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[209.6.124.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 83sm29398796qkz.73.2019.01.02.15.57.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Jan 2019 15:57:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E216) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:57:49 -0500 Cc: "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 23:57:54 -0000 Hi, I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and appreciate all the work= you have done with the security proof and comparing to existing standardize= d protocols. If ACE is interested, why is this going to SECDispatch? It mig= ht help to understand that better. Is it that a recharter would be needed? Thank you & happy new year! Kathleen=20 Sent from my mobile device > On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: >=20 > Dear Secdispatch, >=20 > We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: https://tools.i= etf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe >=20 > Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draft. The probl= em statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1. In brief, t= he target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for IoT applicatio= ns, which: > a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives to enable low= overhead and small code footprint;=20 > b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-end security i= n IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and > c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) that is lac= king a harmonizing key exchange protocol. >=20 > These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device deployments, bu= t the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security settings where the= overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC addresses these requirement= s and builds on the SIGMA construction for Diffie-Hellman key exchanges. EDH= OC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC 7049) and COSE (RFC 8152) and the pro= tocol messages may be transported with CoAP (RFC 7252). =20 >=20 > There has been a number of reviews of different versions of the draft; bot= h by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the security. A fo= rmal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a few implementations= of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has expressed interest in th= is work in several f2f meetings. >=20 > Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispatch to consi= der this draft, or how we can help out in the process. >=20 > Best regards > G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch From nobody Thu Jan 3 22:17:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5AC124D68 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 22:17:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, 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aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZWNkaXNwYXRjaA0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Jan 18 08:55:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9271311E0 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 08:55:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dLhZNg-E1dtQ for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 08:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B541311DE for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 08:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com with SMTP id g75so5500685ywb.1 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=1vmLfsF22ttV/NLEhxehCDgN29VUeEoEeDZESyQB5GA=; b=DffNEqLkKLbxcrtjDML78Vh7uNOVE9CqRM1QdfJSf+cLpGauSf4xUb5H4ZKEa03hhW Qfco7ga6ymbrAJXe5L0svrT5c7Wv4CDXrvuZIbDkIrvCq4C+njTI9jktgtp+K5FhchLQ FaN0HGSbyS4N0tJd1zq3cn3Bqm3/9W1OAsabHnANOUl752iRp9eXjOr328X6b19MzMtN oxvkeYv+16j41P1T3Z9Dq8N1y7oy46R3BjRLtfuUG889ysQtNgaJQjYga9w7ihiYW3jr LBIPNh+S+A0wdaZP6IeQknXBxO2WAdmL8KgqHTuzk1RxxeoGF9ztBO+paYMe5Ct/WmLm 7yTw== 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smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j12sm1943462ywk.43.2019.01.18.08.55.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Jan 2019 08:55:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Richard Barnes In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 11:54:58 -0500 Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , "ace@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 16:55:07 -0000 Let me provide some additional context. When the chairs and ADs = discussed this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within = the current charter of ACE =E2=80=94 after all, ACE is targeted at = authentication and authorization, not key exchange. Since ACE would = need to recharter to accept this work in any case, and because EDHOC = overlapped with the interests of other working groups, it seemed to make = sense to have the conversation in a broader venue. G=C3=B6ran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated = summary of the past discussion of this draft. Since this is a new = audience, it would be helpful if you could start from the underlying = requirements (=E2=80=9Cwe need an AKE with certain constraints=E2=80=9D) = and lay out why new protocol work is needed, vs. profiling existing = protocols (as has been done, e.g., in DICE). If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange a = virtual interim on this topic. =E2=80=94Richard > On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:17 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander = wrote: >=20 > Hi Kathleen, >=20 > Good question. Thanks for bringing continuity to this almost 2 years = long offline discussion. Indeed, lack of comparison with other protocols = and formal verification were at the time the arguments for not following = up the in-room consensus with an email confirmation. And, as you noted, = that is not the case anymore. >=20 > Meanwhile the ACE chairs and AD have changed. My understanding is that = the argument now is about attracting more people with a certain security = competence for which perhaps another WG could potentially be better, = hence the request to Secdispatch. But I'll pass the question on and = include the ACE WG for transparency. >=20 > =46rom the authors' humble point of view we believe that the main = missing thing that would enable the required further discussion is that = the IETF endorses this work, no matter how, so that people dare invest = more time in implementation and analysis.=20 >=20 > Best regards, > G=C3=B6ran >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-03, 00:58, "Kathleen Moriarty" = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and appreciate all = the work you have done with the security proof and comparing to existing = standardized protocols. If ACE is interested, why is this going to = SECDispatch? It might help to understand that better. Is it that a = recharter would be needed? >=20 > Thank you & happy new year! > Kathleen=20 >=20 > Sent from my mobile device >=20 >> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander = wrote: >>=20 >> Dear Secdispatch, >>=20 >> We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe >>=20 >> Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draft. The = problem statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1. In = brief, the target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for = IoT applications, which: >> a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives to = enable low overhead and small code footprint;=20 >> b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-end = security in IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and >> c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) that = is lacking a harmonizing key exchange protocol. >>=20 >> These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device = deployments, but the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security = settings where the overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC = addresses these requirements and builds on the SIGMA construction for = Diffie-Hellman key exchanges. EDHOC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC = 7049) and COSE (RFC 8152) and the protocol messages may be transported = with CoAP (RFC 7252). =20 >>=20 >> There has been a number of reviews of different versions of the = draft; both by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the = security. A formal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a = few implementations of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has = expressed interest in this work in several f2f meetings. >>=20 >> Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispatch to = consider this draft, or how we can help out in the process. >>=20 >> Best regards >> G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Secdispatch mailing list >> Secdispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Jan 18 09:06:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4321130E92; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:06:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Byu5JjOEYNhK; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DD8C130E8E; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id t13so15971964qtn.3; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:06:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=DAdbCXSg6FLCtBM3e8kts9UTb1TNt03mfPSjDoKbY3w=; b=Y0POdS0+YFyEE6fH+xoEFD2p/Z+C5MRwRe0oHks7MHDqQyCttFQp+q72JKYZlkEHKZ 8I64sPINN6CE88yt1c6tnTsydBZtLgi6J5GRAglVKYayvlJJbQ/aieVqY3SUbS9aAzJ0 OOFv/rjMSSJGYp0OxblRk3cI2REH/6zs0VgyTRrcdolvf7e4ORwVL7gmjX2ZspvsCCWK 25VJD+/UZw74tRMplygmlJko5w8OCcWuHjvtroKmkrS7jNHVj3Q3hQjjaPS9Z1bh6bak j3ysUqKSJoqNc5Q9GK/e/oQgB6CWWuykmXuH0t87d+BfgSnQqrAQ0E7yYSV7tzMCkyy+ lBUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=DAdbCXSg6FLCtBM3e8kts9UTb1TNt03mfPSjDoKbY3w=; b=isqItkwVCgwunHksdbJxMVwetLmCQv1ecSannLK1gR60tZ/NG2fvBwZhQHaz6c8kUb l3GrPc2macAv3/xioX34+MTzGl7vssMti97cW5XPbSEjNCSPXH9XsDOSGa6BNQSuDM5W 5k2jFPt49LLllG8M3MJLNDQnqULqVMqcXOU2aYTlXAXkHIZaPbDa3oEQp/o3OEI85gmJ /hlti9nkPQLpkymKVw74l6S7i+xKOJScqtCQ5RItf+kQZsvWx6fJbYu+KuduxJoV2hxX 6nH9GvE140XP8aRqqYWR1c+qeonaFewbiXGwYGnHMVsNgT5NCgr9lEihW6x3DXcjj0ld vX8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukej3pG5fPNI7EwZTFA6+GsfDO6V48QG7I0RIP818GiO6buSkTpW eJqWNhpV2t7YqrX02kTzMPs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN65SUHLBhIV3DbxTBP//t3bUufXkiKlUbqTruByIRpPq/71pGaX43qlbWAQDpcdzRYLuBh4QQ== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:d40f:: with SMTP id t15mr16589997qvh.117.1547831201359; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:380:8d54:8c15:d4de:e39b:794d:169a? ([2600:380:8d54:8c15:d4de:e39b:794d:169a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f19sm60297596qtf.1.2019.01.18.09.06.