From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 6 23:37:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB7121E804E for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:37:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.239 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.239 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.241, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YU2snBCQojXk for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD62721F85B7 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:37:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=4409; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331105867; x=1332315467; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject; bh=8y87MEBX0/mLqkz2paRNcKgTbHVKyY5+i9oFXy7bNjY=; b=ku1lYDtmHakNE5V7E73XtXHf3AS+OJ0E58BQL+K3T9xUnXUAy9jiERZL JLAIl/YCcj/Qa0k7looE3G/6j3u7X0rJ55OO5flvU0VRBoKvB6wkn/umI MBQI3UWDzF3+nTY4CCc2whvEXPzGAJl7t0crfDDmsSNmOCrSKaWCfBGBy k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EADsPV0+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABChUGvV4EHghYBEFUBHx0WCwILAwIBAgFYAQcBARcHh2WgVwGMZ4pFiiaDKIIMgRYElT+QFoJkgVQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,544,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="131538474" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2012 07:37:46 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-81-19.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-81-19.cisco.com [10.55.81.19]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q277bkwq003909; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 07:37:46 GMT Message-ID: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 08:37:46 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090006000802080606030001" Cc: "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 07:37:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090006000802080606030001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone, I look forward to working with you all to hold a successful BoF. Following on from Peter's earlier message, let's start structuring an agenda for the BoF. Here's my first swing: * Agenda Bashing (3 minutes) * Introduction – a clear and crisp problem statement that includes: o What is the provisioning problem that SCIM is trying to solve? o *and why is it importan*t? o Why isn't attribute exchange in SAML sufficient? (with example, please) o Why not SPML/XACML? Perhaps there are circumstances when SPML/XACML are appropriate and when they are not? Discuss. o What problems are you *not* trying to solve? e.g., limit your scope. * Overview of proposed starting point: SCIM and how it answers the above problem statement o Include document structure * Discussion o Is the problem important? o Is the problem well scoped? o Is the work appropriate for the IETF? o Do we understand how scim will differentiate against existing work? o Who are the volunteers to- + be editors for the various documents? + review the documents? o Is there implementer interest? o Should a working group be formed? * Brief introduction and discussion of a charter (if appropriate) I think we can anticipate substantial participation from both the application and security areas in this BoF. Can we please have volunteers for the introduction and for the overview of the solution? The chairs will lead the discussion and introduction to the charter. Eliot --------------090006000802080606030001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone,

I look forward to working with you all to hold a successful BoF.  Following on from Peter's earlier message, let's start structuring an agenda for the BoF.  Here's my first swing:

  • Agenda Bashing (3 minutes)
  • Introduction – a clear and crisp problem statement that includes:
    • What is the provisioning problem that SCIM is trying to solve?
    • and why is it important?
    • Why isn't attribute exchange in SAML sufficient?  (with example, please)
    • Why not SPML/XACML?  Perhaps there are circumstances when SPML/XACML are appropriate and when they are not?  Discuss.
    • What problems are you not trying to solve?  e.g., limit your scope.
  • Overview of proposed starting point: SCIM and how it answers the above problem statement
    • Include document structure
  • Discussion
    • Is the problem important?
    • Is the problem well scoped?
    • Is the work appropriate for the IETF?
    • Do we understand how scim will differentiate against existing work?
    • Who are the volunteers to-
      • be editors for the various documents?
      • review the documents?
    • Is there implementer interest?
    • Should a working group be formed?
  • Brief introduction and discussion of a charter (if appropriate)

I think we can anticipate substantial participation from both the application and security areas in this BoF.

Can we please have volunteers for the introduction and for the overview of the solution?  The chairs will lead the discussion and introduction to the charter.

Eliot



--------------090006000802080606030001-- From Paul.Lipton@ca.com Thu Mar 8 13:27:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8F321F86B9 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:27:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HHoBgugnfATt for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from na3sys009aog106.obsmtp.com (na3sys009aob106.obsmtp.com [74.125.149.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07B421F86B6 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from USILMS190.ca.com ([141.202.246.44]) (using TLSv1) by na3sys009aob106.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1kkSuQOLkKHBzne46sVw2qJ118wav0V@postini.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:27:43 PST Received: from USILMS173.ca.com (141.202.6.23) by USILMS190.ca.com (141.202.246.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:27:36 -0500 Received: from USILMS111B.ca.com ([169.254.8.29]) by usilms173.ca.com ([141.202.6.23]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:27:36 -0500 From: "Lipton, Paul C" To: Eliot Lear , "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs Thread-Index: AQHM/DU1HXiglp8q/UmzZhCEf2MVjJZg6wRg Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:27:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.129.27.207] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 21:27:44 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGhhcyBiZWVuIGxpdmVseSBkaXNjdXNzaW9u IHJlZ2FyZGluZyBlbGVtZW50cyBvZiB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgY2hhcnRlciBvdmVyIHRoZSBsYXN0 IGZldyB3ZWVrcy4gVGhhdCBzYWlkOyBpdCBpcyByYXRoZXIgaGFyZCB0byBmaW5kIHRoZSBsYXRl c3QgaXRlcmF0aW9uIGluIGl0cyB0b3RhbGl0eS4gTGFzdCBwbGFjZSBJIHNhdyBzb21ldGhpbmcg bGlrZSB0aGF0IHdhcyBhdCAoMSkuIFdvdWxkIHNvbWVib2R5IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSBh IHBvaW50ZXIgdG8gd2hlcmUgdGhlIGxhdGVzdCBwcm9wb3NhbCBtaWdodCBiZSBwb3N0ZWQ/IA0K DQooMSkgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL3NjaW0vY3VycmVudC9t c2cwMDAwMy5odG1sDQoNClRoYW5rcywNClBhdWwgDQrCoA0KUGF1bCBMaXB0b24NCkNBIFRlY2hu b2xvZ2llcw0KVlAsIEluZHVzdHJ5IFN0YW5kYXJkcyBhbmQgT3BlbiBTb3VyY2UgDQpNZW1iZXIs IENBIENvdW5jaWwgZm9yIFRlY2huaWNhbCBFeGNlbGxlbmNlIA0KT2ZmaWNlIFBob25lOiArMSA2 MDkgNTgzLTk3MTgNCk1vYmlsZTogKzEgMjY3IDk4Ny02ODg3DQpFbWFpbDogcGF1bC5saXB0b25A Y2EuY29tDQoNCg0KRnJvbTogc2NpbS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86c2NpbS1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRWxpb3QgTGVhcg0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBN YXJjaCAwNywgMjAxMiAyOjM4IEFNDQpUbzogc2NpbUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KQ2M6IFN0ZXZlbiBNLiBC ZWxsb3Zpbg0KU3ViamVjdDogW3NjaW1dIGdyZWV0aW5ncyBmcm9tIG9uZSBvZiB5b3VyIEJvRiBj aGFpcnMNCg0KSGkgZXZlcnlvbmUsDQoNCkkgbG9vayBmb3J3YXJkIHRvIHdvcmtpbmcgd2l0aCB5 b3UgYWxsIHRvIGhvbGQgYSBzdWNjZXNzZnVsIEJvRi7CoCBGb2xsb3dpbmcgb24gZnJvbSBQZXRl cidzIGVhcmxpZXIgbWVzc2FnZSwgbGV0J3Mgc3RhcnQgc3RydWN0dXJpbmcgYW4gYWdlbmRhIGZv ciB0aGUgQm9GLsKgIEhlcmUncyBteSBmaXJzdCBzd2luZzoNCuKAoiBBZ2VuZGEgQmFzaGluZyAo MyBtaW51dGVzKQ0K4oCiIEludHJvZHVjdGlvbiDigJMgYSBjbGVhciBhbmQgY3Jpc3AgcHJvYmxl bSBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgdGhhdCBpbmNsdWRlczoNCm8gV2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgcHJvdmlzaW9uaW5nIHBy b2JsZW0gdGhhdCBTQ0lNIGlzIHRyeWluZyB0byBzb2x2ZT8gDQpvIGFuZCB3aHkgaXMgaXQgaW1w b3J0YW50Pw0KbyBXaHkgaXNuJ3QgYXR0cmlidXRlIGV4Y2hhbmdlIGluIFNBTUwgc3VmZmljaWVu dD/CoCAod2l0aCBleGFtcGxlLCBwbGVhc2UpDQpvIFdoeSBub3QgU1BNTC9YQUNNTD/CoCBQZXJo YXBzIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBjaXJjdW1zdGFuY2VzIHdoZW4gU1BNTC9YQUNNTCBhcmUgYXBwcm9wcmlh dGUgYW5kIHdoZW4gdGhleSBhcmUgbm90P8KgIERpc2N1c3MuDQpvIFdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMgYXJl IHlvdSBub3QgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHNvbHZlP8KgIGUuZy4sIGxpbWl0IHlvdXIgc2NvcGUuDQrigKIg T3ZlcnZpZXcgb2YgcHJvcG9zZWQgc3RhcnRpbmcgcG9pbnQ6IFNDSU0gYW5kIGhvdyBpdCBhbnN3 ZXJzIHRoZSBhYm92ZSBwcm9ibGVtIHN0YXRlbWVudA0KbyBJbmNsdWRlIGRvY3VtZW50IHN0cnVj dHVyZQ0K4oCiIERpc2N1c3Npb24NCm8gSXMgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0gaW1wb3J0YW50Pw0KbyBJcyB0 aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB3ZWxsIHNjb3BlZD8NCm8gSXMgdGhlIHdvcmsgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgZm9yIHRo ZSBJRVRGPw0KbyBEbyB3ZSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGhvdyBzY2ltIHdpbGwgZGlmZmVyZW50aWF0ZSBh Z2FpbnN0IGV4aXN0aW5nIHdvcms/DQpvIFdobyBhcmUgdGhlIHZvbHVudGVlcnMgdG8tDQrigKIg YmUgZWRpdG9ycyBmb3IgdGhlIHZhcmlvdXMgZG9jdW1lbnRzPw0K4oCiIHJldmlldyB0aGUgZG9j dW1lbnRzPw0KbyBJcyB0aGVyZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlciBpbnRlcmVzdD8NCm8gU2hvdWxkIGEgd29y a2luZyBncm91cCBiZSBmb3JtZWQ/DQrigKIgQnJpZWYgaW50cm9kdWN0aW9uIGFuZCBkaXNjdXNz aW9uIG9mIGEgY2hhcnRlciAoaWYgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUpDQpJIHRoaW5rIHdlIGNhbiBhbnRpY2lw YXRlIHN1YnN0YW50aWFsIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpb24gZnJvbSBib3RoIHRoZSBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBh bmQgc2VjdXJpdHkgYXJlYXMgaW4gdGhpcyBCb0YuDQpDYW4gd2UgcGxlYXNlIGhhdmUgdm9sdW50 ZWVycyBmb3IgdGhlIGludHJvZHVjdGlvbiBhbmQgZm9yIHRoZSBvdmVydmlldyBvZiB0aGUgc29s dXRpb24/wqAgVGhlIGNoYWlycyB3aWxsIGxlYWQgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYW5kIGludHJvZHVj dGlvbiB0byB0aGUgY2hhcnRlci4NCkVsaW90DQoNCg== From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 8 15:22:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C13921F864C for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:22:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 77ILDSnRGBcg for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706F321E802D for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by ghbg16 with SMTP id g16so666984ghb.31 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 15:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.156.34 with SMTP id l22mr12714125yhk.118.1331248919885; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 15:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.241.61] (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g7sm8733162yhm.5.2012.03.08.15.21.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 08 Mar 2012 15:21:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B366547-5292-4FB6-BABD-010A29A3F837"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 17:21:56 -0600 Message-Id: References: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnjhWkFukAvUya3GMa+WsmEyIRbiBdJCsPRwe1WH1UtwlFYQSe/213F/BZU6dWaxXjjojiN Cc: scim@ietf.org, "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 23:22:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B366547-5292-4FB6-BABD-010A29A3F837 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E96DC92B-BB59-4D3C-96BE-26DE07C53377" --Apple-Mail=_E96DC92B-BB59-4D3C-96BE-26DE07C53377 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:37 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi everyone, >=20 > I look forward to working with you all to hold a successful BoF. = Following on from Peter's earlier message, let's start structuring an = agenda for the BoF. Here's my first swing: >=20 > Agenda Bashing (3 minutes) > Introduction =96 a clear and crisp problem statement that includes: > What is the provisioning problem that SCIM is trying to solve?=20 > and why is it important? > Why isn't attribute exchange in SAML sufficient? (with example, = please) > Why not SPML/XACML? Perhaps there are circumstances when SPML/XACML = are appropriate and when they are not? Discuss. > What problems are you not trying to solve? e.g., limit your scope. > Overview of proposed starting point: SCIM and how it answers the above = problem statement > Include document structure > Discussion > Is the problem important? > Is the problem well scoped? > Is the work appropriate for the IETF? > Do we understand how scim will differentiate against existing work? > Who are the volunteers to- > be editors for the various documents? > review the documents? > Is there implementer interest? > Should a working group be formed? > Brief introduction and discussion of a charter (if appropriate) > I think we can anticipate substantial participation from both the = application and security areas in this BoF. > Can we please have volunteers for the introduction and for the = overview of the solution? The chairs will lead the discussion and = introduction to the charter. >=20 I'll volunteer to present the protocol and schema. Thanks, Trey > Eliot >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_E96DC92B-BB59-4D3C-96BE-26DE07C53377 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
=20 =20
Hi everyone,

I look forward to working with you all to hold a successful = BoF.  Following on from Peter's earlier message, let's start structuring an agenda for the BoF.  Here's my first swing:

  • Agenda Bashing (3 minutes)
  • Introduction =96 a clear and crisp problem statement that includes:
    • What is the provisioning problem that SCIM is trying to solve?
    • and why is it important?
    • Why isn't attribute exchange in SAML sufficient?  (with example, please)
    • Why not SPML/XACML?  Perhaps there are circumstances = when SPML/XACML are appropriate and when they are not?  = Discuss.
    • What problems are you not trying to solve?  = e.g., limit your scope.
  • Overview of proposed starting point: SCIM and how it answers the above problem statement
    • Include document structure
  • Discussion
    • Is the problem important?
    • Is the problem well scoped?
    • Is the work appropriate for the IETF?
    • Do we understand how scim will differentiate against existing work?
    • Who are the volunteers to-
      • be editors for the various documents?
      • review the documents?
    • Is there implementer interest?
    • Should a working group be formed?
  • Brief introduction and discussion of a charter (if appropriate)

I think we can anticipate substantial participation from = both the application and security areas in this BoF.

Can we please have volunteers for the introduction and for = the overview of the solution?  The chairs will lead the = discussion and introduction to the = charter.


I'll volunteer to = present the protocol and = schema.

Thanks,
Trey

Eliot



_______________________________________________
scim mailing = list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/scim

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3b2gbYFZy8f8u7BxfOq0heymKQmcUWoso6GLztFxph3g5SgAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_7B366547-5292-4FB6-BABD-010A29A3F837-- From moransar@cisco.com Thu Mar 8 19:30:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A028521F85A7 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:30:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dx62w-AhELnl for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBCA621F859F for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:30:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=4074; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331263827; x=1332473427; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=q0l2tyH76LJHeai8/Npj3Nzh7CT3A642f5jQ/j05lLQ=; b=NOF6vq1ldO1Cqzrs/+Ky1a87C1CXnyD2ewUVaI1/CS7taXY2oUQYDO4i WHvctMxiShKS6l+/9WBJxjda0v245WN6NYNmGfqpOyhzeXh+zzaJy7Y9U lW4Ua8wWgnENJIA/zIYIEI+CQH8pXiqUkLcnj8t8To+IX6RviDSMNKOtK o=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,555,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="64993615" Received: from rcdn-core2-5.cisco.com ([173.37.113.192]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2012 03:30:27 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core2-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q293URNv006951; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 03:30:27 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:30:27 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:30:25 -0600 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BED7C93D@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs Thread-Index: AQHM/DU1HXiglp8q/UmzZhCEf2MVjJZg6wRggAAD+vA= References: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Lipton, Paul C" , "Eliot Lear" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2012 03:30:27.0325 (UTC) FILETIME=[F88B62D0:01CCFDA4] Cc: "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 03:30:28 -0000 UGF1bCwNCg0KWW91IGFyZSBjb3JyZWN0LiBUaGVyZSBoYXMgYmVlbiBudW1iZXIgb2YgY2hhbmdl cyBhbmQgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgYW5kIGl0IGlzIGRlZmluaXRlbHkgdGltZSB0byByb2xsIHRoZW0g aW4uIEkgd2lsbCBjb21waWxlIHRoZW0gaW50byBhbiB1cGRhdGVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIHNlbmQg aXQgb3V0IHRoaXMgd2Vla2VuZC4NCg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpNb3J0ZXphDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2lu YWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBzY2ltLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpzY2lt LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBMaXB0b24sIFBhdWwgQw0KU2VudDogVGh1 cnNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDA4LCAyMDEyIDE6MjggUE0NClRvOiBFbGlvdCBMZWFyOyBzY2ltQGlldGYu b3JnDQpDYzogU3RldmVuIE0uIEJlbGxvdmluDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3NjaW1dIGdyZWV0aW5n cyBmcm9tIG9uZSBvZiB5b3VyIEJvRiBjaGFpcnMNCg0KSGkgYWxsLA0KDQpJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0 IHRoZXJlIGhhcyBiZWVuIGxpdmVseSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHJlZ2FyZGluZyBlbGVtZW50cyBvZiB0 aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgY2hhcnRlciBvdmVyIHRoZSBsYXN0IGZldyB3ZWVrcy4gVGhhdCBzYWlkOyBp dCBpcyByYXRoZXIgaGFyZCB0byBmaW5kIHRoZSBsYXRlc3QgaXRlcmF0aW9uIGluIGl0cyB0b3Rh bGl0eS4gTGFzdCBwbGFjZSBJIHNhdyBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSB0aGF0IHdhcyBhdCAoMSkuIFdv dWxkIHNvbWVib2R5IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSBhIHBvaW50ZXIgdG8gd2hlcmUgdGhlIGxh dGVzdCBwcm9wb3NhbCBtaWdodCBiZSBwb3N0ZWQ/IA0KDQooMSkgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL3NjaW0vY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMDAwMy5odG1sDQoNClRoYW5rcywN ClBhdWwgDQrCoA0KUGF1bCBMaXB0b24NCkNBIFRlY2hub2xvZ2llcw0KVlAsIEluZHVzdHJ5IFN0 YW5kYXJkcyBhbmQgT3BlbiBTb3VyY2UNCk1lbWJlciwgQ0EgQ291bmNpbCBmb3IgVGVjaG5pY2Fs IEV4Y2VsbGVuY2UgT2ZmaWNlIFBob25lOiArMSA2MDkgNTgzLTk3MTgNCk1vYmlsZTogKzEgMjY3 IDk4Ny02ODg3DQpFbWFpbDogcGF1bC5saXB0b25AY2EuY29tDQoNCg0KRnJvbTogc2NpbS1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86c2NpbS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2Yg RWxpb3QgTGVhcg0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAwNywgMjAxMiAyOjM4IEFNDQpUbzog c2NpbUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KQ2M6IFN0ZXZlbiBNLiBCZWxsb3Zpbg0KU3ViamVjdDogW3NjaW1dIGdy ZWV0aW5ncyBmcm9tIG9uZSBvZiB5b3VyIEJvRiBjaGFpcnMNCg0KSGkgZXZlcnlvbmUsDQoNCkkg bG9vayBmb3J3YXJkIHRvIHdvcmtpbmcgd2l0aCB5b3UgYWxsIHRvIGhvbGQgYSBzdWNjZXNzZnVs IEJvRi7CoCBGb2xsb3dpbmcgb24gZnJvbSBQZXRlcidzIGVhcmxpZXIgbWVzc2FnZSwgbGV0J3Mg c3RhcnQgc3RydWN0dXJpbmcgYW4gYWdlbmRhIGZvciB0aGUgQm9GLsKgIEhlcmUncyBteSBmaXJz dCBzd2luZzoNCuKAoiBBZ2VuZGEgQmFzaGluZyAoMyBtaW51dGVzKQ0K4oCiIEludHJvZHVjdGlv biDigJMgYSBjbGVhciBhbmQgY3Jpc3AgcHJvYmxlbSBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgdGhhdCBpbmNsdWRlczoN Cm8gV2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgcHJvdmlzaW9uaW5nIHByb2JsZW0gdGhhdCBTQ0lNIGlzIHRyeWluZyB0 byBzb2x2ZT8gDQpvIGFuZCB3aHkgaXMgaXQgaW1wb3J0YW50Pw0KbyBXaHkgaXNuJ3QgYXR0cmli dXRlIGV4Y2hhbmdlIGluIFNBTUwgc3VmZmljaWVudD/CoCAod2l0aCBleGFtcGxlLCBwbGVhc2Up IG8gV2h5IG5vdCBTUE1ML1hBQ01MP8KgIFBlcmhhcHMgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGNpcmN1bXN0YW5jZXMg d2hlbiBTUE1ML1hBQ01MIGFyZSBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBhbmQgd2hlbiB0aGV5IGFyZSBub3Q/wqAg RGlzY3Vzcy4NCm8gV2hhdCBwcm9ibGVtcyBhcmUgeW91IG5vdCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gc29sdmU/wqAg ZS5nLiwgbGltaXQgeW91ciBzY29wZS4NCuKAoiBPdmVydmlldyBvZiBwcm9wb3NlZCBzdGFydGlu ZyBwb2ludDogU0NJTSBhbmQgaG93IGl0IGFuc3dlcnMgdGhlIGFib3ZlIHByb2JsZW0gc3RhdGVt ZW50IG8gSW5jbHVkZSBkb2N1bWVudCBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUg4oCiIERpc2N1c3Npb24gbyBJcyB0aGUg cHJvYmxlbSBpbXBvcnRhbnQ/DQpvIElzIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIHdlbGwgc2NvcGVkPw0KbyBJcyB0 aGUgd29yayBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBmb3IgdGhlIElFVEY/DQpvIERvIHdlIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgaG93 IHNjaW0gd2lsbCBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYXRlIGFnYWluc3QgZXhpc3Rpbmcgd29yaz8NCm8gV2hvIGFy ZSB0aGUgdm9sdW50ZWVycyB0by0NCuKAoiBiZSBlZGl0b3JzIGZvciB0aGUgdmFyaW91cyBkb2N1 bWVudHM/DQrigKIgcmV2aWV3IHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudHM/DQpvIElzIHRoZXJlIGltcGxlbWVudGVy IGludGVyZXN0Pw0KbyBTaG91bGQgYSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGJlIGZvcm1lZD8NCuKAoiBCcmll ZiBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gYW5kIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgYSBjaGFydGVyIChpZiBhcHByb3ByaWF0 ZSkgSSB0aGluayB3ZSBjYW4gYW50aWNpcGF0ZSBzdWJzdGFudGlhbCBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uIGZy b20gYm90aCB0aGUgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gYW5kIHNlY3VyaXR5IGFyZWFzIGluIHRoaXMgQm9GLg0K Q2FuIHdlIHBsZWFzZSBoYXZlIHZvbHVudGVlcnMgZm9yIHRoZSBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gYW5kIGZv ciB0aGUgb3ZlcnZpZXcgb2YgdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uP8KgIFRoZSBjaGFpcnMgd2lsbCBsZWFkIHRo ZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGFuZCBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gdG8gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIuDQpFbGlvdA0KDQpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0Kc2NpbSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCnNjaW1AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vc2NpbQ0K From moransar@cisco.com Thu Mar 8 19:32:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CF921F85AF for ; 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X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,555,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="64993892" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2012 03:32:37 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com [72.163.63.8]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q293WbWM017161; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 03:32:37 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:32:37 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CCFDA5.45D2474E" Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:32:36 -0600 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BED7C940@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] greetings from one of your BoF chairs Thread-Index: Acz8NTVOaI3+PDRFSvGGAcszUEEEEwAxHQKg References: <4F57104A.5000607@cisco.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Eliot Lear" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2012 03:32:37.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[4627DAF0:01CCFDA5] Cc: "Steven M. 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDWhoooUPjt2 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097AA21F854F for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5214; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331529471; x=1332739071; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=+3ew+NWAmaf90n1EngbscqKrDMDulOw3400Et9/MJyg=; b=ceiObCmi0ccSbYLEM1jEc4o4B5d3mMqWKUJMpcI4dtiW3eA6BX2I+TkQ F6Kx9fYfQ8XZ79x7Cc+uctPVTwunF4D43XJM1SA0/RTVjiCseOrFHppEf Gzn/oCSWx0lEj54gbPR1tcaVxIlifhlGmZ+mvBLkQ664MINoc8vMiykOb Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAG6GXU+tJV2c/2dsb2JhbABCgkWzB4EHggsBBBIBCREDWwEqBhgHVwEEGxqHaJozgScBngaNX4I/YwSIVJ0bgwE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,569,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="62523179" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2C5HoDs006953 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:17:50 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78240031" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:17:50 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Deliverable section of charter Thread-Index: Ac0AB574rBl4rh3PS6KNwudUQoR5/g== From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50.0552 (UTC) FILETIME=[783F0D80:01CD000F] Subject: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:17:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78240031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the charter. Here is a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. Consider the dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list of documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical timeline to these: =20 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping 3/2013 Re-charter discussion =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78240031 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eliot = suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the charter. Here is a = suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. Consider = the dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list = of documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical = timeline to these:

 

5/2012    Initial problem statement = draft

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM = core schema

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM = restful interface draft

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM = SAML bindings draft

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM = LDAP mapping draft

9/2012    WGLC SCIM core = schema

9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful = interface

9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML = bindings

9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP = mapping

3/2013    Re-charter = discussion

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78240031-- From moransar@cisco.com Sun Mar 11 22:17:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E1221F8597 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QpRA0ZmCBudg for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C2221F85C4 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=28917; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331529472; x=1332739072; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=e86U+2OHDBv/RFwFvvQ/85D3uA72m8cFgr2qh6PfcKE=; b=Ij2Ut4x10Uhj5YqIEIvUp8tzicZ9O0oVLIPJUmieknnLdq2OvXZD98Z2 qgT3QPiYByNZCiAC58Oc2gXNcP8ZQMukZ4lPOUbSD73HZRh6ZB8w0XXZz exuR1l2ShCBJWq0AXxEqUGL513P8JM8BRUWeypnGK0Hhk5nw0kb0T3XFd o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAG6GXU+tJV2d/2dsb2JhbAA5CYJFsweBB4ILAQQBAQEPAQkRAz4dASoCBBABBwcmMQEEEwgBGYdoC5oogScBngaKIA0IhWljBIhUnRuDAYE+ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,569,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="65541478" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 05:17:51 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com [72.163.63.9]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2C5HpcR002552 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:17:51 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:17:50 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78704BD1" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:16:44 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA076@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Updated draft charter Thread-Index: Ac0ADjVhA59HYm/FR+SHlPGpm8HCRQ== From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50.0987 (UTC) FILETIME=[78816DB0:01CD000F] Subject: [scim] Updated draft charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:17:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78704BD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attached is the updated charter based on the discussion so far. I believe I have addressed all comments with the exception of part of Phil Hunt's comment which I just sent a reply to. =20 Also I started another thread to discuss deliverables section of the charter. Once we discuss that, I will add that section. =20 Please review and send any suggestion/correction. =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 =20 Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) --------------------------------------- =20 Charter =20 Current Status: BOF Approved =20 BoF Chair(s): Steve Bellovi Eliot Lear =20 Applications Area Director(s): Pete Resnick =20 Peter Saint-Andre =20 Mailing Lists: General Discussion: scim@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html =20 Description of Working Group: =20 The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier. =20 The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In addition the working group may consider including managing device identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. =20 The group will work to create an IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based applications using SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info) as starting work. =20 User, device, and service authentication and authorization (policy/entitlement) are out of scope of this working group charter. =20 SCIM 1.0 consists of: * Schema definition for identity related objects * Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity objects * Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and assertions * Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) =20 The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for consideration as a Proposed Standard that will evolve and enhance the SCIM 1.0 work by: * Extending the specification per the working group charter * Improving the terminology used * Embodying good security practices, documenting gaps in its capabilities, and proposing a path forward for addressing the gaps * Promoting interoperability * Providing guidelines for extensibility =20 SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. =20 The Working Group should consider: * Implementer experience * The end-user experience, including internationalization * Existing uses of SCIM * Ability to achieve broad implementation * Ability to address broader use cases than those considered by the original authors * Additional functions or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer feedback * Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC =20 The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in hand. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78704BD1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Attached is the updated charter based on the = discussion so far. I believe I have addressed all comments with the = exception of part of Phil Hunt’s comment which I just sent a reply = to.

 

Also I started another = thread to discuss deliverables section of the charter. Once we discuss = that, I will add that section.

 

Please review and send = any suggestion/correction.

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

 

Simple Cloud Identity Management = (SCIM)

---------------------------------------

 

Charter

 

Current Status: BOF Approved

 

BoF Chair(s):

     Steve = Bellovi

     = Eliot Lear

 

Applications Area Director(s):

     Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> =

     Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im><= /span>

 

Mailing Lists:

     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org

     To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/scim

     = Archive:      = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html<= /o:p>

 

Description of Working Group:

 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) = specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in = cloud based applications and services easier.

 

The specification suite seeks to build upon experience = with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on = simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing = authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to = reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by = providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding = documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard = protocols. In addition the working group may consider including managing = device identities as part of the work adopted by the working = group.

 

The group will work to create an IETF technology for = management of user identities in cloud-based applications using SCIM 1.0 = specification produced under the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info) as = starting work.

 

User, device, and service authentication and = authorization (policy/entitlement) are out of scope of this working = group charter.

 

SCIM 1.0 consists of:

·         = Schema definition for identity related = objects

·         = Protocol definition for accessing and managing the = identity objects

·         = Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup = Language (SAML) messages and assertions

·         = Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access = Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519)

 

The Working Group will produce one or more documents = suitable for consideration as a Proposed Standard that will evolve and = enhance the SCIM 1.0 work by:

·         = Extending the specification per the working group = charter

·         = Improving the terminology used

·         = Embodying good security practices, documenting gaps in = its capabilities, and proposing a path forward for addressing the = gaps

·         = Promoting interoperability

·         = Providing guidelines for = extensibility

 

SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The = working group will strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 = specification. Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted = if the group determines changes are required to meet the group's = technical objectives and the group clearly documents the reasons for = making them.

 

The Working Group should = consider:

·         = Implementer experience

·         = The end-user experience, including = internationalization

·         = Existing uses of SCIM

·         = Ability to achieve broad = implementation

·         = Ability to address broader use cases than those = considered by the original authors

·         = Additional functions or extensions that are needed to = address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer = feedback

·         = Work done by other standard bodies as input to the = process such as OASIS Provisioning TC

 

The working group will focus on adapting the core = technology first but work on extensions will be considered after the = core work is well in hand.

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.78704BD1-- From moransar@cisco.com Sun Mar 11 22:17:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB7921F854F for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xBujPYl3VWdc for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5F021F85C2 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:17:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=37340; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331529471; x=1332739071; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=tkfJoph0hthO67ER5wemc0D5e8iHORbH6jlUGjPyJrQ=; b=mwZFK5aH20cj/XGmP+nVSW777iH0GyHbKZewwexCKw4QP6SJ1FbjracC yw+acTkKmb/6EZc34b0E4H/GRJ3cLwVsqnVsYlYNiLdKiISuP3hl6S4Z9 f3oVrANbXsMxviePWcVbOJXgr6AOn+2px0mVI59feg0//PViQmeSnFZS2 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsFACeGXU+tJXHB/2dsb2JhbAA4CYJSqhQBiHKBB4IJAQEBBAEBAQ8BCREDJRkbAgEIBwoBAgEBAQsCBAULAQYBBgEmHwMGCAEBBAESCAEZh2gLn2gBliCKIA0Igx6CS2MEiFSdG4MBgT4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,569,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="65567079" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com [72.163.62.139]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2C5HoJM031064; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:17:50 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.77C4A1A9" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:17:49 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA074@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Porposed charter Thread-Index: AczyglHA8kR+RAdSS1yBVdi9/jN2LANgHPcg References: <8F20CA41-B61E-4EE0-B801-F08F9CD48444@oracle.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Phil Hunt" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Mar 2012 05:17:50.0040 (UTC) FILETIME=[77F0ED80:01CD000F] Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:17:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.77C4A1A9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good suggestion Phil. I added a new item under the WG consideration section: "Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC" but I didn't add any specific items that should be considered. I think it would be best to leave that to the WG to study the work you referenced and decide what items should be considered. =20 Do you think that is sufficient? =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:25 PM To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter =20 Morteza,=20 =20 Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting soon! =20 Regarding the charter, I propose that the working group also adopt the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input material: * A RESTful Binding to SPML - http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/restpml * SIMPLEST: A standard schema for Identity and Access Management - http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest These documents can provide some additional implementation insight into the final SCIM WG product. =20 Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there are some additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM 1.0, hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible way.=20 =20 The key items are: * Support for multiple targets within a SCIM service provider * A change to schema introducing a Person entity which for example is associated with one or more User entities. =20 The first item arises out of some practical deployment architecture issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that arises regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with individuals -- especially when they have more than one User account. For those that want to read ahead now, I suggest reading: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest#AccountManagement.3ATarget andAccount =20 I propose to present on these two topics at the BoF and then based on feedback can contribute the content in draft form into the WG for its consideration. =20 Regards, =20 Phil =20 @independentid www.independentid.com =20 phil.hunt@oracle.com =20 ________________________________ * From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" > * To: > * Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:32:58 -0600 * List-id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF > ________________________________ Hi folks, =20 Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the cloud-directory mailing list. Please review and send your comments. =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 =20 Simplified Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) -------------------------------------------------------- =20 Charter =20 Current Status: BOF Request =20 Chair(s): TBD1 TBD2 =20 Applications Area Director(s): Pete Resnick > Peter Saint-Andre =20 Mailing Lists: General Discussion: scim at ietf.org =20 To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html =20 Description of Working Group: =20 The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier. =20 The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. =20 The group will work to adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info ) as an IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based applications. =20 SCIM 1.0 consists of: * Schema definition for identity related objects * Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity objects * Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and assertions * Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) =20 The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for consideration as a Proposed Standard that will: * Improve the terminology used * Embody good security practices, document gaps in its capabilities, and propose a path forward for addressing the gaps * Promote interoperability * Provide guidelines for extensibility =20 SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. =20 The Working Group should consider: * Implementer experience * The end-user experience, including internationalization * Existing uses of SCIM * Ability to achieve broad implementation * Ability to address broader use cases than those considered by the original authors * Additional functions or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer feedback =20 The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in hand. =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.77C4A1A9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good suggestion Phil.  I added a new item under the WG = consideration section: “Work done by other standard bodies as = input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC” but I = didn’t add any specific items that should be considered. I think = it would be best to leave that to the WG to study the work you = referenced and decide what items should be = considered.

 

Do you think that is sufficient?

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

From:= = Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, = February 23, 2012 3:25 PM
To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari = (moransar)
Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed = charter

 

Morteza, 

 

Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting = soon!

 

Regarding the charter, I propose that the working = group also adopt the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input = material:

These documents can provide some additional = implementation insight into the final SCIM WG = product.

 

Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there = are some additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM = 1.0, hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible = way. 

 

The key items are:

* Support for multiple targets within a SCIM service = provider

* A change to = schema introducing a Person entity which for example is associated with = one or more User entities.

 

The first item arises out of some practical deployment = architecture issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that = arises regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with = individuals -- especially when they have more than one User account. For = those that want to read ahead now, I suggest = reading:

 

I = propose to present on these two topics at the BoF and then based on = feedback can contribute the content in draft form into the WG for its = consideration.

 

Regards,

 

Phil

 

@independentid

phil.hunt@oracle.com<= /p>

 

Hi = folks,

 <= /o:p>

Here is the = proposed charter as we discussed over the cloud-directory mailing list. = Please review and send your comments.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Cheers,=

Morteza=

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Simplified Cloud = Identity Management (SCIM)

-----------------------= ---------------------------------

 

Charter

 

Current Status: BOF = Request

 

Chair(s):

    = ; TBD1

    = ; TBD2

 

Applications Area = Director(s):

    =  Pete Resnick <presnick at qualcomm.com>

    = ; Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>

 

Mailing = Lists:

    = ; General Discussion: scim at ietf.org

    = ; To Subscribe:     https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/scim

    = ; = Archive:           = ;    = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html

 

Description of Working = Group:

 

The Simple Cloud = Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing = user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services = easier.

 

The specification = suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and = deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and = integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and = privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user = management operations by providing a common user schema and extension = model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging = this schema using standard protocols.

 

The group will work to = adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web Foundation = framework (http://www.simplecloud.info) = as an IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based = applications.

 

SCIM 1.0 consists = of:

·      = ;   Schema definition for = identity related objects

·      = ;   Protocol definition = for accessing and managing the identity objects

·      = ;   Binding of SCIM schema = to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and = assertions

·      = ;   Binding of SCIM schema = to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema = (RFC4519)

 

The Working Group will = produce one or more documents suitable for consideration as a Proposed = Standard that will:

·      = ;   Improve the = terminology used

·      = ;   Embody good security = practices, document gaps in its capabilities, and propose a path forward = for addressing the gaps

·      = ;   Promote = interoperability

·      = ;   Provide guidelines for = extensibility

 

SCIM 1.0 will be used = as the starting point. The working group will strive to retain backward = compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that are not backwards = compatible may be accepted if the group determines changes are required = to meet the group's technical objectives and the group clearly documents = the reasons for making them.

 

The Working Group = should consider:

·      = ;   Implementer = experience

·      = ;   The end-user = experience, including internationalization

·      = ;   Existing uses of = SCIM

·      = ;   Ability to achieve = broad implementation

·      = ;   Ability to address = broader use cases than those considered by the original = authors

·      = ;   Additional functions = or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, = cross-area review, and implementer feedback

 

The working group will = focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions will = be considered after the core work is well in hand.

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD000F.77C4A1A9-- From samuel@erdtman.se Sun Mar 11 23:56:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A4F11E8073 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3GeJekARLpdp for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E5B21F852D for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so3899762lag.31 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:56:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=UTmV3Q5PeqAizlJ6jcWyLGMOe5ktOTSFQ8ch6ay1w+o=; b=B6El7Qf24uQDrlrSqaRJ8VeDT/VmZX27Dr6p4IplPWc08GgvXzwMm6VXBFblHI4TU6 T9aDOO9jY4TcXDGG3+ikhK04QhE5+mkl/9rvhLw8eR8FnlxIQIYoFVSMLMw2HW/2Nd+M SiFEyWwhCKh9oYhatbFsGYSYXMS/yO2ljTQ3KvGeyrc12awYoWK/iPzRrjJ7s37cto5X XpxqH9V6i3G+csaENp+WWdZNFnCh9UyEuiADQ5xj4l1arnE8pBjiPe+0GMf8LdJ+NZfL 9htw7x75uC6K1zIx8KMTG2Ywcru8kjMPSaiMWSniAwP2o1gZQn9hZhWvojnAchKMcP1Q 7trQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.27.137 with SMTP id t9mr4030914lbg.88.1331535386912; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.41.33 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:56:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:56:26 +0100 Message-ID: From: Samuel Erdtman To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmXGtxYQMw3ClDZYnZhiASMSpAfDdk9Zlw26cuPve28Q8muOVdTLodMwpcVEVzc2w340Nm5 Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:56:29 -0000 Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? Cheers //Samuel On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the charter. Here= is > a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. Consider t= he > dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list of > documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical timeline to > these: > > > > 5/2012=A0=A0=A0 Initial problem statement draft > > 5/2012=A0=A0=A0 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema > > 5/2012=A0=A0=A0 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft > > 5/2012=A0=A0=A0 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft > > 5/2012=A0=A0=A0 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft > > 9/2012=A0=A0=A0 WGLC SCIM core schema > > 9/2012=A0=A0=A0 WGLC SCIM restful interface > > 9/2012=A0=A0=A0 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings > > 9/2012=A0=A0=A0 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping > > 3/2013=A0=A0=A0 Re-charter discussion > > > > > > Cheers, > > Morteza > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From lear@cisco.com Mon Mar 12 00:10:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D755C21F858D for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:10:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KjaPtWg-CGLK for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A2621F8531 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:10:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=1449; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331536236; x=1332745836; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PP43Byx/Zd058Jsda47w41leFxx+MKOVqgaa6ptqHMo=; b=lCqTjdUfGsPiVIsyTb7MZRcXwsP98vWTuWdhhUXaT1tNnHO4AD7PTUFy Tp6sQpFxpKBcOl3knoJ6DL3MC8i0zLm1N3zlTLadLqmQM6KjDz4n2mQiA aaY8Ph47FWt6BoF5WESjZG/N/ZAqBjQPNzIsH+V0eBcBXwd6B0gKA2uI8 4=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,570,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="131990706" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 07:10:34 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-80-253.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-80-253.cisco.com [10.55.80.253]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2C7AYOT010886; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:10:34 GMT Message-ID: <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:10:34 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Samuel Erdtman References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scim@ietf.org, "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:10:37 -0000 Do we have a draft volunteer? Eliot On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: > Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? > > Cheers > //Samuel > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) > wrote: >> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the charter. Here is >> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. Consider the >> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list of >> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical timeline to >> these: >> >> >> >> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >> >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >> >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >> >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >> >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >> >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >> >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >> >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >> >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >> >> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Morteza >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From phil.hunt@oracle.com Mon Mar 12 09:14:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A137421F875D for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.169, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pPBYQUuYZUqr for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF4C21F875A for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2CGESnX031693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:14:29 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2CGERMY009721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:14:28 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2CGEQa6010977; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:14:26 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.11] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:14:26 -0700 References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Phil Hunt Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:14:22 -0700 To: Eliot Lear X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F5E20E5.00CE,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: Samuel Erdtman , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:14:31 -0000 We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that are pr= esent in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to the ch= arter.=20 SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but there a= re major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting addresses.=20= Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or signific= antly change the core spec--though there may be some normative adjustments r= equired. I believe these are foundational requirements and need to be addres= sed now.=20 Phil On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: > Do we have a draft volunteer? >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>=20 >> Cheers >> //Samuel >>=20 >> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >> wrote: >>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the charter. Her= e is >>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. Consider t= he >>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list of >>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical timeline t= o >>> these: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>=20 >>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>=20 >>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>=20 >>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>=20 >>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>=20 >>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>=20 >>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>=20 >>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>=20 >>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>=20 >>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> Morteza >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From trey.drake@unboundid.com Mon Mar 12 09:29:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2632111E8097 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:29:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JVe-6QPBR1IW for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6279711E808F for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhpp34 with SMTP id p34so3133135yhp.31 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=lMbA7QLvvAWgsBjmb4cf/1e5AgQOkaLm7fA+HvD8c98=; b=CKhcfRnbjGoarQAhJsfWe1WOWSVlCGXFLUJPrTWnUNxxIikU2GUkfvSR3V+eH+R+Gh O6f5du3xoGGIdLUhKLnVoRFIfwDxnfYPluVfTQZIgQ3+2/w1JUFOU6fsACJt1XUYT/ku G6lhmKuyhUHRDeL1G4lFcksfr7XKlX9X6QTreMILuwoDTetn4SdYvo/6GaQzQN3FX/cK fGb7TVBimT5dxZwyirPjWDgAqwX9txf8HBpm4eMtp64SMgY/0IBFgIjiBgKkm8kQgaso v5jPUaga/UEyu26rHib66j8yqFjIzSGWn7HgsxzPbdlnOBrKLIekuF0hYF6yDYiAUXnW Lx9g== Received: by 10.60.4.199 with SMTP id m7mr7928694oem.65.1331569794906; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office-dhcp-253.unboundid.lab (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f2sm11391666oef.6.2012.03.12.09.29.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F33B9CDD-7EE4-4962-9895-B6663D8CCAD7"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:29:53 -0500 Message-Id: References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> To: Phil Hunt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQltGibT4Z3iKzDbLO/F/T851ZjcDTrduOXzGqJJpe0LUXtbasB7vOTJyULwcI6h2hRy1IYZ Cc: Samuel Erdtman , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" , Eliot Lear , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:29:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F33B9CDD-7EE4-4962-9895-B6663D8CCAD7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Phil, I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how = the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM = schema. A proposal pointing out: - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? = applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none)=20 - reasoning for change - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable = across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) Thanks, Trey On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: > We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that = are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 >=20 > I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to = the charter.=20 >=20 > SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but = there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting = addresses.=20 >=20 > Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or = significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative = adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements and = need to be addressed now.=20 >=20 > Phil >=20 > On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>> //Samuel >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> wrote: >>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the = charter. Here is >>>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. = Consider the >>>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list = of >>>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical = timeline to >>>> these: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>=20 >>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>=20 >>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>=20 >>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>=20 >>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>=20 >>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>=20 >>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>=20 >>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>=20 >>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>=20 >>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>>=20 >>>> Morteza >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_F33B9CDD-7EE4-4962-9895-B6663D8CCAD7 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIM9jCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX DTE3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVowgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSsw KQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFy 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np/g8PZ7UJ+5MYDtYs5SZCBn/LnM3GEpaNMTi9BgEkWS8/Fe3ThjqcfWXKTsqd7PL+kGg1OyHaKg FuY4ZuPXlnn1ANaaadVDXjboYto7n7UH4L/t5R7vkm+zuT7TK2yFNjq5y+UgZKhC79zicoHG2kO7 jiiy7hKUU11c/7dyFjuUMcOG1qcz9ND59xw8UGyJORkVwVQNi7mDn46nY2f2AOZVMk6uyj9ZzNbi b1mOBKCf3IttxMW+PmfmwPDFrNeY4gyzXA71sIsR16Mz1OMAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_F33B9CDD-7EE4-4962-9895-B6663D8CCAD7-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Mon Mar 12 09:58:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA7221F87A8 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EwDJ1VoF6NIk for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFD321F87B7 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2CGwhTC001333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:58:44 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2CGwg5E000043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:58:42 GMT Received: from abhmt107.oracle.com (abhmt107.oracle.com [141.146.116.59]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2CGwgto011860; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:58:42 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:58:41 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:58:40 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> To: Trey Drake X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F5E2B44.0097,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:58:46 -0000 Trey, I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we should = simply cite existing published materials as input rather then submitting = changes prior to formation. Having other sources of input does not = commit the WG to using the material, it simply indicates that the = material is being considered. I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not it = should fall within the initial charter. As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. = Then based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG = members (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the = WG formation. If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements externally = on my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to think about = the issue in greater detail prior to the meeting. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: > Phil, >=20 > I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how = the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM = schema. A proposal pointing out: >=20 > - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? = applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) > - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none)=20 > - reasoning for change > - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable = across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >=20 > Thanks, > Trey >=20 >=20 > On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >=20 >> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that = are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 >>=20 >> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to = the charter.=20 >>=20 >> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but = there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting = addresses.=20 >>=20 >> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or = significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative = adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements and = need to be addressed now.=20 >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>=20 >>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>=20 >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers >>>> //Samuel >>>>=20 >>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>> wrote: >>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the = charter. Here is >>>>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. = Consider the >>>>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list = of >>>>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical = timeline to >>>>> these: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>=20 >>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>=20 >>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>=20 >>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>=20 >>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>=20 >>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Morteza >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From lear@cisco.com Mon Mar 12 10:06:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2465421F881D for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PX0-oGdWGtFJ for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D41B21F880E for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=4825; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331572011; x=1332781611; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KZ44IX1AVwwA93VvWePo6k0HYrOSUf+ujZF6fUUToDQ=; b=ItiH0tDEyRPhLMdxHhJ6GA9yeubyv7HegbfC7yCeOPnQJHYKhpJ5ovJp pC6XWw4cLLjzYz89ttGVgKER173JN9gzDXuTgsxWXsPvBUD/qWZZ2qAm4 PtF1NRlfDRhSnR7akavV+OFVVKFeGaEktFSaAXKG5mTzvHRAvARKqnTOK 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAI4sXk+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABBhUSwIIEHggkBAQEEAQEBDwEQJiUGBAEQCxgCAgUWCwICCQMCAQIBFTAGDQEFAgEBHodoC591AYxrihqBL448gRYElUyQI4Jk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,572,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="132082750" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 17:06:48 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-80-253.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-80-253.cisco.com [10.55.80.253]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2CH6ljA021359; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:06:47 GMT Message-ID: <4F5E2D27.6060509@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:06:47 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scim@ietf.org, Trey Drake Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:06:53 -0000 Phil, I'm just saying that the scope of the WG cannot exceed the willingness of various folk to volunteer to do the work. Law of physics sort of thing. Eliot On 3/12/12 5:58 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Trey, > > I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we should simply cite existing published materials as input rather then submitting changes prior to formation. Having other sources of input does not commit the WG to using the material, it simply indicates that the material is being considered. > > I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not it should fall within the initial charter. > > As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. Then based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG members (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the WG formation. > > If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements externally on my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to think about the issue in greater detail prior to the meeting. > > Phil > > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com > > > > > > On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: > >> Phil, >> >> I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM schema. A proposal pointing out: >> >> - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) >> - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none) >> - reasoning for change >> - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >> >> Thanks, >> Trey >> >> >> On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >> >>> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'. >>> >>> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to the charter. >>> >>> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting addresses. >>> >>> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements and need to be addressed now. >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> >>>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>> >>>> Eliot >>>> >>>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> //Samuel >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the charter. Here is >>>>>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. Consider the >>>>>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list of >>>>>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical timeline to >>>>>> these: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>> >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>> >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>> >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>> >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>> >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>> >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>> >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>> >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>> >>>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Morteza >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From trey.drake@unboundid.com Mon Mar 12 10:10:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EB121F8624 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:10:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E+pKb7dUQMAO for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D4021F8713 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhpp34 with SMTP id p34so3182992yhp.31 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=M8WE+1osEAHmnighf571B7b7k8GStpizRKmmllnyDAk=; b=ac/TdRAJDlvNQGC7YPEFCU3ZyCbvG8m8brakmGtWb+KjHAVFa0gGhMN2rA9nRrMDA2 hqUf7vHBuSLqT74ylfgfXrGGhbpG0x/Ghwui6Cxx0AZB85IZJZXzFsdxgyPl43YTuyqE nhz3GGf0Tpbb6KjhwRv/dGOgAjJ8ktHBCnwzIqmrOz9S0wE0xwsBkp0X/Q++R6IHUN2D xiGtDnNAuPO4PUwU2c+ffr+iN7sbxYvvUNuzuiwl//ZLhyF40j+PzpZdM307+j3RCHfp pxw3a+bfMIo1ZS0OAv+q+biH8YVx2ruVQZW/W4mx7mjw8t9jJAAp4U8JhbvumOkTiDjF 4eSA== Received: by 10.60.4.199 with SMTP id m7mr8082303oem.65.1331572243864; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office-dhcp-253.unboundid.lab (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h7sm4930947oeh.9.2012.03.12.10.10.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9DBEDCA0-6522-43B2-93BD-1B56A409512A"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:10:41 -0500 Message-Id: References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> To: Phil Hunt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmKDZrwXfgW+XVAnHuKqWJ0q3Y7KJpe/BJIiVGQ00K0ys5Ih41dEvvOsGKbvQ4Z3bb9Rid9 Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:10:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9DBEDCA0-6522-43B2-93BD-1B56A409512A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Phil, Understood. I was suggesting you provide more detail so as to solicit = more feedback. Please do publish/email more detail for us to review = ahead of time. My read on the Simplest schema/attribute spec is that = its mostly overlap therefore if you're willing to do the work to = highlight the deltas that would go a long way (at least for me) in = getting those of us that have had our noses buried in SCIM for awhile up = to speed. Thanks, Trey On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:58 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Trey, >=20 > I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we = should simply cite existing published materials as input rather then = submitting changes prior to formation. Having other sources of input = does not commit the WG to using the material, it simply indicates that = the material is being considered. >=20 > I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not = it should fall within the initial charter. >=20 > As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. = Then based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG = members (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the = WG formation. >=20 > If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements = externally on my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to = think about the issue in greater detail prior to the meeting. >=20 > Phil >=20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: >=20 >> Phil, >>=20 >> I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how = the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM = schema. A proposal pointing out: >>=20 >> - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? = applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) >> - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none)=20 >> - reasoning for change >> - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable = across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Trey >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>=20 >>> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM = that are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 >>>=20 >>> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs = to the charter.=20 >>>=20 >>> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but = there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting = addresses.=20 >>>=20 >>> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or = significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative = adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements and = need to be addressed now.=20 >>>=20 >>> Phil >>>=20 >>> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>>=20 >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers >>>>> //Samuel >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the = charter. Here is >>>>>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. = Consider the >>>>>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the = list of >>>>>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical = timeline to >>>>>> these: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Morteza >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>=20 >>>>> 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BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.99.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0123.000; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:16:31 +0000 From: Kelly Grizzle To: Trey Drake , Phil Hunt Thread-Topic: [scim] Deliverable section of charter Thread-Index: Ac0AB574rBl4rh3PS6KNwudUQoR5/gAFZ8oAAAB+XAAAEv30AAAAiruAAAEBVwAAAGtwgAAACCgg Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:16:31 +0000 Message-ID: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C6364BE@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.226.147.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sailpoint.com Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:16:41 -0000 I have not reviewed RESTSPML or SIMPLEST yet, but from a the viewpoint of a= provisioning vendor I think it is relevant and should be considered with S= CIM. I plan on reviewing the OASIS work in the near future and would be in= terested in hearing your summary. --Kelly -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tre= y Drake Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 12:11 PM To: Phil Hunt Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter Phil, Understood. I was suggesting you provide more detail so as to solicit more= feedback. Please do publish/email more detail for us to review ahead of t= ime. My read on the Simplest schema/attribute spec is that its mostly over= lap therefore if you're willing to do the work to highlight the deltas that= would go a long way (at least for me) in getting those of us that have had= our noses buried in SCIM for awhile up to speed. Thanks, Trey On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:58 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Trey, >=20 > I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we should s= imply cite existing published materials as input rather then submitting cha= nges prior to formation. Having other sources of input does not commit the = WG to using the material, it simply indicates that the material is being co= nsidered. >=20 > I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not it s= hould fall within the initial charter. >=20 > As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. Then= based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG members= (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the WG formati= on. >=20 > If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements externally o= n my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to think about the is= sue in greater detail prior to the meeting. >=20 > Phil >=20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: >=20 >> Phil, >>=20 >> I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how th= e "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM schema. = A proposal pointing out: >>=20 >> - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required?=20 >> applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) >> - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none) >> - reasoning for change >> - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable=20 >> across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Trey >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>=20 >>> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that a= re present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 >>>=20 >>> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to t= he charter.=20 >>>=20 >>> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but th= ere are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting addres= ses.=20 >>>=20 >>> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or sig= nificantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative adjustm= ents required. I believe these are foundational requirements and need to be= addressed now.=20 >>>=20 >>> Phil >>>=20 >>> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>>=20 >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers >>>>> //Samuel >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar)=20 >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the=20 >>>>>> charter. Here is a suggestion based on discussion and documents=20 >>>>>> under SCIM 1.0. Consider the dates on each item as a complete=20 >>>>>> guess. We should discuss the list of documents to begin with and=20 >>>>>> then assign appropriate/practical timeline to >>>>>> these: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Morteza >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 From Chris.Phillips@canarie.ca Mon Mar 12 10:20:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D74C21F88A8 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1j1ORMWwAp2Q for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.canarie.ca (mail.canarie.ca [205.189.33.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E6221F88A7 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RANCOR.canarie.local ([fe80::5c7e:71ff:1ed0:916d]) by RANCOR.canarie.local ([fe80::5c7e:71ff:1ed0:916d%10]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:20:33 -0400 From: Chris Phillips To: Trey Drake , Phil Hunt Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:20:32 -0400 Thread-Topic: [scim] Deliverable section of charter Thread-Index: Ac0AdG3LBJsmjiNZS8+TK9FbWCFa2g== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.10.0.110310 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:20:37 -0000 +1 to the request for the delta. More clarity around what are the overlaps are between SCIM the schema you are citing will be very helpful. >From my perspective(and I think others) it's hard to understand what the ask is for considering the schema without details and advocating the position as to why. Thanks... Chris. ___________________________________________________________________________ ___ Chris Phillips | Technical Architect, CANARIE Inc.| chris.phillips@canarie.ca | W: 613.449.6715 On 12-03-12 1:10 PM, "Trey Drake" wrote: >Phil, > >Understood. I was suggesting you provide more detail so as to solicit >more feedback. Please do publish/email more detail for us to review >ahead of time. My read on the Simplest schema/attribute spec is that its >mostly overlap therefore if you're willing to do the work to highlight >the deltas that would go a long way (at least for me) in getting those of >us that have had our noses buried in SCIM for awhile up to speed. > >Thanks, >Trey > > >On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:58 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: > >> Trey, >>=20 >> I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we should >>simply cite existing published materials as input rather then submitting >>changes prior to formation. Having other sources of input does not >>commit the WG to using the material, it simply indicates that the >>material is being considered. >>=20 >> I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not it >>should fall within the initial charter. >>=20 >> As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. >>Then based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG >>members (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the >>WG formation. >>=20 >> If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements externally >>on my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to think about >>the issue in greater detail prior to the meeting. >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: >>=20 >>> Phil, >>>=20 >>> I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how >>>the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM >>>schema. A proposal pointing out: >>>=20 >>> - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? >>>applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) >>> - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none) >>> - reasoning for change >>> - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable >>>across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Trey >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>>=20 >>>> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that >>>>are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'. >>>>=20 >>>> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to >>>>the charter.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but >>>>there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting >>>>addresses.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or >>>>significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative >>>>adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements >>>>and need to be addressed now. >>>>=20 >>>> Phil >>>>=20 >>>> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Eliot >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> //Samuel >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the >>>>>>>charter. Here is >>>>>>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. >>>>>>>Consider the >>>>>>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the list >>>>>>>of >>>>>>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical >>>>>>>timeline to >>>>>>> these: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Morteza >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 > From phil.hunt@oracle.com Mon Mar 12 10:22:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B02A21F88C2 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.489, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G3Y0R8sm3xVJ for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720F321F88C5 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2CHM6Lc003379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:22:06 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2CHM5DI019410 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:22:06 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2CHM56s030207; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:22:05 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:22:05 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:22:02 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <54B0EBDC-E243-48D8-BF44-BDAEF60F464C@oracle.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com> <2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> To: Trey Drake X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F5E30BF.000C,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:22:08 -0000 Trey, You are correct. This is why a merger of efforts seems appropriate to = discuss. The issue is to look at the gaps and see if: a. They add value to SCIM b. They can be added with minimal disruption As far as I can tell, the key missing piece is the concept of Targeting = in the SIMPLEST spec. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-12, at 10:10 AM, Trey Drake wrote: > Phil, >=20 > Understood. I was suggesting you provide more detail so as to solicit = more feedback. Please do publish/email more detail for us to review = ahead of time. My read on the Simplest schema/attribute spec is that = its mostly overlap therefore if you're willing to do the work to = highlight the deltas that would go a long way (at least for me) in = getting those of us that have had our noses buried in SCIM for awhile up = to speed. >=20 > Thanks, > Trey >=20 >=20 > On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:58 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >=20 >> Trey, >>=20 >> I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we = should simply cite existing published materials as input rather then = submitting changes prior to formation. Having other sources of input = does not commit the WG to using the material, it simply indicates that = the material is being considered. >>=20 >> I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not = it should fall within the initial charter. >>=20 >> As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. = Then based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG = members (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the = WG formation. >>=20 >> If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements = externally on my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to = think about the issue in greater detail prior to the meeting. >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: >>=20 >>> Phil, >>>=20 >>> I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for = how the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM = schema. A proposal pointing out: >>>=20 >>> - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? = applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) >>> - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none)=20 >>> - reasoning for change >>> - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable = across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Trey >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>>=20 >>>> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM = that are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs = to the charter.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers = but there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that = targeting addresses.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or = significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative = adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements and = need to be addressed now.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Phil >>>>=20 >>>> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Eliot >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> //Samuel >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the = charter. Here is >>>>>>> a suggestion based on discussion and documents under SCIM 1.0. = Consider the >>>>>>> dates on each item as a complete guess. We should discuss the = list of >>>>>>> documents to begin with and then assign appropriate/practical = timeline to >>>>>>> these: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Morteza >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Mon Mar 12 10:58:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A9D21E801B for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5Pz4dYnXPZr for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.scss.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F1121E800E for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C87171C8D; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:58:10 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1331575089; bh=OpE8FhmzEwJAsD xdSkP2bkkMP2o3fj1gaRE5JAVUMCo=; b=rRE/1811lhisDyg6FUm/ryCCd8ky/A PGz6XVNkdN1w0DULOOOK8vQPWvuSLhRBlJatdvKY3n5QIADYBK61iMgRmZS3oRnR 5sDVBAPBtVJmOGcD/A003cSEGZFDsZbRxWsZZrvCsfe16Rg1lXIidnDBP8fmi3tM iFDsONNw1LsDmdoeKAR72eN4k6Qi2PBupkvlTNvWFEvhav+BMTc6dSzxNbLzsHmX eUixwdcr4OzSLoTsNz6TtSurNln9BKBOaBaDUjJJ8xWYui1rf9VXl2eMUlJKzldx fyIIyQGy3CLgK3fIXo6ZmC0ckRHz5Rq8YgKBnt4Sc5GwWIs4S5ai5yaA== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id R3SJcO6YrY1J; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:58:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.226.16.36] (unknown [194.230.159.100]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14207171C8C; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:58:07 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F5E3926.1080208@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:57:58 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA076@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA076@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Updated draft charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:58:12 -0000 So its not clear to me from that charter how security is viewed here. To be clear: I don't think scim should be defining any new security primitives, but I'd also hope it'd not create horrible new vulnerabilities (e.g. "hi, I'm a service provider, honest, please shoot over user 100's stuff including her private key/passwords"). So there is I would assume some security work to do? S On 03/12/2012 05:16 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Attached is the updated charter based on the discussion so far. I > believe I have addressed all comments with the exception of part of Phil > Hunt's comment which I just sent a reply to. > > > > Also I started another thread to discuss deliverables section of the > charter. Once we discuss that, I will add that section. > > > > Please review and send any suggestion/correction. > > > > > > Cheers, > > Morteza > > > > > > Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) > > --------------------------------------- > > > > Charter > > > > Current Status: BOF Approved > > > > BoF Chair(s): > > Steve Bellovi > > Eliot Lear > > > > Applications Area Director(s): > > Pete Resnick > > Peter Saint-Andre > > > > Mailing Lists: > > General Discussion: scim@ietf.org > > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > Archive: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html > > > > Description of Working Group: > > > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and > services easier. > > > > The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing > schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of > development and integration, while applying existing authentication, > authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and > complexity of user management operations by providing a common user > schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide > patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In > addition the working group may consider including managing device > identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. > > > > The group will work to create an IETF technology for management of user > identities in cloud-based applications using SCIM 1.0 specification > produced under the Open Web Foundation framework > (http://www.simplecloud.info) as starting work. > > > > User, device, and service authentication and authorization > (policy/entitlement) are out of scope of this working group charter. > > > > SCIM 1.0 consists of: > > * Schema definition for identity related objects > > * Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity > objects > > * Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup Language > (SAML) messages and assertions > > * Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access > Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) > > > > The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for > consideration as a Proposed Standard that will evolve and enhance the > SCIM 1.0 work by: > > * Extending the specification per the working group charter > > * Improving the terminology used > > * Embodying good security practices, documenting gaps in its > capabilities, and proposing a path forward for addressing the gaps > > * Promoting interoperability > > * Providing guidelines for extensibility > > > > SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will > strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. > Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group > determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives > and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. > > > > The Working Group should consider: > > * Implementer experience > > * The end-user experience, including internationalization > > * Existing uses of SCIM > > * Ability to achieve broad implementation > > * Ability to address broader use cases than those considered by > the original authors > > * Additional functions or extensions that are needed to address > key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer feedback > > * Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process > such as OASIS Provisioning TC > > > > The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but > work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in > hand. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From ldhofer@avaya.com Mon Mar 12 11:08:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425AB21E801B for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ff-NBZ4hHeOe for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD2921F8968 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAF47Xk/GmAcF/2dsb2JhbAA6CbVXgQeCCQEBAQEDAQEBDx4KNAsMBAIBCA0EBAEBAQoCBAwLAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCAEZh2gLoAucAIogDQiFaWMEiFSTA4oYgwKBPQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,572,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="296563437" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.5]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 14:08:32 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO 306181ANEX4.global.avaya.com) ([135.9.6.103]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2012 14:00:43 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:08:29 -0600 Message-ID: <66383F2375B424489F98C9C88073552304B2148B@306181ANEX4.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: <4F5E3926.1080208@cs.tcd.ie> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Updated draft charter Thread-Index: Ac0Aeb2iKPtLpWh7SEmbctuyRhhvIgAAQKgw References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA076@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F5E3926.1080208@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Hofer, Larry D. (Larry)" To: "Stephen Farrell" , "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" Cc: scim@ietf.org, "Hofer, Larry D. \(Larry\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Updated draft charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:08:36 -0000 It would make sense to me to make sure the charter encompasses roles/users and trust model clarifications if not captured. My 2 cents, Larry H, CISSP, PE Avaya Sr. Security Architect -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:58 AM To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Updated draft charter So its not clear to me from that charter how security is viewed here. To be clear: I don't think scim should be defining any new security primitives, but I'd also hope it'd not create horrible new vulnerabilities (e.g. "hi, I'm a service provider, honest, please shoot over user 100's stuff including her private key/passwords"). So there is I would assume some security work to do? S On 03/12/2012 05:16 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Attached is the updated charter based on the discussion so far. I > believe I have addressed all comments with the exception of part of Phil > Hunt's comment which I just sent a reply to. > > > > Also I started another thread to discuss deliverables section of the > charter. Once we discuss that, I will add that section. > > > > Please review and send any suggestion/correction. > > > > > > Cheers, > > Morteza > > > > > > Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) > > --------------------------------------- > > > > Charter > > > > Current Status: BOF Approved > > > > BoF Chair(s): > > Steve Bellovi > > Eliot Lear > > > > Applications Area Director(s): > > Pete Resnick > > Peter Saint-Andre > > > > Mailing Lists: > > General Discussion: scim@ietf.org > > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > Archive: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html > > > > Description of Working Group: > > > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and > services easier. > > > > The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing > schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of > development and integration, while applying existing authentication, > authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and > complexity of user management operations by providing a common user > schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide > patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In > addition the working group may consider including managing device > identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. > > > > The group will work to create an IETF technology for management of user > identities in cloud-based applications using SCIM 1.0 specification > produced under the Open Web Foundation framework > (http://www.simplecloud.info) as starting work. > > > > User, device, and service authentication and authorization > (policy/entitlement) are out of scope of this working group charter. > > > > SCIM 1.0 consists of: > > * Schema definition for identity related objects > > * Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity > objects > > * Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup Language > (SAML) messages and assertions > > * Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access > Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) > > > > The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for > consideration as a Proposed Standard that will evolve and enhance the > SCIM 1.0 work by: > > * Extending the specification per the working group charter > > * Improving the terminology used > > * Embodying good security practices, documenting gaps in its > capabilities, and proposing a path forward for addressing the gaps > > * Promoting interoperability > > * Providing guidelines for extensibility > > > > SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will > strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. > Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group > determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives > and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. > > > > The Working Group should consider: > > * Implementer experience > > * The end-user experience, including internationalization > > * Existing uses of SCIM > > * Ability to achieve broad implementation > > * Ability to address broader use cases than those considered by > the original authors > > * Additional functions or extensions that are needed to address > key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer feedback > > * Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process > such as OASIS Provisioning TC > > > > The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but > work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in > hand. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From phil.hunt@oracle.com Mon Mar 12 15:46:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CD621F8AE9 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:46:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.159 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.159 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DUS38q4SKx8x for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071921F8AE8 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2CMkR19025541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:46:27 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2CMkPL7004437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:46:26 GMT Received: from abhmt107.oracle.com (abhmt107.oracle.com [141.146.116.59]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2CMkPDv028079; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:46:25 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:46:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EA85FA66-E39E-49ED-AF1B-14FB7541E105" From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA074@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:46:15 -0700 Message-Id: <0D543262-FC83-4EE4-99BF-8FDEBCFA04A9@oracle.com> References: <8F20CA41-B61E-4EE0-B801-F08F9CD48444@oracle.com> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA074@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F5E7CC4.0037,ss=1,re=-6.500,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:46:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EA85FA66-E39E-49ED-AF1B-14FB7541E105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Morteza, I think that sounds reasonable. I would like time to present at the BoF so that the WG may consider = additional requirements for the charter at that time. I will also post a blog post outlining the issue in advance of the BoF = to help get everyone up to speed. Cheers, Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-11, at 10:17 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Good suggestion Phil. I added a new item under the WG consideration = section: =93Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process = such as OASIS Provisioning TC=94 but I didn=92t add any specific items = that should be considered. I think it would be best to leave that to the = WG to study the work you referenced and decide what items should be = considered. > =20 > Do you think that is sufficient? > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > Morteza > =20 > From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:25 PM > To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter > =20 > Morteza,=20 > =20 > Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting soon! > =20 > Regarding the charter, I propose that the working group also adopt the = following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input material: > * A RESTful Binding to SPML - = http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/restpml > * SIMPLEST: A standard schema for Identity and Access Management - = http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest > These documents can provide some additional implementation insight = into the final SCIM WG product. > =20 > Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there are some = additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM 1.0, = hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible way.=20 > =20 > The key items are: > * Support for multiple targets within a SCIM service provider > * A change to schema introducing a Person entity which for example is = associated with one or more User entities. > =20 > The first item arises out of some practical deployment architecture = issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that arises = regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with individuals -- = especially when they have more than one User account. For those that = want to read ahead now, I suggest reading: > = http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest#AccountManagement.3ATargetan= dAccount > =20 > I propose to present on these two topics at the BoF and then based on = feedback can contribute the content in draft form into the WG for its = consideration. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Phil > =20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 > =20 > From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" > To: > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:32:58 -0600 > List-id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF > Hi folks, > =20 > Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the cloud-directory = mailing list. Please review and send your comments. > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > Morteza > =20 > =20 > Simplified Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > =20 >=20 > Charter >=20 > =20 >=20 > Current Status: BOF Request >=20 > =20 >=20 > Chair(s): >=20 > TBD1 >=20 > TBD2 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Applications Area Director(s): >=20 > Pete Resnick >=20 > Peter Saint-Andre >=20 > =20 >=20 > Mailing Lists: >=20 > General Discussion: scim at ietf.org >=20 > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 > Archive: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html >=20 > =20 >=20 > Description of Working Group: >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and = services easier. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing = schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of = development and integration, while applying existing authentication, = authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and = complexity of user management operations by providing a common user = schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide = patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The group will work to adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under = the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info) as an = IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based = applications. >=20 > =20 >=20 > SCIM 1.0 consists of: >=20 > =B7 Schema definition for identity related objects >=20 > =B7 Protocol definition for accessing and managing the = identity objects >=20 > =B7 Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup = Language (SAML) messages and assertions >=20 > =B7 Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access = Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for = consideration as a Proposed Standard that will: >=20 > =B7 Improve the terminology used >=20 > =B7 Embody good security practices, document gaps in its = capabilities, and propose a path forward for addressing the gaps >=20 > =B7 Promote interoperability >=20 > =B7 Provide guidelines for extensibility >=20 > =20 >=20 > SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will = strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. = Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group = determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives = and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Working Group should consider: >=20 > =B7 Implementer experience >=20 > =B7 The end-user experience, including internationalization >=20 > =B7 Existing uses of SCIM >=20 > =B7 Ability to achieve broad implementation >=20 > =B7 Ability to address broader use cases than those considered = by the original authors >=20 > =B7 Additional functions or extensions that are needed to = address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer = feedback >=20 > =20 >=20 > The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but = work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in = hand. >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_EA85FA66-E39E-49ED-AF1B-14FB7541E105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-11, at 10:17 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) = wrote:

