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From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:01:11 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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  *   One of the principles of natural justice is that one cannot be judge
and party in a case. In the matter under discussion, Mr Decraene is
the Working Group Chair taking the decision(s) on
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and listed as a
Contributor of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. Based on
that, I unfortunately have to disagree with your assessment on
whether there would be a potential conflict of interest.

While some on this list have made references to Bruno's integrity - let me =
start by saying - I make no comment on anyone's integrity - because I don't=
 know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment on that, and because I find an in=
dividual's integrity in a discussion about if a potential conflict exists t=
o be irrelevant. When people recuse for conflict in any normal environment,=
 it is not because they will act on the conflict necessarily, it is because=
 of perception, because it can taint the issue under discussion, and it lea=
ves the process open to both attack and appeal.

Now, with that said - I completely fail to understand how there can be a cl=
aim that there is no potential conflict here.  Let us look at the facts -

Not only is Mr. Decraene a contributor to this document - but - he is also =
a direct co-author on multiple open drafts that have normative references t=
o the document in question - and which will be held up should this document=
 not proceed.  Indeed one of those drafts goes as far as to say:

   The network programming paradigm
   [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-ietf-idr-bgpls-srv6-ext-02#ref-I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
>] is central to SRv6.  It
   describes how different behaviors can be bound to SIDs and how a
   network program can be expressed as a combination of SIDs.

On the basis of what is in the following drafts and how it relates to this =
last call - I fail to see how ANYONE could claim there is no potential conf=
lict with this document having been taken through LC and last call closure =
by Mr Decraene.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming-01
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-02
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-spring-srv6-vlsid-02
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-srv6-ext-02
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dawra-idr-bgp-ls-sr-service-segments-03


Thanks

Andrew


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<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">One of the principles of natural justice is that one cannot be judge
<br>
and party in a case. In the matter under discussion, Mr Decraene is <br>
the Working Group Chair taking the decision(s) on <br>
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and listed as a <br>
Contributor of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. Based on <br>
that, I unfortunately have to disagree with your assessment on <br>
whether there would be a potential conflict of interest.<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">While some on this list have ma=
de references to Bruno&#8217;s integrity &#8211; let me start by saying &#8=
211; I make no comment on anyone&#8217;s integrity &#8211; because I don&#8=
217;t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment on that, and because I find
 an individual&#8217;s integrity in a discussion about if a potential confl=
ict exists to be irrelevant. When people recuse for conflict in any normal =
environment, it is not because they will act on the conflict necessarily, i=
t is because of perception, because it
 can taint the issue under discussion, and it leaves the process open to bo=
th attack and appeal.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now, with that said &#8211; I c=
ompletely fail to understand how there can be a claim that there is no pote=
ntial conflict here.&nbsp; Let us look at the facts &#8211;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Not only is Mr. Decraene a cont=
ributor to this document &#8211; but &#8211; he is also a direct co-author =
on multiple open drafts that have normative references to the document in q=
uestion &#8211; and which will be held up should this
 document not proceed.&nbsp; Indeed one of those drafts goes as far as to s=
ay:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; The network programming paradigm<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-srv6-ext-02#ref-I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-pr=
ogramming" title=3D"&quot;SRv6 Network Programming&quot;">I-D.ietf-spring-s=
rv6-network-programming</a>]
 is central to SRv6.&nbsp; It<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; describes how different behaviors=
 can be bound to SIDs and how a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; network program can be expressed =
as a combination of SIDs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On the basis of what is in the =
following drafts and how it relates to this last call &#8211; I fail to see=
 how ANYONE could claim there is no potential conflict with this document h=
aving been taken through LC and last call
 closure by Mr Decraene.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sp=
ring-sr-service-programming-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spri=
ng-sr-service-programming-01</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-be=
ss-srv6-services-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-servi=
ces-02</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ls=
r-isis-srv6-extensions-05">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-=
srv6-extensions-05</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraen=
e-spring-srv6-vlsid-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-spring-s=
rv6-vlsid-02</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-id=
r-bgpls-srv6-ext-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-srv6-=
ext-02</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dawra-i=
dr-bgp-ls-sr-service-segments-03">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dawra-i=
dr-bgp-ls-sr-service-segments-03</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 13:51:52 +0100
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> a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal
benefit

Just so we are clear here ... what are those personal benefits ?

Does anyone think that by writing IETF drafts and progressing them anyone
here gets paid or perhaps get's some sort of recognition or maybe a medal ?

If so great for you - but based on my own experience in IETF involvement
this was/is never the case. A lot of people just work in IETF based on
their personal beliefs and do commit personal free time for such work. That
is so true especially for non vendor participants. And that is a fact for
Bruno too.

Now go fire all chairs who co-authored or contributed a draft in their
respective WG as clearly they may have influence on the process itself
either directly or indirectly (via other chair or AD).

Kind regards,
R.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>&gt; a situation in which =
a person is in a position to derive personal benefit=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>Just so we are clear here ... what are those per=
sonal benefits ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Does anyone think that by w=
riting IETF drafts and progressing them anyone here gets paid or perhaps ge=
t&#39;s some=C2=A0sort of recognition or maybe a medal ?</div><div><br></di=
v><div>If so great for you - but based on my own experience in IETF involve=
ment this was/is never the case. A lot of people just work in IETF based on=
 their personal beliefs=C2=A0and do commit personal free time for such work=
. That is so true especially for non vendor participants. And that is a fac=
t for Bruno too.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Now go fire all chairs who =
co-authored or contributed a draft in their respective WG as clearly they m=
ay have influence on the process itself either directly or indirectly (via =
other chair or AD).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>=
R.</div></div>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Nope.

Node can advertise two SIDs or PSP in a given network may be a well know
function (to limit IGP burden) Example: odd SID includes PSP and even SID
does not.

O*A*M  packets can use on the exact same path but the penultimate hop
traversal is directed by even SID and is not subject to PSP.

Done.

Thx,
R.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 5:50 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

> Presuming that by "OEM" you mean "OAM", then no, this does not work.
> If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose
> flavor is PSP, then something will break.  The monitoring will monitor
> something else, or it won't monitor the last hop, or...
>
> Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or
> otherwise) with segments-left = 0 is a mandatory behavior of 8200, I am
> really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion of PSP.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
>

--0000000000006a20db059fcac192
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Nope.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Node can adverti=
se two SIDs or PSP in a given network may be a well know function (to limit=
 IGP burden) Example: odd SID includes PSP and even SID does not.</div><div=
><br></div><div>O*A*M=C2=A0 packets can use on the exact same path but the =
penultimate hop traversal is directed by even SID and is not subject to PSP=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Done.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,<=
br>R.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 5:50 AM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
mh@joelhalpern.com">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Presuming that by &quot;OEM&quot; yo=
u mean &quot;OAM&quot;, then no, this does not work.<br>
If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose <br>
flavor is PSP, then something will break.=C2=A0 The monitoring will monitor=
 <br>
something else, or it won&#39;t monitor the last hop, or...<br>
<br>
Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or <br>
otherwise) with segments-left =3D 0 is a mandatory behavior of 8200, I am <=
br>
really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion of PSP.<br=
>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000006a20db059fcac192--


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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <CAJE_bqcTNWt==mtYKeNVXOBAzBNLG=+_mXQQ9xMHYOCDRqCb_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAOj+MMEzbyzy98iFyfe6Z=dQiWHo=triX6bHKx9fNEUCaSuy3Q@mail.gmail.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> <CAOj+MMGzjP4C4CXi+6i+o_TMO5Un8HdGF+MMGLVa-KPUH+pXZw@mail.gmail.com> <3c07fa08-cd93-d0ae-fc76-ac8c8ae5baa7@gmail.com> <CA+RyBmX0EQydgvgUoPJB+6z6hcAiesVr43MnK_HNua0v8BieVA@mail.gmail.com> <CAOj+MMHBdU=urwhJV6QTn8RZZKZ0kyefHF9TDRbv5cH5CAQ5qg@mail.gmail.com> <c2a0cef9-51b1-ca76-99ad-718a37b06d4f@joelhalpern.com> <CAOj+MMHZ7sVE+pHOEhDPZvP0u-01cD0oTHEo5x=J=PEVj0iTYA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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While the node is "asserting" that the two are the same, if you use 
different SIDs for OAM compared with data traffic then you are not 
actually checking the same forwarding path.  You are not using the same 
FIB entries.  Sure, if everything works right they are the same.  But 
the whole point of OAM is for when not everything is working right.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/1/2020 8:07 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Nope.
> 
> Node can advertise two SIDs or PSP in a given network may be a well know 
> function (to limit IGP burden) Example: odd SID includes PSP and even 
> SID does not.
> 
> O*A*M  packets can use on the exact same path but the penultimate hop 
> traversal is directed by even SID and is not subject to PSP.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Thx,
> R.
> 
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 5:50 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Presuming that by "OEM" you mean "OAM", then no, this does not work.
>     If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose
>     flavor is PSP, then something will break.  The monitoring will monitor
>     something else, or it won't monitor the last hop, or...
> 
>     Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or
>     otherwise) with segments-left = 0 is a mandatory behavior of 8200, I am
>     really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion of PSP.
> 
>     Yours,
>     Joel
> 


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 14:32:18 +0100
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Robert,
yes, the path probably will be the same regardless whether PSP was
applied or not. But performance metrics, e.g. packet delay, may be
different for OAM and "regular" packets.

Regards,
Greg

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 14:08 Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Nope.
>
> Node can advertise two SIDs or PSP in a given network may be a well know
> function (to limit IGP burden) Example: odd SID includes PSP and even SID
> does not.
>
> O*A*M  packets can use on the exact same path but the penultimate hop
> traversal is directed by even SID and is not subject to PSP..
>
> Done.
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 5:50 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Presuming that by "OEM" you mean "OAM", then no, this does not work.
>> If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose
>> flavor is PSP, then something will break.  The monitoring will monitor
>> something else, or it won't monitor the last hop, or...
>>
>> Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or
>> otherwise) with segments-left = 0 is a mandatory behavior of 8200, I am
>> really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion of PSP.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Robert,<div dir=3D"auto">yes, the path probably will b=
e the same regardless whether PSP was applied=C2=A0or not. But performance =
metrics, e.g. packet delay, may be different for OAM and &quot;regular&quot=
; packets.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 14:08 Robert Rasz=
uk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Nope.=C2=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>Node can advertise two SIDs or PSP in a given net=
work may be a well know function (to limit IGP burden) Example: odd SID inc=
ludes PSP and even SID does not.</div><div><br></div><div>O*A*M=C2=A0 packe=
ts can use on the exact same path but the penultimate hop traversal is dire=
cted by even SID and is not subject to PSP..=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>Done.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,<br>R.</div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 5:50=
 AM Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Presuming that by &quot;OEM&quo=
t; you mean &quot;OAM&quot;, then no, this does not work.<br>
If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose <br>
flavor is PSP, then something will break.=C2=A0 The monitoring will monitor=
 <br>
something else, or it won&#39;t monitor the last hop, or...<br>
<br>
Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or <br>
otherwise) with segments-left =3D 0 is a mandatory behavior of 8200, I am <=
br>
really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion of PSP.<br=
>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
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Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
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</blockquote></div>

--0000000000002b6ff5059fcb1a3e--


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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 13:57:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Zafar, I seem to have missed something.  I understand how the SRv6 OAM 
works with a SID that happens to be a PSP SID, up until we get to the 
step from the penultimate hop to the ultimate hop.  At the penultiamte 
hop, everything works.  But before getting to the ultimate hop, the SRH 
is stripped.  Therefore, at the ultimate hop no OAM can take place for 
the path with PSP.
If you define the O bit to over-ride the PSP processing, that in and of 
itself means that the packets on that final leg are different, again 
modifying the intended behavior of OAM.

I will be happy if you can explain how you found a way out of this 
conundrum.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/1/2020 8:57 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote:
> Greg, Joel,
> 
> _All_ the existing IPv6 OAM tools (e.g., ICMP, traceroute, TWAMP, BFD, 
> etc.) works “as-is” for the PSP SID.
> 
> They shall exercise the FIB entry for the PSP SIDs, follow the same path 
> as PSP SIDs, etc.
> 
> We can add clarification in the OAM draft.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Regards … Zafar
> 
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky 
> <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 8:32 AM
> *To: *Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc: *"6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel 
> M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, 神明達哉<jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC 
> and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> Hi Robert,
> 
> yes, the path probably will be the same regardless whether PSP was 
> applied or not. But performance metrics, e.g. packet delay, may be 
> different for OAM and "regular" packets.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Greg
> 
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 14:08 Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net 
> <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Nope.
> 
>     Node can advertise two SIDs or PSP in a given network may be a well
>     know function (to limit IGP burden) Example: odd SID includes PSP
>     and even SID does not.
> 
>     O*A*M  packets can use on the exact same path but the penultimate
>     hop traversal is directed by even SID and is not subject to PSP..
> 
>     Done.
> 
>     Thx,
>     R.
> 
>     On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 5:50 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
>     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
> 
>         Presuming that by "OEM" you mean "OAM", then no, this does not work.
>         If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose
>         flavor is PSP, then something will break.  The monitoring will
>         monitor
>         something else, or it won't monitor the last hop, or...
> 
>         Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or
>         otherwise) with segments-left = 0 is a mandatory behavior of
>         8200, I am
>         really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion
>         of PSP.
> 
>         Yours,
>         Joel
> 
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
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Subject: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed
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Dear Zafar, Dear draft authors,

I reviewed draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 and tested it in Swiss=
com's lab. Planning to deploy it in the production network in the coming mo=
nths.

The draft is very straight forward and easy to read. I have only one small =
comment regarding section 7, IANA Considerations.

In IPFIX entity type 46 at IANA, the top label type (label source) is defin=
ed. In the following section the possible values are described:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipfix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type

For Segment Routing an additional value needs to be defined and your draft =
seems to be the right place to cover that.

Hope that makes sense.

Best Wishes
Thomas Graf
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Network Engineer
Datacenter Functions
Telefon +41-58-223 84 01
Mobile   +41-79-728 80 12
thomas.graf@swisscom.com<mailto:thomas.graf@swisscom.com>
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Swisscom (Schweiz) AG
IT, Network & Infrastructure
Datacenter Functions
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich
www.swisscom.com
Postadresse:
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Dear Zafar, Dear draft authors,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">I reviewed draft-ali-spring-sr-=
traffic-accounting-04 and tested it in Swisscom's lab. Planning to deploy i=
t in the production network in the coming months.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">The draft is very straight forw=
ard and easy to read. I have only one small comment regarding section 7, IA=
NA Considerations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">In IPFIX entity type 46 at IANA=
, the top label type (label source) is defined. In the following section th=
e possible values are described:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/ip=
fix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type"><span lang=3D"EN-US">https://www.ian=
a.org/assignments/ipfix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type</span></a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">For Segment Routing an addition=
al value needs to be defined and your draft seems to be the right place to =
cover that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Hope that makes sense.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Best Wishes<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:=
DE-CH">Thomas Graf<br>
<sup>______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
</sup>Network Engineer<br>
Datacenter Functions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Telefon =
&#43;41-58-223 84 01<br>
Mobile&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;41-79-728 80 12<br>
</span><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href=3D"mailto:tho=
mas.graf@swisscom.com"><span style=3D"color:blue">thomas.graf@swisscom.com<=
/span></a><br>
</span></u><sup><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet=
 MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">_______________=
_____________________________________________________________<br>
</span></sup><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS=
&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Swisscom (Schweiz)=
 AG<br>
IT, Network &amp; Infrastructure<br>
Datacenter Functions<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com" <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>, "draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org" <draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 14:43:42 +0000
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:29:02 +0100
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: [spring] SRv6 OAM
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Hi Zafar,

I think I am also missing something here. Let me ask few questions

Q1 -  I am talking describing the case of in-situ Node A to Node B
unidirection telemetry stream where assume nodes A & B are within given
administrative domain. How would B know that SRH was removed somewhere in
the middle ? Note - node A is never part of any reception of the probe
packets.

Q2 - Basic ping - Let's assume that src A is a host outside of SP and that
it wants to run ping or traceroute through the domain or even further. As
ingress node encapsulates the packets (hopefully this will be configured
such ICMP gets the same encap as TCP or UDP) how nodes within SR path till
the very end of the path will be able to send responses back A ?

Do you count on ingress node (encapsulation src address) doing the proxy
NAT function in the slow path ? Or is the assumption here that SRv6 does
not propagate TTL and what happens within the domain is invisible for the
external party ?

Thx,
R.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 3:34 PM Zafar Ali (zali) <zali=3D
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hi Joel,
>
>
>
> _All_ the existing IPv6 OAM tools will send OAM probes encoding the
> =E2=80=9Cactual PSP SID=E2=80=9D in the packet (just mimicking data packe=
ts).
>
> The penultimate node does not and cannot differentiate between the data
> packets and OAM probes and executes the exact same PSP SID.
>
> None of the existing IPv6 OAM tools has any dependency on the SRH
> presence.
>
> Like I mention, we can add clarification in the OAM draft.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
> *From: *"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:09 AM
> *To: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *"6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC
> and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Zafar, I seem to have missed something.  I understand how the SRv6 OAM
>
> works with a SID that happens to be a PSP SID, up until we get to the
>
> step from the penultimate hop to the ultimate hop.  At the penultiamte
>
> hop, everything works.  But before getting to the ultimate hop, the SRH
>
> is stripped.  Therefore, at the ultimate hop no OAM can take place for
>
> the path with PSP.
>
> If you define the O bit to over-ride the PSP processing, that in and of
>
> itself means that the packets on that final leg are different, again
>
> modifying the intended behavior of OAM.
>
>
>
> I will be happy if you can explain how you found a way out of this
>
> conundrum.
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Joel
>

--0000000000007b31d2059fccbb99
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Zafar,</div><div><br></div><div>I think I am also =
missing something here. Let me ask few questions=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br></div><div>Q1 -=C2=A0 I am talking describing the case of in-situ Nod=
e A to Node B unidirection=C2=A0telemetry stream where assume nodes A &amp;=
 B are within given administrative domain. How would B know that SRH was re=
moved somewhere in the middle ? Note - node A is never part of any receptio=
n of the probe packets.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Q2 - Basic ping - Le=
t&#39;s assume that src A is a host outside of SP and that it wants to run =
ping or traceroute through the domain or even further. As ingress node enca=
psulates the packets (hopefully this will be configured such ICMP gets the=
=C2=A0same encap as TCP or UDP) how nodes within SR path till the very end =
of the path will be able to send responses back A ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Do you count on ingress node (encapsulation src address) doing the=
=C2=A0proxy NAT function in the slow path ? Or is the assumption here that =
SRv6 does not propagate TTL and what happens within the domain is invisible=
 for the external party ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,<br></div><div=
>R.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 3:34 PM Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali=3D<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_9164031271477753926WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Joel, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_All_ the existing IPv6 OAM tools will send OAM prob=
es encoding the =E2=80=9Cactual PSP SID=E2=80=9D in the packet (just mimick=
ing data packets).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The penultimate node does not and cannot differentia=
te between the data packets and OAM probes and executes the exact same PSP =
SID.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of the existing IPv6 OAM tools has any dependen=
cy on the SRH presence.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Like I mention, we can add clarification in the OAM =
draft. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">&quot;Joel M. Halpern=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joe=
lhalpern.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:09 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ie=
tf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6ma=
n@ietf.org</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the L=
C and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Zafar, I seem to have missed something.=C2=A0=C2=A0I=
 understand how the SRv6 OAM
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">works with a SID that happens to be a PSP SID, up un=
til we get to the
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">step from the penultimate hop to the ultimate hop.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0At the penultiamte
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">hop, everything works.=C2=A0=C2=A0But before getting=
 to the ultimate hop, the SRH
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is stripped.=C2=A0=C2=A0Therefore, at the ultimate h=
op no OAM can take place for
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the path with PSP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you define the O bit to over-ride the PSP process=
ing, that in and of
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">itself means that the packets on that final leg are =
different, again
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">modifying the intended behavior of OAM.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I will be happy if you can explain how you found a w=
ay out of this
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">conundrum.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yours,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Joel</p></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000007b31d2059fccbb99--


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Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed
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Hi Zafar,

Correct. For instance next free value 6 for SID at IPFIX entity 46.

We have seen vendor implementation marking 5 even though the label value is=
 a SID, not coming from LDP. This due to the fact that there is no value as=
signed for SID yet.

Best Wishes
Thomas Graf
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Network Engineer
Datacenter Functions
Telefon +41-58-223 84 01
Mobile   +41-79-728 80 12
thomas.graf@swisscom.com<mailto:thomas.graf@swisscom.com>
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Swisscom (Schweiz) AG
IT, Network & Infrastructure
Datacenter Functions
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich
www.swisscom.com
Postadresse:
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich


From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 3:44 PM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>; draft-ali-spring-s=
r-traffic-accounting@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed

Hi Thomas

Did you mean there is a need for IPFIX MPLS label type entry for Binding SI=
D?
Can you please elaborate?

Thanks

Regards ... Zafar

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com<mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>" <Thoma=
s.Graf@swisscom.com<mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>>
Date: Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:31 AM
To: "draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ali-sprin=
g-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>" <draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@=
ietf.org<mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org<mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org>>
Subject: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed

Dear Zafar, Dear draft authors,

I reviewed draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 and tested it in Swiss=
com's lab. Planning to deploy it in the production network in the coming mo=
nths.

The draft is very straight forward and easy to read. I have only one small =
comment regarding section 7, IANA Considerations.

In IPFIX entity type 46 at IANA, the top label type (label source) is defin=
ed. In the following section the possible values are described:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipfix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type<ht=
tps://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iana.=
org%2Fassignments%2Fipfix%2Fipfix.xhtml%23ipfix-mpls-label-type&data=3D02%7=
C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7C77d5d2926dba439191fd08d7bdeefdaf%7C364e5=
b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637186706461423641&sdata=3Dl2ZfUq0PHa=
TGFQCHwfsaFL7jKT0CGorn9QpBo4OKy1A%3D&reserved=3D0>

For Segment Routing an additional value needs to be defined and your draft =
seems to be the right place to cover that.

Hope that makes sense.

Best Wishes
Thomas Graf
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Network Engineer
Datacenter Functions
Telefon +41-58-223 84 01
Mobile   +41-79-728 80 12
thomas.graf@swisscom.com<mailto:thomas.graf@swisscom.com>
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Swisscom (Schweiz) AG
IT, Network & Infrastructure
Datacenter Functions
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich
www.swisscom.com<http://www.swisscom.com/>
Postadresse:
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Za=
far,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">Correct. For instance next free value 6 for SID at IPFIX entity 4=
6.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">We have seen vendor implementation marking 5 even though the labe=
l value is a SID, not coming from LDP. This due
 to the fact that there is no value assigned for SID yet.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">Best Wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Thomas Graf<br>
<sup>______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
</sup>Network Engineer<br>
Datacenter Functions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Telefon &#43;41-58-223 84 01<br>
Mobile&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;41-79-728 80 12<br>
</span><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"mailto:thomas.graf@swisscom.com"><spa=
n style=3D"color:blue">thomas.graf@swisscom.com</span></a><br>
</span></u><sup><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet=
 MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">__________________________________________=
__________________________________<br>
</span></sup><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS=
&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Swisscom (Schweiz) AG<br>
IT, Network &amp; Infrastructure<br>
Datacenter Functions<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"www.swisscom.com"><sp=
an style=3D"color:blue">www.swisscom.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Postadresse:<br>
Binzring 17<br>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 1, 2020 3:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF &lt;Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com&gt;; draft=
-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 revi=
ewed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Thomas <o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Did you mean there is a need fo=
r IPFIX MPLS label type entry for Binding SID?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Can you please elaborate? <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards &#8230; Zafar <o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co=
lor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spri=
ng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com">Thoma=
s.Graf@swisscom.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.co=
m">Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:31 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@i=
etf.org">draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org">draft-ali-sp=
ring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quo=
t; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Dear Zafar, Dear draft authors,=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">I reviewed draft-ali-spring-sr-=
traffic-accounting-04 and tested it in Swisscom's lab. Planning to deploy i=
t in the production network in the coming months.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">The draft is very straight forw=
ard and easy to read. I have only one small comment regarding section 7, IA=
NA Considerations.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">In IPFIX entity type 46 at IANA=
, the top label type (label source) is defined. In the following section th=
e possible values are described:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://eur03.safeli=
nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iana.org%2Fassignments%=
2Fipfix%2Fipfix.xhtml%23ipfix-mpls-label-type&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CThomas.G=
raf%40swisscom.com%7C77d5d2926dba439191fd08d7bdeefdaf%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9be=
ec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637186706461423641&amp;sdata=3Dl2ZfUq0PHaTGFQCHwfsa=
FL7jKT0CGorn9QpBo4OKy1A%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https://www.iana.org/assignmen=
ts/ipfix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">For Segment Routing an addition=
al value needs to be defined and your draft seems to be the right place to =
cover that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Hope that makes sense.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Best Wishes</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Thomas Graf<br>
<sup>______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
</sup>Network Engineer<br>
Datacenter Functions</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Telefon &#43;41-58-2=
23 84 01<br>
Mobile&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;41-79-728 80 12<br>
</span><u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"mailto:thomas.graf@swi=
sscom.com"><span style=3D"color:blue">thomas.graf@swisscom.com</span></a><b=
r>
</span></u><sup><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">___________________________=
_________________________________________________<br>
</span></sup><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Swisscom (Schweiz) AG<br>
IT, Network &amp; Infrastructure<br>
Datacenter Functions<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.swisscom.com/"><span style=3D"color:blue">www.swisscom.com</span></a><=
/span></u><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:gray">Postadresse:<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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------=_Part_4281796_1397142456.1583077745198--


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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:19:44 -0500
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To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Jingrong,


Can you help provide some clarification on the use cases for PSP flavor
with end.X and end.T functions.

Under Ref1 where it mentions end.X and end.T functions to use PSP knob  as
well if desired.

How would that work with any P node using the PSP function?

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-=
07#section-4.21



4.21.1 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-prog=
ramming-07#section-4.21.1>.
PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH

   After the instruction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,
   the following instructions must be added:

 1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 & PSP is TRUE
 2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1


Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When the last SID is written in the
   DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
   first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but
   are not processed as part of the function.


Also trying to understand the reason given for PSP function for legacy
final destination egress PE not being SRv6 capable.

Since every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS would
be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.  I am using
the MPLS term LSP with SR as the concept of FEC destination which now is a
prefix SID still exists that all traffic to egress final destination  PE is
forwarded to.

Since LSPs built to FEC destination are uni directional as they are with
MPLS  and that would be the case as well for SR paths - the idea that the
final destination PE would lack hardware capability for SRH processing does
not make sense as the source and final destination node are one and the
same.

Am I missing something?

Kind Regards

Gyan

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <
xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> Got it.
> Thanks for your clarification of your point.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp]
> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM
> To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <
> pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Bob
> Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
> spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and
> move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the
> > understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case
> > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need t=
o
> change accordingly.
>
> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.  It's a pity that we have to discus=
s
> it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also
> responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone
> who involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended =
to
> say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added to a
> packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers cannot
> be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate
> destination".  It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by a
> small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses witho=
ut
> a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the
> underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.
>
> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't immediatel=
y
> mean it (PSP) "needs to change".  It can update RFC8200 with explaining w=
hy
> it's necessary and justified.  That's what I requested as you summarized:
>
> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why
> it's justified.
>
> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposal
> will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH
> insertion.  On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will
> certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'll
> certainly object to it).  In the end, it can easily take much longer, or
> even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200.
>
> --
> JINMEI, Tatuya
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--0000000000003ac4ee059fd0cbc8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Jingrong,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Can you help provide=
 some clarification on the use cases for PSP flavor with end.X and end.T fu=
nctions.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Under Ref1 wher=
e it mentions end.X and end.T functions to use PSP knob =C2=A0as well if de=
sired.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">How would that wo=
rk with any P node using the PSP function?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spac=
ing:1px"><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-=
size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#=
section-4.21" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-family:-apple-system,Helvetic=
aNeue;font-size:1rem">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv=
6-network-programming-07#section-4.21</a><br></pre></pre></div><div dir=3D"=
auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><pre style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap;font-size:1rem;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:p=
age"><span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h4 style=3D"display:in=
line;font-size:1rem"><a name=3D"m_-8282060039690718609_m_-48476431018413198=
65_section-4.21.1" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-sprin=
g-srv6-network-programming-07#section-4.21.1" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"co=
lor:black;text-decoration:none;font-size:1rem">4.21.1</a>.  PSP: Penultimat=
e Segment Pop of the SRH</h4></span>

   After the instruction &#39;update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]&#39; is execu=
ted,
   the following instructions must be added:

 1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 &amp; PSP is TRUE
 2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1
</pre><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing=
:1px"><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:1rem;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px;break-before:page">Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When t=
he last SID is written in the
   DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
   first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH&#39;s may be present but
   are not processed as part of the function.</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">Also trying to understand th=
e reason given for PSP function for legacy final destination egress PE not =
being SRv6 capable.</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);wor=
d-spacing:1px"><span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"=
auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:1rem">Since every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to M=
PLS would be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.=C2=
=A0 I am using the MPLS term LSP with SR as the concept of FEC destination =
which now is a prefix SID still exists that all traffic to egress final des=
tination =C2=A0PE is forwarded to.=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"auto=
" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
rem"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-s=
pacing:1px"><span style=3D"font-size:1rem">Since LSPs built to FEC destinat=
ion are uni directional as they are with MPLS =C2=A0and that would be the c=
ase as well for SR paths - the idea that the final destination PE would lac=
k hardware capability for SRH processing does not make sense as the source =
and final destination node are one and the same.</span><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">Am I missing somet=
hing?</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"=
>Kind Regards=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);wor=
d-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:1rem;color:rg=
b(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">Gyan</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xie=
jingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejingro=
ng@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Got it=
.<br>
Thanks for your clarification of your point. <br>
<br>
Jingrong<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei=
@wide.ad.jp" target=3D"_blank">jinmei@wide.ad.jp</a>] <br>
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM<br>
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" target=3D"_blank">mel=
lon@fugue.com</a>&gt;; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pca=
maril@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pcamaril@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Brian E Carp=
enter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Bob Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.h=
inden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Ha=
lpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joel=
halpern.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">s=
pring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man=
@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and m=
ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
<br>
At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,<br>
&quot;Xiejingrong (Jingrong)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei=
.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the <br>
&gt; understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case <=
br>
&gt; the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need =
to change accordingly.<br>
<br>
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It&#39;s a pity that we have to=
 discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also r=
esponsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone wh=
o involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended to s=
ay (borrowing from Ron&#39;s text) &quot;Extension headers cannot be added =
to a packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers can=
not be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destinati=
on&quot;.=C2=A0 It might look &quot;an attempt of blocking an innovation by=
 a small group of vocal fundamentalists&quot;, but if you see the responses=
 without a bias, you&#39;d notice that even some of those who seem neutral =
about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn&#39;t imme=
diately mean it (PSP) &quot;needs to change&quot;.=C2=A0 It can update RFC8=
200 with explaining why it&#39;s necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That&#39;s =
what I requested as you summarized:<br>
<br>
&gt; Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why =
it&#39;s justified.<br>
<br>
And, since PSP at least wouldn&#39;t break PMTUD, I guess the update propos=
al will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH i=
nsertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there&#39;s no violation will=
 certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I&#39=
;ll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can easily take much long=
er, or even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200.<br>
<br>
--<br>
JINMEI, Tatuya<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font si=
ze=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=
=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=
=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" =
face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fon=
t size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20=
904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D=
"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.=
com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000003ac4ee059fd0cbc8--


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 12:36:20 -0800
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, ietf@ietf.org
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Cc: spring@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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Hi Andrew,

[Cc to ietf@]

I'll disclose that I am also affiliated with a=20
RIR.  I am copying this message to the=20
Responsible Area Director [1] for the SPRING Working Group.

At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:
>While some on this list have made references to=20
>Bruno=92s integrity =96 let me start by saying =96 I=20
>make no comment on anyone=92s integrity =96 because=20
>I don=92t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment=20
>on that, and because I find an individual=92s=20
>integrity in a discussion about if a potential=20
>conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people=20
>recuse for conflict in any normal environment,=20
>it is not because they will act on the conflict=20
>necessarily, it is because of perception,=20
>because it can taint the issue under discussion,=20
>and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.

My question was about the process and the role=20
with respect to=20
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.  I am=20
not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to=20
comment about his integrity.  It has been pointed=20
out to me that the person is well-known.  I don't=20
see what that has to do with the question which I asked.

There is a message at=20
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8KaFgVIrF2Ymx4GC8/=20
which lists the Responsible Area Director as a=20
Contributor.  In my opinion, the procedural=20
aspects are problematic.  I commented about a=20
somewhat similar topic previously [2].  From what=20
I understand, RFC 2026 is applicable for all=20
documents coming out of the IETF=20
Stream.  According to that RFC, the "procedures=20
are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting=20
generally-accepted practices".  One of the=20
definitions in RFC 7776 is: "A conflict of=20
interest may arise if someone involved in the=20
process of handling a harassment report is in the=20
role of Reporter, Respondent, or=20
Subject.  Furthermore, a conflict of interest=20
arises if the person involved in the process of=20
handling a harassment report is closely=20
associated personally or through affiliation with=20
any of the Reporter, Respondent, or=20
Subject".  The general practice, in such a=20
situation, is recusal.  I'll invite the=20
Responsible Area Director to comment about=20
whether there should be an exception to that practice and the rationale for=
 it.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbiFX3eE/=
=20


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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 21:25:01 +0000
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 00:02:13 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MMH3eyjoQe=SokYQ89HM2po01G1V=kgO+653EKx8eaobzw@mail.gmail.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>,  SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/no3GrTpq8i44KdX5aybHcaXwEpc>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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Exception ? As far as I see it this is rather a norm in multiple WGs across
IETF for chair to co-author or contribute to his area of focus. And there
is absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact it is expected for chair to
read the draft  and comment othen resulting in becoming a contributor or at
least being added to the Ack section.

If this saga continues any further I recommend we start first by obsoleting
RFC8200 too. After all it's main author Bob Hinden was also a 6man chair
who requested publication of 2460bis:

2016-12-02
2016-12-02 17:06:39 -0800
08 Bob Hinden IETF WG state changed to Submitted to IESG for Publication fr=
om
WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up

2016-12-02
08 Bob Hinden IESG state changed to Publication Requested

2016-12-02
08 Bob Hinden IESG process started in state Publication Requested

2016-11-30
08 Bob Hinden Changed document writeup

2016-11-15
08 Bob Hinden New version available: draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:38 PM S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> [Cc to ietf@]
>
> I'll disclose that I am also affiliated with a
> RIR.  I am copying this message to the
> Responsible Area Director [1] for the SPRING Working Group.
>
> At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:
> >While some on this list have made references to
> >Bruno=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 let me start by saying =E2=80=93 I
> >make no comment on anyone=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 because
> >I don=E2=80=99t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment
> >on that, and because I find an individual=E2=80=99s
> >integrity in a discussion about if a potential
> >conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people
> >recuse for conflict in any normal environment,
> >it is not because they will act on the conflict
> >necessarily, it is because of perception,
> >because it can taint the issue under discussion,
> >and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.
>
> My question was about the process and the role
> with respect to
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.  I am
> not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to
> comment about his integrity.  It has been pointed
> out to me that the person is well-known.  I don't
> see what that has to do with the question which I asked.
>
> There is a message at
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8KaFgVIrF2Ymx4GC8/
> which lists the Responsible Area Director as a
> Contributor.  In my opinion, the procedural
> aspects are problematic.  I commented about a
> somewhat similar topic previously [2].  From what
> I understand, RFC 2026 is applicable for all
> documents coming out of the IETF
> Stream.  According to that RFC, the "procedures
> are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting
> generally-accepted practices".  One of the
> definitions in RFC 7776 is: "A conflict of
> interest may arise if someone involved in the
> process of handling a harassment report is in the
> role of Reporter, Respondent, or
> Subject.  Furthermore, a conflict of interest
> arises if the person involved in the process of
> handling a harassment report is closely
> associated personally or through affiliation with
> any of the Reporter, Respondent, or
> Subject".  The general practice, in such a
> situation, is recusal.  I'll invite the
> Responsible Area Director to comment about
> whether there should be an exception to that practice and the rationale
> for it.
>
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>
> 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
> 2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbiFX3eE=
/
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>Exception=C2=A0? As far as I see it this is=
 rather a norm in multiple WGs across IETF for chair to co-author or contri=
bute to his area of focus. And there is absolutely nothing=C2=A0wrong with =
it. In fact it is expected=C2=A0for chair to read the draft=C2=A0 and comme=
nt othen resulting in becoming a contributor=C2=A0or at least being added t=
o the Ack section.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If this saga=C2=A0continues any=
 further I recommend we start first by obsoleting RFC8200 too. After all it=
&#39;s main author Bob Hinden was also a 6man chair who requested publicati=
on of 2460bis:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><table class=3D"gmail-table g=
mail-table-condensed gmail-table-striped gmail-tablesorter gmail-tablesorte=
r-bootstrap gmail-tablesorter29f270172457" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;b=
order-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;width:1382px;max-width:100%;marg=
in-bottom:21px;font-family:&quot;PT Serif&quot;,Palatino,&quot;Neue Swift&q=
uot;,serif;font-size:15px"><tbody style=3D"box-sizing:border-box"><tr class=
=3D"gmail-anchor-target" id=3D"gmail-history-511541" style=3D"box-sizing:bo=
rder-box;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)"><td class=3D"gmail-text-nowrap"=
 style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;white-space:nowrap;line-height:=
1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)"><div titl=
e=3D"" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box">2016-12-02</div><div class=3D"gmail-=
tooltip gmail-fade gmail-top gmail-in" id=3D"gmail-tooltip517973" style=3D"=
box-sizing:border-box;opacity:0.9;font-family:&quot;PT Serif&quot;,Palatino=
,&quot;Neue Swift&quot;,serif;font-size:12.61px;line-height:1.42857;word-br=
eak:normal;word-spacing:normal;white-space:normal;line-break:auto;padding:8=
px 0px"><div class=3D"gmail-tooltip-arrow" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;w=
idth:0px;height:0px;border-color:rgb(255,227,87) transparent transparent;bo=
rder-style:solid;border-width:8px 8px 0px"></div><div class=3D"gmail-toolti=
p-inner" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;max-width:250px;padding:3px 8px;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);text-align:center;background-color:rgb(255,227,87);border-rad=
ius:4px">2016-12-02 17:06:39 -0800</div></div></td><td class=3D"gmail-text-=
center" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;text-align:center;line-h=
eight:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">08<=
/td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.42857;vert=
ical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">Bob Hinden</td><td st=
yle=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align=
:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">IETF WG state changed to=C2=A0<=
span style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;font-weight:700">Submitted to IESG for =
Publication</span>=C2=A0from WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up</td></tr><t=
r class=3D"gmail-anchor-target" id=3D"gmail-history-511540" style=3D"box-si=
zing:border-box"><td class=3D"gmail-text-nowrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border=
-box;padding:3px;white-space:nowrap;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;=
border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)"><div title=3D"" style=3D"box-sizing:=
border-box">2016-12-02</div></td><td class=3D"gmail-text-center" style=3D"b=
ox-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;text-align:center;line-height:1.42857;vert=
ical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">08</td><td style=3D"b=
ox-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;bor=
der-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">Bob Hinden</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:=
border-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1p=
x solid rgb(221,221,221)">IESG state changed to=C2=A0<span style=3D"box-siz=
ing:border-box;font-weight:700">Publication Requested</span></td></tr><tr c=
lass=3D"gmail-anchor-target" id=3D"gmail-history-511539" style=3D"box-sizin=
g:border-box;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)"><td class=3D"gmail-text-now=
rap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;white-space:nowrap;line-hei=
ght:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)"><div =
title=3D"" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box">2016-12-02</div></td><td class=
=3D"gmail-text-center" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;text-alig=
n:center;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(22=
1,221,221)">08</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line-heig=
ht:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">Bob Hi=
nden</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.42857=
;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">IESG process sta=
rted in state=C2=A0<span style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;font-weight:700">Pu=
blication Requested</span></td></tr><tr class=3D"gmail-anchor-target" id=3D=
"gmail-history-508197" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box"><td class=3D"gmail-t=
ext-nowrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;white-space:nowrap;l=
ine-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)=
"><div title=3D"" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box">2016-11-30</div></td><td =
class=3D"gmail-text-center" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;text=
-align:center;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid r=
gb(221,221,221)">08</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line=
-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">B=
ob Hinden</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.=
42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">Changed doc=
ument writeup</td></tr><tr class=3D"gmail-anchor-target" id=3D"gmail-histor=
y-494200" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)"=
><td class=3D"gmail-text-nowrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:3px=
;white-space:nowrap;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px s=
olid rgb(221,221,221)"><div title=3D"" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box">2016=
-11-15</div></td><td class=3D"gmail-text-center" style=3D"box-sizing:border=
-box;padding:3px;text-align:center;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;b=
order-top:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)">08</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border=
-box;padding:3px;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px soli=
d rgb(221,221,221)">Bob Hinden</td><td style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;paddi=
ng:3px;line-height:1.42857;vertical-align:top;border-top:1px solid rgb(221,=
221,221)">New version available:=C2=A0<span style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;=
font-weight:700">draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt<br></span></td></tr></tb=
ody></table></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:38 PM S Moonesamy &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:sm%2Bietf@elandsys.com">sm+ietf@elandsys.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Andrew,<br>
<br>
[Cc to ietf@]<br>
<br>
I&#39;ll disclose that I am also affiliated with a <br>
RIR.=C2=A0 I am copying this message to the <br>
Responsible Area Director [1] for the SPRING Working Group.<br>
<br>
At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:<br>
&gt;While some on this list have made references to <br>
&gt;Bruno=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 let me start by saying =E2=80=93 I =
<br>
&gt;make no comment on anyone=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 because <br>
&gt;I don=E2=80=99t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment <br>
&gt;on that, and because I find an individual=E2=80=99s <br>
&gt;integrity in a discussion about if a potential <br>
&gt;conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people <br>
&gt;recuse for conflict in any normal environment, <br>
&gt;it is not because they will act on the conflict <br>
&gt;necessarily, it is because of perception, <br>
&gt;because it can taint the issue under discussion, <br>
&gt;and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.<br>
<br>
My question was about the process and the role <br>
with respect to <br>
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.=C2=A0 I am <br>
not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to <br>
comment about his integrity.=C2=A0 It has been pointed <br>
out to me that the person is well-known.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t <br>
see what that has to do with the question which I asked.<br>
<br>
There is a message at <br>
<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8KaFgVIrF=
2Ymx4GC8/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.or=
g/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8KaFgVIrF2Ymx4GC8/</a> <br>
which lists the Responsible Area Director as a <br>
Contributor.=C2=A0 In my opinion, the procedural <br>
aspects are problematic.=C2=A0 I commented about a <br>
somewhat similar topic previously [2].=C2=A0 From what <br>
I understand, RFC 2026 is applicable for all <br>
documents coming out of the IETF <br>
Stream.=C2=A0 According to that RFC, the &quot;procedures <br>
are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting <br>
generally-accepted practices&quot;.=C2=A0 One of the <br>
definitions in RFC 7776 is: &quot;A conflict of <br>
interest may arise if someone involved in the <br>
process of handling a harassment report is in the <br>
role of Reporter, Respondent, or <br>
Subject.=C2=A0 Furthermore, a conflict of interest <br>
arises if the person involved in the process of <br>
handling a harassment report is closely <br>
associated personally or through affiliation with <br>
any of the Reporter, Respondent, or <br>
Subject&quot;.=C2=A0 The general practice, in such a <br>
situation, is recusal.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll invite the <br>
Responsible Area Director to comment about <br>
whether there should be an exception to that practice and the rationale for=
 it.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
S. Moonesamy<br>
<br>
1. <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/</a><br=
>
2. <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7Q=
HlbiFX3eE/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.o=
rg/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbiFX3eE/</a> <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000003fc0f1059fd310c7--


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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <C8417F71-D61E-42AC-831E-B85269D5D4A5@steffann.nl> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200229223634.093850f0@elandnews.com> <DBBPR03MB54150500DA829FBAB73DFEC1EEE60@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200301111046.0c0499b0@elandnews.com> <CAOj+MMH3eyjoQe=SokYQ89HM2po01G1V=kgO+653EKx8eaobzw@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:17:26 -0500
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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The usual practice when a hair o-authors a document is for the co-chair 
to manage all aspects of the document life cycle.  In this case, due to 
the co-chair being unavailable, we have a bit of a problem.  For 
non-contentious documents, we can easily manage anyway.  In this case, 
the document is quite contentious.  Which makes things complicated.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/1/2020 6:02 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 
> Exception ? As far as I see it this is rather a norm in multiple WGs 
> across IETF for chair to co-author or contribute to his area of focus. 
> And there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact it is 
> expected for chair to read the draft  and comment othen resulting in 
> becoming a contributor or at least being added to the Ack section.
> 
> If this saga continues any further I recommend we start first by 
> obsoleting RFC8200 too. After all it's main author Bob Hinden was also a 
> 6man chair who requested publication of 2460bis:
> 
> 2016-12-02
> 2016-12-02 17:06:39 -0800
> 	08	Bob Hinden	IETF WG state changed to Submitted to IESG for 
> Publication from WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up
> 2016-12-02
> 	08	Bob Hinden	IESG state changed to Publication Requested
> 2016-12-02
> 	08	Bob Hinden	IESG process started in state Publication Requested
> 2016-11-30
> 	08	Bob Hinden	Changed document writeup
> 2016-11-15
> 	08	Bob Hinden	New version available: draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:38 PM S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com 
> <mailto:sm%2Bietf@elandsys.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Andrew,
> 
>     [Cc to ietf@]
> 
>     I'll disclose that I am also affiliated with a
>     RIR.  I am copying this message to the
>     Responsible Area Director [1] for the SPRING Working Group.
> 
>     At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:
>      >While some on this list have made references to
>      >Bruno’s integrity – let me start by saying – I
>      >make no comment on anyone’s integrity – because
>      >I don’t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment
>      >on that, and because I find an individual’s
>      >integrity in a discussion about if a potential
>      >conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people
>      >recuse for conflict in any normal environment,
>      >it is not because they will act on the conflict
>      >necessarily, it is because of perception,
>      >because it can taint the issue under discussion,
>      >and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.
> 
>     My question was about the process and the role
>     with respect to
>     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.  I am
>     not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to
>     comment about his integrity.  It has been pointed
>     out to me that the person is well-known.  I don't
>     see what that has to do with the question which I asked.
> 
>     There is a message at
>     https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8KaFgVIrF2Ymx4GC8/
> 
>     which lists the Responsible Area Director as a
>     Contributor.  In my opinion, the procedural
>     aspects are problematic.  I commented about a
>     somewhat similar topic previously [2].  From what
>     I understand, RFC 2026 is applicable for all
>     documents coming out of the IETF
>     Stream.  According to that RFC, the "procedures
>     are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting
>     generally-accepted practices".  One of the
>     definitions in RFC 7776 is: "A conflict of
>     interest may arise if someone involved in the
>     process of handling a harassment report is in the
>     role of Reporter, Respondent, or
>     Subject.  Furthermore, a conflict of interest
>     arises if the person involved in the process of
>     handling a harassment report is closely
>     associated personally or through affiliation with
>     any of the Reporter, Respondent, or
>     Subject".  The general practice, in such a
>     situation, is recusal.  I'll invite the
>     Responsible Area Director to comment about
>     whether there should be an exception to that practice and the
>     rationale for it.
> 
>     Regards,
>     S. Moonesamy
> 
>     1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
>     2.
>     https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbiFX3eE/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:30:24 -0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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--5e5c4595_b13a31_ba8d
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As Robert mentioned, it is quite often the case for a chair to participat=
e in the development of a draft.
Taking RTGWG as an example, when we got (as result of a merge) a draft th=
at both Chris and myself have co-authored, we had RTGWG secretary taking =
care of the life cycle of the draft.
I=E2=80=99m more than convinced that Bruno is entirely capable of driving=
 the process unbiased and fair to all involved, =C2=A0pointing out that t=
here are formal possibilities to address this.

Cheers,
Jeff
On Mar 1, 2020, 3:17 PM -0800, Joel M. Halpern <jmh=40joelhalpern.com>, w=
rote:
> The usual practice when a hair o-authors a document is for the co-chair=

> to manage all aspects of the document life cycle. In this case, due to
> the co-chair being unavailable, we have a bit of a problem. =46or
> non-contentious documents, we can easily manage anyway. In this case,
> the document is quite contentious. Which makes things complicated.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 3/1/2020 6:02 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> >
> > Exception=C2=A0=3F As far as I see it this is rather a norm in multip=
le WGs
> > across IET=46 for chair to co-author or contribute to his area of foc=
us.
> > And there is absolutely nothing=C2=A0wrong with it. In fact it is
> > expected=C2=A0for chair to read the draft=C2=A0 and comment othen res=
ulting in
> > becoming a contributor=C2=A0or at least being added to the Ack sectio=
n.
> >
> > If this saga=C2=A0continues any further I recommend we start first by=

> > obsoleting R=46C8200 too. After all it's main author Bob Hinden was a=
lso a
> > 6man chair who requested publication of 2460bis:
> >
> > 2016-12-02
> > 2016-12-02 17:06:39 -0800
> > 08 Bob Hinden IET=46 WG state changed to Submitted to IESG for
> > Publication=C2=A0from WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up
> > 2016-12-02
> > 08 Bob Hinden IESG state changed to Publication Requested
> > 2016-12-02
> > 08 Bob Hinden IESG process started in state Publication Requested
> > 2016-11-30
> > 08 Bob Hinden Changed document writeup
> > 2016-11-15
> > 08 Bob Hinden New version available: draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.tx=
t
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:38 PM S Moonesamy <sm+ietf=40elandsys.com
> > <mailto:sm%2Bietf=40elandsys.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > =5BCc to ietf=40=5D
> >
> > I'll disclose that I am also affiliated with a
> > RIR.=C2=A0 I am copying this message to the
> > Responsible Area Director =5B1=5D for the SPRING Working Group.
> >
> > At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:
> > > While some on this list have made references to
> > > Bruno=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 let me start by saying =E2=80=93=
 I
> > > make no comment on anyone=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 because
> > > I don=E2=80=99t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment
> > > on that, and because I find an individual=E2=80=99s
> > > integrity in a discussion about if a potential
> > > conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people
> > > recuse for conflict in any normal environment,
> > > it is not because they will act on the conflict
> > > necessarily, it is because of perception,
> > > because it can taint the issue under discussion,
> > > and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.
> >
> > My question was about the process and the role
> > with respect to
> > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.=C2=A0 I am
> > not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to
> > comment about his integrity.=C2=A0 It has been pointed
> > out to me that the person is well-known.=C2=A0 I don't
> > see what that has to do with the question which I asked.
> >
> > There is a message at
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8Ka=46gVIr=462=
Ymx4GC8/
> >
> > which lists the Responsible Area Director as a
> > Contributor.=C2=A0 In my opinion, the procedural
> > aspects are problematic.=C2=A0 I commented about a
> > somewhat similar topic previously =5B2=5D.=C2=A0 =46rom what
> > I understand, R=46C 2026 is applicable for all
> > documents coming out of the IET=46
> > Stream.=C2=A0 According to that R=46C, the =22procedures
> > are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting
> > generally-accepted practices=22.=C2=A0 One of the
> > definitions in R=46C 7776 is: =22A conflict of
> > interest may arise if someone involved in the
> > process of handling a harassment report is in the
> > role of Reporter, Respondent, or
> > Subject.=C2=A0 =46urthermore, a conflict of interest
> > arises if the person involved in the process of
> > handling a harassment report is closely
> > associated personally or through affiliation with
> > any of the Reporter, Respondent, or
> > Subject=22.=C2=A0 The general practice, in such a
> > situation, is recusal.=C2=A0 I'll invite the
> > Responsible Area Director to comment about
> > whether there should be an exception to that practice and the
> > rationale for it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > S. Moonesamy
> >
> > 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
> > 2.
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbi=46X=
3eE/
> >
> >
> > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> > spring mailing list
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> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >
>
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
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--5e5c4595_b13a31_ba8d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>As Robert mentioned, it is quite often the case for=
 a chair to participate in the development of a draft.&=23160;</div>
Taking RTGWG as an example, when we got (as result of a merge) a draft th=
at both Chris and myself have co-authored, we had RTGWG secretary taking =
care of the life cycle of the draft.
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>I=E2=80=99m more than convinced that Bruno is entir=
ely capable of driving the process unbiased and fair to all involved, &=23=
160;pointing out that there are formal possibilities to address this.</di=
v>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
<div class=3D=22match=46ont=22>Cheers,
<div>Jeff</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On Mar 1, 2020, 3:17 PM -0800, Joel=
 M. Halpern &lt;jmh=40joelhalpern.com&gt;, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =231abc9c;=22>Th=
e usual practice when a hair o-authors a document is for the co-chair<br =
/>
to manage all aspects of the document life cycle. In this case, due to<br=
 />
the co-chair being unavailable, we have a bit of a problem. =46or<br />
non-contentious documents, we can easily manage anyway. In this case,<br =
/>
the document is quite contentious. Which makes things complicated.<br />
<br />
Yours,<br />
Joel<br />
<br />
On 3/1/2020 6:02 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22><b=
r />
Exception&=23160;=3F As far as I see it this is rather a norm in multiple=
 WGs<br />
across IET=46 for chair to co-author or contribute to his area of focus.<=
br />
And there is absolutely nothing&=23160;wrong with it. In fact it is<br />=

expected&=23160;for chair to read the draft&=23160; and comment othen res=
ulting in<br />
becoming a contributor&=23160;or at least being added to the Ack section.=
<br />
<br />
If this saga&=23160;continues any further I recommend we start first by<b=
r />
obsoleting R=46C8200 too. After all it's main author Bob Hinden was also =
a<br />
6man chair who requested publication of 2460bis:<br />
<br />
2016-12-02<br />
2016-12-02 17:06:39 -0800<br />
08 Bob Hinden IET=46 WG state changed to Submitted to IESG for<br />
Publication&=23160;from WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up<br />
2016-12-02<br />
08 Bob Hinden IESG state changed to Publication Requested<br />
2016-12-02<br />
08 Bob Hinden IESG process started in state Publication Requested<br />
2016-11-30<br />
08 Bob Hinden Changed document writeup<br />
2016-11-15<br />
08 Bob Hinden New version available: draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt<br=
 />
<br />
<br />
On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:38 PM S Moonesamy &lt;sm+ietf=40elandsys.com<br =
/>
&lt;mailto:sm%2Bietf=40elandsys.com&gt;&gt; wrote:<br />
<br />
Hi Andrew,<br />
<br />
=5BCc to ietf=40=5D<br />
<br />
I'll disclose that I am also affiliated with a<br />
RIR.&=23160; I am copying this message to the<br />
Responsible Area Director =5B1=5D for the SPRING Working Group.<br />
<br />
At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =233498db;=22>Wh=
ile some on this list have made references to<br />
Bruno=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 let me start by saying =E2=80=93 I<br=
 />
make no comment on anyone=E2=80=99s integrity =E2=80=93 because<br />
I don=E2=80=99t know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment<br />
on that, and because I find an individual=E2=80=99s<br />
integrity in a discussion about if a potential<br />
conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people<br />
recuse for conflict in any normal environment,<br />
it is not because they will act on the conflict<br />
necessarily, it is because of perception,<br />
because it can taint the issue under discussion,<br />
and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.<br /></blockquo=
te>
<br />
My question was about the process and the role<br />
with respect to<br />
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.&=23160; I am<br />
not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to<br />
comment about his integrity.&=23160; It has been pointed<br />
out to me that the person is well-known.&=23160; I don't<br />
see what that has to do with the question which I asked.<br />
<br />
There is a message at<br />
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8Ka=46gVIr=462Ymx4=
GC8/<br />
<br />
which lists the Responsible Area Director as a<br />
Contributor.&=23160; In my opinion, the procedural<br />
aspects are problematic.&=23160; I commented about a<br />
somewhat similar topic previously =5B2=5D.&=23160; =46rom what<br />
I understand, R=46C 2026 is applicable for all<br />
documents coming out of the IET=46<br />
Stream.&=23160; According to that R=46C, the =22procedures<br />
are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting<br />
generally-accepted practices=22.&=23160; One of the<br />
definitions in R=46C 7776 is: =22A conflict of<br />
interest may arise if someone involved in the<br />
process of handling a harassment report is in the<br />
role of Reporter, Respondent, or<br />
Subject.&=23160; =46urthermore, a conflict of interest<br />
arises if the person involved in the process of<br />
handling a harassment report is closely<br />
associated personally or through affiliation with<br />
any of the Reporter, Respondent, or<br />
Subject=22.&=23160; The general practice, in such a<br />
situation, is recusal.&=23160; I'll invite the<br />
Responsible Area Director to comment about<br />
whether there should be an exception to that practice and the<br />
rationale for it.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
S. Moonesamy<br />
<br />
1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/<br />
2.<br />
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbi=46X3eE/=
<br />
<br />
<br />
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
spring mailing list<br />
spring=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<br />
<br /></blockquote>
<br />
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
spring mailing list<br />
spring=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<br /></blockquote>
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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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--_000_cc81dc2fbd4c4e3db3c1d2259386bf00huaweicom_--


From nobody Sun Mar  1 20:22:02 2020
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>,  SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 01:07:23 -0300
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Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update?
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On 29/2/20 07:45, Robert Raszuk wrote:
[...]
> 
> And to be very clear - I am not saying you are wrong. Perhaps you look 
> at train analogy - sure if each passenger would start messing with train 
> car/wagons construction the train would clearly not go far. But if so we 
> just need a new train architecture rather then saying - oh no Mr. SR you 
> can not travel at all.

A number of us have been talling you, for a long time now, that these 
proposals (PSP, TI-LFA) change the architecture.

Rather than admitting they do require a change in the architecture, you 
have tried to pretend they fit in the current architecture.

Rather than focusing your energy in making your case for changing it, 
all these discussions have been wasting everyone's time trying to make 
each of us believe that these behaviors are currently supported by IPv6.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
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Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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> On 28 Feb 2020, at 01:51, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Pablo,
>=20
> I have been looking at the latest version. See my previous note to =
Stefano Salsano. I really think that the problem here is that certain =
things are obvious to SRH experts but not to others, and they simply =
need more explanation in elementary terms.

Exactly this.  The text has ambiguities due to the language used.  That =
(at a minimum) needs to be fixed before advancing.

Tim


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Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion
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From: Melchior Aelmans <melchior@aelmans.eu>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:25:15 +0100
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To: Ondrej Zajicek <santiago@crfreenet.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-performance-routing-02.txt
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Hi,

I think this work is very interesting and could serve a very broad use case
as mentioned by others in this thread as well.

For example I would like to see, and offer to help out write those, the
working of NETWORK_LATENCY in combination with ADD-PATH.
This particular example would offer a downstream network to select best
paths based on the NETWORK_LATENCY property inside a given network.
Would the authors be interested in exploring this?

I do also agree that this maybe should not be a seperate SAFI. I'm
interested in discussing further.

Regards,
Melchior

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 11:37 AM Ondrej Zajicek <santiago@crfreenet.org>
wrote:

> Hi
>
> My main objection to the draft is it uses separate SAFI to signal that
> latency based routing is used. I don't think that is a good idea. Latency
> based routing is a general concept, which makes sense to use with several
> existing SAFIs (at least 1, 4 and 128). Whether or not announce and
> use NETWORK_LATENCY TLV should be an independent session property, like
> using AIGP TLV or e.g. ADD-PATH extension.
>
> This is an issue that was underspecified in RFC 7311, just kept by
> configuration of both sides. Perhaps we need a new capability to specify
> which AIGP TLVs (if any) are supposed to be used on the session, so it
> can be negotiated automatically like ADD-PATH.
>
> --
> Ondrej 'Santiago' Zajicek (email: santiago@crfreenet.org)
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--000000000000ffeb59059fdc9a0b
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>I think this work is ver=
y interesting and=C2=A0could serve a very broad use case as mentioned by ot=
hers in this thread as well.</div><div><br></div><div>For example I would l=
ike to see, and offer to help out write those, the working of=C2=A0NETWORK_=
LATENCY in combination with ADD-PATH.</div><div>This particular=C2=A0exampl=
e would offer a downstream=C2=A0network to select best paths based on the=
=C2=A0NETWORK_LATENCY property inside a given network.</div><div>Would the =
authors be interested in exploring this?</div><div><br></div><div>I do also=
 agree that this maybe should not be a seperate SAFI. I&#39;m interested in=
 discussing=C2=A0further.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Melch=
ior</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 11:37 AM Ondrej Zajicek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sa=
ntiago@crfreenet.org">santiago@crfreenet.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi<br>
<br>
My main objection to the draft is it uses separate SAFI to signal that<br>
latency based routing is used. I don&#39;t think that is a good idea. Laten=
cy<br>
based routing is a general concept, which makes sense to use with several<b=
r>
existing SAFIs (at least 1, 4 and 128). Whether or not announce and<br>
use NETWORK_LATENCY TLV should be an independent session property, like<br>
using AIGP TLV or e.g. ADD-PATH extension.<br>
<br>
This is an issue that was underspecified in RFC 7311, just kept by<br>
configuration of both sides. Perhaps we need a new capability to specify<br=
>
which AIGP TLVs (if any) are supposed to be used on the session, so it<br>
can be negotiated automatically like ADD-PATH.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Ondrej &#39;Santiago&#39; Zajicek (email: <a href=3D"mailto:santiago@crfree=
net.org" target=3D"_blank">santiago@crfreenet.org</a>)<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
CC: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:   WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Thread-Index: AQHV7hqmsXwWHzuuv0qtvKDuNXkV3Kg1QN9g
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 12:48:41 +0000
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References: <F88E3F76-DD4B-4807-A458-85FABFF20D96@gmail.com> <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <CAHw9_iJ_ipEvU0NUx44XbK0_DrLe_GRw6G=m+chK4wZcRP8BMg@mail.gmail.com> <ACA082A4-BC78-4C63-9F91-5C9A44F47642@cisco.com> <b693c244-95f9-473e-de21-166393280d18@gmail.com> <CAHw9_iL6oM73JnSU1QL0+PRohSH6sEskD=enH7QsPrWiUfStDg@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200227113437.10ad6088@elandnews.com> <23106_1582880310_5E58D636_23106_323_2_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DC9786@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228011557.0bd1a0b0@elandnews.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear S Moonesamy,

Speaking as an individual contributor, please find below a few comments

1) The below email was a private email between a set of persons.
Forwarding it, to a public list without permission is frown upon by the Net=
iquette (if not savoir-vivre, to begin with)

"If the message was a personal message to  you and you are re-posting to a =
group, you should ask permission  first."
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

2) While forwarding the email, you have edited it, removing you own origina=
l email and the context. Context that nobody on the mailing list can be awa=
re of.

"If you are forwarding or re-posting a message you've received, do not chan=
ge the wording."
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855


I would suggest that next time you want the communication to be public, you=
 start it on the public mailing list, so that the whole WG is aware of the =
whole thread.
(Note that this would not change the text in my email)

--Bruno

=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 10:36 AM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; spring@ietf.org
> Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux; Rob Shakir
> Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC =
- draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Decraene,
> At 12:58 AM 28-02-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> >1) People have the right to express, including to hum sometimes, but=20
> >decision is not based on the number of "+1".
> >Do you have the impression that the decision is based on some voting=20
> >scheme? (Assuming the decision was made in the first place...) If=20
> >so, could you please help me see what makes you feel so?
>=20
> My comment about the above was a response to the comment at=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/nIAqSeZJKq64QHbyy_ZrNqk_CXg/
>=20
> >2) As regards to the timing, the duration of the call for comments=20
> >has indeed elapsed.
> >If your comment is related to the actual work, as you may have seen,=20
> >there has been a high number of comments on the list so there is=20
> >work to be done on the resolution of the comments. The more=20
> >comments, the more time. The harder the comment, the more time. I=20
> >can't provide or force people to provide an ETA for the resolutions=20
> >of comments. I think that working on improving the document is more=20
> >important than a few weeks delay. BTW, I'm not aware of specific=20
> >timing requirement to advance a document to RFC. Closest things I've=20
> >seen is "SOON" [1] and "timely" [2]
>=20
> I enquired about the working group process.  I don't see anything in=20
> the reference to RFC 2026 about Working Group procedures.  The second=20
> reference is to an Internet-Draft about the definition of the word=20
> "timely".  As far as I am aware, that Internet-Draft is not part of=20
> IETF Working Group procedures.
>=20
> >If your question is related to formal state, is your point that the=20
> >datatracker state should have been moved from " In WG Last Call " to=20
> >" Revised I-D Needed - Issue raised by WGLC ". If so, I tend to=20
> >agree with you. Could/will also be " Doc Shepherd Follow-up=20
> >Underway" at some point.
> >
> >That been said, as I've said on the list, the end of the WG LC is=20
> >not the end of the ability for the WG to make technical comments on=20
> >the list. [3]. One example may be the latest comment from Chris Bowers.
> >
> >3) Your specific questions been answered, it's not crystal clear to=20
> >me what are you trying to achieve with your email. Do you believe=20
> >the document should advance faster, slower, not advance? That your=20
> >comments were not adequately answered? (although I'm not seen any=20
> >comment from your side on the mailing list). Please help me=20
> >understand your root concern.
>=20
> My question was about when the the Working Group Last Call ends.  I=20
> don't view it as appropriate to determine whether the document should=20
> advance faster or slower as I am not responsible to make such a determina=
tion.
>=20
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy=20
>

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
CC: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, rtg-ads <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Thread-Index: AQHV7m0mq7uRDIrDzE6zxTCNbz5nDqg1RP7A
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 13:19:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Fernando,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:28 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; 'SPRING WG List'
> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; rtg-ads
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Bruno,
>=20
> On 28/2/20 13:53, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> > Hello SPRING WG,
> >=20
> > Please find below some status on the main points of this WG LC.
> >=20
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >=20
> > A) PSP [1] & RFC 8200 [2]
> >=20
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >=20
> > This point is whether SRH removal by the penultimate SR end point (aka=
=20
> > PSP) is allowed by RFC 8200.
> >=20
> > More specifically
> >=20
> > " S14.4.Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain"
> >=20
> > Vs
> >=20
> > "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
> > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery
> > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes,
> > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
> > of the IPv6 header."
> >=20
> > On this text, what is been discussed is "the node (or each of the set o=
f=20
> > nodes,
> >=20
> > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
> >=20
> > of the IPv6 header."
> >=20
> > More specifically whether "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header=
"=20
> > means the "final Destination Address" or the "Destination Address" as=
=20
> > seen in the packet that the node received.
>=20
> If it meant "Destination Address", that would mean multicast addresses,=
=20
> would be allowed in routing headers.

I don't think so.=20
I'll try to reorganize the sentence to try to highlight the point:

until the packet reaches the node identified in the Destination Address fie=
ld of the IPv6 header.
(or each of the set of nodes [identified by that Destination Address] ,in t=
he case of multicast)

In the case that we are discussing, there is one single node, identified by=
 the Destination Address. This is not multicast.

> Do you think htat's the case?
>
>=20
>=20
> [...]
> > Finally, the responsible AD has not accepted the related errata.=20
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/
>=20
> The status of this erratum is found here:=20
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933   -- not on the mailing-list=20
> archive. And the erratum is marked as "reported", not as "rejected".
>=20
> Suresh may well go ahead and reject it. BUt so far the status has not=20
> changed since I've reported it.

The email from Suresh seems crystal clear, including to you given your reac=
tion. Even after you said you would appeal, Suresh said that he were standi=
ng by his decision.=20
" > As such, I will formally Appeal your decision.
Please do go ahead. I stand by my assessment that this is a misuse of the E=
rrata process and it is not a simple clarification as you claim."


Also, I have never sent that the errata was rejected. Please don't put word=
s in my mouth. I said "not accepted".

Finally, the errata status has now change. So what's you point, now?

>=20
>=20
> > Based on this, the plan is to flag this point of debate in the shepherd=
=20
> > report, and leave this for the IESG to decide on how to read RFC 8200=
=20
> > (which represented 6MAN consensus and which the IESG approved). The=20
> > threat to appeal will also be explicitly indicated (shepherd write up,=
=20
> > point 10).
>=20
> I have *noted* a number of times that I would appeal (so *please* do=20
> note that a number of people felt that the specs were being violated=20
> *and* that our processes were being circumvented).
>=20
> But I've never *threatened* to appeal.
>=20
> A quick lookup in a dictionary says:
> "threat"
>=20
> noun
> 1.
> a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other=20
> hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.
> 2.
> a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger.
>=20
>=20
> Clearly, there was no "threat". I did indicate that one of our specs was=
=20
> being violated, and that our processes were being circumvented (in the=20
> same way that I'm quite curious how you can claim consensus on this=20
> document, but.. ).  That says, appeals are part of our processes.
>=20
> I have no idea whatsoever how, sticking to our processes could be=20
> considered a threat.

I used the wording from the official shepherd write up.
" (10) Has anyone threatened an appeal"
https://www.ietf.org/chairs/document-writeups/document-writeup-working-grou=
p-documents/

I you have an issue with this term, please raise it to the IESG.

I fully agree that appeal is part of the process (so does errata). I would =
go further that IMHO this is definitely a required part of the process.
Making an appeal is your right. I don't want discourage or encourage you do=
 use it in any way.


> Quite the contrary, the intention is for our existing specs and=20
> procedures to be respected. If *that* is considered a threat, that's a=20
> different question.
>=20
>=20
> >=20
> > Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to=
=20
> > the benefit of PSP.
> >=20
> > My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its=
=20
> > level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It=
=20
> > may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"=20
> > (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a=20
> > vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing=
=20
> > gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I=20
> > don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of=
=20
> > hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).=20
>=20
> Am I reading correctly? Are you kind of stating that the same working=20
> group that is shipoing this document doesn't have enough of a clue to=20
> analyze the benefits (or lack thereof) of PSP?
>=20
> And, because of that, you make the assessment yourself?
=20
On the mailing list, multiple persons stated that it was implemented in the=
ir implementation or useful for their deployment.
I'm saying that the performance gain cannot be evaluated by the working gro=
up.
>From a logical standpoint, to prove that this is useful, it's enough to hav=
e one implementation/deployment case to benefit from it. This has been stat=
ed on the mailing list.
To prove that this is not useful, one need to prove that this is not useful=
 some any one/any case. This is much harder. No one has even tried to make =
that demonstration.


>=20
>=20
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >=20
> > I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors).
> >=20
> > Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the=20
> > text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, thi=
s=20
> > would not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document=
=20
> > to the IESG. I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to=
=20
> > make the formal decision to send the document to the next level. Thank=
=20
> > you Martin.
>=20
> Indeed, this could be seen as a possible conflict of interests.

That's why both myself and Martin have stated that the decision would be ta=
ken my Martin.

That been said, "conflict of interest" is about "interest". I'm not working=
 for a vendor who may have an interest to push, or delay or stop a work bas=
ed on it's hardware and software capability. I'm not working for an operato=
r who is deploying it.
My only interest would be to be listed as an contributor on a document. Rea=
lly? I'm fine with been removed from the list of contributors. I have not p=
roposed that because doing so would be borderline with regards to IPR decla=
ration, and could be seen an trying to hide this. Trying very hard to see a=
 remote conflict of interest, it would be to slow down SRv6 to avoid the co=
mpetitors of my employer to use it. So quite the opposite direction.

--Bruno
=20
> Thanks,
> --=20
> Fernando Gont
> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
CC: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Sander,

> From: Sander Steffann [mailto:sander@steffann.nl]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:51 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
> Cc: SPRING WG List; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; 6man WG
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > D) formal decision to advance this document
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors).
> > Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the te=
xt in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, this woul=
d not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document to the =
IESG. I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to make the fo=
rmal decision to send the document to the next level. Thank you Martin.
> > As an element of context, I handled this WG LC not for the fun of it or=
 because I believed it would easy, but because we needed to advance this do=
cument and that Rob was not available to take that role.
>=20
> Wait, what?!  There is no "we needed to advance this document" in the IET=
F or any other consensus based forum...=20

By advance this document, I meant start the WG LC. Which is about collectin=
g comments on the document.

The situation is that there was and is a single chair. I'm personally ok to=
 not proceed with any adoption call or last call while there is no other co=
-chair. Note that my AD never asked for this.


> Based on the discussions on the mailing list (including questions on why =
PSP is so important that we can't take it out for now which have never been=
 clearly answered by the authors) I can't see you can possibly declare cons=
ensus.
>=20
> If there is going to be an appeal I will certainly put my signature on it.

This is you right to appeal to the IESG.
Note that appealing to the IESG is exactly what I'm proposing to do with re=
gards to the reading of RFC 8200.

--Bruno
>
> I also find the behaviour of the WG chairs does not befit their responsib=
ilities.
>=20
> Appalling.
> Sander
>

___________________________________________________________________________=
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From nobody Mon Mar  2 05:37:27 2020
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To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <99ad1c26-55e4-6c07-c896-60b0f4d9c54a@gont.com.ar> <5847_1583155185_5E5D07F1_5847_402_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD4EE4@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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As far as I can tell, most of your email below is fair and well taken. 
I appreciate your efforts Bruno.

However, I have to disagree with your description of what it takes to 
decide to keep in or remove a "feature".  You assert that an 
implementation having been done and a claimed use is enough to have 
something in this document.  If it were an authors draft, that would be 
true.  As a working group document, aiming at becoming an RFC, the bar 
is higher.  We do not put every optional feature in our documents.
In particular, in this case several people have pointed out that the 
claimed utility is marginal.  For example, the primary argument seems to 
be a device in the SR domain that can not ignored the SR header.  Excpet 
that RFC 8200 actually already requires that devices be able to ignore 
source routing headers with SL = 0.

I would sincerely hope that we do not put features into a document for 
the purpose of supporting devices that do not comply with existing RFCs.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/2/2020 8:19 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> Fernando,
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar]
>> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:28 PM
>> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; 'SPRING WG List'
>> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; rtg-ads
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> Bruno,
>>
>> On 28/2/20 13:53, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>>> Hello SPRING WG,
>>>
>>> Please find below some status on the main points of this WG LC.
>>>
>>> ===============
>>>
>>> A) PSP [1] & RFC 8200 [2]
>>>
>>> ===============
>>>
>>> This point is whether SRH removal by the penultimate SR end point (aka
>>> PSP) is allowed by RFC 8200.
>>>
>>> More specifically
>>>
>>> " S14.4.Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain"
>>>
>>> Vs
>>>
>>> "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
>>> processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery
>>> path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes,
>>> in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
>>> of the IPv6 header."
>>>
>>> On this text, what is been discussed is "the node (or each of the set of
>>> nodes,
>>>
>>> in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
>>>
>>> of the IPv6 header."
>>>
>>> More specifically whether "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header"
>>> means the "final Destination Address" or the "Destination Address" as
>>> seen in the packet that the node received.
>>
>> If it meant "Destination Address", that would mean multicast addresses,
>> would be allowed in routing headers.
> 
> I don't think so.
> I'll try to reorganize the sentence to try to highlight the point:
> 
> until the packet reaches the node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header.
> (or each of the set of nodes [identified by that Destination Address] ,in the case of multicast)
> 
> In the case that we are discussing, there is one single node, identified by the Destination Address. This is not multicast.
> 
>> Do you think htat's the case?
>>
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>> Finally, the responsible AD has not accepted the related errata.
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/
>>
>> The status of this erratum is found here:
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933   -- not on the mailing-list
>> archive. And the erratum is marked as "reported", not as "rejected".
>>
>> Suresh may well go ahead and reject it. BUt so far the status has not
>> changed since I've reported it.
> 
> The email from Suresh seems crystal clear, including to you given your reaction. Even after you said you would appeal, Suresh said that he were standing by his decision.
> " > As such, I will formally Appeal your decision.
> Please do go ahead. I stand by my assessment that this is a misuse of the Errata process and it is not a simple clarification as you claim."
> 
> 
> Also, I have never sent that the errata was rejected. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said "not accepted".
> 
> Finally, the errata status has now change. So what's you point, now?
> 
>>
>>
>>> Based on this, the plan is to flag this point of debate in the shepherd
>>> report, and leave this for the IESG to decide on how to read RFC 8200
>>> (which represented 6MAN consensus and which the IESG approved). The
>>> threat to appeal will also be explicitly indicated (shepherd write up,
>>> point 10).
>>
>> I have *noted* a number of times that I would appeal (so *please* do
>> note that a number of people felt that the specs were being violated
>> *and* that our processes were being circumvented).
>>
>> But I've never *threatened* to appeal.
>>
>> A quick lookup in a dictionary says:
>> "threat"
>>
>> noun
>> 1.
>> a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other
>> hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.
>> 2.
>> a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger.
>>
>>
>> Clearly, there was no "threat". I did indicate that one of our specs was
>> being violated, and that our processes were being circumvented (in the
>> same way that I'm quite curious how you can claim consensus on this
>> document, but.. ).  That says, appeals are part of our processes.
>>
>> I have no idea whatsoever how, sticking to our processes could be
>> considered a threat.
> 
> I used the wording from the official shepherd write up.
> " (10) Has anyone threatened an appeal"
> https://www.ietf.org/chairs/document-writeups/document-writeup-working-group-documents/
> 
> I you have an issue with this term, please raise it to the IESG.
> 
> I fully agree that appeal is part of the process (so does errata). I would go further that IMHO this is definitely a required part of the process.
> Making an appeal is your right. I don't want discourage or encourage you do use it in any way.
> 
> 
>> Quite the contrary, the intention is for our existing specs and
>> procedures to be respected. If *that* is considered a threat, that's a
>> different question.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to
>>> the benefit of PSP.
>>>
>>> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its
>>> level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It
>>> may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
>>> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>>> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing
>>> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I
>>> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of
>>> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
>>
>> Am I reading correctly? Are you kind of stating that the same working
>> group that is shipoing this document doesn't have enough of a clue to
>> analyze the benefits (or lack thereof) of PSP?
>>
>> And, because of that, you make the assessment yourself?
>   
> On the mailing list, multiple persons stated that it was implemented in their implementation or useful for their deployment.
> I'm saying that the performance gain cannot be evaluated by the working group.
>>From a logical standpoint, to prove that this is useful, it's enough to have one implementation/deployment case to benefit from it. This has been stated on the mailing list.
> To prove that this is not useful, one need to prove that this is not useful some any one/any case. This is much harder. No one has even tried to make that demonstration.
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>> ===============
>>>
>>> I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors).
>>>
>>> Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the
>>> text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, this
>>> would not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document
>>> to the IESG. I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to
>>> make the formal decision to send the document to the next level. Thank
>>> you Martin.
>>
>> Indeed, this could be seen as a possible conflict of interests.
> 
> That's why both myself and Martin have stated that the decision would be taken my Martin.
> 
> That been said, "conflict of interest" is about "interest". I'm not working for a vendor who may have an interest to push, or delay or stop a work based on it's hardware and software capability. I'm not working for an operator who is deploying it.
> My only interest would be to be listed as an contributor on a document. Really? I'm fine with been removed from the list of contributors. I have not proposed that because doing so would be borderline with regards to IPR declaration, and could be seen an trying to hide this. Trying very hard to see a remote conflict of interest, it would be to slow down SRv6 to avoid the competitors of my employer to use it. So quite the opposite direction.
> 
> --Bruno
>   
>> Thanks,
>> -- 
>> Fernando Gont
>> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
>> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
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> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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> Thank you.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Thread-Index: AQHV7nBpq7uRDIrDzE6zxTCNbz5nDqgw+VaAgAAemQCABDlmoA==
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 13:40:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear Mr  S. Moonesamy,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:03 PM
> To: Martin Vigoureux
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Vigoureux,
>=20
> I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area=20
> Director for the SPRING Working Group [1].  I would like to thank the=20
> Working Group for providing some information [2] about the status of=20
> the Working Group Last Call.
>=20
> I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is=20
> listed as a contributor in=20
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.  It is quite unusual=20
> to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the=20
> Working Group process for the document.  Would there be a potential=20
> conflict of interest?