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:06:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E216) In-Reply-To: <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:06:40 -0500 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2E8F9AF0-4A06-49DA-B70D-7CBEF0BFA3AF@gmail.com> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> To: Richard Barnes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 17:06:46 -0000 Can that be a public thread? It really should be. Sent from my mobile device > On Jan 18, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Richard Barnes wrote: >=20 > Let me provide some additional context. When the chairs and ADs discussed= this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within the current ch= arter of ACE =E2=80=94 after all, ACE is targeted at authentication and auth= orization, not key exchange. Since ACE would need to recharter to accept th= is work in any case, and because EDHOC overlapped with the interests of othe= r working groups, it seemed to make sense to have the conversation in a broa= der venue. >=20 > G=C3=B6ran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated summ= ary of the past discussion of this draft. Since this is a new audience, it w= ould be helpful if you could start from the underlying requirements (=E2=80=9C= we need an AKE with certain constraints=E2=80=9D) and lay out why new protoc= ol work is needed, vs. profiling existing protocols (as has been done, e.g.,= in DICE). >=20 > If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange a v= irtual interim on this topic. >=20 > =E2=80=94Richard >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:17 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Kathleen, >>=20 >> Good question. Thanks for bringing continuity to this almost 2 years long= offline discussion. Indeed, lack of comparison with other protocols and for= mal verification were at the time the arguments for not following up the in-= room consensus with an email confirmation. And, as you noted, that is not th= e case anymore. >>=20 >> Meanwhile the ACE chairs and AD have changed. My understanding is that th= e argument now is about attracting more people with a certain security compe= tence for which perhaps another WG could potentially be better, hence the re= quest to Secdispatch. But I'll pass the question on and include the ACE WG f= or transparency. >>=20 >> =46rom the authors' humble point of view we believe that the main missing= thing that would enable the required further discussion is that the IETF en= dorses this work, no matter how, so that people dare invest more time in imp= lementation and analysis.=20 >>=20 >> Best regards, >> G=C3=B6ran >>=20 >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-03, 00:58, "Kathleen Moriarty" wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and appreciate all the= work you have done with the security proof and comparing to existing standa= rdized protocols. If ACE is interested, why is this going to SECDispatch? I= t might help to understand that better. Is it that a recharter would be nee= ded? >>=20 >> Thank you & happy new year! >> Kathleen=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my mobile device >>=20 >>> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: >>>=20 >>> Dear Secdispatch, >>>=20 >>> We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe >>>=20 >>> Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draft. The pro= blem statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1. In brief,= the target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for IoT applicat= ions, which: >>> a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives to enable l= ow overhead and small code footprint;=20 >>> b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-end security= in IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and >>> c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) that is l= acking a harmonizing key exchange protocol. >>>=20 >>> These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device deployments, b= ut the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security settings where th= e overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC addresses these requiremen= ts and builds on the SIGMA construction for Diffie-Hellman key exchanges. ED= HOC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC 7049) and COSE (RFC 8152) and the pr= otocol messages may be transported with CoAP (RFC 7252). =20 >>>=20 >>> There has been a number of reviews of different versions of the draft; b= oth by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the security. A f= ormal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a few implementation= s of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has expressed interest in t= his work in several f2f meetings. >>>=20 >>> Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispatch to con= sider this draft, or how we can help out in the process. >>>=20 >>> Best regards >>> G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Secdispatch mailing list >>> Secdispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Jan 18 09:12:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDC3130EB8 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:12:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.04 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.04 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6L2XO99jSMGj for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B122130EAC for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id 32so14966515ota.12 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:12:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3KEjCeMlWqTghvBIHUPsmyNJb5RGWuzSxfKVKvnpHvA=; b=NK7CbcavoJ0okf7LhDyxR8+MbF79XCqF1Ui5F8e1keuGkt0jm364SvyYMwXrZgtWFB 0H0X5lrwEQ/WjoyE7kyjUaTYsn4DyJ2AQtPArhw6xFaasMGqS2mD8hFpu91Xlt9pqpqN /JECKL/Xd9xBES/Y6pZEWhtPxN76hqewmfemC8F8biafxqqG9WsE/awv12LcN5XVX9QD EtYXht35U7F5u2iHzXm/DNWoPv8pD20rniNNzel5s20hdrFb0ZtkbcFc1UNa2zmncz4X /+z/y6EzcN0fY10hJwCDw8uXAEw3IN9kTYrvceYBdi5H3cYL+zI8wCi+tdxkv6iqq9bN k2hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3KEjCeMlWqTghvBIHUPsmyNJb5RGWuzSxfKVKvnpHvA=; b=YB8l2gDnT+U9QkxoU2vlqjOWXeTOJh1bYHFsMM742ku9/fk6/DkRpIc+HEImqUCjwa 1HwaJydGk3Up5TgJVdpQDA8xQhQz7EZLKO8HQmz/5YYEPv2pN/1H2rjK64wqM+RRz6ul wCmicj9OTr8zor8/BZKlhlyFnpW7b06mcVF/oW19LzeYh5yPGFnvT5eIUc1giJ0AxRjT jdH+K3QayikJT6bYOdNuKmEHO3uwNuAEF7HrLV0mUmBarV7spkFaEyF76bBOK2HEmeE6 CHVs9y3BO31cgPL3gw6dlB7M7xOTPt7phqsq42NjReivyG7Iasx0xUIh+Tw2BIKlZYmm 2BNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeJTlswCmYHExAVpWTJOlCHyU4Yi8hSgMigzxFIWgzvKtxS3bk9 pY62jaaJ5VH5lc2PFd1cqLRUhrBzHeIxMkjNKE49AQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6hzasix7ezN6+qk++9Sln7HfPaB0v7f291FGIt0a3sd9lXIjDh8BbKmALErBPrwO4IoUtxxyXhewaSgClho8w= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:1b0b:: with SMTP id l11mr12992077otl.162.1547831535257; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:12:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <2E8F9AF0-4A06-49DA-B70D-7CBEF0BFA3AF@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2E8F9AF0-4A06-49DA-B70D-7CBEF0BFA3AF@gmail.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:12:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Kathleen Moriarty Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d4da09057fbe9cf3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 17:12:19 -0000 --000000000000d4da09057fbe9cf3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure what you mean, Kathleen. This is a public mailing list :) On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:06 PM Kathleen Moriarty < kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Can that be a public thread? It really should be. > > Sent from my mobile device > > > On Jan 18, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Richard Barnes wrote: > > > > Let me provide some additional context. When the chairs and ADs > discussed this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within th= e > current charter of ACE =E2=80=94 after all, ACE is targeted at authentica= tion and > authorization, not key exchange. Since ACE would need to recharter to > accept this work in any case, and because EDHOC overlapped with the > interests of other working groups, it seemed to make sense to have the > conversation in a broader venue. > > > > G=C3=B6ran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated s= ummary > of the past discussion of this draft. Since this is a new audience, it > would be helpful if you could start from the underlying requirements (=E2= =80=9Cwe > need an AKE with certain constraints=E2=80=9D) and lay out why new protoc= ol work is > needed, vs. profiling existing protocols (as has been done, e.g., in DICE= ). > > > > If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange = a > virtual interim on this topic. > > > > =E2=80=94Richard > > > > > >> On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:17 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Kathleen, > >> > >> Good question. Thanks for bringing continuity to this almost 2 years > long offline discussion. Indeed, lack of comparison with other protocols > and formal verification were at the time the arguments for not following = up > the in-room consensus with an email confirmation. And, as you noted, that > is not the case anymore. > >> > >> Meanwhile the ACE chairs and AD have changed. My understanding is that > the argument now is about attracting more people with a certain security > competence for which perhaps another WG could potentially be better, henc= e > the request to Secdispatch. But I'll pass the question on and include the > ACE WG for transparency. > >> > >> From the authors' humble point of view we believe that the main missin= g > thing that would enable the required further discussion is that the IETF > endorses this work, no matter how, so that people dare invest more time i= n > implementation and analysis. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> G=C3=B6ran > >> > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-03, 00:58, "Kathleen Moriarty" < > kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and appreciate all = the work > you have done with the security proof and comparing to existing > standardized protocols. If ACE is interested, why is this going to > SECDispatch? It might help to understand that better. Is it that a > recharter would be needed? > >> > >> Thank you & happy new year! > >> Kathleen > >> > >> Sent from my mobile device > >> > >>> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander < > goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Secdispatch, > >>> > >>> We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe > >>> > >>> Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draft. The > problem statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1. In > brief, the target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for IoT > applications, which: > >>> a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives to enabl= e > low overhead and small code footprint; > >>> b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-end > security in IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and > >>> c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) that i= s > lacking a harmonizing key exchange protocol. > >>> > >>> These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device > deployments, but the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security > settings where the overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC > addresses these requirements and builds on the SIGMA construction for > Diffie-Hellman key exchanges. EDHOC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC > 7049) and COSE (RFC 8152) and the protocol messages may be transported wi= th > CoAP (RFC 7252). > >>> > >>> There has been a number of reviews of different versions of the draft= ; > both by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the security= . > A formal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a few > implementations of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has > expressed interest in this work in several f2f meetings. > >>> > >>> Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispatch to > consider this draft, or how we can help out in the process. > >>> > >>> Best regards > >>> G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Secdispatch mailing list > >>> Secdispatch@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch > >> > >> > > > --000000000000d4da09057fbe9cf3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not sure what you mean, Kathleen.=C2=A0 This is a public m= ailing list :)