Good suggestion Phil.  I added a new item under = the WG consideration section: =93Work done by other standard bodies as = input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC=94 but I didn=92t add = any specific items that should be considered. I think it would be best = to leave that to the WG to study the work you referenced and decide what = items should be considered.
Do you think that is = sufficient?
From: Phil Hunt = [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 = 3:25 PM
To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari = (moransar)
Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed = charter
Very happy to see the = SCIM WG is starting soon!
 
Regarding the charter, I propose that the working = group also adopt the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input = material:
Hi = folks,
 
Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the = cloud-directory mailing list. Please review and send your = comments.
 
 
Morteza
 

Simplified Cloud = Identity Management (SCIM)

 

Charter

 

Current Status: BOF = Request

     TBD2

 

Applications Area = Director(s): qualcomm.com>

     Peter = Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>

 

Mailing = Lists:  

 

 

Description of = Working Group:The = Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to = make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and = services easier.The = specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas = and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development = and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, = and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of = user management operations by providing a common user schema and = extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for = exchanging this schema using standard protocols.

 

The group will work = to adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web = Foundation framework (

 

SCIM 1.0 consists = of:=B7         Schema definition = for identity related objects

=B7Protocol definition = for accessing and managing the identity objects

Binding of SCIM = schema to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and = assertions=B7         Binding of SCIM = schema to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema = (RFC4519)The = Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for = consideration as a Proposed Standard that will:

Improve the = terminology used=B7         Embody good security = practices, document gaps in its capabilities, and propose a path forward = for addressing the gaps=B7         Promote = interoperability=B7         Provide guidelines = for extensibilitySCIM = 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will strive to = retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that = are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group determines = changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives and the = group clearly documents the reasons for making them.

 

The Working Group = should consider:=B7         Implementer = experience=B7         The end-user = experience, including internationalization

Existing uses of = SCIM=B7         Ability to achieve = broad implementation=B7         Ability to address = broader use cases than those considered by the original = authors=B7         Additional functions = or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, = cross-area review, and implementer feedback

 

The working group = will focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions = will be considered after the core work is well in hand. 

In-Reply-To: <0D543262-FC83-4EE4-99BF-8FDEBCFA04A9@oracle.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Porposed charter Thread-Index: Ac0Aog3bq765++ecTme2mimwPh9bEQAAC/Kg References: <8F20CA41-B61E-4EE0-B801-F08F9CD48444@oracle.com> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA074@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <0D543262-FC83-4EE4-99BF-8FDEBCFA04A9@oracle.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Phil Hunt" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2012 00:41:38.0232 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CC97380:01CD00B2] Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:41:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD00B2.0C7F2AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that makes sense. =20 Eliot, can we carve up some time on the agenda for this? =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20 Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 3:46 PM To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter =20 Morteza, =20 I think that sounds reasonable. =20 I would like time to present at the BoF so that the WG may consider additional requirements for the charter at that time. =20 I will also post a blog post outlining the issue in advance of the BoF to help get everyone up to speed. =20 Cheers, =20 Phil =20 @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com =20 =20 On 2012-03-11, at 10:17 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: Good suggestion Phil. I added a new item under the WG consideration section: "Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC" but I didn't add any specific items that should be considered. I think it would be best to leave that to the WG to study the work you referenced and decide what items should be considered. =20 Do you think that is sufficient? =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:25 PM To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter =20 Morteza,=20 =20 Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting soon! =20 Regarding the charter, I propose that the working group also adopt the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input material: * A RESTful Binding to SPML - http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/restpml * SIMPLEST: A standard schema for Identity and Access Management - http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest These documents can provide some additional implementation insight into the final SCIM WG product. =20 Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there are some additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM 1.0, hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible way.=20 =20 The key items are: * Support for multiple targets within a SCIM service provider * A change to schema introducing a Person entity which for example is associated with one or more User entities. =20 The first item arises out of some practical deployment architecture issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that arises regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with individuals -- especially when they have more than one User account. For those that want to read ahead now, I suggest reading: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest#AccountManagement.3ATarget andAccount =20 I propose to present on these two topics at the BoF and then based on feedback can contribute the content in draft form into the WG for its consideration. =20 Regards, =20 Phil =20 @independentid www.independentid.com =20 phil.hunt@oracle.com =20 ________________________________ * From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" > * To: > * Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:32:58 -0600 * List-id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF > ________________________________ Hi folks, =20 Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the cloud-directory mailing list. Please review and send your comments. =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 =20 Simplified Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) -------------------------------------------------------- =20 Charter =20 Current Status: BOF Request =20 Chair(s): TBD1 TBD2 =20 Applications Area Director(s): Pete Resnick > Peter Saint-Andre =20 Mailing Lists: General Discussion: scim at ietf.org =20 To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html =20 Description of Working Group: =20 The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier. =20 The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. =20 The group will work to adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info ) as an IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based applications. =20 SCIM 1.0 consists of: * Schema definition for identity related objects * Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity objects * Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and assertions * Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) =20 The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for consideration as a Proposed Standard that will: * Improve the terminology used * Embody good security practices, document gaps in its capabilities, and propose a path forward for addressing the gaps * Promote interoperability * Provide guidelines for extensibility =20 SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. =20 The Working Group should consider: * Implementer experience * The end-user experience, including internationalization * Existing uses of SCIM * Ability to achieve broad implementation * Ability to address broader use cases than those considered by the original authors * Additional functions or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer feedback =20 The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in hand. =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD00B2.0C7F2AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think that makes sense.

 

Eliot, can we carve up some time on the agenda for = this?

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

From:= = Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March = 12, 2012 3:46 PM
To: Morteza Ansari (moransar)
Cc: = scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed = charter

 

Morteza,

 

I = think that sounds reasonable.

 

I = would like time to present at the BoF so that the WG may consider = additional requirements for the charter at that = time.

 

I = will also post a blog post outlining the issue in advance of the BoF to = help get everyone up to speed.

 

Cheers,

 

On = 2012-03-11, at 10:17 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) = wrote:



Good suggestion Phil.  I added a new item under the WG = consideration section: “Work done by other standard bodies as = input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC” but I = didn’t add any specific items that should be considered. I think = it would be best to leave that to the WG to study the work you = referenced and decide what items should be = considered.

 

Do you think that is sufficient?

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

From:=  Phil Hunt = [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.co= m] 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 = 3:25 PM
To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari = (moransar)
Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed = charter

 

Morteza, 

 

Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting = soon!

 

Regarding the charter, I propose that the working = group also adopt the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input = material:

These documents can provide some additional = implementation insight into the final SCIM WG = product.

 

Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there = are some additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM = 1.0, hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible = way. 

 

The key items = are:

* Support = for multiple targets within a SCIM service = provider

* A = change to schema introducing a Person entity which for example is = associated with one or more User = entities.

 

The first item arises out of some practical deployment = architecture issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that = arises regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with = individuals -- especially when they have more than one User account. For = those that want to read ahead now, I suggest = reading:

 

I propose to present on these two topics at the BoF = and then based on feedback can contribute the content in draft form into = the WG for its consideration.

 

Regards,

 

 

Hi = folks,

 

Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the = cloud-directory mailing list. Please review and send your = comments.

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

 

Simplified Cloud = Identity Management (SCIM)

-----------------------= ---------------------------------

 

Charter

 

Current Status: BOF = Request

 

Chair(s):

    = ; TBD1

    = ; TBD2

 

Applications Area = Director(s):

    =  Pete Resnick <presnick at qualcomm.com>

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>    = ; Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at = stpeter.im>

 

Mailing = Lists:

    = ; General Discussion: scim at ietf.org

    = ; To Subscribe:     https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/scim

    = ; = Archive:           = ;    = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html

 

Description of Working = Group:

 

The Simple Cloud = Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing = user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services = easier.

 

The specification = suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and = deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and = integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and = privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user = management operations by providing a common user schema and extension = model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging = this schema using standard protocols.

 

The group will work to = adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web Foundation = framework (http://www.simplecloud.info) = as an IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based = applications.

 

SCIM 1.0 consists = of:

·      = ;   Schema definition for = identity related objects

·      = ;   Protocol definition = for accessing and managing the identity objects

·      = ;   Binding of SCIM schema = to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and = assertions

·      = ;   Binding of SCIM schema = to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema = (RFC4519)

 

The Working Group will = produce one or more documents suitable for consideration as a Proposed = Standard that will:

·      = ;   Improve the = terminology used

·      = ;   Embody good security = practices, document gaps in its capabilities, and propose a path forward = for addressing the gaps

·      = ;   Promote = interoperability

·      = ;   Provide guidelines for = extensibility

 

SCIM 1.0 will be used = as the starting point. The working group will strive to retain backward = compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that are not backwards = compatible may be accepted if the group determines changes are required = to meet the group's technical objectives and the group clearly documents = the reasons for making them.

 

The Working Group = should consider:

·      = ;   Implementer = experience

·      = ;   The end-user = experience, including internationalization

·      = ;   Existing uses of = SCIM

·      = ;   Ability to achieve = broad implementation

·      = ;   Ability to address = broader use cases than those considered by the original = authors

·      = ;   Additional functions = or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, = cross-area review, and implementer feedback

 

The working group will = focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions will = be considered after the core work is well in = hand.

 

 

 

_________= ______________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/scim

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD00B2.0C7F2AB0-- From moransar@cisco.com Mon Mar 12 17:48:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F2F21E8111 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:48:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id haa9tfftpjQo for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D222A21E80EC for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=6708; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331599685; x=1332809285; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=RrqHm09AfuXcBcAPIKt6Gss+sw7QF5w0LhYyJvlGw08=; b=h2g+1YMPyo9OOhKFt/MF6J3H7InARouDf/Xr/S/rPJCHEgaL4pk+omc4 F+BPdKY/qBOB7q0U57tJrsWhvQxANISfswWuenkR2Orfojk8prrHa8ezQ AsVisekz3ZuZAKtKmRsmOpufVJeeP0HUYsiF+6jlnX07jE+SohlxNIJNj U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAOyXXk+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABDtV+BB4IJAQEBAwEBAQEPAR0KDyUGBQUHBAIBCBEEAQEBCgYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHYwQBC5x7AZ8JkAZjBIhUnRuDAYE+ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,574,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="35828529" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2012 00:48:05 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com [72.163.63.8]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2D0m5iD018013; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:48:05 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:48:05 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA62A@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54B0EBDC-E243-48D8-BF44-BDAEF60F464C@oracle.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Deliverable section of charter Thread-Index: Ac0AdKjQ65dv624yR+26Bsu4jVq4vAAPfMBw References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA075@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com><4F5DA16A.4070107@cisco.com><2A432DF8-DF8F-468A-B805-A63F28318AA6@oracle.com> <54B0EBDC-E243-48D8-BF44-BDAEF60F464C@oracle.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Phil Hunt" , "Trey Drake" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2012 00:48:05.0204 (UTC) FILETIME=[F370B140:01CD00B2] Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:48:06 -0000 I believe the updated charter addresses this: "The working group should consider: ... * Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC" I guess the question is how to provide a deliverable section when we don't know what the exact list of the documents we need to be producing as part of the WG adopted work. =20 Cheers, Morteza -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:22 AM To: Trey Drake Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Deliverable section of charter Trey, You are correct. This is why a merger of efforts seems appropriate to discuss. The issue is to look at the gaps and see if: a. They add value to SCIM b. They can be added with minimal disruption As far as I can tell, the key missing piece is the concept of Targeting in the SIMPLEST spec. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-12, at 10:10 AM, Trey Drake wrote: > Phil, >=20 > Understood. I was suggesting you provide more detail so as to solicit more feedback. Please do publish/email more detail for us to review ahead of time. My read on the Simplest schema/attribute spec is that its mostly overlap therefore if you're willing to do the work to highlight the deltas that would go a long way (at least for me) in getting those of us that have had our noses buried in SCIM for awhile up to speed. >=20 > Thanks, > Trey >=20 >=20 > On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:58 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >=20 >> Trey, >>=20 >> I think such a draft proposal is premature. At the BoF stage, we should simply cite existing published materials as input rather then submitting changes prior to formation. Having other sources of input does not commit the WG to using the material, it simply indicates that the material is being considered. >>=20 >> I propose we discuss the issue at the BoF, and decide whether or not it should fall within the initial charter. >>=20 >> As to the whys/impact etc., I'm prepared to present that at the BoF. Then based on feedback, I am happy to work with any other interested WG members (as editor or contributor) to submit a draft proposal after the WG formation. >>=20 >> If it helps, I can publish some comments on the requirements externally on my personal blog so that everyone can have a chance to think about the issue in greater detail prior to the meeting. >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2012-03-12, at 9:29 AM, Trey Drake wrote: >>=20 >>> Phil, >>>=20 >>> I believe it would be helpful if you made a specific proposal for how the "Simplest" schema, et al. might be meshed with the existing SCIM schema. A proposal pointing out: >>>=20 >>> - the specific schema and attribute changes (schema change required? >>> applicable to core? additional extensions?, etc.) >>> - what impact those changes have on the protocol (in theory none) >>> - reasoning for change >>> - implementation impact (is it useful by the masses, generalizable=20 >>> across a variety of 'backends', *implementable*) >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Trey >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>>=20 >>>> We still need to discuss adding major missing components in SCIM that are present in RESTpml. Specifically 'targeting'.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I have not yet heard back on including this material as input docs to the charter.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> SCIM as it stands now is great for single service SaaS providers but there are major gaps for larger multi-service providers that targeting addresses.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Note that I think these changes are additive and would not delay or significantly change the core spec--though there may be some normative adjustments required. I believe these are foundational requirements and need to be addressed now.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Phil >>>>=20 >>>> On 2012-03-12, at 0:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Do we have a draft volunteer? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Eliot >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 3/12/12 7:56 AM, Samuel Erdtman wrote: >>>>>> Have we considered to include an OpenID binding, 2.0 or Connect? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> //Samuel >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar)=20 >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Eliot suggestion we should add a deliverable section to the=20 >>>>>>> charter. Here is a suggestion based on discussion and documents=20 >>>>>>> under SCIM 1.0. Consider the dates on each item as a complete=20 >>>>>>> guess. We should discuss the list of documents to begin with and >>>>>>> then assign appropriate/practical timeline to >>>>>>> these: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial problem statement draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Morteza >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> scim mailing list >>>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 13 02:05:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B7021F87D4 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tZVqDPf91fhV for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA33E21F87CD for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:05:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=89323; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331629548; x=1332839148; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=LVqwkxM/XBFXQMWf2WKF1+hnFXvSuq7bbC64kXxnqqg=; b=h0EQwwmt6WIvnY+sQAnE+YdIofFGsvhrvS0OZNzu+YwUcGU6yH1KAzZR S8PgRhn4I5lBGF7n/aHscEnVcJsSyDwYPAzQvdXFQe9jMPLMGzR0w1xcA UlaBP21+FzFXht9K/pE2gdHZchIHIUHIEoya9N+VU6+IvS3EIc5MioOvw o=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,576,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="68324157" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2012 09:05:47 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-89-97.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-89-97.cisco.com [10.55.89.97]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2D95jmK029076; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:05:46 GMT Message-ID: <4F5F0DE9.5000707@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:05:45 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <8F20CA41-B61E-4EE0-B801-F08F9CD48444@oracle.com> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEA074@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <0D543262-FC83-4EE4-99BF-8FDEBCFA04A9@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <0D543262-FC83-4EE4-99BF-8FDEBCFA04A9@oracle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050305040200030809020005" Cc: scim@ietf.org, "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:05:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050305040200030809020005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Phil, Morteza, My first preference would be that the two of you work together to consolidate such a presentation. I also think it would be very helpful, Phil, if you could first articulate those requirements on this list. Eliot On 3/12/12 11:46 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Morteza, > > I think that sounds reasonable. > > I would like time to present at the BoF so that the WG may consider > additional requirements for the charter at that time. > > I will also post a blog post outlining the issue in advance of the BoF > to help get everyone up to speed. > > Cheers, > > Phil > > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com > > > > > > On 2012-03-11, at 10:17 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > >> Good suggestion Phil. I added a new item under the WG consideration >> section: “Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process >> such as OASIS Provisioning TC” but I didn’t add any specific items >> that should be considered. I think it would be best to leave that to >> the WG to study the work you referenced and decide what items should >> be considered. >> >> Do you think that is sufficient? >> >> >> Cheers, >> Morteza >> >> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com] >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:25 PM >> *To:* scim@ietf.org ; Morteza Ansari (moransar) >> *Subject:* Re: [scim] Porposed charter >> >> Morteza, >> >> Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting soon! >> >> Regarding the charter, I propose that the working group also adopt >> the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input material: >> * A RESTful Binding to SPML >> - http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/restpml >> * SIMPLEST: A standard schema for Identity and Access Management >> - http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest >> These documents can provide some additional implementation insight >> into the final SCIM WG product. >> >> Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there are some >> additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM 1.0, >> hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible way. >> >> The key items are: >> * Support for multiple targets within a SCIM service provider >> * A change to schema introducing a Person entity which for example is >> associated with one or more User entities. >> >> The first item arises out of some practical deployment architecture >> issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that arises >> regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with individuals >> -- especially when they have more than one User account. For those >> that want to read ahead now, I suggest reading: >> http://wiki.oasis-open.org/provision/simplest#AccountManagement.3ATargetandAccount >> >> I propose to present on these two topics at the BoF and then based on >> feedback can contribute the content in draft form into the WG for its >> consideration. >> >> Regards, >> >> Phil >> >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> * /From/: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" > > >> * /To/: > >> * /Date/: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:32:58 -0600 >> * /List-id/: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF > > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Hi folks, >> >> Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the cloud-directory >> mailing list. Please review and send your comments. >> >> >> Cheers, >> Morteza >> >> >> >> Simplified Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Charter >> >> >> >> Current Status: BOF Request >> >> >> >> Chair(s): >> >> TBD1 >> >> TBD2 >> >> >> >> Applications Area Director(s): >> >> Pete Resnick > >> >> Peter Saint-Andre >> >> >> >> Mailing Lists: >> >> General Discussion: scim at ietf.org >> >> To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> >> >> Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html >> >> >> >> Description of Working Group: >> >> >> >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed >> to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications >> and services easier. >> >> >> >> The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing >> schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of >> development and integration, while applying existing authentication, >> authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost >> and complexity of user management operations by providing a common >> user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to >> provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. >> >> >> >> The group will work to adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced >> under the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info >> ) as an IETF technology for management >> of user identities in cloud-based applications. >> >> >> >> SCIM 1.0 consists of: >> >> · Schema definition for identity related objects >> >> · Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity >> objects >> >> · Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup >> Language (SAML) messages and assertions >> >> · Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access >> Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519) >> >> >> >> The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for >> consideration as a Proposed Standard that will: >> >> · Improve the terminology used >> >> · Embody good security practices, document gaps in its >> capabilities, and propose a path forward for addressing the gaps >> >> · Promote interoperability >> >> · Provide guidelines for extensibility >> >> >> >> SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will >> strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. >> Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the >> group determines changes are required to meet the group's technical >> objectives and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them. >> >> >> >> The Working Group should consider: >> >> · Implementer experience >> >> · The end-user experience, including internationalization >> >> · Existing uses of SCIM >> >> · Ability to achieve broad implementation >> >> · Ability to address broader use cases than those considered >> by the original authors >> >> · Additional functions or extensions that are needed to >> address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer >> feedback >> >> >> >> The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first >> but work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well >> in hand. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------050305040200030809020005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Phil, Morteza,

My first preference would be that the two of you work together to consolidate such a presentation.  I also think it would be very helpful, Phil, if you could first articulate those requirements on this list.

Eliot

On 3/12/12 11:46 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
Morteza,

I think that sounds reasonable.

I would like time to present at the BoF so that the WG may consider additional requirements for the charter at that time.

I will also post a blog post outlining the issue in advance of the BoF to help get everyone up to speed.

Cheers,


On 2012-03-11, at 10:17 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote:

Good suggestion Phil.  I added a new item under the WG consideration section: “Work done by other standard bodies as input to the process such as OASIS Provisioning TC” but I didn’t add any specific items that should be considered. I think it would be best to leave that to the WG to study the work you referenced and decide what items should be considered.
 
Do you think that is sufficient?
 
 
Cheers,
Morteza
 
From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:25 PM
To: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar)
Subject: Re: [scim] Porposed charter
 
Morteza, 
 
Very happy to see the SCIM WG is starting soon!
 
Regarding the charter, I propose that the working group also adopt the following OASIS Provisioning TC documents as input material:
These documents can provide some additional implementation insight into the final SCIM WG product.
 
Based on the OASIS Provisioning TC experience, there are some additional cloud requirements that could be added into SCIM 1.0, hopefully in a straightforward, backwards compatible way. 
 
The key items are:
* Support for multiple targets within a SCIM service provider
* A change to schema introducing a Person entity which for example is associated with one or more User entities.
 
The first item arises out of some practical deployment architecture issues, the latter arises from an attestation issue that arises regarding tracking what user accounts are associated with individuals -- especially when they have more than one User account. For those that want to read ahead now, I suggest reading:
 
I propose to present on these two topics at the BoF and then based on feedback can contribute the content in draft form into the WG for its consideration.
 
Regards,
 
 
Hi folks,
 
Here is the proposed charter as we discussed over the cloud-directory mailing list. Please review and send your comments.
 
 
Cheers,
Morteza
 
 

Simplified Cloud Identity Management (SCIM)

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Charter

 

Current Status: BOF Request

 

Chair(s):

     TBD1

     TBD2

 

Applications Area Director(s):

     Pete Resnick <presnick at qualcomm.com>

     Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>

 

Mailing Lists:

     General Discussion: scim at ietf.org

     To Subscribe:     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

     Archive:               http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html

 

Description of Working Group:

 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier.

 

The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols.

 

The group will work to adapt the SCIM 1.0 specification produced under the Open Web Foundation framework (http://www.simplecloud.info) as an IETF technology for management of user identities in cloud-based applications.

 

SCIM 1.0 consists of:

·         Schema definition for identity related objects

·         Protocol definition for accessing and managing the identity objects

·         Binding of SCIM schema to Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) messages and assertions

·         Binding of SCIM schema to Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) schema (RFC4519)

 

The Working Group will produce one or more documents suitable for consideration as a Proposed Standard that will:

·         Improve the terminology used

·         Embody good security practices, document gaps in its capabilities, and propose a path forward for addressing the gaps

·         Promote interoperability

·         Provide guidelines for extensibility

 

SCIM 1.0 will be used as the starting point. The working group will strive to retain backward compatibility with the 1.0 specification. Changes that are not backwards compatible may be accepted if the group determines changes are required to meet the group's technical objectives and the group clearly documents the reasons for making them.

 

The Working Group should consider:

·         Implementer experience

·         The end-user experience, including internationalization

·         Existing uses of SCIM

·         Ability to achieve broad implementation

·         Ability to address broader use cases than those considered by the original authors

·         Additional functions or extensions that are needed to address key security concerns, cross-area review, and implementer feedback

 

The working group will focus on adapting the core technology first but work on extensions will be considered after the core work is well in hand.
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
--------------050305040200030809020005-- From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 13 12:38:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CB021F8701 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JayJbY8fP9Wo for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B61E21F86FF for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:37:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=13499; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331667477; x=1332877077; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject; bh=hws+U+ZytOCTlL92XER3S30PkZ6vktPnuUImT0RX3jc=; b=DAixECofLXs0/8XCqr4nwED4xN9EqoVIjLBk4KcE9NcCDid7EKoolqkI zUiZeHnti0k01kO+eD6pCaZ0L2hkAp96g7FHqzrWTj1tl3krgUWcj8Eec 6JDVz2/8KwbXQYjS9Us99Nckd8XnZ+DUoWdjDlzfPJRS39R6UEbTU/m6R 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAKGhX0+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbAA5AQmFOrAxgQeCCwEFAQEPARBLCgEZIwMJCggDAgsDAgECARUfJAEFAgEBBRmHaAuccAGMcZINiigBCIMGghiBFgSRb4NhkCOCZoFb X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,579,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="68392586" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2012 19:37:55 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com [10.61.99.194]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2DJbtKM021866; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:37:55 GMT Message-ID: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:37:55 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000008040301050000000602" Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:38:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000008040301050000000602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the charter. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some substantial changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the charter in line with most of the others. Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG. Even with these changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not complete. What is missing – *and it's important – * are a few additional words about why we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG. So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below. I've put some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point. PLEASE propose text. In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will – and as importantly – WON'T do. A good charter will scope out more. What are the critical functions that need to be done *now*? If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round. So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating? Rinse and repeat with protocol operations. In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before – or very quickly after – our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications. Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the charter need not – and cannot – be completely finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as possible. Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would like to see. Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) Chair(s): TBD Applications Area Director(s): Pete Resnick > Barry Lieba Mailing Lists: General Discussion: scim@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html Description of Working Group: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier. XXXXXXX So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on tools such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information. SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for the service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account so that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. XXXXXXXX The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In addition the working group may consider including managing device identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. The group will use as starting points the following drafts in the following ways: draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification, draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are commonly known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for backward compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will consider, for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing work. The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, including the OASIS Provisioning TC. The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will make consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall system, identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either through IANA registries or other means). In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a later time. However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. Milestones 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping 3/2013 Re-charter discussion --------------000008040301050000000602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the charter.  Most of this is form and not substance,  but there are some substantial changes.  The purpose of these changes is to bring the charter in line with most of the others.  Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG.  Even with these changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not complete.

What is missing – and it's important –  are a few additional words about why we need SCIM.  Why are we holding the darn BoF?  This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document.  Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.  So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below.  I've put some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point.  PLEASE propose text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic.  I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will – and as importantly –  WON'T do.  A good charter will scope out more.  What are the critical functions that need to be done now?  If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round.  So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating?  Rinse and repeat with protocol operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before – or very quickly after – our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications.  Thus you see draft-XXX below.  While the charter need not – and cannot – be completely finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would like to see.

Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM)
Chair(s): TBD 
Applications Area Director(s):
     Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> 
     Barry Lieba <???> 

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
     To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
     Archive:      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html
 
Description of Working Group:
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to 
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and 
services easier.

XXXXXXX

So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often
necessary to ease adoption of new services.  This work builds on tools
such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information.
SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be
available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for the
service.  An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account so
that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in.

XXXXXXXX

The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing 
schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of 
development and integration, while applying existing authentication, 
authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and 
complexity of user management operations by providing a common user 
schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide 
patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In 
addition the working group may consider including managing device 
identities as part of the work adopted by the working group.
The group will use as starting points the following drafts in
the following ways:

	draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and
	draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP.

These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are commonly
known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, some consideration should be given for backward
compatibility, as the group evolves the work.  This group will consider,
for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing work.
The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, including
the OASIS Provisioning TC.

The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,
a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding.  In doing so, the group will make
consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall system,
identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address
internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either through
IANA registries or other means).

In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be
included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a later time.

However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization
(policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group.

Milestones

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core schema
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft
9/2012    WGLC SCIM core schema
9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful interface
9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML bindings
9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping
3/2013    Re-charter discussion
--------------000008040301050000000602-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Tue Mar 13 12:56:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E6121F8644 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:56:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qCp2k9hHQVsz for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CCF21F863E for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2DJuG2h031755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:56:17 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2DJuFpF015756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:56:16 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2DJuFpn021824; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:56:15 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:56:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_31445394-D6C2-4BF8-8DEA-8C377024C7FF" From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:56:13 -0700 Message-Id: References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F5FA661.00B2,ss=1,re=-2.300,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:56:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_31445394-D6C2-4BF8-8DEA-8C377024C7FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Eliot, I propose the following change to the WG Description: From: > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20= > services easier. To: > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and=20= > services easier between client organizations and cloud based service = providers. The change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud providers = (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many services. It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 = specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the = re-published drafts under IETF. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Everyone, >=20 > Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the = charter. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some = substantial changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the = charter in line with most of the others. Absent these sort of changes, = I am not confident we would get a WG. Even with these changes, more = work is needed. because what is below is not complete. >=20 > What is missing =96 and it's important =96 are a few additional words = about why we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is not = something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. Rather, = if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG = would approve a WG. So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below. I've put = some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point. PLEASE = propose text. >=20 > In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would = suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as importantly =96= WON'T do. A good charter will scope out more. What are the critical = functions that need to be done now? If we leave it wide open, then we = run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to = decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round. So, for = instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating? Rinse and repeat = with protocol operations. >=20 > In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very = quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial = specifications. Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the charter need = not =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before the BoF, we should = have it as close as possible. >=20 >=20 > Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you = would like to see. >=20 > Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) > Chair(s): TBD > Applications Area Director(s): > Pete Resnick =20 > Barry Lieba =20 > Mailing Lists: > General Discussion: scim@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > Archive: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html > =20 > Description of Working Group: > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20= > services easier. >=20 > XXXXXXX >=20 > So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are = often > necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on tools > such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date = information. > SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be > available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context = for the > service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail = account so > that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. >=20 > XXXXXXXX > The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing=20= > schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of=20 > development and integration, while applying existing authentication,=20= > authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost = and=20 > complexity of user management operations by providing a common user=20 > schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide=20 > patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In=20 > addition the working group may consider including managing device=20 > identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. > The group will use as starting points the following drafts in > the following ways: >=20 > draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, > draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol = specification, > draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = SAML, and > draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = LDAP. >=20 > These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are = commonly > known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for = backward > compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will = consider, > for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the = existing work. > The group will also consider experiences with work done by other = bodies, including > the OASIS Provisioning TC. >=20 > The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, > a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will make > consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall = system, > identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address > internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either = through > IANA registries or other means). >=20 > In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should = be > included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a = later time. >=20 > However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization > (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. >=20 > Milestones >=20 > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping > 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_31445394-D6C2-4BF8-8DEA-8C377024C7FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Eliot,

I = propose the following change to the WG = Description:

From:
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is =
designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20
services =
easier.
To:
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is =
designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and=20
services easier between client organizations and cloud based service =
providers.

The = change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud providers = (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many = services.

It is probably important to site the = location of the SCIM 1.0 specification which is published externally to = IETF as well as the re-published drafts under = IETF.

Phil
@independentid
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

=20 =20
Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the charter.  Most of this is form and not substance,  but = there are some substantial changes.  The purpose of these changes is to = bring the charter in line with most of the others.  Absent these sort = of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG.  Even with these changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not = complete.

What is missing =96 and it's important =96  are a few = additional words about why we need SCIM.  Why are we holding the darn = BoF?  This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document.  Rather, if there is no clear statement of the = problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.  So that's what the = big XXXXXXX is below.  I've put some words in, but they are there = to demonstrate the point.  PLEASE propose text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic.  I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as = importantly =96  WON'T do.  A good charter will scope out more.  = What are the critical functions that need to be done now?  If we = leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round.  So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating?  Rinse and repeat with protocol operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications.  Thus you see draft-XXX below.  = While the charter need not =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before = the BoF, we should have it as close as possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would like to see.

Simple Cloud =
Identity Management (SCIM)
Chair(s): TBD 
Applications Area =
Director(s):
     Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> =

     Barry Lieba <???>=20

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
     To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/scim
     Archive:      h=
ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html
 
Description of Working =
Group:
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) =
specification is designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20
services easier.

XXXXXXX

So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often
necessary to ease adoption of new services.  This work builds on tools
such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date =
information.
SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be
available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context =
for the
service.  An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account =
so
that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in.

XXXXXXXX

The specification suite seeks to build upon =
experience with existing=20
schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of=20
development and integration, while applying existing authentication,=20
authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and=20=

complexity of user management operations by providing a common user=20
schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide=20
patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In=20
addition the working group may consider including managing device=20
identities as part of the work adopted by the working =
group.
The group will use as starting =
points the following drafts in
the following ways:

	draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol =
specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to =
SAML, and
	draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to =
LDAP.

These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are =
commonly
known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, some consideration should be given for =
backward
compatibility, as the group evolves the work.  This group =
will consider,
for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing =
work.
The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, =
including
the OASIS Provisioning TC.

The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,
a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding.  In doing so, the group will make
consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall =
system,
identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address
internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either =
through
IANA registries or other means).

In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should =
be
included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a =
later time.

However, user, device, and service authentication and =
authorization
(policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group.

Milestones

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core schema
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft
9/2012    WGLC SCIM core schema
9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful interface
9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML bindings
9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping
3/2013    Re-charter discussion
_______________________________________________
scim mailing = list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/scim

= --Apple-Mail=_31445394-D6C2-4BF8-8DEA-8C377024C7FF-- From mphmmr@gmail.com Tue Mar 13 13:06:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9E721F86AB for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:06:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gIv8AaBNVGIG for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35FB21F86AA for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbol12 with SMTP id l12so526618lbo.31 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=tLBv6yeThhZHPWgtgjmaqEa8p3crN3VB2m4qUsLLG18=; b=zi2IiVysVNf1e4xhgl6WgAl2d+71HlDr6hNkJOpKbZhB+J/KfwuA8EmC4HbPnf3lhN i5jeYP6oChPtnB408iKEEMXi2PAqwoMf3/VpOQgRql0ZCVLWcKSwua1hiGke5BQk32rj oZAU2MmAv/lpw7c8CIxXbOzaB3aZYsSVRwpOlRSWUQGj3z+leiiq8OhWoDVGZqgxugGo wrXY+NOVlR2LqiM6JoZLGFxAafMFF7uqtqtg4q59cizjCLepOw48O6xVzn1HE9oVX28X Ygm78X1MlogDjE6fSa5++BJ3qh1ZEwMcNJobCp8jRmsGXK1bktRHiFdVCm+PbEQqOizI JYlQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.38.37 with SMTP id d5mr6713252lbk.5.1331669188812; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.76.196 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:06:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: Michael Hammer To: Phil Hunt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe2ec4f51fd604bb2564c2 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre , Eliot Lear , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:06:32 -0000 --e0cb4efe2ec4f51fd604bb2564c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, So, this manages identities of cloud customers who may want to push a SaaS application into the cloud, AND allows management of the users of the SaaS application which are customers of the enterprise versus the cloud provider? Mike On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Eliot, > > I propose the following change to the WG Description: > > From: > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and > services easier. > > To: > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and > services easier between client organizations and cloud based service prov= iders. > > > The change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud providers > (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many services. > > It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 > specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the > re-published drafts under IETF. > > Phil > > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com > > > > > > On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the > charter. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some > substantial changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the charte= r > in line with most of the others. Absent these sort of changes, I am not > confident we would get a WG. Even with these changes, more work is neede= d. > because what is below is not complete. > > What is missing =96 *and it's important =96 * are a few additional words > about why we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is not > something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. Rather, if > there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG woul= d > approve a WG. So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below. I've put some > words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point. PLEASE propose te= xt. > > In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would suggest > that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as importantly =96 WON'T= do. > A good charter will scope out more. What are the critical functions that > need to be done *now*? If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of > people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold > the line and wait til the next round. So, for instance, how will we keep > the schema from bloating? Rinse and repeat with protocol operations. > > In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very quickl= y > after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial > specifications. Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the charter need no= t > =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before the BoF, we should have = it as > close as possible. > > > Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would > like to see. > > Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM)**** > > ****Chair(s): TBD******** > > ****Applications Area Director(s):**** > > Pete Resnick **** > Barry Lieba ** ** > > Mailing Lists:**** > General Discussion: scim@ietf.org**** > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim**** > Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/mail= list.html**** > > ** ** > > Description of Working Group:**** > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and > services easier. > > XXXXXXX > > So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often > necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on tools > such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date informati= on. > SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be > available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for= the > service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account = so > that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. > > XXXXXXXX**** > > The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing > schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of > development and integration, while applying existing authentication, > authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and > complexity of user management operations by providing a common user > schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide > patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In > addition the working group may consider including managing device > identities as part of the work adopted by the working group.**** > > The group will use as starting points the following drafts in > the following ways: > > draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, > draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification, > draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and > draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. > > These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are com= monly > known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for backw= ard > compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will consider, > for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing w= ork. > The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, = including > the OASIS Provisioning TC. > The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, > a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will make > consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall sy= stem, > identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address > internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either th= rough > IANA registries or other means). > > In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be > included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a lat= er time.** > However, **user, device, and service authentication and authorization > (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. > > Milestones > > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping > 3/2013 Re-charter discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > --e0cb4efe2ec4f51fd604bb2564c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil,

So, this manages identities of cloud customers who= may want to push a SaaS application into the cloud,
AND allows m= anagement of the users of the SaaS application which are customers of the e= nterprise versus the cloud provider?

Mike


On Tu= e, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
Eliot,

I propose the following chan= ge to the WG Description:

From:
The Simple Cloud Identity=
 Management (SCIM) specification is designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20
services easier.
To:
<= div>
The Simple Cloud Identi= ty Management (SCIM) specification is designed to=20 make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and=20 services easier between client organizations and cloud based service provid= ers.

The change ab= ove is subtle but of critical importance to cloud providers (many who are n= ot yet active in the group) who host many services.

It is probably important to site the location of the SC= IM 1.0 specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the r= e-published drafts under IETF.

Phil

@independentid
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear= wrote:

=20 =20 =20
Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the charter.=A0 Most of this is form and not substance,=A0 but there ar= e some substantial changes.=A0 The purpose of these changes is to bring the charter in line with most of the others.=A0 Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG.=A0 Even with these changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not complete.
What is missing =96 and it's important =96=A0 are a few addi= tional words about why we need SCIM.=A0 Why are we holding the darn BoF?=A0 This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document.=A0 Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.=A0 So that's what th= e big XXXXXXX is below.=A0 I've put some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point.=A0 PLEASE propose text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic.=A0 I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as importantly =96=A0 WON'T do.=A0 A good charter will scope out more.=A0 What are= the critical functions that need to be done now?=A0 If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round.=A0 So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating?=A0 Rinse and repeat with protocol operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications.=A0 Thus you see draft-XXX below.=A0 While the charter need not =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would like to see.

Simple Cloud Identity Manageme=
nt (SCIM)
Chair(s): TBD 
=
Applications Area Director(s):
=A0=A0=A0 =A0P=
ete Resnick <=
presnick@qualcomm.com> 
=A0=A0=A0=A0 Barry Lieba <???>=20

Mailing Lists:=

=A0=A0=A0=A0 General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
=A0=A0=A0=A0 To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim<=
/u>
=A0=A0=A0=A0 Archive:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 http://www.ietf.org=
/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html
=A0<=
/u>
Description of=
 Working Group:
The Simple Clo=
ud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20
services easier.

XXXXXXX

So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often
necessary to ease adoption of new services.  This work builds on tools
such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information=
.
SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be
available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for t=
he
service.  An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account so
that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in.

XXXXXXXX

The specificat=
ion suite seeks to build upon experience with existing=20
schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of=20
development and integration, while applying existing authentication,=20
authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and=20
complexity of user management operations by providing a common user=20
schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide=20
patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In=20
addition the working group may consider including managing device=20
identities as part of the work adopted by the working group.<=
/span>
The group will=
 use as starting points the following drafts in
the following ways:

	draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and
	draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP.

These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are commo=
nly
known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, some consideration should be given for backwar=
d
compatibility, as the group evolves the work.  This group will consider,
for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing wor=
k.
The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, in=
cluding
the OASIS Provisioning TC.

The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,
a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding.  In doing so, the group will make
consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall syst=
em,
identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address
internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either thro=
ugh
IANA registries or other means).

In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be
included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a later=
 time.

However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization
(policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group.

Milestones

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core schema
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft
9/2012    WGLC SCIM core schema
9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful interface
9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML bindings
9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping
3/2013    Re-charter discussion
_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


__________________________________________= _____
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


--e0cb4efe2ec4f51fd604bb2564c2-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Tue Mar 13 13:19:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B6521F851D for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z9MvAnHw6Zfe for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207A221F851A for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2DKImWT029415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:18:49 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2DKIlAh016283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:18:48 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2DKIlXN032321; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:18:47 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:18:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2BFCDC4E-28D3-4539-9A82-CEEFF755EBAD" From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:18:45 -0700 Message-Id: <06FF5A31-6EAC-4652-BD52-1E79BF98BE3F@oracle.com> References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> To: Michael Hammer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F5FABAA.008D,ss=1,re=-2.300,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Eliot Lear , Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:19:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2BFCDC4E-28D3-4539-9A82-CEEFF755EBAD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Sure. I was more thinking about how an enterprise provisions employees, = customers, etc to places like AOL, Amazon, Google, Oracle Cloud, etc etc = who run one or more services.=20 As a totally hypothetical example, how would I provision 'Ann' to be set = up on Google Docs, Calendar, and e-mail? Is this done through a SCIM = call to a Google Directory endpoint, or is this done directly to = specific app endpoints?=20 Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-13, at 1:06 PM, Michael Hammer wrote: > Phil, >=20 > So, this manages identities of cloud customers who may want to push a = SaaS application into the cloud, > AND allows management of the users of the SaaS application which are = customers of the enterprise versus the cloud provider? >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt = wrote: > Eliot, >=20 > I propose the following change to the WG Description: >=20 > From: >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 >> make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20= >> services easier. >=20 > To: >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 >> make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and=20= >> services easier between client organizations and cloud based service = providers. >=20 > The change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud = providers (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many = services. >=20 > It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 = specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the = re-published drafts under IETF. >=20 > Phil >=20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >> Hi Everyone, >>=20 >> Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the = charter. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some = substantial changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the = charter in line with most of the others. Absent these sort of changes, = I am not confident we would get a WG. Even with these changes, more = work is needed. because what is below is not complete. >>=20 >> What is missing =96 and it's important =96 are a few additional = words about why we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is = not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. = Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how = the IESG would approve a WG. So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below. = I've put some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point. = PLEASE propose text. >>=20 >> In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would = suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as importantly =96= WON'T do. A good charter will scope out more. What are the critical = functions that need to be done now? If we leave it wide open, then we = run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to = decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round. So, for = instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating? Rinse and repeat = with protocol operations. >>=20 >> In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very = quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial = specifications. Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the charter need = not =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before the BoF, we should = have it as close as possible. >>=20 >>=20 >> Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you = would like to see. >>=20 >> Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) >> Chair(s): TBD >> Applications Area Director(s): >> Pete Resnick =20 >> Barry Lieba =20 >> Mailing Lists: >> General Discussion: scim@ietf.org >> To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> Archive: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html >> =20 >> Description of Working Group: >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 >> make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20= >> services easier. >>=20 >> XXXXXXX >>=20 >> So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are = often >> necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on = tools >> such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date = information. >> SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not = be >> available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context = for the >> service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail = account so >> that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. >>=20 >> XXXXXXXX >> The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing=20= >> schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of=20= >> development and integration, while applying existing authentication,=20= >> authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost = and=20 >> complexity of user management operations by providing a common user=20= >> schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide=20= >> patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In=20 >> addition the working group may consider including managing device=20 >> identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. >> The group will use as starting points the following drafts in >> the following ways: >>=20 >> draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, >> draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol = specification, >> draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = SAML, and >> draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = LDAP. >>=20 >> These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are = commonly >> known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for = backward >> compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will = consider, >> for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the = existing work. >> The group will also consider experiences with work done by other = bodies, including >> the OASIS Provisioning TC. >>=20 >> The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, >> a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will = make >> consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the = overall system, >> identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, = address >> internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility = (either through >> IANA registries or other means). >>=20 >> In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities = should be >> included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a = later time. >>=20 >> However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization >> (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. >>=20 >> Milestones >>=20 >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_2BFCDC4E-28D3-4539-9A82-CEEFF755EBAD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Sure. =  I was more thinking about how an enterprise provisions employees, = customers, etc to places like AOL, Amazon, Google, Oracle Cloud, etc etc = who run one or more services. 