And as stated in Martin's and mine email, that's the reason for which the d=
ecision will be called by Martin (AD).
=20
> The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the=20
> Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".  I=20
> took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".  As=20
> the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG=20
> Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate.

To me, the email from Suresh was crystal clear.
That been said, Suresh has now updated the errata status. So what's your po=
int exactly?

[under Suresh's control that I'm explicitly adding in copy]

Regards,
--Bruno
=20
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>=20
> 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
> 2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPL=
Bo/
> 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From nobody Mon Mar  2 05:58:08 2020
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Thread-Index: AQHV7nBpq7uRDIrDzE6zxTCNbz5nDqgw+VaAgAAemQCABDlmoIAABh9Q
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 13:58:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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> [under Suresh's control that I'm explicitly adding in copy]

Sorry Suresh, I meant :s/that/who

My primary excuse is that English is not my first language. Still, my mista=
ke.

--Bruno

-----Original Message-----
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o=
range.com
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 2:40 PM
To: S Moonesamy; Martin Vigoureux; Suresh Krishnan
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Dear Mr  S. Moonesamy,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:03 PM
> To: Martin Vigoureux
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Vigoureux,
>=20
> I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area=20
> Director for the SPRING Working Group [1].  I would like to thank the=20
> Working Group for providing some information [2] about the status of=20
> the Working Group Last Call.
>=20
> I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is=20
> listed as a contributor in=20
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.  It is quite unusual=20
> to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the=20
> Working Group process for the document.  Would there be a potential=20
> conflict of interest?

And as stated in Martin's and mine email, that's the reason for which the d=
ecision will be called by Martin (AD).
=20
> The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the=20
> Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".  I=20
> took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".  As=20
> the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG=20
> Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate.

To me, the email from Suresh was crystal clear.
That been said, Suresh has now updated the errata status. So what's your po=
int exactly?

[under Suresh's control that I'm explicitly adding in copy]

Regards,
--Bruno
=20
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>=20
> 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
> 2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPL=
Bo/
> 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
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modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" <chengli13@huawei.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
CC: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "Warren Kumari" <warren@kumari.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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+1.

Not to make a decision, but to agree with Bruno. Many thanks for your infor=
mation, very useful to me :)

Best Regards,
Cheng



-----Original Message-----
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o=
range.com
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 8:49 PM
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia=
.com>; spring@ietf.org; Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Dear S Moonesamy,

Speaking as an individual contributor, please find below a few comments

1) The below email was a private email between a set of persons.
Forwarding it, to a public list without permission is frown upon by the Net=
iquette (if not savoir-vivre, to begin with)

"If the message was a personal message to  you and you are re-posting to a =
group, you should ask permission  first."
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

2) While forwarding the email, you have edited it, removing you own origina=
l email and the context. Context that nobody on the mailing list can be awa=
re of.

"If you are forwarding or re-posting a message you've received, do not chan=
ge the wording."
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855


I would suggest that next time you want the communication to be public, you=
 start it on the public mailing list, so that the whole WG is aware of the =
whole thread.
(Note that this would not change the text in my email)

--Bruno

=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 10:36 AM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; spring@ietf.org
> Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux; Rob Shakir
> Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:=20
> WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Decraene,
> At 12:58 AM 28-02-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> >1) People have the right to express, including to hum sometimes, but=20
> >decision is not based on the number of "+1".
> >Do you have the impression that the decision is based on some voting=20
> >scheme? (Assuming the decision was made in the first place...) If so,=20
> >could you please help me see what makes you feel so?
>=20
> My comment about the above was a response to the comment at=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/nIAqSeZJKq64QHbyy_ZrNqk_C
> Xg/
>=20
> >2) As regards to the timing, the duration of the call for comments=20
> >has indeed elapsed.
> >If your comment is related to the actual work, as you may have seen,=20
> >there has been a high number of comments on the list so there is work=20
> >to be done on the resolution of the comments. The more comments, the=20
> >more time. The harder the comment, the more time. I can't provide or=20
> >force people to provide an ETA for the resolutions of comments. I=20
> >think that working on improving the document is more important than a=20
> >few weeks delay. BTW, I'm not aware of specific timing requirement to=20
> >advance a document to RFC. Closest things I've seen is "SOON" [1] and=20
> >"timely" [2]
>=20
> I enquired about the working group process.  I don't see anything in=20
> the reference to RFC 2026 about Working Group procedures.  The second=20
> reference is to an Internet-Draft about the definition of the word=20
> "timely".  As far as I am aware, that Internet-Draft is not part of=20
> IETF Working Group procedures.
>=20
> >If your question is related to formal state, is your point that the=20
> >datatracker state should have been moved from " In WG Last Call " to=20
> >" Revised I-D Needed - Issue raised by WGLC ". If so, I tend to agree=20
> >with you. Could/will also be " Doc Shepherd Follow-up Underway" at=20
> >some point.
> >
> >That been said, as I've said on the list, the end of the WG LC is not=20
> >the end of the ability for the WG to make technical comments on the=20
> >list. [3]. One example may be the latest comment from Chris Bowers.
> >
> >3) Your specific questions been answered, it's not crystal clear to=20
> >me what are you trying to achieve with your email. Do you believe the=20
> >document should advance faster, slower, not advance? That your=20
> >comments were not adequately answered? (although I'm not seen any=20
> >comment from your side on the mailing list). Please help me=20
> >understand your root concern.
>=20
> My question was about when the the Working Group Last Call ends.  I=20
> don't view it as appropriate to determine whether the document should=20
> advance faster or slower as I am not responsible to make such a determina=
tion.
>=20
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <C8417F71-D61E-42AC-831E-B85269D5D4A5@steffann.nl> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200229223634.093850f0@elandnews.com> <DBBPR03MB54150500DA829FBAB73DFEC1EEE60@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200301111046.0c0499b0@elandnews.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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S. Moonesamy,

Please see inline
=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy
> Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 9:36 PM
> To: Andrew Alston; ietf@ietf.org
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (=
off-topic)
>=20
> Hi Andrew,
>=20
> [Cc to ietf@]
>=20
> I'll disclose that I am also affiliated with a=20
> RIR.  I am copying this message to the=20
> Responsible Area Director [1] for the SPRING Working Group.
>=20
> At 01:17 AM 01-03-2020, Andrew Alston wrote:
> >While some on this list have made references to=20
> >Bruno's integrity - let me start by saying - I=20
> >make no comment on anyone's integrity - because=20
> >I don't know Mr. Decraene well enough to comment=20
> >on that, and because I find an individual's=20
> >integrity in a discussion about if a potential=20
> >conflict exists to be irrelevant. When people=20
> >recuse for conflict in any normal environment,=20
> >it is not because they will act on the conflict=20
> >necessarily, it is because of perception,=20
> >because it can taint the issue under discussion,=20
> >and it leaves the process open to both attack and appeal.
>=20
> My question was about the process and the role=20
> with respect to=20
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.  I am=20
> not personally acquainted with Mr. Decraene to=20
> comment about his integrity.  It has been pointed=20
> out to me that the person is well-known.  I don't=20
> see what that has to do with the question which I asked.
>=20
> There is a message at=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3zbi71sjcJ8KaFgVIrF2Ymx4GC8/=
=20
> which lists the Responsible Area Director as a=20
> Contributor.  In my opinion, the procedural=20
> aspects are problematic.  I commented about a=20
> somewhat similar topic previously [2].  From what=20
> I understand, RFC 2026 is applicable for all=20
> documents coming out of the IETF=20
> Stream.  According to that RFC, the "procedures=20
> are explicitly aimed at recognizing and adopting=20
> generally-accepted practices".  One of the=20
> definitions in RFC 7776 is: "A conflict of=20
> interest may arise if someone involved in the=20
> process of handling a harassment report is in the=20
> role of Reporter, Respondent, or=20
> Subject.  Furthermore, a conflict of interest=20
> arises if the person involved in the process of=20
> handling a harassment report is closely=20
> associated personally or through affiliation with=20
> any of the Reporter, Respondent, or=20
> Subject".  The general practice, in such a=20
> situation, is recusal.  I'll invite the=20
> Responsible Area Director to comment about=20
> whether there should be an exception to that practice and the rationale f=
or it.

As stated twice on the list, by both by Martin and myself, the decision wil=
l be taken by Martin, not me:

> From: Martin Vigoureux
> Bruno being involved in the draft currently in WG LC, I will handle closi=
ng it.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/w6VJzDYTVRFWOtvHuMso-kkiBXk/

> From: bruno.decraene@orange.com
> I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to make the formal=
 decision to send the document to the next level. Thank you Martin.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/

--Bruno

> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>=20
> 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
> 2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xBjDAIM4hdnSTyxL7QHlbiFX3eE=
/=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 14:16:18 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear S. Moonesamy,

Please see and read inline=20=20
=20
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:03 PM
> To: Martin Vigoureux
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Vigoureux,
>=20
> I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area=20
> Director for the SPRING Working Group [1].  I would like to thank the=20
> Working Group for providing some information [2] about the status of=20
> the Working Group Last Call.
>=20
> I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is=20
> listed as a contributor in=20
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.  It is quite unusual=20
> to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the=20
> Working Group process for the document.  Would there be a potential=20
> conflict of interest?

As stated twice on the list, by both by Martin and myself, the decision wil=
l be taken by Martin, not me:

> From: Martin Vigoureux
> Bruno being involved in the draft currently in WG LC, I will handle closi=
ng it.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/w6VJzDYTVRFWOtvHuMso-kkiBXk/

> From: bruno.decraene@orange.com
> I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to make the formal=
 decision to send the document to the next level. Thank you Martin.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/


> The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the=20
> Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".  I=20
> took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".  As=20
> the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG=20
> Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate.

The email from Suresh that I had cited in support of my statement, seemed a=
nd still seems clear to me.

What was not clear to you in Suresh's email?

>  I will process this and move it to the "Hold for Document Update" state
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/tRn94-NlupHLcWdzo7O9BfHpiik/

> > Just to be clear, I believe that your stated decision of processing thi=
s errata as "Hold for document update" is not only incorrect, but also does=
n't represent the consensus this working group got during the rfc2460bis ef=
fort -- now RFC8200.
[...]
>  > As such, I will formally Appeal your decision.
>
> Please do go ahead. I stand by my assessment that this is a misuse of the=
 Errata process and it is not a simple clarification as you claim."
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/


Please take another look now. Suresh has updated the status of the errata. =
I guess that your point is now moot.

[+ Suresh]

Regards,
--Bruno

> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>=20
> 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
> 2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPL=
Bo/
> 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
CC: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (off-topic)
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References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <C8417F71-D61E-42AC-831E-B85269D5D4A5@steffann.nl> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200229223634.093850f0@elandnews.com> <DBBPR03MB54150500DA829FBAB73DFEC1EEE60@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200301111046.0c0499b0@elandnews.com> <CAOj+MMH3eyjoQe=SokYQ89HM2po01G1V=kgO+653EKx8eaobzw@mail.gmail.com> <abc665ae-603b-49d9-9ce5-c51c3072e571@joelhalpern.com> <DBBPR03MB5415EAB1D2D2992CF7A39FBAEEE70@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
CC: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 14:47:35 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion
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Hi Haoyu,

thanks for your remarks. Let me pick up your numbering


  1.  IOAM information could be added by a passed router, if there's intere=
st. The draft doesn't exclude that. But that's not in focus either. I didn'=
t make up my mind, whether and which IOAM information may add value to such=
 measurements. But that doesn't preclude this discussion. I'd prefer any re=
lated information in a separate document (and happily add a reference, shou=
ld there be one).
  2.  The path set up chosen carries a design and it is optimized by the go=
al one monitored path/interface, one measurement path. It allows active mon=
itoring of connectivity, congestion location (queue depth) and delay at for=
warding layer. The draft assumes a single outage only. I didn't try to seiz=
e the same information with less measurements (I'm happy I found the soluti=
on shown in the draft).
I agree that automated set up of large scale network monitoring measurement=
s is an important and related topic. I prefer to look at it as another buil=
ding block. I think, other optimized measurement path set ups may be used t=
o reach other monitoring goals (e.g., just connectivity, just congestion lo=
cation or just delays).

I don't want to overload this draft, even if contents are related. I'd be g=
lad if it is a useful part of a bigger picture "highly automated network mo=
nitoring".

Regards,

Ruediger





Von: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Februar 2020 20:44
An: Geib, R=FCdiger <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>; ippm-chairs@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org
Betreff: RE: Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion

Hi Ruediger,

I like the general idea that using pre-determined paths in SR to collect pe=
rformance metrics. I think this approach provides some unique benefits comp=
ared with the other approaches. It is also coincident with some of related =
research work I'm doing.
Here are some thoughts I have.

  1.  I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such probing =
packets. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in the draft and =
does more.
  2.  An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fully addressed is=
 the method to plan the optimal paths. There is a work called INT-PATH (htt=
ps://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529) which applies Eulerian Path algo=
rithm to find the minimum set of paths with network-wide coverage. However,=
 the problem here seems different: you need path coverage redundancy. My qu=
estion is: do we really need the redundancy to achieve the measurement goal=
? If so, what's the best planning algorithm should be? In a real and large =
scale network, we have constraint on where the probing device(s) can be pla=
ced, and we usually want to monitoring the entire network, so an efficient =
algorithm is necessary.

Best regards,
Haoyu

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de<mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM
To: ippm-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; ippm@ietf.org<mailto:ippm@ietf=
.org>
Subject: [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants,

I'm solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which allows to=
 detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are

  *   Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation r=
equired per monitored connection
  *   Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to IC=
MP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)
  *   Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding laye=
r, no other interaction with passed routers - in opposite to ICMP ping)
  *   Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver or=
 separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)

I'd be happy to present the draft in Vancouver.. If there's community inter=
est. Please read and comment.

You'll find slides at

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft=
-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.ou=
tlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fmeeting%2F105%2Fmater=
ials%2Fslides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00&data=
=3D02%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C4f7ef087db7046424e2508d7ba915817%=
7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637183005756536633&sdata=3D98D=
7jZDubbhdB3ext94tjEElItEBVyDUld6cQtND6O4%3D&reserved=3D0>

Draft url:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/<h=
ttps://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatrac=
ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring%2F&data=3D02%7=
C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C4f7ef087db7046424e2508d7ba915817%7C0fee8=
ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637183005756546590&sdata=3DsRAxvsAvs2=
nHOFme1%2FVZV%2FcFgvZ5AIFtFe5jInmfy7Q%3D&reserved=3D0>

Regards,

Ruediger

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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi <span lang=3D"DE">Haoyu,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">thanks for your remarks. Let me pick up your numberi=
ng<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo7">IOAM information could be added by a passed router, if there&#8217;s =
interest. The draft doesn&#8217;t exclude that. But that&#8217;s not in foc=
us either. I didn&#8217;t make up my mind, whether and which
 IOAM information may add value to such measurements. But that doesn&#8217;=
t preclude this discussion. I&#8217;d prefer any related information in a s=
eparate document (and happily add a reference, should there be one).<o:p></=
o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l=
4 level1 lfo7">The path set up chosen carries a design and it is optimized =
by the goal one monitored path/interface, one measurement path. It allows a=
ctive monitoring of connectivity, congestion
 location (queue depth) and delay at forwarding layer. The draft assumes a =
single outage only. I didn&#8217;t try to seize the same information with l=
ess measurements (I&#8217;m happy I found the solution shown in the draft).=
<br>
I agree that automated set up of large scale network monitoring measurement=
s is an important and related topic. I prefer to look at it as another buil=
ding block. I think, other optimized measurement path set ups may be used t=
o reach other monitoring goals (e.g.,
 just connectivity, just congestion location or just delays).<o:p></o:p></l=
i></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t want to overload this draft, even if c=
ontents are related. I&#8217;d be glad if it is a useful part of a bigger p=
icture &#8220;highly automated network monitoring&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ruediger<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"DE">Von:</span></b><span lang=3D"DE=
"> Haoyu Song &lt;haoyu.song@futurewei.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 27. Februar 2020 20:44<br>
<b>An:</b> Geib, R=FCdiger &lt;Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de&gt;; ippm-chairs@ie=
tf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> RE: Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ruediger,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the general idea that using pre-determined pa=
ths in SR to collect performance metrics. I think this approach provides so=
me unique benefits compared with the other approaches. It is also coinciden=
t with some of related research work
 I&#8217;m doing. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here are some thoughts I have.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l3 level1 =
lfo3">I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such probing =
packets. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in the draft and =
does more.
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso=
-list:l3 level1 lfo3">An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fu=
lly addressed is the method to plan the optimal paths. There is a work call=
ed INT-PATH (<a href=3D"https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529">https=
://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529</a>)
 which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths wit=
h network-wide coverage. However, the problem here seems different: you nee=
d path coverage redundancy. My question is: do we really need the redundanc=
y to achieve the measurement goal?
 If so, what&#8217;s the best planning algorithm should be? In a real and l=
arge scale network, we have constraint on where the probing device(s) can b=
e placed, and we usually want to monitoring the entire network, so an effic=
ient algorithm is necessary.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Haoyu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> ippm &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces=
@ietf.org">ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de">Ruediger.Ge=
ib@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ippm-chairs@ietf.org">ippm-chairs@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">
ippm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant=
s,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m solliciting interest in a new network moni=
toring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Impor=
tant properties are<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo6">Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation r=
equired per monitored connection<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo6">Adds detection and lo=
cation of congested interfaces as compared to ICMP ping (otherwise measured=
 metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo6">Requires Segme=
nt Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no other interact=
ion with passed routers &#8211; in opposite to ICMP ping)<o:p></o:p></li><l=
i class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lf=
o6">Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&amp;receiver =
or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)<o=
:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver=
.. If there&#8217;s community interest. Please read and comment.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You&#8217;ll find slides at &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outloo=
k.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fmeeting%2F105%2Fmaterials=
%2Fslides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00&amp;data=
=3D02%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C4f7ef087db7046424e2508d7ba915817%=
7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637183005756536633&amp;sdata=
=3D98D7jZDubbhdB3ext94tjEElItEBVyDUld6cQtND6O4%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-i=
ppm-connectivity-monitoring-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Draft url:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outloo=
k.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-geib-ippm-con=
nectivity-monitoring%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C4=
f7ef087db7046424e2508d7ba915817%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%=
7C637183005756546590&amp;sdata=3DsRAxvsAvs2nHOFme1%2FVZV%2FcFgvZ5AIFtFe5jIn=
mfy7Q%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm=
-connectivity-monitoring/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ruediger<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_FRXPR01MB039288C4BAAB48BB326361A09CE70FRXPR01MB0392DEUP_--


From nobody Mon Mar  2 08:00:41 2020
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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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On 2/3/20 11:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> What follows has been made clear on the list for a while,
> I am re-stating it.
> 
> The draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming PSP behavior
> strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
>       RFC8200 section 4 says:
> 
>       Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
> *processed, inserted, or deleted* by any node along a packet's delivery
>       path, until the packet reaches *the node* (or each of the set of 
> nodes,
>       in the case of multicast) *identified in the Destination Address 
> field*
> * of the IPv6 header.*

That is certainly not the intended behavior of RFC8200.

In fact, you may see that Appendix B says:

    o  Clarified that extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop
       Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any
       node along a packet's delivery path.


and the routing headers (Section 4.4) are specified as:

    The Routing header is used by an IPv6 source to list one or more
    intermediate nodes to be "visited" on the way to a packet's
    destination.


As it may be obvious, teh wording in RFC8200 is indeed prone to 
confusion, and hence should be fixed (this is not the only bug in the 
EH-processing part of RFC8200, as noted by Brian, myself, and others).

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:09:43 +0100
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To: Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>,  IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [spring] Updates to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt
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Dear Rakesh,
my apologies for the belated response and comments that you can find below:

   - as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode,
   mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP
   protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is
   described in the informational text only, I think that the Informational
   track is more appropriate for this specification.
   - I with the introduction of the Control Code field you propose the
   update to the STAMP base test packet defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp
   <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/>. How the
   proposed change benefits STAMP protocol? As I understand, the Control Co=
de
   field is introduced only for the benefit of the mechanism you propose fo=
r
   the Segment Routing. Does it have broader applicability? Why not use the
   accepted by IPPM WG STAMP extension model and use TLV?
   - also, the update introduces Loss Measurement Query Message Formats
   and Loss Measurement Response Message Formats for STAMP, which are the
   changes to draft-ietf-ippm-stamp, which has already been approved by IES=
G
   for publication. I couldn't find the explanation of why these mechanisms
   cannot use the extension mechanism already accepted by IPPM WG for STAMP=
,
   TLVs, as has been done for Direct Loss Measurement. I hope the authors w=
ill
   expand on the rationale of introducing new constructs in the STAMP base
   specification instead of using the TLV-based extension mechanism.

And in connection to my comments related to the proposed changes in STAMP
is the question to SPRING and IPPM WGs Chairs:

   - the authors of the draft have changed the title to reflect the change
   in the scope of the draft.  Now the draft updates not only informational
   document that was produced by IPMM WG but the standards track document. =
I
   think that though Chairs of IPPM and SPRING WGs had discussed where to
   anchor this specification, the change in scope may be significant enough=
 to
   require another round. Alternatively, changes to STAMP protocol may be t=
he
   basis for the new draft that, preferably, be anchored in the WG that is
   actively working on defining the STAMP specification and the mechanism t=
o
   extend STAMP functionalities.


Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:30 PM Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi WG,
> We have posted a revised draft with the following updates:
>
>    - Added control-code field (similar to RFC 6374)
>    - Added Node-Address TLV (e.g. destination-address) =E2=80=93 to carry=
 the
>    intended recipient of the probe query when using 127/8 address
>    - Added Return Address in the Return Path TLV =E2=80=93 to send reply =
to other
>    than source-address
>    - Added SR Policy with different endpoint addresses
>    - Various editorial changes
>
>
>
> Welcome your review comments and suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rakesh (on behalf of authors)
>
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-12-05, 1:48 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org"
> <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>     A new version of I-D, draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt
>
>     has been successfully submitted by Rakesh Gandhi and posted to the
>
>     IETF repository.
>
>
>
>     Name:                              draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
>
>     Revision:          05
>
>     Title:                  Performance Measurement Using TWAMP Light for
> Segment Routing Networks
>
>     Document date:           2019-12-05
>
>     Group:                              Individual Submission
>
>     Pages:                               30
>
>     URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.tx=
t
>
>     Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm/
>
>     Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05
>
>     Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
>
>     Diff:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05
>
>
>
>     Abstract:
>
>        Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  SR is
>
>        applicable to both Multiprotocol Label Switching (SR-MPLS) and IPv=
6
>
>        (SRv6) data planes.  This document specifies procedure for sending
>
>        and processing probe query and response messages for Performance
>
>        Measurement (PM) in Segment Routing networks.  The procedure uses
> the
>
>        mechanisms defined in RFC 5357 (Two-Way Active Measurement Protoco=
l
>
>        (TWAMP) Light) and Simple Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
> (STAMP)
>
>        for Delay Measurement, and also uses the mechanisms defined in thi=
s
>
>        document for Loss Measurement.  The procedure specified is
> applicable
>
>        to SR-MPLS and SRv6 data planes and are used for both links and
>
>        end-to-end SR Policies.
>
>
>
>     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
>
>     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>
>
>     The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--00000000000002f085059fe16b36
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Rakesh,<div>my apologies for the belated response and=
 comments that you can find below:</div><div><ul><li>as I understand, the d=
raft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, mentioned in the informational Appe=
ndix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not=
 a standard but its idea is described in the informational text only, I thi=
nk that the Informational track is more appropriate for this specification.=
</li><li>I with the introduction of the Control Code field you propose the =
update to the STAMP base test packet defined in <a href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/">draft-ietf-ippm-stamp</a>. How the=
 proposed change benefits STAMP protocol? As I understand, the Control Code=
 field is introduced only for the benefit of the mechanism you propose for =
the Segment Routing. Does it have broader applicability? Why not use the ac=
cepted by IPPM WG STAMP extension model and use TLV?</li><li>also, the upda=
te introduces=C2=A0Loss Measurement Query Message Formats and=C2=A0Loss Mea=
surement Response Message Formats for STAMP, which are the changes to draft=
-ietf-ippm-stamp, which has already been approved by IESG for publication. =
I couldn&#39;t find the explanation of why these mechanisms cannot use the =
extension mechanism already accepted by IPPM WG for STAMP, TLVs, as has bee=
n done for Direct Loss Measurement. I hope the authors will expand on the r=
ationale of introducing new constructs in the STAMP base specification inst=
ead of using the TLV-based extension mechanism.</li></ul><div>And in connec=
tion to my comments related to the proposed changes in STAMP is the questio=
n to SPRING and IPPM WGs Chairs:</div></div><div><ul><li>the authors of the=
 draft have changed the title to reflect the change in the scope of the dra=
ft.=C2=A0 Now the draft updates not only informational document that was pr=
oduced by IPMM WG but the standards track document. I think that though Cha=
irs of IPPM and SPRING WGs had discussed where to anchor this specification=
, the change in scope may be significant enough to require another round. A=
lternatively, changes to STAMP protocol may be the basis for the new draft =
that, preferably, be anchored in the WG that is actively working on definin=
g the STAMP specification and the mechanism to extend STAMP functionalities=
.</li></ul><div><br></div></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, J=
an 31, 2020 at 10:30 PM Rakesh Gandhi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgandhi.ietf@gm=
ail.com">rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-=
family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">Hi WG,</font></span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">We have pos=
ted a revised draft with the following updates:</font></span></div><div>




















<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm" type=3D"disc"><li style=3D"m=
argin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><fon=
t size=3D"2"><span>Added control-code field (similar to RFC 6374)<span></sp=
an></span></font></span></li><li style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span>Added Node-Ad=
dress TLV (e.g. destination-address)
     =E2=80=93 to carry the intended recipient of the probe query when usin=
g 127/8
     address<span></span></span></font></span></li><li style=3D"margin:0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"=
2"><span>Added Return Address in the Return Path TLV =E2=80=93 to
     send reply to other than source-address</span></font></span></li><li s=
tyle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-se=
rif"><font size=3D"2"><span>Added SR Policy with different endpoint address=
es<br></span></font></span></li><li style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span>Various ed=
itorial changes<span></span></span></font></span></li></ul>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>=C2=A0</span></sp=
an></font></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>Welcome your revi=
ew comments and suggestions.</span></span></font></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdan=
a,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>Thanks,</span></span></font></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>Rakesh (on=
 behalf of authors)<br></span></span></font></span></p>





</div><div><br></div><div>


















<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><a name=3D"m_-1460735778185834878__MailOriginal">=EF=BB=BFOn 2019-1=
2-05, 1:48 PM,
&quot;internet-drafts@ietf.org&quot; &lt;internet-drafts@ietf.org&gt; wrote=
:<span></span></a></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span><=
/span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>A new version of I-D,
draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>has been successfully submitt=
ed by Rakesh
Gandhi and posted to the<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>IETF repository.<span></span>=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Name:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Revision:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>05<span></span></span></p=
>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Title:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Performance
Measurement Using TWAMP Light for Segment Routing Networks<span></span></sp=
an></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Document date:<span>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>2019-12-05<span>=
</span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Group:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 </span>Individual
Submission<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Pages:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>30<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>URL:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-=
twamp-srpm-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/d=
raft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Status:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twam=
p-srpm/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-sp=
ring-twamp-srpm/</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Htmlized: <span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Htmlized:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring=
-twamp-srpm" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Diff:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-gandhi-spring-t=
wamp-srpm-05" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-g=
andhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Abstract:<span></span></span>=
</p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Segment Rou=
ting (SR) leverages the
source routing paradigm.<span>=C2=A0 </span>SR is<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>applicable =
to both Multiprotocol Label
Switching (SR-MPLS) and IPv6<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>(SRv6) data=
 planes.<span>=C2=A0 </span>This document specifies procedure for sending<s=
pan></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>and process=
ing probe query and response
messages for Performance<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Measurement=
 (PM) in Segment Routing
networks.<span>=C2=A0 </span>The procedure uses the<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>mechanisms =
defined in RFC 5357 (Two-Way
Active Measurement Protocol<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>(TWAMP) Lig=
ht) and Simple Two-Way Active
Measurement Protocol (STAMP)<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>for Delay M=
easurement, and also uses the
mechanisms defined in this<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>document fo=
r Loss Measurement.<span>=C2=A0 </span>The procedure specified is applicabl=
e<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>to SR-MPLS =
and SRv6 data planes and are
used for both links and<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>end-to-end =
SR Policies.<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Please note that it may take =
a couple of
minutes from the time of submission<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>until the htmlized version an=
d diff are
available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf=
.org</a>.<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The IETF Secretariat<span></s=
pan></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span><span></span></p>





</div></div>
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 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
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From nobody Mon Mar  2 08:32:58 2020
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hello, Bruno,

On 2/3/20 10:19, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
[....]
>>> ===============
>>> 
>>> A) PSP [1] & RFC 8200 [2]
>>> 
>>> ===============
>>> 
>>> This point is whether SRH removal by the penultimate SR end point
>>> (aka PSP) is allowed by RFC 8200.
>>> 
>>> More specifically
>>> 
>>> " S14.4.Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain"
>>> 
>>> Vs
>>> 
>>> "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are
>>> not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's
>>> delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the
>>> set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the
>>> Destination Address field of the IPv6 header."
>>> 
>>> On this text, what is been discussed is "the node (or each of the
>>> set of nodes,
>>> 
>>> in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address
>>> field
>>> 
>>> of the IPv6 header."
>>> 
>>> More specifically whether "Destination Address field of the IPv6
>>> header" means the "final Destination Address" or the "Destination
>>> Address" as seen in the packet that the node received.
>> 
>> If it meant "Destination Address", that would mean multicast
>> addresses, would be allowed in routing headers.
> 
> I don't think so. I'll try to reorganize the sentence to try to
> highlight the point:
> 
> until the packet reaches the node identified in the Destination
> Address field of the IPv6 header. (or each of the set of nodes
> [identified by that Destination Address] ,in the case of multicast)
> 
> In the case that we are discussing, there is one single node,
> identified by the Destination Address. This is not multicast.
> 
>> Do you think htat's the case?

The PSP has two non-compliant behaviors:

1) EH removal:

In order to claim that IPv6 supports en-route EH insertion/removal, it
should address the issues that would introduce with:
* pmtud
* ipsec ah
* error reporting

And it doesn't. i.e., not only it was never the intent for ipv6 to
support eh insertion/removal, but also clearly couldn't do it without
addressing these three issues.



>> [...]
>>> Finally, the responsible AD has not accepted the related errata. 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/
>>
>>
>>> 
The status of this erratum is found here:
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933   -- not on the
>> mailing-list archive. And the erratum is marked as "reported", not
>> as "rejected".
>> 
>> Suresh may well go ahead and reject it. BUt so far the status has
>> not changed since I've reported it.
> 
> The email from Suresh seems crystal clear, including to you given
> your reaction. Even after you said you would appeal, Suresh said that
> he were standing by his decision. " > As such, I will formally Appeal
> your decision. Please do go ahead. I stand by my assessment that this
> is a misuse of the Errata process and it is not a simple
> clarification as you claim."
> 
> 
> Also, I have never sent that the errata was rejected. Please don't
> put words in my mouth. I said "not accepted".
> 
> Finally, the errata status has now change. So what's you point, now?

My point is that, as part of declaring consensus on the network
programming draft, you based such decision (dismissing the non-compliant
behavior of PSP) on a fact that had not taken place. That doesn't seem
correct.



[...]
>> 
>> Clearly, there was no "threat". I did indicate that one of our
>> specs was being violated, and that our processes were being
>> circumvented (in the same way that I'm quite curious how you can
>> claim consensus on this document, but.. ).  That says, appeals are
>> part of our processes.
>> 
>> I have no idea whatsoever how, sticking to our processes could be 
>> considered a threat.
> 
> I used the wording from the official shepherd write up. " (10) Has
> anyone threatened an appeal" 
> https://www.ietf.org/chairs/document-writeups/document-writeup-working-group-documents/
>
>  I you have an issue with this term, please raise it to the IESG.

My bad -- I didn't remember the sheperd's write-up had such question.


> 
> I fully agree that appeal is part of the process (so does errata). I
> would go further that IMHO this is definitely a required part of the
> process. Making an appeal is your right. I don't want discourage or
> encourage you do use it in any way.

Agreed.



[...]
>>> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with
>>> regards to the benefit of PSP.
>>> 
>>> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization.
>>> Judging its level of usefulness is very hardware and
>>> implementation dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed"
>>> to "required for my platform" (deployed if you are network
>>> operator, or been sold if you are a vendor), with possible
>>> intermediate points along "n% packet processing gain", or
>>> "required when combined with a specific other feature". I don't
>>> think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of 
>>> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the
>>> hardwares).
>> 
>> Am I reading correctly? Are you kind of stating that the same
>> working group that is shipoing this document doesn't have enough of
>> a clue to analyze the benefits (or lack thereof) of PSP?
>> 
>> And, because of that, you make the assessment yourself?
> 
> On the mailing list, multiple persons stated that it was implemented
> in their implementation or useful for their deployment. I'm saying
> that the performance gain cannot be evaluated by the working group.

How can a working group ship a document it cannot evaluate?

If you're saying that the wg doesn't have the skills to evaluate a
document it is shipping, what's the value in your statement that this
document has wg consensus?

Seriously.... it is the wg shipping the document, not a vendor (at least
formally speaking).




>> From a logical standpoint, to prove that this is useful, it's
>> enough to have one implementation/deployment case to benefit from
>> it. This has been stated on the mailing list.
> To prove that this is not useful, one need to prove that this is not
> useful some any one/any case. This is much harder. No one has even
> tried to make that demonstration.

This is *terrible* reasoning. Really. To an extent that I'm even 
surprised that you're saying it.

Several folks have raised questions on the need for PSP, which the 
authors *failed* to respond or address.

If you want to ship a document, you should at least be able to make a 
case for it.



>>> ===============
>>> 
>>> I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23
>>> contributors).
>>> 
>>> Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on
>>> the text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email
>>> alias, this would not be ideal for me to take the decision to
>>> forward this document to the IESG. I've discussed this with our
>>> AD (Martin) and he agreed to make the formal decision to send the
>>> document to the next level. Thank you Martin.
>> 
>> Indeed, this could be seen as a possible conflict of interests.
> 
> That's why both myself and Martin have stated that the decision would
> be taken my Martin.

Weren't you the one declaring consensus on this document? Weren't you 
the one preparing the shepherd's write up?




> That been said, "conflict of interest" is about "interest". I'm not
> working for a vendor who may have an interest to push, or delay or
> stop a work based on it's hardware and software capability. I'm not
> working for an operator who is deploying it. My only interest would
> be to be listed as an contributor on a document. Really? I'm fine
> with been removed from the list of contributors. I have not proposed
> that because doing so would be borderline with regards to IPR
> declaration, and could be seen an trying to hide this. Trying very
> hard to see a remote conflict of interest, it would be to slow down
> SRv6 to avoid the competitors of my employer to use it. So quite the
> opposite direction.

I'll repeat: conflict of interest refers to a situation where you're 
"judge" and "part" at the same time. It doesn't argue that you have or 
will be intentionally benefiting from such position.

Normally, such situations are avoided, because probing one thing or 
another is, unfortunately, materially impossible,

So that's what my clarification was about. I would have made the same 
comment if someone had flagged the same situation for any other 
document, and a co-author/contributor was shepherding the document or 
calling consensus.

As noted, I disagree with your declaring of consensus to move this 
document forward. But I provided a rationale for my disagreement, and 
never linked the outcome of the consensus call to the aforementioned 
conflict of interest.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




From nobody Mon Mar  2 08:34:39 2020
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 08:33:55 -0800
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear Mr Decraene,
At 04:48 AM 02-03-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>I would suggest that next time you want the communication to be 
>public, you start it on the public mailing list, so that the whole 
>WG is aware of the whole thread.
>(Note that this would not change the text in my email)

I sent an email to the Working Group Chairs.  That email was copied 
to spring@ietf.org.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy  


From nobody Mon Mar  2 08:47:51 2020
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Pablo Camarillo Garvia
                          John Leddy
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Zhenbin Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-02

Abstract:
   The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
   an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
   encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.

   Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
   network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.

   This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
   specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
   interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
   Agreements).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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--_000_F8F9D2D459494486A44428F25937B461ciscocom_--


From nobody Mon Mar  2 09:14:10 2020
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To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 14:13:55 -0300
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On 2/3/20 11:16, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
[...]
>> The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the
>> Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".  I
>> took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".  As
>> the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG
>> Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate.
> 
> The email from Suresh that I had cited in support of my statement, seemed and still seems clear to me.
> 
> What was not clear to you in Suresh's email?
> 
>>   I will process this and move it to the "Hold for Document Update" state
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/tRn94-NlupHLcWdzo7O9BfHpiik/
> 
>>> Just to be clear, I believe that your stated decision of processing this errata as "Hold for document update" is not only incorrect, but also doesn't represent the consensus this working group got during the rfc2460bis effort -- now RFC8200.
> [...]
>>   > As such, I will formally Appeal your decision.
>>
>> Please do go ahead. I stand by my assessment that this is a misuse of the Errata process and it is not a simple clarification as you claim."
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/
> 
> 
> Please take another look now. Suresh has updated the status of the errata. I guess that your point is now moot.

It's not moot that you based your decision on wg consensus on something 
that had not yet happened. The fact that the errata was marked as "held 
for document update" days *after* you made your decision should be a 
datapoint.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
CC: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:    WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear S Moonesamy,

> From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 5:34 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
> Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux; Rob Shakir; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC =
- draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Decraene,
> At 04:48 AM 02-03-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> >I would suggest that next time you want the communication to be=20
> >public, you start it on the public mailing list, so that the whole=20
> >WG is aware of the whole thread.
> >(Note that this would not change the text in my email)
>=20
> I sent an email to the Working Group Chairs.  That email was copied=20
> to spring@ietf.org.

On my side, the header from your email is the following:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]=20
> > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 8:53 PM
> > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Rob Shakir
> > Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux
> > Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGL=
C - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >=20
> > Dear Working Group Chairs,
> >=20
> > [Cc trimmed]
> >=20

I'm not seeing the WG in copy.
I've checked the public email archive [1] and could not find your above ema=
il. Given the number of emails, there is a possibility that I'm missing it.=
 In order to make your point, it seems easy for you to provide the URL for =
the above email. That would close the point.

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/

Regards,
--Bruno

> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy=20=20

___________________________________________________________________________=
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>,  Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Thread-Index: AQHV8LX7lTQEKCWmA0+6/QqEil9vGag1iwHQ
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:28:46 +0000
Message-ID: <15096_1583170126_5E5D424E_15096_398_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD5E43@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <C8417F71-D61E-42AC-831E-B85269D5D4A5@steffann.nl> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <23625_1583158579_5E5D1533_23625_379_8_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD5266@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <4eb1e184-31ad-41c9-ded3-5aa7fb89ef96@gont.com.ar>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/O4lnAzaBCxAnO7k9S-RXLgTa940>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear Mr Decraene,
At 09:14 AM 02-03-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>On my side, the header from your email is the following:
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 8:53 PM
> > > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Rob Shakir
> > > Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux
> > > Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move 
> forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

>I'm not seeing the WG in copy.
>I've checked the public email archive [1] and could not find your 
>above email. Given the number of emails, there is a possibility that 
>I'm missing it. In order to make your point, it seems easy for you 
>to provide the URL for the above email. That would close the point.

I didn't see the email in the archives.  I verified my original 
message headers and noticed that a comma was missing between the 
second email address and the third one for the "To:" header field:

Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Rob Shakir 
<robjs@google.com> spring@ietf.org

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 


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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On 2/3/20 14:28, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> Fernando,
> 
>> From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar]
>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 6:14 PM
>> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; S Moonesamy; Martin Vigoureux; Suresh Krishnan
>> Cc: spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> On 2/3/20 11:16, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the
>>>> Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".  I
>>>> took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".  As
>>>> the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG
>>>> Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate.
>>>
>>> The email from Suresh that I had cited in support of my statement, seemed and still seems clear to me.
>>>
>>> What was not clear to you in Suresh's email?
>>>
>>>>    I will process this and move it to the "Hold for Document Update" state
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/tRn94-NlupHLcWdzo7O9BfHpiik/
>>>
>>>>> Just to be clear, I believe that your stated decision of processing this errata as "Hold for document update" is not only incorrect, but also doesn't represent the consensus this working group got during the rfc2460bis effort -- now RFC8200.
>>> [...]
>>>>    > As such, I will formally Appeal your decision.
>>>>
>>>> Please do go ahead. I stand by my assessment that this is a misuse of the Errata process and it is not a simple clarification as you claim."
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/
>>>
>>>
>>> Please take another look now. Suresh has updated the status of the errata. I guess that your point is now moot.
>>
>> It's not moot that you based your decision on wg consensus on something
>> that had not yet happened. The fact that the errata was marked as "held
>> for document update" days *after* you made your decision should be a
>> datapoint.
> 
> That's indeed one data point.
> Another data point is that Suresh had stated his decision on the 6MAN mailing list before. That's _this_ decision that I explicitly referred to by providing the URL to this email.

That's a comment on a future decision,  not a decision that can be acted 
upon.

Simple: what would have happened if Suresh had changed his mind, and 
"verified" the erratum? -- You'd have a spring document that you claimed 
to have wg consensus based on an incorrect assumption.

i.e., the consensus outcome was sent based on an *assumption*, not on a 
decision.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
CC: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear S Moonesamy,=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 6:34 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
> Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux; Rob Shakir; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC =
- draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Dear Mr Decraene,
> At 09:14 AM 02-03-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> >On my side, the header from your email is the following:
> >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 8:53 PM
> > > > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Rob Shakir
> > > > Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux
> > > > Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move=20
> > forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

You have conveniently edited (again) my email to remove that specific sente=
nce of yours " > > [Cc trimmed]"
=20
> >I'm not seeing the WG in copy.
> >I've checked the public email archive [1] and could not find your=20
> >above email. Given the number of emails, there is a possibility that=20
> >I'm missing it. In order to make your point, it seems easy for you=20
> >to provide the URL for the above email. That would close the point.
>=20
> I didn't see the email in the archives.  I verified my original=20
> message headers and noticed that a comma was missing between the=20
> second email address and the third one for the "To:" header field:
>=20
> Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Rob Shakir=20
> <robjs@google.com> spring@ietf.org

Ok, this explains your original error.
Then at some point you've discovered your error and when replying you took =
the decision and performed the action to add the public mailing list. Doing=
 so you reposted to a group a message which was personally for you.
=20
Regards,
--Bruno

> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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From: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 12:09:29 -0600
Message-ID: <CAHzoHbu4k15xJ2mnwp=9Xa400gQBtBY=OaSh6sh3_8E_t30sdA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>,  "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ZhS7-Gi2N3ERebtWODy_F8i-8Bo>
Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Ketan,

Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 locators used in a domain
from a single block is optional.

However, assuming for the moment that a network operator has chosen to
allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a single block, so that
there is a well-defined value of B and N across a domain, what is the use
of having a router advertise its own understanding of these two values?
And what is a receiver supposed to do with this information?

Thanks,
Chris

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> Thanks fort the follow up.
>
> Clarification inline [Bruno]
>
>
>
> *From**:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM
> *To:* DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Chris Bowers
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psenak (ppsenak)
> *Subject:* RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Hi Bruno,
>
>
>
> I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well described and
> covered in the net-pgm draft as also the corresponding IGP extensions. Is
> the question is more about the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part of it (what i=
s not in the block
> part is in the node part as per the text in the net-pgm draft)?
>
>
>
> The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the fo=
llowing:
>
> Under
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5
> =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2 =E2=80=A6 look under SRGB f=
or SRv6
>
>
>
> [Bruno]
>
> To clarify, my question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but r=
elated to the
> usage, by the receiver, of the following piece of information:
>
>
>
>       LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length
>
>       LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length
>
>       Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length
>
>       Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length
>
>
>
>
>
> So perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for h=
im to clarify.
>
> [Bruno] I=E2=80=99ll leave this to Chris.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *
> bruno.decraene@orange.com
> *Sent:* 28 February 2020 14:34
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;
> Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; Peter Psenak
> (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org <lsr-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM
>
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since this is not a
> protocol specific thing.
>
>
>
> I believe the text in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clears
> says what locator block and locator node are. What more details do you
> think are required?
>
>
>
> [Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft could possibly clarify the
> usage of these information/fields by the receiver. Possibly using the sam=
e
> name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID Locator Block length) to ease the references
> between both drafts.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Bruno
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers
> *Sent:* 27 February 2020 22:46
> *To:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> SPRING and LSR WGs,
>
>
>
> I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator bloc=
k
> and locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  See original email below.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > LSR WG,
> >
> > Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the  SRv6
> > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the
> > locator block length and the locator node length.  The text refers to
> > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these
> > concepts.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator
> > node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1
> > which has the following text:
> >
> >     A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the SRv6 SID block
> >     (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operator) and N is the
> >     identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID..
> >
> > I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator
> > block and locator node.
>
> sure, but that would be in the
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol
> specific constructs.
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>
>
>
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electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>
>
>
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________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
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> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
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--000000000000ac4d17059fe3203d
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Ketan,</div><div><br></div><div>Based on current docu=
ments, allocating all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a single block is=
 optional.</div><div><br></div><div>However, assuming for the moment that a=
 network operator has chosen to=20
allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a single block, so that th=
ere is a well-defined value of B and N across a domain, what is the use of =
having a router advertise its own understanding of these two values?=C2=A0 =
And what is a receiver supposed to do with this information?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Chris<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"FR">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-4664080705648584948WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Ketan,<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Thanks fort the follow up.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Clarification inline [Bruno]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span class=3D"gmail-m_=
-4664080705648584948SpellE"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From</span></b></span><b><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
>:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Chris Bowers<=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a>; SPRING WG List; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psena=
k (ppsenak)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi=
 Bruno,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">I =
believe the description and usage of Locator is very well described and cov=
ered in the net-pgm draft as also the corresponding IGP
 extensions. Is the question is more about the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part=
 of it (what is not in the block part is in the node part as per the text i=
n the net-pgm draft)?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Th=
e =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the follow=
ing:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Un=
der
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head=
er-26#section-5" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#secti=
on-5</a> =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><a=
 href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2</a> =E2=80=A6 look under SRGB =
for SRv6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"E=
N-IN"></span></i></b><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-IN">[B=
runo]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-IN">=
To clarify, my question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but rel=
ated to the usage,
 by the receiver, of the following piece of information:<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang=3D"=
EN-US"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang=3D"=
EN-US"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang=3D"=
EN-US"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang=3D"=
EN-US"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-IN">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">So=
 perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for him t=
o clarify.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-IN">=
[Bruno] I=E2=80=99ll leave this to Chris.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Th=
anks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ke=
tan</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bounce=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"=
_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28 February 2020 14:34<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a>; SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Pe=
ter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">Hi Ketan,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:70.8pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr [=
<a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lsr-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM</span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi=
 Chris,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">I =
agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since this is not a protoc=
ol specific thing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">I =
believe the text in
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clea=
rs says what locator block and locator node are. What more details do you t=
hink are required?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">[Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft c=
ould possibly clarify the usage of these information/fields by the receiver=
. Possibly using the same
 name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID Locator Block length) to ease the references betw=
een both drafts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">--Bruno<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Th=
anks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ke=
tan</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bounce=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Bowers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 February 2020 22:46<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a>; SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-exten=
sions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SP=
RING and LSR WGs,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">I =
think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator block an=
d locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or draf=
t-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.=C2=A0
 See original email below.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Th=
anks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ch=
ris<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">On=
 Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:<br>
&gt; LSR WG,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the=C2=A0 =
SRv6 <br>
&gt; SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the =
<br>
&gt; locator block length and the locator node length.=C2=A0 The text refer=
s to <br>
&gt; [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these=
 <br>
&gt; concepts.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator =
<br>
&gt; node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1 <=
br>
&gt; which has the following text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the =
SRv6 SID block<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operato=
r) and N is the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID=
..<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator <=
br>
&gt; block and locator node.<br>
<br>
sure, but that would be in the <br>
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in <br>
draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol <br>
specific constructs.<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Chris<br>
&gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">_________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent =
contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent don=
c<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sa=
ns autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signa=
ler<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi q=
ue les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;=
alteration,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce=
 message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">This message and its attachments may cont=
ain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">they should not be distributed, used or c=
opied without authorisation.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">If you have received this email in error,=
 please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<u></=
u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">As emails may be altered, Orange is not l=
iable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</pre></div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000ac4d17059fe3203d--


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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear IESG,

I sent a message to the SPRING Working Group Chairs.  The reply which 
I received from a person who is listed as one of the SPRING Working 
Group Chairs contains the following footer:

   "This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
    information that may be protected by law;
    they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
    If you have received this email in error, please notify the 
sender and delete this
    message and its attachments.
    As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that 
have been modified,
    changed or falsified."

 From what I understand, the IESG position on automated disclaimers 
was that they are not applicable within the context of BCP 9.  Was 
there a change to that?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

At 10:06 AM 02-03-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>Dear S Moonesamy,
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 6:34 PM
> > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
> > Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux; Rob Shakir; spring@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move 
> forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >
> > Dear Mr Decraene,
> > At 09:14 AM 02-03-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> > >On my side, the header from your email is the following:
> > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 8:53 PM
> > > > > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Rob Shakir
> > > > > Cc: Warren Kumari; Martin Vigoureux
> > > > > Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move
> > > forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>You have conveniently edited (again) my email to remove that 
>specific sentence of yours " > > [Cc trimmed]"
>
> > >I'm not seeing the WG in copy.
> > >I've checked the public email archive [1] and could not find your
> > >above email. Given the number of emails, there is a possibility that
> > >I'm missing it. In order to make your point, it seems easy for you
> > >to provide the URL for the above email. That would close the point.
> >
> > I didn't see the email in the archives.  I verified my original
> > message headers and noticed that a comma was missing between the
> > second email address and the third one for the "To:" header field:
> >
> > Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Rob Shakir
> > <robjs@google.com> spring@ietf.org
>
>Ok, this explains your original error.
>Then at some point you've discovered your error and when replying 
>you took the decision and performed the action to add the public 
>mailing list. Doing so you reposted to a group a message which was 
>personally for you.
>
>Regards,
>--Bruno
>
> > Regards,
> > S. Moonesamy
>
>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations 
>confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous 
>avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les 
>messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, 
>deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or 
>privileged information that may be protected by law;
>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender 
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>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that 
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>Thank you.


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To: spring@ietf.org
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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WG,

as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating 
consensus for this WG LC.

I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that 
disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text 
of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an 
optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I 
have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by 
the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.

My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to 
move this document to the next stage.

Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.


Martin


[1] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
[2] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
[3] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/

Le 2019-12-05  18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a crit:
> Hello SPRING,
> 
> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on 
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
> 
> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, 
> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
> 
> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not 
> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are 
> only spring specifics.
> 
> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated 
> on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point.
> 
> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and 
> that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into 
> parallel independent discussions)
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Bruno
> 
> [1] 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> 
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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On March 2, 2020 at 1:21:25 PM, S Moonesamy wrote:

[Changed the subject to better reflect the topic and for easier tracking.]


SM:

Hi! =C2=A0How are you?

> I sent a message to the SPRING Working Group Chairs. The reply which
> I received from a person who is listed as one of the SPRING Working
> Group Chairs contains the following footer:
>
> "This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed,
> used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that
> have been modified, changed or falsified."
>
> From what I understand, the IESG position on automated disclaimers
> was that they are not applicable within the context of BCP 9. Was
> there a change to that?

I looked at BCP 9, but didn't find anything related to your question.
If I missed it, please point me in the right direction. =C2=A0I think you
may be referring to BCP 78.

Specifically, rfc5378 (Rights Contributors Provide to the IETF Trust) reads=
:

=C2=A0 =C2=A05.2. =C2=A0Confidentiality Obligations

=C2=A0 =C2=A0No information or document that is subject to any requirement =
of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0confidentiality or any restriction on its dissemination may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0submitted as a Contribution or otherwise considered in any par=
t of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the IETF Standards Process, and there must be no assumption of=
 any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0confidentiality obligation with respect to any Contribution. =
=C2=A0Each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Contributor agrees that any statement in a Contribution, wheth=
er
=C2=A0 =C2=A0generated automatically or otherwise, that states or implies t=
hat the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Contribution is confidential or subject to any privilege, can =
be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disregarded for all purposes, and will be of no force or effec=
t.


Note that this section is clearly only talking about statements in a
Contribution (I pasted the definition of "Contribution" below, from
the same RFC).

If you have other general questions or concerns about this topic, it
might be more productive to separate them into their own thread.

Regards,

Alvaro.



>From rfc5378/=C2=A71:

a. "Contribution": any submission to the IETF intended by the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Contributor for publication as all or part of an Internet-Draf=
t or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC (except for RFC Editor Contributions described in Section =
4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0below) and any statement made within the context of an IETF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0activity. =C2=A0Such statements include oral statements in IET=
F
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sessions as well as written and electronic communications, mad=
e at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0any time or place, that are addressed to:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o the IETF plenary session,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o any IETF working group or portion thereof,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o any Birds of a Feather (BOF) session,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o the IAB, or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0working group or design team list, or any other list fu=
nctioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0under IETF auspices,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function (except for R=
FC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Editor Contributions, as described in Section 4 below).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list, or o=
ther
=C2=A0 =C2=A0function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0activity, group, or function are not IETF Contributions in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0context of this document.


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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
References: <39544C17-1AD0-412E-A8BD-E17376537FCF@cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf9d68e6-cbae-2b19-11e0-1e452f0bf654@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Darren,

Regardless of whether you accept Fernando's comment about the intention o=
f RFC 8200, there is also the fact that the description of the PSP flavor=
 cheats by considering the packet to have
 (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP node's ad=
dress).
In fact that is *never* the state of the packet on the wire, which is eit=
her
 (Segments Left =3D=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP node's ad=
dress)
or
 (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D the final node's =
address)

OK, maybe it's not cheating, maybe it's only a side effect of the pseudoc=
ode, but the fact is that the test "S14.1.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) =
{" in section 4.16.1 is very confusing because it's applied to a packet t=
hat is half way through processing of the routing header (Segments Left h=
as been updated, but Destination Address has not been updated). This make=
s it very unclear how the spec is claiming to interpret RFC 8200.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 03-Mar-20 03:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> What follows has been made clear on the list for a while,=C2=A0
> I am re-stating it.
>=20
> The draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming PSP behavior=C2=A0
> strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
> =C2=A0
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC8200 section 4 says:
> =C2=A0
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Option=
s header) are not
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0*processed, inserted, or deleted*=C2=A0by any =
node along a packet's delivery
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0path, until the packet reaches=C2=A0*the node*=
=C2=A0(or each of the set of nodes,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0in the case of multicast)=C2=A0*identified in =
the Destination Address field*
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0*=C2=A0of the IPv6 header.*
> =C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> The processing, insertion and deletion restrictions only apply=C2=A0
> =E2=80=9Cuntil the packet reaches the node identified in the Destinatio=
n
> Address field of the IPv6 header=E2=80=9D.
> =C2=A0
> At the penuptimate segment of the segment list, the endpoint IS
> =E2=80=9Cthe node identified in the Destination Address field of the IP=
v6
> header=E2=80=9D and hence the PSP operation programmed by the source SR=
=C2=A0
> node strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> =C2=A0 Darren
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


From nobody Mon Mar  2 11:37:45 2020
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To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, spring@ietf.org
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9c8a169-d7af-37ea-410f-5cdffb5fb482@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:37:38 +1300
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/1kPMfQIRhf7EoOqA_3jtmo6dbt4>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Martin,

On 03-Mar-20 07:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> WG,
>=20
> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating=20
> consensus for this WG LC.
>=20
> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that=20
> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text =

> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an=20
> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, =
I=20
> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent b=
y=20
> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>=20
> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to=20
> move this document to the next stage.

I am amazed by this statement, coming before we have had time to digest t=
he changes
in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11. I think it's highly pre=
mature.

   Brian

>=20
> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>=20
>=20
> Martin
>=20
>=20
> [1]=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcs=
o/
> [2]=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ=
0/
> [3]=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKB=
c/
>=20
> Le 2019-12-05 =C3=A0 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0=
:
>> Hello SPRING,
>>
>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on=20
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>
>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,=
=20
>> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 2=
0.
>>
>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not=20
>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are=
=20
>> only spring specifics.
>>
>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed=20
>> on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this p=
oint.
>>
>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd=20
>> that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into=
=20
>> parallel independent discussions)
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>> [1]=20
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
-05
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
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es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
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To: 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>, spring@ietf.org
References: <158316766042.27491.6362616323350274756@ietfa.amsl.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11.txt
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The explanations added to section 4.16.1 "PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH" certainly help. However, there is still no explanation of how this section is reconciled with RFC 8200. Whether the reader agrees with that reconciliation or not is a separate matter, but I fail to see how this draft could progress to IETF Last Call without such an explanation.

See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Xrcclo0s4pnug9upG9rUinYMv1I/

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 03-Mar-20 05:47, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.
> 
>         Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
>         Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                           Pablo Camarillo Garvia
>                           John Leddy
>                           Daniel Voyer
>                           Satoru Matsushima
>                           Zhenbin Li
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 39
> 	Date            : 2020-03-02
> 
> Abstract:
>    The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
>    an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
>    encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.
> 
>    Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
>    network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.
> 
>    This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
>    specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
>    interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
>    Agreements).
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/
> 
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> 
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> 


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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 20:02:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Hi Bruno,

>> Wait, what?!  There is no "we needed to advance this document" in the =
IETF or any other consensus based forum...
>=20
> By advance this document, I meant start the WG LC. Which is about =
collecting comments on the document.

I think you are confused. This document has been in WG LC since =
December=E2=80=A6 I think many of us read "advance this document" as =
"declare consensus on WG LC".

> The situation is that there was and is a single chair. I'm personally =
ok to not proceed with any adoption call or last call while there is no =
other co-chair. Note that my AD never asked for this.

I'm glad you confirm that no consensus has been declared. That seems the =
appropriate state at the moment.

>> Based on the discussions on the mailing list (including questions on =
why PSP is so important that we can't take it out for now which have =
never been clearly answered by the authors) I can't see you can possibly =
declare consensus.
>>=20
>> If there is going to be an appeal I will certainly put my signature =
on it.
>=20
> This is you right to appeal to the IESG.

Now that we know that consensus hasn't been declared and the document is =
still in LC I think appealing would be premature :)

> Note that appealing to the IESG is exactly what I'm proposing to do =
with regards to the reading of RFC 8200.

Getting that feedback would indeed be helpful.

Cheers!
Sander


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To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Hi,

> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to =
move this document to the next stage.

Declare consensus immediately after a new version is published and =
people haven't even had the change to read it?

NO, just NO

Sander


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Hi Alvaro,
At 11:09 AM 02-03-2020, Alvaro Retana wrote:
>[Changed the subject to better reflect the topic and for easier tracking.]

Thanks.

>Hi!  How are you?

I am okay.

>I looked at BCP 9, but didn't find anything related to your question.
>If I missed it, please point me in the right direction.  I think you
>may be referring to BCP 78.

Sorry for not being clear.  The process as defined in BCP 9 is 
expected to be transparent.  There is also a statement about 
"transparent operation".

>Note that this section is clearly only talking about statements in a
>Contribution (I pasted the definition of "Contribution" below, from
>the same RFC).

BCP 78 is about the IPR aspects and, as you pointed out, a 
"Contribution".  I prefer not to ask questions about the latter as I 
have participated in the discussions about the relevant RFC and I can 
guess what the persons who participated in the discussions would say.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 


From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:16:19 2020
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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Martin,

On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> WG,
> 
> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating 
> consensus for this WG LC.

This is more and more confusing, seriously.

Bruno did the WGLC, and also communicated the outcome of the WGLC in 
first person, and now you state that it's you evaluating WGLC??

For instance.. what's this note in: 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/
"As an element of context, I handled this WG LC not for the fun of it or 
because I believed it would easy, but because we needed to advance this 
document and that Rob was not available to take that role."

..posted by Bruno?



> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that 
> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text 
> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an 
> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I 
> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by 
> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> 
> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to 
> move this document to the next stage.

Then you have explicitly dismissed lots of comments made on this 
document that remained unaddressed. I assume you also implicitly support 
Bruno's claim that this wg is enable to evaluate the need for PSP.

Seriously, and with all due respect, I've never seen a wg or area 
proceed like this.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:23:14 2020
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To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, spring@ietf.org
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, "'ietf@ietf.org'" <ietf@ietf.org>
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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Martin,

As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim that 
this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills for 
evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is including 
in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?

Specifically, Bruno has noted (in 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):

---- cut here ----
Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to 
the benefit of PSP.
My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its 
level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It 
may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform" 
(deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a 
vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing 
gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I 
don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of 
hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
---- cut here ----


Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it 
cannot really understand?

Thanks,
Fernando




On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> WG,
> 
> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating 
> consensus for this WG LC.
> 
> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that 
> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text 
> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an 
> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I 
> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by 
> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> 
> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to 
> move this document to the next stage.
> 
> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
> 
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
> [2] 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
> [3] 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
> 
> Le 2019-12-05  18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a crit:
>> Hello SPRING,
>>
>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on 
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>
>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, 
>> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
>>
>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not 
>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are 
>> only spring specifics.
>>
>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically 
>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread 
>> for this point.
>>
>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point 
>> and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted 
>> into parallel independent discussions)
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
>>
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>> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les 
>> messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, 
>> deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or 
>> privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and 
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>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> .
> 


-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 21:32:53 +0100
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Hi,

I am shocked by the declaration of consensus on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming by Martin Vigoureux. There =
was much discussion going on about one aspect of the draft, and there =
was clearly no consensus amongst the participants. There are still =
questions that haven't been answered about even the applicability of the =
contested text, let alone addressed. Promised about for example =
reporting back on the impact on RIR policies have never been fulfilled. =
And those are just the two bits that concern me most personally.

Steamrolling a draft through a working group completely undermines the =
whole idea of the IETF and greatly damages it trustworthiness and =
reliability.  By bluntly declaring consensus despite all of the =
objections within two hours of the latest version of the draft being =
published I feel that Martin Vigoureux has lost the credibility as an =
AD. I strongly feel a resignation is in order at this point.

Cheers,
Sander


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From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:35:40 2020
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References: <F88E3F76-DD4B-4807-A458-85FABFF20D96@gmail.com> <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <CAHw9_iJ_ipEvU0NUx44XbK0_DrLe_GRw6G=m+chK4wZcRP8BMg@mail.gmail.com> <ACA082A4-BC78-4C63-9F91-5C9A44F47642@cisco.com> <b693c244-95f9-473e-de21-166393280d18@gmail.com> <CAHw9_iL6oM73JnSU1QL0+PRohSH6sEskD=enH7QsPrWiUfStDg@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200227113437.10ad6088@elandnews.com> <23106_1582880310_5E58D636_23106_323_2_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DC9786@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228011557.0bd1a0b0@elandnews.com> <27033_1583153322_5E5D00AA_27033_129_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD4DC2@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6.2.5.6.2.20200302082710.0b997868@elandnews.com> <20881_1583169286_5E5D3F06_20881_200_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD5D9C@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6.2.5.6.2.20200302092008.0bf948e0@elandnews.com> <17098_1583172404_5E5D4B34_17098_153_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD5F63@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6.2.5.6.2.20200302101029.0c17eae0@elandnews.com> <CAMMESsyzHuw2ETt7mko45z8DqoZ4USFk9hT_veer7tgYjLSrvg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAMMESsyzHuw2ETt7mko45z8DqoZ4USFk9hT_veer7tgYjLSrvg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:35:25 -0500
Message-ID: <CALaySJ+Qapf+qRj9mnmwpg8LNAkkgKqNdGCpx_ZVM-XHF+Jtfg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>,  Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, spring@ietf.org, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring]  =?utf-8?q?Automated_Disclaimers_=28RE=3A__Request_to_cl?= =?utf-8?b?b3Nl4oCmKQ==?=
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The IESG discussed this years ago (during my prior term) and decided
the following:

- Such disclaimers are impossible for us to stop: they're mandated by
people's companies and they will appear.

- Regardless of what disclaimers appear in people's messages, any
messages that amount to Contributions, as defined in BCP 79, are
covered by the terms in BCP 79.

- People might have the option of using non-work email addresses to
avoid having such disclaimers put on their mail by their employers,
but some employers might forbid that as well.

- We need to just let this stuff go and not worry about it.

Barry

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 2:10 PM Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> On March 2, 2020 at 1:21:25 PM, S Moonesamy wrote:
>
> [Changed the subject to better reflect the topic and for easier tracking.=
]
>
>
> SM:
>
> Hi!  How are you?
>
> > I sent a message to the SPRING Working Group Chairs. The reply which
> > I received from a person who is listed as one of the SPRING Working
> > Group Chairs contains the following footer:
> >
> > "This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d
> > information that may be protected by law; they should not be distribute=
d,
> > used or copied without authorisation.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> > sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that
> > have been modified, changed or falsified."
> >
> > From what I understand, the IESG position on automated disclaimers
> > was that they are not applicable within the context of BCP 9. Was
> > there a change to that?
>
> I looked at BCP 9, but didn't find anything related to your question.
> If I missed it, please point me in the right direction.  I think you
> may be referring to BCP 78.
>
> Specifically, rfc5378 (Rights Contributors Provide to the IETF Trust) rea=
ds:
>
>    5.2.  Confidentiality Obligations
>
>    No information or document that is subject to any requirement of
>    confidentiality or any restriction on its dissemination may be
>    submitted as a Contribution or otherwise considered in any part of
>    the IETF Standards Process, and there must be no assumption of any
>    confidentiality obligation with respect to any Contribution.  Each
>    Contributor agrees that any statement in a Contribution, whether
>    generated automatically or otherwise, that states or implies that the
>    Contribution is confidential or subject to any privilege, can be
>    disregarded for all purposes, and will be of no force or effect.
>
>
> Note that this section is clearly only talking about statements in a
> Contribution (I pasted the definition of "Contribution" below, from
> the same RFC).
>
> If you have other general questions or concerns about this topic, it
> might be more productive to separate them into their own thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alvaro.
>
>
>
> >From rfc5378/=C2=A71:
>
> a. "Contribution": any submission to the IETF intended by the
>    Contributor for publication as all or part of an Internet-Draft or
>    RFC (except for RFC Editor Contributions described in Section 4
>    below) and any statement made within the context of an IETF
>    activity.  Such statements include oral statements in IETF
>    sessions as well as written and electronic communications, made at
>    any time or place, that are addressed to:
>
>    o the IETF plenary session,
>    o any IETF working group or portion thereof,
>    o any Birds of a Feather (BOF) session,
>    o the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG,
>    o the IAB, or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB,
>    o any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any
>      working group or design team list, or any other list functioning
>      under IETF auspices,
>    o the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function (except for RFC
>      Editor Contributions, as described in Section 4 below).
>
>    Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list, or other
>    function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF
>    activity, group, or function are not IETF Contributions in the
>    context of this document.
>


From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:39:08 2020
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From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:46:25 2020
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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On 2/3/20 17:02, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Brian,
> 
> The PSP pseudocode is presented as a modification to the End pseudocode starting at line S14 of such.
> Please go through the PSP pseudocode in conjunction with the End pseudocode (Section 4.1).
> You will see that the ingress state of the packet is (Segments Left == 1 and Destination Address == the PSP node's address).

You are also changing the semantics of routing headers: if you prcessed 
the RH when Segments Left == N, you don't get to decrement SegmentsLeft 
and process the routing header again.

So, again, you should be updating RFC8200, and probably even the 
segment-routing-header I-D.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:56:39 2020
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To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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From: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Resignation request
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Sander Steffann wrote on 02/03/2020 20:32:
> Steamrolling a draft through a working group completely undermines
> the whole idea of the IETF and greatly damages it trustworthiness and
> reliability.  By bluntly declaring consensus despite all of the
> objections within two hours of the latest version of the draft being
> published I feel that Martin Vigoureux has lost the credibility as an
> AD. I strongly feel a resignation is in order at this point.

There's been a really serious breach of due process here.  The issues 
that cropped up on around draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming are 
subtle and not easily resolved.  What is beginning to emerge as 
consensus is that there are underlying problems with 8200 that need 
examination and careful resolution.

Frankly, it is rather difficult to see how the srv6 draft can progress 
without this clarification.

For sure there's no basis for someone to throw a couple of extra 
sentences into a draft and then for an AD to declare consensus two hours 
later - and before anyone's had the chance to even read the draft.

At the very least, the consensus judgement needs to be rolled back.  I 
respectfully suggest that Martin needs to recuse himself from any 
further involvement with this draft, and that he should consider whether 
his actions are compatible with continuing to be an AD.

Nick


From nobody Mon Mar  2 12:59:56 2020
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Hi Nick,

> At the very least, the consensus judgement needs to be rolled back.  I =
respectfully suggest that Martin needs to recuse himself from any =
further involvement with this draft, and that he should consider whether =
his actions are compatible with continuing to be an AD.

Thank you, that is what I was trying to say. Your words reflect what I =
wanted to say better than mine.

Cheers,
Sander


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From: Melchior Aelmans <melchior@aelmans.eu>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 22:02:42 +0100
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To: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>
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I won't just throw in a +1 ;)

On the serious side; following this discussion closely, I have to agree
that at the least it doesn't feel correct and as if this is the right way
of operating.
It might be correct from a procedure pov but it doesn't feel like it should
go this way.

Thanks Nick for wording it better :)

Regards,
Melchior

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 9:57 PM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:

> Sander Steffann wrote on 02/03/2020 20:32:
> > Steamrolling a draft through a working group completely undermines
> > the whole idea of the IETF and greatly damages it trustworthiness and
> > reliability.  By bluntly declaring consensus despite all of the
> > objections within two hours of the latest version of the draft being
> > published I feel that Martin Vigoureux has lost the credibility as an
> > AD. I strongly feel a resignation is in order at this point.
>
> There's been a really serious breach of due process here.  The issues
> that cropped up on around draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming are
> subtle and not easily resolved.  What is beginning to emerge as
> consensus is that there are underlying problems with 8200 that need
> examination and careful resolution.
>
> Frankly, it is rather difficult to see how the srv6 draft can progress
> without this clarification.
>
> For sure there's no basis for someone to throw a couple of extra
> sentences into a draft and then for an AD to declare consensus two hours
> later - and before anyone's had the chance to even read the draft.
>
> At the very least, the consensus judgement needs to be rolled back.  I
> respectfully suggest that Martin needs to recuse himself from any
> further involvement with this draft, and that he should consider whether
> his actions are compatible with continuing to be an AD.
>
> Nick
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I won&#39;t just throw in a=C2=A0+1 ;)=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>On the serious side; following this discussion closely, I =
have to agree that at the least it doesn&#39;t feel correct and as if this =
is the right way of operating.</div><div>It might be correct from a procedu=
re pov but it doesn&#39;t feel like it should go this way.</div><div><br>Th=
anks=C2=A0Nick for wording it better :)</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</=
div><div>Melchior</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 9:57 PM Nick Hilliard &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:nick@foobar.org">nick@foobar.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Sander Steffann wrote on 02/03/2=
020 20:32:<br>
&gt; Steamrolling a draft through a working group completely undermines<br>
&gt; the whole idea of the IETF and greatly damages it trustworthiness and<=
br>
&gt; reliability.=C2=A0 By bluntly declaring consensus despite all of the<b=
r>
&gt; objections within two hours of the latest version of the draft being<b=
r>
&gt; published I feel that Martin Vigoureux has lost the credibility as an<=
br>
&gt; AD. I strongly feel a resignation is in order at this point.<br>
<br>
There&#39;s been a really serious breach of due process here.=C2=A0 The iss=
ues <br>
that cropped up on around draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming are <b=
r>
subtle and not easily resolved.=C2=A0 What is beginning to emerge as <br>
consensus is that there are underlying problems with 8200 that need <br>
examination and careful resolution.<br>
<br>
Frankly, it is rather difficult to see how the srv6 draft can progress <br>
without this clarification.<br>
<br>
For sure there&#39;s no basis for someone to throw a couple of extra <br>
sentences into a draft and then for an AD to declare consensus two hours <b=
r>
later - and before anyone&#39;s had the chance to even read the draft.<br>
<br>
At the very least, the consensus judgement needs to be rolled back.=C2=A0 I=
 <br>
respectfully suggest that Martin needs to recuse himself from any <br>
further involvement with this draft, and that he should consider whether <b=
r>
his actions are compatible with continuing to be an AD.<br>
<br>
Nick<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
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Hi Darren,

On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 at 08:11, Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
wrote:
>
> Mark AH is not defined for SRH.  There is no specification to ignore.
>

So AH is defined for RFC8200 IPv6 (and back to as early as RFC1883 IPv6 in
RFC1826), and if a node claims to talk RFC IPv6, then AH should be able to
be applied without issue because AH was designed to work with standard
RFC8200 IPv6.

This is why I think one perspective on AH is that it is a strict statement
on what is and isn't allowed to be performed on an IPv6 packet while it is
flight, because out-of-RFC8200 IPv6 specification operations will cause AH
checks to fail. I think AH is a effectively an RFC8200 processing
compliance checklist.

If SR is using IPv6 as IPv6 is specified, and as has been claimed and is
implied by using the term "IPv6" itself and referencing RFC8200, then SR
operations over IPv6 should never fail the integrity checks that AH
performs.

> Recall RFC8200 says nothing about mutability, it only describes things
that are
> modified in flight and how/why.
>
> RFC4301 builds on RFC8200 to define mutability for use in AH ICV
computation
> without having to modify RFC8200.  =E2=80=9CMutability" is not defined fo=
r IPv6
headers
> for any other reason.
>

Summing up these two paragraphs, I think this is saying that if an RFC
doesn't specifically prohibit something, then it would be fine to do it.

This would mean that no behaviour would be "out of spec".

Operationally I think that would be a disaster. I use RFCs as the authority
on how a device or implementation should be behaving. If a device or
implementation isn't behaving as the RFC it claims to comply with says, I
consider it a bug, and I lodge a fault with a vendor or implementer,
describing the non-compliant behaviour and referencing the RFC.

I can't then have a vendor or implementer dismiss my fault report with "we
comply with the specifications until we don't." because reporting bugs and
faults then serves no purpose.

It also means that RFCs with a goal of interoperability serves no purpose.

In the IETF that could be countered by having specifications that
enumerates and either permits or prohibits every conceivable operation,
including very perverse ones, that could be performed on a packet. It
wouldn't be surprising if RFCs became 10 times larger and took 10 times
longer to publish if we did that.


> draft-ietf-6man-semgnet-routing-header builds on RFC8200 to define a new
RH
> type without modifying RFC8200.
>
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming builds on RFC8200 and
> draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header to define useful SIDs, their
behaviors
> and signaling within an SR domain without modifying any of the base
specifications.
>
> Of course RFC8200 has text covering the validity of extension header
insertion,
> deletion and processing at node(s) identified in the IPv6 destination
address (Section 4).
> As we all know, routing headers can=E2=80=99t work if a segment endpoint =
can=E2=80=99t
> process extension headers.
> Using this fact, PSP builds on RFC8200 to
> offer new functionality within an SR Domain.
>
> Of course RFC4301 says AH processing for new extension headers are
outside its
> scope, one can define AH processing for SRH with knowledge of, and
building on,
> all the above. Or they can just use ESP.
>

You can define new EHs and define read/write operations on their contents,
within the scope of what AH allows.

AH does not permit Next Header fields and the Payload Length field to be
modified, so removal and insertion of EHs is not permitted. In-flight
removal before the final end-DA, which is the node that performs AH
verification, will cause AH verification to fail.


Regards,
Mark.



