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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Ahmed Bashandy <abashandy.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHUF9eSXwQMtNwAsUGg6AS3/VhrtqSIZWuggAn9z7mAGniqIA==
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 17:29:01 +0000
Message-ID: <15201_1533230942_5B633F5E_15201_111_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47B01A84@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Ahmed Bashandy <abashandy.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 17:35:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 10:50:24 +0530
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Cc: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, Martin Stiemerling <mls.ietf@gmail.com>,  SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, tsv-art@ietf.org
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Hey Mirja,

Sorry for the long delay. I was traveling constantly since IETF and bit
lost in my mailbox and discussion with Authors. Please see my response
inline[Gaurav]


I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin called
out, however, I still have high level concerns about these sections as they
are mostly giving speculative recommendation which are not clear to me to
work in practice.

Regarding section 7.1, you say
"A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow followed by
an idle interval."
but then you say
"...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowlets F1,
F2, F3, F4..."

This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly randomly
into flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion control. If you
actually have chunks of data that are transmitted with large enough idle
interval in between (as you define flowlets in the first sentence), that is
not an elephant flow anymore and it will not help you to "spread the load
of the elephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually
don't see how the concept of flowlets can be helpful to address the problem
you have at all, and I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.

[Gaurav] Hi Mirja, Thanks for the review. The proposal here is no different
that current ECMP hashing at flowlet level. The only difference which is
being pointed out here is that if we use SR, we could leverage on the
ability of be aware of multiple disjoint paths rather than the hashing.
It=E2=80=99s pins the flowlets to particular paths which is basic SR operat=
ions.

Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits that can
be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller should already
know about static parameters such as the maximum bandwidth per link.

For dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow
bases is the wrong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about
the average loss rate that it observes and that might give you some
valuable, however, if you ask a TCP flow about the average loss rate the
answer will mainly depend on the congestion controller used and the
currently available bandwidth, which is a very dynamic property and not a
link characteristic. So this information is not usable for performance
aware routing. A flow could give you information about the observed RTT
(min/max) on a certain path, or the maximum available bandwidth on a path,
but as I said, given you are in a data center environment these are
information that the controller already should have anyway.

[Gaurav] They are two separate mechanisms. Most DCs have some sort of
data-plane/ECMP aware tracing mechanism to detect the loss/delays and can
be combined with Application back-off to detect issue. All this section is
suggesting is that SR can be used to pin the path to particular set of ECMP
paths instead of relying on ECMP hashing.

Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not work with
TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem on the path,
self-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you don't use TCP and e.g.
send constant bit rate traffic, there may be a large number of competing
TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try to steer traffic "away" on a
time-scale that is slower than TCP dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when
flows start or end) in case you have a lot of very short flow, in the best
case doesn't work and in the worst case leads to oscillation.

[Gaurav] As I said above, there are other mechanisms to detect loss and
trace the path on which loss is seen. This is a common mechanism used in
MSDCs.



I am happy to discuss further over the phone to try to explain the thought
process. I will also do check again with Authors to update the text or
something else based on our conversation.



Cheers,



Gaurav

If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path might go
away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP (with coupled
congestion control) instead because that works on the right time scale.
Again, I don't think this is a use case for SR and I would recommend to
remove the section entirely.

Mirja




On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Mirja,
>
> Ack. Let me work with authors to close ASAP.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gaurav
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> w=
rote:
>
> Hi Gaurav,
>
> sorry for my very long delay but this got somehow a bit lost in my mailbo=
x.
>
> I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin called
> out, however, I still have high level concerns about these sections as th=
ey
> are mostly giving speculative recommendation which are not clear to me to
> work in practice.
>
> Regarding section 7.1, you say
> "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow followed b=
y
> an idle interval."
> but then you say
> "...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowlets F1,
> F2, F3, F4..."
>
> This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly randomly
> into flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion control. If yo=
u
> actually have chunks of data that are transmitted with large enough idle
> interval in between (as you define flowlets in the first sentence), that =
is
> not an elephant flow anymore and it will not help you to "spread the load
> of the elephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually
> don't see how the concept of flowlets can be helpful to address the probl=
em
> you have at all, and I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.
>
> Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits that can
> be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller should alread=
y
> know about static parameters such as the maximum bandwidth per link. For
> dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow bas=
es
> is the wrong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about the
> average loss rate that it observes and that might give you some valuable,
> however, if you ask a TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer wil=
l
> mainly depend on the congestion controller used and the currently availab=
le
> bandwidth, which is a very dynamic property and not a link characteristic=
.
> So this information is not usable for performance aware routing. A flow
> could give you information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain
> path, or the maximum available bandwidth on a path, but as I said, given
> you are in a data center environment these are information that the
> controller already should have anyway.
>
> Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not work wit=
h
> TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem on the path,
> self-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you don't use TCP and e.=
g.
> send constant bit rate traffic, there may be a large number of competing
> TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try to steer traffic "away" on a
> time-scale that is slower than TCP dynamics or even your flow dynamic (wh=
en
> flows start or end) in case you have a lot of very short flow, in the bes=
t
> case doesn't work and in the worst case leads to oscillation.
>
> If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path might g=
o
> away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP (with coupled
> congestion control) instead because that works on the right time scale.
> Again, I don't think this is a use case for SR and I would recommend to
> remove the section entirely.
>
> Mirja
>
>
> On 05.07.2018 04:08, Gaurav Dawra wrote:
>
> Hey Alvaro, Mirja,
>
> Friendly reminder to further progress this document.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gaurav
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alvaro, Mirja
>>
>> Any feedback or next steps to close this?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Gaurav
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 12, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mirja,
>>
>> Friendly Reminder...Could you please also advice if there is anything
>> further to DISCUSS on this document which was also related to TCP update=
s
>> below?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Gaurav
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Martin!
>>>
>>> On June 6, 2018 at 3:14:45 PM, Martin Stiemerling (mls.ietf@gmail.com)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Alvaro, all,
>>>
>>> Thanks for addressing my concerns.
>>>
>>> This version is good to go from my side.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> ;Martin
>>>
>>> Am 30.05.18 um 21:55 schrieb Alvaro Retana:
>>> > Martin:
>>> > br/>> Hi!!  How are you?
>>> > br/>> Gaurav just posted a revision.  Please takke a look and let us
>>> know if br/>> the changes address your concerrns or not.
>>> > br/>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment
>>> -routing-msdc-09
>>> > br/>> Thanks!!!
>>> > br/>> Alvaro. <
>>> > br/>> On May 25, 2018 at 12:08:46 PM, Gaurav Dawra ((
>>> gdawra.ietf@gmail.com br/>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@@gmail.com>) wrote:
>>> > br/>>> Hi Martin, <
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks for review. I will post the new version. Hopefully, it will
>>> br/>>> address all your comments and we can close thhis review.
>>> >>
>>> >> Any updates on below response?
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers,
>>> >>
>>> >> Gaurav
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>
>>> >> On May 23, 2018, at 4:17 AM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com
>>> br/>>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi Martin,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks for the review. Any further comments here ? I will post the
>>> br/>>>> new version soon. <
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Cheers,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Gaurav
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On May 16, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com
>>> br/>>>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@@gmail..com <http://gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Hi Martin,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Apologies from my end we had few internal authors conversations on
>>> br/>>>>> the points you have raised. <
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Please find below my response. I will be happy to discuss further,
>>> br/>>>>> if needed. <
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> <Gaurav> inline...
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Martin Stiemerling <mls.ietf@gmail.co=
m
>>> br/>>>>>> <mailto:mls.iietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Hi Gaurav,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> This got lost on my end, sorry for this. The filter just moved
>>> br/>>>>>> these messages out of my sight... :-/
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Am 15.02.18 um 05:47 schrieb Gaurav Dawra:
>>> >>>>>> Hey Martin,
>>> >>>>>> Sorry for late reply. Please see some comments inline[Gaurav]
>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Martin Stiemerling br/>>>>>>>>
>>> <mls.ietf@@gmail.com <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com> br/>>>>>>>>; <mailto:
>>> mls.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Hi all,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I've reviewed this document as part of the transport area revie=
w
>>> br/>>>>>>>> team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These
>>> br/>>>&gtt;>>>> comments were written primarily for the transport area
>>> directors, br/>>>>>>>> but are copied to the doocument's authors for th=
eir
>>> information br/>>>>>>>&> and to allow them to address any issues raised=
.
>>> When done at the
>>> >>>>>>> time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review
>>> br/>>>>>>>> together with any other last-call comments they receive. Pl=
ease
>>> br/>>>&>>>>> always CC tsv-art@=E2=80=A6 if you reply to or forward thi=
s
>>> review.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Summary:
>>> >>>>>>> This draft has serious issues in Section 7..1, 7.2 and in one
>>> part br/>>>>>>>> of Secction3, described in the review, and needs to be
>>> rethought. br/>>&>>>>>> The other sections are good AFAIK.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Technicals:
>>> >>>>>>> The overall draft looks ok, but the three points below look
>>> br/>>>>>>>> strange and need a fix before publication IMHO:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Both Sections, 7.1. and 7.2., are describing ideas, but not wel=
l
>>> br/>>>>>>>> proven funcationality and not even safe to use functionalit=
y.
>>> br/>>>&>>>>> Both are some sort discussing that different paths in the
>>> network br/>>>>>>>> could be used by the eend host traffic. This sounds
>>> pretty much br/>>>>>>&gtt;> like the Path Aware Networking Proposed
>>> Research Group br/>&gtt;>>>>>> (https://irtf.org/panrg) and hints to
>>> the fact that there is no br/>>>>>>>> commonly understannd and accepted
>>> engineering solution in this space.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Section 7.1:
>>> >>>>>>> [KANDULA04] is a really old reference that hasn't been followed
>>> br/>>>>>>>> up iin recent times and even worse there is no evidence tha=
t
>>> this br/>&gtt;>>>>>> is going to work good enough or stable enough unde=
r
>>> real Internet br/>>>>>>>> traffic. Additioonally, it is more than uncle=
ar
>>> how any modern TCP br/>>>>&ggt;>>> implementation will react to this
>>> >>>>>> [Gaurav] Will get back on this.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I will reply to the other email dicussing this.
>>> >>>> <Gaurav> I have replied to other thread.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Section 7.2:
>>> >>>>>>> This section describes an idea without detailing too much about
>>> br/>>>>>>>> any furtther aspects. Further it changes the commonly accep=
ted
>>> br/>>>;>>>>> notion of what an end host can do with the network. At bes=
t
>>> this br/>>>>>>>> would require a good ddefinition of what an end host i=
n
>>> your br/>>>>>>>&ggt; setting is, e.g., a highly modified piece of (at
>>> least) software
>>> >>>>>>> that usually not found in OS availble on the market (yet?)
>>> >>>>>>> Further communicating instantaneous path characteristics to a
>>> br/>>>>>>>> central point is potentially a bad idea, as the data is alr=
eady
>>> br/>>>;>>>>> outdated when reported by any node.
>>> >>>>>> [Gaurav] I believe Authors are trying to highlight that Host
>>> which br/>>>>>>> is defineed in br/>>>>>>> (
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15)
>>> br/>>>>>>> can innfluence the traffic based on the Calculations locally=
 or
>>> br/>>&gtt;>>>> jointly with the controller. Implementations can decide =
how
>>> much br/>>>>>>> Centralized -vs- localized coontrol is allowed at Host
>>> based on br/>>>>>>> perfoormance data collection.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Performance data collection (monitoring?) isn't crucial when it
>>> br/>>>>>> comes to timely (actuaally real-time) reaction. However, this
>>> br/>>>>>> secttion isn't just about performance data collection as it i=
s
>>> about br/>>>>>>> "Performance-aware routing" this seems to try to inter=
act
>>> in br/>>>>>> real-time with the network behhavior of TCP. This isn't ev=
en
>>> close br/>>>>>> to acceeptable.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I would be ok to say that it is useful to collect performance dat=
a
>>> br/>>>>>> for offline analysis and improvement of the data network.
>>> However, br/>>>>>&ggt; this is at completely different magnitues of tim=
e
>>> scales.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I would recommend to remove the TCP part from this section
>>> entirely.
>>> >>>> <Gaurav>Ack, will update in next rev:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Section will read like this:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ;
>>> >>>> /Knowing the path associated with flows/packets, the end host may/
>>> >>>> /deduce certain characteristics of the path on its own, and/
>>> >>>> /additionally use the information supplied with path information/
>>> >>>> /pushed from the controller or received via pull request. The host=
/
>>> >>>> /may further share its path observations with the centralized
>>> agent,/
>>> >>>> /so that the latter may keep up-to-date network health map to
>>> assist/
>>> >>>> /other hosts with this information./
>>> >>>> //
>>> >>>> /For example, an application A.1 at HostA may pin a flow destined/
>>> >>>> /to HostZ via Spine node Node5 using label stack {16005, 16011}.
>>> The/
>>> >>>> /application A.1 may collect information on packet loss, deduced
>>> from/
>>> >>>> /Other offline mechanisms. [There are some pingMesh mechanisms
>>> which /
>>> >>>> /Can be used here]/
>>> >>>> /Through these mechanisms information to a centralized agent, e.g.=
/
>>> >>>> /after a flow completes, or periodically for longer lived flows./
>>> >>>> /Next, using both local and/or global performance data,
>>> application/
>>> >>>> /A.1 as well as other applications sharing the same resources in
>>> the/
>>> >>>> /DC fabric may pick up the best path for the new flow, or update
>>> an/
>>> >>>> /existing path (e.g.: when informed of congestion on an existing/
>>> >>>> /path)./
>>> >>>> ;
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Section 3, 3rd bullet point:
>>> >>>>>>> It is the foundation of TCP that the network is regarded as a
>>> br/>>>>>>>> black box and that you infer from the transmission of packe=
ts
>>> br/>>>>;>>>> what the current state of the network path is. Inferring
>>> network br/>>>>>>>> path metrics (you mention SRTT, MSS, CWND ) is a ba=
d
>>> idea, as br/>>>>>>>>; this would required that all paths exhibit this a=
nd
>>> if not what br//>>>>>>>> is going to happen?
>>> >>>>>>> It could be an interesting research field to change many points
>>> br/>>>>>>>> in TCP'ss behavior, but this once again points to the fact =
that
>>> br/>>>&>>>>> this not the IETF works but IRTF or elsewhere.
>>> >>>>>> [Gaurav] Martin, Authors are trying to suggest that TCP is
>>> rightly br/>>>>>>> treating Network as Black Box. Authors are implying =
per
>>> path br/>>>>;>>> performance metrics as not cached. Is there some chang=
e in
>>> text br/>>>>>>> you are suggesting??
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I would recommend to remove the 3rd bullet point completey. TCP
>>> br/>>>>>> isn't the place to rememmber "good" or "bad" paths. This is
>>> br/>>>>>> something the network could decide, e.g., rerouting TCP flows
>>> br/>&ggt;>>>> within the network or changing the forwarding path in the
>>> network br/>>>>>> for particular flows (if it is not routed).
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> <Gaurav> Ack, after discussion, we will remove the Section 3 - 3rd
>>> br/>>>>> bullet point. Willl update in next rev - coming shortly.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Kind regards,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>  Martin
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing listTsv-art@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/tsv-art
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Mirja,<div><br></div><div>Sorry for the long delay. I =
was traveling constantly since IETF and bit lost in my mailbox and discussi=
on with Authors. Please see my response inline[Gaurav]</div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family=
:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">I think with your changes you addressed ex=
plicit problems Martin called out, however, I still have high level concern=
s about these sections as they are mostly giving speculative recommendation=
 which are not clear to me to work in practice.</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Regarding section 7.1, you say</span></spa=
n></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:=
rgb(80,0,80);background:white"><br>&quot;A flowlet is defined as a burst of=
 packets from the same flow followed by an idle interval.&quot;<br>
</span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;c=
olor:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">but then you say</span></sub><sub><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><b=
r>
<span style=3D"background:white">&quot;...then the application can break th=
e elephant flow F into flowlets F1, F2, F3, F4...&quot;</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">This sounds like you would just divide an =
elephant flow mostly randomly into flowlets which can interact badly with t=
he congestion control. If you actually have chunks of data that are transmi=
tted with large enough idle interval in between (as you define flowlets in =
the first sentence), that is not an elephant flow anymore and it will not h=
elp you to &quot;spread the load of the elephant flow through all the ECMP =
paths&quot;. In summary I actually don&#39;t see how the concept of flowlet=
s can be helpful to address the problem you have at all, and I still advise=
 you to remove section 7.1 entirely.<span></span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav] Hi Mi=
rja, Thanks for the review. </span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt=
;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">The proposal here is no dif=
ferent that current ECMP hashing at flowlet level. The only difference whic=
h is being pointed out here is that if we use SR, we could leverage on the =
ability of be aware of multiple disjoint paths rather than the hashing. It=
=E2=80=99s pins the flowlets to particular paths which is basic SR operatio=
ns.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Regarding section 7.2, I also still skepti=
cal about any benefits that can be achieved. Given you are in a data center=
, the controller should already know about static parameters such as the ma=
ximum bandwidth per link. <span></span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">For dynamic pa=
rameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow bases is the wr=
ong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about the average loss=
 rate that it observes and that might give you some valuable, however, if y=
ou ask a TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer will mainly depend=
 on the congestion controller used and the currently available bandwidth, w=
hich is a very dynamic property and not a link characteristic. So this info=
rmation is not usable for performance aware routing. A flow could give you =
information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the maxi=
mum available bandwidth on a path, but as I said, given you are in a data c=
enter environment these are information that the controller already should =
have anyway.<span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav] They =
are two separate mechanisms. </span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15p=
t;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Most DCs have some sort of=
 data-plane/ECMP aware tracing mechanism to detect the loss/delays and can =
be combined with Application back-off to detect issue. All this section is =
suggesting is that SR can be used to pin the path to particular set of ECMP=
 paths instead of relying on ECMP hashing.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Your example with detecting a faulty path =
due to losses does not work with TCP as you never know if these loses are d=
ue to a problem on the path, self-induced or by a competing flow. And even =
if you don&#39;t use TCP and e.g. send constant bit rate traffic, there may=
 be a large number of competing TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try to=
 steer traffic &quot;away&quot; on a time-scale that is slower than TCP dyn=
amics or even your flow dynamic (when flows start or end) in case you have =
a lot of very short flow, in the best case doesn&#39;t work and in the wors=
t case leads to oscillation.<span></span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav] As </=
span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;col=
or:rgb(34,34,34)">I said above, there are other mechanisms to detect loss a=
nd trace the path on which loss is seen. This is a common mechanism used in=
 MSDCs.<span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>=C2=A0</span></span></sub=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">I am happy to discuss further o=
ver the phone to try to explain the thought process. I will also do check a=
gain with Authors to update the text or something else based on our convers=
ation.<span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>=C2=A0</span></span></sub=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Cheers,<span></span></span></su=
b></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>=C2=A0</span></span></sub=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Gaurav<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">If you want to make TCP use for handover s=
ituation where one path might go away or become unusable, it&#39;s best to =
use Multipath TCP (with coupled congestion control) instead because that wo=
rks on the right time scale. Again, I don&#39;t think this is a use case fo=
r SR and I would recommend to remove the section entirely.</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Mirja</span></span></sub><sub><span style=
=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif"><span></span></span></sub></p=
>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif"><span>=C2=A0</span></span></sub></p>