As a totally = hypothetical example, how would I provision 'Ann' to be set up on Google = Docs, Calendar, and e-mail?  Is this done through a SCIM call to a = Google Directory endpoint, or is this done directly to specific app = endpoints? 

Phil

On 2012-03-13, at 1:06 PM, Michael Hammer wrote:

Phil,

So, this manages identities of = cloud customers who may want to push a SaaS application into the = cloud,
AND allows management of the users of the SaaS = application which are customers of the enterprise versus the cloud = provider?

Mike


On = Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> = wrote:
Eliot,

I propose the following = change to the WG = Description:

From:
The =
Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20
services =
easier.
To:
The Simple Cloud Identity =
Management (SCIM) specification is designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and=20
services easier between client organizations and cloud based service =
providers.

The = change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud providers = (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many services.

It is probably important to site the location of the = SCIM 1.0 specification which is published externally to IETF as well as = the re-published drafts under = IETF.

Phil

@independentid
= phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot = Lear wrote:

=20 =20 =20
Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the charter.  Most of this is form and not substance,  but = there are some substantial changes.  The purpose of these changes is to = bring the charter in line with most of the others.  Absent these sort = of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG.  Even with these changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not = complete.

What is missing =96 and it's important =96  are a few = additional words about why we need SCIM.  Why are we holding the darn = BoF?  This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document.  Rather, if there is no clear statement of the = problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.  So that's what the = big XXXXXXX is below.  I've put some words in, but they are there = to demonstrate the point.  PLEASE propose text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic.  I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as = importantly =96  WON'T do.  A good charter will scope out more.  = What are the critical functions that need to be done now?  If we = leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round.  So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating?  Rinse and repeat with protocol operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications.  Thus you see draft-XXX below.  = While the charter need not =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before = the BoF, we should have it as close as possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would like to see.

Simple Cloud Identity Management =
(SCIM)
Chair(s): TBD 
Applications Area =
Director(s):
     Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> 
     Barry Lieba <???>=20

Mailing =
Lists:
     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
     To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=

     Archive:      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/mailli=
st.html
 
Description =
of Working Group:
The Simple =
Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to=20
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20
services easier.

XXXXXXX

So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often
necessary to ease adoption of new services.  This work builds on tools
such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date =
information.
SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be
available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context =
for the
service.  An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account =
so
that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in.

XXXXXXXX

The =
specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing=20
schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of=20
development and integration, while applying existing authentication,=20
authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and=20=

complexity of user management operations by providing a common user=20
schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide=20
patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In=20
addition the working group may consider including managing device=20
identities as part of the work adopted by the working =
group.
The group =
will use as starting points the following drafts in
the following ways:

	draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol =
specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to =
SAML, and
	draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to =
LDAP.

These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are =
commonly
known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, some consideration should be given for =
backward
compatibility, as the group evolves the work.  This group will =
consider,
for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing =
work.
The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, =
including
the OASIS Provisioning TC.

The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,
a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding.  In doing so, the group will make
consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall =
system,
identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address
internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either =
through
IANA registries or other means).

In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should =
be
included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a =
later time.

However, user, device, and service authentication and =
authorization
(policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group.

Milestones

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core schema
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft
9/2012    WGLC SCIM core schema
9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful interface
9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML bindings
9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping
3/2013    Re-charter discussion
_______________________________________________
scim mailing = list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
=


_________________________________________= ______
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


_______________________________________________
scim mailing = list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/scim

= --Apple-Mail=_2BFCDC4E-28D3-4539-9A82-CEEFF755EBAD-- From prvs=412d8a981=Mark.Diodati@gartner.com Tue Mar 13 13:25:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8B721E8012 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:25:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pknO1j3WNr3V for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinc-main.gartner.com (zinc-main.gartner.com [207.140.148.90]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BDF21F860F for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqAEAAmsX08KQCMK/2dsb2JhbAA5AQmCRbQuggkBAQEEAQEBRiUbAgEIEQQBAQsCCQsHByEGCxQHAQEFAwIEEwgBiAy7W4lCZgEIgwaCS2MEkW+DYYsrhHiCZYFc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,579,1325480400"; d="scan'208,217";a="72235155" From: "Diodati,Mark" To: "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [scim] Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAVaNsBHjcgK210WnM/tHVCkvhJZoqyaQ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:25:48 +0000 References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.127.2.129] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D8A3C5E7F4A8B44BB49BF6E8D140E4A606CD3D15Altaentgartnerc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20120313202551.79BDF21F860F@ietfa.amsl.com> Subject: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:25:56 -0000 --_000_D8A3C5E7F4A8B44BB49BF6E8D140E4A606CD3D15Altaentgartnerc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems to me that Phil's proposed change to the description are in line w= ith his request to add support for multiple targets a la SPML. The latter r= equest has not been accepted (AFAIK) by the BoF. Before accepting changes t= o the description, should the BoF first decide about the multi-target funct= ionality? Mark From: Michael Hammer [mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:06 PM To: Phil Hunt Cc: scim@ietf.org; Peter Saint-Andre; Eliot Lear; Steven M. Bellovin Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter Phil, So, this manages identities of cloud customers who may want to push a SaaS = application into the cloud, AND allows management of the users of the SaaS application which are custom= ers of the enterprise versus the cloud provider? Mike On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt > wrote: Eliot, I propose the following change to the WG Description: From: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier. To: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and services easier between client organizations and cloud based service provid= ers. The change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud providers (m= any who are not yet active in the group) who host many services. It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 specification= which is published externally to IETF as well as the re-published drafts u= nder IETF. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: Hi Everyone, Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the chart= er. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some substantia= l changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the charter in line wi= th most of the others. Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we= would get a WG. Even with these changes, more work is needed. because wha= t is below is not complete. What is missing - and it's important - are a few additional words about wh= y we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is not something th= at can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. Rather, if there is no c= lear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.= So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below. I've put some words in, but the= y are there to demonstrate the point. PLEASE propose text. In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would suggest tha= t more time be spent on what we will - and as importantly - WON'T do. A g= ood charter will scope out more. What are the critical functions that need= to be done now? If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people = shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line = and wait til the next round. So, for instance, how will we keep the schema= from bloating? Rinse and repeat with protocol operations. In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before - or very quickly af= ter - our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications= . Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the charter need not - and cannot -= be completely finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as possi= ble. Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would li= ke to see. Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) Chair(s): TBD Applications Area Director(s): Pete Resnick > Barry Lieba Mailing Lists: General Discussion: scim@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/mailli= st.html Description of Working Group: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and services easier. XXXXXXX So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on tools such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information= . SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for t= he service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account so that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. XXXXXXXX The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In addition the working group may consider including managing device identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. The group will use as starting points the following drafts in the following ways: draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification, draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are commo= nly known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for backwar= d compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will consider, for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing wor= k. The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, in= cluding the OASIS Provisioning TC. The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will make consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall syst= em, identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either thro= ugh IANA registries or other means). In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a later= time. However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. Milestones 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping 3/2013 Re-charter discussion _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the = person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confid= ential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have = received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute,= or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender= immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any a= ttachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus fr= ee. --_000_D8A3C5E7F4A8B44BB49BF6E8D140E4A606CD3D15Altaentgartnerc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It seems to me that Phi= l’s proposed change to the description are in line with his request t= o add support for multiple targets a la SPML. The latter request has not been accepted (AFAIK) by the BoF. Before accepting changes to the = description, should the BoF first decide about the multi-target functionali= ty?

 

Mark

 

From: Michae= l Hammer [mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:06 PM
To: Phil Hunt
Cc: scim@ietf.org; Peter Saint-Andre; Eliot Lear; Steven M. Bellovin=
Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter

 

Phil,

 

So, this manages identities of cloud customers who m= ay want to push a SaaS application into the cloud,

AND allows management of the users of the SaaS appli= cation which are customers of the enterprise versus the cloud provider?

 

Mike

 

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

Eliot,

 

I propose the following change to the WG Description:<= /span>

 

From:

 
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed =
to 
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and =

services easier.

To:

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed =
to 
make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and =

services easier between client organizations and cloud based service p=
roviders.

 

The change above is subtle but of critical importance = to cloud providers (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many= services.

 

It is probably important to site the location of the S= CIM 1.0 specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the = re-published drafts under IETF.

 

Phil

 

@independentid

phil.hunt@oracle.com

 

 

 

On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the chart= er.  Most of this is form and not substance,  but there are some = substantial changes.  The purpose of these changes is to bring the cha= rter in line with most of the others.  Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG.  Even with the= se changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not complete.

What is missing – and it's important –  are a few a= dditional words about why we need SCIM.  Why are we holding the darn B= oF?  This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational d= ocument.  Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.  So that's what the big = XXXXXXX is below.  I've put some words in, but they are there to demon= strate the point.  PLEASE propose text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic.  I would sugges= t that more time be spent on what we will – and as importantly –= ;  WON'T do.  A good charter will scope out more.  What are = the critical functions that need to be done now?  If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people = shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line = and wait til the next round.  So, for instance, how will we keep the s= chema from bloating?  Rinse and repeat with protocol operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before – or very quic= kly after – our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial sp= ecifications.  Thus you see draft-XXX below.  While the charter n= eed not – and cannot – be completely finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would li= ke to see.

Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM)

= Chair(s): TBD 

Applications Area Director(s):
     Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> 
     Barry Lieba <???> 
Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
     To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/scim
     Archive:      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.htm=
l
 
Description of Working Group:
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed =
to 
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and =

services easier.
 
XXXXXXX
 
So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are ofte=
n
necessary to ease adoption of new services.  This work builds on =
tools
such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date inform=
ation.
SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be=

available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context =
for the
service.  An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail =
account so
that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in.
 
XXXXXXXX
The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing <=
/pre>

schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of 

development and integration, while applying existing authentication, <=
/pre>

authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost an=
d 


complexity of user management operations by providing a common user 

schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide 

patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In 

addition the working group may consider including managing device 

identities as part of the work adopted by the working group.


The group will use as starting points the following drafts in


the following ways:


 


  draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification,


  draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specifica=
tion,


  draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to S=
AML, and


  draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to L=
DAP.


 


These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are =
commonly


known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, some consideration should be given f=
or backward


compatibility, as the group evolves the work.  This group will co=
nsider,


for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existin=
g work.


The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodie=
s, including


the OASIS Provisioning TC.


 


The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,

a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding.  In doing so, the group will=
 make


consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall=
 system,


identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address=



internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either=
 through


IANA registries or other means).


 


In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should=
 be


included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a =
later time.


 


However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization

(policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group.


 


Milestones


 


5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core schema


5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface dr=
aft


5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft<=
/pre>

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft

9/2012    WGLC SCIM core schema


9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful interface


9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML bindings


9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping


3/2013    Re-charter discussion


 

_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

 


_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

 



This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the = person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confid= ential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have = received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message = or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail a= nd permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no wa= rranty that this e-mail is error or virus free.
 --_000_D8A3C5E7F4A8B44BB49BF6E8D140E4A606CD3D15Altaentgartnerc_-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Tue Mar 13 13:58:19 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD3721F853A for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:58:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E96yZFYCfZWD for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE2421F851D for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2DKwEPf013206 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:58:15 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2DKwEN8013148 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:58:14 GMT Received: from abhmt114.oracle.com (abhmt114.oracle.com [141.146.116.66]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2DKwDq8004286; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:58:13 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:58:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_266E2656-90BA-42E0-9FF9-E3D8941C1F68" From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <20120313202551.79BDF21F860F@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:58:03 -0700 Message-Id: <71B91DB0-7F03-473B-B7F4-3D7E3F020B55@oracle.com> References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <20120313202551.79BDF21F860F@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Diodati,Mark" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F5FB4E7.00C2,ss=1,re=-6.500,fgs=0 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:58:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_266E2656-90BA-42E0-9FF9-E3D8941C1F68 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 My understanding is that it has been accepted for the BoF. Can someone = clarify? Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-13, at 1:25 PM, Diodati,Mark wrote: > It seems to me that Phil=92s proposed change to the description are in = line with his request to add support for multiple targets a la SPML. The = latter request has not been accepted (AFAIK) by the BoF. Before = accepting changes to the description, should the BoF first decide about = the multi-target functionality? > =20 > Mark > =20 > From: Michael Hammer [mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:06 PM > To: Phil Hunt > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Peter Saint-Andre; Eliot Lear; Steven M. Bellovin > Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter > =20 > Phil, > =20 > So, this manages identities of cloud customers who may want to push a = SaaS application into the cloud, > AND allows management of the users of the SaaS application which are = customers of the enterprise versus the cloud provider? > =20 > Mike > =20 > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt = wrote: > Eliot, > =20 > I propose the following change to the WG Description: > =20 > From: > =20 > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20= > services easier. > To: > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and=20= > services easier between client organizations and cloud based service = providers. > =20 > The change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud = providers (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many = services. > =20 > It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 = specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the = re-published drafts under IETF. > =20 > Phil > =20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > =20 > Hi Everyone, >=20 > Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the = charter. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some = substantial changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the = charter in line with most of the others. Absent these sort of changes, = I am not confident we would get a WG. Even with these changes, more = work is needed. because what is below is not complete. >=20 > What is missing =96 and it's important =96 are a few additional words = about why we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is not = something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. Rather, = if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG = would approve a WG. So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below. I've put = some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point. PLEASE = propose text. >=20 > In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would = suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96 and as importantly =96= WON'T do. A good charter will scope out more. What are the critical = functions that need to be done now? If we leave it wide open, then we = run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to = decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round. So, for = instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating? Rinse and repeat = with protocol operations. >=20 > In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before =96 or very = quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial = specifications. Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the charter need = not =96 and cannot =96 be completely finished before the BoF, we should = have it as close as possible. >=20 >=20 > Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you = would like to see. >=20 > Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) > Chair(s): TBD > Applications Area Director(s): > Pete Resnick =20 > Barry Lieba =20 > Mailing Lists: > General Discussion: scim@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > Archive: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html > =20 > Description of Working Group: > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and=20= > services easier. > =20 > XXXXXXX > =20 > So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are = often > necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on tools > such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date = information. > SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be > available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context = for the > service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail = account so > that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. > =20 > XXXXXXXX > The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing=20= > schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of=20 > development and integration, while applying existing authentication,=20= > authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost = and=20 > complexity of user management operations by providing a common user=20 > schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide=20 > patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In=20 > addition the working group may consider including managing device=20 > identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. > The group will use as starting points the following drafts in > the following ways: > =20 > draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, > draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification, > draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, = and > draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. > =20 > These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are = commonly > known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for = backward > compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will = consider, > for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the = existing work. > The group will also consider experiences with work done by other = bodies, including > the OASIS Provisioning TC. > =20 > The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, > a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will make > consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall = system, > identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address > internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either = through > IANA registries or other means). > =20 > In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should = be > included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a = later time. > =20 > However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization > (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. > =20 > Milestones > =20 > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft > 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings > 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping > 3/2013 Re-charter discussion > =20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of = the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is = confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient = or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, = distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please = notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete = this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this = e-mail is error or virus free. > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_266E2656-90BA-42E0-9FF9-E3D8941C1F68 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252

On 2012-03-13, at 1:25 PM, Diodati,Mark wrote:

It seems to me that = Phil=92s proposed change to the description are in line with his request = to add support for multiple targets a la SPML. The latter request has = not been accepted (AFAIK) by the BoF. Before accepting changes to the = description, should the BoF first decide about the multi-target = functionality?

 

From: Michael Hammer = [mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 = 3:06 PM
To: Phil = Hunt
Cc: scim@ietf.org; Peter Saint-Andre; Eliot Lear; Steven M. = Bellovin
Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape = of charter

 

Phil,

 

So, this manages = identities of cloud customers who may want to push a SaaS application = into the cloud,
AND allows management of = the users of the SaaS application which are customers of the enterprise = versus the cloud provider?

 

Mike
 
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> = wrote:
I propose the following change to the WG = Description:

From:

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) =
specification is designed to 
make managing user identity =
lifecycle in cloud based applications and 
services =
easier.
The Simple Cloud Identity Management =
(SCIM) specification is designed to 
make managing user identity =
lifecycle in one or more applications and 
services easier between =
client organizations and cloud based service =
providers.

The change above is subtle but of critical = importance to cloud providers (many who are not yet active in the group) = who host many services.

It is probably important to site the location = of the SCIM 1.0 specification which is published externally to IETF as = well as the re-published drafts under IETF.

 

Phil

 

@independentid

 

Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am = proposing some changes to the charter.  Most of this is form and = not substance,  but there are some substantial changes.  The = purpose of these changes is to bring the charter in line with most of = the others.  Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we = would get a WG.  Even with these changes, more work is needed. = because what is below is not complete.

What is missing =96 and it's important = =96  are a = few additional words about why we need SCIM.  Why are we holding = the darn BoF?  This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an = Informational document.  Rather, if there is no clear statement of = the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.  So = that's what the big XXXXXXX is below.  I've put some words in, but = they are there to demonstrate the point.  PLEASE propose = text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, = generic.  I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will =96= and as importantly =96  WON'T do.  A good charter will scope = out more.  What are the critical functions that need to be = done now?  = If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too = much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait = til the next round.  So, for instance, how will we keep the schema = from bloating?  Rinse and repeat with protocol = operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly = before =96 or very quickly after =96 our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be = posted of the initial specifications.  Thus you see draft-XXX = below.  While the charter need not =96 and cannot =96 be completely = finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as = possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any = additional changes you would like to see.

Simple Cloud Identity =
Management (SCIM)
Applications Area Director(s):
presnick@qualcomm.com> =

     Barry Lieba <???> 
     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
Description of Working Group:
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based =
applications and 
services easier.
 
XXXXXXX
So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning =
operations are often
necessary to ease adoption of new =
services.  This work builds on tools
such as ldap and SAML =
2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information.
available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient =
context for the
service.  An example would be the provisioning of =
an of an EMail account so
that it can receive mail before the =
person has first logged in.
 
XXXXXXXX
schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity =
of 
development and integration, while applying existing =
authentication, 
authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to =
reduce the cost and 
complexity of user management operations =
by providing a common user 
schema and extension model, as well =
as binding documents to provide 
patterns for exchanging this schema =
using standard protocols. In 
addition the working group may =
consider including managing device 
identities as part of the work =
adopted by the working group.
The group will use as starting =
points the following drafts in
the following ways:
  draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema =
specification,
  draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the =
protocol specification,
  =
draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, =
and
  draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM =
schema to LDAP.
 
These drafts are based on existing =
specifications. which together are commonly
known as SCIM 1.0.  =
As such, some consideration should be given for backward
for and foremost, the operational experience gathered =
from the existing work.
The group will also consider =
experiences with work done by other bodies, including
 
The group will produce =
Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,
consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the =
overall system,
identify any functional gaps that would be useful =
future work, address
internationalization, and provide =
guidelines for extensibility (either through
 
In its work, the group =
will decide what additional capabilities should be
 
However, user, device, and service =
authentication and authorization
(policy/entitlement) are out of =
scope for this working group.
 
Milestones
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core =
schema
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM =
restful interface draft
5/2012    Initial =
adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft
5/2012    Initial =
adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft
9/2012    WGLC SCIM =
core schema
9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful =
interface
9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML =
bindings
9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP =
mapping
3/2013    Re-charter =
discussion
 
scim@ietf.org
 


_______________________________________________
scim = mailing list
scim@ietf.org
 



This e-mail message, = including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it = has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or = legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have = received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, = distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please = notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete = this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this = e-mail is error or virus = free.
_______________________________________________
scim = mailing list
scim@ietf.org
, "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:59:50 -0000 On 3/13/12 2:58 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > My understanding is that it has been accepted for the BoF. Can someone > clarify? The BoF has been accepted. We're using this list to work out the specific topics to be discussed, among other things, and the charter is a big part of that. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From prvs=412d8a981=Mark.Diodati@gartner.com Tue Mar 13 14:01:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1D421E8015 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:01:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxSXH+Gs+TB6 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinc-main.gartner.com (zinc-main.gartner.com [207.140.148.90]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1B421F85E3 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqAEADG1X08KQCMK/2dsb2JhbABDhTqvOYIDggkBAQEEIxFRBAIBCBEEAQEBAgIGHQMCAgIwFAEHAQgCBBMIsWWSBwSBL4kChS8zYwSVUJAjgmWBXA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,579,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="72239179" From: "Diodati,Mark" To: "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAVw7YpfMEUbcYUy6hHiFfEtBAZZoteNg Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:01:41 +0000 References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <20120313202551.79BDF21F860F@ietfa.amsl.com> <71B91DB0-7F03-473B-B7F4-3D7E3F020B55@oracle.com> <4F5FB543.7090804@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F5FB543.7090804@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.127.2.129] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20120313210143.9F1B421F85E3@ietfa.amsl.com> Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:01:44 -0000 VGhlIEJvRiBoYXMgYmVlbiBhY2NlcHRlZCBieSBJRVRGLiBUaGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gaXMsIGhhdmUg dGhlIEJvRiBtZW1iZXJzIGFjY2VwdGVkIHRoZSByZXF1ZXN0IHRvIGFkZCBtdWx0aS10YXJnZXQg c3VwcG9ydD8NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFBldGVyIFNhaW50 LUFuZHJlIFttYWlsdG86c3RwZXRlckBzdHBldGVyLmltXQ0KU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgTWFyY2gg MTMsIDIwMTIgNDowMCBQTQ0KVG86IFBoaWwgSHVudA0KQ2M6IERpb2RhdGksTWFyazsgc2NpbUBp ZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtzY2ltXSBGVzogUHJvcG9zZSByZXNoYXBlIG9mIGNoYXJ0 ZXINCg0KT24gMy8xMy8xMiAyOjU4IFBNLCBQaGlsIEh1bnQgd3JvdGU6DQo+IE15IHVuZGVyc3Rh bmRpbmcgaXMgdGhhdCBpdCBoYXMgYmVlbiBhY2NlcHRlZCBmb3IgdGhlIEJvRi4gIENhbg0KPiBz b21lb25lIGNsYXJpZnk/DQoNClRoZSBCb0YgaGFzIGJlZW4gYWNjZXB0ZWQuIFdlJ3JlIHVzaW5n IHRoaXMgbGlzdCB0byB3b3JrIG91dCB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWMgdG9waWNzIHRvIGJlIGRpc2N1c3Nl ZCwgYW1vbmcgb3RoZXIgdGhpbmdzLCBhbmQgdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgaXMgYSBiaWcgcGFydCBvZiB0 aGF0Lg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KDQotLQ0KUGV0ZXIgU2FpbnQtQW5kcmUNCmh0dHBzOi8vc3RwZXRlci5p bS8NCg0KDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQoNClRoaXMgZS1tYWls IG1lc3NhZ2UsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBhbnkgYXR0YWNobWVudHMsIGlzIGZvciB0aGUgc29sZSB1c2Ug b2YgdGhlIHBlcnNvbiB0byB3aG9tIGl0IGhhcyBiZWVuIHNlbnQsIGFuZCBtYXkgY29udGFpbiBp bmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0aGF0IGlzIGNvbmZpZGVudGlhbCBvciBsZWdhbGx5IHByb3RlY3RlZC4gSWYg eW91IGFyZSBub3QgdGhlIGludGVuZGVkIHJlY2lwaWVudCBvciBoYXZlIHJlY2VpdmVkIHRoaXMg bWVzc2FnZSBpbiBlcnJvciwgeW91IGFyZSBub3QgYXV0aG9yaXplZCB0byBjb3B5LCBkaXN0cmli dXRlLCBvciBvdGhlcndpc2UgdXNlIHRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZSBvciBpdHMgYXR0YWNobWVudHMuIFBs ZWFzZSBub3RpZnkgdGhlIHNlbmRlciBpbW1lZGlhdGVseSBieSByZXR1cm4gZS1tYWlsIGFuZCBw ZXJtYW5lbnRseSBkZWxldGUgdGhpcyBtZXNzYWdlIGFuZCBhbnkgYXR0YWNobWVudHMuIEdhcnRu ZXIgbWFrZXMgbm8gd2FycmFudHkgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGUtbWFpbCBpcyBlcnJvciBvciB2aXJ1cyBm cmVlLg0K From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 13 14:23:02 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638D721F863F for ; 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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgMFACW6X0+Q/khM/2dsb2JhbAA5AQmCRYJ1sDWBB4IJAQEBBAEBAQ8BECYlCgEQCQIVAwkDCQoBBwMCAgkDAgECARUfEQYNAQMCAgEBBRmHaAucZAGMcZINiigBCIMXghiBFgSRb4NhkCOCZj2BHg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,579,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="68399903" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2012 21:22:58 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com [10.61.99.194]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2DLMvki029178; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:22:57 GMT Message-ID: <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:22:57 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030609000404040702060205" Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:23:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030609000404040702060205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Everyone: Please voice your support or opposition to the proposed change below (and any other proposed change) that comes through. Stating WHY helps advance the debate. Thanks, Eliot On 3/13/12 8:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Eliot, > > I propose the following change to the WG Description: > > From: >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to >> make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and >> services easier. > To: >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to >> make managing user identity lifecycle in one or more applications and >> services easier between client organizations and cloud based service providers. > > The change above is subtle but of critical importance to cloud > providers (many who are not yet active in the group) who host many > services. > > It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 > specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the > re-published drafts under IETF. > > Phil > > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com > > > > > > On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the >> charter. Most of this is form and not substance, but there are some >> substantial changes. The purpose of these changes is to bring the >> charter in line with most of the others. Absent these sort of >> changes, I am not confident we would get a WG. Even with these >> changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not complete. >> >> What is missing – *and it's important – * are a few additional words >> about why we need SCIM. Why are we holding the darn BoF? This is >> not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document. >> Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see >> how the IESG would approve a WG. So that's what the big XXXXXXX is >> below. I've put some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the >> point. PLEASE propose text. >> >> In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic. I would >> suggest that more time be spent on what we will – and as importantly >> – WON'T do. A good charter will scope out more. What are the >> critical functions that need to be done *now*? If we leave it wide >> open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or >> blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the >> next round. So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from >> bloating? Rinse and repeat with protocol operations. >> >> In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before – or very >> quickly after – our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the >> initial specifications. Thus you see draft-XXX below. While the >> charter need not – and cannot – be completely finished before the >> BoF, we should have it as close as possible. >> >> >> Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you >> would like to see. >> >> Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) >> Chair(s): TBD >> Applications Area Director(s): >> Pete Resnick > >> Barry Lieba >> Mailing Lists: >> General Discussion: scim@ietf.org >> To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html >> >> Description of Working Group: >> The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to >> make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and >> services easier. >> >> XXXXXXX >> >> So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often >> necessary to ease adoption of new services. This work builds on tools >> such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information. >> SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be >> available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for the >> service. An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account so >> that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in. >> >> XXXXXXXX >> The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing >> schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of >> development and integration, while applying existing authentication, >> authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and >> complexity of user management operations by providing a common user >> schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide >> patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In >> addition the working group may consider including managing device >> identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. >> The group will use as starting points the following drafts in >> the following ways: >> >> draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification, >> draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification, >> draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and >> draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. >> >> These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are commonly >> known as SCIM 1.0. As such, some consideration should be given for backward >> compatibility, as the group evolves the work. This group will consider, >> for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing work. >> The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, including >> the OASIS Provisioning TC. >> >> The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol, >> a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding. In doing so, the group will make >> consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall system, >> identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address >> internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either through >> IANA registries or other means). >> >> In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be >> included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a later time. >> >> However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization >> (policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group. >> >> Milestones >> >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft >> 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM core schema >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM restful interface >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM SAML bindings >> 9/2012 WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping >> 3/2013 Re-charter discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > --------------030609000404040702060205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Everyone:

Please voice your support or opposition to the proposed change below (and any other proposed change) that comes through.  Stating WHY helps advance the debate.

Thanks,

Eliot

On 3/13/12 8:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-13, at 12:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Everyone,

Having read inputs from this list, I am proposing some changes to the charter.  Most of this is form and not substance,  but there are some substantial changes.  The purpose of these changes is to bring the charter in line with most of the others.  Absent these sort of changes, I am not confident we would get a WG.  Even with these changes, more work is needed. because what is below is not complete.

What is missing – and it's important –  are a few additional words about why we need SCIM.  Why are we holding the darn BoF?  This is not something that can wait, IMHO, for an Informational document.  Rather, if there is no clear statement of the problem, I don't see how the IESG would approve a WG.  So that's what the big XXXXXXX is below.  I've put some words in, but they are there to demonstrate the point.  PLEASE propose text.

In addition, my rewording is, in some places, generic.  I would suggest that more time be spent on what we will – and as importantly –  WON'T do.  A good charter will scope out more.  What are the critical functions that need to be done now?  If we leave it wide open, then we run the risk of people shoveling too much in, or blocking on how to decide where to hold the line and wait til the next round.  So, for instance, how will we keep the schema from bloating?  Rinse and repeat with protocol operations.

In addition, it is my anticipation that shortly before – or very quickly after – our BoF, Internet-Drafts will be posted of the initial specifications.  Thus you see draft-XXX below.  While the charter need not – and cannot – be completely finished before the BoF, we should have it as close as possible.


Please comment now on these changes and any additional changes you would like to see.

Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM)
Chair(s): TBD 
Applications Area Director(s):
     Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> 
     Barry Lieba <???> 

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: scim@ietf.org
     To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
     Archive:      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/scim/current/maillist.html
 
Description of Working Group:
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to 
make managing user identity lifecycle in cloud based applications and 
services easier.

XXXXXXX

So-called CReate Update Delete (CRUD) provisioning operations are often
necessary to ease adoption of new services.  This work builds on tools
such as ldap and SAML 2.0, which are used to provide up-to-date information.
SCIM focuses on the case where an enterprise's ldap service may not be
available to the provider, and SAML cannot provide sufficient context for the
service.  An example would be the provisioning of an of an EMail account so
that it can receive mail before the person has first logged in.

XXXXXXXX

The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing 
schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of 
development and integration, while applying existing authentication, 
authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and 
complexity of user management operations by providing a common user 
schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide 
patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In 
addition the working group may consider including managing device 
identities as part of the work adopted by the working group.
The group will use as starting points the following drafts in
the following ways:

	draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the a schema specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification,
	draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and
	draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP.

These drafts are based on existing specifications. which together are commonly
known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, some consideration should be given for backward
compatibility, as the group evolves the work.  This group will consider,
for and foremost, the operational experience gathered from the existing work.
The group will also consider experiences with work done by other bodies, including
the OASIS Provisioning TC.

The group will produce Proposed Standards for a schema, a protocol,
a SAML binding, and an LDAP binding.  In doing so, the group will make
consistent the terminology, review and improve security of the overall system,
identify any functional gaps that would be useful future work, address
internationalization, and provide guidelines for extensibility (either through
IANA registries or other means).

In its work, the group will decide what additional capabilities should be
included in the initial specification, and what can be addressed at a later time.

However, user, device, and service authentication and authorization
(policy/entitlement) are out of scope for this working group.

Milestones

5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM core schema
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft
5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM LDAP mapping draft
9/2012    WGLC SCIM core schema
9/2012    WGLC SCIM restful interface
9/2012    WGLC SCIM SAML bindings
9/2012    WGLC SCIM LDAP mapping
3/2013    Re-charter discussion
_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

--------------030609000404040702060205-- From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 13 15:19:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76FB21E8042 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:19:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OJLnVoc8hKT7 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bgl-iport-2.cisco.com (bgl-iport-2.cisco.com [72.163.197.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFB821E8028 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:19:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=4031; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331677195; x=1332886795; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=Tqfj076RJmeS3IcZhk/Zc4IV5bq3JgOSXaKh6MK9RD4=; b=RHYkIVQbD3cRi/hnK8eEzezG4mbvZISsiZHHRNyGaSczyVwLENBDAl7G cy6bUbi1vfR4ITEPWJcnOzKpu9ZdapPBNCUlpERrIumn8gASD0IXVDlBr gWmnYzXHHJgmvkjEVIjsML1QBFDYtRj9XN+/t4MOeUTf5rae3lH68LmGF M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap8EALbHX09Io8UY/2dsb2JhbABDhTqxPIIJAQEBBBIBEFUBEAsYCRYLAgIJAwIBAgFFBg0BBwEBHodonGQBjHGSBY9ggRYEkW+DYZAjgmY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,579,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="7794484" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-1.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2012 22:19:53 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com [10.61.99.194]) by bgl-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2DMJnqY030346; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:19:50 GMT Message-ID: <4F5FC804.4080208@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:19:48 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000805040304070909020906" Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:19:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000805040304070909020906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, I failed to address a point you made below: On 3/13/12 8:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > > It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 > specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the > re-published drafts under IETF. > I believe it is important to both cite and acknowledge the earlier work, but I don't know that the charter is the right place to do it. This having been said, the charter is one place where we have prominent static content. Pete, what would the IESG want, here? Eliot --------------000805040304070909020906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Phil,

I failed to address a point you made below:

On 3/13/12 8:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:

It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the re-published drafts under IETF.


I believe it is important to both cite and acknowledge the earlier work, but I don't know that the charter is the right place to do it.  This having been said, the charter is one place where we have prominent static content.  Pete, what would the IESG want, here?

Eliot
--------------000805040304070909020906-- From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 13 15:38:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C4321E803C for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f1UbHkU1qzHC for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD1021E8028 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:38:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=4363; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331678308; x=1332887908; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to; bh=+rsqt8TE9y1RowITbWcbBOGPrnicMhRvH4thadryUno=; b=FBXwnOk+MP63sdcG74O9vc5DjlTNls00dAc60onX2y4NcxGFZFOsDmQy cZ9zKGriEheKxUtuoYiW+ZAX8Y8YFhHAU+TtfO2PW340FrRbX4rOeUHC9 p0wjLB3zVMDq4ldQjfdwxPoyd2KTS1E6ntZMXbKoPNmJzpolza9nFmkHO 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EANbLX0+Q/khR/2dsb2JhbABDhTqwNYEHggoBAQQSARBPBhEPHRYLAgIJAwIBAgFFEwgBAR6HaJxaAYxxkgWPYIEWBJVQkCOCZg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,579,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="68405260" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2012 22:38:26 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-99-194.cisco.com [10.61.99.194]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2DMcQJm015741 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:38:26 GMT Message-ID: <4F5FCC62.6070409@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:38:26 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org References: <4F5F9CBF.3050205@cisco.com> <18C03700-30B7-48D9-A63E-00236CBA209C@cs.columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <18C03700-30B7-48D9-A63E-00236CBA209C@cs.columbia.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040203080807000503020809" Subject: [scim] draft agenda for the SCIM BoF X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:38:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040203080807000503020809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone (yet again), Below is a draft agenda, based on the earlier message I had sent, and with review from my co-chair, Steve Bellovin. Please review and comment. Agendas are subject to change right up 'til the beginning of the session. Of course I would prefer to avoid that. Better to bash here on the list then spend valuable time in the meeting. Presenters are encouraged to incorporate as many views as possible to provide a complete picture, for purposes of decision making. At the same time, we don't have all day, and so conciseness is important. We have received a request for an additional slot for presentation which is not yet reflected on this draft agenda. In considering requests for presentation time slots, please keep in mind the following: Will the presentation advance the discussion about whether to create a WG or what its charter should be? * Comments, Please! *Eliot ps: all times are approximate 9:00 – 9:02 I Agenda Bashing 9:02 – 9:15 II Introduction by the chairs, and a description of the BoF process, including potential outcomes 9:15 – 9:45 III Description of the pre-provisioning problem, why this is important, and relation to existing work (Morteza Ansari) 9:45 – 10:30 IV Overview of SCIM documents (Trey Drake) 10:30 – 11:00 V Discussion (Chairs introduce the questions below) 11:00 – 11:05 VI Questions from the Chair (chairs) A. Do we agree there is a problem? B. Is SCIM the right starting point? C. Is this something the IETF should do? D. Do we have volunteers to (1) edit/author the drafts? (2) review the drafts? 11:05 – 11:25 VII Introduction of the charter and discussion (chairs) 11:25 – 11:30 Should we have a WG? (A hum) (Chairs/AD) --------------040203080807000503020809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone (yet again),

Below is a draft agenda, based on the earlier message I had sent, and with review from my co-chair, Steve Bellovin.  Please review and comment.  Agendas are subject to change  right up 'til the beginning of the session.  Of course I would prefer to avoid that.  Better to bash here on the list then spend valuable time in the meeting.  Presenters are encouraged to incorporate as many views as possible to provide a complete picture, for purposes of decision making. At the same time, we don't have all day, and so conciseness is important.

We have received  a request for an additional slot for presentation which is not yet reflected on this draft agenda.  In considering requests for presentation time slots, please keep in mind the following:   Will the presentation advance the discussion about whether to create a WG or what its charter should be?

Comments, Please!

Eliot
ps: all times are approximate

 9:00 –  9:02   I   Agenda Bashing
 9:02 –  9:15   II  Introduction by the chairs, and a description 
                    of the BoF process, including potential outcomes
 9:15 –  9:45   III Description of the pre-provisioning problem, why this
                    is important, and relation to existing work (Morteza Ansari)
 9:45 – 10:30	IV  Overview of SCIM documents (Trey Drake)
10:30 – 11:00	V   Discussion (Chairs introduce the questions below)
11:00 – 11:05	VI  Questions from the Chair (chairs)
		  A.  Do we agree there is a problem?
		  B.  Is SCIM the right starting point?
		  C.  Is this something the IETF should do?
		  D.  Do we have volunteers to
			(1) edit/author the drafts?
			(2) review the drafts?
11:05 – 11:25	VII Introduction of the charter and discussion (chairs)
11:25 – 11:30	Should we have a WG? (A hum) (Chairs/AD)

--------------040203080807000503020809-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Tue Mar 13 15:39:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A289121E8028 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EO7z2bKlnQG5 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B424121E8043 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2DMdRXR029241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:39:28 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2DMdQAL020950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:39:27 GMT Received: from abhmt109.oracle.com (abhmt109.oracle.com [141.146.116.61]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2DMdP08002788; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:39:26 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:39:25 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <4F5FC804.4080208@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:39:23 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FC804.4080208@cisco.com> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F5FCCA0.008A,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:39:36 -0000 I believe the JOSE WG recently did it this way. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-13, at 3:19 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Phil, >=20 > I failed to address a point you made below: >=20 > On 3/13/12 8:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0 = specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the = re-published drafts under IETF. >>=20 >=20 > I believe it is important to both cite and acknowledge the earlier = work, but I don't know that the charter is the right place to do it. = This having been said, the charter is one place where we have prominent = static content. Pete, what would the IESG want, here? >=20 > Eliot > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From moransar@cisco.com Tue Mar 13 21:32:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DAF021E8074 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:32:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.223, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCh7rA3nSh0F for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D919421E8073 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:31:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=1953; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331699503; x=1332909103; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=AI2pBt8J71KZVewJxkkE42RBLtCqKqAIt7fp2Xa2jq4=; b=PnPFKi4Dhq9eH3GWq5UOyYSdmvUnvByVGD1JhHtm9EjL9mMyJ4D9kpnR hG4GotqbIyKTa7/TMlYcxw1OyJFlMliXE971K768h4Cbik8RwvcV7k9HT pPtCTt7uikODljg2iPrpAZzCbHehIhdZKLqTkNKXzlXAdY8Z1/p5OTWfP k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EACQeYE+tJXG9/2dsb2JhbABDtX2BB4IJAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0FwQCAQgRBAEBAQoGFwEGASYfCAEIAgQBEggah2gLnRIBnnUEijOFYmMEiFedJYMEgT4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,582,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="66271925" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2012 04:31:42 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com [72.163.63.8]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2E4VgNm024297; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 04:31:42 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:31:42 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:31:40 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEDEAC4F@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20120313210143.9F1B421F85E3@ietfa.amsl.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAVw7YpfMEUbcYUy6hHiFfEtBAZZoteNggAB9CtA= References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com><20120313202551.79BDF21F860F@ietfa.amsl.com><71B91DB0-7F03-473B-B7F4-3D7E3F020B55@oracle.com><4F5FB543.7090804@stpeter.im> <20120313210143.9F1B421F85E3@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Diodati,Mark" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2012 04:31:42.0665 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B488390:01CD019B] Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 04:32:41 -0000 I personally don't think I know enough about the multi-target (and use cases behind it) to decide one way or another. This is why I suggested Phil to be on the agenda at the BoF and provide use cases and background info so the WG can decide whether this addition to the charter make sense or not. Cheers, Morteza -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diodati,Mark Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:02 PM To: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter The BoF has been accepted by IETF. The question is, have the BoF members accepted the request to add multi-target support? -----Original Message----- From: Peter Saint-Andre [mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:00 PM To: Phil Hunt Cc: Diodati,Mark; scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter On 3/13/12 2:58 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > My understanding is that it has been accepted for the BoF. Can=20 > someone clarify? The BoF has been accepted. We're using this list to work out the specific topics to be discussed, among other things, and the charter is a big part of that. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From tonynad@microsoft.com Wed Mar 14 06:08:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FB921F86E8 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.967 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.967 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qsG2yWqOfzKJ for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (va3ehsobe006.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9151621F86C9 for ; 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Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:08:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS024.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.237]) by mail31-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C6715C0048; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:08:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0310HT005.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.21) by TX2EHSMHS024.bigfish.com (10.9.99.124) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:08:34 +0000 Received: from BL2PRD0310MB362.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.10.177]) by BL2PRD0310HT005.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.97.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0123.000; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:08:31 +0000 From: Anthony Nadalin To: Eliot Lear , Phil Hunt Thread-Topic: [scim] Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAVDYCcrvYOVt8kG1ir+JEsll/pZopA2AgAAYPICAAQc/UA== Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:08:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [129.6.252.104] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:08:47 -0000 --_000_B26C1EF377CB694EAB6BDDC8E624B6E73C08110EBL2PRD0310MB362_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 4oCcbWFuYWdpbmcgdXNlciBpZGVudGl0eSBsaWZlY3ljbGXigJ0NCg0KVGhpcyBpcyBhIGxpdHRs ZSB0b28gdmFndWUgYXMgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkgZGlmZmVyZW50IHZpZXdzIG9uIHdoYXQgdGhl IGlkZW50aXR5IGxpZmVjeWNsZSBjb25zaXN0cyBvZiwgZW5yb2xsbWVudCwgcHJvb2ZpbmcsIGNy ZWRlbnRpYWxpbmcsIHVzYWdlLCBtb25pdG9yaW5nLCBldGMuIGFuZCBJIGRvbuKAmXQgYmVsaWV2 ZSB0aGF0IFNDSU0gY292ZXJzIGFsbCB0aGVzZSBhcmVhcyBub3cgb3IgZXZlciB3aWxsDQoNCkZy b206IHNjaW0tYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOnNjaW0tYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g T24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEVsaW90IExlYXINClNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDEzLCAyMDEyIDI6 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14 Mar 2012 08:12:32 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Anthony Nadalin , Eliot Lear , Phil Hunt Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:12:31 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAVDYCcrvYOVt8kG1ir+JEsll/pZopA2AgAAYPICAAQc/UIAAATJw Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7FUSNAVSXCHMBSA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:13:39 -0000 --_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7FUSNAVSXCHMBSA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 4oCmIGFuZCB3aGF0IGFib3V0IG90aGVycyDigJMgYXJlIHRob3NlIGluY2x1ZGVkIG9yIGV4Y2x1 ZGVkIGZyb20g4oCcaWRlbnRpdHkgbGlmZWN5Y2xl4oCdOg0KDQotICAgICAgICAgIFByb2ZpbGVz L3ByZWZlcmVuY2VzDQoNCi0gICAgICAgICAgUHJpdmFjeSBzZXR0aW5ncw0KDQotICAgICAgICAg IEFjY2VzcyBjb250cm9sIHRvIGFsbCBpZGVudGl0eS1yZWxhdGVkIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uDQpUaGFu a3MsDQpNaWNoYWVsDQoNCkZyb206IHNjaW0tYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOnNjaW0t Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEFudGhvbnkgTmFkYWxpbg0KU2VudDogV2Vk bmVzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAxNCwgMjAxMiA5OjA5IEFNDQpUbzogRWxpb3QgTGVhcjsgUGhpbCBIdW50 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IG9yIGl0cyBhdHRhY2htZW50cy4gUGxlYXNlIG5vdGlmeSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyIGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5 IGJ5IHJldHVybiBlLW1haWwgYW5kIHBlcm1hbmVudGx5IGRlbGV0ZSB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5k IGFueSBhdHRhY2htZW50cy4gR2FydG5lciBtYWtlcyBubyB3YXJyYW50eSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgZS1t YWlsIGlzIGVycm9yDQogb3IgdmlydXMgZnJlZS48L3NwYW4+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOndp bmRvd3RleHQiPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1s Pg0K --_000_B26C1EF377CB694EAB6BDDC8E624B6E73C0811E9BL2PRD0310MB362_-- From lear@cisco.com Wed Mar 14 07:01:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0294421F84EF for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:01:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G72H2tyqOQ84 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0E321F87E0 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:01:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=5185; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331733700; x=1332943300; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=7gTPnTi1TFcm9xGCY94kacOTgJnaORfwDvPUezL9/PA=; b=GEgdM3FRYAUpwzL33hcMG3iHYASjO2QezaJb/OY8tgrMREz3rnpjBErQ AOD/G5XzMj+N9+1s9bbjjgmyxRIT0Q0AwxQ5wsizX5rC3h9NorR+WIJnM 9Ta0VcyokMa+ecKCax5EAXkeRu5QKvjouA9980GwMZnEzIChHEe8kdg7Z s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAEyjYE+Q/khM/2dsb2JhbAA6CYJFgnWwcYEHggkBAQEEEgEQCksBEAsOCgkWCwICCQMCAQIBPAkGDQEHAQEVCYdonR6NBJIoijEDhTSBFgSVVo5AgWiCZ4FT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,584,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="68467863" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2012 14:01:39 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-96-124.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-96-124.cisco.com [10.61.96.124]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2EE1dks019747; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:01:39 GMT Message-ID: <4F60A4C3.8060703@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:39 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Nadalin References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060006030102010702020803" Cc: "Diodati, Mark" , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:01:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060006030102010702020803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote: > > That’s my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, > suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management > functions that SCIM will cover > > > I think this is a really good point. The more we scope the better off we'll be. Eliot --------------060006030102010702020803 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote:

That’s my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management functions that SCIM will cover

 


I think this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off we'll be.

Eliot
--------------060006030102010702020803-- From lear@cisco.com Wed Mar 14 07:02:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0955C21F87E1 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:02:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TVfyX2TBHs0W for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F2A21F8790 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:02:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=5185; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331733760; x=1332943360; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=sbcWIAHyZx1cbzc02SqhBDtA8NdlOnwCi18IT77IHMI=; b=dKjk5RdfqF5ms2bD6ofVQpEVxa01m6Dpe9LnkVI+60wjvTI2fKvIsG05 Q2NoKqho+4oIhZRCjxJeAhKc0IKpAsNQVctTRXwh4F+vmf14DWo0vL/Qi FpX20tWimPx8TNnX6GQUtsZQ1Qk6B2sXPdA8XJayTCsWfOuH9iDfxhO5a E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAPmjYE+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbAA6CYJFgnWwcYEHggkBAQEEEgEQCksBEAsOCgkWCwICCQMCAQIBPAkGDQEHAQEVCYdonRWNBJIoijEDhTSBFgSVVo5AgWiCZ4FT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,583,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="132291993" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2012 14:02:39 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-96-124.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-96-124.cisco.com [10.61.96.124]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2EE1IP5010963; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:01:18 GMT Message-ID: <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:00:55 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Nadalin References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020707030508080809040305" Cc: "Diodati, Mark" , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:02:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020707030508080809040305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote: > > That’s my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, > suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management > functions that SCIM will cover > > > I think this is a really good point. The more we scope the better off we'll be. Eliot --------------020707030508080809040305 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote:

That’s my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management functions that SCIM will cover

 


I think this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off we'll be.

Eliot
--------------020707030508080809040305-- From kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com Wed Mar 14 08:01:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807C821F87E5 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.501, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Ix1bAAlCLbI for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (ch1ehsobe006.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.181.186]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF5821F87E3 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail85-ch1-R.bigfish.com (10.43.68.234) by CH1EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (10.43.70.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:41 +0000 Received: from mail85-ch1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail85-ch1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217B0806C9; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:41 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -25 X-BigFish: PS-25(zzbb2dI9371Ic89bhc857h98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0410HT001.namprd04.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail85-ch1: domain of sailpoint.com designates 157.56.240.85 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.240.85; envelope-from=kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com; helo=BL2PRD0410HT001.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; Received: from mail85-ch1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail85-ch1 (MessageSwitch) id 1331737297435144_26910; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1EHSMHS021.bigfish.com (snatpool1.int.messaging.microsoft.com [10.43.68.245]) by mail85-ch1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDB83C01B9; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0410HT001.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.85) by CH1EHSMHS021.bigfish.com (10.43.70.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:35 +0000 Received: from BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.188]) by BL2PRD0410HT001.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.99.36]) with mapi id 14.16.0123.000; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:33 +0000 From: Kelly Grizzle To: Eliot Lear , Anthony Nadalin Thread-Topic: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAecnZok9SioEQ0KucJ82P1umB5Zpy20AgAAGhICAAAxpEA== Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:32 +0000 Message-ID: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.226.147.242] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33BL2PRD0410MB351_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sailpoint.com Cc: "Diodati, Mark" , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:01:41 -0000 --_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33BL2PRD0410MB351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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score=-2.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.309, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8QovZCtKJpCa for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from extmail1.prd.yaanatech.com (extmail1.prd.yaanatech.com [205.140.198.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7C721F8811 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (pool-173-72-136-146.clppva.fios.verizon.net [173.72.136.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by extmail1.prd.yaanatech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D995258076; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:12:04 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F60B543.2010408@yaanatech.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:12:03 -0400 From: Tony Rutkowski Organization: Yaana Technologies User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120308 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010305070002060600050207" Cc: tonynad@microsoft.com, scim@ietf.org, lear@cisco.com, Mark.Diodati@gartner.com Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: tony@yaanatech.com List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:12:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010305070002060600050207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Might this include the use of CybOX to structure and exchange identity related object observables? --tony On 3/14/2012 11:01 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote: > > I agree. The term "identity life-cycle" is nice as a high-level > markety mission statement, but should probably be made more specific > for an IETF working group description. Up to this point, SCIM has > been geared towards CRUD operations for identities and > identity-related objects, and I don't see it venturing much outside of > this realm. Perhaps something along the lines of: > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity- > related objects easier in cloud based applications. > --------------010305070002060600050207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Might this include the use of CybOX to structure
and exchange identity related object observables?

--tony

On 3/14/2012 11:01 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote:

I agree.  The term “identity life-cycle” is nice as a high-level markety mission statement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF working group description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD operations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don’t see it venturing much outside of this realm.  Perhaps something along the lines of:

 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to 
make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity-
related objects easier in cloud based applications.


--------------010305070002060600050207-- From kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com Wed Mar 14 10:04:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF0A21F8733 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:04:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JlbVV0EfL7CK for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (ch1ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.181.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974F521F85D3 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail220-ch1-R.bigfish.com (10.43.68.240) by CH1EHSOBE009.bigfish.com (10.43.70.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:53 +0000 Received: from mail220-ch1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail220-ch1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F99C4C0193; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:53 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -25 X-BigFish: PS-25(zzbb2dI9371Ic85fh98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail220-ch1: domain of sailpoint.com designates 157.56.240.85 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.240.85; envelope-from=kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com; helo=BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; Received: from mail220-ch1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail220-ch1 (MessageSwitch) id 1331744678865020_32098; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1EHSMHS029.bigfish.com (snatpool2.int.messaging.microsoft.com [10.43.68.234]) by mail220-ch1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8183A0067; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.85) by CH1EHSMHS029.bigfish.com (10.43.70.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:29 +0000 Received: from BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.188]) by BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.99.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0123.000; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:27 +0000 From: Kelly Grizzle To: "tony@yaanatech.com" Thread-Topic: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAecnZok9SioEQ0KucJ82P1umB5Zpy20AgAAGhICAAAxpEIAAB3aAgAAdVcA= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:26 +0000 Message-ID: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637D54@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <4F60B543.2010408@yaanatech.com> In-Reply-To: <4F60B543.2010408@yaanatech.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.226.147.242] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637D54BL2PRD0410MB351_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sailpoint.com Cc: "tonynad@microsoft.com" , "scim@ietf.org" , "lear@cisco.com" , "Mark.Diodati@gartner.com" Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:04:54 -0000 --_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637D54BL2PRD0410MB351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CybOX is new to me, so I can't say for sure. There has been discussion abo= ut utilizing other languages for the payload of some attributes on users (e= g - XACML in the entitlements attribute). This is not part of the spec, th= ough, and is left as a decision to the client and server implementers. May= be CybOX could similarly fit into a user or object extension? I wouldn't f= oresee this becoming part of the core spec, though. --Kelly From: Tony Rutkowski [mailto:tony@yaanatech.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:12 AM To: Kelly Grizzle Cc: lear@cisco.com; tonynad@microsoft.com; Mark.Diodati@gartner.com; scim@i= etf.org Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter Might this include the use of CybOX to structure and exchange identity related object observables? --tony On 3/14/2012 11:01 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote: I agree. The term "identity life-cycle" is nice as a high-level markety mi= ssion statement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF work= ing group description. Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD= operations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don't see it= venturing much outside of this realm. Perhaps something along the lines o= f: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity= - related objects easier in cloud based applications. --_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637D54BL2PRD0410MB351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

CybOX is new to me, so I = can’t say for sure.  There has been discussion about utilizing o= ther languages for the payload of some attributes on users (eg – XACM= L in the entitlements attribute).  This is not part of the spec, though= , and is left as a decision to the client and server implementers.  Ma= ybe CybOX could similarly fit into a user or object extension?  I woul= dn’t foresee this becoming part of the core spec, though.

 <= /p>

--Kelly=

 <= /p>

From: Tony Rutkowski [mailto:tony@yaanatech.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:12 AM
To: Kelly Grizzle
Cc: lear@cisco.com; tonynad@microsoft.com; Mark.Diodati@gartner.com;= scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter=

 

Might this incl= ude the use of CybOX to structure
and exchange identity related object observables?

--tony

On 3/14/2012 11:01 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote:

I agree.  The term &= #8220;identity life-cycle” is nice as a high-level markety mission st= atement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF working grou= p description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD ope= rations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don’t see = it venturing much outside of this realm.  Perhaps something along the = lines of:

 <= /p> 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed =
to 
make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and ide=
ntity-
related objects easier in cloud based applications.

 

 

--_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637D54BL2PRD0410MB351_-- From prateek.mishra@oracle.com Wed Mar 14 10:42:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CD721F86A7 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:42:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nLSO0Bl06loq for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64C621F8778 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2EHgF9g002549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:42:15 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2EHgE2t008578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:42:14 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2EHgDiE026081 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:42:14 -0500 Received: from [192.168.2.3] (/66.31.108.94) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:42:13 -0700 Message-ID: <4F60D874.3030804@oracle.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:42:12 -0400 From: prateek mishra Organization: Oracle Corporation User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000105090706020100060207" X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F60D878.003E,ss=1,re=-2.300,fgs=0 Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:42:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000105090706020100060207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So any form of query or search is excluded from the scope of this work? > > I agree. The term "identity life-cycle" is nice as a high-level > markety mission statement, but should probably be made more specific > for an IETF working group description. Up to this point, SCIM has > been geared towards CRUD operations for identities and > identity-related objects, and I don't see it venturing much outside of > this realm. Perhaps something along the lines of: > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity- > related objects easier in cloud based applications. > > Easier is also a bit vague. This could be changed to address how > things will become easier. For example: > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to > make managing user identity lifecycle easier in cloud based applications > by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, reading, updating, > and deleting user identities and identity-related objects. > > --Kelly > > *From:*scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Eliot Lear > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:01 AM > *To:* Anthony Nadalin > *Cc:* Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter > > > > On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote: > > That's my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, > suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management > functions that SCIM will cover > > > I think this is a really good point. The more we scope the better off > we'll be. > > Eliot > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------000105090706020100060207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So any form of query or search is excluded from the scope of this work?