> There is no ignoring here.
> There is conscious and careful building on existing standards as they are
written.
>
> Darren
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 20:50 Xiejingrong (Jingrong), <xiejingrong@huawei.co=
m>
wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>> I think both AH and PSP are optional.
>> If AH is desired to deploy, then the operator can choose not to use PSP.
>> If AH is not deployed, and the operator has its requirements of
incremental-deployment, then the operator can choose to use PSP.
>
>
> You've missed the point. AH is an assurance mechanism for something that
should *already* be happening - processing packets in accordance with RFC
8200.
>
> Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn't mean SPRING can ignore the IPv6
specifications.
>
>
>
>> If the already deployed PSP is removed from the draft, then I think it's
backward for interoperation.
>>
>> RFC4301:
>> 3.2.  How IPsec Works
>>
>>    IPsec uses two protocols to provide traffic security services --
>>    Authentication Header (AH) and Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP).
>>    Both protocols are described in detail in their respective RFCs
>>    [Ken05b, Ken05a].  IPsec implementations MUST support ESP and MAY
>>    support AH. (Support for AH has been downgraded to MAY because
>>    experience has shown that there are very few contexts in which ESP
>>    cannot provide the requisite security services.  Note that ESP can be
>>    used to provide only integrity, without confidentiality, making it
>>    comparable to AH in most contexts.)
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jingrong
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Smith
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:31 AM
>> To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>> Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern <
jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>>
>> Hi Pablo,
>>
>> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <
pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >  Hi Ron,
>> >
>> > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So
far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9C=
there are no use-cases
or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =
=E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit
again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=
=9D.
>> >
>>
>> As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header
and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling within
the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base fixed header.
>>
>> Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in flight
between the packet's original source and final destination, nor is there
anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those modifications and any
other discussion about the consequences and considerations when doing so.
>>
>>
>> The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the
>> IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is within
the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a
specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur while it
is in flight across the network towards its final destination.
>>
>> Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network
packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the packet by
the network with or without the use of AH should be the same. AH should
really only be necessary if there is a belief that the network is likely
not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC 8200, either accidentally
or intentionally.
>>
>>
>> Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),  the following section explicitly states which
fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH:
>>
>>
>> 3.3.3.1.2.  ICV Computation for IPv6
>>
>> 3.3.3.1.2.1.  Base Header Fields
>>
>>    The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows:
>>
>> Immutable
>>            Version
>>            Payload Length
>>            Next Header
>>            Source Address
>>            Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header)
>>
>>    Mutable but predictable
>>            Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header)
>>
>>    Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation)
>>            DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98])
>>            ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01])
>>            Flow Label (*)
>>            Hop Limit
>>
>>         (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in
>>             RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable.  To retain
>>             compatibility with existing AH implementations, the
>>             flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been
implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described
and positively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further
explanation to provide.
>> >
>>
>> "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."
>>
>> How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this?
>>
>> I think a very important factor is how easy something is to troubleshoot
- how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism consistent with
existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least surprise (removing EHs at
an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, even if the intermediary hop
as the packet's current DA); when it inevitably fails, how obvious is it
where the fault is likely to be; and how quickly can a typical fault be
rectified.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Happy Holidays,
>> > Pablo.
>> >
>> >
>> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>> > From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
>> > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06
>> > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M.
>> > Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>> >
>> >     Pablo,
>> >
>> >     In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier for the
penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimate node to
ignore it? I think that would be a stretch.
>> >
>> >

>> > Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >     Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> >     -----Original Message-----
>> >     From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>> >     Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM
>> >     To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Joel M. Halpern <
jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>> >     Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>> >
>> >     Ron,
>> >
>> >     What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All the
current implementations do this at linerate with no performance degradation
as I have explained in my email before.
>> >
>> >     There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP,
which proves the benefit.
>> >     It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members
in the list. [1], [2] and [5].
>> >     From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]=
.
>> >     Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]..
>> >
>> >     [1].-
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wT=
LJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30=
eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$
>> >     [2].-
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0=
ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30=
eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$
>> >     [3].-
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ss=
obwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30=
eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$
>> >     [4].-
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KX=
CBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30=
eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$
>> >     [5].-
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spri
>> > ng/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiB
>> > zoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$
>> >
>> >     Cheers,
>> >     Pablo.
>> >
>> >     -----Original Message-----
>> >     From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
>> >     Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50
>> >     To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M.
Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> >     Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>> >
>> >         Pablo,
>> >
>> >         I am not convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segment
>> > justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically,
>> >
>> >         - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't have to
skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0
>> >         - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this benefit,
>> > the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the
>> > packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header
>> >
>> >         As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e.,
complexity) to a specification unless there is substantial benefit.
>> >
>> >                                                             Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >         Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> >         -----Original Message-----
>> >         From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pablo
Camarillo (pcamaril)
>> >         Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM
>> >         To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>> >         Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>> >
>> >         Joel,
>> >
>> >         1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at the
mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits to operators.
>> >
>> >         2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in
his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular
router.
>> >         Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. The PSP
behavior has been implemented by several vendors and deployed (see the srv6
deployment draft).
>> >
>> >         3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and not at
others.  Everything is still interoperable and works fine.
>> >
>> >         4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at
linerate on existing merchant silicon).
>> >         Example: It has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom
J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March
2016! PSP is supported on this platform at linerate with no performance
degradation (neither PPPS nor BW).
>> >         Given that this is doable in a platform from more than 3 years
ago, I fail to see how you need "very special provision" to do this.
>> >
>> >         Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of
choice to the operators deploying?
>> >
>> >         In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in
hardware and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operators.
>> >
>> >         Thanks,
>> >         Pablo.
>> >
>> >         -----Original Message-----
>> >         From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Joel M.
Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>> >         Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55
>> >         To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> >         Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>> >
>> >             For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP
violates RFC 8200,
>> >             let us assume that it is legal.
>> >
>> >             As I understand it, the PSP situation is:
>> >             o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about
whether SIDs
>> >             are locators) identified by the SID in the destination
address field
>> >             o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list
>> >             o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP
>> >             o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the
last (first)
>> >             entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6
address field of
>> >             the packet
>> >             -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet.
>> >
>> >             In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have
to have some
>> >             idea of the benefit.  It may be that I am missing some of
the benefit,
>> >             and I would appreciate clarification.
>> >             As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that
in exchange
>> >             for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the
final node in the
>> >             SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has
been removed.
>> >
>> >             I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be
beneficial.
>> >             Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex
operation.
>> >             Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast
path of
>> >             significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very
special
>> >             provision.  Even in software, removing bytes from the
middle of a packet
>> >             requires somewhere between some and a lot of extra work.
It is
>> >             distinctly NOT free.
>> >
>> >             In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing
SRH itself is
>> >             tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be
problematic.  So why is
>> >             this necessary.
>> >
>> >             Yours,
>> >             Joel
>> >
>> >             PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation
case are very
>> >             different in that the material being removed is at the
front of the IP
>> >             packet.  Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than
middle-removal (or
>> >             middle-insertion).
>> >
>> >             _______________________________________________
>> >             spring mailing list
>> >             spring@ietf.org
>> >
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri
>> > ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7
>> > 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>> >
>> >
>> >         _______________________________________________
>> >         spring mailing list
>> >         spring@ietf.org
>> >
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri
>> > ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7
>> > 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > spring mailing list
>> > spring@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Darren,<br>
<br>
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 at 08:11, Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
dukes@cisco.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ddukes@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Mark AH is not defined for SRH.=C2=A0 There is no specification to ign=
ore.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
So AH is defined for RFC8200 IPv6 (and back to as early as RFC1883 IPv6 in =
RFC1826), and if a node claims to talk RFC IPv6, then AH should be able to =
be applied without issue because AH was designed to work with standard RFC8=
200 IPv6.<br>
<br>
This is why I think one perspective on AH is that it is a strict statement =
on what is and isn&#39;t allowed to be performed on an IPv6 packet while it=
 is flight, because out-of-RFC8200 IPv6 specification operations will cause=
 AH checks to fail. I think AH is a effectively an RFC8200 processing compl=
iance checklist.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If SR is usin=
g IPv6 as IPv6 is specified, and as has been claimed and is implied by usin=
g the term &quot;IPv6&quot; itself and referencing RFC8200, then SR operati=
ons over IPv6 should never fail the integrity checks that AH performs.<br>
<br>
&gt; Recall RFC8200 says nothing about mutability, it only describes things=
 that are<br>
&gt; modified in flight and how/why.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; RFC4301 builds on RFC8200 to define mutability for use in AH ICV compu=
tation<br>
&gt; without having to modify RFC8200.=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CMutability&quot; is n=
ot defined for IPv6 headers<br>
&gt; for any other reason.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
Summing up these two paragraphs, I think this is saying that if an RFC does=
n&#39;t specifically prohibit something, then it would be fine to do it.<br=
>
<br>
This would mean that no behaviour would be &quot;out of spec&quot;.<br>
<br>
Operationally I think that would be a disaster. I use RFCs as the authority=
 on how a device or implementation should be behaving. If a device or imple=
mentation isn&#39;t behaving as the RFC it claims to comply with says, I co=
nsider it a bug, and I lodge a fault with a vendor or implementer, describi=
ng the non-compliant behaviour and referencing the RFC.<br><br>
I can&#39;t then have a vendor or implementer dismiss my fault report with =
&quot;we comply with the specifications until we don&#39;t.&quot; because r=
eporting bugs and faults then serves no purpose.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">It also means that RFCs with a goal of interoperab=
ility serves no purpose.<br>
<br>
In the IETF that could be countered by having specifications that enumerate=
s and either permits or prohibits every conceivable operation, including ve=
ry perverse ones, that could be performed on a packet. It wouldn&#39;t be s=
urprising if RFCs became 10 times larger and took 10 times longer to publis=
h if we did that.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-6man-semgnet-routing-header builds on RFC8200 to define a n=
ew RH<br>
&gt; type without modifying RFC8200.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming builds on RFC8200 and<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header to define useful SIDs, their be=
haviors<br>
&gt; and signaling within an SR domain without modifying any of the base sp=
ecifications.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Of course RFC8200 has text covering the validity of extension header i=
nsertion,<br>
&gt; deletion and processing at node(s) identified in the IPv6 destination =
address (Section 4).<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">
&gt; As we all know, routing headers can=E2=80=99t work if a segment endpoi=
nt can=E2=80=99t<br>
&gt; process extension headers.<br>
&gt; Using this fact, PSP builds on RFC8200 to<br>
&gt; offer new functionality within an SR Domain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Of course RFC4301 says AH processing for new extension headers are out=
side its<br>
&gt; scope, one can define AH processing for SRH with knowledge of, and bui=
lding on,<br>
&gt; all the above. Or they can just use ESP.<br>
&gt;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You can define new =
EHs and define read/write operations on their contents, within the scope of=
 what AH allows.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">AH does=
 not permit Next Header fields and the Payload Length field to be modified,=
 so removal and insertion of EHs is not permitted. In-flight removal before=
 the final end-DA, which is the node that performs AH verification, will ca=
use AH verification to fail.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br>
&gt; There is no ignoring here.<br>
&gt; There is conscious and careful building on existing standards as they =
are written.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Darren<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Feb 26, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzs=
mith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">markzzzsmit=
h@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 20:50 Xiejingrong (Jingrong), &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:xiejingrong@huawei.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Mark,<br>
&gt;&gt; I think both AH and PSP are optional.<br>
&gt;&gt; If AH is desired to deploy, then the operator can choose not to us=
e PSP.<br>
&gt;&gt; If AH is not deployed, and the operator has its requirements of in=
cremental-deployment, then the operator can choose to use PSP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You&#39;ve missed the point. AH is an assurance mechanism for somethin=
g that should *already* be happening - processing packets in accordance wit=
h RFC 8200.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn&#39;t mean SPRING can ignore the=
 IPv6 specifications.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If the already deployed PSP is removed from the draft, then I thin=
k it&#39;s backward for interoperation.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; RFC4301:<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.2.=C2=A0 How IPsec Works<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPsec uses two protocols to provide traffic security =
services --<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authentication Header (AH) and Encapsulating Security=
 Payload (ESP).<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Both protocols are described in detail in their respe=
ctive RFCs<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Ken05b, Ken05a].=C2=A0 IPsec implementations MUST su=
pport ESP and MAY<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support AH. (Support for AH has been downgraded to MA=
Y because<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 experience has shown that there are very few contexts=
 in which ESP<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cannot provide the requisite security services.=C2=A0=
 Note that ESP can be<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 used to provide only integrity, without confidentiali=
ty, making it<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 comparable to AH in most contexts.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt; Jingrong<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" re=
l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
On Behalf Of Mark Smith<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:31 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisc=
o.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">pcamaril@cisco.com</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>; Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalper=
n.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Pablo,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisco.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">pcamaril@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 Hi Ron,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I guess we are making some progress here but going in some ci=
rcles. So far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to=
 =E2=80=9Cthere are no use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is c=
omplex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit again=E2=80=9D =
and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed hea=
der and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling wi=
thin the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base fixed hea=
der.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in f=
light between the packet&#39;s original source and final destination, nor i=
s there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those modifications a=
nd any other discussion about the consequences and considerations when doin=
g so.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt; IPv6 packet that shouldn&#39;t be being modified while the packet =
is within the network. What is and isn&#39;t protected by AH can be seen to=
 be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur whi=
le it is in flight across the network towards its final destination.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the netw=
ork packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the packet=
 by the network with or without the use of AH should be the same. AH should=
 really only be necessary if there is a belief that the network is likely n=
ot to be processing packets in accordance to RFC 8200, either accidentally =
or intentionally.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),=C2=A0 the following section explicitly sta=
tes which fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected b=
y AH:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.3.3.1.2.=C2=A0 ICV Computation for IPv6<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.3.3.1.2.1.=C2=A0 Base Header Fields<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows=
:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Immutable<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Version<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Payload Length<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Next Header<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Source Address<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Destination Address (with=
out Routing Extension Header)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mutable but predictable<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Destination Address (with=
 Routing Extension Header)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation)<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474=
 [NBBB98])<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 =
[RFB01])<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Flow Label (*)<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hop Limit<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(*) The flow label described in A=
Hv1 was mutable, and in<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 2460 [DH98] was=
 potentially mutable.=C2=A0 To retain<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compatibility with =
existing AH implementations, the<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0flow label is not i=
ncluded in the ICV in AHv2.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has bee=
n implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been describe=
d and positively reinforced by operators. I don&#39;t think there is any fu=
rther explanation to provide.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Just because you can do something, doesn&#39;t mean you shou=
ld.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think a very important factor is how easy something is to troubl=
eshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism consistent wi=
th existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least surprise (removing EHs a=
t an intermediary hop certainly isn&#39;t in IPv6, even if the intermediary=
 hop as the packet&#39;s current DA); when it inevitably fails, how obvious=
 is it where the fault is likely to be; and how quickly can a typical fault=
 be rectified.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Mark.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Happy Holidays,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Pablo.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; From: Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net" r=
el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; To: &quot;Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:pcamaril@cisco.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">pca=
maril@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Joel M.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Halpern&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.or=
g" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In your message below, are you arguing tha=
t it is easier for the penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for th=
e ultimate node to ignore it? I think that would be a stretch.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Ron<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisco.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">pcamaril@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rboni=
ca@juniper.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">rbonica@jun=
iper.net</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com=
" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&g=
t;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good i=
dea<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What is the &quot;price paid by the penult=
imate segment&quot;? All the current implementations do this at linerate wi=
th no performance degradation as I have explained in my email before.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is substantial benefit. Four operato=
rs have deployed PSP, which proves the benefit.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It enables new use-cases that have been pr=
ovided by other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From operational perspective it is not com=
plex as explained in [3].<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operators have expressed their value in [4=
] and [5]..<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[1].- <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0=
__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icd=
XeBzk_$" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6=
xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFE=
WdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[2].- <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c=
__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU=
9bihBc$" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSV=
ZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFE=
WdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[3].- <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0=
__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc=
_wo902$" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrP=
z0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFE=
WdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[4].- <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk=
__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcR=
Xo_q-1$" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tp=
y17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFE=
WdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[5].-<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ie=
tf.org/arch/msg/spri" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spr=
i</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; ng/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPN=
wsalQ6RiB<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; zoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbo=
nica@juniper.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">rbonica@j=
uniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: &quot;Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisco.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">pcamaril@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Joel M. Halpern&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ie=
tf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good i=
dea<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am not convinced the benef=
it derived by the ultimate segment<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specific=
ally,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the ultimate segment benef=
its because it doesn&#39;t have to skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- in order for the ultimate =
segment to derive this benefit,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle=
 of the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As Joel said, we typically d=
on&#39;t add options (i.e., complexity) to a specification unless there is =
substantial benefit.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Ron<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only<br=
>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril=
)<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Wednesday, December 11=
, 2019 3:12 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv=
6 PSP a good idea<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.- The use-case for PSP has=
 already been provided at the mailer. There are scenarios where it provides=
 benefits to operators.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.- The PSP behavior is opti=
onal. It is up to the operator in his deployment to decide whether to enabl=
e it or not at one particular router.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Similarly, a vendor may deci=
de not to implement it. The PSP behavior has been implemented by several ve=
ndors and deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft).<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.- A network may have PSP e=
nabled at some nodes and not at others.=C2=A0 Everything is still interoper=
able and works fine.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.- PSP is not a complex ope=
ration in hardware (doable at linerate on existing merchant silicon).<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: It has been impleme=
nted and deployed on Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+=
 started shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at liner=
ate with no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW).<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is doable in=
 a platform from more than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need &quot;ve=
ry special provision&quot; to do this.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is it really something that =
horrible to provide freedom of choice to the operators deploying?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In summary, it can be implem=
ented without any burden in hardware and deployment experience prove this i=
s beneficial to operators.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Joel M. Halpern&quo=
t; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Wednesday, 11 December=
 2019 at 03:55<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PS=
P a good idea<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For purposes o=
f this thread, even if you think PSP violates RFC 8200,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0let us assume =
that it is legal.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I understan=
d it, the PSP situation is:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o the packet a=
rrives at the place (let&#39;s not argue about whether SIDs<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are locators) =
identified by the SID in the destination address field<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that SID is =
the next to last SID in the SID list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that sid is =
marked as / known to be PSP<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o at the inten=
ded place in the processing pseudocode, the last (first)<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entry in the S=
RH is copied into the destination IPv6 address field of<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-&gt; The SRH =
being used is then removed from the packet.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In order to ev=
aluate whether this is a good idea, we have to have some<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea of the be=
nefit.=C2=A0 It may be that I am missing some of the benefit,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and I would ap=
preciate clarification.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I ca=
n tell, the benefit of this removal is that in exchange<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this node =
doing the work of removing the SRH, the final node in the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH does not h=
ave to process the SRH at all, as it has been removed.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have trouble=
 seeing how that work tradeoff can be beneficial.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Removing bytes=
 from the middle of a packet is a complex operation.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doing so in Si=
licon (we expect this to be done in the fast path of<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0significant fo=
rwarders as I understand it) requires very special<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provision.=C2=
=A0 Even in software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires somew=
here between some and a lot of extra work.=C2=A0 It is<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distinctly NOT=
 free.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In contrast, w=
e have assumed that the work of processing SRH itself is<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tractable, sin=
ce otherwise all of SRv6 would be problematic.=C2=A0 So why is<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this necessary=
.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PS: Note that =
both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case are very<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different in t=
hat the material being removed is at the front of the IP<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.=C2=A0 =
Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0middle-inserti=
on).<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________=
_________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing=
 list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mai=
lto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/spri" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr=
i</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubK=
pIuKXA1r7<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____________________________=
___________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:spring@iet=
f.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/spri" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr=
i</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubK=
pIuKXA1r7<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"no=
referrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br></div></div>

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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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From nobody Mon Mar  2 13:16:12 2020
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On 2/3/20 18:09, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> Fernando, you are wrong.  SRH processing only occurs at the segment endpoint, there is no "processing the routing header again”.

Does the fact that PSP stands for "Penultimate Segment Pop" ring any bells?

PSP specifies en-route removal of IPv6 extension headers. This violated 
RFC8200 that prohibits such behaviour, and also violates the 
specification of routing headers.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Dear all,

The procedure to instantiate what effectively constitutes a resignation is described in 7437 + 8713, specifically https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7437#section-7 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8713#section-7

Keep in mind, this is a different process than an appeal on for instance a decision made regarding a working group's consensus (or lack thereof).

Kind regards,

Job


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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 13:19:20 -0800
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To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Resignation request
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Hi Sander,

Without any comment on this particular instance, it is generally a good
idea to go through an appeal of a specific decision first. My experience is
that people do reconsider their actions in the light of appeals fairly
frequently, and it is generally better to explore the option of
reconsideration before anything else.  If there are still concerns after
that, you can always test the waters for further actions (such as a recall,
which is set out in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7437#section-7 and
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8713#section-7).

Having made many of my own mistakes over the course of my time in the IETF,
I know I have appreciated the opportunity to get something right (or
explain more fully my reasoning.)  I understand that there are other
efforts at drafting a summary of issues in the general space, but a short,
focused appeal of the nature "I ask for a reconsideration of a declaration
of consensus, given the amount of time the most recent draft was available
before its declaration" might prove useful.

best regards,

Ted

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 12:34 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am shocked by the declaration of consensus on
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming by Martin Vigoureux. There was
> much discussion going on about one aspect of the draft, and there was
> clearly no consensus amongst the participants. There are still questions
> that haven't been answered about even the applicability of the contested
> text, let alone addressed. Promised about for example reporting back on the
> impact on RIR policies have never been fulfilled. And those are just the
> two bits that concern me most personally.
>
> Steamrolling a draft through a working group completely undermines the
> whole idea of the IETF and greatly damages it trustworthiness and
> reliability.  By bluntly declaring consensus despite all of the objections
> within two hours of the latest version of the draft being published I feel
> that Martin Vigoureux has lost the credibility as an AD. I strongly feel a
> resignation is in order at this point.
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>

--000000000000206acd059fe5bf1e
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Sander,</div><div><br></div><div>Without any comme=
nt on this particular instance, it is generally a good idea to go through a=
n appeal of a specific decision first. My experience is that people do reco=
nsider their actions in the light of appeals fairly frequently, and it is g=
enerally better to explore the option of reconsideration before anything el=
se.=C2=A0 If there are still concerns after that, you can always test the w=
aters for further actions (such as a recall, which is set out in <a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7437#section-7">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/rfc7437#section-7</a> and=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc=
8713#section-7">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8713#section-7</a>).</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Having made many of my own mistakes over the course of my=
 time in the IETF, I know I have appreciated the opportunity to get somethi=
ng right (or explain more fully my reasoning.)=C2=A0 I understand that ther=
e are other efforts at drafting a summary of issues in the general space, b=
ut a short, focused appeal of the nature &quot;I ask for a reconsideration =
of a declaration of consensus, given the amount of time the most recent dra=
ft was available before its declaration&quot; might prove useful.</div><div=
><br></div><div>best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ted<br></div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon,=
 Mar 2, 2020 at 12:34 PM Sander Steffann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sander@steff=
ann.nl">sander@steffann.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
I am shocked by the declaration of consensus on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netw=
ork-programming by Martin Vigoureux. There was much discussion going on abo=
ut one aspect of the draft, and there was clearly no consensus amongst the =
participants. There are still questions that haven&#39;t been answered abou=
t even the applicability of the contested text, let alone addressed. Promis=
ed about for example reporting back on the impact on RIR policies have neve=
r been fulfilled. And those are just the two bits that concern me most pers=
onally.<br>
<br>
Steamrolling a draft through a working group completely undermines the whol=
e idea of the IETF and greatly damages it trustworthiness and reliability.=
=C2=A0 By bluntly declaring consensus despite all of the objections within =
two hours of the latest version of the draft being published I feel that Ma=
rtin Vigoureux has lost the credibility as an AD. I strongly feel a resigna=
tion is in order at this point.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Sander<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000206acd059fe5bf1e--


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Hi Ted,

> Without any comment on this particular instance, it is generally a =
good idea to go through an appeal of a specific decision first. My =
experience is that people do reconsider their actions in the light of =
appeals fairly frequently, and it is generally better to explore the =
option of reconsideration before anything else.  If there are still =
concerns after that, you can always test the waters for further actions =
(such as a recall, which is set out in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7437#section-7 and  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8713#section-7).

I hope that email that was all that is necessary. I dislike official =
procedures against people when not necessary. People make mistakes, and =
should (must) be given the opportunity to solve them. In this case I =
feel that part of that solution is a voluntary resignation, but I'm open =
to alternatives.

> Having made many of my own mistakes over the course of my time in the =
IETF, I know I have appreciated the opportunity to get something right =
(or explain more fully my reasoning.)  I understand that there are other =
efforts at drafting a summary of issues in the general space, but a =
short, focused appeal of the nature "I ask for a reconsideration of a =
declaration of consensus, given the amount of time the most recent draft =
was available before its declaration" might prove useful.

If that was the only thing I object to=E2=80=A6 Unfortunately I cannot =
believe an AD can be oblivious of the controversy, and I have seen =
several attempts to solve the open issues. I am just baffled that =
consensus can be declared while these attempts are still ongoing.

Let's see what happens now before deciding what to do next.

Thank you for your advice.

Cheers,
Sander


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:39:44 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2w8kJaEFUTuk0cpNo48q=035fYCNrLiwVwr-TeM2j5wkA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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This -11 draft was posted at 3:53 am Melbourne, Australia time, and this
declaration of consensus was at 5:35 am Melbourne, Australia time.

Sometimes I'm awake at those hours, but not last night. I did not have an
opportunity to review the changes.


Regards,
Mark.




On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, 05:53 Martin Vigoureux, <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
wrote:

> WG,
>
> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
> consensus for this WG LC.
>
> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that
> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text
> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an
> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I
> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by
> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>
> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to
> move this document to the next stage.
>
> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
> [1]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
> [2]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
> [3]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
>
> Le 2019-12-05 =C3=A0 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a =C3=A9crit :
> > Hello SPRING,
> >
> > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
> >
> > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,
> > and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20=
.
> >
> > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not
> > duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are
> > only spring specifics.
> >
> > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debate=
d
> > on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this
> point.
> >
> > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point an=
d
> > that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into
> > parallel independent discussions)
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Bruno
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s
> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme
> ou falsifie. Merci.
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> information that may be protected by law;
> > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
> delete this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have
> been modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > spring mailing list
> > spring@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">This -11 draft was posted at 3:53 am Me=
lbourne, Australia time, and this declaration of consensus was at 5:35 am M=
elbourne, Australia time.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Sometimes I&#39;m awake at those hours, but not last night. I did not hav=
e an opportunity to review the changes.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div><b=
r><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On T=
ue, 3 Mar 2020, 05:53 Martin Vigoureux, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigour=
eux@nokia.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigou=
reux@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">WG,<b=
r>
<br>
as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating <br>
consensus for this WG LC.<br>
<br>
I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that <br>
disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text <br>
of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an <br>
optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I <b=
r>
have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by <b=
r>
the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.<br>
<br>
My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to <br>
move this document to the next stage.<br>
<br>
Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.<br>
<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
[1] <br>
<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x3=
39rGpcso/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGp=
cso/</a><br>
[2] <br>
<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsL=
C76FZmQ0/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZ=
mQ0/</a><br>
[3] <br>
<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iC=
h3jSIKBc/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSI=
KBc/</a><br>
<br>
Le 2019-12-05 =C3=A0 18:15, <a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" re=
l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@ora=
nge.com</a> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br>
&gt; Hello SPRING,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on <br>
&gt; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please read this document if you haven&#39;t read the most recent vers=
ion, <br>
&gt; and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 2=
0.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not <b=
r>
&gt; duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are=
 <br>
&gt; only spring specifics.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed <br>
&gt; on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this p=
oint.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd <br>
&gt; that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into=
 <br>
&gt; parallel independent discussions)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bruno<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [1] <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-=
programming-05" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-prog=
ramming-05</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<br>
&gt; pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
&gt; a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les me=
ssages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,<br>
&gt; Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<br>
&gt; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
br>
&gt; If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<br>
&gt; As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<br>
&gt; Thank you.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000479859059fe60722--


From nobody Mon Mar  2 13:40:47 2020
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Subject: Re: [spring] Resignation request
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I have no information about the situation but I do not understand why an =
AD would be declaring consensus in any case -=20
that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.  see RFC 2418 section =
3.3=20

Scott

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ted,
>=20
>> Without any comment on this particular instance, it is generally a =
good idea to go through an appeal of a specific decision first. My =
experience is that people do reconsider their actions in the light of =
appeals fairly frequently, and it is generally better to explore the =
option of reconsideration before anything else.  If there are still =
concerns after that, you can always test the waters for further actions =
(such as a recall, which is set out in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7437#section-7 and  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8713#section-7).
>=20
> I hope that email that was all that is necessary. I dislike official =
procedures against people when not necessary. People make mistakes, and =
should (must) be given the opportunity to solve them. In this case I =
feel that part of that solution is a voluntary resignation, but I'm open =
to alternatives.
>=20
>> Having made many of my own mistakes over the course of my time in the =
IETF, I know I have appreciated the opportunity to get something right =
(or explain more fully my reasoning.)  I understand that there are other =
efforts at drafting a summary of issues in the general space, but a =
short, focused appeal of the nature "I ask for a reconsideration of a =
declaration of consensus, given the amount of time the most recent draft =
was available before its declaration" might prove useful.
>=20
> If that was the only thing I object to=E2=80=A6 Unfortunately I cannot =
believe an AD can be oblivious of the controversy, and I have seen =
several attempts to solve the open issues. I am just baffled that =
consensus can be declared while these attempts are still ongoing.
>=20
> Let's see what happens now before deciding what to do next.
>=20
> Thank you for your advice.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Sander
>=20


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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Hi,

> =EF=BB=BFI have no information about the situation but I do not understand=
 why an AD would be declaring consensus in any case -=20
> that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.  see RFC 2418 section 3.=
3=20

The only active/available WG chair was a co-author of this draft.

Cheers,
Sander



From nobody Mon Mar  2 13:46:33 2020
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well, that is a funky situation

thanks

Scott

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 4:43 PM, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFI have no information about the situation but I do not =
understand why an AD would be declaring consensus in any case -=20
>> that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.  see RFC 2418 =
section 3.3=20
>=20
> The only active/available WG chair was a co-author of this draft.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Sander
>=20
>=20


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On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 08:39, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This -11 draft was posted at 3:53 am Melbourne, Australia time, and this =
declaration of consensus was at 5:35 am Melbourne, Australia time.
>
> Sometimes I'm awake at those hours, but not last night. I did not have an=
 opportunity to review the changes.
>

Reviewing what was changed, my comment section 3.1, "SID Format", and
offer to provide some text as been completely ignored.

"[spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 - "3.1. SID
Format" should be more prescriptive"

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/2ApHpreqPTS689pAEyhiZEdTf7k/

Regards,
Mark.



>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, 05:53 Martin Vigoureux, <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com> =
wrote:
>>
>> WG,
>>
>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
>> consensus for this WG LC.
>>
>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that
>> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text
>> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an
>> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I
>> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by
>> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>>
>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to
>> move this document to the next stage.
>>
>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>>
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> [1]
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso=
/
>> [2]
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0=
/
>> [3]
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc=
/
>>
>> Le 2019-12-05 =C3=A0 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a =C3=A9crit :
>> > Hello SPRING,
>> >
>> > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>> > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>> >
>> > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,
>> > and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 2=
0.
>> >
>> > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not
>> > duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are
>> > only spring specifics.
>> >
>> > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed
>> > on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this p=
oint.
>> >
>> > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd
>> > that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into
>> > parallel independent discussions)
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> > Bruno
>> >
>> > [1]
>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
-05
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>> >
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>> >
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


From nobody Mon Mar  2 14:55:53 2020
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: [spring] Un-addressed issues in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Folks,

I'm trying to come up with a list of the issues raised during the WGLC 
of this document.

So far, this is what I have:

1) Participants requested a justification for the need of PSP 
(Penultimate Segment Pop). [PSP-R]

2) Participants noted that PSP violates RFC8200 [IPV6-V]

3) Participants noted that PSP violates the specification of routing 
headers [SR-V]

4) Participants requested a more prescriptive SID format [SID]


Is there anything I've missed?


References:

[IPV6-V] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/XZ_D_cfPNNzXpi4_ZbuTidMTo4k/

[PSP-R] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/eSP4xVYVgjtCmAMGMkqHedv80jU/

[SID] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/2ApHpreqPTS689pAEyhiZEdTf7k/

[SR-V] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Xrcclo0s4pnug9upG9rUinYMv1I/


Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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At Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:06:17 +0100,
Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:
>
>  "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its
> source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it
> has arrived at its ultimate destination".
>
> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. Reason
> being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which has
> as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not
> PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the specification.

(Sorry for the hopefully small delay, I've been out of town for these
several days and am now catching up with the backlog).

Hmm, so, using the notation shown in Section 5.1 of
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, is this how the PSP is
expected to work?

- Node N creates an encapsulated IPv6 packet:
  (T, S1) (S3, S2, S1; SL=2) (A, B2)
- at S1, since SL != 0,
  decrease SL to 1,
  copy SList[SL] = SList[1] = S2 to the destination address of the
  IPv6 header, so we now have:
  (T, S2) (S3, S2, S1; SL=1) (A, B2)
- at S2, since SL != 0,
  decrease SL to 0
  copy SList[SL] = SList[0] = S3 to the destination address of the
  IPv6 header, so we now have:
  (T, S3) (S3, S2, S1; SL=0) (A, B2)
  according to Section S14 of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.
- Now we apply Section 4.16.1 (PSP).
  Since SL == 0 at this point, Payload length and next header value
  are adjusted, RH is removed, and we now have:
  (T, S3) (A, B2)

It's not clear what will happen next from the text of
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, but is presumably it as
follows?
- The packet will be forwarded to S3
- At S3, since it's the (ultimate) destination of the outper IPv6
  packet, it decapsulates the packet, and we now have:
  (A, B2)
- The decapsulated packet is forwarded towards B2

--
JINMEI, Tatuya


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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:21:47 +1300
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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On 03-Mar-20 09:02, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Brian,
>=20
> The PSP pseudocode is presented as a modification to the End pseudocode=
 starting at line S14 of such.
> Please go through the PSP pseudocode in conjunction with the End pseudo=
code (Section 4.1).=20
> You will see that the ingress state of the packet is (Segments Left =3D=
=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP node's address).

Exactly my point. With SL =3D=3D 1, you are not at the ultimate destinati=
on, so according to what I'll call "Fernando's reading" of RFC8200, you a=
re not entitled to delete the header. That is the point that IMHO needs t=
o be stated explicitly in the draft. You are using "Darren's reading" of =
RFC8200.

I really think you need to say so explicitly. Something like:

Note: this behavior does not contravene section 4 of [RFC8200]
because the current destination address of the incoming packet
is the address of the node executing the PSP behavior.

This will not change the argument, but it will make the issue clear so th=
at we (the IETF) can decide whether to accept it or not. And that is orth=
ogonal to whether RFC 8200 is wrong.

Regards
    Brian
>=20
> Many thanks,
> Pablo.
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian E Carpenter <bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, 2 March 2020 at 20:34
> To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man=
 WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
>=20
>     Darren,
>    =20
>     Regardless of whether you accept Fernando's comment about the inten=
tion of RFC 8200, there is also the fact that the description of the PSP =
flavor cheats by considering the packet to have
>      (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP nod=
e's address).
>     In fact that is *never* the state of the packet on the wire, which =
is either
>      (Segments Left =3D=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP nod=
e's address)
>     or
>      (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D the final n=
ode's address)
>    =20
>     OK, maybe it's not cheating, maybe it's only a side effect of the p=
seudocode, but the fact is that the test "S14.1.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D=
 0) {" in section 4.16.1 is very confusing because it's applied to a pack=
et that is half way through processing of the routing header (Segments Le=
ft has been updated, but Destination Address has not been updated). This =
makes it very unclear how the spec is claiming to interpret RFC 8200.
>    =20
>     Regards
>        Brian Carpenter
>    =20
>     On 03-Mar-20 03:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
>     > What follows has been made clear on the list for a while,=20
>     > I am re-stating it.
>     >=20
>     > The draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming PSP behavior=20
>     > strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
>     > =20
>     >      RFC8200 section 4 says:
>     > =20
>     >      Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header)=
 are not
>     >      *processed, inserted, or deleted* by any node along a packet=
's delivery
>     >      path, until the packet reaches *the node* (or each of the se=
t of nodes,
>     >      in the case of multicast) *identified in the Destination Add=
ress field*
>     >     * of the IPv6 header.*
>     >  =20
>     >=20
>     > The processing, insertion and deletion restrictions only apply=20
>     > =E2=80=9Cuntil the packet reaches the node identified in the Dest=
ination
>     > Address field of the IPv6 header=E2=80=9D.
>     > =20
>     > At the penuptimate segment of the segment list, the endpoint IS
>     > =E2=80=9Cthe node identified in the Destination Address field of =
the IPv6
>     > header=E2=80=9D and hence the PSP operation programmed by the sou=
rce SR=20
>     > node strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
>     >=20
>     >=20
>     > Thanks,
>     >   Darren
>     >=20
>     > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>     > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     > ipv6@ietf.org
>     > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip=
v6
>     > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>     >=20
>    =20
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     ipv6@ietf.org
>     Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6=

>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>    =20
>=20


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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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On 2/3/20 20:21, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 03-Mar-20 09:02, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>> Brian,
>>
>> The PSP pseudocode is presented as a modification to the End pseudocode starting at line S14 of such.
>> Please go through the PSP pseudocode in conjunction with the End pseudocode (Section 4.1).
>> You will see that the ingress state of the packet is (Segments Left == 1 and Destination Address == the PSP node's address).
> 
> Exactly my point. With SL == 1, you are not at the ultimate destination, so according to what I'll call "Fernando's reading" of RFC8200, you are not entitled to delete the header. That is the point that IMHO needs to be stated explicitly in the draft. You are using "Darren's reading" of RFC8200.
> 
> I really think you need to say so explicitly. Something like:
> 
> Note: this behavior does not contravene section 4 of [RFC8200]
> because the current destination address of the incoming packet
> is the address of the node executing the PSP behavior.

A node that does PSP essentially processes the SR header twice. How is 
that compliant with draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header itself?



-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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On 2/3/20 20:21, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 03-Mar-20 09:02, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>> Brian,
>>
>> The PSP pseudocode is presented as a modification to the End pseudocode starting at line S14 of such.
>> Please go through the PSP pseudocode in conjunction with the End pseudocode (Section 4.1).
>> You will see that the ingress state of the packet is (Segments Left == 1 and Destination Address == the PSP node's address).
> 
> Exactly my point. With SL == 1, you are not at the ultimate destination, so according to what I'll call "Fernando's reading" of RFC8200, you are not entitled to delete the header. That is the point that IMHO needs to be stated explicitly in the draft. You are using "Darren's reading" of RFC8200.

FWIW, I don't think there are two ways to read the spec.

Either en-route insertion/deletion is supported, or it isn't.

If it is, RFC8200 should have an explanation of how PMTUD and error 
reporting works. And it doesn't have one.

In that light, I'm curious how folks can state that eh insertion/removal 
is allowed.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Jingrong

I am following what you displayed and it makes sense. In section 4.21.1 for
the PSP flavor what was confusing was it said that the End.X with PSP
flavor can pop the SRH.  The way it=E2=80=99s written,  to me it reads that=
 any P
router can pop the SRH when the last SID is written to the DA. So if the
SRH SID list happens to not steer to the egress PE and ended a few hops
early,  and If PSP is true then the SRH could be popped early on any P
node.  Maybe I am reading to far into the verbiage.  I think since End.X
could be any P transit router what I am saying could happen.

4.21.1 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-prog=
ramming-07#section-4.21.1>.
PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH

   After the instruction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,
   the following instructions must be added:

 1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 & PSP is TRUE
 2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1





   Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When the last SID is written in the
   DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
   first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but
   are not processed as part of the function.


At each hop each node copies the SID to DA and updates the SL =3D SL -1

I am depicting an incoming SL value to each node and then each node updates
the SL pointer along the path hop by hop.

PSP mode

CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} - P2--{SL=3D1} -P3--pop--PE4]----CE2

PSP disabled (USP)

CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} - P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}--PE4 pop]----CE2

USD  (USD) - Decapsulation & forward native packet payload to customer CE

CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} - P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}--PE4 dencap]----CE2

Thanks

Gyan

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 7:59 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <
xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Gyan,
>
> In my understanding, PSP is used right in a P node, works for both End an=
d
> End.X ( I haven=E2=80=99t known End.T very well yet).
>
>
>
> Suppose:
>
> CE1----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----CE2
>
> PE1 encapsulation the customer packet with an outer IPv6 header and an
> SRH, the packet arriving P2 will be:
>
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP2<End>) (SL=3D2, PE4<End.DT4>, P3<End.X>, P2<End>)
>  (customer-packet)
>
>
>
> Then, the packet arriving P3 will be:
>
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP3<End.X>) (SL=3D1, PE4<End.DT4>, P3<End.X>, P2<End>)
>  (customer-packet)
>
>
>
> In Non-PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 like this:
>
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4<End.DT4>) (SL=3D0, PE4<End.DT4>, P3<End.X>, P2<End>)
>  (customer-packet)
>
>
>
> In PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 like this:
>
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4<End.DT4>) (customer-packet)
>
>
>
> For you assumption, =E2=80=9CSince every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or =
SR-MPLS
> identical to MPLS would be both a SR source node and final destination no=
de
> of an LSP.=E2=80=9D
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s always true, you can find an example=
 I was recently
> thinking about in another mail:
> VM----TOR----Spine----Superspine----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----subscribe=
rs.
>
> Even if it is true for some network, the capability to handle the SRH on =
a
> receiving packet is different than the encapsulation of an outer IPv6
> header with an SRH header.
>
> Sending (with encapsulation) and receiving (with
> recognizing/processing/demultiplexing),  they are not necessarily the sam=
e
> ---- like the things to fragment and assembly.
>
> A PE may be well capable of encapsulation everything (like BFD template),
> but may fail to process a little thing that it is unrecognized.
>
> It may just drop any packet with Next Header value other than 4/41/47/etc=
.
>
> It may send such packet with any routing header to its slow-path for the
> compliance but lose the necessary performance.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Jingrong
>
>
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 2, 2020 4:20 AM
> *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* 6man@ietf.org; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
> *Subject:* Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC
> and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
>
>
>
>
> Can you help provide some clarification on the use cases for PSP flavor
> with end.X and end.T functions.
>
>
>
> Under Ref1 where it mentions end.X and end.T functions to use PSP knob  a=
s
> well if desired.
>
>
>
> How would that work with any P node using the PSP function?
>
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programmin=
g-07#section-4.21
>
>
>
>
> 4.21.1
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng-07#section-4.21.1>.
> PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH
>
>
>
>
>
>    After the instruction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,
>
>    the following instructions must be added:
>
>
>
>  1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 & PSP is TRUE
>
>  2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1
>
>
>
> Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When the last SID is written in the
>
>    DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
>
>    first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but
>
>    are not processed as part of the function.
>
>
>
> Also trying to understand the reason given for PSP function for legacy
> final destination egress PE not being SRv6 capable.
>
>
>
> Since every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS
> would be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.  I a=
m
> using the MPLS term LSP with SR as the concept of FEC destination which n=
ow
> is a prefix SID still exists that all traffic to egress final destination
>  PE is forwarded to.
>
>
>
> Since LSPs built to FEC destination are uni directional as they are with
> MPLS  and that would be the case as well for SR paths - the idea that the
> final destination PE would lack hardware capability for SRH processing do=
es
> not make sense as the source and final destination node are one and the
> same.
>
>
>
> Am I missing something?
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <
> xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Got it.
> Thanks for your clarification of your point.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp]
> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM
> To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <
> pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Bob
> Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
> spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and
> move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the
> > understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case
> > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need t=
o
> change accordingly.
>
> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.  It's a pity that we have to discus=
s
> it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also
> responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone
> who involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended =
to
> say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added to a
> packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers cannot
> be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate
> destination".  It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by a
> small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses witho=
ut
> a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the
> underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.
>
> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't immediatel=
y
> mean it (PSP) "needs to change".  It can update RFC8200 with explaining w=
hy
> it's necessary and justified.  That's what I requested as you summarized:
>
> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why
> it's justified.
>
> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposal
> will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH
> insertion.  On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will
> certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'll
> certainly object to it).  In the end, it can easily take much longer, or
> even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200.
>
> --
> JINMEI, Tatuya
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
>
>
--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--000000000000124675059fec11c9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Jingrong=C2=A0<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I am following what you =
displayed and it makes sense. In section 4.21.1 for the PSP flavor what was=
 confusing was it said that the End.X with PSP flavor can pop the SRH.=C2=
=A0 The way it=E2=80=99s written, =C2=A0to me it reads that any P router ca=
n pop the SRH when the last SID is written to the DA. So if the SRH SID lis=
t happens to not steer to the egress PE and ended a few hops early, =C2=A0a=
nd If PSP is true then the SRH could be popped early on any P node.=C2=A0 M=
aybe I am reading to far into the verbiage.=C2=A0 I think since End.X could=
 be any P transit router what I am saying could happen. =C2=A0</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font=
-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><span class=
=3D"h4" style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h4 style=
=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-4.2=
1.1" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network=
-programming-07#section-4.21.1" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none">=
4.21.1</a>.  PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH</h4></span>

   After the instruction &#39;update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]&#39; is execu=
ted,
   the following instructions must be added:

 1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 &amp; PSP is TRUE
 2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1




</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px;break-before:page">   Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When th=
e last SID is written in the
   DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
   first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH&#39;s may be present but
   are not processed as part of the function.</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">At each hop each node copies the SID to DA and =
updates the SL =3D SL -1</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>I am depicting an incoming SL value to each node and then each node update=
s the SL pointer along the path hop by hop.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">PSP mode</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:14px">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">P2--{SL=3D1} -P3=
--pop</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;font-size:14px">--</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">PE4]----CE2</span></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">PSP disabled (USP)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -=C2=A0</span><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:=
14px">P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">--</span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">PE4 pop]--=
--CE2</span><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">USD =C2=A0(USD) - Decapsulation &amp; forward n=
ative packet payload to customer CE</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;font-size:14px">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">P2--{SL=
=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">--</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">PE4 dencap]----CE2</spa=
n></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks=C2=A0<br></p></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 7:59 PM Xiejingrong (J=
ingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejingrong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Gyan,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In my understanding, P=
SP is used right in a P node, works for both End and End.X ( I haven=E2=80=
=99t known End.T very well yet).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Suppose:<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">CE1----[PE1----P2----P=
3----PE4]----CE2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">PE1 encapsulation the =
customer packet with an outer IPv6 header and an SRH, the packet arriving P=
2 will be:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP2&lt;=
End&gt;) (SL=3D2, PE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) =C2=
=A0(customer-packet)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Then, the packet arriv=
ing P3 will be:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP3&lt;=
End.X&gt;) (SL=3D1, PE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) =C2=
=A0(customer-packet)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In Non-PSP mode, the p=
acket will be sent to PE4 like this:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4&lt=
;End.DT4&gt;) (SL=3D0, PE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) =
=C2=A0(customer-packet)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In PSP mode, the packe=
t will be sent to PE4 like this:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4&lt=
;End.DT4&gt;) (customer-packet)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">For you assumption, =
=E2=80=9C</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Since every PE=
 in an SR domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS would
 be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I don=E2=80=99t think =
that=E2=80=99s always true, you can find an example I was recently thinking=
 about in another mail: VM----TOR----Spine----Superspine----[PE1----P2----P=
3----PE4]----subscribers.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Even if it is true for=
 some network, the capability to handle the SRH on a receiving packet is di=
fferent than the encapsulation of an outer IPv6
 header with an SRH header.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sending (with encapsul=
ation) and receiving (with recognizing/processing/demultiplexing), =C2=A0th=
ey are not necessarily the same ---- like the things
 to fragment and assembly.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A PE may be well capab=
le of encapsulation everything (like BFD template), but may fail to process=
 a little thing that it is unrecognized.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US">It may just drop any packet with Next Header value =
other than 4/41/47/etc.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US">It may send such packet with any routing header to =
its slow-path for the compliance but lose the necessary performance.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks</span></p></div=
></div><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Jingrong<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Gyan Mishra [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 2, 2020 4:20 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.=
com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org=
</a>; Bob Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; </span>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif"> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp" target=3D"_blank=
">jinmei@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the L=
C and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Jingrong,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Can you help provide some clari=
fication on the use cases for PSP flavor with end.X and end.T functions.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Under Ref1 where it mentions en=
d.X and end.T functions to use PSP knob =C2=A0as well if desired.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How would that work with any P =
node using the PSP function?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-4.2=
1" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;HelveticaNeue&quot;,s=
erif">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-progra=
mming-07#section-4.21</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<h4><a name=3D"m_-2962480811839953522_m_-8282060039690718609_m_-48476431018=
413"></a><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-=
network-programming-07#section-4.21.1" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none">4.21.1</span></a><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">.=C2=A0
 PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH<u></u><u></u></span></h4>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">=C2=A0=C2=A0 After the in=
struction &#39;update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]&#39; is executed,<u></u><u><=
/u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">=C2=A0=C2=A0 the followin=
g instructions must be added:<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"> 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0 IF update=
d SL =3D 0 &amp; PSP is TRUE<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"> 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 pop the top SRH=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; Ref1<u></u><u></u></span></pr=
e>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Ref1: The received SRH ha=
d SL=3D1.=C2=A0 When the last SID is written in the<u></u><u></u></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">=C2=A0=C2=A0 DA, the End,=
 End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the<u></u><u></u></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">=C2=A0=C2=A0 first (top-m=
ost) SRH.=C2=A0 Subsequent stacked SRH&#39;s may be present but<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">=C2=A0=C2=A0 are not proc=
essed as part of the function.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Also tr=
ying to understand the reason given for PSP function for legacy final desti=
nation egress PE not being SRv6 capable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Since e=
very PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS would be bot=
h a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.=C2=A0 I am using t=
he MPLS term LSP with SR as the concept of
 FEC destination which now is a prefix SID still exists that all traffic to=
 egress final destination =C2=A0PE is forwarded to.=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Since L=
SPs built to FEC destination are uni directional as they are with MPLS =C2=
=A0and that would be the case as well for SR paths - the idea that the fina=
l destination PE would lack hardware capability
 for SRH processing does not make sense as the source and final destination=
 node are one and the same.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Am I mi=
ssing something?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Kind Re=
gards=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Gyan<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM=
 Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Got it.<br>
Thanks for your clarification of your point. <br>
<br>
Jingrong<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: </span>=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89<span lang=3D"EN-US"> [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp" target=3D"_blank">jinmei@wide.ad.j=
p</a>]
<br>
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM<br>
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" target=3D"_blank">mel=
lon@fugue.com</a>&gt;; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pca=
maril@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pcamaril@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Brian E Carp=
enter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Bob Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">b=
ob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joel=
halpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
6man@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and m=
ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
<br>
At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,<br>
&quot;Xiejingrong (Jingrong)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei=
.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the <br>
&gt; understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case <=
br>
&gt; the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need =
to change accordingly.<br>
<br>
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It&#39;s a pity that we have to=
 discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also r=
esponsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone wh=
o involved the discussion should know the
 intent of this text intended to say (borrowing from Ron&#39;s text) &quot;=
Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its sou=
rce node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has=
 arrived at its ultimate destination&quot;.=C2=A0 It
 might look &quot;an attempt of blocking an innovation by a small group of =
vocal fundamentalists&quot;, but if you see the responses without a bias, y=
ou&#39;d notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the underlyi=
ng SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn&#39;t imme=
diately mean it (PSP) &quot;needs to change&quot;.=C2=A0 It can update RFC8=
200 with explaining why it&#39;s necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That&#39;s =
what I requested as you summarized:<br>
<br>
&gt; Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why =
it&#39;s justified.<br>
<br>
And, since PSP at least wouldn&#39;t break PMTUD, I guess the update propos=
al will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH i=
nsertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there&#39;s no violation will=
 certainly trigger many appeals and objections
 at the IETF last call (I&#39;ll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end,=
 it can easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an up=
date to RFC8200.<br>
<br>
--<br>
JINMEI, Tatuya<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Network Engineering &amp; Tech=
nology=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Verizon=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Phone: 301 502-1347</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Email:
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font si=
ze=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=
=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=
=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" =
face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fon=
t size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20=
904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D=
"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.=
com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000124675059fec11c9--


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Hi Barry,
At 12:35 PM 02-03-2020, Barry Leiba wrote:
>- We need to just let this stuff go and not worry about it.

Thanks.  I was a bit worried about whether the old statement was 
still applicable.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 


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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Thread-Topic: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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> On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:43, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFI have no information about the situation but I do not =
understand why an AD would be declaring consensus in any case -=20
>> that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.  see RFC 2418 =
section 3.3=20
>=20
> The only active/available WG chair was a co-author of this draft.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Sander
>=20
>=20


As a WGC that has been in a position where the chairs had a CoI, I(we) =
asked the WG Secretary to manage the document, and that is what other =
WGs do. Look at the DetNet data plane drafts as an example. That means =
that the decision is taken at the lowest level and leaves the AD =
continue in the oversight role.

Anyway from the discussion on the list this probably need to go for =
review by the other two RTG ADs to check that they are happy with the =
decision or to recommend some other action.

- Stewart



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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
CC: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM7C.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 15:48:26 +0100
From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 14:48:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
CC: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Thread-Index: AQHV8SYRioYsdxC490G2h5UwCnzbIag2+5OA
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 15:18:06 +0000
Message-ID: <C17C24ED-52D3-4C0F-A533-A5C6F9EEE75E@cisco.com>
References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <CAJE_bqcTNWt==mtYKeNVXOBAzBNLG=+_mXQQ9xMHYOCDRqCb_Q@mail.gmail.com> <8ef02a5465104d1996546bc4cbea7ebb@huawei.com> <CABNhwV1MZgvVTDH+32Q0DViwP43U=XUHD61DVeLbnA4_3-oq8g@mail.gmail.com> <cc81dc2fbd4c4e3db3c1d2259386bf00@huawei.com> <CABNhwV1RvwpOt_r-N8bs2oz0Fdc1xK5WTF=YcXALYBC3JfJ2cg@mail.gmail.com> <313b67ff32e14597adf2ef62ee267718@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Fernando=20

> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; 'ietf@ietf.org'; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra=
mming
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> Martin,
>=20
> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim that=
=20
> this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills for=20
> evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is including=20
> in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>
> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/=
):
>=20
> ---- cut here ----
> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to=
=20
> the benefit of PSP.
> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its=
=20
> level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It=20
> may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"=20
> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a=20
> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing=20
> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I=20
> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of=20
> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
> ---- cut here ----
>=20
>=20
> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it=20
> cannot really understand?


There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan (network o=
perator) & Jingrong (vendor).
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/

My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of final destin=
ation.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate, e.g. in term of p=
acket processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your hardware".

And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not want to spe=
ak for Joel)
"Do you have any comments on what appears to be the significant increase=20
in complexity on the device performing PSP?  The question I am trying to=20
get at is about the tradeoff, which needs one to evaluate both sides."
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNggo/


So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load of final =
destination.".

Thanks,
--Bruno
=20
> Thanks,
> Fernando
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> > WG,
> >=20
> > as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating=20
> > consensus for this WG LC.
> >=20
> > I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that=
=20
> > disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text=
=20
> > of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an=20
> > optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, =
I=20
> > have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent b=
y=20
> > the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> >=20
> > My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to=
=20
> > move this document to the next stage.
> >=20
> > Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
> >=20
> >=20
> > Martin
> >=20
> >=20
> > [1]=20
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcs=
o/
> > [2]=20
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ=
0/
> > [3]=20
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKB=
c/
> >=20
> > Le 2019-12-05 =E0 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a =E9crit :
> >> Hello SPRING,
> >>
> >> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on=20
> >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
> >>
> >> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,=
=20
> >> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 2=
0.
> >>
> >> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not=20
> >> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are=
=20
> >> only spring specifics.
> >>
> >> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically=20
> >> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread=20
> >> for this point.
> >>
> >> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point=
=20
> >> and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted=
=20
> >> into parallel independent discussions)
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >>
> >> Bruno
> >>
> >> [1]=20
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
-05
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________=20
> >>
> >>
> >> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> >> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> >> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
=20
> >> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> >> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les=20
> >> messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> >> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere,=20
> >> deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> >>
> >> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
> >> privileged information that may be protected by law;
> >> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> >> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
=20
> >> delete this message and its attachments.
> >> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have=
=20
> >> been modified, changed or falsified.
> >> Thank you.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> spring mailing list
> >> spring@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >>
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > spring mailing list
> > spring@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> > .
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Fernando Gont
> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
CC: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 16:07:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work around, so 
I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of itself, 
enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.

At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for compliant 
devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been 
pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not 
because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted routing 
header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take care of 
devices which violate a standard again requires some strong evidence to 
justify it.

So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the value 
for PSP.

I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual 
solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature to a 
separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming 
draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or programming 
behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this flavor.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> Fernando
> 
>> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
>> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
>> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; 'ietf@ietf.org'; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> Martin,
>>
>> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim that
>> this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills for
>> evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is including
>> in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>>
>> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
>>
>> ---- cut here ----
>> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to
>> the benefit of PSP.
>> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its
>> level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It
>> may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
>> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing
>> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I
>> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of
>> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
>> ---- cut here ----
>>
>>
>> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it
>> cannot really understand?
> 
> 
> There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/
> 
> My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate, e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
> One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your hardware".
> 
> And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not want to speak for Joel)
> "Do you have any comments on what appears to be the significant increase
> in complexity on the device performing PSP?  The question I am trying to
> get at is about the tradeoff, which needs one to evaluate both sides."
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNggo/
> 
> 
> So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load of final destination.".
> 
> Thanks,
> --Bruno
>   
>> Thanks,
>> Fernando
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
>>> WG,
>>>
>>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
>>> consensus for this WG LC.
>>>
>>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that
>>> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text
>>> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an
>>> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I
>>> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by
>>> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>>>
>>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to
>>> move this document to the next stage.
>>>
>>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
>>> [2]
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
>>> [3]
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
>>>
>>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a écrit :
>>>> Hello SPRING,
>>>>
>>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>>>
>>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,
>>>> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
>>>>
>>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not
>>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are
>>>> only spring specifics.
>>>>
>>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically
>>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread
>>>> for this point.
>>>>
>>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point
>>>> and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted
>>>> into parallel independent discussions)
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Fernando Gont
>> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
>> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>>
>>
>>
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> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> 
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> 


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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:25:45 -0500
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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>,  "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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I read the updated version 11 and the verbiage looks very good and provides
all the necessary clarity in the process.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11#s=
ection-4.16.1

For 6MAN in terms of RFC 8200 as Brian Carpenter mentioned and noticed in
assistance in adding to the latest verbiage it really helped.

The key is that to the PSP node the incoming SL is 1 - but after the final
DA is copied the SL pointer is updated so  the outgoing SL is 0  - this
satisfying the pseudocode criteria and RFC 8200 to remove the SRH since the
final DA is now set.


If you look at this before the packet is received then it appears as in
flight and not final destination so it may appear not in RFC 8200
conformance which has been the contention all along.  However,  if you look
at it after PSP node has received and processed the PSP function psuedocode
you are now in RFC 8200 conformance.


Kind regards

Gyan


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:18 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Jingrong, I notified Gyan yesterday that the version he was reviewing
> was over a year old.
> I expect when Gyan reviews the current version it should clear up any
> lingering questions.
>
> Darren
>
> On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:34 AM, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.co=
m>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Gyan,
> What revision are you reading ?
> I found the 4.21.1 only in its very early revision (-00 and -01).
> There is only 4.16 and the PSP is introduced in 4.16.1 in the latest draf=
t
> is rev-11 :
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> And I think the explanation of =E2=80=9CA penultimate SR Segment Endpoint=
 Node=E2=80=9D in
> the latest rev is helpful to understand better:
>    SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the
>    Destination Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its SID
>    address.  A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is one that, as part
>    of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH into the IPv6
>    Destination Address and decrements Segments Left value from one to
>    zero.
>
> Thanks
> Jingrong
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>=
]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 3, 2020 12:52 PM
> *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* 6man@ietf.org; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
> *Subject:* Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC
> and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
> Hi Jingrong
>
> I am following what you displayed and it makes sense. In section 4.21.1
> for the PSP flavor what was confusing was it said that the End.X with PSP
> flavor can pop the SRH.  The way it=E2=80=99s written,  to me it reads th=
at any P
> router can pop the SRH when the last SID is written to the DA. So if the
> SRH SID list happens to not steer to the egress PE and ended a few hops
> early,  and If PSP is true then the SRH could be popped early on any P
> node.  Maybe I am reading to far into the verbiage.  I think since End.X
> could be any P transit router what I am saying could happen.
>
> 4.21.1
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng-07#section-4.21.1>.
> PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH
>
>
>
>
>
>    After the instruction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,
>
>    the following instructions must be added:
>
>
>
>  1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 & PSP is TRUE
>
>  2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When the last SID is written in th=
e
>
>    DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
>
>    first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but
>
>    are not processed as part of the function.
>
>
> At each hop each node copies the SID to DA and updates the SL =3D SL -1
>
> I am depicting an incoming SL value to each node and then each node
> updates the SL pointer along the path hop by hop.
>
> PSP mode
>
> CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} - P2--{SL=3D1} -P3--pop--PE4]----CE2
>
> PSP disabled (USP)
>
> CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} - P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}--PE4 pop]----CE2
>
> USD  (USD) - Decapsulation & forward native packet payload to customer CE
>
> CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} - P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}--PE4 dencap]----CE2
>
> Thanks
>
> Gyan
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 7:59 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <
> xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Gyan,
> In my understanding, PSP is used right in a P node, works for both End an=
d
> End.X ( I haven=E2=80=99t known End.T very well yet).
>
> Suppose:
> CE1----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----CE2
> PE1 encapsulation the customer packet with an outer IPv6 header and an
> SRH, the packet arriving P2 will be:
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP2<End>) (SL=3D2, PE4<End.DT4>, P3<End.X>, P2<End>)
>  (customer-packet)
>
> Then, the packet arriving P3 will be:
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP3<End.X>) (SL=3D1, PE4<End.DT4>, P3<End.X>, P2<End>)
>  (customer-packet)
>
> In Non-PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 like this:
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4<End.DT4>) (SL=3D0, PE4<End.DT4>, P3<End.X>, P2<End>)
>  (customer-packet)
>
> In PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 like this:
> (SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4<End.DT4>) (customer-packet)
>
> For you assumption, =E2=80=9CSince every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or =
SR-MPLS
> identical to MPLS would be both a SR source node and final destination no=
de
> of an LSP.=E2=80=9D
> I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s always true, you can find an example=
 I was recently
> thinking about in another mail:
> VM----TOR----Spine----Superspine----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----subscribe=
rs.
> Even if it is true for some network, the capability to handle the SRH on =
a
> receiving packet is different than the encapsulation of an outer IPv6
> header with an SRH header.
> Sending (with encapsulation) and receiving (with
> recognizing/processing/demultiplexing),  they are not necessarily the sam=
e
> ---- like the things to fragment and assembly.
> A PE may be well capable of encapsulation everything (like BFD template),
> but may fail to process a little thing that it is unrecognized.
>
> It may just drop any packet with Next Header value other than 4/41/47/etc=
.
>
> It may send such packet with any routing header to its slow-path for the
> compliance but lose the necessary performance.
>
> Thanks
> Jingrong
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 2, 2020 4:20 AM
> *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* 6man@ietf.org; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
> *Subject:* Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC
> and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
>
> Can you help provide some clarification on the use cases for PSP flavor
> with end.X and end.T functions.
>
> Under Ref1 where it mentions end.X and end.T functions to use PSP knob  a=
s
> well if desired.
>
> How would that work with any P node using the PSP function?
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programmin=
g-07#section-4.21
>
>
>
> 4.21.1
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng-07#section-4.21.1>.
> PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH
>
>
>
>
>
>    After the instruction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,
>
>    the following instructions must be added:
>
>
>
>  1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 & PSP is TRUE
>
>  2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1
>
>
>
> Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When the last SID is written in the
>
>    DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the
>
>    first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but
>
>    are not processed as part of the function.
>
>
> Also trying to understand the reason given for PSP function for legacy
> final destination egress PE not being SRv6 capable.
>
> Since every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS
> would be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.  I a=
m
> using the MPLS term LSP with SR as the concept of FEC destination which n=
ow
> is a prefix SID still exists that all traffic to egress final destination
>  PE is forwarded to.
>
> Since LSPs built to FEC destination are uni directional as they are with
> MPLS  and that would be the case as well for SR paths - the idea that the
> final destination PE would lack hardware capability for SRH processing do=
es
> not make sense as the source and final destination node are one and the
> same.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Gyan
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <
> xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Got it.
> Thanks for your clarification of your point.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp]
> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM
> To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <
> pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Bob
> Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
> spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and
> move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the
> > understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case
> > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need t=
o
> change accordingly.
>
> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.  It's a pity that we have to discus=
s
> it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also
> responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone
> who involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended =
to
> say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added to a
> packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers cannot
> be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate
> destination".  It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by a
> small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses witho=
ut
> a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the
> underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.
>
> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't immediatel=
y
> mean it (PSP) "needs to change".  It can update RFC8200 with explaining w=
hy
> it's necessary and justified.  That's what I requested as you summarized:
>
> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why
> it's justified.
>
> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposal
> will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH
> insertion.  On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will
> certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'll
> certainly object to it).  In the end, it can easily take much longer, or
> even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200.
>
> --
> JINMEI, Tatuya
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Gyan  Mishra
> Network Engineering & Technology
> Verizon
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
> Phone: 301 502-1347
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
> --
> Gyan  Mishra
> Network Engineering & Technology
> Verizon
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
> Phone: 301 502-1347
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
> --

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I read the updated version 11 and the verb=
iage looks very good and provides all the necessary clarity in the process.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><a href=3D"https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-11#section-=
4.16.1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing-11#section-4.16.1</a></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For 6MAN in term=
s of RFC 8200 as Brian Carpenter mentioned and noticed in assistance in add=
ing to the latest verbiage it really helped.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">The key is that to the PSP node the incoming SL is 1 -=
 but after the final DA is copied the SL pointer is updated so =C2=A0the ou=
tgoing SL is 0 =C2=A0- this satisfying the pseudocode criteria and RFC 8200=
 to remove the SRH since the final DA is now set. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If you look at=
 this before the packet is received then it appears as in flight and not fi=
nal destination so it may appear not in RFC 8200 conformance which has been=
 the contention all along.=C2=A0 However, =C2=A0if you look at it after PSP=
 node has received and processed the PSP function psuedocode you are now in=
 RFC 8200 conformance.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind regards=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2=
020 at 10:18 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@cisco.co=
m">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
Hi Jingrong, I notified Gyan yesterday that the version he was reviewing wa=
s over a year old.
<div>I expect when Gyan reviews the current version it should clear up any =
lingering questions.</div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-bre=
ak:after-white-space">
<div><br>
<div>
<div>
<div>Darren</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:34 AM, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:CourierNewPSMT;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none">
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Gyan,<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">What revision are you reading ?<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I found the 4.21.1 only in its very early revision=
 (-00 and -01).<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There is only 4.16 and the PSP is introduced in 4.=
16.1 in the latest draft is rev-11 :<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-s=
pring-srv6-network-programming</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></=
u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">And I think the explanation of =E2=80=9CA penultim=
ate SR Segment Endpoint Node=E2=80=9D in the latest rev is helpful to under=
stand better:<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the=
 IPv6 packet with the<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address field of the IPv6=
 Header equal to its SID<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 address.=C2=A0 A penultimate SR Segme=
nt Endpoint Node is one that, as part<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the SID processing, copies the las=
t SID from the SRH into the IPv6<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address and decrements Se=
gments Left value from one to<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 zero.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jingrong<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</span>Gyan Mishra
 [<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank">mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>]<span>=
=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, March 3, 2020 12:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
iejingrong@huawei.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>; Bo=
b Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<=
span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>;<span>=C2=
=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=
=E5=93=89</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.j=
p" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">jinme=
i@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Requ=
est to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net=
work-programming<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Jingrong=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">I am following what you displayed and it makes sense. =
In section 4.21.1 for the PSP flavor what was confusing was it said that th=
e End.X with PSP flavor can pop the SRH.=C2=A0 The way it=E2=80=99s written=
, =C2=A0to me it reads that any P router can
 pop the SRH when the last SID is written to the DA. So if the SRH SID list=
 happens to not steer to the egress PE and ended a few hops early, =C2=A0an=
d If PSP is true then the SRH could be popped early on any P node.=C2=A0 Ma=
ybe I am reading to far into the verbiage.=C2=A0
 I think since End.X could be any P transit router what I am saying could h=
appen. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<h4 style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;font-weight:bold">
<a name=3D"m_-445444912146374629_section-4.21.1"></a><a href=3D"https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-=
4.21.1" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"text-decoration:none">4.21.1</span></a><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">.=C2=A0
 PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH<u></u><u></u></span></h4>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0 After the instruction &#39;upd=
ate the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]&#39; is executed,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0 the following instructions mus=
t be added:<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0 IF updated SL =3D 0 &amp; P=
SP is TRUE<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 pop the t=
op SRH=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; Ref1<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93;break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ref1: The re=
ceived SRH had SL=3D1.=C2=A0 When the last SID is written in the<u></u><u><=
/u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0 DA, the End, End.X and End.T f=
unctions with the PSP flavour pop the<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0 first (top-most) SRH.=C2=A0 Su=
bsequent stacked SRH&#39;s may be present but<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0 are not processed as part of t=
he function.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">At each hop each node copies the SID to DA and updates=
 the SL =3D SL -1<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">I am depicting an incoming SL value to each node and t=
hen each node updates the SL pointer along the path hop by hop.<u></u><u></=
u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">PSP mode<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -=C2=A0P2--{SL=3D1} -P3--p=
op--PE4]----CE2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">PSP disabled (USP)<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -=C2=A0P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---=
{SL=3D0}--PE4 pop]----CE2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">USD =C2=A0(USD) - Decapsulation &amp; forward native p=
acket payload to customer CE<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -=C2=A0P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---=
{SL=3D0}--PE4 dencap]----CE2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Gyan<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 7:59 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.=
8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Gyan,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In my understanding, PSP is used right in a P node=
, works for both End and End.X ( I haven=E2=80=99t known End.T very well ye=
t).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Suppose:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CE1----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----CE2</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">PE1 encapsulation the customer packet with an oute=
r IPv6 header and an SRH, the packet arriving P2 will be:</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP2&lt;End&gt;) (SL=3D2, PE4&lt;End=
.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) =C2=A0(customer-packet)</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Then, the packet arriving P3 will be:</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP3&lt;End.X&gt;) (SL=3D1, PE4&lt;E=
nd.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) =C2=A0(customer-packet)</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In Non-PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 li=
ke this:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;) (SL=3D0, PE4&l=
t;End.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) =C2=A0(customer-packet)</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 like t=
his:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;) (customer-pack=
et)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">For you assumption, =E2=80=9C</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Since every PE in an SR domain both SR=
v6 or SR-MPLS identical
 to MPLS would be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LS=
P.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=E2=80=9D</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s always true, =
you can find an example I was recently thinking about in another mail: VM--=
--TOR----Spine----Superspine----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----subscribers.</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Even if it is true for some network, the capabilit=
y to handle the SRH on a receiving packet is different than the encapsulati=
on of an outer IPv6
 header with an SRH header.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sending (with encapsulation) and receiving (with r=
ecognizing/processing/demultiplexing), =C2=A0they are not necessarily the s=
ame ---- like the things
 to fragment and assembly.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">A PE may be well capable of encapsulation everythi=
ng (like BFD template), but may fail to process a little thing that it is u=
nrecognized.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<p style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=
=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">It may just drop any packet with Next Header value oth=
er than 4/41/47/etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=
=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">It may send such packet with any routing header to its=
 slow-path for the compliance but lose the necessary performance.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jingrong</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</span>Gyan Mishra
 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>]<span>=
=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Monday, March 2, 2020 4:20 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
iejingrong@huawei.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>; Bo=
b Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<=
span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>;<span>=C2=
=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=
=E5=93=89</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.j=
p" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">jinme=
i@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Requ=
est to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net=
work-programming</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Jingrong,<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Can you help provide some clarification on the use cas=
es for PSP flavor with end.X and end.T functions.<u></u><u></u></span></div=
>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Under Ref1 where it mentions end.X and end.T functions=
 to use PSP knob =C2=A0as well if desired.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">How would that work with any P node using the PSP func=
tion?<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)"><a href=3D"ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07=
#section-4.21" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue">https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-4.21</span></a>=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<h4 style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;font-weight:bold">
<a name=3D"m_-445444912146374629_m_-2962480811839953522_m_-82820600396907">=
</a><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsf=
ils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-4.21.1" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"text-decorati=
on:none">4.21.1</span></a><span style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">.=C2=A0
 PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH</span><u></u><u></u></span></h4>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
After the instruction &#39;update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]&#39; is executed=
,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
the following instructions must be added:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)"> 1.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 IF updated SL =3D 0 &amp; PSP is TRUE</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)"> 2.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 pop the top SRH=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; Ref1</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Ref1: The rec=
eived SRH had SL=3D1.=C2=A0 When the last SID is written in the</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
first (top-most) SRH.=C2=A0 Subsequent stacked SRH&#39;s may be present but=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
are not processed as part of the function.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Also trying to understan=
d the reason given for PSP function for legacy final destination egress PE =
not being SRv6 capable.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></d=
iv>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Since every PE in an SR =
domain both SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS would be both a SR source nod=
e and final destination node of an LSP.=C2=A0 I am using the MPLS term LSP =
with SR as the concept of FEC
 destination which now is a prefix SID still exists that all traffic to egr=
ess final destination =C2=A0PE is forwarded to.=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Since LSPs built to FEC =
destination are uni directional as they are with MPLS =C2=A0and that would =
be the case as well for SR paths - the idea that the final destination PE w=
ould lack hardware capability
 for SRH processing does not make sense as the source and final destination=
 node are one and the same.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Am I missing something?<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Kind Regards=C2=A0</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)">Gyan</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm=
 5pt 4.8pt">
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Got it.<br>
Thanks for your clarification of your point.<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<br>
Jingrong<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From:<span>=C2=A0</span></span>=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89<span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><span>=C2=A0</span>[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">jinmei=
@wide.ad.jp</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM<br>
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">xiejingron=
g@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt;; Pab=
lo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisco.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">pcamaril@cisco.co=
m</a>&gt;;
 Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpe=
nter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Bob Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.c=
om" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">bob.=
hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>=
&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>;<span>=C2=A0</span><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and m=
ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
<br>
At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,<br>
&quot;Xiejingrong (Jingrong)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei=
.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">xi=
ejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the<span>=
=C2=A0</span><br>
&gt; understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case<s=
pan>=C2=A0</span><br>
&gt; the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need =
to change accordingly.<br>
<br>
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It&#39;s a pity that we have to=
 discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also r=
esponsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone wh=
o involved the discussion should know the
 intent of this text intended to say (borrowing from Ron&#39;s text) &quot;=
Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its sou=
rce node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has=
 arrived at its ultimate destination&quot;.=C2=A0 It
 might look &quot;an attempt of blocking an innovation by a small group of =
vocal fundamentalists&quot;, but if you see the responses without a bias, y=
ou&#39;d notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the underlyi=
ng SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn&#39;t imme=
diately mean it (PSP) &quot;needs to change&quot;.=C2=A0 It can update RFC8=
200 with explaining why it&#39;s necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That&#39;s =
what I requested as you summarized:<br>
<br>
&gt; Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why =
it&#39;s justified.<br>
<br>
And, since PSP at least wouldn&#39;t break PMTUD, I guess the update propos=
al will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH i=
nsertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there&#39;s no violation will=
 certainly trigger many appeals and objections
 at the IETF last call (I&#39;ll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end,=
 it can easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an up=
date to RFC8200.<br>
<br>
--<br>
JINMEI, Tatuya<br>
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<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
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=E4=BD=93">
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one: 301 502-1347</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
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ail:<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" style=
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To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Note, I said "is not usually, in and of itself".  Recognizing that there 
are exceptions.  There appears to be significant disagreement as to 
whether the MPLS case was a good one. )There are lots of other aspects 
for that case which do not apply here.)

Yours,
Joel

On 3/3/2020 12:17 PM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 5:24 PM
>> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work around, so
>> I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of itself,
>> enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.
> 
> I can't speak on 'usually', but it certainly happened before. Cf the "Penultimate Hop Popping" section in RFC3031 (MPLS):
> 
> "   However, some hardware switching engines may not be able to pop the
>     label stack, so this cannot be universally required."
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3031#section-3.16
> 
> Yours,
> --Bruno
> 
>> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for compliant
>> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been
>> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not
>> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted routing
>> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take care of
>> devices which violate a standard again requires some strong evidence to
>> justify it.
>>
>> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the value
>> for PSP.
>>
>> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual
>> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature to a
>> separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming
>> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or programming
>> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this flavor.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>>> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
>>>> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; 'ietf@ietf.org'; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>>
>>>> Martin,
>>>>
>>>> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim that
>>>> this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills for
>>>> evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is including
>>>> in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>>>>
>>>> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
>>>>
>>>> ---- cut here ----
>>>> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to
>>>> the benefit of PSP.
>>>> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its
>>>> level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It
>>>> may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
>>>> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>>>> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing
>>>> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I
>>>> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of
>>>> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
>>>> ---- cut here ----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it
>>>> cannot really understand?
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/
>>>
>>> My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate, e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
>>> One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your hardware".
>>>
>>> And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not want to speak for Joel)
>>> "Do you have any comments on what appears to be the significant increase
>>> in complexity on the device performing PSP?  The question I am trying to
>>> get at is about the tradeoff, which needs one to evaluate both sides."
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNggo/
>>>
>>>
>>> So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load of final destination.".
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --Bruno
>>>    
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Fernando
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
>>>>> WG,
>>>>>
>>>>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
>>>>> consensus for this WG LC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that
>>>>> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text
>>>>> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an
>>>>> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I
>>>>> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by
>>>>> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>>>>>
>>>>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to
>>>>> move this document to the next stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
>>>>> [2]
>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
>>>>> [3]
>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a écrit :
>>>>>> Hello SPRING,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>>>>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,
>>>>>> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not
>>>>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are
>>>>>> only spring specifics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically
>>>>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread
>>>>>> for this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point
>>>>>> and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted
>>>>>> into parallel independent discussions)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
>>>>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
>>>>>> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les
>>>>>> messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere,
>>>>>> deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
>>>>>> privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
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>>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have
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>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> spring mailing list
>>>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> spring mailing list
>>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Fernando Gont
>>>> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
>>>> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> spring mailing list
>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>>   
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> 
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
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> 


From nobody Tue Mar  3 10:41:36 2020
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Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>,  6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Bruno,

> Good.
> How do you propose that we get an evaluation and formal answer from the IE=
SG on this point?
> My proposal is to ask while asking the IESG review on draft-ietf-spring-sr=
v6-network-programming.

I think it's important that the answer can be used to improve the draft, so w=
hatever works for that. That should be done before we can discuss consensus.=
=20

Cheers,
Sander=


From nobody Tue Mar  3 11:30:32 2020
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From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/N4lfgQA1TT4wrIhy3wjGw1pm48k>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 21:10:44 +0100
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To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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--0000000000009dc5a3059ff8e627
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Ron,

>   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.

Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.

MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last
label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the
egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).

>  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP

But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
word :)

Kind regards,
R.


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a
> clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we
> are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
> different story.
>
>
>                                                             Ron
>

--0000000000009dc5a3059ff8e627
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ron,</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true a=
t all.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>MPLS PHP does not remove label stack.=
 MPLS PHP is just used to pop last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=
=C2=A0with remaining label stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can comp=
are MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>But I a=
gree with that. Both operations have very little in common from packet&#39;=
s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except &quot;penultimate&quot;=
 word :)</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>R.</div><div><br>=
</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:4=
0juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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--_000_E6BE5ABDFEE74814A2E29CF7C343F40Dciscocom_--


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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
References: <39544C17-1AD0-412E-A8BD-E17376537FCF@cisco.com> <bf9d68e6-cbae-2b19-11e0-1e452f0bf654@gmail.com> <FD806998-8218-4C70-B383-332C5F934A73@cisco.com> <176e9bbf-41c8-8e8a-f26e-e0de5d89735f@gmail.com> <23291_1583246906_5E5E6E3A_23291_112_19_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD7F0D@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E6BE5ABD-FEE7-4814-A2E2-9CF7C343F40D@cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Right, let's get the text clarified. Whether or not the IETF (not just th=
ese two WGs, which plainly cannot agree) accepts or refuses this interpre=
tation of RFC 8200 is a separate question.

