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Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:00:52 +0300
From: Jari Arkko <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab
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Hi,

Who is updating the team page
(http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
It is missing at least three directly relevant
ones:

  HTTP Authentication with EAP
  http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt

  Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt

  Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive Nonces
  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt

Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
briefly discuss one of the drafts
(http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).

Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...

Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
is spread over in different places. Can we do
something about this? Is everything covered?)

[Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
[Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
[Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
[Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
[Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
[Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
[Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt

DRAFT  WG            AREA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
[Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
[Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
[Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
[Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security protocol
[Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
[Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP

There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
establish security for the media sessions.

Jari Arkko
Ericsson

_______________________________________________
Sip-security mailing list
Sip-security@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security


From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Thu Aug  2 10:40:44 2001
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To: Jari Arkko <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
Cc: brian.rosen@marconi.com, jari@arkko.com, jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com,
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Jari,

Thanks for compiling this list. There is clearly a
lot of common ground amongst many of these drafts,
and it seems clear that some of us feel that
taking a neutral/extensible approach to the
various authentication mechanisms may be the
right overall approach (myself, HTTP EAP, the
carrara draft). 

It seems to me that we may well have a critical
mass of drafts which define the various
requirements and make first pass attempts to solve
various pieces of the overall solution.  If we can
manage to agree upon a clear set of priorities and
a baseline for interoperability, I think we can
merge many of these drafts together into a more
coherent whole. I personally am attracted to the
HTTP EAP draft as well as the Carrara draft as
they provide what my draft did not attempt to
solve other than some handwaving for example's
sake. 

Henning has drafted an initial note on relative
prioritization which I think we can use as the
basis to flesh out what we need to deliver and at
what priority; this could be used as a
determination of, say, what needs to be modified
in 2543bis vs. what should go into a formalized
SIP security draft.

I think it would be extremely productive if we
could carve out 3-4 hours this coming week to come
to consensus of what goes where, priorities, and
trying to consolidate the concepts in these
drafts.

Anybody want to suggest a time? Also: Dean/Bryan
it may be useful to discuss some of the high level
requirements/prioritization in one of the general
meetings.

		Mike

Jari Arkko writes:
 > Hi,
 > 
 > Who is updating the team page
 > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
 > It is missing at least three directly relevant
 > ones:
 > 
 >   HTTP Authentication with EAP
 >   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
 > 
 >   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
 >   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
 > 
 >   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive Nonces
 >   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
 > 
 > Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
 > is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
 > drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
 > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
 > the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
 > two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
 > Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
 > briefly discuss one of the drafts
 > (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
 > 
 > Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
 > BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
 > 
 > Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
 > their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
 > meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
 > is spread over in different places. Can we do
 > something about this? Is everything covered?)
 > 
 > [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
 > [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
 > [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
 > [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
 > [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
 > [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
 > [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
 > 
 > DRAFT  WG            AREA
 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
 > [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
 > [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
 > [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
 > [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security protocol
 > [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
 > [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
 > 
 > There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
 > which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
 > establish security for the media sessions.
 > 
 > Jari Arkko
 > Ericsson

_______________________________________________
Sip-security mailing list
Sip-security@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security


From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Thu Aug  2 12:00:10 2001
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From: Kroeselberg Dirk <Dirk.Kroeselberg@mchp.siemens.de>
To: jari@arkko.com, mat@cisco.com
Cc: sip-security@ietf.org
Subject: AW: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:47:05 +0200 
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Hi,

it looks like this list finally comes back
into live, so I think it is a very good idea to 
spend some time in London on this topic,
and get some understanding of what a common
solution should look like. Or at least to 
figure out what state can be reached in the near
future.

The framework draft and the drafts listed in 
Jari's mail seem to form a good basis for this.

Dirk


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Michael Thomas [mailto:mat@cisco.com]
> Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 2. August 2001 16:18
> An: Jari Arkko
> Cc: brian.rosen@marconi.com; jari@arkko.com; jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com;
> baruch@deltathree.com; jundery@ubiquity.net;
> bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com; mat@cisco.com; sip-security@ietf.org
> Betreff: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
> 
> 
> Jari,
> 
> Thanks for compiling this list. There is clearly a
> lot of common ground amongst many of these drafts,
> and it seems clear that some of us feel that
> taking a neutral/extensible approach to the
> various authentication mechanisms may be the
> right overall approach (myself, HTTP EAP, the
> carrara draft). 
> 
> It seems to me that we may well have a critical
> mass of drafts which define the various
> requirements and make first pass attempts to solve
> various pieces of the overall solution.  If we can
> manage to agree upon a clear set of priorities and
> a baseline for interoperability, I think we can
> merge many of these drafts together into a more
> coherent whole. I personally am attracted to the
> HTTP EAP draft as well as the Carrara draft as
> they provide what my draft did not attempt to
> solve other than some handwaving for example's
> sake. 
> 
> Henning has drafted an initial note on relative
> prioritization which I think we can use as the
> basis to flesh out what we need to deliver and at
> what priority; this could be used as a
> determination of, say, what needs to be modified
> in 2543bis vs. what should go into a formalized
> SIP security draft.
> 
> I think it would be extremely productive if we
> could carve out 3-4 hours this coming week to come
> to consensus of what goes where, priorities, and
> trying to consolidate the concepts in these
> drafts.
> 
> Anybody want to suggest a time? Also: Dean/Bryan
> it may be useful to discuss some of the high level
> requirements/prioritization in one of the general
> meetings.
> 
> 		Mike
> 
> Jari Arkko writes:
>  > Hi,
>  > 
>  > Who is updating the team page
>  > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
>  > It is missing at least three directly relevant
>  > ones:
>  > 
>  >   HTTP Authentication with EAP
>  >   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
>  > 
>  >   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
>  >   
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-d
> igest-00.txt
>  > 
>  >   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using 
> Predictive Nonces
>  >   
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-p
> nonce-00.txt
>  > 
>  > Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
>  > is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
>  > drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
>  > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
>  > the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
>  > two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
>  > Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
>  > briefly discuss one of the drafts
>  > (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
>  > 
>  > Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
>  > BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
>  > 
>  > Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
>  > their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
>  > meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
>  > is spread over in different places. Can we do
>  > something about this? Is everything covered?)
>  > 
>  > [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
>  > [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
>  > [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
>  > [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
>  > [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
>  > [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
>  > [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
>  > 
>  > DRAFT  WG            AREA
>  > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
>  > [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
>  > [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
>  > [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
>  > [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
>  > [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external 
> security protocol
>  > [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
>  > [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
>  > 
>  > There are also additional items such as 
> draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
>  > which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
>  > establish security for the media sessions.
>  > 
>  > Jari Arkko
>  > Ericsson
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Sip-security mailing list
> Sip-security@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security
> 

_______________________________________________
Sip-security mailing list
Sip-security@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security


From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Thu Aug  2 12:25:33 2001
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Michael and all,

yes I'm glad to see that SIP security is really lifting off. There are quite a couple of SIP security related drafts around; thanks to Jari for compiling and updating the list.

While I've already seen the SIP Security Framework, the SRTP and associated key management drafts which look quite good in my eyes. There are several other items which I have to look into.

I found mm-kmgt requirements especially useful and I believe that such basic foundation really helps in progressing work and facilitates technical work later on.

Certainly, there are many pieces already on the table now. Now we should consider the overall picture and look where and how the current pieces fit in, where some white spots remain and how we can complete the landscape. It might help to approach this by thinking of requirements and it could turn out that there might be real reasons to have complementary security solutions in certain cases.

Thus, I would like to join this kind of discussion with all of you. I feel we can produce some good results on this. I'm looking forward to meeting you in London.


Kind Regards

Martin Euchner.
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	-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
	Von:	Michael Thomas [SMTP:mat@cisco.com]
	Gesendet am:	Donnerstag, 2. August 2001 16:18
	An:	Jari Arkko
	Cc:	brian.rosen@marconi.com; jari@arkko.com; jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com; baruch@deltathree.com; jundery@ubiquity.net; bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com; mat@cisco.com; sip-security@ietf.org
	Betreff:	[Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security


	Jari,

	Thanks for compiling this list. There is clearly a
	lot of common ground amongst many of these drafts,
	and it seems clear that some of us feel that
	taking a neutral/extensible approach to the
	various authentication mechanisms may be the
	right overall approach (myself, HTTP EAP, the
	carrara draft). 

	It seems to me that we may well have a critical
	mass of drafts which define the various
	requirements and make first pass attempts to solve
	various pieces of the overall solution.  If we can
	manage to agree upon a clear set of priorities and
	a baseline for interoperability, I think we can
	merge many of these drafts together into a more
	coherent whole. I personally am attracted to the
	HTTP EAP draft as well as the Carrara draft as
	they provide what my draft did not attempt to
	solve other than some handwaving for example's
	sake. 

	Henning has drafted an initial note on relative
	prioritization which I think we can use as the
	basis to flesh out what we need to deliver and at
	what priority; this could be used as a
	determination of, say, what needs to be modified
	in 2543bis vs. what should go into a formalized
	SIP security draft.

	I think it would be extremely productive if we
	could carve out 3-4 hours this coming week to come
	to consensus of what goes where, priorities, and
	trying to consolidate the concepts in these
	drafts.

	Anybody want to suggest a time? Also: Dean/Bryan
	it may be useful to discuss some of the high level
	requirements/prioritization in one of the general
	meetings.