I agree.  The term “identity life-cycle” is nice as a high-level markety mission statement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF working group description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD operations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don’t see it venturing much outside of this realm.  Perhaps something along the lines of:

 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to 
make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity-
related objects easier in cloud based applications.

 

Easier is also a bit vague.  This could be changed to address how things will become easier.  For example:

 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to 
make managing user identity lifecycle easier in cloud based applications
by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, reading, updating,
and deleting user identities and identity-related objects.

 

--Kelly

 

 

From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eliot Lear
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:01 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin
Cc: Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter

 



On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote:

That’s my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management functions that SCIM will cover

 


I think this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off we'll be.

Eliot



_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
--------------000105090706020100060207-- From kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com Wed Mar 14 10:44:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 855E621F8760 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CkOXteF8-RAy for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe004.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.207]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A3C21F8740 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail57-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.229) by AM1EHSOBE006.bigfish.com (10.3.204.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:34 +0000 Received: from mail57-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail57-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C750E2605B2; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:34 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -25 X-BigFish: PS-25(zzbb2dI9371Ic85fh98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0410HT004.namprd04.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail57-am1: domain of sailpoint.com designates 157.56.240.85 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.240.85; envelope-from=kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com; helo=BL2PRD0410HT004.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; Received: from mail57-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail57-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1331747071758762_29226; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS006.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.249]) by mail57-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B687F2E0043; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0410HT004.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.85) by AM1EHSMHS006.bigfish.com (10.3.207.106) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:28 +0000 Received: from BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.188]) by BL2PRD0410HT004.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.99.39]) with mapi id 14.16.0123.000; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:24 +0000 From: Kelly Grizzle To: prateek mishra , "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter Thread-Index: AQHNAecnZok9SioEQ0KucJ82P1umB5Zpy20AgAAGhICAAAxpEIAAMWoAgAAAV3A= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:23 +0000 Message-ID: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <4F60D874.3030804@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <4F60D874.3030804@oracle.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.226.147.242] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1CBL2PRD0410MB351_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sailpoint.com Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:39 -0000 --_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1CBL2PRD0410MB351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No - listing with optional filtering and sorting is supported. In my mind = this fits under the "read" of CRUD, but it may make sense to be more explic= it about it. --Kelly From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of pra= teek mishra Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:42 PM To: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter So any form of query or search is excluded from the scope of this work? I agree. The term "identity life-cycle" is nice as a high-level markety mi= ssion statement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF work= ing group description. Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD= operations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don't see it= venturing much outside of this realm. Perhaps something along the lines o= f: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity= - related objects easier in cloud based applications. Easier is also a bit vague. This could be changed to address how things wi= ll become easier. For example: The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity lifecycle easier in cloud based applications by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity-related objects. --Kelly From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eliot Lear Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:01 AM To: Anthony Nadalin Cc: Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote: That's my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest th= at this be limited to the actual identity management functions that SCIM wi= ll cover I think this is a really good point. The more we scope the better off we'l= l be. Eliot _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1CBL2PRD0410MB351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No – listing with o= ptional filtering and sorting is supported.  In my mind this fits unde= r the “read” of CRUD, but it may make sense to be more explicit= about it.

 <= /p>

--Kelly=

 <= /p>

From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of prateek mishra
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:42 PM
To: scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter=

 

So any form of query or search is excluded from the = scope of this work?

I agree.  The term &= #8220;identity life-cycle” is nice as a high-level markety mission st= atement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF working grou= p description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD ope= rations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don’t see = it venturing much outside of this realm.  Perhaps something along the = lines of:

 <= /p> 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed =
to 
make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and ide=
ntity-
related objects easier in cloud based applications.

 <= /p>

Easier is also a bit vagu= e.  This could be changed to address how things will become easier.&nb= sp; For example:

 <= /p> 

The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed =
to 
make managing user identity lifecycle easier in cloud based applicatio=
ns
by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, reading, upda=
ting,
and deleting user identities and identity-related objects.<=
/pre>

 <=
/p>

--Kelly=



 <=
/p>

 <=
/p>





From:
scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Eliot Lear

Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:01 AM

To: Anthony Nadalin

Cc: Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter=







 






On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote: 


That’s my point, th=
e term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest that this be limited =
to the actual identity management functions that SCIM will cover


 <=
/p>



I think this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off=
 we'll be.



Eliot











_______________________________________________


scim mailing list


scim@ietf.org


https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
--_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1CBL2PRD0410MB351_-- From trey.drake@unboundid.com Wed Mar 14 11:14:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAA021F86A8 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id epMh1-xTH3ik for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E2021F861E for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ggmi1 with SMTP id i1so2419842ggm.31 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=iOtX5Gy1hPNKpwekZ+R9m9wwwmJ8KFhVT7f0++SI2lw=; b=EuC9I0ZDQGG3dar6OQGyrZbBnEzL6Hk2HyeoFKkdblaRVURIrqrm3slSrn1q/pR7xm Oqa9LhPOjYv/dxZUjTZIYeDQXdtl0IMTXT0dpowddnJTfCWk8hDLEgIZtoNnOh9Dfhaa iGEckuCYfcSo2C38pvdUE6sikqqoyskuG57dS02/aKviyZVNcTUVU7LOZDo9HsAk8+X5 EY9zOlSTww+2ek//u581tCUWoebFZ16i9kVU+amVKpbDaNZhGOl0A8F2w0ZNVXeB6eWX xDNMIXD4jxUKD03KvfnX0U/SzPW/A0+G04arax8BUHz6ArqKJYxr4Zz83d+RBS61tZww siIw== Received: by 10.182.12.37 with SMTP id v5mr4792561obb.16.1331748846775; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office-dhcp-232.unboundid.lab (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 1sm6259803obo.2.2012.03.14.11.14.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8D771AB1-4390-4009-8A6F-CBCE652DE28D"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:14:04 -0500 Message-Id: References: <4F5FA213.4000600@cisco.com> <4F5FBAB1.1020009@cisco.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D4F7F@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <20120314133359.AD1C421F85A0@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F60A497.8050906@cisco.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637C33@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <4F60D874.3030804@oracle.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E1C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> To: Kelly Grizzle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnw30odpn74X+4FbyJ6PO52348BfsqCgafNzifqx7h0NKTYHlFWb92DVxH/qfkVKwcIBpum Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , prateek mishra Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:14:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8D771AB1-4390-4009-8A6F-CBCE652DE28D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_62A9F6CF-E561-4AFF-9D8C-340E77B5C514" --Apple-Mail=_62A9F6CF-E561-4AFF-9D8C-340E77B5C514 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 How about "retrieval" as opposed to "reading"? Thanks, Trey=20 On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Kelly Grizzle wrote: > No =96 listing with optional filtering and sorting is supported. In = my mind this fits under the =93read=94 of CRUD, but it may make sense to = be more explicit about it. > =20 > --Kelly > =20 > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of prateek mishra > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:42 PM > To: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter > =20 > So any form of query or search is excluded from the scope of this = work? >=20 > I agree. The term =93identity life-cycle=94 is nice as a high-level = markety mission statement, but should probably be made more specific for = an IETF working group description. Up to this point, SCIM has been = geared towards CRUD operations for identities and identity-related = objects, and I don=92t see it venturing much outside of this realm. = Perhaps something along the lines of: > =20 > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and = identity- > related objects easier in cloud based applications. > =20 > Easier is also a bit vague. This could be changed to address how = things will become easier. For example: > =20 > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed = to=20 > make managing user identity lifecycle easier in cloud based = applications > by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, reading, = updating, > and deleting user identities and identity-related objects. > =20 > --Kelly > =20 > =20 > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Eliot Lear > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:01 AM > To: Anthony Nadalin > Cc: Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter > =20 >=20 >=20 > On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote: > That=92s my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, = suggest that this be limited to the actual identity management functions = that SCIM will cover > =20 >=20 > I think this is a really good point. The more we scope the better off = we'll be. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_62A9F6CF-E561-4AFF-9D8C-340E77B5C514 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 How about "retrieval" as opposed to = "reading"?

Thanks,
Trey 

<= div>
On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Kelly Grizzle = wrote:

No =96 = listing with optional filtering and sorting is supported.  In my = mind this fits under the =93read=94 of CRUD, but it may make sense to be = more explicit about it.
 
 
From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of prateek = mishra
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 = 12:42 PM
To: scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose = reshape of charter
 
So any form of query or search is = excluded from the scope of this work?

I = agree.  The term =93identity life-cycle=94 is nice as a high-level = markety mission statement, but should probably be made more specific for = an IETF working group description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been = geared towards CRUD operations for identities and identity-related = objects, and I don=92t see it venturing much outside of this = realm.  Perhaps something along the lines = of:
 
The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) =
specification is designed to 
make =
creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and =
identity-
related objects easier in =
cloud based applications.
 
Easier is = also a bit vague.  This could be changed to address how things will = become easier.  For example:
The Simple Cloud = Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to = 
make managing user identity lifecycle =
easier in cloud based applications
by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, =
reading, updating,
and deleting user =
identities and identity-related objects.
--Kelly
 
From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 = 9:01 AM
To: Anthony = Nadalin
Cc: Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose = reshape of charter
 


On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony = Nadalin wrote:
That=92s my point, the term identity life-cycle is = too subjective, suggest that this be limited to the actual identity = management functions that SCIM will cover

I think = this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off = we'll be.

Eliot
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
scim@ietf.org
, prateek mishra 
Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter
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I like that.

From: Trey Drake [mailto:trey.drake@unboundid.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:14 PM
To: Kelly Grizzle
Cc: prateek mishra; scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter

How about "retrieval" as opposed to "reading"?

Thanks,
Trey


On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Kelly Grizzle wrote:


No - listing with optional filtering and sorting is supported.  In my mind =
this fits under the "read" of CRUD, but it may make sense to be more explic=
it about it.

--Kelly

From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of prateek mishra
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:42 PM
To: scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter

So any form of query or search is excluded from the scope of this work?


I agree.  The term "identity life-cycle" is nice as a high-level markety mi=
ssion statement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF work=
ing group description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD=
 operations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don't see it=
 venturing much outside of this realm.  Perhaps something along the lines o=
f:


The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to

make creating, reading, updating, and deleting user identities and identity=
-

related objects easier in cloud based applications.

Easier is also a bit vague.  This could be changed to address how things wi=
ll become easier.  For example:


The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to

make managing user identity lifecycle easier in cloud based applications

by defining standard protocols and schemas for creating, reading, updating,

and deleting user identities and identity-related objects.

--Kelly


From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eliot Lear
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:01 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin
Cc: Diodati, Mark; scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] FW: Propose reshape of charter



On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote:
That's my point, the term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest th=
at this be limited to the actual identity management functions that SCIM wi=
ll cover


I think this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off we'l=
l be.

Eliot





_______________________________________________

scim mailing list

scim@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


--_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E60BL2PRD0410MB351_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











I like that.


 <=
/p>





From: Trey Dra=
ke [mailto:trey.drake@unboundid.com]


Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:14 PM

To: Kelly Grizzle

Cc: prateek mishra; scim@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter






 


How about "retrieval" as opposed to "=
reading"?




 






Thanks,






Trey 




 






 






On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Kelly Grizzle wrote:















No – listing with o=
ptional filtering and sorting is supported.  In my mind this fits unde=
r the “read” of CRUD, but it may make sense to be more explicit=
 about
 it.






 






--Kelly






 










From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailt=
o:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On
 Behalf Of prateek mi=
shra

Sent: Wednesday, M=
arch 14, 2012 12:42 PM

To: scim@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [scim=
] FW: Propose reshape of charter










 =







So any form of query or =
search is excluded from the scope of this work?












I agree.  The term &=
#8220;identity life-cycle” is nice as a high-level markety mission st=
atement, but should probably be made more specific for an IETF working grou=
p
 description.  Up to this point, SCIM has been geared towards CRUD ope=
rations for identities and identity-related objects, and I don’t see =
it venturing much outside of this realm.  Perhaps something along the =
lines of:






 




The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM=
) specification is designed to 


make creating, reading, updating, and dele=
ting user identities and identity-


related objects easier in cloud based appl=
ications.




 






Easier is also a bit vagu=
e.  This could be changed to address how things will become easier.&nb=
sp; For example:






 




The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM=
) specification is designed to 


make managing user identity lifecycle easi=
er in cloud based applications


by defining standard protocols and schemas=
 for creating, reading, updating,


and deleting user identities and identity-=
related objects.




 






--Kelly






 






 










From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailt=
o:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On
 Behalf Of Eliot Lear=


Sent: Wednesday, M=
arch 14, 2012 9:01 AM

To: Anthony Nadali=
n

Cc: Diodati, Mark;=
 scim@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [scim=
] FW: Propose reshape of charter










 =











On 3/14/12 2:37 PM, Anthony Nadalin wrote:






That’s my point, th=
e term identity life-cycle is too subjective, suggest that this be limited =
to the actual identity management functions that SCIM will cover






 








I think this is a really good point.  The more we scope the better off=
 we'll be.



Eliot



















__________________________________________=
_____


scim mailing list


scim@ietf=
.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


_____________________________________=
__________

scim mailing list

scim@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/scim






 










--_000_56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C637E60BL2PRD0410MB351_--

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Mar 14 12:37:44 2012
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Subject: Re: [scim] Propose reshape of charter
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On 3/13/12 4:19 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi Phil,
> 
> I failed to address a point you made below:
> 
> On 3/13/12 8:56 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>>
>> It is probably important to site the location of the SCIM 1.0
>> specification which is published externally to IETF as well as the
>> re-published drafts under IETF.
>>
> 
> I believe it is important to both cite and acknowledge the earlier work,
> but I don't know that the charter is the right place to do it.  This
> having been said, the charter is one place where we have prominent
> static content.  Pete, what would the IESG want, here?

Assuming you meant Peter, I'll answer. :)

Consider, say, the original OAuth WG charter:

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/oauth/charters?item=charter-oauth-2009-05-13.txt

It didn't mention oauth.net. However, I see no great harm in mentioning
simplecloud.info in the charter, along these lines:

   These drafts are based on existing specifications originally
   developed outside the IETF (see http://simplecloud.info/ for further
   information).

Thanks!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



From tony@yaanatech.com  Wed Mar 14 12:48:23 2012
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Cc: tonynad@microsoft.com, scim@ietf.org, lear@cisco.com, Mark.Diodati@gartner.com
Subject: Re: [scim] FW:  Propose reshape of charter
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The CybOZ URL is
http://cybox.mitre.org/about/index.html

Just as CybOX is envisioned as a core
component of SCAP and incident response
data models, it can be used for identity
observables to the extent that there is
a need to exchange this information.

The charter at present seems sufficiently
broad to allow for such sub-components,
if nothing else as extensions.

--tony



On 3/14/2012 1:04 PM, Kelly Grizzle wrote:
>
> CybOX is new to me, so I can't say for sure.  There has been 
> discussion about utilizing other languages for the payload of some 
> attributes on users (eg -- XACML in the entitlements attribute).  This 
> is not part of the spec, though, and is left as a decision to the 
> client and server implementers.  Maybe CybOX could similarly fit into 
> a user or object extension?  I wouldn't foresee this becoming part of 
> the core spec, though.
>


--------------030807000903030709070408
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  
    
  
  
    The CybOZ URL is 

      http://cybox.mitre.org/about/index.html

      

      Just as CybOX is envisioned as a core

      component of SCAP and incident response

      data models, it can be used for identity

      observables to the extent that there is

      a need to exchange this information.

      

      The charter at present seems sufficiently

      broad to allow for such sub-components,

      if nothing else as extensions.

      

      --tony

      

      

    
    

    On 3/14/2012 1:04 PM, Kelly Grizzle wrote:
    

      
CybOX

          is new to me, so I can’t say for sure.  There has been
          discussion about utilizing other languages for the payload of
          some attributes on users (eg – XACML in the entitlements
          attribute).  This is not part of the spec, though, and is left
          as a decision to the client and server implementers.  Maybe
          CybOX could similarly fit into a user or object extension?  I
          wouldn’t foresee this becoming part of the core spec, though.

      

    

    

  


--------------030807000903030709070408--

From phil.hunt@oracle.com  Wed Mar 14 14:44:42 2012
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In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting =
issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of =
thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at:
=
http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.=
html

I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific issue =
of "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting).

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com






From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Mar 14 15:28:53 2012
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On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting
> issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of
> thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: 
> http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.html

Hi Phil,

I really do hate to be a stickler, but I don't think that the IETF can
consider your blog post to be an "IETF Contribution" in accordance with
the Note Well rules  -- I
realize that you put time and energy into those nice graphics, but could
we trouble you to at least post the text of your comments to this
mailing list? It really is for your own good. :)

Thanks!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:05:23 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: [scim] Internet-Drafts
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Folks, it would really help avoid awkward and inevitable questions about
change control and IPR confusion if the proponents could post
Internet-Drafts before the BoF, at least for the scenarios doc, core
schema, and protocol spec. Although the deadline for -00 I-Ds passed 10
days ago, the submission window opens again on March 26 (three days
before the BoF):

http://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/

Given that the SCIM specs at simplecloud.info are already in RFC format,
it seems that submitting Internet-Drafts would not involve significant
author frustration. They don't need to be polished, changed, or
otherwise edited -- just submit them as-is so we can get them
circulating among IETFers and show a good-faith effort to be upstanding
citizens of the IETF community.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



From trey.drake@unboundid.com  Wed Mar 14 16:13:35 2012
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From: Trey Drake 
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:13:28 -0500
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts
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Peter,

It was on my todo list though I was under the impression changes to the exis=
ting specs were required. Given that's not the case I'll submit the core sch=
ema and protocol specs today "as is".

Thanks,
Trey




On Mar 14, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:

> Folks, it would really help avoid awkward and inevitable questions about
> change control and IPR confusion if the proponents could post
> Internet-Drafts before the BoF, at least for the scenarios doc, core
> schema, and protocol spec. Although the deadline for -00 I-Ds passed 10
> days ago, the submission window opens again on March 26 (three days
> before the BoF):
>=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/
>=20
> Given that the SCIM specs at simplecloud.info are already in RFC format,
> it seems that submitting Internet-Drafts would not involve significant
> author frustration. They don't need to be polished, changed, or
> otherwise edited -- just submit them as-is so we can get them
> circulating among IETFers and show a good-faith effort to be upstanding
> citizens of the IETF community.
>=20
> Thanks in advance for your assistance.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> scim mailing list
> scim@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Mar 14 16:14:49 2012
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On 3/14/12 5:13 PM, Trey Drake wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> It was on my todo list though I was under the impression changes to the existing specs were required. Given that's not the case I'll submit the core schema and protocol specs today "as is".

Hi Trey,

That's great. You won't be able to submit them until March 26th, so you
have time to fix up a few things if you please, but don't feel that it's
necessary. :)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



From charliemortimore@gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 16:35:22 2012
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From: Charliemortimore 
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:35:15 -0700
To: Phil Hunt 
Cc: "scim@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter
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Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup.  =20

I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality.  Not yet convinced the cl=
ient needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power over the routing decis=
ions, at least in v1.   Look forward to discussion and evolving my thinking o=
n this. =20

- cmort

On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt  wrote:

> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting issu=
e. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of thoughts toget=
her on areas the WG might consider on my blog at:
> http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.=
html
>=20
> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific issue of "=
gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting).
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> scim mailing list
> scim@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

From phil.hunt@oracle.com  Wed Mar 14 16:45:39 2012
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Cross posting as requested...

SCIM - What Should A New SCIM WG Address?
In my last blog post, I mentioned that SCIM 1.0 defines as a simple =
provisioning API for cloud application service providers. SCIM is =
architecturally oriented as a connector API specification in a hub and =
spoke architecture typically with an enterprise provisioning system at =
the hub and a cloud application service provider being a spoke. Other =
variations could include provisioning for on-premsise SaaS applications =
as well as directory synchronization. For each cloud application, the =
enterprise IDM hub should be able to just invoke the SCIM RESTful API of =
a target application's SCIM provisioning end-point.


But is SCIM about to repeat much of the history of SPML? Has it =
corrected some miss-steps? Yes, definitely. Is that enough? Let's look =
at some of the historical issues that will be of relevance to the =
evolution of SCIM. Just to be clear, my comments are not to suggest that =
SCIM adopt SPML features. My comments are intended so that SCIM learn =
from SPML's history.

The Value Problem

SPML 1 was very much like SCIM 1.0 is now. A simple API that supported =
basic CRUD operations. When SPML 1 was developed, the proposed value =
proposition was that provisioning would be made easier if applications =
would adopt a standard IDM protocol, then provisioning of enterprise =
applications would become easier. The value to application developers =
was that simpler, standardized management API would not be specific to =
individual IDM vendors and could inter-operate with any IDM provisioning =
product.

=46rom the enterprise perspective SPML 1 made a lot of sense since it =
would make all applications provision the same way. They could pick and =
choose the IDM product they wanted to use. More importantly, enterprises =
would not have to pay for custom coding when attempting to provision to =
proprietary APIs of applications.

SPML 1 was somewhat successful, but before it could be broadly adopted, =
several new requirements emerged and SPML 2 was defined (though SPML 1 =
remains dominant).  SPML 2 introduced many new features such as
	=95 the clean separation of payload from protocol;=20
	=95 the introduction of new common IDM operations (e.g. password =
operations);
	=95 a formalized DSML/XSD profile;
	=95 targeting - the ability to provision accounts through a =
gateway; and,
	=95 an extension mechanism for registering capabilities so that =
contributed capabilities could be made inter-operable.
Yet application vendors wanted more: they wanted standard schema =
conventions, they wanted a standard that enabled them not to have to =
introduce individual IDM vendor dependencies. If they could write one =
SPML provider once and be done with it, their costs would go down.

Many idM vendors were concerned that SPMLv2 had gone too far. In the =
end, it was either perceived complexity or the basic value proposition =
was not enough for SPML to succeed.

Has SCIM moved the ball forwards? On one important point, the answer is =
yes. SCIM has put forward a well defined schema with clear definition of =
attributes and their use or meaning. The RESTful style of SCIM keeps =
schema cleanly separated.

The Information Semantics Fidelity Trade-off

IDM Provisioning product developers have always faced an engineering =
trade-off. Would a standardized provisioning protocol/API lower =
development costs? Each application is unique, therefore each unique =
application APIs often has highly specific semantics and contextual =
meanings. While saving money initially by using a standardized SCIM or =
SPML API, does this mean a loss of "fidelity" or functionality? Do =
different systems treat the notion of person or user in the same way? =
What does delete person mean? In translating information semantics, is =
mapping intelligence in the hub or in the spoke or somewhere in-between? =
The engineering question is: should the provisioning system understand =
the true nature of the application, or should the application understand =
provisioning systems and behave like an identity store? In my =
experience, there's no clear answer. It depends on the nature of the =
application.

Does SCIM help in this regard? That is yet to be determined. The SCIM =
community will need to discuss issues like how to handle high level IDM =
operations like suspend vs. delete, password resets, federation and =
other deeply IDM specific issues and how they are operationally mated =
with a diverse application services API community.

The Gateway Problem


Corporations that are organized into divisions often end up with =
different independent IT organizations and outsourced providers -- =
especially after corporate re-organizations, acquisitions, and =
divestitures. In these cases, single-hub provisioning systems often =
become unpractical. While some may view this as rare situation, the =
whole idea of a cloud based apps hosted externally makes this situation =
de rigueur.

In these cases a key provisioning architecture element is the ability to =
support provisioning gateways and hub-to-hub provisioning. Gateways (or =
proxies) serve a dual purpose of both firewalling direct access to =
internal services and they serve to greatly simplify network complexity =
for inter-organization communication. As well as solving basic =
firewalling issues, gateways can also support mapping functions changing =
from a standardized provisioning protocol like SCIM into application =
specific connector protocols like CRM OnDemand who may or may not have =
built support for a protocol such as SCIM.

Since a gateway acts as a "proxy" to other connected SaaS services, SCIM =
needs the ability route or "target" operations to specific application =
end-points. SPML 2.0 and now RESTpml/SIMPLEST supports targeting. =
Targeting enables a provisioning "hub" to indicate to a provisioning =
"gateway" that particular person requires an account in a particular =
target system. In the diagram above, Alice, employee 1234 is to be =
provisioned into the "Finance" application.

SCIM with routing/targeting becomes a critical communication protocol =
for hub-to-hub and hub-to-gateway provisioning. Unlike SPML =
implementation of the past, inter-operability becomes a key requirement =
because in the world of cloud provisioning it is more likely that =
gateway and hub implementations will come from different provisioning =
product developers.

The Cloud Does Change Everything

SPML was built for a world where everything occurred inside an =
enterprise. But the requirements for cloud identity management are =
substantially different. Cloud based provisioning architecture must take =
into account:
	=95 Performance and Scalability =96 A lightweight HTTP protocol =
such as with REST/JSON is a cornerstone requirement when provision cloud =
environments with 100s of millions of users.
	=95 Firewall requirements =96 securely connecting directly to =
application APIs (standardized or not) will likely require some special =
sauce. It's not reasonable to expect all application end-points to be =
able to support this in the cloud.
	=95 Cloud Providers are often "hubs" themselves =96 since cloud =
providers offer more than one application service, cloud providers may =
behave more like "hubs" than spokes.
	=95 Cloud Providers With Value-Added Data =96 some cloud =
providers may have provisioning and identity management systems of their =
own. This suggests that cloud hubs may need to flow back to the =
enterprise.
	=95 Entitlement Reporting =96 A big requirement for provisioning =
these days with SOX is the need for entitlement reporting. Further, when =
you are paying an external cloud provider for services rendered, you =
want to make sure you are paying for the correct employees to use cloud =
services. A key component of provisioning systems need to report back =
available rights of all users from all applications, especially through =
cloud "hubs".
	=95 Inter-operability =96 no longer can we assume hubs and =
gateways are provided by a single vendor. Cloud-based provisioning will =
almost always be multi-vendor based.
What Should The New SCIM WG Address?

The main success of SCIM has been a standardized schema. It defines the =
attributes and says what each means -- something that application =
vendors always wanted. This is goodness. Yet, there are some gaps when =
you start to consider the overall provisioning system that will emerge =
from SCIM's adoption.

A couple of scope items that the future IETF SCIM WG should be =
considering:

	=95 Routing or targeting =96 SCIM needs to have a way to handle =
updates through gateways and hub-to-hub relationships for supporting =
multi-service cloud providers.
	=95 Persons as distinct from Users =96 Currently SCIM combines =
these entities together in a simple form. The reality is that in the =
hub, persons hold multiple user accounts. Is a change needed to SCIM =
schema to support managing the relationships between persons and their =
user accounts? This may not need change, but wider discussion is needed.
	=95 Peer relationships =96 Cloud providers with hubs may need to =
be able to flow updates back to client hubs.
	=95 Reporting =96 attestation is a key component of =
provisioning. Not only will clients want to be able to reconcile what =
cloud providers are charging for, but clients also still have =
requirements driven by Sarbanes-Oxley. SPML's approach was burdensome. =
Could SCIM support the ability for a client "hub" to get the information =
it needs to accomplish this in a lightweight way in the spirit of SCIM?

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-14, at 3:28 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> 
>=20
> On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting
>> issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of
>> thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at:=20
>> =
http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.=
html
>=20
> Hi Phil,
>=20
> I really do hate to be a stickler, but I don't think that the IETF can
> consider your blog post to be an "IETF Contribution" in accordance =
with
> the Note Well rules  -- I
> realize that you put time and energy into those nice graphics, but =
could
> we trouble you to at least post the text of your comments to this
> mailing list? It really is for your own good. :)
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> scim mailing list
> scim@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


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=
But is SCIM about to repeat much of the history of SPML? Has it =
corrected some miss-steps? Yes, definitely. Is that enough? Let's =
look at some of the historical issues that will be of relevance to =
the evolution of SCIM. Just to be clear, my comments =
are not to suggest that SCIM adopt SPML features. My =
comments are intended so that SCIM learn from SPML's history.

The =
Value Problem

SPML 1 was very much like SCIM 1.0 is now. A simple =
API that supported basic CRUD operations. When SPML 1 was =
developed, the proposed value proposition was that provisioning =
would be made easier if applications would adopt a standard IDM =
protocol, then provisioning of enterprise applications would become =
easier. The value to application developers was that simpler, =
standardized management API would not be specific to individual IDM =
vendors and could inter-operate with any IDM provisioning =
product.

=46rom the enterprise perspective SPML 1 made a lot of =
sense since it would make all applications provision the same way. =
They could pick and choose the IDM product they wanted to use. More =
importantly, enterprises would not have to pay for custom coding =
when attempting to provision to proprietary APIs of =
applications.

SPML 1 was somewhat successful, but before it could =
be broadly adopted, several new requirements emerged and SPML 2 was =
defined (though SPML 1 remains dominant).  SPML 2 introduced =
many new features such as
	=95 the clean separation of =
payload from protocol; 
	=95 the introduction of new =
common IDM operations (e.g. password operations);
	=95 a =
formalized DSML/XSD profile;
	=95 targeting - the ability to =
provision accounts through a gateway; and,
	=95 an =
extension mechanism for registering capabilities so that =
contributed capabilities could be made inter-operable.
Yet =
application vendors wanted more: they wanted standard schema =
conventions, they wanted a standard that enabled them not to have =
to introduce individual IDM vendor dependencies. If they could =
write one SPML provider once and be done with it, their costs would =
go down.

Many idM vendors were concerned that SPMLv2 had gone too =
far. In the end, it was either perceived complexity or the basic =
value proposition was not enough for SPML to succeed.

Has SCIM =
moved the ball forwards? On one important point, the answer is yes. SCIM =
has put forward a well defined schema with clear definition of =
attributes and their use or meaning. The RESTful style of SCIM =
keeps schema cleanly separated.

The Information Semantics =
Fidelity Trade-off

IDM Provisioning product developers have =
always faced an engineering trade-off. Would a standardized =
provisioning protocol/API lower development costs? Each application is =
unique, therefore each unique application APIs often has highly =
specific semantics and contextual meanings. While saving money =
initially by using a standardized SCIM or SPML API, does this mean =
a loss of "fidelity" or functionality? Do different systems treat the =
notion of person or user in the same way? What does delete person =
mean? In translating information semantics, is mapping intelligence =
in the hub or in the spoke or somewhere in-between? The engineering =
question is: should the provisioning system understand the true nature =
of the application, or should the application understand =
provisioning systems and behave like an identity store? In my =
experience, there's no clear answer. It depends on the nature of =
the application.

Does SCIM help in this regard? That is yet =
to be determined. The SCIM community will need to discuss issues =
like how to handle high level IDM operations like suspend vs. =
delete, password resets, federation and other deeply IDM specific =
issues and how they are operationally mated with a diverse =
application services API community.

The Gateway =
Problem

Corporations that are organized into divisions often end up with = different independent IT organizations and outsourced = providers -- especially after corporate re-organizations, = acquisitions, and divestitures. In these cases, single-hub = provisioning systems often become unpractical. While some may view = this as rare situation, the whole idea of a cloud based apps = hosted externally makes this situation de rigueur.

In these = cases a key provisioning architecture element is the ability = to support provisioning gateways and hub-to-hub provisioning. = Gateways (or proxies) serve a dual purpose of both firewalling = direct access to internal services and they serve to greatly = simplify network complexity for inter-organization communication. = As well as solving basic firewalling issues, gateways can = also support mapping functions changing from a standardized = provisioning protocol like SCIM into application specific connector = protocols like CRM OnDemand who may or may not have built support = for a protocol such as SCIM.

Since a gateway acts as a "proxy" to = other connected SaaS services, SCIM needs the ability route or = "target" operations to specific application end-points. SPML 2.0 and = now RESTpml/SIMPLEST supports targeting. Targeting enables a = provisioning "hub" to indicate to a provisioning "gateway" that = particular person requires an account in a particular = target system. In the diagram above, Alice, employee 1234 is to be = provisioned into the "Finance" application.

SCIM with = routing/targeting becomes a critical communication protocol for = hub-to-hub and hub-to-gateway provisioning. Unlike SPML = implementation of the past, inter-operability becomes a key = requirement because in the world of cloud provisioning it is more likely = that gateway and hub implementations will come from different = provisioning product developers.

The Cloud Does Change = Everything

SPML was built for a world where everything occurred = inside an enterprise. But the requirements for cloud identity = management are substantially different. Cloud based provisioning = architecture must take into account:
=95 = Performance and Scalability =96 A lightweight HTTP protocol such as = with REST/JSON is a cornerstone requirement when provision cloud = environments with 100s of millions of users.
=95 = Firewall requirements =96 securely connecting directly to application = APIs (standardized or not) will likely require some special sauce. = It's not reasonable to expect all application end-points = to be able to support this in the cloud.
=95 Cloud = Providers are often "hubs" themselves =96 since cloud providers offer = more than one application service, cloud providers may behave more = like "hubs" than spokes.
=95 Cloud Providers With = Value-Added Data =96 some cloud providers may have provisioning and = identity management systems of their own. This suggests that cloud = hubs may need to flow back to the enterprise.
=95 = Entitlement Reporting =96 A big requirement for provisioning these days = with SOX is the need for entitlement reporting. Further, when you = are paying an external cloud provider for services rendered, you = want to make sure you are paying for the correct employees to use = cloud services. A key component of provisioning systems need to = report back available rights of all users from all = applications, especially through cloud "hubs".
=95 = Inter-operability =96 no longer can we assume hubs and gateways are = provided by a single vendor. Cloud-based provisioning will almost = always be multi-vendor based.
What Should The New SCIM WG = Address?

The main success of SCIM has been a standardized schema. = It defines the attributes and says what each means -- something = that application vendors always wanted. This is goodness. Yet, = there are some gaps when you start to consider the overall provisioning = system that will emerge from SCIM's adoption.

A couple of = scope items that the future IETF SCIM WG should be = considering:

=95 Routing or targeting =96 SCIM = needs to have a way to handle updates through gateways and = hub-to-hub relationships for supporting multi-service = cloud providers.
=95 Persons as distinct from = Users =96 Currently SCIM combines these entities together in a = simple form. The reality is that in the hub, persons hold multiple user = accounts. Is a change needed to SCIM schema to support managing the = relationships between persons and their user accounts? This may not = need change, but wider discussion is needed.
=95 Peer = relationships =96 Cloud providers with hubs may need to be able to = flow updates back to client hubs.
=95 = Reporting =96 attestation is a key component of provisioning. Not only = will clients want to be able to reconcile what cloud providers are = charging for, but clients also still have requirements driven by = Sarbanes-Oxley. SPML's approach was burdensome. Could SCIM support = the ability for a client "hub" to get the information it needs to = accomplish this in a lightweight way in the spirit of = SCIM?

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hu= nt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-14, at = 3:28 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

<hat= type=3D'AD'/>

On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, Phil Hunt = wrote:
In previous emails, I promised more = thoughts on the Gateway/targeting
issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a = bunch of
thoughts together on = areas the WG might consider on my blog at:
http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-sc= im-wg-address.html

Hi Phil,

I really do = hate to be a stickler, but I don't think that the IETF can
consider = your blog post to be an "IETF Contribution" in accordance with
the = Note Well rules <http://www.ietf.org/abou= t/note-well.html> -- I
realize that you put time and energy = into those nice graphics, but could
we trouble you to at least post = the text of your comments to this
mailing list? It really is for your = own good. :)

Thanks!

Peter

--
Peter = Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


__________= _____________________________________
scim mailing = list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1671D21F87C7 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.313 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.313 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.286, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id or64lowP00T9 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD11221F8589 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2ENnGna004653 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:49:17 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2ENnGEX009694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:49:16 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2ENnFFs006007; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:49:15 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.85.226.208) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:49:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:49:19 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> To: Charliemortimore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F612E7D.0022,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:49:22 -0000 Chuck, Agreed. Routing shouldn't be specific. The concern is that the client = should not have direct knowledge of internal endpoints. In this case, I = think the routing requirement is "logical". Create a Mail account, = create a CRM account, and so on. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-14, at 4:35 PM, Charliemortimore wrote: > Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup. =20 >=20 > I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality. Not yet convinced = the client needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power over the = routing decisions, at least in v1. Look forward to discussion and = evolving my thinking on this. =20 >=20 > - cmort >=20 > On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >=20 >> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting = issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of = thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: >> = http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.= html >>=20 >> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific = issue of "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting). >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From moransar@cisco.com Wed Mar 14 16:59:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328F511E8086 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oHGYmuuP8TX2 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F4E011E8075 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:59:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=966; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331769587; x=1332979187; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=Dgm2Cxn3CxZvEVEOTA+PqPvLF4yiMXj7jb+vNgF48ZE=; b=Y2jGEhAcKCUBDknTfJecV4daEQQhHlevR00FeFW3kc9E/5CxnSjYAKgd gEl/EkNIgLKoWy3mjMCMyXqpYsM1/rsp0a9es/EMrgUsvQ0f/1wZtlFhw 4ztGhTI1CvKwKAhoc3YavcyMrlKSOLa+/Ufr6O2AyZbJ0K+xyfapO0lvZ s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EALowYU+tJXG9/2dsb2JhbABDti6BB4IJAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0CwwEAgEIEQQBAQEKBhcBBgEmHwkIAQEEARIIGodoC5sMnyQEkBxjBIhXmz+BaIME X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,587,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="66505420" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2012 23:59:47 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com [72.163.62.139]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2ENxlHf022728; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:59:47 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:59:47 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:59:45 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62E89@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F612668.4000403@stpeter.im> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Internet-Drafts Thread-Index: Ac0COEM33ZbhtO0BSzKHFckulOPPKwAAJ9OA References: <4F612433.5060503@stpeter.im><612C3B6B-4098-4951-ACD6-BEA30B492F52@unboundid.com> <4F612668.4000403@stpeter.im> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Peter Saint-Andre" , "Trey Drake" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2012 23:59:47.0362 (UTC) FILETIME=[89049820:01CD023E] Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:59:48 -0000 It might be useful to send a copy to the mailing list even if we can't officially submit it. Cheers, Morteza -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:15 PM To: Trey Drake Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts On 3/14/12 5:13 PM, Trey Drake wrote: > Peter, >=20 > It was on my todo list though I was under the impression changes to the existing specs were required. Given that's not the case I'll submit the core schema and protocol specs today "as is". Hi Trey, That's great. You won't be able to submit them until March 26th, so you have time to fix up a few things if you please, but don't feel that it's necessary. :) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From phil.hunt@oracle.com Wed Mar 14 17:02:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7B811E8086 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fDVQEJmam-SQ for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA88E11E8075 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2F026KO016538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 00:02:07 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2F025CS029614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 00:02:06 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2F025EF001299; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:02:05 -0500 Received: from [25.70.227.15] (/74.198.150.143) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:02:04 -0700 References: <4F612433.5060503@stpeter.im> <612C3B6B-4098-4951-ACD6-BEA30B492F52@unboundid.com> <4F612668.4000403@stpeter.im> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62E89@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62E89@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <2C17AE04-0F43-4A23-A8A2-3EE4D297FA2A@oracle.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Phil Hunt Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:02:01 -0700 To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A020205.4F613180.002D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Trey Drake , Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 00:02:09 -0000 It needs to be officially submitted. Yesterday if possible. =20 Phil On 2012-03-14, at 16:59, "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" wr= ote: > It might be useful to send a copy to the mailing list even if we can't > officially submit it. >=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Morteza >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:15 PM > To: Trey Drake > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts >=20 > On 3/14/12 5:13 PM, Trey Drake wrote: >> Peter, >>=20 >> It was on my todo list though I was under the impression changes to > the existing specs were required. Given that's not the case I'll submit > the core schema and protocol specs today "as is". >=20 > Hi Trey, >=20 > That's great. You won't be able to submit them until March 26th, so you > have time to fix up a few things if you please, but don't feel that it's > necessary. :) >=20 > Peter >=20 > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Mar 14 17:06:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9BB11E8086 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.641 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.641 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITalTGvRjb8F for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD99711E8075 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0A6640058; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:19:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F61328C.9090202@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:06:36 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <4F612433.5060503@stpeter.im> <612C3B6B-4098-4951-ACD6-BEA30B492F52@unboundid.com> <4F612668.4000403@stpeter.im> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62E89@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <2C17AE04-0F43-4A23-A8A2-3EE4D297FA2A@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <2C17AE04-0F43-4A23-A8A2-3EE4D297FA2A@oracle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Trey Drake , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 00:06:38 -0000 On 3/14/12 6:02 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > It needs to be officially submitted. Yesterday if possible. As noted, the submission window won't open again until March 26. Naturally, someone could post an entire Internet-Draft as a big message to an IETF mailing list, although that is slightly unorthodox. :) If the authors would like to do that as a stopgap measure, I can approve the messages (if they are larger than the message limit). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From moransar@cisco.com Wed Mar 14 20:24:11 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C0321F8600 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:24:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AAv2J05HXjrS for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1CB21F85FC for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:24:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=9177; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331781849; x=1332991449; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=FwkDUobEqgFp2uFZlN0beW2qNEbVPd+7GOGHGAtKwgE=; b=T1iutEOcrYI7ABxrTAyrtvqe/Y4s/HCwntk8ZoT5oo3U1bZQAArVohA+ 8UOfFFUpzHOlwWGCvkkgKTJzz+HqmMVgtz4ufoCySy47fnnc3EetBnfy7 4wvD4s8i6Zj6DQnugCUNHEIHM0mWwUTtxQhbZ4RXGNPeAO2iuFStFfHZO o=; X-Files: charter4.txt : 4380 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFANpfYU+tJXG9/2dsb2JhbAA5AQmCRbNzgQeCCwEEAQEBDwEJEQM8Ah0BDB4CBAUTBwElMQEEEQIIARmHaAuZeYEnnzCKMAEIgxiCS2MEiFeGDYEglBaBaIMEIIEe X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,588,1325462400"; d="txt'?scan'208,217";a="66569401" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2012 03:24:09 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com [72.163.62.138]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2F3O82Y007133 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:24:08 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:24:09 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD025B.158B1DB2" Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:24:07 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0CWhQJYmaeSW1JQjC4xnekwjr/YA== From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2012 03:24:09.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[15A1D7E0:01CD025B] Subject: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:24:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD025B.158B1DB2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01CD025B.158B1DB2" ------_=_NextPart_002_01CD025B.158B1DB2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza ------_=_NextPart_002_01CD025B.158B1DB2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Trey, = Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some text to = the version Eliot sent out yesterday.  We tried to address the = questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on = the email discussions.  Please review and send your = comments/feedback.