Regards
   Brian

On 04-Mar-20 09:37, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Brian, Bruno,
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Many thanks for your comments.
>=20
> Based on the feedback I would propose to add Brian's proposed text as i=
s into the draft.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> 4.16.1.=C2=A0 PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 SR Segment Endpoint Nodes advertise the SIDs instantiated =
on them via
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 control plane protocols as described in Section 8.=C2=A0 D=
ifferent
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 behavior ids are allocated for flavored and unflavored SID=
s [Table 4]
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 such that an SR Source Node can identify PSP-flavored SIDs=
 as such.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The PSP flavor is specifically used by the Source SR Node =
when it
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 needs to instruct the penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node=
 listed in
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the SRH to remove the SRH from the IPv6 header.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the=

>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its =
SID
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 address.=C2=A0 A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is o=
ne that, as part
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH in=
to the IPv6
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address and decrements Segments Left value fro=
m one to
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 zero.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The PSP operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Seg=
ment
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Endpoint Node and does not happen at any Transit Node.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The SRH processing of the End, End.X and End.T behaviors a=
re
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 modified: after the instruction "S14.=C2=A0 Update IPv6 DA=
 with Segment
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 List[Segments Left]" is executed, the following instructio=
ns must be
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 executed as well:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> S14.1.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>=20
> S14.2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Update the Next Header field in th=
e preceding header to the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Next Header value of the SRH
>=20
> S14.3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Decrease the IPv6 header Payload L=
ength by the Hdr Ext Len
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value of the SRH
>=20
> S14.4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Remove the SRH from the IPv6 exten=
sion header chain
>=20
> S14.5.=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The usage of PSP does not increase the MTU of the IPv6 pac=
ket and
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 hence does not have any impact on the PMTU discovery mecha=
nism.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 As a reminder, [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header] defi=
nes in
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 section 5 the SR Deployment Model within the SR Domain [RF=
C8402].
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Within this framework, the Authentication Header (AH) is n=
ot used to
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 secure the SRH as described in Section 7.5 of
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header].
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> *<NEW>*
>=20
> *This behavior does not contravene section 4 of [RFC8200]*
>=20
> *because the current destination address of the incoming packet*
>=20
> *is the address of the node executing the PSP behavior.*
>=20
> *</NEW>*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Additionally, please find some replies inline to the comments from Brun=
o [PC2].
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Pablo.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>=20
> Date: Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 15:49
>=20
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpente=
r <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=20
> Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man=
 WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
>=20
> Subject: RE: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pablo,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0My reading is that Brian is asking for a clarif=
ication of the text, not a change in the behavior.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In general, I think that clarification is good and t=
hat Brian's request is reasonable.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Related to Brian's comment, but on top of them,=
 I have further points on this section 4.16.1:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01)
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 " S14.1.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {"
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Although I agree that reading the whole pseudo =
code (split across the whole document) is self-descriptive, there is the =
opportunity for people to misread and confuse "Segment Left in the receiv=
ed packet" with "Updated Segment Left". I'd like to avoid misunderstandin=
g similar to the ones in RFC 8200. Could you propose something? E.g.=C2=A0=
 :s/ Segments Left/ Updated Segments Left.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> PC2: In previous versions of this document we used the term =E2=80=9Cup=
dated SL=E2=80=9D. As part of the WGLC we changed this text in December t=
o =E2=80=9CSegments Left=E2=80=9D since it is the name of the field defin=
ed in the SRH. While I do find the =E2=80=9CUpdated Segments Left=E2=80=9D=
 easier to understand, the working group feedback wasn=E2=80=99t the same=
 in December. Hence I would tend to keep it as is. But no strong preferen=
ce on my side really.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2)
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As a possible change to try to address Brian's comme=
nt
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OLD:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The PSP operation only takes place=
 at a penultimate SR Segment
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Endpoint Node and does not happen =
at any Transit Node.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0NEW:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The PSP operation only takes place=
 at a penultimate SR Segment
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Endpoint Node (where Segment Left =
=3D=3D 1) and does not happen at any Transit Node.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> PC2: Given the new text added, and given that we already have this, do =
we need it?
>=20
> *A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node*is one that, as part
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH in=
to the IPv6
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address and *decrements Segments Left value fr=
om one to*
>=20
> *=C2=A0=C2=A0 zero.*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 More inline
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> On 03-Mar-20 09:02, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril=
) wrote:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Brian,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> > The PSP pseudocode is presented as a modifi=
cation to the End pseudocode starting at line S14 of such.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Please go through the PSP pseudocode in conjunct=
ion with the End pseudocode (Section 4.1).
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> > You will see that the ingress state of the =
packet is (Segments Left =3D=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP =
node's address).
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> Exactly my point. With SL =3D=3D 1, you are n=
ot at the ultimate destination, so according to what I'll call "Fernando'=
s reading" of RFC8200, you are not entitled to delete the header. That is=
 the point that IMHO needs to be stated explicitly in the draft. You are =
using "Darren's reading" of RFC8200.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> I really think you need to say so explicitly.=
 Something like:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> Note: this behavior does not contravene secti=
on 4 of [RFC8200]
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > because the current destination address of the inc=
oming packet
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > is the address of the node executing the PSP behav=
ior.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> This will not change the argument, but it wil=
l make the issue clear so that we (the IETF) can decide whether to accept=
 it or not. And that is orthogonal to whether RFC 8200 is wrong.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A03)
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Given that there is even heated discussions on the t=
ext/wording in RFC8200, I'm afraid that whatever text be inserted in draf=
t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming would trigger controversy and that=
 in the end be asked to be removed.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, I'm also in favor of making the issue =
clear.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Brian, I would personally prefer to stick as cl=
ose as possible to the text from RFC 8200, plus that we make clear that w=
e are not changing it but only referring to. So I would propose something=
 along the following:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As indicated in RFC 8200 section 4, extension headers =
[...] are not [to be]
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0processed, inserted, or deleted by any nod=
e along a packet's delivery
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0path, until the packet reaches the node [.=
=2E.] identified in the Destination Address field
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of the IPv6 header.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The PSP behavior defined in this section specifies tha=
t, the node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 heade=
r (as restricted by RFC 8200 section 4), when Segment Left is received as=
 1 and when specifically instructed by the source node, removes the SRH h=
eader.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As a reminder, the text from RFC 8200 is
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0"=C2=A0=C2=A0 Extension headers (except for the=
 Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 processed, inserted, or deleted by=
 any node along a packet's delivery
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 path, until the packet reaches the=
 node (or each of the set of nodes,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the case of multicast) identifi=
ed in the Destination Address field
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the IPv6 header."
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I believe that my proposed edits are clearly in=
dicated by "[]" and helps the reader to focus on the relevant text. Howev=
er, I'm also fine with copy pasting the text verbatim from RFC 8200.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A04) There is an interesting comment on the 6MAN =
WG https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/AJzOX97mUeHjEcDSIgpqUw8gNk0=
/
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Although not sent in the SPRING WG, and not mentioni=
ng to this document, I think that I should be taken into account.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 More specifically
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 " IMHO, any specification breaking AH (e.g., by modi=
fying the NextHeader in transport mode) should clearly note that it 'brea=
ks AH' or constraints its use; but, this is still acceptable for an IETF =
standard specification IMHO to 'break AH'."
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'd propose:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OLD:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As a reminder, [I-D.ietf-6man-segm=
ent-routing-header] defines in
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 section 5 the SR Deployment Model =
within the SR Domain [RFC8402].
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Within this framework, the Authent=
ication Header (AH) is not used to
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 secure the SRH as described in Sec=
tion 7.5 of
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-hea=
der].
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0NEW:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Removing the SRH requires modifying the Next Header =
field which is defined as Immutable by RFC 4302.=C2=A0 As indicated in [I=
-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header], the use of RH with AH by an SR sour=
ce node, and processing at a SR
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 segment endpoint node is not defin=
ed in this document.=C2=A0 Future documents may define use of SRH with AH=
 and its processing. Such future document needs to take into account that=
 the use of PSP requires the Next Header field to not be Immutable.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> PC2: Given the following text from RFC4301, and the quote above from th=
e SRH, do we really need this?
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 IPsec implementations MUST support ESP and MAY
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 support AH. (Support for AH has been downgraded to MAY bec=
ause
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 experience has shown that there are very few contexts in w=
hich ESP
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 cannot provide the requisite security services.=C2=A0 Note=
 that ESP can be
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 used to provide only integrity, without confidentiality, m=
aking it
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 comparable to AH in most contexts.)
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or whatever text indicating the issue.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Regards,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --Bruno
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0>
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> Regards
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Brian
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> > Many thanks,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Pablo.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> > -----Original Message-----
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Date: Monday, 2 March 2020 at 20:34
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=3D40cisco.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.o=
rg>
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Subject: Re: PSP and a logical application of RF=
C8200
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Darren,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regardless of wheth=
er you accept Fernando's comment about the intention of RFC 8200, there i=
s also the fact that the description of the PSP flavor cheats by consider=
ing the packet to have
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (Segments Left =3D=
=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP node's address).
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In fact that is *never* =
the state of the packet on the wire, which is either
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (Segments Left =3D=
=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP node's address)
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (Segments Left =3D=
=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D the final node's address)
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OK, maybe it's not =
cheating, maybe it's only a side effect of the pseudocode, but the fact i=
s that the test "S14.1.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {" in sec=
tion 4.16.1 is very confusing because it's applied to a packet that is ha=
lf way through processing of the routing header (Segments Left has been u=
pdated, but Destination Address has not been updated). This makes it very=
 unclear how the spec is claiming to interpret RFC 8200.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regards
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian =
Carpenter
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 03-Mar-20 03:52,=
 Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > What follows has been =
made clear on the list for a while,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > I am re-stating i=
t.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > The draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming PSP behavior
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0> strictly follows =
the letter of RFC 8200.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC8200 section 4 says:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header)=
 are not
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 *processed, inserted, or deleted* by any node along a packet's del=
ivery
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 path, until the packet reaches *the node* (or each of the set of n=
odes,
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 in the case of multicast) *identified in the Destination Address f=
ield*
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 * of the IPv6 header.*
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > The processing, i=
nsertion and deletion restrictions only apply
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =E2=80=9Cuntil th=
e packet reaches the node identified in the Destination
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Address field of the I=
Pv6 header=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0>=C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > At the penuptimat=
e segment of the segment list, the endpoint IS
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =E2=80=9Cthe node iden=
tified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > header=E2=80=9D and he=
nce the PSP operation programmed by the source SR
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0> node strictly fol=
lows the letter of RFC 8200.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>=20
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:42:01 +1100
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Hi Robert,

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Ron,
>
> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>
> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>

Ron is correct.



> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last
> label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the
> egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>

When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at all
performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header
(literally) preserved during that operation?

If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the LSR ingress
frame's SA and DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet frame's SA and DA?

If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link on
one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side?
Clearly an Ethernet frame can't travel over a PPP etc. link.

At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with new
SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.

The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified by
an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never
carried "through" the LSR.

PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.

Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be
discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR
domain, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6
packet. The EH chain ("stack") would be carried been discrete ingress and
egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel
outer header would be replaced at each SR router.

These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn't necessarily have to be
preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, then the
outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interface Link
Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and track
neighbours.

For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however it
would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a
Destination Option because it is processed at the destination addesss of
the outer tunnel header.


Regards,
Mark.



> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>
> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
> packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
> word :)
>
> Kind regards,
> R.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a
>> clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we
>> are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
>> different story.
>>
>>
>>                                                             Ron
>>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--00000000000035ed20059ffa2df9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Robert,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ron,</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr=
">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Purely looking at technical aspect that is=
 not true at all.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ron is correct.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>MPLS=
 PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last label. =
After MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=A0with remaining label stack to the egre=
ss LSR (example L3VPN PE).=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">When an MPLS packet is forwarded th=
rough an LSR, with any operation at all performed on the label stack (inclu=
ding none), is the link layer header (literally) preserved during that oper=
ation?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If the ingress an=
d egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the LSR ingress frame&#39;s SA a=
nd DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet frame&#39;s SA and DA?</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If you believe they do, how can=
 MPLS work going from an Ethernet link on one side of an LSR to a PPP (or F=
rame Relay, etc.) on the other side? Clearly an Ethernet frame can&#39;t tr=
avel over a PPP etc. link.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with n=
ew SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The label stack is carried from ing=
ress to egress, possibility modified by an operation such as pop. However t=
he link layer encapsulation is never carried &quot;through&quot; the LSR.</=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">PSP as described in SR NP=
 is not the same as PHP in MPLS.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there w=
ould be discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router i=
n the SR domain, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tun=
nel IPv6 packet. The EH chain (&quot;stack&quot;) would be carried been dis=
crete ingress and egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however t=
he ingress tunnel outer header would be replaced at each SR router.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">These distinct tunnels between =
SR routers wouldn&#39;t necessarily have to be preconfigured. If the SR rou=
ters are directly link layer attached, then the outer tunnel header IPv6 ad=
dressing could be the mandatory interface Link Local addresses - which IGPs=
 are already using to identify and track neighbours.</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For SR, there would have to be an EH that carr=
ies the SIDs list, however it would be a Destination Options EH, not a rout=
ing header. It would be a Destination Option because it is processed at the=
 destination addesss of the outer tunnel header.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that y=
ou can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><=
div>But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from =
packet&#39;s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except &quot;penult=
imate&quot; word :)</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>R.</di=
v><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=
=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 22:50:47 +0100
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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MPLS is not link layer. It is Layer 2.5 if you really want to squeeze it to
OSI.

Regardless of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop - but
that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PHP is the result of LDP
signalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.

And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statements if you would read my entire
note :)

Best,
R.





On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ron,
>>
>> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>>
>> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>>
>
> Ron is correct.
>
>
>
>> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last
>> label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the
>> egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>>
>
> When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at all
> performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header
> (literally) preserved during that operation?
>
> If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the LSR
> ingress frame's SA and DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet frame's SA
> and DA?
>
> If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link on
> one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side?
> Clearly an Ethernet frame can't travel over a PPP etc. link.
>
> At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with new
> SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.
>
> The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified by
> an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never
> carried "through" the LSR.
>
> PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.
>
> Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be
> discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR
> domain, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6
> packet. The EH chain ("stack") would be carried been discrete ingress and
> egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel
> outer header would be replaced at each SR router.
>
> These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn't necessarily have to be
> preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, then the
> outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interface Link
> Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and track
> neighbours.
>
> For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however
> it would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a
> Destination Option because it is processed at the destination addesss of
> the outer tunnel header.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>
>
>> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>>
>> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
>> packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
>> word :)
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> R.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a
>>> clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we
>>> are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
>>> different story.
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                               Ron
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>

--0000000000007292d0059ffa4c3c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>MPLS is not link layer. It is Layer 2.5 if =
you really want to squeeze=C2=A0it to OSI.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Regardl=
ess of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop - but that has n=
othing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PHP is the result of LDP signalling implic=
it null label from adjacent LSR.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And perhaps=
 it may avoid unnecessary statements if you would read my entire note :)=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark =
Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzzsmith@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Robert,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ron,</div><div><br></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encaps=
ulation.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Purely looking at technic=
al aspect that is not true at all.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ron is correct.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS =
PHP is just used to pop last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=A0wi=
th remaining label stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).=C2=A0</div><=
/div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at all=
 performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header (l=
iterally) preserved during that operation?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, d=
oes the LSR ingress frame&#39;s SA and DA match the post LSR processing Eth=
ernet frame&#39;s SA and DA?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link =
on one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side? Cl=
early an Ethernet frame can&#39;t travel over a PPP etc. link.</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the =
link layer frame is replaced, with new SA and DA, even if the link layer en=
capsulation is the same.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified by=
 an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never ca=
rried &quot;through&quot; the LSR.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.=C2=A0<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Modelling this operation=
 in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be discrete and distinct IPv6 in I=
Pv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR domain, and there would not be=
 an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6 packet. The EH chain (&quot;st=
ack&quot;) would be carried been discrete ingress and egress IPv6 in IPv6 t=
unnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel outer header would be=
 replaced at each SR router.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn&#39;t necessarily hav=
e to be preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, =
then the outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interfa=
ce Link Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and trac=
k neighbours.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For SR, th=
ere would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however it would be =
a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a Destination O=
ption because it is processed at the destination addesss of the outer tunne=
l header.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS =
PHP with SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>But I agree with=
 that. Both operations have very little in common from packet&#39;s standpo=
int or forwarding apect. Well maybe except &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, M=
ar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.=
net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:43:19 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2yo__BFUq0Rxnsa5H6aNOzJF6dpUCPZ4WiZRfh-jeZNBw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 08:50 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

>
> MPLS is not link layer.
>

I did not say that. I described how MPLS uses link-layers.


It is Layer 2.5 if you really want to squeeze it to OSI.
>

> Regardless of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop
>

IPv6 is your virtual MAC layer in SR. Then there is a MAC layer below that
IPv6 virtual MAC layer.

You're not thinking about tunnels being virtual links and performing
link-layer operations on them in the context of the upper protocol - MPLS
or SR.


- but that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PHP is the result of LDP
> signalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.
>
> And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statements if you would read my
> entire note :)
>

I did.

You don't seem to fully understand the idea of IPv6 being used as a virtual
link layer, and then how an upper IPv6 layer should treat and consider the
lower IPv6 layers.

Clue: the upper IPv6 layer should not be aware that there is an IPv6 "link
layer" below it. There is another link layer below the virtual lower IPv6
link layer, and that is another clue - there isn't always just one one link
layer instance - tunnelling introduces more link-layers, stacked on top of
each other, and that isn't limited to two - you can tunnel inside a tunnel
inside a tunnel. That gets confusing and complicated however once you learn
how to think within a layer, ignoring the others momentarily, it then can
be coped with.

You need to read and consider this Internet Draft. I wish it had existed 20
years ago.

IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-10

Regards,
Mark.



> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ron,
>>>
>>> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>>>
>>> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>>>
>>
>> Ron is correct.
>>
>>
>>
>>> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last
>>> label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the
>>> egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>>>
>>
>> When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at
>> all performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header
>> (literally) preserved during that operation?
>>
>> If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the LSR
>> ingress frame's SA and DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet frame's SA
>> and DA?
>>
>> If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link on
>> one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side?
>> Clearly an Ethernet frame can't travel over a PPP etc. link.
>>
>> At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with
>> new SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.
>>
>> The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified
>> by an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never
>> carried "through" the LSR.
>>
>> PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.
>>
>> Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be
>> discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR
>> domain, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6
>> packet. The EH chain ("stack") would be carried been discrete ingress and
>> egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel
>> outer header would be replaced at each SR router.
>>
>> These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn't necessarily have to be
>> preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, then the
>> outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interface Link
>> Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and track
>> neighbours.
>>
>> For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however
>> it would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a
>> Destination Option because it is processed at the destination addesss of
>> the outer tunnel header.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>>
>>> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>>>
>>> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
>>> packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
>>> word :)
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
>>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is
>>>> a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we
>>>> are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
>>>> different story.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                                                               Ron
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 08:50 Robert Raszuk, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><br></div>MPLS is not link layer. </div></blockquote></div></div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did not say that. I described how =
MPLS uses link-layers.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It is Layer 2.5 if you really want to squeeze=C2=
=A0it to OSI.=C2=A0</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b=
r></div><div>Regardless of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 =
hop</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">IPv6 is your virtual MAC layer in SR. Then there is a MAC layer =
below that IPv6 virtual MAC layer.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">You&#39;re not thinking about tunnels being virtual links and pe=
rforming link-layer operations on them in the context of the upper protocol=
 - MPLS or SR.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- but that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PH=
P is the result of LDP signalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statement=
s if you would read my entire note :)=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You don&#39;t seem to fully understand th=
e idea of IPv6 being used as a virtual link layer, and then how an upper IP=
v6 layer should treat and consider the lower IPv6 layers.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Clue: the upper IPv6 layer should not be =
aware that there is an IPv6 &quot;link layer&quot; below it. There is anoth=
er link layer below the virtual lower IPv6 link layer, and that is another =
clue - there isn&#39;t always just one one link layer instance - tunnelling=
 introduces more link-layers, stacked on top of each other, and that isn&#3=
9;t limited to two - you can tunnel inside a tunnel inside a tunnel. That g=
ets confusing and complicated however once you learn how to think within a =
layer, ignoring the others momentarily, it then can be coped with.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You need to read and consider th=
is Internet Draft. I wish it had existed 20 years ago.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top=
:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h1 =
style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em">IP Tunnels in the Internet Architect=
ure</h1></span></pre></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a=
 href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-10" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intar=
ea-tunnels-10</a><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Re=
gards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div=
>R.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue=
, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gma=
il.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Robert,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ron,</div><div>=
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-=
encapsulation.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Purely looking at t=
echnical aspect that is not true at all.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ron is correct.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>MPLS PHP does not remove label stack.=
 MPLS PHP is just used to pop last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=
=C2=A0with remaining label stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).=C2=
=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operat=
ion at all performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer=
 header (literally) preserved during that operation?</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If the ingress and egress LSR links are both E=
thernet, does the LSR ingress frame&#39;s SA and DA match the post LSR proc=
essing Ethernet frame&#39;s SA and DA?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethe=
rnet link on one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the othe=
r side? Clearly an Ethernet frame can&#39;t travel over a PPP etc. link.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">At every MPLS LSR along th=
e LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with new SA and DA, even if the lin=
k layer encapsulation is the same.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility m=
odified by an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation i=
s never carried &quot;through&quot; the LSR.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MP=
LS.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Modelling this=
 operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be discrete and distinct=
 IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR domain, and there wo=
uld not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6 packet. The EH chain=
 (&quot;stack&quot;) would be carried been discrete ingress and egress IPv6=
 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel outer heade=
r would be replaced at each SR router.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn&#39;t neces=
sarily have to be preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer =
attached, then the outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandato=
ry interface Link Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identif=
y and track neighbours.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however it=
 would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a Des=
tination Option because it is processed at the destination addesss of the o=
uter tunnel header.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can com=
pare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>But I =
agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from packet&#39=
;s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except &quot;penultimate&quot=
; word :)</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>R.</div><div><br=
></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:=
40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
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Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "'ietf@ietf.org'" <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:58:52 -0300
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On 3/3/20 12:49, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> Fernando
> 
>> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
>> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
>> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; 'ietf@ietf.org'; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> Martin,
>>
>> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim that
>> this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills for
>> evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is including
>> in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>>
>> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
>>
>> ---- cut here ----
>> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to
>> the benefit of PSP.
>> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its
>> level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It
>> may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
>> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing
>> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I
>> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of
>> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
>> ---- cut here ----
>>
>>
>> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it
>> cannot really understand?
> 
> 
> There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/

The motivation should be in the draft, not in the mail archive. And you 
declared consensus on a document that does not include such motivation.


> 
> My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate, e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
> One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your hardware".
> 
> And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not want to speak for Joel)
> "Do you have any comments on what appears to be the significant increase
> in complexity on the device performing PSP?  The question I am trying to
> get at is about the tradeoff, which needs one to evaluate both sides."
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNggo/

You have to justify the included behavior, not the other way around:

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:59:31 +0100
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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You are right Mark ... I fully admit I have no clue what so ever about
"IPv6 being a virtual MAC layer in SR" nor " IPv6 being used as a virtual
link layer".

I was only talking about MPLS on which topic I think I still have a little
bit of remaining knowledge.

Thx a lot,
Robert


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:43 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 08:50 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> MPLS is not link layer.
>>
>
> I did not say that. I described how MPLS uses link-layers.
>
>
> It is Layer 2.5 if you really want to squeeze it to OSI.
>>
>
>> Regardless of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop
>>
>
> IPv6 is your virtual MAC layer in SR. Then there is a MAC layer below that
> IPv6 virtual MAC layer.
>
> You're not thinking about tunnels being virtual links and performing
> link-layer operations on them in the context of the upper protocol - MPLS
> or SR.
>
>
> - but that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PHP is the result of LDP
>> signalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.
>>
>> And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statements if you would read my
>> entire note :)
>>
>
> I did.
>
> You don't seem to fully understand the idea of IPv6 being used as a
> virtual link layer, and then how an upper IPv6 layer should treat and
> consider the lower IPv6 layers.
>
> Clue: the upper IPv6 layer should not be aware that there is an IPv6 "link
> layer" below it. There is another link layer below the virtual lower IPv6
> link layer, and that is another clue - there isn't always just one one link
> layer instance - tunnelling introduces more link-layers, stacked on top of
> each other, and that isn't limited to two - you can tunnel inside a tunnel
> inside a tunnel. That gets confusing and complicated however once you learn
> how to think within a layer, ignoring the others momentarily, it then can
> be coped with.
>
> You need to read and consider this Internet Draft. I wish it had existed
> 20 years ago.
>
> IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-10
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>
>
>> Best,
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>>
>>> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ron,
>>>>
>>>> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>>>>
>>>> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ron is correct.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last
>>>> label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the
>>>> egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>>>>
>>>
>>> When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at
>>> all performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header
>>> (literally) preserved during that operation?
>>>
>>> If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the LSR
>>> ingress frame's SA and DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet frame's SA
>>> and DA?
>>>
>>> If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link on
>>> one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side?
>>> Clearly an Ethernet frame can't travel over a PPP etc. link.
>>>
>>> At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with
>>> new SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.
>>>
>>> The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified
>>> by an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never
>>> carried "through" the LSR.
>>>
>>> PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.
>>>
>>> Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be
>>> discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR
>>> domain, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6
>>> packet. The EH chain ("stack") would be carried been discrete ingress and
>>> egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel
>>> outer header would be replaced at each SR router.
>>>
>>> These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn't necessarily have to
>>> be preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, then
>>> the outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interface
>>> Link Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and track
>>> neighbours.
>>>
>>> For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however
>>> it would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a
>>> Destination Option because it is processed at the destination addesss of
>>> the outer tunnel header.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>>>>
>>>> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
>>>> packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
>>>> word :)
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> R.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
>>>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is
>>>>> a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we
>>>>> are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
>>>>> different story.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 Ron
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> spring mailing list
>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>
>>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>You are right=C2=A0Mark ... I fully admit I=
 have no clue what so ever about &quot;IPv6 being a virtual MAC layer in SR=
&quot; nor &quot;

IPv6 being used as a virtual link layer&quot;.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I w=
as only talking about MPLS on which topic I think I still have a little bit=
 of remaining knowledge.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx a lot,</div><di=
v>Robert</div><div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:43 PM Mar=
k Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzzsmith@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 08:50 Robert Raszuk, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>MPLS is not link layer. </div></blockquote>=
</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did not say tha=
t. I described how MPLS uses link-layers.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It is Laye=
r 2.5 if you really want to squeeze=C2=A0it to OSI.=C2=A0</div></blockquote=
></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regar=
dless of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop</div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">IPv6 is=
 your virtual MAC layer in SR. Then there is a MAC layer below that IPv6 vi=
rtual MAC layer.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You&#39=
;re not thinking about tunnels being virtual links and performing link-laye=
r operations on them in the context of the upper protocol - MPLS or SR.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- but that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS P=
HP is the result of LDP signalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statem=
ents if you would read my entire note :)=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You don&#39;t seem to fully understan=
d the idea of IPv6 being used as a virtual link layer, and then how an uppe=
r IPv6 layer should treat and consider the lower IPv6 layers.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Clue: the upper IPv6 layer should not=
 be aware that there is an IPv6 &quot;link layer&quot; below it. There is a=
nother link layer below the virtual lower IPv6 link layer, and that is anot=
her clue - there isn&#39;t always just one one link layer instance - tunnel=
ling introduces more link-layers, stacked on top of each other, and that is=
n&#39;t limited to two - you can tunnel inside a tunnel inside a tunnel. Th=
at gets confusing and complicated however once you learn how to think withi=
n a layer, ignoring the others momentarily, it then can be coped with.</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You need to read and conside=
r this Internet Draft. I wish it had existed 20 years ago.</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin=
-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-weight:bold">=
<h1 style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em">IP Tunnels in the Internet Archi=
tecture</h1></span></pre></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-10" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-in=
tarea-tunnels-10</a><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></di=
v><div>Best,</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">markzz=
zsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Robert,<br><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Ro=
bert Raszuk, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Hi Ron,</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP =
is a clear case of de-encapsulation.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.=C2=A0</div><=
/div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Ron is correct.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>MPLS PHP does n=
ot remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last label. After MPLS =
PHP packets continue=C2=A0with remaining label stack to the egress LSR (exa=
mple L3VPN PE).=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LS=
R, with any operation at all performed on the label stack (including none),=
 is the link layer header (literally) preserved during that operation?</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If the ingress and egress LS=
R links are both Ethernet, does the LSR ingress frame&#39;s SA and DA match=
 the post LSR processing Ethernet frame&#39;s SA and DA?</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If you believe they do, how can MPLS work =
going from an Ethernet link on one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay,=
 etc.) on the other side? Clearly an Ethernet frame can&#39;t travel over a=
 PPP etc. link.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">At every=
 MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with new SA and D=
A, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The label stack is carried from ingress to egr=
ess, possibility modified by an operation such as pop. However the link lay=
er encapsulation is never carried &quot;through&quot; the LSR.</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">PSP as described in SR NP is not the=
 same as PHP in MPLS.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be dis=
crete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR do=
main, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6 pa=
cket. The EH chain (&quot;stack&quot;) would be carried been discrete ingre=
ss and egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress =
tunnel outer header would be replaced at each SR router.</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">These distinct tunnels between SR routers =
wouldn&#39;t necessarily have to be preconfigured. If the SR routers are di=
rectly link layer attached, then the outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing co=
uld be the mandatory interface Link Local addresses - which IGPs are alread=
y using to identify and track neighbours.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SID=
s list, however it would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header.=
 It would be a Destination Option because it is processed at the destinatio=
n addesss of the outer tunnel header.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">M=
ark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t thi=
nk that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in com=
mon from packet&#39;s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except &qu=
ot;penultimate&quot; word :)</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><d=
iv>R.</div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=
=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer norefe=
rrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nore=
ferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP lookup
and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would impact
forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this still an issue
at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected implementers should speak
up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP.

Cheers,
Andy (who was there at the time)

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Ron,
>
> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>
> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>
> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last
> label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the
> egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>
> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>
> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
> packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
> word :)
>
> Kind regards,
> R.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a
>> clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we
>> are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
>> different story.
>>
>>
>>                                                             Ron
>>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--000000000000e17f4a059ffba7ee
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particul=
ar issue with some forwarding engines at the time - they couldn&#39;t do a =
final pop followed by an IP lookup and forward operation in a single forwar=
ding cycle (it would impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years la=
ter, is this still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected=
 implementers should speak up, otherwise there&#39;s really=C2=A0no need fo=
r PSP.<div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Andy (who was there at the time=
)</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
obert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ron,</div><div>=
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-=
encapsulation.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Purely looking at t=
echnical aspect that is not true at all.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>MPL=
S PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last label.=
 After MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=A0with remaining label stack to the egr=
ess LSR (example L3VPN PE).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don=
&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>But I agree with that. Both operations have very lit=
tle in common from packet&#39;s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe =
except &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regard=
s,</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt=
;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:10:00 +1100
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 09:59 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

>
> You are right Mark ... I fully admit I have no clue what so ever about
> "IPv6 being a virtual MAC layer in SR" nor " IPv6 being used as a virtual
> link layer".
>

I didn't say you had no clue.

Saying things like "MPLS is not link layer." suggests you think I have no
clue, and that makes this conversation a waste of time.



> I was only talking about MPLS on which topic I think I still have a little
> bit of remaining knowledge.
>
> Thx a lot,
> Robert
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:43 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 08:50 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> MPLS is not link layer.
>>>
>>
>> I did not say that. I described how MPLS uses link-layers.
>>
>>
>> It is Layer 2.5 if you really want to squeeze it to OSI.
>>>
>>
>>> Regardless of IPv4, IPv6 or MPLS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop
>>>
>>
>> IPv6 is your virtual MAC layer in SR. Then there is a MAC layer below
>> that IPv6 virtual MAC layer.
>>
>> You're not thinking about tunnels being virtual links and performing
>> link-layer operations on them in the context of the upper protocol - MPLS
>> or SR.
>>
>>
>> - but that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PHP is the result of LDP
>>> signalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.
>>>
>>> And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statements if you would read my
>>> entire note :)
>>>
>>
>> I did.
>>
>> You don't seem to fully understand the idea of IPv6 being used as a
>> virtual link layer, and then how an upper IPv6 layer should treat and
>> consider the lower IPv6 layers.
>>
>> Clue: the upper IPv6 layer should not be aware that there is an IPv6
>> "link layer" below it. There is another link layer below the virtual lower
>> IPv6 link layer, and that is another clue - there isn't always just one one
>> link layer instance - tunnelling introduces more link-layers, stacked on
>> top of each other, and that isn't limited to two - you can tunnel inside a
>> tunnel inside a tunnel. That gets confusing and complicated however once
>> you learn how to think within a layer, ignoring the others momentarily, it
>> then can be coped with.
>>
>> You need to read and consider this Internet Draft. I wish it had existed
>> 20 years ago.
>>
>> IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture
>>
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-10
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Best,
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron is correct.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>>>>> last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to
>>>>> the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When an MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at
>>>> all performed on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header
>>>> (literally) preserved during that operation?
>>>>
>>>> If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the LSR
>>>> ingress frame's SA and DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet frame's SA
>>>> and DA?
>>>>
>>>> If you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link
>>>> on one side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side?
>>>> Clearly an Ethernet frame can't travel over a PPP etc. link.
>>>>
>>>> At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link layer frame is replaced, with
>>>> new SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsulation is the same.
>>>>
>>>> The label stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified
>>>> by an operation such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never
>>>> carried "through" the LSR.
>>>>
>>>> PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.
>>>>
>>>> Modelling this operation in RFC 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be
>>>> discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels between each SR router in the SR
>>>> domain, and there would not be an Routing Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6
>>>> packet. The EH chain ("stack") would be carried been discrete ingress and
>>>> egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels, possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel
>>>> outer header would be replaced at each SR router.
>>>>
>>>> These distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn't necessarily have to
>>>> be preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, then
>>>> the outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interface
>>>> Link Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and track
>>>> neighbours.
>>>>
>>>> For SR, there would have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list,
>>>> however it would be a Destination Options EH, not a routing header. It
>>>> would be a Destination Option because it is processed at the destination
>>>> addesss of the outer tunnel header.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mark.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>>>>>
>>>>> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from
>>>>> packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate"
>>>>> word :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> R.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=
>>>>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP
>>>>>> is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP,
>>>>>> we are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a
>>>>>> different story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                                                                 Ron
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> spring mailing list
>>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>>
>>>>

--00000000000079ee6c059ffc3ee3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 09:59 Robert Raszuk, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">robert@r=
aszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>You are right=C2=A0Mark ... I fully admit I have no=
 clue what so ever about &quot;IPv6 being a virtual MAC layer in SR&quot; n=
or &quot;

IPv6 being used as a virtual link layer&quot;.=C2=A0</div></blockquote></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I didn&#39;t say you =
had no clue.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Saying thin=
gs like &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">MPLS is not link layer=
.&quot; suggests you think I have no clue, and that makes this conversation=
 a waste of time.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>I was only talking about=
 MPLS on which topic I think I still have a little bit of remaining knowled=
ge.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx a lot,</div><div>Robert</div><div><d=
iv><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:43 PM Mark Smith &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, 08:5=
0 Robert Raszuk, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=3D"noreferrer=
 noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br=
></div>MPLS is not link layer. </div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did not say that. I described how MPLS u=
ses link-layers.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It is Layer 2.5 if you really want =
to squeeze=C2=A0it to OSI.=C2=A0</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regardless of IPv4, IPv6 or MP=
LS MACs are replaced at each L3 hop</div></div></blockquote></div></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">IPv6 is your virtual MAC layer i=
n SR. Then there is a MAC layer below that IPv6 virtual MAC layer.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You&#39;re not thinking about tu=
nnels being virtual links and performing link-layer operations on them in t=
he context of the upper protocol - MPLS or SR.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
- but that has nothing to do with MPLS PHP. MPLS PHP is the result of LDP s=
ignalling implicit null label from adjacent LSR.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div>And perhaps it may avoid unnecessary statements if you would read my e=
ntire note :)=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">You don&#39;t seem to fully understand the idea of IPv6 being use=
d as a virtual link layer, and then how an upper IPv6 layer should treat an=
d consider the lower IPv6 layers.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Clue: the upper IPv6 layer should not be aware that there is an I=
Pv6 &quot;link layer&quot; below it. There is another link layer below the =
virtual lower IPv6 link layer, and that is another clue - there isn&#39;t a=
lways just one one link layer instance - tunnelling introduces more link-la=
yers, stacked on top of each other, and that isn&#39;t limited to two - you=
 can tunnel inside a tunnel inside a tunnel. That gets confusing and compli=
cated however once you learn how to think within a layer, ignoring the othe=
rs momentarily, it then can be coped with.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">You need to read and consider this Internet Draft. I wis=
h it had existed 20 years ago.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=
<span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h1 style=3D"display:inline;=
font-size:1em">IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture</h1></span></pre></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-10" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-=
tunnels-10</a><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regar=
ds,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><di=
v>Best,</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer=
 noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Robert,<br><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 =
Mar 2020, 07:11 Robert Raszuk, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ron,</div><div><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation=
.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Purely looking at technical aspe=
ct that is not true at all.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ron is correct.</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><br></div><div>MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is =
just used to pop last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=A0with rema=
ining label stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).=C2=A0</div></div></=
blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">When a=
n MPLS packet is forwarded through an LSR, with any operation at all perfor=
med on the label stack (including none), is the link layer header (literall=
y) preserved during that operation?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">If the ingress and egress LSR links are both Ethernet, does the=
 LSR ingress frame&#39;s SA and DA match the post LSR processing Ethernet f=
rame&#39;s SA and DA?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If=
 you believe they do, how can MPLS work going from an Ethernet link on one =
side of an LSR to a PPP (or Frame Relay, etc.) on the other side? Clearly a=
n Ethernet frame can&#39;t travel over a PPP etc. link.</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">At every MPLS LSR along the LSP the link la=
yer frame is replaced, with new SA and DA, even if the link layer encapsula=
tion is the same.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The la=
bel stack is carried from ingress to egress, possibility modified by an ope=
ration such as pop. However the link layer encapsulation is never carried &=
quot;through&quot; the LSR.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">PSP as described in SR NP is not the same as PHP in MPLS.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Modelling this operation in RFC=
 8200 compliant IPv6, there would be discrete and distinct IPv6 in IPv6 tun=
nels between each SR router in the SR domain, and there would not be an Rou=
ting Headers in the outer tunnel IPv6 packet. The EH chain (&quot;stack&quo=
t;) would be carried been discrete ingress and egress IPv6 in IPv6 tunnels,=
 possibly modified, however the ingress tunnel outer header would be replac=
ed at each SR router.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Th=
ese distinct tunnels between SR routers wouldn&#39;t necessarily have to be=
 preconfigured. If the SR routers are directly link layer attached, then th=
e outer tunnel header IPv6 addressing could be the mandatory interface Link=
 Local addresses - which IGPs are already using to identify and track neigh=
bours.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For SR, there wou=
ld have to be an EH that carries the SIDs list, however it would be a Desti=
nation Options EH, not a routing header. It would be a Destination Option b=
ecause it is processed at the destination addesss of the outer tunnel heade=
r.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b=
r></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP wit=
h SRv6 PSP=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>But I agree with that. =
Both operations have very little in common from packet&#39;s standpoint or =
forwarding apect. Well maybe except &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2=
020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dma=
rc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is =
a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we =
are removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a differe=
nt story.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--00000000000079ee6c059ffc3ee3--


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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:28:56 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iJBpHMa=1T74hNfTN=UbPVGwFGV++z_3x=F=cD+dOVSYQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:07 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Sander,
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sander Steffann [mailto:sander@steffann.nl]
> > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:03 PM
> > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
> > Cc: SPRING WG List; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; 6man WG
> > Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >
> > Hi Bruno,
> >
> > >> Wait, what?!  There is no "we needed to advance this document" in th=
e IETF or any other consensus based forum...
> > >
> > > By advance this document, I meant start the WG LC. Which is about col=
lecting comments on the document.
> >
> > I think you are confused. This document has been in WG LC since Decembe=
r=E2=80=A6 I think many of us read "advance this document" as "declare cons=
ensus on WG LC".
>
> Re-reading my sentence, I agree that it may be misinterpreted. Let me try=
 to rephrase:
> In December, I have started the WGLC because this has been asked by the a=
uthors of this WG document. And because this is usually a good way to trigg=
er a review of the whole document by many persons, and hence improve the do=
cument.
> (And I do think that the document has improved as a result of starting th=
e WGLC)
>
>
> > > The situation is that there was and is a single chair. I'm personally=
 ok to not proceed with any adoption call or last call while there is no ot=
her co-chair. Note that my AD never asked for this.
> >
> > I'm glad you confirm that no consensus has been declared. That seems th=
e appropriate state at the moment.
> >
> > >> Based on the discussions on the mailing list (including questions on=
 why PSP is so important that we can't take it out for now which have never=
 been clearly answered by the authors) I can't see you can possibly declare=
 consensus.
> > >>
> > >> If there is going to be an appeal I will certainly put my signature =
on it.
> > >
> > > This is you right to appeal to the IESG.
> >
> > Now that we know that consensus hasn't been declared and the document i=
s still in LC I think appealing would be premature :)
> >
> > > Note that appealing to the IESG is exactly what I'm proposing to do w=
ith regards to the reading of RFC 8200.
> >
> > Getting that feedback would indeed be helpful.
>
> Good.
> How do you propose that we get an evaluation and formal answer from the I=
ESG on this point?
> My proposal is to ask while asking the IESG review on draft-ietf-spring-s=
rv6-network-programming.

<no-hats>
Ok, I'm confused -- the process goes that (for WG documents) the WG
chairs evaluate and declare consensus, and then send the document to
the responsible AD. The responsible AD reviews the document and the
process, and if they deem it appropriate, sends to to the IESG for
evaluation.
"ask while asking the IESG review on
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming" implies that the chairs
would have declared consensus and believe it is ready to publish, and
that the responsible AD agrees it is ready to progress - is this what
you are proposing / saying?

Or were you meaning that you would just ask the IESG to review? Or
that you would state that you cannot declare consensus, and are
gridlocked, and ask the IESG to help? Or something else?

I'm genuinely confused what you mean by the above, and am just trying
to figure out what you are proposing.

W

</no-hats>


>
> --Bruno
>
> > Cheers!
> > Sander
> >
>
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--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-li-spring-srv6-path-segment-05.txt
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 03:03:03 +0000
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From nobody Tue Mar  3 20:30:56 2020
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Stewart, et.al.,

First, there has been some ambivalence regarding what the issue with
an AD taking this type of decission.

- there is no doubt that an AD may take this decision, module enough
   involvement in the wg and giódd understanding of the issues

- it might be discussed if the right decision were taken, from my
   point of view (personal opinion) I can live with this decision

Comment on Stewart's comment inline.


On 03/03/2020 20:32, Stewart Bryant wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:43, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> ﻿I have no information about the situation but I do not understand why an AD would be declaring consensus in any case -
>>> that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.  see RFC 2418 section 3.3
>>
>> The only active/available WG chair was a co-author of this draft.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>>
> 
> 
> As a WGC that has been in a position where the chairs had a CoI, I(we) asked the WG Secretary to manage the document, and that is what other WGs do. Look at the DetNet data plane drafts as an example. That means that the decision is taken at the lowest level and leaves the AD continue in the oversight role.

Yes - a much better practice. You could also appoint working group chair 
from another group as "shepherd" and explicitly delegate the task to
call consensus after the wglc.

I think that PALS did this for me once when both chairs were draft
authors.

/Loa

> 
> Anyway from the discussion on the list this probably need to go for review by the other two RTG ADs to check that they are happy with the decision or to recommend some other action.
> 
> - Stewart
> 
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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CC: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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To: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <8259d37e-b460-5f76-1ce6-b0d026bccf6b@gont.com.ar> <20143_1583250558_5E5E7C7E_20143_390_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD80E6@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5d693a5e-baa0-6ffb-4e39-2695795b7413@joelhalpern.com> <7501_1583255845_5E5E9125_7501_499_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD84FF@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <fc5bf8d9-073f-2eff-6041-e1610bf6e116@joelhalpern.com> <DM6PR05MB63484795948C4901C9B7A548AEE40@DM6PR05MB6348.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAOj+MMGE+j7_QnFn-8ZQcU3BKLGEPaXj6hfppxG7-7iFkT3R1g@mail.gmail.com> <CAA=duU3fXaQY--XufYo+CuCnJsTd+bXH2uBbjUUHVJg6tLpzng@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 02:09:27 -0500
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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In this case, it is even less relevant.  The PSP for SRv6 does not 
remove the double-processing.  It merely removes the need to ignore the 
SRH at the ultimate node.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
> MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding 
> engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP 
> lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would 
> impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this still 
> an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected implementers 
> should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy (who was there at the time)
> 
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net 
> <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Ron,
> 
>      >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
> 
>     Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
> 
>     MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>     last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
>     stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
> 
>      >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
> 
>     But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
>     from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
>     "penultimate" word :)
> 
>     Kind regards,
>     R.
> 
> 
>     On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
>     <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> 
>         Folks,
> 
>         I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS
>         PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the
>         time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle of
>         a packet. That is quite a different story.
> 
>                                                                         
>                                                                         
>                Ron
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     spring mailing list
>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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<div><span></span>Please use the text in the latest version as the start pi=
ont to generate the proper and acceptable text. Version 07 is too old.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Again to speed the standard process, I suggest the fla=
vor part be removed from the srv6-network-programming doc. Since flavor is =
optional to srv6, we can disscuss it in a separate doc as an optional enhan=
cement feature to SRv6.</div>=0A=
<div><br></div><div>Best Regards,</div><div>Zhenqiang Li</div><hr style=3D"=
width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=3D"left">=0A=
<div><span><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10p=
t"><div>li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com</div></div></span></div>=0A=
<blockquote style=3D"margin-Top: 0px; margin-Bottom: 0px; margin-Left: 0.5e=
m"><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0p=
t;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; PADDING-LEFT=
: 8px; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKGROUND: #efefe=
f; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D=
"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com">Gyan Mishra</a></div><div><b>Date:</b>&nbsp;=
2020-03-03&nbsp;12:51</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingro=
ng@huawei.com">Xiejingrong (Jingrong)</a></div><div><b>CC:</b>&nbsp;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:6man@iet=
f.org">6man@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com">Bob Hinde=
n</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp">=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=
=93=89</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spri=
ng] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-=
srv6-network-programming</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"FoxDiv20200303=
142853948688"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi J=
ingrong&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I am follo=
wing what you displayed and it makes sense. In section 4.21.1 for the PSP f=
lavor what was confusing was it said that the End.X with PSP flavor can pop=
 the SRH.&nbsp; The way it=E2=80=99s written, &nbsp;to me it reads that any=
 P router can pop the SRH when the last SID is written to the DA. So if the=
 SRH SID list happens to not steer to the egress PE and ended a few hops ea=
rly, &nbsp;and If PSP is true then the SRH could be popped early on any P n=
ode.&nbsp; Maybe I am reading to far into the verbiage.&nbsp; I think since=
 End.X could be any P transit router what I am saying could happen. &nbsp;<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre class=3D"newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><=
span class=3D"h4" style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><=
h4 style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"sec=
tion-4.21.1" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6=
-network-programming-07#section-4.21.1" style=3D"color:black;text-decoratio=
n:none">4.21.1</a>.  PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH</h4></span>=0A=
   After the instruction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,=0A=
   the following instructions must be added:=0A=
 1.   IF updated SL =3D 0 &amp; PSP is TRUE=0A=
 2.      pop the top SRH                                         ;; Ref1=0A=
</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px;break-before:page">   Ref1: The received SRH had SL=3D1.  When th=
e last SID is written in the=0A=
   DA, the End, End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the=0A=
   first (top-most) SRH.  Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but=0A=
   are not processed as part of the function.</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">At each hop each node copies the SID to DA and =
updates the SL =3D SL -1</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>I am depicting an incoming SL value to each node and then each node update=
s the SL pointer along the path hop by hop.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">PSP mode</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:14px">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">P2--{SL=3D1} -P3=
--pop</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;font-size:14px">--</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">PE4]----CE2</span></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">PSP disabled (USP)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -&nbsp;</span><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:=
14px">P2--{SL=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">--</span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">PE4 pop]--=
--CE2</span><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">USD &nbsp;(USD) - Decapsulation &amp; forward n=
ative packet payload to customer CE</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;font-size:14px">CE1----[PE1----{SL=3D2} -&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">P2--{SL=
=3D1} -P3---{SL=3D0}</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">--</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">PE4 dencap]----CE2</spa=
n></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Thank=
s&nbsp;<br></p></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</di=
v><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 7:59 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.5em; border-=
left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: =
solid; padding-left: 1ex;">=0A=
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Gyan,<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">In my understanding, PSP is used right in a P node=
, works for both End and End.X ( I haven=E2=80=99t known End.T very well ye=
t).<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Suppose:<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">CE1----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----CE2<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">PE1 encapsulation the customer packet with an oute=
r IPv6 header and an SRH, the packet arriving P2 will be:<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP2&lt;End&gt;) (SL=3D2, PE4&lt;End=
.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) &nbsp;(customer-packet)<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Then, the packet arriving P3 will be:<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DP3&lt;End.X&gt;) (SL=3D1, PE4&lt;E=
nd.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) &nbsp;(customer-packet)<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">In Non-PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 li=
ke this:<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;) (SL=3D0, PE4&l=
t;End.DT4&gt;, P3&lt;End.X&gt;, P2&lt;End&gt;) &nbsp;(customer-packet)<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">In PSP mode, the packet will be sent to PE4 like t=
his:<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">(SA=3DPE1, DA=3DPE4&lt;End.DT4&gt;) (customer-pack=
et)<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">For you assumption, =E2=80=9C</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Since every PE in an SR domain both SRv6 or =
SR-MPLS identical to MPLS would=0A=
 be both a SR source node and final destination node of an LSP.</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s always true, =
you can find an example I was recently thinking about in another mail: VM--=
--TOR----Spine----Superspine----[PE1----P2----P3----PE4]----subscribers.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Even if it is true for some network, the capabilit=
y to handle the SRH on a receiving packet is different than the encapsulati=
on of an outer IPv6=0A=
 header with an SRH header.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sending (with encapsulation) and receiving (with r=
ecognizing/processing/demultiplexing), &nbsp;they are not necessarily the s=
ame ---- like the things=0A=
 to fragment and assembly.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">A PE may be well capable of encapsulation everythi=
ng (like BFD template), but may fail to process a little thing that it is u=
nrecognized.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It m=
ay just drop any packet with Next Header value other than 4/41/47/etc.=0A=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It m=
ay send such packet with any routing header to its slow-path for the compli=
ance but lose the necessary performance.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks</span></p></div></div><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" l=
ink=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-t=
op: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Jingrong<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Gyan Mishra [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</=
a>]=0A=
<br>=0A=
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 2, 2020 4:20 AM<br>=0A=
<b>To:</b> Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.=
com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>=0A=
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org=
</a>; Bob Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; </span>=0A=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif"> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp" target=3D"_blank=
">jinmei@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt;<br>=0A=
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the L=
C and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Jingrong,<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">Can you help provide some clarification on the use cases fo=
r PSP flavor with end.X and end.T functions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">Under Ref1 where it mentions end.X and end.T functions to u=
se PSP knob &nbsp;as well if desired.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">How would that work with any P node using the PSP function?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-4.2=
1" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;HelveticaNeue&quot;,s=
erif">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-progra=
mming-07#section-4.21</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<h4><a name=3D"m_-2962480811839953522_m_-8282060039690718609_m_-48476431018=
413"></a><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-=
network-programming-07#section-4.21.1" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none">4.21.1</span></a><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">.&nbsp;=0A=
 PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH<u></u><u></u></span></h4>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">&nbsp;&nbsp; After the in=
struction 'update the IPv6 DA with SRH[SL]' is executed,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">&nbsp;&nbsp; the followin=
g instructions must be added:<u></u><u></u></span></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"> 1.&nbsp;&nbsp; IF update=
d SL =3D 0 &amp; PSP is TRUE<u></u><u></u></span></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"> 2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; pop the top SRH&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ;; Ref1<u></u><u></u></span></pre>=
=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Ref1: The received SRH ha=
d SL=3D1.&nbsp; When the last SID is written in the<u></u><u></u></span></p=
re>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">&nbsp;&nbsp; DA, the End,=
 End.X and End.T functions with the PSP flavour pop the<u></u><u></u></span=
></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">&nbsp;&nbsp; first (top-m=
ost) SRH.&nbsp; Subsequent stacked SRH's may be present but<u></u><u></u></=
span></pre>=0A=
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">&nbsp;&nbsp; are not proc=
essed as part of the function.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Also trying to understand the reaso=
n given for PSP function for legacy final destination egress PE not being S=
Rv6 capable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Since every PE in an SR domain both=
 SRv6 or SR-MPLS identical to MPLS would be both a SR source node and final=
 destination node of an LSP.&nbsp; I am using the MPLS term LSP with SR as =
the concept of=0A=
 FEC destination which now is a prefix SID still exists that all traffic to=
 egress final destination &nbsp;PE is forwarded to.&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Since LSPs built to FEC destination=
 are uni directional as they are with MPLS &nbsp;and that would be the case=
 as well for SR paths - the idea that the final destination PE would lack h=
ardware capability=0A=
 for SRH processing does not make sense as the source and final destination=
 node are one and the same.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Am I missing something?<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Kind Regards&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#313131">Gyan<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color:=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; marg=
in: 0px 0cm 0px 0.5em;">=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">Got it.<br>=0A=
Thanks for your clarification of your point. <br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
Jingrong<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
-----Original Message-----<br>=0A=
From: </span>=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89<span lang=3D"EN-US"> [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp" target=3D"_blank">jinmei@wide.ad.j=
p</a>]=0A=
<br>=0A=
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM<br>=0A=
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>=0A=
Cc: Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" target=3D"_blank">mel=
lon@fugue.com</a>&gt;; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pca=
maril@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pcamaril@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Brian E Carp=
enter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;=0A=
 Bob Hinden &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">b=
ob.hinden@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joel=
halpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;;=0A=
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=0A=
6man@ietf.org</a><br>=0A=
Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and m=
ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 &#43;0000,<br>=0A=
&quot;Xiejingrong (Jingrong)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei=
..com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
&gt; The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the <br>=
=0A=
&gt; understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case <=
br>=0A=
&gt; the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need =
to change accordingly.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.&nbsp; It's a pity that we have to dis=
cuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also respo=
nsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone who in=
volved the discussion should know the=0A=
 intent of this text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) &quot;Exte=
nsion headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source =
node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arr=
ived at its ultimate destination&quot;.&nbsp; It=0A=
 might look &quot;an attempt of blocking an innovation by a small group of =
vocal fundamentalists&quot;, but if you see the responses without a bias, y=
ou'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the underlying S=
Rv6 matter interpret the text that way.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't immediately =
mean it (PSP) &quot;needs to change&quot;.&nbsp; It can update RFC8200 with=
 explaining why it's necessary and justified.&nbsp; That's what I requested=
 as you summarized:<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
&gt; Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why =
it's justified.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposal w=
ill have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH inser=
tion.&nbsp; On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will certain=
ly trigger many appeals and objections=0A=
 at the IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it).&nbsp; In the end, it =
can easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an update=
 to RFC8200.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
--<br>=0A=
JINMEI, Tatuya<br>=0A=
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>=0A=
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>=0A=
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>=0A=
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" target=3D"_blank">=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>=0A=
--------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</blockquote>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,se=
rif;color:black">Gyan&nbsp; Mishra</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,se=
rif;color:black">Network Engineering &amp; Technology&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,se=
rif;color:black">Verizon&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,se=
rif;color:black">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,se=
rif;color:black">Phone: 301 502-1347</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,se=
rif;color:black">Email:=0A=
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
<div>=0A=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</div>=0A=
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-botto=
m: 0px;"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G=
</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan&nbsp; Mishra</font></font></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><fon=
t size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering =
&amp; Technology&nbsp;</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top=
: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"geor=
gia, serif">Verizon&nbsp;</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"g=
eorgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#0000=
00" face=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><font size=3D"1" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra=
@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></p>=
</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
=0A=
</div></div></blockquote>=0A=
</body></html>=

------=_001_NextPart230877141442_=------


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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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If we really want to say that it takes only one person asking for 
something to put it in a planned RFC, then I guess we have to publish 
all of the competing versions of route headers for v6, since we clealry 
have more than 1 party asking for each variant?
Put differently, no, putting something in because one person asked for 
it (even with the caeat that it appears not to break) is not how the 
IETF generally works.  I do not know where Bruno got that premise, but 
it does not match the history or written policies of the IETF.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/4/2020 2:43 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> I would like to echo the arguments that Bruno has made (and quote part 
> of it) in his summary and then previously on this thread.
> 
> /QOUTE/
> 
> /The point was related to the usefulness of the optional feature, which 
> has been challenged./
> 
> /I was trying to say the required argumentation to declare usefulness or 
> usefulness is asymmetric, from a logical discussion stand point./
> 
> //
> 
> /a) It only requires one person to find it useful, in order to make the 
> feature useful (for that person)./
> 
> /b) In order to state that this is un-useful,  requires to prove that 
> this is never useful./
> 
> /UNQOUTE/
> 
> It’s pure logic!
> 
> Please check inline below.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> Sent: 03 March 2020 21:54
> To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; Martin Vigoureux 
> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work around, so 
> I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of itself, 
> enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.
> 
> */[KT] To start with, there are other/more use-cases for PSP as have 
> been discussed on the list over the course of the WGLC and before then. 
> I think you are referring to the use-case that Dan Voyer brought up with 
> legacy hardware - I don't see an issue of being practical and sensitive 
> to real world problems and scenarios. This is what results in actual 
> adoption and deployment success. We have options everywhere - the EH 
> themselves are optional … IIRC HBH options were not so recently made 
> optional out of pure consideration of the actual metal out there in the 
> Internet! /**/😊/*
> 
> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for compliant 
> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been 
> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not 
> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted routing 
> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take care of 
> devices which violate a standard again requires some strong evidence to 
> justify it.
> 
> */[KT] A device can be conformant with RFC8200 even if were punting the 
> packets for local s/w processing in the presence of an EH (or RH in this 
> case). In that case, it would not be doing line-rate forwarding which is 
> the requirement here. This is again a very practical consideration that 
> is rooted in real world problems and deployments. /*
> 
> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the value 
> for PSP.
> 
> */[KT] There have been many use-cases and values expressed for PSP by 
> those that have implemented and deployed it. I can understand if you do 
> not appreciate them. But they are optional and it is unfair to deny it 
> to those who need it./*
> 
> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual 
> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature to a 
> separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming 
> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or programming 
> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this flavor.
> 
> */[KT] I think we can go by the track record through the progression of 
> this draft. The contentious topics related to SRH insertion were removed 
> by the authors based on WG feedback and technical arguments – note this 
> was done after it was a WG document. This WGLC has gone beyond the usual 
> timeframe and resulted in unusually large amount of technical 
> discussions. We do see that the document has undergone through multiple 
> changes to improve the text as well as fix certain issues. /*
> 
> *//*
> 
> */So by no stretch of imagination can we say that the authors have been 
> resistant to change when such a change was technically warranted. I do 
> not believe the removal of PSP makes practical and technical sense for 
> those who have implemented and deployed it with real world scenarios in 
> mind./*
> 
> *//*
> 
> */Thanks,/*
> 
> */Ketan/*
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Joel
> 
> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com 
> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
> 
>  > Fernando
> 
>  >
> 
>  >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando
> 
>  >> Gont
> 
>  >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
> 
>  >> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; 'ietf@ietf.org';
> 
>  >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
>  >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
> 
>  >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> Martin,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim
> 
>  >> that this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills
> 
>  >> for evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is
> 
>  >> including in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
> 
>  >> 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> ---- cut here ----
> 
>  >> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards
> 
>  >> to the benefit of PSP.
> 
>  >> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging
> 
>  >> its level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation
> 
>  >> dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for 
> my platform"
> 
>  >> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
> 
>  >> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet
> 
>  >> processing gain", or "required when combined with a specific other
> 
>  >> feature". I don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this
> 
>  >> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on 
> the hardwares).
> 
>  >> ---- cut here ----
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it
> 
>  >> cannot really understand?
> 
>  >
> 
>  >
> 
>  > There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan 
> (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
> 
>  > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpn
> 
>  > AI/
> 
>  >
> 
>  > My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of final 
> destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate, e.g. in 
> term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
> 
>  > One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your 
> hardware".
> 
>  >
> 
>  > And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not want
> 
>  > to speak for Joel) "Do you have any comments on what appears to be the
> 
>  > significant increase in complexity on the device performing PSP?  The
> 
>  > question I am trying to get at is about the tradeoff, which needs one 
> to evaluate both sides."
> 
>  > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNg
> 
>  > go/
> 
>  >
> 
>  >
> 
>  > So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load of 
> final destination.".
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Thanks,
> 
>  > --Bruno
> 
>  >
> 
>  >> Thanks,
> 
>  >> Fernando
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> 
>  >>> WG,
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
> 
>  >>> consensus for this WG LC.
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge
> 
>  >>> that disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece
> 
>  >>> of text of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to
> 
>  >>> propose an optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of
> 
>  >>> the SPRING WG, I have paid specific attention to the messages ([1],
> 
>  >>> [2], and [3]) sent by the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus
> 
>  >>> to move this document to the next stage.
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> Martin
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> [1]
> 
>  >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rG
> 
>  >>> pcso/
> 
>  >>> [2]
> 
>  >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76F
> 
>  >>> ZmQ0/
> 
>  >>> [3]
> 
>  >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jS
> 
>  >>> IKBc/
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com 
> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> a écrit :
> 
>  >>>> Hello SPRING,
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> 
>  >>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent
> 
>  >>>> version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later 
> than December 20.
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not
> 
>  >>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which
> 
>  >>>> are only spring specifics.
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically
> 
>  >>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread
> 
>  >>>> for this point.
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this
> 
>  >>>> point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get
> 
>  >>>> converted into parallel independent discussions)
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> Thank you,
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> Bruno
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> [1]
> 
>  >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm
> 
>  >>>> ing-05
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> ___________________________________________________________________
> 
>  >>>> ______________________________________________________
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> 
>  >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
> 
>  >>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu
> 
>  >>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le
> 
>  >>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques
> 
>  >>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute
> 
>  >>>> responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
> 
>  >>>> Merci.
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> 
>  >>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should
> 
>  >>>> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> 
>  >>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender
> 
>  >>>> and delete this message and its attachments.
> 
>  >>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that
> 
>  >>>> have been modified, changed or falsified.
> 
>  >>>> Thank you.
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >>>> spring mailing list
> 
>  >>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >>>>
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >>> spring mailing list
> 
>  >>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >>> .
> 
>  >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> --
> 
>  >> Fernando Gont
> 
>  >> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> || 
> fgont@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> PGP
> 
>  >> Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >> spring mailing list
> 
>  >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >
> 
>  > ______________________________________________________________________
> 
>  > ___________________________________________________
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> 
>  > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
> 
>  > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
> 
>  > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi 
> que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles 
> d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete 
> altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> 
>  >
> 
>  > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> 
>  > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not 
> be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> 
>  > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender 
> and delete this message and its attachments.
> 
>  > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have 
> been modified, changed or falsified.
> 
>  > Thank you.
> 
>  >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> spring mailing list
> 
> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Bruno's statement, which you chose to quote, was that all it takes is 
for one person to find something useful.  I was responding to what the 
chair said.  It is not true as stated.

Having said that, I agree that more than one person has asked for this. 
But the actual requirement is that there be a coherent and 
understandable explanation of why the feature adds value.  From where I 
sit, I have not seen such an explanation.  It is generally the unbiased 
chair's job to judge whether sufficient explanation has been given.  But 
what Bruno said was not "explanation ... seems sufficient" but rather 
the text you quoted.  Which is not an accurate statement of IETF policy 
or practice.

If there is a claim that there is significant problems on the ultimate 
node for processing the SRH, I would like to see an explanation of how 
an 8200 compliant node would have such problems.  In particular, unlike 
the MPLS case, the presence or absence of an SRH with SL=0 has no effect 
on the number of forwarding lookups that need to be performed.  And 8200 
requires the ability to ignore a routing header with SL=0.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/4/2020 2:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Surely you are exaggerating when you say "one person" asked for something in the context of PSP? 😊
> 
> Would you like to clarify?
> 
> And also respond on the real life and practical deployment scenarios and considerations that I've pointed out below? I doubt you meant to just dismissing them without sharing your views?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ketan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> Sent: 04 March 2020 13:16
> To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> If we really want to say that it takes only one person asking for something to put it in a planned RFC, then I guess we have to publish all of the competing versions of route headers for v6, since we clealry have more than 1 party asking for each variant?
> Put differently, no, putting something in because one person asked for it (even with the caeat that it appears not to break) is not how the IETF generally works.  I do not know where Bruno got that premise, but it does not match the history or written policies of the IETF.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 3/4/2020 2:43 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>> Hi Joel,
>>
>> I would like to echo the arguments that Bruno has made (and quote part
>> of it) in his summary and then previously on this thread.
>>
>> /QOUTE/
>>
>> /The point was related to the usefulness of the optional feature,
>> which has been challenged./
>>
>> /I was trying to say the required argumentation to declare usefulness
>> or usefulness is asymmetric, from a logical discussion stand point./
>>
>> //
>>
>> /a) It only requires one person to find it useful, in order to make
>> the feature useful (for that person)./
>>
>> /b) In order to state that this is un-useful,  requires to prove that
>> this is never useful./
>>
>> /UNQOUTE/
>>
>> It’s pure logic!
>>
>> Please check inline below.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>> Sent: 03 March 2020 21:54
>> To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; Martin Vigoureux
>> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work around,
>> so I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of
>> itself, enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.
>>
>> */[KT] To start with, there are other/more use-cases for PSP as have
>> been discussed on the list over the course of the WGLC and before then.
>> I think you are referring to the use-case that Dan Voyer brought up
>> with legacy hardware - I don't see an issue of being practical and
>> sensitive to real world problems and scenarios. This is what results
>> in actual adoption and deployment success. We have options everywhere
>> - the EH themselves are optional … IIRC HBH options were not so
>> recently made optional out of pure consideration of the actual metal
>> out there in the Internet! /**/😊/*
>>
>> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for compliant
>> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been
>> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not
>> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted routing
>> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take care
>> of devices which violate a standard again requires some strong
>> evidence to justify it.
>>
>> */[KT] A device can be conformant with RFC8200 even if were punting
>> the packets for local s/w processing in the presence of an EH (or RH
>> in this case). In that case, it would not be doing line-rate
>> forwarding which is the requirement here. This is again a very
>> practical consideration that is rooted in real world problems and
>> deployments. /*
>>
>> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the
>> value for PSP.
>>
>> */[KT] There have been many use-cases and values expressed for PSP by
>> those that have implemented and deployed it. I can understand if you
>> do not appreciate them. But they are optional and it is unfair to deny
>> it to those who need it./*
>>
>> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual
>> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature to a
>> separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming
>> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or programming
>> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this flavor.
>>
>> */[KT] I think we can go by the track record through the progression
>> of this draft. The contentious topics related to SRH insertion were
>> removed by the authors based on WG feedback and technical arguments –
>> note this was done after it was a WG document. This WGLC has gone
>> beyond the usual timeframe and resulted in unusually large amount of
>> technical discussions. We do see that the document has undergone
>> through multiple changes to improve the text as well as fix certain
>> issues. /*
>>
>> *//*
>>
>> */So by no stretch of imagination can we say that the authors have
>> been resistant to change when such a change was technically warranted.
>> I do not believe the removal of PSP makes practical and technical
>> sense for those who have implemented and deployed it with real world
>> scenarios in
>> mind./*
>>
>> *//*
>>
>> */Thanks,/*
>>
>> */Ketan/*
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com
>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>>
>>   > Fernando
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Fernando
>>
>>   >> Gont
>>
>>   >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
>>
>>   >> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; 'ietf@ietf.org';
>>
>>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>   >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>
>>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> Martin,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's
>> claim
>>
>>   >> that this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills
>>
>>   >> for evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is
>>
>>   >> including in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> ---- cut here ----
>>
>>   >> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with
>> regards
>>
>>   >> to the benefit of PSP.
>>
>>   >> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization.
>> Judging
>>
>>   >> its level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation
>>
>>   >> dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required
>> for my platform"
>>
>>   >> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>>
>>   >> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet
>>
>>   >> processing gain", or "required when combined with a specific other
>>
>>   >> feature". I don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate
>> this
>>
>>   >> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on
>> the hardwares).
>>
>>   >> ---- cut here ----
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that
>> it
>>
>>   >> cannot really understand?
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan
>> (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
>>
>>   >
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpn
>>
>>   > AI/
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of
>> final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate,
>> e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
>>
>>   > One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your
>> hardware".
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not
>> want
>>
>>   > to speak for Joel) "Do you have any comments on what appears to be
>> the
>>
>>   > significant increase in complexity on the device performing PSP?
>> The
>>
>>   > question I am trying to get at is about the tradeoff, which needs
>> one to evaluate both sides."
>>
>>   >
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNg
>>
>>   > go/
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load
>> of final destination.".
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Thanks,
>>
>>   > --Bruno
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >> Thanks,
>>
>>   >> Fernando
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
>>
>>   >>> WG,
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
>>
>>   >>> consensus for this WG LC.
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge
>>
>>   >>> that disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular
>> piece
>>
>>   >>> of text of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to
>>
>>   >>> propose an optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product
>> of
>>
>>   >>> the SPRING WG, I have paid specific attention to the messages
>> ([1],
>>
>>   >>> [2], and [3]) sent by the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough
>> consensus
>>
>>   >>> to move this document to the next stage.
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> Martin
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> [1]
>>
>>   >>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rG
>>
>>   >>> pcso/
>>
>>   >>> [2]
>>
>>   >>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76F
>>
>>   >>> ZmQ0/
>>
>>   >>> [3]
>>
>>   >>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jS
>>
>>   >>> IKBc/
>>
>>   >>>
>>
>>   >>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com
>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> a écrit :
>>
>>   >>>> Hello SPRING,
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>>
>>   >>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent
>>
>>   >>>> version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later
>> than December 20.
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider
>> not
>>
>>   >>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments
>> which
>>
>>   >>>> are only spring specifics.
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically
>>
>>   >>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific
>> email/thread
>>
>>   >>>> for this point.
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this
>>
>>   >>>> point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread
>> get
>>
>>   >>>> converted into parallel independent discussions)
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> Thank you,
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> Bruno
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>> [1]
>>
>>   >>>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm
>>
>>   >>>> ing-05
>>
>>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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From: Sai Prasanna G <saiprasanna.g@hcl.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Hemant Koshti <Hemant.Koshti@hcl.com>
Thread-Topic: HCL SRv6 Acceleration on Intel PAC N3000
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Subject: [spring] HCL SRv6 Acceleration on Intel PAC N3000
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Hi

HCL has offloaded CPU intensive functions for SRv6 on the Intel's N3000 PAC=
 which was done in partnership with Bell Canada.

The HCL solution<https://www.intel.com/content/dam/altera-www/global/en_US/=
pdfs/literature/solution-sheets/sb-accelerate-srv6-processing.pdf> based on=
 the Intel FPGA PAC N3000<intel.com/pacn3000> supports the SRv6 endpoint be=
haviors listed below, all of which enable SFC, L2VPN, and L3VPN:

  *   Static proxy (End.AS)
  *   Dynamic proxy (End.AD)
  *   Decapsulation and cross-connect (End.DX)
  *   Decapsulation and specific table lookup (End.DT)

The solution offers a 3x savings in CPU cores - four CPU cores in a hardwar=
e-assisted solution, whereas comparable performance to 12 cores with softwa=
re-based SRv6

To see if hardware-based SRv6 acceleration is right for you, please reach o=
ut to me<mailto:saiprasanna.g@hcl.com> or contact HCL at nfvi_acceleration@=
hcl.com<mailto:nfvi_acceleration@hcl.com>

Thanks and Best Regards,
Sai Prasanna G
+1 (408) 598 7385

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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">HCL has offloaded CPU intensive=
 functions for SRv6 on the Intel&#8217;s N3000 PAC which was done in partne=
rship with
<b>Bell Canada</b>. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The HCL <a href=3D"https://www.intel.com/content/dam=
/altera-www/global/en_US/pdfs/literature/solution-sheets/sb-accelerate-srv6=
-processing.pdf">
solution</a> based on the Intel FPGA PAC <a href=3D"intel.com/pacn3000">N30=
00</a> supports the SRv6 endpoint behaviors listed below, all of which enab=
le SFC, L2VPN, and L3VPN:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Static proxy (End.AS)<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Dynamic proxy (End.AD)<o:p=
></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo1">Decapsulation and cross-connect (End.DX)<o:p></o:p></li><=
li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 l=
fo1">Decapsulation and specific table lookup (End.DT)<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The solution offers a 3x savings in CPU cores &#8211=
; four CPU cores in a hardware-assisted solution, whereas comparable perfor=
mance to 12 cores with software-based SRv6<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">To see if hardware-based SRv6 a=
cceleration is right for you, please reach out to
<a href=3D"mailto:saiprasanna.g@hcl.com">me</a> or contact HCL at <a href=
=3D"mailto:nfvi_acceleration@hcl.com">
nfvi_acceleration@hcl.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks and Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sai Prasanna G<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1 (408) 598 7385<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1">::DISCLAIMER::<br>
<hr>
The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and inte=
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To: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Given that we are talking about the ultimate node, all that it is being 
asked to do is ignore the SRH.  Whether it ignores it because it uses 
the option 8200 permits to ignore things which are understood, or 
ignores it because SL=0, it is required to be able to ignore it.
In either the encapsulated case or the native termination case, the 
result of ignoring it is that the proper things will happen.  The IP 
header will be removed, and what is enclosed will be processed.  (In the 
native case, the upper layer header.  In the encapsulated case, the 
inner header.)

So I am still confused as to what the advantage to any node is of doing 
more work in the preceding node, work that is much more than the act of 
ignoring the header in the final node.  The SRH removal does not remove 
the expensive part of the work, namely the need to decapsulate and 
process the inner header.

Yours,
Joel


On 3/4/2020 3:27 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> I would not like to misquote Bruno, but his conclusion on this topic was 
> very logical, practical and nuanced (again most likely comes from 
> working with a network operator).
> 
> /QOUTE/
> 
> /My take is that PSP is an _optional data plane optimization_. Judging 
> its level of usefulness is _very hardware and implementation dependent_. 
> It may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform" 
> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a 
> vendor), with possible intermediate points along _"n% packet processing 
> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature"_. I 
> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of 
> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares). The 
> fact that this has been implemented by some platforms and deployed by 
> some operators, is, to me, an indication that it is useful for those 
> cases. (I believe that an English proverb is *"the proof of the pudding 
> is in the eating"*. Although I'm certainly missing part of its meaning 
> and culture, in it's literal reading, it seems to apply)./
> 
> /UNQOUTE/
> 
> I don’t believe we need to get into the details of the 18 [1] publicly 
> disclosed (I understand there are more) hardware implementations from 
> multiple vendors to debate the gains from PSP. I don’t believe that is 
> appropriate for an IETF mailing list or pursuant to IETF policy or 
> practice (as you say)?
> 
> Again, I like to make the point of how/why HBH processing was made 
> optional based on real world considerations when moving from RFC2460 to 
> RFC8200. So options are good and necessary!
> 
> That said, let us turn the tables around.  There is no technical reason 
> for not allowing PSP with SRH – all the ones that have been brought up 
> have been answered and clarified in the text as well as on the mailer. 
> So I fail to understand the resistance of “the other side (including 
> yourself)”.
> 
> Therefore, I would suggest we go ahead with the declared Spring WG 
> consensus.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ketan
> 
> [1] 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-05#section-4.2
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
> Sent: 04 March 2020 13:26
> To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>; 
> bruno.decraene@orange.com; Martin Vigoureux 
> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> Bruno's statement, which you chose to quote, was that all it takes is 
> for one person to find something useful.  I was responding to what the 
> chair said.  It is not true as stated.
> 
> Having said that, I agree that more than one person has asked for this.
> 
> But the actual requirement is that there be a coherent and 
> understandable explanation of why the feature adds value.  From where I 
> sit, I have not seen such an explanation.  It is generally the unbiased 
> chair's job to judge whether sufficient explanation has been given.  But 
> what Bruno said was not "explanation ... seems sufficient" but rather 
> the text you quoted.  Which is not an accurate statement of IETF policy 
> or practice.
> 
> If there is a claim that there is significant problems on the ultimate 
> node for processing the SRH, I would like to see an explanation of how 
> an 8200 compliant node would have such problems.  In particular, unlike 
> the MPLS case, the presence or absence of an SRH with SL=0 has no effect 
> on the number of forwarding lookups that need to be performed.  And 8200 
> requires the ability to ignore a routing header with SL=0.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Joel
> 
> On 3/4/2020 2:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
> 
>  > Hi Joel,
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Surely you are exaggerating when you say "one person" asked for
> 
>  > something in the context of PSP? 😊
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Would you like to clarify?
> 
>  >
> 
>  > And also respond on the real life and practical deployment scenarios 
> and considerations that I've pointed out below? I doubt you meant to 
> just dismissing them without sharing your views?
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Thanks,
> 
>  > Ketan
> 
>  >
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
> 
>  > From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
> 
>  > Sent: 04 March 2020 13:16
> 
>  > To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com 
> <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>;
> 
>  > bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>; Martin 
> Vigoureux
> 
>  > <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>; 
> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  > Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
> 
>  > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
>  >
> 
>  > If we really want to say that it takes only one person asking for 
> something to put it in a planned RFC, then I guess we have to publish 
> all of the competing versions of route headers for v6, since we clealry 
> have more than 1 party asking for each variant?
> 
>  > Put differently, no, putting something in because one person asked 
> for it (even with the caeat that it appears not to break) is not how the 
> IETF generally works.  I do not know where Bruno got that premise, but 
> it does not match the history or written policies of the IETF.
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Yours,
> 
>  > Joel
> 
>  >
> 
>  > On 3/4/2020 2:43 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
> 
>  >> Hi Joel,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> I would like to echo the arguments that Bruno has made (and quote
> 
>  >> part of it) in his summary and then previously on this thread.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> /QOUTE/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> /The point was related to the usefulness of the optional feature,
> 
>  >> which has been challenged./
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> /I was trying to say the required argumentation to declare usefulness
> 
>  >> or usefulness is asymmetric, from a logical discussion stand point./
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> //
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> /a) It only requires one person to find it useful, in order to make
> 
>  >> the feature useful (for that person)./
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> /b) In order to state that this is un-useful,  requires to prove that
> 
>  >> this is never useful./
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> /UNQOUTE/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> It’s pure logic!
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> Please check inline below.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> -----Original Message-----
> 
>  >> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> 
>  >> Sent: 03 March 2020 21:54
> 
>  >> To: bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>; 
> Martin Vigoureux
> 
>  >> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>; 
> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
> 
>  >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work around,
> 
>  >> so I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of
> 
>  >> itself, enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */[KT] To start with, there are other/more use-cases for PSP as have
> 
>  >> been discussed on the list over the course of the WGLC and before then.
> 
>  >> I think you are referring to the use-case that Dan Voyer brought up
> 
>  >> with legacy hardware - I don't see an issue of being practical and
> 
>  >> sensitive to real world problems and scenarios. This is what results
> 
>  >> in actual adoption and deployment success. We have options everywhere
> 
>  >> - the EH themselves are optional … IIRC HBH options were not so
> 
>  >> recently made optional out of pure consideration of the actual metal
> 
>  >> out there in the Internet! /**/😊/*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for compliant
> 
>  >> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been
> 
>  >> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not
> 
>  >> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted routing
> 
>  >> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take care
> 
>  >> of devices which violate a standard again requires some strong
> 
>  >> evidence to justify it.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */[KT] A device can be conformant with RFC8200 even if were punting
> 
>  >> the packets for local s/w processing in the presence of an EH (or RH
> 
>  >> in this case). In that case, it would not be doing line-rate
> 
>  >> forwarding which is the requirement here. This is again a very
> 
>  >> practical consideration that is rooted in real world problems and
> 
>  >> deployments. /*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the
> 
>  >> value for PSP.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */[KT] There have been many use-cases and values expressed for PSP by
> 
>  >> those that have implemented and deployed it. I can understand if you
> 
>  >> do not appreciate them. But they are optional and it is unfair to
> 
>  >> deny it to those who need it./*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual
> 
>  >> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature to a
> 
>  >> separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming
> 
>  >> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or programming
> 
>  >> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this 
> flavor.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */[KT] I think we can go by the track record through the progression
> 
>  >> of this draft. The contentious topics related to SRH insertion were
> 
>  >> removed by the authors based on WG feedback and technical arguments –
> 
>  >> note this was done after it was a WG document. This WGLC has gone
> 
>  >> beyond the usual timeframe and resulted in unusually large amount of
> 
>  >> technical discussions. We do see that the document has undergone
> 
>  >> through multiple changes to improve the text as well as fix certain
> 
>  >> issues. /*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> *//*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */So by no stretch of imagination can we say that the authors have
> 
>  >> been resistant to change when such a change was technically warranted.
> 
>  >> I do not believe the removal of PSP makes practical and technical
> 
>  >> sense for those who have implemented and deployed it with real world
> 
>  >> scenarios in
> 
>  >> mind./*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> *//*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */Thanks,/*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> */Ketan/*
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> Yours,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> Joel
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com 
> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> 
>  >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > Fernando
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> 
>  >> Fernando
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Gont
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org> 
> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> 
> <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; 'ietf@ietf.org';
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Martin,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's
> 
>  >> claim
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> that this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary
> 
>  >> skills
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> for evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> including in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >> 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> ---- cut here ----
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with
> 
>  >> regards
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> to the benefit of PSP.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization.
> 
>  >> Judging
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> its level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required
> 
>  >> for my platform"
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> processing gain", or "required when combined with a specific
> 
>  >> other
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> feature". I don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate
> 
>  >> this
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information
> 
>  >> on the hardwares).
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> ---- cut here ----
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that
> 
>  >> it
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> cannot really understand?
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan
> 
>  >> (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWp
> 
>  >> n
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > AI/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of
> 
>  >> final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate,
> 
>  >> e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your
> 
>  >> hardware".
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not
> 
>  >> want
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > to speak for Joel) "Do you have any comments on what appears to
> 
>  >> be the
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > significant increase in complexity on the device performing PSP?
> 
>  >> The
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > question I am trying to get at is about the tradeoff, which needs
> 
>  >> one to evaluate both sides."
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJN
> 
>  >> g
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > go/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load
> 
>  >> of final destination.".
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > Thanks,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > --Bruno
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Thanks,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Fernando
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> WG,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one
> 
>  >> evaluating
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> consensus for this WG LC.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I
> 
>  >> acknowledge
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> that disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular
> 
>  >> piece
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> of text of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> propose an optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product
> 
>  >> of
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> the SPRING WG, I have paid specific attention to the messages
> 
>  >> ([1],
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> [2], and [3]) sent by the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough
> 
>  >> consensus
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> to move this document to the next stage.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> Martin
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> [1]
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rG
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> pcso/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> [2]
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76F
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> ZmQ0/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> [3]
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jS
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> IKBc/
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com 
> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> 
>  >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> a écrit :
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Hello SPRING,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no
> 
>  >> later than December 20.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but
> 
>  >> consider not
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments
> 
>  >> which
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> are only spring specifics.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be
> 
>  >> specifically
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific
> 
>  >> email/thread
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> for this point.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread
> 
>  >> get
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> converted into parallel independent discussions)
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Thank you,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Bruno
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> [1]
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> ing-05
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >> ___________________________________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> ______________________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
> 
>  >> informations
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
> 
>  >> recu
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et
> 
>  >> le
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
> 
>  >> electroniques
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Merci.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they
> 
>  >> should
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> 
>  >> sender
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> and delete this message and its attachments.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
> 
>  >> that
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> have been modified, changed or falsified.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> Thank you.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> spring mailing list
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> spring mailing list
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>> .
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> --
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Fernando Gont
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> 
> <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> ||
> 
>  >> fgont@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> 
> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> PGP
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> spring mailing list
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >> _____________________________________________________________________
> 
>  >> _
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > ___________________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
> 
>  >> informations
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
> 
>  >> diffuses,
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce
> 
>  >> message
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire
> 
>  >> ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant
> 
>  >> susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce
> 
>  >> message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should
> 
>  >> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> 
>  >> sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that
> 
>  >> have been modified, changed or falsified.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   > Thank you.
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >>   >
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> _______________________________________________
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> spring mailing list
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> 
>  >>
> 
>  >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>  >>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "Martin Vigoureux" <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:10:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:37:07 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MMGe0mGywCyULJM-Zk2+GQOy_HyoqGZQF7O1+Y-bjLT8Lg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/sqh-ukgvvscW-_bDxyWmDhrZ97U>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Ketan,

Let's assume following scenario:

                      ----- T1
                     |
A ----  Z ----  P ---- T2
                    |
                      ----- T3


A - is ingress
P - is potential PSP performer
Ts - are egress (from SR pov)

Q1:

Assume T1 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2
Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
SRH depth required is 3

How does A can build SRH for all three SR paths to do PSP only to node T2 ?

sub-Q1:  Is it legal today to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth
supported =3D N and the other with depth =3D 0 ?