			Mike

	Jari Arkko writes:
	 > Hi,
	 > 
	 > Who is updating the team page
	 > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
	 > It is missing at least three directly relevant
	 > ones:
	 > 
	 >   HTTP Authentication with EAP
	 >   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
	 > 
	 >   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
	 >   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
	 > 
	 >   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive Nonces
	 >   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
	 > _
	 > Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
	 > is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
	 > drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
	 > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
	 > the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
	 > two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
	 > Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
	 > briefly discuss one of the drafts
	 > (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
	 > 
	 > Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
	 > BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
	 > 
	 > Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
	 > their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
	 > meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
	 > is spread over in different places. Can we do
	 > something about this? Is everything covered?)
	 > 
	 > [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
	 > [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
	 > [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
	 > [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
	 > [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
	 > [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
	 > [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
	 > 
	 > DRAFT  WG            AREA
	 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
	 > [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
	 > [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
	 > [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
	 > [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
	 > [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security protocol
	 > [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
	 > [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
	 > 
	 > There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
	 > which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
	 > establish security for the media sessions.
	 > 
	 > Jari Arkko
	 > Ericsson

	_______________________________________________
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	http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security

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>Anybody want to suggest a time? 

In the meetings of course, but if we are also
going to meet inofficially then I'll just list
some possible times for me below:

Wednesday 09:00-13:00 (other times better though)
Wednesday 17:30-
Thursday  09:00-13:00
Thursday  17:30-
Friday    12:00-15:00 (other times better though)

How about Wednesday after the SIPPING meeting
i.e. 17:30 onwards?

An agenda for such a meeting? Maybe like this:

 1. Short presentations on various pieces of work
 2. Identification of commonalities, holes, etc
 3. Priority order discussion
 4. Way forward

Jari

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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Sun Aug  5 15:10:58 2001
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From: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>, <brian.rosen@marconi.com>,
        <jari@arkko.com>, <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, <baruch@deltathree.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:10:49 -0500
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Actually, the page is generated programattically from the same source that
generates the "drafts" page. If you look at the "drafts" page, you'll notice
that there is no subteam listed for the rosenberg draft. This is an
oversight, and I will attempt to correct it.

The other drafts mentioned do not, at least to my knowledge, fall explicitly
within the scope of the SIP working group and are therefore not referenced
in the drafts page, do not have an associated deliverable on the SIP
charter, and as a consequence are not assigned to the SIP security subteam.

Question: Should the rosenberg draft be moved to SIPPING?

--
Dean

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
To: <brian.rosen@marconi.com>; <jari@arkko.com>; <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>;
<baruch@deltathree.com>; <jundery@ubiquity.net>;
<bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com>; <mat@cisco.com>
Cc: <sip-security@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:00 AM
Subject: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security


> Hi,
>
> Who is updating the team page
> (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
> It is missing at least three directly relevant
> ones:
>
>   HTTP Authentication with EAP
>   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
>
>   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
>
>   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive Nonces
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
> 
> Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
> is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
> drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
> http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
> the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
> two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
> Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
> briefly discuss one of the drafts
> (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
>
> Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
> BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
>
> Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
> their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
> meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
> is spread over in different places. Can we do
> something about this? Is everything covered?)
>
> [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
> [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
> [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
> [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
> [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
> [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
> [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
>
> DRAFT  WG            AREA
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
> [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
> [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
> [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
> [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security
protocol
> [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
> [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
>
> There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
> which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
> establish security for the media sessions.
>
> Jari Arkko
> Ericsson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip-security mailing list
> Sip-security@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security
>


_______________________________________________
Sip-security mailing list
Sip-security@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security


From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Sun Aug  5 17:50:27 2001
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From: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>, <brian.rosen@marconi.com>,
        <jari@arkko.com>, <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, <baruch@deltathree.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
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More followup:

The pnonce topic is under discussion in the Tuesday morning session. The
agenda item reads:

0910 Message Integrity via Digest
    draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt -- James Undery
    draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt -- Jonathan Rosenberg


The other drafts you mention are not on the SIP or SIPPING agendas to the
best of my knoweldge. There is some thought on holding a SIP Security BOF,
and I suspect that the these drafts and their implications to SIP would be a
worthwhile topic. Scheduling of BOFS will be discussed during the agenda
bash in the first SIP session.

--
Dean

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
To: <brian.rosen@marconi.com>; <jari@arkko.com>; <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>;
<baruch@deltathree.com>; <jundery@ubiquity.net>;
<bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com>; <mat@cisco.com>
Cc: <sip-security@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:00 AM
Subject: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security


> Hi,
>
> Who is updating the team page
> (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
> It is missing at least three directly relevant
> ones:
>
>   HTTP Authentication with EAP
>   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
>
>   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
>
>   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive Nonces
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
> 
> Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
> is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
> drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
> http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
> the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
> two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
> Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
> briefly discuss one of the drafts
> (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
>
> Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
> BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
>
> Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
> their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
> meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
> is spread over in different places. Can we do
> something about this? Is everything covered?)
>
> [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
> [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
> [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
> [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
> [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
> [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
> [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
>
> DRAFT  WG            AREA
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
> [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
> [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
> [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
> [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security
protocol
> [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
> [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
>
> There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
> which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
> establish security for the media sessions.
>
> Jari Arkko
> Ericsson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip-security mailing list
> Sip-security@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security
>


_______________________________________________
Sip-security mailing list
Sip-security@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security


From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Mon Aug  6 04:07:21 2001
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From: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>,
        "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>, <brian.rosen@marconi.com>,
        <jari@arkko.com>, <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, <baruch@deltathree.com>,
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        <mat@cisco.com>
Cc: <sip-security@ietf.org>
References: <3B6932E4.7EC50609@lmf.ericsson.se> <002d01c11df8$b58a01e0$728821d9@ietf.ignite.net>
Subject: Re: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 17:56:44 -0500
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Whoops, I meant to say a SIP Security Bar BOF -- that is, an unofficial
meeting of interested parties occurring after-hours at an IETF meeting.
There are several bar BOF topics under discussion for IETF 51 -- see the
posted agenda for more.

My apologies.

--
Dean

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>; <brian.rosen@marconi.com>;
<jari@arkko.com>; <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>; <baruch@deltathree.com>;
<jundery@ubiquity.net>; <bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com>; <mat@cisco.com>
Cc: <sip-security@ietf.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security


> More followup:
>
> The pnonce topic is under discussion in the Tuesday morning session. The
> agenda item reads:
>
> 0910 Message Integrity via Digest
>     draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt -- James Undery
>     draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt -- Jonathan Rosenberg
>
>
> The other drafts you mention are not on the SIP or SIPPING agendas to the
> best of my knoweldge. There is some thought on holding a SIP Security BOF,
> and I suspect that the these drafts and their implications to SIP would be
a
> worthwhile topic. Scheduling of BOFS will be discussed during the agenda
> bash in the first SIP session.
>
> --
> Dean
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
> To: <brian.rosen@marconi.com>; <jari@arkko.com>;
<jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>;
> <baruch@deltathree.com>; <jundery@ubiquity.net>;
> <bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com>; <mat@cisco.com>
> Cc: <sip-security@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:00 AM
> Subject: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Who is updating the team page
> > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
> > It is missing at least three directly relevant
> > ones:
> >
> >   HTTP Authentication with EAP
> >   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
> >
> >   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
> >
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
> >
> >   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive
Nonces
> >
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
> > 
> > Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
> > is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
> > drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
> > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
> > the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
> > two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
> > Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
> > briefly discuss one of the drafts
> > (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
> >
> > Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
> > BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
> >
> > Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
> > their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
> > meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
> > is spread over in different places. Can we do
> > something about this? Is everything covered?)
> >
> > [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
> > [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
> > [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
> > [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
> > [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
> > [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
> > [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
> >
> > DRAFT  WG            AREA
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
> > [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
> > [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
> > [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
> > [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security
> protocol
> > [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
> > [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
> >
> > There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
> > which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
> > establish security for the media sessions.
> >
> > Jari Arkko
> > Ericsson
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sip-security mailing list
> > Sip-security@ietf.org
> > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip-security mailing list
> Sip-security@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security
>


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To: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
Cc: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>, <brian.rosen@marconi.com>,
        <jari@arkko.com>, <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, <baruch@deltathree.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
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Dean Willis writes:
 > Question: Should the rosenberg draft be moved to SIPPING?

   It seems that if Jonathan's doesn't actually require
   any bits on the wire guidance (or just sanity shouldn'ts)
   it would be more of a BCP kind of thing. In fact, I think
   that the SIP state blobs could use similar guidance so
   that implementors are aware of the attacks they need to
   guard against even though they it's an implementation issue.

		 Mike

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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Tue Aug  7 10:58:44 2001
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Subject: [Sip-security] Extended HTTP authentication draft for SIP
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Hi,

I'd like to announce a draft we have produced on the use
of an extensible authentication scheme for SIP. We hope
to be able to talk about this in the SIP Security Bar BOF
on Wednesday, and I believe it will also be touched upon
in the 3GPP presentation in the SIPPING WG.

Currently, SIP can use external security schemes such as
IPSec/IKE or TLS also for authentication, or one of the HTTP
and PGP methods within the protocol itself. As you know,
there is some ongoing work in the group to extend the HTTP
methods to better fit the requirements in the SIP case.
Also, AAA protocol extensions are under discussion in
the AAA WG in order to handle cases where the SIP node
doesn't store the authentication passwords by itself and
needs to talk to an authentication server over a protocol.