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

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ICAgV0dMQyBTQ0lNIGNvcmUgc2NoZW1hCjkvMjAxMiAgICBXR0xDIFNDSU0gcmVzdGZ1bCBpbnRl cmZhY2UKOS8yMDEyICAgIFdHTEMgU0NJTSBTQU1MIGJpbmRpbmdzCjkvMjAxMiAgICBXR0xDIFND SU0gTERBUCBtYXBwaW5nCjMvMjAxMyAgICBSZS1jaGFydGVyIGRpc2N1c3Npb24K ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD025B.158B1DB2-- From lear@cisco.com Wed Mar 14 23:52:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38E511E80A2 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:52:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkdYXx24E8MH for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB0011E8093 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:52:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=227; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331794359; x=1333003959; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K7iK+22jteYkshQ6VzBWf2zBRUNkQLrcvXc80sJTqtY=; b=NcAK+mCWtP6Ymg888iwVFXwbymRW1QpDU0wrDlp90wTrEeZIco3bvps1 TKUUBOR6P4+4tqOAApwoS/nRvy2TCbeoj1Et41ylVHA8kD9wkdQSccIUt WoHaDhmP0XBjOApHJTscqYJ1yvLMXRPvaXeeH7OTBSwGQI8nbvdUM7geu E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlITAHaRYU+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABDhUWvawQDgQuBB4IKAQEEEgEQVQEQCxoCBRYLAgIJAwIBAgFFBg0BBwEBHodonHCNBIpKgS+OOoEWBJVYjkKBaIJn X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,588,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="132367517" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2012 06:52:15 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com [10.55.82.125]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2F6qEF9028158; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:52:14 GMT Message-ID: <4F6191A2.6040902@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:52:18 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:52:40 -0000 Phil, The chairs would like to add you to the agenda for a brief presentation on this, based on BoF interest. Again, please focus your presentation on how you would scope the WG's work. Plan for 10-15 minutes. Eliot From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Thu Mar 15 05:14:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BBB121F86AD for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 05:14:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKWrkcsazgIM for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 05:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.scss.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48F321F86A8 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 05:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4F715829C; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:14:22 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1331813660; bh=tIXTtB99DDLpp3 //klqHGUpz/p9AdHVWT+8b4NgdCuE=; b=1fhwaJ0ZYt76C4Ds+e4gVfNF1a1Md5 2ldVXkbWx8XJEJHMA/Fq1v1A0OYzpstoGxwBqSUrN9Y/XGj15g9tOLzHPfhxES9Q G5NS30K9SWW3BJ95dwkgUzpFF0eeN8xwxla5d0LZERTFX7GmHufUtQm4dH5mRxbX MqiNVDMgfA4VgskQCT7rQILBaFcLkyB7H1SGekimuzQ/TbLIosryP5AwdoodsW/1 gjtUFqFbsL2cHX4Xc4n9xURwLFMy5md5/i1EhRRTMKvod8b/kD8/pJpfUsvhPsde bH5ZeZKuT5KNmiSIgck5SrCZI3hnCUX5DTQ/YzztpWCg4/i8Ccx1odCQ== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id CkOV1DtElHPF; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:14:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.7] (unknown [86.41.14.101]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC1CB1582BD; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:04:32 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:09:03 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:14:24 -0000 On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some > text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the > questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on > the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. Your proposal says: "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: Defining new authentication schemes Defining new policy/authorization schemes Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization" The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't get the 3rd. scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, e.g.: Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some authorization is clearly needed. I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok to reset Charlie's password. What's the reason to try leave authorization for such scim messages out of scope? S From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 06:05:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2134221F86EC for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwGAVx2yHv3u for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [135.245.0.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864A821F86AB for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.10]) by ihemail2.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FD5Ca2020593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FCtLjG008342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:05:12 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:05:04 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Stephen Farrell , "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:05:03 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0CpSuaw4OdwzB0RvWuvgqhnFPlWQABeLww Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.35 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.10 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:05:17 -0000 The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not pro= vide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorization= . I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather that= it is the scope of other groups. Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "... = while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This w= ill raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunctio= n with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. Michael=20 -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ste= phen Farrell Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some > text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the > questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on > the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. Your proposal says: "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: Defining new authentication schemes Defining new policy/authorization schemes Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization" The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't get the 3rd. scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, e.g.: Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some authorization is clearly needed. I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok to reset Charlie's password. What's the reason to try leave authorization for such scim messages out of scope? S _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Thu Mar 15 06:10:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51F621F8539 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rh5Sy3fYHr53 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.scss.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA3921F8531 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352CD171C8B; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:10:53 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1331817052; bh=t5n7bN79yliQwx Gy34+1/8AN1d7fdcLan4iX5Wtdj1w=; b=Wke+BccJh0jy4WUlg7laCEAapooqf3 qnVgW4Da5WpzDye1aLNRGu5uGQJnj+3/b9cpLOLMqGMMaSOlddNSF70t7MfuMm6Q 4BkZrkZH6J8rHRfzT0eI5QQXH+wDqvw1ImnCT1FmvS4x/TZduCFQYj/9ZduWsIrz Rqk1+YTv3ghbuNDTHEAyEm+IMmAQ0VcuSApTNHIph0hPK0dpSmbS7Jgdv/ngaeuT xeTVR8kkc7n/0e35Z4WMyym3Fz8XCOiLmmauS0ZsW1R/YSarYBISfhLquYWySMOZ 2nVme3Jj0+fn+ZnsvObl3KpI3iRSIRzFF+phCJBAyzE3KvplcxPZqtrw== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id h1zFVJantJvA; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.7] (unknown [86.41.14.101]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 76926171C3E; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:10:51 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:10:51 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:10:54 -0000 I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST implement" set of features for stuff like this. If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how to use the underlying scheme.) Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable manner. S On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather that it is the scope of other groups. > > Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM > To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > > On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. > > Your proposal says: > > > "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: > Defining new authentication schemes > Defining new policy/authorization schemes > Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement > authorization" > > The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't > get the 3rd. > > scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, > e.g.: > > Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password > > I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's > authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some > authorization is clearly needed. > > I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob > don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok > to reset Charlie's password. > > What's the reason to try leave authorization for such > scim messages out of scope? > > S > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 06:21:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B0E21F85EC for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T36xwqJOLFw7 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [135.245.0.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F097521F85DB for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail2.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FDLXWX027304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:21:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.111]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FDLMJm023240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:21:33 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.111]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:21:24 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Stephen Farrell Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:21:23 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0CrRHnw28PuzTsRWGFxabCbsw73QAAHRCA Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.35 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:21:39 -0000 Stephen, When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wordin= g in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementations= define and implement authorization". In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggested = (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as mentio= ned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization st= ates make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendation= for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intended= to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization sche= mes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authenti= cation/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST implement" set of features for stuff like this. If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how to use the underlying scheme.) Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable manner. S On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not p= rovide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorizati= on. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather th= at it is the scope of other groups. > > Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "..= . while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This= will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunct= ion with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S= tephen Farrell > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM > To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > > On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. > > Your proposal says: > > > "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: > Defining new authentication schemes > Defining new policy/authorization schemes > Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement > authorization" > > The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't > get the 3rd. > > scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, > e.g.: > > Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password > > I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's > authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some > authorization is clearly needed. > > I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob > don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok > to reset Charlie's password. > > What's the reason to try leave authorization for such > scim messages out of scope? > > S > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Thu Mar 15 06:30:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303AC21F8617 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:30:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TaZoQmdesyRn for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.scss.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FD821F8512 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B49171C8B; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:30:47 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1331818246; bh=5UToydiAPJjVNW mb8Rzc/uYTCO7joW2xMss7Kgk64i0=; b=ONIohMYHZ0r9P0aCg4MSIQxo5Liwpk xhJ8BK1womnBg5ADPxXsaG1keMZ4ITQWOKzRfDDkKUaKz1NpRCIacfHfdf2KUvD0 KOpE2Ceq35w78tyXwwSBYSUQGU5uG7L9gomCPtA65FaJUh+ypmtXjQnuVZMufKkm iIAP/qunHmt96EWNQheCUuI3A5RlJs1mHHIm47zv7YkNKVqdUC2jftD2jIzSP+YM jRRMh942u63AdMl76VXF6RfB7VnSYrvumGz7BDBef7P2wMV9mpMl7pOwpjuJBGyc ZX8ky2j0zyS7N11pEqYoyqABOmz/xkZAmtRVmRfcKchPGwYXCQwG1ScA== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 6UarS1DpgHPg; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:30:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.7] (unknown [86.41.14.101]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 201E5171C3E; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:30:45 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:30:45 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:30:49 -0000 So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different folks get involved in a BoF coming from different backgrounds. Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do authorization which would IMO be broken. S On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > Stephen, > > When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wording in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization". > > In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggested (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as mentioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendation for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intended to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization schemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authentication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. > > RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. > > But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) > use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST > implement" set of features for stuff like this. > > If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. > (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how > to use the underlying scheme.) > > Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here > and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization > decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable > manner. > > S > > On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather that it is the scope of other groups. >> >> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >> Cc: scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> >> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >> >> Your proposal says: >> >> >> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >> Defining new authentication schemes >> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >> authorization" >> >> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >> get the 3rd. >> >> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >> e.g.: >> >> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >> >> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >> authorization is clearly needed. >> >> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >> to reset Charlie's password. >> >> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >> scim messages out of scope? >> >> S >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 06:37:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4710D21F858F for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:37:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIK5vg9XhzOv for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DFD21F86B4 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FDbpck009617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:37:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FDaxkP000435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:37:50 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:37:47 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Stephen Farrell Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:37:46 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0Cr9X5MW6QjatsRh6ITCUMBuMLPAAADVnQ Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:37:57 -0000 I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the charte= r of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "OA= uth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I do= agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not ex= cluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2 B= earer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope of= SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. Michael=20 -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different folks get involved in a BoF coming from different backgrounds. Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do authorization which would IMO be broken. S On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > Stephen, > > When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the word= ing in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementatio= ns define and implement authorization". > > In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggeste= d (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as ment= ioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization = states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendati= on for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intend= ed to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization sc= hemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authen= tication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. > > RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. > > But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) > use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST > implement" set of features for stuff like this. > > If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. > (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how > to use the underlying scheme.) > > Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here > and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization > decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable > manner. > > S > > On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not = provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorizat= ion. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather t= hat it is the scope of other groups. >> >> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: ".= .. while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". Thi= s will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunc= tion with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Stephen Farrell >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >> Cc: scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> >> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >> >> Your proposal says: >> >> >> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >> Defining new authentication schemes >> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >> authorization" >> >> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >> get the 3rd. >> >> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >> e.g.: >> >> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >> >> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >> authorization is clearly needed. >> >> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >> to reset Charlie's password. >> >> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >> scim messages out of scope? >> >> S >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Thu Mar 15 06:47:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908EF21F8692 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:47:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bMYgvwR+Z5fB for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.scss.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD7821F8667 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD23E171C8B; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:47:41 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1331819261; bh=T5gyiz59lkECei W2yoe9i47xBpKSYe3nDn3mTl2kbRI=; b=PpU4noJ3xdLAxpzGxT4ACZYx3L0PtE r6uvdktPl1rNLfKkHWuH/9JA5Xp7LTZJRqsD7KHDBYqZe+KBLQzrPMmXeITy4oaf LwYjHuFXH0RSz0qThZhV1ae3ihoclG0iOuWvK19efH8kYSm8bA8vyQS4YVKD2rod RRiYSt3b03+z4ZwzPMr/p0TcSTHWn9oFpkFMkFOJg6ZIZvL1A2l92d3qdSsydULv TePM3oTjPDsQTqUoo3TGMBndigHEV3/8dTyIOz5fD47qstWh2Iqvr9z99tlwp2Sj AzL3akZlUsvDllMHrAbA6X05yT5S1tIvOtPytsBjfuEuyUCab4j/VtSw== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 4HW07pTtKlT5; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:47:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.7] (unknown [86.41.14.101]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E0F9171C3E; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:47:40 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F61F2FC.80802@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:47:40 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:47:43 -0000 Note: I'm talking about mandatory-to-implement not mandatory- to-use. Those differ. The former allows for interop. regardless of where you get your code (if done well of course:-) In any case, I do believe this putative WG does need to specify how authorization is to be handled, which conflicts with the original mail to which I responded. S On 03/15/2012 01:37 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the charter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2 Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But > that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different > folks get involved in a BoF coming from different > backgrounds. > > Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite > sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably > fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. > > Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break > interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do > authorization which would IMO be broken. > > S > > On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Stephen, >> >> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wording in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization". >> >> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggested (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as mentioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendation for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intended to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization schemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authentication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >> >> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >> >> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) >> use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST >> implement" set of features for stuff like this. >> >> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how >> to use the underlying scheme.) >> >> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here >> and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization >> decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable >> manner. >> >> S >> >> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather that it is the scope of other groups. >>> >>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>> >>> >>> >>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >>> >>> Your proposal says: >>> >>> >>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>> Defining new authentication schemes >>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>> authorization" >>> >>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >>> get the 3rd. >>> >>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>> e.g.: >>> >>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>> >>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >>> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >>> authorization is clearly needed. >>> >>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >>> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >>> to reset Charlie's password. >>> >>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >>> scim messages out of scope? >>> >>> S >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 07:03:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6893821F8645 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:03:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.800, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HOVd+JYxhDl4 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8329921F863B for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.10]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FE35cs024383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:03:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FDiweP032648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:03:05 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:02:26 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Stephen Farrell Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:02:25 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0CsjPoHvAxNLT6RtCq3o7IcWyRBgAAQpzg Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5556@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61F2FC.80802@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4F61F2FC.80802@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.10 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:03:09 -0000 I don't think SCIM has to mandatorily implement (implement as in "defining = as part of the SCIM specs") anything in order to work with Oath 2 Bearer To= ken. Otherwise we end up defining vendor's implementation of SCIM & OAuth. = A vendor that would implement BOTH the SCIM and OAuth 2.0 specifications wo= uld have to support in SCIM requests the passing of a (separately and previ= ously) obtained OAuth 2.0 token, via an HTTP header. IMHO, this is orthogon= al to the definitions in SCIM specs themselves. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:48 AM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Note: I'm talking about mandatory-to-implement not mandatory- to-use. Those differ. The former allows for interop. regardless of where you get your code (if done well of course:-) In any case, I do believe this putative WG does need to specify how authorization is to be handled, which conflicts with the original mail to which I responded. S On 03/15/2012 01:37 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the char= ter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "= OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I = do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not = excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2= Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope = of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But > that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different > folks get involved in a BoF coming from different > backgrounds. > > Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite > sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably > fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. > > Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break > interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do > authorization which would IMO be broken. > > S > > On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Stephen, >> >> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wor= ding in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementati= ons define and implement authorization". >> >> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggest= ed (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as men= tioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization= states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendat= ion for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are inten= ded to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization s= chemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authe= ntication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >> >> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >> >> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) >> use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST >> implement" set of features for stuff like this. >> >> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how >> to use the underlying scheme.) >> >> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here >> and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization >> decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable >> manner. >> >> S >> >> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not= provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authoriza= tion. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather = that it is the scope of other groups. >>> >>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "= ... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". Th= is will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjun= ction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>> >>> >>> >>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >>> >>> Your proposal says: >>> >>> >>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>> Defining new authentication schemes >>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>> authorization" >>> >>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >>> get the 3rd. >>> >>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>> e.g.: >>> >>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>> >>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >>> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >>> authorization is clearly needed. >>> >>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >>> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >>> to reset Charlie's password. >>> >>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >>> scim messages out of scope? >>> >>> S >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 15 07:12:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F1221F865F for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:12:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NVC+q+F15lTT for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE2021F864A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ggmi1 with SMTP id i1so3525470ggm.31 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:12:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=Hraf9XT86smredEIQTy0CoCTyYrJrywAciBNBYiTLlg=; b=PD0VmG7yFFTqnpLZV0YkJ6+ZEgHrGbJh2qJEJBLUlAWfXQCElRcKLmAPk4m691uTtL 4vrlrMN6YAXE4hD1MscJk+h2SwPc42KlQfjIUgraKlMfsu9dnQWJewcjbpLvgQvmZete 8vecR1cqB8pJW/0LB3ql831bHlurrcOe7l2ouIkvu9oQUbCHyeZwFGcyjXKKyPqMwCwg VBajlG38xdRJSR7QGZJ7GBHmSlhI+dlZsEID58M5qgZLt6uv1L3fCU/PFJ4oNdMo0nqU qpC6nbltQ9jEoP9uRCfnezxkQQJioXxOeA40fq6sfECPg+MZbrwzQYjyDE2n08kL0e3q GL6g== Received: by 10.182.114.70 with SMTP id je6mr8200473obb.30.1331820747003; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.241.86] (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8sm1864384obv.19.2012.03.15.07.12.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B818C498-BB14-4D00-84B4-2D1712D6B8E4"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:12:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkGBiCgsXXTWhZNWgZImbBjbiOMkHnbB4O/tHYQXmCT5EZMXnSXQuMmEbGBvImLncZUApYZ Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:12:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B818C498-BB14-4D00-84B4-2D1712D6B8E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The intent is exactly that - we do not intend to mandate specific = authorization schemes though we do intend to recommend. In particular, = the draft submission will recommend use of OAuth2 Bearer Token. = Unfortunately, we missed the draft submission date, hence the protocol = draft that makes the point clear is unavailable.=20 The question, as I interpret, is (using the case below): do we need to = specify a scheme whereby Alice has a priori knowledge of what Alice has = access to or do we remain silent and simply specify what must happen = when an unauthorized Alice attempts to modify Bob. The current thinking = is the latter. =20 Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the = charter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by = some as "OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM = supports". But I do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT = LEAST OAuth (while not excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so = happens that using OAuth 2 Bearer Token makes this relatively painless = and un-intrusive to the scope of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. >=20 > Michael=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >=20 >=20 > So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But > that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different > folks get involved in a BoF coming from different > backgrounds. >=20 > Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite > sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably > fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. >=20 > Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break > interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do > authorization which would IMO be broken. >=20 > S >=20 > On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Stephen, >>=20 >> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the = wording in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM = implementations define and implement authorization". >>=20 >> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I = suggested (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add = anything, as mentioned in my previous message). Section 2. = Authentication and Authorization states make a series of = recommendations, among others a strong recommendation for support for = OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intended to the = IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization schemes, = among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any = authentication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right = approach. >>=20 >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>=20 >>=20 >> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >>=20 >> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >>=20 >> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) >> use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST >> implement" set of features for stuff like this. >>=20 >> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how >> to use the underlying scheme.) >>=20 >> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here >> and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization >> decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable >> manner. >>=20 >> S >>=20 >> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will = not provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for = authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or = important", rather that it is the scope of other groups. >>>=20 >>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider = adding: "... while not preventing the use of different authorization = mechanisms". This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is = specified works in conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>>=20 >>> Michael >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added = some >>>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address = the >>>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based = on >>>> the email discussions. Please review and send your = comments/feedback. >>>=20 >>> Your proposal says: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>> Defining new authentication schemes >>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>> authorization" >>>=20 >>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >>> get the 3rd. >>>=20 >>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>> e.g.: >>>=20 >>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>>=20 >>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >>> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >>> authorization is clearly needed. >>>=20 >>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >>> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >>> to reset Charlie's password. >>>=20 >>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >>> scim messages out of scope? >>>=20 >>> S >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim 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f3npNhQY8gu8lqrcqaj/5JSPMFSohnhYyHtYO2EvmwiXSTlXO7+2BukVisBFE0bFSPNV2WaFsN0S 3mEk9ra6tycBZdc/VoPiRd16zaVX1Kb2r+POFPgtmZoq7ygAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_B818C498-BB14-4D00-84B4-2D1712D6B8E4-- From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 07:15:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58BC21F862A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:15:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JKGCH5VkBSPj for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D390D21F8627 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.10]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FEFnmN000799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:15:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FEFn40024477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:15:49 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:15:49 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Trey Drake Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:15:48 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0CtatrLhospknjRU684OyNbp6gpgAAGBXA Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5575@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> In-Reply-To: <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.10 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:15:54 -0000 This matches my understanding. Thanks, Michael -----Original Message----- From: Trey Drake [mailto:trey.drake@unboundid.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:12 AM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: Stephen Farrell; scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 The intent is exactly that - we do not intend to mandate specific authoriza= tion schemes though we do intend to recommend. In particular, the draft su= bmission will recommend use of OAuth2 Bearer Token. Unfortunately, we miss= ed the draft submission date, hence the protocol draft that makes the point= clear is unavailable.=20 The question, as I interpret, is (using the case below): do we need to spec= ify a scheme whereby Alice has a priori knowledge of what Alice has access = to or do we remain silent and simply specify what must happen when an unaut= horized Alice attempts to modify Bob. The current thinking is the latter. = =20 Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the char= ter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "= OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I = do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not = excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2= Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope = of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. >=20 > Michael=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >=20 >=20 > So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But > that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different > folks get involved in a BoF coming from different > backgrounds. >=20 > Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite > sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably > fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. >=20 > Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break > interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do > authorization which would IMO be broken. >=20 > S >=20 > On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Stephen, >>=20 >> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wor= ding in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementati= ons define and implement authorization". >>=20 >> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggest= ed (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as men= tioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization= states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendat= ion for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are inten= ded to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization s= chemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authe= ntication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. >>=20 >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>=20 >>=20 >> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >>=20 >> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >>=20 >> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) >> use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST >> implement" set of features for stuff like this. >>=20 >> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how >> to use the underlying scheme.) >>=20 >> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here >> and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization >> decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable >> manner. >>=20 >> S >>=20 >> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not= provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authoriza= tion. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather = that it is the scope of other groups. >>>=20 >>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "= ... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". Th= is will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjun= ction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>>=20 >>> Michael >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >>>=20 >>> Your proposal says: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>> Defining new authentication schemes >>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>> authorization" >>>=20 >>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >>> get the 3rd. >>>=20 >>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>> e.g.: >>>=20 >>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>>=20 >>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >>> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >>> authorization is clearly needed. >>>=20 >>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >>> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >>> to reset Charlie's password. >>>=20 >>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >>> scim messages out of scope? >>>=20 >>> S >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Thu Mar 15 07:16:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F4821F8688 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FamUECGJOrqK for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.scss.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C6A21F8681 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E375171C8B; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:16:01 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1331820960; bh=5WAZJbrkqyXarO hr6fy1QsRgFg4/Ho4cL/7sLH5vszg=; b=kU4Ck8Tl67oseW24yfcZGKhTy/L4Ck SzSZzpxpyer9QXD1S/Ui10mWsC32hYnZySH5CKqs5lzzrHlKnq6bL6bd8LPHdPCP XoLiFLAhtsMg1iI5X/jnc+JTg655m6Cx8RP9AHxTse2siy+ZxI4dIvMgKMH44u/D X1Le41aO5Ks+TwnIliE/YeqoldiUr6YKUdinDpgLJLQYL//8SVUeu58NdMaOta4E SEKqPbyLcsxjxR1rlvta/WGWnOv9Ef/7W25BijazID5d1no31GBssMt/7NVnO6R1 536Rtr6ZTkY12bOy/xcDWkBRwqAMrc8EVrGW1GwXYdlDOBTw5KUjVv8w== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id EthJFW9nl0Su; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.7] (unknown [86.41.7.37]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 906BC171C3E; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F61F99F.2020904@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:15:59 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Trey Drake References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> In-Reply-To: <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:16:03 -0000 On 03/15/2012 02:12 PM, Trey Drake wrote: > The intent is exactly that - we do not intend to mandate specific authorization schemes though we do intend to recommend. In particular, the draft submission will recommend use of OAuth2 Bearer Token. Unfortunately, we missed the draft submission date, hence the protocol draft that makes the point clear is unavailable. > > The question, as I interpret, is (using the case below): do we need to specify a scheme whereby Alice has a priori knowledge of what Alice has access to or do we remain silent and simply specify what must happen when an unauthorized Alice attempts to modify Bob. The current thinking is the latter. You need to tell the developer of Alice's code how to write the code so Alice can demonstrate that she is authorized to all the potential Bob's in the world for which she is in fact authorized to do whatever operation she's trying. Whether or not Alice needs to be able to ask Bob what she's allowed to do is a different issue entirely. S > Thanks, > Trey > > > On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > >> I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the charter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2 Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But >> that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different >> folks get involved in a BoF coming from different >> backgrounds. >> >> Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite >> sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably >> fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. >> >> Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break >> interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do >> authorization which would IMO be broken. >> >> S >> >> On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> Stephen, >>> >>> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wording in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization". >>> >>> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggested (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as mentioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendation for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intended to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization schemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authentication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. >>> >>> Michael >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >>> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >>> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >>> >>> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >>> >>> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) >>> use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST >>> implement" set of features for stuff like this. >>> >>> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >>> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how >>> to use the underlying scheme.) >>> >>> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here >>> and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization >>> decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable >>> manner. >>> >>> S >>> >>> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather that it is the scope of other groups. >>>> >>>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>>>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>>>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>>>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >>>> >>>> Your proposal says: >>>> >>>> >>>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>>> Defining new authentication schemes >>>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>>> authorization" >>>> >>>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >>>> get the 3rd. >>>> >>>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>>> e.g.: >>>> >>>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>>> >>>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >>>> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >>>> authorization is clearly needed. >>>> >>>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >>>> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >>>> to reset Charlie's password. >>>> >>>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >>>> scim messages out of scope? >>>> >>>> S >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From prvs=414ec9017=Mark.Diodati@gartner.com Thu Mar 15 07:25:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E648621F85D2 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:25:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eUItiXMJdgoh for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iron-main.gartner.com (iron-main.gartner.com [207.140.148.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0795721F85D3 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:25:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap8EAKX7YU8KQCMD/2dsb2JhbABDty2CCQEBAQMBAQEBJBM0CwUHBAIBCBEEAQEBCg4GBgMHJwsUCQgCBA4FCIYJgXQQrBSOFASKQYMmgj1jBKYIgmaBXA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,591,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="102845197" From: "Diodati,Mark" To: Trey Drake , "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: AQHNArWyxzmJZMt6TUmH3nTx1hwCLZZrZ9Hg Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:25:07 +0000 References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> In-Reply-To: <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.127.2.130] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:25:33 -0000 +1 on Trey's assessment. Also, SCIM should not mandate OAuth. There are other mechanisms for authori= zation for authentication. Particularly, some folks will want to use certif= icates (perhaps backed with private key stored in an HSM) and (potentially)= passwords for testing or lower assurance services. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Trey Drake [mailto:trey.drake@unboundid.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:12 AM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar); Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 The intent is exactly that - we do not intend to mandate specific authoriza= tion schemes though we do intend to recommend. In particular, the draft su= bmission will recommend use of OAuth2 Bearer Token. Unfortunately, we miss= ed the draft submission date, hence the protocol draft that makes the point= clear is unavailable. The question, as I interpret, is (using the case below): do we need to spec= ify a scheme whereby Alice has a priori knowledge of what Alice has access = to or do we remain silent and simply specify what must happen when an unaut= horized Alice attempts to modify Bob. The current thinking is the latter. Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the char= ter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "= OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I = do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not = excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2= Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope = of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But > that's ok and something that's not uncommon when different > folks get involved in a BoF coming from different > backgrounds. > > Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite > sensible in this case. In any case, OAuth is probably > fairly clearly something that'd need to be considered. > > Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break > interop and require pairwise agreements as to how to do > authorization which would IMO be broken. > > S > > On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Stephen, >> >> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wor= ding in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementati= ons define and implement authorization". >> >> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggest= ed (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as men= tioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization= states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendat= ion for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are inten= ded to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization s= chemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authe= ntication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >> >> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >> >> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) >> use the same thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST >> implement" set of features for stuff like this. >> >> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how >> to use the underlying scheme.) >> >> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here >> and maybe do some profiling, so that authorization >> decisions can be made in a secure and interoperable >> manner. >> >> S >> >> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not= provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authoriza= tion. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather = that it is the scope of other groups. >>> >>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "= ... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". Th= is will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjun= ction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>> >>> >>> >>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added some >>>> text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to address the >>>> questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous text based on >>>> the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >>> >>> Your proposal says: >>> >>> >>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>> Defining new authentication schemes >>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>> authorization" >>> >>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't >>> get the 3rd. >>> >>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>> e.g.: >>> >>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>> >>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's >>> authenticated can reset Charlie's password, so some >>> authorization is clearly needed. >>> >>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob >>> don't have a common way to determine that Alice is ok >>> to reset Charlie's password. >>> >>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such >>> scim messages out of scope? >>> >>> S >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the = person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confid= ential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have = received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute,= or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender= immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any a= ttachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus fr= ee. From sal@idmachines.com Thu Mar 15 07:53:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1150521F871E for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:53:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GIeAlZo91AIy for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound004.roc2.bluetie.com (outbound004.roc2.bluetie.com [208.89.132.144]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15ED521F86EC for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emta003.roc2.bluetie.com ([10.200.2.133]) by outbound004.roc2.bluetie.com with bizsmtp id lqtV1i0012sBFZW01qtVZ4; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:53:29 -0400 X-CMAE-OUT-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=F7bVh9dN c=1 sm=1 a=NJE6f4d9Bx3nbBK2hKt3bQ==:17 a=YpuRe_CM9voA:10 a=rDVSmjPdij8A:10 a=I9BJdG6Tl3oA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=G_lMaSxbAAAA:8 a=IBWxhjiy2aQ0ZYJRwykA:9 a=k5t8igqYnpKgJhi3h_MA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 a=9z7aQ_sjC2AA:10 a=eoLfTLUlZZ9jpdJO:21 a=j80GMZR-nrXpSxyG:21 a=OAUM8_f4AAAA:8 a=Hzc67GbKAAAA:8 a=J_R1D7kMAAAA:8 a=-JFWqQHnAAAA:8 a=v_HabFGYiU2OGkFS6PwA:9 a=ZVk8-NSrHBgA:10 a=BaG7jsApzVfQP5CKn1ndzA==:117 X-CMAE-OUT-Score: 0.00 Received: from salPC (pool-71-174-35-147.bstnma.east.verizon.net [71.174.35.147]) (Authenticated sender: sal@idmachines.com) by emta003.roc2.bluetie.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAF311D01B8; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:53:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Salvatore D'Agostino" To: "'Diodati,Mark'" , "'Trey Drake'" , "'Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)'" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:53:29 -0400 Message-ID: <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHNArWyxzmJZMt6TUmH3nTx1hwCLZZrZ9HggAAIq1A= Content-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_047C_01CD0299.DB4311B0"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1 Cc: scim@ietf.org, "'Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)'" , 'Stephen Farrell' Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:53:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_047C_01CD0299.DB4311B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 Trey Is this no mandate for any client authN type or token type? Sal -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diodati,Mark Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:25 AM To: Trey Drake; Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar); Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 +1 on Trey's assessment. Also, SCIM should not mandate OAuth. There are other mechanisms for authorization for authentication. Particularly, some folks will want to use certificates (perhaps backed with private key stored in an HSM) and (potentially) passwords for testing or lower assurance services. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Trey Drake [mailto:trey.drake@unboundid.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:12 AM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar); Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 The intent is exactly that - we do not intend to mandate specific authorization schemes though we do intend to recommend. In particular, the draft submission will recommend use of OAuth2 Bearer Token. Unfortunately, we missed the draft submission date, hence the protocol draft that makes the point clear is unavailable. The question, as I interpret, is (using the case below): do we need to specify a scheme whereby Alice has a priori knowledge of what Alice has access to or do we remain silent and simply specify what must happen when an unauthorized Alice attempts to modify Bob. The current thinking is the latter. Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the charter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by some as "OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM supports". But I do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth (while not excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using OAuth 2 Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the scope of SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 > > > So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But that's ok and > something that's not uncommon when different folks get involved in a > BoF coming from different backgrounds. > > Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite sensible in this > case. In any case, OAuth is probably fairly clearly something that'd > need to be considered. > > Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break interop and > require pairwise agreements as to how to do authorization which would > IMO be broken. > > S > > On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Stephen, >> >> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the wording in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization". >> >> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I suggested (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add anything, as mentioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and Authorization states make a series of recommendations, among others a strong recommendation for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the recommendations are intended to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing authentication/authorization schemes, among them OAuth 2). However they stop short of mandating any authentication/authorization scheme, which I think is the right approach. >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >> >> >> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >> >> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >> >> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) use the same >> thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST implement" set of features >> for stuff like this. >> >> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how to use the >> underlying scheme.) >> >> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here and maybe do >> some profiling, so that authorization decisions can be made in a >> secure and interoperable manner. >> >> S >> >> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will not provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or important", rather that it is the scope of other groups. >>> >>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider adding: "... while not preventing the use of different authorization mechanisms". This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >>> Of Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>> >>> >>> >>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added >>>> some text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to >>>> address the questions Eliot raised and remove some of the ambiguous >>>> text based on the email discussions. Please review and send your comments/feedback. >>> >>> Your proposal says: >>> >>> >>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>> Defining new authentication schemes >>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>> authorization" >>> >>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't get the 3rd. >>> >>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>> e.g.: >>> >>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>> >>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's authenticated can >>> reset Charlie's password, so some authorization is clearly needed. >>> >>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob don't have a >>> common way to determine that Alice is ok to reset Charlie's >>> password. >>> >>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such scim messages >>> out of scope? >>> >>> S >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. 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Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim ------=_NextPart_000_047C_01CD0299.DB4311B0 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIITdDCCBDYw ggMeoAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwbzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0UxFDASBgNVBAoTC0FkZFRy dXN0IEFCMSYwJAYDVQQLEx1BZGRUcnVzdCBFeHRlcm5hbCBUVFAgTmV0d29yazEiMCAGA1UEAxMZ QWRkVHJ1c3QgRXh0ZXJuYWwgQ0EgUm9vdDAeFw0wMDA1MzAxMDQ4MzhaFw0yMDA1MzAxMDQ4Mzha MG8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNFMRQwEgYDVQQKEwtBZGRUcnVzdCBBQjEmMCQGA1UECxMdQWRkVHJ1c3Qg RXh0ZXJuYWwgVFRQIE5ldHdvcmsxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUFkZFRydXN0IEV4dGVybmFsIENBIFJvb3Qw ggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC39xoz5vIABC054E5b7R+8bA/Ntfojts7e mxEzl6QpTH2Tn71KvJPtAxrjj8/lbVBa1pcplFqAsEl62y6V/bjKvzc4LR4+kUGtcFbH8E8/6DKe 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[24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c2sm1563356oeb.13.2012.03.15.08.25.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_839F8E2C-5126-40CE-B19E-94CB226A2967"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:25:37 -0500 Message-Id: <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> To: "Salvatore D'Agostino" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnTzkPXIKlh38GP+KS+YUwK4kl08LkKxD3BOpyUacxTJgBFz+EzrN3Z9lfDpZPlxaFJH8FU Cc: "'Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)'" , "'Diodati, Mark'" , 'Stephen Farrell' , "'Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)'" , scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:25:44 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:25:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_839F8E2C-5126-40CE-B19E-94CB226A2967 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm sure this will (once again) be heavily debated once the group is = formed. In the past the balancing act was bent towards pragmatism; = i.e., what can organizations actually roll out in the foreseeable = future? The answer is/was recommendation for OAuth bearer tokens, = language encouraging service providers to remain flexible w.r.t. authN/Z = schemes, and a facility for discovering the authentication schemes = supported by the service provider. The latter enables a = developer/consumer the ability to poke through and select an appropriate = scheme. Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Salvatore D'Agostino wrote: > +1 Trey >=20 > Is this no mandate for any client authN type or token type? >=20 > Sal >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > Diodati,Mark > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:25 AM > To: Trey Drake; Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar); Stephen Farrell > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >=20 > +1 on Trey's assessment. >=20 > Also, SCIM should not mandate OAuth. There are other mechanisms for > authorization for authentication. Particularly, some folks will want = to use > certificates (perhaps backed with private key stored in an HSM) and > (potentially) passwords for testing or lower assurance services. >=20 > Mark >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Trey Drake [mailto:trey.drake@unboundid.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:12 AM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar); Stephen Farrell > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >=20 > The intent is exactly that - we do not intend to mandate specific > authorization schemes though we do intend to recommend. In = particular, the > draft submission will recommend use of OAuth2 Bearer Token. = Unfortunately, > we missed the draft submission date, hence the protocol draft that = makes the > point clear is unavailable. >=20 > The question, as I interpret, is (using the case below): do we need to > specify a scheme whereby Alice has a priori knowledge of what Alice = has > access to or do we remain silent and simply specify what must happen = when an > unauthorized Alice attempts to modify Bob. The current thinking is = the > latter. >=20 > Thanks, > Trey >=20 >=20 > On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >=20 >> I would not go as far as "mandating the use of OAuth" as part of the > charter of SCIM group, mainly because that may be then interpreted by = some > as "OAuth would be the only authorization mechanism that SCIM = supports". But > I do agree that SCIM MUST work in conjunction with AT LEAST OAuth = (while not > excluding other authorization mechanisms). It so happens that using = OAuth 2 > Bearer Token makes this relatively painless and un-intrusive to the = scope of > SCIM group to fulfill, IMHO. >>=20 >> Michael >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:31 AM >> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >> Cc: scim@ietf.org; Morteza Ansari (moransar) >> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>=20 >>=20 >> So I think we are using terms slightly differently. But that's ok and=20= >> something that's not uncommon when different folks get involved in a=20= >> BoF coming from different backgrounds. >>=20 >> Mandating the ability to support OAuth may be quite sensible in this=20= >> case. In any case, OAuth is probably fairly clearly something that'd=20= >> need to be considered. >>=20 >> Not doing that (or some equivalent) would seem to break interop and=20= >> require pairwise agreements as to how to do authorization which would=20= >> IMO be broken. >>=20 >> S >>=20 >> On 03/15/2012 01:21 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> Stephen, >>>=20 >>> When using "implementations" in my suggestion I was referring to the > wording in point 3 that you had an issue with: "Defining how SCIM > implementations define and implement authorization". >>>=20 >>> In the current SCIM specs, the wording is consistent with what I > suggested (although I don't think it is strictly necessary to add = anything, > as mentioned in my previous message). Section 2. Authentication and > Authorization states make a series of recommendations, among others a = strong > recommendation for support for OAuth 2 Bearer Token, but the = recommendations > are intended to the IMPLEMENTERS (to support existing > authentication/authorization schemes, among them OAuth 2). However = they stop > short of mandating any authentication/authorization scheme, which I = think is > the right approach. >>>=20 >>> Michael >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:11 AM >>> To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) >>> Cc: Morteza Ansari (moransar); scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by implementation. >>>=20 >>> RFCs of course don't provide code for stuff like this. >>>=20 >>> But to get interop, both sides need to (be able to) use the same=20 >>> thing. So RFCs do usually specify a "MUST implement" set of features=20= >>> for stuff like this. >>>=20 >>> If one did OAuth and one kerberos then that'd not work. >>> (In either case there'd likely be work to say just how to use the=20 >>> underlying scheme.) >>>=20 >>> Seems to me this wg would need to pick something here and maybe do=20= >>> some profiling, so that authorization decisions can be made in a=20 >>> secure and interoperable manner. >>>=20 >>> S >>>=20 >>> On 03/15/2012 01:05 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>>> The way I understood the proposed scope is that SCIM WG itself will = not > provide deliverables that recommend specific IMPLEMENTATIONS for > authorization. I did not understand it as "it's not necessary or = important", > rather that it is the scope of other groups. >>>>=20 >>>> Not sure if anything is needed, but if so - we could consider = adding: > "... while not preventing the use of different authorization = mechanisms". > This will raise the awareness to ensure that was is specified works in > conjunction with OAuth and/or other mechanisms. >>>>=20 >>>> Michael >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf=20 >>>> Of Stephen Farrell >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:09 AM >>>> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) >>>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 03/15/2012 03:24 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >>>>> Trey, Kelly, and I huddled over for a few minutes today and added=20= >>>>> some text to the version Eliot sent out yesterday. We tried to=20 >>>>> address the questions Eliot raised and remove some of the = ambiguous=20 >>>>> text based on the email discussions. Please review and send your > comments/feedback. >>>>=20 >>>> Your proposal says: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> "The group considers the following out of scope for this group: >>>> Defining new authentication schemes >>>> Defining new policy/authorization schemes >>>> Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement >>>> authorization" >>>>=20 >>>> The first two are fine, and entirely sensible. I don't get the 3rd. >>>>=20 >>>> scim will presumably define some messages that can be sent, >>>> e.g.: >>>>=20 >>>> Alice->Bob: Here's Charlie's new password >>>>=20 >>>> I don't see how you'll be secure if anyone that's authenticated can=20= >>>> reset Charlie's password, so some authorization is clearly needed. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't see how you'll get interop if Alice and Bob don't have a=20 >>>> common way to determine that Alice is ok to reset Charlie's=20 >>>> password. >>>>=20 >>>> What's the reason to try leave authorization for such scim messages=20= >>>> out of scope? >>>>=20 >>>> S >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of = the > person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is > confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended = recipient or > have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, > distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please = notify > the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this = message > and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is = error or > virus free. > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 --Apple-Mail=_839F8E2C-5126-40CE-B19E-94CB226A2967 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIM9jCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX DTE3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVowgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSsw KQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFy dENvbSBDbGFzcyAxIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIENsaWVudCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcN 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HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:47:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <4F611BA2.3050201@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:47:15 -0400 Message-ID: From: Michael Hammer To: Phil Hunt Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=485b390f7b54a66ee804bb4a01c0 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:47:55 -0000 --485b390f7b54a66ee804bb4a01c0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=485b390f7b54a66ee304bb4a01bf --485b390f7b54a66ee304bb4a01bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, Great information. However, I was looking through this for one specific word and unless I missed it, did not see it. Namely, where is the discussion of the trust model? It is easy to get lost in the weeds of pushing data around in various formats, but if the result does not provide an adequate chain of trust, then it could all be a house of cards. Although i will not be in Paris, it would be good if somewhere an explanation of how trust is maintained could be included. Mike On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Cross posting as requested... > > SCIM - What Should A New SCIM WG Address? > In my last blog post, I mentioned that SCIM 1.0 defines as a simple > provisioning API for cloud application service providers. SCIM is > architecturally oriented as a connector API specification in a hub and > spoke architecture typically with an enterprise provisioning system at th= e > hub and a cloud application service provider being a spoke. Other > variations could include provisioning for on-premsise SaaS applications a= s > well as directory synchronization. For each cloud application, the > enterprise IDM hub should be able to just invoke the SCIM RESTful API of = a > target application's SCIM provisioning end-point. > > > But is SCIM about to repeat much of the history of SPML? Has it corrected > some miss-steps? Yes, definitely. Is that enough? Let's look at some of t= he > historical issues that will be of relevance to the evolution of SCIM. Jus= t > to be clear, my comments are not to suggest that SCIM adopt SPML features= . > My comments are intended so that SCIM learn from SPML's history. > > The Value Problem > > SPML 1 was very much like SCIM 1.0 is now. A simple API that supported > basic CRUD operations. When SPML 1 was developed, the proposed value > proposition was that provisioning would be made easier if applications > would adopt a standard IDM protocol, then provisioning of enterprise > applications would become easier. The value to application developers was > that simpler, standardized management API would not be specific > to individual IDM vendors and could inter-operate with any IDM provisioni= ng > product. > > From the enterprise perspective SPML 1 made a lot of sense since it would > make all applications provision the same way. They could pick and choose > the IDM product they wanted to use. More importantly, enterprises would n= ot > have to pay for custom coding when attempting to provision to proprietary > APIs of applications. > > SPML 1 was somewhat successful, but before it could be broadly adopted, > several new requirements emerged and SPML 2 was defined (though SPML 1 > remains dominant). SPML 2 introduced many new features such as > =95 the clean separation of payload from protocol; > =95 the introduction of new common IDM operations (e.g. password operatio= ns); > =95 a formalized DSML/XSD profile; > =95 targeting - the ability to provision accounts through a gateway; and, > =95 an extension mechanism for registering capabilities so that > contributed capabilities could be made inter-operable. > Yet application vendors wanted more: they wanted standard schema > conventions, they wanted a standard that enabled them not to have to > introduce individual IDM vendor dependencies. If they could write one SPM= L > provider once and be done with it, their costs would go down. > > Many idM vendors were concerned that SPMLv2 had gone too far. In the end, > it was either perceived complexity or the basic value proposition was not > enough for SPML to succeed. > > Has SCIM moved the ball forwards? On one important point, the answer is > yes. SCIM has put forward a well defined schema with clear definition of > attributes and their use or meaning. The RESTful style of SCIM keeps sche= ma > cleanly separated. > > The Information Semantics Fidelity Trade-off > > IDM Provisioning product developers have always faced an engineering > trade-off. Would a standardized provisioning protocol/API lower developme= nt > costs? Each application is unique, therefore each unique application APIs > often has highly specific semantics and contextual meanings. While saving > money initially by using a standardized SCIM or SPML API, does this mean = a > loss of "fidelity" or functionality? Do different systems treat the notio= n > of person or user in the same way? What does delete person mean? In > translating information semantics, is mapping intelligence in the hub or = in > the spoke or somewhere in-between? The engineering question is: should th= e > provisioning system understand the true nature of the application, or > should the application understand provisioning systems and behave like > an identity store? In my experience, there's no clear answer. It depends = on > the nature of the application. > > Does SCIM help in this regard? That is yet to be determined. The SCIM > community will need to discuss issues like how to handle high level IDM > operations like suspend vs. delete, password resets, federation and other > deeply IDM specific issues and how they are operationally mated with a > diverse application services API community. > > The Gateway Problem > > Corporations that are organized into divisions often end up with > different independent IT organizations and outsourced providers -- > especially after corporate re-organizations, acquisitions, and > divestitures. In these cases, single-hub provisioning systems often > become unpractical. While some may view this as rare situation, the whole > idea of a cloud based apps hosted externally makes this situation de > rigueur. > > In these cases a key provisioning architecture element is the ability > to support provisioning gateways and hub-to-hub provisioning. Gateways > (or proxies) serve a dual purpose of both firewalling direct access to > internal services and they serve to greatly simplify network complexity f= or > inter-organization communication. As well as solving basic firewalling > issues, gateways can also support mapping functions changing from a > standardized provisioning protocol like SCIM into application specific > connector protocols like CRM OnDemand who may or may not have built suppo= rt > for a protocol such as SCIM. > > Since a gateway acts as a "proxy" to other connected SaaS services, SCIM > needs the ability route or "target" operations to specific application > end-points. SPML 2.0 and now RESTpml/SIMPLEST supports targeting. Targeti= ng > enables a provisioning "hub" to indicate to a provisioning "gateway" that > particular person requires an account in a particular target system. In t= he > diagram above, Alice, employee 1234 is to be provisioned into the > "Finance" application. > > SCIM with routing/targeting becomes a critical communication protocol for > hub-to-hub and hub-to-gateway provisioning. Unlike SPML implementation of > the past, inter-operability becomes a key requirement because in the worl= d > of cloud provisioning it is more likely that gateway and hub > implementations will come from different provisioning product developers. > > The Cloud Does Change Everything > > SPML was built for a world where everything occurred inside an enterprise= . > But the requirements for cloud identity management are substantially > different. Cloud based provisioning architecture must take into account: > =95 Performance and Scalability =96 A lightweight HTTP protocol such as > with REST/JSON is a cornerstone requirement when provision cloud > environments with 100s of millions of users. > =95 Firewall requirements =96 securely connecting directly to application > APIs (standardized or not) will likely require some special sauce. It's n= ot > reasonable to expect all application end-points to be able to support thi= s > in the cloud. > =95 Cloud Providers are often "hubs" themselves =96 since cloud providers > offer more than one application service, cloud providers may behave more > like "hubs" than spokes. > =95 Cloud Providers With Value-Added Data =96 some cloud providers may > have provisioning and identity management systems of their own. This > suggests that cloud hubs may need to flow back to the enterprise. > =95 Entitlement Reporting =96 A big requirement for provisioning these da= ys > with SOX is the need for entitlement reporting. Further, when you are > paying an external cloud provider for services rendered, you want to make > sure you are paying for the correct employees to use cloud services. A ke= y > component of provisioning systems need to report back available rights of > all users from all applications, especially through cloud "hubs". > =95 Inter-operability =96 no longer can we assume hubs and gateways are > provided by a single vendor. Cloud-based provisioning will almost always = be > multi-vendor based. > What Should The New SCIM WG Address? > > The main success of SCIM has been a standardized schema. It defines the > attributes and says what each means -- something that application vendors > always wanted. This is goodness. Yet, there are some gaps when you start = to > consider the overall provisioning system that will emerge from SCIM's > adoption. > > A couple of scope items that the future IETF SCIM WG should be considerin= g: > > =95 Routing or targeting =96 SCIM needs to have a way to handle updates > through gateways and hub-to-hub relationships for supporting multi-servic= e > cloud providers. > =95 Persons as distinct from Users =96 Currently SCIM combines these enti= ties > together in a simple form. The reality is that in the hub, persons hold > multiple user accounts. Is a change needed to SCIM schema to support > managing the relationships between persons and their user accounts? This > may not need change, but wider discussion is needed. > =95 Peer relationships =96 Cloud providers with hubs may need to be able = to > flow updates back to client hubs. > =95 Reporting =96 attestation is a key component of provisioning. Not onl= y > will clients want to be able to reconcile what cloud providers are chargi= ng > for, but clients also still have requirements driven by Sarbanes-Oxley. > SPML's approach was burdensome. Could SCIM support the ability for a clie= nt > "hub" to get the information it needs to accomplish this in a lightweight > way in the spirit of SCIM? > > Phil > > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com > > > > > > On 2012-03-14, at 3:28 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > > > On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > > In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting > > issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of > > thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: > > > http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address= .html > > > Hi Phil, > > I really do hate to be a stickler, but I don't think that the IETF can > consider your blog post to be an "IETF Contribution" in accordance with > the Note Well rules -- I > realize that you put time and energy into those nice graphics, but could > we trouble you to at least post the text of your comments to this > mailing list? It really is for your own good. :) > > Thanks! > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > --485b390f7b54a66ee304bb4a01bf Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil,

Great information. =A0However, I was looking throu= gh this for one specific word and unless I missed it, did not see it.
=
Namely, where is the discussion of the trust model? =A0

=
It is easy to get lost in the weeds of pushing data around in various = formats, but if the result does not provide an adequate chain of trust, the= n it could all be a house of cards. =A0Although i will not be in Paris, it = would be good if somewhere an explanation of how trust is maintained could = be included.

Mike


On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:=
Cro= ss posting as requested...

SCIM - What Should= A New SCIM WG Address?
In my last blog post, I mentioned that=A0SCIM 1.0=A0defines as a simple pro= visioning API for cloud=A0application service providers. SCIM is architectu= rally oriented as a connector API specification=A0in a hub and spoke archit= ecture typically with an enterprise provisioning system at the hub=A0and a = cloud application service provider being a spoke. Other variations could in= clude=A0provisioning for on-premsise SaaS applications as well as directory= synchronization. For each=A0cloud application, the enterprise IDM hub shou= ld be able to just invoke the SCIM RESTful API=A0of a target application= 9;s SCIM provisioning end-point.


But is SCIM about to repeat m= uch of the history of SPML? Has it corrected some miss-steps?=A0Yes, defini= tely. Is that enough? Let's look at some of the historical issues that = will be of=A0relevance to the evolution of SCIM. Just to be clear, my comme= nts are=A0not=A0to suggest that=A0SCIM adopt SPML features. My comments are= intended so that SCIM learn from SPML's history.

The Value Problem

SPML 1 was very much like SCIM 1.0 is now. A s= imple API that supported basic CRUD=A0operations. When SPML 1 was developed= , the proposed value proposition was that=A0provisioning would be made easi= er if applications would adopt a standard IDM protocol, then=A0provisioning= of enterprise applications would become easier. The value to application= =A0developers was that simpler, standardized management API would not be sp= ecific to=A0individual IDM vendors and could inter-operate with any IDM pro= visioning product.

From the enterprise perspective SPML 1 made a lot of sense since it wou= ld make all=A0applications provision the same way. They could pick and choo= se the IDM product they=A0wanted to use. More importantly, enterprises woul= d not have to pay for custom coding when=A0attempting to provision to propr= ietary APIs of applications.

SPML 1 was somewhat successful, but before it could be broadly adopted,= several new=A0requirements emerged and SPML 2 was defined (though SPML 1 r= emains dominant). =A0SPML 2=A0introduced many new features such as
= =95 the clean separation of pa= yload from protocol;=A0
=95 the introductio= n of new common IDM operations (e.g. password operations);
=95 a formalized DSML/XSD profil= e;
=95 targeting - the= ability to provision accounts through a gateway; and,
=95 an extension mechanism for regis= tering capabilities so that contributed=A0capabilities could be made inter-= operable.
Yet application vendors wanted more: they wanted standard schema conv= entions, they=A0wanted a standard that enabled them not to have to introduc= e individual IDM vendor=A0dependencies. If they could write one SPML provid= er once and be done with it, their costs=A0would go down.

Many idM vendors were concerned that SPMLv2 had gone too far. In the en= d, it was either=A0perceived complexity or the basic value proposition was = not enough for SPML to succeed.

Has SCIM moved the ball forwards? On= one important point, the answer is yes. SCIM has put=A0forward a well defi= ned schema with clear definition of attributes and their use or meaning.=A0= The RESTful style of SCIM keeps schema cleanly separated.

The Information Semantics Fidelity Trade-off

IDM Provisioning pr= oduct developers have always faced an engineering trade-off. Would a=A0stan= dardized provisioning protocol/API lower development costs? Each applicatio= n is unique,=A0therefore each unique application APIs often has highly spec= ific semantics and contextual=A0meanings. While saving money initially by u= sing a standardized SCIM or SPML API, does this=A0mean a loss of "fide= lity" or functionality? Do different systems treat the notion of perso= n or=A0user in the same way? What does delete person mean? In translating i= nformation semantics,=A0is mapping intelligence in the hub or in the spoke = or somewhere in-between? The=A0engineering question is: should the provisio= ning system understand the true nature of the=A0application, or should the = application understand provisioning systems and behave like an=A0identity s= tore? In my experience, there's no clear answer. It depends on the natu= re of the=A0application.

Does SCIM help in this regard? That is yet to be determined. The SCIM c= ommunity will need=A0to discuss issues like how to handle high level IDM op= erations like suspend vs. delete,=A0password resets, federation and other d= eeply IDM specific issues and how they are=A0operationally mated with a div= erse application services API community.

The Gateway Problem

=
Corporations that are organized into=A0divisions often end up with dif= ferent=A0independent IT organizations and=A0outsourced providers -- especia= lly after=A0corporate re-organizations, acquisitions,=A0and divestitures. I= n these cases, single-hub provisioning systems often become=A0unpractical. = While some may view this as=A0rare situation, the whole idea of a cloud=A0b= ased apps hosted externally makes this=A0situation de rigueur.

In these cases a key provisioning=A0architecture element is the ability= to=A0support provisioning gateways and hub-to-hub provisioning. Gateways (= or=A0proxies) serve a dual purpose of both=A0firewalling direct access to i= nternal=A0services and they serve to greatly simplify=A0network complexity = for inter-organization communication. As well as solving basic firewalling = issues, gateways can also=A0support mapping functions changing from a stand= ardized provisioning protocol like SCIM into=A0application specific connect= or protocols like CRM OnDemand who may or may not have built=A0support for = a protocol such as SCIM.

Since a gateway acts as a "proxy" to other connected SaaS ser= vices, SCIM needs the ability=A0route or "target" operations to s= pecific application end-points. SPML 2.0 and now=A0RESTpml/SIMPLEST support= s targeting. Targeting enables a provisioning "hub" to indicate t= o=A0a provisioning "gateway" that particular person requires an a= ccount in a particular target=A0system. In the diagram above, Alice, employ= ee 1234 is to be provisioned into the "Finance"=A0application.
SCIM with routing/targeting becomes a critical communication protocol f= or hub-to-hub and=A0hub-to-gateway provisioning. Unlike SPML implementation= of the past, inter-operability=A0becomes a key requirement because in the = world of cloud provisioning it is more likely that=A0gateway and hub implem= entations will come from different provisioning product developers.

The Cloud Does Change Everything

SPML was built for a world wher= e everything occurred inside an enterprise. But the=A0requirements for clou= d identity management are substantially different. Cloud based=A0provisioni= ng architecture must take into account:
=95 Performance and Scala= bility =96 A lightweight HTTP protocol such as with=A0REST/JSON is a corner= stone requirement when provision cloud environments with=A0100s of millions= of users.
=95 Firewall requir= ements =96 securely connecting directly to application APIs=A0(standardized= or not) will likely require some special sauce. It's not reasonable to= =A0expect=A0all=A0application end-points to be able to support this in the = cloud.
=95 Cloud Providers= are often "hubs" themselves =96 since cloud providers offer more= =A0than one application service, cloud providers may behave more like "= ;hubs" than=A0spokes.
=95 Cloud Providers= With Value-Added Data =96 some cloud providers may have=A0provisioning and= identity management systems of their own. This suggests that=A0cloud hubs = may need to flow back to the enterprise.
=95 Entitlement Rep= orting =96 A big requirement for provisioning these days with SOX is=A0the = need for entitlement reporting. Further, when you are paying an external=A0= cloud provider for services rendered, you want to make sure you are paying = for=A0the correct employees to use cloud services. A key component of provi= sioning=A0systems need to report back available rights of all users from al= l applications,=A0especially through cloud "hubs".
=95 Inter-operabili= ty =96 no longer can we assume hubs and gateways are provided by a=A0single= vendor. Cloud-based provisioning will almost always be multi-vendor based.=
What Should The New SCIM WG Address?

The main success of SCIM = has been a standardized schema. It defines the attributes and says=A0what e= ach means -- something that application vendors always wanted. This is good= ness.=A0Yet, there are some gaps when you start to consider the overall pro= visioning system that will=A0emerge from SCIM's adoption.

A couple of scope items that the future IETF SCIM WG should be consider= ing:

=95 Routing o= r targeting =96 SCIM needs to have a way to handle updates through=A0gatewa= ys and hub-to-hub relationships for supporting multi-service cloud=A0provid= ers.
=95 Persons as dist= inct from Users =96 Currently SCIM combines these entities together in=A0a = simple form. The reality is that in the hub, persons hold multiple user acc= ounts.=A0Is a change needed to SCIM schema to support managing the relation= ships=A0between persons and their user accounts? This may not need change, = but wider=A0discussion is needed.
=95 Peer relationsh= ips =96 Cloud providers with hubs may need to be able to flow=A0updates bac= k to client hubs.
=95 Reporting =96 attestation is a key component of provisioning. Not onl= y will clients=A0want to be able to reconcile what cloud providers are char= ging for, but clients=A0also still have requirements driven by Sarbanes-Oxl= ey. SPML's approach was=A0burdensome. Could SCIM support the ability fo= r a client "hub" to get the=A0information it needs to accomplish = this in a lightweight way in the spirit of SCIM?


On 2012-03-14, a= t 3:28 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

<hat type=3D'AD'/>

On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrot= e:
In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on t= he Gateway/targeting
issue. In or= der to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of
thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at:
http://ww= w.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.html

Hi Phil,

I really do hate to be a stickler, but I d= on't think that the IETF can
consider your blog post to be an "= IETF Contribution" in accordance with
the Note Well rules <http://ww= w.ietf.org/about/note-well.html> -- I
realize that you put time and energy into those nice graphics, but couldwe trouble you to at least post the text of your comments to this
maili= ng list? It really is for your own good. :)

Thanks!

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_________________________________= ______________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

_______________________________________= ________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


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15 Mar 2012 09:21:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.112, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dFetnn1OjwxT for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A6E21F879F for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2FGLrDR011659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:21:54 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2FGLqCv012281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:21:53 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2FGLqt9031708; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:21:52 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.85.226.208) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:21:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F64FFF05-E2E8-4369-813B-55BA89BC42DA" From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:21:55 -0700 Message-Id: References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <4F611BA2.3050201@stpeter.im> To: Michael Hammer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4F621722.00A6,ss=1,re=-2.300,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:21:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F64FFF05-E2E8-4369-813B-55BA89BC42DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mike, Thanks. I didn't comment on trust because I did not see any additional scope = requirements that aren't already being discussed (e.g. support for = OAuth). Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-15, at 8:47 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > Phil, >=20 > Great information. However, I was looking through this for one = specific word and unless I missed it, did not see it. > Namely, where is the discussion of the trust model? =20 >=20 > It is easy to get lost in the weeds of pushing data around in various = formats, but if the result does not provide an adequate chain of trust, = then it could all be a house of cards. Although i will not be in Paris, = it would be good if somewhere an explanation of how trust is maintained = could be included. >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Phil Hunt = wrote: > Cross posting as requested... >=20 > SCIM - What Should A New SCIM WG Address? > In my last blog post, I mentioned that SCIM 1.0 defines as a simple = provisioning API for cloud application service providers. SCIM is = architecturally oriented as a connector API specification in a hub and = spoke architecture typically with an enterprise provisioning system at = the hub and a cloud application service provider being a spoke. Other = variations could include provisioning for on-premsise SaaS applications = as well as directory synchronization. For each cloud application, the = enterprise IDM hub should be able to just invoke the SCIM RESTful API of = a target application's SCIM provisioning end-point. > >=20 > But is SCIM about to repeat much of the history of SPML? Has it = corrected some miss-steps? Yes, definitely. Is that enough? Let's look = at some of the historical issues that will be of relevance to the = evolution of SCIM. Just to be clear, my comments are not to suggest that = SCIM adopt SPML features. My comments are intended so that SCIM learn = from SPML's history. >=20 > The Value Problem >=20 > SPML 1 was very much like SCIM 1.0 is now. A simple API that supported = basic CRUD operations. When SPML 1 was developed, the proposed value = proposition was that provisioning would be made easier if applications = would adopt a standard IDM protocol, then provisioning of enterprise = applications would become easier. The value to application developers = was that simpler, standardized management API would not be specific to = individual IDM vendors and could inter-operate with any IDM provisioning = product. >=20 > =46rom the enterprise perspective SPML 1 made a lot of sense since it = would make all applications provision the same way. They could pick and = choose the IDM product they wanted to use. More importantly, enterprises = would not have to pay for custom coding when attempting to provision to = proprietary APIs of applications. >=20 > SPML 1 was somewhat successful, but before it could be broadly = adopted, several new requirements emerged and SPML 2 was defined (though = SPML 1 remains dominant). SPML 2 introduced many new features such as > =95 the clean separation of payload from protocol;=20 > =95 the introduction of new common IDM operations (e.g. password = operations); > =95 a formalized DSML/XSD profile; > =95 targeting - the ability to provision accounts through a = gateway; and, > =95 an extension mechanism for registering capabilities so that = contributed capabilities could be made inter-operable. > Yet application vendors wanted more: they wanted standard schema = conventions, they wanted a standard that enabled them not to have to = introduce individual IDM vendor dependencies. If they could write one = SPML provider once and be done with it, their costs would go down. >=20 > Many idM vendors were concerned that SPMLv2 had gone too far. In the = end, it was either perceived complexity or the basic value proposition = was not enough for SPML to succeed. >=20 > Has SCIM moved the ball forwards? On one important point, the answer = is yes. SCIM has put forward a well defined schema with clear definition = of attributes and their use or meaning. The RESTful style of SCIM keeps = schema cleanly separated. >=20 > The Information Semantics Fidelity Trade-off >=20 > IDM Provisioning product developers have always faced an engineering = trade-off. Would a standardized provisioning protocol/API lower = development costs? Each application is unique, therefore each unique = application APIs often has highly specific semantics and contextual = meanings. While saving money initially by using a standardized SCIM or = SPML API, does this mean a loss of "fidelity" or functionality? Do = different systems treat the notion of person or user in the same way? = What does delete person mean? In translating information semantics, is = mapping intelligence in the hub or in the spoke or somewhere in-between? = The engineering question is: should the provisioning system understand = the true nature of the application, or should the application understand = provisioning systems and behave like an identity store? In my = experience, there's no clear answer. It depends on the nature of the = application. >=20 > Does SCIM help in this regard? That is yet to be determined. The SCIM = community will need to discuss issues like how to handle high level IDM = operations like suspend vs. delete, password resets, federation and = other deeply IDM specific issues and how they are operationally mated = with a diverse application services API community. >=20 > The Gateway Problem >=20 > > Corporations that are organized into divisions often end up with = different independent IT organizations and outsourced providers -- = especially after corporate re-organizations, acquisitions, and = divestitures. In these cases, single-hub provisioning systems often = become unpractical. While some may view this as rare situation, the = whole idea of a cloud based apps hosted externally makes this situation = de rigueur. >=20 > In these cases a key provisioning architecture element is the ability = to support provisioning gateways and hub-to-hub provisioning. Gateways = (or proxies) serve a dual purpose of both firewalling direct access to = internal services and they serve to greatly simplify network complexity = for inter-organization communication. As well as solving basic = firewalling issues, gateways can also support mapping functions changing = from a standardized provisioning protocol like SCIM into application = specific connector protocols like CRM OnDemand who may or may not have = built support for a protocol such as SCIM. >=20 > Since a gateway acts as a "proxy" to other connected SaaS services, = SCIM needs the ability route or "target" operations to specific = application end-points. SPML 2.0 and now RESTpml/SIMPLEST supports = targeting. Targeting enables a provisioning "hub" to indicate to a = provisioning "gateway" that particular person requires an account in a = particular target system. In the diagram above, Alice, employee 1234 is = to be provisioned into the "Finance" application. >=20 > SCIM with routing/targeting becomes a critical communication protocol = for hub-to-hub and hub-to-gateway provisioning. Unlike SPML = implementation of the past, inter-operability becomes a key requirement = because in the world of cloud provisioning it is more likely that = gateway and hub implementations will come from different provisioning = product developers. >=20 > The Cloud Does Change Everything >=20 > SPML was built for a world where everything occurred inside an = enterprise. But the requirements for cloud identity management are = substantially different. Cloud based provisioning architecture must take = into account: > =95 Performance and Scalability =96 A lightweight HTTP protocol = such as with REST/JSON is a cornerstone requirement when provision cloud = environments with 100s of millions of users. > =95 Firewall requirements =96 securely connecting directly to = application APIs (standardized or not) will likely require some special = sauce. It's not reasonable to expect all application end-points to be = able to support this in the cloud. > =95 Cloud Providers are often "hubs" themselves =96 since cloud = providers offer more than one application service, cloud providers may = behave more like "hubs" than spokes. > =95 Cloud Providers With Value-Added Data =96 some cloud = providers may have provisioning and identity management systems of their = own. This suggests that cloud hubs may need to flow back to the = enterprise. > =95 Entitlement Reporting =96 A big requirement for provisioning = these days with SOX is the need for entitlement reporting. Further, when = you are paying an external cloud provider for services rendered, you = want to make sure you are paying for the correct employees to use cloud = services. A key component of provisioning systems need to report back = available rights of all users from all applications, especially through = cloud "hubs". > =95 Inter-operability =96 no longer can we assume hubs and = gateways are provided by a single vendor. Cloud-based provisioning will = almost always be multi-vendor based. > What Should The New SCIM WG Address? >=20 > The main success of SCIM has been a standardized schema. It defines = the attributes and says what each means -- something that application = vendors always wanted. This is goodness. Yet, there are some gaps when = you start to consider the overall provisioning system that will emerge = from SCIM's adoption. >=20 > A couple of scope items that the future IETF SCIM WG should be = considering: >=20 > =95 Routing or targeting =96 SCIM needs to have a way to handle = updates through gateways and hub-to-hub relationships for supporting = multi-service cloud providers. > =95 Persons as distinct from Users =96 Currently SCIM combines = these entities together in a simple form. The reality is that in the = hub, persons hold multiple user accounts. Is a change needed to SCIM = schema to support managing the relationships between persons and their = user accounts? This may not need change, but wider discussion is needed. > =95 Peer relationships =96 Cloud providers with hubs may need to = be able to flow updates back to client hubs. > =95 Reporting =96 attestation is a key component of = provisioning. Not only will clients want to be able to reconcile what = cloud providers are charging for, but clients also still have = requirements driven by Sarbanes-Oxley. SPML's approach was burdensome. = Could SCIM support the ability for a client "hub" to get the information = it needs to accomplish this in a lightweight way in the spirit of SCIM? >=20 > Phil >=20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2012-03-14, at 3:28 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 >> >>=20 >> On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the = Gateway/targeting >>> issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of >>> thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at:=20 >>> = http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.= html >>=20 >> Hi Phil, >>=20 >> I really do hate to be a stickler, but I don't think that the IETF = can >> consider your blog post to be an "IETF Contribution" in accordance = with >> the Note Well rules -- I >> realize that you put time and energy into those nice graphics, but = could >> we trouble you to at least post the text of your comments to this >> mailing list? It really is for your own good. :) >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Peter >>=20 >> --=20 >> Peter Saint-Andre >> https://stpeter.im/ >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_F64FFF05-E2E8-4369-813B-55BA89BC42DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Phil

On 2012-03-15, at 8:47 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:

Phil,

Great information.  However, = I was looking through this for one specific word and unless I missed it, = did not see it.
Namely, where is the discussion of the trust = model?  

It is easy to get lost in the weeds of pushing data around in = various formats, but if the result does not provide an adequate chain of = trust, then it could all be a house of cards.  Although i will not = be in Paris, it would be good if somewhere an explanation of how trust = is maintained could be included.

Mike


On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> = wrote:
Cross posting as = requested...

SCIM - What Should A New SCIM = WG Address?
In my last blog post, I mentioned that SCIM 1.0 defines as a = simple provisioning API for cloud application service providers. = SCIM is architecturally oriented as a connector API = specification in a hub and spoke architecture typically with an = enterprise provisioning system at the hub and a cloud application = service provider being a spoke. Other variations could = include provisioning for on-premsise SaaS applications as well as = directory synchronization. For each cloud application, the = enterprise IDM hub should be able to just invoke the SCIM RESTful = API of a target application's SCIM provisioning end-point.
<Provisioning-Simple.png>

But is SCIM about to = repeat much of the history of SPML? Has it corrected some = miss-steps? Yes, definitely. Is that enough? Let's look at some of = the historical issues that will be of relevance to the evolution of = SCIM. Just to be clear, my comments are not to suggest = that SCIM adopt SPML features. My comments are intended so that = SCIM learn from SPML's history.

The Value Problem

SPML 1 was very much like SCIM 1.0 is now. = A simple API that supported basic CRUD operations. When SPML 1 was = developed, the proposed value proposition was that provisioning = would be made easier if applications would adopt a standard IDM = protocol, then provisioning of enterprise applications would become = easier. The value to application developers was that simpler, = standardized management API would not be specific to individual IDM = vendors and could inter-operate with any IDM provisioning product.

=46rom the enterprise perspective SPML 1 made a lot of sense since = it would make all applications provision the same way. They could = pick and choose the IDM product they wanted to use. More = importantly, enterprises would not have to pay for custom coding = when attempting to provision to proprietary APIs of = applications.