Q2:

Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4
Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
SRH depth required is 3

How can A build SRH such that PSP will happen only for very fat flows ?

Q3:

Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 2
Assume P signals PSP =3D 0
SRH depth required is 3

Would A not be able to insert SRH and do any SR in this case ?

Many thx,
R.




On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> Please check inline below.
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 15:41
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>;
> Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com=
>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Ketan,
>
> Lots of thanks for the pointer.
>
>
>
> Here is the text I have found at this reference:
>
>
> 4.4
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#secti=
on-4.4>.
> Maximum End D MSD Type
>
>
>
>
>
>    The Maximum End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an
>
>    SRH when performing decapsulation associated with "End.Dx" behaviors
>
>    (e.g., "End.DX6" and "End.DT6") as defined in
>
>    [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-pr=
ogramming>].
>
>
>
>    SRH Max End D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)
>
>
>
>    If the advertised value is zero or no value is advertised
>
>    then it is assumed that the router cannot apply
>
>    "End.DX6" or "End.DT6" behaviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an =
SRH.
>
>
>
>
>
> I assume that you have actually referred to the highlighted text in this
> section =E2=80=93 is this correct?
>
>
>
> If this is correct then, to the best of my understanding:
>
>    1. The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and
>    to perform certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and n=
ot
>    local between the originator and the penultimate node
>
> *[KT] This is correct.*
>
>    1. It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such
>    a request but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
>
> *[KT] This is not a request to the penultimate SR Endpoint Node. The
> source SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimate SR Endpoint Node when
> it wants it do PSP operation. A router which does not support PSP operati=
on
> (i.e. does not advertise SIDs with those flavors), then the source SR Nod=
e
> will not be able to instruct it to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Source Node
> decides.*
>
>
>
> *Thanks,*
>
> *Ketan*
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>; Joel M.
> Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
> Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> There is the signalling from the "tail-end node" in SRv6 as well. Perhaps
> you missed
> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section=
-4.4
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
>
> Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09
>
> To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <
> agmalis@gmail.com>
>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Joel, Andy and all,
>
> FWIW I concur with your positions regarding comparison between PHP in MPL=
S
> and PSP in SRv6.
>
>
>
> I would also like to stress that, to the best of my understanding,  in
> MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penultimate and ultimate nodes
> with the ultimate node explicitly requesting it and the penultimate one
> giving the option to agree (i.e.to pop the top label when forwarding the
> packet) or disagree (and to swap the top label to Explicit NULL). The
> head-end node (and the rest of the nodes on the path) remain completely
> ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has been introduced - and remains -
> truly optional.
>
>
>
> I have not seen any specifications that would allow the tail-end node of
> an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to explicitly request this
> behavior from the penultimate one, nor do I see would the penultimate nod=
e
> that cannot support PSP do if requested to perform it.  The suggestions I
> have seen that it would be up to the head-end node (that inserts the SRH)
> to indicate that PSP is requested - on behalf of the tail-end node? -  lo=
ok
> problematic to me as well.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM
>
> To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> In this case, it is even less relevant.  The PSP for SRv6 does not remove
> the double-processing.  It merely removes the need to ignore the SRH at t=
he
> ultimate node.
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>
> > MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
>
> > engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP
>
> > lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
>
> > impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
>
> > still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
>
> > implementers should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Andy (who was there at the time)
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net
>
> > <mailto:robert@raszuk.net <robert@raszuk.net>>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >     Hi Ron,
>
> >
>
> >      >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>
> >
>
> >     Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>
> >
>
> >     MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>
> >     last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
>
> >     stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>
> >
>
> >      >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>
> >
>
> >     But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
>
> >     from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
>
> >     "penultimate" word :)
>
> >
>
> >     Kind regards,
>
> >     R.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >     On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
>
> >     <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
>
> >     <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>=
>>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >         Folks,
>
> >
>
> >         I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS
>
> >         PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the
>
> >         time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle of
>
> >         a packet. That is quite a different story.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >                Ron
>
> >
>
> >     _______________________________________________
>
> >     spring mailing list
>
> >     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>>
>
> >
>
> > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%=
2
> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2=
52>
>
> > F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>Hi Ketan,</div><div><br></=
div><div>Let&#39;s assume following scenario:=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T1</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>A ----=C2=
=A0 Z ----=C2=A0 P ---- T2</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T3</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>A - is ingress=C2=
=A0</div><div>P - is potential PSP performer=C2=A0</div><div>Ts - are egres=
s (from SR pov)</div><div><br></div><div>Q1:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>Assume T1 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2=
=C2=A0</div><div>Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P</div><div>SRH depth r=
equired is 3</div><div><br></div><div>How does A can build SRH for all thre=
e SR paths to do PSP only to node T2 ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>sub-Q=
1:=C2=A0 Is it legal today to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth suppo=
rted =3D N and the other with depth =3D 0 ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
Q2:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div>Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capabil=
ity to handle SRH depth =3D 4</div><div>Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID =
P</div><div>SRH depth required is 3</div><div></div></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>How can A build SRH such that PSP will happen only for very fat flows ?=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Q3:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div>Ass=
ume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 2</div><div>Ass=
ume P signals PSP =3D 0</div><div>SRH depth required is 3</div><div></div><=
/div><div><br></div><div>Would A not be able to insert SRH and do any SR in=
 this case ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Many thx,</div><div>R.</div><di=
v><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 4, =
2020 at 11:17 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:4=
0cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-IN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Please check inline below.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 15:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com=
" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.c=
om</a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">K=
etan,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">L=
ots of thanks for the pointer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">H=
ere is the text I have found at this reference:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<h3 style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#section-4.4" target=
=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black">4.4</span></a></span><a=
 name=3D"m_2386904955001255836_section-4.4"></a><span lang=3D"EN">.=C2=A0 M=
aximum End
 D MSD Type<u></u><u></u></span></h3>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Maximum=
 End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH when pe=
rforming decapsulation associated with &quot;End.Dx&quot; behaviors<u></u><=
u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 (e.g., &quo=
t;End.DX6&quot; and &quot;End.DT6&quot;) as defined in<u></u><u></u></span>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 [<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D=
.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming" title=3D"&quot;SRv6 Network Programm=
ing&quot;" target=3D"_blank">I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming</a>].=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH Max End=
 D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)<u></u><u></u></span>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"background:yellow">If the advertised value is zero or no value is adver=
tised<u></u><u></u></span></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"background:yell=
ow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 then it is assumed that the router cannot apply<u></u><u><=
/u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"background:yell=
ow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;End.DX6&quot; or &quot;End.DT6&quot; behaviors if th=
e outer IPv6 header contains an SRH.</span><span lang=3D"EN"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
 assume that you have actually referred to the
<span style=3D"background:yellow">highlighted</span> text in this section =
=E2=80=93 is this correct?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
f this is correct then, to the best of my understanding:<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and to perfo=
rm certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and not local betw=
een the originator and the penultimate
 node<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">[KT] This is correct.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such a reques=
t but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">[KT] This is not a request to the penultimate SR Endpoint Node. The so=
urce SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimate SR Endpoint Node when it =
wants it do PSP operation. A router which does not support PSP
 operation (i.e. does not advertise SIDs with those flavors), then the sour=
ce SR Node will not be able to instruct it to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Sou=
rce Node decides.<u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">Ketan</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">M=
y 2c,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S=
asha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">O=
ffice: +972-39266302<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">C=
ell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">E=
mail:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=
----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;
<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. H=
alpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joe=
lhalpern.com</a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a=
>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">H=
i Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">T=
here is the signalling from the &quot;tail-end node&quot; in SRv6 as well. =
Perhaps you missed
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%=
23section-4.4" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtm=
l%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section-4.4</span></a> ?<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">T=
hanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">K=
etan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=
----Original Message-----<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">F=
rom: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring-bounces@ietf=
.org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S=
ent: 04 March 2020 15:09<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">T=
o: Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">jmh@joelhalpern.=
com</span></a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">a=
gmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">C=
c: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a>; Martin Vigou=
reux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">martin.vigoureux@nokia.=
com</span></a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S=
ubject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">J=
oel, Andy and all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">F=
WIW I concur with your positions regarding comparison between PHP in MPLS a=
nd PSP in SRv6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
 would also like to stress that, to the best of my understanding,=C2=A0 in =
MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penultimate and ultimate nodes wit=
h the ultimate node explicitly requesting it and the penultimate one
 giving the option to agree (<a href=3D"http://i.e.to" target=3D"_blank">i.=
e.to</a> pop the top label when forwarding the packet) or disagree (and to =
swap the top label to Explicit NULL). The head-end node (and the rest of th=
e nodes on the path) remain completely ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP=
 has
 been introduced - and remains - truly optional.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
 have not seen any specifications that would allow the tail-end node of an =
SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to explicitly request this behavio=
r from the penultimate one, nor do I see would the penultimate
 node that cannot support PSP do if requested to perform it.=C2=A0 The sugg=
estions I have seen that it would be up to the head-end node (that inserts =
the SRH) to indicate that PSP is requested - on behalf of the tail-end node=
? -=C2=A0 look problematic to me as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">M=
y 2c,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">R=
egards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S=
asha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">O=
ffice: +972-39266302<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">C=
ell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">E=
mail:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=
----Original Message-----<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">F=
rom: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring-bounces@ietf=
.org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S=
ent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">T=
o: Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">agmalis@gmail.com<=
/span></a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">C=
c: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a>; Martin Vigou=
reux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">martin.vigoureux@nokia.=
com</span></a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S=
ubject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
n this case, it is even less relevant.=C2=A0 The PSP for SRv6 does not remo=
ve the double-processing.=C2=A0 It merely removes the need to ignore the SR=
H at the ultimate node.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Y=
ours,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">J=
oel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">O=
n 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; engines at the time - they couldn&#39;t do a final pop followed by an I=
P
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; implementers should speak up, otherwise there&#39;s really=C2=A0no need=
 for PSP.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Andy (who was there at the time)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robe=
rt@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:robert@raszuk.net</span><=
/a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi Ron,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case=
 of de-encapsulation.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Purely looking at technical aspect that is not =
true at all.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP =
is just used to pop<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=
=A0with remaining label<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can=
 compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I agree with that. Both operations have ver=
y little in common<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 from packet&#39;s standpoint or forwarding apec=
t. Well maybe except<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@d=
marc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none=
">mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Folks,<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that =
you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PHP is a clear case of =
de-encapsulation. We do that all the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time. In SRv6 PSP, we a=
re removing something from the middle of<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a packet. That is quite=
 a different story.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Ron<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 spring mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:spring@ietf.org</span></a=
>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=
=3Dhttps%3A%252" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2</span></a><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; F%<a href=3D"http://2Fwww.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.ietf.org</a=
>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">_=
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ndowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhtt=
ps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring" target=3D"_blank"><s=
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<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
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<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">_=
__________________________________________________________________________<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
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<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">T=
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 e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all copies thereof.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">_=
__________________________________________________________________________<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">_=
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<p class=3D"gmail-m_2386904955001255836MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3GkRJLpXrP2pY9W9t8khQDB6H2?u=3Dhtt=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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</div>
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
CC: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:17:06 +0000
Message-ID: <14D40038-77D4-43DB-AC36-1199EE547944@cisco.com>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <265A3B0A-358B-4163-B7E1-2FFE36B3607E@liquidtelecom.com>
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To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From nobody Wed Mar  4 04:22:00 2020
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Pablo Camarillo Garvia
                          John Leddy
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Zhenbin Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-04

Abstract:
   The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
   an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
   encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.

   Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
   network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.

   This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
   specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
   interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
   Agreements).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Thread-Topic: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:31:55 +0000
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:31:03 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MME2tW3UstHgfQap1fqH2miJL7=8mUEVz_Rm6--oTN670g@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Ketan,

So essentially you are confirming that subject to topology in worst case I
need to double the flooding amount of SIDs in my network to support both
PSP and non PSP operation. I think if we would consider PSP as optional or
on-demand behaviour we could architect it without the need for double
flooding node's SIDs just to indicate in one PSP=3D0 and in the other one P=
SP
!=3D0 (which by itself is still subject to given IGP and SR code even
allowing you to do that).

Thx,
R.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
>
>
> Please check inline below.
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 16:07
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> spring@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> Let's assume following scenario:
>
>
>
>                       ----- T1
>
>                      |
>
> A ----  Z ----  P ---- T2
>
>                     |
>
>                       ----- T3
>
>
>
>
>
> A - is ingress
>
> P - is potential PSP performer
>
> Ts - are egress (from SR pov)
>
>
>
> Q1:
>
>
>
> Assume T1 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2
>
> Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
>
> SRH depth required is 3
>
>
>
> How does A can build SRH for all three SR paths to do PSP only to node T2
> ?
>
>
>
> sub-Q1:  Is it legal today to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth
> supported =3D N and the other with depth =3D 0 ?
>
> *[KT] The MSD support is advertised at node level. The node P can
> advertise say two End SID =E2=80=93 one with PSP and another without it. =
The SR
> Source Node picks up which of the two End SIDs to pick based on the
> capabilities of the egress nodes. Ultimately, the SR Source Node A decide=
s
> and instructs P what it needs to do for each of the 3 paths.*
>
>
>
> Q2:
>
>
>
> Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4
>
> Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
>
> SRH depth required is 3
>
>
>
> How can A build SRH such that PSP will happen only for very fat flows ?
>
> *[KT] As in the previous example, A can make a choice on a per flow basis
> by picking up the PSP or non-PSP flavor of P=E2=80=99s SIDs.*
>
>
>
> Q3:
>
>
>
> Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 2
>
> Assume P signals PSP =3D 0
>
> SRH depth required is 3
>
>
>
> Would A not be able to insert SRH and do any SR in this case ?
>
> *[KT] Yes, A cannot generate a packet with SRH with 3 segments destined t=
o
> the T nodes in such a case.*
>
>
>
> *Thanks,*
>
> *Ketan*
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D
> 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> Please check inline below.
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 15:41
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf..org <spring@ietf.org>; Martin Vigoureux <
> martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
> Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Ketan,
>
> Lots of thanks for the pointer.
>
>
>
> Here is the text I have found at this reference:
>
>
> 4.4
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#secti=
on-4.4>.
> Maximum End D MSD Type
>
>
>
>
>
>    The Maximum End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an
>
>    SRH when performing decapsulation associated with "End.Dx" behaviors
>
>    (e.g., "End.DX6" and "End.DT6") as defined in
>
>    [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D..ietf-spring-srv6-network-p=
rogramming>].
>
>
>
>    SRH Max End D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)
>
>
>
>    If the advertised value is zero or no value is advertised
>
>    then it is assumed that the router cannot apply
>
>    "End.DX6" or "End.DT6" behaviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an =
SRH.
>
>
>
>
>
> I assume that you have actually referred to the highlighted text in this
> section =E2=80=93 is this correct?
>
>
>
> If this is correct then, to the best of my understanding:
>
>    1. The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and
>    to perform certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and n=
ot
>    local between the originator and the penultimate node
>
> *[KT] This is correct.*
>
>    1. It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such
>    a request but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
>
> *[KT] This is not a request to the penultimate SR Endpoint Node. The
> source SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimate SR Endpoint Node when
> it wants it do PSP operation. A router which does not support PSP operati=
on
> (i.e. does not advertise SIDs with those flavors), then the source SR Nod=
e
> will not be able to instruct it to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Source Node
> decides.*
>
>
>
> *Thanks,*
>
> *Ketan*
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele..com>>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.co=
m>;
> Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
> Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> There is the signalling from the "tail-end node" in SRv6 as well. Perhaps
> you missed
> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section=
-4.4
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf..org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On
> Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
>
> Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09
>
> To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <
> agmalis@gmail.com>
>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Joel, Andy and all,
>
> FWIW I concur with your positions regarding comparison between PHP in MPL=
S
> and PSP in SRv6.
>
>
>
> I would also like to stress that, to the best of my understanding,  in
> MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penultimate and ultimate nodes
> with the ultimate node explicitly requesting it and the penultimate one
> giving the option to agree (i.e.to pop the top label when forwarding the
> packet) or disagree (and to swap the top label to Explicit NULL). The
> head-end node (and the rest of the nodes on the path) remain completely
> ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has been introduced - and remains -
> truly optional.
>
>
>
> I have not seen any specifications that would allow the tail-end node of
> an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to explicitly request this
> behavior from the penultimate one, nor do I see would the penultimate nod=
e
> that cannot support PSP do if requested to perform it.  The suggestions I
> have seen that it would be up to the head-end node (that inserts the SRH)
> to indicate that PSP is requested - on behalf of the tail-end node? -  lo=
ok
> problematic to me as well.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf..org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On
> Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM
>
> To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> In this case, it is even less relevant.  The PSP for SRv6 does not remove
> the double-processing.  It merely removes the need to ignore the SRH at t=
he
> ultimate node.
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>
> > MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
>
> > engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP
>
> > lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
>
> > impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
>
> > still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
>
> > implementers should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Andy (who was there at the time)
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net
>
> > <mailto:robert@raszuk.net <robert@raszuk.net>>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >     Hi Ron,
>
> >
>
> >      >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>
> >
>
> >     Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>
> >
>
> >     MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>
> >     last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
>
> >     stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>
> >
>
> >      >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>
> >
>
> >     But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
>
> >     from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
>
> >     "penultimate" word :)
>
> >
>
> >     Kind regards,
>
> >     R.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >     On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
>
> >     <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
>
> >     <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>=
>>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >         Folks,
>
> >
>
> >         I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS
>
> >         PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the
>
> >         time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle of
>
> >         a packet. That is quite a different story.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >                Ron
>
> >
>
> >     _______________________________________________
>
> >     spring mailing list
>
> >     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>>
>
> >
>
> > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%=
2
> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2=
52>
>
> > F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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--0000000000004af3b005a0076fc8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ketan,<div><br></div><div>So essentially you are confir=
ming that subject to topology in worst case I need to double the flooding a=
mount of SIDs in my network to support both PSP and non PSP operation. I th=
ink if we would consider PSP as optional or on-demand behaviour we could ar=
chitect it without the need for double flooding node&#39;s SIDs just to ind=
icate in one PSP=3D0 and in the other one PSP !=3D0 (which by itself is sti=
ll subject to given IGP and SR code even allowing you to do that).=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thx,<br>R.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Keta=
n Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com">ketant@cisco.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-IN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Please check inline below.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 16:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; <a=
 href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ketan,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let&#39;s assume following scenario:=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A ----=C2=A0 Z ----=C2=A0 P ---- T2<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T3<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A - is ingress=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P - is potential PSP performer=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ts - are egress (from SR pov)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Q1:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume T1 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH dep=
th =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does A can build SRH for all three SR paths to d=
o PSP only to node T2 ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">sub-Q1:=C2=A0 Is it legal today to signal by P two S=
IDs one with PSP depth supported =3D N and the other with depth =3D 0 ?=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[KT] The MSD support is advertised at node lev=
el. The node P can advertise say two End SID =E2=80=93 one with PSP and ano=
ther without it. The SR Source Node picks up which of the two End SIDs to p=
ick based on the capabilities of the egress
 nodes. Ultimately, the SR Source Node A decides and instructs P what it ne=
eds to do for each of the 3 paths.</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Q2:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH=
 depth =3D 4<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can A build SRH such that PSP will happen only f=
or very fat flows ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[KT] As in the previous example, A can make a =
choice on a per flow basis by picking up the PSP or non-PSP flavor of P=E2=
=80=99s SIDs.</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Q3:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH=
 depth =3D 2<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume P signals PSP =3D 0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would A not be able to insert SRH and do any SR in t=
his case ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[KT] Yes, A cannot generate a packet with SRH =
with 3 segments destined to the T nodes in such a case.<u></u><u></u></i></=
b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Ketan</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thx,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">R.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ke=
tant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please check inline below.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 15:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
..org</a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.=
com</a>&gt;;
 Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ketan,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Lots of thanks for the pointer.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Here is the text I have found at this reference:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<h3 style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#section-4.4" target=
=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black">4.4</span></a></span><a=
 name=3D"m_-6300854329822182090_m_2386904955001255836_section-4.4"></a><spa=
n lang=3D"EN">.=C2=A0
 Maximum End D MSD Type</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Maximum=
 End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH when pe=
rforming decapsulation associated with &quot;End.Dx&quot; behaviors</span><=
u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 (e.g., &quo=
t;End.DX6&quot; and &quot;End.DT6&quot;) as defined in</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 [<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D=
..ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming" title=3D"&quot;SRv6 Network Program=
ming&quot;" target=3D"_blank">I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming</a>]=
.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH Max End=
 D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"color:black;background:yellow">If the advertised value is zero or no va=
lue is advertised</span></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black;bac=
kground:yellow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 then it is assumed that the router cannot appl=
y</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black;bac=
kground:yellow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;End.DX6&quot; or &quot;End.DT6&quot; beh=
aviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an SRH.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I assume that you have actually referred to the
<span style=3D"color:black;background:yellow">highlighted</span> text in th=
is section =E2=80=93 is this correct?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If this is correct then, to the best of my unders=
tanding:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplain=
text">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process=
 the SRH and to perform certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is glob=
al and not local between the originator and the penultimate node</span><u><=
/u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">[KT] This is correct.</span></i></b><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplain=
text">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">It is not clear what the penultimate router that has r=
eceived such a request but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
</span><u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">[KT] This is not a request to the penultima=
te SR Endpoint Node. The source SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimat=
e SR Endpoint Node when it wants it do PSP operation. A router which
 does not support PSP operation (i.e. does not advertise SIDs with those fl=
avors), then the source SR Node will not be able to instruct it to do PSP. =
Ultimately the SR Source Node decides.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ketan</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">My 2c,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Office: +972-39266302</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-54926630=
2</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;
<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
..com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. =
Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@jo=
elhalpern.com</a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a=
>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Sasha,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">There is the signalling from the &quot;tail-end n=
ode&quot; in SRv6 as well. Perhaps you missed
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%=
23section-4.4" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtm=
l%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section-4.4</span></a> ?</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ketan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoratio=
n:none">spring-bounces@ietf..org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Alexander Vain=
shtein</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">To: Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joe=
lhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decora=
tion:none">jmh@joelhalpern.com</span></a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:window=
text;text-decoration:none">agmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-sr=
v6-network-programming</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Joel, Andy and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">FWIW I concur with your positions regarding compa=
rison between PHP in MPLS and PSP in SRv6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I would also like to stress that, to the best of =
my understanding,=C2=A0 in MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penulti=
mate and ultimate nodes with the ultimate node explicitly requesting
 it and the penultimate one giving the option to agree (<a href=3D"http://i=
.e.to" target=3D"_blank">i.e.to</a> pop the top label when forwarding the p=
acket) or disagree (and to swap the top label to Explicit NULL). The head-e=
nd node (and the rest of the nodes on
 the path) remain completely ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has been =
introduced - and remains - truly optional.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have not seen any specifications that would all=
ow the tail-end node of an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to expl=
icitly request this behavior from the penultimate one, nor do I
 see would the penultimate node that cannot support PSP do if requested to =
perform it.=C2=A0 The suggestions I have seen that it would be up to the he=
ad-end node (that inserts the SRH) to indicate that PSP is requested - on b=
ehalf of the tail-end node? -=C2=A0 look problematic
 to me as well.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">My 2c,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Office: +972-39266302</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-54926630=
2</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoratio=
n:none">spring-bounces@ietf..org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Joel M. Halper=
n</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">To: Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decorati=
on:none">agmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-sr=
v6-network-programming</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In this case, it is even less relevant.=C2=A0 The=
 PSP for SRv6 does not remove the double-processing.=C2=A0 It merely remove=
s the need to ignore the SRH at the ultimate node.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yours,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Joel</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular =
issue with some forwarding
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; engines at the time - they couldn&#39;t do a=
 final pop followed by an IP
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; lookup and forward operation in a single for=
warding cycle (it would
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 2=
0 years later, is this
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; still an issue at the hardware/firmware leve=
l? If so, affected
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; implementers should speak up, otherwise ther=
e&#39;s really=C2=A0no need for PSP.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Andy (who was there at the time)</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.n=
et</a>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto=
:robert@raszuk.net</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi Ron,</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Purely looking at te=
chnical aspect that is not true at all.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS PHP does not re=
move label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 last label. After MP=
LS PHP packets continue=C2=A0with remaining label</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stack to the egress =
LSR (example L3VPN PE).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 I d=
on&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I agree with tha=
t. Both operations have very little in common</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 from packet&#39;s st=
andpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;penultimate&qu=
ot; word :)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kind regards,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 =
at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;rbonica=3D<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@d=
marc.ietf.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:wind=
owtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>=
&gt;&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Folks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle of</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 a packet. That is quite a different story.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6300854329822182090gmail-m2386904955001255836msoplaint=
ext"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <8259d37e-b460-5f76-1ce6-b0d026bccf6b@gont.com.ar> <20143_1583250558_5E5E7C7E_20143_390_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD80E6@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5d693a5e-baa0-6ffb-4e39-2695795b7413@joelhalpern.com> <MW3PR11MB457071CFC70E5F1F9CBA3A79C1E50@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <d38e0835-22e6-cc60-b479-454bec33718f@joelhalpern.com> <MW3PR11MB4570A58DA2DBD870A5D92974C1E50@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <80c4817d-c053-a66f-67eb-3e81af2d49d5@joelhalpern.com> <MW3PR11MB45705454C47A38679B6CDF67C1E50@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <7cc38d35-0139-7958-0393-7a24d0a5b276@joelhalpern.com> <335d93d7ee624fb689b8dbcce3aa60cc@huawei.com>
From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Jingrong, the only "processing" of the SRH required in the ultimate node 
is to ignore it.  Which is required by 8200.

Skipping the SRH is not a 50% performance penalty in any situation.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/4/2020 8:36 AM, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) wrote:
> Hi Joel, Ketan,
> Let me share my points about the statement "The SRH removal does not remove the expensive part of the work, namely the need to decapsulate and process the inner header."
> For the ultimate segment endpoint that is well capable of processing SRH, the statement is true I think. I guess the benefits may be around 50%?
> While for the real network, the incremental deployment may be much more important ---- It is determining, from 1(success) to 0(fail) or vice versa!
> No matter how good a feature you provided, it just doesn't work on the network with a bunch of PEs that is not capable of SRH, then it is useless.
> 
> **Maybe my previously suggested text can be referenced**
> This has some very important benefits for deployment in some networks when the
> final tunnel end point is a lower-end node which is not capable of processing
> the SRH for reasons like the hardware is overloaded or unable to upgraded to
> process well with SRH.
> 
> In case the final tunnel endpoint router is fully capable of the functionality
> of SRH and the SRv6-NP defined in this document, it is recommended not to use
> the PSP.
> **End for reference**
> 
> Thanks
> Jingrong
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:34 PM
> To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> Given that we are talking about the ultimate node, all that it is being asked to do is ignore the SRH.  Whether it ignores it because it uses the option 8200 permits to ignore things which are understood, or ignores it because SL=0, it is required to be able to ignore it.
> In either the encapsulated case or the native termination case, the result of ignoring it is that the proper things will happen.  The IP header will be removed, and what is enclosed will be processed.  (In the native case, the upper layer header.  In the encapsulated case, the inner header.)
> 
> So I am still confused as to what the advantage to any node is of doing more work in the preceding node, work that is much more than the act of ignoring the header in the final node.  The SRH removal does not remove the expensive part of the work, namely the need to decapsulate and process the inner header.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> 
> On 3/4/2020 3:27 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>> Hi Joel,
>>
>> I would not like to misquote Bruno, but his conclusion on this topic
>> was very logical, practical and nuanced (again most likely comes from
>> working with a network operator).
>>
>> /QOUTE/
>>
>> /My take is that PSP is an _optional data plane optimization_. Judging
>> its level of usefulness is _very hardware and implementation dependent_.
>> It may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
>> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>> vendor), with possible intermediate points along _"n% packet
>> processing gain", or "required when combined with a specific other
>> feature"_. I don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this
>> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the
>> hardwares). The fact that this has been implemented by some platforms
>> and deployed by some operators, is, to me, an indication that it is
>> useful for those cases. (I believe that an English proverb is *"the
>> proof of the pudding is in the eating"*. Although I'm certainly
>> missing part of its meaning and culture, in it's literal reading, it
>> seems to apply)./
>>
>> /UNQOUTE/
>>
>> I don’t believe we need to get into the details of the 18 [1] publicly
>> disclosed (I understand there are more) hardware implementations from
>> multiple vendors to debate the gains from PSP. I don’t believe that is
>> appropriate for an IETF mailing list or pursuant to IETF policy or
>> practice (as you say)?
>>
>> Again, I like to make the point of how/why HBH processing was made
>> optional based on real world considerations when moving from RFC2460
>> to RFC8200. So options are good and necessary!
>>
>> That said, let us turn the tables around.  There is no technical
>> reason for not allowing PSP with SRH – all the ones that have been
>> brought up have been answered and clarified in the text as well as on the mailer.
>> So I fail to understand the resistance of “the other side (including
>> yourself)”.
>>
>> Therefore, I would suggest we go ahead with the declared Spring WG
>> consensus.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ketan
>>
>> [1]
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-st
>> atus-05#section-4.2
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
>> Sent: 04 March 2020 13:26
>> To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>;
>> bruno.decraene@orange.com; Martin Vigoureux
>> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> Bruno's statement, which you chose to quote, was that all it takes is
>> for one person to find something useful.  I was responding to what the
>> chair said.  It is not true as stated.
>>
>> Having said that, I agree that more than one person has asked for this.
>>
>> But the actual requirement is that there be a coherent and
>> understandable explanation of why the feature adds value.  From where
>> I sit, I have not seen such an explanation.  It is generally the
>> unbiased chair's job to judge whether sufficient explanation has been
>> given.  But what Bruno said was not "explanation ... seems sufficient"
>> but rather the text you quoted.  Which is not an accurate statement of
>> IETF policy or practice.
>>
>> If there is a claim that there is significant problems on the ultimate
>> node for processing the SRH, I would like to see an explanation of how
>> an 8200 compliant node would have such problems.  In particular,
>> unlike the MPLS case, the presence or absence of an SRH with SL=0 has
>> no effect on the number of forwarding lookups that need to be
>> performed.  And 8200 requires the ability to ignore a routing header with SL=0.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> On 3/4/2020 2:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>>
>>   > Hi Joel,
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Surely you are exaggerating when you say "one person" asked for
>>
>>   > something in the context of PSP? 😊
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Would you like to clarify?
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > And also respond on the real life and practical deployment
>> scenarios and considerations that I've pointed out below? I doubt you
>> meant to just dismissing them without sharing your views?
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Thanks,
>>
>>   > Ketan
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > -----Original Message-----
>>
>>   > From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
>> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>>
>>   > Sent: 04 March 2020 13:16
>>
>>   > To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>> <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>;
>>
>>   > bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>;
>> Martin Vigoureux
>>
>>   > <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>;
>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   > Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>
>>   > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > If we really want to say that it takes only one person asking for
>> something to put it in a planned RFC, then I guess we have to publish
>> all of the competing versions of route headers for v6, since we
>> clealry have more than 1 party asking for each variant?
>>
>>   > Put differently, no, putting something in because one person asked
>> for it (even with the caeat that it appears not to break) is not how
>> the IETF generally works.  I do not know where Bruno got that premise,
>> but it does not match the history or written policies of the IETF.
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Yours,
>>
>>   > Joel
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > On 3/4/2020 2:43 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>>
>>   >> Hi Joel,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> I would like to echo the arguments that Bruno has made (and quote
>>
>>   >> part of it) in his summary and then previously on this thread.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> /QOUTE/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> /The point was related to the usefulness of the optional feature,
>>
>>   >> which has been challenged./
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> /I was trying to say the required argumentation to declare
>> usefulness
>>
>>   >> or usefulness is asymmetric, from a logical discussion stand
>> point./
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> //
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> /a) It only requires one person to find it useful, in order to
>> make
>>
>>   >> the feature useful (for that person)./
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> /b) In order to state that this is un-useful,  requires to prove
>> that
>>
>>   >> this is never useful./
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> /UNQOUTE/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> It’s pure logic!
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> Please check inline below.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>   >> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>> <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>>
>>   >> Sent: 03 March 2020 21:54
>>
>>   >> To: bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>;
>> Martin Vigoureux
>>
>>   >> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>;
>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>
>>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work
>> around,
>>
>>   >> so I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of
>>
>>   >> itself, enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */[KT] To start with, there are other/more use-cases for PSP as
>> have
>>
>>   >> been discussed on the list over the course of the WGLC and before then.
>>
>>   >> I think you are referring to the use-case that Dan Voyer brought
>> up
>>
>>   >> with legacy hardware - I don't see an issue of being practical and
>>
>>   >> sensitive to real world problems and scenarios. This is what
>> results
>>
>>   >> in actual adoption and deployment success. We have options
>> everywhere
>>
>>   >> - the EH themselves are optional … IIRC HBH options were not so
>>
>>   >> recently made optional out of pure consideration of the actual
>> metal
>>
>>   >> out there in the Internet! /**/😊/*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for
>> compliant
>>
>>   >> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been
>>
>>   >> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not
>>
>>   >> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted
>> routing
>>
>>   >> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take
>> care
>>
>>   >> of devices which violate a standard again requires some strong
>>
>>   >> evidence to justify it.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */[KT] A device can be conformant with RFC8200 even if were
>> punting
>>
>>   >> the packets for local s/w processing in the presence of an EH (or
>> RH
>>
>>   >> in this case). In that case, it would not be doing line-rate
>>
>>   >> forwarding which is the requirement here. This is again a very
>>
>>   >> practical consideration that is rooted in real world problems and
>>
>>   >> deployments. /*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the
>>
>>   >> value for PSP.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */[KT] There have been many use-cases and values expressed for PSP
>> by
>>
>>   >> those that have implemented and deployed it. I can understand if
>> you
>>
>>   >> do not appreciate them. But they are optional and it is unfair to
>>
>>   >> deny it to those who need it./*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual
>>
>>   >> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature
>> to a
>>
>>   >> separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming
>>
>>   >> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or
>> programming
>>
>>   >> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this
>> flavor.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */[KT] I think we can go by the track record through the
>> progression
>>
>>   >> of this draft. The contentious topics related to SRH insertion
>> were
>>
>>   >> removed by the authors based on WG feedback and technical
>> arguments –
>>
>>   >> note this was done after it was a WG document. This WGLC has gone
>>
>>   >> beyond the usual timeframe and resulted in unusually large amount
>> of
>>
>>   >> technical discussions. We do see that the document has undergone
>>
>>   >> through multiple changes to improve the text as well as fix
>> certain
>>
>>   >> issues. /*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> *//*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */So by no stretch of imagination can we say that the authors have
>>
>>   >> been resistant to change when such a change was technically warranted.
>>
>>   >> I do not believe the removal of PSP makes practical and technical
>>
>>   >> sense for those who have implemented and deployed it with real
>> world
>>
>>   >> scenarios in
>>
>>   >> mind./*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> *//*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */Thanks,/*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> */Ketan/*
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> Yours,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> Joel
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com
>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>>
>>   >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > Fernando
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>
>>   >> Fernando
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Gont
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>
>> <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; 'ietf@ietf.org';
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Martin,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's
>>
>>   >> claim
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> that this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary
>>
>>   >> skills
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> for evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg
>> is
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> including in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> ---- cut here ----
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with
>>
>>   >> regards
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> to the benefit of PSP.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization.
>>
>>   >> Judging
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> its level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed" to
>> "required
>>
>>   >> for my platform"
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you
>> are a
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> processing gain", or "required when combined with a specific
>>
>>   >> other
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> feature". I don't think that the SPRING WG can really
>> evaluate
>>
>>   >> this
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed
>> information
>>
>>   >> on the hardwares).
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> ---- cut here ----
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something
>> that
>>
>>   >> it
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> cannot really understand?
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From
>> Dan
>>
>>   >> (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWp
>>
>>   >> n
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > AI/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of
>>
>>   >> final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to
>> evaluate,
>>
>>   >> e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in
>> your
>>
>>   >> hardware".
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would
>> not
>>
>>   >> want
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > to speak for Joel) "Do you have any comments on what appears
>> to
>>
>>   >> be the
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > significant increase in complexity on the device performing PSP?
>>
>>   >> The
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > question I am trying to get at is about the tradeoff, which
>> needs
>>
>>   >> one to evaluate both sides."
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJN
>>
>>   >> g
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > go/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the
>> load
>>
>>   >> of final destination.".
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > Thanks,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > --Bruno
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Thanks,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Fernando
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> WG,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one
>>
>>   >> evaluating
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> consensus for this WG LC.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I
>>
>>   >> acknowledge
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> that disagreements were expressed regarding what a
>> particular
>>
>>   >> piece
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> of text of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds
>> to
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> propose an optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a
>> product
>>
>>   >> of
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> the SPRING WG, I have paid specific attention to the
>> messages
>>
>>   >> ([1],
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> [2], and [3]) sent by the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough
>>
>>   >> consensus
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> to move this document to the next stage.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> Martin
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> [1]
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rG
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> pcso/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> [2]
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76F
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> ZmQ0/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> [3]
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jS
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> IKBc/
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com
>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>>
>>   >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> a écrit :
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Hello SPRING,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most
>> recent
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no
>>
>>   >> later than December 20.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but
>>
>>   >> consider not
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the
>> comments
>>
>>   >> which
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> are only spring specifics.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be
>>
>>   >> specifically
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific
>>
>>   >> email/thread
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> for this point.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to
>> this
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> point and that other points get forgotten (or that the
>> thread
>>
>>   >> get
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> converted into parallel independent discussions)
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Thank you,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Bruno
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> [1]
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> ing-05
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> ______________________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
>>
>>   >> informations
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous
>> avez
>>
>>   >> recu
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur
>> et
>>
>>   >> le
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
>>
>>   >> electroniques
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Merci.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential
>> or
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they
>>
>>   >> should
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the
>>
>>   >> sender
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> and delete this message and its attachments.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
>>
>>   >> that
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> Thank you.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> spring mailing list
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> spring mailing list
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>> .
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> --
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Fernando Gont
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>
>> <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> ||
>>
>>   >> fgont@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>
>> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> PGP
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076
>> FFF1
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> _______________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> spring mailing list
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>   >> _
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > ___________________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
>>
>>   >> informations
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
>>
>>   >> diffuses,
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce
>>
>>   >> message
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire
>>
>>   >> ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant
>>
>>   >> susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si
>> ce
>>
>>   >> message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > privileged information that may be protected by law; they
>> should
>>
>>   >> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > If you have received this email in error, please notify the
>>
>>   >> sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
>> that
>>
>>   >> have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   > Thank you.
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >>   >
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> _______________________________________________
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> spring mailing list
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>   >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>>   >>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:00:36 +0100
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To: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Dear WWB,

I think we are talking about the same thing ... behaviour to do or not to
do PSP is embedded into SID. So to have two options you have to have two
SIDs today advertised by IGP.

I am just gently suggesting that to support both you could have algorithmic
option (odd SID - PHP, even SID no PHP) and need to only signal one -
keeping the other one reserved per node but not signalled).

Thx,
R.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:56 PM Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) <
weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com> wrote:

> Inline;
>
> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:31 PM
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> So essentially you are confirming that subject to topology in worst case =
I
> need to double the flooding amount of SIDs in my network to support both
> PSP and non PSP operation. I think if we would consider PSP as optional o=
r
> on-demand behaviour we could architect it without the need for double
> flooding node's SIDs just to indicate in one PSP=3D0 and in the other one=
 PSP
> !=3D0 (which by itself is still subject to given IGP and SR code even
> allowing you to do that).
>
>
>
> Hi Robert:
>
> In my understanding, one behavior id (16bits) is only correspond to one
> SID, and the 0 is reserved as defined in SRv6 NPG draft, PSP is flavor an=
d
> is never used alone.
>
>
>
> Thx;
>
> WWB;
>
>
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <
> ketant@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
>
>
> Please check inline below.
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 16:07
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> spring@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> Let's assume following scenario:
>
>
>
>                       ----- T1
>
>                      |
>
> A ----  Z ----  P ---- T2
>
>                     |
>
>                       ----- T3
>
>
>
>
>
> A - is ingress
>
> P - is potential PSP performer
>
> Ts - are egress (from SR pov)
>
>
>
> Q1:
>
>
>
> Assume T1 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2
>
> Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
>
> SRH depth required is 3
>
>
>
> How does A can build SRH for all three SR paths to do PSP only to node T2
> ?
>
>
>
> sub-Q1:  Is it legal today to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth
> supported =3D N and the other with depth =3D 0 ?
>
> *[KT] The MSD support is advertised at node level. The node P can
> advertise say two End SID =E2=80=93 one with PSP and another without it. =
The SR
> Source Node picks up which of the two End SIDs to pick based on the
> capabilities of the egress nodes. Ultimately, the SR Source Node A decide=
s
> and instructs P what it needs to do for each of the 3 paths.*
>
>
>
> Q2:
>
>
>
> Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4
>
> Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
>
> SRH depth required is 3
>
>
>
> How can A build SRH such that PSP will happen only for very fat flows ?
>
> *[KT] As in the previous example, A can make a choice on a per flow basis
> by picking up the PSP or non-PSP flavor of P=E2=80=99s SIDs.*
>
>
>
> Q3:
>
>
>
> Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 2
>
> Assume P signals PSP =3D 0
>
> SRH depth required is 3
>
>
>
> Would A not be able to insert SRH and do any SR in this case ?
>
> *[KT] Yes, A cannot generate a packet with SRH with 3 segments destined t=
o
> the T nodes in such a case.*
>
>
>
> *Thanks,*
>
> *Ketan*
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D
> 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> Please check inline below.
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 15:41
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf...org <spring@ietf.org>; Martin Vigoureux <
> martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
> Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Ketan,
>
> Lots of thanks for the pointer.
>
>
>
> Here is the text I have found at this reference:
>
>
> 4.4
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#secti=
on-4.4>.
> Maximum End D MSD Type
>
>
>
>
>
>    The Maximum End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an
>
>    SRH when performing decapsulation associated with "End.Dx" behaviors
>
>    (e.g., "End.DX6" and "End.DT6") as defined in
>
>    [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D...ietf-spring-srv6-network-=
programming>]..
>
>
>
>    SRH Max End D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)
>
>
>
>    If the advertised value is zero or no value is advertised
>
>    then it is assumed that the router cannot apply
>
>    "End.DX6" or "End.DT6" behaviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an =
SRH.
>
>
>
>
>
> I assume that you have actually referred to the highlighted text in this
> section =E2=80=93 is this correct?
>
>
>
> If this is correct then, to the best of my understanding:
>
>    1. The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and
>    to perform certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and n=
ot
>    local between the originator and the penultimate node
>
> *[KT] This is correct.*
>
>    1. It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such
>    a request but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
>
> *[KT] This is not a request to the penultimate SR Endpoint Node. The
> source SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimate SR Endpoint Node when
> it wants it do PSP operation. A router which does not support PSP operati=
on
> (i.e. does not advertise SIDs with those flavors), then the source SR Nod=
e
> will not be able to instruct it to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Source Node
> decides.*
>
>
>
> *Thanks,*
>
> *Ketan*
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele...com>>; Joel M. Halpern <
> jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
> Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> There is the signalling from the "tail-end node" in SRv6 as well. Perhaps
> you missed
> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section=
-4.4
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf..org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On
> Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
>
> Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09
>
> To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <
> agmalis@gmail.com>
>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Joel, Andy and all,
>
> FWIW I concur with your positions regarding comparison between PHP in MPL=
S
> and PSP in SRv6.
>
>
>
> I would also like to stress that, to the best of my understanding,  in
> MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penultimate and ultimate nodes
> with the ultimate node explicitly requesting it and the penultimate one
> giving the option to agree (i.e.to <http://i..e.to> pop the top label
> when forwarding the packet) or disagree (and to swap the top label to
> Explicit NULL). The head-end node (and the rest of the nodes on the path)
> remain completely ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has been introduce=
d
> - and remains - truly optional.
>
>
>
> I have not seen any specifications that would allow the tail-end node of
> an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to explicitly request this
> behavior from the penultimate one, nor do I see would the penultimate nod=
e
> that cannot support PSP do if requested to perform it.  The suggestions I
> have seen that it would be up to the head-end node (that inserts the SRH)
> to indicate that PSP is requested - on behalf of the tail-end node? -  lo=
ok
> problematic to me as well.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf..org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On
> Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM
>
> To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> In this case, it is even less relevant.  The PSP for SRv6 does not remove
> the double-processing.  It merely removes the need to ignore the SRH at t=
he
> ultimate node.
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>
> > MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
>
> > engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP
>
> > lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
>
> > impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
>
> > still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
>
> > implementers should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Andy (who was there at the time)
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net
>
> > <mailto:robert@raszuk.net <robert@raszuk.net>>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >     Hi Ron,
>
> >
>
> >      >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>
> >
>
> >     Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>
> >
>
> >     MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>
> >     last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
>
> >     stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>
> >
>
> >      >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>
> >
>
> >     But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
>
> >     from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
>
> >     "penultimate" word :)
>
> >
>
> >     Kind regards,
>
> >     R.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >     On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
>
> >     <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
>
> >     <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>=
>>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >         Folks,
>
> >
>
> >         I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS
>
> >         PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the
>
> >         time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle of
>
> >         a packet. That is quite a different story.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >                Ron
>
> >
>
> >     _______________________________________________
>
> >     spring mailing list
>
> >     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>>
>
> >
>
> > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%=
2
> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2=
52>
>
> > F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> spring mailing list
>
> spring@ietf.org
>
>
> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>
>
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> _________________________________________________________________________=
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>
>
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> information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
> Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please inform u=
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> by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all copies
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--00000000000006bb9e05a007d976
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear WWB,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I think we are talking =
about the same thing ... behaviour to do or not to do PSP is embedded into =
SID. So to have two options you have to have two SIDs today advertised by I=
GP.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I am just gently suggesting that to supp=
ort both you could have algorithmic option (odd SID - PHP, even SID no PHP)=
 and need to only signal one - keeping the other one reserved per node but =
not signalled).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>R.</div></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On We=
d, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:56 PM Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com">weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Beha=
lf Of
</b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@e=
citele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ketan,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So essentially you are confirming that subject to to=
pology in worst case I need to double the flooding amount of SIDs in my net=
work to support both PSP and non PSP operation. I think if we would conside=
r PSP as optional or on-demand behaviour
 we could architect it without the need for double flooding node&#39;s SIDs=
 just to indicate in one PSP=3D0 and in the other one PSP !=3D0 (which by i=
tself is still subject to given IGP and SR code even allowing you to do tha=
t).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Robert:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In my understanding, one behavior id (16bits) is onl=
y correspond to one SID, and the 0 is reserved as defined in SRv6 NPG draft=
, PSP is flavor and is never used alone. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WWB;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<br>
R.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ke=
tant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Robert,<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Please check inline below.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 16:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Ketan,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Let&#39;s assume following scen=
ario:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T1<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">A ----=C2=A0 Z ----=C2=A0 P ---=
- T2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T3<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">A - is ingress=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">P - is potential PSP performer=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ts - are egress (from SR pov)<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Q1:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume T1 and T3 signal capabil=
ity to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for =
SID P<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">How does A can build SRH for al=
l three SR paths to do PSP only to node T2 ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">sub-Q1:=C2=A0 Is it legal today=
 to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth supported =3D N and the other w=
ith depth =3D 0 ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">[KT] The MSD support is a=
dvertised at node level. The node P can advertise say two End SID =E2=80=93=
 one with PSP and another without it. The SR Source Node picks
 up which of the two End SIDs to pick based on the capabilities of the egre=
ss nodes. Ultimately, the SR Source Node A decides and instructs P what it =
needs to do for each of the 3 paths.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Q2:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal cap=
ability to handle SRH depth =3D 4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for =
SID P<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">How can A build SRH such that P=
SP will happen only for very fat flows ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">[KT] As in the previous e=
xample, A can make a choice on a per flow basis by picking up the PSP or no=
n-PSP flavor of P=E2=80=99s SIDs.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Q3:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal cap=
ability to handle SRH depth =3D 2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume P signals PSP =3D 0<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Would A not be able to insert S=
RH and do any SR in this case ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">[KT] Yes, A cannot genera=
te a packet with SRH with 3 segments destined to the T nodes in such a case=
.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0</span></i></b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Thanks,</span></i></b><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ketan</span></i></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Many thx,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM=
 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Please check inline below.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtei=
n@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 15:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
...org</a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern=
.com</a>&gt;;
 Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Ketan,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Lots of thanks for the pointer.<span lang=3D=
"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Here is the text I have found at this refere=
nce:
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<h3 style=3D"break-before:page"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#section-4.4" target=3D"_blank"><span lan=
g=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black">4.4</span></a><a name=3D"m_68672669058773465=
67_m_-6300854329822182090_m_238690495500125"></a><span lang=3D"EN">.=C2=A0
 Maximum End D MSD Type</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></h=
3>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Maximum=
 End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH when pe=
rforming decapsulation associated with &quot;End.Dx&quot; behaviors</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 (e.g., &quo=
t;End.DX6&quot; and &quot;End.DT6&quot;) as defined in</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 [<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D=
...ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming" title=3D"&quot;SRv6 Network Progra=
mming&quot;" target=3D"_blank">I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming</a>=
]..</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH Max End=
 D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"color:black;background:yellow">If the advertised value is zero or no va=
lue is advertised</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></=
pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black;bac=
kground:yellow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 then it is assumed that the router cannot appl=
y</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black;bac=
kground:yellow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;End.DX6&quot; or &quot;End.DT6&quot; beh=
aviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an SRH.</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"=
><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">I assume that you have actually referred to =
the
<span style=3D"color:black;background:yellow">highlighted</span> text in th=
is section =E2=80=93 is this correct?<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">If this is correct then, to the best of my u=
nderstanding:<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m2=
386904955001255836msoplaintext">
The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and to perfo=
rm certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and not local betw=
een the originator and the penultimate node<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext"><b><i>[KT] This is correct.</i></b><span lan=
g=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m2=
386904955001255836msoplaintext">
It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such a reques=
t but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext"><b><i>[KT] This is not a request to the penu=
ltimate SR Endpoint Node. The source SR Node explicitly instructs the penul=
timate SR Endpoint Node when it wants it do PSP operation. A
 router which does not support PSP operation (i.e. does not advertise SIDs =
with those flavors), then the source SR Node will not be able to instruct i=
t to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Source Node decides.</i></b><span lang=3D"EN=
-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext"><b><i>=C2=A0</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext"><b><i>Thanks,</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext"><b><i>Ketan</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">My 2c,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Sasha<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Office: +972-39266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549=
266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;
<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
...com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Joel M.=
 Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@j=
oelhalpern.com</a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a=
>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<spa=
n lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Hi Sasha,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">There is the signalling from the &quot;tail-=
end node&quot; in SRv6 as well. Perhaps you missed
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%=
23section-4.4" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtm=
l%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section-4.4</span></a> ?<span =
lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Thanks,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Ketan<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">-----Original Message-----<span lang=3D"EN-I=
N"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-deco=
ration:none">spring-bounces@ietf..org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Alexander
 Vainshtein<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09<span lang=3D"EN-IN=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">To: Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jm=
h@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-d=
ecoration:none">jmh@joelhalpern.com</span></a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:wi=
ndowtext;text-decoration:none">agmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spri=
ng-srv6-network-programming<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Joel, Andy and all,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">FWIW I concur with your positions regarding =
comparison between PHP in MPLS and PSP in SRv6.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">I would also like to stress that, to the bes=
t of my understanding,=C2=A0 in MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the pe=
nultimate and ultimate nodes with the ultimate node explicitly requesting
 it and the penultimate one giving the option to agree (<a href=3D"http://i=
..e.to" target=3D"_blank">i.e.to</a> pop the top label when forwarding the =
packet) or disagree (and to swap the top label to Explicit NULL). The head-=
end node (and the rest of the nodes
 on the path) remain completely ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has be=
en introduced - and remains - truly optional.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">I have not seen any specifications that woul=
d allow the tail-end node of an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to=
 explicitly request this behavior from the penultimate one, nor
 do I see would the penultimate node that cannot support PSP do if requeste=
d to perform it.=C2=A0 The suggestions I have seen that it would be up to t=
he head-end node (that inserts the SRH) to indicate that PSP is requested -=
 on behalf of the tail-end node? -=C2=A0 look
 problematic to me as well.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">My 2c,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Regards,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Sasha<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Office: +972-39266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549=
266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecite=
le.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">-----Original Message-----<span lang=3D"EN-I=
N"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-deco=
ration:none">spring-bounces@ietf..org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Joel M.
 Halpern<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM<span =
lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">To: Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ag=
malis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-dec=
oration:none">agmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spri=
ng-srv6-network-programming<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">In this case, it is even less relevant.=C2=
=A0 The PSP for SRv6 does not remove the double-processing.=C2=A0 It merely=
 removes the need to ignore the SRH at the ultimate node.<span lang=3D"EN-I=
N"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Yours,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">Joel<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:<=
span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; MPLS PHP was invented to solve a partic=
ular issue with some forwarding
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; engines at the time - they couldn&#39;t=
 do a final pop followed by an IP
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; lookup and forward operation in a singl=
e forwarding cycle (it would
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; impact forwarding speed by 50% best cas=
e). 20 years later, is this
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; still an issue at the hardware/firmware=
 level? If so, affected
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; implementers should speak up, otherwise=
 there&#39;s really=C2=A0no need for PSP.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; Cheers,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; Andy (who was there at the time)<span l=
ang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert R=
aszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@ras=
zuk.net</a>
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">m=
ailto:robert@raszuk.net</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi Ron,<span la=
ng=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Purely looking =
at technical aspect that is not true at all.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS PHP does n=
ot remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 last label. Aft=
er MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=A0with remaining label<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stack to the eg=
ress LSR (example L3VPN PE).<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=
=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP<span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I agree wit=
h that. Both operations have very little in common<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 from packet&#39=
;s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;penultima=
te&quot; word :)<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kind regards,<s=
pan lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R.<span lang=3D=
"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Tue, Mar 3, =
2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;rbonica=3D<=
a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.=
net@dmarc.ietf.org</a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</span=
></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Folks,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MP=
LS<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the<span =
lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle of<s=
pan lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 a packet. That is quite a different story.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_6867266905877346567gmail-m-6300854329822182090gmail-m23=
86904955001255836msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:01:15 +0100
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To: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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sorry s/ odd SID - PHP, even SID no PHP/ odd SID - PSP, even SID no PSP/



On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 3:00 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Dear WWB,
>
> I think we are talking about the same thing ... behaviour to do or not to
> do PSP is embedded into SID. So to have two options you have to have two
> SIDs today advertised by IGP.
>
> I am just gently suggesting that to support both you could have
> algorithmic option (odd SID - PHP, even SID no PHP) and need to only sign=
al
> one - keeping the other one reserved per node but not signalled).
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:56 PM Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) <
> weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com> wrote:
>
>> Inline;
>>
>> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:31 PM
>> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
>> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; Alexander Vainshtein <
>> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin=
g
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Ketan,
>>
>>
>>
>> So essentially you are confirming that subject to topology in worst case
>> I need to double the flooding amount of SIDs in my network to support bo=
th
>> PSP and non PSP operation. I think if we would consider PSP as optional =
or
>> on-demand behaviour we could architect it without the need for double
>> flooding node's SIDs just to indicate in one PSP=3D0 and in the other on=
e PSP
>> !=3D0 (which by itself is still subject to given IGP and SR code even
>> allowing you to do that).
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Robert:
>>
>> In my understanding, one behavior id (16bits) is only correspond to one
>> SID, and the 0 is reserved as defined in SRv6 NPG draft, PSP is flavor a=
nd
>> is never used alone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx;
>>
>> WWB;
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx,
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <
>> ketant@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please check inline below.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 16:07
>> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
>> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
>> spring@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin=
g
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Ketan,
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's assume following scenario:
>>
>>
>>
>>                       ----- T1
>>
>>                      |
>>
>> A ----  Z ----  P ---- T2
>>
>>                     |
>>
>>                       ----- T3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A - is ingress
>>
>> P - is potential PSP performer
>>
>> Ts - are egress (from SR pov)
>>
>>
>>
>> Q1:
>>
>>
>>
>> Assume T1 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D =
2
>>
>> Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
>>
>> SRH depth required is 3
>>
>>
>>
>> How does A can build SRH for all three SR paths to do PSP only to node T=
2
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>> sub-Q1:  Is it legal today to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth
>> supported =3D N and the other with depth =3D 0 ?
>>
>> *[KT] The MSD support is advertised at node level. The node P can
>> advertise say two End SID =E2=80=93 one with PSP and another without it.=
 The SR
>> Source Node picks up which of the two End SIDs to pick based on the
>> capabilities of the egress nodes. Ultimately, the SR Source Node A decid=
es
>> and instructs P what it needs to do for each of the 3 paths.*
>>
>>
>>
>> Q2:
>>
>>
>>
>> Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 4
>>
>> Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for SID P
>>
>> SRH depth required is 3
>>
>>
>>
>> How can A build SRH such that PSP will happen only for very fat flows ?
>>
>> *[KT] As in the previous example, A can make a choice on a per flow basi=
s
>> by picking up the PSP or non-PSP flavor of P=E2=80=99s SIDs.*
>>
>>
>>
>> Q3:
>>
>>
>>
>> Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal capability to handle SRH depth =3D 2
>>
>> Assume P signals PSP =3D 0
>>
>> SRH depth required is 3
>>
>>
>>
>> Would A not be able to insert SRH and do any SR in this case ?
>>
>> *[KT] Yes, A cannot generate a packet with SRH with 3 segments destined
>> to the T nodes in such a case.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Thanks,*
>>
>> *Ketan*
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D
>> 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sasha,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please check inline below.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>> *Sent:* 04 March 2020 15:41
>> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
>> *Cc:* spring@ietf...org <spring@ietf.org>; Martin Vigoureux <
>> martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
>> Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin=
g
>>
>>
>>
>> Ketan,
>>
>> Lots of thanks for the pointer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is the text I have found at this reference:
>>
>>
>> 4.4
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#sect=
ion-4.4>.
>> Maximum End D MSD Type
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    The Maximum End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an
>>
>>    SRH when performing decapsulation associated with "End.Dx" behaviors
>>
>>    (e.g., "End.DX6" and "End.DT6") as defined in
>>
>>    [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D...ietf-spring-srv6-network=
-programming>]..
>>
>>
>>
>>    SRH Max End D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)
>>
>>
>>
>>    If the advertised value is zero or no value is advertised
>>
>>    then it is assumed that the router cannot apply
>>
>>    "End.DX6" or "End.DT6" behaviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an=
 SRH.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I assume that you have actually referred to the highlighted text in this
>> section =E2=80=93 is this correct?
>>
>>
>>
>> If this is correct then, to the best of my understanding:
>>
>>    1. The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and
>>    to perform certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and =
not
>>    local between the originator and the penultimate node
>>
>> *[KT] This is correct.*
>>
>>    1. It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such
>>    a request but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
>>
>> *[KT] This is not a request to the penultimate SR Endpoint Node. The
>> source SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimate SR Endpoint Node whe=
n
>> it wants it do PSP operation. A router which does not support PSP operat=
ion
>> (i.e. does not advertise SIDs with those flavors), then the source SR No=
de
>> will not be able to instruct it to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Source Node
>> decides.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Thanks,*
>>
>> *Ketan*
>>
>>
>>
>> My 2c,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302
>>
>> Cell:      +972-549266302
>>
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM
>> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele...com>>; Joel M. Halpern <
>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
>> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>> Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Sasha,
>>
>>
>>
>> There is the signalling from the "tail-end node" in SRv6 as well. Perhap=
s
>> you missed
>> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2=
F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23sectio=
n-4.4
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ketan
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf..org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On
>> Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
>>
>> Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09
>>
>> To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Andrew G. Malis <
>> agmalis@gmail.com>
>>
>> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>
>>
>> Joel, Andy and all,
>>
>> FWIW I concur with your positions regarding comparison between PHP in
>> MPLS and PSP in SRv6.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would also like to stress that, to the best of my understanding,  in
>> MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penultimate and ultimate nodes
>> with the ultimate node explicitly requesting it and the penultimate one
>> giving the option to agree (i.e.to <http://i..e.to> pop the top label
>> when forwarding the packet) or disagree (and to swap the top label to
>> Explicit NULL). The head-end node (and the rest of the nodes on the path=
)
>> remain completely ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has been introduc=
ed
>> - and remains - truly optional.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have not seen any specifications that would allow the tail-end node of
>> an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to explicitly request this
>> behavior from the penultimate one, nor do I see would the penultimate no=
de
>> that cannot support PSP do if requested to perform it.  The suggestions =
I
>> have seen that it would be up to the head-end node (that inserts the SRH=
)
>> to indicate that PSP is requested - on behalf of the tail-end node? -  l=
ook
>> problematic to me as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> My 2c,
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302
>>
>> Cell:      +972-549266302
>>
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf..org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On
>> Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM
>>
>> To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
>>
>> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case, it is even less relevant.  The PSP for SRv6 does not remov=
e
>> the double-processing.  It merely removes the need to ignore the SRH at =
the
>> ultimate node.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Joel
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>>
>> > MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
>>
>> > engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP
>>
>> > lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
>>
>> > impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
>>
>> > still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
>>
>> > implementers should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP=
.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Cheers,
>>
>> > Andy (who was there at the time)
>>
>> >
>>
>> > On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net
>>
>> > <mailto:robert@raszuk.net <robert@raszuk.net>>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     Hi Ron,
>>
>> >
>>
>> >      >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>>
>> >     last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
>>
>> >     stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>>
>> >
>>
>> >      >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
>>
>> >     from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
>>
>> >     "penultimate" word :)
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     Kind regards,
>>
>> >     R.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
>>
>> >     <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
>>
>> >     <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org=
>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >         Folks,
>>
>> >
>>
>> >         I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPL=
S
>>
>> >         PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the
>>
>> >         time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the middle o=
f
>>
>> >         a packet. That is quite a different story.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >                Ron
>>
>> >
>>
>> >     _______________________________________________
>>
>> >     spring mailing list
>>
>> >     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A=
%2
>> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%=
252>
>>
>> > F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> spring mailing list
>>
>> spring@ietf.org
>>
>>
>> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2=
F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
___
>>
>>
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>> Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please inform =
us
>> by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all copies
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>>
>> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3GkRJLpXrP2pY9W9t8khQDB6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2=
F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
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>> ________________________________________________________________________=
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>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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--00000000000051e53105a007db5b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">sorry s/

odd SID - PHP, even SID no PHP/

odd SID - PSP, even SID no PSP/<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 4,=
 2020 at 3:00 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">rob=
ert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear WWB,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I think w=
e are talking about the same thing ... behaviour to do or not to do PSP is =
embedded into SID. So to have two options you have to have two SIDs today a=
dvertised by IGP.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I am just gently suggestin=
g that to support both you could have algorithmic option (odd SID - PHP, ev=
en SID no PHP) and need to only signal one - keeping the other one reserved=
 per node but not signalled).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div=
>R.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:56 PM Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com" target=3D"_blank">weibin.w=
ang@nokia-sbell.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Beha=
lf Of
</b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@e=
citele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ketan,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So essentially you are confirming that subject to to=
pology in worst case I need to double the flooding amount of SIDs in my net=
work to support both PSP and non PSP operation. I think if we would conside=
r PSP as optional or on-demand behaviour
 we could architect it without the need for double flooding node&#39;s SIDs=
 just to indicate in one PSP=3D0 and in the other one PSP !=3D0 (which by i=
tself is still subject to given IGP and SR code even allowing you to do tha=
t).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Robert:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In my understanding, one behavior id (16bits) is onl=
y correspond to one SID, and the 0 is reserved as defined in SRv6 NPG draft=
, PSP is flavor and is never used alone. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WWB;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<br>
R.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ke=
tant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Robert,<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Please check inline below.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 16:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Ketan,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Let&#39;s assume following scen=
ario:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T1<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">A ----=C2=A0 Z ----=C2=A0 P ---=
- T2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- T3<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">A - is ingress=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">P - is potential PSP performer=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ts - are egress (from SR pov)<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Q1:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume T1 and T3 signal capabil=
ity to handle SRH depth =3D 4 and T2 =3D 2=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for =
SID P<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">How does A can build SRH for al=
l three SR paths to do PSP only to node T2 ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">sub-Q1:=C2=A0 Is it legal today=
 to signal by P two SIDs one with PSP depth supported =3D N and the other w=
ith depth =3D 0 ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">[KT] The MSD support is a=
dvertised at node level. The node P can advertise say two End SID =E2=80=93=
 one with PSP and another without it. The SR Source Node picks
 up which of the two End SIDs to pick based on the capabilities of the egre=
ss nodes. Ultimately, the SR Source Node A decides and instructs P what it =
needs to do for each of the 3 paths.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Q2:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal cap=
ability to handle SRH depth =3D 4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume P signals PSP =3D 5 for =
SID P<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">How can A build SRH such that P=
SP will happen only for very fat flows ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">[KT] As in the previous e=
xample, A can make a choice on a per flow basis by picking up the PSP or no=
n-PSP flavor of P=E2=80=99s SIDs.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Q3:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume T1, T2 and T3 signal cap=
ability to handle SRH depth =3D 2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Assume P signals PSP =3D 0<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">SRH depth required is 3<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Would A not be able to insert S=
RH and do any SR in this case ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">[KT] Yes, A cannot genera=
te a packet with SRH with 3 segments destined to the T nodes in such a case=
.</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0</span></i></b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Thanks,</span></i></b><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ketan</span></i></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Many thx,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:17 AM=
 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">Please check inline below.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtei=
n@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 March 2020 15:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
...org</a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern=
.com</a>&gt;;
 Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Ketan,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Lots of thanks for the pointer.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Here is the text I have found at this reference:
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<h3 style=3D"break-before:page"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#section-4.4" target=3D"_blank"><span lan=
g=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black">4.4</span></a><a name=3D"m_-8626511595520566=
106_m_6867266905877346567_m_-6300854329822182090_m_238690495500125"></a><sp=
an lang=3D"EN">.=C2=A0
 Maximum End D MSD Type</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></h=
3>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Maximum=
 End D MSD Type specifies the maximum number of SIDs in an</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH when pe=
rforming decapsulation associated with &quot;End.Dx&quot; behaviors</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 (e.g., &quo=
t;End.DX6&quot; and &quot;End.DT6&quot;) as defined in</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 [<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06#ref-I-D=
...ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming" title=3D"&quot;SRv6 Network Progra=
mming&quot;" target=3D"_blank">I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming</a>=
]..</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRH Max End=
 D Type: 45 (Suggested value - to be assigned by IANA)</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"color:black;background:yellow">If the advertised value is zero or no va=
lue is advertised</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></=
pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black;bac=
kground:yellow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 then it is assumed that the router cannot appl=
y</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:black;bac=
kground:yellow">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;End.DX6&quot; or &quot;End.DT6&quot; beh=
aviors if the outer IPv6 header contains an SRH.</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"=
><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<p><span lang=3D"EN">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p>I assume that you have actually referred to the
<span style=3D"color:black;background:yellow">highlighted</span> text in th=
is section =E2=80=93 is this correct?<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>If this is correct then, to the best of my understanding:<span lang=3D"E=
N-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li>
The request for PSP (expressed as inability to process the SRH and to perfo=
rm certain lookup by the originator of an SID) is global and not local betw=
een the originator and the penultimate node<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></li></ol>
<p><b><i>[KT] This is correct.</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li>
It is not clear what the penultimate router that has received such a reques=
t but cannot implement it is supposed to do.
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p><b><i>[KT] This is not a request to the penultimate SR Endpoint Node. Th=
e source SR Node explicitly instructs the penultimate SR Endpoint Node when=
 it wants it do PSP operation. A
 router which does not support PSP operation (i.e. does not advertise SIDs =
with those flavors), then the source SR Node will not be able to instruct i=
t to do PSP. Ultimately the SR Source Node decides.</i></b><span lang=3D"EN=
-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><i>=C2=A0</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><i>Thanks,</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><i>Ketan</i></b><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>My 2c,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Sasha<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Office: +972-39266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;
<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:49 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
...com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Joel M.=
 Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@j=
oelhalpern.com</a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a=
>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: RE: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<spa=
n lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Hi Sasha,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>There is the signalling from the &quot;tail-end node&quot; in SRv6 as we=
ll. Perhaps you missed
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%=
23section-4.4" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/3Fjd1GocprnmRnQ68mT2Nv46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtm=
l%2Fdraft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-06%23section-4.4</span></a> ?<span =
lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Thanks,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Ketan<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>-----Original Message-----<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring-bounces@=
ietf..org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Alexander
 Vainshtein<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Sent: 04 March 2020 15:09<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>To: Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">jmh@joelhalp=
ern.com</span></a>&gt;; Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:non=
e">agmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p>Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<=
span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Joel, Andy and all,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>FWIW I concur with your positions regarding comparison between PHP in MP=
LS and PSP in SRv6.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>I would also like to stress that, to the best of my understanding,=C2=A0=
 in MPLS PHP is a local behavior between the penultimate and ultimate nodes=
 with the ultimate node explicitly requesting
 it and the penultimate one giving the option to agree (<a href=3D"http://i=
..e.to" target=3D"_blank">i.e.to</a> pop the top label when forwarding the =
packet) or disagree (and to swap the top label to Explicit NULL). The head-=
end node (and the rest of the nodes
 on the path) remain completely ignorant of this behavior. I.e., PHP has be=
en introduced - and remains - truly optional.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>I have not seen any specifications that would allow the tail-end node of=
 an SRv6 path that wants to benefit from PSP to explicitly request this beh=
avior from the penultimate one, nor
 do I see would the penultimate node that cannot support PSP do if requeste=
d to perform it.=C2=A0 The suggestions I have seen that it would be up to t=
he head-end node (that inserts the SRH) to indicate that PSP is requested -=
 on behalf of the tail-end node? -=C2=A0 look
 problematic to me as well.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>My 2c,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Regards,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Sasha<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Office: +972-39266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecite=
le.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>-----Original Message-----<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring-bounces@=
ietf..org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Joel M.
 Halpern<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:09 AM<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p>To: Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">agmalis@gmail.=
com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a>; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p>Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<=
span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>In this case, it is even less relevant.=C2=A0 The PSP for SRv6 does not =
remove the double-processing.=C2=A0 It merely removes the need to ignore th=
e SRH at the ultimate node.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Yours,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>Joel<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>On 3/3/2020 6:27 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forward=
ing
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; engines at the time - they couldn&#39;t do a final pop followed by =
an IP
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; implementers should speak up, otherwise there&#39;s really=C2=A0no =
need for PSP.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; Cheers,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; Andy (who was there at the time)<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:robert@raszuk.net</spa=
n></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi Ron,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear =
case of de-encapsulation.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Purely looking at technical aspect that is =
not true at all.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS =
PHP is just used to pop<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=
=C2=A0with remaining label<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).=
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you=
 can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I agree with that. Both operations have=
 very little in common<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 from packet&#39;s standpoint or forwarding =
apect. Well maybe except<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)<span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kind regards,<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica<s=
pan lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.n=
et@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a><span =
lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:=
none">mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<span la=
ng=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Folks,<span lang=3D=
"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think t=
hat you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PHP is a clear case=
 of de-encapsulation. We do that all the<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time. In SRv6 PSP, =
we are removing something from the middle of<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a packet. That is q=
uite a different story.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span =
lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 Ron<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ___________________________________________=
____<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 spring mailing list<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:w=
indowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;te=
xt-decoration:none">mailto:spring@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span lang=3D"EN-I=
N"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H=
2?u=3Dhttps%3A%252" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2</span></a><span lang=3D=
"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>&gt; F%<a href=3D"http://2Fwww.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.ietf.or=
g</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p>&gt; <span lang=3D"EN-IN">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>_______________________________________________<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p>spring mailing list<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime=
.symantec.com/3HYxrbBRUMaCG5VTr1FEMZ96H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fm=
ailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________=
___<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains info=
rmation which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. =
If you have received this transmission
 in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the or=
iginal and all copies thereof.<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p>________________________________________________________________________=
___<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p>_______________________________________________<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p>spring mailing list<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"=
EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3GkRJLpXrP2pY9W9t8khQDB6H2?u=
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ailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-IN">_______________________________=
________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <8259d37e-b460-5f76-1ce6-b0d026bccf6b@gont.com.ar> <20143_1583250558_5E5E7C7E_20143_390_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD80E6@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5d693a5e-baa0-6ffb-4e39-2695795b7413@joelhalpern.com> <MW3PR11MB457071CFC70E5F1F9CBA3A79C1E50@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <d38e0835-22e6-cc60-b479-454bec33718f@joelhalpern.com> <MW3PR11MB4570A58DA2DBD870A5D92974C1E50@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <80c4817d-c053-a66f-67eb-3e81af2d49d5@joelhalpern.com> <MW3PR11MB45705454C47A38679B6CDF67C1E50@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <7cc38d35-0139-7958-0393-7a24d0a5b276@joelhalpern.com> <335d93d7ee624fb689b8dbcce3aa60cc@huawei.com> <d85835e7-d93a-19e3-28a0-406457ae06b9@joelhalpern.com> <600a5b357fd04bbd910aa11ff142d773@huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:06:43 -0500
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Then don't pretend that box is part of the SR Domain.  It clearly isn't.
Yours,
Joel

On 3/4/2020 8:51 AM, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> I guarantee you there is case the performance penalty is more than 90%, only if the box send the IPv6 packet with RH or EH to the slow path (just to be compatible with RFC8200)!
> And I think that's common even for not very old box.
> 
> Thanks
> Jingrong
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:39 PM
> To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> Jingrong, the only "processing" of the SRH required in the ultimate node is to ignore it.  Which is required by 8200.
> 
> Skipping the SRH is not a 50% performance penalty in any situation.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 3/4/2020 8:36 AM, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) wrote:
>> Hi Joel, Ketan,
>> Let me share my points about the statement "The SRH removal does not remove the expensive part of the work, namely the need to decapsulate and process the inner header."
>> For the ultimate segment endpoint that is well capable of processing SRH, the statement is true I think. I guess the benefits may be around 50%?
>> While for the real network, the incremental deployment may be much more important ---- It is determining, from 1(success) to 0(fail) or vice versa!
>> No matter how good a feature you provided, it just doesn't work on the network with a bunch of PEs that is not capable of SRH, then it is useless.
>>
>> **Maybe my previously suggested text can be referenced** This has some
>> very important benefits for deployment in some networks when the final
>> tunnel end point is a lower-end node which is not capable of
>> processing the SRH for reasons like the hardware is overloaded or
>> unable to upgraded to process well with SRH.
>>
>> In case the final tunnel endpoint router is fully capable of the
>> functionality of SRH and the SRv6-NP defined in this document, it is
>> recommended not to use the PSP.
>> **End for reference**
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jingrong
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
>> Halpern
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:34 PM
>> To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;
>> bruno.decraene@orange.com; spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>
>> Given that we are talking about the ultimate node, all that it is being asked to do is ignore the SRH.  Whether it ignores it because it uses the option 8200 permits to ignore things which are understood, or ignores it because SL=0, it is required to be able to ignore it.
>> In either the encapsulated case or the native termination case, the
>> result of ignoring it is that the proper things will happen.  The IP
>> header will be removed, and what is enclosed will be processed.  (In
>> the native case, the upper layer header.  In the encapsulated case,
>> the inner header.)
>>
>> So I am still confused as to what the advantage to any node is of doing more work in the preceding node, work that is much more than the act of ignoring the header in the final node.  The SRH removal does not remove the expensive part of the work, namely the need to decapsulate and process the inner header.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>>
>> On 3/4/2020 3:27 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>>> Hi Joel,
>>>
>>> I would not like to misquote Bruno, but his conclusion on this topic
>>> was very logical, practical and nuanced (again most likely comes from
>>> working with a network operator).
>>>
>>> /QOUTE/
>>>
>>> /My take is that PSP is an _optional data plane optimization_.
>>> Judging its level of usefulness is _very hardware and implementation dependent_.
>>> It may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
>>> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
>>> vendor), with possible intermediate points along _"n% packet
>>> processing gain", or "required when combined with a specific other
>>> feature"_. I don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this
>>> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on
>>> the hardwares). The fact that this has been implemented by some
>>> platforms and deployed by some operators, is, to me, an indication
>>> that it is useful for those cases. (I believe that an English proverb
>>> is *"the proof of the pudding is in the eating"*. Although I'm
>>> certainly missing part of its meaning and culture, in it's literal
>>> reading, it seems to apply)./
>>>
>>> /UNQOUTE/
>>>
>>> I don’t believe we need to get into the details of the 18 [1]
>>> publicly disclosed (I understand there are more) hardware
>>> implementations from multiple vendors to debate the gains from PSP. I
>>> don’t believe that is appropriate for an IETF mailing list or
>>> pursuant to IETF policy or practice (as you say)?
>>>
>>> Again, I like to make the point of how/why HBH processing was made
>>> optional based on real world considerations when moving from RFC2460
>>> to RFC8200. So options are good and necessary!
>>>
>>> That said, let us turn the tables around.  There is no technical
>>> reason for not allowing PSP with SRH – all the ones that have been
>>> brought up have been answered and clarified in the text as well as on the mailer.
>>> So I fail to understand the resistance of “the other side (including
>>> yourself)”.
>>>
>>> Therefore, I would suggest we go ahead with the declared Spring WG
>>> consensus.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ketan
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-s
>>> t
>>> atus-05#section-4.2
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
>>> Sent: 04 March 2020 13:26
>>> To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>;
>>> bruno.decraene@orange.com; Martin Vigoureux
>>> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>
>>> Bruno's statement, which you chose to quote, was that all it takes is
>>> for one person to find something useful.  I was responding to what
>>> the chair said.  It is not true as stated.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I agree that more than one person has asked for this.
>>>
>>> But the actual requirement is that there be a coherent and
>>> understandable explanation of why the feature adds value.  From where
>>> I sit, I have not seen such an explanation.  It is generally the
>>> unbiased chair's job to judge whether sufficient explanation has been
>>> given.  But what Bruno said was not "explanation ... seems sufficient"
>>> but rather the text you quoted.  Which is not an accurate statement
>>> of IETF policy or practice.
>>>
>>> If there is a claim that there is significant problems on the
>>> ultimate node for processing the SRH, I would like to see an
>>> explanation of how an 8200 compliant node would have such problems.
>>> In particular, unlike the MPLS case, the presence or absence of an
>>> SRH with SL=0 has no effect on the number of forwarding lookups that
>>> need to be performed.  And 8200 requires the ability to ignore a routing header with SL=0.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>>
>>> Joel
>>>
>>> On 3/4/2020 2:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>>>
>>>    > Hi Joel,
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > Surely you are exaggerating when you say "one person" asked for
>>>
>>>    > something in the context of PSP? 😊
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > Would you like to clarify?
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > And also respond on the real life and practical deployment
>>> scenarios and considerations that I've pointed out below? I doubt you
>>> meant to just dismissing them without sharing your views?
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > Thanks,
>>>
>>>    > Ketan
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>>    > From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
>>> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>>>
>>>    > Sent: 04 March 2020 13:16
>>>
>>>    > To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>>> <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>;
>>>
>>>    > bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>;
>>> Martin Vigoureux
>>>
>>>    > <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>;
>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    > Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>>
>>>    > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > If we really want to say that it takes only one person asking for
>>> something to put it in a planned RFC, then I guess we have to publish
>>> all of the competing versions of route headers for v6, since we
>>> clealry have more than 1 party asking for each variant?
>>>
>>>    > Put differently, no, putting something in because one person
>>> asked for it (even with the caeat that it appears not to break) is
>>> not how the IETF generally works.  I do not know where Bruno got that
>>> premise, but it does not match the history or written policies of the IETF.
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > Yours,
>>>
>>>    > Joel
>>>
>>>    >
>>>
>>>    > On 3/4/2020 2:43 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
>>>
>>>    >> Hi Joel,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> I would like to echo the arguments that Bruno has made (and
>>> quote
>>>
>>>    >> part of it) in his summary and then previously on this thread.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> /QOUTE/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> /The point was related to the usefulness of the optional
>>> feature,
>>>
>>>    >> which has been challenged./
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> /I was trying to say the required argumentation to declare
>>> usefulness
>>>
>>>    >> or usefulness is asymmetric, from a logical discussion stand
>>> point./
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> //
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> /a) It only requires one person to find it useful, in order to
>>> make
>>>
>>>    >> the feature useful (for that person)./
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> /b) In order to state that this is un-useful,  requires to prove
>>> that
>>>
>>>    >> this is never useful./
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> /UNQOUTE/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> It’s pure logic!
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> Please check inline below.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>>    >> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>>> <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
>>>
>>>    >> Sent: 03 March 2020 21:54
>>>
>>>    >> To: bruno.decraene@orange.com
>>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>;
>>> Martin Vigoureux
>>>
>>>    >> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com
>>> <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>;
>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>>
>>>    >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work
>>> around,
>>>
>>>    >> so I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and
>>> of
>>>
>>>    >> itself, enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */[KT] To start with, there are other/more use-cases for PSP as
>>> have
>>>
>>>    >> been discussed on the list over the course of the WGLC and before then.
>>>
>>>    >> I think you are referring to the use-case that Dan Voyer brought
>>> up
>>>
>>>    >> with legacy hardware - I don't see an issue of being practical
>>> and
>>>
>>>    >> sensitive to real world problems and scenarios. This is what
>>> results
>>>
>>>    >> in actual adoption and deployment success. We have options
>>> everywhere
>>>
>>>    >> - the EH themselves are optional … IIRC HBH options were not so
>>>
>>>    >> recently made optional out of pure consideration of the actual
>>> metal
>>>
>>>    >> out there in the Internet! /**/😊/*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for
>>> compliant
>>>
>>>    >> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has
>>> been
>>>
>>>    >> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200
>>> (not
>>>
>>>    >> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted
>>> routing
>>>
>>>    >> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take
>>> care
>>>
>>>    >> of devices which violate a standard again requires some strong
>>>
>>>    >> evidence to justify it.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */[KT] A device can be conformant with RFC8200 even if were
>>> punting
>>>
>>>    >> the packets for local s/w processing in the presence of an EH
>>> (or RH
>>>
>>>    >> in this case). In that case, it would not be doing line-rate
>>>
>>>    >> forwarding which is the requirement here. This is again a very
>>>
>>>    >> practical consideration that is rooted in real world problems
>>> and
>>>
>>>    >> deployments. /*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of
>>> the
>>>
>>>    >> value for PSP.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */[KT] There have been many use-cases and values expressed for
>>> PSP by
>>>
>>>    >> those that have implemented and deployed it. I can understand if
>>> you
>>>
>>>    >> do not appreciate them. But they are optional and it is unfair
>>> to
>>>
>>>    >> deny it to those who need it./*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual
>>>
>>>    >> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature
>>> to a
>>>
>>>    >> separate document.  Given the structure of the network
>>> programming
>>>
>>>    >> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or
>>> programming
>>>
>>>    >> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing
>>> this flavor.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */[KT] I think we can go by the track record through the
>>> progression
>>>
>>>    >> of this draft. The contentious topics related to SRH insertion
>>> were
>>>
>>>    >> removed by the authors based on WG feedback and technical
>>> arguments –
>>>
>>>    >> note this was done after it was a WG document. This WGLC has
>>> gone
>>>
>>>    >> beyond the usual timeframe and resulted in unusually large
>>> amount of
>>>
>>>    >> technical discussions. We do see that the document has undergone
>>>
>>>    >> through multiple changes to improve the text as well as fix
>>> certain
>>>
>>>    >> issues. /*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> *//*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */So by no stretch of imagination can we say that the authors
>>> have
>>>
>>>    >> been resistant to change when such a change was technically warranted.
>>>
>>>    >> I do not believe the removal of PSP makes practical and
>>> technical
>>>
>>>    >> sense for those who have implemented and deployed it with real
>>> world
>>>
>>>    >> scenarios in
>>>
>>>    >> mind./*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> *//*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */Thanks,/*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> */Ketan/*
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> Yours,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> Joel
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com
>>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>>>
>>>    >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > Fernando
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>
>>>    >> Fernando
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Gont
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
>>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>
>>> <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; 'ietf@ietf.org';
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC -
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Martin,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding
>>> Bruno's
>>>
>>>    >> claim
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> that this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary
>>>
>>>    >> skills
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> for evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this
>>> wg is
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> including in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> ---- cut here ----
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised
>>> with
>>>
>>>    >> regards
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> to the benefit of PSP.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization.
>>>
>>>    >> Judging
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> its level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed" to
>>> "required
>>>
>>>    >> for my platform"
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you
>>> are a
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> processing gain", or "required when combined with a
>>> specific
>>>
>>>    >> other
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> feature". I don't think that the SPRING WG can really
>>> evaluate
>>>
>>>    >> this
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed
>>> information
>>>
>>>    >> on the hardwares).
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> ---- cut here ----
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something
>>> that
>>>
>>>    >> it
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> cannot really understand?
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>    >> (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWp
>>>
>>>    >> n
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > AI/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load
>>> of
>>>
>>>    >> final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to
>>> evaluate,
>>>
>>>    >> e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in
>>> your
>>>
>>>    >> hardware".
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would
>>> not
>>>
>>>    >> want
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > to speak for Joel) "Do you have any comments on what appears
>>> to
>>>
>>>    >> be the
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > significant increase in complexity on the device performing PSP?
>>>
>>>    >> The
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > question I am trying to get at is about the tradeoff, which
>>> needs
>>>
>>>    >> one to evaluate both sides."
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJN
>>>
>>>    >> g
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > go/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the
>>> load
>>>
>>>    >> of final destination.".
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > Thanks,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > --Bruno
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Thanks,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Fernando
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> WG,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one
>>>
>>>    >> evaluating
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> consensus for this WG LC.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I
>>>
>>>    >> acknowledge
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> that disagreements were expressed regarding what a
>>> particular
>>>
>>>    >> piece
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> of text of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document
>>> builds to
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> propose an optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a
>>> product
>>>
>>>    >> of
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> the SPRING WG, I have paid specific attention to the
>>> messages
>>>
>>>    >> ([1],
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> [2], and [3]) sent by the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough
>>>
>>>    >> consensus
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> to move this document to the next stage.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> Martin
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> [1]
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rG
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> pcso/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> [2]
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76F
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> ZmQ0/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> [3]
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jS
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> IKBc/
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com
>>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>>>
>>>    >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Hello SPRING,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most
>>> recent
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no
>>>
>>>    >> later than December 20.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but
>>>
>>>    >> consider not
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the
>>> comments
>>>
>>>    >> which
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> are only spring specifics.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be
>>>
>>>    >> specifically
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific
>>>
>>>    >> email/thread
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> for this point.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to
>>> this
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> point and that other points get forgotten (or that the
>>> thread
>>>
>>>    >> get
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> converted into parallel independent discussions)
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> [1]
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> ing-05
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> ______________________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
>>>
>>>    >> informations
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas
>>> etre
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous
>>> avez
>>>
>>>    >> recu
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a
>>> l'expediteur et
>>>
>>>    >> le
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
>>>
>>>    >> electroniques
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Merci.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential
>>> or
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they
>>>
>>>    >> should
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify
>>> the
>>>
>>>    >> sender
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for
>>> messages
>>>
>>>    >> that
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> spring mailing list
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> spring mailing list
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>> .
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> --
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Fernando Gont
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>
>>> <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> ||
>>>
>>>    >> fgont@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>
>>> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> PGP
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076
>>> FFF1
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> spring mailing list
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>> _____________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >> _
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > ___________________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
>>>
>>>    >> informations
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
>>>
>>>    >> diffuses,
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce
>>>
>>>    >> message
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le
>>> detruire
>>>
>>>    >> ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant
>>>
>>>    >> susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite
>>> si ce
>>>
>>>    >> message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > privileged information that may be protected by law; they
>>> should
>>>
>>>    >> not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > If you have received this email in error, please notify the
>>>
>>>    >> sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
>>> that
>>>
>>>    >> have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   > Thank you.
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >>   >
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> spring mailing list
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>    >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>>    >>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>


From nobody Wed Mar  4 08:26:11 2020
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To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <C8417F71-D61E-42AC-831E-B85269D5D4A5@steffann.nl> <8297_1583155968_5E5D0B00_8297_207_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD4F8F@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <B656E21A-6E86-4A65-B260-82E0CCB29E7B@steffann.nl> <13027_1583251625_5E5E80A9_13027_228_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD81CF@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:36:17 -0300
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On 3/3/20 13:07, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
[....]
> 
> Good.
> How do you propose that we get an evaluation and formal answer from the IESG on this point?
> My proposal is to ask while asking the IESG review on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.