What we intend to add to this is one new HTTP/SIP authentication
method called HTTP EAP. Here we leverage an existing
protocol EAP (RFC 2284), originally developed for the PPP
world but nowadays being adopted also for WLANs and possibly
other places. EAP supports many authentication methods,
such password or token-card based, as well as PKI, GSM, and
UMTS AKA-based authentication schemes.

Originally, we started to think about an approach like
this as the 3G networks required the use of the UMTS AKA
authentication scheme (due to the deployed operator infrastructure
for handing out the authentication tokens for GSM/UMTS, and
the existence of the necessary technical components such
as the SIM cards already for other reasons). We could add
UMTS AKA authentication directly to SIP, but somehow we feel
that it would be better to add generic authentication to
SIP in one go, allowing various parties to use different
kinds of authentication methods they find suitable in
their situation. At the same time, an added benefit of
the EAP approach is that existing AAA protocols such as
DIAMETER and RADIUS can be used with less extension work,
as they already support EAP. Likewise, most SIP equipment
could in the future stay unchanged even if new authentication
methods are invented.

Draft: http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
Presentation: http://www.arkko.com/sip_eap_ietf51.ppt

Feedback on this approach would be greatly appreciated,
particularly on its SIP applicability, soundness of security,
how to proceed with this in the IETF process, and the
relationship of this to the various security
proposals that the WG is now getting. We also look
forward to interesting discussions in general
about the SIP security framework.

Jari Arkko
Ericsson



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To: "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
Cc: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>, <brian.rosen@marconi.com>,
        <jari@arkko.com>, <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, <baruch@deltathree.com>,
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Subject: [Sip-security] where is the meeting?
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where is today's security meeting? I'm in the front lobby if
people want to meet there if the place hasn't been
set.

		Mike

Dean Willis writes:
 > Actually, the page is generated programattically from the same source that
 > generates the "drafts" page. If you look at the "drafts" page, you'll notice
 > that there is no subteam listed for the rosenberg draft. This is an
 > oversight, and I will attempt to correct it.
 > 
 > The other drafts mentioned do not, at least to my knowledge, fall explicitly
 > within the scope of the SIP working group and are therefore not referenced
 > in the drafts page, do not have an associated deliverable on the SIP
 > charter, and as a consequence are not assigned to the SIP security subteam.
 > 
 > Question: Should the rosenberg draft be moved to SIPPING?
 > 
 > --
 > Dean
 > 
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Jari Arkko" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
 > To: <brian.rosen@marconi.com>; <jari@arkko.com>; <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>;
 > <baruch@deltathree.com>; <jundery@ubiquity.net>;
 > <bindignavile.srinivas@nokia.com>; <mat@cisco.com>
 > Cc: <sip-security@ietf.org>
 > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:00 AM
 > Subject: [Sip-security] New drafts for SIP security
 > 
 > 
 > > Hi,
 > >
 > > Who is updating the team page
 > > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/teams/sipsec/)?
 > > It is missing at least three directly relevant
 > > ones:
 > >
 > >   HTTP Authentication with EAP
 > >   http://www.arkko.com/draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
 > >
 > >   Diameter support for Basic and Digest authentication
 > >
 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
 > >
 > >   Request Header Integrity in SIP and HTTP Digest using Predictive Nonces
 > >
 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
 > > 
 > > Also, when do we discuss these in IETF-51? There
 > > is a slot under the AAA group to discuss some
 > > drafts, but what about the rest? See the link
 > > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/aaa.txt Then
 > > the SIP WG agenda contains the discussion of
 > > two of the drafts (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sip.txt)
 > > Finally, some of the 3GPP presentation will
 > > briefly discuss one of the drafts
 > > (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/01aug/sipping.txt).
 > >
 > > Seems like a place for a real SIP Security
 > > BOF, but that's too late now to reserve...
 > >
 > > Looking at the list of drafts, I'll try to summarize
 > > their content and where they are handled in the upcoming
 > > meeting. (It seems that much of the related work
 > > is spread over in different places. Can we do
 > > something about this? Is everything covered?)
 > >
 > > [Ste] draft-sterman-sip-radius-00.txt
 > > [Tor] draft-torvinen-http-eap-00.txt
 > > [Sri] draft-srinivas-aaa-basic-digest-00.txt
 > > [Ros] draft-rosenberg-sip-http-pnonce-00.txt
 > > [Tho] draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
 > > [Und] draft-undery-sip-digest-00.txt
 > > [Bye] draft-byerly-sip-radius-00.txt
 > >
 > > DRAFT  WG            AREA
 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > -
 > > [Ste]  AAA           Using RADIUS to implement Digest
 > > [Tor]  AAA, SIPPING  Generic auth via EAP in SIP/HTTP, and DIAMETER
 > > [Sri]  AAA           Using DIAMETER NASREQ to implement Digest
 > > [Ros]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
 > > [Tho]  -             New headers to select right external security
 > protocol
 > > [Und]  SIP           Digest to support more headers
 > > [Bye]  (old)         CHAP auth to SIP/HTTP
 > >
 > > There are also additional items such as draft-carrara-mm-kmgt-sol-00.txt
 > > which are not directly related to SIP security, but use SIP to
 > > establish security for the media sessions.
 > >
 > > Jari Arkko
 > > Ericsson
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Sip-security mailing list
 > > Sip-security@ietf.org
 > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-security
 > >
 > 

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Hi,

In order to try and keep up the momentum we got in London, I'll post my
thoughts on sections 1-3 (I assume I was right in thinking section 4
will go from the framework I hope).

Section 1.1 (Nits about terminology)
Crypto-System seems a bit wide in scope, I'd expect it to only cover
privacy.
Message-Intergrity is a little too strong for SIP, some parts need to be
changed (draft-undery-sip-digest include the headers I'd expect to
change en route).


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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Mon Aug 13 09:51:30 2001
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From: James Undery <jundery@ubiquity.net>
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Hi,

Ooops this time I'll try not to post, until I've finished this time.

In order to try and keep up the momentum we got in London, I'll post my
thoughts on sections 1-3 (I assume I was right in thinking section 4
will go from the framework I hope).

Section 1.1 (Nits about terminology)
Crypto-System seems a bit wide in scope, I'd expect it to only cover
privacy.
Message-Intergrity is a little too strong for SIP, some parts need to be

changed (draft-undery-sip-digest include the headers I'd expect to
change en route).
Challange, this is authentication only really (see Crypto Systems)
Transform, This is a bit vague, should digest and encryption/decryption
be separated.

Section 2

One of my main concerns with the outside / inside taxonomy is that the
scariest outside attacks are ones that lead to inside attacks. (I
realise most of the outside concerns are designed to prevent this, but
it's the way I'd be trying to attack SIP networks!)

Section 3.1

Are these supposed to be in order of significance, because
confidentiality from outside, rates way higher than inside in my book.
Also Integrity from outside attacks is surely forgery, inside attacks
are more integrity based.
MITM "as must as possible" should go from the requirements.
The firewall requirements are outside the scope of this frame work in my
opinion too.
Cached credentials are asking for trouble using Authenticate-Info server
can provide the next nonce in responses (and one time nonces are really
desirable).

Section 3.2

(Real Nit) The 3rd Sentence I would be better stating, A trusts B does
not imply B trusts A.

Also The JITB model potentially is missing a scenario (Assuming I has no
direct trust relationship with either end point) that is the case where
it's proxy to proxy (neither has a direct trust relationship with either
endpoint). This is where I'd be most worried about info leakage.

Section 3.2.5

A simple (contrived) case where this could apply is, given a central
trusted certificate store. I offers to route to entities in the strore.
H doesn't trust I will find J and wants H to check J is really the owner
of the certificate.