SPML 1 was somewhat successful, but before it could be broadly = adopted, several new requirements emerged and SPML 2 was defined = (though SPML 1 remains dominant).  SPML 2 introduced many new = features such as
=95= the clean separation of payload from protocol; 
=95 the = introduction of new common IDM operations (e.g. password = operations);
= =95 a formalized DSML/XSD profile;
=95 = targeting - the ability to provision accounts through a gateway; = and,
=95= an extension mechanism for registering capabilities so that = contributed capabilities could be made inter-operable.
Yet application vendors wanted more: they wanted standard schema = conventions, they wanted a standard that enabled them not to have = to introduce individual IDM vendor dependencies. If they could = write one SPML provider once and be done with it, their costs would = go down.

Many idM vendors were concerned that SPMLv2 had gone too far. In the = end, it was either perceived complexity or the basic value = proposition was not enough for SPML to succeed.

Has SCIM moved = the ball forwards? On one important point, the answer is yes. SCIM has = put forward a well defined schema with clear definition of = attributes and their use or meaning. The RESTful style of SCIM = keeps schema cleanly separated.

The Information Semantics Fidelity Trade-off

IDM Provisioning = product developers have always faced an engineering trade-off. Would = a standardized provisioning protocol/API lower development costs? = Each application is unique, therefore each unique application APIs = often has highly specific semantics and contextual meanings. While = saving money initially by using a standardized SCIM or SPML API, does = this mean a loss of "fidelity" or functionality? Do different = systems treat the notion of person or user in the same way? What = does delete person mean? In translating information semantics, is = mapping intelligence in the hub or in the spoke or somewhere in-between? = The engineering question is: should the provisioning system = understand the true nature of the application, or should the = application understand provisioning systems and behave like = an identity store? In my experience, there's no clear answer. It = depends on the nature of the application.

Does SCIM help in this regard? That is yet to be determined. The = SCIM community will need to discuss issues like how to handle high = level IDM operations like suspend vs. delete, password resets, = federation and other deeply IDM specific issues and how they = are operationally mated with a diverse application services API = community.

The Gateway = Problem

<Gateway-provisioning.png>
Cor= porations that are organized into divisions often end up with = different independent IT organizations and outsourced = providers -- especially after corporate re-organizations, = acquisitions, and divestitures. In these cases, single-hub = provisioning systems often become unpractical. While some may view = this as rare situation, the whole idea of a cloud based apps = hosted externally makes this situation de rigueur.

In these cases a key provisioning architecture element is the = ability to support provisioning gateways and hub-to-hub = provisioning. Gateways (or proxies) serve a dual purpose of = both firewalling direct access to internal services and they = serve to greatly simplify network complexity for inter-organization = communication. As well as solving basic firewalling issues, gateways can = also support mapping functions changing from a standardized = provisioning protocol like SCIM into application specific connector = protocols like CRM OnDemand who may or may not have built support = for a protocol such as SCIM.

Since a gateway acts as a "proxy" to other connected SaaS services, = SCIM needs the ability route or "target" operations to specific = application end-points. SPML 2.0 and now RESTpml/SIMPLEST supports = targeting. Targeting enables a provisioning "hub" to indicate to a = provisioning "gateway" that particular person requires an account in a = particular target system. In the diagram above, Alice, employee = 1234 is to be provisioned into the "Finance" application.

SCIM with routing/targeting becomes a critical communication = protocol for hub-to-hub and hub-to-gateway provisioning. Unlike = SPML implementation of the past, inter-operability becomes a key = requirement because in the world of cloud provisioning it is more likely = that gateway and hub implementations will come from different = provisioning product developers.

The Cloud Does Change Everything

SPML was built for a world = where everything occurred inside an enterprise. But = the requirements for cloud identity management are substantially = different. Cloud based provisioning architecture must take into = account:
=95 Performance = and Scalability =96 A lightweight HTTP protocol such as = with REST/JSON is a cornerstone requirement when provision cloud = environments with 100s of millions of users.
=95 = Firewall requirements =96 securely connecting directly to application = APIs (standardized or not) will likely require some special sauce. = It's not reasonable to expect all application end-points = to be able to support this in the cloud.
=95 Cloud = Providers are often "hubs" themselves =96 since cloud providers offer = more than one application service, cloud providers may behave more = like "hubs" than spokes.
=95 Cloud = Providers With Value-Added Data =96 some cloud providers may = have provisioning and identity management systems of their own. = This suggests that cloud hubs may need to flow back to the = enterprise.
=95 = Entitlement Reporting =96 A big requirement for provisioning these days = with SOX is the need for entitlement reporting. Further, when you = are paying an external cloud provider for services rendered, you = want to make sure you are paying for the correct employees to use = cloud services. A key component of provisioning systems need to = report back available rights of all users from all = applications, especially through cloud "hubs".
=95 = Inter-operability =96 no longer can we assume hubs and gateways are = provided by a single vendor. Cloud-based provisioning will almost = always be multi-vendor based.
What Should The New SCIM WG Address?

The main success of = SCIM has been a standardized schema. It defines the attributes and = says what each means -- something that application vendors always = wanted. This is goodness. Yet, there are some gaps when you start = to consider the overall provisioning system that will emerge from = SCIM's adoption.

A couple of scope items that the future IETF SCIM WG should be = considering:

=95= Routing or targeting =96 SCIM needs to have a way to handle updates = through gateways and hub-to-hub relationships for supporting = multi-service cloud providers.
=95 = Persons as distinct from Users =96 Currently SCIM combines these = entities together in a simple form. The reality is that in the hub, = persons hold multiple user accounts. Is a change needed to SCIM = schema to support managing the relationships between persons and = their user accounts? This may not need change, but wider discussion = is needed.
=95 Peer = relationships =96 Cloud providers with hubs may need to be able to = flow updates back to client hubs.
=95 Reporting =96 attestation is = a key component of provisioning. Not only will clients want to be = able to reconcile what cloud providers are charging for, but = clients also still have requirements driven by Sarbanes-Oxley. = SPML's approach was burdensome. Could SCIM support the ability for = a client "hub" to get the information it needs to accomplish this = in a lightweight way in the spirit of SCIM?


On = 2012-03-14, at 3:28 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

<hat type=3D'AD'/>

On 3/14/12 3:44 PM, = Phil Hunt wrote:
In previous emails, I promised more thoughts = on the Gateway/targeting
issue. = In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch = of
thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: =
http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-ne= w-scim-wg-address.html

Hi Phil,

I really do hate to be a stickler, but = I don't think that the IETF can
consider your blog post to be an = "IETF Contribution" in accordance with
the Note Well rules <http://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html> -- = I
realize that you put time and energy into those nice graphics, but = could
we trouble you to at least post the text of your comments to = this
mailing list? It really is for your own good. = :)

Thanks!

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_____________________= __________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
=


_________________= ______________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


_______________________________________________
scim mailing = list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/scim

= --Apple-Mail=_F64FFF05-E2E8-4369-813B-55BA89BC42DA-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 10:03:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233F21F87D4 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:03:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.104, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id laZTmLW0P0+5 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE4621F87D3 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-64-101-72-185.cisco.com (unknown [64.101.72.185]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AC1540058; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:16:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F6220E6.8080809@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:03:34 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <4F612433.5060503@stpeter.im> <612C3B6B-4098-4951-ACD6-BEA30B492F52@unboundid.com> <4F612668.4000403@stpeter.im> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62E89@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <2C17AE04-0F43-4A23-A8A2-3EE4D297FA2A@oracle.com> <4F61328C.9090202@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F61328C.9090202@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Trey Drake , "Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)" Subject: Re: [scim] Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:03:37 -0000 On 3/14/12 6:06 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/14/12 6:02 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >> It needs to be officially submitted. Yesterday if possible. > > As noted, the submission window won't open again until March 26. > Naturally, someone could post an entire Internet-Draft as a big message > to an IETF mailing list, although that is slightly unorthodox. :) If the > authors would like to do that as a stopgap measure, I can approve the > messages (if they are larger than the message limit). BTW, I have been in contact with the IETF Secretariat, and I can indeed approve manual publication of -00 Internet-Drafts. I'm now working with Trey to get them in the right format for submission. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com Thu Mar 15 11:18:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83FF21F87D1 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:18:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KVe+zH2phnyO for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (va3ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EBD21F878B for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail174-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.241) by VA3EHSOBE010.bigfish.com (10.7.40.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.22; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:13 +0000 Received: from mail174-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail174-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620F540660; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:13 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -48 X-BigFish: PS-48(zz9371I936eK542M1432N1418M98dK1447Mzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail174-va3: domain of sailpoint.com designates 157.56.240.85 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.240.85; envelope-from=kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com; helo=BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; Received: from mail174-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail174-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1331835491614910_3401; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS022.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.240]) by mail174-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8664E60049; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.85) by VA3EHSMHS022.bigfish.com (10.7.99.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:07 +0000 Received: from BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.188]) by BL2PRD0410HT005.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.99.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0123.000; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:06 +0000 From: Kelly Grizzle To: Phil Hunt , Charliemortimore Thread-Topic: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter Thread-Index: AQHNAiuwxBlZMqJYmEWd/VdqZ4zN35Zqcd+AgAAD7oCAAR3QsA== Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:06 +0000 Message-ID: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.226.147.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sailpoint.com Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:18:14 -0000 Phil, Thanks for the great write-up. I agree that the hub concept is highly rele= vant, and have actually been spending a fair amount of energy thinking abou= t how this might look in SCIM. In my mind there are two types of gateways:= a provisioning hub and an identity hub. A provisioning hub knows nothing = about the person -> user relationship. It simply provides a single SCIM-en= abled endpoint that can manage accounts on different targets. Similarly, a= n identity hub allows managing accounts on different targets, but also main= tains the person -> user relationships. Both have the firewall, single pro= tocol, etc... benefits that you mentioned, but the latter is more suited to= the IdM use cases that SPML addresses. I think that both are useful, so w= e should consider making the person -> user relationship an optional part o= f targeting/routing. I have some ideas on how this may fit into SCIM and would be happy to colla= borate and help lead this effort. Taking a step back ... while there is a strong need for this, I also think = that a majority of the SCIM service providers are not going to be serving a= s a hub (ie - they will only be managing their own users), so targeting sho= uld optional. --Kelly -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phi= l Hunt Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:49 PM To: Charliemortimore Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter Chuck, Agreed. Routing shouldn't be specific. The concern is that the client shoul= d not have direct knowledge of internal endpoints. In this case, I think t= he routing requirement is "logical". Create a Mail account, create a CRM = account, and so on. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-14, at 4:35 PM, Charliemortimore wrote: > Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup. =20 >=20 > I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality. Not yet convinced the= client needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power over the routing d= ecisions, at least in v1. Look forward to discussion and evolving my thin= king on this. =20 >=20 > - cmort >=20 > On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >=20 >> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting is= sue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of thoughts to= gether on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: >> http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-addres= s.html >>=20 >> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific issue o= f "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting). >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From phil.hunt@oracle.com Thu Mar 15 12:02:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506A121E804A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.264, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vbrnrRvY7RMt for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B4A21F870A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2FJ1uXS010809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:01:57 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2FJ1tmm012669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:01:56 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2FJ1tGg020791; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:01:55 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.85.226.208) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:01:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:01:58 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <67AC8CE3-CF17-40E8-A70C-115A66A07C5B@oracle.com> References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> To: Kelly Grizzle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F623CA6.0012,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Charliemortimore Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:02:04 -0000 Kelly, Agreed. Targeting should be optional. I'd like to look specifically how we can layer this on without requiring = disruptive change to the existing implementation.=20 Would be great to collaborate with you on this. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-15, at 11:18 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote: > Phil, >=20 > Thanks for the great write-up. I agree that the hub concept is highly = relevant, and have actually been spending a fair amount of energy = thinking about how this might look in SCIM. In my mind there are two = types of gateways: a provisioning hub and an identity hub. A = provisioning hub knows nothing about the person -> user relationship. = It simply provides a single SCIM-enabled endpoint that can manage = accounts on different targets. Similarly, an identity hub allows = managing accounts on different targets, but also maintains the person -> = user relationships. Both have the firewall, single protocol, etc... = benefits that you mentioned, but the latter is more suited to the IdM = use cases that SPML addresses. I think that both are useful, so we = should consider making the person -> user relationship an optional part = of targeting/routing. >=20 > I have some ideas on how this may fit into SCIM and would be happy to = collaborate and help lead this effort. >=20 > Taking a step back ... while there is a strong need for this, I also = think that a majority of the SCIM service providers are not going to be = serving as a hub (ie - they will only be managing their own users), so = targeting should optional. >=20 > --Kelly >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Phil Hunt > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:49 PM > To: Charliemortimore > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter >=20 > Chuck, >=20 > Agreed. Routing shouldn't be specific. The concern is that the client = should not have direct knowledge of internal endpoints. In this case, I = think the routing requirement is "logical". Create a Mail account, = create a CRM account, and so on. >=20 > Phil >=20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2012-03-14, at 4:35 PM, Charliemortimore wrote: >=20 >> Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup. =20 >>=20 >> I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality. Not yet convinced = the client needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power over the = routing decisions, at least in v1. Look forward to discussion and = evolving my thinking on this. =20 >>=20 >> - cmort >>=20 >> On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>=20 >>> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the = Gateway/targeting issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put = a bunch of thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog = at: >>> = http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.= html >>>=20 >>> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific = issue of "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting). >>>=20 >>> Phil >>>=20 >>> @independentid >>> www.independentid.com >>> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 12:51:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E087921E802D for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:51:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K-YByHnMkKAX for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F7F21F852B for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93F4540058 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:04:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F624846.2050400@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:51:34 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" References: <20120315184538.26489.57916.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120315184538.26489.57916.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20120315184538.26489.57916.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090907090507010007060903" Subject: [scim] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-scim-api-00.txt X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:51:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090907090507010007060903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI. Thanks to Trey for sending these to me so quickly. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-scim-api-00.txt Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:45:38 -0700 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Simple Cloud Identity Management: Protocol 1.0 Author(s) : C. Mortimore, et al Filename : draft-scim-api Pages : 45 Date : March 15, 2012 The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity in cloud based applications and services easier. The specification suite seeks to build upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. It's intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In essence, make it fast, cheap, and easy to move users in to, out of, and around the cloud. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-scim-api Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --------------090907090507010007060903 Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-type="0"; x-mac-creator="0"; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" --------------090907090507010007060903 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-scim-api" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-scim-api" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2012-03-15114537.I-D@ietf.org> --------------090907090507010007060903 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KSS1ELUFu bm91bmNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApJLUQtQW5ub3VuY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pLWQtYW5ub3VuY2UKSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQg ZGlyZWN0b3JpZXM6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvc2hhZG93Lmh0bWwKb3IgZnRwOi8v ZnRwLmlldGYub3JnL2lldGYvMXNoYWRvdy1zaXRlcy50eHQKCg== --------------090907090507010007060903-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 12:52:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33ADC21F857F for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:52:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbEjqFXlrzUT for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686B121F852B for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1414640058 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:04:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F62486F.7080705@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:52:15 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" References: <20120315185014.28449.257.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120315185014.28449.257.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20120315185014.28449.257.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050708060008020700020702" Subject: [scim] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-scim-core-schema-00.txt X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:52:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050708060008020700020702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also FYI. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-scim-core-schema-00.txt Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:50:14 -0700 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Simple Cloud Identity Management: Core Schema 1.0 Author(s) : C. Mortimore, et al Filename : draft-scim-core-schema Pages : 40 Date : March 15, 2012 The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed to make managing user identity in cloud based applications and services easier. The specification suite builds upon experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. Its intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this schema using standard protocols. In essence, make it fast, cheap, and easy to move identity in to, out of, and around the cloud. This document provides a platform neutral schema and extension model for representing users and groups in JSON and XML formats. This schema is intended for exchange and use with cloud service providers. Additional binding documents provide a standard REST API, SAML binding, and use cases. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-scim-core-schema Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --------------050708060008020700020702 Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-type="0"; x-mac-creator="0"; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" --------------050708060008020700020702 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-scim-core-schema" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-scim-core-schema" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2012-03-15115014.I-D@ietf.org> --------------050708060008020700020702 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KSS1ELUFu bm91bmNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApJLUQtQW5ub3VuY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pLWQtYW5ub3VuY2UKSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQg ZGlyZWN0b3JpZXM6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvc2hhZG93Lmh0bWwKb3IgZnRwOi8v ZnRwLmlldGYub3JnL2lldGYvMXNoYWRvdy1zaXRlcy50eHQKCg== --------------050708060008020700020702-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 13:12:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E25621F86C4 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.102, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9oFuJD+PBubt for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5AA21F86C3 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5A4C40058; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:24:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:12:20 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Trey Drake References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> In-Reply-To: <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)'" , scim@ietf.org, Salvatore D'Agostino , "'Diodati, Mark'" , "'Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)'" , 'Stephen Farrell' Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:12:23 -0000 On 3/15/12 9:25 AM, Trey Drake wrote: > I'm sure this will (once again) be heavily debated once the group is > formed. In the past the balancing act was bent towards pragmatism; > i.e., what can organizations actually roll out in the foreseeable > future? The answer is/was recommendation for OAuth bearer tokens, > language encouraging service providers to remain flexible w.r.t. > authN/Z schemes, and a facility for discovering the authentication > schemes supported by the service provider. The latter enables a > developer/consumer the ability to poke through and select an > appropriate scheme. First, without my sponsoring AD hat on, I agree with Stephen that there's confusion about terminology here. In IETF protocol specs, we tend to differentiate among two things: 1. Mandatory-to-implement. This means that if you're writing a code library, a server, or a client, your code MUST support the feature. 2. Mandatory-to-deploy. This means that all service providers MUST actually use the code in those implementations. We typically talk only about mandatory-to-implement. This enables service providers to be flexible in their deployments while still ensuring that we have a baseline for interoperability. Everything you guys have done to enable discovery of supported mechanisms fits right in with this way of specifying the protocol. Please also understand that mandatory-to-implement does *not* mean that you can't implement other mechanisms. It just means that everyone will have at least one mechanism in common. Second, with my sponsoring AD hat on, I strongly encourage folks to specify a mandatory-to-implement authorization technology, for the reasons that Stephen outlined. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From moransar@cisco.com Thu Mar 15 13:35:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB1121F86F8 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:35:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9dOwZW-HLF2R for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE1221F86D9 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:35:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=3368; 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xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:35:15 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:35:14 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE632D1@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0C5+7Ag4kqVHLxTteww4WGzYysmAAAdTTA References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Peter Saint-Andre" , "Trey Drake" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2012 20:35:15.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[20CB0AC0:01CD02EB] Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , "Diodati, Mark" , scim@ietf.org, Salvatore D'Agostino , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:35:21 -0000 R3JlYXQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBldmVyeW9uZS4gSSB0aGluayB3ZSBhcmUgYWxsIG9uIHRoZSBzYW1l IHBhZ2UgKG1heWJlIHdpdGggdGhlIGV4Y2VwdGlvbiBvZiBtYW5kYXRvcnkgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50 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b3JpemF0aW9uIHRlY2hub2xvZ3ksIGZvciB0aGUgcmVhc29ucyB0aGF0IFN0ZXBoZW4gb3V0bGlu ZWQuDQoNClBldGVyDQoNCi0tDQpQZXRlciBTYWludC1BbmRyZQ0KaHR0cHM6Ly9zdHBldGVyLmlt Lw0KDQoNCg== From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 15 13:36:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B4D21F86E8 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mi-NWCxNLTH4 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B4521F86D9 for ; Thu, 15 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[24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m3sm61303oem.7.2012.03.15.13.36.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D96620BA-D7CB-4770-8886-7FEA6C77E8E2"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:36:09 -0500 Message-Id: References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmRHTrJ1/c47OFHmMLjrqsHhrutr38u1cwWgXNg86fLyibuWilXbEvxjZN3fTGkM9pyZmdI Cc: "'Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)'" , scim@ietf.org, Salvatore D'Agostino , "'Diodati, Mark'" , "'Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)'" , 'Stephen Farrell' Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:36:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D96620BA-D7CB-4770-8886-7FEA6C77E8E2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I hear you. Now that Peter has expedited and posted (thanks!) a = protocol draft (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-scim-api-00.txt) we have = something more concrete to talk to. See section 2 (Authentication and = Authorization). =20 Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/15/12 9:25 AM, Trey Drake wrote: >> I'm sure this will (once again) be heavily debated once the group is >> formed. In the past the balancing act was bent towards pragmatism; >> i.e., what can organizations actually roll out in the foreseeable >> future? The answer is/was recommendation for OAuth bearer tokens, >> language encouraging service providers to remain flexible w.r.t. >> authN/Z schemes, and a facility for discovering the authentication >> schemes supported by the service provider. The latter enables a >> developer/consumer the ability to poke through and select an >> appropriate scheme. >=20 > First, without my sponsoring AD hat on, I agree with Stephen that > there's confusion about terminology here. In IETF protocol specs, we > tend to differentiate among two things: >=20 > 1. Mandatory-to-implement. This means that if you're writing a code > library, a server, or a client, your code MUST support the feature. >=20 > 2. Mandatory-to-deploy. This means that all service providers MUST > actually use the code in those implementations. >=20 > We typically talk only about mandatory-to-implement. This enables > service providers to be flexible in their deployments while still > ensuring that we have a baseline for interoperability. Everything you > guys have done to enable discovery of supported mechanisms fits right = in > with this way of specifying the protocol. Please also understand that > mandatory-to-implement does *not* mean that you can't implement other > mechanisms. It just means that everyone will have at least one = mechanism > in common. >=20 > Second, with my sponsoring AD hat on, I strongly encourage folks to > specify a mandatory-to-implement authorization technology, for the > reasons that Stephen outlined. >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_D96620BA-D7CB-4770-8886-7FEA6C77E8E2 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIM9jCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX DTE3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVowgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSsw KQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFy 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VU6LuF5kh3MTtND57p3ih5gwiNiNdNZ/dabfOyvPB2AyKh8Xd9VCGKqhkQYbzWrR2eliKNMAJ0wO 7UMsbfX33exSKmQCAXcKRvyrZpWxFgHAQxyoz6R1BqrbPOk7EX0qDOtmW/ToTlpsyXoxYkDmmnBa vKmpKFvjRIZfWVtWVshTVCGqGDNs2r7PAaQ+JDBu6MaXk3qsS2Zemei9KXjrjTnGKUMRwkO2TJmu 5EPrLIu55nRYJMNlWhll8A4Iu/35onDlX2KUT5RuVK78+VkAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_D96620BA-D7CB-4770-8886-7FEA6C77E8E2-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 13:41:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F1221E8025 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.102, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T8anrI-i0tV9 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B0C21E801E for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2436640058 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F625410.1020501@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:41:52 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:41:54 -0000 On 3/15/12 2:36 PM, Trey Drake wrote: > I hear you. Now that Peter has expedited and posted (thanks!) a > protocol draft (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-scim-api-00.txt) we have > something more concrete to talk to. See section 2 (Authentication > and Authorization). A more hyperlinked version is here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scim-api-00 Things like http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scim-api-00#section-2 can be easier to reference. :) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 13:51:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A044221F8656 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11bQLpS-B05Q for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E0E21F8646 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A4BF40058; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:04:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F625657.50907@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:51:35 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE632D1@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE632D1@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , scim@ietf.org, Trey Drake , Salvatore D'Agostino , "Diodati, Mark" , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0000 With my individual contributor hat on. I think. On 3/15/12 2:35 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Great discussion everyone. I think we are all on the same page (maybe > with the exception of mandatory to implement which I am sure we will > have many discussions on if the WG is created). The question is how > can we improve the wording of the third bullet to clearly say what we > intended to say? Does anyone have a suggestion? Remove the third bullet? :) Earlier in the charter we already say that we will be "applying existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models". That's a fine thing. It's also good that we're not expecting a SCIM working group (if formed) to define new authentication and authorization technologies. However, not providing a baseline MTI technology for either of those core security features doesn't appear to "improve security of the overall system", as the charter also says. I can assure you that Stephen isn't the only one who will be hammering the group on this point. IMHO it's better to agree that we need an MTI authorization technology, and fight later over which technology is best to choose as a baseline. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From lear@cisco.com Thu Mar 15 14:10:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F9521E8011 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5eKtyvKoEjgk for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AED421E8029 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:10:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=4361; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331845833; x=1333055433; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qOXMz5+Ui6Kw9qRp4WAttupPKXi8zFA/Eddom2XNMws=; b=kEMDsQEXsjRxY2NGS0aYe2y45/kjrKpt7D+GSp6IEaQvQ5/7YDqEkVs9 Bxiok2+dixb+oFapilab477INNgp+Gp2oXSqm6z5ITbmcNZYIfKXu1/U4 90YEw7X0te/vB/YsLLAx0cLBBhepg6/IKHAhoGCH+HvxbBkYvX+6kqBmv o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgIFAKFZYk+Q/khM/2dsb2JhbAA6CYU8sG6BB4IJAQEBBAEBAQ8BEAQiJQQGAQwECxEEAQEBAgIFDAoIAwICCQMCAQIBFR8JCAYNAQUCAQEeh2gLmnaNBJF/gS+JCgiDGIIYgRYElWGOP4FogmeBWw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,592,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="68598315" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2012 21:10:31 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com [10.55.82.125]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2FLAVtV012497; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:10:31 GMT Message-ID: <4F625AC6.3090905@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:10:30 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Hunt References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <67AC8CE3-CF17-40E8-A70C-115A66A07C5B@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <67AC8CE3-CF17-40E8-A70C-115A66A07C5B@oracle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Charliemortimore , Kelly Grizzle Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:10:34 -0000 One of the things the draft charter has discussed is an extension mechanism. It is also useful to sort the order of work. One useful way to handle both of these is to have a test case in mind. This might be it. That is- see if we can get the extension mechanism in place so that we can address multipoint. Eliot On 3/15/12 8:01 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > Kelly, > > Agreed. Targeting should be optional. > > I'd like to look specifically how we can layer this on without requiring disruptive change to the existing implementation. > > Would be great to collaborate with you on this. > > Phil > > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com > > > > > > On 2012-03-15, at 11:18 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote: > >> Phil, >> >> Thanks for the great write-up. I agree that the hub concept is highly relevant, and have actually been spending a fair amount of energy thinking about how this might look in SCIM. In my mind there are two types of gateways: a provisioning hub and an identity hub. A provisioning hub knows nothing about the person -> user relationship. It simply provides a single SCIM-enabled endpoint that can manage accounts on different targets. Similarly, an identity hub allows managing accounts on different targets, but also maintains the person -> user relationships. Both have the firewall, single protocol, etc... benefits that you mentioned, but the latter is more suited to the IdM use cases that SPML addresses. I think that both are useful, so we should consider making the person -> user relationship an optional part of targeting/routing. >> >> I have some ideas on how this may fit into SCIM and would be happy to collaborate and help lead this effort. >> >> Taking a step back ... while there is a strong need for this, I also think that a majority of the SCIM service providers are not going to be serving as a hub (ie - they will only be managing their own users), so targeting should optional. >> >> --Kelly >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt >> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:49 PM >> To: Charliemortimore >> Cc: scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter >> >> Chuck, >> >> Agreed. Routing shouldn't be specific. The concern is that the client should not have direct knowledge of internal endpoints. In this case, I think the routing requirement is "logical". Create a Mail account, create a CRM account, and so on. >> >> Phil >> >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2012-03-14, at 4:35 PM, Charliemortimore wrote: >> >>> Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup. >>> >>> I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality. Not yet convinced the client needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power over the routing decisions, at least in v1. Look forward to discussion and evolving my thinking on this. >>> >>> - cmort >>> >>> On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >>> >>>> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: >>>> http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.html >>>> >>>> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific issue of "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting). >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> @independentid >>>> www.independentid.com >>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 15 14:20:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143C621F86C3 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7zjCwav2hFu for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED10A21F86C1 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenm5 with SMTP id m5so4035764yen.31 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=grHzHEWJnAp3mkSFqMClKHQd5xh6vxTUjC1Y5ayXvvA=; b=Cb78yxY8jDLDjORgZztXdgZQpOS+2hxXNHUsFkc5NO6zWp262ZVWe+n6HIi5FTDjmA Mjh/f0MW/0qjj+qn4HYUX4vOJa1jYlL5Bp8oIksVK5n0u9Q2b+YppcmXmRdaUapL4gbm vNuU99wl8chXY1b3bNJSuABerMDC36DUZdZ53MCMaVyqB0EBtbVvIEDekJKfWsdG0vbh OpmINsdTOmm/kPVYi8izQNzys+Tw2pAwQrX/Txz4QdaF5r8pfP9HZxi7RsiJ7+cIhn+p VSh/Ii4iK2GoI0DtK7OjeswZU4Vr1kH0MWIBqsLiaRPEDv+a70ieHA6RyUMv+mJe1i6G kNGg== Received: by 10.182.72.71 with SMTP id b7mr262705obv.11.1331846446426; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.241.86] (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f2sm2292187oef.6.2012.03.15.14.20.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_24824B51-013F-4924-9FD0-CD86DBE3CD70"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <4F625AC6.3090905@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:20:43 -0500 Message-Id: <4534DFDD-4F43-4688-B2B8-A86B37352336@unboundid.com> References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <67AC8CE3-CF17-40E8-A70C-115A66A07C5B@oracle.com> <4F625AC6.3090905@cisco.com> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkofou6W92J/OsgJ1lBQWbC5A5bDCFnHhaHZPeZnkxktxkA0sAy+61ANbtmYa0rcVAm4T7T Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Charliemortimore , Kelly Grizzle , Phil Hunt Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:20:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_24824B51-013F-4924-9FD0-CD86DBE3CD70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Something to consider - if targeting is no more than introducing = additional attributes (to describe the intended target) then a road has = been paved with the submitted core schema draft (see section 4) = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scim-core-schema-00#section-4 =20 Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >=20 > One of the things the draft charter has discussed is an extension > mechanism. It is also useful to sort the order of work. One useful = way > to handle both of these is to have a test case in mind. This might be > it. That is- see if we can get the extension mechanism in place so = that > we can address multipoint. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 3/15/12 8:01 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >> Kelly, >>=20 >> Agreed. Targeting should be optional. >>=20 >> I'd like to look specifically how we can layer this on without = requiring disruptive change to the existing implementation.=20 >>=20 >> Would be great to collaborate with you on this. >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2012-03-15, at 11:18 AM, Kelly Grizzle wrote: >>=20 >>> Phil, >>>=20 >>> Thanks for the great write-up. I agree that the hub concept is = highly relevant, and have actually been spending a fair amount of energy = thinking about how this might look in SCIM. In my mind there are two = types of gateways: a provisioning hub and an identity hub. A = provisioning hub knows nothing about the person -> user relationship. = It simply provides a single SCIM-enabled endpoint that can manage = accounts on different targets. Similarly, an identity hub allows = managing accounts on different targets, but also maintains the person -> = user relationships. Both have the firewall, single protocol, etc... = benefits that you mentioned, but the latter is more suited to the IdM = use cases that SPML addresses. I think that both are useful, so we = should consider making the person -> user relationship an optional part = of targeting/routing. >>>=20 >>> I have some ideas on how this may fit into SCIM and would be happy = to collaborate and help lead this effort. >>>=20 >>> Taking a step back ... while there is a strong need for this, I also = think that a majority of the SCIM service providers are not going to be = serving as a hub (ie - they will only be managing their own users), so = targeting should optional. >>>=20 >>> --Kelly >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Phil Hunt >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:49 PM >>> To: Charliemortimore >>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter >>>=20 >>> Chuck, >>>=20 >>> Agreed. Routing shouldn't be specific. The concern is that the = client should not have direct knowledge of internal endpoints. In this = case, I think the routing requirement is "logical". Create a Mail = account, create a CRM account, and so on. >>>=20 >>> Phil >>>=20 >>> @independentid >>> www.independentid.com >>> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2012-03-14, at 4:35 PM, Charliemortimore wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality. Not yet = convinced the client needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power = over the routing decisions, at least in v1. Look forward to discussion = and evolving my thinking on this. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - cmort >>>>=20 >>>> On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the = Gateway/targeting issue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put = a bunch of thoughts together on areas the WG might consider on my blog = at: >>>>> = http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-address.= html >>>>>=20 >>>>> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific = issue of "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Phil >>>>>=20 >>>>> @independentid >>>>> www.independentid.com >>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 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16:43:15 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Peter Saint-Andre , Trey Drake Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:43:14 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0C5+/o+WT6C7opQm6MsVLY4PyvNAAC8KSw Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Cc: "'Diodati, Mark'" , "scim@ietf.org" , "'Morteza Ansari \(moransar\)'" , Salvatore D'Agostino , 'Stephen Farrell' Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:43:24 -0000 UGV0ZXIsIGFsbDoNCg0KV2UgYXJlIGluIGFncmVlbWVudCB3aXRoIHJlc3BlY3QgdG8gIjEuIE1h bmRhdG9yeS10by1pbXBsZW1lbnQuIFRoaXMgbWVhbnMgdGhhdCBpZiB5b3UncmUgd3JpdGluZyBh IGNvZGUgDQo+IGxpYnJhcnksIGEgc2VydmVyLCBvciBhIGNsaWVudCwgeW91ciBjb2RlIE1VU1Qg c3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgZmVhdHVyZS4iDQoNCkkgYWxzbyBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IFNDSU0gc2hvdWxkIHdv 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IHRoaXMgd2F5IG9mIHNwZWNpZnlpbmcgdGhlIHByb3RvY29sLiBQbGVhc2UgYWxzbyB1bmRlcnN0 YW5kIHRoYXQNCm1hbmRhdG9yeS10by1pbXBsZW1lbnQgZG9lcyAqbm90KiBtZWFuIHRoYXQgeW91 IGNhbid0IGltcGxlbWVudCBvdGhlcg0KbWVjaGFuaXNtcy4gSXQganVzdCBtZWFucyB0aGF0IGV2 ZXJ5b25lIHdpbGwgaGF2ZSBhdCBsZWFzdCBvbmUgbWVjaGFuaXNtDQppbiBjb21tb24uDQoNClNl Y29uZCwgd2l0aCBteSBzcG9uc29yaW5nIEFEIGhhdCBvbiwgSSBzdHJvbmdseSBlbmNvdXJhZ2Ug Zm9sa3MgdG8NCnNwZWNpZnkgYSBtYW5kYXRvcnktdG8taW1wbGVtZW50IGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24g dGVjaG5vbG9neSwgZm9yIHRoZQ0KcmVhc29ucyB0aGF0IFN0ZXBoZW4gb3V0bGluZWQuDQoNClBl dGVyDQoNCi0tIA0KUGV0ZXIgU2FpbnQtQW5kcmUNCmh0dHBzOi8vc3RwZXRlci5pbS8NCg0KDQo= From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 14:54:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195D621E802C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WT+lvs9k3pKU for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9135121E801E for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BCC9140058; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:06:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:54:11 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:54:15 -0000 On 3/15/12 3:43 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > Peter, all: > > We are in agreement with respect to "1. Mandatory-to-implement. This > means that if you're writing a code >> library, a server, or a client, your code MUST support the >> feature." > > I also agree that SCIM should work in conjunction with different > authorization mechanism, in particular OAuth 2.0. > > But when it comes to for example using OAuth 2.0, does the above > really "Mandatory-to-implement" really mean this has to be captured > in SCIM spec? Depending on how this is worded, it could be > interpreted as "SCIM spec does not work UNLESS one implements OAuth > 2.0", which I don't think is the case. No, it means someone's code can't claim compliance unless it implements the OAuth 2.0 authorization mechanism. It could, of course, implement other authorization mechanisms in addition. IETF specs do this all the time. The example I'm most intimately familiar with is XMPP. There, we use SASL (RFC 4422) for authentication, and we mandate support for a specific SASL mechanism (SCRAM = RFC 5802) as a baseline for intoperability. If we said "you MUST support SASL but you can use any SASL mechanism you like", then some servers would implement SCRAM, some DIGEST-MD5, some EXTERNAL, some PLAIN over TLS, etc., but an XMPP client would never have any assurance that it could log in anywhere. IETF folks consider that a bad thing, and such an approach will simply not fly during security review later on. Let me turn the question on its head: what are we *gaining* by saying that implementations (*not* deployments) will *not* have a baseline authorization method? Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 15:02:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CED21E802C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:02:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZLfC8gOL3zMA for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0621721E8010 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.12]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FM2mNv025844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:02:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FM2kcn011702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:02:48 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:02:46 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Peter Saint-Andre Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:02:45 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0C9inT+O82Wm6rStWz9592eiTXwgAABylQ Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58B2@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.12 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:02:52 -0000 SSB0aGluayBJIGRpZCBub3QgbWFrZSBteXNlbGYgdW5kZXJzdG9vZCB3ZWxsLg0KTXkgcG9pbnQg aXM6ICJpcyB0aGlzIG1hbmRhdG9yeS10by1pbXBsZW1lbnQiIHBhcnQgYWZmZWN0aW5nIHRoZSB3 YXkgd2UgZW5kIHVwIGRlZmluaW5nIHRoZSBjb3JlIFNDSU0gZmVhdHVyZXM/IEFzIGluICJ0aGlz IGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gbWVjaGFuaXNtIGlzIHNwZWNpZmllZCBhcyBiZWluZyBpbnRlZ3JhbCBw YXJ0IG9mIFNDSU0iPw0KDQpPZiBjb3Vyc2UgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gaGFybSBpbiBzcGVjaWZ5aW5n IGl0IE1VU1Qgd29yayBXSVRIIE9BdXRoIDIuMC4NCg0KSXQgbG9va3MgbGlrZSB3ZSBoYXZlIHNv bWUgdGhhdCB3YW50IHRvIG1hbmRhdGUtdG8taW1wbGVtZW50IGFuIGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gbWVj aGFuaXNtIChwcm9iYWJseSBPQXV0aCAyLjApLCBvdGhlcnMgdGhhdCBkb24ndCwgYW5kIHNvbWUg KG15c2VsZiBhdCBsZWFzdCkgdGhhdCB3YW50IHRvIGJlIGNhcmVmdWwgYWJvdXQgaG93IHdlIG1h eSBtYW5kYXRlIGl0LCBpZiB3ZSBtYW5kYXRlIGl0Lg0KDQpXZSdsbCBzb3J0IGl0IG91dCBldmVu dHVhbGx5IEknbSBzdXJlLg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogUGV0 ZXIgU2FpbnQtQW5kcmUgW21haWx0bzpzdHBldGVyQHN0cGV0ZXIuaW1dIA0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNk YXksIE1hcmNoIDE1LCAyMDEyIDU6NTQgUE0NClRvOiBCcmVubmVyLCBNaWNoYWVsIFJhbGYgKE1p Y2hhZWwpDQpDYzogc2NpbUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtzY2ltXSBEcmFmdCBjaGFy dGVyIC0gdjQNCg0KPGhhdCB0eXBlPSdpbmRpdmlkdWFsJy8+DQoNCk9uIDMvMTUvMTIgMzo0MyBQ TSwgQnJlbm5lciwgTWljaGFlbCBSYWxmIChNaWNoYWVsKSB3cm90ZToNCj4gUGV0ZXIsIGFsbDoN Cj4gDQo+IFdlIGFyZSBpbiBhZ3JlZW1lbnQgd2l0aCByZXNwZWN0IHRvICIxLiBNYW5kYXRvcnkt dG8taW1wbGVtZW50LiBUaGlzDQo+IG1lYW5zIHRoYXQgaWYgeW91J3JlIHdyaXRpbmcgYSBjb2Rl DQo+PiBsaWJyYXJ5LCBhIHNlcnZlciwgb3IgYSBjbGllbnQsIHlvdXIgY29kZSBNVVNUIHN1cHBv cnQgdGhlDQo+PiBmZWF0dXJlLiINCj4gDQo+IEkgYWxzbyBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IFNDSU0gc2hvdWxk IHdvcmsgaW4gY29uanVuY3Rpb24gd2l0aCBkaWZmZXJlbnQNCj4gYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBtZWNo YW5pc20sIGluIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgT0F1dGggMi4wLg0KPiANCj4gQnV0IHdoZW4gaXQgY29tZXMg dG8gZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUgdXNpbmcgT0F1dGggMi4wLCBkb2VzIHRoZSBhYm92ZQ0KPiByZWFsbHkg Ik1hbmRhdG9yeS10by1pbXBsZW1lbnQiIHJlYWxseSBtZWFuIHRoaXMgaGFzIHRvIGJlIGNhcHR1 cmVkDQo+IGluIFNDSU0gc3BlYz8gRGVwZW5kaW5nIG9uIGhvdyB0aGlzIGlzIHdvcmRlZCwgaXQg Y291bGQgYmUNCj4gaW50ZXJwcmV0ZWQgYXMgIlNDSU0gc3BlYyBkb2VzIG5vdCB3b3JrIFVOTEVT UyBvbmUgaW1wbGVtZW50cyBPQXV0aA0KPiAyLjAiLCB3aGljaCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGlzIHRo ZSBjYXNlLg0KDQpObywgaXQgbWVhbnMgc29tZW9uZSdzIGNvZGUgY2FuJ3QgY2xhaW0gY29tcGxp YW5jZSB1bmxlc3MgaXQgaW1wbGVtZW50cw0KdGhlIE9BdXRoIDIuMCBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIG1l Y2hhbmlzbS4gSXQgY291bGQsIG9mIGNvdXJzZSwgaW1wbGVtZW50DQpvdGhlciBhdXRob3JpemF0 aW9uIG1lY2hhbmlzbXMgaW4gYWRkaXRpb24uDQoNCklFVEYgc3BlY3MgZG8gdGhpcyBhbGwgdGhl IHRpbWUuIFRoZSBleGFtcGxlIEknbSBtb3N0IGludGltYXRlbHkNCmZhbWlsaWFyIHdpdGggaXMg WE1QUC4gVGhlcmUsIHdlIHVzZSBTQVNMIChSRkMgNDQyMikgZm9yIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uLA0K YW5kIHdlIG1hbmRhdGUgc3VwcG9ydCBmb3IgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBTQVNMIG1lY2hhbmlzbSAoU0NS QU0gPSBSRkMgNTgwMikNCmFzIGEgYmFzZWxpbmUgZm9yIGludG9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LiBJZiB3ZSBz YWlkICJ5b3UgTVVTVCBzdXBwb3J0IFNBU0wgYnV0DQp5b3UgY2FuIHVzZSBhbnkgU0FTTCBtZWNo YW5pc20geW91IGxpa2UiLCB0aGVuIHNvbWUgc2VydmVycyB3b3VsZA0KaW1wbGVtZW50IFNDUkFN LCBzb21lIERJR0VTVC1NRDUsIHNvbWUgRVhURVJOQUwsIHNvbWUgUExBSU4gb3ZlciBUTFMsDQpl dGMuLCBidXQgYW4gWE1QUCBjbGllbnQgd291bGQgbmV2ZXIgaGF2ZSBhbnkgYXNzdXJhbmNlIHRo YXQgaXQgY291bGQNCmxvZyBpbiBhbnl3aGVyZS4gSUVURiBmb2xrcyBjb25zaWRlciB0aGF0IGEg YmFkIHRoaW5nLCBhbmQgc3VjaCBhbg0KYXBwcm9hY2ggd2lsbCBzaW1wbHkgbm90IGZseSBkdXJp bmcgc2VjdXJpdHkgcmV2aWV3IGxhdGVyIG9uLg0KDQpMZXQgbWUgdHVybiB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24g b24gaXRzIGhlYWQ6IHdoYXQgYXJlIHdlICpnYWluaW5nKiBieSBzYXlpbmcNCnRoYXQgaW1wbGVt ZW50YXRpb25zICgqbm90KiBkZXBsb3ltZW50cykgd2lsbCAqbm90KiBoYXZlIGEgYmFzZWxpbmUN CmF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gbWV0aG9kPw0KDQpQZXRlcg0KDQotLSANClBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJl DQpodHRwczovL3N0cGV0ZXIuaW0vDQoNCg0K From phil.hunt@oracle.com Thu Mar 15 15:04:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC23A21E8025 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2X8WTofmLDjo for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138E821E8010 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2FM46fj015785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:04:07 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2FM453w027543 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:04:06 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2FM45u9018762; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:04:05 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.85.226.208) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:04:05 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:04:02 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F626757.0098,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:04:15 -0000 It seems to me that BASIC Auth should be MTI (legacy cases). I'm a bit confused by a recommendation of OAuth2. OAuth2 issues tokens. = What you mean to say is that clients should be able to use tokens such = as those issued by OAuth2 or even Kerberos (or even ones issued OOB). Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-15, at 2:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >=20 > On 3/15/12 3:43 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Peter, all: >>=20 >> We are in agreement with respect to "1. Mandatory-to-implement. This >> means that if you're writing a code >>> library, a server, or a client, your code MUST support the >>> feature." >>=20 >> I also agree that SCIM should work in conjunction with different >> authorization mechanism, in particular OAuth 2.0. >>=20 >> But when it comes to for example using OAuth 2.0, does the above >> really "Mandatory-to-implement" really mean this has to be captured >> in SCIM spec? Depending on how this is worded, it could be >> interpreted as "SCIM spec does not work UNLESS one implements OAuth >> 2.0", which I don't think is the case. >=20 > No, it means someone's code can't claim compliance unless it = implements > the OAuth 2.0 authorization mechanism. It could, of course, implement > other authorization mechanisms in addition. >=20 > IETF specs do this all the time. The example I'm most intimately > familiar with is XMPP. There, we use SASL (RFC 4422) for = authentication, > and we mandate support for a specific SASL mechanism (SCRAM =3D RFC = 5802) > as a baseline for intoperability. If we said "you MUST support SASL = but > you can use any SASL mechanism you like", then some servers would > implement SCRAM, some DIGEST-MD5, some EXTERNAL, some PLAIN over TLS, > etc., but an XMPP client would never have any assurance that it could > log in anywhere. IETF folks consider that a bad thing, and such an > approach will simply not fly during security review later on. >=20 > Let me turn the question on its head: what are we *gaining* by saying > that implementations (*not* deployments) will *not* have a baseline > authorization method? >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 15:11:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5116921E8035 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:11:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40q2YTHMp+2m for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DC621E802C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.10]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2FMB9Q3024066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:11:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.110]) by usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2FMB9DZ025004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:11:09 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.110]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:11:09 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Phil Hunt , Peter Saint-Andre Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:11:08 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0C948Xz2AfN2A4S+a/B4voPFTgegAABLGA Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58C4@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.10 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:11:16 -0000 Yes, if we refer strictly to the passing of the token in a request header, = you are correct: the client should be able to include tokens (such as ...).= However, the client must somehow also obtain such tokens before using them= , and mechanisms for obtaining such tokens may differ. That is why I think the wording regarding what is "mandatory-to-implement" = as part of SCIM is important. If we limit it to the ability to pass authori= zation tokens to SCIM resources via SCIM requests, that would be OK for me. -----Original Message----- From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:04 PM To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael); scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 It seems to me that BASIC Auth should be MTI (legacy cases). I'm a bit confused by a recommendation of OAuth2. OAuth2 issues tokens. Wha= t you mean to say is that clients should be able to use tokens such as thos= e issued by OAuth2 or even Kerberos (or even ones issued OOB). Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-15, at 2:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >=20 > On 3/15/12 3:43 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> Peter, all: >>=20 >> We are in agreement with respect to "1. Mandatory-to-implement. This >> means that if you're writing a code >>> library, a server, or a client, your code MUST support the >>> feature." >>=20 >> I also agree that SCIM should work in conjunction with different >> authorization mechanism, in particular OAuth 2.0. >>=20 >> But when it comes to for example using OAuth 2.0, does the above >> really "Mandatory-to-implement" really mean this has to be captured >> in SCIM spec? Depending on how this is worded, it could be >> interpreted as "SCIM spec does not work UNLESS one implements OAuth >> 2.0", which I don't think is the case. >=20 > No, it means someone's code can't claim compliance unless it implements > the OAuth 2.0 authorization mechanism. It could, of course, implement > other authorization mechanisms in addition. >=20 > IETF specs do this all the time. The example I'm most intimately > familiar with is XMPP. There, we use SASL (RFC 4422) for authentication, > and we mandate support for a specific SASL mechanism (SCRAM =3D RFC 5802) > as a baseline for intoperability. If we said "you MUST support SASL but > you can use any SASL mechanism you like", then some servers would > implement SCRAM, some DIGEST-MD5, some EXTERNAL, some PLAIN over TLS, > etc., but an XMPP client would never have any assurance that it could > log in anywhere. IETF folks consider that a bad thing, and such an > approach will simply not fly during security review later on. >=20 > Let me turn the question on its head: what are we *gaining* by saying > that implementations (*not* deployments) will *not* have a baseline > authorization method? >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 15 15:20:19 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B94821F858B for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:20:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X1nzmamPGRcC for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B0A21F8587 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ghbg16 with SMTP id g16so4101211ghb.31 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:20:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=IWGhGf26SsPmzhI6FnmLws573QrsPNFF/CDP4fdBSA8=; b=giCTF9o2a0niO7YXfFtMmHELtjod21bLqth3iRUWe4qwcEQmO7VoKUER30SWmjb/ty jSCRJwDap2wHuVoO8gVrackRijVFK0p8O1tF37lH+sGxQPtaDjEocEe4lvRlAZS1u0Us fb/JRrzAcwDDn+9QRdr/I9KH02yGb1jHYMpb54SDgPeD6/s3AmV0aC+GwkiQCScjqZj7 iV4igPCZlyd4dEiQnQMaN5fNFdiZsXBiGgiUQbZGb6IiUXLVbAhgh1FQDgTJ50cAGemb ZJvU2gMuc0pLsQQhpFWFipetcK+ZLjEzgMh2uFUl8AuDAimB+wcx9X3ka8pb3XRk+qND FVCw== Received: by 10.60.11.228 with SMTP id t4mr289584oeb.68.1331850017749; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.241.86] (24-155-184-100.static.grandenetworks.net. [24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v10sm3056346obb.4.2012.03.15.15.20.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_61D215C2-C5FA-4E0A-BE5C-C1E82204F55E"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:20:15 -0500 Message-Id: References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> To: Phil Hunt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlDF4JYdubgSnPajNtq7BYfM0AuJ3n/Ck2BKGFvlRrWoolsMALUAeINVSQkOSAmDZxVN2tz Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , "scim@ietf.org" , Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:20:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_61D215C2-C5FA-4E0A-BE5C-C1E82204F55E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What's meant are bearer tokens. The original question pertained to = authZ not authN which is the road we attempted to drive around. Http = Basic is a sensible authN 'punt' given TLS is required - I'm sure others = will disagree. =20 Thanks, Trey On Mar 15, 2012, at 5:04 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: > It seems to me that BASIC Auth should be MTI (legacy cases). >=20 > I'm a bit confused by a recommendation of OAuth2. OAuth2 issues = tokens. What you mean to say is that clients should be able to use = tokens such as those issued by OAuth2 or even Kerberos (or even ones = issued OOB). >=20 > Phil >=20 > @independentid > www.independentid.com > phil.hunt@oracle.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2012-03-15, at 2:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 >> >>=20 >> On 3/15/12 3:43 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >>> Peter, all: >>>=20 >>> We are in agreement with respect to "1. Mandatory-to-implement. This >>> means that if you're writing a code >>>> library, a server, or a client, your code MUST support the >>>> feature." >>>=20 >>> I also agree that SCIM should work in conjunction with different >>> authorization mechanism, in particular OAuth 2.0. >>>=20 >>> But when it comes to for example using OAuth 2.0, does the above >>> really "Mandatory-to-implement" really mean this has to be captured >>> in SCIM spec? Depending on how this is worded, it could be >>> interpreted as "SCIM spec does not work UNLESS one implements OAuth >>> 2.0", which I don't think is the case. >>=20 >> No, it means someone's code can't claim compliance unless it = implements >> the OAuth 2.0 authorization mechanism. It could, of course, implement >> other authorization mechanisms in addition. >>=20 >> IETF specs do this all the time. The example I'm most intimately >> familiar with is XMPP. There, we use SASL (RFC 4422) for = authentication, >> and we mandate support for a specific SASL mechanism (SCRAM =3D RFC = 5802) >> as a baseline for intoperability. If we said "you MUST support SASL = but >> you can use any SASL mechanism you like", then some servers would >> implement SCRAM, some DIGEST-MD5, some EXTERNAL, some PLAIN over TLS, >> etc., but an XMPP client would never have any assurance that it could >> log in anywhere. IETF folks consider that a bad thing, and such an >> approach will simply not fly during security review later on. >>=20 >> Let me turn the question on its head: what are we *gaining* by saying >> that implementations (*not* deployments) will *not* have a baseline >> authorization method? >>=20 >> Peter >>=20 >> --=20 >> Peter Saint-Andre >> https://stpeter.im/ >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_61D215C2-C5FA-4E0A-BE5C-C1E82204F55E Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIM9jCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 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-6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MS88hvGejY+1 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod5og111.obsmtp.com (exprod5og111.obsmtp.com [64.18.0.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3156821F86A5 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CRN-CORP-MAIL02.courion.com ([209.236.194.251]) (using TLSv1) by exprod5ob111.postini.com ([64.18.4.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT2JvE0Nk0ipmmC2NogoZolJiKn6xNvIF@postini.com; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:37:16 PDT Received: from CRN-CORP-MAIL01.courion.com ([fe80::c90d:afa3:ddc0:26e8]) by CRN-CORP-MAIL02.courion.com ([fe80::b56b:d9c6:3747:4f10%13]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:37:06 -0400 From: "Milas, Brian" To: Kelly Grizzle , Phil Hunt , Charliemortimore Thread-Topic: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter Thread-Index: AQHNAt5AtajE7lhJwk6G3+J0dtx9G5Zr7v8w Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:37:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <421662F7-A0FA-4C21-81C9-857450B09DB4@oracle.com> <612C04D3-3D1C-4095-8E3E-66BD45CE067A@gmail.com> <699AE63C-79E1-40F5-8290-37289EB8C0E0@oracle.com> <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C63838C@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.78] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:37:17 -0000 We also see value in the hub approach and are interested in collaborating i= n this area. Brian Milas Chief Technology Officer phone: +1 508 879-8400, ext. 202 bmilas@courion.com=20 Connect with us: =A0=A0=20 www.courion.com=20 __________________________________________________=20 THIS EMAIL CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION=20 AND IS INTENDED FOR THE RECIPIENT ONLY.=20 PLEASE DELETE THIS IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED=20 IT IN ERROR.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Grizzle [mailto:kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:18 PM To: Phil Hunt; Charliemortimore Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter Phil, Thanks for the great write-up. I agree that the hub concept is highly rele= vant, and have actually been spending a fair amount of energy thinking abou= t how this might look in SCIM. In my mind there are two types of gateways:= a provisioning hub and an identity hub. A provisioning hub knows nothing = about the person -> user relationship. It simply provides a single SCIM-en= abled endpoint that can manage accounts on different targets. Similarly, a= n identity hub allows managing accounts on different targets, but also main= tains the person -> user relationships. Both have the firewall, single pro= tocol, etc... benefits that you mentioned, but the latter is more suited to= the IdM use cases that SPML addresses. I think that both are useful, so w= e should consider making the person -> user relationship an optional part o= f targeting/routing. I have some ideas on how this may fit into SCIM and would be happy to colla= borate and help lead this effort. Taking a step back ... while there is a strong need for this, I also think = that a majority of the SCIM service providers are not going to be serving a= s a hub (ie - they will only be managing their own users), so targeting sho= uld optional. --Kelly -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phi= l Hunt Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:49 PM To: Charliemortimore Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Thoughts on SCIM WG charter Chuck, Agreed. Routing shouldn't be specific. The concern is that the client shoul= d not have direct knowledge of internal endpoints. In this case, I think t= he routing requirement is "logical". Create a Mail account, create a CRM = account, and so on. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-14, at 4:35 PM, Charliemortimore wrote: > Hey Phil - good, thoughtful writeup. =20 >=20 > I agree the notion of gateways/hubs are a reality. Not yet convinced the= client needs to ( or even should have ) knowledge/power over the routing d= ecisions, at least in v1. Look forward to discussion and evolving my thin= king on this. =20 >=20 > - cmort >=20 > On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt wrote: >=20 >> In previous emails, I promised more thoughts on the Gateway/targeting is= sue. In order to support the scope discussion, I put a bunch of thoughts to= gether on areas the WG might consider on my blog at: >> http://www.independentid.com/2012/03/scim-what-should-new-scim-wg-addres= s.html >>=20 >> I'm still planning to post more info to the list on the specific issue o= f "gatewayed" provisioning (aka targeting). >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >> @independentid >> www.independentid.com >> phil.hunt@oracle.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 15 16:25:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A201C21E8043 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:25:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ab4ZW1LwZ0Wq for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A3721E8044 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E968040058; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:37:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F627A5E.20003@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:25:18 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58B2@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58B2@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:25:20 -0000 On 3/15/12 4:02 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I think I did not make myself understood well. > My point is: "is this mandatory-to-implement" part affecting the way we end up defining the core SCIM features? As in "this authorization mechanism is specified as being integral part of SCIM"? > > Of course there is no harm in specifying it MUST work WITH OAuth 2.0. > > It looks like we have some that want to mandate-to-implement an authorization mechanism (probably OAuth 2.0), others that don't, and some (myself at least) that want to be careful about how we may mandate it, if we mandate it. > > We'll sort it out eventually I'm sure. Well, Stephen seemed to think you'd need authorization to determine if a given entity was allowed to perform a given operation. For example, who is authorized to move UserA from Domain1 to Domain2? So yes, let's explore whether we need authorization first, then have a discussion about whether we need an MTI mechanism for that function. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From moransar@cisco.com Thu Mar 15 17:49:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F9D21E8056 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:49:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-Fy3exbDQvF for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83F321E800F for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:49:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=1947; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331858973; x=1333068573; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=OG80SX6JUGLL50j3MHKXV4h+5dAI/3ZLpt8yq9Dx/SI=; b=h85odqdWknk50aOzXNDwxYP1J4VK1Ctx5jQnkWBDZq+pgRjzR9qx3A+d q+MdCIwlBkCG5iosf5wStlRZ2o5L+9YevpZW6bpB4bC6B9MZEE9rhIfad susZpinAIrebLv6ET6NQHhj4x1xEL7Lv/hwOFXOzDUUeLiHR0fYTTPQpN Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAK6NYk+rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABCti6BB4IJAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0CwwEAgEIEQQBAQEKBhcBBgEmHwkIAQEEEwgah2cBC5pxnwIEkCRjBIhXm0mBaIME X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,593,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="36345715" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2012 00:49:31 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com [72.163.62.200]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2G0nUo5001753; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:49:30 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:49:30 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:49:29 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE6340D@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F627A5E.20003@stpeter.im> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0DAuSYIrVZqj9VRTK/NzV0d98y9AACvxqw References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com><4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie><219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com><4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie><219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com><4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie><219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com><3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com><20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com><048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com><9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com><4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im><219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com><4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im><219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58B2@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F627A5E.20003@stpeter.im> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Peter Saint-Andre" , "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Mar 2012 00:49:30.0012 (UTC) FILETIME=[A53A9DC0:01CD030E] Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:49:33 -0000 I think this is all good discussion and I think in due time we will have to come up with decisions on both fronts (what authorization we need in place, and what mechanism, if any needs to be mandatory to implement). However, I don't think we need to decide on what the answer is right now. Going back to the charter discussion, I like Peter's suggestion of removing the third bullet from the proposed charter. What do others think? Anyone object? Cheers, Morteza -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:25 PM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 On 3/15/12 4:02 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > I think I did not make myself understood well. > My point is: "is this mandatory-to-implement" part affecting the way we end up defining the core SCIM features? As in "this authorization mechanism is specified as being integral part of SCIM"? >=20 > Of course there is no harm in specifying it MUST work WITH OAuth 2.0. >=20 > It looks like we have some that want to mandate-to-implement an authorization mechanism (probably OAuth 2.0), others that don't, and some (myself at least) that want to be careful about how we may mandate it, if we mandate it. >=20 > We'll sort it out eventually I'm sure. Well, Stephen seemed to think you'd need authorization to determine if a given entity was allowed to perform a given operation. For example, who is authorized to move UserA from Domain1 to Domain2? So yes, let's explore whether we need authorization first, then have a discussion about whether we need an MTI mechanism for that function. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 15 17:55:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E032C21E804A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:55:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.698, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ksb+t1bSfLwi for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9C921E8049 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenm5 with SMTP id m5so4207090yen.31 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to :x-gm-message-state; bh=jOtl36+zJxkpVAzv8St0LiOS4nUBhl7vTL+TDFphYWY=; b=LV77H52OkCeET0a5+sikMs13cknQ0k5wLjkGisdrzpo3VWct0hVXsUVZVuBYh5n084 hLf+ii6hChT8s9QsJppfJz6swaro3NX1IymWbDkH0x1aiTTNM0PFJMl/3Ftjqef8Vl+T 7Of/apgMNUVD9GxyT8gRzx5fW/lgW1oD4e4xWXwIqxAmmjLHeTRHutTPXFrXT9GRJALE 96cz7kalKvgy1yuaq7z8MMIr2yL9f05IKMAZJijkRTSMs5mqnNbSZQDNauTqJnjvxHAd q52UVeZQu4i5B92OfjMGBPvDdsS1FpS38QQjLN/AafIjkutWR1lsERBRRNA9l7Pms63x svqA== Received: by 10.182.159.65 with SMTP id xa1mr815206obb.25.1331859345917; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.24] (cpe-66-69-203-135.austin.res.rr.com. [66.69.203.135]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h7sm2675834oeh.9.2012.03.15.17.55.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:55:45 -0700 (PDT) References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58B2@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F627A5E.20003@stpeter.im> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE6340D@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE6340D@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Trey Drake Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:55:42 -0500 To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnXe+ofa2UGXZRh7HDJctjlzXx/1LFEia4ZM5SY0m8LB4UKxv0acLR86ti6ikyqWOQvO1X+ Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf\(Michael\)" , "scim@ietf.org" , Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:55:48 -0000 Makes sense to me - remove it. On Mar 15, 2012, at 7:49 PM, "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" wrote: > I think this is all good discussion and I think in due time we will have > to come up with decisions on both fronts (what authorization we need in > place, and what mechanism, if any needs to be mandatory to implement). > However, I don't think we need to decide on what the answer is right > now. >=20 > Going back to the charter discussion, I like Peter's suggestion of > removing the third bullet from the proposed charter. What do others > think? Anyone object? >=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Morteza >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:25 PM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 >=20 > On 3/15/12 4:02 PM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: >> I think I did not make myself understood well. >> My point is: "is this mandatory-to-implement" part affecting the way > we end up defining the core SCIM features? As in "this authorization > mechanism is specified as being integral part of SCIM"? >>=20 >> Of course there is no harm in specifying it MUST work WITH OAuth 2.0. >>=20 >> It looks like we have some that want to mandate-to-implement an > authorization mechanism (probably OAuth 2.0), others that don't, and > some (myself at least) that want to be careful about how we may mandate > it, if we mandate it. >>=20 >> We'll sort it out eventually I'm sure. >=20 > Well, Stephen seemed to think you'd need authorization to determine if a > given entity was allowed to perform a given operation. For example, who > is authorized to move UserA from Domain1 to Domain2? So yes, let's > explore whether we need authorization first, then have a discussion > about whether we need an MTI mechanism for that function. >=20 > Peter >=20 > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 15 18:20:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D0B21F85EE for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gsaW81OZb1OY for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715B521F85EC for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2G1JU6X009970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:19:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.110]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2G1JTKm028593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:19:30 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.110]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:19:29 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Peter Saint-Andre Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:19:28 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v4 Thread-Index: Ac0DAuQSwDXboD0VS06aeAYi61X+ugAD4DUg Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F54BDA5@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE62EFE@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F61BFBF.7090408@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54D7@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EA5B.70207@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D54EF@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F61EF05.2050608@cs.tcd.ie> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D5514@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3148CB4F-6BFD-44CE-97E6-58DD8FF16CF6@unboundid.com> <20120315142531.0795721F85D3@ietfa.amsl.com> <048101cd02bb$630033f0$29009bd0$@com> <9BBAC6BD-7BEF-4DEC-AF12-C5626820FE85@unboundid.com> <4F624D24.8000505@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D589B@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F626503.4020503@stpeter.im> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F3D58B2@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F627A5E.20003@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F627A5E.20003@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v4 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 01:20:14 -0000 Tm8gZG91YnQgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgbmVlZHMgc29ydGVkIG91dC4NCk1pY2hhZWwNCg0KLS0t LS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlIFttYWlsdG86 c3RwZXRlckBzdHBldGVyLmltXSANClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAxNSwgMjAxMiA3OjI1 IFBNDQpUbzogQnJlbm5lciwgTWljaGFlbCBSYWxmIChNaWNoYWVsKQ0KQ2M6IHNjaW1AaWV0Zi5v cmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbc2NpbV0gRHJhZnQgY2hhcnRlciAtIHY0DQoNCk9uIDMvMTUvMTIg NDowMiBQTSwgQnJlbm5lciwgTWljaGFlbCBSYWxmIChNaWNoYWVsKSB3cm90ZToNCj4gSSB0aGlu ayBJIGRpZCBub3QgbWFrZSBteXNlbGYgdW5kZXJzdG9vZCB3ZWxsLg0KPiBNeSBwb2ludCBpczog ImlzIHRoaXMgbWFuZGF0b3J5LXRvLWltcGxlbWVudCIgcGFydCBhZmZlY3RpbmcgdGhlIHdheSB3 ZSBlbmQgdXAgZGVmaW5pbmcgdGhlIGNvcmUgU0NJTSBmZWF0dXJlcz8gQXMgaW4gInRoaXMgYXV0 aG9yaXphdGlvbiBtZWNoYW5pc20gaXMgc3BlY2lmaWVkIGFzIGJlaW5nIGludGVncmFsIHBhcnQg b2YgU0NJTSI/DQo+IA0KPiBPZiBjb3Vyc2UgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gaGFybSBpbiBzcGVjaWZ5aW5n IGl0IE1VU1Qgd29yayBXSVRIIE9BdXRoIDIuMC4NCj4gDQo+IEl0IGxvb2tzIGxpa2Ugd2UgaGF2 ZSBzb21lIHRoYXQgd2FudCB0byBtYW5kYXRlLXRvLWltcGxlbWVudCBhbiBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9u IG1lY2hhbmlzbSAocHJvYmFibHkgT0F1dGggMi4wKSwgb3RoZXJzIHRoYXQgZG9uJ3QsIGFuZCBz b21lIChteXNlbGYgYXQgbGVhc3QpIHRoYXQgd2FudCB0byBiZSBjYXJlZnVsIGFib3V0IGhvdyB3 ZSBtYXkgbWFuZGF0ZSBpdCwgaWYgd2UgbWFuZGF0ZSBpdC4NCj4gDQo+IFdlJ2xsIHNvcnQgaXQg b3V0IGV2ZW50dWFsbHkgSSdtIHN1cmUuDQoNCldlbGwsIFN0ZXBoZW4gc2VlbWVkIHRvIHRoaW5r IHlvdSdkIG5lZWQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiB0byBkZXRlcm1pbmUgaWYgYQ0KZ2l2ZW4gZW50aXR5 IHdhcyBhbGxvd2VkIHRvIHBlcmZvcm0gYSBnaXZlbiBvcGVyYXRpb24uIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCB3 aG8NCmlzIGF1dGhvcml6ZWQgdG8gbW92ZSBVc2VyQSBmcm9tIERvbWFpbjEgdG8gRG9tYWluMj8g U28geWVzLCBsZXQncw0KZXhwbG9yZSB3aGV0aGVyIHdlIG5lZWQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBmaXJz dCwgdGhlbiBoYXZlIGEgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbg0KYWJvdXQgd2hldGhlciB3ZSBuZWVkIGFuIE1USSBt ZWNoYW5pc20gZm9yIHRoYXQgZnVuY3Rpb24uDQoNClBldGVyDQoNCi0tIA0KUGV0ZXIgU2FpbnQt QW5kcmUNCmh0dHBzOi8vc3RwZXRlci5pbS8NCg0KDQo= From lear@cisco.com Fri Mar 16 00:58:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C148821F876F for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:58:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIOav98KfbWu for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC67821F85B8 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:58:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=1996; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331884681; x=1333094281; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject; bh=8x3V+tnOlHWlZRFdyIutNqd+uE+uSxMbcNJa5LSJXSs=; b=fLTWLu5ESuldta92khmeio4LNcVg0rKRZU1f3yAKzo0OW1CGTj9yNgzH fs4GiVs+34dYqgDGm8j75gfYUOURK1nWY6BSjBw9N7n6eP91jcKJ2nRFP i4SlWamalAFaBtEJ28pRiZ4BaSuEe1cNCrM4my+sOXkAAmw0T+GFvQTEX w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAN7xYk+Q/khM/2dsb2JhbABDhT2wdIEHggAFHQEQVR8BHRYLAgsDAgECAT8MDQgBAR6FJgeCKRKZSoEnjQSReo9jgRYElWKOP4Fogmc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,597,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="68619616" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2012 07:57:59 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com [10.55.82.125]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2G7vxSk018519 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 07:57:59 GMT Message-ID: <4F62F287.2000809@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:57:59 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080608030905030802080301" Subject: [scim] charter and odds and ends X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 07:58:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080608030905030802080301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, Based on discussion I am in the process of updating the draft charter (based on -4) as follows: * Inserting some wording around consideration of the multipoint use case that Phil has raised. * Removal of the one out-of-scope line as suggested by Peter & Morteza. * Re-insertion of the simplecloud.info URL for reference. * Updating of draft names based on what has been posted Two points: 1. I don't actually see the LDAP mapping document anywhere. Is there one? How critical is this to have? 2. There exists a usage scenarios document. Is that also something we want to adopt? Eliot --------------080608030905030802080301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone,