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:06 PM Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Can that be a public thread?=C2=A0 It really should be.

Sent from my mobile device

> On Jan 18, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:=
>
> Let me provide some additional context.=C2=A0 When the chairs and ADs = discussed this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within the = current charter of ACE =E2=80=94 after all, ACE is targeted at authenticati= on and authorization, not key exchange.=C2=A0 Since ACE would need to recha= rter to accept this work in any case, and because EDHOC overlapped with the= interests of other working groups, it seemed to make sense to have the con= versation in a broader venue.
>
> G=C3=B6ran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated = summary of the past discussion of this draft.=C2=A0 Since this is a new aud= ience, it would be helpful if you could start from the underlying requireme= nts (=E2=80=9Cwe need an AKE with certain constraints=E2=80=9D) and lay out= why new protocol work is needed, vs. profiling existing protocols (as has = been done, e.g., in DICE).
>
> If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange= a virtual interim on this topic.
>
> =E2=80=94Richard
>
>
>> On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:17 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.= com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kathleen,
>>
>> Good question. Thanks for bringing continuity to this almost 2 yea= rs long offline discussion. Indeed, lack of comparison with other protocols= and formal verification were at the time the arguments for not following u= p the in-room consensus with an email confirmation. And, as you noted, that= is not the case anymore.
>>
>> Meanwhile the ACE chairs and AD have changed. My understanding is = that the argument now is about attracting more people with a certain securi= ty competence for which perhaps another WG could potentially be better, hen= ce the request to Secdispatch. But I'll pass the question on and includ= e the ACE WG for transparency.
>>
>> From the authors' humble point of view we believe that the mai= n missing thing that would enable the required further discussion is that t= he IETF endorses this work, no matter how, so that people dare invest more = time in implementation and analysis.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> G=C3=B6ran
>>
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-03, 00:58, "Kathleen Moriarty" <<= a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kathle= en.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and a= ppreciate all the work you have done with the security proof and comparing = to existing standardized protocols.=C2=A0 If ACE is interested, why is this= going to SECDispatch? It might help to understand that better.=C2=A0 Is it= that a recharter would be needed?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you & happy new year!
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent from my mobile device
>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@erics= son.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Secdispatch,
>>>
>>> We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace= -cose-ecdhe
>>>
>>> Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draf= t. The problem statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1= . In brief, the target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for = IoT applications, which:
>>> a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives t= o enable low overhead and small code footprint;
>>> b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-en= d security in IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and
>>> c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security)= that is lacking a harmonizing key exchange protocol.
>>>
>>> These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device dep= loyments, but the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security setti= ngs where the overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC addresses the= se requirements and builds on the SIGMA construction for Diffie-Hellman key= exchanges. EDHOC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC 7049) and COSE (RFC 8= 152) and the protocol messages may be transported with CoAP (RFC 7252).=C2= =A0
>>>
>>> There has been a number of reviews of different versions of th= e draft; both by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the s= ecurity. A formal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a few i= mplementations of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has expressed= interest in this work in several f2f meetings.
>>>
>>> Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispa= tch to consider this draft, or how we can help out in the process.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Secdispatch mailing list
>>> Secd= ispatch@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= secdispatch
>>
>>
>
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([2600:380:8d54:8c15:d4de:e39b:794d:169a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c71sm22343796qke.84.2019.01.18.09.15.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Jan 2019 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D39A2768-A2D3-4A56-B949-0455BEA817F3 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E216) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:15:02 -0500 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1055DC04-EABF-4C68-907C-1321F94F5227@gmail.com> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <2E8F9AF0-4A06-49DA-B70D-7CBEF0BFA3AF@gmail.com> To: Richard Barnes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 17:15:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D39A2768-A2D3-4A56-B949-0455BEA817F3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I thought it was a continuation of a private thread that may also ben= efit from transparency and additional input. Thank you, Kathleen=20 Sent from my mobile device > On Jan 18, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: >=20 > Not sure what you mean, Kathleen. This is a public mailing list :) >=20 >> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:06 PM Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> Can that be a public thread? It really should be. >>=20 >> Sent from my mobile device >>=20 >> > On Jan 18, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Richard Barnes wrote: >> >=20 >> > Let me provide some additional context. When the chairs and ADs discus= sed this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within the current= charter of ACE =E2=80=94 after all, ACE is targeted at authentication and a= uthorization, not key exchange. Since ACE would need to recharter to accept= this work in any case, and because EDHOC overlapped with the interests of o= ther working groups, it seemed to make sense to have the conversation in a b= roader venue. >> >=20 >> > G=C3=B6ran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated s= ummary of the past discussion of this draft. Since this is a new audience, i= t would be helpful if you could start from the underlying requirements (=E2=80= =9Cwe need an AKE with certain constraints=E2=80=9D) and lay out why new pro= tocol work is needed, vs. profiling existing protocols (as has been done, e.= g., in DICE). >> >=20 >> > If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange a= virtual interim on this topic. >> >=20 >> > =E2=80=94Richard >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >> On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:17 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: >> >>=20 >> >> Hi Kathleen, >> >>=20 >> >> Good question. Thanks for bringing continuity to this almost 2 years l= ong offline discussion. Indeed, lack of comparison with other protocols and f= ormal verification were at the time the arguments for not following up the i= n-room consensus with an email confirmation. And, as you noted, that is not t= he case anymore. >> >>=20 >> >> Meanwhile the ACE chairs and AD have changed. My understanding is that= the argument now is about attracting more people with a certain security co= mpetence for which perhaps another WG could potentially be better, hence the= request to Secdispatch. But I'll pass the question on and include the ACE W= G for transparency. >> >>=20 >> >> =46rom the authors' humble point of view we believe that the main miss= ing thing that would enable the required further discussion is that the IETF= endorses this work, no matter how, so that people dare invest more time in i= mplementation and analysis.=20 >> >>=20 >> >> Best regards, >> >> G=C3=B6ran >> >>=20 >> >>=20 >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-03, 00:58, "Kathleen Moriarty" wrote: >> >>=20 >> >> Hi, >> >>=20 >> >> I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and appreciate all t= he work you have done with the security proof and comparing to existing stan= dardized protocols. If ACE is interested, why is this going to SECDispatch?= It might help to understand that better. Is it that a recharter would be n= eeded? >> >>=20 >> >> Thank you & happy new year! >> >> Kathleen=20 >> >>=20 >> >> Sent from my mobile device >> >>=20 >> >>> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: >> >>>=20 >> >>> Dear Secdispatch, >> >>>=20 >> >>> We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe >> >>>=20 >> >>> Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draft. The p= roblem statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1. In brie= f, the target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for IoT applic= ations, which: >> >>> a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives to enabl= e low overhead and small code footprint;=20 >> >>> b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-end secur= ity in IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and >> >>> c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) that i= s lacking a harmonizing key exchange protocol. >> >>>=20 >> >>> These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device deployment= s, but the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security settings wher= e the overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC addresses these requir= ements and builds on the SIGMA construction for Diffie-Hellman key exchanges= . EDHOC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC 7049) and COSE (RFC 8152) and th= e protocol messages may be transported with CoAP (RFC 7252). =20 >> >>>=20 >> >>> There has been a number of reviews of different versions of the draft= ; both by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the security.= A formal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a few implementa= tions of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has expressed interest i= n this work in several f2f meetings. >> >>>=20 >> >>> Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispatch to c= onsider this draft, or how we can help out in the process. >> >>>=20 >> >>> Best regards >> >>> G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca >> >>>=20 >> >>>=20 >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Secdispatch mailing list >> >>> Secdispatch@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch >> >>=20 >> >>=20 >> >=20 --Apple-Mail-D39A2768-A2D3-4A56-B949-0455BEA817F3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I thought it was a continuation of a= private thread that may also benefit from transparency and additional input= .