THat seems to late in the process.

May I ask what's the status of this I-D?  -

On one hand, both you and Martin declared consensus to move it forward. 
On another hand, the authors keep making changes to address comments 
(good) so what the wg will ship will be different from what the document 
on which you claimed consensus. Besides, the datatrackers lists the 
document as "in WGLC".

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
CC: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/VnOoNQlWqHTpmrocPL-2bXFde_Y>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Andy,

AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6 egress nodes that:


  *   Can process an SRv6  SID that appears in the IPv6 Destination Address
  *   Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0
  *   But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0 at high spee=
d

I am not aware that any such device exists. Does anybody know of one?

                                                   Ron

From: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:28 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; spring@iet=
f.org; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigo=
ureux@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding engi=
nes at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP lookup and=
 forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would impact forwarding=
 speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this still an issue at the har=
dware/firmware level? If so, affected implementers should speak up, otherwi=
se there's really no need for PSP.

Cheers,
Andy (who was there at the time)

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robe=
rt@raszuk.net>> wrote:
Hi Ron,

>   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.

Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.

MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last lab=
el. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the egres=
s LSR (example L3VPN PE).

>  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP

But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from pack=
et's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate" word :=
)

Kind regards,
R.


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ie=
tf.org<mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
Folks,

I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a cl=
ear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are =
removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a different s=
tory.

                                                                           =
                                                           Ron
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Juniper Business Use Only

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6=
 egress nodes that:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo3">Can process an SRv6 &nbsp;SID that appears in the IPv6 Destination Ad=
dress<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0i=
n;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to =
0<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;ms=
o-list:l0 level1 lfo3">But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal =
to 0 at high speed<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am not aware that any such device exists. Does any=
body know of one?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Andrew G. Malis &lt;agmalis@gmail.com&g=
t; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica@juniper.net&gt;; bruno.decraene@orange.co=
m; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern &lt;jmh@joelhalpern.com&gt;; Martin Vig=
oureux &lt;martin.vigoureux@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue wi=
th some forwarding engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop follo=
wed by an IP lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it =
would impact forwarding speed by 50%
 best case). 20 years later, is this still an issue at the hardware/firmwar=
e level? If so, affected implementers should speak up, otherwise there's re=
ally&nbsp;no need for PSP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy (who was there at the time)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ron,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-enca=
psulation.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true =
at all.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is ju=
st used to pop last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue&nbsp;with remain=
ing label stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&nbsp; I don't think that you can compare MPLS P=
HP with SRv6 PSP&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I agree with that. Both operations have very lit=
tle in common from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe exce=
pt &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">R.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonic=
a=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40jun=
iper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a cl=
ear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are =
removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a different s=
tory.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QEhtnK3a_SkTtK5jFwY7ANmF22RCkp657bAyNJfcGg1xaI_ewfH=
QHKp7NIgQ3SpI$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr=
ing</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From nobody Wed Mar  4 12:41:50 2020
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case
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I think I have now inferred what the intended use case is for PSP.  I 
really wish folks had stated it in full and explicitly, rather than 
implicitly a piece at a time, on the list.

As noted below after the explanation, I think that supporting this use 
case does require some explanations somewhere.  And given that the 
support is in terms of PSP, I guess the NP draft is the place to put the 
caveats.

As far as I can tell, the use case is as follows.
The operator has devices, that they reasonably wish to continue to use.
These devices can support encapsulation and decapsulation with 
sufficiently arbitrary content.
These devices comply with the RFC 8200 requirement for ignoring routing 
headers by punting those to the slow path.  With significant performance 
penalty.
   --  Presumably, these devices have some form of protection to prevent 
this slow-pathing from becoming a DoS on the other necessary control 
functions.  I don't think that protection is an SRv6 or NP problem.  But 
it is necessary.

Thus, the SRv6 designers want to be able to use these devices as part of 
the SRv6 domain, strictly at entry and exit.  They use PSP as a way to 
avoid hitting the slow path on decapsulate.  (Presumably because the 
check that punts the packet to the slow path is before the check that 
says "decapsulate".  And it probably should be in that order.)

In order to support this, the authors have also pretended that maximum 
SID depth is meaningful for a thing that is not a stack, and that 0 
means "no SRH permitted".  While an interesting stretch on the routing 
protocol semantics, it is not SPRING's problem.

The fact that these nodes can not be SRv6 end nodes other than as 
terminal nodes with a prior node that advertised PSP SID(s) and where 
those PSP SIDs are used on any path that terminates at these end nodes 
is important.  It probably should be called out.  It would have helped a 
number of the examples that were discussed on the list.

There is another implication that needs to be stated explicitly.  And I 
do not know how the necessary property can be indicated.  These nodes 
MUST NOT be transit nodes in an SRv6 path.

Having parsed the use case, I would note that the topological 
constraints are pretty severe.  the operator must ensure that there are 
PSP processing nodes sufficiently close to these edge nodes that they do 
not destroy the traffic engineering properties in order to achieve the 
ingress / egress utilization.

If all of this had been stated explicitly, I think we could have had a 
clear discussion of teh costs and benefits.

Yours,
Joel


From nobody Wed Mar  4 12:47:52 2020
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
References: <39544C17-1AD0-412E-A8BD-E17376537FCF@cisco.com> <bf9d68e6-cbae-2b19-11e0-1e452f0bf654@gmail.com> <FD806998-8218-4C70-B383-332C5F934A73@cisco.com> <176e9bbf-41c8-8e8a-f26e-e0de5d89735f@gmail.com> <23291_1583246906_5E5E6E3A_23291_112_19_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD7F0D@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E6BE5ABD-FEE7-4814-A2E2-9CF7C343F40D@cisco.com> <488b1a44-a4b2-39ff-171d-32fafb37df56@gmail.com> <1BD39B2D-0EE1-424B-9645-69B634B0E442@cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d07d3cbc-2e91-f40b-f9f7-70e48d1db04e@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:47:32 +1300
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Subject: Re: [spring] PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
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Hi,

I think this version makes the issue very clear (and orthogonal to the
question whether RFC8200 says what it was intended to say).

May I humbly suggest a *new* WGLC on this version?

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 05-Mar-20 01:25, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Brian, Bruno,
>=20
> I have just made this change to the draft.
> This is the only change for revision 12.
>=20
> Many thanks,
> Pablo.
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 22:17
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "bruno.decraene@=
orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>=
, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
>=20
>     Right, let's get the text clarified. Whether or not the IETF (not j=
ust these two WGs, which plainly cannot agree) accepts or refuses this in=
terpretation of RFC 8200 is a separate question.
>    =20
>     Regards
>        Brian
>    =20
>     On 04-Mar-20 09:37, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>     > Brian, Bruno,
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > Many thanks for your comments.
>     >=20
>     > Based on the feedback I would propose to add Brian's proposed tex=
t as is into the draft.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > 4.16.1.  PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    SR Segment Endpoint Nodes advertise the SIDs instantiated on t=
hem via
>     >=20
>     >    control plane protocols as described in Section 8.  Different
>     >=20
>     >    behavior ids are allocated for flavored and unflavored SIDs [T=
able 4]
>     >=20
>     >    such that an SR Source Node can identify PSP-flavored SIDs as =
such.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    The PSP flavor is specifically used by the Source SR Node when=
 it
>     >=20
>     >    needs to instruct the penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node lis=
ted in
>     >=20
>     >    the SRH to remove the SRH from the IPv6 header.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the
>     >=20
>     >    Destination Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its SID
>     >=20
>     >    address.  A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is one that, =
as part
>     >=20
>     >    of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH into t=
he IPv6
>     >=20
>     >    Destination Address and decrements Segments Left value from on=
e to
>     >=20
>     >    zero.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    The PSP operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Segment=

>     >=20
>     >    Endpoint Node and does not happen at any Transit Node.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    The SRH processing of the End, End.X and End.T behaviors are
>     >=20
>     >    modified: after the instruction "S14.  Update IPv6 DA with Seg=
ment
>     >=20
>     >    List[Segments Left]" is executed, the following instructions m=
ust be
>     >=20
>     >    executed as well:
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > S14.1.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>     >=20
>     > S14.2.      Update the Next Header field in the preceding header =
to the
>     >=20
>     >                 Next Header value of the SRH
>     >=20
>     > S14.3.      Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ex=
t Len
>     >=20
>     >                 value of the SRH
>     >=20
>     > S14.4.      Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain
>     >=20
>     > S14.5.   }
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    The usage of PSP does not increase the MTU of the IPv6 packet =
and
>     >=20
>     >    hence does not have any impact on the PMTU discovery mechanism=
=2E
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >    As a reminder, [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header] defines =
in
>     >=20
>     >    section 5 the SR Deployment Model within the SR Domain [RFC840=
2].
>     >=20
>     >    Within this framework, the Authentication Header (AH) is not u=
sed to
>     >=20
>     >    secure the SRH as described in Section 7.5 of
>     >=20
>     >    [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header].
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > *<NEW>*
>     >=20
>     > *This behavior does not contravene section 4 of [RFC8200]*
>     >=20
>     > *because the current destination address of the incoming packet*
>     >=20
>     > *is the address of the node executing the PSP behavior.*
>     >=20
>     > *</NEW>*
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > Additionally, please find some replies inline to the comments fro=
m Bruno [PC2].
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > Thanks,
>     >=20
>     > Pablo.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     >=20
>     > From: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>     >=20
>     > Date: Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 15:49
>     >=20
>     > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, Brian E Ca=
rpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>     >=20
>     > Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>=
, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
>     >=20
>     > Subject: RE: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >     Pablo,
>     >=20
>     >    =20
>     >=20
>     >     My reading is that Brian is asking for a clarification of the=
 text, not a change in the behavior.
>     >=20
>     >     In general, I think that clarification is good and that Brian=
's request is reasonable.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     Related to Brian's comment, but on top of them, I have furthe=
r points on this section 4.16.1:
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     1)
>     >=20
>     >     " S14.1.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {"
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     Although I agree that reading the whole pseudo code (split ac=
ross the whole document) is self-descriptive, there is the opportunity fo=
r people to misread and confuse "Segment Left in the received packet" wit=
h "Updated Segment Left". I'd like to avoid misunderstanding similar to t=
he ones in RFC 8200. Could you propose something? E.g.  :s/ Segments Left=
/ Updated Segments Left.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > PC2: In previous versions of this document we used the term =E2=80=
=9Cupdated SL=E2=80=9D. As part of the WGLC we changed this text in Decem=
ber to =E2=80=9CSegments Left=E2=80=9D since it is the name of the field =
defined in the SRH. While I do find the =E2=80=9CUpdated Segments Left=E2=
=80=9D easier to understand, the working group feedback wasn=E2=80=99t th=
e same in December. Hence I would tend to keep it as is. But no strong pr=
eference on my side really.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >     2)
>     >=20
>     >     As a possible change to try to address Brian's comment
>     >=20
>     >     OLD:
>     >=20
>     >        The PSP operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Seg=
ment
>     >=20
>     >        Endpoint Node and does not happen at any Transit Node.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     NEW:
>     >=20
>     >        The PSP operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Seg=
ment
>     >=20
>     >        Endpoint Node (where Segment Left =3D=3D 1) and does not h=
appen at any Transit Node.
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > PC2: Given the new text added, and given that we already have thi=
s, do we need it?
>     >=20
>     > *A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node*is one that, as part
>     >=20
>     >    of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH into t=
he IPv6
>     >=20
>     >    Destination Address and *decrements Segments Left value from o=
ne to*
>     >=20
>     > *   zero.*
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >     More inline
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bria=
n E Carpenter
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > On 03-Mar-20 09:02, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>     >=20
>     >     > > Brian,
>     >=20
>     >     > >
>     >=20
>     >     > > The PSP pseudocode is presented as a modification to the =
End pseudocode starting at line S14 of such.
>     >=20
>     >     > > Please go through the PSP pseudocode in conjunction with =
the End pseudocode (Section 4.1).
>     >=20
>     >     > > You will see that the ingress state of the packet is (Seg=
ments Left =3D=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D the PSP node's address=
).
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > Exactly my point. With SL =3D=3D 1, you are not at the ulti=
mate destination, so according to what I'll call "Fernando's reading" of =
RFC8200, you are not entitled to delete the header. That is the point tha=
t IMHO needs to be stated explicitly in the draft. You are using "Darren'=
s reading" of RFC8200.
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > I really think you need to say so explicitly. Something lik=
e:
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > Note: this behavior does not contravene section 4 of [RFC82=
00]
>     >=20
>     >     > because the current destination address of the incoming pac=
ket
>     >=20
>     >     > is the address of the node executing the PSP behavior.
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > This will not change the argument, but it will make the iss=
ue clear so that we (the IETF) can decide whether to accept it or not. An=
d that is orthogonal to whether RFC 8200 is wrong.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     3)
>     >=20
>     >     Given that there is even heated discussions on the text/wordi=
ng in RFC8200, I'm afraid that whatever text be inserted in draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming would trigger controversy and that in the e=
nd be asked to be removed.
>     >=20
>     >     However, I'm also in favor of making the issue clear.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     Brian, I would personally prefer to stick as close as possibl=
e to the text from RFC 8200, plus that we make clear that we are not chan=
ging it but only referring to. So I would propose something along the fol=
lowing:
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >                 As indicated in RFC 8200 section 4, extension hea=
ders [...] are not [to be]
>     >=20
>     >                    processed, inserted, or deleted by any node al=
ong a packet's delivery
>     >=20
>     >                    path, until the packet reaches the node [...] =
identified in the Destination Address field
>     >=20
>     >                    of the IPv6 header.
>     >=20
>     >      =20
>     >=20
>     >                 The PSP behavior defined in this section specifie=
s that, the node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 =
header (as restricted by RFC 8200 section 4), when Segment Left is receiv=
ed as 1 and when specifically instructed by the source node, removes the =
SRH header.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >    =20
>     >=20
>     >     As a reminder, the text from RFC 8200 is
>     >=20
>     >     "   Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options head=
er) are not
>     >=20
>     >        processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet=
's delivery
>     >=20
>     >        path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the se=
t of nodes,
>     >=20
>     >        in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Ad=
dress field
>     >=20
>     >        of the IPv6 header."
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     I believe that my proposed edits are clearly indicated by "[]=
" and helps the reader to focus on the relevant text. However, I'm also f=
ine with copy pasting the text verbatim from RFC 8200.
>     >=20
>     >       =20
>     >=20
>     >     4) There is an interesting comment on the 6MAN WG https://mai=
larchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/AJzOX97mUeHjEcDSIgpqUw8gNk0/
>     >=20
>     >     Although not sent in the SPRING WG, and not mentioning to thi=
s document, I think that I should be taken into account.
>     >=20
>     >     More specifically
>     >=20
>     >     " IMHO, any specification breaking AH (e.g., by modifying the=
 NextHeader in transport mode) should clearly note that it 'breaks AH' or=
 constraints its use; but, this is still acceptable for an IETF standard =
specification IMHO to 'break AH'."
>     >=20
>     >    =20
>     >=20
>     >     I'd propose:
>     >=20
>     >     OLD:
>     >=20
>     >        As a reminder, [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header] defi=
nes in
>     >=20
>     >        section 5 the SR Deployment Model within the SR Domain [RF=
C8402].
>     >=20
>     >        Within this framework, the Authentication Header (AH) is n=
ot used to
>     >=20
>     >        secure the SRH as described in Section 7.5 of
>     >=20
>     >        [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header].
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     NEW:
>     >=20
>     >     Removing the SRH requires modifying the Next Header field whi=
ch is defined as Immutable by RFC 4302.  As indicated in [I-D.ietf-6man-s=
egment-routing-header], the use of RH with AH by an SR source node, and p=
rocessing at a SR
>     >=20
>     >        segment endpoint node is not defined in this document.  Fu=
ture documents may define use of SRH with AH and its processing. Such fut=
ure document needs to take into account that the use of PSP requires the =
Next Header field to not be Immutable.
>=20
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     > PC2: Given the following text from RFC4301, and the quote above f=
rom the SRH, do we really need this?
>     >=20
>     >    IPsec implementations MUST support ESP and MAY
>     >=20
>     >    support AH. (Support for AH has been downgraded to MAY because=

>     >=20
>     >    experience has shown that there are very few contexts in which=
 ESP
>     >=20
>     >    cannot provide the requisite security services.  Note that ESP=
 can be
>     >=20
>     >    used to provide only integrity, without confidentiality, makin=
g it
>     >=20
>     >    comparable to AH in most contexts.)
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     > =20
>     >=20
>     >     Or whatever text indicating the issue.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     Regards,
>     >=20
>     >     --Bruno
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > Regards
>     >=20
>     >         > Brian
>     >=20
>     >     > >
>     >=20
>     >     > > Many thanks,
>     >=20
>     >     > > Pablo.
>     >=20
>     >     > >
>     >=20
>     >     > > -----Original Message-----
>     >=20
>     >     > > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian E C=
arpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>     >=20
>     >     > > Date: Monday, 2 March 2020 at 20:34
>     >=20
>     >     > > To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
>     >=20
>     >     > > Subject: Re: PSP and a logical application of RFC8200
>     >=20
>     >     > >
>     >=20
>     >     > >     Darren,
>     >=20
>     >     > >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     Regardless of whether you accept Fernando's comment a=
bout the intention of RFC 8200, there is also the fact that the descripti=
on of the PSP flavor cheats by considering the packet to have
>     >=20
>     >     > >      (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D=
 the PSP node's address).
>     >=20
>     >     > >     In fact that is *never* the state of the packet on th=
e wire, which is either
>     >=20
>     >     > >      (Segments Left =3D=3D 1 and Destination Address =3D=3D=
 the PSP node's address)
>     >=20
>     >     > >     or
>     >=20
>     >     > >      (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 and Destination Address =3D=3D=
 the final node's address)
>     >=20
>     >     > >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     OK, maybe it's not cheating, maybe it's only a side e=
ffect of the pseudocode, but the fact is that the test "S14.1.   If (Segm=
ents Left =3D=3D 0) {" in section 4.16.1 is very confusing because it's a=
pplied to a packet that is half way through processing of the routing hea=
der (Segments Left has been updated, but Destination Address has not been=
 updated). This makes it very unclear how the spec is claiming to interpr=
et RFC 8200.
>     >=20
>     >     > >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     Regards
>     >=20
>     >     > >        Brian Carpenter
>     >=20
>     >     > >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     On 03-Mar-20 03:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > What follows has been made clear on the list for a =
while,
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > I am re-stating it.
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > The draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming PSP =
behavior
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >=20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >      RFC8200 section 4 says:
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >=20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >      Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop O=
ptions header) are not
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >      *processed, inserted, or deleted* by any node =
along a packet's delivery
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >      path, until the packet reaches *the node* (or =
each of the set of nodes,
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >      in the case of multicast) *identified in the D=
estination Address field*
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >     * of the IPv6 header.*
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > The processing, insertion and deletion restrictions=
 only apply
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > =E2=80=9Cuntil the packet reaches the node identifi=
ed in the Destination
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > Address field of the IPv6 header=E2=80=9D.
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >=20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > At the penuptimate segment of the segment list, the=
 endpoint IS
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > =E2=80=9Cthe node identified in the Destination Add=
ress field of the IPv6
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > header=E2=80=9D and hence the PSP operation program=
med by the source SR
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > node strictly follows the letter of RFC 8200.
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > Thanks,
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >   Darren
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > ---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > ipv6@ietf.org
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/ipv6
>     >=20
>     >     > >     > ---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------
>     >=20
>     >     > >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >     -----------------------------------------------------=
---------------
>     >=20
>     >     > >     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     >=20
>     >     > >     ipv6@ietf.org
>     >=20
>     >     > >     Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/ipv6
>     >=20
>     >     > >     -----------------------------------------------------=
---------------
>     >=20
>     >     > >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     > >
>     >=20
>     >     >
>     >=20
>     >     > -----------------------------------------------------------=
---------
>     >=20
>     >     > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     >=20
>     >     > ipv6@ietf.org
>     >=20
>     >     > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/ipv6
>     >=20
>     >     > -----------------------------------------------------------=
---------
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     _____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>     >=20
>     >     pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>     >=20
>     >     a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>     >=20
>     >     Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete alter=
e, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
>     >=20
>     >     This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>     >=20
>     >     they should not be distributed, used or copied without author=
isation.
>     >=20
>     >     If you have received this email in error, please notify the s=
ender and delete this message and its attachments.
>     >=20
>     >     As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages t=
hat have been modified, changed or falsified.
>     >=20
>     >     Thank you.
>     >=20
>     >   =20
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>     >=20
>    =20
>    =20
>=20


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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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WG,

I wanted to bring more context to my decision.

This document has received a lot of valuable reviews and comments which 
improved it. That served me as a base to determine consensus on the 
overall document.

The point I'd like to insist on is the one I was mentioning in my 
previous e-mail. In my view, the remaining prominent discussion (and 
tension) point was about the text of 8200, its implications on the 
optional PSP capability, and the ramifications of it.
I have determined there is rough consensus, in SPRING, on the way to 
read the specific text of 8200, but also that certain aspects go beyond 
SPRING and would benefit from being discussed with a wider community.


I'd like to remind that this was a WG Chair level decision. Indeed, 
Bruno still needs to produce the shepherd write-up and submit the 
document for publication.

Martin

Le 2020-03-02  19:53, Martin Vigoureux a crit:
> WG,
> 
> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating 
> consensus for this WG LC.
> 
> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that 
> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text 
> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an 
> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I 
> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by 
> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> 
> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to 
> move this document to the next stage.
> 
> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
> 
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
> [2] 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
> [3] 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
> 
> Le 2019-12-05  18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a crit:
>> Hello SPRING,
>>
>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on 
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>
>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, 
>> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
>>
>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not 
>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are 
>> only spring specifics.
>>
>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically 
>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread 
>> for this point.
>>
>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point 
>> and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted 
>> into parallel independent discussions)
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
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>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, 
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>>
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>>
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <8259d37e-b460-5f76-1ce6-b0d026bccf6b@gont.com.ar> <20143_1583250558_5E5E7C7E_20143_390_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD80E6@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5d693a5e-baa0-6ffb-4e39-2695795b7413@joelhalpern.com> <7501_1583255845_5E5E9125_7501_499_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD84FF@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <fc5bf8d9-073f-2eff-6041-e1610bf6e116@joelhalpern.com> <DM6PR05MB63484795948C4901C9B7A548AEE40@DM6PR05MB6348.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAOj+MMGE+j7_QnFn-8ZQcU3BKLGEPaXj6hfppxG7-7iFkT3R1g@mail.gmail.com> <CAA=duU3fXaQY--XufYo+CuCnJsTd+bXH2uBbjUUHVJg6tLpzng@mail.gmail.com> <DM6PR05MB63489FBEF2D0FBAB1322E4B2AEE50@DM6PR05MB6348.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <90D3C257-F254-4C04-9B62-039DC7A7300D@cisco.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 16:25:35 -0500
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Darren, could you please comment on the behavioral / deployment 
implications I believe I identified in my recent email about the use 
case?  It does seem to me that something needs to be said about the 
implications of the use case.  Yes, we do sometimes make allowances in 
protocol design for deficient but complaint implementations.  But we do 
not pretend that there are not issues when doing so.  And we try to 
identify the needs clearly.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/4/2020 4:21 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> Hi Ron
> 
> I don’t think you are really asking equipment vendors to provide that 
> information on this list.  That will not happen.
> 
> I’ll simply repeat what has been stated by others on this list.
> Products with limited ability to receive and process a packet containing 
> a RH when SL==0 exist.
> PSP provides a means of allowing those products to be used as a PE.
> 
> Thanks
>    Darren
> 
>> On Mar 4, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Ron Bonica 
>> <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org 
>> <mailto:rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Andy,
>> AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6 egress nodes that:
>>
>>   * Can process an SRv6  SID that appears in the IPv6 Destination Address
>>   * Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0
>>   * But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0 at high speed
>>
>> I am not aware that any such device exists. Does anybody know of one?
>>                                                    Ron
>> *From:*Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com <mailto:agmalis@gmail.com>>
>> *Sent:*Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:28 PM
>> *To:*Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
>> *Cc:*Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net 
>> <mailto:rbonica@juniper.net>>;bruno.decraene@orange.com 
>> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>;spring@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
>> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>; Martin Vigoureux 
>> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>> MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding 
>> engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP 
>> lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would 
>> impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this 
>> still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected 
>> implementers should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP.
>> Cheers,
>> Andy (who was there at the time)
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net 
>> <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Ron,
>>     >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
>>     Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
>>     MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
>>     last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
>>     stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
>>     >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
>>     But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
>>     from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
>>     "penultimate" word :)
>>     Kind regards,
>>     R.
>>     On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
>>     <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
>>     <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>
>>         Folks,
>>
>>         I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP.
>>         MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all
>>         the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the
>>         middle of a packet. That is quite a different story.
>>
>>                                                                      
>>                                                                      
>>                   Ron
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     spring mailing list
>>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QEhtnK3a_SkTtK5jFwY7ANmF22RCkp657bAyNJfcGg1xaI_ewfHQHKp7NIgQ3SpI$>
>>     Juniper Business Use Only
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/unm9vPc9S9_VM9qBJJPFw2ja6Wo>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Darren,

I didn't expect you to provide a model number. Just an indication that such=
 hardware exists.

>From your response, I assume that some vendors offer such hardware.

                                                  Ron




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:22 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>;=
 bruno.decraene@orange.com; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpe=
rn.com>; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Hi Ron

I don't think you are really asking equipment vendors to provide that infor=
mation on this list.  That will not happen.

I'll simply repeat what has been stated by others on this list.
Products with limited ability to receive and process a packet containing a =
RH when SL=3D=3D0 exist.
PSP provides a means of allowing those products to be used as a PE.

Thanks
  Darren

On Mar 4, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.=
org<mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:

Andy,

AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6 egress nodes that:


  *   Can process an SRv6  SID that appears in the IPv6 Destination Address
  *   Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0
  *   But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0 at high spee=
d

I am not aware that any such device exists. Does anybody know of one?

                                                   Ron

From: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com<mailto:agmalis@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:28 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net<mailto:rbonica@juniper.net>>; bruno.dec=
raene@orange.com<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>; spring@ietf.org<mailto:=
spring@ietf.org>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com<mailto:jmh@joelhalpe=
rn.com>>; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com<mailto:martin.vigour=
eux@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding engi=
nes at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP lookup and=
 forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would impact forwarding=
 speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this still an issue at the har=
dware/firmware level? If so, affected implementers should speak up, otherwi=
se there's really no need for PSP.

Cheers,
Andy (who was there at the time)

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robe=
rt@raszuk.net>> wrote:
Hi Ron,

>   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.

Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.

MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop last lab=
el. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label stack to the egres=
s LSR (example L3VPN PE).

>  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP

But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common from pack=
et's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except "penultimate" word :=
)

Kind regards,
R.


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ie=
tf.org<mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
Folks,

I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a cl=
ear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are =
removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a different s=
tory.

                                                                           =
                                                           Ron
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Darren,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn&#8217;t expect you to provide a model number.=
 Just an indication that such hardware exists.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From your response, I assume that some vendors offer=
 such hardware.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;ddukes=3D40ci=
sco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Andrew G. Malis &lt;agmalis@gmail.com&gt;; Robert Raszuk &lt;rob=
ert@raszuk.net&gt;; bruno.decraene@orange.com; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Hal=
pern &lt;jmh@joelhalpern.com&gt;; Martin Vigoureux &lt;martin.vigoureux@nok=
ia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ron <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t think you are really asking equipment =
vendors to provide that information on this list. &nbsp;That will not happe=
n.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;ll simply repeat what has been stated by oth=
ers on this list.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Products with limited ability to receive and process=
 a packet containing a RH when SL=3D=3D0 exist.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PSP provides a means of allowing those products to b=
e used as a PE.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Darren<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mar 4, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@=
dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6=
 egress nodes that:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
Can process an SRv6 &nbsp;SID that appears in the IPv6 Destination Address<=
o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margi=
n-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0<o:p></o:p></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bott=
om:.0001pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0 at high speed<o:p>=
</o:p></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am not aware that any such device exists. Does any=
body know of one?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">agmalis@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<span class=3D"apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, Mar=
ch 3, 2020 6:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Robert Raszuk =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net"><span style=3D"color:purple">rober=
t@raszuk.net</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ron Bonica &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net"><span style=3D"color:purple">rbonic=
a@juniper.net</span></a>&gt;;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span><a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">bruno.decraene@orange.com</span></a>;<span class=3D"apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">spring@ietf.org</span></a>;
 Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">jmh@joelhalpern.com</span></a>&gt;; Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">mart=
in.vigoureux@nokia.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [spri=
ng] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue wi=
th some forwarding engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop follo=
wed by an IP lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it =
would impact forwarding speed by 50%
 best case). 20 years later, is this still an issue at the hardware/firmwar=
e level? If so, affected implementers should speak up, otherwise there's re=
ally&nbsp;no need for PSP.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy (who was there at the time)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net"><span style=3D"color:purple">robert@raszu=
k.net</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ron,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-enca=
psulation.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true =
at all.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is ju=
st used to pop last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue&nbsp;with remain=
ing label stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&nbsp; I don't think that you can compare MPLS P=
HP with SRv6 PSP&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I agree with that. Both operations have very lit=
tle in common from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe exce=
pt &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">R.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica &lt;rbonic=
a=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<br>
<br>
I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP. MPLS PHP is a cl=
ear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are =
removing something from the middle of a packet. That is quite a different s=
tory.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">spring@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QEhtnK3a_SkTtK5jFwY7ANmF22RCkp657bAyNJfcGg1xaI_ewfH=
QHKp7NIgQ3SpI$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:7.0pt">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;ma=
rgin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;CourierNewPSMT&quot;,serif=
">_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;CourierNewPSMT&quot;,serif;color:purple">spring@ietf.org</s=
pan></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;CourierNewPSMT&quo=
t;,serif"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!UlrPKrKo1HKqgZx1MRR_utOnAfXfgi2lBMzVNQclE2S6=
5bmsVBp7hJ7TRf5TdcXL$"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rierNewPSMT&quot;,serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/spring</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:01:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case
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In-Reply-To: <82CDEB1D-29D0-4353-AFF8-E46389F7080A@liquidtelecom.com>
From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:04:21 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MMG6QiWtT8D4+iyfDs1zx5CkB6McQz-NHHz8uEKWpNy+RQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/RMaDTL29mVeIqBKCrCRToWP3y8k>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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> When a vendor is pushing me to implement a technology

Last time I checked SRv6 is not enabled by default by any code base. What
type of "vendor push" are you referring to ? Maybe you can share which
vendor is pushing you with such strong push that you can not resist ?

Thx,
R.


On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 10:58 PM Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> I have to second the below from an operator perspective.
>
>
>
> When a vendor is pushing me to implement a technology =E2=80=93 yet not d=
isclosing
> that implementing it could result in serious network degradation dependen=
t
> on the boxes I have in the network and their positioning =E2=80=93 that e=
xposes me
> as an operator to a position of either roll back =E2=80=93 or forced upgr=
ades and
> potentially significant cost.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" <
> jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, 5 March 2020 at 00:25
> *To: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <
> martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Darren, could you please comment on the behavioral / deployment
> implications I believe I identified in my recent email about the use
> case? It does seem to me that something needs to be said about the
> implications of the use case. Yes, we do sometimes make allowances in
> protocol design for deficient but complaint implementations. But we do
> not pretend that there are not issues when doing so. And we try to
> identify the needs clearly.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 3/4/2020 4:21 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> > Hi Ron
> >
> > I don=E2=80=99t think you are really asking equipment vendors to provid=
e that
> > information on this list.  That will not happen.
> >
> > I=E2=80=99ll simply repeat what has been stated by others on this list.
> > Products with limited ability to receive and process a packet containin=
g
> > a RH when SL=3D=3D0 exist.
> > PSP provides a means of allowing those products to be used as a PE.
> >
> > Thanks
> >   Darren
> >
> >> On Mar 4, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Ron Bonica
> >> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
> >> <mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Andy,
> >> AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6 egress nodes that=
:
> >>
> >> * Can process an SRv6  SID that appears in the IPv6 Destination Addres=
s
> >> * Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0
> >> * But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0 at high spe=
ed
> >>
> >> I am not aware that any such device exists. Does anybody know of one?
> >>                                                    Ron
> >> *From:*Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com <mailto:agmalis@gmail.com>>
> >> *Sent:*Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:28 PM
> >> *To:*Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
> >> *Cc:*Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net
> >> <mailto:rbonica@juniper.net>>;bruno.decraene@orange.com
> >> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>;spring@ietf.org
> >> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> >> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>; Martin Vigoureux
> >> <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com <mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>>
> >> *Subject:*Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng
> >> MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwarding
> >> engines at the time - they couldn't do a final pop followed by an IP
> >> lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it would
> >> impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this
> >> still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected
> >> implementers should speak up, otherwise there's really no need for PSP=
.
> >> Cheers,
> >> Andy (who was there at the time)
> >> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net
> >> <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Ron,
> >> >   MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.
> >> Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.
> >> MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop
> >> last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue with remaining label
> >> stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).
> >> >  I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP
> >> But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common
> >> from packet's standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe except
> >> "penultimate" word :)
> >> Kind regards,
> >> R.
> >> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica
> >> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org
> >> <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Folks,
> >>
> >> I don't think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP.
> >> MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all
> >> the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the
> >> middle of a packet. That is quite a different story.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>           Ron
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> spring mailing list
> >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__=
;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QEhtnK3a_SkTtK5jFwY7ANmF22RCkp657bAyNJfcGg1xaI_ewfHQHKp7NIgQ=
3SpI$
> >
> >> Juniper Business Use Only
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> spring mailing list
> >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>&gt; When a vendor is pushing me to impleme=
nt a technology=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><div><br></div><div>Last time I checked SRv6=
 is not enabled by default by any code base. What type of &quot;vendor push=
&quot; are you referring to ? Maybe you can share which vendor is pushing y=
ou with such strong push that you can not resist ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Thx,<br>R.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 10:58 PM Andre=
w Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alst=
on@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-KE">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_4503892933485899468WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have to second the below from=
 an operator perspective.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When a vendor is pushing me to =
implement a technology =E2=80=93 yet not disclosing that implementing it co=
uld result in serious network degradation dependent on the boxes I have in =
the network
 and their positioning =E2=80=93 that exposes me as an operator to a positi=
on of either roll back =E2=80=93 or forced upgrades and potentially signifi=
cant cost.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Joel M. Halpern&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@=
joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 5 March 2020 at 00:25<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Darren Dukes (ddukes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.v=
igoureux@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Darren, could you please comment on the behavioral /=
 deployment
<br>
implications I believe I identified in my recent email about the use <br>
case? It does seem to me that something needs to be said about the <br>
implications of the use case. Yes, we do sometimes make allowances in <br>
protocol design for deficient but complaint implementations. But we do <br>
not pretend that there are not issues when doing so. And we try to <br>
identify the needs clearly.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
On 3/4/2020 4:21 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Ron<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I don=E2=80=99t think you are really asking equipment vendors to provi=
de that <br>
&gt; information on this list.=C2=A0 That will not happen.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I=E2=80=99ll simply repeat what has been stated by others on this list=
.<br>
&gt; Products with limited ability to receive and process a packet containi=
ng <br>
&gt; a RH when SL=3D=3D0 exist.<br>
&gt; PSP provides a means of allowing those products to be used as a PE.<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Ron Bonica <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica" target=3D"_blank">rbonica</a=
>=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40jun=
iper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Andy,<br>
&gt;&gt; AFAIKS, the only use case PSP is to accommodate SRv6 egress nodes =
that:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * Can process an SRv6 =C2=A0SID that appears in the IPv6 Destinati=
on Address<br>
&gt;&gt; * Can process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0<br>
&gt;&gt; * But cannot process the SRH with Segments Left equal to 0 at high=
 speed<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I am not aware that any such device exists. Does anybody know of o=
ne?<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Ron<br>
&gt;&gt; *From:*Andrew G. Malis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:agmalis@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">agmalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *Sent:*Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:28 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; *To:*Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszu=
k.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *Cc:*Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net" target=
=3D"_blank">rbonica@juniper.net</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank=
">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"=
_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sp=
ring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Joel M. Halpern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalper=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank=
">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Martin Vigoureux <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank=
">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:martin.vigour=
eux@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *Subject:*Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr=
amming<br>
&gt;&gt; MPLS PHP was invented to solve a particular issue with some forwar=
ding <br>
&gt;&gt; engines at the time - they couldn&#39;t do a final pop followed by=
 an IP <br>
&gt;&gt; lookup and forward operation in a single forwarding cycle (it woul=
d <br>
&gt;&gt; impact forwarding speed by 50% best case). 20 years later, is this=
 <br>
&gt;&gt; still an issue at the hardware/firmware level? If so, affected <br=
>
&gt;&gt; implementers should speak up, otherwise there&#39;s really=C2=A0no=
 need for PSP.<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Andy (who was there at the time)<br>
&gt;&gt; On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Ron,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation.<br>
&gt;&gt; Purely looking at technical aspect that is not true at all.<br>
&gt;&gt; MPLS PHP does not remove label stack. MPLS PHP is just used to pop=
<br>
&gt;&gt; last label. After MPLS PHP packets continue=C2=A0with remaining la=
bel<br>
&gt;&gt; stack to the egress LSR (example L3VPN PE).<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SR=
v6 PSP<br>
&gt;&gt; But I agree with that. Both operations have very little in common<=
br>
&gt;&gt; from packet&#39;s standpoint or forwarding apect. Well maybe excep=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;penultimate&quot; word :)<br>
&gt;&gt; Kind regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; R.<br>
&gt;&gt; On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Ron Bonica<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Folks,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t think that you can compare MPLS PHP with SRv6 PSP.<br>
&gt;&gt; MPLS PHP is a clear case of de-encapsulation. We do that all<br>
&gt;&gt; the time. In SRv6 PSP, we are removing something from the<br>
&gt;&gt; middle of a packet. That is quite a different story.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.o=
rg</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spri=
ng@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mai=
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From nobody Wed Mar  4 14:35:00 2020
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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
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From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case
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A case with no SRH is clearly not a case for PSP.
With regard to the case for PSP, as I said in my note I am concerned 
that if we want to support this specific case, then there are 
restrictions on deployment and operation that need to be called out.

For example, a path compute engine for example needs to know that it not 
only can not use such nodes as .END without prior PSP, but that it can 
not include them in transit paths.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/4/2020 5:01 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> Hi Joel, what you describe was also described by Dan Voyer and Jingrong 
> previously.  You’ve added some signalling color but otherwise the same.
> If you’ve read 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-net-pgm-illustration-00#section-2.4 
> 
> you can see how SRv6 is used for an L3VPN without an SRH present.
> 
> Combine that with the TE description with PSP here 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-net-pgm-illustration-00#section-2.8.1
> 
> Now you should be able to see how to put this together.
> 
> The WG decided illustrations such as this belong in the illustration draft.
> I believe the WG requested that be split from 
> draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming draft before adoption.
> That was over a year ago.
> 
> Darren
> 
> 
>> On Mar 4, 2020, at 3:41 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 
>> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I think I have now inferred what the intended use case is for PSP.  I 
>> really wish folks had stated it in full and explicitly, rather than 
>> implicitly a piece at a time, on the list.
>>
>> As noted below after the explanation, I think that supporting this use 
>> case does require some explanations somewhere.  And given that the 
>> support is in terms of PSP, I guess the NP draft is the place to put 
>> the caveats.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, the use case is as follows.
>> The operator has devices, that they reasonably wish to continue to use.
>> These devices can support encapsulation and decapsulation with 
>> sufficiently arbitrary content.
>> These devices comply with the RFC 8200 requirement for ignoring 
>> routing headers by punting those to the slow path.  With significant 
>> performance penalty.
>>  --  Presumably, these devices have some form of protection to prevent 
>> this slow-pathing from becoming a DoS on the other necessary control 
>> functions.  I don't think that protection is an SRv6 or NP problem. 
>>  But it is necessary.
>>
>> Thus, the SRv6 designers want to be able to use these devices as part 
>> of the SRv6 domain, strictly at entry and exit.  They use PSP as a way 
>> to avoid hitting the slow path on decapsulate.  (Presumably because 
>> the check that punts the packet to the slow path is before the check 
>> that says "decapsulate".  And it probably should be in that order.)
>>
>> In order to support this, the authors have also pretended that maximum 
>> SID depth is meaningful for a thing that is not a stack, and that 0 
>> means "no SRH permitted".  While an interesting stretch on the routing 
>> protocol semantics, it is not SPRING's problem.
>>
>> The fact that these nodes can not be SRv6 end nodes other than as 
>> terminal nodes with a prior node that advertised PSP SID(s) and where 
>> those PSP SIDs are used on any path that terminates at these end nodes 
>> is important.  It probably should be called out.  It would have helped 
>> a number of the examples that were discussed on the list.
>>
>> There is another implication that needs to be stated explicitly.  And 
>> I do not know how the necessary property can be indicated.  These 
>> nodes MUST NOT be transit nodes in an SRv6 path.
>>
>> Having parsed the use case, I would note that the topological 
>> constraints are pretty severe.  the operator must ensure that there 
>> are PSP processing nodes sufficiently close to these edge nodes that 
>> they do not destroy the traffic engineering properties in order to 
>> achieve the ingress / egress utilization.
>>
>> If all of this had been stated explicitly, I think we could have had a 
>> clear discussion of teh costs and benefits.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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=EF=BB=BFHi,

> I guarantee you there is case the performance penalty is more than 90%, on=
ly if the box send the IPv6 packet with RH or EH to the slow path (just to b=
e compatible with RFC8200)!
> And I think that's common even for not very old box.

So you are saying that we're going through all these discussions about PSP, j=
ust for boxes where the vendor can implement the SR control plane, line rate=
 decapsulation, but not to skip over RH in the case when remaining segments i=
s 0 except by punting it to the control plane?

That sounds like some really backwards hardware or lack of implementation ef=
fort...

I understand that fully handling RH might be tricky for some platforms, but t=
his discussion is only applicable to the special case where remaining=3D=3D0=
.

I get the feeling that we're adding a protocol feature just to save a few by=
tes of code in the fast path. That sounds like a very bad tradeoff/engineeri=
ng decision to me...

Cheers,
Sander



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Thank you Martin,

I support this clear statement. Even WG/AD management is expected to =
find the essence from bunch of emails, it shouldn't be easy task. Great =
job, thanks.

Best regards,
--satoru


> 2020/03/05 6:02=E3=80=81Martin Vigoureux =
<martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:
>=20
> WG,
>=20
> I wanted to bring more context to my decision.
>=20
> This document has received a lot of valuable reviews and comments =
which improved it. That served me as a base to determine consensus on =
the overall document.
>=20
> The point I'd like to insist on is the one I was mentioning in my =
previous e-mail. In my view, the remaining prominent discussion (and =
tension) point was about the text of 8200, its implications on the =
optional PSP capability, and the ramifications of it.
> I have determined there is rough consensus, in SPRING, on the way to =
read the specific text of 8200, but also that certain aspects go beyond =
SPRING and would benefit from being discussed with a wider community.
>=20
>=20
> I'd like to remind that this was a WG Chair level decision. Indeed, =
Bruno still needs to produce the shepherd write-up and submit the =
document for publication.
>=20
> Martin
>=20
> Le 2020-03-02 =C3=A0 19:53, Martin Vigoureux a =C3=A9crit :
>> WG,
>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating =
consensus for this WG LC.
>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that =
disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text =
of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an =
optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I =
have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by =
the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to =
move this document to the next stage.
>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
>> Martin
>> [1] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
>> [2] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
>> [3] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
>> Le 2019-12-05 =C3=A0 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a =C3=A9crit :
>>> Hello SPRING,
>>>=20
>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
>>>=20
>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent =
version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than =
December 20.
>>>=20
>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not =
duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are =
only spring specifics.
>>>=20
>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically =
debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for =
this point.
>>>=20
>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point =
and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted =
into parallel independent discussions)
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>>=20
>>> Bruno
>>>=20
>>> [1] =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
>>>=20
>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________=20
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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At Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:17:07 +0000,
"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Inline PC1.

Thank you for the clarification.  I'm not sure why you included the
expanded processing logic instead of just saying correct or incorrect
here:

> PC1:
>
> This is the exact processing at S2 combined End (4.1) with PSP (4.16.1):

...but I interpret the entire response as my understanding is correct.

Then, going back to the message from Robert:

>>> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its
>>> source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it
>>> has arrived at its ultimate destination".
>
>> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. Reason
>> being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which has
>> as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not
>> PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the specification.

This explanation is still cryptic to me, but based on the
now-hopefully-correct understanding of the PSP behavior,
- We originally have (T, S1) (S3, S2, S1; SL=2) [payload=encapsulated
IPv6 pakcet]
  There are 3 nodes in the routing header.
- At the node identified by S2 (second node in the routing header), we
  remove the routing header, so we have (T, S3) [payload=encapsulated
IPv6 pakcet]
- Packet arrives at the node identified by S3, the payload is processed

If we argue this behavior as not violating "extension headers cannot
be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate
destination" because "segment left" is 0 at that point (and therefore
S2 is the "final destination"), that's a very innovative
interpretation of the specification (not really surprisingly, given
how "innovative" SRv6 people are:-).  In fact, with that kind of
logic, we could write a specification which allows any intermediate
node in a routing header decreases the segment left to 0 (regardless
of the previous value of it) at its own discretion, and then claim
it's the final (ultimate) destination and does whatever is allowed for
the final destination node.

Overall, it seems so artificial, if not cheating, only for avoiding to
be told that it violates RFC8200.  The PSP behavior essentially gives
an intermediate ("penultimate") node in the routing header an option
to remove the routing header from the packet.  I can't think of a
reason why we can't just say so and say that it updates the
corresponding part of RFC8200 accordingly, than for cheaply avoiding
the discussions involved in updates to an existing standard.

Now, I've noticed an argument whether or not this spec
violates/updates RFC8200 isn't important.  In a sense I see the point:
what matters is to discuss the effect of the proposed behavior and
make sure it doesn't cause unexpected problems; whether it updates the
pre-exiting spec is a matter of formality in some sense.  But in this
specific case, I still believe that's a bad move for two reasons:

1. (seemingly) as a result of trying to insist it's standard
   compliant, the processing logic becomes unnecessarily cryptic.
   There's essentially no need to decrease 'segment left' and then
   check if it is 0.  A more explicit condition that it's the
   penultimate node is that 'segment left == 1' on receiving the
   packet; we can simply perform the special PSP behavior from there.
   If we're willing to say it updates RFC8200, we can simply say the
   penultimate node has an option to remove the routing header and
   show the more straightforward logic.
2. I'm afraid this would establish an unfortunate precedent for future
   protocol development to look for a wording loophole in existing
   standards and exploit it as an easy shortcut to publish something
   possibly controversial.  Just as we saw, even a very carefully
   reviewed document like RFC8200 always has some glitches and
   ambiguities.  If we allow casually exploiting these loopholes for
   the convenience of new protocol designers, more and more people
   will follow and we'll eventually have very inconsistent protocols
   and, in worse cases, loss of interoperabaility and other harm.  On
   the other hand, we could use this opportunity for a good precedent
   to show no standard is set in stone and can be updated with new
   developments and proper discussions and justifications.

For this reason, I disagree with this text of
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12:

   This behavior does not contravene Section 4 of [RFC8200] because the
   current destination address of the incoming packet is the address of
   the node executing the PSP behavior.

If I were to offer something in order to be hopefully more
constructive, that would be something like this:

- Add a tag of "Updates RFC8200 (if approved)"

- In Section 4.16.1, simply say something like: "A penultimate SR
  Segment Node MAY remove the SRH from the IPv6 packet it forwards,
  even if it is not the final (ultimate) destination in the path
  specified in the SRH". (I notice network-programming-12 is already
  pretty close to this)

- Perhaps change the pseudo code as follows
  S11.1   If (Segments Left == 1) { /* meaning this is a penultimate node */
  S11.2      Update IPv6 DA with Segment List[0]
  S12.3.     Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the
             Next Header value of the SRH
  S12.4.     Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
             value of the SRH
  S12.5.     Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain
  S12.6.     Go to S15
  S12.7.  }

- Clarify it's an update to RFC8200, e.g. as follows:

    This behavior formally updates Section 4 of [RFC8200], which does
    not allow deleting an extension header until the packet arrives at
    the destination.  While the literal text of RFC8200 could read as
    if the deletion were allowed for an intermediate node specified in
    a routing header, this document takes a safer and tighter
    interpretation as described in [the expected draft by Ron here]
    and updates it.

    The update is believed to be sufficiently safe and worthwhile:
    [Justifications here: why we need PSP; explain it doesn't break
    PMTUD; add considerations on AH, etc]

Like Brian's proposed text, whether such an update is acceptable is a
different question.  But it's at least a fair game to me.  I'd
seriously consider the justifications, and, depending on its details,
it's quite possible that it's something I can support.

(Whether we really need such a hack as PSP may also be a question, as
some others have questioned.  It seems cleaner to me if we could avoid
the hack in the first place, but I guess I don't have enough knowledge
to judge how badly it is needed and whether there's really no
"cleaner" alternative, so I wouldn't comment on it here).

--
JINMEI, Tatuya


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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On 4/3/20 18:21, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> Hi Ron
> 
> I don’t think you are really asking equipment vendors to provide that 
> information on this list.  That will not happen.

I don't think you're really asking us to ship PSP without a proper 
rationale. That will not happen.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, spring@ietf.org
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Martin,

On 4/3/20 18:02, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> WG,
> 
> I wanted to bring more context to my decision.
> 
> This document has received a lot of valuable reviews and comments which 
> improved it. That served me as a base to determine consensus on the 
> overall document.
> 
> The point I'd like to insist on is the one I was mentioning in my 
> previous e-mail. In my view, the remaining prominent discussion (and 
> tension) point was about the text of 8200, its implications on the 
> optional PSP capability, and the ramifications of it.
> I have determined there is rough consensus, in SPRING, on the way to 
> read the specific text of 8200, but also that certain aspects go beyond 
> SPRING and would benefit from being discussed with a wider community.
> 
> 
> I'd like to remind that this was a WG Chair level decision. Indeed, 
> Bruno still needs to produce the shepherd write-up and submit the 
> document for publication.

May I ask what's the status of this I-D?  -

On one hand, both Bruno and you declared consensus to move it forward. 
On another hand, the authors keep making changes to address comments 
(good) so what the wg will ship will be very different from the document 
on which you claimed consensus. Besides, the datatracker lists the 
document as "in WGLC", as opposed to "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" or 
"WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up".

Last, but not least, are you planning to do a second WGLC?

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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Hi Joel,


On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, 07:42 Joel M. Halpern, <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

> I think I have now inferred what the intended use case is for PSP.  I
> really wish folks had stated it in full and explicitly, rather than
> implicitly a piece at a time, on the list.
>
> As noted below after the explanation, I think that supporting this use
> case does require some explanations somewhere.  And given that the
> support is in terms of PSP, I guess the NP draft is the place to put the
> caveats.
>
> As far as I can tell, the use case is as follows.
> The operator has devices, that they reasonably wish to continue to use.
>

My understanding is that the operator wants to extend their SRv6 control
plane domain onto PEs, past the edge of their current SRv6 forwarding plane
domain, because they don't currently have budget available to upgrade the
forwarding plane in those PEs.

This situation would be temporary until there is budget to upgrade the PEs'
forwarding planes. I'd think this situation is likely to last no more than
2 to 3 years in a big operator. The more successful SR is, the quicker the
upgrades are likely to be.

So this is effectively a permanent IETF technical workaround for a
temporary financial problem.

In 5 to 10 years time it is unlikely anybody would have a need or want PSP
in this scenario, because all SRv6 control and SRv6 forwarding planes in
all SR enabled networks would be congruent.

Regards,
Mark.


These devices can support encapsulation and decapsulation with
> sufficiently arbitrary content.
> These devices comply with the RFC 8200 requirement for ignoring routing
> headers by punting those to the slow path.  With significant performance
> penalty.
>    --  Presumably, these devices have some form of protection to prevent
> this slow-pathing from becoming a DoS on the other necessary control
> functions.  I don't think that protection is an SRv6 or NP problem.  But
> it is necessary.
>
> Thus, the SRv6 designers want to be able to use these devices as part of
> the SRv6 domain, strictly at entry and exit.  They use PSP as a way to
> avoid hitting the slow path on decapsulate.  (Presumably because the
> check that punts the packet to the slow path is before the check that
> says "decapsulate".  And it probably should be in that order.)
>
> In order to support this, the authors have also pretended that maximum
> SID depth is meaningful for a thing that is not a stack, and that 0
> means "no SRH permitted".  While an interesting stretch on the routing
> protocol semantics, it is not SPRING's problem.
>
> The fact that these nodes can not be SRv6 end nodes other than as
> terminal nodes with a prior node that advertised PSP SID(s) and where
> those PSP SIDs are used on any path that terminates at these end nodes
> is important.  It probably should be called out.  It would have helped a
> number of the examples that were discussed on the list.
>
> There is another implication that needs to be stated explicitly.  And I
> do not know how the necessary property can be indicated.  These nodes
> MUST NOT be transit nodes in an SRv6 path.
>
> Having parsed the use case, I would note that the topological
> constraints are pretty severe.  the operator must ensure that there are
> PSP processing nodes sufficiently close to these edge nodes that they do
> not destroy the traffic engineering properties in order to achieve the
> ingress / egress utilization.
>
> If all of this had been stated explicitly, I think we could have had a
> clear discussion of teh costs and benefits.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>Hi Joel,<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, 07:4=
2 Joel M. Halpern, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I think I have now inferred what the int=
ended use case is for PSP.=C2=A0 I <br>
really wish folks had stated it in full and explicitly, rather than <br>
implicitly a piece at a time, on the list.<br>
<br>
As noted below after the explanation, I think that supporting this use <br>
case does require some explanations somewhere.=C2=A0 And given that the <br=
>
support is in terms of PSP, I guess the NP draft is the place to put the <b=
r>
caveats.<br>
<br>
As far as I can tell, the use case is as follows.<br>
The operator has devices, that they reasonably wish to continue to use.<br>=
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">My u=
nderstanding is that the operator wants to extend their SRv6 control plane =
domain onto PEs, past the edge of their current SRv6 forwarding plane domai=
n, because they don&#39;t currently have budget available to upgrade the fo=
rwarding plane in those PEs.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">This situation would be temporary until there is budget to upgrade the=
 PEs&#39; forwarding planes. I&#39;d think this situation is likely to last=
 no more than 2 to 3 years in a big operator. The more successful SR is, th=
e quicker the upgrades are likely to be.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">So this is effectively a permanent IETF technical workarou=
nd for a temporary financial problem.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">In 5 to 10 years time it is unlikely anybody would have a nee=
d or want PSP in this scenario, because all SRv6 control and SRv6 forwardin=
g planes in all SR enabled networks would be congruent.</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
These devices can support encapsulation and decapsulation with <br>
sufficiently arbitrary content.<br>
These devices comply with the RFC 8200 requirement for ignoring routing <br=
>
headers by punting those to the slow path.=C2=A0 With significant performan=
ce <br>
penalty.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0--=C2=A0 Presumably, these devices have some form of protectio=
n to prevent <br>
this slow-pathing from becoming a DoS on the other necessary control <br>
functions.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that protection is an SRv6 or NP problem=
.=C2=A0 But <br>
it is necessary.<br>
<br>
Thus, the SRv6 designers want to be able to use these devices as part of <b=
r>
the SRv6 domain, strictly at entry and exit.=C2=A0 They use PSP as a way to=
 <br>
avoid hitting the slow path on decapsulate.=C2=A0 (Presumably because the <=
br>
check that punts the packet to the slow path is before the check that <br>
says &quot;decapsulate&quot;.=C2=A0 And it probably should be in that order=
.)<br>
<br>
In order to support this, the authors have also pretended that maximum <br>
SID depth is meaningful for a thing that is not a stack, and that 0 <br>
means &quot;no SRH permitted&quot;.=C2=A0 While an interesting stretch on t=
he routing <br>
protocol semantics, it is not SPRING&#39;s problem.<br>
<br>
The fact that these nodes can not be SRv6 end nodes other than as <br>
terminal nodes with a prior node that advertised PSP SID(s) and where <br>
those PSP SIDs are used on any path that terminates at these end nodes <br>
is important.=C2=A0 It probably should be called out.=C2=A0 It would have h=
elped a <br>
number of the examples that were discussed on the list.<br>
<br>
There is another implication that needs to be stated explicitly.=C2=A0 And =
I <br>
do not know how the necessary property can be indicated.=C2=A0 These nodes =
<br>
MUST NOT be transit nodes in an SRv6 path.<br>
<br>
Having parsed the use case, I would note that the topological <br>
constraints are pretty severe.=C2=A0 the operator must ensure that there ar=
e <br>
PSP processing nodes sufficiently close to these edge nodes that they do <b=
r>
not destroy the traffic engineering properties in order to achieve the <br>
ingress / egress utilization.<br>
<br>
If all of this had been stated explicitly, I think we could have had a <br>
clear discussion of teh costs and benefits.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Jinmei,



Please check inline below.



-----Original Message-----
From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of ????
Sent: 05 March 2020 05:15
To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Robe=
rt Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and m=
ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming



At Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:17:07 +0000,

"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:=
pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



> Inline PC1.



Thank you for the clarification.  I'm not sure why you included the expande=
d processing logic instead of just saying correct or incorrect

here:

[KT] I believe Pablo might have done this as a hint on how to look at the p=
rocessing logic of the PSP flavor in the conjunction with the SID behavior =
pseudocode.



> PC1:

>

> This is the exact processing at S2 combined End (4.1) with PSP (4.16.1):



....but I interpret the entire response as my understanding is correct.



Then, going back to the message from Robert:



>>> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its

>>> source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet

>>> until it has arrived at its ultimate destination".

>

>> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence.

>> Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated*

>> packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node

>> X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the spec=
ification.



This explanation is still cryptic to me, but based on the now-hopefully-cor=
rect understanding of the PSP behavior,

- We originally have (T, S1) (S3, S2, S1; SL=3D2) [payload=3Dencapsulated

IPv6 pakcet]

  There are 3 nodes in the routing header.

- At the node identified by S2 (second node in the routing header), we

  remove the routing header, so we have (T, S3) [payload=3Dencapsulated

IPv6 pakcet]

- Packet arrives at the node identified by S3, the payload is processed

[KT] This is correct at a high level. The last line is about processing per=
 the behaviour of the SID S3 - e.g. when it is End.DT6 it would be to decap=
, perform lookup in the VRF associated with the SID and then forward the in=
ner IPv6 packet.



If we argue this behavior as not violating "extension headers cannot be rem=
oved from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination" becaus=
e "segment left" is 0 at that point (and therefore

S2 is the "final destination"), that's a very innovative interpretation of =
the specification (not really surprisingly, given how "innovative" SRv6 peo=
ple are:-).  In fact, with that kind of logic, we could write a specificati=
on which allows any intermediate node in a routing header decreases the seg=
ment left to 0 (regardless of the previous value of it) at its own discreti=
on, and then claim it's the final (ultimate) destination and does whatever =
is allowed for the final destination node.

[KT] This is definitely not the argument. Please check this link for the ex=
planation of the logic : https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/kV6By=
4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/



Overall, it seems so artificial, if not cheating, only for avoiding to be t=
old that it violates RFC8200.  The PSP behavior essentially gives an interm=
ediate ("penultimate") node in the routing header an option to remove the r=
outing header from the packet.  I can't think of a reason why we can't just=
 say so and say that it updates the corresponding part of RFC8200 according=
ly, than for cheaply avoiding the discussions involved in updates to an exi=
sting standard.

[KT] Nothing artificial and no cheating. Things are clear as indicated in t=
he previous link. At least that is what the authors and (in my reading) a s=
ignificant number of other Spring WG members are saying. Please also check =
the following:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CmT-8nSZs8O8i9N9dD8gHd6uHAo/ (=
and the links provided by Martin on his previous email on that same thread)



Now, I've noticed an argument whether or not this spec violates/updates RFC=
8200 isn't important.  In a sense I see the point:

what matters is to discuss the effect of the proposed behavior and make sur=
e it doesn't cause unexpected problems; whether it updates the pre-exiting =
spec is a matter of formality in some sense.  But in this specific case, I =
still believe that's a bad move for two reasons:

[KT] I see a significant amount of discussion on the WG to discuss and conc=
lude that there are no technical problems. In that same spirit, let us also=
 look at your =1B$B!H=1B(Breasons=1B$B!I=1B(B.



1. (seemingly) as a result of trying to insist it's standard

   compliant, the processing logic becomes unnecessarily cryptic.

   There's essentially no need to decrease 'segment left' and then

   check if it is 0.  A more explicit condition that it's the

   penultimate node is that 'segment left =3D=3D 1' on receiving the

   packet; we can simply perform the special PSP behavior from there.

   If we're willing to say it updates RFC8200, we can simply say the

   penultimate node has an option to remove the routing header and

   show the more straightforward logic.

[KT] There is no technical problem being stated here. The logic is not cryp=
tic - please consider the hint from Pablo above i.e. to look at the process=
ing as whole. If the pseudocode is complicated for you to consume, then ple=
ase do refer to the recent text update that make things crystal clear : htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12#sect=
ion-4.16.1


   SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the
   Destination Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its SID
   address.  A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is one that, as part
   of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH into the IPv6
   Destination Address and decrements Segments Left value from one to
   zero.

   The PSP operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Segment
   Endpoint Node and does not happen at any Transit Node.



And then



   This behavior does not contravene Section 4 of [RFC8200]<https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/rfc8200#section-4> because the

   current destination address of the incoming packet is the address of

   the node executing the PSP behavior.







2. I'm afraid this would establish an unfortunate precedent for future

   protocol development to look for a wording loophole in existing

   standards and exploit it as an easy shortcut to publish something

   possibly controversial.  Just as we saw, even a very carefully

  reviewed document like RFC8200 always has some glitches and

   ambiguities.  If we allow casually exploiting these loopholes for

   the convenience of new protocol designers, more and more people

   will follow and we'll eventually have very inconsistent protocols

   and, in worse cases, loss of interoperabaility and other harm.  On

   the other hand, we could use this opportunity for a good precedent

   to show no standard is set in stone and can be updated with new

   developments and proper discussions and justifications.



For this reason, I disagree with this text of

draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12:



   This behavior does not contravene Section 4 of [RFC8200] because the

   current destination address of the incoming packet is the address of

   the node executing the PSP behavior.

[KT] Again, this is not a technical point. It arises out of our disagreemen=
t on RFC8200 text.



If I were to offer something in order to be hopefully more constructive, th=
at would be something like this:



- Add a tag of "Updates RFC8200 (if approved)"

[KT] There is no case for doing this. Again it is the same disagreement on =
RFC8200 text.



- In Section 4.16.1, simply say something like: "A penultimate SR

  Segment Node MAY remove the SRH from the IPv6 packet it forwards,

  even if it is not the final (ultimate) destination in the path

  specified in the SRH". (I notice network-programming-12 is already

  pretty close to this)

[KT] What is there in the draft already is a much better text IMHO.



- Perhaps change the pseudo code as follows

  S11.1   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 1) { /* meaning this is a penultimate no=
de */

  S11.2      Update IPv6 DA with Segment List[0]

  S12.3.     Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the

             Next Header value of the SRH

  S12.4.     Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len

             value of the SRH

  S12.5.     Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain

  S12.6.     Go to S15

  S12.7.  }

[KT] Please look at the processing pseudocode for a SID behavior and the PS=
P (as well as other non-PSP) flavors as a whole. At the end, any implemente=
r is free to code and implement the logic in their own way as long as the b=
ehaviour and result is consistent.



- Clarify it's an update to RFC8200, e.g. as follows:



    This behavior formally updates Section 4 of [RFC8200], which does

    not allow deleting an extension header until the packet arrives at

    the destination.  While the literal text of RFC8200 could read as

    if the deletion were allowed for an intermediate node specified in

    a routing header, this document takes a safer and tighter

    interpretation as described in [the expected draft by Ron here]

    and updates it.

[KT] I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need to repeat why not required =1B$B!D=1B(B



    The update is believed to be sufficiently safe and worthwhile:

    [Justifications here: why we need PSP; explain it doesn't break

    PMTUD; add considerations on AH, etc]

[KT] These are covered already. Can you please re-check https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12#section-4.16.1



Like Brian's proposed text, whether such an update is acceptable is a diffe=
rent question.  But it's at least a fair game to me.  I'd seriously conside=
r the justifications, and, depending on its details, it's quite possible th=
at it's something I can support.

[KT] Thanks for your review and feedback. I can only hope to have been able=
 to help clarify and look forward to your support.



Thanks,

Ketan



(Whether we really need such a hack as PSP may also be a question, as some =
others have questioned.  It seems cleaner to me if we could avoid the hack =
in the first place, but I guess I don't have enough knowledge to judge how =
badly it is needed and whether there's really no "cleaner" alternative, so =
I wouldn't comment on it here).