James Undery




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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Mon Aug 13 14:32:38 2001
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From: "Frank W. Miller" <fmiller@sentito.com>
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Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:31:53 -0400
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Subject: [Sip-security] Official Minutes from SIP Security Adhoc at 51st IETF
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=20
Been trying to send out the combined minutes but they are bouncing for
size.  Sending them one piece at a time=85
=20
FM
=20
=20
Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.
Chief Technical Officer
sentitO Networks, Inc.
www.sentito.com
=20
=20
SIP Security Adhoc Meeting Minutes
=20
Meeting held on Wednsday August 8, 2001 at 51st IETF located at the
Hilton Metropole in London, England.
=20
=20
Some early comments:
=20
* Removal of Signal Header (?) means that some way of passing security
information transitively is required
=20
* Security information must be handed from one UA to another
=20
Meeting proper:
=20
* A threat model and analysis must be developed
=20
* Mike?s draft could be used as a starting point (Henning pointed out
that the draft would be alright as a starting point but that it is
incomplete)
=20
* Mike?s draft discusses ?inside? vs. ?outside? threats
=20
* Oran asked for these to defined
=20
* Mike defined them as follows: an outside threat is one that is
presented by an entity that is not participating and has no visibility
into a conversation and an inside threat is one that is presented by a
participant in a conversation
=20
* For outside threats, the use of TLS etc. vs. http digest may suffice
=20
* Some discussion about inside vs. outside being an instance of thread
prioritization
=20
* Mention of possible use of call control model as a way to model inside
vs. outside and to breakdown the description of inside threats to the
next level
=20
* Jonathan described an example (which I didn?t get to write down) of
what he referred to as a ?SIP-specific? threat
=20
* The relationship between entities needs to be defined: Henning
referred to the relationship between a UA and a gateway as
?semi-adverserial?
=20
* At this point in the meeting, the question of whether the remainder of
the meeting would focus on the threat model or would also include
mechanisms came up.
=20
* An immediate mention of several mechanisms was made: authentication,
authorization, and integrity checking
=20
* The discussion of mechanisms was agreed to a bit later
=20
* A list of threats was proposed and some examples of use included
=20
List of Threats
Examples of Use
Identical Replay                                                Hangup,
Service Theft,
Modified Replay
Registration Hijacking,
Message Forgery
User Impersonation
Disclosure of Call Signaling Information
Denial of Service (DoS)
    - Message Injection
    - Message Deletion
    - Message Amplification
=20
It was noted that the list of threats constitutes a different taxonomy
for describing the threats than Mike?s taxonomy
=20
Henning commented that this approach may be superior since it seemed
intuitively easier to show completeness for
=20
Also noted that this new taxonomy does not capture descriptions of level
of trust
=20
Dave described an example where a UA uses a RADIUS sever for
authentication but that anyone that can compromise the RADIUS server
also compromises the UA, allowing it to be impersonated (not sure I
copied this right Dave)
=20
A description of the ?Pentagon? described in Mike?s draft was presented
=20
The Pentagon is used to describe boundaries of trust
=20
Mike?s draft presents a fully connected graph and describes the level of
trust between each pair of endpoints
=20
Discussion centered on the possibility that this approach may imply that
all mechanisms are necessary for all types of connections
=20
Dave mentioned that the saving grace was that it would probably possible
to also describe when those mechanisms would and would not actually be
used
=20
The question was raised about whether conformance to security
requirements and any mechanisms necessary to indicate this was or was
not the case was necessary all along the signaling path?
=20
The question was asked but never answered, ?where are the keys for SRTP
handled??
=20
It was noted that the ability to do end-to-end body encryption will be
necessary!
=20
The question was asked, ?will parties along a signaling path need to be
able to authenticate a UAC??
=20
Discussion then ensued about whether authentication should be wrt UAs or
users.  Some agreement emerged that UA (i.e. domain level)
authentication might be valuable but that user level authentication
would probably be impractical
=20
This agreement came from a discussion about whether authentication was
necessary for unsolicited calls.  In this case, domain-level
authentication would probably provide some additional value but that
user level authentication might be difficult if not impossible
=20
The discussion then turned to what mechanisms will be included the bis
regarding security given the looming Dec. deadline
=20
Some agreement on the hop-by-hop discussion only that more complex
mechanisms will need to be put in a separate draft
=20
The point was made that mechanisms should only be proposed for the
separated draft after at least one round of requirements had been
circulated
=20
Backward compatibility is important, additional security features cannot
force a wholesale change to the existing bis mechanisms
=20
Henning mentioned a potential practical problem: a separate draft will
require a separate implementation.  The group did not see this as a
serious problem
=20
The discussion then turned to whether TLS or IPSec should be specified
for hop-by-hop security
=20
Mike?s main issue was that TLS does not work with UDP
=20
Henning made the point that TCP works well for ?signaling trunks?,
nailed up signaling connections that persist.  There was some question
about the implications of HOL blocking in this situation. SCTP solves
that potential problem
=20
Main issue with IPSec is that it is somewhat decoupled from the
application since it is done at Layer 3.  It is harder to do
?automatically?
=20
Some agreement that TLS is appropriate for some cases and IPSec for
others
=20
It was noted that something must be made mandatory implementation, which
is the quandary given the difficulties that the MobileIP group had
=20
Dave noted that the UA to Proxy and Proxy to Proxy security can be
different
=20
A proposal was made to use TLS for Proxy to Proxy only as a mandatory
implementation
=20
Another potential bis problem was noted, ?how is a UA-to-UA with no
previous trust relationship handled??  I did not gather any additional
notes from that discussion
=20
The meeting ended with a short discussion on the question of what the
IESG would accept for a mandatory implementation

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Been trying to send out the combined minutes but they =
are
bouncing for size.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Sending =
them one
piece at a time&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>FM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
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mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
mso-no-proof:yes'>Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.<br>
Chief Technical Officer<br>
sentitO Networks, Inc.</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier =
New";mso-no-proof:yes'>www.sentito.com</span></font><font
size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>SIP Security Adhoc Meeting Minutes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Meeting held on Wednsday </span></font><st1:date Month=3D"8" =
Day=3D"8"
Year=3D"2001">August 8, 2001</st1:date> at 51st IETF located at the =
Hilton
Metropole in <st1:place><st1:City>London</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region>England</st1:country-region></st1:place>.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Some early comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Removal of Signal Header (?) means that some way of passing =
security
information transitively is required<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Security information must be handed from one UA to =
another<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Meeting proper:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* A threat model and analysis must be =
developed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Mike<span class=3DGramE>?s</span> draft could be used as a =
starting
point (Henning pointed out that the draft would be alright as a starting =
point
but that it is incomplete)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Mike<span class=3DGramE>?s</span> draft discusses ?inside? =
vs<span
class=3DGramE>. ?</span>outside? <span =
class=3DGramE>threats</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* </span></font><st1:City><st1:place>Oran</st1:place></st1:City> =
asked
for these to defined<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Mike defined them as follows: an outside threat is one that is
presented by an entity that is not participating and has no visibility =
into a
conversation and an inside threat is one that is presented by a =
participant in
a conversation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* For outside threats, the use of TLS etc. vs. http digest may =
suffice<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Some discussion about inside vs. outside being an instance of =
thread
prioritization<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Mention of possible use of call control model as a way to =
model
inside vs. outside and to breakdown the description of inside threats to =
the
next level<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* Jonathan described an example (which I didn<span =
class=3DGramE>?t</span>
get to write down) of what he referred to as a ?SIP-specific? <span
class=3DGramE>threat</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* The relationship between entities needs to be defined: Henning
referred to the relationship between a UA and a gateway <span =
class=3DGramE>as ?</span>semi-adverserial?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* At this point in the meeting, the question of whether the =
remainder
of the meeting would focus on the threat model or would also include =
mechanisms
came up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* An immediate mention of several mechanisms was made: =
authentication,
authorization, and integrity checking<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* The discussion of mechanisms was agreed to a bit =
later<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>* A list of threats was proposed and some examples of use =
included<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>List of Threats<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:5'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>Examples
of Use<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Identical Replay<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:4'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>Hangup,
Service Theft,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Modified Replay<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:5'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>Registration
Hijacking,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Message Forgery<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:5'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>User
Impersonation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Disclosure of Call Signaling =
Information<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Denial of Service (DoS)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 </span>- Message =
Injection<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 </span>- Message =
Deletion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 </span>- Message =
Amplification<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>It was noted that the list of threats constitutes a different =
taxonomy
for describing the threats than Mike<span class=3DGramE>?s</span> =
taxonomy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Henning commented that this approach may be superior since it =
seemed
intuitively easier to show completeness for<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Also noted that this new taxonomy does not capture descriptions =
of
level of trust<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Dave described an example where a UA uses a RADIUS sever for
authentication but that anyone that can compromise the RADIUS server =
also
compromises the UA, allowing it to be impersonated (not sure I copied =
this
right Dave)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>A description of <span class=3DGramE>the ?Pentagon</span>? <span
class=3DGramE>described</span> in Mike?s draft was =
presented<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The Pentagon is used to describe boundaries of =
trust<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Mike<span class=3DGramE>?s</span> draft presents a fully =
connected graph
and describes the level of trust between each pair of =
endpoints<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Discussion centered on the possibility that this approach may =
imply
that all mechanisms are necessary for all types of =
connections<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Dave mentioned that the saving grace was that it would probably
possible to also describe when those mechanisms would and would not =
actually be
used<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The question was raised about whether conformance to security
requirements and any mechanisms necessary to indicate this was or was =
not the
case was necessary all along the signaling =
path?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The question was asked but never answered<span class=3DGramE>, =
?</span>where
are the keys for SRTP handled??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>It was noted that the ability to do end-to-end body encryption =
will be
necessary!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The question was asked<span class=3DGramE>, ?</span>will parties =
along a
signaling path need to be able to authenticate a =
UAC??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Discussion then ensued about whether authentication should be =
wrt UAs
or users.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Some agreement =
emerged that UA
(i.e. domain level) authentication might be valuable but that user level
authentication would probably be =
impractical<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>This agreement came from a discussion about whether =
authentication was
necessary for unsolicited calls.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>In this
case, domain-level authentication would probably provide some additional =
value
but that user level authentication might be difficult if not =
impossible<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The discussion then turned to what mechanisms will be included =
the bis
regarding security given the looming Dec. =
deadline<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Some agreement on the hop-by-hop discussion only <span =
class=3DGramE>that
more complex mechanisms</span> will need to be put in a separate =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The point was made that mechanisms should only be proposed for =
the
separated draft after at least one round of requirements had been =
circulated<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Backward compatibility is important, additional security =
features
cannot force a wholesale change to the existing <span =
class=3DGramE>bis</span>
mechanisms<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Henning mentioned a potential practical problem: a separate =
draft will
require a separate implementation.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>The
group did not see this as a serious problem<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The discussion then turned to whether TLS or IPSec should be =
specified
for hop-by-hop security<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Mike<span class=3DGramE>?s</span> main issue was that TLS does =
not work
with UDP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Henning made the point that TCP works well <span =
class=3DGramE>for ?</span>signaling
trunks?, nailed up signaling connections that persist.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>There was some question about the
implications of HOL blocking in this situation. SCTP solves that =
potential
problem<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Main issue with IPSec is that it is somewhat decoupled from the
application since it is done at Layer 3.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0
</span>It is harder to <span class=3DGramE>do =
?</span>automatically?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Some agreement that TLS is appropriate for some cases and IPSec =
for
others<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>It was noted that something must be made mandatory =
implementation,
which <span class=3DGramE>is the quandary</span> given the difficulties =
that the
MobileIP group had<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Dave noted that the UA to Proxy and Proxy to Proxy security can =
be
different<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>A proposal was made to use TLS for Proxy to Proxy only as a =
mandatory
implementation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Another potential bis problem was noted<span class=3DGramE>, =
?</span>how
is a UA-to-UA with no previous trust relationship handled??<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>I did not gather any additional =
notes from
that discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The meeting ended with a short discussion on the question of =
what the
IESG would accept for a mandatory =
implementation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:34:24 -0400
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=20
This set was taken by Charles Kalmenek=85
=20
=20
Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.
Chief Technical Officer
sentitO Networks, Inc.
www.sentito.com
=20
=20
SIP Security Ad-hoc, Wednesday evening
=20
Start with threat model.  Start with Mike?s draft. =20
=20
Hop by hop vs. end to end is different from inside vs. outside.   Inside
means participants in the call itself; keeping outsiders out is easier;
may degenerate into hop by hop security. =20
=20
If your threat is an outsider, may be better using a hop by hop model
rather than http digest. Is the cost of these other methods
significantly higher?
=20
Threats
=20
Identical message replay
Modified message replay
Message forgery (e.g., impersonation)
Disclosure of signaling information
Denial of service (message injection, message deletion)
=20
Theft of service (e.g., through replay attack of intercepted signaling)
Hang up somebody?s call
Bill diversion
Registration hijacking
User identity masquerading/spoofing
Impersonate another user
Impersonate a proxy
Create a registration that shouldn?t exist
Resource consumption (e.g., creation of state)
=20
Authentication
Authorization
Confidentiality
Integrity
=20
Pyramid picture can be used for analyzing trust boundaries
=20
               P-bg
             /      \
        P-a     P-b
       /               \
 UAa ----------- Uab
=20
This doesn?t help you understand which mechanisms are needed; it?s
useful to know when to invoke a particular mechanism. =20
=20
Henning: how do we convey desires and requirements for security along
the way?
=20
End-to-end body confidentiality is needed, since bodies may be used to
carry end-to-end keys.
=20
Mike: Parties along the path need to be able to authenticate UAC.
Henning: No, I don?t care that someone unknown to me makes a call to me.
It is useful to know it came from the Gas & Electric company.  Brian: Do
we need to be able to authenticate domains?  Chuck: similar to behavior
of caller id from PBXs where general number is provided as caller id.
=20
Relationship between anonymity, authenticity and privacy.
=20
Brian wants to have a simple hop by hop security mechanism (e.g., TLS)
in the bis document, and not much else. =20
=20
EAP authentication is being proposed for 3GPP.
=20
Henning would like to use TLS; Mike would like to IPSec.  Mike?s concern
about TLS is that it doesn?t work with UDP.  Henning: TCP may not be so
bad for signaling trunks.  Dave: but you get HOL blocking.  Henning: you
are likely to have trust relationships with entities that you
communicate with a lot.  Brian: this is not a reason for distinguishing
between IPSec and TLS.
=20
Problems with IPSec: keying is harder to do automatically;  because it?s
built into the OS, you end up assuming that  because a message came from
a particular IP address, you should trust it. Henning: we don?t need to
make this an either-or choice.   Dave: UA-proxy and proxy-proxy may be
different.  UA?s are currently not required to implement TCP.   Brian:
IPSec is not in any OS but SunOS.  Need to pick one that is mandatory to
implement.  There is no mandatory to use requirement.
=20
=20