Thank you,
Kathleen 

Sent from my mobile device

On Jan 18, 2019,= at 12:12 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:

No= t sure what you mean, Kathleen.  This is a public mailing list :)

On = Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:06 PM Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
Can that be a publ= ic thread?  It really should be.

Sent from my mobile device

> On Jan 18, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>
> Let me provide some additional context.  When the chairs and ADs d= iscussed this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within the cu= rrent charter of ACE =E2=80=94 after all, ACE is targeted at authentication a= nd authorization, not key exchange.  Since ACE would need to recharter t= o accept this work in any case, and because EDHOC overlapped with the intere= sts of other working groups, it seemed to make sense to have the conversatio= n in a broader venue.
>
> G=C3=B6ran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated s= ummary of the past discussion of this draft.  Since this is a new audie= nce, it would be helpful if you could start from the underlying requirements= (=E2=80=9Cwe need an AKE with certain constraints=E2=80=9D) and lay out why= new protocol work is needed, vs. profiling existing protocols (as has been d= one, e.g., in DICE).
>
> If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange a= virtual interim on this topic.
>
> =E2=80=94Richard
>
>
>> On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:17 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.co= m> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kathleen,
>>
>> Good question. Thanks for bringing continuity to this almost 2 year= s long offline discussion. Indeed, lack of comparison with other protocols a= nd formal verification were at the time the arguments for not following up t= he in-room consensus with an email confirmation. And, as you noted, that is n= ot the case anymore.
>>
>> Meanwhile the ACE chairs and AD have changed. My understanding is t= hat the argument now is about attracting more people with a certain security= competence for which perhaps another WG could potentially be better, hence t= he request to Secdispatch. But I'll pass the question on and include the ACE= WG for transparency.
>>
>> =46rom the authors' humble point of view we believe that the main m= issing thing that would enable the required further discussion is that the I= ETF endorses this work, no matter how, so that people dare invest more time i= n implementation and analysis.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> G=C3=B6ran
>>
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-03, 00:58, "Kathleen Moriarty" <kathleen.moriarty.= ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>   Hi,
>>
>>   I=E2=80=99ve read earlier versions of this draft and ap= preciate all the work you have done with the security proof and comparing to= existing standardized protocols.  If ACE is interested, why is this go= ing to SECDispatch? It might help to understand that better.  Is it tha= t a recharter would be needed?
>>
>>   Thank you & happy new year!
>>   Kathleen
>>
>>   Sent from my mobile device
>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsso= n.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Secdispatch,
>>>
>>> We have been advised to ask secdispatch to consider EDHOC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-co= se-ecdhe
>>>
>>> Those that follow the ACE WG should be familiar with this draft= . The problem statement and motivation for EDHOC is described in section 1. I= n brief, the target is a lightweight key exchange protocol suitable for IoT a= pplications, which:
>>> a) has small message size and reuses existing IoT primitives to= enable low overhead and small code footprint;
>>> b) is not bound to a particular transport, to enable end-to-end= security in IoT deployments with varying underlying layers; and
>>> c) can be used to key OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) t= hat is lacking a harmonizing key exchange protocol.
>>>
>>> These requirements are motivated by constrained IoT device depl= oyments, but the protocol is applicable to other end-to-end security setting= s where the overhead due to security needs to be low. EDHOC addresses these r= equirements and builds on the SIGMA construction for Diffie-Hellman key exch= anges. EDHOC, like OSCORE, is built on CBOR (RFC 7049) and COSE (RFC 8152) a= nd the protocol messages may be transported with CoAP (RFC 7252). 
= >>>
>>> There has been a number of reviews of different versions of the= draft; both by people who want to deploy it and by people analysing the sec= urity. A formal verification was presented at SSR 2018. There are a few impl= ementations of different versions of the draft. The ACE WG has expressed int= erest in this work in several f2f meetings.
>>>
>>> Please let us know if some information is missing for secdispat= ch to consider this draft, or how we can help out in the process.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> G=C3=B6ran, John, Francesca
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Secdispatch mailing list
>>> Secdi= spatch@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/se= cdispatch
>>
>>
>
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ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of mit.edu designates 18.9.28.11 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.9.28.11; helo=outgoing.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (18.9.28.11) by BY2NAM03FT053.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.84.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1471.13 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 17:27:18 +0000 Received: from kduck.mit.edu (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x0IHREpB022782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:27:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 11:27:14 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Richard Barnes CC: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , John Mattsson , Francesca Palombini , "ace@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR01MB4804 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 17:27:29 -0000 On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 11:54:58AM -0500, Richard Barnes wrote: > Let me provide some additional context. When the chairs and ADs discussed this in BKK, it seemed pretty clear that EDHOC is not within the current charter of ACE — after all, ACE is targeted at authentication and authorization, not key exchange. Since ACE would need to recharter to accept this work in any case, and because EDHOC overlapped with the interests of other working groups, it seemed to make sense to have the conversation in a broader venue. ACE's charter is ... messy. More below. > Göran: Your email starting this thread seems like an abbreviated summary of the past discussion of this draft. Since this is a new audience, it would be helpful if you could start from the underlying requirements (“we need an AKE with certain constraints”) and lay out why new protocol work is needed, vs. profiling existing protocols (as has been done, e.g., in DICE). There seem to be several interleaved issues at play, here, and I agree that some clear/consolidated background would be helpful. I particularly call out the security proof that has been presented elsewhere, which I think would be interesting to several readers (but I don't have the link handy). Some thoughts of my own... There is clear demand for a lightweight key-exchange protocol for use in IoT protocols, especially OSCORE. EDHOC has been around for a while, and even discussed in ACE with some frequency. That said, there are several reasons to prefer asking secdispatch to just calling for adoption in ACE directly, including but not limited to: (a) designing secure authenticated key exchange protocols is hard! It takes a lot of energy from smart people to design and analyze a protocol to have confidence that it is secure and fulfils the advertised functions. Starting from well-known/well-analyzed foundations like SIGMA is a great start, but hardly a guarantee of success. Secdispatch gets us some better visibility, and insight into where work can be done that will have sufficient expertise (both within and outside the IETF, as well as what has been done already vs. what remains to be done) to be confident in the result. (b) ACE has a pretty complicated charter, that seems to place restrictions on how it can adopt new protocol work without rechartering. We find things in the charter like "existing authentication and authorization protocols will be evaluated and used where applicable [...]. Some functionality, however, may not be available in existing protocols, in which case the solution may involve new protocol work." This would seem to require a clear criteria for how to determine whether or not existing technology is applicable, plus evidence that existing protocols do not meet the bar. In particular, "make the key exchange messages as small as possible" is not a clear criterion, as that would always argue for a new protocol over an existing one, as we come up with new ways to eke out space. (c) A clear and substantial difference between key exchange/handshake size between EDHOC and even minimized DLTS could be compelling enough for secdispatch to decide that the work is usable, and find an appropriate home, independently of the question of rechartering ACE and meeting the additional barrier described in the previous point. Jim and several others have done some good work looking into tabulating message overheads in various scenarios (e.g., https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1156483/FULLTEXT01.pdf, https://jimsch.github.io/randomDrafts/draft-schaad-ace-tls-cbor-handshake.html) that will be helpful as we consider this topic. In addition to just comparing the byte count for handshake/key exhchange messages in various methods, it would probably also be good to think about things in terms of the constraints in the current ACE charter. That is, someone could (1) pick a (class of) device(s), (2) show that it has wide deployment/potential thereof, (3) give hard numbers about what it's (not) capable of, and (4) show that DTLS falls on the wrong side of that cutoff, using the handshake numbers we already have. In particular, I don't remember seeing anything touching on (3), previously. An analysis like this would not only give some context for interpreting the gap between EDHOC and DLTS, but could also be compelling in support of the need for the more lightweight solution. > If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrange a virtual > interim on this topic. That seems likely to be useful, though I suppose we should wait to see more indication that people would show up and have a productive discussion. -Ben From nobody Tue Jan 22 14:32:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23238131165; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 14:32:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: rdd@cert.org, secdispatch@ietf.org, kaduk@mit.edu, secdispatch-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154819635909.13222.15956524914790184649.