<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM, Gaurav Dawra <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hi=
 Mirja,<div><br></div><div>Ack. Let me work with authors to close ASAP.<div=
><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"">Gaurav<br=
><br><div id=3D"m_-8387471352552752171AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPho=
ne</div></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Jul 5, 2018, at 10:06 AM,=
 Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net" target=3D"=
_blank">ietf@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    Hi Gaurav,<br>
    <br>
    sorry for my very long delay but this got somehow a bit lost in my
    mailbox.<br>
    <br>
    I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin
    called out, however, I still have high level concerns about these
    sections as they are mostly giving speculative recommendation which
    are not clear to me to work in practice.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding section 7.1, you say<br>
    &quot;A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow
    followed by an idle interval.&quot;<br>
    but then you say<br>
    &quot;...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowle=
ts
    F1, F2, F3, F4...&quot;<br>
    <br>
    This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly
    randomly into flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion
    control. If you actually have chunks of data that are transmitted
    with large enough idle interval in between (as you define flowlets
    in the first sentence), that is not an elephant flow anymore and it
    will not help you to &quot;spread the load of the elephant flow through
    all the ECMP paths&quot;. In summary I actually don&#39;t see how the c=
oncept
    of flowlets can be helpful to address the problem you have at all,
    and I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits
    that can be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller
    should already know about static parameters such as the maximum
    bandwidth per link. For dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate,
    measuring them on a per-flow bases is the wrong thing to do. What I
    mean is you can ask a router about the average loss rate that it
    observes and that might give you some valuable, however, if you ask
    a TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer will mainly depend
    on the congestion controller used and the currently available
    bandwidth, which is a very dynamic property and not a link
    characteristic. So this information is not usable for performance
    aware routing. A flow could give you information about the observed
    RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the maximum available bandwidth
    on a path, but as I said, given you are in a data center environment
    these are information that the controller already should have
    anyway.<br>
    <br>
    Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not
    work with TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem
    on the path, self-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you
    don&#39;t use TCP and e.g. send constant bit rate traffic, there may be
    a large number of competing TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try
    to steer traffic &quot;away&quot; on a time-scale that is slower than T=
CP
    dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when flows start or end) in case
    you have a lot of very short flow, in the best case doesn&#39;t work an=
d
    in the worst case leads to oscillation.<br>
    <br>
    If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path
    might go away or become unusable, it&#39;s best to use Multipath TCP
    (with coupled congestion control) instead because that works on the
    right time scale. Again, I don&#39;t think this is a use case for SR an=
d
    I would recommend to remove the section entirely.<br>
    <br>
    Mirja<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171moz-cite-prefix">On 05.07.2018 04:0=
8, Gaurav Dawra
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Alvaro, Mirja,=C2=A0
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Friendly reminder to further progress this document.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Cheers,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Gaurav</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Gaurav
          Dawra <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir=3D"auto">Hi Alvaro, Mirja=C2=A0
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Any feedback or next steps to close this?</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Cheers,</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span>Gaurav<br>
                  <br>
                  <div id=3D"m_-8387471352552752171m_3580719019654713542App=
leMailSignature">Sent
                    from my iPhone</div>
                </span>
                <div>
                  <div class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171h5">
                    <div><br>
                      On Jun 12, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Gaurav Dawra &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                      <div>
                        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mirja,
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Friendly Reminder...Could you please also
                            advice if there is anything further to
                            DISCUSS on this document which was also
                            related to TCP updates below?</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Cheers,</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Gaurav</div>
                          <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 7, 2018
                              at 9:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">aretana.ietf=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                <p style=3D"margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"=
><font size=3D"4" face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks
                                    Martin!</font></p>
                                <span> <br>
                                  <p class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171m_35807=
19019654713542m_7352406945680739771airmail_on">On
                                    June 6, 2018 at 3:14:45 PM, Martin
                                    Stiemerling (<a href=3D"mailto:mls.ietf=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>)
                                    wrote:</p>
                                </span>
                                <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"m_-83874=
71352552752171m_3580719019654713542m_7352406945680739771clean_bq"><span>
                                    <div>
                                      <div><span>Hi Alvaro, all,
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Thanks for addressing my
                                          concerns.
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          This version is good to go
                                          from my side.
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Kind regards,
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          ;Martin
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Am 30.05.18 um 21:55 schrieb
                                          Alvaro Retana:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt; Martin:
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt; br/&gt;&gt; Hi!!=C2=A0
                                        How are you?
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; Gaurav just
                                        posted a revision.=C2=A0 Please tak=
ke
                                        a look and let us know if
                                        br/&gt;&gt; the changes address
                                        your concerrns or not.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https:/=
/www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-09" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??<wbr>url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring=
-segment<wbr>-routing-msdc-09</a>
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; Thanks!!!
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; Alvaro.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; On May 25, 2018
                                        at 12:08:46 PM, Gaurav Dawra ((<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.co=
m</a>
                                        br/&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gdawra.ietf@" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a href=3D"http://gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;)
                                        wrote:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin,
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt; Thanks for review. I
                                        will post the new version.
                                        Hopefully, it will
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt; address all your
                                        comments and we can close thhis
                                        review.
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Any updates on below
                                          response?
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Cheers,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Gaurav
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Sent from my iPhone
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span><span>&gt;&gt; On May 23,
                                          2018, at 4:17 AM, Gaurav Dawra
                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a href=3D"htt=
p://gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for
                                        the review. Any further comments
                                        here ? I will post the
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; new version
                                        soon.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Gaurav
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent from my
                                          iPhone
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span><span>&gt;&gt;&gt; On May
                                          16, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Gaurav
                                          Dawra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawr=
a.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gdaw=
ra.ietf@" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a href=3D"http://gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">gmail..<wbr>com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Apologies from my end we had few
                                        internal authors conversations
                                        on br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the
                                        points you have raised.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please find
                                        below my response. I will be
                                        happy to discuss further,
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; if
                                        needed.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt;
                                        inline...
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 9,
                                          2018, at 7:58 AM, Martin
                                          Stiemerling &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mls.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mls.=
iietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.iietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi
                                          Gaurav,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This
                                        got lost on my end, sorry for
                                        this. The filter just moved
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        these messages out of my
                                        sight... :-/
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Am
                                          15.02.18 um 05:47 schrieb
                                          Gaurav Dawra:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey
                                          Martin,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry
                                          for late reply. Please see
                                          some comments inline[Gaurav]
                                          <br>
                                        </span><span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;
                                          On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:25 PM,
                                          Martin Stiemerling
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;
                                          &lt;mls.ietf@@<a href=3D"http://g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com</a>
                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mls.=
ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mls.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          Hi all,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        I&#39;ve reviewed this document as
                                        part of the transport area
                                        review
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        team&#39;s ongoing effort to review
                                        key IETF documents. These
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        comments were written primarily
                                        for the transport area
                                        directors,
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        but are copied to the
                                        doocument&#39;s authors for their
                                        information
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp=
;&gt;
                                        and to allow them to address any
                                        issues raised. When done at the
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        time of IETF Last Call, the
                                        authors should consider this
                                        review
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        together with any other
                                        last-call comments they receive.
                                        Please
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        always CC tsv-art@=E2=80=A6 if you =
reply
                                        to or forward this review.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Summary:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        This draft has serious issues in
                                        Section 7..1, 7.2 and in one
                                        part
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        of Secction3, described in the
                                        review, and needs to be
                                        rethought.
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        The other sections are good
                                        AFAIK.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Technicals:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The
                                        overall draft looks ok, but the
                                        three points below look
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        strange and need a fix before
                                        publication IMHO:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Both Sections, 7.1. and 7.2.,
                                        are describing ideas, but not
                                        well
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        proven funcationality and not
                                        even safe to use functionality.
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Both are some sort discussing
                                        that different paths in the
                                        network
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        could be used by the eend host
                                        traffic. This sounds pretty much
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt; like the Path Aware Networking
                                        Proposed Research Group
                                        br/&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        (<a href=3D"https://irtf.org/panrg"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://irtf.org/panrg</a>)
                                        and hints to the fact that there
                                        is no
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        commonly understannd and
                                        accepted engineering solution in
                                        this space.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Section 7.1:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        [KANDULA04] is a really old
                                        reference that hasn&#39;t been
                                        followed
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        up iin recent times and even
                                        worse there is no evidence that
                                        this
                                        br/&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        is going to work good enough or
                                        stable enough under real
                                        Internet
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        traffic. Additioonally, it is
                                        more than unclear how any modern
                                        TCP
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        implementation will react to
                                        this
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          [Gaurav] Will get back on
                                          this.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I will
                                          reply to the other email
                                          dicussing this.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;Gaurav&gt; I have replied
                                          to other thread.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          Section 7.2:
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        This section describes an idea
                                        without detailing too much about
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any furtther aspects. Further it
                                        changes the commonly accepted
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;
                                        notion of what an end host can
                                        do with the network. At best
                                        this
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        would require a good ddefinition
                                        of what an end host in your
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp=
;ggt;
                                        setting is, e.g., a highly
                                        modified piece of (at least)
                                        software <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          that usually not found in OS
                                          availble on the market (yet?)
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Further communicating
                                        instantaneous path
                                        characteristics to a
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        central point is potentially a
                                        bad idea, as the data is already
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; outdated when reported by any node.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        [Gaurav] I believe Authors are
                                        trying to highlight that Host
                                        which
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        is defineed in
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        (<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15" target=3D"_blank">https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raftt-ietf-spring-segment-rout<wbr>ing-15</a>)
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        can innfluence the traffic based
                                        on the Calculations locally or
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;
                                        jointly with the controller.
                                        Implementations can decide how
                                        much
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Centralized -vs- localized
                                        coontrol is allowed at Host
                                        based on
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        perfoormance data collection.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Performance
                                        data collection (monitoring?)
                                        isn&#39;t crucial when it
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        comes to timely (actuaally
                                        real-time) reaction. However,
                                        this br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        secttion isn&#39;t just about
                                        performance data collection as
                                        it is about
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        &quot;Performance-aware routing&quo=
t; this
                                        seems to try to interact in
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        real-time with the network
                                        behhavior of TCP. This isn&#39;t
                                        even close
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to
                                        acceeptable.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would be
                                        ok to say that it is useful to
                                        collect performance data
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for
                                        offline analysis and improvement
                                        of the data network. However,
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;
                                        this is at completely different
                                        magnitues of time scales.
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would
                                          recommend to remove the TCP
                                          part from this section
                                          entirely.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;Gaurav&gt;Ack, will update
                                          in next rev:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Section will
                                          read like this:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Knowing the
                                          path associated with
                                          flows/packets, the end host
                                          may/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /deduce
                                          certain characteristics of the
                                          path on its own, and/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /additionally
                                          use the information supplied
                                          with path information/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /pushed from
                                          the controller or received via
                                          pull request. The host/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /may further
                                          share its path observations
                                          with the centralized agent,/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /so that the
                                          latter may keep up-to-date
                                          network health map to assist/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /other hosts
                                          with this information./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; //
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /For example,
                                          an application A.1 at HostA
                                          may pin a flow destined/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /to HostZ via
                                          Spine node Node5 using label
                                          stack {16005, 16011}. The/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /application
                                          A.1 may collect information on
                                          packet loss, deduced from/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Other
                                          offline mechanisms. [There are
                                          some pingMesh mechanisms which
                                          /
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Can be used
                                          here]/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Through
                                          these mechanisms information
                                          to a centralized agent, e.g./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /after a flow
                                          completes, or periodically for
                                          longer lived flows./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Next, using
                                          both local and/or global
                                          performance data, application/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /A.1 as well
                                          as other applications sharing
                                          the same resources in the/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /DC fabric
                                          may pick up the best path for
                                          the new flow, or update an/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /existing
                                          path (e.g.: when informed of
                                          congestion on an existing/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /path)./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          Section 3, 3rd bullet point:
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        It is the foundation of TCP that
                                        the network is regarded as a
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        black box and that you infer
                                        from the transmission of packets
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what the current state of the
                                        network path is. Inferring
                                        network
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        path metrics (you mention SRTT,
                                        MSS, CWND ) is a bad idea, as
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
;
                                        this would required that all
                                        paths exhibit this and if not
                                        what
                                        br//&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;
                                        is going to happen?
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It
                                        could be an interesting research
                                        field to change many points
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        in TCP&#39;ss behavior, but this
                                        once again points to the fact
                                        that
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                        this not the IETF works but IRTF
                                        or elsewhere.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        [Gaurav] Martin, Authors are
                                        trying to suggest that TCP is
                                        rightly
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        treating Network as Black Box.
                                        Authors are implying per path
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        performance metrics as not
                                        cached. Is there some change in
                                        text
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        you are suggesting??
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would
                                        recommend to remove the 3rd
                                        bullet point completey. TCP
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        isn&#39;t the place to rememmber
                                        &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot;=
 paths. This is
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        something the network could
                                        decide, e.g., rerouting TCP
                                        flows
                                        br/&gt;&amp;ggt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        within the network or changing
                                        the forwarding path in the
                                        network
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for
                                        particular flows (if it is not
                                        routed).
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt;
                                        Ack, after discussion, we will
                                        remove the Section 3 - 3rd
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bullet
                                        point.=C2=A0Willl update in next re=
v
                                        - coming shortly.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kind
                                        regards,
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0Martin
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </span></blockquote>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171mimeAttachmentHeader"></fiel=
dset>
      <br>
      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Tsv-art mailing list
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<a class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://ww=
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></d=
iv>

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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "'mpls@ietf.org'" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "'adrian@olddog.co.uk'" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Jonathan Hardwick (Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com)" <jonathan.hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "shraddha@juniper.net" <shraddha@juniper.net>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls.authors@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls.authors@ietf.org>, Ahmed Bashandy <abashandy.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-13
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To: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/HuRX3ftN8ym5obBiF-e_nbhnheQ>
Subject: Re: [spring] [Tsv-art] TSV-ART review of draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-08
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Hi Mirja,