--

JINMEI, Tatuya



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi Jinmei,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Please check inline below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:JA">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: ipv6 &lt;ipv6-bounces@ietf.org&gt; On Behalf Of ????<br>
Sent: 05 March 2020 05:15<br>
To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt=
;<br>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; Bob Hinden &lt;bob.hinden@gmail.com&gt;=
; Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and m=
ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">At Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:17:07 &#43;0000,<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&quot;Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:win=
dowtext;text-decoration:none">pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span><=
/a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Inline PC1.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Thank you for the clarification.&nbsp; I'm not su=
re why you included the expanded processing logic instead of just saying co=
rrect or incorrect<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] I believe =
Pablo might have done this as a hint on how to look at the processing logic=
 of the PSP flavor in the conjunction with the SID behavior pseudocode.</sp=
an></i></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; PC1:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; This is the exact processing at S2 combined =
End (4.1) with PSP (4.16.1):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">....but I interpret the entire response as my und=
erstanding is correct.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Then, going back to the message from Robert:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;Extension headers cannot be ad=
ded to a packet after it has left its
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; source node and extension headers ca=
nnot be removed from a packet
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; until it has arrived at its ultimate=
 destination&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; PSP would be still not be violating anyt=
hing said in this sentence.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Reason being is that we are dealing here=
 with an *encapsulated*
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; packet which has as its ultimate destina=
tion SR node X. That SR node
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; X is to perform or not PSP. So it is sti=
ll fully compliant with the specification.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">This explanation is still cryptic to me, but base=
d on the now-hopefully-correct understanding of the PSP behavior,<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- We originally have (T, S1) (S3, S2, S1; SL=3D2)=
 [payload=3Dencapsulated<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">IPv6 pakcet]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; There are 3 nodes in the routing header.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- At the node identified by S2 (second node in th=
e routing header), we<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; remove the routing header, so we have (T, =
S3) [payload=3Dencapsulated<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">IPv6 pakcet]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Packet arrives at the node identified by S3, th=
e payload is processed<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] This is co=
rrect at a high level. The last line is about processing per the behaviour =
of the SID S3 &#8211; e.g. when it is End.DT6 it would be to decap, perform=
 lookup in the VRF associated with the SID
 and then forward the inner IPv6 packet.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">If we argue this behavior as not violating &quot;=
extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at i=
ts ultimate destination&quot; because &quot;segment left&quot; is 0 at that=
 point (and therefore<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">S2 is the &quot;final destination&quot;), that's =
a very innovative interpretation of the specification (not really surprisin=
gly, given how &quot;innovative&quot; SRv6 people are:-).&nbsp; In fact, wi=
th that kind of logic, we could write a specification which
 allows any intermediate node in a routing header decreases the segment lef=
t to 0 (regardless of the previous value of it) at its own discretion, and =
then claim it's the final (ultimate) destination and does whatever is allow=
ed for the final destination node.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] This is de=
finitely not the argument. Please check this link for the explanation of th=
e logic :
</span></i></b><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/kV6B=
y4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/kV6B=
y4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/</a><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Overall, it seems so artificial, if not cheating,=
 only for avoiding to be told that it violates RFC8200.&nbsp; The PSP behav=
ior essentially gives an intermediate (&quot;penultimate&quot;) node in the=
 routing header an option to remove the routing header
 from the packet.&nbsp; I can't think of a reason why we can't just say so =
and say that it updates the corresponding part of RFC8200 accordingly, than=
 for cheaply avoiding the discussions involved in updates to an existing st=
andard.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] Nothing ar=
tificial and no cheating. Things are clear as indicated in the previous lin=
k. At least that is what the authors and (in my reading) a significant numb=
er of other Spring WG members are saying.
 Please also check the following:<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/=
spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/=
spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/=
spring/CmT-8nSZs8O8i9N9dD8gHd6uHAo/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/=
spring/CmT-8nSZs8O8i9N9dD8gHd6uHAo/</a>
<b><i>(and the links provided by Martin on his previous email on that same =
thread)</i></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Now, I've noticed an argument whether or not this=
 spec violates/updates RFC8200 isn't important.&nbsp; In a sense I see the =
point:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">what matters is to discuss the effect of the prop=
osed behavior and make sure it doesn't cause unexpected problems; whether i=
t updates the pre-exiting spec is a matter of formality in some sense.&nbsp=
; But in this specific case, I still believe
 that's a bad move for two reasons:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] I see a si=
gnificant amount of discussion on the WG to discuss and conclude that there=
 are no technical problems. In that same spirit, let us also look at your =
=1B$B!H=1B(Breasons=1B$B!I=1B(B.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">1. (seemingly) as a result of trying to insist it=
's standard<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; compliant, the processing logic beco=
mes unnecessarily cryptic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; There's essentially no need to decre=
ase 'segment left' and then<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; check if it is 0.&nbsp; A more expli=
cit condition that it's the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; penultimate node is that 'segment le=
ft =3D=3D 1' on receiving the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; packet; we can simply perform the sp=
ecial PSP behavior from there.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; If we're willing to say it updates R=
FC8200, we can simply say the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; penultimate node has an option to re=
move the routing header and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; show the more straightforward logic.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] There is n=
o technical problem being stated here. The logic is not cryptic &#8211; ple=
ase consider the hint from Pablo above i.e. to look at the processing as wh=
ole. If the pseudocode is complicated for
 you to consume, then please do refer to the recent text update that make t=
hings crystal clear :
</span></i></b><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv=
6-network-programming-12#section-4.16.1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12#section-4.16.1</a><b><i><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; SR Seg=
ment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Destin=
ation Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its SID<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; addres=
s.&nbsp; A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is one that, as part<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; of the=
 SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH into the IPv6<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Destin=
ation Address and decrements Segments Left value from one to<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; zero.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; The PS=
P operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Segment<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-IN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Endpoi=
nt Node and does not happen at any Transit Node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">And then<o:p></=
o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; This behavior does not contra=
vene <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8200#section-4">Section&nbsp=
;4 of [RFC8200]</a> because the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; current destination address o=
f the incoming packet is the address of<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; the node executing the PSP be=
havior.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">2. I'm afraid this would establish an unfortunate=
 precedent for future<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol development to look for a w=
ording loophole in existing<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; standards and exploit it as an easy =
shortcut to publish something<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; possibly controversial.&nbsp; Just a=
s we saw, even a very carefully<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;reviewed document like RFC8200 always=
 has some glitches and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; ambiguities.&nbsp; If we allow casua=
lly exploiting these loopholes for<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; the convenience of new protocol desi=
gners, more and more people<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; will follow and we'll eventually hav=
e very inconsistent protocols<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; and, in worse cases, loss of interop=
erabaility and other harm.&nbsp; On<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; the other hand, we could use this op=
portunity for a good precedent<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; to show no standard is set in stone =
and can be updated with new<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; developments and proper discussions =
and justifications.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">For this reason, I disagree with this text of<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12:<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; This behavior does not contravene Se=
ction 4 of [RFC8200] because the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; current destination address of the i=
ncoming packet is the address of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; the node executing the PSP behavior.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] Again, thi=
s is not a technical point. It arises out of our disagreement on RFC8200 te=
xt.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">If I were to offer something in order to be hopef=
ully more constructive, that would be something like this:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Add a tag of &quot;Updates RFC8200 (if approved=
)&quot;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] There is n=
o case for doing this. Again it is the same disagreement on RFC8200 text.</=
span></i></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- In Section 4.16.1, simply say something like: &=
quot;A penultimate SR<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; Segment Node MAY remove the SRH from the I=
Pv6 packet it forwards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; even if it is not the final (ultimate) des=
tination in the path<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; specified in the SRH&quot;. (I notice netw=
ork-programming-12 is already<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; pretty close to this)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] What is th=
ere in the draft already is a much better text IMHO.</span></i></b><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Perhaps change the pseudo code as follows<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S11.1&nbsp;&nbsp; If (Segments Left =3D=3D=
 1) { /* meaning this is a penultimate node */<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S11.2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Update=
 IPv6 DA with Segment List[0]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S12.3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Update the =
Next Header field in the preceding header to the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Next Header value of the SRH<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S12.4.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrease th=
e IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the SRH<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S12.5.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Remove the =
SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S12.6.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Go to S15<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; S12.7.&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] Please loo=
k at the processing pseudocode for a SID behavior and the PSP (as well as o=
ther non-PSP) flavors as a whole. At the end, any implementer is free to co=
de and implement the logic in their
 own way as long as the behaviour and result is consistent.</span></i></b><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Clarify it's an update to RFC8200, e.g. as foll=
ows:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This behavior formally updates=
 Section 4 of [RFC8200], which does<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; not allow deleting an extensio=
n header until the packet arrives at<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the destination.&nbsp; While t=
he literal text of RFC8200 could read as<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if the deletion were allowed f=
or an intermediate node specified in<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a routing header, this documen=
t takes a safer and tighter<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interpretation as described in=
 [the expected draft by Ron here]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and updates it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] I don=1B$B=
!G=1B(Bt need to repeat why not required =1B$B!D=1B(B</span></i></b><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The update is believed to be s=
ufficiently safe and worthwhile:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [Justifications here: why we n=
eed PSP; explain it doesn't break<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PMTUD; add considerations on A=
H, etc]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] These are =
covered already. Can you please re-check
</span></i></b><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv=
6-network-programming-12#section-4.16.1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12#section-4.16.1</a><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Like Brian's proposed text, whether such an updat=
e is acceptable is a different question.&nbsp; But it's at least a fair gam=
e to me.&nbsp; I'd seriously consider the justifications, and, depending on=
 its details, it's quite possible that it's
 something I can support.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">[KT] Thanks for=
 your review and feedback. I can only hope to have been able to help clarif=
y and look forward to your support.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">Thanks,<o:p></o=
:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"color:black">Ketan</span></i=
></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">(Whether we really need such a hack as PSP may al=
so be a question, as some others have questioned.&nbsp; It seems cleaner to=
 me if we could avoid the hack in the first place, but I guess I don't have=
 enough knowledge to judge how badly it
 is needed and whether there's really no &quot;cleaner&quot; alternative, s=
o I wouldn't comment on it here).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">JINMEI, Tatuya<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-------------------------------------------------=
-------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org"><span style=3D"c=
olor:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ipv6@ietf.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ipv6</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-------------------------------------------------=
-------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>
To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Hi Fernando,

My understanding on the Consensus expressed by Martin is that the SPRING WG=
 has reached consensus on the direction of progressing this draft including=
 what to improve in the draft and how to improve. What was left is just to =
update the text.

Now a new version of the draft has been posted with the new text based on t=
he suggestions posted over the mailing list. You could have a further revie=
w and see whether you have any comments.

Best regards,
Shuping


-----Original Message-----
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:15 AM
To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; spring@ietf.org
Cc: 'ietf@ietf.org' <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Martin,

On 4/3/20 18:02, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> WG,
>=20
> I wanted to bring more context to my decision.
>=20
> This document has received a lot of valuable reviews and comments=20
> which improved it. That served me as a base to determine consensus on=20
> the overall document.
>=20
> The point I'd like to insist on is the one I was mentioning in my=20
> previous e-mail. In my view, the remaining prominent discussion (and
> tension) point was about the text of 8200, its implications on the=20
> optional PSP capability, and the ramifications of it.
> I have determined there is rough consensus, in SPRING, on the way to=20
> read the specific text of 8200, but also that certain aspects go=20
> beyond SPRING and would benefit from being discussed with a wider communi=
ty.
>=20
>=20
> I'd like to remind that this was a WG Chair level decision. Indeed,=20
> Bruno still needs to produce the shepherd write-up and submit the=20
> document for publication.

May I ask what's the status of this I-D?  -

On one hand, both Bruno and you declared consensus to move it forward.=20
On another hand, the authors keep making changes to address comments
(good) so what the wg will ship will be very different from the document on=
 which you claimed consensus. Besides, the datatracker lists the document a=
s "in WGLC", as opposed to "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" or "WG Consensus=
: Waiting for Write-Up".

Last, but not least, are you planning to do a second WGLC?

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809=
 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1



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--000000000000fe3d2905a01bdcfa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

It is not at all unusual for drafts to change AFTER WG consensus has been
reached. The question is whether the changes are within the spirit of what
there is consensus for. So the mere fact that a draft was revised just
before consensus being declared is not in itself evidence of perfidy or a
cause for calling for anyone's resignation.

I am getting rather fed up of the way in which this is being discussed. I
understand that people have deep seated ideological beliefs regarding the
sanctity of what they imagine the Internet architecture to be. But making
public demands for people to resign is not the way to address that.

I also note that the outcome of the architecture discussion I attempted to
provoke was the IP packet purists stating 'you can have your opinion on
architecture but others are entitled to disagree'.

Well hello, that was precisely the point I was making. You cannot preach
'permissionless innovation' and then insist on a single architectural view
being correct. I do not insist that my model is the only correct one, but I
do have at least part of a model that describes the Internet as it is today
and I am not aware of anyone else in the argument having attempted that.

Demanding resignations over disagreements over sacred texts that are not
even written down seems an unreasonable way to behave and I think folk need
to stop it.


For those of you who are interested, this is where I got on the model to
date. As you will note, I explain why layered models do not work and why
the OSI model in particular is unhelpful. But the principles of
encapsulation are still important and we need to understand what the
interfaces between the layers are. And this is especially true for projects
like DNS Discovery and QUIC where we would wish to change those layers.

http://defaultdenysecurity.com/Professional/Architecture/

--000000000000fe3d2905a01bdcfa
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">It =
is not at all unusual for drafts to change AFTER WG consensus has been reac=
hed. The question is whether the changes are within the spirit of what ther=
e is consensus for. So the mere fact that a draft was revised just before c=
onsensus being declared is not in itself evidence of perfidy or a cause for=
 calling for anyone&#39;s resignation.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-size:small">I am getting rather fed up of the way in which this is being =
discussed. I understand that people have deep seated ideological beliefs re=
garding the sanctity of what they imagine the Internet architecture to be. =
But making public demands for people to resign is not the way to address th=
at.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I also note that the =
outcome of the architecture discussion I attempted to provoke was the IP pa=
cket purists stating &#39;you can have your opinion on architecture but oth=
ers are entitled to disagree&#39;.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s=
ize:small">Well hello, that was precisely the point I was making. You canno=
t preach &#39;permissionless innovation&#39; and then insist on a single ar=
chitectural view being correct. I do not insist that my model is the only c=
orrect one, but I do have at least part of a model that describes the Inter=
net as it is today and I am not aware of anyone else in the argument having=
 attempted that.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size=
:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">De=
manding resignations over disagreements over sacred texts that are not even=
 written down seems an unreasonable way to behave and I think folk need to =
stop it.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">For those of you who are i=
nterested, this is where I got on the model to date. As you will note, I ex=
plain why layered models do not work and why the OSI model in particular is=
 unhelpful. But the principles of encapsulation are still important and we =
need to understand what the interfaces between the layers are. And this is =
especially true for projects like DNS Discovery and QUIC where we would wis=
h to change those layers.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"=
><a href=3D"http://defaultdenysecurity.com/Professional/Architecture/">http=
://defaultdenysecurity.com/Professional/Architecture/</a><br></div></div>

--000000000000fe3d2905a01bdcfa--


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From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Mark Smith" <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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From: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 10:23:29 -0600
Message-ID: <CAHzoHbu3tNPv+=Fs-4o-PKxXhjt6tBReiyuyGVvFpdaVuJvqSA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>,  "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Yf5cEalPKdMEDVuRbHnRl3b0__E>
Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Ketan,

See inline [CB].

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> You are right in that there is no assumption that all SRv6 locators in a
> domain are allocated from the same block. Therefore knowing the blocks us=
ed
> in the domain is useful.
>

[CB] Since you refer to "blocks" (plural) in this sentence, are you saying
that in the scenario where all SRv6 locators in a domain are not allocated
from the same block, you would expect different routers in the same domain
to advertise different values of B and N?  For example, assume we have a
network where all SRv6 locators in a domain are not allocated from the same
block.  Router A advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 2000::/64,
and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior.  Router B
advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 3000::/64, and an SRv6 End
SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A and B
advertise as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLVs
?


>
>
> The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the B and N parts of the
> locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On the receiver side, th=
e
> IGP may not really do much with this information, however it enables
> propagation of this information from all nodes in the network to be
> advertised out via BGP-LS (or other mechanisms) as part of the topology
> feed. Once this is part of the topology feed, it enables use-cases on
> controllers to perform network wide validation of the SRv6 SID block
> provisioning and can also help in automation of the security aspects
> described in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5
>
>
>
[CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anything with B and N, then I
think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions needs to clarify
this.  I have a similar observation about Fun. Length and Arg. Length in
the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .  As far as I can tell, none of the
endpoint behaviors that are currently specified to be carried in ISIS End,
End.X, and LAN End.X SIDs sub-TLVs uses an Argument, so there is never a
case where an SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value
for Arg. Length. What should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero
value of the Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn't use an
argument?  Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS speaker needs
to know the Arg. Length ?

Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 02 March 2020 23:39
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;
> lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; Peter Psenak
> (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>; Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Ketan,
>
>
>
> Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 locators used in a domain
> from a single block is optional.
>
>
>
> However, assuming for the moment that a network operator has chosen to
> allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a single block, so that
> there is a well-defined value of B and N across a domain, what is the use
> of having a router advertise its own understanding of these two values?
> And what is a receiver supposed to do with this information?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> Thanks fort the follow up.
>
> Clarification inline [Bruno]
>
>
>
> *From**:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM
> *To:* DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Chris Bowers
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psenak (ppsenak)
> *Subject:* RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Hi Bruno,
>
>
>
> I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well described and
> covered in the net-pgm draft as also the corresponding IGP extensions. Is
> the question is more about the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part of it (what i=
s not in the block
> part is in the node part as per the text in the net-pgm draft)?
>
>
>
> The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the fo=
llowing:
>
> Under
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5
> =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2 =E2=80=A6 look under SRGB f=
or SRv6
>
>
>
> [Bruno]
>
> To clarify, my question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but r=
elated to the
> usage, by the receiver, of the following piece of information:
>
>
>
>       LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length
>
>       LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length
>
>       Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length
>
>       Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length
>
>
>
>
>
> So perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for h=
im to clarify.
>
> [Bruno] I=E2=80=99ll leave this to Chris.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *
> bruno.decraene@orange.com
> *Sent:* 28 February 2020 14:34
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;
> Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; Peter Psenak
> (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org <lsr-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM
>
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since this is not a
> protocol specific thing.
>
>
>
> I believe the text in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clears
> says what locator block and locator node are. What more details do you
> think are required?
>
>
>
> [Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft could possibly clarify the
> usage of these information/fields by the receiver. Possibly using the sam=
e
> name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID Locator Block length) to ease the references
> between both drafts.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Bruno
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers
> *Sent:* 27 February 2020 22:46
> *To:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> SPRING and LSR WGs,
>
>
>
> I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator bloc=
k
> and locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  See original email below.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > LSR WG,
> >
> > Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the  SRv6
> > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the
> > locator block length and the locator node length.  The text refers to
> > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these
> > concepts.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator
> > node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1
> > which has the following text:
> >
> >     A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the SRv6 SID block
> >     (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operator) and N is the
> >     identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID..
> >
> > I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator
> > block and locator node.
>
> sure, but that would be in the
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol
> specific constructs.
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Ketan,</div><div><br></div><div>See inline [CB].<br><=
/div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_attr">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-IN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2090197595246396153WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Chris,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>You are right in that there is no assumption t=
hat all SRv6 locators in a domain are allocated from the same block. Theref=
ore knowing the blocks used in the domain is useful.</span></p></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>[CB] Since you refer to &quot;blocks&quo=
t; (plural) in this sentence, are you saying that in the scenario where all=
 SRv6 locators in a domain are not allocated from the same block, you would=
 expect different routers in the same domain to advertise different values =
of B and N?=C2=A0 For example, assume we have a network=20
where all SRv6 locators in a domain are not allocated from the same block.=
=C2=A0 Router A advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 2000::/64, =
and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior.=C2=A0=20
Router B advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 3000::/64, and an =
SRv6 End SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A and=
 B advertise as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-T=
LVs ?<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-IN"><div class=3D"gmail-m_2090197595246396153WordSec=
tion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the=
 B and N parts of the locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On t=
he receiver side, the IGP may not really do much with this information, how=
ever
 it enables propagation of this information from all nodes in the network t=
o be advertised out via BGP-LS (or other mechanisms) as part of the topolog=
y feed. Once this is part of the topology feed, it enables use-cases on con=
trollers to perform network wide
 validation of the SRv6 SID block provisioning and can also help in automat=
ion of the security aspects described in
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routi=
ng-header-26#section-5" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote><div>[CB] =
If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anything with B and N, then I thin=
k the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions needs to clarify this.=C2=
=A0 I have a similar observation about Fun. Length and Arg. Length in the=
=20
SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .=C2=A0 As far as I can tell, none of the en=
dpoint behaviors that are currently specified to be carried in ISIS End, En=
d.X, and LAN End.X SIDs sub-TLVs uses an Argument, so there is never a case=
 where an SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value for A=
rg. Length. What should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero value =
of the Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn&#39;t use an argumen=
t?=C2=A0 Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS speaker needs to =
know the Arg. Length ?=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-IN"><div class=3D"gmail-m_2090=
197595246396153WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ketan<span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 02 March 2020 23:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
<a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>; SPRING =
WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Peter Psenak =
(ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsena=
k@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
 Bruno Decraene &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"=
_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ketan,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 loca=
tors used in a domain from a single block is optional.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, assuming for the moment that a network oper=
ator has chosen to allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a singl=
e block, so that there is a well-defined value of B and N across a domain, =
what is the use of having a router
 advertise its own understanding of these two values?=C2=A0 And what is a r=
eceiver supposed to do with this information?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">Hi =
Ketan,</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">=C2=
=A0</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Thanks fort the follow up.</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Clarification inline [Bruno]</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span class=3D"gmail-m_2090197595246396153gmail-m-4664080705648584948spelle=
"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-seri=
f" lang=3D"FR">From</span></b></span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">:</span></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">
 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Chris Bowers<=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a>; SPRING WG List; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psena=
k (ppsenak)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Hi Bruno,<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well described and c=
overed in the net-pgm draft as also the corresponding IGP extensions. Is th=
e question is more about the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part of it (what is no=
t in the block part is in the node part as per the
 text in the net-pgm draft)?<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the foll=
owing:<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Under <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routin=
g-header-26#section-5" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#secti=
on-5</a> =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2</a> =E2=80=A6 look under SRG=
B for SRv6<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bruno]</span><=
span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">To clarify, my =
question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but related to the usa=
ge, by the receiver, of the following piece of information:</span><span lan=
g=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 LB Length: SRv=
6 SID Locator Block length</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 LN Length: SRv=
6 SID Locator Node length</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fun. Length: S=
Rv6 SID Function length</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Arg. Length: S=
Rv6 SID Arguments length</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><s=
pan lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
So perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for him=
 to clarify.<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bruno] I=E2=80=
=99ll leave this to Chris.</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Thanks,<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Ketan<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"=
_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28 February 2020 14:34<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a>; SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Peter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"=
_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">Hi Ketan,</span><span lang=
=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D=
"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"=
 lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr [<a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
Hi Chris,<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since this is not a prot=
ocol specific thing.<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
I believe the text in <span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-p=
rogramming clears says what locator block and locator node are. What more d=
etails do you think are required?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">[Bruno] Speaking as an =
individual, the draft could possibly clarify the usage of these information=
/fields by the receiver. Possibly using the same name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID L=
ocator Block length) to ease the references
 between both drafts.</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</span><span lan=
g=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">--Bruno</span><span lan=
g=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Ketan</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Bowers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 February 2020 22:46<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a>; SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-exten=
sions</span><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
SPRING and LSR WGs,<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator block =
and locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or dr=
aft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.=C2=A0 See original email below.<span lan=
g=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
Thanks,<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
Chris<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D=
"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium =
medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;border-c=
olor:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt">
Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:<br>
&gt; LSR WG,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the=C2=A0 =
SRv6 <br>
&gt; SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the =
<br>
&gt; locator block length and the locator node length.=C2=A0 The text refer=
s to <br>
&gt; [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these=
 <br>
&gt; concepts.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator =
<br>
&gt; node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1 <=
br>
&gt; which has the following text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the =
SRv6 SID block<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operato=
r) and N is the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID=
..<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator <=
br>
&gt; block and locator node.<br>
<br>
sure, but that would be in the <br>
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in <br>
draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol <br>
specific constructs.<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Chris<br>
&gt; <span lang=3D"FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses piece=
s jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees=
 et ne doivent donc<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, expl=
oites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur,=
 veuillez le signaler<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">a l&#39;expediteur et l=
e detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant s=
usceptibles d&#39;alteration,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute re=
sponsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its at=
tachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be pr=
otected by law;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be dist=
ributed, used or copied without authorisation.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received th=
is email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its=
 attachments.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altere=
d, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or fa=
lsified.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.<u></u><u></u=
></span></pre>
</div>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<u></u><u>=
</u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<u></u><=
u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les piec=
es jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;<u></u><u></u>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<u></u><u></u></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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> If we argue this behavior as not violating "extension headers cannot be=
 removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination"

That is not, perhaps unfortunately, what RFC 8200 says.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 05-Mar-20 17:08, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote:
> Hi Jinmei,
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Please check inline below.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of ????
> Sent: 05 March 2020 05:15
> To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; =
Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC a=
nd move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> At Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:17:07 +0000,
>=20
> "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org <ma=
ilto:pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
>> Inline PC1.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Thank you for the clarification.=C2=A0 I'm not sure why you included th=
e expanded processing logic instead of just saying correct or incorrect
>=20
> here:
>=20
> */[KT] I believe Pablo might have done this as a hint on how to look at=
 the processing logic of the PSP flavor in the conjunction with the SID b=
ehavior pseudocode./*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
>> PC1:
>=20
>>=C2=A0
>=20
>> This is the exact processing at S2 combined End (4.1) with PSP (4.16.1=
):
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> ....but I interpret the entire response as my understanding is correct.=

>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Then, going back to the message from Robert:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
>>>> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its=

>=20
>>>> source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet
>=20
>>>> until it has arrived at its ultimate destination".
>=20
>>=C2=A0
>=20
>>> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence.
>=20
>>> Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated*
>=20
>>> packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node
>=20
>>> X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the s=
pecification.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> This explanation is still cryptic to me, but based on the now-hopefully=
-correct understanding of the PSP behavior,
>=20
> - We originally have (T, S1) (S3, S2, S1; SL=3D2) [payload=3Dencapsulat=
ed
>=20
> IPv6 pakcet]
>=20
> =C2=A0 There are 3 nodes in the routing header.
>=20
> - At the node identified by S2 (second node in the routing header), we
>=20
> =C2=A0 remove the routing header, so we have (T, S3) [payload=3Dencapsu=
lated
>=20
> IPv6 pakcet]
>=20
> - Packet arrives at the node identified by S3, the payload is processed=

>=20
> */[KT] This is correct at a high level. The last line is about processi=
ng per the behaviour of the SID S3 =E2=80=93 e.g. when it is End.DT6 it w=
ould be to decap, perform lookup in the VRF associated with the SID and t=
hen forward the inner IPv6 packet./*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> If we argue this behavior as not violating "extension headers cannot be=
 removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination" =
because "segment left" is 0 at that point (and therefore
>=20
> S2 is the "final destination"), that's a very innovative interpretation=
 of the specification (not really surprisingly, given how "innovative" SR=
v6 people are:-).=C2=A0 In fact, with that kind of logic, we could write =
a specification which allows any intermediate node in a routing header de=
creases the segment left to 0 (regardless of the previous value of it) at=
 its own discretion, and then claim it's the final (ultimate) destination=
 and does whatever is allowed for the final destination node.
>=20
> */[KT] This is definitely not the argument. Please check this link for =
the explanation of the logic : /*https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sp=
ring/kV6By4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Overall, it seems so artificial, if not cheating, only for avoiding to =
be told that it violates RFC8200.=C2=A0 The PSP behavior essentially give=
s an intermediate ("penultimate") node in the routing header an option to=
 remove the routing header from the packet.=C2=A0 I can't think of a reas=
on why we can't just say so and say that it updates the corresponding par=
t of RFC8200 accordingly, than for cheaply avoiding the discussions invol=
ved in updates to an existing standard.
>=20
> */[KT] Nothing artificial and no cheating. Things are clear as indicate=
d in the previous link. At least that is what the authors and (in my read=
ing) a significant number of other Spring WG members are saying. Please a=
lso check the following:/*
>=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLB=
o/
>=20
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CmT-8nSZs8O8i9N9dD8gHd6uHA=
o/ */(and the links provided by Martin on his previous email on that same=
 thread)/*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Now, I've noticed an argument whether or not this spec violates/updates=
 RFC8200 isn't important.=C2=A0 In a sense I see the point:
>=20
> what matters is to discuss the effect of the proposed behavior and make=
 sure it doesn't cause unexpected problems; whether it updates the pre-ex=
iting spec is a matter of formality in some sense.=C2=A0 But in this spec=
ific case, I still believe that's a bad move for two reasons:
>=20
> */[KT] I see a significant amount of discussion on the WG to discuss an=
d conclude that there are no technical problems. In that same spirit, let=
 us also look at your =E2=80=9Creasons=E2=80=9D./*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> 1. (seemingly) as a result of trying to insist it's standard
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 compliant, the processing logic becomes unnecessarily cryp=
tic.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 There's essentially no need to decrease 'segment left' and=
 then
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 check if it is 0.=C2=A0 A more explicit condition that it'=
s the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 penultimate node is that 'segment left =3D=3D 1' on receiv=
ing the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 packet; we can simply perform the special PSP behavior fro=
m there.
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 If we're willing to say it updates RFC8200, we can simply =
say the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 penultimate node has an option to remove the routing heade=
r and
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 show the more straightforward logic.
>=20
> */[KT] There is no technical problem being stated here. The logic is no=
t cryptic =E2=80=93 please consider the hint from Pablo above i.e. to loo=
k at the processing as whole. If the pseudocode is complicated for you to=
 consume, then please do refer to the recent text update that make things=
 crystal clear : /*https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net=
work-programming-12#section-4.16.1*//*
>=20
> */=C2=A0/*
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the=

>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its =
SID
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 address.=C2=A0 A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is o=
ne that, as part
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH in=
to the IPv6
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Destination Address and decrements Segments Left value fro=
m one to
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 zero.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The PSP operation only takes place at a penultimate SR Seg=
ment
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Endpoint Node and does not happen at any Transit Node.
>=20
> */=C2=A0/*
>=20
> */And then/*
>=20
> */=C2=A0/*
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 This behavior does not contravene Section=C2=A04 of [RFC82=
00] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8200#section-4> because the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 current destination address of the incoming packet is the =
address of
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the node executing the PSP behavior.
>=20
> */=C2=A0/*
>=20
> */=C2=A0/*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> 2. I'm afraid this would establish an unfortunate precedent for future
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol development to look for a wording loophole in exi=
sting
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 standards and exploit it as an easy shortcut to publish so=
mething
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 possibly controversial.=C2=A0 Just as we saw, even a very =
carefully
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0reviewed document like RFC8200 always has some glitches and=

>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 ambiguities.=C2=A0 If we allow casually exploiting these l=
oopholes for
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the convenience of new protocol designers, more and more p=
eople
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 will follow and we'll eventually have very inconsistent pr=
otocols
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 and, in worse cases, loss of interoperabaility and other h=
arm.=C2=A0 On
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the other hand, we could use this opportunity for a good p=
recedent
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 to show no standard is set in stone and can be updated wit=
h new
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 developments and proper discussions and justifications.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> For this reason, I disagree with this text of
>=20
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 This behavior does not contravene Section 4 of [RFC8200] b=
ecause the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 current destination address of the incoming packet is the =
address of
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the node executing the PSP behavior.
>=20
> */[KT] Again, this is not a technical point. It arises out of our disag=
reement on RFC8200 text./*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> If I were to offer something in order to be hopefully more constructive=
, that would be something like this:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> - Add a tag of "Updates RFC8200 (if approved)"
>=20
> */[KT] There is no case for doing this. Again it is the same disagreeme=
nt on RFC8200 text./*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> - In Section 4.16.1, simply say something like: "A penultimate SR
>=20
> =C2=A0 Segment Node MAY remove the SRH from the IPv6 packet it forwards=
,
>=20
> =C2=A0 even if it is not the final (ultimate) destination in the path
>=20
> =C2=A0 specified in the SRH". (I notice network-programming-12 is alrea=
dy
>=20
> =C2=A0 pretty close to this)
>=20
> */[KT] What is there in the draft already is a much better text IMHO./*=

>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> - Perhaps change the pseudo code as follows
>=20
> =C2=A0 S11.1=C2=A0=C2=A0 If (Segments Left =3D=3D 1) { /* meaning this =
is a penultimate node */
>=20
> =C2=A0 S11.2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Update IPv6 DA with Segment =
List[0]
>=20
> =C2=A0 S12.3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Update the Next Header field in t=
he preceding header to the
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 Next Header value of the SRH
>=20
> =C2=A0 S12.4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Decrease the IPv6 header Payload =
Length by the Hdr Ext Len
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 value of the SRH
>=20
> =C2=A0 S12.5.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Remove the SRH from the IPv6 exte=
nsion header chain
>=20
> =C2=A0 S12.6.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Go to S15
>=20
> =C2=A0 S12.7.=C2=A0 }
>=20
> */[KT] Please look at the processing pseudocode for a SID behavior and =
the PSP (as well as other non-PSP) flavors as a whole. At the end, any im=
plementer is free to code and implement the logic in their own way as lon=
g as the behaviour and result is consistent./*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> - Clarify it's an update to RFC8200, e.g. as follows:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This behavior formally updates Section 4 of [RFC8200=
], which does
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 not allow deleting an extension header until the pac=
ket arrives at
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the destination.=C2=A0 While the literal text of RFC=
8200 could read as
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 if the deletion were allowed for an intermediate nod=
e specified in
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a routing header, this document takes a safer and ti=
ghter
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 interpretation as described in [the expected draft b=
y Ron here]
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and updates it.
>=20
> */[KT] I don=E2=80=99t need to repeat why not required =E2=80=A6/*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The update is believed to be sufficiently safe and w=
orthwhile:
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [Justifications here: why we need PSP; explain it do=
esn't break
>=20
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PMTUD; add considerations on AH, etc]
>=20
> */[KT] These are covered already. Can you please re-check /*https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12#section-4.=
16.1
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Like Brian's proposed text, whether such an update is acceptable is a d=
ifferent question.=C2=A0 But it's at least a fair game to me.=C2=A0 I'd s=
eriously consider the justifications, and, depending on its details, it's=
 quite possible that it's something I can support.
>=20
> */[KT] Thanks for your review and feedback. I can only hope to have bee=
n able to help clarify and look forward to your support./*
>=20
> */=C2=A0/*
>=20
> */Thanks,/*
>=20
> */Ketan/*
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> (Whether we really need such a hack as PSP may also be a question, as s=
ome others have questioned.=C2=A0 It seems cleaner to me if we could avoi=
d the hack in the first place, but I guess I don't have enough knowledge =
to judge how badly it is needed and whether there's really no "cleaner" a=
lternative, so I wouldn't comment on it here).
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> --
>=20
> JINMEI, Tatuya
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>=20
> ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>=20
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


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From: Alex Bogdanov <bogdanov@google.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 15:55:02 -0800
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To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>,  SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
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--00000000000097e2a105a02444dc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi,

To add my 2c, I am OK with the declaration of consensus for this
draft. This draft is >2y old and had been the subject of extensive
collaborations on the mailing list, many revisions, many working group
meetings and last call 3 months ago.

I don't think the original email is the right way to express
disagreement(we have a process for that). I also fear that these types of
exchanges are discouraging participation in open technical debates whereas
what we should be doing is encouraging innovation and making progress.

I personally want to thank Martin and Bruno for the diligent and effective
work they've been doing on this draft(and many others) whilst being short
handed. Kudos!


Cheers,

-- Alex

Alex Bogdanov | Strategic NetEng | bogdanov@ <bogdanov@google.com> | Cell:
650-314-8196


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:

> Stewart, et.al.,
>
> First, there has been some ambivalence regarding what the issue with
> an AD taking this type of decission.
>
> - there is no doubt that an AD may take this decision, module enough
>    involvement in the wg and gi=C3=B3dd understanding of the issues
>
> - it might be discussed if the right decision were taken, from my
>    point of view (personal opinion) I can live with this decision
>
> Comment on Stewart's comment inline.
>
>
> On 03/03/2020 20:32, Stewart Bryant wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:43, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>> =EF=BB=BFI have no information about the situation but I do not under=
stand why
> an AD would be declaring consensus in any case -
> >>> that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.  see RFC 2418
> section 3.3
> >>
> >> The only active/available WG chair was a co-author of this draft.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Sander
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > As a WGC that has been in a position where the chairs had a CoI, I(we)
> asked the WG Secretary to manage the document, and that is what other WGs
> do. Look at the DetNet data plane drafts as an example. That means that t=
he
> decision is taken at the lowest level and leaves the AD continue in the
> oversight role.
>
> Yes - a much better practice. You could also appoint working group chair
> from another group as "shepherd" and explicitly delegate the task to
> call consensus after the wglc.
>
> I think that PALS did this for me once when both chairs were draft
> authors.
>
> /Loa
>
> >
> > Anyway from the discussion on the list this probably need to go for
> review by the other two RTG ADs to check that they are happy with the
> decision or to recommend some other action.
> >
> > - Stewart
> >
> >
>
> --
>
>
> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> Senior MPLS Expert
> Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>
>

--00000000000097e2a105a02444dc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>To add my 2c, I am OK with the decl=
aration of consensus for this draft.=C2=A0This draft is &gt;2y old and had =
been the subject of extensive collaborations=C2=A0on the mailing list, many=
 revisions, many working group meetings and last call 3 months ago.=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think the original email is the right w=
ay to express disagreement(we have a process for that). I also fear that th=
ese types of exchanges are discouraging participation in open technical deb=
ates whereas what we should be doing is encouraging innovation and making p=
rogress.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div>I personally want to thank Mar=
tin and Bruno for the diligent and effective work=C2=A0they&#39;ve been doi=
ng on this draft(and many others) whilst being short handed. Kudos!=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br clear=3D"all"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></div><div>-- Alex</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:=
19.5px;border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,=
37);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px"><br><font color=3D"#000000">Alex Bogdan=
ov |</font></span><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;line-height:19.5px;border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-sty=
le:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=
=A0Strategic NetEng | <a href=3D"mailto:bogdanov@google.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bogdanov@</a></span><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll;line-height:19.5px;border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-co=
lor:rgb(0,153,57);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0| Cell: 650-314-819=
6</span></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Loa Andersso=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Stewart, <a href=3D"http://et.a=
l" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">et.al</a>.,<br>
<br>
First, there has been some ambivalence regarding what the issue with<br>
an AD taking this type of decission.<br>
<br>
- there is no doubt that an AD may take this decision, module enough<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0involvement in the wg and gi=C3=B3dd understanding of the issu=
es<br>
<br>
- it might be discussed if the right decision were taken, from my<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0point of view (personal opinion) I can live with this decision=
<br>
<br>
Comment on Stewart&#39;s comment inline.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 03/03/2020 20:32, Stewart Bryant wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:43, Sander Steffann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:san=
der@steffann.nl" target=3D"_blank">sander@steffann.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BFI have no information about the situation but I do no=
t understand why an AD would be declaring consensus in any case -<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; that is normally the responsibility of WG chairs.=C2=A0 see RF=
C 2418 section 3.3<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The only active/available WG chair was a co-author of this draft.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Sander<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As a WGC that has been in a position where the chairs had a CoI, I(we)=
 asked the WG Secretary to manage the document, and that is what other WGs =
do. Look at the DetNet data plane drafts as an example. That means that the=
 decision is taken at the lowest level and leaves the AD continue in the ov=
ersight role.<br>
<br>
Yes - a much better practice. You could also appoint working group chair <b=
r>
from another group as &quot;shepherd&quot; and explicitly delegate the task=
 to<br>
call consensus after the wglc.<br>
<br>
I think that PALS did this for me once when both chairs were draft<br>
authors.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Anyway from the discussion on the list this probably need to go for re=
view by the other two RTG ADs to check that they are happy with the decisio=
n or to recommend some other action.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Stewart<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank"=
>loa@pi.nu</a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert<br>
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pho=
ne: +46 739 81 21 64<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000097e2a105a02444dc--


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To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case--benifit of SRv6
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 05:14:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case--benifit of SRv6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DUTF-8"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }p { margin-top: 0px; margin-botto=
m: 0px; }div.FoxDiv20200306141618104819 { }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-=
family: 'Microsoft YaHei UI'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</st=
yle></head><body>=0A<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>=0A<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"e=
dit" spidmax=3D"1026" ></o:shapedefaults>=0A</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte =
mso 9]><xml>=0A<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">=0A<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" da=
ta=3D"1" ></o:idmap>=0A</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->=0A<div><span></s=
pan><div style=3D"font-family: 'Microsoft YaHei UI', Tahoma; line-height: =
normal;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0=
cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Hi,<span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Microsoft YaHei UI', sans-serif;"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; mar=
gin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b=
r></p></div><div style=3D"font-family: 'Microsoft YaHei UI', Tahoma; line-=
height: normal;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin=
-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">As a =
newcomer to the IETF, I&nbsp;learned a lot form&nbsp;the latest technical&=
nbsp;discussions and process discussions&nbsp;via&nbsp;the&nbsp;mailing&nb=
sp;lists.Thanks to the mailing lists and people who propose really good te=
ch considerations.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-ri=
ght: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman=
', serif;">&nbsp;</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; ma=
rgin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">W=
ell, I agree with Alex, we should focus on the open technical debates, whi=
le the process things will be handled by the Chairs, ADs and IESG or even =
IAB maybe.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm=
; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif=
;">&nbsp;</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin-lef=
t: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Thanks fo=
r providing a good way to discuss technologies and hope we can focus on in=
novation.</p></div></div>=0A<div><br></div><hr style=3D"width: 210px; heig=
ht: 1px; display: none;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=3D"left">=0A<d=
iv><span></span></div>=0A<blockquote style=3D"margin-Top: 0px; margin-Bott=
om: 0px; margin-Left: 0.5em"><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"FoxDiv20200=
306141618104819"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"=
>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 1=
2pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0c=
m 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><=
b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-ser=
if">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]=0A<b>On Beh=
alf Of </b>Alex Bogdanov<br>=0A<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 6, 2020 7:55 AM<=
br>=0A<b>To:</b> Loa Andersson &lt;loa@pi.nu&gt;<br>=0A<b>Cc:</b> Stewart =
Bryant &lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;; SPRING WG List &lt;spring@ietf.or=
g&gt;; Sander Steffann &lt;sander@steffann.nl&gt;; IETF &lt;ietf@ietf.org&=
gt;<br>=0A<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Resignation request<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-si=
ze: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=0A=
<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-siz=
e: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>=0A<div=
>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 1=
2pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=0A</div=
>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font=
-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">To add my 2c, I am OK=
 with the declaration of consensus for this draft.&nbsp;This draft is &gt;=
2y old and had been the subject of extensive collaborations&nbsp;on the ma=
iling list, many revisions, many working group meetings and last call 3 mo=
nths ago.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New=
 Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'T=
imes New Roman', serif;">I don't think the original email is the right way=
 to express disagreement(we have a process for that). I also fear that the=
se types of exchanges are discouraging participation in open technical deb=
ates whereas what we should be doing is=0A encouraging innovation and maki=
ng progress.<o:p></o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Ro=
man', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">I personally want to thank Martin and Bruno for the =
diligent and effective work&nbsp;they've been doing on this draft(and many=
 others) whilst being short handed. Kudos!&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001=
pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0c=
m 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Cheer=
s,<br clear=3D"all">=0A<o:p></o:p></p>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<=
div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; fo=
nt-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<di=
v>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">-- Alex<o:p></o:p></p>=0A</d=
iv>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; fo=
nt-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;border:solid #D50F25 1.5pt;padding:2.=
0pt"><br>=0A<span style=3D"color:black">Alex Bogdanov |</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;border:soli=
d #3369E8 1.5pt;padding:2.0pt">&nbsp;Strategic NetEng |=0A<a href=3D"mailt=
o:bogdanov@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decora=
tion: underline;">bogdanov@</a></span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;border:solid #009939 1.5pt;padding:2.0pt">=
&nbsp;| Cell: 650-314-8196</span><o:p></o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div=
>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=
=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', seri=
f;">On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:30 PM Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa=
@pi.nu" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">loa@pi.nu</a>&g=
t; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote style=3D"border-style: non=
e none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-widt=
h: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm; m=
argin-top: 0px;">=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001=
pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Stewart, <a h=
ref=3D"http://et.al" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati=
on: underline;">=0Aet.al</a>.,<br>=0A<br>=0AFirst, there has been some amb=
ivalence regarding what the issue with<br>=0Aan AD taking this type of dec=
ission.<br>=0A<br>=0A- there is no doubt that an AD may take this decision=
, module enough<br>=0A&nbsp; &nbsp;involvement in the wg and gi=C3=B3dd un=
derstanding of the issues<br>=0A<br>=0A- it might be discussed if the righ=
t decision were taken, from my<br>=0A&nbsp; &nbsp;point of view (personal =
opinion) I can live with this decision<br>=0A<br>=0AComment on Stewart's c=
omment inline.<br>=0A<br>=0A<br>=0AOn 03/03/2020 20:32, Stewart Bryant wro=
te:<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt;&gt; On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:43, Sander=
 Steffann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sander@steffann.nl" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">sander@steffann.nl</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>=0A&gt;&gt;<br>=0A&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>=0A&gt;&gt;<br>=0A&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 <span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">=EF=BB=BF</span=
>I have no information about the situation but I do not understand why an =
AD would be declaring consensus in any case -<br>=0A&gt;&gt;&gt; that is n=
ormally the responsibility of WG chairs.&nbsp; see RFC 2418 section 3.3<br=
>=0A&gt;&gt;<br>=0A&gt;&gt; The only active/available WG chair was a co-au=
thor of this draft.<br>=0A&gt;&gt;<br>=0A&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>=0A&gt;&gt; S=
ander<br>=0A&gt;&gt;<br>=0A&gt;&gt;<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; As =
a WGC that has been in a position where the chairs had a CoI, I(we) asked =
the WG Secretary to manage the document, and that is what other WGs do. Lo=
ok at the DetNet data plane drafts as an example. That means that the deci=
sion is taken at the lowest level=0A and leaves the AD continue in the ove=
rsight role.<br>=0A<br>=0AYes - a much better practice. You could also app=
oint working group chair <br>=0Afrom another group as "shepherd" and expli=
citly delegate the task to<br>=0Acall consensus after the wglc.<br>=0A<br>=
=0AI think that PALS did this for me once when both chairs were draft<br>=
=0Aauthors.<br>=0A<br>=0A/Loa<br>=0A<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; Anyway from th=
e discussion on the list this probably need to go for review by the other =
two RTG ADs to check that they are happy with the decision or to recommend=
 some other action.<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; - Stewart<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt=
; <br>=0A<br>=0A-- <br>=0A<br>=0A<br>=0ALoa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-deco=
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 Dragon Consulting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;phone: +=
46 739 81 21 64<o:p></o:p></p>=0A</blockquote>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div><=
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------=_001_NextPart415024488535_=------


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:31:47 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2z2s92yitCC0eLrNO3dXe_EarRSUZq8GmJ=QRdZ59d0ag@mail.gmail.com>
To: "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>,  "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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Subject: [spring] Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
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On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 05:37, <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Fernando,
<snip>
>
> - Read the mailing list and you will see that everyone do not share your =
opinion. So at least one person is wrong. I think that it would help if eve=
ryone, including you, could consider that they/you _may_ be wrong, at least=
 to better understand the comments been made by others.  And possibly the t=
ext from RFC 8200 is not clear, but this is what we have. And this is the t=
ext to use to support the claim that this text is violated.

The final interpretation and intent of text in RFC8200 should be up to
6man, not SPRING, when there is ambiguity and dispute, as 6man is the
ultimate design authority for IPv6.

RFC5704, "Uncoordinated Protocol Development Considered Harmful":

" In particular, the
   IAB considers it an essential principle of the protocol development
   process that only one SDO maintains design authority for a given
   protocol, with that SDO having ultimate authority over the allocation
   of protocol parameter code-points and over defining the intended
   semantics, interpretation, and actions associated with those code-
   points."

IETF WGs would qualify as standards development organisations.

Those of us in 6man during the clarifications in this area of RFC8200
know the intent. It was specifically about modification of the EH
chain, and was in response to the
'draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion' Internet Draft.






> - Why have _you_ filled an errata against RFC 8200, in order to change th=
e technical content of this section, if you don't agree that one may red " =
Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" as the IPv6 address present i=
n the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header been received by the End=
 node (or even sent by the source node)
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933
>
> > > At minimum, I think that we can agree that there is another reading, =
as expressed by other WG participants, and hence I disagree with "of course=
".
> >
> > No, I argue that there is not.IN fact, I argue that folks have been
> > following that strategy for way too long, and that's quite frustrating.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Personally, I understand "Destination Address" as "Destination Addres=
s field of the IPv6 header." as indicated explicitly in the text quoted.
> >
> > The quoted text is from RFC8200. In the context of RFC8200 the
> > Destination Address can only contain the ultimate destination of the
> > packet. Where's the ambiguity?
> >
> > And let me ask you, as chair, another question, that will lead you to
> > the same place: is IPv6 and end to end protocol?
>
> That's not a question for a spring chair to answer.
> I'm reading the sentence in RFC8200. If we can't agree on the meaning of =
this explicit sentence, I don't think that discussing philosophical r relig=
ious question is going to help.
>
> > The fact that I may claim that RFC8200 contains a receipe for BBQ does
> > not actually mean that that's the case.
>
> You do realize that your above sentence also applies to yourself? So how =
is this helping to progress?
> Can we please focus on the RFC8200 sentence?  I'm really trying to unders=
tand your point.
> Let's stick to the texts of documents.
>
>
> >
> > > I'm fine with having this clarified with 6MAND chairs and AD. That be=
en said, the Internet AD would have an opportunity to DISCUSS this.
> >
> > For the record, I think this is a major issue that should be cleared
> > before it can be claimed that there is consensus to request publication
> > of this document.
>
> OK, this is recorded.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> does not specify any routing header type, and hence the meaning is
> > >> unambiguous (there's no destination other than the final destination=
 of
> > >> the packet).
> > >>
> > >> This is of course in line with IPv6 being and end-to-end protocol, a=
nd
> > >> crucial for other related mechanisms to work as expected (such as IP=
sec
> > >> AH). Please also check: draft-smith-6man-in-flight-eh-insertion-harm=
ful.
> > >>
> > >> So, in order to proceed with the document, there are multiple option=
s
> > >> forward:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Just remove the corresponding text/behavior
> > >
> > > That is indeed one option. But as of today, this is not my assumption=
.
> > >
> > >> 2) Implement a similar mechanism in an RFC8200-compliant manner (e.g=
.,
> > >> re-encap)
> > >
> > > SRH insert is out of scope of this specification. So yes, IPv6 encaps=
 is used.
> > > We are talking SRH removal. I'm assuming that you are referring to PS=
P. My understanding is that this function (PSP) is to distribute the (forwa=
rding plane) load between the PSP and the USP. In a way similar to MPLS PHP=
. But in all cases, this is not about SRH insertion.
> >
> > It's about SRH removal, which is also forbiden by RFC8200.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> 3) Do the necessary standards work to update RFC8200, such that it
> > >> allows this sort of behavior, and only ship the network-programming
> > >> draft for publication when at least 6man has consensus to proceed on
> > >> that path.
> > >
> > > Not the preferred path as of today.
> >
> > Yes, it should be evident that it seems the preferred path has been
> > (starting with EH insertion at the time) to circumvent existing
> > specifications.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> P.S.: I will go through the document once again... but the same
> > >> reasoning should be applied to any EH-insertion/removal at a place o=
ther
> > >> than the source of the packet or its final destination.
> > >
> > > It looks to me that SRH insertion and SRH removal are to be treated d=
ifferently.
> >
> > I don't see how or why.
>
> SRH insertion is done by a node, on the path, which is not the destinatio=
n of the IPv6 addresses.
> SRH removal is done by a node which is receiving the packet because it's =
IPv6 address is in the destination of the IPv6 packet.
>
> > Both violate the same requirement in RFC8200.
>
> We are not having a conversation, so let's not repeats the same point aga=
in and again.
>
> Your opinion has been noted. So does opinions on this same point expresse=
d by other wg participants.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > Fernando Gont
> > SI6 Networks
> > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
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> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


From nobody Fri Mar  6 01:26:06 2020
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Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: [spring] Status of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
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Marting & Bruno,

May I ask what's the status of this I-D?  -

On one hand, both of you declared consensus to move it forward. On 
another hand, the authors keep making changes to address comments (good) 
so what the wg will ship will be different from what the document on 
which you claimed consensus. Besides, the datatracker lists the document 
as "in WGLC".

So:
What's the status of this document?
And.. are you planning to do a second WGLC?


Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, bruno.decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
CC: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
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Subject: Re: [spring] Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
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Hi Mark,

With all due respect, from what I have read, I do not see how SPRING, or th=
e authors of the network programming draft are interpreting the "intent" of=
 the text in RFC8200. The text as written is very clear; there is no interp=
retation needed other than reading the plain English which clearly says the=
 node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header may pr=
ocess, insert, or delete Extension headers (other than Hop-by-Hop Options h=
eader). It seems to me to set a very bad precedence if we now expect non-au=
thors of an original Internet standard to have to interpret the intent of t=
he original authors rather than simply read the text as published, especial=
ly in the case of an Internet standard.

Respectfully,

Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 1:32 AM
To: bruno.decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>=
; 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spr=
ing-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: [spring] WGLC=
 - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 05:37, <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Fernando,
<snip>
>
> - Read the mailing list and you will see that everyone do not share your =
opinion. So at least one person is wrong. I think that it would help if eve=
ryone, including you, could consider that they/you _may_ be wrong, at least=
 to better understand the comments been made by others.  And possibly the t=
ext from RFC 8200 is not clear, but this is what we have. And this is the t=
ext to use to support the claim that this text is violated.

The final interpretation and intent of text in RFC8200 should be up to 6man=
, not SPRING, when there is ambiguity and dispute, as 6man is the ultimate =
design authority for IPv6.

RFC5704, "Uncoordinated Protocol Development Considered Harmful":

" In particular, the
   IAB considers it an essential principle of the protocol development
   process that only one SDO maintains design authority for a given
   protocol, with that SDO having ultimate authority over the allocation
   of protocol parameter code-points and over defining the intended
   semantics, interpretation, and actions associated with those code-
   points."

IETF WGs would qualify as standards development organisations.

Those of us in 6man during the clarifications in this area of RFC8200 know =
the intent. It was specifically about modification of the EH chain, and was=
 in response to the 'draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion' Internet =
Draft.






> - Why have _you_ filled an errata against RFC 8200, in order to change=20
> the technical content of this section, if you don't agree that one may=20
> red " Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" as the IPv6=20
> address present in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header=20
> been received by the End node (or even sent by the source node)
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> rfc-editor.org%2Ferrata%2Feid5933&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%
> 40futurewei.com%7C3a9e583a99324ab04a0708d7c19825be%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189
> c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637190731541021508&amp;sdata=3DbybICm4YFIPalNf
> qYea%2FEGXVl5sYj6cRSd0VXZsnpww%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>
> > > At minimum, I think that we can agree that there is another reading, =
as expressed by other WG participants, and hence I disagree with "of course=
".
> >
> > No, I argue that there is not.IN fact, I argue that folks have been=20
> > following that strategy for way too long, and that's quite frustrating.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Personally, I understand "Destination Address" as "Destination Addres=
s field of the IPv6 header." as indicated explicitly in the text quoted.
> >
> > The quoted text is from RFC8200. In the context of RFC8200 the=20
> > Destination Address can only contain the ultimate destination of the=20
> > packet. Where's the ambiguity?
> >
> > And let me ask you, as chair, another question, that will lead you=20
> > to the same place: is IPv6 and end to end protocol?
>
> That's not a question for a spring chair to answer.
> I'm reading the sentence in RFC8200. If we can't agree on the meaning of =
this explicit sentence, I don't think that discussing philosophical r relig=
ious question is going to help.
>
> > The fact that I may claim that RFC8200 contains a receipe for BBQ=20
> > does not actually mean that that's the case.
>
> You do realize that your above sentence also applies to yourself? So how =
is this helping to progress?
> Can we please focus on the RFC8200 sentence?  I'm really trying to unders=
tand your point.
> Let's stick to the texts of documents.
>
>
> >
> > > I'm fine with having this clarified with 6MAND chairs and AD. That be=
en said, the Internet AD would have an opportunity to DISCUSS this.
> >
> > For the record, I think this is a major issue that should be cleared=20
> > before it can be claimed that there is consensus to request=20
> > publication of this document.
>
> OK, this is recorded.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> does not specify any routing header type, and hence the meaning=20
> > >> is unambiguous (there's no destination other than the final=20
> > >> destination of the packet).
> > >>
> > >> This is of course in line with IPv6 being and end-to-end=20
> > >> protocol, and crucial for other related mechanisms to work as=20
> > >> expected (such as IPsec AH). Please also check: draft-smith-6man-in-=
flight-eh-insertion-harmful.
> > >>
> > >> So, in order to proceed with the document, there are multiple=20
> > >> options
> > >> forward:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Just remove the corresponding text/behavior
> > >
> > > That is indeed one option. But as of today, this is not my assumption=
.
> > >
> > >> 2) Implement a similar mechanism in an RFC8200-compliant manner=20
> > >> (e.g.,
> > >> re-encap)
> > >
> > > SRH insert is out of scope of this specification. So yes, IPv6 encaps=
 is used.
> > > We are talking SRH removal. I'm assuming that you are referring to PS=
P. My understanding is that this function (PSP) is to distribute the (forwa=
rding plane) load between the PSP and the USP. In a way similar to MPLS PHP=
. But in all cases, this is not about SRH insertion.
> >
> > It's about SRH removal, which is also forbiden by RFC8200.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> 3) Do the necessary standards work to update RFC8200, such that=20
> > >> it allows this sort of behavior, and only ship the=20
> > >> network-programming draft for publication when at least 6man has=20
> > >> consensus to proceed on that path.
> > >
> > > Not the preferred path as of today.
> >
> > Yes, it should be evident that it seems the preferred path has been=20
> > (starting with EH insertion at the time) to circumvent existing=20
> > specifications.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> P.S.: I will go through the document once again... but the same=20
> > >> reasoning should be applied to any EH-insertion/removal at a=20
> > >> place other than the source of the packet or its final destination.
> > >
> > > It looks to me that SRH insertion and SRH removal are to be treated d=
ifferently.
> >
> > I don't see how or why.
>
> SRH insertion is done by a node, on the path, which is not the destinatio=
n of the IPv6 addresses.
> SRH removal is done by a node which is receiving the packet because it's =
IPv6 address is in the destination of the IPv6 packet.
>
> > Both violate the same requirement in RFC8200.
>
> We are not having a conversation, so let's not repeats the same point aga=
in and again.
>
> Your opinion has been noted. So does opinions on this same point expresse=
d by other wg participants.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > Fernando Gont
> > SI6 Networks
> > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:36:09 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MMFC3_9roCYtZSwmCO5h5OE3f2xSHp_w_b=VngXuDCcTGA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/BORxqBOwytKHTiJb-6pfEskeApA>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi Andrew,

Well my point was that SR-MPLS with IPv6 has been supported by perhaps the
same vendor you have in mind .. the same who proposed SR ... back in 2015.
Sure it does not cover all platforms, but I guess this is pretty normal
for any vendor.

To the best of my knowledge they have no platform/software where they would
ship SRv6 before shipping SR-MPLS with IPv6 (at least with one IGP
extensions) so this is quite contrary to your claim made below.

Thx,
R.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 2:51 AM Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Robert =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> When I am told by a vendor =E2=80=93 explicitly =E2=80=93 with no ambigui=
ty =E2=80=93 that on
> certain platforms =E2=80=93 they will never support IPv6 in the context o=
f SR-MPLS
> on certain platforms =E2=80=93 and it was SRv6 or nothing if I wanted SR =
 =E2=80=93 then =E2=80=93
> yes =E2=80=93 I am being pushed in a particular direction =E2=80=93 witho=
ut question.  For
> now =E2=80=93 I will refrain from naming said vendor =E2=80=93 but they a=
re free to raise
> their hands and own up to it if they choose to do so
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, 5 March 2020 at 01:04
> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc: *"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <
> ddukes@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Martin Vigoureux =
<
> martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
>
>
> > When a vendor is pushing me to implement a technology
>
>
>
> Last time I checked SRv6 is not enabled by default by any code base. What
> type of "vendor push" are you referring to ? Maybe you can share which
> vendor is pushing you with such strong push that you can not resist ?
>
>
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>

--00000000000027509505a0324120
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Andrew,<div><br></div><div>Well my poi=
nt was that SR-MPLS with IPv6 has been supported by perhaps the same vendor=
 you have in mind .. the same who proposed SR ... back in 2015. Sure it doe=
s not cover all platforms, but I guess this is pretty normal for=C2=A0any v=
endor.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>To the best of my knowledge they have=
 no platform/software where they would ship SRv6 before shipping SR-MPLS wi=
th IPv6 (at least with one IGP extensions) so this is quite contrary=C2=A0t=
o your claim made below.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>R.</=
div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 2:51 AM Andrew Alston &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alst=
on@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-KE">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert =E2=80=93
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When I am told by a vendor =E2=
=80=93 explicitly =E2=80=93 with no ambiguity =E2=80=93 that on certain pla=
tforms =E2=80=93 they will never support IPv6 in the context of SR-MPLS on =
certain platforms =E2=80=93 and it was SRv6
 or nothing if I wanted SR =C2=A0=E2=80=93 then =E2=80=93 yes =E2=80=93 I a=
m being pushed in a particular direction =E2=80=93 without question.=C2=A0 =
For now =E2=80=93 I will refrain from naming said vendor =E2=80=93 but they=
 are free to raise their hands and own up to it if they choose to do so<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span><=
/b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Robert Raszuk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 5 March 2020 at 01:04<br>
<b>To: </b>Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Joel M. Halpern&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalper=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Darren Dukes (d=
dukes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">dduk=
es@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin Vigoureux &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:martin.vigoureux@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.vigoureux@nokia.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt; When a vendor is pushing me to implement a tech=
nology=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Last time I checked SRv6 is not enabled by default b=
y any code base. What type of &quot;vendor push&quot; are you referring to =
? Maybe you can share which vendor is pushing you with such strong push tha=
t you can not resist ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<br>
R.</p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:no=
ne;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0c=
m 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</div>

--00000000000027509505a0324120--


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To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From nobody Fri Mar  6 13:49:27 2020
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From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 13:48:47 -0800
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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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At Thu, 5 Mar 2020 04:08:28 +0000,
"Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> If we argue this behavior as not violating "extension headers cannot be r=
emoved from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination" beca=
use "segment left" is 0 at that point (and therefore
> S2 is the "final destination"), that's a very innovative interpretation o=
f the specification (not really surprisingly, given how "innovative" SRv6 p=
eople are:-).  In fact, with that kind of logic, we could write a specifica=
tion which allows any intermediate node in a routing header decreases the s=
egment left to 0 (regardless of the previous value of it) at its own discre=
tion, and then claim it's the final (ultimate) destination and does whateve=
r is allowed for the final destination node.
>
> [KT] This is definitely not the argument. Please check this link for the =
explanation of the logic : https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/kV6=
By4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/

This link's explanation is that RFC8200 does NOT mean "extension
headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its
ultimate destination" (and therefore PSP doesn't violate it), isn't
it?  Then please remember the context of this conversation - it
started with this comment by Robert:

>> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:

>> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left
>> its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a
>> packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination".

>> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this
>> sentence.

And I wondered about the logic how "it would *still* be not violate the
RFC".  So this link's explanation isn't relevant to this specific
discussion.

As for that link's explanation, I already explained why that
interpretation doesn't make sense, probably several times, so I won't
repeat it again.  I know not everyone agrees with my explanation, and
I'm pretty sure no further explanation can change the mind of people
who firmly believe this link's argument, so there's no need for
repeating the position.

I guess that's the same for the rest of your response (sorry for not
addressing these one by one but).  I knew not everyone would
agree/support my arguments and suggestions.  From your response, it
looks like I already made my points clear enough, you understood them
correctly, and still disagreed with those.  At this point, I suspect
we'll just have to agree to disagree than wasting everyone's time to
keep making essentially the same points again and again.

I guess the only feasible next move of mine is to bring my points to
whatever next round of the process (another WGLC or IETF LC).

--
JINMEI, Tatuya


From nobody Fri Mar  6 14:37:50 2020
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 23:37:37 +0100
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To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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--00000000000060c30905a0374db9
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Dear Jinmei-san,

Thank you for your efforts to explain the spirit of RFC8200. I think we all
agree now that those who worked on IPv6 from the start by ultimate
destination consider either the destination which src host's socket puts in
the packet or (which I admit I never realized before this thread) the
*final* source routed node.

But in the same time I hear from both SR folks as well as 6man AD that the
current language of RFC8200 is purposely left to only say that only pure
transit nodes can not mess with the the IPv6 headers in any way while in
the same time node which address (/128 or less) is verbatim placed in
destination address field of the outermost IPv6 header can.

In that way I stated that PSP is compliant with current language of
RFC8200.

I do not know if this is compliant with the IPv6 architecture spirit, but
when we process drafts which refer to prior RFCs we must base them on the
actual text and not the intentions of those who wrote it.

So while we are at it what puzzles me more now is to clearly understand
under what precise conditions the actual SRH insertion can take place since
the advice from IPv6 community was to move it to a different draft. One was
clearly articulated - assure the packets will not get dropped due to such
SRH insertion. Valid. Is there something more ?

Procedurally I understand that as long as this new spinned off draft
updates RFC8200 we should be all ok. Is this a correct assumption ?

Many thx,
Robert.


On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:48 PM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinme=
i@wide.ad.jp> wrote:

> At Thu, 5 Mar 2020 04:08:28 +0000,
> "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> > If we argue this behavior as not violating "extension headers cannot be
> removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination"
> because "segment left" is 0 at that point (and therefore
> > S2 is the "final destination"), that's a very innovative interpretation
> of the specification (not really surprisingly, given how "innovative" SRv=
6
> people are:-).  In fact, with that kind of logic, we could write a
> specification which allows any intermediate node in a routing header
> decreases the segment left to 0 (regardless of the previous value of it) =
at
> its own discretion, and then claim it's the final (ultimate) destination
> and does whatever is allowed for the final destination node.
> >
> > [KT] This is definitely not the argument. Please check this link for th=
e
> explanation of the logic :
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/kV6By4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/
>
> This link's explanation is that RFC8200 does NOT mean "extension
> headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its
> ultimate destination" (and therefore PSP doesn't violate it), isn't
> it?  Then please remember the context of this conversation - it
> started with this comment by Robert:
>
> >> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:
>
> >> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left
> >> its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a
> >> packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination".
>
> >> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this
> >> sentence.
>
> And I wondered about the logic how "it would *still* be not violate the
> RFC".  So this link's explanation isn't relevant to this specific
> discussion.
>
> As for that link's explanation, I already explained why that
> interpretation doesn't make sense, probably several times, so I won't
> repeat it again.  I know not everyone agrees with my explanation, and
> I'm pretty sure no further explanation can change the mind of people
> who firmly believe this link's argument, so there's no need for
> repeating the position.
>
> I guess that's the same for the rest of your response (sorry for not
> addressing these one by one but).  I knew not everyone would
> agree/support my arguments and suggestions.  From your response, it
> looks like I already made my points clear enough, you understood them
> correctly, and still disagreed with those.  At this point, I suspect
> we'll just have to agree to disagree than wasting everyone's time to
> keep making essentially the same points again and again.
>
> I guess the only feasible next move of mine is to bring my points to
> whatever next round of the process (another WGLC or IETF LC).
>
> --
> JINMEI, Tatuya
>

--00000000000060c30905a0374db9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Jinmei-san,<div><br></div><div>Thank you for your eff=
orts to explain the spirit of RFC8200. I think we all agree now that those =
who worked on IPv6 from the start by ultimate destination consider either t=
he destination which src host&#39;s socket puts in the packet or (which I a=
dmit I never realized before this thread) the *final* source routed node.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>But in the same time I hear from both SR fo=
lks as well as 6man AD that=C2=A0the current language of RFC8200 is purpose=
ly=C2=A0left to only say that only pure transit=C2=A0nodes can not mess wit=
h the the IPv6 headers in any way while in the same time node which address=
 (/128 or less) is verbatim placed in destination address field of the oute=
rmost IPv6 header can.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>In that way I stated =
that PSP is compliant=C2=A0with current language of RFC8200.=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I do not know if this is compliant=C2=A0with the IPv6 arch=
itecture spirit, but when=C2=A0we process drafts which refer to prior RFCs =
we must base them on the actual text and not the intentions of those who wr=
ote it.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So while we are at it what puzzles m=
e more now is to clearly understand under what precise conditions the actua=
l SRH insertion can take place since the advice from IPv6 community was to =
move it to a different draft. One was clearly articulated - assure the pack=
ets will not get dropped due to such SRH insertion. Valid. Is there somethi=
ng more ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Procedurally I understand that as =
long as this new spinned off draft updates RFC8200 we should be all ok. Is =
this a correct assumption ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Many thx,</div><=
div>Robert.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:48 PM =E7=A5=9E=
=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp" target=
=3D"_blank">jinmei@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">At Thu, 5 Mar 2020 04:08:28 +0000,<br>
&quot;Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)&quot; &lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisc=
o.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; If we argue this behavior as not violating &quot;extension headers can=
not be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destinati=
on&quot; because &quot;segment left&quot; is 0 at that point (and therefore=
<br>
&gt; S2 is the &quot;final destination&quot;), that&#39;s a very innovative=
 interpretation of the specification (not really surprisingly, given how &q=
uot;innovative&quot; SRv6 people are:-).=C2=A0 In fact, with that kind of l=
ogic, we could write a specification which allows any intermediate node in =
a routing header decreases the segment left to 0 (regardless of the previou=
s value of it) at its own discretion, and then claim it&#39;s the final (ul=
timate) destination and does whatever is allowed for the final destination =
node.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [KT] This is definitely not the argument. Please check this link for t=
he explanation of the logic : <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/=
msg/spring/kV6By4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/kV6By4pnvbURdU1O7khwPbk_saM=
/</a><br>
<br>
This link&#39;s explanation is that RFC8200 does NOT mean &quot;extension<b=
r>
headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its<br>
ultimate destination&quot; (and therefore PSP doesn&#39;t violate it), isn&=
#39;t<br>
it?=C2=A0 Then please remember the context of this conversation - it<br>
started with this comment by Robert:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has l=
eft<br>
&gt;&gt; its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a<br>
&gt;&gt; packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination&quot;.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this<br>
&gt;&gt; sentence.<br>
<br>
And I wondered about the logic how &quot;it would *still* be not violate th=
e<br>
RFC&quot;.=C2=A0 So this link&#39;s explanation isn&#39;t relevant to this =
specific<br>
discussion.<br>
<br>
As for that link&#39;s explanation, I already explained why that<br>
interpretation doesn&#39;t make sense, probably several times, so I won&#39=
;t<br>
repeat it again.=C2=A0 I know not everyone agrees with my explanation, and<=
br>
I&#39;m pretty sure no further explanation can change the mind of people<br=
>
who firmly believe this link&#39;s argument, so there&#39;s no need for<br>
repeating the position.<br>
<br>
I guess that&#39;s the same for the rest of your response (sorry for not<br=
>
addressing these one by one but).=C2=A0 I knew not everyone would<br>
agree/support my arguments and suggestions.=C2=A0 From your response, it<br=
>
looks like I already made my points clear enough, you understood them<br>
correctly, and still disagreed with those.=C2=A0 At this point, I suspect<b=
r>
we&#39;ll just have to agree to disagree than wasting everyone&#39;s time t=
o<br>
keep making essentially the same points again and again.<br>
<br>
I guess the only feasible next move of mine is to bring my points to<br>
whatever next round of the process (another WGLC or IETF LC).<br>
<br>
--<br>
JINMEI, Tatuya<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000060c30905a0374db9--


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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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At Fri, 6 Mar 2020 23:37:37 +0100,
Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> But in the same time I hear from both SR folks as well as 6man AD that the
> current language of RFC8200 is purposely left to only say that only pure
> transit nodes can not mess with the the IPv6 headers in any way while in
> the same time node which address (/128 or less) is verbatim placed in
> destination address field of the outermost IPv6 header can.

Hmm, do you mean Suresh by "6man AD"?  Or do you mean 6mah WG chair(s)?
I didn't think Suresh said it was intentionally left ambiguous so that
it could allow a non-final destination node can remove an EH...Maybe
you're referring to this message?
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/f-MzcHlmeklMXJ0E63TTzij4YQI/

On re-reading it now, it's actually subtle: "We ended up strengthening
some constraints while leaving some others open" or "it is impossible
to determine after the fact if a different text formulation would have
gotten consensus" could read as if this loophole was intentional, but
the wording is so nuanced and I'm not sure if that's his intent.

> I do not know if this is compliant with the IPv6 architecture spirit, but
> when we process drafts which refer to prior RFCs we must base them on the
> actual text and not the intentions of those who wrote it.

I agree if this were a discussion on a law in a court, and I also tend
to agree for an engineering discussion in general: after all
"intentions" are generally a subjective matter.  But, in this case, it
was clearly (to me) a bug of RFC8200, if only because this
interpretation could still allow breaking PMTUD.  Recalling we spent
hundreds if not thousands of email messages on whether we can allow
it, it's really a surprise to me if it's just not a wording bug but an
intentionally left loophole.  If my reading of this thread is correct,
it was not only me who were surprised at it.

>From this point of view, publishing another document with its
validity based on a bug will mean we're making another bug, and that's
unfortunate from an engineering point of view.  Hence my sketch
proposal: behavior-wise it's no different from network-programming-12
(the penultimate node can still remove the SRH), but just based on a
bug-fixed version of RFC8200 by updating it, thereby making
network-programming less buggy as well.  I sincerely thought it would
have a higher chance to be accepted: for the supporters of
network-programming there's no change for implementations and
operations; for those disagreeing it conforms to RFC8200, at least
there's now no such reason (some people may still disagree with the
update rationales, but I suspect that would be the same whether it
tries to claim conformance or update).

But, again, I expect not everyone agrees on this idea.  You probably
won't; then I'll respect that.  Sometimes we just have to agree to
disagree.

> So while we are at it what puzzles me more now is to clearly understand
> under what precise conditions the actual SRH insertion can take place since
> the advice from IPv6 community was to move it to a different draft. One was
> clearly articulated - assure the packets will not get dropped due to such
> SRH insertion. Valid. Is there something more ?
>
> Procedurally I understand that as long as this new spinned off draft
> updates RFC8200 we should be all ok. Is this a correct assumption ?

Sorry, I'm not sure how to interpret these two paragraph...is it
related to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12?

--
JINMEI, Tatuya


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:28:03 +1100
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To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
Cc: "bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>,  SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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Subject: [spring] More specific DA text in the Routing Header section of RFC 8200
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Hi Jim,

On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 at 01:31, James Guichard
<james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> With all due respect, from what I have read, I do not see how SPRING, or =
the authors of the network programming draft are interpreting the "intent" =
of the text in RFC8200. The text as written is very clear; there is no inte=
rpretation needed other than reading the plain English which clearly says t=
he node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header may =
process, insert, or delete Extension headers (other than Hop-by-Hop Options=
 header).

I would agree that this text is reading as though EH processing can
occur when the packet arrives at any DA:

"Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
   processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery
   path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes,
   in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
   of the IPv6 header."

However, we're also taking about a routing header, and in RFC 8200
there is a distinction between intermediate DAs and final DAs in that
section.

"The Routing header is used by an IPv6 source to list one or more
   intermediate nodes to be "visited" on the way to a packet's
   destination.  This function is very similar to IPv4's Loose Source
   and Record Route option.  The Routing header is identified by a Next
   Header value of 43 in the immediately preceding header and has the
   following format:"

If the earlier text is referring to all DAs regardless (intermediate
or final), then I think it can imply that intermediate node addresses
in an RH can be multicast DAs ("or each of the set of nodes, in the
case of multicast").

I can't think of a good use for multicast intermediate nodes in an RH,
and I think it would make the RFC5095 RH0 oscillation type of attack
worse because there is now potential multicast packet duplication
involved as well.

So if the original assumption was that intermediate node DAs were
always unicast addresses, or we came to consensus that RH Intermediate
Node DAs must be unicast addresses, then the earlier less specific DA
text, saying "(or each of the set of nodes, in the case of
multicast)", can really only be referring to the final DA, not
intermediate ones.

I appreciate people might disagree with me (although I think they're
then saying that multicast intermediate node DAs are fine), however
it's an example of where there is ambiguity that needs to be cleaned
up and where Routing Header text might be indirectly providing clarity
on where the more general EH processing text applies.

RFC 8200 probably needs a review of all uses of the term "Destination
Address" to determine and specify in each instance if it is unicast,
multicast, both and/or intermediate, final, or any DAs.

Regards,
Mark.

> It seems to me to set a very bad precedence if we now expect non-authors =
of an original Internet standard to have to interpret the intent of the ori=
ginal authors rather than simply read the text as published, especially in =
the case of an Internet standard.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 1:32 AM
> To: bruno.decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.or=
g>; 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-s=
pring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
> Subject: Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: [spring] WG=
LC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
>
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 05:37, <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
> >
> > Fernando,
> <snip>
> >
> > - Read the mailing list and you will see that everyone do not share you=
r opinion. So at least one person is wrong. I think that it would help if e=
veryone, including you, could consider that they/you _may_ be wrong, at lea=
st to better understand the comments been made by others.  And possibly the=
 text from RFC 8200 is not clear, but this is what we have. And this is the=
 text to use to support the claim that this text is violated.
>
> The final interpretation and intent of text in RFC8200 should be up to 6m=
an, not SPRING, when there is ambiguity and dispute, as 6man is the ultimat=
e design authority for IPv6.
>
> RFC5704, "Uncoordinated Protocol Development Considered Harmful":
>
> " In particular, the
>    IAB considers it an essential principle of the protocol development
>    process that only one SDO maintains design authority for a given
>    protocol, with that SDO having ultimate authority over the allocation
>    of protocol parameter code-points and over defining the intended
>    semantics, interpretation, and actions associated with those code-
>    points."
>
> IETF WGs would qualify as standards development organisations.
>
> Those of us in 6man during the clarifications in this area of RFC8200 kno=
w the intent. It was specifically about modification of the EH chain, and w=
as in response to the 'draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion' Interne=
t Draft.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > - Why have _you_ filled an errata against RFC 8200, in order to change
> > the technical content of this section, if you don't agree that one may
> > red " Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" as the IPv6
> > address present in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header
> > been received by the End node (or even sent by the source node)
> > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww=
.
> > rfc-editor.org%2Ferrata%2Feid5933&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard=
%
> > 40futurewei.com%7C3a9e583a99324ab04a0708d7c19825be%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189
> > c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637190731541021508&amp;sdata=3DbybICm4YFIPalN=
f
> > qYea%2FEGXVl5sYj6cRSd0VXZsnpww%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >
> > > > At minimum, I think that we can agree that there is another reading=
, as expressed by other WG participants, and hence I disagree with "of cour=
se".
> > >
> > > No, I argue that there is not.IN fact, I argue that folks have been
> > > following that strategy for way too long, and that's quite frustratin=
g.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Personally, I understand "Destination Address" as "Destination Addr=
ess field of the IPv6 header." as indicated explicitly in the text quoted.
> > >
> > > The quoted text is from RFC8200. In the context of RFC8200 the
> > > Destination Address can only contain the ultimate destination of the
> > > packet. Where's the ambiguity?
> > >
> > > And let me ask you, as chair, another question, that will lead you
> > > to the same place: is IPv6 and end to end protocol?
> >
> > That's not a question for a spring chair to answer.
> > I'm reading the sentence in RFC8200. If we can't agree on the meaning o=
f this explicit sentence, I don't think that discussing philosophical r rel=
igious question is going to help.
> >
> > > The fact that I may claim that RFC8200 contains a receipe for BBQ
> > > does not actually mean that that's the case.
> >
> > You do realize that your above sentence also applies to yourself? So ho=
w is this helping to progress?
> > Can we please focus on the RFC8200 sentence?  I'm really trying to unde=
rstand your point.
> > Let's stick to the texts of documents.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > I'm fine with having this clarified with 6MAND chairs and AD. That =
been said, the Internet AD would have an opportunity to DISCUSS this.
> > >
> > > For the record, I think this is a major issue that should be cleared
> > > before it can be claimed that there is consensus to request
> > > publication of this document.
> >
> > OK, this is recorded.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> does not specify any routing header type, and hence the meaning
> > > >> is unambiguous (there's no destination other than the final
> > > >> destination of the packet).
> > > >>
> > > >> This is of course in line with IPv6 being and end-to-end
> > > >> protocol, and crucial for other related mechanisms to work as
> > > >> expected (such as IPsec AH). Please also check: draft-smith-6man-i=
n-flight-eh-insertion-harmful.
> > > >>
> > > >> So, in order to proceed with the document, there are multiple
> > > >> options
> > > >> forward:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) Just remove the corresponding text/behavior
> > > >
> > > > That is indeed one option. But as of today, this is not my assumpti=
on.
> > > >
> > > >> 2) Implement a similar mechanism in an RFC8200-compliant manner
> > > >> (e.g.,
> > > >> re-encap)
> > > >
> > > > SRH insert is out of scope of this specification. So yes, IPv6 enca=
ps is used.
> > > > We are talking SRH removal. I'm assuming that you are referring to =
PSP. My understanding is that this function (PSP) is to distribute the (for=
warding plane) load between the PSP and the USP. In a way similar to MPLS P=
HP. But in all cases, this is not about SRH insertion.
> > >
> > > It's about SRH removal, which is also forbiden by RFC8200.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >> 3) Do the necessary standards work to update RFC8200, such that
> > > >> it allows this sort of behavior, and only ship the
> > > >> network-programming draft for publication when at least 6man has
> > > >> consensus to proceed on that path.
> > > >
> > > > Not the preferred path as of today.
> > >
> > > Yes, it should be evident that it seems the preferred path has been
> > > (starting with EH insertion at the time) to circumvent existing
> > > specifications.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> P.S.: I will go through the document once again... but the same
> > > >> reasoning should be applied to any EH-insertion/removal at a
> > > >> place other than the source of the packet or its final destination=
.
> > > >
> > > > It looks to me that SRH insertion and SRH removal are to be treated=
 differently.
> > >
> > > I don't see how or why.
> >
> > SRH insertion is done by a node, on the path, which is not the destinat=
ion of the IPv6 addresses.
> > SRH removal is done by a node which is receiving the packet because it'=
s IPv6 address is in the destination of the IPv6 packet.
> >
> > > Both violate the same requirement in RFC8200.
> >
> > We are not having a conversation, so let's not repeats the same point a=
gain and again.
> >
> > Your opinion has been noted. So does opinions on this same point expres=
sed by other wg participants.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > --
> > > Fernando Gont
> > > SI6 Networks
> > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > ___________________________________________________
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:13:23 +0100
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To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>,  "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>,  "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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> But, again, I expect not everyone agrees on this idea.  You probably
> won't; then I'll respect that.  Sometimes we just have to agree to
> disagree.