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 14:32:39 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] secdispatch - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 22:32:39 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Roman Danyliw, a Chair of the secdispatch working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Security Dispatch Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Roman Danyliw Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dispatch ace dots perc acme mls saag Second Priority: tls mile People who must be present: Eric Rescorla Roman Danyliw Richard Barnes Benjamin Kaduk Resources Requested: Special Requests: Ideally this session wouldn't conflict with any security area meetings; and would be early in the week. Previous Monday or Tuesday slots worked well. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jan 22 15:03:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB74131191; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 15:03:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id peB3hkT44Pam; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 15:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1295713118E; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 15:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from delp.sei.cmu.edu (delp.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.31]) by taper.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x0MN3FIL030046; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 18:03:15 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 taper.sei.cmu.edu x0MN3FIL030046 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cert.org; s=yc2bmwvrj62m; t=1548198195; bh=9yHA5+DplmD+8cO7ksYUQwUwdQ+VtSygRZMjdi8vUg8=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=rM/WFgnRl2m7nhufJouVGM/0jbJwBz7aqKlcp1b6kuCpRh0TWJx9VW9uTTvVixQvb HgH3bI3Yi6nyNdX3THey514B1daUOj2KogC7nkjZmUb6B4T15hOD9Ch2KPYjveoGpr 0ivMPl8jLXeIMtDvsN62wETEgv38uOJEWFhzZVGA= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by delp.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x0MN3D92033665; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 18:03:13 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 18:03:13 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: Benjamin Kaduk , Richard Barnes CC: "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "ace@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "Francesca Palombini" , John Mattsson Thread-Topic: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC Thread-Index: AQHUou5Zx1xiDx+jgESY4I5hUyszWqWc++KAgAH8Z4CAFrLCAIAACQQAgAZMFFA= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 23:03:12 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 23:03:22 -0000 DQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IEFjZSBbbWFpbHRvOmFjZS1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgQmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWsNCj4gU2VudDogRnJp ZGF5LCBKYW51YXJ5IDE4LCAyMDE5IDEyOjI3IFBNDQo+IFRvOiBSaWNoYXJkIEJhcm5lcyA8cmxi QGlwdi5zeD4NCj4gQ2M6IHNlY2Rpc3BhdGNoQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbQWNl XSBbU2VjZGlzcGF0Y2hdIEVESE9DDQo+IA0KPiBPbiBGcmksIEphbiAxOCwgMjAxOSBhdCAxMTo1 NDo1OEFNIC0wNTAwLCBSaWNoYXJkIEJhcm5lcyB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBJZiBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBo ZWxwZnVsIHRvIGtlZXAgdGhpcyBtb3ZpbmcsIHdlIGNvdWxkIGNlcnRhaW5seSBhcnJhbmdlDQo+ ID4gYSB2aXJ0dWFsIGludGVyaW0gb24gdGhpcyB0b3BpYy4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYXQgc2VlbXMgbGlr ZWx5IHRvIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCwgdGhvdWdoIEkgc3VwcG9zZSB3ZSBzaG91bGQgd2FpdCB0byBzZWUg bW9yZQ0KPiBpbmRpY2F0aW9uIHRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIHdvdWxkIHNob3cgdXAgYW5kIGhhdmUgYSBw cm9kdWN0aXZlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24uDQoNCklNTywgdGhlIGNvbW1vbiB0aHJlYWQgYmV0d2VlbiBi b3RoIG9mIHRoZXNlIHByYWN0aWNhbCBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucyBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBjb21wbGV4aXR5 IG9mIHRoZSB0b3BpYyBjYW4ndCBlbnRpcmVseSBmaXQgaW50byB0aGUgdGltZSB0aGF0IHdvdWxk IGJlIGFsbG90dGVkIGR1cmluZyBzZWNkaXNwYXRjaCBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIElFVEYgMTA0IG1lZXRp bmcuICBMZXQncyBzdGFydCB0aGlzIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiBvbiBsaXN0IG5vdy4NCg0KUm9tYW4N Cg== From nobody Tue Jan 22 15:09:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEB313118E for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 23:09:42 -0000 SGkhDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogU2VjZGlzcGF0Y2gg W21haWx0bzpzZWNkaXNwYXRjaC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YNCj4gR8O2 cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVyDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSmFudWFyeSAwMiwgMjAxOSA1OjU2IFBN DQo+IFRvOiBzZWNkaXNwYXRjaEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBDYzogRnJhbmNlc2NhIFBhbG9tYmluaSA8 ZnJhbmNlc2NhLnBhbG9tYmluaUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20+OyBKb2huDQo+IE1hdHRzc29uIDxqb2hu Lm1hdHRzc29uQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4NCj4gU3ViamVjdDogW1NlY2Rpc3BhdGNoXSBFREhPQw0K PiANCj4gV2UgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGFkdmlzZWQgdG8gYXNrIHNlY2Rpc3BhdGNoIHRvIGNvbnNpZGVy IEVESE9DOg0KPiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtc2VsYW5kZXItYWNl LWNvc2UtZWNkaGUNCg0KW3NuaXBdDQoNCj4gVGhlcmUgaGFzIGJlZW4gYSBudW1iZXIgb2YgcmV2 aWV3cyBvZiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdmVyc2lvbnMgb2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0OyBib3RoDQo+IGJ5IHBlb3Bs ZSB3aG8gd2FudCB0byBkZXBsb3kgaXQgYW5kIGJ5IHBlb3BsZSBhbmFseXNpbmcgdGhlIHNlY3Vy aXR5LiBBDQo+IGZvcm1hbCB2ZXJpZmljYXRpb24gd2FzIHByZXNlbnRlZCBhdCBTU1IgMjAxOC4g DQoNClRvIHNhdmUgb3RoZXJzIHRoZSBzZWFyY2ggdGltZSwgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhl IHJlZmVyZW5jZSBvbiBhIGZvcm1hbCB2ZXJpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgRURIT0M6DQoNCkJydW5pIEEu LCBTYWhsIErDuHJnZW5zZW4gVC4sIEdyw7huYmVjaCBQZXRlcnNlbiBULiwgU2Now7xybWFubiBD LiAoMjAxOCkgRm9ybWFsIFZlcmlmaWNhdGlvbiBvZiBFcGhlbWVyYWwgRGlmZmllLUhlbGxtYW4g T3ZlciBDT1NFIChFREhPQykuIEluOiBDcmVtZXJzIEMuLCBMZWhtYW5uIEEuIChlZHMpIFNlY3Vy aXR5IFN0YW5kYXJkaXNhdGlvbiBSZXNlYXJjaC4gU1NSIDIwMTguIExlY3R1cmUgTm90ZXMgaW4g Q29tcHV0ZXIgU2NpZW5jZSwgdm9sIDExMzIyLiBTcHJpbmdlciwgQ2hhbQ0KDQpodHRwczovL2xp bmsuc3ByaW5nZXIuY29tL2NvbnRlbnQvcGRmLzEwLjEwMDclMkY5NzgtMy0wMzAtMDQ3NjItN18y LnBkZg0KDQpSb21hbg0K From nobody Wed Jan 23 08:32:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121AB130E9B for ; 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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 08:31:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> From: Richard Barnes Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:31:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Roman Danyliw Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "ace@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041a7e4058022a1a5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:31:50 -0000 --00000000000041a7e4058022a1a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Summing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like what folks are asking for is either: 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS), or 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AKE) G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points? It seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual interim time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument. --Richard On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 6:03 PM Roman Danyliw wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 12:27 PM > > To: Richard Barnes > > Cc: secdispatch@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC > > > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 11:54:58AM -0500, Richard Barnes wrote: > > > If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly arrang= e > > > a virtual interim on this topic. > > > > That seems likely to be useful, though I suppose we should wait to see > more > > indication that people would show up and have a productive discussion. > > IMO, the common thread between both of these practical suggestions is tha= t > the complexity of the topic can't entirely fit into the time that would b= e > allotted during secdispatch during the IETF 104 meeting. Let's start thi= s > conversation on list now. > > Roman > --00000000000041a7e4058022a1a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Summing up where I believe the conversation stands no= w, it seems like what folks are asking for is either:

<= div>1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE (= e.g., IKE or TLS), or
2. An argument that a new AKE is necess= ary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AKE)

G=C3=B6= ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points?