Any update ?=20

Cheers,

Gaurav

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 3, 2018, at 10:50 AM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hey Mirja,
>=20
> Sorry for the long delay. I was traveling constantly since IETF and bit lo=
st in my mailbox and discussion with Authors. Please see my response inline[=
Gaurav]
>=20
> I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin called ou=
t, however, I still have high level concerns about these sections as they ar=
e mostly giving speculative recommendation which are not clear to me to work=
 in practice.
>=20
> Regarding section 7.1, you say
> "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow followed by=
 an idle interval."
> but then you say
> "...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowlets F1, F2=
, F3, F4..."
>=20
> This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly randomly in=
to flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion control. If you act=
ually have chunks of data that are transmitted with large enough idle interv=
al in between (as you define flowlets in the first sentence), that is not an=
 elephant flow anymore and it will not help you to "spread the load of the e=
lephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually don't see ho=
w the concept of flowlets can be helpful to address the problem you have at a=
ll, and I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.
> [Gaurav] Hi Mirja, Thanks for the review. The proposal here is no differen=
t that current ECMP hashing at flowlet level. The only difference which is b=
eing pointed out here is that if we use SR, we could leverage on the ability=
 of be aware of multiple disjoint paths rather than the hashing. It=E2=80=99=
s pins the flowlets to particular paths which is basic SR operations.
>=20
> Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits that can b=
e achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller should already kn=
ow about static parameters such as the maximum bandwidth per link.
> For dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow b=
ases is the wrong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about the=
 average loss rate that it observes and that might give you some valuable, h=
owever, if you ask a TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer will ma=
inly depend on the congestion controller used and the currently available ba=
ndwidth, which is a very dynamic property and not a link characteristic. So t=
his information is not usable for performance aware routing. A flow could gi=
ve you information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or th=
e maximum available bandwidth on a path, but as I said, given you are in a d=
ata center environment these are information that the controller already sho=
uld have anyway.
> [Gaurav] They are two separate mechanisms. Most DCs have some sort of data=
-plane/ECMP aware tracing mechanism to detect the loss/delays and can be com=
bined with Application back-off to detect issue. All this section is suggest=
ing is that SR can be used to pin the path to particular set of ECMP paths i=
nstead of relying on ECMP hashing.
>=20
> Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not work with=
 TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem on the path, self=
-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you don't use TCP and e.g. send=
 constant bit rate traffic, there may be a large number of competing TCP flo=
ws that can induce the loses. Try to steer traffic "away" on a time-scale th=
at is slower than TCP dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when flows start o=
r end) in case you have a lot of very short flow, in the best case doesn't w=
ork and in the worst case leads to oscillation.
> [Gaurav] As I said above, there are other mechanisms to detect loss and tr=
ace the path on which loss is seen. This is a common mechanism used in MSDCs=
.
> =20
> I am happy to discuss further over the phone to try to explain the thought=
 process. I will also do check again with Authors to update the text or some=
thing else based on our conversation.
> =20
> Cheers,
> =20
> Gaurav
>=20
> If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path might go=
 away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP (with coupled conge=
stion control) instead because that works on the right time scale. Again, I d=
on't think this is a use case for SR and I would recommend to remove the sec=
tion entirely.
>=20
> Mirja
> =20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>> Hi Mirja,
>>=20
>> Ack. Let me work with authors to close ASAP.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Gaurav
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>>> On Jul 5, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> w=
rote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Gaurav,
>>>=20
>>> sorry for my very long delay but this got somehow a bit lost in my mailb=
ox.
>>>=20
>>> I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin called o=
ut, however, I still have high level concerns about these sections as they a=
re mostly giving speculative recommendation which are not clear to me to wor=
k in practice.
>>>=20
>>> Regarding section 7.1, you say
>>> "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow followed b=
y an idle interval."
>>> but then you say
>>> "...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowlets F1,=
 F2, F3, F4..."
>>>=20
>>> This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly randomly i=
nto flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion control. If you ac=
tually have chunks of data that are transmitted with large enough idle inter=
val in between (as you define flowlets in the first sentence), that is not a=
n elephant flow anymore and it     will not help you to "spread the load of t=
he elephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually don't se=
e how the concept of flowlets can be helpful to address the problem you have=
 at all, and I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.
>>>=20
>>> Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits that ca=
n be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller should already=
 know about static parameters such as the maximum bandwidth per link. For dy=
namic parameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow bases is=
 the wrong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about the averag=
e loss rate that it observes and that might give you some valuable, however,=
 if you ask a TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer will mainly de=
pend on the congestion controller used and the currently available bandwidth=
, which is a very dynamic property and not a link characteristic. So this in=
formation is not usable for performance aware routing. A flow could give you=
 information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the maxi=
mum available bandwidth on a path, but as I said, given you are in a data ce=
nter environment these are information that the controller already should ha=
ve anyway.
>>>=20
>>> Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not work wi=
th TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem on the path, se=
lf-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you don't use TCP and e.g. se=
nd constant bit rate traffic, there may be a large number of competing TCP f=
lows that can induce the loses. Try to steer traffic "away" on a time-scale t=
hat is slower than TCP dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when flows start o=
r end) in case you have a lot of very short flow, in the best case doesn't w=
ork and in the worst case leads to oscillation.
>>>=20
>>> If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path might g=
o away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP (with coupled cong=
estion control) instead because that works on the right time scale. Again, I=
 don't think this is a use case for SR and I would recommend to remove the s=
ection entirely.
>>>=20
>>> Mirja
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 05.07.2018 04:08, Gaurav Dawra wrote:
>>>> Hey Alvaro, Mirja,=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Friendly reminder to further progress this document.
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>=20
>>>> Gaurav
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> =
          wrote:
>>>>> Hi Alvaro, Mirja=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Any feedback or next steps to close this?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Gaurav
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 12, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Friendly Reminder...Could you please also advice if there is anything=
 further to DISCUSS on this document which was also related to TCP updates b=
elow?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Gaurav
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks Martin!
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On June 6, 2018 at 3:14:45 PM, Martin                              =
       Stiemerling (mls.ietf@gmail.com) wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Hi Alvaro, all,=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Thanks for addressing my concerns.=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> This version is good to go from my side.=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Kind regards,=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> ;Martin=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Am 30.05.18 um 21:55 schrieb Alvaro Retana:=20
>>>>>>>> > Martin:=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>> Hi!!  How are you?=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>> Gaurav just posted a revision.  Please takke a look and let=
 us know if br/>> the changes address your concerrns or not.=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routing-msdc-09=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>> Thanks!!!=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>> Alvaro. <=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>> On May 25, 2018 at 12:08:46 PM, Gaurav Dawra ((gdawra.ietf@=
gmail.com br/>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@@gmail.com>) wrote:=20
>>>>>>>> > br/>>> Hi Martin, <=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >> Thanks for review. I will post the new version. Hopefully, it wi=
ll br/>>> address all your comments and we can close thhis review.=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >> Any updates on below response?=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >> Cheers,=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >> Gaurav=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >> On May 23, 2018, at 4:17 AM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com=
 br/>>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@@gmail.com>> wrote:=20
>>>>>>>> >>=20
>>>>>>>> >>> Hi Martin,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>> Thanks for the review. Any further comments here ? I will post t=
he br/>>>> new version soon. <=20
>>>>>>>> >>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>> Cheers,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>> Gaurav=20
>>>>>>>> >>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>> Sent from my iPhone=20
>>>>>>>> >>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>> On May 16, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.co=
m br/>>>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@@gmail..com>> wrote:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> Hi Martin,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> Apologies from my end we had few internal authors conversation=
s on br/>>>>> the points you have raised. <=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> Please find below my response. I will be happy to discuss furt=
her, br/>>>>> if needed. <=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> <Gaurav> inline...=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Martin Stiemerling <mls.ietf@gmai=
l.com br/>>>>>> <mailto:mls.iietf@gmail.com>> wrote:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Hi Gaurav,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> This got lost on my end, sorry for this. The filter just move=
d br/>>>>>> these messages out of my sight... :-/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Am 15.02.18 um 05:47 schrieb Gaurav Dawra:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Hey Martin,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for late reply. Please see some comments inline[Gaurav=
]=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Martin Stiemerling br/>>>>>>>> <=
mls.ietf@@gmail.com <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com> br/>>>>>>>>; <mailto:mls.iet=
f@gmail.com>> wrote:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've reviewed this document as part of the transport area r=
eview br/>>>>>>>> team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These b=
r/>>>&gtt;>>>> comments were written primarily for the transport area       =
                                  directors, br/>>>>>>>> but are copied to t=
he doocument's authors for their information br/>>>>>>>&> and to allow them t=
o address any issues raised. When done at the=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this re=
view br/>>>>>>>> together with any other last-call comments they receive. Pl=
ease br/>>>&>>>>> always CC tsv-art@=E2=80=A6 if you reply to or forward thi=
s review.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Summary:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> This draft has serious issues in Section 7..1, 7.2 and in o=
ne part br/>>>>>>>> of Secction3, described in the review, and needs to be r=
ethought. br/>>&>>>>>> The other sections are good AFAIK.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Technicals:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> The overall draft looks ok, but the three points below look=
 br/>>>>>>>> strange and need a fix before publication IMHO:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Both Sections, 7.1. and 7.2., are describing ideas, but not=
 well br/>>>>>>>> proven funcationality and not even safe to use functionali=
ty. br/>>>&>>>>> Both are some sort discussing that different paths in the n=
etwork br/>>>>>>>> could be used by the eend host traffic. This sounds prett=
y much br/>>>>>>&gtt;> like the Path Aware Networking Proposed Research Grou=
p br/>&gtt;>>>>>> (https://irtf.org/panrg) and hints to the fact that there i=
s no br/>>>>>>>> commonly understannd and accepted engineering solution in t=
his space.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 7.1:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> [KANDULA04] is a really old                                =
         reference that hasn't been followed br/>>>>>>>> up iin recent times=
 and even worse there is no evidence that this br/>&gtt;>>>>>> is going to w=
ork good enough or stable enough under real Internet br/>>>>>>>> traffic. Ad=
ditioonally, it is more than unclear how any modern TCP br/>>>>&ggt;>>> impl=
ementation will react to this=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> [Gaurav] Will get back on this.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> I will reply to the other email dicussing this.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> <Gaurav> I have replied to other thread.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 7.2:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> This section describes an idea without detailing too much a=
bout br/>>>>>>>> any furtther aspects. Further it changes the commonly accep=
ted br/>>>;>>>>> notion of what an end host can do with the network. At best=
 this br/>>>>>>>> would require a good ddefinition of what an end host in yo=
ur br/>>>>>>>&ggt; setting is, e.g., a highly modified piece of (at least) s=
oftware=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> that usually not found in OS availble on the market (yet?)=20=

>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Further communicating instantaneous path characteristics to=
 a br/>>>>>>>> central point is potentially a bad idea, as the data is alrea=
dy br/>>>;>>>>> outdated when reported by any node.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> [Gaurav] I believe Authors are                              =
           trying to highlight that Host which br/>>>>>>> is defineed in br/=
>>>>>>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15) b=
r/>>>>>>> can innfluence the traffic based on the Calculations locally or br=
/>>&gtt;>>>> jointly with the controller. Implementations can decide how muc=
h br/>>>>>>> Centralized -vs- localized coontrol is allowed at Host based on=
 br/>>>>>>>                                         perfoormance data collec=
tion.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Performance data collection (monitoring?) isn't crucial when i=
t br/>>>>>> comes to timely (actuaally real-time) reaction. However, this br=
/>>>>>> secttion isn't just about performance data collection as it is about=
 br/>>>>>>> "Performance-aware routing" this seems to try to interact in br/=
>>>>>> real-time with the network behhavior of TCP. This isn't even close br=
/>>>>>> to acceeptable.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> I would be ok to say that it is useful to collect performance=
 data br/>>>>>> for offline analysis and improvement of the data network. Ho=
wever, br/>>>>>&ggt; this is at completely different magnitues of time scale=
s.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> I would recommend to remove the TCP part from this section en=
tirely.                                          =20
>>>>>>>> >>>> <Gaurav>Ack, will update in next rev:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> Section will read like this:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> ;=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /Knowing the path associated with flows/packets, the end host m=
ay/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /deduce certain characteristics of the path on its own, and/=20=

>>>>>>>> >>>> /additionally use the information supplied with path informati=
on/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /pushed from the controller or received via pull request. The h=
ost/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /may further share its path observations with the centralized a=
gent,/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /so that the latter may keep up-to-date network health map to a=
ssist/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /other hosts with this information./=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> //=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /For example, an application A.1 at HostA may pin a flow desti=
ned/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /to HostZ via Spine node Node5 using label stack {16005, 16011=
}. The/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /application A.1 may collect information on packet loss, deduc=
ed from/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /Other offline mechanisms. [There are some pingMesh mechanisms=
 which /=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /Can be used here]/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /Through these mechanisms information to a centralized agent, e=
.g./=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /after a flow completes, or periodically for longer lived flow=
s./=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /Next, using both local and/or global performance data, applic=
ation/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /A.1 as well as other applications sharing the same resources i=
n the/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /DC fabric may pick up the best path for the new flow, or upda=
te an/=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /existing path (e.g.: when informed of congestion on an existi=
ng/                                          =20
>>>>>>>> >>>> /path)./=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> ;=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 3, 3rd bullet point:=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is the foundation of TCP that the network is regarded as=
 a br/>>>>>>>> black box and that you infer from the transmission of packets=
 br/>>>>;>>>> what the current state of the network path is. Inferring netwo=
rk br/>>>>>>>> path metrics (you mention SRTT, MSS, CWND ) is a bad idea, as=
 br/>>>>>>>>; this would required that all paths exhibit this and if not wha=
t br//>>>>>>>> is going to happen?=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> It could be an interesting research field to change many po=
ints br/>>>>>>>> in TCP'ss behavior, but this once again points to the fact t=
hat br/>>>&>>>>> this not the IETF works but IRTF or elsewhere.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> [Gaurav] Martin, Authors are trying to suggest that TCP is r=
ightly br/>>>>>>> treating Network as Black Box. Authors are implying per pa=
th br/>>>>;>>> performance metrics as not cached. Is there some change in te=
xt br/>>>>>>> you are suggesting??=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> I would recommend to remove the 3rd bullet point completey. T=
CP br/>>>>>> isn't the place to rememmber "good" or "bad" paths. This is br/=
>>>>>> something the network could decide, e.g., rerouting TCP flows br/>&gg=
t;>>>> within the network or changing the forwarding path in the network br/=
>>>>>> for particular flows (if it is not routed).=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>> <Gaurav> Ack, after discussion, we will remove the Section 3 -=
 3rd br/>>>>> bullet point. Willl update in next rev - coming shortly.=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Kind regards,=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>  Martin=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> >>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tsv-art mailing list
>>>> Tsv-art@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art
>>>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Hi Mirja,<div><br></div><div>Any update ?&n=
bsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Gaurav<br><br=
><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 3, 2=
018, at 10:50 AM, Gaurav Dawra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com">=
gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Mirja,<div><br></div><div>Sorry for the long delay=
. I was traveling constantly since IETF and bit lost in my mailbox and discu=
ssion with Authors. Please see my response inline[Gaurav]</div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:G=
eorgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">I think with your changes you addressed exp=
licit problems Martin called out, however, I still have high level concerns a=
bout these sections as they are mostly giving speculative recommendation whi=
ch are not clear to me to work in practice.</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Regarding section 7.1, you say</span></span=
></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rg=
b(80,0,80);background:white"><br>"A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets=
 from the same flow followed by an idle interval."<br>
</span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;co=
lor:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">but then you say</span></sub><sub><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">"...then the application can break the elep=
hant flow F into flowlets F1, F2, F3, F4..."</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">This sounds like you would just divide an e=
lephant flow mostly randomly into flowlets which can interact badly with the=
 congestion control. If you actually have chunks of data that are transmitte=
d with large enough idle interval in between (as you define flowlets in the f=
irst sentence), that is not an elephant flow anymore and it will not help yo=
u to "spread the load of the elephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In s=
ummary I actually don't see how the concept of flowlets can be helpful to ad=
dress the problem you have at all, and I still advise you to remove section 7=
.1 entirely.<span></span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav] Hi Mirja=
, Thanks for the review. </span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">The proposal here is no differen=
t that current ECMP hashing at flowlet level. The only difference which is b=
eing pointed out here is that if we use SR, we could leverage on the ability=
 of be aware of multiple disjoint paths rather than the hashing. It=E2=80=99=
s pins the flowlets to particular paths which is basic SR operations.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptic=
al about any benefits that can be achieved. Given you are in a data center, t=
he controller should already know about static parameters such as the maximu=
m bandwidth per link. <span></span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">For dynamic param=
eters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow bases is the wrong t=
hing to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about the average loss rate t=
hat it observes and that might give you some valuable, however, if you ask a=
 TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer will mainly depend on the c=
ongestion controller used and the currently available bandwidth, which is a v=
ery dynamic property and not a link characteristic. So this information is n=
ot usable for performance aware routing. A flow could give you information a=
bout the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the maximum available b=
andwidth on a path, but as I said, given you are in a data center environmen=
t these are information that the controller already should have anyway.<span=
></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav] They are=
 two separate mechanisms. </span></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;fo=
nt-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Most DCs have some sort of data=
-plane/ECMP aware tracing mechanism to detect the loss/delays and can be com=
bined with Application back-off to detect issue. All this section is suggest=
ing is that SR can be used to pin the path to particular set of ECMP paths i=
nstead of relying on ECMP hashing.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Your example with detecting a faulty path d=
ue to losses does not work with TCP as you never know if these loses are due=
 to a problem on the path, self-induced or by a competing flow. And even if y=
ou don't use TCP and e.g. send constant bit rate traffic, there may be a lar=
ge number of competing TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try to steer tra=
ffic "away" on a time-scale that is slower than TCP dynamics or even your fl=
ow dynamic (when flows start or end) in case you have a lot of very short fl=
ow, in the best case doesn't work and in the worst case leads to oscillation=
.<span></span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav] As </spa=
n></sub><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:r=
gb(34,34,34)">I said above, there are other mechanisms to detect loss and tr=
ace the path on which loss is seen. This is a common mechanism used in MSDCs=
.<span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>&nbsp;</span></span></sub></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">I am happy to discuss further over=
 the phone to try to explain the thought process. I will also do check again=
 with Authors to update the text or something else based on our conversation=
.<span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>&nbsp;</span></span></sub></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Cheers,<span></span></span></sub><=
/p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>&nbsp;</span></span></sub></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Gaurav<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">If you want to make TCP use for handover si=
tuation where one path might go away or become unusable, it's best to use Mu=
ltipath TCP (with coupled congestion control) instead because that works on t=
he right time scale. Again, I don't think this is a use case for SR and I wo=
uld recommend to remove the section entirely.</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Mirja</span></span></sub><sub><span style=3D=
"font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif"><span></span></span></sub></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><sub><span style=3D"font-size:15pt;font-=
family:Georgia,serif"><span>&nbsp;</span></span></sub></p>