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This set was taken by Charles <span =
class=3DSpellE>Kalmenek</span>&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
mso-no-proof:yes'>Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.<br>
Chief Technical Officer<br>
sentitO Networks, Inc.</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier =
New";mso-no-proof:yes'>www.sentito.com</span></font><font
size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>SIP Security Ad-hoc, Wednesday =
evening<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Start with threat model.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>Start
with <span class=3DSpellE>Mike<span class=3DGramE>?s</span></span> =
draft.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Hop by hop vs. end to end is different from inside vs. =
outside.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>Inside means participants in =
the call
itself; keeping outsiders out is easier; may degenerate into hop by hop
security.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>If your threat is an outsider, may be better using a hop by hop =
model
rather than http digest. Is the cost of these other methods =
significantly
higher?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Threats<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Identical message replay<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Modified message replay<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Message forgery (e.g., =
impersonation)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Disclosure of signaling information<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Denial of service (message injection, message =
deletion)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Theft of service (e.g., through replay attack of intercepted =
signaling)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Hang up <span class=3DSpellE>somebody<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span>
call<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Bill diversion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Registration hijacking<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>User identity masquerading/spoofing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Impersonate another user<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Impersonate a proxy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Create a registration that <span class=3DSpellE>shouldn<span =
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span>
exist<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Resource consumption (e.g., creation of =
state)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Authentication<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Authorization<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Confidentiality<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Integrity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Pyramid picture can be used for analyzing trust =
boundaries<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>P-<span =
class=3DSpellE>bg</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>/<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>\<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>P-a<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>P-b<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>/<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</span><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0</span>\<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span><span =
class=3DSpellE>UAa</span>
----------- <span class=3DSpellE>Uab</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>This <span class=3DSpellE>doesn<span =
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> help
you understand which mechanisms are needed; <span =
class=3DSpellE>it?s</span>
useful to know when to invoke a particular mechanism.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Henning: how do we convey desires and requirements for security =
along
the way?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>End-to-end body confidentiality is needed, since bodies may be =
used to
carry end-to-end keys.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Mike: Parties along the path need to be able to authenticate =
UAC.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Henning: No, I <span =
class=3DSpellE>don<span
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> care that someone unknown to me makes a =
call to
me.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>It is useful to know it =
came from
the Gas &amp; Electric <span class=3DGramE>company</span>.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Brian: Do we need to be able to =
authenticate
domains?<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Chuck: similar to =
behavior of caller
id from PBXs where general number is provided as caller =
id.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Relationship between anonymity, authenticity =
and
privacy.</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Brian wants to have a simple hop by hop security mechanism =
(e.g., TLS)
in the <span class=3DSpellE><span class=3DGramE>bis</span></span> =
document, and not
much else.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>EAP authentication is being proposed for =
3GPP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Henning would like to use TLS; Mike would like to IPSec.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><span class=3DSpellE>Mike<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span>
concern about TLS is that it <span class=3DSpellE>doesn?t</span> work =
with
UDP.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Henning: TCP may not be =
so bad for
signaling trunks.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Dave: but =
you get HOL
blocking.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Henning: you are =
likely to
have trust relationships with entities that you communicate with a =
lot.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Brian: this is not a reason for
distinguishing between IPSec and TLS.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Problems with IPSec: keying is harder to do automatically<span
class=3DGramE>;<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>because</span> <span
class=3DSpellE>it?s</span> built into the OS, you end up assuming =
that<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>because a message came from a =
particular IP
address, you should trust it. Henning: we <span class=3DSpellE>don<span
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> need to make this an either-or =
choice.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>Dave: UA-proxy and proxy-proxy =
may be
different.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><span =
class=3DSpellE>UA<span
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span> are currently not required to implement =
TCP.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>Brian: IPSec is not in any OS =
but
SunOS.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Need to pick one that =
is
mandatory to implement.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>There =
is no
mandatory to use requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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Subject: [Sip-security] Minutes from SIP Security meeting at 51st IETF
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As promised, here are the minutes from the SIP Security Adhoc
Meeting held at the 51st IETF.  The first document is the minutes
Taken by me, the appointed recorder.  The second document 
Was provided by Charles Kalmanek who provide some also took
Notes in the hope that the union of the two was better than either
One alone.
 