I= t seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual inte= rim time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument.
=

--Richard

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 6:03 PM Roma= n Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 12:27 PM
> To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
> Cc: secdispa= tch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 11:54:58AM -0500, Richard Barnes wrote:
> > If it would be helpful to keep this moving, we could certainly ar= range
> > a virtual interim on this topic.
>
> That seems likely to be useful, though I suppose we should wait to see= more
> indication that people would show up and have a productive discussion.=

IMO, the common thread between both of these practical suggestions is that = the complexity of the topic can't entirely fit into the time that would= be allotted during secdispatch during the IETF 104 meeting.=C2=A0 Let'= s start this conversation on list now.

Roman
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s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cXFtMw57pTxpUjtYQiz6/E6e4It0hZD0pJ/xcVK8w6E=; b=sZtCoBwx23Am1RCGMBaIP9EH0GNU1E6SpKlirORpBNwKSSORK+AOngt5Wts7zORuv4 lIeb3zeWpEGF+poBJqjj6aTLwEYOxWASznUjZZkewhJqlUXSBIVZutOTe4oIcVNpGHAO tXCYX4HUvHmI3o+IpraEpQq32WiwNN7Fkkwz/bjq3Ku0Lg/4+gQ9SPu78O2c4M2VKGoX iaIIo09L1niilxqgH5AAv57XvaexhLBd5nIabuLtDye+HOvRnaw1bfrPPweoCUy0B/CT vNxZ/9Xb4m9cUYw3bGKYRyXpRoq7UZ+W/z77lOhf1pNYUDUpOLL5106kVUw20vfDsCe5 e6yQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cXFtMw57pTxpUjtYQiz6/E6e4It0hZD0pJ/xcVK8w6E=; b=tcL8q0pCIRrCIqmhKIWX2lYsnHwprq8LgH2wpf0DqIPlitduxZM5yj9xNu6OIsZ0eJ C5pxFHrEMUMHhUc5UjbwHJTI9/5zeVErEm7NlDefmC89s4HJyQt9uX07au4oUxieUPQp aMgQATzJptlD9kDOjJsasHvZNeUUgzrhBDwe/V0ahDn09py7K2GQzvaFgzKOcIlzoIHs Ci57U6B8e1AuPHyhmrkFJZ+L3Nflnq4utCUKe8rZl4ncgDEIITq3Uk+V7qIFMS+jjDrV zBR/0hQ2BMijqddZwkAjiHZB3kVOsL6SyBA/90/gkENIUGDTImYOky70DNsiBnYklRa9 rLKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcXNSt+LcVeZUbFQyoOih6cdeaXurtgCmgwyNqPirHNMoaYsE9B QA7h0HHwh8Ix6oeBx8M2zizQL/3Id0x6SFkBIBYbtg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7tDHO1mslY1okcpvgHpi95V1Qh9dyrGVsDdNIlJCEs0tlRIz6B+pMpmEvH9kg3pCCHPuJ/aJhGufGQIFdibS8= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:1715:: with SMTP id i21mr5201242ota.149.1548357369966; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:16:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> <05C8AB73-EFD1-4AC8-A795-D3624153F4D2@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <05C8AB73-EFD1-4AC8-A795-D3624153F4D2@ericsson.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:15:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Cc: Richard Barnes , Roman Danyliw , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005b4580580390b25" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 19:16:13 -0000 --00000000000005b4580580390b25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the very helpful message, Goran. A couple of comments inline. On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > Hi Richard, Roman, all > > > > Thanks for kind welcome and for progressing the discussion. Apologies for > a long email. > > > > *From: *Richard Barnes > > > > Summing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like wha= t > folks are asking for is either: > > > > 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE > (e.g., IKE or TLS), or > > > > 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an > existing AKE) > > > > G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points? > > > > Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to this later in this email. > > > > It seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual > interim time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument. > > > > Agree. > Anything to prevent further hold ups on this work would be appreciated. > > > --Richard > > > > As requested in a previous email, here is a background. > > > > The work on EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentication and key > exchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) optimized > for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied within the > IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security= ), > but also requested by other SDOs and industry fora such as OMA Specworks, > Open Connectivity Foundation and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of > OSCORE motivating its use include: support for CoAP forward proxies, > support for change of underlying transports including non-IP, low overhea= d, > low additional footprint and memory to existing CoAP implementations, > support for multicast security, security for end-to-end REST. > > > > Given the large interest in OSCORE already before it has become an RFC we > anticipate a wide range of deployments. For example, we see an interest f= or > OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the cellular air interfa= ce > control channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, but not necessarily > end-to-end IP between an application server and a cellular device. Or > between an application server and a device behind a cellular gateway. > Comparing just these two cases, the difference in capabilities of the > devices can be significant which makes it difficult to point at some sort > of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80=9D for benchmarking. > > > > In order to support the low end use cases the AKE must be performant in > low bandwidth deployments with battery powered devices restricted in RAM > and ROM. Message sizes and round trips have a direct impact on latency, > power consumption and battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is th= e > reason for this being a commonly used metric. While it may be more > difficult to compare memory and storage requirements, the ability to reus= e > existing code is an important indication. If a device can support a CoAP > stack (in the sense of memory and flash, etc) it is expected to also be > able to support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirable that a device with CoA= P > and OSCORE implemented should be able to support an additional AKE. > Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR and COSE primitives from OSCORE the > additional code for EDHOC can be very limited. > > > > From a security point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints have > agreed on a Master Secret with a good amount of randomness, and each > other=E2=80=99s Sender IDs, and those must be different for a given Maste= r Secret. > > > > Now returning to the questions. > > > > 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE > (e.g., IKE or TLS) > > > > Considering EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly analysed and > verified against all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman sent a mail to > the secdispatch list referencing a paper presented at SSR 2018 which coul= d > be used as a starting point. How do folks want to digest this: Do they wa= nt > to study the model themselves or should we ask the authors if they could > present their work at the interim? > > > > 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an > existing AKE) > > > > We have done this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and what on= ce > seemed like a reasonable question has turned out to be never ending > exercise. I do not want to get into IETF archeology but for those who hav= e > not followed the discussion some data points could be relevant. > > > > Not long ago, the design of security protocols did not take into account > constrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we showed that the message overhead > could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1.2 records. Before this > comparison it was believed that the record layer was performing well, the= n > the difference in overhead was characterized as insignificant, and then > finally a compact format was designed for DTLS 1.3. > > > > With EDHOC we showed that the message overhead of the key exchange can be > reduced with up to a factor 4 compared to the current version of DTLS 1.3 > (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise it was believed that the > TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the difference in overhead w= as > characterized as insignificant, and now the discussion has shifted to > downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol. > > > > We are not against optimizations to the TLS handshake, just as we welcome > the more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed to be an AKE > for OSCORE optimized for constrained environments. As I remember, > optimizing for message overhead was an explicit non-requirement of TLS 1.= 3. > Reverting those design decisions seems like the wrong way to go: One reas= on > to use TLS would be to reuse an existing implementation. But existing TLS > implementation would most likely not compare favorably in terms of code > size and RAM. Adding code for compression or re-encoding of the messages > would add to that. Re-specifying the protocol with the new encoding may > require a new formal verification. To make a more compact code and > processing may involve two incompatible message formats of TLS depending = on > what is being signed. New implementations would be needed. > > > > We think we have done our part of the comparison exercise and that the > burden of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that claim to > have a more performant key exchange protocol for OSCORE and are prepared = to > do the work to make that plausible and provide the numbers? To be clear: = if > there is another key exchange protocol suitable for OSCORE which > outperforms EDHOC in constrained characteristics and then we are very > interested. > I agree with Goran that they have jumped through enough hoops at this point. However, if alternatives come forward, understanding their timelines is also critical as not to hold up this work for any substantial amount of time. > > And again, with the statements in this mail we neither want to belittle > the considerable effort made on formal verification, nor claim that DTLS = is > not fit for IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in our IoT securit= y > toolbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a hammer. > The class of IoT device seems to be the critical point here and having one protocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but not realistic from the comparison numbers provided and the varying requirements in the IoT space. Best regards, Kathleen > > > > G=C3=B6ran > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000005b4580580390b25 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the very helpful message, Gora= n.=C2=A0 A couple of comments inline.