<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM, Gaurav Dawra <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Mirja,=
<div><br></div><div>Ack. Let me work with authors to close ASAP.<div><br></d=
iv><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"">Gaurav<br><br><div=
 id=3D"m_-8387471352552752171AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div></=
span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Jul 5, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Mirja K=C3=
=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net" target=3D"_blank">ietf=
@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    Hi Gaurav,<br>
    <br>
    sorry for my very long delay but this got somehow a bit lost in my
    mailbox.<br>
    <br>
    I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin
    called out, however, I still have high level concerns about these
    sections as they are mostly giving speculative recommendation which
    are not clear to me to work in practice.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding section 7.1, you say<br>
    "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow
    followed by an idle interval."<br>
    but then you say<br>
    "...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowlets
    F1, F2, F3, F4..."<br>
    <br>
    This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly
    randomly into flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion
    control. If you actually have chunks of data that are transmitted
    with large enough idle interval in between (as you define flowlets
    in the first sentence), that is not an elephant flow anymore and it
    will not help you to "spread the load of the elephant flow through
    all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually don't see how the concept
    of flowlets can be helpful to address the problem you have at all,
    and I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits
    that can be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller
    should already know about static parameters such as the maximum
    bandwidth per link. For dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate,
    measuring them on a per-flow bases is the wrong thing to do. What I
    mean is you can ask a router about the average loss rate that it
    observes and that might give you some valuable, however, if you ask
    a TCP flow about the average loss rate the answer will mainly depend
    on the congestion controller used and the currently available
    bandwidth, which is a very dynamic property and not a link
    characteristic. So this information is not usable for performance
    aware routing. A flow could give you information about the observed
    RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the maximum available bandwidth
    on a path, but as I said, given you are in a data center environment
    these are information that the controller already should have
    anyway.<br>
    <br>
    Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not
    work with TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem
    on the path, self-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you
    don't use TCP and e.g. send constant bit rate traffic, there may be
    a large number of competing TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try
    to steer traffic "away" on a time-scale that is slower than TCP
    dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when flows start or end) in case
    you have a lot of very short flow, in the best case doesn't work and
    in the worst case leads to oscillation.<br>
    <br>
    If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path
    might go away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP
    (with coupled congestion control) instead because that works on the
    right time scale. Again, I don't think this is a use case for SR and
    I would recommend to remove the section entirely.<br>
    <br>
    Mirja<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171moz-cite-prefix">On 05.07.2018 04:08=
, Gaurav Dawra
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Alvaro, Mirja,&nbsp;
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Friendly reminder to further progress this document.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Cheers,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Gaurav</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Gaurav
          Dawra <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir=3D"auto">Hi Alvaro, Mirja&nbsp;
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Any feedback or next steps to close this?</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Cheers,</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span>Gaurav<br>
                  <br>
                  <div id=3D"m_-8387471352552752171m_3580719019654713542Appl=
eMailSignature">Sent
                    from my iPhone</div>
                </span>
                <div>
                  <div class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171h5">
                    <div><br>
                      On Jun 12, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Gaurav Dawra &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;
                      wrote:<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                      <div>
                        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mirja,
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Friendly Reminder...Could you please also
                            advice if there is anything further to
                            DISCUSS on this document which was also
                            related to TCP updates below?</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Cheers,</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Gaurav</div>
                          <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 7, 2018
                              at 9:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">aretana.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                <p style=3D"margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=
<font size=3D"4" face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks
                                    Martin!</font></p>
                                <span> <br>
                                  <p class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171m_358071=
9019654713542m_7352406945680739771airmail_on">On
                                    June 6, 2018 at 3:14:45 PM, Martin
                                    Stiemerling (<a href=3D"mailto:mls.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>)
                                    wrote:</p>
                                </span>
                                <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"m_-838747=
1352552752171m_3580719019654713542m_7352406945680739771clean_bq"><span>
                                    <div>
                                      <div><span>Hi Alvaro, all,
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Thanks for addressing my
                                          concerns.
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          This version is good to go
                                          from my side.
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Kind regards,
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          ;Martin
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Am 30.05.18 um 21:55 schrieb
                                          Alvaro Retana:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt; Martin:
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt; br/&gt;&gt; Hi!!&nbsp;
                                        How are you?
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; Gaurav just
                                        posted a revision.&nbsp; Please takk=
e
                                        a look and let us know if
                                        br/&gt;&gt; the changes address
                                        your concerrns or not.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://=
www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-09" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??<wbr>url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-se=
gment<wbr>-routing-msdc-09</a>
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; Thanks!!!
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; Alvaro.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt; On May 25, 2018
                                        at 12:08:46 PM, Gaurav Dawra ((<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com<=
/a>
                                        br/&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:gdawra.ietf@" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a href=3D"http://gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;)
                                        wrote:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt; br/&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin,
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt; Thanks for review. I
                                        will post the new version.
                                        Hopefully, it will
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt; address all your
                                        comments and we can close thhis
                                        review.
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Any updates on below
                                          response?
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Cheers,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Gaurav
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt; Sent from my iPhone
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span><span>&gt;&gt; On May 23,
                                          2018, at 4:17 AM, Gaurav Dawra
                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:gdawra.ietf@" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a href=3D"http:=
//gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for
                                        the review. Any further comments
                                        here ? I will post the
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; new version
                                        soon.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Gaurav
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent from my
                                          iPhone
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span><span>&gt;&gt;&gt; On May
                                          16, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Gaurav
                                          Dawra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra=
.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gdawr=
a.ietf@" target=3D"_blank">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a href=3D"http://gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">gmail..<wbr>com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Apologies from my end we had few
                                        internal authors conversations
                                        on br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the
                                        points you have raised.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please find
                                        below my response. I will be
                                        happy to discuss further,
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; if
                                        needed.
                                        &lt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt;
                                        inline...
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 9,
                                          2018, at 7:58 AM, Martin
                                          Stiemerling &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mls.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mls.i=
ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.iietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi
                                          Gaurav,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This
                                        got lost on my end, sorry for
                                        this. The filter just moved
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        these messages out of my
                                        sight... :-/
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Am
                                          15.02.18 um 05:47 schrieb
                                          Gaurav Dawra:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey
                                          Martin,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry
                                          for late reply. Please see
                                          some comments inline[Gaurav]
                                          <br>
                                        </span><span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
                                          On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:25 PM,
                                          Martin Stiemerling
                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;
                                          &lt;mls.ietf@@<a href=3D"http://gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com</a>
                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mls.i=
etf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mls.ietf@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                          wrote:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          Hi all,
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        I've reviewed this document as
                                        part of the transport area
                                        review
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        team's ongoing effort to review
                                        key IETF documents. These
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        comments were written primarily
                                        for the transport area
                                        directors,
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        but are copied to the
                                        doocument's authors for their
                                        information
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;=
&gt;
                                        and to allow them to address any
                                        issues raised. When done at the
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        time of IETF Last Call, the
                                        authors should consider this
                                        review
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        together with any other
                                        last-call comments they receive.
                                        Please
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        always CC tsv-art@=E2=80=A6 if you r=
eply
                                        to or forward this review.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Summary:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        This draft has serious issues in
                                        Section 7..1, 7.2 and in one
                                        part
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        of Secction3, described in the
                                        review, and needs to be
                                        rethought.
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        The other sections are good
                                        AFAIK.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Technicals:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The
                                        overall draft looks ok, but the
                                        three points below look
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        strange and need a fix before
                                        publication IMHO:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Both Sections, 7.1. and 7.2.,
                                        are describing ideas, but not
                                        well
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        proven funcationality and not
                                        even safe to use functionality.
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Both are some sort discussing
                                        that different paths in the
                                        network
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        could be used by the eend host
                                        traffic. This sounds pretty much
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt; like the Path Aware Networking
                                        Proposed Research Group
                                        br/&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        (<a href=3D"https://irtf.org/panrg" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://irtf.org/panrg</a>)
                                        and hints to the fact that there
                                        is no
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        commonly understannd and
                                        accepted engineering solution in
                                        this space.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Section 7.1:
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        [KANDULA04] is a really old
                                        reference that hasn't been
                                        followed
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        up iin recent times and even
                                        worse there is no evidence that
                                        this
                                        br/&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        is going to work good enough or
                                        stable enough under real
                                        Internet
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        traffic. Additioonally, it is
                                        more than unclear how any modern
                                        TCP
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        implementation will react to
                                        this
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          [Gaurav] Will get back on
                                          this.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I will
                                          reply to the other email
                                          dicussing this.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;Gaurav&gt; I have replied
                                          to other thread.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          Section 7.2:
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        This section describes an idea
                                        without detailing too much about
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any furtther aspects. Further it
                                        changes the commonly accepted
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=

                                        notion of what an end host can
                                        do with the network. At best
                                        this
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        would require a good ddefinition
                                        of what an end host in your
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;=
ggt;
                                        setting is, e.g., a highly
                                        modified piece of (at least)
                                        software <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          that usually not found in OS
                                          availble on the market (yet?)
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Further communicating
                                        instantaneous path
                                        characteristics to a
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        central point is potentially a
                                        bad idea, as the data is already
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; outdated when reported by any node.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        [Gaurav] I believe Authors are
                                        trying to highlight that Host
                                        which
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        is defineed in
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        (<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/d<wbr>raftt-ietf-spring-segment-rout<wbr>ing-15</a>)
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        can innfluence the traffic based
                                        on the Calculations locally or
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=

                                        jointly with the controller.
                                        Implementations can decide how
                                        much
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        Centralized -vs- localized
                                        coontrol is allowed at Host
                                        based on
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        perfoormance data collection.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Performance
                                        data collection (monitoring?)
                                        isn't crucial when it
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        comes to timely (actuaally
                                        real-time) reaction. However,
                                        this br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        secttion isn't just about
                                        performance data collection as
                                        it is about
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        "Performance-aware routing" this
                                        seems to try to interact in
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        real-time with the network
                                        behhavior of TCP. This isn't
                                        even close
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to
                                        acceeptable.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would be
                                        ok to say that it is useful to
                                        collect performance data
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for
                                        offline analysis and improvement
                                        of the data network. However,
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;
                                        this is at completely different
                                        magnitues of time scales.
                                        <br>
                                        <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would
                                          recommend to remove the TCP
                                          part from this section
                                          entirely.
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          &lt;Gaurav&gt;Ack, will update
                                          in next rev:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Section will
                                          read like this:
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Knowing the
                                          path associated with
                                          flows/packets, the end host
                                          may/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /deduce
                                          certain characteristics of the
                                          path on its own, and/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /additionally
                                          use the information supplied
                                          with path information/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /pushed from
                                          the controller or received via
                                          pull request. The host/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /may further
                                          share its path observations
                                          with the centralized agent,/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /so that the
                                          latter may keep up-to-date
                                          network health map to assist/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /other hosts
                                          with this information./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; //
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /For example,
                                          an application A.1 at HostA
                                          may pin a flow destined/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /to HostZ via
                                          Spine node Node5 using label
                                          stack {16005, 16011}. The/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /application
                                          A.1 may collect information on
                                          packet loss, deduced from/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Other
                                          offline mechanisms. [There are
                                          some pingMesh mechanisms which
                                          /
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Can be used
                                          here]/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Through
                                          these mechanisms information
                                          to a centralized agent, e.g./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /after a flow
                                          completes, or periodically for
                                          longer lived flows./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Next, using
                                          both local and/or global
                                          performance data, application/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /A.1 as well
                                          as other applications sharing
                                          the same resources in the/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /DC fabric
                                          may pick up the best path for
                                          the new flow, or update an/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /existing
                                          path (e.g.: when informed of
                                          congestion on an existing/
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /path)./
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          <br>
                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                          Section 3, 3rd bullet point:
                                          <br>
                                        </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        It is the foundation of TCP that
                                        the network is regarded as a
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        black box and that you infer
                                        from the transmission of packets
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what the current state of the
                                        network path is. Inferring
                                        network
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        path metrics (you mention SRTT,
                                        MSS, CWND ) is a bad idea, as
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;=

                                        this would required that all
                                        paths exhibit this and if not
                                        what
                                        br//&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=

                                        is going to happen?
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It
                                        could be an interesting research
                                        field to change many points
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        in TCP'ss behavior, but this
                                        once again points to the fact
                                        that
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
                                        this not the IETF works but IRTF
                                        or elsewhere.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        [Gaurav] Martin, Authors are
                                        trying to suggest that TCP is
                                        rightly
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        treating Network as Black Box.
                                        Authors are implying per path
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        performance metrics as not
                                        cached. Is there some change in
                                        text
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        you are suggesting??
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would
                                        recommend to remove the 3rd
                                        bullet point completey. TCP
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        isn't the place to rememmber
                                        "good" or "bad" paths. This is
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        something the network could
                                        decide, e.g., rerouting TCP
                                        flows
                                        br/&gt;&amp;ggt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        within the network or changing
                                        the forwarding path in the
                                        network
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for
                                        particular flows (if it is not
                                        routed).
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt;
                                        Ack, after discussion, we will
                                        remove the Section 3 - 3rd
                                        br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bullet
                                        point.&nbsp;Willl update in next rev=

                                        - coming shortly.
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kind
                                        regards,
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;Martin
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                        &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                        <br>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </span></blockquote>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"m_-8387471352552752171mimeAttachmentHeader"></field=
set>
      <br>
      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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v>
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To: Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Hi Gaurav,

please see inline.

On 03.08.2018 07:20, Gaurav Dawra wrote:
> Hey Mirja,
>
> Sorry for the long delay. I was traveling constantly since IETF and 
> bit lost in my mailbox and discussion with Authors. Please see my 
> response inline[Gaurav]
>
> _
> I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin 
> called out, however, I still have high level concerns about these 
> sections as they are mostly giving speculative recommendation which 
> are not clear to me to work in practice.
>
> Regarding section 7.1, you say _
> "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow 
> followed by an idle interval."
> _but then you say _
> "...then the application can break the elephant flow F into flowlets 
> F1, F2, F3, F4..."
>
> This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly 
> randomly into flowlets which can interact badly with the congestion 
> control. If you actually have chunks of data that are transmitted with 
> large enough idle interval in between (as you define flowlets in the 
> first sentence), that is not an elephant flow anymore and it will not 
> help you to "spread the load of the elephant flow through all the ECMP 
> paths". In summary I actually don't see how the concept of flowlets 
> can be helpful to address the problem you have at all, and I still 
> advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.
>
> _[Gaurav] Hi Mirja, Thanks for the review. _The proposal here is no 
> different that current ECMP hashing at flowlet level. The only 
> difference which is being pointed out here is that if we use SR, we 
> could leverage on the ability of be aware of multiple disjoint paths 
> rather than the hashing. It’s pins the flowlets to particular paths 
> which is basic SR operations.
>

Yes the problem is that we usually don't recommend ECMP hashing on 
flowlet level because it can interact badly with the end-end mechanisms 
of that flow. As I said, I don't see how the notion of flowlets help you 
problem and therefore I still recommend to remove that paragraph.

> _
> Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits that 
> can be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the controller should 
> already know about static parameters such as the maximum bandwidth per 
> link.
>
> _For dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them on a 
> per-flow bases is the wrong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask a 
> router about the average loss rate that it observes and that might 
> give you some valuable, however, if you ask a TCP flow about the 
> average loss rate the answer will mainly depend on the congestion 
> controller used and the currently available bandwidth, which is a very 
> dynamic property and not a link characteristic. So this information is 
> not usable for performance aware routing. A flow could give you 
> information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the 
> maximum available bandwidth on a path, but as I said, given you are in 
> a data center environment these are information that the controller 
> already should have anyway.
>
> _[Gaurav] They are two separate mechanisms. _Most DCs have some sort 
> of data-plane/ECMP aware tracing mechanism to detect the loss/delays 
> and can be combined with Application back-off to detect issue. All 
> this section is suggesting is that SR can be used to pin the path to 
> particular set of ECMP paths instead of relying on ECMP hashing.
>

_This is not quite what the text says. If that is the statement you want 
to make, that is fine but then you don't need to talk about performance 
aware routing at all.
>
> _
> Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not work 
> with TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a problem on the 
> path, self-induced or by a competing flow. And even if you don't use 
> TCP and e.g. send constant bit rate traffic, there may be a large 
> number of competing TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try to steer 
> traffic "away" on a time-scale that is slower than TCP dynamics or 
> even your flow dynamic (when flows start or end) in case you have a 
> lot of very short flow, in the best case doesn't work and in the worst 
> case leads to oscillation.
>
> _[Gaurav] As _I said above, there are other mechanisms to detect loss 
> and trace the path on which loss is seen. This is a common mechanism 
> used in MSDCs.
>
_I think this is beyond the scope of the document.
>
> _
>
> _
>
> _I am happy to discuss further over the phone to try to explain the 
> thought process. I will also do check again with Authors to update the 
> text or something else based on our conversation.
>

Maybe see if some update can be made to the text first and then we can 
have another discussion if needed.