Enjoy!
FM
 
 
Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.
Chief Technical Officer
sentitO Networks, Inc.
www.sentito.com
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>As promised, here are the minutes from the SIP =
Security <span
class=3DSpellE>Adhoc</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Meeting held at the 51<sup>st</sup> IETF.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>The first document is the =
minutes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Taken by me, the appointed =
recorder.</span></font></span><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>The second document =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Was provided by Charles <span =
class=3DSpellE>Kalmanek</span>
who provide some also took<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Notes in the hope that the union of the two was =
better than either<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>One =
alone.</span></font></span><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Enjoy!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>FM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
mso-no-proof:yes'>Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.<br>
Chief Technical Officer<br>
sentitO Networks, Inc.</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier =
New";mso-no-proof:yes'>www.sentito.com</span></font><font
size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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Subject: [Sip-security] Minutes from SIP Security Adhoc at 51st IETF
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=20
Greetings,
=20
Here are the minutes from the SIP Security Adhoc meeting held at the
51st  IETF in London.  I sent these to the list last week as word docs
but the list bounced the message because the attachments were larger
than 40K.  So I reformatted the thing as text and hopefully it will make
it through this time=85
=20
FM
=20
=20
=20
=20
Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.
Chief Technical Officer
sentitO Networks, Inc.
www.sentito.com
=20
=20
=20
=20
SIP Security Adhoc Meeting Minutes
=20
Taken By Frank Miller
=20
Meeting held on Wednsday August 8, 2001 at 51st IETF located at the
Hilton Metropole in London, England.
=20
=20
Some early comments:
=20
* Removal of Signal Header (?) means that some way of passing security
information transitively is required
=20
* Security information must be handed from one UA to another
=20
Meeting proper:
=20
* A threat model and analysis must be developed
=20
* Mike?s draft could be used as a starting point (Henning pointed out
that the draft would be alright as a starting point but that it is
incomplete)
=20
* Mike?s draft discusses ?inside? vs. ?outside? threats
=20
* Oran asked for these to defined
=20
* Mike defined them as follows: an outside threat is one that is
presented by an entity that is not participating and has no visibility
into a conversation and an inside threat is one that is presented by a
participant in a conversation
=20
* For outside threats, the use of TLS etc. vs. http digest may suffice
=20
* Some discussion about inside vs. outside being an instance of thread
prioritization
=20
* Mention of possible use of call control model as a way to model inside
vs. outside and to breakdown the description of inside threats to the
next level
=20
* Jonathan described an example (which I didn?t get to write down) of
what he referred to as a ?SIP-specific? threat
=20
* The relationship between entities needs to be defined: Henning
referred to the relationship between a UA and a gateway as
?semi-adverserial?
=20
* At this point in the meeting, the question of whether the remainder of
the meeting would focus on the threat model or would also include
mechanisms came up.
=20
* An immediate mention of several mechanisms was made: authentication,
authorization, and integrity checking
=20
* The discussion of mechanisms was agreed to a bit later
=20
* A list of threats was proposed and some examples of use included
=20
List of Threats
Examples of Use
Identical Replay                                                 Hangup,
Service Theft,
Modified Replay
Registration Hijacking,
Message Forgery                                               User
Impersonation
Disclosure of Call Signaling Information
Denial of Service (DoS)
    - Message Injection
    - Message Deletion
    - Message Amplification
=20
It was noted that the list of threats constitutes a different taxonomy
for describing the threats than Mike?s taxonomy
=20
Henning commented that this approach may be superior since it seemed
intuitively easier to show completeness for
=20
Also noted that this new taxonomy does not capture descriptions of level
of trust
=20
Dave described an example where a UA uses a RADIUS sever for
authentication but that anyone thatcan compromise the RADIUS server also
compromises the UA, allowing it to be impersonated (not sure I copied
this right Dave)
=20
A description of the ?Pentagon? described in Mike?s draft was presented
=20
The Pentagon is used to describe boundaries of trust
=20
Mike?s draft presents a fully connected graph and describes the level of
trust between each pair of endpoints
=20
Discussion centered on the possibility that this approach may imply that
all mechanisms are necessary for all types of connections
=20
Dave mentioned that the saving grace was that it would probably possible
to also describe when those mechanisms would and would not actually be
used
=20
The question was raised about whether conformance to security
requirements and any mechanisms necessary to indicate this was or was
not the case was necessary all along the signaling path?
=20
The question was asked but never answered, ?where are the keys for SRTP
handled??
=20
It was noted that the ability to do end-to-end body encryption will be
necessary!
=20
The question was asked, ?will parties along a signaling path need to be
able to authenticate a UAC??
=20
Discussion then ensued about whether authentication should be wrt UAs or
users.  Some agreement emerged that UA (i.e. domain level)
authentication might be valuable but that user level authentication
would probably be impractical
=20
This agreement came from a discussion about whether authentication was
necessary for unsolicited calls.  In this case, domain-level
authentication would probably provide some additional value but that
user level authentication might be difficult if not impossible
=20
The discussion then turned to what mechanisms will be included the bis
regarding security given the looming Dec. deadline
=20
Some agreement on the hop-by-hop discussion only that more complex
mechanisms will need to be put in a separate draft
=20
The point was made that mechanisms should only be proposed for the
separated draft after at least one round of requirements had been
circulated
=20
Backward compatibility is important, additional security features cannot
force a wholesale change to the existing bis mechanisms
=20
Henning mentioned a potential practical problem: a separate draft will
require a separate
implementation.  The group did not see this as a serious problem
=20
The discussion then turned to whether TLS or IPSec should be specified
for hop-by-hop security
=20
Mike?s main issue was that TLS does not work with UDP
=20
Henning made the point that TCP works well for ?signaling trunks?,
nailed up signaling connections that persist.  There was some question
about the implications of HOL blocking in this situation. SCTP solves
that potential problem
=20
Main issue with IPSec is that it is somewhat decoupled from the
application since it is done at Layer 3.  It is harder to do
?automatically?
=20
Some agreement that TLS is appropriate for some cases and IPSec for
others
=20
It was noted that something must be made mandatory implementation, which
is the quandary given the difficulties that the MobileIP group had
=20
Dave noted that the UA to Proxy and Proxy to Proxy security can be
different
=20
A proposal was made to use TLS for Proxy to Proxy only as a mandatory
implementation
=20
Another potential bis problem was noted, ?how is a UA-to-UA with no
previous trust relationship handled??  I did not gather any additional
notes from that discussion
=20
The meeting ended with a short discussion on the question of what the
IESG would accept for a mandatory implementation
=20
=20
=20
Minutes taken by Charles Kalmenek
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SIP Security Ad-hoc, Wednesday evening
=20
Start with threat model.  Start with Mike?s draft. =20
=20
Hop by hop vs. end to end is different from inside vs. outside.   Inside
means participants in the call itself; keeping outsiders out is easier;
may degenerate into hop by hop security. =20
=20
If your threat is an outsider, may be better using a hop by hop model
rather than http digest. Is the cost of these other methods
significantly higher?
=20
Threats
=20
Identical message replay
Modified message replay
Message forgery (e.g., impersonation)
Disclosure of signaling information
Denial of service (message injection, message deletion)
=20
Theft of service (e.g., through replay attack of intercepted signaling)
Hang up somebody?s call
Bill diversion
Registration hijacking
User identity masquerading/spoofing
Impersonate another user
Impersonate a proxy
Create a registration that shouldn?t exist
Resource consumption (e.g., creation of state)
=20
Authentication
Authorization
Confidentiality
Integrity
=20
Pyramid picture can be used for analyzing trust boundaries
=20
              P-bg
             /       \
          P-a     P-b
         /             \
    UAa ----------- Uab
=20
This doesn?t help you understand which mechanisms are needed; it?s
useful to know when to invoke a particular mechanism. =20
=20
Henning: how do we convey desires and requirements for security along
the way?
=20
End-to-end body confidentiality is needed, since bodies may be used to
carry end-to-end keys.
=20
Mike: Parties along the path need to be able to authenticate UAC.
Henning: No, I don?t care that someone unknown to me makes a call to me.
It is useful to know it came from the Gas & Electric company.  Brian: Do
we need to be able to authenticate domains?  Chuck: similar to behavior
of caller id from PBXs where general number is provided as caller id.
=20
Relationship between anonymity, authenticity and privacy.
=20
Brian wants to have a simple hop by hop security mechanism (e.g., TLS)
in the bis document, and not much else. =20
=20
EAP authentication is being proposed for 3GPP.
=20
Henning would like to use TLS; Mike would like to IPSec.  Mike?s concern
about TLS is that it doesn?t work with UDP.  Henning: TCP may not be so
bad for signaling trunks.  Dave: but you get HOL blocking.  Henning: you
are likely to have trust relationships with entities that you
communicate with a lot.  Brian: this is not a reason for distinguishing
between IPSec and TLS.
=20
Problems with IPSec: keying is harder to do automatically;  because it?s
built into the OS, you end up assuming that  because a message came from
a particular IP address, you should trust it. Henning: we don?t need to
make this an either-or choice.   Dave: UA-proxy and proxy-proxy may be
different.  UA?s are currently not required to implement TCP.   Brian:
IPSec is not in any OS but SunOS.  Need to pick one that is mandatory to
implement.  There is no mandatory to use requirement.
=20
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=20