<= div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Richard, Roman, all

=C2=A0

Thanks for kind welcome and for progress= ing the discussion. Apologies for a long email.

=C2=A0

From: Richar= d Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>

<= /u>=C2=A0

Summ= ing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like what folk= s are asking for is either:

<= /u>=C2=A0

  1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equival= ent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS), or

    2. =C2=A0

2. A= n argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AK= E)

=C2=A0

G=C3= =B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points?

=C2=A0

Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to t= his later in this email.

<= /u>=C2=A0

It s= eems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual interim= time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Agree.


Anything to prevent further hold= ups on this work would be appreciated.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--Ri= chard

=C2=A0

As requested in a previous email, here i= s a background.

=C2= =A0

The work on EDHOC is motivated by the ne= ed for an authentication and key exchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-c= ore-object-security) optimized for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OS= CORE is applied within the IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-secur= ity), but also requested by other SDOs and industry fora such as OMA Specwo= rks, Open Connectivity Foundation and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of = OSCORE motivating its use include: support for CoAP forward proxies, support for change of underlying transpo= rts including non-IP, low overhead, low additional footprint and memory to = existing CoAP implementations, support for multicast security, security for= end-to-end REST.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Given the large interest in OSCORE alrea= dy before it has become an RFC we anticipate a wide range of deployments. F= or example, we see an interest for OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic runn= ing over the cellular air interface control channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, but not = necessarily end-to-end IP between an application server and a cellular devi= ce. Or between an application server and a device behind a cellular gateway= . Comparing just these two cases, the difference in capabilities of the devices can be significant which mak= es it difficult to point at some sort of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80= =9D for benchmarking.

=C2= =A0

In order to support the low end use case= s the AKE must be performant in low bandwidth deployments with battery powe= red devices restricted in RAM and ROM.=C2=A0= Message sizes and round trips have a direct impact on latency, power consumption a= nd battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is the reason for this bei= ng a commonly used metric. While it may be more difficult to compare memory= and storage requirements, the ability to reuse existing code is an important indication. If a device can support= a CoAP stack (in the sense of memory and flash, etc) it is expected to als= o be able to support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirable that a device with = CoAP and OSCORE implemented should be able to support an additional AKE. Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR a= nd COSE primitives from OSCORE the additional code for EDHOC can be very li= mited.

=C2= =A0

From a secu= rity point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints have agreed on a Mast= er Secret with a good amount of randomness, and each other=E2=80=99s Sender= IDs, and those must be different for a given Master Secret.<= /span>

=C2= =A0

Now returni= ng to the questions.

<= /u>=C2=A0

  1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equival= ent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS)

=C2=A0

Considering EDHOC is a new protocol it s= hould be thoroughly analysed and verified against all currently known issue= s of AKEs. Roman sent a mail to the secdispatch list referencing a paper pr= esented at SSR 2018 which could be used as a starting point. How do folks want to digest this:= Do they want to study the model themselves or should we ask the authors if= they could present their work at the interim?

=C2=A0

2. A= n argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AK= E)

=C2= =A0

We have don= e this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and what once seemed like a reasonable question has t= urned out to be never ending exercise. I do not want to get into IETF arche= ology but for those who have not followed the discussion some data points could be relevant.

=C2=A0

Not long ago, the design of security pro= tocols did not take into account constrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we sh= owed that the message overhead could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to D= TLS 1.2 records. Before this comparison it was believed that the record layer was performin= g well, then the difference in overhead was characterized as insignificant,= and then finally a compact format was designed for DTLS 1.3.=

=C2=A0

With EDHOC we showed that the message ov= erhead of the key exchange can be reduced with up to a factor 4 compared to= the current version of DTLS 1.3 (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exe= rcise it was believed that the TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the difference in ov= erhead was characterized as insignificant, and now the discussion has shift= ed to downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol.<= /span>

=C2=A0

We are not against optimizations to the = TLS handshake, just as we welcome the more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TL= S was not designed to be an AKE for OSCORE optimized for constrained enviro= nments. As I remember, optimizing for message overhead was an explicit non-requirement of TLS 1.3= . Reverting those design decisions seems like the wrong way to go: One reas= on to use TLS would be to reuse an existing implementation. But existing TL= S implementation would most likely not compare favorably in terms of code size and RAM. Adding code for compr= ession or re-encoding of the messages would add to that. Re-specifying the = protocol with the new encoding may require a new formal verification. To ma= ke a more compact code and processing may involve two incompatible message formats of TLS depending on what is b= eing signed. New implementations would be needed.

=C2=A0

We think we have done our part of the comparison exercise an= d that the burden of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that = claim to have a more performant key exchange protocol for OSCORE and are prepared to do the work to make that plausible and provide the num= bers? To be clear: if there is anothe= r key exchange protocol suitable for OSCORE which outperforms EDHOC in cons= trained characteristics and then we are very interested.


I agree with Goran that th= ey have jumped through enough hoops at this point.=C2=A0 However, if altern= atives come forward, understanding their timelines is also critical as not = to hold up this work for any substantial amount of time.=C2=A0
=

= =C2=A0

And again= , with the statements in this mail we neither want to belittle the consider= able effort made on formal verification, nor claim that DTLS is not fit for= IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in our IoT security toolbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a ham= mer.


The= class of IoT device seems to be the critical point here and having one pro= tocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but not realistic from the co= mparison numbers provided and the varying requirements in the IoT space.