> _
>
> _
>
> _Cheers,
>
> _
>
> _Gaurav
>
> If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path 
> might go away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP (with 
> coupled congestion control) instead because that works on the right 
> time scale. Again, I don't think this is a use case for SR and I would 
> recommend to remove the section entirely.
>
> Mirja _
>
> _
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com 
> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Mirja,
>
>     Ack. Let me work with authors to close ASAP.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Gaurav
>
>     Sent from my iPhone
>
>     On Jul 5, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net
>     <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> wrote:
>
>>     Hi Gaurav,
>>
>>     sorry for my very long delay but this got somehow a bit lost in
>>     my mailbox.
>>
>>     I think with your changes you addressed explicit problems Martin
>>     called out, however, I still have high level concerns about these
>>     sections as they are mostly giving speculative recommendation
>>     which are not clear to me to work in practice.
>>
>>     Regarding section 7.1, you say
>>     "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the same flow
>>     followed by an idle interval."
>>     but then you say
>>     "...then the application can break the elephant flow F into
>>     flowlets F1, F2, F3, F4..."
>>
>>     This sounds like you would just divide an elephant flow mostly
>>     randomly into flowlets which can interact badly with the
>>     congestion control. If you actually have chunks of data that are
>>     transmitted with large enough idle interval in between (as you
>>     define flowlets in the first sentence), that is not an elephant
>>     flow anymore and it will not help you to "spread the load of the
>>     elephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually
>>     don't see how the concept of flowlets can be helpful to address
>>     the problem you have at all, and I still advise you to remove
>>     section 7.1 entirely.
>>
>>     Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical about any benefits
>>     that can be achieved. Given you are in a data center, the
>>     controller should already know about static parameters such as
>>     the maximum bandwidth per link. For dynamic parameters, e.g. like
>>     loss rate, measuring them on a per-flow bases is the wrong thing
>>     to do. What I mean is you can ask a router about the average loss
>>     rate that it observes and that might give you some valuable,
>>     however, if you ask a TCP flow about the average loss rate the
>>     answer will mainly depend on the congestion controller used and
>>     the currently available bandwidth, which is a very dynamic
>>     property and not a link characteristic. So this information is
>>     not usable for performance aware routing. A flow could give you
>>     information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a certain path,
>>     or the maximum available bandwidth on a path, but as I said,
>>     given you are in a data center environment these are information
>>     that the controller already should have anyway.
>>
>>     Your example with detecting a faulty path due to losses does not
>>     work with TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a
>>     problem on the path, self-induced or by a competing flow. And
>>     even if you don't use TCP and e.g. send constant bit rate
>>     traffic, there may be a large number of competing TCP flows that
>>     can induce the loses. Try to steer traffic "away" on a time-scale
>>     that is slower than TCP dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when
>>     flows start or end) in case you have a lot of very short flow, in
>>     the best case doesn't work and in the worst case leads to
>>     oscillation.
>>
>>     If you want to make TCP use for handover situation where one path
>>     might go away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath TCP
>>     (with coupled congestion control) instead because that works on
>>     the right time scale. Again, I don't think this is a use case for
>>     SR and I would recommend to remove the section entirely.
>>
>>     Mirja
>>
>>
>>     On 05.07.2018 04:08, Gaurav Dawra wrote:
>>>     Hey Alvaro, Mirja,
>>>
>>>     Friendly reminder to further progress this document.
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>
>>>     Gaurav
>>>
>>>     On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Gaurav Dawra
>>>     <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi Alvaro, Mirja
>>>
>>>         Any feedback or next steps to close this?
>>>
>>>         Cheers,
>>>
>>>         Gaurav
>>>
>>>         Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>         On Jun 12, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Gaurav Dawra
>>>         <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>         Hi Mirja,
>>>>
>>>>         Friendly Reminder...Could you please also advice if there
>>>>         is anything further to DISCUSS on this document which was
>>>>         also related to TCP updates below?
>>>>
>>>>         Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>         Gaurav
>>>>
>>>>         On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Alvaro Retana
>>>>         <aretana.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             Thanks Martin!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             On June 6, 2018 at 3:14:45 PM, Martin Stiemerling
>>>>             (mls.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com>) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>             Hi Alvaro, all,
>>>>>
>>>>>             Thanks for addressing my concerns.
>>>>>
>>>>>             This version is good to go from my side.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>             ;Martin
>>>>>
>>>>>             Am 30.05.18 um 21:55 schrieb Alvaro Retana:
>>>>>             > Martin:
>>>>>             > br/>> Hi!!  How are you?
>>>>>             > br/>> Gaurav just posted a revision. Please takke a
>>>>>             look and let us know if br/>> the changes address your
>>>>>             concerrns or not.
>>>>>             > br/>>
>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-09
>>>>>             <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-09>
>>>>>
>>>>>             > br/>> Thanks!!!
>>>>>             > br/>> Alvaro. <
>>>>>             > br/>> On May 25, 2018 at 12:08:46 PM, Gaurav Dawra
>>>>>             ((gdawra.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>             br/>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@
>>>>>             <mailto:gdawra.ietf@>@gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>)
>>>>>             wrote:
>>>>>             > br/>>> Hi Martin, <
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >> Thanks for review. I will post the new version.
>>>>>             Hopefully, it will br/>>> address all your comments
>>>>>             and we can close thhis review.
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >> Any updates on below response?
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >> Cheers,
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >> Gaurav
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >> On May 23, 2018, at 4:17 AM, Gaurav Dawra
>>>>>             <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>             br/>>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@
>>>>>             <mailto:gdawra.ietf@>@gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>>
>>>>>             wrote:
>>>>>             >>
>>>>>             >>> Hi Martin,
>>>>>             >>>
>>>>>             >>> Thanks for the review. Any further comments here ? I
>>>>>             will post the br/>>>> new version soon. <
>>>>>             >>>
>>>>>             >>> Cheers,
>>>>>             >>>
>>>>>             >>> Gaurav
>>>>>             >>>
>>>>>             >>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>             >>>
>>>>>             >>> On May 16, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Gaurav Dawra
>>>>>             <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>             br/>>>> <mailto:gdawra.ietf@
>>>>>             <mailto:gdawra.ietf@>@gmail..com <http://gmail.com>>>
>>>>>             wrote:
>>>>>             >>>
>>>>>             >>>> Hi Martin, 
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> Apologies from my end we had few internal authors
>>>>>             conversations on br/>>>>> the points you have raised. <
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> Please find below my response. I will be happy to discuss further, br/>>>>> if needed. <
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> <Gaurav> inline... 
>>>>>             >>>>
>>>>>             >>>>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Martin Stiemerling <mls.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>             br/>>>>>> <mailto:mls.iietf@gmail.com
>>>>>             <mailto:mls.iietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> Hi Gaurav, 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> This got lost on my end, sorry for this. The filter
>>>>>             just moved br/>>>>>> these messages out of my sight...
>>>>>             :-/
>>>>>             >>>>>
>>>>>             >>>>> Am 15.02.18 um 05:47 schrieb Gaurav Dawra: 
>>>>>             >>>>>> Hey Martin, 
>>>>>             >>>>>> Sorry for late reply. Please see some comments inline[Gaurav]
>>>>>             >>>>>>> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Martin Stiemerling
>>>>>             br/>>>>>>>> <mls.ietf@@gmail.com <http://gmail.com>
>>>>>             <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>>             <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com>> br/>>>>>>>>;
>>>>>             <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>>             <mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Hi all, 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> I've reviewed this document as part of the transport
>>>>>             area review br/>>>>>>>> team's ongoing effort to
>>>>>             review key IETF documents. These br/>>>&gtt;>>>>
>>>>>             comments were written primarily for the transport area
>>>>>             directors, br/>>>>>>>> but are copied to the
>>>>>             doocument's authors for their information br/>>>>>>>&>
>>>>>             and to allow them to address any issues raised. When
>>>>>             done at the
>>>>>             >>>>>>> time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review br/>>>>>>>> together with any
>>>>>             other last-call comments they receive. Please
>>>>>             br/>>>&>>>>> always CC tsv-art@… if you reply to or
>>>>>             forward this review.
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Summary: 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> This draft has serious issues in Section 7..1, 7.2 and in one part br/>>>>>>>> of Secction3,
>>>>>             described in the review, and needs to be rethought.
>>>>>             br/>>&>>>>>> The other sections are good AFAIK.
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Technicals: 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> The overall draft looks ok, but the three points below look br/>>>>>>>> strange and need a fix
>>>>>             before publication IMHO:
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Both Sections, 7.1. and 7.2., are describing ideas, but not well br/>>>>>>>> proven
>>>>>             funcationality and not even safe to use functionality.
>>>>>             br/>>>&>>>>> Both are some sort discussing that
>>>>>             different paths in the network br/>>>>>>>> could be
>>>>>             used by the eend host traffic. This sounds pretty much
>>>>>             br/>>>>>>&gtt;> like the Path Aware Networking
>>>>>             Proposed Research Group br/>&gtt;>>>>>>
>>>>>             (https://irtf.org/panrg) and hints to the fact that
>>>>>             there is no br/>>>>>>>> commonly understannd and
>>>>>             accepted engineering solution in this space.
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Section 7.1: 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> [KANDULA04] is a really old reference that hasn't been followed br/>>>>>>>> up iin recent times
>>>>>             and even worse there is no evidence that this
>>>>>             br/>&gtt;>>>>>> is going to work good enough or stable
>>>>>             enough under real Internet br/>>>>>>>> traffic.
>>>>>             Additioonally, it is more than unclear how any modern
>>>>>             TCP br/>>>>&ggt;>>> implementation will react to this
>>>>>             >>>>>> [Gaurav] Will get back on this.
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> I will reply to the other email dicussing this. 
>>>>>             >>>> <Gaurav> I have replied to other thread. 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Section 7.2: 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> This section describes an idea without detailing too
>>>>>             much about br/>>>>>>>> any furtther aspects. Further
>>>>>             it changes the commonly accepted br/>>>;>>>>> notion
>>>>>             of what an end host can do with the network. At best
>>>>>             this br/>>>>>>>> would require a good ddefinition of
>>>>>             what an end host in your br/>>>>>>>&ggt; setting is,
>>>>>             e.g., a highly modified piece of (at least) software
>>>>>             >>>>>>> that usually not found in OS availble on the market
>>>>>             (yet?)
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Further communicating instantaneous path
>>>>>             characteristics to a br/>>>>>>>> central point is
>>>>>             potentially a bad idea, as the data is already
>>>>>             br/>>>;>>>>> outdated when reported by any node.
>>>>>             >>>>>> [Gaurav] I believe Authors are trying to highlight that Host which br/>>>>>>> is defineed in
>>>>>             br/>>>>>>>
>>>>>             (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15
>>>>>             <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15>)
>>>>>             br/>>>>>>> can innfluence the traffic based on the
>>>>>             Calculations locally or br/>>&gtt;>>>> jointly with
>>>>>             the controller. Implementations can decide how much
>>>>>             br/>>>>>>> Centralized -vs- localized coontrol is
>>>>>             allowed at Host based on br/>>>>>>> perfoormance data
>>>>>             collection.
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> Performance data collection (monitoring?) isn't crucial when it br/>>>>>> comes to timely (actuaally
>>>>>             real-time) reaction. However, this br/>>>>>> secttion
>>>>>             isn't just about performance data collection as it is
>>>>>             about br/>>>>>>> "Performance-aware routing" this
>>>>>             seems to try to interact in br/>>>>>> real-time with
>>>>>             the network behhavior of TCP. This isn't even close
>>>>>             br/>>>>>> to acceeptable.
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> I would be ok to say that it is useful to collect performance data br/>>>>>> for offline analysis and
>>>>>             improvement of the data network. However,
>>>>>             br/>>>>>&ggt; this is at completely different
>>>>>             magnitues of time scales.
>>>>>             >>>>>
>>>>>             >>>>> I would recommend to remove the TCP part from this section entirely.
>>>>>             >>>> <Gaurav>Ack, will update in next rev: 
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> Section will read like this: 
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> ; 
>>>>>             >>>> /Knowing the path associated with flows/packets, the end host may/
>>>>>             >>>> /deduce certain characteristics of the path on its own, and/
>>>>>             >>>> /additionally use the information supplied with path information/
>>>>>             >>>> /pushed from the controller or received via pull request. The host/
>>>>>             >>>> /may further share its path observations with the centralized agent,/
>>>>>             >>>> /so that the latter may keep up-to-date network health map to assist/
>>>>>             >>>> /other hosts with this information./ 
>>>>>             >>>> // 
>>>>>             >>>> /For example, an application A.1 at HostA may pin a flow destined/
>>>>>             >>>> /to HostZ via Spine node Node5 using label stack {16005, 16011}. The/
>>>>>             >>>> /application A.1 may collect information on packet loss, deduced from/
>>>>>             >>>> /Other offline mechanisms. [There are some pingMesh mechanisms which /
>>>>>             >>>> /Can be used here]/ 
>>>>>             >>>> /Through these mechanisms information to a centralized agent, e.g./
>>>>>             >>>> /after a flow completes, or periodically for longer lived flows./
>>>>>             >>>> /Next, using both local and/or global performance data, application/
>>>>>             >>>> /A.1 as well as other applications sharing the same resources in the/
>>>>>             >>>> /DC fabric may pick up the best path for the new flow, or update an/
>>>>>             >>>> /existing path (e.g.: when informed of congestion on an existing/
>>>>>             >>>> /path)./ 
>>>>>             >>>> ; 
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> Section 3, 3rd bullet point: 
>>>>>             >>>>>>> It is the foundation of TCP that the network is
>>>>>             regarded as a br/>>>>>>>> black box and that you infer
>>>>>             from the transmission of packets br/>>>>;>>>> what the
>>>>>             current state of the network path is. Inferring
>>>>>             network br/>>>>>>>> path metrics (you mention SRTT,
>>>>>             MSS, CWND ) is a bad idea, as br/>>>>>>>>; this would
>>>>>             required that all paths exhibit this and if not what
>>>>>             br//>>>>>>>> is going to happen?
>>>>>             >>>>>>> It could be an interesting research field to change many points br/>>>>>>>> in TCP'ss behavior,
>>>>>             but this once again points to the fact that
>>>>>             br/>>>&>>>>> this not the IETF works but IRTF or
>>>>>             elsewhere.
>>>>>             >>>>>> [Gaurav] Martin, Authors are trying to suggest that TCP is rightly br/>>>>>>> treating Network as
>>>>>             Black Box. Authors are implying per path br/>>>>;>>>
>>>>>             performance metrics as not cached. Is there some
>>>>>             change in text br/>>>>>>> you are suggesting??
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> I would recommend to remove the 3rd bullet point completey. TCP br/>>>>>> isn't the place to rememmber
>>>>>             "good" or "bad" paths. This is br/>>>>>> something the
>>>>>             network could decide, e.g., rerouting TCP flows
>>>>>             br/>&ggt;>>>> within the network or changing the
>>>>>             forwarding path in the network br/>>>>>> for
>>>>>             particular flows (if it is not routed).
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> <Gaurav> Ack, after discussion, we will remove the Section 3 - 3rd br/>>>>> bullet point. Willl
>>>>>             update in next rev - coming shortly.
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>> Kind regards, 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>>>  Martin 
>>>>>             >>>>> 
>>>>>             >>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Tsv-art mailing list
>>>     Tsv-art@ietf.org <mailto:Tsv-art@ietf.org>
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art
>>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art>
>>
>