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Greetings,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Here are the minutes from the SIP Security <span
class=3DSpellE>Adhoc</span> meeting held at the <span =
class=3DGramE>51<sup>st</sup>
<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>IETF</span> in =
</span></font><st1:City><st1:place><font
  size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>London</span></font></st1:pl=
ace></st1:City><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>I sent these to the list last week =
as word
docs but the list bounced the message because the attachments were =
larger than
40K.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>So I reformatted the =
thing as text
and hopefully it will make it through this =
time&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>FM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Frank W. Miller, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Chief Technical Officer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>sentitO</span></font></span>=
<font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Networks,
Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>www.sentito.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>SIP Security <span class=3DSpellE>Adhoc</span> =
Meeting Minutes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Taken By Frank Miller<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Meeting held on <span class=3DSpellE>Wednsday</span> =
</span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"8" Day=3D"8" Year=3D"2001"><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>August 8, 2001</span></font></st1:date><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> at 51st =
IETF
located at the Hilton <span class=3DSpellE>Metropole</span> in =
</span></font><st1:place><st1:City><font
  size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>London</span></font></st1:Ci=
ty><font
 size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, =
</span></font><st1:country-region><font
  size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>England</span></font></st1:c=
ountry-region></st1:place><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Some early comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Removal of Signal Header (?) means that some way of
passing security information transitively is =
required<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Security information must be handed from one UA to =
another<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Meeting proper:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* A threat model and analysis must be =
developed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* <span class=3DSpellE>Mike<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span>
draft could be used as a starting point (Henning pointed out that the =
draft would
be alright as a starting point but that it is =
incomplete)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* <span class=3DSpellE>Mike<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span>
draft discusses ?inside? vs<span class=3DGramE>. ?</span>outside? <span
class=3DGramE>threats</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* </span></font><st1:City><st1:place><font size=3D2
  face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Oran</span></font></st1:plac=
e></st1:City><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> asked for
these to defined<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Mike defined them as follows: an outside threat is =
one
that is presented by an entity that is not participating and has no =
visibility
into a conversation and an inside threat is one that is presented by a
participant in a conversation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* For outside threats, the use of TLS etc. vs. http =
digest
may suffice<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Some discussion about inside vs. outside being an =
instance
of thread prioritization<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Mention of possible use of call control model as a =
way to
model inside vs. outside and to breakdown the description of inside =
threats to
the next level<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Jonathan described an example (which I <span =
class=3DSpellE>didn<span
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> get to write down) of what he referred to =
as a ?SIP-specific?
<span class=3DGramE>threat</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* The relationship between entities needs to be =
defined:
Henning referred to the relationship between a UA and a gateway <span
class=3DGramE>as ?</span>semi-<span =
class=3DSpellE>adverserial</span>?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* At this point in the meeting, the question of =
whether the
remainder of the meeting would focus on the threat model or would also =
include
mechanisms came up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* An immediate mention of several mechanisms was =
made:
authentication, authorization, and integrity =
checking<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* The discussion of mechanisms was agreed to a bit =
later<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* A list of threats was proposed and some examples of =
use
included<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>List of Threats<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:5'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>Examples
of Use<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Identical Replay<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:4'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span><span
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>Hangup, Service Theft,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Modified Replay<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:5'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>Registration
Hijacking,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Message Forgery<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:4'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>User
Impersonation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Disclosure of Call Signaling =
Information<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Denial of Service (<span =
class=3DSpellE>DoS</span>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 </span>- =
Message
Injection<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 </span>- =
Message Deletion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 </span>- =
Message
Amplification<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It was noted that the list of threats constitutes a
different taxonomy for describing the threats than <span =
class=3DSpellE>Mike<span
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span> taxonomy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Henning commented that this approach may be superior =
since
it seemed intuitively easier to show completeness =
for<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Also noted that this new taxonomy does not capture
descriptions of level of trust<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dave described an example where a UA uses a RADIUS =
sever for
authentication but that anyone <span class=3DSpellE>thatcan</span> =
compromise the
RADIUS server also compromises the UA, allowing it to be impersonated =
(not sure
I copied this right Dave)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>A description of <span class=3DGramE>the =
?Pentagon</span>? <span
class=3DGramE>described</span> in <span class=3DSpellE>Mike?s</span> =
draft was
presented<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The Pentagon is used to describe boundaries of =
trust<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DSpellE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Mike<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span></font></span><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> draft
presents a fully connected graph and describes the level of trust =
between each
pair of endpoints<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Discussion centered on the possibility that this =
approach
may imply that all mechanisms are necessary for all types of =
connections<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dave mentioned that the saving grace was that it =
would
probably possible to also describe when those mechanisms would and would =
not
actually be used<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The question was raised about whether conformance to
security requirements and any mechanisms necessary to indicate this was =
or was
not the case was necessary all along the signaling =
path?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The question was asked but never answered<span =
class=3DGramE>,
?</span>where are the keys for SRTP =
handled??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It was noted that the ability to do end-to-end body
encryption will be necessary!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The question was asked<span class=3DGramE>, =
?</span>will
parties along a signaling path need to be able to authenticate a =
UAC??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Discussion then ensued about whether authentication =
should
be <span class=3DSpellE>wrt</span> <span class=3DSpellE>UAs</span> or =
users.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Some agreement emerged that UA =
(i.e. domain
level) authentication might be valuable but that user level =
authentication would
probably be impractical<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This agreement came from a discussion about whether
authentication was necessary for unsolicited calls.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>In this case, domain-level =
authentication
would probably provide some additional value but that user level =
authentication
might be difficult if not impossible<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The discussion then turned to what mechanisms will be
included the <span class=3DSpellE>bis</span> regarding security given =
the looming
Dec. deadline<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Some agreement on the hop-by-hop discussion only =
<span
class=3DGramE>that more complex mechanisms</span> will need to be put in =
a
separate draft<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The point was made that mechanisms should only be =
proposed
for the separated draft after at least one round of requirements had =
been
circulated<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Backward compatibility is important, additional =
security
features cannot force a wholesale change to the existing <span =
class=3DSpellE><span
class=3DGramE>bis</span></span> mechanisms<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Henning mentioned a potential practical problem: a =
separate
draft will require a separate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>implementation</span></font>=
</span><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>The group did not see this as a =
serious
problem<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The discussion then turned to whether TLS or IPSec =
should be
specified for hop-by-hop security<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DSpellE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Mike<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span></font></span><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> main issue
was that TLS does not work with UDP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Henning made the point that TCP works well <span
class=3DGramE>for ?</span>signaling trunks?, nailed up signaling =
connections that
persist.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>There was some =
question about
the implications of HOL blocking in this situation. SCTP solves that =
potential
problem<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Main issue with IPSec is that it is somewhat =
decoupled from
the application since it is done at Layer 3.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0
</span>It is harder to <span class=3DGramE>do =
?</span>automatically?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Some agreement that TLS is appropriate for some cases =
and
IPSec for others<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It was noted that something must be made mandatory
implementation, which <span class=3DGramE>is the quandary</span> given =
the difficulties
that the <span class=3DSpellE>MobileIP</span> group =
had<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dave noted that the UA to Proxy and Proxy to Proxy =
security
can be different<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>A proposal was made to use TLS for Proxy to Proxy =
only as a
mandatory implementation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Another potential <span class=3DSpellE>bis</span> =
problem was
noted<span class=3DGramE>, ?</span>how is a UA-to-UA with no previous =
trust
relationship handled??<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>I did =
not gather
any additional notes from that discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The meeting ended with a short discussion on the =
question of
what the IESG would accept for a mandatory =
implementation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Minutes taken by Charles <span =
class=3DSpellE>Kalmenek</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>SIP Security Ad-hoc, Wednesday =
evening<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Start with threat model.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0
</span>Start with <span class=3DSpellE>Mike<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span>
draft.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hop by hop vs. end to end is different from inside =
vs.
outside.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>Inside means =
participants in the
call itself; keeping outsiders out is easier; may degenerate into hop by =
hop
security.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If your threat is an outsider, may be better using a =
hop by
hop model rather than http digest. Is the cost of these other methods
significantly higher?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Threats<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Identical message replay<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Modified message replay<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Message forgery (e.g., =
impersonation)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Disclosure of signaling =
information<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Denial of service (message injection, message =
deletion)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Theft of service (e.g., through replay attack of =
intercepted
signaling)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hang up <span class=3DSpellE>somebody<span =
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span>
call<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Bill diversion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Registration hijacking<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>User identity =
masquerading/spoofing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Impersonate another user<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Impersonate a proxy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Create a registration that <span =
class=3DSpellE>shouldn<span
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> exist<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Resource consumption (e.g., creation of =
state)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Authentication<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Authorization<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Confidentiality<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Integrity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Pyramid picture can be used for analyzing trust =
boundaries<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>P-<span
class=3DSpellE>bg</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>/<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>\<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>P-a<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
</span>P-b<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>/ <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</span><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0</span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0=A0</span>\<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0=A0 =
</span><span
class=3DSpellE>UAa</span> ----------- <span =
class=3DSpellE>Uab</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This <span class=3DSpellE>doesn<span =
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span>
help you understand which mechanisms are needed; <span =
class=3DSpellE>it?s</span>
useful to know when to invoke a particular mechanism.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Henning: how do we convey desires and requirements =
for
security along the way?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>End-to-end body confidentiality is needed, since =
bodies may
be used to carry end-to-end keys.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Mike: Parties along the path need to be able to =
authenticate
UAC.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Henning: No, I <span =
class=3DSpellE>don<span
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> care that someone unknown to me makes a =
call to
me.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>It is useful to know it =
came from the
Gas &amp; Electric <span class=3DGramE>company</span>.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Brian: Do we need to be able to =
authenticate
domains?<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Chuck: similar to =
behavior of caller
id from PBXs where general number is provided as caller =
id.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Relationship between =
anonymity,
authenticity and privacy.</span></font></span><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Brian wants to have a simple hop by hop security =
mechanism
(e.g., TLS) in the <span class=3DSpellE><span =
class=3DGramE>bis</span></span>
document, and not much else.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>EAP authentication is being proposed for =
3GPP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Henning would like to use TLS; Mike would like to
IPSec.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><span =
class=3DSpellE>Mike<span
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span> concern about TLS is that it <span =
class=3DSpellE>doesn?t</span>
work with UDP.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Henning: TCP =
may not be
so bad for signaling trunks.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>Dave: but
you get HOL blocking.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>Henning: you are
likely to have trust relationships with entities that you communicate =
with a
lot.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Brian: this is not a =
reason for
distinguishing between IPSec and TLS.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Problems with IPSec: keying is harder to do =
automatically<span
class=3DGramE>;<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 =
</span>because</span> <span
class=3DSpellE>it?s</span> built into the OS, you end up assuming =
that<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>because a message came from a =
particular IP
address, you should trust it. Henning: we <span class=3DSpellE>don<span
class=3DGramE>?t</span></span> need to make this an either-or =
choice.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>Dave: UA-proxy and proxy-proxy =
may be
different.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><span =
class=3DSpellE>UA<span
class=3DGramE>?s</span></span> are currently not required to implement =
TCP.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0=A0 </span>Brian: IPSec is not in any OS =
but
SunOS.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>Need to pick one that =
is
mandatory to implement.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>There =
is no
mandatory to use requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Tue Aug 21 09:56:47 2001
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Subject: [Sip-security] Requirements rather than solutions: security
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Hi. In the SIPPING meeting in London it was
expressed that the IETF would rather see
requirements than solutions from other
organizations such as the 3GPP.