Based on discussion I am in the process of updating the draft charter (based on -4) as follows:
  • Inserting some wording around consideration of the multipoint use case that Phil has raised.
  • Removal of the one out-of-scope line as suggested by Peter & Morteza.
  • Re-insertion of the simplecloud.info URL for reference.
  • Updating of draft names based on what has been posted


Two points:

  1. I don't actually see the LDAP mapping document anywhere.  Is there one?  How critical is this to have?
  2. There exists a usage scenarios document.  Is that also something we want to adopt?

Eliot

--------------080608030905030802080301-- From lear@cisco.com Fri Mar 16 01:06:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE80721F8711 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 01:06:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aSgQiDn1VnkT for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 01:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A874A21F86FD for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 01:06:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=1123; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331885196; x=1333094796; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=VPM8+MPnlD2GtX6ifLVCoaRi1UKNIQ2TCCpRKzzzXdw=; b=A1VDjzh51NROr+r/UGbN/oVPRd7DfHgBhV4qmg0Cj/rTMZy00YmQpP79 lAZsPf6vF6vR/OdW6XV52XT6ODCIWnRow0G4GXEQSxykiL1eA1r3QUS8e vPECQsDvFyTJ4iuV/vxKkeHhGqeE6tHz19nKrTTjwjsEyj4e6rN+8HJuE 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAMnzYk+Q/khM/2dsb2JhbABDhT2wdIEHgiIBEA8BPwYBNQIFFgsCCwMCAQIBWAEHAQEeh2iac40EkXqBL4woggyBFgSVYo4/gWiCZw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,597,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="132495502" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2012 08:06:34 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-82-125.cisco.com [10.55.82.125]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2G86YEK020422; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:06:34 GMT Message-ID: <4F62F489.4070805@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:06:33 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: secretariat@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Wanda Lo , Peter Saint-Andre , "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: [scim] Agenda for the SCIM BoF X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:06:36 -0000 Dear Secretariat, Please accept as the agenda for the SCIM BoF the following draft agenda. Thanks, On behalf of my co-chair Steve Bellovin, Eliot Lear 9:00 – 9:02 I Agenda Bashing 9:02 – 9:15 II Introduction by the chairs, and a description of the BoF process, including potential outcomes 9:15 – 9:40 III Description of the pre-provisioning problem, why this is important, and relation to existing work (Morteza Ansari) 9:40 – 10:20 IV Overview of SCIM documents (Trey Drake) 10:20 - 10:35 V Multipoint Provisioning (Phil Hunt) 10:35 – 11:00 VI Discussion (Chairs introduce the questions below) 11:00 – 11:05 VII Questions from the Chair (chairs) A. Do we agree there is a problem? B. Is SCIM the right starting point? C. Is this something the IETF should do? D. Do we have volunteers to (1) edit/author the drafts? (2) review the drafts? 11:05 – 11:25 VIII Introduction of the charter and discussion (chairs) 11:25 – 11:30 IX Should we have a WG? (A hum) (Chairs/AD) From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Mar 16 08:28:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2619B21F85A3 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.64 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.64 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dmrS3uO52Va3 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6896021F85A1 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (unknown [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C8D440058 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:41:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F635C37.1010905@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:28:55 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" References: <20120315184538.26489.57916.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F624846.2050400@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F624846.2050400@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [scim] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-scim-api-00.txt X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:28:58 -0000 It seems that the announcement messages contained the wrong URLs. The correct URLs are: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-scim-api-00.txt and: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-scim-core-schema-00.txt Sorry about the confusion! Peter On 3/15/12 1:51 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > FYI. Thanks to Trey for sending these to me so quickly. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-scim-api-00.txt > Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:45:38 -0700 > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : Simple Cloud Identity Management: Protocol 1.0 > Author(s) : C. Mortimore, et al > Filename : draft-scim-api > Pages : 45 > Date : March 15, 2012 > > The Simple Cloud Identity Management (SCIM) specification is designed > to make managing user identity in cloud based applications and > services easier. The specification suite seeks to build upon > experience with existing schemas and deployments, placing specific > emphasis on simplicity of development and integration, while applying > existing authentication, authorization, and privacy models. It's > intent is to reduce the cost and complexity of user management > operations by providing a common user schema and extension model, as > well as binding documents to provide patterns for exchanging this > schema using standard protocols. In essence, make it fast, cheap, > and easy to move users in to, out of, and around the cloud. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-scim-api > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From huilan.lu@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Mar 16 11:12:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A41721F8638 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:12:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tE-ZY1e9Taji for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [135.245.0.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F3521F8636 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail2.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2GIC0e6022084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:12:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.111]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2GIC0Us005262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:12:00 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSB3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.136]) by USNAVSXCHHUB02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.111]) with mapi; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:12:00 -0500 From: "Lu, Hui-Lan (Huilan)" To: "'Eliot Lear'" , "scim@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:11:59 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] charter and odds and ends Thread-Index: Ac0DSoYF8sNSglANRvShf5//4bv/7wAVOCsw Message-ID: <0E96A74B7DFCF844A9BE2A0BBE2C425F098C18B87D@USNAVSXCHMBSB3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <4F62F287.2000809@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F62F287.2000809@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0E96A74B7DFCF844A9BE2A0BBE2C425F098C18B87DUSNAVSXCHMBSB_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.35 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Subject: Re: [scim] charter and odds and ends X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org 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urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD03A0.BE0D24EC" Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:15:17 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE636B9@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0E96A74B7DFCF844A9BE2A0BBE2C425F098C18B87D@USNAVSXCHMBSB3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] charter and odds and ends Thread-Index: Ac0DSoYF8sNSglANRvShf5//4bv/7wAVOCswAABO/DA= References: <4F62F287.2000809@cisco.com> <0E96A74B7DFCF844A9BE2A0BBE2C425F098C18B87D@USNAVSXCHMBSB3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Lu, Hui-Lan (Huilan)" , "Eliot Lear" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Mar 2012 18:15:18.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE4228F0:01CD03A0] Subject: Re: [scim] charter and odds and ends X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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------_=_NextPart_001_01CD03A0.BE0D24EC-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Fri Mar 16 11:40:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EB721E8034 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:40:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.36 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.36 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.238, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mupfNINiRp0p for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9648921F85D4 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2GIe0DL024065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:40:01 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2GIe073014846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:40:00 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2GIdxw4005592; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:39:59 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (/24.87.212.4) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:39:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_63F410E5-7D79-4CB7-83C2-E269EAF8C7DD" From: Phil Hunt In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE636B9@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:39:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199E066B-BA2A-4603-9D2E-B22E751EA381@oracle.com> References: <4F62F287.2000809@cisco.com> <0E96A74B7DFCF844A9BE2A0BBE2C425F098C18B87D@USNAVSXCHMBSB3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEE636B9@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F638901.00B6,ss=1,re=-2.300,fgs=0 Cc: scim@ietf.org, Eliot Lear , "Lu, Hui-Lan \(Huilan\)" Subject: Re: [scim] charter and odds and ends X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:40:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_63F410E5-7D79-4CB7-83C2-E269EAF8C7DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +1 I think having a usecase document as a WG working draft document would = be very useful to keep referring to. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com On 2012-03-16, at 11:15 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > Yes, the current use case document on the SCIM 1.0 web page is = definitely out of date and would require update if we want to publish = it. > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > Morteza > =20 > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Lu, Hui-Lan (Huilan) > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:12 AM > To: 'Eliot Lear'; scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] charter and odds and ends > =20 > +1 for the use case document, which I found useful. Going forward, it = would be desirable to augment it to capture important requirements too. > =20 > Huilan Lu > =20 > From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Eliot Lear > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 3:58 AM > To: scim@ietf.org > Subject: [scim] charter and odds and ends > =20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > Based on discussion I am in the process of updating the draft charter = (based on -4) as follows: > Inserting some wording around consideration of the multipoint use case = that Phil has raised. > Removal of the one out-of-scope line as suggested by Peter & Morteza. > Re-insertion of the simplecloud.info URL for reference. > Updating of draft names based on what has been posted >=20 > Two points: >=20 > I don't actually see the LDAP mapping document anywhere. Is there = one? How critical is this to have? > There exists a usage scenarios document. Is that also something we = want to adopt? > Eliot >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_63F410E5-7D79-4CB7-83C2-E269EAF8C7DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On 2012-03-16, at 11:15 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) = wrote:

Yes, the current use = case document on the SCIM 1.0 web page is definitely out of date and = would require update if we want to publish = it.
 
Cheers,
 
From: scim-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lu, Hui-Lan = (Huilan)
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 = 11:12 AM
To: 'Eliot Lear'; scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] charter and odds = and ends
+1 for the use case document, which I found useful. = Going forward, it would be desirable to augment it to capture important = requirements too.
 
Huilan = Lu
 
 scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 3:58 = AM
To: scim@ietf.org
Subject: [scim] charter and odds and = ends
Hi = everyone,

Based on discussion I am in the process of updating the = draft charter (based on -4) as follows:
  • Inserting some wording around = consideration of the multipoint use case that Phil has = raised.
  • Removal of = the one out-of-scope line as suggested by Peter & = Morteza.

  • Two points:

    1. I don't actually see the LDAP mapping = document anywhere.  Is there one?  How critical is this to = have?
    2. There = exists a usage scenarios document.  Is that also something we want = to adopt?

    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/scim


= = --Apple-Mail=_63F410E5-7D79-4CB7-83C2-E269EAF8C7DD-- From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Mar 16 12:05:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4007B21E8018 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:05:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.909, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wtAJCW8bJmxF for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0300521E8013 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2GJ5XH1028749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:05:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.110]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2GJ5XDJ029467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:05:33 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.110]) with mapi; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:05:32 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Eliot Lear , "scim@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:05:31 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] charter and odds and ends Thread-Index: Ac0DSpCbEwDdtzMORZC5Zd2CIxWmJwAW+JiA Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F54C162@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: 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c2NlbmFyaW9zIGRvY3VtZW50LiZuYnNwOyBJcyB0aGF0IGFsc28gc29tZXRoaW5nIHdlIHdhbnQg dG8gYWRvcHQ/PG86cD48L286cD48L2xpPjwvb2w+PHA+RWxpb3Q8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD48L2Rp dj48L2JvZHk+PC9odG1sPg== --_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F54C162USNAVSXCHMBSA_-- From trey.drake@unboundid.com Mon Mar 19 12:13:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C89721F8569 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R6Ycchz7hxT3 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com 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[24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n7sm10686376oeh.4.2012.03.19.12.13.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:13:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Trey Drake Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3440B602-6176-47FC-85BB-BE4277279D4C"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:13:38 -0500 Message-Id: To: "scim@ietf.org Identity Management" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlakoK//pm9kgofe6Kg2ehYHTVFPlcEpz4LkG5dWRRtnlNsCjI9EDRbJDpBOXD24zichJNO Subject: [scim] XML schema documents X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:13:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3440B602-6176-47FC-85BB-BE4277279D4C Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_156141A8-5364-410D-B79E-07C6DA6D9FCF" --Apple-Mail=_156141A8-5364-410D-B79E-07C6DA6D9FCF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I suggest adding the attached XML schema (xsd) to the list of documents = to be considered. The XML schema documents specify: - SCIM protocol messages (payload request/response) wrappers - Core user and group representations - Enterprise user extension=20 Both documents are part of the pre-existing SCIM work and went a long = way towards interoperability and quick implementation. For the = uninitiated, XML schema defines the concrete rules and means by which an = XML documented is represented thus reducing interop issues resulting = from subtle though potential incompatible differences when parsing XML. Thanks, Trey --Apple-Mail=_156141A8-5364-410D-B79E-07C6DA6D9FCF Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=scim-core.xsd Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="scim-core.xsd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail=_156141A8-5364-410D-B79E-07C6DA6D9FCF Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=scim-enterprise.xsd Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="scim-enterprise.xsd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail=_156141A8-5364-410D-B79E-07C6DA6D9FCF-- --Apple-Mail=_3440B602-6176-47FC-85BB-BE4277279D4C Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIM9jCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX 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X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Draft charter - v5 Thread-Index: Ac0H/9OnJCV02DwPTPeuALgWGrIiSg== From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2012 08:00:25.0120 (UTC) FILETIME=[D68D8200:01CD0801] Subject: [scim] Draft charter - v5 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:00:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0801.D66A285F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01CD0801.D66A285F" ------_=_NextPart_002_01CD0801.D66A285F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The differences between this and v4 are: =20 -removal of the third bullet from the out of scope section -update of initial drafts based on Trey's submission -added use case draft to the list of docs =20 Please send any additional comments/feedback. =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 =20 *** charter4.txt 2012-03-14 20:03:09.000000000 -0700 --- charter5.txt 2012-03-22 00:53:41.000000000 -0700 *************** *** 47,54 **** identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. The group will use, as starting points, the following drafts in the following ways: =20 ! draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the schema specification, ! draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol specification, draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. =20 --- 47,55 ---- identities as part of the work adopted by the working group. The group will use, as starting points, the following drafts in the following ways: =20 ! draft-scim-use-cases-00 as the initial use cases for SCIM, ! draft-scim-core-schema-00 as the schema specification, ! draft-scim-api-00 as the protocol specification, draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. =20 *************** *** 69,78 **** The group considers the following out of scope for this group: Defining new authentication schemes Defining new policy/authorization schemes - Defining how SCIM implementations define and implement authorization =20 Milestones =20 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft --- 70,79 ---- The group considers the following out of scope for this group: Defining new authentication schemes Defining new policy/authorization schemes =20 Milestones =20 + 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM use cases 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM core schema 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface draft 5/2012 Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft =20 ------_=_NextPart_002_01CD0801.D66A285F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The = differences between this and v4 are:

 

-removal of = the third bullet from the out of scope section

-update of initial drafts based on Trey’s = submission

-added use case draft to = the list of docs

 

Please send = any additional comments/feedback.

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

 

*** = charter4.txt          &= nbsp;    2012-03-14 20:03:09.000000000 = -0700

--- charter5.txt  = 2012-03-22 00:53:41.000000000 -0700

***************

*** = 47,54 ****

  identities as part = of the work adopted by the working group.  The = group

  will use, as starting = points, the following drafts in the following ways:

 

!      = draft-XXX-scim-schema-00 as the schema specification,

!      = draft-XXX-scim-protocol-definition-00 as the protocol = specification,

       = draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, = and

      =  draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = LDAP.

 

--- 47,55 ----

  identities as part of the work adopted by the = working group.  The group

  = will use, as starting points, the following drafts in the following = ways:

 

!      = draft-scim-use-cases-00 as the initial use cases for = SCIM,

!      = draft-scim-core-schema-00 as the schema specification,

!      draft-scim-api-00 as = the protocol specification,

       = draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, = and

       = draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = LDAP.

 

***************

*** = 69,78 ****

  The group considers = the following out of scope for this group:

       Defining new = authentication schemes

       Defining new = policy/authorization schemes

-      Defining how SCIM = implementations define and implement authorization

 

  Milestones

 

  5/2012    Initial adoption = of SCIM core schema

  = 5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM restful interface = draft

  5/2012    = Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings draft

--- 70,79 ----

  The group considers the following out of scope = for this group:

       Defining new = authentication schemes

       Defining new = policy/authorization schemes

  =

  Milestones

 

+ = 5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM use = cases

  5/2012    = Initial adoption of SCIM core schema

  5/2012    Initial adoption of = SCIM restful interface draft

  = 5/2012    Initial adoption of SCIM SAML bindings = draft

 

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bmcgZHJhZnQKOS8yMDEyICAgIFdHTEMgU0NJTSBjb3JlIHNjaGVtYQo5LzIwMTIgICAgV0dMQyBT Q0lNIHJlc3RmdWwgaW50ZXJmYWNlCjkvMjAxMiAgICBXR0xDIFNDSU0gU0FNTCBiaW5kaW5ncwo5 LzIwMTIgICAgV0dMQyBTQ0lNIExEQVAgbWFwcGluZwozLzIwMTMgICAgUmUtY2hhcnRlciBkaXNj dXNzaW9uCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0801.D66A285F-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 22 08:54:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87ECA21F8527 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:54:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.694 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.694 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XihgzNDAe1SM for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D884A21F8528 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-64-101-72-171.cisco.com (unknown [64.101.72.171]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 370E64005B; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:06:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F6B4B19.5090508@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:54:01 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEEE4754@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEEE4754@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v5 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:54:03 -0000 On 3/22/12 2:00 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to > SAML, and > > draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to > LDAP. Do we have a strong feeling that these need to be in scope for now? It seems to me that it would be productive for the working group (if formed) to finish the core work first, then recharter to work on the mappings/bindings to LDAP and SAML. It's easy enough for a working group to recharter, so I'd recommend keeping these deliverables off the charter for now. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From moransar@cisco.com Thu Mar 22 12:38:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27D421F85AF for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P0why4NeNW3F for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58EE21F8547 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=1552; q=dns/txt; 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Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:38:27 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:38:26 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEF5DE67@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F6B4B19.5090508@stpeter.im> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [scim] Draft charter - v5 Thread-Index: Ac0IRADztjZ1/x0fR6SkIP8CAuQXsAAHwh/A References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEEE4754@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F6B4B19.5090508@stpeter.im> From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: "Peter Saint-Andre" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2012 19:38:27.0427 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A5A6330:01CD0863] Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v5 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:38:28 -0000 SSBkaWQgcHV0IHRleHQgaW4gdGhlIGJvZHkgb2YgdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgcG9pbnRpbmcgb3V0IGNv cmUgc3BlY3MgaGF2ZSBoaWdoZXIgcHJpb3JpdHkgYW5kIHdpbGwgYmUgdGhlIGluaXRpYWwgZm9j dXMgb2YgdGhlIGdyb3VwLCBidXQgSSBhbSBwZXJzb25hbGx5IE9LIHdpdGggcmVtb3ZpbmcgdGhl c2UgYW5kIGFkZGluZyB0aGVtIHRvIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIGF0IGEgbGF0ZXIgZGF0ZS4NCg0KVGhv dWdodHMgZnJvbSBvdGhlcnMgaW4gdGhlIGdyb3VwPw0KDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1vcnRlemENCg0K LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlIFttYWls dG86c3RwZXRlckBzdHBldGVyLmltXSANClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAyMiwgMjAxMiA4 OjU0IEFNDQpUbzogTW9ydGV6YSBBbnNhcmkgKG1vcmFuc2FyKQ0KQ2M6IHNjaW1AaWV0Zi5vcmcN ClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbc2NpbV0gRHJhZnQgY2hhcnRlciAtIHY1DQoNCk9uIDMvMjIvMTIgMjow MCBBTSwgTW9ydGV6YSBBbnNhcmkgKG1vcmFuc2FyKSB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBkcmFmdC1YWFgtc2Np bS1zYW1sLWJpbmRpbmctMDAgZm9yIGJpbmRpbmcgdGhlIFNDSU0gc2NoZW1hIHRvIFNBTUwsIA0K PiBhbmQNCj4gDQo+IGRyYWZ0LVhYWC1zY2ltLWxkYXAtYmluZGluZy0wMCBmb3IgYmluZGluZyB0 aGUgU0NJTSBzY2hlbWEgdG8gTERBUC4NCg0KRG8gd2UgaGF2ZSBhIHN0cm9uZyBmZWVsaW5nIHRo YXQgdGhlc2UgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBpbiBzY29wZSBmb3Igbm93PyBJdCBzZWVtcyB0byBtZSB0aGF0 IGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHByb2R1Y3RpdmUgZm9yIHRoZSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIChpZg0KZm9ybWVk KSB0byBmaW5pc2ggdGhlIGNvcmUgd29yayBmaXJzdCwgdGhlbiByZWNoYXJ0ZXIgdG8gd29yayBv biB0aGUgbWFwcGluZ3MvYmluZGluZ3MgdG8gTERBUCBhbmQgU0FNTC4gSXQncyBlYXN5IGVub3Vn aCBmb3IgYSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIHRvIHJlY2hhcnRlciwgc28gSSdkIHJlY29tbWVuZCBrZWVw aW5nIHRoZXNlIGRlbGl2ZXJhYmxlcyBvZmYgdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgZm9yIG5vdy4NCg0KUGV0ZXIN Cg0KLS0NClBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlDQpodHRwczovL3N0cGV0ZXIuaW0vDQoNCg0K From trey.drake@unboundid.com Thu Mar 22 14:10:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72BF21F84CE for ; 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[24.155.184.100]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f2sm4581331oef.6.2012.03.22.14.10.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AAEE5A7C-5EC3-4C03-A2EC-248C8438B122"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Trey Drake In-Reply-To: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEF5DE67@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:10:44 -0500 Message-Id: <77C83568-04A0-4595-A97E-4C48A6514490@unboundid.com> References: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEEE4754@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> <4F6B4B19.5090508@stpeter.im> <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEF5DE67@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk5YuUfH9bQwRJPrjeC67gv0Zp/mmh1zamTkDsh2v+Me6UCAxbB4v/Msmk3aAfV6gY+7abt Cc: scim@ietf.org, Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v5 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:10:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AAEE5A7C-5EC3-4C03-A2EC-248C8438B122 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Agreed. The mapping/binding specifications are not yet in good shape. On Mar 22, 2012, at 2:38 PM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: > I did put text in the body of the charter pointing out core specs have = higher priority and will be the initial focus of the group, but I am = personally OK with removing these and adding them to the charter at a = later date. >=20 > Thoughts from others in the group? >=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Morteza >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Saint-Andre [mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:54 AM > To: Morteza Ansari (moransar) > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Draft charter - v5 >=20 > On 3/22/12 2:00 AM, Morteza Ansari (moransar) wrote: >=20 >> draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML,=20= >> and >>=20 >> draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. >=20 > Do we have a strong feeling that these need to be in scope for now? It = seems to me that it would be productive for the working group (if > formed) to finish the core work first, then recharter to work on the = mappings/bindings to LDAP and SAML. It's easy enough for a working group = to recharter, so I'd recommend keeping these deliverables off the = charter for now. >=20 > Peter >=20 > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail=_AAEE5A7C-5EC3-4C03-A2EC-248C8438B122 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIM9jCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX DTE3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVowgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSsw KQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFy 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aN42ODTGnrxXPiTwA/t/POHuuShRj+WiCKCNlOIMnFx3RyC4ukSNCWZTxm8W4jREPmc5xgT0lHnU cVwU7sSWXMXox+T1ctVVZA1kPqyRExu9rBKBSGHLoKTQPI8B3+H4tbNX9Oxj03k2VNCJN8VkVuxm WOehjtCYS3f4T2fUS0LmfWMuAh3sX/OzMh5w+PRuhqeGN2aSIiTn6BzyoVhhxQ/CuramSwMDUWtC j85redSvlRg9EZ0JPXdqO2By+mLwVnBdcVMwP3V9nWyc6LYAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_AAEE5A7C-5EC3-4C03-A2EC-248C8438B122-- From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 27 04:34:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49EF321F899E for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wnu1yI-LT-BT for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC2E21E8169 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:34:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=231; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332848076; x=1334057676; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=QVL0r5nxnXxS6MwidosgBpuZSAUI+tdabjt2yRrBntk=; b=BYvl1RHbiytgWG7wAT+ibI4AgNxyxytKqtDhSbWpCOgQ3K/ihI6OOvL6 aK1lgiCktiwIl3kB0hzolJ5lxgbjmxjQV0Z5nyQ2cVqc0H6v00NGFl3vR /4xtjq71Zax1doppzy1pC6sS+Ec1rfIis+fxPIcW6+U0cP4Wnvu2ccSuh s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAIalcU+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABFhUCyfoEHgiIBEFU2AgUWCwILAwIBAgFLDQgBAR6HaJkugSeNCJIHgS+OSIEYBJVhjkWBaIJp X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,656,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="69436331" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Mar 2012 11:34:29 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4661.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4661.cisco.com [10.61.82.52]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2RBYThF031353 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:34:29 GMT Message-ID: <4F71A5CA.3050902@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:34:34 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120313 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [scim] Scribe needed for Thursday X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:34:37 -0000 Hi everyone, Our process requires that someone take notes during the meeting. The chairs need a volunteer for this, and it helps to have one in advance. Please, someone who is not presenting, volunteer! Thanks, Eliot From lear@cisco.com Tue Mar 27 04:39:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79CE21F899C for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:39:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wpcLC7LRN1id for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B5821F875C for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:39:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=528; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332848379; x=1334057979; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WM6+jCpe7e/hl3uJrSmDRJ18yjkMcpwimXACes2QAEM=; b=iLd1sJNib85E99KJ4tozqGlyCr6lFdgbzLmY/BZzD9P+Z/+MzNwr8rKN /sqI1jMXewFp7fLPJHzE7gg9AXA+9BcH+bv9mJRXs0j4IArQ2Mpg2e7PY 3f/rCroak8tjwEvGH3qi4TI3cj1w3pUSCnZyuKTj6aIBfQkweNyQu0rPr s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,656,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="69436860" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Mar 2012 11:39:38 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4661.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4661.cisco.com [10.61.82.52]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2RBdbSg008927; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:39:37 GMT Message-ID: <4F71A6FE.2060206@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:39:42 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120313 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eliot Lear References: <4F71A5CA.3050902@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F71A5CA.3050902@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty Subject: Re: [scim] Scribe needed for Thursday X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:39:41 -0000 We have a winner. EVERYONE: Please thank Kathleen Moriarty for having volunteered! Eliot On 3/27/12 1:34 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Our process requires that someone take notes during the meeting. The > chairs need a volunteer for this, and it helps to have one in advance. > Please, someone who is not presenting, volunteer! > > Thanks, > > Eliot > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > From phil.hunt@oracle.com Tue Mar 27 10:18:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A0721F8860 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.35 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.35 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.249, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vuOYpwIoN5En for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C94B21F885F for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2RHID0N005025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:18:14 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2RHICpq020406 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:18:13 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2RHICKd011162 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:18:12 -0500 Received: from [10.0.1.2] (/213.41.80.49) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:18:12 -0700 From: Phil Hunt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:18:07 +0200 Message-Id: <40E55799-544E-4CA3-BD2F-74A287FA83E3@oracle.com> To: scim@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4F71F656.0028,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Subject: [scim] Targeting draft for BoF Meeting X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:18:15 -0000 I have posted an initial draft of "targeting" as an extension to SCIM in = preparation for the BoF on Thursday. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-scim-targeting/ Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com From moransar@cisco.com Tue Mar 27 18:05:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E6721E8049 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:05:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G41sN352PtvC for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE48821E801C for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:05:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=moransar@cisco.com; l=11090; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332896731; x=1334106331; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=KCa+Dr/DlHSWVVkUAtekecRVkf30jf5Qj3G4EQCsdow=; b=D0n2zX8IiOqkBSGXhqFatHaHvlOJ2FP8EPsSThzTpNyK9ZLeU1NGFZG6 E0UofXFhobGQFQUxCXE1IN36y20rlFfRTwnl4GXCaypQWMblH5FfadiHM N0e3pBWBSOEqaQA+oLEhAxsmj7pOtvzuYKenjWpbhAPjV+y7PhaSOZByy Q=; X-Files: charter6.txt : 4246 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAJ9jck+tJV2c/2dsb2JhbAA7AQmCRrYigQeCCwEEAQEBDwEJEQM8Ah0BKgIEBRMHASUxAQQRAggBGYdoC5l9gSefBopbAQiCa4JNYwSIWIYQgSKUHIFogwUggR4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,659,1325462400"; d="txt'?scan'208,217";a="69949107" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 01:05:30 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com [72.163.63.8]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2S15UR1020862 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:05:30 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-313.cisco.com ([72.163.63.28]) by xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:05:29 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C7E.DE2DDCCE" Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: <93C6FB63F046384C86EC8F7F3FFEC7BEFDB848@XMB-RCD-313.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Draft charter - v6 Thread-Index: Ac0MfZC6NPycUL67RuGZtpSbpNWYog== From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 01:05:29.0933 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE57EFD0:01CD0C7E] Subject: [scim] Draft charter - v6 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:05:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C7E.DE2DDCCE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01CD0C7E.DE2DDCCE" ------_=_NextPart_002_01CD0C7E.DE2DDCCE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I removed the references to the SAML & LDAP starting documents per Peter's suggestion. No other comments or suggestions have been made since the last rev. =20 =20 Cheers, Morteza =20 *** charter5.txt 2012-03-22 08:53:41.000000000 +0100 --- charter6.txt 2012-03-28 02:47:40.000000000 +0200 *************** *** 50,57 **** draft-scim-use-cases-00 as the initial use cases for SCIM, draft-scim-core-schema-00 as the schema specification, draft-scim-api-00 as the protocol specification, - draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, and - draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to LDAP. =20 These drafts are based on existing specifications, which together are commonly known as SCIM 1.0. As such, consideration should be given for backward --- 50,55 ---- ------_=_NextPart_002_01CD0C7E.DE2DDCCE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I removed = the references to the SAML & LDAP starting documents per = Peter’s suggestion. No other comments or suggestions have been = made since the last rev.

 

 

Cheers,

Morteza

 

*** = charter5.txt          &= nbsp;    2012-03-22 08:53:41.000000000 = +0100

--- charter6.txt  = 2012-03-28 02:47:40.000000000 +0200

***************

*** = 50,57 ****

       = draft-scim-use-cases-00 as the initial use cases for = SCIM,

       = draft-scim-core-schema-00 as the schema specification,

       draft-scim-api-00 = as the protocol specification,

-      = draft-XXX-scim-saml-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to SAML, = and

-      = draft-XXX-scim-ldap-binding-00 for binding the SCIM schema to = LDAP.

 

  These drafts are based on existing = specifications, which together are commonly

  known as SCIM 1.0.  As such, consideration = should be given for backward

--- = 50,55 ----

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MTMgICAgUmUtY2hhcnRlciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C7E.DE2DDCCE-- From lear@cisco.com Wed Mar 28 07:21:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E8621E81D8 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cyJ8SJ7NR3xF for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929C521E805F for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:21:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; 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<4F731E7F.8070302@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:21:51 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120313 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [scim] all materials uploaded for tomorrow's BoF X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:21:54 -0000 You can access them at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials.html#wg-scim. Eliot From lear@cisco.com Wed Mar 28 15:06:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E321521F8596 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.923, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_GIF_ATTACH=1.42, TVD_FW_GRAPHIC_NAME_MID=0.543, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CakgO-OJ+tEx for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25C521F8575 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:06:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=6470; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332972392; x=1334181992; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject; bh=xmndssy91yYOVA+8DsrrZpOzJ5FOqCzfvMLXMp7EGhU=; b=hO/5R6EsKtXC8KiW8HJd9NtX0nQ6JMwBGzcYMY/+dE1buViIGEjrHXQn DupuaQq/P+nmbZ5UrzsoJAUtpiMs6iZqUYD+5w0K9jUPdtct+eJ+aQWjx 3lq2gfkWtBnS/APjC/Mu98og3k4XVIfgJz3Ba+hCSegVJCEXA4SLbxvw8 8=; X-Files: footer.gif : 163 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlAGABqKc0+Q/khM/2dsb2JhbAArEQYDhUCqbIFjhl+BB4IVAQwBEDIPAhI5AQIBCwQHBQMDAgQHAwIBAgEFAQ4gCwUHDQUBAgEBAhyHaAspmXqBJ40IKYNZjhuKbxGCaQeCCoEYBJAKAYVWjkWBaIIgSYFU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,665,1325462400"; d="gif'147?scan'147,208,217,147";a="69590904" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 22:06:30 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-98-52.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-98-52.cisco.com [10.61.98.52]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SM6U6b007102 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:06:30 GMT Message-ID: <4F738B65.5000209@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:06:29 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120313 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "scim@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010906050702050903040204" Subject: [scim] webex information for remote participants X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:06:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010906050702050903040204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topic: SCIM Thu 29 Mar 2012 Host: Simple Cloud Identity BoF Date and Time: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:00 am, Europe Summer Time (Paris, GMT+02:00) Event number: 648 243 890 Event password: thumeeting ------------------------------------------------------- To join the online event ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Click here to join the online event. Or copy and paste the following link to a browser: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/onstage/g.php?d=648243890&t=a&EA=sandra.murphy%40sparta.com&ET=04d5362c6bc9a33e3b400458c4fa2334&ETR=a3ad002764633274f99fd79c2e4ae132&RT=MiMyMw==&p 2. Click "Join Now". ------------------------------------------------------- To join the teleconference only ------------------------------------------------------- Call-in toll number (US/Canada): +1-408-600-3600 Access code: 648 243 890 ------------------------------------------------------- For assistance ------------------------------------------------------- You can contact Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working Group at: sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media files requires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media files in the meeting, please check whether you have the players installed on your computer by going to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/onstage/systemdiagnosis.php http://www.webex.com IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. --------------010906050702050903040204 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------020600080105070804040209" --------------020600080105070804040209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topic: SCIM Thu 29 Mar 2012
Host: Simple Cloud Identity BoF
Date and Time:
Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:00 am, Europe Summer Time (Paris, GMT+02:00)
Event number: 648 243 890
Event password: thumeeting

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the online event
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Click here to join the online event.
Or copy and paste the following link to a browser:
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/onstage/g.php?d=648243890&t=a&EA=sandra.murphy%40sparta.com&ET=04d5362c6bc9a33e3b400458c4fa2334&ETR=a3ad002764633274f99fd79c2e4ae132&RT=MiMyMw==&p
2. Click "Join Now".


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To join the teleconference only
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Call-in toll number (US/Canada): +1-408-600-3600
Access code: 648 243 890

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For assistance
-------------------------------------------------------
You can contact Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working Group at:
sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org

The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media files requires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media files in the meeting, please check whether you have the players installed on your computer by going to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/onstage/systemdiagnosis.php




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--------------020600080105070804040209 Content-Type: image/gif; name="footer.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: Content-Disposition: inline; filename="footer.gif" R0lGODlhQQITAIAAAEee4QAAACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAABBAhMAAAJ6hI+py+0Po5y02ouz3rz7 D4biSJbmiabqyrbuC8fyTNf2jef6zvf+DwwKh8Si8YhMKpfMpvMJjUqn1Kr1is1qt9yu9wsO i8fksvmMTqvX7Lb7DY/L5/S6/Y7P6/f8vv8PGCg4SFhoeIiYqLjI2Oj4CBkpOUlZaXmZVQAA Ow== --------------020600080105070804040209-- --------------010906050702050903040204-- From ggolovinsky@qualys.com Thu Mar 29 02:19:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C2E21F8A03 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:19:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.675 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.675 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.301, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kNaKDxZZ54i for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f51.google.com (mail-qa0-f51.google.com [209.85.216.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9280521F88D8 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qaea16 with SMTP id a16so186517qae.10 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=from:mime-version:x-mailer:thread-index:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=dCrw879yuel+QPkR9JbtHOtP0REVkW2kWIC//vtaFqE=; b=EzRwE2CjDpIpeb69wxPOtT0ZMLq43vH0PTG1Q5JH5Vd4+99C3O1yGBT8AdBB5HHmhx VqfvgbAleAKpE4PS9EpLB9PCH73+wquF7ZaLo4aXM6wH26Eg/pfW0+H/qsre8wzE1nkQ V+/POshkFpFBWNWnm14RdjSsB42QU0cReGYxkQXddi0b6o/nDMC1rreGhQJRLxt7DmPA FoYJzatkU4/ME+otlzeP+9g08XcEHe9JFLQQqevGF8GV3BXSKmrFPYNPPPCx66dTyQGF 46xOij79vrRgS71uQ+R5+oq9w4ZcOf2jHaOmzvPcPa70CIYy/zvmR/vMZdIQLt4gpcfl dQXQ== Received: by 10.229.78.135 with SMTP id l7mr12588907qck.113.1333012766179; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:19:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Gene Golovinsky MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 thread-index: Ac0NjI5a6EpyiUgkSuOkzGABI94mMw== Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:19:31 -0700 Message-ID: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> To: scim@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002354332aca68c2b904bc5e38b3 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlsLhgASx/CKhR4Up/69o8d316Lv231Lm9q7DfV1970JVmP/7aG24uqFWqJH9qYqMUog+6T Subject: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:19:38 -0000 --002354332aca68c2b904bc5e38b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cloud definition Just following up on Dan=92s request to outsource the definition of The Clo= ud to other orgs. NIST has done a pretty decent job of it: *http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-145/SP800-145.pdf* IMHO it is reasonably clear and accepted by many as an operating basis. Cheers. --Gene --002354332aca68c2b904bc5e38b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cloud definition

Just following u= p on Dan=92s request to outsource the definition of The Cloud to other orgs= .

NIST has done a = pretty decent job of it:

http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpu= bs/800-145/SP800-145.pdf<= span lang=3D"en-us">

IMHO it is reaso= nably clear and accepted by many as an operating basis.

Cheers.

--Gene

--002354332aca68c2b904bc5e38b3-- From phil.hunt@oracle.com Thu Mar 29 04:56:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9EE21F89E6 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8a+wY5flENQ for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606DA21F89E3 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q2TButfR007266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:56:56 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q2TButrq009675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:56:55 GMT Received: from abhmt114.oracle.com (abhmt114.oracle.com [141.146.116.66]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q2TButSW022124 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:56:55 -0500 Received: from dhcp-5483.meeting.ietf.org (/130.129.84.131) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:56:55 -0700 From: Phil Hunt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:56:53 +0200 Message-Id: <7C203A08-0F44-4B10-8643-0C2BAF55EC6C@oracle.com> To: scim@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F744E08.00C2,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 Subject: [scim] Scope change request X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:56:58 -0000 I would like to request that the Targeting proposal presented today at = the BoF be added to the charter for consideration. A draft proposal has been submitted (new this week --> = draft-hunt-scim-targeting) which shows how targeting could be done. A brief summary: When provisioning to a service provider that has = multiple applications that may be provisioned, there are 3 alternatives: 1. Use schema extensions to objects (e.g. entitlements) to infer app = requests 2. Use separate domains and implement app specific endpoints (or = combined multi-homed service) 3. Use targeting for a RESTful explicit approach. Item 1 IMHO leads to complexity and future inter-op problems. Instead = it is better to keep SCIM requests simple and app-specific. As far as 2 and 3 goes, the proposal difference is: app-tennantid.scim.cloud.com/Users/xxxxxx vs. scim.cloud.com/Targets/app-tennantid/Users/xxxxxx The first one requires many more certificates to be issued and leads to = complexity for things like proxies and load-balancers. Putting the app = target in the path is going to be logistically much easier to manage. It = also means the semantics of the transaction are simplified because the = operation is now focused on a specific application target. I submitted the draft only to get the ball rolling and am very open to = other ideas. I do however feel that this requirement is a deliverable = that the IETF SCIM WG should address in the first round of = specifications. Phil @independentid www.independentid.com phil.hunt@oracle.com From tony@yaanatech.com Thu Mar 29 06:42:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A964021F8966 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YzOkY0XRgWOj for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from extmail1.prd.yaanatech.com (extmail1.prd.yaanatech.com [205.140.198.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41BAE21F890C for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (pool-173-72-136-146.clppva.fios.verizon.net [173.72.136.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by extmail1.prd.yaanatech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE89E58076; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:42:37 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:42:36 -0400 From: Tony Rutkowski Organization: Yaana Technologies User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120321 Thunderbird/12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gene Golovinsky References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020507010103040502030301" Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: tony@yaanatech.com List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:42:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020507010103040502030301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The NIST definition also has significant buy-in among multiple other standards bodies. There are, however, a few minor "deltas" for clarity worth noting. Other bodies have found "cloud service user" to be preferable to "consumer" in the various paragraphs. "Consumer" is a term with a lot of baggage and not defined in the NIST text. Other bodies have found "cloud service provider" to be preferable to "provider" in the various paragraphs. The term "provider" by itself is ambiguous. The term "appropriated" in "rapid elasticity" has been generally replaced with "obtained." "Appropriated" is a term with some undesirable alternative meanings. --tony On 3/29/2012 5:19 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > Just following up on Dan's request to outsource the definition of The > Cloud to other orgs. > > NIST has done a pretty decent job of it: > > _http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-145/SP800-145.pdf_ > --------------020507010103040502030301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The NIST definition also has significant
buy-in among multiple other standards bodies.
There are, however, a few minor "deltas" for
clarity worth noting.

Other bodies have found "cloud service user"
to be preferable to "consumer" in the various
paragraphs.  "Consumer" is a term with a lot
of baggage and not defined in the NIST text.

Other bodies have found "cloud service
provider" to be preferable to "provider"
in the various paragraphs.  The term
"provider" by itself is ambiguous.

The term "appropriated" in "rapid elasticity"
has been generally replaced with "obtained."
"Appropriated" is a term with some undesirable
alternative meanings.

--tony



On 3/29/2012 5:19 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

Just following up on Dan’s request to outsource the definition of The Cloud to other orgs.