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    Hi Gaurav,<br>
    <br>
    please see inline.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03.08.2018 07:20, Gaurav Dawra
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMOQah9s57vgjUVynBqZim=7fx0745uQeOKARu8DtKdiFU36ng@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Hey Mirja,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Sorry for the long delay. I was traveling constantly since
          IETF and bit lost in my mailbox and discussion with Authors.
          Please see my response inline[Gaurav]</div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">I think with your changes
                  you addressed explicit problems Martin called out,
                  however, I still have high level concerns about these
                  sections as they are mostly giving speculative
                  recommendation which are not clear to me to work in
                  practice.</span><br>
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">Regarding section 7.1,
                  you say</span></span></sub><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80);background:white"><br>
                "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets from the
                same flow followed by an idle interval."<br>
              </span></sub><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">but
                then you say</span></sub><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
                <span style="background:white">"...then the application
                  can break the elephant flow F into flowlets F1, F2,
                  F3, F4..."</span><br>
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">This sounds like you
                  would just divide an elephant flow mostly randomly
                  into flowlets which can interact badly with the
                  congestion control. If you actually have chunks of
                  data that are transmitted with large enough idle
                  interval in between (as you define flowlets in the
                  first sentence), that is not an elephant flow anymore
                  and it will not help you to "spread the load of the
                  elephant flow through all the ECMP paths". In summary
                  I actually don't see how the concept of flowlets can
                  be helpful to address the problem you have at all, and
                  I still advise you to remove section 7.1 entirely.<span></span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav]
                Hi Mirja, Thanks for the review. </span></sub><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">The
                proposal here is no different that current ECMP hashing
                at flowlet level. The only difference which is being
                pointed out here is that if we use SR, we could leverage
                on the ability of be aware of multiple disjoint paths
                rather than the hashing. It’s pins the flowlets to
                particular paths which is basic SR operations.<br>
              </span></sub></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Yes the problem is that we usually don't recommend ECMP hashing on
    flowlet level because it can interact badly with the end-end
    mechanisms of that flow. As I said, I don't see how the notion of
    flowlets help you problem and therefore I still recommend to remove
    that paragraph.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMOQah9s57vgjUVynBqZim=7fx0745uQeOKARu8DtKdiFU36ng@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">Regarding section 7.2, I
                  also still skeptical about any benefits that can be
                  achieved. Given you are in a data center, the
                  controller should already know about static parameters
                  such as the maximum bandwidth per link. <span></span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">For
                dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate, measuring them
                on a per-flow bases is the wrong thing to do. What I
                mean is you can ask a router about the average loss rate
                that it observes and that might give you some valuable,
                however, if you ask a TCP flow about the average loss
                rate the answer will mainly depend on the congestion
                controller used and the currently available bandwidth,
                which is a very dynamic property and not a link
                characteristic. So this information is not usable for
                performance aware routing. A flow could give you
                information about the observed RTT (min/max) on a
                certain path, or the maximum available bandwidth on a
                path, but as I said, given you are in a data center
                environment these are information that the controller
                already should have anyway.<span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav]
                They are two separate mechanisms. </span></sub><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Most
                DCs have some sort of data-plane/ECMP aware tracing
                mechanism to detect the loss/delays and can be combined
                with Application back-off to detect issue. All this
                section is suggesting is that SR can be used to pin the
                path to particular set of ECMP paths instead of relying
                on ECMP hashing.<br>
              </span></sub></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <sub>This is not quite what the text says. If that is the statement
      you want to make, that is fine but then you don't need to talk
      about performance aware routing at all.</sub><br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMOQah9s57vgjUVynBqZim=7fx0745uQeOKARu8DtKdiFU36ng@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">Your example with
                  detecting a faulty path due to losses does not work
                  with TCP as you never know if these loses are due to a
                  problem on the path, self-induced or by a competing
                  flow. And even if you don't use TCP and e.g. send
                  constant bit rate traffic, there may be a large number
                  of competing TCP flows that can induce the loses. Try
                  to steer traffic "away" on a time-scale that is slower
                  than TCP dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when
                  flows start or end) in case you have a lot of very
                  short flow, in the best case doesn't work and in the
                  worst case leads to oscillation.<span></span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white">[Gaurav]
                As </span></sub><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">I
                said above, there are other mechanisms to detect loss
                and trace the path on which loss is seen. This is a
                common mechanism used in MSDCs.</span></sub></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <sub>I think this is beyond the scope of the document.  </sub><br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMOQah9s57vgjUVynBqZim=7fx0745uQeOKARu8DtKdiFU36ng@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span> </span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">I
                am happy to discuss further over the phone to try to
                explain the thought process. I will also do check again
                with Authors to update the text or something else based
                on our conversation.</span></sub></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Maybe see if some update can be made to the text first and then we
    can have another discussion if needed.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMOQah9s57vgjUVynBqZim=7fx0745uQeOKARu8DtKdiFU36ng@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span> </span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Cheers,<span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span> </span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Gaurav<br>
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">If you want to make TCP
                  use for handover situation where one path might go
                  away or become unusable, it's best to use Multipath
                  TCP (with coupled congestion control) instead because
                  that works on the right time scale. Again, I don't
                  think this is a use case for SR and I would recommend
                  to remove the section entirely.</span><br>
                <br>
                <span style="background:white">Mirja</span></span></sub><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif"><span></span></span></sub></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;"><sub><span
                style="font-size:15pt;font-family:Georgia,serif"><span> </span></span></sub></p>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM,
          Gaurav Dawra <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank"
              moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="auto">Hi Mirja,
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Ack. Let me work with authors to close ASAP.
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Cheers,</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><span class="">Gaurav<br>
                    <br>
                    <div id="m_-8387471352552752171AppleMailSignature">Sent
                      from my iPhone</div>
                  </span>
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">
                      <div><br>
                        On Jul 5, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Mirja Kühlewind
                        &lt;<a href="mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ietf@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<br>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type="cite">
                        <div> Hi Gaurav,<br>
                          <br>
                          sorry for my very long delay but this got
                          somehow a bit lost in my mailbox.<br>
                          <br>
                          I think with your changes you addressed
                          explicit problems Martin called out, however,
                          I still have high level concerns about these
                          sections as they are mostly giving speculative
                          recommendation which are not clear to me to
                          work in practice.<br>
                          <br>
                          Regarding section 7.1, you say<br>
                          "A flowlet is defined as a burst of packets
                          from the same flow followed by an idle
                          interval."<br>
                          but then you say<br>
                          "...then the application can break the
                          elephant flow F into flowlets F1, F2, F3,
                          F4..."<br>
                          <br>
                          This sounds like you would just divide an
                          elephant flow mostly randomly into flowlets
                          which can interact badly with the congestion
                          control. If you actually have chunks of data
                          that are transmitted with large enough idle
                          interval in between (as you define flowlets in
                          the first sentence), that is not an elephant
                          flow anymore and it will not help you to
                          "spread the load of the elephant flow through
                          all the ECMP paths". In summary I actually
                          don't see how the concept of flowlets can be
                          helpful to address the problem you have at
                          all, and I still advise you to remove section
                          7.1 entirely.<br>
                          <br>
                          Regarding section 7.2, I also still skeptical
                          about any benefits that can be achieved. Given
                          you are in a data center, the controller
                          should already know about static parameters
                          such as the maximum bandwidth per link. For
                          dynamic parameters, e.g. like loss rate,
                          measuring them on a per-flow bases is the
                          wrong thing to do. What I mean is you can ask
                          a router about the average loss rate that it
                          observes and that might give you some
                          valuable, however, if you ask a TCP flow about
                          the average loss rate the answer will mainly
                          depend on the congestion controller used and
                          the currently available bandwidth, which is a
                          very dynamic property and not a link
                          characteristic. So this information is not
                          usable for performance aware routing. A flow
                          could give you information about the observed
                          RTT (min/max) on a certain path, or the
                          maximum available bandwidth on a path, but as
                          I said, given you are in a data center
                          environment these are information that the
                          controller already should have anyway.<br>
                          <br>
                          Your example with detecting a faulty path due
                          to losses does not work with TCP as you never
                          know if these loses are due to a problem on
                          the path, self-induced or by a competing flow.
                          And even if you don't use TCP and e.g. send
                          constant bit rate traffic, there may be a
                          large number of competing TCP flows that can
                          induce the loses. Try to steer traffic "away"
                          on a time-scale that is slower than TCP
                          dynamics or even your flow dynamic (when flows
                          start or end) in case you have a lot of very
                          short flow, in the best case doesn't work and
                          in the worst case leads to oscillation.<br>
                          <br>
                          If you want to make TCP use for handover
                          situation where one path might go away or
                          become unusable, it's best to use Multipath
                          TCP (with coupled congestion control) instead
                          because that works on the right time scale.
                          Again, I don't think this is a use case for SR
                          and I would recommend to remove the section
                          entirely.<br>
                          <br>
                          Mirja<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <div
                            class="m_-8387471352552752171moz-cite-prefix">On
                            05.07.2018 04:08, Gaurav Dawra wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div dir="ltr">Hey Alvaro, Mirja, 
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Friendly reminder to further progress
                                this document.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Cheers,</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Gaurav</div>
                            </div>
                            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                              <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 18,
                                2018 at 5:13 PM, Gaurav Dawra <span
                                  dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                wrote:<br>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div dir="auto">Hi Alvaro, Mirja 
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Any feedback or next steps to
                                      close this?</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Cheers,</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><span>Gaurav<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div
                                          id="m_-8387471352552752171m_3580719019654713542AppleMailSignature">Sent
                                          from my iPhone</div>
                                      </span>
                                      <div>
                                        <div
                                          class="m_-8387471352552752171h5">
                                          <div><br>
                                            On Jun 12, 2018, at 7:06 AM,
                                            Gaurav Dawra &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <br>
                                          </div>
                                          <blockquote type="cite">
                                            <div>
                                              <div dir="ltr">Hi Mirja,
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>Friendly
                                                  Reminder...Could you
                                                  please also advice if
                                                  there is anything
                                                  further to DISCUSS on
                                                  this document which
                                                  was also related to
                                                  TCP updates below?</div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>Cheers,</div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>Gaurav</div>
                                                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                  <div
                                                    class="gmail_quote">On
                                                    Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at
                                                    9:02 AM, Alvaro
                                                    Retana <span
                                                      dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                                        href="mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com"
                                                        target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">aretana.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
                                                    <blockquote
                                                      class="gmail_quote"
                                                      style="margin:0 0
                                                      0
                                                      .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                      #ccc
                                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                      <p
                                                        style="margin:0.0px
                                                        0.0px 0.0px
                                                        0.0px"><font
                                                          size="4"
                                                          face="Helvetica">Thanks
                                                          Martin!</font></p>
                                                      <span> <br>
                                                        <p
class="m_-8387471352552752171m_3580719019654713542m_7352406945680739771airmail_on">On
                                                          June 6, 2018
                                                          at 3:14:45 PM,
                                                          Martin
                                                          Stiemerling (<a
href="mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>)
                                                          wrote:</p>
                                                      </span>
                                                      <blockquote
                                                        type="cite"
class="m_-8387471352552752171m_3580719019654713542m_7352406945680739771clean_bq"><span>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><span>Hi
                                                          Alvaro, all, <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Thanks for
                                                          addressing my
                                                          concerns. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          This version
                                                          is good to go
                                                          from my side.
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Kind regards,
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          ;Martin <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Am 30.05.18 um
                                                          21:55 schrieb
                                                          Alvaro Retana:
                                                          <br>
                                                          &gt; Martin: <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;
                                                          Hi!!  How are
                                                          you? <br>
                                                          &gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;
                                                          Gaurav just
                                                          posted a
                                                          revision. 
                                                          Please takke a
                                                          look and let
                                                          us know if
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;
                                                          the changes
                                                          address your
                                                          concerrns or
                                                          not. <br>
                                                          &gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt; <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-09"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff??<wbr>url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment<wbr>-routing-msdc-09</a>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;
                                                          Thanks!!! <br>
                                                          &gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;
                                                          Alvaro. &lt; <br>
                                                          &gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt; On
                                                          May 25, 2018
                                                          at 12:08:46
                                                          PM, Gaurav
                                                          Dawra ((<a
                                                          href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a
href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;)
                                                          wrote: <br>
                                                          &gt;
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Hi Martin,
                                                          &lt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;
                                                          Thanks for
                                                          review. I will
                                                          post the new
                                                          version.
                                                          Hopefully, it
                                                          will
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          address all
                                                          your comments
                                                          and we can
                                                          close thhis
                                                          review. <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;
                                                          <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; Any
                                                          updates on
                                                          below
                                                          response? <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;
                                                          Cheers, <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;
                                                          Gaurav <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; Sent
                                                          from my iPhone
                                                          <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </span><span>&gt;&gt;
                                                          On May 23,
                                                          2018, at 4:17
                                                          AM, Gaurav
                                                          Dawra &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a
href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote: <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Hi Martin, <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Thanks for the
                                                          review. Any
                                                          further
                                                          comments here
                                                          ? I will post
                                                          the
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          new version
                                                          soon. &lt; <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Cheers, <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Gaurav <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Sent from my
                                                          iPhone <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </span><span>&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          On May 16,
                                                          2018, at 7:44
                                                          PM, Gaurav
                                                          Dawra &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@gmail.com</a>
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:gdawra.ietf@" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gdawra.ietf@</a>@<a
href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gmail..<wbr>com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote: <br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Martin, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Apologies from
                                                          my end we had
                                                          few internal
                                                          authors
                                                          conversations
                                                          on
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          the points you
                                                          have raised.
                                                          &lt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please find below my response. I will be happy to
                                                          discuss
                                                          further,
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          if needed.
                                                          &lt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt; inline... <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 9, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Martin Stiemerling &lt;<a
href="mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a
                                                          href="mailto:mls.iietf@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mls.iietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gaurav, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          This got lost
                                                          on my end,
                                                          sorry for
                                                          this. The
                                                          filter just
                                                          moved
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          these messages
                                                          out of my
                                                          sight... :-/ <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Am 15.02.18 um 05:47 schrieb Gaurav Dawra: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey Martin, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry for late reply. Please see some comments
                                                          inline[Gaurav]
                                                          <br>
                                                          </span><span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          On Jan 9,
                                                          2018, at 2:25
                                                          PM, Martin
                                                          Stiemerling
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          &lt;mls.ietf@@<a
href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gmail.com</a>
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;; &lt;mailto:<a
                                                          href="mailto:mls.ietf@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mls.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi all, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          I've reviewed
                                                          this document
                                                          as part of the
                                                          transport area
                                                          review
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          team's ongoing
                                                          effort to
                                                          review key
                                                          IETF
                                                          documents.
                                                          These
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          comments were
                                                          written
                                                          primarily for
                                                          the transport
                                                          area
                                                          directors,
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          but are copied
                                                          to the
                                                          doocument's
                                                          authors for
                                                          their
                                                          information
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;
                                                          and to allow
                                                          them to
                                                          address any
                                                          issues raised.
                                                          When done at
                                                          the <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; time of IETF Last Call, the authors should
                                                          consider this
                                                          review
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          together with
                                                          any other
                                                          last-call
                                                          comments they
                                                          receive.
                                                          Please
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          always CC
                                                          tsv-art@… if
                                                          you reply to
                                                          or forward
                                                          this review. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Summary: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This draft has serious issues in Section
                                                          7..1, 7.2 and
                                                          in one part
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          of Secction3,
                                                          described in
                                                          the review,
                                                          and needs to
                                                          be rethought.
br/&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The other sections are good
                                                          AFAIK. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Technicals: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The overall draft looks ok, but the three
                                                          points below
                                                          look
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          strange and
                                                          need a fix
                                                          before
                                                          publication
                                                          IMHO: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Both Sections, 7.1. and 7.2., are
                                                          describing
                                                          ideas, but not
                                                          well
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          proven
                                                          funcationality
                                                          and not even
                                                          safe to use
                                                          functionality.
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Both are some sort discussing
                                                          that different
                                                          paths in the
                                                          network
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          could be used
                                                          by the eend
                                                          host traffic.
                                                          This sounds
                                                          pretty much
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt; like the Path Aware Networking
                                                          Proposed
                                                          Research Group
br/&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (<a
                                                          href="https://irtf.org/panrg"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://irtf.org/panrg</a>) and
                                                          hints to the
                                                          fact that
                                                          there is no
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          commonly
                                                          understannd
                                                          and accepted
                                                          engineering
                                                          solution in
                                                          this space. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Section 7.1: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [KANDULA04] is a really old reference that
                                                          hasn't been
                                                          followed
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          up iin recent
                                                          times and even
                                                          worse there is
                                                          no evidence
                                                          that this
                                                          br/&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          is going to
                                                          work good
                                                          enough or
                                                          stable enough
                                                          under real
                                                          Internet
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          traffic.
                                                          Additioonally,
                                                          it is more
                                                          than unclear
                                                          how any modern
                                                          TCP
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          implementation
                                                          will react to
                                                          this <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          [Gaurav] Will
                                                          get back on
                                                          this. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I will reply to the other email dicussing this. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt; I have replied to other thread. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Section 7.2: <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          This section
                                                          describes an
                                                          idea without
                                                          detailing too
                                                          much about
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any furtther aspects. Further it
                                                          changes the
                                                          commonly
                                                          accepted
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          notion of what
                                                          an end host
                                                          can do with
                                                          the network.
                                                          At best this
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          would require
                                                          a good
                                                          ddefinition of
                                                          what an end
                                                          host in your
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;
                                                          setting is,
                                                          e.g., a highly
                                                          modified piece
                                                          of (at least)
                                                          software <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          that usually
                                                          not found in
                                                          OS availble on
                                                          the market
                                                          (yet?) <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Further
                                                          communicating
                                                          instantaneous
                                                          path
                                                          characteristics
                                                          to a
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          central point
                                                          is potentially
                                                          a bad idea, as
                                                          the data is
                                                          already
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; outdated when reported by any node.
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [Gaurav] I believe Authors are trying to
                                                          highlight that
                                                          Host which
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          is defineed in
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (<a
                                                          href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draftt-ietf-spring-segment-routing-15"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raftt-ietf-spring-segment-rout<wbr>ing-15</a>)
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can innfluence the traffic based on the
                                                          Calculations
                                                          locally or
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&amp;gtt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          jointly with
                                                          the
                                                          controller.
                                                          Implementations
                                                          can decide how
                                                          much
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          Centralized
                                                          -vs- localized
                                                          coontrol is
                                                          allowed at
                                                          Host based on
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; perfoormance data collection. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Performance data collection (monitoring?) isn't
                                                          crucial when
                                                          it
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          comes to
                                                          timely
                                                          (actuaally
                                                          real-time)
                                                          reaction.
                                                          However, this
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; secttion isn't just about performance data
                                                          collection as
                                                          it is about
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
"Performance-aware routing" this seems to try to interact in
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          real-time with
                                                          the network
                                                          behhavior of
                                                          TCP. This
                                                          isn't even
                                                          close
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          to
                                                          acceeptable. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would be ok to say that it is useful to collect
                                                          performance
                                                          data
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          for offline
                                                          analysis and
                                                          improvement of
                                                          the data
                                                          network.
                                                          However,
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;ggt;
                                                          this is at
                                                          completely
                                                          different
                                                          magnitues of
                                                          time scales. <br>
                                                          <span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would recommend to remove the TCP part from this
                                                          section
                                                          entirely. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt;Ack, will update in next rev: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Section will read like this: <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Knowing the path associated with flows/packets, the
                                                          end host may/
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /deduce certain characteristics of the path on its own,
                                                          and/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /additionally use the information supplied with path
                                                          information/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /pushed from the controller or received via pull
                                                          request. The
                                                          host/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /may further share its path observations with the
                                                          centralized
                                                          agent,/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /so that the latter may keep up-to-date network health
                                                          map to assist/
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /other hosts with this information./ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; // <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /For example, an application A.1 at HostA may pin a
                                                          flow destined/
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /to HostZ via Spine node Node5 using label stack
                                                          {16005,
                                                          16011}. The/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /application A.1 may collect information on packet
                                                          loss, deduced
                                                          from/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Other offline mechanisms. [There are some pingMesh
                                                          mechanisms
                                                          which / <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Can be used here]/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Through these mechanisms information to a centralized
                                                          agent, e.g./ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /after a flow completes, or periodically for longer
                                                          lived flows./
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /Next, using both local and/or global performance data,
                                                          application/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /A.1 as well as other applications sharing the same
                                                          resources in
                                                          the/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /DC fabric may pick up the best path for the new flow,
                                                          or update an/
                                                          <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /existing path (e.g.: when informed of congestion on an
                                                          existing/ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; /path)./ <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Section 3, 3rd bullet point: <br>
                                                          </span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          It is the
                                                          foundation of
                                                          TCP that the
                                                          network is
                                                          regarded as a
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; black box and that you infer from
                                                          the
                                                          transmission
                                                          of packets
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what the current state of the
                                                          network path
                                                          is. Inferring
                                                          network
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          path metrics
                                                          (you mention
                                                          SRTT, MSS,
                                                          CWND ) is a
                                                          bad idea, as
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;
                                                          this would
                                                          required that
                                                          all paths
                                                          exhibit this
                                                          and if not
                                                          what
                                                          br//&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          is going to
                                                          happen? <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It could be an interesting research field
                                                          to change many
                                                          points
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          in TCP'ss
                                                          behavior, but
                                                          this once
                                                          again points
                                                          to the fact
                                                          that
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          this not the
                                                          IETF works but
                                                          IRTF or
                                                          elsewhere. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [Gaurav] Martin, Authors are trying to suggest
                                                          that TCP is
                                                          rightly
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          treating
                                                          Network as
                                                          Black Box.
                                                          Authors are
                                                          implying per
                                                          path
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          performance
                                                          metrics as not
                                                          cached. Is
                                                          there some
                                                          change in text
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you are suggesting?? <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would recommend to remove the 3rd bullet point
                                                          completey. TCP
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; isn't the place to rememmber "good" or "bad"
                                                          paths. This is
br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; something the network could decide, e.g.,
                                                          rerouting TCP
                                                          flows
                                                          br/&gt;&amp;ggt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          within the
                                                          network or
                                                          changing the
                                                          forwarding
                                                          path in the
                                                          network
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          for particular
                                                          flows (if it
                                                          is not
                                                          routed). <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Gaurav&gt; Ack, after discussion, we will remove
                                                          the Section 3
                                                          - 3rd
                                                          br/&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
                                                          bullet
                                                          point. Willl
                                                          update in next
                                                          rev - coming
                                                          shortly. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kind regards, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;  Martin <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </span></blockquote>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <br>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </blockquote>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset
                              class="m_-8387471352552752171mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Tsv-art mailing list
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</pre>
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                          <br>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
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              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
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Hi all,

SPRING minutes have been uploaded: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102=
/materials/minutes-102-spring-00
For each agenda item, there is also an URL to the video.

