06) with ESMTP id m0M8RNI25711 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:27:23 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:27:21 +0800 Message-ID: <769E965D82021346949AF2BC41D8EAB77FC34E@prdcm-mail.prdcm.panasonic.com.my> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-lim-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt Thread-Index: AchQbZGABF0/AHwsQvKy2UR5NCue+QIglB3gAPe5oYA= From: "Lim Boon Ping" To: "sam" X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Subject: [SAM] I-D ACTION:draft-lim-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt X-BeenThere: sam@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "For use by members of the Scalable Adaptive Multicast \(SAM\) RG" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sam-bounces@irtf.org Dear all, ---- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : ALM API for Topology Management and Network Layer Transparent Multimedia Transport=20 Author(s) : B. Lim, K. Ettikan Filename : draft-lim-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2008-1-21 =09 This document defines and describes the topology management and=20 network layer transparent middleware wrapper API for ALM forwarding=20 table construction, distribution and multimedia transport over=20 IPv4/IPv6 for unicast and xcast. =20 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lim-irtf-sam-alm-api-00.txt Regards, Boon Ping -----Original Message----- From: Lim Boon Ping [mailto:boonping.lim@my.panasonic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:05 PM To: Nobuo Kawaguchi; sam Cc: Tan Pek Yew (PSL) Subject: [SAM] draft-pkll-irtf-sam-alm-api-00 Dear all, Inline with the goal of SAM RG to develop a SAM framework, we have made = an attempt to define a set of wrapper API for ALM topology management and network layer transparent content distribution. Attached in this email = is the initial draft. Abstract: This document defines and describes the topology management = and network layer transparent middleware wrapper API for ALM forwarding table construction, distribution and multimedia content transportation = over IPv4/IPv6 for unicast and xcast. The proposed draft is intended to compliment SAMTK which proposed a = standard set of API for Group Management and Traffic Management, leaving the = Topology Management module undefined. Additionally, this draft also describes = flexible protocol selection mechanism as proposed in SAMTK's Traffic Management = API. It is understood that defining a set of common API which cover all ALM protocols is a challenging task. We hope this draft will be a starting = point for further discussion to achieve SAM's goal, common ALM framework. Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated. Thank you! Regards, Boon Ping _______________________________________________ SAM mailing list SAM@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sam