Best regards,
Kathleen

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

G=C3=B6ran

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--00000000000005b4580580390b25-- From nobody Thu Jan 24 22:38:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C646412D4EC for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:38:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l98HPde-Kkuk for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C525129508 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:38:25 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:38:22 -0800 Message-ID: <00ae01d4b478$92fa9d40$b8efd7c0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdS0aYd+IIiEJdHOSfGMDJ3y6un6LAADvM8A Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] FW: EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 06:38:34 -0000 Send it to the right mailing list. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 9:08 PM To: 'secdir@ietf.org' Subject: EDHOC and Transports Someplace over the set of messages which I recently scanned one of the questions was what were the constrained restrictions that we were looking at as part of the evaluation process. There are three that I will highlight even though I am only able to provide any type of quantification for two of them: 1. Low-power devices that either are battery based or scavenge power, these devices pay a power penalty for every byte of data sent and thus have a desire for the smallest messages possible. 2. CoAP over SMS: SMS has a 140 byte packet size. There are two approaches for dealing with packets of larger than 140 bytes: 1) There is a method of appending multiple packets together to form a single larger packet. 2) You can use CoAP blockwise transfer. Using CoAP blockwise would result in 128 byte packets for the underlying transfer assuming that only 12 bytes are needed for the CoAP header itself. 3. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4: This has a packet size of 127 bytes. The maximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes allowing for 102 bytes of message space. If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for CoAP then this means a protocol packet size of 82 bytes. If one needs to break the message across multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to be 64 bytes using CoAP blockwise options. There are of course two additional transports which are to be considered IPV4 UDP and IPV6 UDP. Both of these transports have a packet size which is sufficiently large to hold a any given message using TLS or EDHOC. Jim From nobody Fri Jan 25 06:14:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA2B129A87 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 06:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ZUeJibac2OW for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 06:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr150070.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.15.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41D92128BCC for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR0801MB1437; H:VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: zqqUS+cbjhuGR/zxNqv0Ft875g71WhJimi2Acc/gU5I1CcDvheoYbDWk2C1GxIZeN+6CJc0UsTMwxemQRgtpotFK+CFeHz0EXJ9QHy3ZZOSH8ThN5E6ZXffy7E4Y8yO6akdq8xXDFzVpdZS7ZOCOR8aNvLWh5EckYKpyvpDRhu6tgzK980G6r+edfNCvGyjSHQe3NnMmYoo2W0xiaTHr3Jd6PJ2AVgDxEbRXVE2RFYj17ITqnWhMvoHGBuKna7HzQM7rA3t0p0mowuL1TvhgrjhkSGEO/CXFpf0Q9owPv9LBdUtGKRlYkngXuuqghRXUxPYqtbYp0sGFFO6BBURo9E/Hg3Tsaepz/yKI4Q0aOrQp6n6naMwyxaFsE4EfbA6YO55UUoZ4hIfj15HXq2PoMb12YKVSDr3LCK7tvCPMBEY= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ad6ab49e-ebf6-48c2-741e-08d682cf6c64 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Jan 2019 14:14:30.6148 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0801MB1437 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 14:14:38 -0000 Fwd to SecDispatch since it was only posted on the SecDir list -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 14:07 To: Hannes Tschofenig ; Jim Schaad ; secdir@ietf.org Subject: RE: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports A minor follow-up: I mentioned that I am aware of a company using the energ= y scavenging devices and it turns out that this information is actually pub= lic and there is even a short video on YouTube. The company we worked with = is called Alphatronics and here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch= ?v=3DJHpJV_CPYb4 As you can hear in the video we have been using our Mbed OS together with o= ur device management solution (LwM2M with DTLS and CoAP) for these types of= devices. Ciao Hannes -----Original Message----- From: secdir On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 13:52 To: Jim Schaad ; secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports Hi Jim, what we are doing here is making an optimization. For some (unknown reason)= we have focused our attention to the over-the-wire transmission overhead (= not code size, RAM utilization, or developer usability*). We are doing this= optimization mostly based on information about what other people tell us r= ather than based on our experience. The problem is that we have too few peo= ple with hands-on knowledge and/or deployment experience and if they have t= hat experience they may not like to talk about it. So, we are stepping arou= nd in the dark and mostly perceived problems. Having said that I would like to provide a few remarks to your list below: 1. Low-power devices that either are battery based or scavenge power, thes= e devices pay a power penalty for every byte of data sent and thus have a d= esire for the smallest messages possible. [Hannes] Low power is a very complex topic since it is a system issue and b= oiling it down to the transmission overhead of every byte is an oversimplif= ication. You are making certain assumptions of how power consumption of rad= io technologies work, which will be hard to verify. I have been working on = power measurements recently (but only focused on power measurements of cryp= to, see https://community.arm.com/arm-research/b/articles/posts/testing-cry= pto-performance-and-power-consumption). I doubt that many people on this li= st nor in the IETF have a lot of experience in this field to use this as a = basic for an optimization. My co-workers, who are active in this space, tell me that there is nothing = like a "per byte" linear relationship (for small quantities of data) in ter= ms of energy cost. Obviously if you trigger "an additional transmission", w= hich requires you to ramp up a PLL, turn on radio amplifiers, send lengthy = preambles etc then the incremental cost of sending 64 bytes in that packet = vs 16 bytes might be immeasurable small. The critical thing appears to be = how long the RF amplifiers are powered on. Hence, you will often see public= ations that tell you that waiting for incoming packets is actually the most= expensive task (in terms of power consumption). When it comes to energy scavenging devices then it becomes even more challe= nging since this is a more rarely used case. I know about one company doing= this and I have spoken with a researchers at last year's Arm research summ= it who show-cased one device. The device shown by the researcher was a prot= otype and didn't use any Internet protocol nor a security mechanism. I woul= dn't call myself knowledgeable enough to optimize a system based on this ex= perience but maybe you have more expertise in this field. I am happy to lea= rn more. 2. CoAP over SMS: SMS has a 140 byte packet size. There are two approache= s for dealing with packets of larger than 140 bytes: 1) There is a method = of appending multiple packets together to form a single larger packet. 2) = You can use CoAP blockwise transfer. Using CoAP blockwise would result in = 128 byte packets for the underlying transfer assuming that only 12 bytes ar= e needed for the CoAP header itself. [Hannes] It turns out that CoAP over SMS is rarely used for delivering data= of IP-based devices since SMS is a pretty expensive transport. From my wor= k in the OMA I know that people use SMS to trigger the wake-up of devices a= nd then switch to regular data transmission over IP. IMHO optimizing for us= e cases that barely anyone uses appears to be a waste of time. 3. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4: This has a packet size of 127 bytes. The ma= ximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes allowing for 102 bytes of message space. If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for CoAP then this means a protocol packet size of 82 bytes. If one needs to break the message across= multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to be 64 bytes using = CoAP blockwise options. [Hannes] For some reason there seems to be the worry that a small MTU size = at the link layer will cause a lot of problems. There are some radios that = have this small MTU size, IEEE 802.15.4 and Bluetooth Low Energy belong to = them. It turns out, however, that higher layers then offer fragmentation an= d reassembly support so that higher layers just don't get to see any of thi= s. In IEEE 802.15.4 this fragmentation & reassembly support is offered by 6= lowpan and in case of Bluetooth Low Energy the link layer actually consists= of various sub-protocols. One of them offers fragmentation & reassembly. A= s such, the problem you describe is actually not a problem. There is no rea= son why you always have to put a single application layer payload into a si= ngle link layer frame. We have been using LwM2M (which uses DTLS and CoAP) over IEEE 802.15.4 netw= orks successfully for big commercial deployments. We have not run into prob= lems with the smaller MTU size at the lower layers. The handshake itself is= just a very small part of the overall size of data that gets transmitted d= uring the lifetime of the device since the handshake obviously happens extr= emely rarely. There are much better ways to optimize traffic and you obviou= sly have to look at all the data you are transmitting for the device. Ciao Hannes *: In my experience the ability for developers to easily use any of the per= formance optimization techniques is the biggest barrier for gaining perform= ance. Of course, this does not fit nicely in any of the standardization eff= orts in the IETF so the focus has to be somewhere else. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. _______________________________________________ secdir mailing list secdir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. From nobody Fri Jan 25 10:31:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44259131016 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:31:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KfO22cT__V1t for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F071D13100F for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:30:59 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: References: <00ac01d4b46c$00f9de30$02ed9a90$@augustcellars.com> <23627.7865.796955.746573@fireball.acr.fi> In-Reply-To: <23627.7865.796955.746573@fireball.acr.fi> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:30:57 -0800 Message-ID: <00c201d4b4dc$1ea67fe0$5bf37fa0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQISHjo9/BRwb3VmC0XN/Msem1f46wMYsmVapSy2FtA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:31:28 -0000 Move to the list I meant it to be on. -----Original Message----- From: Tero Kivinen Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 6:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: secdir@ietf.org Subject: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports Jim Schaad writes: > 3. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4: This has a packet size of 127 bytes. > The maximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes allowing for 102 bytes of message > space. If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for CoAP then this means a > protocol packet size of 82 bytes. If one needs to break the message > across multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to be 64 > bytes using CoAP blockwise options. IEEE 802.15.9 which provides framework for providing key management for IEEE 802.15.4 do provide its own fragmentation and reassembly service, thus allows bigger packets to delivered between devices. When 802.15.9 was being specified we saw that support for larger packets in KMP is needed than what 802.15.4 provides (note, that in some cases the phy layer limits the packet size even more), and thats why we did define a fragmentation and reassembly protocol there too. Currently specified key management protocols for 802.15.9 include 802.1X/MKA, HIP, IKEv2, PANA, Dragonfly, 802.11/4WH, 802.11/GKH, ETSI TS 102 887-2. Someone would need to write specification how to use EDHOC over 802.15.9 to make it usable there too. Another omission in the KMPs provided by the 802.15.9 is the TLS, as nobody wanted to write that specification. In the IEEE there is some plans of doing amendment to the 802.15.9 which could include some new key management protocols, depending who would be interesting to write the text... -- kivinen@iki.fi