Please review and comment as needed.

Thank you Linda for taking the minutes.

Regards,
--Bruno

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ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">SPRING minutes have been u=
ploaded:
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-s=
pring-00">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-spring-00</a=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">For each agenda item, ther=
e is also an URL to the video.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Please review and comment =
as needed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thank you Linda for taking=
 the minutes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">--Bruno<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

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tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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</PRE></body>
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From nobody Thu Aug 16 13:41:35 2018
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From: "Yutianpeng (Tim)" <yutianpeng@huawei.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Yang data model for SID forwarding counters
Thread-Index: AdQ1oBekbdOca5QcT8GXwxPuJ9EXKQ==
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 20:41:27 +0000
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Hi,
I am trying to find data model for SID forwarding counters, but I only find=
 SRV6 based counters in "draft-raza-spring-srv6-yang-00".
I think it is quite important to have YANG data models for IGP based or BGP=
 EPE also.
Can we put this inside "draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang"? It might be better to p=
ut this inside a common data model instead of per protocol basis one.

Thanks & Regards,
Tim

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I am trying to find=
 data model for SID forwarding counters, but I only find SRV6 based counter=
s in &#8220;draft-raza-spring-srv6-yang-00&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I think it is quite=
 important to have YANG data models for IGP based or BGP EPE also.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Can we put this ins=
ide &#8220;draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang&#8221;? It might be better to put this=
 inside a common data model instead of per protocol basis one.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Thanks &amp; Regard=
s,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Tim<o:p></o:p></spa=
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" <draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: some comments to draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
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Clarence, et al,

Does your draft cover the scenario of a node "N"  in Section 5 (Transit Beh=
avior) belonging to a different administrative domain?

Section 7 is on Intra Domain deployment Basic Security, will you consider "=
Inter Domain" basic security?

I assume that "SEC 1", "SEC 2" etc. are meant for Identifying "Basic Securi=
ty". Can you use a "SEC-1", or "SEC-REQ-1", etc. to make it easier for cros=
s reference from other documents?

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Clarence, et al, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does your draft cover the scenario of a node &#8220;=
N&#8221;&nbsp; in Section 5 (Transit Behavior) belonging to a different adm=
inistrative domain?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 7 is on Intra Domain deployment Basic Securi=
ty, will you consider &#8220;Inter Domain&#8221; basic security?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I assume that &#8220;SEC 1&#8221;, &#8220;SEC 2&#822=
1; etc. are meant for Identifying &#8220;Basic Security&#8221;. Can you use=
 a &#8220;SEC-1&#8221;, or &#8220;SEC-REQ-1&#8221;, etc. to make it easier =
for cross reference from other documents?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Linda Dunbar<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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From dominik.pataky@tu-dresden.de  Thu Aug 16 07:36:53 2018
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Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 16:36:46 +0200
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Subject: [spring] Segment Routing & SRv6 research/summary paper
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From: Dominik Pataky <dominik.pataky@tu-dresden.de>
To: spring@ietf.org
Message-ID: <3ea28895-927b-6f15-76a2-260dcc39790e@tu-dresden.de>
Subject: Segment Routing & SRv6 research/summary paper

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Dear SPRING list,

I'm a student at the TU Dresden, Germany, and recently finished my short
research/summary paper on the topic =E2=80=9ESegment Routing and SRv6:
Origins, State-of-the-Art and Outlook=E2=80=9C. Maybe some of you are int=
erested
in it. Feedback is also very welcome!

The document is released under CC BY-SA 4.0 and available online at
https://dpataky.eu/segment-routing-paper

Best regards,
Dominik Pataky




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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" <draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: some comments to draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
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Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 20:45:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] some comments to draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
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To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Ahmed Bashandy <abashandy.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Ahmed: Ping!!

We=E2=80=99re really close=E2=80=A6

Alvaro.

On July 26, 2018 at 4:27:25 PM, Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu) wrote:

Hi Ahmed,

Thanks for posting the update (and sorry for only getting to it now).

The two specific points I raised in my DISCUSS ballot are properly
addressed, but before I go clear that I was hoping you could help me
remember why the following text was removed when going from -13 to -14:

[...] Because this document recognizes that
miscofiguration and/or programming may result in false or conflicting
label binding advertisements, thereby compromising traffic
forwarding, the document recommends strict configuration/
programmability control as well as montoring the SID advertised and
log/error messages by the operator to avoid or at least significantly
minimize the possibility of such risk.

I couldn't find anything in my email history that helped jog my memory.

Thanks,

Benjamin

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 02:10:37PM -0700, Ahmed Bashandy wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just posted version 14
>
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-14.tx=
t
>
> Thanks
>
> Ahmed
>
>
>
> On 7/10/18 7:11 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> > Hi Bruno,
> >
> > Thanks for the additional clarifications in the suggested text -- it
looks
> > good to me, so you and Ahmed should please go ahead with it (once
> > submissions open up again).
> >
> > -Benjamin
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 12:49:28PM +0000, bruno.decraene@orange.com
wrote:
> >> Hi Benjamin,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the discussion.
> >> Please see inline [Bruno2]
> >>
> >>> From: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:53 AM
> >> > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 12:36:20PM +0000, bruno.decraene@orange.com
wrote:
> >> > > Hi Benjamin,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for your comments.
> >> > > Please see inline another addition to Ahmed's answer. [Bruno]
> >> > >
> >> > > > From: Ahmed Bashandy [mailto:abashandy.ietf@gmail.com]
> >> > > > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 2:30 AM
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi
> >> > > > Thanks for the review
> >> > > >
> >> > > > See reply to the comment at #Ahmed
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Ahmed
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On 6/20/18 9:40 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> >> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> >> > > > > draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-13: Discuss
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
to all
> >> > > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
cut this
> >> > > > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Please refer to
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
here:
> >> > > > >
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-inte=
rop/
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > > > DISCUSS:
> >> > > > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I may be missing something, but I don't see anything that says
whether the
> >> > > > > preference field introduced in Section 3.2.3 uses larger
values or smaller
> >> > > > > values for more-preferred SRMSes.
> >> > > > #Ahmed:
> >> > > > If I understand this statement correctly, the concern is about
which
> >> > > > label(s) get assigned to which prefix(es). This concern is
addressed as
> >> > > > follows
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From the MPLS architecture point of view, there is nothing wrong
in
> >> > > > having multiple labels for the same prefix. Segment routing in
general
> >> > > > and this document in particular did not introduce this behavior
nor did
> >> > > > they prohibit/restrict/relax it. For example, an implementation
that
> >> > > > allows the operator to locally assign multiple local labels to
the same
> >> > > > prefix may continue to apply this behavior whether the platform
supports
> >> > > > segment routing or not, in which case it is up to the
implementation
> >> > > > and/or the configuration affecting the MPLS forwarding plane to
specify
> >> > > > how to behave when multiple labels are assigned to the same
prefix. Such
> >> > > > behavior is a general MPLS behavior that outside the scope of
and is not
> >> > > > modified by segment routing.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > However the opposite, where the same label gets assigned to
multiple
> >> > > > prefixes resulting in label collision is problematic. This
document
> >> > > > prohibits label collision resulting from the use of SRMS (which
is
> >> > > > introduced by this document) in the first bullet starting at the
3rd
> >> > > > line of page 12:
> >> > > >   "-  If there is an incoming label collision as specified in
> >> > > >       [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] , apply the steps
specified
> >> > > >       in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] to resolve the
> >> > > >       collision.""
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The introduction of the SRMS is also introducing a new way for
a protocol
> >> > > > > participant to make claims about route prefixes directed at
"third parties"
> >> > > > > (non-MS, non-MC routers). While routing protocols in general
do require high
> >> > > > > levels of trust in all participants in order for proper
routing to occur, this
> >> > > > > addition seems to create a "first among equals" situation that
could be called
> >> > > > > out more clearly in the security considerations. (I do
appreciate that the
> >> > > > > requirement for preferring SIDs advertised in prefix
reachability
> >> > > > > advertisements over those advertised in mapping server
advertisements does help
> >> > > > > alleviate some of the risk.)
> >> > >
> >> > > [Bruno]
> >> > > 1) As the SID attached to the prefix reachability is more
preferred than the SID advertised by the
> >> > SRMS, I would kind of argue that the SRMS is more "last among
equals" :-)
> >> > > 2) I agree that routing protocols, especially Link State Internal
Routing Protocols, do require high
> >> > levels of trusts among participants. In particular, please note that
any node can already advertise
> >> > any IP prefix (with any attached SID), and with any metric/cost,
hence attracting the traffic. In this
> >> > regards, I don't really see an increased risk in IGP routing.
> >> >
> >> > I don't really see an increased risk per se, either (since all
routers can
> >> > break routing in all sorts of ways), but I do see a new mechanism by
which
> >> > certain routers can cause routing breakage. So I was thinking "first
among
> >> > equals" in terms of "more ways to break things", not "can break
things with
> >> > a larger magnitude of breakage". You are right that the preference
order
> >> > that Ahmed described does mean that this new "mechanism for
breakage" is
> >> > only applicable when there are no explicit prefix-SID advertisements
> >> > received via the IGP. So in that sense this new mechanism for
breakage is
> >> > "last among equals", as you say, because it can only take effect if
the IGP
> >> > leaves room for it.
> >>
> >> [Bruno2] Ack; I believe we are in sync.
> >>
> >> > > 3) I agree that SRMS allows for a "centralized" SID advertisement.
I personally don't feel that this
> >> > is more risky than a "centralized" BGP Route Reflector. However, I'm
not against raising this in the
> >> > security consideration section.
> >> > > Please see below a proposed text. Please comment/propose text as
required.
> >> > >
> >> > > OLD:
> >> > > This document introduces another form of label binding
> >> > > advertisements. The security associated with these advertisement
is
> >> > > part of the security applied to routing protocols such as IS-IS
> >> > > [RFC5304] and OSPF [RFC5709] which both optionally make use of
> >> > > cryptographic authentication mechanisms. This document also
> >> > > specifies a mechanism by which the ill effects of advertising
> >> > > conflicting label bindings can be mitigated.
> >> > >
> >> > > NEW:
> >> > > This document introduces another form of label binding
> >> > > advertisements. The security associated with these advertisements
is
> >> > > part of the security applied to routing protocols such as IS-IS
> >> > > [RFC5304] and OSPF [RFC5709] which both optionally make use of
> >> > > cryptographic authentication mechanisms.
> >> > > This form of advertisement is more centralized, on behalf of the
node advertising the IP
> >> > reachability.
> >> > > This document also
> >> > > specifies a mechanism by which the ill effects of advertising
> >> > > conflicting label bindings can be mitigated. In particular,
advertisements from the node
> >> > advertsising the IP reachability is more preference than the
centralized one.
> >> >
> >> > I think that's enough to resolve my DISCUSS point. I would prefer if
there
> >> > was a little bit more text, such as "more centralized, on behalf of
the
> >> > node advertising the IP reachability, which presents a different
risk
> >> > profile than existing mechanisms for distributing label bindings",
but your
> >> > version does cover the key point.
> >>
> >> [Bruno2] ok. Proposed NEW2:
> >>
> >> This document introduces another form of label binding
> >> advertisements. The security associated with these advertisements is
> >> part of the security applied to routing protocols such as IS-IS
> >> [RFC5304] and OSPF [RFC5709] which both optionally make use of
> >> cryptographic authentication mechanisms.
> >> This form of advertisement is more centralized, on behalf of the node
advertising the IP reachability, which presents a different risk profile.
> >> This document also
> >> specifies a mechanism by which the ill effects of advertising
> >> conflicting label bindings can be mitigated. In particular,
advertisements from the node advertising the IP reachability is more
preferred than the centralized one.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In short, I used your proposed text but removed " than existing
mechanisms for distributing label bindings" as this could be read as "LDP".
We could add more text to distinguish, but IMO the current text seems fine.
> >>
> >>
> >> > (And to be clear, I am not trying to say
> >> > that the centralized risk is better or worse in all cases; it's just
> >> > different, so we should call that out to the reader and inform their
decision
> >> > making.)
> >>
> >> [Bruno2] In sync. I agree with you that we should call that out to the
reader and inform their decision making. Thanks for bringing the comment.
> >> I'll work with Ahmed, to have the draft reflect this, as he has the
pen.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Bruno
> >>
> >>
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Benjamin
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks,
> >> > > --Bruno
> >> > >
> >> > > > #Ahmed:
> >> > > > If I understand your comment, the concern is about
> >> > > > "first-come-first-serve" behavior. I believe this concern is
addressed
> >> > > > as follows
> >> > > > (1) The sentence starting at the fourth line of the second
paragraph in
> >> > > > page 10 says:
> >> > > >    For a given prefix, if an MC receives an SR mapping
advertisement
> >> > > >    from a mapping server and also has received a prefix-SID
> >> > > >    advertisement for that same prefix in a prefix reachability
> >> > > >    advertisement, then the MC MUST prefer the SID advertised in
the
> >> > > >    prefix reachability advertisement over the mapping server
> >> > > >    advertisement i.e., the mapping server advertisment MUST be
ignored
> >> > > >    for that prefix.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (2) The last bullet at the bottom of page 11 says:
> >> > > >    -  For any prefix for which it did not receive a prefix-SID
> >> > > >       advertisement, the MCC applies the SRMS mapping
advertisments with
> >> > > >       the highest preference.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (3) The first bullet near the top pf page 12 says:
> >> > > >    -  If there is an incoming label collision as specified in
> >> > > >       [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] , apply the steps
specified
> >> > > >       in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] to resolve the
> >> > > >       collision.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > So for the same set of received advertisements (SRMS
advertisements,
> >> > > > prefix-SID advertisements, or combination of both), the same set
of
> >> > > > labels will be assigned to the same prefix. As mentioned in my
previous
> >> > > > comments, if multiple labels get assigned to the same prefix,
the
> >> > > > behavior is not related to segment routing
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Regarding placing a comment in the security section, IMO a
specification
> >> > > > of which advertisement(s) to use when receiving multiple
(conflicting or
> >> > > > non-conflicting) advertisements has nothing to do with security.
It is
> >> > > > an externally visible protocol(s) behavior that should be
specified in
> >> > > > the sections covering the protocol(s) themselves rather than
security
> >> > > > consideration of the protocol(s).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > But if you still think there is a need to mention something in
the
> >> > > > security section, a suggestion from your side will be greatly
appreciated .
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > > > COMMENT:
> >> > > > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I support Alissa's suggestion about the text covering
cryptographic authentication.
> >> > > > #Ahmed: I modified the statement as Alissa suggested in version
14 that
> >> > > > will be published in the next 1-2 days
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "[100,300]" and "(100,200)" are each used as an example SRGB.
In
> >> > > > > some contexts the round versus square brackets indicate a
> >> > > > > distinction between "closed" (includes endpoints) and "open"
(does
> >> > > > > not include endpoints) intervals. If there's no need to make
such a
> >> > > > > distinction, I suggest standardizing one one format.
> >> > > > #Ahmed: I changed both of them to use [] in version because we
mean
> >> > > > inclusive
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > As was mentioned in the secdir review, it would be good to
expand FEC and LFA on first
> >> > usage.
> >> > > > #Ahmed: Corrected in version 14 that will be published in the
next 1-2 days
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Section 1
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Section 2 describes the co-existence of SR with other MPLS
Control
> >> > > > > Plane. [...]
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > nit: "other MPLS Control Plane" seems to be an incomplete
compound noun
> >> > > > > -- is it other control plane technologies that are being
considered?
> >> > > > #Ahmed: I added "protocols" in version 14 to clarify that
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Section 2
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Note that this static label allocation capability of the label
> >> > > > > manager exists for many years across several vendors and hence
is not
> >> > > > > new. Furthermore, note that the label-manager ability to
statically
> >> > > > > allocate a range of labels to a specific application is not
new
> >> > > > > either. [...]
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > nits: "has existed", "label-manager's ability".
> >> > > > #Ahmed: Corrected (thanks a lot)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Section 2.1
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > MPLS2MPLS refers the forwarding behavior where a router
receives an
> >> > > > > labeled packet and switches it out as a labeled packet.
Several
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > nit: "refers to", "a labeled packet"
> >> > > > #Ahmed: Corrected
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Section 3.2
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > This section defines the Segment Routing Mapping Server
(SRMS). The
> >> > > > > SRMS is a IGP node advertising mapping between Segment
Identifiers
> >> > > > > (SID) and prefixes advertised by other IGP nodes. The SRMS
uses a
> >> > > > > dedicated IGP extension (IS-IS, OSPF and OSPFv3) which is
protocol
> >> > > > > specific and defined in
[I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions],
> >> > > > > [I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions], and
> >> > > > > [I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-routing-extensions].
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > nit: Perhaps "IS-IS, OSPFv2, and OSPFv3 are currently
supported" is a
> >> > > > > better parenthetical?
> >> > > > #Ahmed: Corrected in the next version
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The example diagram depicted in Figure 3 assumes that the
operator
> >> > > > > configures P5 to act as a Segment Routing Mapping Server
(SRMS) and
> >> > > > > advertises the following mappings: (P7, 107), (P8, 108), (PE3,
103)
> >> > > > > and (PE4, 104).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > nit: I think this is Figure 2.
> >> > > > #Ahmed: Corrected in the next version
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Section 3.2.1
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > [...] Examples
> >> > > > > of explicit prefix-SID advertisment are the prefix-SID
sub-TLVs
> >> > > > > defined in ([I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions],
> >> > > > > [I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions], and
> >> > > > > [I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-routing-extensions]).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Would draft-ietf-idr-bgp-prefix-sid (also on this week's
telechat)
> >> > > > > be appropriate for inclusion in this list?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > for that prefix. Hence assigning a prefix-SID to a prefix
using the
> >> > > > > SRMS functionality does not preclude assigning the same or
different
> >> > > > > prefix-SID(s) to the same prefix using explict prefix-SID
> >> > > > > advertisement such as the aforementioned prefix-SID sub-TLV.
> >> > > > #Ahmed: The SRMS functionality is specific to IGPs as mentioned
in the
> >> > > > second sentence of the second paragraph in Section 3.2
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > nit: I think the aforementioned things were a list, so
"sub-TLVs" plural
> >> > > > > would be appropriate.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Including the name for IS-IS TLV 135 might be helpful for the
> >> > > > > reader.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > #Ahmed: Corrected as suggested in the next version
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____