I'd like to start the requirements discussion
by a few security-related requirements that I
think are central to how we could proceed in
the authentication work.

As a background, both current and future
mobile networks have an existing authentication
procedure which is based on smart-card like
devices called SIMs. As these devices and
algorithms are already used even to get network
access, the operators have built an
infrastructure to hand out and manage
hundreds of millions of these cards. A primary
function of the cards is to offer secure storage
for the long-term keys (to avoid cloning etc).

So, I'd like to propose the following requirements
related to SIP authentication in this context:

- Authentication MUST allow for global roaming.
- It MUST be possible to provide secure storage
    of long-term keys used in SIP clients.
- Authentication MUST be efficient in terms
    of CPU, bandwidth, and roundtrip usage.
    There isn't an infinite amount of CPU on
    these devices, and it is also very much
    necessary to avoid too many roundtrips to
    get registration/call setup times acceptable.
    In particular, public key cryptography may
    not be mandated for all nodes.
- It MUST be possible to reuse 'legacy
    authentication'. In other words, existing
    authentication infrastructure and devices
    used in current networks shouldn't have to
    be rebuilt just to add IP multimedia service.
    Naturally not just the 3GPP but also other
    schemes could be allowed.

There are of course other requirements as well,
but this particular set of requirements is interesting
in the sense that I don't see how the current
protocols allow the above. In particular, external
security protocols such as TLS and IKE are not
likely to fullfill the third nor the fourth
requirement, and current HTTP authentication
schemes don't fulfill at least the fourth.

Any comments on the requirements?

Any proposals on how to fulfill the requirements?
(We have one but would be very interested in hearing
also other proposals!)

Also, I'd like to note that [1] exists, and
gives a fuller picture. I believe the above
requirements are also a part of the draft.
Dirk, how up-to-date is this draft and does
it contain all 3GPP requirements?

Jari Arkko
Ericsson

[1] draft-kroeselberg-sip-3g-security-req-00.txt


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Subject: [Sip-security] Proxy routed requirements in draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
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Michael (cc list),

Reading section 3.2 in your draft, am I correct in
concluding that the requirements for the four
different cases (UA->Proxy, UA->Intermediate,
UA->UA, Proxy->Proxy) are the same?

There seems to be quite a bit of discussion using
different language in the subsections, but it
seems to me that the four basic requirements of
mutual authentication, integrity, confidentiality,
and authorization are relevant for all cases.

Jari

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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Wed Aug 29 07:16:09 2001
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Some further discussion: comparing Michael's
draft and draft-ietf-sip-security-requirements-00.txt,
I see that the former doesn't handle availability
and non-repudiation requirements at all. Yet these
are mentioned in the latter. I believe availability
and DoS is a concern, and should perhaps be treated
somewhere. Non-repudiation on the other hand is
propably a can of worms we don't want to open...

Also, in 3.2.5 you talk about the case for
non-adjacent proxies, and wonder if there is
any need for security measures in this
interface. My comment on this is that
protocol-wise you wouldn't even know if
someone who e.g. sent some protected bits
to you was a proxy or an end-node. So,
if we provide tools to get security on the
user->intermediate interface, then non-adjacent
proxies can take advantage of the same
mechanisms. (This comment doesn't of course
say anything about the requirements for such use.
It is perhaps not unthinkable to have a
proxy that would handle security for you
in certain situations.)

Jari

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From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
To: "'Jari Arkko'" <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>, mat@cisco.com
Cc: sip-security@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Sip-security] Re: Proxy routed requirements in draft-thomas-
	sip-sec-framework-00.txt
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:30:05 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 7:16 AM
> To: mat@cisco.com
> Cc: sip-security@ietf.org
> Subject: [Sip-security] Re: Proxy routed requirements in
> draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
> 
> 
> 
> Also, in 3.2.5 you talk about the case for
> non-adjacent proxies, and wonder if there is
> any need for security measures in this
> interface. My comment on this is that
> protocol-wise you wouldn't even know if
> someone who e.g. sent some protected bits
> to you was a proxy or an end-node. So,
> if we provide tools to get security on the
> user->intermediate interface, then non-adjacent
> proxies can take advantage of the same
> mechanisms. 

Not necessarily. There are things a UA can do that a proxy can't (like
initiate a request). Thus, certain SIP mechanisms that you would be able to
do with a UA won't work to a proxy.

-Jonathan R.

---
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                72 Eagle Rock Ave.
Chief Scientist                             First Floor
dynamicsoft                                 East Hanover, NJ 07936
jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com                     FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                      PHONE: (973) 952-5000
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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 31 12:08:36 2001
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From: Michael Thomas <mat@cisco.com>
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To: Jari Arkko <Jari.Arkko@lmf.ericsson.se>
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Subject: [Sip-security] Proxy routed requirements in draft-thomas-sip-sec-framework-00.txt
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Jari Arkko writes:
 > 
 > Michael (cc list),
 > 
 > Reading section 3.2 in your draft, am I correct in
 > concluding that the requirements for the four
 > different cases (UA->Proxy, UA->Intermediate,
 > UA->UA, Proxy->Proxy) are the same?
 > 
 > There seems to be quite a bit of discussion using
 > different language in the subsections, but it
 > seems to me that the four basic requirements of
 > mutual authentication, integrity, confidentiality,
 > and authorization are relevant for all cases.

   Yeah, I wrote it at different times and was rather
   rushed to get it submitted before cutoff. I also
   cut out a DoS bullet too, which should probably be
   reinserted.

   I believe that they all have similar if not identical
   requirements. I couldn't think of anything different
   off the top of my head, but it's probably worth
   testing more to see if that is actually the case.

	   Mike

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From sip-security-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 31 12:25:57 2001
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From: Michael Thomas <mat@cisco.com>
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Jari Arkko writes:
 > 
 > Some further discussion: comparing Michael's
 > draft and draft-ietf-sip-security-requirements-00.txt,
 > I see that the former doesn't handle availability
 > and non-repudiation requirements at all. Yet these
 > are mentioned in the latter. I believe availability
 > and DoS is a concern, and should perhaps be treated
 > somewhere. Non-repudiation on the other hand is
 > propably a can of worms we don't want to open...

   Yes, I really don't want to go down the 
   non-repudiation path. Maybe we just need to
   say that it is an explicit non-goal. DoS is
   a more fertile ground, but as we all know is
   an open ended problem. In order to include
   discussion of DoS requirements, I think we
   first need to create some artificials bounds
   on the discussion so that we have some chance
   of creating a set of requirements which 
   a potential solution can objectively measure
   whether it meets. Ie, open ended statements like
   "should be DoS resistant" aren't helpful.

   How we frame this is an interesting question.
   For outside attackers, we clearly need go no
   farther than countering a pure flooding attack.
   From the inside, however, is a lot trickier, and
   involves potential tradeoffs (tradeoffs that we
   probably don't want to make at this point, I'll
   add). 

   Maybe if we rounded up a bunch of potential DoS
   attacks we could see a pattern so that we could
   extract what our expectations are for SIP's 
   resilience to them is?

 > Also, in 3.2.5 you talk about the case for
 > non-adjacent proxies, and wonder if there is
 > any need for security measures in this
 > interface. My comment on this is that
 > protocol-wise you wouldn't even know if
 > someone who e.g. sent some protected bits
 > to you was a proxy or an end-node. So,
 > if we provide tools to get security on the
 > user->intermediate interface, then non-adjacent
 > proxies can take advantage of the same
 > mechanisms. (This comment doesn't of course
 > say anything about the requirements for such use.
 > It is perhaps not unthinkable to have a
 > proxy that would handle security for you
 > in certain situations.)

   If there are no requirements, or the requirements
   are identical, that's fine -- good even, I'd say.
   The reason I created the fully connected graph
   was to assess whether that was indeed the case.
   It appears to me to be the case, but I'd like 
   to see if other people have sceanrios I hadn't
   considered, or don't fit that model well.

		Mike

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