NIST has done a pretty decent job of it:

http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-145/SP800-145.pdf


--------------020507010103040502030301-- From lear@cisco.com Thu Mar 29 06:49:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A9121F8B37 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:49:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eBWCekZBR-g3 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1855C21F8B33 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:49:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; l=151; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1333028972; x=1334238572; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qJsnOsTudJ0ozhQcjk7x0EsLZu1DNCrVO8tKbibJY1I=; b=Ma9W9dr1/rySYwrG9uWH0XiUdLieeK1qjK+ySkRH8sJPP72HTDuCe9Rn eQkPxq6UKIK/3XyT2+rncM+HMbHrhu4MxIGUT8pek2/ER3z9cDtSFznES 2H/ydMCYpuPP8jlf0ej5x08kQHYTHME1E6PLpqJTsBRQkA3Na1hCqnDN7 Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAFJndE+Q/khR/2dsb2JhbABEhUOzTYEHggoBAQQSARBmCxoCBSECAg8CRhMIAQEeh2ibdY0IkhiBL4xMggyBGASVYY5GgWiCaQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,668,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="69657330" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Mar 2012 13:49:31 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4459.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4459.cisco.com [10.61.81.106]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2TDnVgC011151 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:49:31 GMT Message-ID: <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:49:32 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120327 Thunderbird/11.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> In-Reply-To: <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:49:33 -0000 As an individual (I have no hat to wear at this point), I would suggest that focusing on the definition of cloud will not improve the SCIM protocol. From ggolovinsky@qualys.com Thu Mar 29 06:57:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BF421F8903 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.242, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axhzjHKGnaSH for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f172.google.com (mail-qc0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B3621F85A1 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcsq13 with SMTP id q13so1595806qcs.31 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-mailer:thread-index:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=VWH+9L2TDWHC1CN5gxGBxDqiU02RNrEyQ07LR1ee18U=; b=N6HH1AaIoXKt0GXaFlr2hEKrRMrH2x4cWbj3xCamUKYE8jIOczd9MBVGAU2vbmG2b1 buo65aydl0lRxc7P0nEMdCPwA+bhXm+oZIgv1PjhGO4GHn6gTaD38EJOZsmIfACPzUp+ Xq3zWx+1IaEDlMgd4WT97stvIIfrATsVsWxvCikEHK9ADhQRmSYznz9YKy8F/IKO00h5 NJCTHCQozkrl3xlSB2U6tE7vYKQP94nnnc+f837NCLqVJGRZzZ7rbjBoZqb43rPhkg2Z K9A/PKViTNsLyY/eey+r+tWv1XJj1zNacq21n4/i8NjIh/Mt2xARbzkm2JYtIu6+XpKD il8A== Received: by 10.229.106.34 with SMTP id v34mr12934661qco.153.1333029467432; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Gene Golovinsky References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 thread-index: AQGhWQto5AME6ZyVMw/oqchPAsB9OgBpQlFEAfBnWGWWxee08A== Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:53 -0700 Message-ID: <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> To: Eliot Lear , scim@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlDVe6kbua0/+L7WnxE8jwG5crcKNS+z+est4hC6ZoPQK+pgcnU0xOqe7npmo6/40kZagp3 Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:53 -0000 I agree. My previous post was a mere attempt to show that "cloud" in our world has reasonable definition and is accepted my many in the engineering community. No relation to SCIM, but rather to the BoF conversation. -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eliot Lear Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 06:50 AM To: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition As an individual (I have no hat to wear at this point), I would suggest that focusing on the definition of cloud will not improve the SCIM protocol. _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From vesely@tana.it Thu Mar 29 08:20:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5047621F8841 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I8sm8WdUUFUz for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (www.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1085D21F883F for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:20:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1333034421; bh=FOM40WZW1hcn5hbN02mMhdSpLmVRw6plu76J4eWXWSE=; l=569; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QWsyXSWl3IZiyNcgSY1UWxJDMNsBACn4BnkOB/cjdyphbxyCWULVjF8WYWnke5QCx tcQZJZ4jYxAroG+hkEI5baKFV8ipL3wGwZbUYr6H0s9tXDFP9ysHgrgq7awnBh0q97 J7LWbTI8bXVAdn0xNzcZIkSWzNttRLKX+y65I1X4= Received: from [130.129.20.64] (dhcp-1440.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.64]) (AUTH: PLAIN 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:20:21 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004F747DB5.000068AD Message-ID: <4F747DB2.5090503@tana.it> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:20:18 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:20:24 -0000 On Thu 29/Mar/2012 17:03:28 +0200 Eliot Lear wrote: > As an individual (I have no hat to wear at this point), I would suggest > that focusing on the definition of cloud will not improve the SCIM protocol. Hm... a cloud is, by definition, fuzzy. To talk about, say, "google cloud" as neatly separated from all other clouds sounds unreal. Avoiding cloud-to-cloud data transfers and privacy questions is consistent with such enterprise-oriented model. IMHO, that model is lacks a somewhat wider perspective. That's why I dis-hummed this morning. Regards From melinda.shore@gmail.com Thu Mar 29 10:36:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BD721E8183 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRxkO3abeeFy for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D0721E8180 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbbrq13 with SMTP id rq13so409238pbb.31 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PjPxjWrDMyCRvmtM7WRWOcqhpl0C/8OmLqzSnQvhL9w=; b=ioGUeZ7pNIrR4y8wSMTGSRF3S3NLwFSZ9qiW7lkrCAZl6m3WBedkDEV6/o3SZgQzL0 moenKoaaErSUz2A9BY4QxtykfsHxLEhPqI8Ufnul0XQSC7v0ypNyjmJ5f2Y1p2gQJhZA wY1Ez8VrxPrdZ8cJiTu87bnspDx0ZgVhCcayjcTf13LVBeU/VQFZy3HTuFn+TAW2KYXY 3KZoOC/yIQUmsZ5CEL7m4YqTAFdaaQXx9XDql5K3mG0EzJllVkGjA6wM83cODZQqUSYy edA6JgymDcEpLq1X2uWu7KN3CHQJjTGWwGTA5fBsqzQV3ZFUPamobTumPSlwWwGu0rBv c1/Q== Received: by 10.68.237.1 with SMTP id uy1mr1622757pbc.99.1333042573165; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polypro.local (66-230-81-245-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [66.230.81.245]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o2sm5430710pbb.45.2012.03.29.10.36.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:36:10 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.27) Gecko/20120216 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.19 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scim@ietf.org References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:36:14 -0000 On 3/29/12 5:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > I agree. My previous post was a mere attempt to show that "cloud" in our > world has reasonable definition and is accepted my many in the engineering > community. > No relation to SCIM, but rather to the BoF conversation. I suppose, but I don't think that this is a "cloud"-specific project in the first place and so definition of "cloud" is largely irrelevant, anyway. Melinda From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 29 11:02:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1812F21E8142 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:02:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWoVw-11Fwvb for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A8B21E805F for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2TI2IvU003246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:02:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.111]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2TI2IVu024720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:02:18 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB02.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.111]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:02:18 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Melinda Shore , "scim@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:02:17 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: Ac0N0ne2ao5d5v1xQz6ykA8dBchndAAA25TQ Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:02:24 -0000 ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. What else could t= he context be, when there are specific cloud-related scenarios and non-othe= r scenarios in scope? Michael -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mel= inda Shore Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:36 PM To: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition On 3/29/12 5:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > I agree. My previous post was a mere attempt to show that "cloud" in our > world has reasonable definition and is accepted my many in the engineerin= g > community. > No relation to SCIM, but rather to the BoF conversation. I suppose, but I don't think that this is a "cloud"-specific project in the first place and so definition of "cloud" is largely irrelevant, anyway. Melinda _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From melinda.shore@gmail.com Thu Mar 29 11:27:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322F621F87D8 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RQM9NkeZAZHD for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F56821F87D6 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbbrq13 with SMTP id rq13so465235pbb.31 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:27:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KVoxdhQHJo3VB062UNjY39eppdyw5Fokz3ZvpucEHTU=; b=Pyeelx8dNxDfWMemdKE49ABRvB80EhUR5m9kNHm6i0vOwVdXmXpKTPGz53wt7gpJ8r QsFzf3/ma1qYSvSkXXs0GsxUdwm2lGyG0Fy0k1nkHkcvKFwC213MOO5DdD/7zFn6UvBQ F8NV8Q4jGDh9QA9qJfYsZd/SRIY1t+BiKph4Rz1ldKey/4XA/ep2+gbZz2Oo3wc+ITfh exjHGDJK6mJe404o5lbKrHeB7e8FBgCLvX4jVQKdDMT/oH7y9Ng+2kOWutHvlyguIdMF pIGtnZkg3FFDSLeeGiT0PgnPlxoJtwcAdHZ3pa5iKUMWGvQrsrbGtEAj2cIu8pIdF4Y7 cZmA== Received: by 10.68.240.41 with SMTP id vx9mr2117695pbc.10.1333045640414; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polypro.local (66-230-81-245-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [66.230.81.245]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2sm5506658pbw.57.2012.03.29.11.27.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:27:16 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.27) Gecko/20120216 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.19 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:27:21 -0000 On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. > What else could the context be, when there are specific > cloud-related scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope? I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a particular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, and I've been involved with the IETF a very long time. I suppose there might be something new under the sun, after all. At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealing with identity provisioning problems. At a prior gig they're generating bulk updates out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database, and from that they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF for the LDAP directory. (Software longa, hardware brevis). Because each is run as a batch job overnight it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and when their account is actually provisioned. They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning model but vendor support is poor. I don't think this situation is *that* unusual in large enterprisese. Melinda From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 29 11:58:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFAA21F86B9 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H3tH4P-2XJRb for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336E721F8687 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.12]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2TIviDj014070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2TIvi9P009786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:44 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:43 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: Melinda Shore Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:39 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: Ac0N2ZSdSXST0kD/S/ueL2CubPWGKQAAjstw Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.12 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:58:12 -0000 Thanks Melinda. Disclaimer: I have NOT been involved for a long time with IETF, other than = in a IETF specs consumer role. But I have been involved for a long time as = an active contributor to other standards bodies. Therefore, I hope to be ex= cused if my thought process is quite different than the one used by long-ti= me IETF active contributors. Surely, any technology MAY apply to some domains that were not identified b= y the technology. However, it must be more important to deterministically m= ake sure that the technology DOES apply to at least 1 particular domain? Of course, "cloud" vendors or service providers are not the only ones faced= with Identity Management provisioning and/or retrieving issues. But that w= as the entire point of me questioning the premise that the SCIM work is NOT= cloud-specific. I agree that a technology may not necessarily be domain-sp= ecific, and may not even have to identify a single specific domain but I al= so think that this is only true once the technology is at a very low level = of granularity (e.g. how best to package large amounts of data in a given s= ize packet, or how to transmit the packet from one endpoint to another). Th= at is not the case with IdM, IMO. Unless specific scenarios (cloud-related = or otherwise) are used to focus the work, the technology developed will mis= s the target (which will be made easier by the fact that there is NO target= ). It will become a beautiful academic piece of work. Note that I am not arguing for a specific definition of "cloud", but I am a= rguing for specific scenarios. If those scenarios happen to apply to other = domains, great. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:27 PM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. > What else could the context be, when there are specific > cloud-related scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope? I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a particular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, and I've been involved with the IETF a very long time. I suppose there might be something new under the sun, after all. At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealing with identity provisioning problems. At a prior gig they're generating bulk updates out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database, and from that they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF for the LDAP directory. (Software longa, hardware brevis). Because each is run as a batch job overnight it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and when their account is actually provisioned. They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning model but vendor support is poor. I don't think this situation is *that* unusual in large enterprisese. Melinda From RNATALE@mitre.org Thu Mar 29 12:15:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA7021E801B for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmOGVl0RvpC3 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpksrv1.mitre.org (smtpksrv1.mitre.org [198.49.146.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9395D21E808E for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpksrv1.mitre.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E53B21B1906; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IMCCAS01.MITRE.ORG (imccas01.mitre.org [129.83.29.78]) by smtpksrv1.mitre.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0548721B1457; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IMCMBX01.MITRE.ORG ([169.254.1.233]) by IMCCAS01.MITRE.ORG ([129.83.29.78]) with mapi id 14.01.0339.001; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:15:31 -0400 From: "Natale, Bob" To: "'michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com'" Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: AQHNDdJ0zourlxXGl0mmHFjVqVZNUZaB05CAgAAG+wCAAAh9gP//we8L Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:15:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [129.83.242.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "'scim@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:15:35 -0000 I agree ... And would note that sometimes the "academic piece[s] of work" a= re not even all that "beautiful"! :) BB, BobN ----- Original Message ----- From: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) [mailto:michael.brenner@alcatel-lucen= t.com] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 02:57 PM=0A= To: Melinda Shore Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition Thanks Melinda. Disclaimer: I have NOT been involved for a long time with IETF, other than = in a IETF specs consumer role. But I have been involved for a long time as = an active contributor to other standards bodies. Therefore, I hope to be ex= cused if my thought process is quite different than the one used by long-ti= me IETF active contributors. Surely, any technology MAY apply to some domains that were not identified b= y the technology. However, it must be more important to deterministically m= ake sure that the technology DOES apply to at least 1 particular domain? Of course, "cloud" vendors or service providers are not the only ones faced= with Identity Management provisioning and/or retrieving issues. But that w= as the entire point of me questioning the premise that the SCIM work is NOT= cloud-specific. I agree that a technology may not necessarily be domain-sp= ecific, and may not even have to identify a single specific domain but I al= so think that this is only true once the technology is at a very low level = of granularity (e.g. how best to package large amounts of data in a given s= ize packet, or how to transmit the packet from one endpoint to another). Th= at is not the case with IdM, IMO. Unless specific scenarios (cloud-related = or otherwise) are used to focus the work, the technology developed will mis= s the target (which will be made easier by the fact that there is NO target= ). It will become a beautiful academic piece of work. Note that I am not arguing for a specific definition of "cloud", but I am a= rguing for specific scenarios. If those scenarios happen to apply to other = domains, great. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:27 PM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. > What else could the context be, when there are specific > cloud-related scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope? I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a particular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, and I've been involved with the IETF a very long time. I suppose there might be something new under the sun, after all. At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealing with identity provisioning problems. At a prior gig they're generating bulk updates out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database, and from that they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF for the LDAP directory. (Software longa, hardware brevis). Because each is run as a batch job overnight it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and when their account is actually provisioned. They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning model but vendor support is poor. I don't think this situation is *that* unusual in large enterprisese. Melinda _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com Thu Mar 29 12:45:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC1921F86B0 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BBKvMrOTp02T for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (ch1ehsobe004.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.181.184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0330F21F85EA for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4-ch1-R.bigfish.com (10.43.68.241) by CH1EHSOBE009.bigfish.com (10.43.70.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:53 +0000 Received: from mail4-ch1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail4-ch1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1D11E0838; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:53 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -35 X-BigFish: PS-35(zzbb2dI9371I3071M542M98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0410HT002.namprd04.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail4-ch1: domain of sailpoint.com designates 157.56.240.85 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.240.85; envelope-from=kelly.grizzle@sailpoint.com; helo=BL2PRD0410HT002.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; Received: from mail4-ch1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail4-ch1 (MessageSwitch) id 1333050350249574_32240; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1EHSMHS022.bigfish.com (snatpool2.int.messaging.microsoft.com [10.43.68.231]) by mail4-ch1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B772A0053; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0410HT002.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.85) by CH1EHSMHS022.bigfish.com (10.43.70.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:49 +0000 Received: from BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.2.218]) by BL2PRD0410HT002.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.99.37]) with mapi id 14.16.0135.002; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:48 +0000 From: Kelly Grizzle To: "Natale, Bob" , "'michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com'" Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: Ac0NjI5a6EpyiUgkSuOkzGABI94mMwAJT5wAAAA9/QAAAEqogAAHn5sAAADpgIAAAN9fAAABD6aAAACflwAAAFn2IA== Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:48 +0000 Message-ID: <56C3C758F9D6534CA3778EAA1E0C34371C654EA9@BL2PRD0410MB351.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.129.67.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sailpoint.com Cc: "'scim@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:45:55 -0000 I believe that this was mentioned at the BoF, but the charter calls for a u= se cases doc: draft-scim-use-cases-00 as the initial use cases for SCIM SCIM has no ambitions to live in an ivory tower, and all of the existing wo= rk has leaned towards pragmatism. There actually was a use cases doc devel= oped outside of the IETF which may serve as a basis for the draft. Regarding "cloud", I 100% agree that the identity management is not specifi= c to the cloud (and as Pete put it today, that the cloud is a bit cloudy). = There are many scenarios that SCIM can help with, ranging from cloud-to-cl= oud, enterprise-to-cloud, and any combination of these. The existing REST = protocol is very cloud-friendly, though, and my feeling is that cloud provi= ders are where much of the benefit will be seen initially. --Kelly -----Original Message----- From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nat= ale, Bob Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com' Cc: 'scim@ietf.org' Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition I agree ... And would note that sometimes the "academic piece[s] of work" a= re not even all that "beautiful"! :) BB, BobN ----- Original Message ----- From: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) [mailto:michael.brenner@alcatel-lucen= t.com] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 02:57 PM To: Melinda Shore Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition Thanks Melinda. Disclaimer: I have NOT been involved for a long time with IETF, other than = in a IETF specs consumer role. But I have been involved for a long time as = an active contributor to other standards bodies. Therefore, I hope to be ex= cused if my thought process is quite different than the one used by long-ti= me IETF active contributors. Surely, any technology MAY apply to some domains that were not identified b= y the technology. However, it must be more important to deterministically m= ake sure that the technology DOES apply to at least 1 particular domain? Of course, "cloud" vendors or service providers are not the only ones faced= with Identity Management provisioning and/or retrieving issues. But that w= as the entire point of me questioning the premise that the SCIM work is NOT= cloud-specific. I agree that a technology may not necessarily be domain-sp= ecific, and may not even have to identify a single specific domain but I al= so think that this is only true once the technology is at a very low level = of granularity (e.g. how best to package large amounts of data in a given s= ize packet, or how to transmit the packet from one endpoint to another). Th= at is not the case with IdM, IMO. Unless specific scenarios (cloud-related = or otherwise) are used to focus the work, the technology developed will mis= s the target (which will be made easier by the fact that there is NO target= ). It will become a beautiful academic piece of work. Note that I am not arguing for a specific definition of "cloud", but I am a= rguing for specific scenarios. If those scenarios happen to apply to other = domains, great. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:27 PM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. > What else could the context be, when there are specific > cloud-related= scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope? I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a partic= ular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, and I've b= een involved with the IETF a very long time. I suppose there might be some= thing new under the sun, after all. At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealing with ide= ntity provisioning problems. At a prior gig they're generating bulk update= s out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database, and from that = they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF for the LDAP director= y. (Software longa, hardware brevis). Because each is run as a batch job over= night it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and when th= eir account is actually provisioned. They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning mode= l but vendor support is poor. I don't think this situation is *that* unusu= al in large enterprisese. Melinda _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From eDreux@bcpsoft.fr Thu Mar 29 13:15:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CF121E80B9 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:15:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id itR36He5U+Vm for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tx2outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (tx2ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [65.55.88.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF31A21E80B7 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail135-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.235) by TX2EHSOBE008.bigfish.com (10.9.40.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:47 +0000 Received: from mail135-tx2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail135-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12513405C5; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:47 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -85 X-BigFish: PS-85(zzbb2dI9371I3071Mc89bh542M15caKJ98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.252.53; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:DB3PRD0610HT002.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail135-tx2: domain of bcpsoft.fr designates 157.56.252.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.252.53; envelope-from=eDreux@bcpsoft.fr; helo=DB3PRD0610HT002.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; Received: from mail135-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail135-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1333052144567550_12327; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS015.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.247]) by mail135-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FB81E0187; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3PRD0610HT002.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (157.56.252.53) by TX2EHSMHS015.bigfish.com (10.9.99.115) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:42 +0000 Received: from DB3PRD0610MB356.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.11.196]) by DB3PRD0610HT002.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.47.37]) with mapi id 14.16.0135.002; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:40 +0000 From: Emmanuel dreux To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" , Melinda Shore Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: AQHNDd5bfx6Oi+jUgE+2AkVOMB/a6JaBsBRw Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [92.154.76.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: bcpsoft.fr Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:50 -0000 Hi, As an IAM consultant for a long time, I can say that in on premise scenario= , I do not need a universal provisioning protocol. I'm using metadirectory products that read/write directly to LDAP, SQL data= bases, flat files, etc. In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different.=20 I do not have access directly to the directory that contains the accounts (= LDAP,SQL,etc). The provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to programm= atically and remotely manage accounts. Today every SAAS provider creates his proprietary API exposed for example = through webservices or REST apis. As an editor of a provisioning solution for Cloud based applications, each = time we integrate a new SAAS provider, we have to learn his programming mod= el and provisioning APIs. This is where SCIM becomes useful and relevant by allowing to standardize t= he management of the accounts. Tipically a SAAS issue because we do not have access natively to the reposi= tory (LDAP, SQL database, etc...). -- Regards, Emmanuel Dreux http://www.bcpsoft.fr Tel: +33 1 46 15 07 22 Mobile: +33 6 47 81 26 70 skype: Emmanuel.Dreux -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) [mailto:michael.brenner@alcatel-luce= nt.com]=20 Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 29 mars 2012 20:58 =C0=A0: Melinda Shore Cc=A0: scim@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [scim] Cloud definition Thanks Melinda. Disclaimer: I have NOT been involved for a long time with IETF, other than = in a IETF specs consumer role. But I have been involved for a long time as = an active contributor to other standards bodies. Therefore, I hope to be ex= cused if my thought process is quite different than the one used by long-ti= me IETF active contributors. Surely, any technology MAY apply to some domains that were not identified b= y the technology. However, it must be more important to deterministically m= ake sure that the technology DOES apply to at least 1 particular domain? Of course, "cloud" vendors or service providers are not the only ones faced= with Identity Management provisioning and/or retrieving issues. But that w= as the entire point of me questioning the premise that the SCIM work is NOT= cloud-specific. I agree that a technology may not necessarily be domain-sp= ecific, and may not even have to identify a single specific domain but I al= so think that this is only true once the technology is at a very low level = of granularity (e.g. how best to package large amounts of data in a given s= ize packet, or how to transmit the packet from one endpoint to another). Th= at is not the case with IdM, IMO. Unless specific scenarios (cloud-related = or otherwise) are used to focus the work, the technology developed will mis= s the target (which will be made easier by the fact that there is NO target= ). It will become a beautiful academic piece of work. Note that I am not arguing for a specific definition of "cloud", but I am a= rguing for specific scenarios. If those scenarios happen to apply to other = domains, great. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:27 PM To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. > What else could the context be, when there are specific > cloud-related= scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope? I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a partic= ular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, and I've b= een involved with the IETF a very long time. I suppose there might be some= thing new under the sun, after all. At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealing with ide= ntity provisioning problems. At a prior gig they're generating bulk update= s out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database, and from that = they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF for the LDAP director= y. (Software longa, hardware brevis). Because each is run as a batch job over= night it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and when th= eir account is actually provisioned. They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning mode= l but vendor support is poor. I don't think this situation is *that* unusu= al in large enterprisese. Melinda From melinda.shore@gmail.com Thu Mar 29 13:21:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF8F21E80B9 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ooUmnGy23f01 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAD221E805F for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbbrq13 with SMTP id rq13so581940pbb.31 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:21:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xqiBBvDROsIV1Ay4Z6Rvvq1c30H+GcLdrU/dMnhGyYE=; b=WL4rT71n1wKQo+4YwhBJwQxUQNqG/9wP4qFJfWvWWYras7ifKl3M84tyom3tOxFHWl aR4cD72GMzAR+gS975yMiK0oPGokLs5SN5pBPsqsllnMMxvM/pKwhHNuuC6fNeIDPtLI vgLDRep7dgbED+ljD9U0Mujxg+XyscjsjvIa8+SzqMMYzx5FfT8B9AXEOA9pLzvcdsPh O8TSOC0j8WIjR+1CUTrogVWpOCPqtoeuJJo/c1GBj+JoX4LwlvMyHxPD5H8zUrqCMtRw SiHO8aAqKq66eVlbDG9qYKPFvvg99KnecVociY11rARMC2RoR7IHZHajRdGR6IwDpemn f8Pw== Received: by 10.68.201.73 with SMTP id jy9mr2933849pbc.35.1333052463896; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polypro.local (66-230-81-245-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [66.230.81.245]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm5671864pbk.64.2012.03.29.13.21.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:21:01 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.27) Gecko/20120216 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.19 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emmanuel dreux References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:21:29 -0000 On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote: > In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access directly > to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The > provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to > programmatically and remotely manage accounts. You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises, where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. But even in cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batching model to a transactional one. Melinda From samuel@erdtman.se Fri Mar 30 00:23:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4078D21F872A for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i3WKgz5MpgNv for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE42F21F8716 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vcbfk13 with SMTP id fk13so254372vcb.31 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:x-gm-message-state:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vRzWFCdGrdc8yeXsiQbnUC8LmDHnkz5Ita3rdyIm638=; b=Bnerxd3gLERle31qcmBmUOmEXCxAl8uSxgYHkrAIryFWm/Zbr//hvRb4KylQgFx/98 dl8ydTFe1TLuXj/Bf0Sn5B1s+urrEHmXeMD8omBcxnutdWHUl94Q22ma3cyaKybubfuz 4KoJWDDZSDrRDweriGCLk/Lh+v9JmZl9UShS7hJIkg6RmFnyDFLSkb6yAZ+8bo3J3qyX wkZoMONYSm1UAZQrydLxnulv41ID60FByuYsTY7jROd/RejHm6Kw6MuxOrkwQZbW6NZr nnaVlVdtvoyd0i5G0Jgks078XJFTDoWigKFc0y38ZhkmIr5HcURUZK8d3tuhiO/8zgzT zkxA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.64.171 with SMTP id p11mr459685vds.78.1333092206938; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.193.130 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:23:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:23:26 +0200 Message-ID: From: Samuel Erdtman To: Melinda Shore X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlR56exPpQ1CIjDWo4bCArFeCUrcX+agaMVaQJ/wwwB7Jl9ZUA9E/Ag44UA+PFQnmNEgxkQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Emmanuel dreux Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:23:31 -0000 I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this post, if so I=B4m sorry for that. First I like the point that Michael does, just because it is aimed for cloud services does not mean that it cannot be used for other things too. And further, SCIM is just a name in the end. Cheers //Samuel On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melinda Shore w= rote: > On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote: >> >> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access directly >> to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The >> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to >> programmatically and remotely manage accounts. > > > You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises, > where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the > corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. =A0But even in > cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batching > model to a transactional one. > > > Melinda > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Fri Mar 30 00:30:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB8521F8754 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:30:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ISK-IIRFQB7 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD8221F875B for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenm5 with SMTP id m5so136105yen.31 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:30:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=lQiybpPkQ7AgcumdM+FacFTHpzle6jxnXxwfgkr2YWM=; b=T+HMWojGHZ2QKquqDrWSKnn7y2Gh0sWDTQfBovAt7S5TXu5g80BGfuamunT/KH+hW3 JI897qLWbklFqNk2NGOuTWd5hLMgfg+6Emroo61BHZuhyT3qfDQ4dHEXj9lYm7UQwOyZ B95oC/gJj8bcAjQVzg8kwv6nxEIPNeBd0w6lB0c2FRZadlTwnUqFXjWK/YHrWcTdcW1V 9q9OF+wexj5SogOSu47XoRLlRltOot6QiWG86z1DikovX0OD0YEnyxQo4J4UZ3uDvlcn PeSpv0FUoPUai5F81PKbc1C0E9yTpgviM/th9axu3eOy0/tcSimvQHvcTGOLs3zG7Kt+ v8YA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.79.40 with SMTP id h28mr999524yhe.50.1333092647399; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.146.230.1 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:30:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:30:47 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: SsXqM8bRykroOXyIqy_Hr3QxS98 Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Samuel Erdtman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fab4bb370f504bc70d169 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:30:48 -0000 --20cf300fab4bb370f504bc70d169 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this No, not 'tall. And further, SCIM is just a name in the end. That's what I was getting at in the meeting, when I asked people not to spin their wheels on the name right now. But you have to understand the history. We have had several attempts to "standardize clouds", with rambling, unfocused, and unpopular results. That's caused IETF people to be sensitive to and skeptical of the "cloud" word. Apart from that, we generally prefer not to take something of more general use and name it for a specific use case. The name will be what draws attention to the work, and people who would be important contributors might be put off, confused, or simply not drawn in by a too-narrow name. Barry, Applications AD --20cf300fab4bb370f504bc70d169 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I wil= l offend someone with this

No, not 'tal= l.

And further, SCIM is just a n= ame in the end.

=A0That's what I was ge= tting at in the meeting, when I asked people not to spin their wheels on th= e name right now.

But you have to understand the history. =A0We have had = several attempts to "standardize clouds", with rambling, unfocuse= d, and unpopular results. =A0That's caused IETF people to be sensitive = to and skeptical of the "cloud" word. =A0Apart from that, we gene= rally prefer not to take something of more general use and name it for a sp= ecific use case. =A0The name will be what draws attention to the work, and = people who would be important contributors might be put off, confused, or s= imply not drawn in by a too-narrow name.

Barry, Applications AD
--20cf300fab4bb370f504bc70d169-- From wmills@yahoo-inc.com Fri Mar 30 08:07:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77C721F865D for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKShNe8+-ho0 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.229.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F37F421F8652 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [98.138.90.48] by nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2012 15:07:41 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.162] by tm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2012 15:07:41 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1063.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2012 15:07:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 322566.25183.bm@omp1063.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 52302 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Mar 2012 15:07:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo-inc.com; s=ginc1024; t=1333120060; bh=+2F/iCnERPCYx5EKtln0bOwo9LfyK8sa2WkcTMvVTws=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-RocketYMMF:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=j7P+ZxG+O26/WSLD5S5PWaO0mfsUIdEeLThQJiLi09pYh/6hqmGPNMY800Ahp7Yk3AiLX8k9m8wSUazmNgz77wwl/8SYuk5dNXE7/9M1JcNJRBDwXkg75RKL83ageyPPKMD17SeU01oivuoGQxUEoHUzLgSMW38EI/U9pLq+Q7Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=ginc1024; d=yahoo-inc.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-RocketYMMF:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qK+tsW3v4Fiv+BthTyGIsuNfS7NNLnSDihPS0pUY5s/NuOJwraZCGb2B4H9YZa0zjgBTX4RC9EUGtKxBnZtp7zfpE4ly1f7FeAXBw9+Ema93oCNW0hT8r0IFDqoXevHywd4b9q4oRTOZwG2tgOaCVP3Wy6bjb0NL4pT7wFpDO9Y=; X-YMail-OSG: EV3sjpAVM1nZMxp.H66nDPRNhnHnvjWjPXMj0775KMH6TrQ tJyEHyMFvryV8eeoZic.8obNCKQ3EIZ5ODHLwGo9SxZuGNatqhV8FXWCSRFa QwwZSH2spEfI.xDuCMpu7zt.14h6n6v08OkuGQs1cgoVVnL1Cf2f8LAQSKbq y05bgJkJiaoRumuPgiAK3YeL0adlJzvmLcikOv3cfZc43T59j5ZsE3sj0Id8 gZkKjDeDy_vIMSxZ5M2BWUWuGZfP8nBhv.aVd0Fc99u4VVExEqK4XmZaHGzq vkQLhxjUR.N8rF.HemsVGg3LED3KmaJgXSXKyQCyhLqNcNhayw8Jh0F6_Zg6 GjptyEl.UB4C8dCwWtOnZXbxqrcJ6tvETPCCNJg6Cve_4.QFwwiaE4nQ7eW8 tK5ZlowkgnhikFx3OFobYxq83a56tku.nURTYlrW2152hrp3noVII Received: from [193.93.197.161] by web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:40 PDT X-RocketYMMF: william_john_mills X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.117.340979 References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1333120060.48891.YahooMailNeo@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:40 -0700 (PDT) From: William Mills To: Samuel Erdtman , Melinda Shore In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="835683298-1629582061-1333120060=:48891" Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Emmanuel dreux Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: William Mills List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:07:46 -0000 --835683298-1629582061-1333120060=:48891 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and how people think a= bout things.=A0 We can trivially get this much closer to what it actually d= oes.=A0 I personally like Push Identity Management Protocol (excepts it's n= ot a protocol), so we could PIMP my cloud.=0A=0A-bill=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>______= __________________________=0A> From: Samuel Erdtman =0A>= To: Melinda Shore =0A>Cc: "scim@ietf.org" ; Emmanuel dreux =0A>Sent: Friday, March 30, 20= 12 12:23 AM=0A>Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition=0A> =0A>I=B4m new at IE= TF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this=0A>post, if so I=B4= m sorry for that.=0A>=0A>First I like the point that Michael does, just bec= ause it is aimed for=0A>cloud services does not mean that it cannot be used= for other things=0A>too.=0A>=0A>And further, SCIM is just a name in the en= d.=0A>=0A>Cheers=0A>//Samuel=0A>=0A>On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melin= da Shore wrote:=0A>> On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanue= l dreux wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not= have access directly=0A>>> to the directory that contains the accounts (LD= AP,SQL,etc). The=0A>>> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will a= llow me to=0A>>> programmatically and remotely manage accounts.=0A>>=0A>>= =0A>> You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises= ,=0A>> where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the=0A= >> corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. =A0But even in=0A>= > cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batching= =0A>> model to a transactional one.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> Melinda=0A>> ___________= ____________________________________=0A>> scim mailing list=0A>> scim@ietf.= org=0A>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=0A>____________________= ___________________________=0A>scim mailing list=0A>scim@ietf.org=0A>https:= //www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=0A>=0A>=0A> --835683298-1629582061-1333120060=:48891 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and how people think= about things.  We can trivially get this much closer to what it actua= lly does.  I personally like Push Identity Management Protocol (except= s it's not a protocol), so we could PIMP my cloud.

-bill

From: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>=
To: Melinda Shore <mel= inda.shore@gmail.com>
Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>; Emmanuel dreux <eDreux@bcp= soft.fr>
Sent: Fri= day, March 30, 2012 12:23 AM
Subj= ect: Re: [scim] Cloud definition

=0AI=B4m= new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this
post, = if so I=B4m sorry for that.

First I like the point that Michael does= , just because it is aimed for
cloud services does not mean that it cann= ot be used for other things
too.

And further, SCIM is just a name= in the end.

Cheers
//Samuel

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21= PM, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>> On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote:
>>
>> = In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access directly
&g= t;> to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The
&= gt;> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to
&= gt;> programmatically and remotely manage accounts.
>
>
&= gt; You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises,
> where the people who run the ERP may not have write a= ccess to the
> corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. =  But even in
> cases where they are there's a lot of interest in= moving from a batching
> model to a transactional one.
>
&g= t;
> Melinda
> _______________________________________________<= br>> scim mailing list
> scim@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/scim
_______________________________________________scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim<= /a>


--835683298-1629582061-1333120060=:48891-- From michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Mar 30 08:36:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EF321F8711 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JniDM7kgr7kO for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450F621F86EF for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.11]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id q2UFaXtr003121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:36:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.110]) by usnavsmail3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id q2UFaWio015136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:36:32 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.125]) by USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.110]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:36:31 -0500 From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" To: William Mills , Samuel Erdtman , Melinda Shore Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:36:30 -0500 Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: Ac0OhuBihqmQ13LdQaSTzR7LyUEnzAAA8yzw Message-ID: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> <1333120060.48891.YahooMailNeo@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1333120060.48891.YahooMailNeo@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296USNAVSXCHMBSA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.11 Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Emmanuel dreux Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:36:42 -0000 --_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296USNAVSXCHMBSA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, you could still PIMP it by replacing Protocol with Provisioning (Push= Identity Management Provisioning):) Michael From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wil= liam Mills Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:08 AM To: Samuel Erdtman; Melinda Shore Cc: scim@ietf.org; Emmanuel dreux Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and how people think a= bout things. We can trivially get this much closer to what it actually doe= s. I personally like Push Identity Management Protocol (excepts it's not a= protocol), so we could PIMP my cloud. -bill ________________________________ From: Samuel Erdtman To: Melinda Shore Cc: "scim@ietf.org" ; Emmanuel dreux Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this post, if so I=B4m sorry for that. First I like the point that Michael does, just because it is aimed for cloud services does not mean that it cannot be used for other things too. And further, SCIM is just a name in the end. Cheers //Samuel On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melinda Shore > wrote: > On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote: >> >> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access directly >> to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The >> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to >> programmatically and remotely manage accounts. > > > You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises, > where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the > corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. But even in > cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batching > model to a transactional one. > > > Melinda > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296USNAVSXCHMBSA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, you= could still PIMP it by replacing Protocol with Provisioning (Push Identity= Management Provisioning)J

 

Mic= hael

 

From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto= :scim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of William Mills
Sent: F= riday, March 30, 2012 11:08 AM
To: Samuel Erdtman; Melinda Shore<= br>Cc: scim@ietf.org; Emmanuel dreux
Subject: Re: [scim] C= loud definition

=  

<= span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Annoy= ingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and how people think about = things.  We can trivially get this much closer to what it actually doe= s.  I personally like Push Identity Management Protocol (excepts it's = not a protocol), so we could PIMP my cloud.

 

-bill

 

F= rom: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>
To: M= elinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
Cc: "scim@ietf= .org" <scim@ietf.org>; Emmanuel dreux <eDreux@bcpsoft.fr> =
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [sc= im] Cloud definition


I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I = will offend someone with this
post, if so I=B4m sorry for that.

F= irst I like the point that Michael does, just because it is aimed for
cl= oud services does not mean that it cannot be used for other things
too.<= br>
And further, SCIM is just a name in the end.

Cheers
//Samu= el

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote:
>= ; On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote:
>>
>> In SAA= S / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access directly
>>= to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The
>>= ; provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to
>>= ; programmatically and remotely manage accounts.
>
>
> Yo= u run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises,
>= ; where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the
>= corporate directory or be able to provision accounts.  But even in> cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batch= ing
> model to a transactional one.
>
>
> Melinda> _______________________________________________
> scim mailing= list
> scim@ietf.org
> http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
_____________________________= __________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

<= o:p>

= --_000_219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296USNAVSXCHMBSA_-- From wmills@yahoo-inc.com Fri Mar 30 08:48:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4151521F84A7 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.623 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.623 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.975, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67MEht4m+h6O for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm8-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm8-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.95]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E2A121F8643 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [98.139.214.32] by nm8.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2012 15:48:06 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.199] by tm15.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2012 15:48:06 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2012 15:48:06 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 951692.36065.bm@omp1008.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 21103 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Mar 2012 15:48:06 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo-inc.com; s=ginc1024; t=1333122486; bh=NqNhiIS3oyki2BJkML8o0AVJxQKpD8f3VEr2AgpYb2Y=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-RocketYMMF:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=We9om2sypmBFWVMDWRLdvGUKk7P1XO2oTI2bQZAunKpxGZjOFwyeCbDHKTokBguwmnu0HyL3GMZY11e4vlTD0GbWfCEcRSzrqwTqAkx6CDW8CFKBfVWS1jthCf6xUU/PV1ArCawYx+YQKZZgBpmMFXdMe4v8amTFV1NCs0E0XjM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=ginc1024; d=yahoo-inc.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-RocketYMMF:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BXujwSdyOJ15u/lTSYya4Nd4nk9VlaQemfvFWwPUKms3C8Z4SO2Q3gWS7G7hOBJ67veRodvZ50hY6V0y1JP9jib8TR1i8gxLzrHBEBYDSZje28+kQFxsqzxUcjSt7kso2XJ43FAtAsV7spEtJsGWA5e6G3sGxohGiFywboi6+4I=; X-YMail-OSG: X79pT6oVM1mR1ziOLtD7ggHp_IJz1u9P2oDhonl_CGWkVkx EFam0MwhgMFlPGJ1f2bLKsxE.szWDJYhk4rgJxbKMovBaahZUFsMRSJ5pYU3 Q_UbKJdYfdP_PMv.g4etKI.meqx5ginLNFnmEON7X9REXWEUEWPHKWDT_Urj qf8qGN1s0uq2JgjZH6kMOND.YdR42cuoedlWdDTmXlQKiJwu0dFmFhVAkJOA g4wMHhHA4stOXPahUwP9yfKUgeyQxxP.G4P183EMNXxYgJa3XnzHp_lCgrYx lB9_FLz1ePVwrhoIYK1BqT_NvCegk8p81Wgz7JjUyh1_Ts6XrOSMSuXkcxBH KCYjCMT1dz8hsc2nQa0UPM6ryvSwclmxZVWnePazFlR4MvR.lr3PpiHrdD91 JnRA.D8n1yh20_UOl.vnRGhofPgiTD4hYYsKkco5rrracAzQCp0FFHA-- Received: from [193.93.197.161] by web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:48:06 PDT X-RocketYMMF: william_john_mills X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.117.340979 References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> <1333120060.48891.YahooMailNeo@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Message-ID: <1333122486.4926.YahooMailNeo@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:48:06 -0700 (PDT) From: William Mills To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , Samuel Erdtman , Melinda Shore In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="764183289-1377059503-1333122486=:4926" Cc: "scim@ietf.org" , Emmanuel dreux Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: William Mills List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:48:09 -0000 --764183289-1377059503-1333122486=:4926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now THAT is chock full of awesome, with awesome sauce...=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>___= _____________________________=0A> From: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" <= michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com>=0A>To: William Mills ; Samuel Erdtman ; Melinda Shore =0A>Cc: "scim@ietf.org" ; Emmanuel dreux =0A>Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 8:36 AM=0A>Subject: RE: [scim] Clo= ud definition=0A> =0A>=0A>Well, you could still PIMP it by replacing Protoc= ol with Provisioning (Push Identity Management Provisioning)J=0A>=A0=0A>Mic= hael=0A>=A0=0A>From:scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of William Mills=0A>Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:08 AM=0A>To: Sa= muel Erdtman; Melinda Shore=0A>Cc: scim@ietf.org; Emmanuel dreux=0A>Subject= : Re: [scim] Cloud definition=0A>=A0=0A>Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters = in a branding way and how people think about things.=A0 We can trivially ge= t this much closer to what it actually does.=A0 I personally like Push Iden= tity Management Protocol (excepts it's not a protocol), so we could PIMP my= cloud.=0A>=A0=0A>-bill=0A>=A0=0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A= >>=0A>>From:Samuel Erdtman =0A>>To: Melinda Shore =0A>>Cc: "scim@ietf.org" ; Emmanuel dreu= x =0A>>Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:23 AM=0A>>Subjec= t: Re: [scim] Cloud definition=0A>>=0A>>I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know= if I will offend someone with this=0A>>post, if so I=B4m sorry for that.= =0A>>=0A>>First I like the point that Michael does, just because it is aime= d for=0A>>cloud services does not mean that it cannot be used for other thi= ngs=0A>>too.=0A>>=0A>>And further, SCIM is just a name in the end.=0A>>=0A>= >Cheers=0A>>//Samuel=0A>>=0A>>On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melinda Sho= re wrote:=0A>>> On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dre= ux wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not ha= ve access directly=0A>>>> to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP= ,SQL,etc). The=0A>>>> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will al= low me to=0A>>>> programmatically and remotely manage accounts.=0A>>>=0A>>>= =0A>>> You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprise= s,=0A>>> where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the= =0A>>> corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. =A0But even in= =0A>>> cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batc= hing=0A>>> model to a transactional one.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>> Melinda=0A>>> __= _____________________________________________=0A>>> scim mailing list=0A>>>= scim@ietf.org=0A>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=0A>>_______= ________________________________________=0A>>scim mailing list=0A>>scim@iet= f.org=0A>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A> --764183289-1377059503-1333122486=:4926 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now THAT is chock full of awesome, with awesome sauce...
=

From: "Brenner, Mi= chael Ralf (Michael)" <michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: William Mills <wmills@yah= oo-inc.com>; Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>; Melinda Shore <= ;melinda.shore@gmail.com>
Cc:<= /span> "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>; Emmanuel dreux <eDreux@bcpsoft.f= r>
Sent: Friday, M= arch 30, 2012 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: [scim] Cloud definition

=0A
=0A
<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D;">Well, you could still PIMP it by replacing Protocol with Provisionin= g (Push Identity Management Provisioning)J
 
Michael
 
From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of William Mills
Sent: Friday= , March 30, 2012 11:08 AM
To: Samuel Erdtman; Melinda Shore
Cc: scim@ietf.org; Emmanuel dreux
Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud = definition
&n= bsp;
Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and h= ow people think about things.  We can trivially get this much closer t= o what it actually does.  I personally like Push Identity Management P= rotocol (excepts it's not a protocol), so we could PIMP my cloud.
 
-bill
 
=
From: Samuel Erdtman= <samuel@erdtman.se>
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gm= ail.com>
Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>; Emmanuel = dreux <eDreux@bcpsoft.fr>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:= 23 AM
Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition
I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with thispost, if so I=B4m sorry for that.

First I like the point that Micha= el does, just because it is aimed for
cloud services does not mean that = it cannot be used for other things
too.

And further, SCIM is just= a name in the end.

Cheers
//Samuel

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM= , Melinda Shore <melinda.s= hore@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux w= rote:
>>
>> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do = not have access directly
>> to the directory that contains the acc= ounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The
>> provider has to expose provisioning A= PIs that will allow me to
>> programmatically and remotely manage = accounts.
>
>
> You run into exactly this sort of situati= on in very large enterprises,
> where the people who run the ERP may = not have write access to the
> corporate directory or be able to prov= ision accounts.  But even in
> cases where they are there's a lo= t of interest in moving from a batching
> model to a transactional one.
>
>
> Melinda
> _____________________________= __________________
> scim mailing list
> scim@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/scim
_______________________________________________
scim= mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



<= /blockquote>
--764183289-1377059503-1333122486=:4926-- From mmanig@gmail.com Fri Mar 30 20:04:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2961A21F8568 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.833, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YaHBAT3p0WLs for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E95621F8555 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbta17 with SMTP id ta17so2054497obb.31 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=lXvEUTQhvOg70vutWtyoLcffcKGbIb7wRFTz9ravj+k=; b=aerNf2iFGa+DpGOgdkauTuYf2YVBjB8ePJsT3I9vTfsdeZQK3qxZ6cSQthRXUuONEC W/p3t0+WN3alUlTlrqfNW2Sbb9f/+qiXrnat9z5+1gViOA/qVSRvhx8Lq/pbUGMK1onb mGwgH+OpLPyumHTUXeqUFu4Nd+dCMJaevgLCHRypyfjPd5M+1HArQ0OsCmwKLtbwsvKX s+pZWjgmEJl6HvJmj6DHgCy0pZdgikj6nsRPsaTvwCFZW/yfULk6gJ2Kh4GC/QIW9fCl IUH1YPTCRza/AV6OsaQrlnj8/pmqmAkMLq81QGFen9UkRTxalCA5rzw+VertC8D38N+y 65YA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.134.97 with SMTP id pj1mr1018646obb.2.1333163051764; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.73.138 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.73.138 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:04:11 -0700 Message-ID: From: Mahalingam Mani To: Emmanuel dreux Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f83a64520cb0c04bc813688 Cc: "Brenner, Michael Ralf \(Michael\)" , "scim@ietf.org" , Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:04:14 -0000 --e89a8f83a64520cb0c04bc813688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very succinct problem statement. I wish this type of use-case was added to the problem statement presentation made to the BoF. That would have likely lessened the raining down on the cloud term while highlighting the cloud-specific reason. That is not to say the resulting proposed solution approach (of secondary importance to PS in BoF) cannot apply to narrower deployments (large enterprise, pseudo multi-tenant, multitenanted contact centers, etc); if anything those should derive as specific cases. -mani Sent from Droid On Mar 29, 2012 1:15 PM, "Emmanuel dreux" wrote: > Hi, > > As an IAM consultant for a long time, I can say that in on premise > scenario, I do not need a universal provisioning protocol. > I'm using metadirectory products that read/write directly to LDAP, SQL > databases, flat files, etc. > > In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. > I do not have access directly to the directory that contains the accounts > (LDAP,SQL,etc). > The provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to > programmatically and remotely manage accounts. > > Today every SAAS provider creates his proprietary API exposed for exampl= e > through webservices or REST apis. > As an editor of a provisioning solution for Cloud based applications, eac= h > time we integrate a new SAAS provider, we have to learn his programming > model and provisioning APIs. > > This is where SCIM becomes useful and relevant by allowing to standardize > the management of the accounts. > Tipically a SAAS issue because we do not have access natively to the > repository (LDAP, SQL database, etc...). > > -- > Regards, > Emmanuel Dreux > http://www.bcpsoft.fr > Tel: +33 1 46 15 07 22 > Mobile: +33 6 47 81 26 70 > skype: Emmanuel.Dreux > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) [mailto: > michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com] > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 29 mars 2012 20:58 > =C0 : Melinda Shore > Cc : scim@ietf.org > Objet : Re: [scim] Cloud definition > > Thanks Melinda. > > Disclaimer: I have NOT been involved for a long time with IETF, other tha= n > in a IETF specs consumer role. But I have been involved for a long time a= s > an active contributor to other standards bodies. Therefore, I hope to be > excused if my thought process is quite different than the one used by > long-time IETF active contributors. > > Surely, any technology MAY apply to some domains that were not identified > by the technology. However, it must be more important to deterministicall= y > make sure that the technology DOES apply to at least 1 particular domain? > > Of course, "cloud" vendors or service providers are not the only ones > faced with Identity Management provisioning and/or retrieving issues. But > that was the entire point of me questioning the premise that the SCIM wor= k > is NOT cloud-specific. I agree that a technology may not necessarily be > domain-specific, and may not even have to identify a single specific doma= in > but I also think that this is only true once the technology is at a very > low level of granularity (e.g. how best to package large amounts of data = in > a given size packet, or how to transmit the packet from one endpoint to > another). That is not the case with IdM, IMO. Unless specific scenarios > (cloud-related or otherwise) are used to focus the work, the technology > developed will miss the target (which will be made easier by the fact tha= t > there is NO target). It will become a beautiful academic piece of work. > > Note that I am not arguing for a specific definition of "cloud", but I am > arguing for specific scenarios. If those scenarios happen to apply to oth= er > domains, great. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:27 PM > To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) > Cc: scim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition > > On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote: > > ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused. > > What else could the context be, when there are specific > > cloud-related scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope? > > I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a > particular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, an= d > I've been involved with the IETF a very long time. I suppose there might > be something new under the sun, after all. > > At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealing with > identity provisioning problems. At a prior gig they're generating bulk > updates out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database, and fr= om > that they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF for the LDAP > directory. > (Software longa, hardware brevis). Because each is run as a batch job > overnight it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and > when their account is actually provisioned. > They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning > model but vendor support is poor. I don't think this situation is *that* > unusual in large enterprisese. > > Melinda > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > --e89a8f83a64520cb0c04bc813688 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Very succinct problem statement. I wish this type of use-case was added = to the problem statement presentation made to the BoF. That would have like= ly lessened the raining down on the cloud term while highlighting the cloud= -specific reason. That is not to say the resulting proposed solution approa= ch (of secondary importance to PS in BoF) cannot apply to narrower deployme= nts (large enterprise, pseudo multi-tenant, multitenanted contact centers, = etc); if anything those should derive as specific cases.

-mani
Sent from Droid

On Mar 29, 2012 1:15 PM, "Emmanuel dreux&qu= ot; <eDreux@bcpsoft.fr> wrot= e:
Hi,

As an IAM consultant for a long time, I can say that in on premise scenario= , I do not need a universal provisioning protocol.
I'm using metadirectory products that read/write directly to LDAP, SQL = databases, flat files, etc.

In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different.
I do not have access directly to the directory that contains the accounts (= LDAP,SQL,etc).
The provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to programm= atically and remotely manage accounts.

Today every SAAS provider creates his proprietary API exposed =A0for exampl= e through webservices or REST apis.
As an editor of a provisioning solution for Cloud based applications, each = time we integrate a new SAAS provider, we have to learn his programming mod= el and provisioning APIs.

This is where SCIM becomes useful and relevant by allowing to standardize t= he management of the accounts.
Tipically a SAAS issue because we do not have access natively to the reposi= tory (LDAP, SQL database, etc...).

--
Regards,
Emmanuel Dreux
http://www.bcpsoft.fr
Tel: += 33 1 46 15 07 22
Mobile: +33 6 47 81 26 70
skype: Emmanuel.Dreux

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) [mailto:michael.brenner@alcatel-lucent.com]
Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 29 mars 2012 20:58
=C0=A0: Melinda Shore
Cc=A0: scim@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [scim] Cloud definition

Thanks Melinda.

Disclaimer: I have NOT been involved for a long time with IETF, other than = in a IETF specs consumer role. But I have been involved for a long time as = an active contributor to other standards bodies. Therefore, I hope to be ex= cused if my thought process is quite different than the one used by long-ti= me IETF active contributors.

Surely, any technology MAY apply to some domains that were not identified b= y the technology. However, it must be more important to deterministically m= ake sure that the technology DOES apply to at least 1 particular domain?
Of course, "cloud" vendors or service providers are not the only = ones faced with Identity Management provisioning and/or retrieving issues. = But that was the entire point of me questioning the premise that the SCIM w= ork is NOT cloud-specific. I agree that a technology may not necessarily be= domain-specific, and may not even have to identify a single specific domai= n but I also think that this is only true once the technology is at a very = low level of granularity (e.g. how best to package large amounts of data in= a given size packet, or how to transmit the packet from one endpoint to an= other). That is not the case with IdM, IMO. Unless specific scenarios (clou= d-related or otherwise) are used to focus the work, the technology develope= d will miss the target (which will be made easier by the fact that there is= NO target). It will become a beautiful academic piece of work.

Note that I am not arguing for a specific definition of "cloud", = but I am arguing for specific scenarios. If those scenarios happen to apply= to other domains, great.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Melinda Shore [mailto:meli= nda.shore@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:27 PM
To: Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)
Cc: scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition

On 3/29/12 10:02 AM, Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael) wrote:
> ... if this is NOT cloud-specific ... then I am confused.
=A0> What else could the context be, when there are specific =A0> clo= ud-related scenarios and non-other scenarios in scope?

I believe this might be the first time I've seen it suggested that a pa= rticular technology has no applicability to stuff not in a document, and I&= #39;ve been involved with the IETF a very long time. =A0I suppose there mig= ht be something new under the sun, after all.

At any rate, "cloud" vendors are by no means the only ones dealin= g with identity provisioning problems. =A0At a prior gig they're genera= ting bulk updates out of their ERP and loading them into an Oracle database= , and from that they're generating updates to a SQL database and LDIF f= or the LDAP directory.
(Software longa, hardware brevis). =A0Because each is run as a batch job ov= ernight it's 48 hours between the time a new person is brought in and w= hen their account is actually provisioned.
They've been trying to move to a SPML-based transactional provisioning = model but vendor support is poor. =A0I don't think this situation is *t= hat* unusual in large enterprisese.

Melinda


_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
--e89a8f83a64520cb0c04bc813688-- From prvs=1437EF2AFE=per.hagero@nexussafe.com Fri Mar 30 23:50:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCC621F85E0 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:50:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.414 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.414 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=1, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9dpenHNDlKdl for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MailEdge.nexussafe.com (mailedge.nexussafe.com [83.241.133.98]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F0721F85D7 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MARVMAILCAS.technxs.com (10.75.28.35) by MailEdge.nexussafe.com (83.241.133.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 08:50:26 +0200 Received: from MARVMAILDB.technxs.com ([fe80::93a:970c:f043:1455]) by MarvMailCAS.technxs.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 08:50:30 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Per_H=E4ger=F6?= To: "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)" Thread-Topic: [scim] Cloud definition Thread-Index: Ac0NjI5a6EpyiUgkSuOkzGABI94mMwAFHroAAAA9/QAAAEqogAAHn5sAAADpgIAAAN9eAAABD6aAAAK5YIAAAC/8gAAXIncAABA2kgAAAQHKAAAf66aA Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 06:50:29 +0000 Message-ID: <87ECC8FD-D0E3-459F-B942-D95FF7913C77@nexussafe.com> References: <7006d6ef554e58d1fd81433a16639306@mail.gmail.com> <4F7466CC.1090004@yaanatech.com> <4F74686C.80107@cisco.com> <256df9833e11b1b1da54f4272d9380aa@mail.gmail.com> <4F749D8A.4090503@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8E9A@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74A984.9090307@gmail.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B8F20@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <4F74C42D.2020609@gmail.com> <1333120060.48891.YahooMailNeo@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <219947F0B2242843A0A1E62FDB510DC0250F6B9296@USNAVSXCHMBSA3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.75.28.12] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_87ECC8FDD0E3459FB942D95FF7913C77nexussafecom_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Samuel Erdtman , William Mills , Melinda Shore , Emmanuel dreux , "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 06:50:36 -0000 --_004_87ECC8FDD0E3459FB942D95FF7913C77nexussafecom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_87ECC8FDD0E3459FB942D95FF7913C77nexussafecom_" --_000_87ECC8FDD0E3459FB942D95FF7913C77nexussafecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would be great to keep the word simple in there (look what happened to SMTP= compared to X.400) so it could be SIM. Per H=E4ger=F6 | CTO Nexus Group | www.nexussafe.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -= - -- - - - - - - Office: +46 8 655 39 00 Mobile: +46 702 69 14 66 Email: per.hagero@nexussafe.com Skype: hag= ero - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -= - -- - - - - - - Connect with Nexus Twitter: @TechnologyNexus Facebook <= http://www.gartner.com/technology/summits/emea/identity-access/index.jsp> [cid:image002.jpg@01CCF0A9.2D43D06= 0] http://www.nexussafe.com/byodseminarium 30 mar 2012 kl. 17:36 skrev Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael): Well, you could still PIMP it by replacing Protocol with Provisioning (Push= Identity Management Provisioning):) Michael From: scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf OfWilliam Mills Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:08 AM To: Samuel Erdtman; Melinda Shore Cc: scim@ietf.org; Emmanuel dreux Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and how people think a= bout things. We can trivially get this much closer to what it actually doe= s. I personally like Push Identity Management Protocol (excepts it's not a= protocol), so we could PIMP my cloud. -bill ________________________________ From: Samuel Erdtman > To: Melinda Shore > Cc: "scim@ietf.org" >; Emmanuel dreux > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [scim] Cloud definition I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this post, if so I=B4m sorry for that. First I like the point that Michael does, just because it is aimed for cloud services does not mean that it cannot be used for other things too. And further, SCIM is just a name in the end. Cheers //Samuel On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melinda Shore > wrote: > On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote: >> >> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access directly >> to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The >> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to >> programmatically and remotely manage accounts. > > > You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises, > where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the > corporate directory or be able to provision accounts. But even in > cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batching > model to a transactional one. > > > Melinda > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --_000_87ECC8FDD0E3459FB942D95FF7913C77nexussafecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <2B4F13F87FBBD941BD545C51C32DA69E@nexussafe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would be great to keep the word simple in there (look what happened to SMTP= compared to X.400) so it could be SIM. 

Per H=E4ger=F6  |  CTO
Nexus = ;Group  |  www.nexussafe.com
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Office: += 46 8 655 39 00  Mobile: = 3;46 702 69 14 66
Email:per.hagero@nexussafe.com&nb= sp;Skype:&nb= sp;hagero
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Connect with Nexus
=

30 mar 2012 kl. 17:36 skrev Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael):

Well, you could still PIMP it by replacing Protocol with = Provisioning (Push Identity Management Provisioning)J=
 
Michael
 
From:=  scim-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:scim-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf OfWilliam Mills
Sent: Friday, Marc= h 30, 2012 11:08 AM
To: Samuel Erdtman= ; Melinda Shore
Cc: scim@ietf.org; Emmanuel dreux
Subject: Re: [scim= ] Cloud definition
 
Annoyingly perhaps, naming matters in a branding way and how people think = about things.  We can trivially get this much closer to what it actual= ly does.  I personally like Push Identity Management Protocol (excepts it's not a protocol), so we could PIMP my clo= ud.
 
-bill
 
From: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman= .se>
To: Melinda Shore = <melinda.shore@gmail.com&= gt; 
Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>; Emmanuel dreux <eDreux@bcpsoft.fr> 
Sent: Friday, Marc= h 30, 2012 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [scim= ] Cloud definition<= /div>


I=B4m new at IETF so I don=B4t know if I will offend someone with this
post, if so I=B4m sorry for that.

First I like the point that Michael does, just because it is aimed for
cloud services does not mean that it cannot be used for other things
too.

And further, SCIM is just a name in the end.

Cheers
//Samuel

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Melinda Shore <mel= inda.shore@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/12 12:15 PM, Emmanuel dreux wrote:
>>
>> In SAAS / ASP scenario, it's different. I do not have access direc= tly
>> to the directory that contains the accounts (LDAP,SQL,etc). The >> provider has to expose provisioning APIs that will allow me to
>> programmatically and remotely manage accounts.
>
>
> You run into exactly this sort of situation in very large enterprises,=
> where the people who run the ERP may not have write access to the
> corporate directory or be able to provision accounts.  But even i= n
> cases where they are there's a lot of interest in moving from a batchi= ng
> model to a transactional one.
>
>
> Melinda
> _______________________________________________
> scim mailing list
> scim@ietf.= org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/scim

_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

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