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> >>
> >>
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--0000000000003aa9d10574952d11
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto">Ahmed: Ping!!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);ma=
rgin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px=
;line-height:auto">We=E2=80=99re really close=E2=80=A6</div><div id=3D"bloo=
p_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb=
a(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_custom=
font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,=
1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Alvaro.</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on"=
>On July 26, 2018 at 4:27:25 PM, Benjamin Kaduk (<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mi=
t.edu">kaduk@mit.edu</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cle=
an_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>Hi Ahmed,
<br>
<br>Thanks for posting the update (and sorry for only getting to it now).
<br>
<br>The two specific points I raised in my DISCUSS ballot are properly
<br>addressed, but before I go clear that I was hoping you could help me
<br>remember why the following text was removed when going from -13 to -14:
<br>
<br>   [...] Because this document recognizes that
<br>   miscofiguration and/or programming may result in false or conflictin=
g
<br>   label binding advertisements, thereby compromising traffic
<br>   forwarding, the document recommends strict configuration/
<br>   programmability control as well as montoring the SID advertised and
<br>   log/error messages by the operator to avoid or at least significantl=
y
<br>   minimize the possibility of such risk.
<br>
<br>I couldn&#39;t find anything in my email history that helped jog my mem=
ory.
<br>
<br>Thanks,
<br>
<br>Benjamin
<br>
<br>On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 02:10:37PM -0700, Ahmed Bashandy wrote:
<br>&gt; Hi,
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; I just posted version 14
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routi=
ng-ldp-interop-14.txt">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-spring-segment-ro=
uting-ldp-interop-14.txt</a>
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Thanks
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Ahmed
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; On 7/10/18 7:11 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt; Hi Bruno,
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; Thanks for the additional clarifications in the suggested tex=
t -- it looks
<br>&gt; &gt; good to me, so you and Ahmed should please go ahead with it (=
once
<br>&gt; &gt; submissions open up again).
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; -Benjamin
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 12:49:28PM +0000, <a href=3D"mailto:b=
runo.decraene@orange.com">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a> wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Benjamin,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks for the discussion.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Please see inline [Bruno2]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@=
mit.edu">kaduk@mit.edu</a>]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:53 AM
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 12:36:20PM +0000, <a href=
=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a> wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Hi Benjamin,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Thanks for your comments.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Please see inline another addition to Ahmed&#=
39;s answer. [Bruno]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Ahmed Bashandy [mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:abashandy.ietf@gmail.com">abashandy.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 2:30 AM
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; Hi
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; Thanks for the review
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; See reply to the comment at #Ahmed
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; Ahmed
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; On 6/20/18 9:40 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrot=
e:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Benjamin Kaduk has entered the fol=
lowing ballot position for
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-=
ldp-interop-13: Discuss
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; When responding, please keep the s=
ubject line intact and reply to all
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; email addresses included in the To=
 and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; introductory paragraph, however.)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https:/=
/www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">https://www.ietf.org/ie=
sg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a>
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; for more information about IESG DI=
SCUSS and COMMENT positions.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; The document, along with other bal=
lot positions, can be found here:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop/">https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop/</a>
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; ----------------------------------=
------------------------------------
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; DISCUSS:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; ----------------------------------=
------------------------------------
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; I may be missing something, but I =
don&#39;t see anything that says whether the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; preference field introduced in Sec=
tion 3.2.3 uses larger values or smaller
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; values for more-preferred SRMSes.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; If I understand this statement correctl=
y, the concern is about which
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; label(s) get assigned to which prefix(e=
s). This concern is addressed as
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; follows
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  From the MPLS architecture point of vi=
ew, there is nothing wrong in
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; having multiple labels for the same pre=
fix. Segment routing in general
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; and this document in particular did not=
 introduce this behavior nor did
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; they prohibit/restrict/relax it. For ex=
ample, an implementation that
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; allows the operator to locally assign m=
ultiple local labels to the same
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; prefix may continue to apply this behav=
ior whether the platform supports
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; segment routing or not, in which case i=
t is up to the implementation
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; and/or the configuration affecting the =
MPLS forwarding plane to specify
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; how to behave when multiple labels are =
assigned to the same prefix. Such
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; behavior is a general MPLS behavior tha=
t outside the scope of and is not
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; modified by segment routing.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; However the opposite, where the same la=
bel gets assigned to multiple
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; prefixes resulting in label collision i=
s problematic. This document
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; prohibits label collision resulting fro=
m the use of SRMS (which is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; introduced by this document) in the fir=
st bullet starting at the 3rd
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; line of page 12:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0 &quot;-=C2=A0 If there is an in=
coming label collision as specified in
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ie=
tf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] , apply the steps specified
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in [I-D=
.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] to resolve the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 collisi=
on.&quot;&quot;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; The introduction of the SRMS is al=
so introducing a new way for a protocol
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; participant to make claims about r=
oute prefixes directed at &quot;third parties&quot;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; (non-MS, non-MC routers).  While r=
outing protocols in general do require high
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; levels of trust in all participant=
s in order for proper routing to occur, this
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; addition seems to create a &quot;f=
irst among equals&quot; situation that could be called
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; out more clearly in the security c=
onsiderations.  (I do appreciate that the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; requirement for preferring SIDs ad=
vertised in prefix reachability
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; advertisements over those advertis=
ed in mapping server advertisements does help
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; alleviate some of the risk.)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; [Bruno]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; 1) As the SID attached to the prefix reachabi=
lity is more preferred than the SID advertised by the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; SRMS, I would kind of argue that the SRMS is more =
&quot;last among equals&quot; :-)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; 2) I agree that routing protocols, especially=
 Link State Internal Routing Protocols, do require high
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; levels of trusts among participants. In particular=
, please note that any node can already advertise
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; any IP prefix (with any attached SID), and with an=
y metric/cost, hence attracting the traffic. In this
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; regards, I don&#39;t really see an increased risk =
in IGP routing.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; I don&#39;t really see an increased risk per se, e=
ither (since all routers can
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; break routing in all sorts of ways), but I do see =
a new mechanism by which
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; certain routers can cause routing breakage.  So I =
was thinking &quot;first among
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; equals&quot; in terms of &quot;more ways to break =
things&quot;, not &quot;can break things with
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; a larger magnitude of breakage&quot;.  You are rig=
ht that the preference order
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; that Ahmed described does mean that this new &quot=
;mechanism for breakage&quot; is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; only applicable when there are no explicit prefix-=
SID advertisements
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; received via the IGP.  So in that sense this new m=
echanism for breakage is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &quot;last among equals&quot;, as you say, because=
 it can only take effect if the IGP
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; leaves room for it.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   =20
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; [Bruno2] Ack; I believe we are in sync.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   =20
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; 3) I agree that SRMS allows for a &quot;centr=
alized&quot; SID advertisement. I personally don&#39;t feel that this
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; is more risky than a &quot;centralized&quot; BGP R=
oute Reflector. However, I&#39;m not against raising this in the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; security consideration section.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Please see below a proposed text. Please comm=
ent/propose text as required.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; OLD:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  This document introduces another form of lab=
el binding
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    advertisements.  The security associated w=
ith these advertisement is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    part of the security applied to routing pr=
otocols such as IS-IS
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    [RFC5304] and OSPF [RFC5709] which both op=
tionally make use of
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    cryptographic authentication mechanisms.  =
This document also
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    specifies a mechanism by which the ill eff=
ects of advertising
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    conflicting label bindings can be mitigate=
d.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; NEW:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    This document introduces another form of l=
abel binding
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    advertisements. The security associated wi=
th these advertisements is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    part of the security applied to routing pr=
otocols such as IS-IS
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    [RFC5304] and OSPF [RFC5709] which both op=
tionally make use of
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    cryptographic authentication mechanisms.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    This form of advertisement is more central=
ized, on behalf of the node advertising the IP
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; reachability.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    This document also
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    specifies a mechanism by which the ill eff=
ects of advertising
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;    conflicting label bindings can be mitigate=
d. In particular, advertisements from the node
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; advertsising the IP reachability is more preferenc=
e than the centralized one.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; I think that&#39;s enough to resolve my DISCUSS po=
int.  I would prefer if there
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; was a little bit more text, such as &quot;more cen=
tralized, on behalf of the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; node advertising the IP reachability, which presen=
ts a different risk
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; profile than existing mechanisms for distributing =
label bindings&quot;, but your
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; version does cover the key point.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; [Bruno2] ok. Proposed NEW2:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This document introduces another form of label binding
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; advertisements. The security associated with these advert=
isements is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; part of the security applied to routing protocols such as=
 IS-IS
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; [RFC5304] and OSPF [RFC5709] which both optionally make u=
se of
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; cryptographic authentication mechanisms.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This form of advertisement is more centralized, on behalf=
 of the node advertising the IP reachability, which presents a different ri=
sk profile.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This document also
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; specifies a mechanism by which the ill effects of adverti=
sing
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; conflicting label bindings can be mitigated. In particula=
r, advertisements from the node advertising the IP reachability is more pre=
ferred than the centralized one.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; In short, I used your proposed text but removed &quot; th=
an existing mechanisms for distributing label bindings&quot; as this could =
be read as &quot;LDP&quot;. We could add more text to distinguish, but IMO =
the current text seems fine.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt;  (And to be clear, I am not trying to say
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; that the centralized risk is better or worse in al=
l cases; it&#39;s just
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; different, so we should call that out to the reade=
r and inform their decision
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; making.)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; [Bruno2] In sync. I agree with you that we should call th=
at out to the reader and inform their decision making. Thanks for bringing =
the comment.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;ll work with Ahmed, to have the draft reflect this,=
 as he has the pen.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Bruno
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   =20
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; Thanks,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; Benjamin
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Thanks,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; --Bruno
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; If I understand your comment, the conce=
rn is about
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &quot;first-come-first-serve&quot; beha=
vior. I believe this concern is addressed
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; as follows
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; (1) The sentence starting at the fourth=
 line of the second paragraph in
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; page 10 says:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 For a given prefix, if an=
 MC receives an SR mapping advertisement
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 from a mapping server and=
 also has received a prefix-SID
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 advertisement for that sa=
me prefix in a prefix reachability
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 advertisement, then the M=
C MUST prefer the SID advertised in the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 prefix reachability adver=
tisement over the mapping server
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 advertisement i.e., the m=
apping server advertisment MUST be ignored
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 for that prefix.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; (2) The last bullet at the bottom of pa=
ge 11 says:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 For any prefix fo=
r which it did not receive a prefix-SID
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 adverti=
sement, the MCC applies the SRMS mapping advertisments with
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the hig=
hest preference.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; (3) The first bullet near the top pf pa=
ge 12 says:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 If there is an in=
coming label collision as specified in
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ie=
tf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] , apply the steps specified
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in [I-D=
.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] to resolve the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 collisi=
on.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; So for the same set of received adverti=
sements (SRMS advertisements,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; prefix-SID advertisements, or combinati=
on of both), the same set of
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; labels will be assigned to the same pre=
fix. As mentioned in my previous
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; comments, if multiple labels get assign=
ed to the same prefix, the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; behavior is not related to segment rout=
ing
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; Regarding placing a comment in the secu=
rity section, IMO a specification
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; of which advertisement(s) to use when r=
eceiving multiple (conflicting or
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; non-conflicting) advertisements has not=
hing to do with security. It is
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; an externally visible protocol(s) behav=
ior that should be specified in
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; the sections covering the protocol(s) t=
hemselves rather than security
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; consideration of the protocol(s).
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; But if you still think there is a need =
to mention something in the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; security section, a suggestion from you=
r side will be greatly appreciated .
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; ----------------------------------=
------------------------------------
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; COMMENT:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; ----------------------------------=
------------------------------------
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; I support Alissa&#39;s suggestion =
about the text covering cryptographic authentication.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: I modified the statement as Ali=
ssa suggested in version 14 that
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; will be published in the next 1-2 days
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; &quot;[100,300]&quot; and &quot;(1=
00,200)&quot; are each used as an example SRGB.  In
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; some contexts the round versus squ=
are brackets indicate a
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; distinction between &quot;closed&q=
uot; (includes endpoints) and &quot;open&quot; (does
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; not include endpoints) intervals. =
 If there&#39;s no need to make such a
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; distinction, I suggest standardizi=
ng one one format.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: I changed both of them to use [=
] in version because we mean
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; inclusive
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; As was mentioned in the secdir rev=
iew, it would be good to expand FEC and LFA on first
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; usage.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: Corrected in version 14 that wi=
ll be published in the next 1-2 days
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Section 1
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     Section 2 describes the co-exi=
stence of SR with other MPLS Control
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     Plane. [...]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; nit: &quot;other MPLS Control Plan=
e&quot; seems to be an incomplete compound noun
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; -- is it other control plane techn=
ologies that are being considered?
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: I added &quot;protocols&quot; i=
n version 14 to clarify that
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Section 2
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     Note that this static label al=
location capability of the label
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     manager exists for many years =
across several vendors and hence is not
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     new.  Furthermore, note that t=
he label-manager ability to statically
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     allocate a range of labels to =
a specific application is not new
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     either. [...]
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; nits: &quot;has existed&quot;, &qu=
ot;label-manager&#39;s ability&quot;.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: Corrected (thanks a lot)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Section 2.1
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     MPLS2MPLS refers the forwardin=
g behavior where a router receives an
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     labeled packet and switches it=
 out as a labeled packet.  Several
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; nit: &quot;refers to&quot;, &quot;=
a labeled packet&quot;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: Corrected
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Section 3.2
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     This section defines the Segme=
nt Routing Mapping Server (SRMS).  The
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     SRMS is a IGP node advertising=
 mapping between Segment Identifiers
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     (SID) and prefixes advertised =
by other IGP nodes.  The SRMS uses a
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     dedicated IGP extension (IS-IS=
, OSPF and OSPFv3) which is protocol
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     specific and defined in [I-D.i=
etf-isis-segment-routing-extensions],
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     [I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing=
-extensions], and
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     [I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-=
routing-extensions].
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; nit: Perhaps &quot;IS-IS, OSPFv2, =
and OSPFv3 are currently supported&quot; is a
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; better parenthetical?
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: Corrected in the next version
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     The example diagram depicted i=
n Figure 3 assumes that the operator
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     configures P5 to act as a Segm=
ent Routing Mapping Server (SRMS) and
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     advertises the following mappi=
ngs: (P7, 107), (P8, 108), (PE3, 103)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     and (PE4, 104).
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; nit: I think this is Figure 2.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: Corrected in the next version
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Section 3.2.1
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     [...] Examples
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     of explicit prefix-SID adverti=
sment are the prefix-SID sub-TLVs
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     defined in ([I-D.ietf-isis-seg=
ment-routing-extensions],
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     [I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing=
-extensions], and
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     [I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-=
routing-extensions]).
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Would draft-ietf-idr-bgp-prefix-si=
d (also on this week&#39;s telechat)
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; be appropriate for inclusion in th=
is list?
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     for that prefix.  Hence assign=
ing a prefix-SID to a prefix using the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     SRMS functionality does not pr=
eclude assigning the same or different
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     prefix-SID(s) to the same pref=
ix using explict prefix-SID
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;     advertisement such as the afor=
ementioned prefix-SID sub-TLV.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: The SRMS functionality is speci=
fic to IGPs as mentioned in the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; second sentence of the second paragraph=
 in Section 3.2
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; nit: I think the aforementioned th=
ings were a list, so &quot;sub-TLVs&quot; plural
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; would be appropriate.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; Including the name for IS-IS TLV 1=
35 might be helpful for the
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt; reader.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;  &gt; #Ahmed: Corrected as suggested in the n=
ext version
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; __________________________________________________=
______________________________
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; _________________________________________
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
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<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; privilegiees et ne doivent donc
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans a=
utorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; erreur, veuillez le signaler
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que l=
es pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; susceptibles d&#39;alteration,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce mes=
sage a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; This message and its attachments may contain =
confidential or privileged information that may be
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; protected by law;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; they should not be distributed, used or copie=
d without authorisation.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; If you have received this email in error, ple=
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<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt; Thank you.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;   &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; _________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________________________
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des inf=
ormations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation.=
 Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jo=
intes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete a=
ltere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential=
 or privileged information that may be protected by law;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; they should not be distributed, used or copied without au=
thorisation.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; If you have received this email in error, please notify t=
he sender and delete this message and its attachments.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messag=
es that have been modified, changed or falsified.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thank you.
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; =20
<br></div></div></span></blockquote> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1535558868380609=
024" class=3D"bloop_sign"></div></body></html>

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