Well perhaps to your surprise I am all for clarity in the specifications.
So I have nothing against this spec (or any other spec) to formally update
RFC8200. But correct me if I am wrong - but this would require also 6man
WGLC if I am not mistaken in the process ?

But as you just mentioned there was "hundreds if not thousands of email
messages" regarding header insertion/deletion in flight on 6man and that is
why some authors may be actually resisting to take that path - just to keep
the pandora box closed.

Maybe a compromise is to either start a parallel effort to issue RFC8200bis
or just propose a one page new 6man draft with clear statement that routing
headers can be removed by nodes listed in the SRH segment list and move fwd
?

Many thx,
R.

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:21 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei=
@wide.ad.jp> wrote:

> At Fri, 6 Mar 2020 23:37:37 +0100,
> Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> > But in the same time I hear from both SR folks as well as 6man AD that
> the
> > current language of RFC8200 is purposely left to only say that only pur=
e
> > transit nodes can not mess with the the IPv6 headers in any way while i=
n
> > the same time node which address (/128 or less) is verbatim placed in
> > destination address field of the outermost IPv6 header can.
>
> Hmm, do you mean Suresh by "6man AD"?  Or do you mean 6mah WG chair(s)?
> I didn't think Suresh said it was intentionally left ambiguous so that
> it could allow a non-final destination node can remove an EH...Maybe
> you're referring to this message?
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/f-MzcHlmeklMXJ0E63TTzij4YQI/
>
> On re-reading it now, it's actually subtle: "We ended up strengthening
> some constraints while leaving some others open" or "it is impossible
> to determine after the fact if a different text formulation would have
> gotten consensus" could read as if this loophole was intentional, but
> the wording is so nuanced and I'm not sure if that's his intent.
>
> > I do not know if this is compliant with the IPv6 architecture spirit, b=
ut
> > when we process drafts which refer to prior RFCs we must base them on t=
he
> > actual text and not the intentions of those who wrote it.
>
> I agree if this were a discussion on a law in a court, and I also tend
> to agree for an engineering discussion in general: after all
> "intentions" are generally a subjective matter.  But, in this case, it
> was clearly (to me) a bug of RFC8200, if only because this
> interpretation could still allow breaking PMTUD.  Recalling we spent
> hundreds if not thousands of email messages on whether we can allow
> it, it's really a surprise to me if it's just not a wording bug but an
> intentionally left loophole.  If my reading of this thread is correct,
> it was not only me who were surprised at it.
>
> From this point of view, publishing another document with its
> validity based on a bug will mean we're making another bug, and that's
> unfortunate from an engineering point of view.  Hence my sketch
> proposal: behavior-wise it's no different from network-programming-12
> (the penultimate node can still remove the SRH), but just based on a
> bug-fixed version of RFC8200 by updating it, thereby making
> network-programming less buggy as well.  I sincerely thought it would
> have a higher chance to be accepted: for the supporters of
> network-programming there's no change for implementations and
> operations; for those disagreeing it conforms to RFC8200, at least
> there's now no such reason (some people may still disagree with the
> update rationales, but I suspect that would be the same whether it
> tries to claim conformance or update).
>
> But, again, I expect not everyone agrees on this idea.  You probably
> won't; then I'll respect that.  Sometimes we just have to agree to
> disagree.
>
> > So while we are at it what puzzles me more now is to clearly understand
> > under what precise conditions the actual SRH insertion can take place
> since
> > the advice from IPv6 community was to move it to a different draft. One
> was
> > clearly articulated - assure the packets will not get dropped due to su=
ch
> > SRH insertion. Valid. Is there something more ?
> >
> > Procedurally I understand that as long as this new spinned off draft
> > updates RFC8200 we should be all ok. Is this a correct assumption ?
>
> Sorry, I'm not sure how to interpret these two paragraph...is it
> related to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12?
>
> --
> JINMEI, Tatuya
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; But, agai=
n, I expect not everyone agrees on this idea.=C2=A0 You probably<br>&gt; wo=
n&#39;t; then I&#39;ll respect that.=C2=A0 Sometimes we just have to agree =
to<br>&gt; disagree.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>Well perhap=
s to your surprise I am all for clarity in the specifications. So I have no=
thing against this spec (or any other spec) to formally update RFC8200. But=
 correct me if I am wrong - but this would require also 6man WGLC if I am n=
ot mistaken in the process ?</div><div><br></div><div>But as you just menti=
oned there was &quot;hundreds if not thousands of email messages&quot; rega=
rding header insertion/deletion in flight on 6man and that is why some auth=
ors may be actually resisting=C2=A0to take that path - just to keep the pan=
dora box closed.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>Maybe a comprom=
ise is to either start a parallel effort to issue RFC8200bis or just propos=
e a one page new 6man draft with clear statement that routing headers can b=
e removed by nodes listed in the SRH segment list and move fwd ?=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>Many thx,<br>R.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:21 AM =E7=A5=
=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp">jin=
mei@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">At Fri, 6 Mar 2020 23:37:37 +0100,<br>
Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">ro=
bert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; But in the same time I hear from both SR folks as well as 6man AD that=
 the<br>
&gt; current language of RFC8200 is purposely left to only say that only pu=
re<br>
&gt; transit nodes can not mess with the the IPv6 headers in any way while =
in<br>
&gt; the same time node which address (/128 or less) is verbatim placed in<=
br>
&gt; destination address field of the outermost IPv6 header can.<br>
<br>
Hmm, do you mean Suresh by &quot;6man AD&quot;?=C2=A0 Or do you mean 6mah W=
G chair(s)?<br>
I didn&#39;t think Suresh said it was intentionally left ambiguous so that<=
br>
it could allow a non-final destination node can remove an EH...Maybe<br>
you&#39;re referring to this message?<br>
<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/f-MzcHlmeklMXJ0E63TTz=
ij4YQI/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/=
arch/msg/ipv6/f-MzcHlmeklMXJ0E63TTzij4YQI/</a><br>
<br>
On re-reading it now, it&#39;s actually subtle: &quot;We ended up strengthe=
ning<br>
some constraints while leaving some others open&quot; or &quot;it is imposs=
ible<br>
to determine after the fact if a different text formulation would have<br>
gotten consensus&quot; could read as if this loophole was intentional, but<=
br>
the wording is so nuanced and I&#39;m not sure if that&#39;s his intent.<br=
>
<br>
&gt; I do not know if this is compliant with the IPv6 architecture spirit, =
but<br>
&gt; when we process drafts which refer to prior RFCs we must base them on =
the<br>
&gt; actual text and not the intentions of those who wrote it.<br>
<br>
I agree if this were a discussion on a law in a court, and I also tend<br>
to agree for an engineering discussion in general: after all<br>
&quot;intentions&quot; are generally a subjective matter.=C2=A0 But, in thi=
s case, it<br>
was clearly (to me) a bug of RFC8200, if only because this<br>
interpretation could still allow breaking PMTUD.=C2=A0 Recalling we spent<b=
r>
hundreds if not thousands of email messages on whether we can allow<br>
it, it&#39;s really a surprise to me if it&#39;s just not a wording bug but=
 an<br>
intentionally left loophole.=C2=A0 If my reading of this thread is correct,=
<br>
it was not only me who were surprised at it.<br>
<br>
>From this point of view, publishing another document with its<br>
validity based on a bug will mean we&#39;re making another bug, and that&#3=
9;s<br>
unfortunate from an engineering point of view.=C2=A0 Hence my sketch<br>
proposal: behavior-wise it&#39;s no different from network-programming-12<b=
r>
(the penultimate node can still remove the SRH), but just based on a<br>
bug-fixed version of RFC8200 by updating it, thereby making<br>
network-programming less buggy as well.=C2=A0 I sincerely thought it would<=
br>
have a higher chance to be accepted: for the supporters of<br>
network-programming there&#39;s no change for implementations and<br>
operations; for those disagreeing it conforms to RFC8200, at least<br>
there&#39;s now no such reason (some people may still disagree with the<br>
update rationales, but I suspect that would be the same whether it<br>
tries to claim conformance or update).<br>
<br>
But, again, I expect not everyone agrees on this idea.=C2=A0 You probably<b=
r>
won&#39;t; then I&#39;ll respect that.=C2=A0 Sometimes we just have to agre=
e to<br>
disagree.<br>
<br>
&gt; So while we are at it what puzzles me more now is to clearly understan=
d<br>
&gt; under what precise conditions the actual SRH insertion can take place =
since<br>
&gt; the advice from IPv6 community was to move it to a different draft. On=
e was<br>
&gt; clearly articulated - assure the packets will not get dropped due to s=
uch<br>
&gt; SRH insertion. Valid. Is there something more ?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Procedurally I understand that as long as this new spinned off draft<b=
r>
&gt; updates RFC8200 we should be all ok. Is this a correct assumption ?<br=
>
<br>
Sorry, I&#39;m not sure how to interpret these two paragraph...is it<br>
related to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12?<br>
<br>
--<br>
JINMEI, Tatuya<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000003a69ac05a041dc9d--


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Subject: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is =
indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain =
in all cases is terminated. e.g.,

"
   When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.BM
   SID, does:

  S01. When an SRH is processed {
  S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
...
               Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
  S04.   }
  S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {
...
               Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
  S07.   }
  S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {
...
               Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
  S11.   }
...
  S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to the
            topmost label.
  S16. }
"

The text then says:

   When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a FIB
   entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the packet
   as per Section 4.1.1.

Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this point?

Thanks,
Chris.=


From nobody Sat Mar  7 22:29:11 2020
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Thread-Topic: Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
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Subject: Re: [spring] Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
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Sorry realized I had hit direct reply so adding relevant

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 09:07
To: Brian E Carpenter
Subject: Re: Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: [spring] =
WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)

Hi Mark, Brian

> RFC 4291:
>
> "2.1. Addressing Model
>
> IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
> An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each
> interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
> unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node."
>
>
> draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26:
>
> "4.3. SR Segment Endpoint Node
>
> When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
> longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address. This
> lookup can return any of the following:
>
> * A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID

The above issue with the fact that srv6 as a whole - and to a wider degree =
- mangles the ipv6 address semantics has been raised several times in sprin=
g by myself and others - and very studiously ignored - it=92s been amazing =
how emails on these questions seem to magically disappear into spam filters=
.


> I'll bet you a beer next time I'm in Melbourne that the implemenations
> all assign such SIDs to the loopback interface. What else can "locally
> instantiated" mean in any vaguely Unix-like O/S?

Do I get to claim the beer if we are ever in the same place? :). I ask beca=
use I tested across a few platforms - and while most of the testing I did w=
as on XR/eXR/XRv here is what I can say in the code I tested

A.) The SIDs arent assigned to a loopback - and from what I could see the L=
oopback couldn=92t come from the same range as the =93locator=94

B.) There are some very strange length limitations on the length of the loc=
ator - specifically, the documentation explicitly states that the SID block=
 portion of the address cannot be less than 40 bits in length, and the node=
 section can not exceed 24 bits.  It also states explicitly that only a sin=
gle locator is supported and that is the block used by default for SID allo=
cation.

C.) Use of this means that every device you add a SID to now has 2 entries =
in your FIB with the IGP domain - which is you are running lower end edge d=
evices creates a problem - particularly if you are already segmenting with =
areas so specific design criteria in order to keep that IGP entry count dow=
n so as to allow for the use of lower cost edge

D.) If you look closely post implementing this - you find that there is a n=
ew route type on the devices referred to as SRv6-Local - and each function =
instantiates a new =93Local=94 IGP route - as in they show up in a look at =
for example the ISIS routes but never propagate beyond the end point node i=
tself (in a test we instantiated 2000 VRFs and found 2000 local routes appe=
ared - none of which were associated with any =93Interface=94 as such.

I will also say - I=92ve been configuring and troubleshooting networks for =
a long long long time - and my only thought as I went through the testing I=
=92ve been playing with up till now - for so many reasons - was =93God help=
 the NOC that has to troubleshoot this the day it goes wrong=94 :)

Can I say if this is all implementations out there - no - not at all - but =
this is what I found on the ones that I have tested so far.  Then again - t=
he implementations I have tested so far also never use the SRH and seem to =
have no facility to enable anything that would mandate it - and every reque=
st for packet dumps from these platforms or for configurations that would c=
ause an SRH to be applied have again mysteriously disappeared into the ethe=
r (I=92ve asked for such both on spring and directly).  Happy to share pack=
et captures of what is actually happening.

Does make me wonder though what all the people in the deployment draft have=
 deployed though - because in my book - if you haven=92t got an SRH - you a=
ren=92t doing SRv6 - you are doing something that is probably more appropri=
ately placed in BLESS


Andrew

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<html>
<head>
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252">
</head>
<body>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">
<div></div>
<div data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">
<div>Sorry realized I had hit direct reply so adding relevant</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Andrew</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"ms-outlook-ios-signature" id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">=
Get <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/o0ukef" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">
Outlook for iOS</a></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-374d2073-fde1-4540-97c8-af82f48b1657" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
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<hr style=3D"display: inline-block; width: 98%; font-family: -webkit-standa=
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<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b=
>From:</b> Andrew Alston &lt;Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 8, 2020 09:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian E Carpenter<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Who is the design ultimate authority over IPv6? (Re: [s=
pring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming)
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</font></div>
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1252">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div></div>
<div style=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:1rem">Hi Mark, Brian</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:1rem">&gt; RFC 4291:</span><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message">
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;2.1. Addressing Model<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.<br>
&gt; An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each<br>
&gt; interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'<br>
&gt; unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;4.3. SR Segment Endpoint Node<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a<br>
&gt; longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address. This<b=
r>
&gt; lookup can return any of the following:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; * A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID<br>
<br>
The above issue with the fact that srv6 as a whole - and to a wider degree =
- mangles the ipv6 address semantics has been raised several times in sprin=
g by myself and others - and very studiously ignored - it=92s been amazing =
how emails on these questions seem
 to magically disappear into spam filters.</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message">
<br>
&gt; I'll bet you a beer next time I'm in Melbourne that the implemenations=
<br>
&gt; all assign such SIDs to the loopback interface. What else can &quot;lo=
cally<br>
&gt; instantiated&quot; mean in any vaguely Unix-like O/S?<br>
<br>
Do I get to claim the beer if we are ever in the same place? :). I ask beca=
use I tested across a few platforms - and while most of the testing I did w=
as on XR/eXR/XRv here is what I can say in the code I tested</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
A.) The SIDs arent assigned to a loopback - and from what I could see the L=
oopback couldn=92t come from the same range as the =93locator=94</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
B.) There are some very strange length limitations on the length of the loc=
ator - specifically, the documentation explicitly states that the SID block=
 portion of the address cannot be less than 40 bits in length, and the node=
 section can not exceed 24 bits.
 &nbsp;It also states explicitly that only a single locator is supported an=
d that is the block used by default for SID allocation.</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem">C.) Use of this means that every device you =
add a SID to now has 2 entries in your FIB with the IGP domain - which is y=
ou are running lower end edge devices creates a problem - particularly if y=
ou are already segmenting with areas
 so specific design criteria in order to keep that IGP entry count down so =
as to allow for the use of lower cost edge</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem">D.) If you look closely post implementing th=
is - you find that there is a new route type on the devices referred to as =
SRv6-Local - and each function instantiates a new =93Local=94 IGP route - a=
s in they show up in a look at for example
 the ISIS routes but never propagate beyond the end point node itself (in a=
 test we instantiated 2000 VRFs and found 2000 local routes appeared - none=
 of which were associated with any =93Interface=94 as such.</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem">I will also say - I=92ve been configuring an=
d troubleshooting networks for a long long long time - and my only thought =
as I went through the testing I=92ve been playing with up till now - for so=
 many reasons - was =93God help the NOC
 that has to troubleshoot this the day it goes wrong=94 :)</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem">Can I say if this is all implementations out=
 there - no - not at all - but this is what I found on the ones that I have=
 tested so far. &nbsp;Then again - the implementations I have tested so far=
 also never use the SRH and seem to have
 no facility to enable anything that would mandate it - and every request f=
or packet dumps from these platforms or for configurations that would cause=
 an SRH to be applied have again mysteriously disappeared into the ether (I=
=92ve asked for such both on spring
 and directly). &nbsp;Happy to share packet captures of what is actually ha=
ppening.</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem">Does make me wonder though what all the peop=
le in the deployment draft have deployed though - because in my book - if y=
ou haven=92t got an SRH - you aren=92t doing SRv6 - you are doing something=
 that is probably more appropriately placed
 in BLESS</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem"><br>
</span></div>
<div id=3D"id-9c96824a-3a6b-43e0-a28f-b79ad45f738d" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
ile-reference-message" dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"font-size:1rem">Andrew&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>
To: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
CC: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case--benifit of SRv6
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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 08:23:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case--benifit of SRv6
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From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case--benifit of SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 PSP use case--benifit of SRv6
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From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" <gengxuesong@huawei.com>
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: Segment Routing for Redundancy Protection
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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:00:58 +0000
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Subject: [spring] Segment Routing for Redundancy Protection
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Dear all,

We publish the following drafts for redundancy protection, which could prov=
ide ultra-high reliability with 1+1 protection:

-          New SR policy is defined in draft-geng-spring-redundancy-policy-=
00<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-spring-redundancy-policy/>

-          New SIDs are defined in draft-geng-spring-redundancy-protection-=
sid-00<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-spring-redundancy-protec=
tion-sid/>

-          SRH extension is defined in draft-geng-spring-redundancy-protect=
ion-srh-00<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-spring-redundancy-pr=
otection-srh/>
Comments are always welcome.

Best Regards
Xuesong

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear=
 all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We p=
ublish the following drafts for redundancy protection, which could provide =
ultra-high reliability with 1&#43;1 protection:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;m=
so-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-=
<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">New SR policy is define=
d in <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-spring-redundan=
cy-policy/">
draft-geng-spring-redundancy-policy-00</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;m=
so-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-=
<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">New SIDs are defined in=
 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-spring-redundancy-p=
rotection-sid/">
draft-geng-spring-redundancy-protection-sid-00</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;line-height:150%;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-=
<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">SRH extension is define=
d in <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-spring-redundan=
cy-protection-srh/">
draft-geng-spring-redundancy-protection-srh-00</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Comm=
ents are always welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Best=
 Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Xues=
ong<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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From nobody Mon Mar  9 10:49:06 2020
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Service Programming with Segment Routing
        Authors         : Francois Clad
                          Xiaohu Xu
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Daniel Bernier
                          Cheng Li
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Shaowen Ma
                          Chaitanya Yadlapalli
                          Wim Henderickx
                          Stefano Salsano
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming-02.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   This document defines data plane functionality required to implement
   service segments and achieve service programming in SR-enabled MPLS
   and IPv6 networks, as described in the Segment Routing architecture.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From nobody Mon Mar  9 13:20:17 2020
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Pablo Camarillo Garvia
                          John Leddy
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Zhenbin Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-13.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
   an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
   encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.

   Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
   network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.

   This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
   specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
   interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
   Agreements).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:47:12 -0700
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>,  Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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At Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:13:23 +0100,
Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> > But, again, I expect not everyone agrees on this idea.  You probably
> > won't; then I'll respect that.  Sometimes we just have to agree to
> > disagree.
>
> Well perhaps to your surprise I am all for clarity in the specifications.
> So I have nothing against this spec (or any other spec) to formally update
> RFC8200. But correct me if I am wrong - but this would require also 6man
> WGLC if I am not mistaken in the process ?

Assuming you mean draft-bonica-6man-ext-hdr-update, yes, and it will
first need to be adopted way before that, and it's not even
guaranteed.

> But as you just mentioned there was "hundreds if not thousands of email
> messages" regarding header insertion/deletion in flight on 6man and that is
> why some authors may be actually resisting to take that path - just to keep
> the pandora box closed.

Perhaps.  While I strongly suspect it's an accidental bug rather than
an intentional art of obfuscation, I'm afraid we don't have an
evidence to prove (or deny) that in a court.

> Maybe a compromise is to either start a parallel effort to issue RFC8200bis
> or just propose a one page new 6man draft with clear statement that routing
> headers can be removed by nodes listed in the SRH segment list and move fwd
> ?

Hmm, what I proposed for draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is
essentially just that (in the context of, and with other restrictions
such as limiting it to the penultimate node, specific to
srv6-network-programming).

But if writing a separate document just focusing it (in which case
network-programming would refer to it as an example of that update)
makes the process faster, that can be an option.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
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From: Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:26:47 -0400
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Updates to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt
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Thanks Greg for your review comments. Please see inline with <RG>..

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 11:09 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Rakesh,
> my apologies for the belated response and comments that you can find belo=
w:
>
>    - as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode,
>    mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP
>    protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is
>    described in the informational text only, I think that the Information=
al
>    track is more appropriate for this specification.
>
> <RG> The document defines procedures for SR.


>
>    - I with the introduction of the Control Code field you propose the
>    update to the STAMP base test packet defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp
>    <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/>. How the
>    proposed change benefits STAMP protocol? As I understand, the Control =
Code
>    field is introduced only for the benefit of the mechanism you propose =
for
>    the Segment Routing. Does it have broader applicability? Why not use t=
he
>    accepted by IPPM WG STAMP extension model and use TLV?
>
> <RG> I will prepare few slides to discuss different options.


>
>    - also, the update introduces Loss Measurement Query Message Formats
>    and Loss Measurement Response Message Formats for STAMP, which are the
>    changes to draft-ietf-ippm-stamp, which has already been approved by I=
ESG
>    for publication. I couldn't find the explanation of why these mechanis=
ms
>    cannot use the extension mechanism already accepted by IPPM WG for STA=
MP,
>    TLVs, as has been done for Direct Loss Measurement. I hope the authors=
 will
>    expand on the rationale of introducing new constructs in the STAMP bas=
e
>    specification instead of using the TLV-based extension mechanism.
>
> <RG> This was discussed previously.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/JmS56RM5IskNSjshpFNGa9G_nf8/



> And in connection to my comments related to the proposed changes in STAMP
> is the question to SPRING and IPPM WGs Chairs:
>
>    - the authors of the draft have changed the title to reflect the
>    change in the scope of the draft.  Now the draft updates not only
>    informational document that was produced by IPMM WG but the standards =
track
>    document. I think that though Chairs of IPPM and SPRING WGs had discus=
sed
>    where to anchor this specification, the change in scope may be signifi=
cant
>    enough to require another round. Alternatively, changes to STAMP proto=
col
>    may be the basis for the new draft that, preferably, be anchored in th=
e WG
>    that is actively working on defining the STAMP specification and the
>    mechanism to extend STAMP functionalities.
>
>
<RG> STAMP has been in the scope since the beginning.
Please see slide #9 presented in IPPM WG in Montreal at IETF 105 (July 2019=
)

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-8-draft-=
gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-01-00

Thanks,
Rakesh



> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:30 PM Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi WG,
>> We have posted a revised draft with the following updates:
>>
>>    - Added control-code field (similar to RFC 6374)
>>    - Added Node-Address TLV (e.g. destination-address) =E2=80=93 to carr=
y the
>>    intended recipient of the probe query when using 127/8 address
>>    - Added Return Address in the Return Path TLV =E2=80=93 to send reply=
 to
>>    other than source-address
>>    - Added SR Policy with different endpoint addresses
>>    - Various editorial changes
>>
>>
>>
>> Welcome your review comments and suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rakesh (on behalf of authors)
>>
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-12-05, 1:48 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org"
>> <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>     A new version of I-D, draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt
>>
>>     has been successfully submitted by Rakesh Gandhi and posted to the
>>
>>     IETF repository.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Name:                              draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
>>
>>     Revision:          05
>>
>>     Title:                  Performance Measurement Using TWAMP Light
>> for Segment Routing Networks
>>
>>     Document date:           2019-12-05
>>
>>     Group:                              Individual Submission
>>
>>     Pages:                               30
>>
>>     URL:
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.t=
xt
>>
>>     Status:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm/
>>
>>     Htmlized:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05
>>
>>     Htmlized:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
>>
>>     Diff:
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05
>>
>>
>>
>>     Abstract:
>>
>>        Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  SR i=
s
>>
>>        applicable to both Multiprotocol Label Switching (SR-MPLS) and
>> IPv6
>>
>>        (SRv6) data planes.  This document specifies procedure for sendin=
g
>>
>>        and processing probe query and response messages for Performance
>>
>>        Measurement (PM) in Segment Routing networks.  The procedure uses
>> the
>>
>>        mechanisms defined in RFC 5357 (Two-Way Active Measurement
>> Protocol
>>
>>        (TWAMP) Light) and Simple Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
>> (STAMP)
>>
>>        for Delay Measurement, and also uses the mechanisms defined in
>> this
>>
>>        document for Loss Measurement.  The procedure specified is
>> applicable
>>
>>        to SR-MPLS and SRv6 data planes and are used for both links and
>>
>>        end-to-end SR Policies.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>>
>>     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>>
>>
>>     The IETF Secretariat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>

--000000000000feb1b805a0801206
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks Greg for your review comments. Please see inli=
ne with &lt;RG&gt;..<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 11:09 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Dear Rakesh,<div>my apologies for the belated response and comments that y=
ou can find below:</div><div><ul><li>as I understand, the draft is applicab=
le to TWAMP Light mode, mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 53=
57, not the TWAMP protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but =
its idea is described in the informational text only, I think that the Info=
rmational track is more appropriate for this specification.</li></ul></div>=
</div></blockquote><div>&lt;RG&gt; The document defines procedures for SR.<=
br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li>I with the introduction of the Control Code =
field you propose the update to the STAMP base test packet defined in <a hr=
ef=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/" target=3D"_b=
lank">draft-ietf-ippm-stamp</a>. How the proposed change benefits STAMP pro=
tocol? As I understand, the Control Code field is introduced only for the b=
enefit of the mechanism you propose for the Segment Routing. Does it have b=
roader applicability? Why not use the accepted by IPPM WG STAMP extension m=
odel and use TLV?</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div>&lt;RG&gt; I will =
prepare few slides to discuss different options.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul=
><li>also, the update introduces=C2=A0Loss Measurement Query Message Format=
s and=C2=A0Loss Measurement Response Message Formats for STAMP, which are t=
he changes to draft-ietf-ippm-stamp, which has already been approved by IES=
G for publication. I couldn&#39;t find the explanation of why these mechani=
sms cannot use the extension mechanism already accepted by IPPM WG for STAM=
P, TLVs, as has been done for Direct Loss Measurement. I hope the authors w=
ill expand on the rationale of introducing new constructs in the STAMP base=
 specification instead of using the TLV-based extension mechanism.</li></ul=
></div></div></blockquote><div>&lt;RG&gt; This was discussed previously.<br=
></div><div><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/JmS56RM5I=
skNSjshpFNGa9G_nf8/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/JmS56RM5Isk=
NSjshpFNGa9G_nf8/</a></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>And in connect=
ion to my comments related to the proposed changes in STAMP is the question=
 to SPRING and IPPM WGs Chairs:</div></div><div><ul><li>the authors of the =
draft have changed the title to reflect the change in the scope of the draf=
t.=C2=A0 Now the draft updates not only informational document that was pro=
duced by IPMM WG but the standards track document. I think that though Chai=
rs of IPPM and SPRING WGs had discussed where to anchor this specification,=
 the change in scope may be significant enough to require another round. Al=
ternatively, changes to STAMP protocol may be the basis for the new draft t=
hat, preferably, be anchored in the WG that is actively working on defining=
 the STAMP specification and the mechanism to extend STAMP functionalities.=
</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&lt;RG&gt; STAMP has=
 been in the scope since the beginning.</div><div>Please see slide #9 prese=
nted in IPPM WG in Montreal at IETF 105 (July 2019)</div><div>=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-8-dr=
aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-01-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/10=
5/materials/slides-105-ippm-8-draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-01-00</a></div=
><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Rakesh</div><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div><br></div></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 31, 2=
020 at 10:30 PM Rakesh Gandhi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">Hi WG,</font></span></=
div><div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">We=
 have posted a revised draft with the following updates:</font></span></div=
><div>




















<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm" type=3D"disc"><li style=3D"m=
argin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><fon=
t size=3D"2"><span>Added control-code field (similar to RFC 6374)<span></sp=
an></span></font></span></li><li style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span>Added Node-Ad=
dress TLV (e.g. destination-address)
     =E2=80=93 to carry the intended recipient of the probe query when usin=
g 127/8
     address<span></span></span></font></span></li><li style=3D"margin:0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"=
2"><span>Added Return Address in the Return Path TLV =E2=80=93 to
     send reply to other than source-address</span></font></span></li><li s=
tyle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-se=
rif"><font size=3D"2"><span>Added SR Policy with different endpoint address=
es<br></span></font></span></li><li style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span>Various ed=
itorial changes<span></span></span></font></span></li></ul>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>=C2=A0</span></sp=
an></font></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>Welcome your revi=
ew comments and suggestions.</span></span></font></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-family:verdan=
a,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>Thanks,</span></span></font></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span><span>Rakesh (on=
 behalf of authors)<br></span></span></font></span></p>





</div><div><br></div><div>


















<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><a name=3D"m_2493694835658060923_m_-1460735778185834878__MailOrigin=
al">=EF=BB=BFOn 2019-12-05, 1:48 PM,
&quot;internet-drafts@ietf.org&quot; &lt;internet-drafts@ietf.org&gt; wrote=
:<span></span></a></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span><=
/span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>A new version of I-D,
draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>has been successfully submitt=
ed by Rakesh
Gandhi and posted to the<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>IETF repository.<span></span>=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Name:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Revision:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>05<span></span></span></p=
>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Title:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Performance
Measurement Using TWAMP Light for Segment Routing Networks<span></span></sp=
an></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Document date:<span>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>2019-12-05<span>=
</span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Group:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 </span>Individual
Submission<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Pages:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>30<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>URL:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-=
twamp-srpm-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/d=
raft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05.txt</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Status:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twam=
p-srpm/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-sp=
ring-twamp-srpm/</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Htmlized: <span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Htmlized:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring=
-twamp-srpm" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Diff:<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-gandhi-spring-t=
wamp-srpm-05" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-g=
andhi-spring-twamp-srpm-05</a><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Abstract:<span></span></span>=
</p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Segment Rou=
ting (SR) leverages the
source routing paradigm.<span>=C2=A0 </span>SR is<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>applicable =
to both Multiprotocol Label
Switching (SR-MPLS) and IPv6<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>(SRv6) data=
 planes.<span>=C2=A0 </span>This document specifies procedure for sending<s=
pan></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>and process=
ing probe query and response
messages for Performance<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Measurement=
 (PM) in Segment Routing
networks.<span>=C2=A0 </span>The procedure uses the<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>mechanisms =
defined in RFC 5357 (Two-Way
Active Measurement Protocol<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>(TWAMP) Lig=
ht) and Simple Two-Way Active
Measurement Protocol (STAMP)<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>for Delay M=
easurement, and also uses the
mechanisms defined in this<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>document fo=
r Loss Measurement.<span>=C2=A0 </span>The procedure specified is applicabl=
e<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>to SR-MPLS =
and SRv6 data planes and are
used for both links and<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>end-to-end =
SR Policies.<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Please note that it may take =
a couple of
minutes from the time of submission<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>until the htmlized version an=
d diff are
available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf=
.org</a>.<span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The IETF Secretariat<span></s=
pan></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span></span></span></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span><span></span></p>





</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

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On Thu, Mar 05, 2020 at 03:55:02PM -0800, Alex Bogdanov wrote:
> To add my 2c, I am OK with the declaration of consensus for this
> draft. This draft is >2y old and had been the subject of extensive
> collaborations on the mailing list, many revisions, many working group
> meetings and last call 3 months ago.
> 
> I don't think the original email is the right way to express
> disagreement(we have a process for that). I also fear that these types of
> exchanges are discouraging participation in open technical debates whereas
> what we should be doing is encouraging innovation and making progress.

The complaint that started this thread might discourage participation,
but then, so might the cause of the complaint.  The complaint was a bit
incendiary, and that is a problem.  Then again, the process we have for
dealing with complaints is heavily biased against plaintiffs -- which is
probably as it should be, as otherwise we might never get anything done,
but then legitimate complaints don't get heard.  I feel OP's
frustration.

Nico
-- 


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Folks,

Have we made a final decision about meeting in Vancouver?

                                   Ron



Juniper Business Use Only

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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Thread-Topic: Not meeting in Vancouver
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Hi all,

SPRING is not meeting in Vancouver.

I personally can't go to Vancouver due to corporate travel restrictions. An=
d there is no other co-chair.

I'll cancel the slot request.

--Bruno

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 5:32 PM
To: spring@ietf.org
Subject: [spring] Are we still meeting in Vancouver?

Folks,

Have we made a final decision about meeting in Vancouver?

                                   Ron



Juniper Business Use Only

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ascii-font-family:=
Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ascii-font-family:=
Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ascii-font-family:=
Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">SPRING is not meeting in=
 Vancouver.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ascii-font-family:=
Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
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Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">I personally can&#8217;t=
 go to Vancouver due to corporate travel restrictions.
 And there is no other co-chair.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ascii-font-family:=
Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
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Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">I&#8217;ll cancel the sl=
ot request.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">--Bruno<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ascii-font-family:=
Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New =
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<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">From</sp=
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uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&q=
uot;">:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;">
<span class=3D"SpellE">spring</span> [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On=
 Behalf Of
</b>Ron Bonica<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 10, 2020 5:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Are we still meeting in Vancouver?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Have we made a final decision about meeting=
 in Vancouver?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif=
&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-languag=
e:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:35.4pt;margin-bottom:.=
0001pt;text-align:center">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Juniper Busi=
ness Use Only</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From nobody Tue Mar 10 10:12:44 2020
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From: "Pete Resnick" <resnick@episteme.net>
To: "Nico Williams" <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: "Alex Bogdanov" <bogdanov=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>, "SPRING WG List" <spring@ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On 10 Mar 2020, at 10:41, Nico Williams wrote:

> ...the process we have for
> dealing with complaints is heavily biased against plaintiffs -- which 
> is
> probably as it should be, as otherwise we might never get anything 
> done,
> but then legitimate complaints don't get heard.  I feel OP's
> frustration.

Nico, could you (or others) expand on this?

I really think this is worthy of a separate discussion: What is it about 
the current process that you find biased against those who bring up a 
dispute? (I take it we're talking about RFC 2026 section 6.5 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5>.) Have you encountered 
a bias in undertaking such a dispute?

I have no doubt that this process is under-used (as a chair and an AD, I 
had to actively encourage people to use the dispute process instead of 
just giving up), but I've always assumed that it was just people not 
wanting to "rock the boat", or not wanting to be seen as a "complainer", 
or thought that nobody up the chain would take them seriously. Those are 
serious problems and we should be figuring out how to address them, 
since people bringing up failures is the only way we can stop bad things 
from happening when a WG or someone in leadership gets tunnel vision and 
does the wrong thing. However, this is the first time I've heard someone 
express that the process itself is stacked against someone with a 
dispute. If that's true, we should really talk about how to fix that.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


From nobody Tue Mar 10 10:56:38 2020
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:55:50 -0400
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To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 1:13 PM Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote:
>
> On 10 Mar 2020, at 10:41, Nico Williams wrote:
>
> > ...the process we have for
> > dealing with complaints is heavily biased against plaintiffs -- which
> > is
> > probably as it should be, as otherwise we might never get anything
> > done,
> > but then legitimate complaints don't get heard.  I feel OP's
> > frustration.
>
> Nico, could you (or others) expand on this?
>
> I really think this is worthy of a separate discussion: What is it about
> the current process that you find biased against those who bring up a
> dispute? (I take it we're talking about RFC 2026 section 6.5
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5>.) Have you encountered
> a bias in undertaking such a dispute?
>
> I have no doubt that this process is under-used (as a chair and an AD, I
> had to actively encourage people to use the dispute process instead of
> just giving up), but I've always assumed that it was just people not
> wanting to "rock the boat", or not wanting to be seen as a "complainer",
> or thought that nobody up the chain would take them seriously. Those are
> serious problems and we should be figuring out how to address them,
> since people bringing up failures is the only way we can stop bad things
> from happening when a WG or someone in leadership gets tunnel vision and
> does the wrong thing. However, this is the first time I've heard someone
> express that the process itself is stacked against someone with a
> dispute. If that's true, we should really talk about how to fix that.

+1.

I realize that +1 is largely content free, but I believe that appeals
and recalls are an incredibly important part of the IETF process -
they are the reason that we can have a process which uses rough
consensus (not voting), and where our process has the flexibility to
(as Spencer would say) "Do the right thing!", and not blindly follow
checklists. In order for these to work, people need to be able, and
comfortable invoking appeals and recalls[0]...

W
[0]: In my copious free time, I still want to organize an exercise
where we fully exercise the recall process - have a pretend AD who
does something outrageous, and then work the entire process (with some
optimizations to not waste everyone's time!)  to fully make sure there
are not any hidden gotcha's. We have worked most of it, and have
thought about it in table-tops, etc - but I'd hate to discover a
hidden issue right when it is most contentions and needed....

>
> pr
> --
> Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
> All connections to the world are tenuous at best
>


-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From nobody Tue Mar 10 11:26:01 2020
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Pablo, in your reply below you say that the text in 8200 is "crystal 
clear".  It requires an interesting lens to find something "crystal 
clear" about which so many people have expressed so much disagreement. 
While a lawyer may claim to a judge that text in a contract is crystal 
clear, it is almost always hyperbole.  That may be useful in other 
contexts.  It is not useful here.

As far as I can tell, the text allows the interpretation that the PSP 
protagonists have reached.  It also allows other interpretations.  In 
the absence of clarity, I can not claim that PSP biolates 8200.  But it 
sure as heck is not "crystal clear".

I also find the articulated use cases for PSP muddy.  And as far as I 
can tell, if the use cases are accurate, then there is a need for 
greater clarity in the underlying drafts (NP because I do not want to 
try call back the base SRH document) about the restrictions on paths 
that can be used.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/10/2020 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> Thanks for going through the document.
> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
> 
> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the BSID.
> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for transmission.
> 
> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
> 
> Hope it clarifies.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pablo.
> 
> [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
> 
> 
> ﻿-----Original Message-----
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
> To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Subject: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
> 
>      In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>      
>      "
>         When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.BM
>         SID, does:
>      
>        S01. When an SRH is processed {
>        S02.   If (Segments Left == 0) {
>      ....
>                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>        S04.   }
>        S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <= 1) {
>      ....
>                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>        S07.   }
>        S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {
>      ....
>                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>        S11.   }
>      ....
>        S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to the
>                  topmost label.
>        S16. }
>      "
>      
>      The text then says:
>      
>         When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a FIB
>         entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the packet
>         as per Section 4.1.1.
>      
>      Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this point?
>      
>      Thanks,
>      Chris.
>      _______________________________________________
>      spring mailing list
>      spring@ietf.org
>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>      
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:11:47PM -0500, Pete Resnick wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2020, at 10:41, Nico Williams wrote:
> 
> > ...the process we have for
> > dealing with complaints is heavily biased against plaintiffs -- which is
> > probably as it should be, as otherwise we might never get anything done,
> > but then legitimate complaints don't get heard.  I feel OP's
> > frustration.
> 
> Nico, could you (or others) expand on this?

Yes.  Challenging consensus is difficult.  People with substantive
commentary sometimes get tanks driven over them.  I've a few stories of
this.  One fairly recent one involving the TLS WG.

> I really think this is worthy of a separate discussion: What is it about the
> current process that you find biased against those who bring up a dispute?

If you get left on the rough side of consensus, whether rightly or
wrongly, and you wish to challenge this, it's really difficult.  You
might have to file an appeal, and if you do you'll annoy and anger
people who want their RFCs published a year ago.

> (I take it we're talking about RFC 2026 section 6.5
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5>.) Have you encountered a
> bias in undertaking such a dispute?

What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on how
willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
resolution.

The case I felt went really badly was the TLS DNSSEC extension.  I don't
want to summarize that here because it will be too easy to accidentally
or unconsciously mischaracterize some detail and trigger a flame war.

That case left many palpably angry, including myself.  The resolution of
that case, BTW, was that the WG decided to drop the work item and let
each do their own extension via the ISE.  IMO that is less than ideal
because if it keeps happening then we're going to have a large TLS
extension support matrix and our users will be sad.

There's no easy way to challenge a consensus to drop a work item.  What
are you gonna do, appeal asking the IAB to force a WG to take on a work
item it doesn't want to?  A WG could even conclude out of spite if
forced to do something it doesn't want to.

So there was no question of appeal, really.  But I do feel that the
chairs and responsible AD did not help enough ahead of the WG throwing
its hands up in the air -- that might be an incorrect perception though,
as maybe the chairs and AD were simply unable to get the strongest
personalities on either side of the dispute to compromise, but, too, I
think they could have called the consensus rather than wait till the WG
threw in the towel on the work item.

> I have no doubt that this process is under-used (as a chair and an AD, I had

I've reached out to chairs and ADs a number of times before, and that
has worked, and can work where they're willing to.

It's difficult to go beyond that to appeals.  We do have to be done at
some point with any one work item.  There is good will to tend to.

The OP of this thread's parent thread clearly felt much more strongly
about their case than anyone did about the TLS DNSSEC extension.  No one
in the latter case felt so aggrieved as to post a "resignation request".

> to actively encourage people to use the dispute process instead of just
> giving up), but I've always assumed that it was just people not wanting to
> "rock the boat", or not wanting to be seen as a "complainer", or thought

There is definitely some of that.

Or at some point a party gets exhausted and gives up.

Some of this is that we're a somewhat academic bunch (RFCs count as
papers now, no?) and you know how it is with academics: the lower the
stakes the worse the infighting.

> that nobody up the chain would take them seriously. Those are serious
> problems and we should be figuring out how to address them, since people
> bringing up failures is the only way we can stop bad things from happening
> when a WG or someone in leadership gets tunnel vision and does the wrong
> thing. However, this is the first time I've heard someone express that the
> process itself is stacked against someone with a dispute. If that's true, we
> should really talk about how to fix that.

Not sure how to make it better, except maybe thus: it should be possible
to get a review of how a dispute was resolved not so much as an appeal,
but as a way to remediate problems to help alleviate _next_ dispute.

Nico
-- 


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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Mar 10, 2020, at 14:45, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:

> What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
> up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on how
> willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
> resolution.
>=20
> The case I felt went really badly was the TLS DNSSEC extension. =20

I agree and while that case was bad, what=E2=80=99s worse is that no post-mo=
rtem was done here. I don=E2=80=99t think the IETF as an organization will t=
ake any lesson from this, and that in itself makes it likely the same mistak=
es will be made again.

> So there was no question of appeal, really. =20

I think also because in the appeal some of the same actors would appear.=20

> Not sure how to make it better, except maybe thus: it should be possible
> to get a review of how a dispute was resolved not so much as an appeal,
> but as a way to remediate problems to help alleviate _next_ dispute.


Going back to this thread, when I read the subject of resignation and the fi=
rst email, it seemed like I just stumbled across a hallway fight - people th=
at demand unreasonable things. I don=E2=80=99t know how this conflict went f=
rom nothing to asking for someone=E2=80=99s resignation but clearly more peo=
ple should have been involved earlier to de-escalate this. maybe that was tr=
ied and just not visible here? It would be good if there had been some kind o=
f log that could have been referenced so we could determine why this failed t=
o de-escalate.

Paul=


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> On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> Thanks for going through the document.
> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 =
(End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>=20
> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a new =
IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the =
BSID.
> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM =
pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for =
transmission.
>=20
> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet =
with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer =
Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>=20
> Hope it clarifies.

I'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me to a =
more basic question:

Section 4.1 described the basic "FIB entry" "End" which says:

  "When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End SID, =
N does..."

So it's talking about a FIB entry for a "local End SID".

Section 4.1.1 says:

  "When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matching a FIB
   entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID"

It's talking about a "FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID"

I'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s calling a =
FIB Entry a "local End SID" 4.1.1 is calling something (different?) a =
"FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID".

The terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I feel =
the document expects me to make one.

Thanks,
Chris.


>=20
> Thanks,
> Pablo.
>=20
> [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps =
<chopps@chopps.org>
> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
> To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Subject: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>=20
>    In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is =
indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain =
in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>=20
>    "
>       When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local =
End.BM
>       SID, does:
>=20
>      S01. When an SRH is processed {
>      S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>    ....
>                   Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      S04.   }
>      S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {
>    ....
>                   Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      S07.   }
>      S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last =
Entry+1)) {
>    ....
>                   Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      S11.   }
>    ....
>      S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to =
the
>                topmost label.
>      S16. }
>    "
>=20
>    The text then says:
>=20
>       When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>       entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the =
packet
>       as per Section 4.1.1.
>=20
>    Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this =
point?
>=20
>    Thanks,
>    Chris.
>    _______________________________________________
>    spring mailing list
>    spring@ietf.org
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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Nico,
On 11-Mar-20 07:45, Nico Williams wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:11:47PM -0500, Pete Resnick wrote:
>> On 10 Mar 2020, at 10:41, Nico Williams wrote:
>>
>>> ...the process we have for
>>> dealing with complaints is heavily biased against plaintiffs -- which is
>>> probably as it should be, as otherwise we might never get anything done,
>>> but then legitimate complaints don't get heard.  I feel OP's
>>> frustration.
>>
>> Nico, could you (or others) expand on this?
> 
> Yes.  Challenging consensus is difficult.  People with substantive
> commentary sometimes get tanks driven over them.  I've a few stories of
> this.  One fairly recent one involving the TLS WG.
> 
>> I really think this is worthy of a separate discussion: What is it about the
>> current process that you find biased against those who bring up a dispute?
> 
> If you get left on the rough side of consensus, whether rightly or
> wrongly, and you wish to challenge this, it's really difficult.  You
> might have to file an appeal, 

Well yes. There's no way round that - you're on the losing side, which
has been a bad deal throughout human history. But at least there *is*
an appeal process (which in practice there wouldn't be, if we used
majority voting to make decisions). That doesn't indicate bias in
the process.

> and if you do you'll annoy and anger
> people who want their RFCs published a year ago.

Again, that doesn't indicate bias in the process.
 
>> (I take it we're talking about RFC 2026 section 6.5
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5>.) Have you encountered a
>> bias in undertaking such a dispute?
> 
> What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
> up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on how
> willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
> resolution.

Of course. But isn't that exactly why the appeals process exists? To
put pressure on chairs and ADs to mediate? I assure you that it's
much more uncomfortable for them to handle a formal appeal than
to try mediation.

I'll stop there because I have precisely zero knowledge of the case
you cite.

    Brian

> 
> The case I felt went really badly was the TLS DNSSEC extension.  I don't
> want to summarize that here because it will be too easy to accidentally
> or unconsciously mischaracterize some detail and trigger a flame war.
> 
> That case left many palpably angry, including myself.  The resolution of
> that case, BTW, was that the WG decided to drop the work item and let
> each do their own extension via the ISE.  IMO that is less than ideal
> because if it keeps happening then we're going to have a large TLS
> extension support matrix and our users will be sad.
> 
> There's no easy way to challenge a consensus to drop a work item.  What
> are you gonna do, appeal asking the IAB to force a WG to take on a work
> item it doesn't want to?  A WG could even conclude out of spite if
> forced to do something it doesn't want to.
> 
> So there was no question of appeal, really.  But I do feel that the
> chairs and responsible AD did not help enough ahead of the WG throwing
> its hands up in the air -- that might be an incorrect perception though,
> as maybe the chairs and AD were simply unable to get the strongest
> personalities on either side of the dispute to compromise, but, too, I
> think they could have called the consensus rather than wait till the WG
> threw in the towel on the work item.
> 
>> I have no doubt that this process is under-used (as a chair and an AD, I had
> 
> I've reached out to chairs and ADs a number of times before, and that
> has worked, and can work where they're willing to.
> 
> It's difficult to go beyond that to appeals.  We do have to be done at
> some point with any one work item.  There is good will to tend to.
> 
> The OP of this thread's parent thread clearly felt much more strongly
> about their case than anyone did about the TLS DNSSEC extension.  No one
> in the latter case felt so aggrieved as to post a "resignation request".
> 
>> to actively encourage people to use the dispute process instead of just
>> giving up), but I've always assumed that it was just people not wanting to
>> "rock the boat", or not wanting to be seen as a "complainer", or thought
> 
> There is definitely some of that.
> 
> Or at some point a party gets exhausted and gives up.
> 
> Some of this is that we're a somewhat academic bunch (RFCs count as
> papers now, no?) and you know how it is with academics: the lower the
> stakes the worse the infighting.
> 
>> that nobody up the chain would take them seriously. Those are serious
>> problems and we should be figuring out how to address them, since people
>> bringing up failures is the only way we can stop bad things from happening
>> when a WG or someone in leadership gets tunnel vision and does the wrong
>> thing. However, this is the first time I've heard someone express that the
>> process itself is stacked against someone with a dispute. If that's true, we
>> should really talk about how to fix that.
> 
> Not sure how to make it better, except maybe thus: it should be possible
> to get a review of how a dispute was resolved not so much as an appeal,
> but as a way to remediate problems to help alleviate _next_ dispute.
> 
> Nico
> 


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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 03:07:53PM -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Mar 10, 2020, at 14:45, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
> > What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
> > up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on ho=
w
> > willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
> > resolution.
> >=20
> > The case I felt went really badly was the TLS DNSSEC extension. =20
>=20
> I agree and while that case was bad, what=E2=80=99s worse is that no
> post-mortem was done here. I don=E2=80=99t think the IETF as an organiz=
ation
> will take any lesson from this, and that in itself makes it likely the
> same mistakes will be made again.

+1.

Perhaps we need a procedure for lodging complaints that aren't appeals,
and which result in a review and report.

> > So there was no question of appeal, really. =20
>=20
> I think also because in the appeal some of the same actors would appear=
.=20

The whole point of an appeal is to get the IETF chair, or the IAB, to
step in.  The route to appeal was mooted by the WG's choice to abandon
the work item.

(A cynic might wonder if that choice was not purposeful, precisely to
allow the original work to continue unimpeded [perhaps] on the ISE track
with an appeal mooted.  I do not believe that was the case.)

> > Not sure how to make it better, except maybe thus: it should be possi=
ble
> > to get a review of how a dispute was resolved not so much as an appea=
l,
> > but as a way to remediate problems to help alleviate _next_ dispute.
>=20
> Going back to this thread, when I read the subject of resignation and
> the first email, it seemed like I just stumbled across a hallway fight
> - people that demand unreasonable things. I don=E2=80=99t know how this
> conflict went from nothing to asking for someone=E2=80=99s resignation =
but
> clearly more people should have been involved earlier to de-escalate
> this. maybe that was tried and just not visible here? It would be good
> if there had been some kind of log that could have been referenced so
> we could determine why this failed to de-escalate.

+1

I wouldn't want to drag the ombudsman into this, but maybe that's the
next best step.

Nico
--=20


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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54:36AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 11-Mar-20 07:45, Nico Williams wrote:
> > If you get left on the rough side of consensus, whether rightly or
> > wrongly, and you wish to challenge this, it's really difficult.  You
> > might have to file an appeal, 
> 
> Well yes. There's no way round that - you're on the losing side, which
> has been a bad deal throughout human history. But at least there *is*
> an appeal process (which in practice there wouldn't be, if we used
> majority voting to make decisions). That doesn't indicate bias in
> the process.
> 
> > and if you do you'll annoy and anger
> > people who want their RFCs published a year ago.
> 
> Again, that doesn't indicate bias in the process.

It is a bias in the process.  And rightfully so IMO.  The point is that
to get relief requires sufficient motivation to seek it via an appeal.

Q: How many appeals have there been, and how many have succeeded?

But perhaps we can do post-mortems as a lighter-weight relief process,
where a reversal isn't the goal, but that a) it be determined if there
were errors (or perhaps harassment by the people complaining! it goes
both ways) and b) some chastisement.

> > What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
> > up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on how
> > willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
> > resolution.
> 
> Of course. But isn't that exactly why the appeals process exists? To
> put pressure on chairs and ADs to mediate? I assure you that it's
> much more uncomfortable for them to handle a formal appeal than
> to try mediation.

But there is a social dynamic.  Appeal and become the bad guy, lose good
will, lose friends, and find your future participation affected.  We're
talking about people who must have their RFCs published!

> I'll stop there because I have precisely zero knowledge of the case
> you cite.

That's fair, and it would be best if we didn't discuss it in this thread
anyways -- its details are not germane, but that such a case exists in
the broad strokes I used to describe it, is germane to the point that
the process of obtaining relief is costly and non-trivial.

I'd settle for not having that happen again than for getting a do-over
with an appeal.

Nico
-- 


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To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>, Alex Bogdanov <bogdanov=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:23:17 +1300
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On two specific points:

On 11-Mar-20 12:55, Nico Williams wrote:
...
> Q: How many appeals have there been, and how many have succeeded?

Officially, the history is at:

https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/appeals/
https://www.iab.org/appeals/

I think a lot of the responses are midway between "success" and "failure".
 
> But perhaps we can do post-mortems as a lighter-weight relief process,

On the surface that's an attractive idea, but if it is to be taken
seriously it would need just about as much work as an appeal.

     Brian


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--000000000000cddd1505a0894f16
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All you have to do is ask :-)

That's the awesome part about appeal transparency.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 6:56 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54:36AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > On 11-Mar-20 07:45, Nico Williams wrote:
> > > If you get left on the rough side of consensus, whether rightly or
> > > wrongly, and you wish to challenge this, it's really difficult.  You
> > > might have to file an appeal,
> >
> > Well yes. There's no way round that - you're on the losing side, which
> > has been a bad deal throughout human history. But at least there *is*
> > an appeal process (which in practice there wouldn't be, if we used
> > majority voting to make decisions). That doesn't indicate bias in
> > the process.
> >
> > > and if you do you'll annoy and anger
> > > people who want their RFCs published a year ago.
> >
> > Again, that doesn't indicate bias in the process.
>
> It is a bias in the process.  And rightfully so IMO.  The point is that
> to get relief requires sufficient motivation to seek it via an appeal.
>
> Q: How many appeals have there been, and how many have succeeded?
>

This isn't as readable as it was before the website redesign (IMO), but
https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/appeals/ lists the appeals to the
IESG and the IESG response. I'd note that "succeeded" isn't binary - there
are multiple responses that aren't thumbs up/thumbs down - but everybody
knows what happened.

The appeals that make it to the IAB are at https://www.iab.org/appeals/.
I'd note that the IAB tends to say "the IESG didn't think about X, so they
should try again", rather than "what the IESG should have done was Y". But,
again, everybody knows what happened.

I hope that's helpful.

Best,

Spencer


> But perhaps we can do post-mortems as a lighter-weight relief process,
> where a reversal isn't the goal, but that a) it be determined if there
> were errors (or perhaps harassment by the people complaining! it goes
> both ways) and b) some chastisement.
>
> > > What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
> > > up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on how
> > > willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
> > > resolution.
> >
> > Of course. But isn't that exactly why the appeals process exists? To
> > put pressure on chairs and ADs to mediate? I assure you that it's
> > much more uncomfortable for them to handle a formal appeal than
> > to try mediation.
>
> But there is a social dynamic.  Appeal and become the bad guy, lose good
> will, lose friends, and find your future participation affected.  We're
> talking about people who must have their RFCs published!
>
> > I'll stop there because I have precisely zero knowledge of the case
> > you cite.
>
> That's fair, and it would be best if we didn't discuss it in this thread
> anyways -- its details are not germane, but that such a case exists in
> the broad strokes I used to describe it, is germane to the point that
> the process of obtaining relief is costly and non-trivial.
>
> I'd settle for not having that happen again than for getting a do-over
> with an appeal.
>
> Nico
> --
>
>

--000000000000cddd1505a0894f16
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">All you have to do is ask :-)<div><br></d=
iv><div>That&#39;s the awesome part about appeal transparency.=C2=A0</div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 6:56 PM Nico Williams &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nico@cry=
ptonector.com">nico@cryptonector.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54:36AM +130=
0, Brian E Carpenter wrote:<br>
&gt; On 11-Mar-20 07:45, Nico Williams wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; If you get left on the rough side of consensus, whether rightly o=
r<br>
&gt; &gt; wrongly, and you wish to challenge this, it&#39;s really difficul=
t.=C2=A0 You<br>
&gt; &gt; might have to file an appeal, <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Well yes. There&#39;s no way round that - you&#39;re on the losing sid=
e, which<br>
&gt; has been a bad deal throughout human history. But at least there *is*<=
br>
&gt; an appeal process (which in practice there wouldn&#39;t be, if we used=
<br>
&gt; majority voting to make decisions). That doesn&#39;t indicate bias in<=
br>
&gt; the process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; and if you do you&#39;ll annoy and anger<br>
&gt; &gt; people who want their RFCs published a year ago.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Again, that doesn&#39;t indicate bias in the process.<br>
<br>
It is a bias in the process.=C2=A0 And rightfully so IMO.=C2=A0 The point i=
s that<br>
to get relief requires sufficient motivation to seek it via an appeal.<br>
<br>
Q: How many appeals have there been, and how many have succeeded?<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>This isn&#39;t as readable as it was before the =
website redesign (IMO), but=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/standards/=
process/appeals/">https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/appeals/</a>=C2=A0=
lists the appeals to the IESG and the IESG response. I&#39;d note that &quo=
t;succeeded&quot; isn&#39;t binary - there are multiple responses that aren=
&#39;t thumbs up/thumbs down - but everybody knows what happened.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>The appeals that make it to the IAB are at=C2=A0<a hr=
ef=3D"https://www.iab.org/appeals/">https://www.iab.org/appeals/</a>. I&#39=
;d note that the IAB tends to say &quot;the IESG didn&#39;t think about X, =
so they should try again&quot;, rather than &quot;what the IESG should have=
 done was Y&quot;. But, again, everybody knows what happened.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>I hope that&#39;s helpful.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">But perhaps we can do post-mortems as =
a lighter-weight relief process,<br>
where a reversal isn&#39;t the goal, but that a) it be determined if there<=
br>
were errors (or perhaps harassment by the people complaining! it goes<br>
both ways) and b) some chastisement.<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; What I&#39;ve encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal=
 or give<br>
&gt; &gt; up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends o=
n how<br>
&gt; &gt; willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate disp=
ute<br>
&gt; &gt; resolution.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Of course. But isn&#39;t that exactly why the appeals process exists? =
To<br>
&gt; put pressure on chairs and ADs to mediate? I assure you that it&#39;s<=
br>
&gt; much more uncomfortable for them to handle a formal appeal than<br>
&gt; to try mediation.<br>
<br>
But there is a social dynamic.=C2=A0 Appeal and become the bad guy, lose go=
od<br>
will, lose friends, and find your future participation affected.=C2=A0 We&#=
39;re<br>
talking about people who must have their RFCs published!<br>
<br>
&gt; I&#39;ll stop there because I have precisely zero knowledge of the cas=
e<br>
&gt; you cite.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s fair, and it would be best if we didn&#39;t discuss it in this t=
hread<br>
anyways -- its details are not germane, but that such a case exists in<br>
the broad strokes I used to describe it, is germane to the point that<br>
the process of obtaining relief is costly and non-trivial.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d settle for not having that happen again than for getting a do-over<=
br>
with an appeal.<br>
<br>
Nico<br>
-- <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000cddd1505a0894f16--


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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>, Alex Bogdanov <bogdanov=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 01:23:17PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On two specific points:
> 
> On 11-Mar-20 12:55, Nico Williams wrote:
> ...
> > Q: How many appeals have there been, and how many have succeeded?
> 
> Officially, the history is at:
> 
> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/appeals/
> https://www.iab.org/appeals/
> 
> I think a lot of the responses are midway between "success" and "failure".

I'll take a look, thanks.  (I have looked here before, but never made a
tally of results.)

> > But perhaps we can do post-mortems as a lighter-weight relief process,
> 
> On the surface that's an attractive idea, but if it is to be taken
> seriously it would need just about as much work as an appeal.

Perhaps so, but it might be more appealing (punny) than appealing on
account of it being less disruptive to the work in question.  Moreover,
an ombudsman could conduct a review with relatively little effort on the
part of the participants.  The outcome would be a report, not a
potential reversal or rehashing of past decisions, but future behavior
might be modified.

Nico
-- 


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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On 10/3/20 14:55, Warren Kumari wrote:
[...]
> 
> I realize that +1 is largely content free, but I believe that appeals
> and recalls are an incredibly important part of the IETF process -
> they are the reason that we can have a process which uses rough
> consensus (not voting), and where our process has the flexibility to
> (as Spencer would say) "Do the right thing!", and not blindly follow
> checklists. In order for these to work, people need to be able, and
> comfortable invoking appeals and recalls[0]...

Agreed.

In that light, may I ask that question #10 of 
https://www.ietf.org/chairs/document-writeups/document-writeup-working-group-documents/ 
  be rephrased to something else?

At least for non-native English speakers, the phrase "Has anyone 
threatened an appeal" gives Appeals a very negative connotation...

(Is a formal update to RFC4858 needed for that?)

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On 10 Mar 2020, at 14:45, Nico Williams wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:11:47PM -0500, Pete Resnick wrote:
>>
>> Nico, could you (or others) expand on this?
>
> Yes.  Challenging consensus is difficult.  People with substantive
> commentary sometimes get tanks driven over them.

It is difficult, and I have seen those tanks in the past. What I would 
say is that we've gotten to a point where dispute resolution and appeals 
are seen as such a big deal that people definitely get their armaments 
going quickly. I'm hoping this discussion can give us (participants and 
leadership) some paths back to being a bit more sane about this. More 
below.

>> I really think this is worthy of a separate discussion: What is it 
>> about the
>> current process that you find biased against those who bring up a 
>> dispute?
>
> If you get left on the rough side of consensus, whether rightly or
> wrongly, and you wish to challenge this, it's really difficult.  You
> might have to file an appeal, and if you do you'll annoy and anger
> people who want their RFCs published a year ago.

This to me says that we've got to start dealing with the disputes 
earlier in the process to avoid the "annoy and anger" part (though 
sometimes that will be unavoidable). At the time of the WG decision, 
before anything goes to the IESG, it's time to have a discussion with 
the chair. That's before 2026 6.5.1 imagines it, but I don't think 
that's a problem for the first steps.

>> (I take it we're talking about RFC 2026 section 6.5
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5>.) Have you 
>> encountered a
>> bias in undertaking such a dispute?
>
> What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or give
> up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on how
> willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
> resolution.

Framing the discussion in the terms that 2026 uses is a good idea: 
Either "my views have not been adequately considered by the WG", or "the 
WG has made an incorrect technical choice". I'd start off with, "I think 
you may have blown the consensus call on this point. I'd like to discuss 
that." Not accusatory or angry, just stating the facts. If the chair 
reacts badly to that, let the AD (and perhaps some others) know. All of 
us who chair should learn how to deal with such comments calmly and 
seriously. If you and the chair both take it seriously, it can only 
improve the output of the WG for the chair to consider it.

> There's no easy way to challenge a consensus to drop a work item.  
> What
> are you gonna do, appeal asking the IAB to force a WG to take on a 
> work
> item it doesn't want to?  A WG could even conclude out of spite if
> forced to do something it doesn't want to.

You're right that forcing the WG to do work isn't feasible. But I could 
imagine other choices. Not knowing the specifics, though, I don't want 
to speculate on what might have worked.

> So there was no question of appeal, really.  But I do feel that the
> chairs and responsible AD did not help enough ahead of the WG throwing
> its hands up in the air -- that might be an incorrect perception 
> though,
> as maybe the chairs and AD were simply unable to get the strongest
> personalities on either side of the dispute to compromise, but, too, I
> think they could have called the consensus rather than wait till the 
> WG
> threw in the towel on the work item.

I think you're probably right. I know I've chaired in the past when I 
didn't see the signs of bad things happening and failed to get out in 
front of it. But the appeal, even if fruitless in the end, would have at 
least made the chair, the AD, and IESG do a bit of post-mortem to figure 
out what went wrong, so we should figure out some way to make them less 
painful (as per your last paragraph).

>> I have no doubt that this process is under-used (as a chair and an 
>> AD, I had
>
> I've reached out to chairs and ADs a number of times before, and that
> has worked, and can work where they're willing to.

That's good to hear.

> It's difficult to go beyond that to appeals.  We do have to be done at
> some point with any one work item.  There is good will to tend to.

On a technical point where someone feels that the WG truly failed to see 
a serious problem, it's worth certainly worth doing. But even in the 
more process cases, where it was a blown consensus call, I do think it's 
worth going through, even if it doesn't change the outcome for any 
particular work item and is just for post-mortem purposes.

> The OP of this thread's parent thread clearly felt much more strongly
> about their case than anyone did about the TLS DNSSEC extension.  No 
> one
> in the latter case felt so aggrieved as to post a "resignation 
> request".

Yeah, I'll reply to Alan after this. I think the case should also be 
instructive.

>> to actively encourage people to use the dispute process instead of 
>> just
>> giving up), but I've always assumed that it was just people not 
>> wanting to
>> "rock the boat", or not wanting to be seen as a "complainer", or 
>> thought
>
> There is definitely some of that.

I did a little review some time ago of the appeals brought to the IESG. 
Approximately half of them were perfectly well-reasoned appeals made by 
serious people in the community, and as I remember in the majority of 
them the IESG said, "Oh, yeah, that wasn't a good outcome; let's fix 
it." The approximately other half of the appeals were made by a small 
number of people who I'd call "serial appealers". It's the latter half 
that makes people feel like complainers (by joining that club), but if 
you remove those folks, I think you'll find the outcome of the process 
is pretty good and nobody will call you a complainer for it. (No, I will 
not reveal my criteria for deciding between the two halves. Left as an 
exercise for the reader.)

> Or at some point a party gets exhausted and gives up.

That, of course, is a horrible outcome and what we need to fix.

> Some of this is that we're a somewhat academic bunch (RFCs count as
> papers now, no?) and you know how it is with academics: the lower the
> stakes the worse the infighting.

As a recovering academic, I know what you mean.

> Not sure how to make it better, except maybe thus: it should be 
> possible
> to get a review of how a dispute was resolved not so much as an 
> appeal,
> but as a way to remediate problems to help alleviate _next_ dispute.

Absolutely. Every IETF plenary, the chairs have a lunch meeting on a 
variety of topics. Doing something like this as a regular topic (and 
revealing the conclusions to the community) would be a great idea. That 
said, I'm still hopeful we can make the dispute resolution and appeals 
process better than it is now.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Status of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
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Folks,

Ping?


On 6/3/20 06:25, Fernando Gont wrote:
> Marting & Bruno,
> 
> May I ask what's the status of this I-D?  -
> 
> On one hand, both of you declared consensus to move it forward. On 
> another hand, the authors keep making changes to address comments (good) 
> so what the wg will ship will be different from what the document on 
> which you claimed consensus. Besides, the datatracker lists the document 
> as "in WGLC".
> 
> So:
> What's the status of this document?
> And.. are you planning to do a second WGLC?
> 
> 
> Thanks,


-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 11:54:03PM -0400, Pete Resnick wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2020, at 14:45, Nico Williams wrote:
> 
> This to me says that we've got to start dealing with the disputes
> earlier in the process to avoid the "annoy and anger" part (though
> sometimes that will be unavoidable). At the time of the WG decision,
> before anything goes to the IESG, it's time to have a discussion with
> the chair. That's before 2026 6.5.1 imagines it, but I don't think
> that's a problem for the first steps.

Fair enough.

> > What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or
> > give up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends
> > on how willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate
> > dispute resolution.
> 
> Framing the discussion in the terms that 2026 uses is a good idea:
> Either "my views have not been adequately considered by the WG", or
> "the WG has made an incorrect technical choice". I'd start off with,
> "I think you may have blown the consensus call on this point. I'd like
> to discuss that." Not accusatory or angry, just stating the facts. If
> the chair reacts badly to that, let the AD (and perhaps some others)
> know. All of us who chair should learn how to deal with such comments
> calmly and seriously. If you and the chair both take it seriously, it
> can only improve the output of the WG for the chair to consider it.

There are ways in which chairs and authors can engage in all sorts of
passive-aggressive behaviors that are difficult to pin down.  E.g.,
someone makes a substantive comment during WGLC, WGLC ends, and then no
write-up ensues, nor consensus calls on the issue, for weeks.  When you
finally twist the chairs' arms into calling for consensus then they
don't call it for a while.  Then at some point the commenter is to blame
for delaying the I-D's progress.

At what point in such a sequence would one reach out to the AD?

Delays of that sort happen all the time for non-nefarious reasons, and
we all prefer not to be accused of nefarious reasons for such delays.
If one were to reach for an AD every time there was such a delay... then
at the very least one should also never be the source of such delays,
for example, and anyways, one may quickly be relegated to the PITA list.

The SAA function may well teach us all how to engage in aggressive
behavior that superficially passes for acceptable.

> > There's no easy way to challenge a consensus to drop a work item.
> > What are you gonna do, appeal asking the IAB to force a WG to take
> > on a work item it doesn't want to?  A WG could even conclude out of
> > spite if forced to do something it doesn't want to.
> 
> You're right that forcing the WG to do work isn't feasible. But I
> could imagine other choices. Not knowing the specifics, though, I
> don't want to speculate on what might have worked.

Technically speaking it was the chairs calling the WG's consensus to
drop the work item.  That decision would be subject to appeal, but we
felt an appeal was not worth the trouble (but see below), and that that
decision would be mode difficult to prevail on on appeal than the
alternative adverse decision that we were in the rough.

> > So there was no question of appeal, really.  But I do feel that the
> > chairs and responsible AD did not help enough ahead of the WG
> > throwing its hands up in the air -- that might be an incorrect
> > perception though, as maybe the chairs and AD were simply unable to
> > get the strongest personalities on either side of the dispute to
> > compromise, but, too, I think they could have called the consensus
> > rather than wait till the WG threw in the towel on the work item.
> 
> I think you're probably right. I know I've chaired in the past when I
> didn't see the signs of bad things happening and failed to get out in
> front of it.  But the appeal, even if fruitless in the end, would have
> at least made the chair, the AD, and IESG do a bit of post-mortem to
> figure out what went wrong, so we should figure out some way to make
> them less painful (as per your last paragraph).

Aha.  The appeal process _is_ the only post-mortem process we have.

> > > I have no doubt that this process is under-used (as a chair and an
> > > AD, I had
> > 
> > I've reached out to chairs and ADs a number of times before, and that
> > has worked, and can work where they're willing to.
> 
> That's good to hear.

IMO the process works well most of the time.

> > It's difficult to go beyond that to appeals.  We do have to be done
> > at some point with any one work item.  There is good will to tend
> > to.
> 
> On a technical point where someone feels that the WG truly failed to
> see a serious problem, it's worth certainly worth doing. But even in
> the more process cases, where it was a blown consensus call, I do
> think it's worth going through, even if it doesn't change the outcome
> for any particular work item and is just for post-mortem purposes.

Ok.

> I did a little review some time ago of the appeals brought to the
> IESG.  Approximately half of them were perfectly well-reasoned appeals
> made by serious people in the community, and as I remember in the
> majority of them the IESG said, "Oh, yeah, that wasn't a good outcome;
> let's fix it." The approximately other half of the appeals were made
> by a small number of people who I'd call "serial appealers". It's the
> latter half that makes people feel like complainers (by joining that
> club), but if you remove those folks, I think you'll find the outcome
> of the process is pretty good and nobody will call you a complainer
> for it. (No, I will not reveal my criteria for deciding between the
> two halves. Left as an exercise for the reader.)

There are rather few appeals on record.  Lately they happen less than
yearly.

> > Or at some point a party gets exhausted and gives up.
> 
> That, of course, is a horrible outcome and what we need to fix.

If they were right, sure.  It's tempting to conclude that being
exhausted is an admission to being wrong.  If a crowd of usual suspects
(aren't must of us members of such crowds at IETF?) can muster loud and
repeated assertions that the complainant is wrong, it can start to seem
like they're right, and the other party will get discouraged.

> > Not sure how to make it better, except maybe thus: it should be
> > possible to get a review of how a dispute was resolved not so much
> > as an appeal, but as a way to remediate problems to help alleviate
> > _next_ dispute.
> 
> Absolutely. Every IETF plenary, the chairs have a lunch meeting on a variety
> of topics. Doing something like this as a regular topic (and revealing the
> conclusions to the community) would be a great idea. [...]

Sure, but who shall bring up a particular dispute at that meeting, given
that it's ex-parte?

>                                               [...]. That said, I'm still
> hopeful we can make the dispute resolution and appeals process better than
> it is now.

Just how busy is the ombudsman anyways?  Maybe we can give them more to
do.

Nico
-- 


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Thread-Topic: Re:[spring] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-07.txt
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Subject: Re: [spring] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-07.txt
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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
CC: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
CC: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:52:07 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/s5klJ1T_xbi1RfX9HHVF52dpnBU>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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> On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:59 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> They are the same thing.=20

Ok, so how do I get on 2 different processing paths for the same thing =
entry as Section 4.1 cannot lead to processing of an upper-layer header =
as far as I can tell, yet section 4.1.1 is talking about processing the =
upper layer header for the same FIB entry.

1) Packet arrives, FIB lookup on packet destination address returns =
local End SID entry.

2) Start processing the extension headers and arrive at the SRH (which =
comes prior to the upper-layer header.

   =46rom RFC8200 the extension header order:
      IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header <------------------------------------ SRH
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header <-------------------------------- Upper Layer =
Header

3) Process the SRH according to 4.1 for which there is no exit that =
leads to processing any more headers.

Oh wait...

Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it? If this is the =
case then it would make things *way* more clear for the document to =
state this outright. "When a packet's DA returns a FIB entry for a local =
END SID, but the packet does not contain an SRH ..." or something like =
that.

Thanks,
Chris.


>=20
> Section 3:
>   ...
>   Its processing is defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]
>   section 4.3 and reproduced here as a reminder.
>=20
>      Without constraining the details of an implementation, the SR
>      segment endpoint node creates Forwarding Information Base (FIB)
>      entries for its local SIDs.
>=20
>      When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
>      longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address.
>      This lookup can return any of the following:
>=20
>      - A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID
>=20
>      - A FIB entry that represents a local interface, not locally
>        instantiated as an SRv6 SID
>=20
>      - A FIB entry that represents a non-local route
>=20
>      - No Match
>=20
> Section 4:
>>  Each FIB entry indicates the behavior associated with a SID instance
>>  and its parameters.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Pablo.=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 22:01
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Chris,
>>=20
>> Thanks for going through the document.
>> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 =
(End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>>=20
>> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a =
new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the =
BSID.
>> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM =
pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for =
transmission.
>>=20
>> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet =
with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
>> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper =
Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>>=20
>> Hope it clarifies.
>=20
>    I'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me to =
a more basic question:
>=20
>    Section 4.1 described the basic "FIB entry" "End" which says:
>=20
>      "When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End =
SID, N does..."
>=20
>    So it's talking about a FIB entry for a "local End SID".
>=20
>    Section 4.1.1 says:
>=20
>      "When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>       entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID"
>=20
>    It's talking about a "FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END =
SID"
>=20
>    I'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s =
calling a FIB Entry a "local End SID" 4.1.1 is calling something =
(different?) a "FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID".
>=20
>    The terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I =
feel the document expects me to make one.
>=20
>    Thanks,
>    Chris.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Pablo.
>>=20
>> [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps =
<chopps@chopps.org>
>> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>> To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>> Subject: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>=20
>>   In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is =
indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain =
in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>>=20
>>   "
>>      When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local =
End.BM
>>      SID, does:
>>=20
>>     S01. When an SRH is processed {
>>     S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>>   ....
>>                  Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>     S04.   }
>>     S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {
>>   ....
>>                  Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>     S07.   }
>>     S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last =
Entry+1)) {
>>   ....
>>                  Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>     S11.   }
>>   ....
>>     S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to =
the
>>               topmost label.
>>     S16. }
>>   "
>>=20
>>   The text then says:
>>=20
>>      When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>      entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the =
packet
>>      as per Section 4.1.1.
>>=20
>>   Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this =
point?
>>=20
>>   Thanks,
>>   Chris.
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   spring mailing list
>>   spring@ietf.org
>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:16:39 +0000
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/zjKOCMsFRxruBRSZwFobMGzTuU8>
Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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--_000_AM0PR0302MB3217ABD819088B5FFF7B16509DFC0AM0PR0302MB3217_
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Pablo, Christian and all,

I respectfully disagree with the statement " The processing defined in dra=
ft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is aligned with the SRH".



Specifically, from my POV the SRH draft<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26> does not define anything that looks t=
o me as PSP or USP. And this is strictly orthogonal to whether these opera=
tions are or are not allowed by RFC 8200.



I have already pointed to this fact in my message to the SPRING and 6MAN W=
Gs<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/jGV6jAFHYlX9jst6e3v-pHQy4V=
Q/> from 27.02.20, but I have not seen any response to that so far.



What, if anything, do I miss?



And, if I am right, how can the SRH draft (already in AUTH48 in the RFC Ed=
itor queue) be updated to accommodate this functionality?



Regards,

Sasha



Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com



-----Original Message-----
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pablo=20Camarillo (pca=
maril)
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 2:17 PM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng-12



Hi Chris,



The processing defined in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is al=
igned with the SRH.

Particularly see https://clicktime.symantec.com/3Fk6N1MiGv1a24wAEJBm4Aq6H2=
?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing=
-header-26%23section-4.3



> Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup yield=
s a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it?



It is not *only* covering that case (although that is one of the cases, th=
ere are others). You process the extension header chain as defined in RFC8=
200.

When processing the SRH you follow the processing of 4.1; If you get to th=
e Upper Layer Header, you process it as per 4.1.1



Thank you,

Pablo.



-----Original Message-----

From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.org>>

Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 12:06

To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com<mailto:pcamaril@cisco=
.com>>

Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.org>>, "spring=
@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org=
>>

Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng-12







    > On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:59 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D=
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> =
wrote:

    >

    > Hi Chris,

    >

    > They are the same thing.



    Ok, so how do I get on 2 different processing paths for the same thing=
 entry as Section 4.1 cannot lead to processing of an upper-layer header a=
s far as I can tell, yet section 4.1.1 is talking about processing the upp=
er layer header for the same FIB entry.



    1) Packet arrives, FIB lookup on packet destination address returns lo=
cal End SID entry.



    2) Start processing the extension headers and arrive at the SRH (which=
 comes prior to the upper-layer header.



       From RFC8200 the extension header order:

          IPv6 header

          Hop-by-Hop Options header

          Destination Options header (note 1)

          Routing header <------------------------------------ SRH

          Fragment header

          Authentication header (note 2)

          Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)

          Destination Options header (note 3)

          Upper-Layer header <-------------------------------- Upper Layer=
 Header



    3) Process the SRH according to 4.1 for which there is no exit that le=
ads to processing any more headers.



    Oh wait...



    Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup yie=
lds a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it? If this is the case =
then it would make things *way* more clear for the document to state this =
outright. "When a packet's DA returns a FIB entry for a local END SID, but=
 the packet does not contain an SRH ..." or something like that.



    Thanks,

    Chris.





    >

    > Section 3:

    >   ...

    >   Its processing is defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header=
]

    >   section 4.3 and reproduced here as a reminder.

    >

    >      Without constraining the details of an implementation, the SR

    >      segment endpoint node creates Forwarding Information Base (FIB)=


    >      entries for its local SIDs.

    >

    >      When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs =
a

    >      longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address.=


    >      This lookup can return any of the following:

    >

    >      - A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID

    >

    >      - A FIB entry that represents a local interface, not locally

    >        instantiated as an SRv6 SID

    >

    >      - A FIB entry that represents a non-local route

    >

    >      - No Match

    >

    > Section 4:

    >>  Each FIB entry indicates the behavior associated with a SID instan=
ce

    >>  and its parameters.

    >

    > Thank you,

    > Pablo.

    >

    > -----Original Message-----

    > From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.org>>

    > Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 22:01

    > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com<mailto:pcamaril=
@cisco.com>>

    > Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.org>>, "=
spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ie=
tf.org>>

    > Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro=
gramming-12

    >

    >

    >

    >> On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D=
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> =
wrote:

    >>

    >> Hi Chris,

    >>

    >> Thanks for going through the document.

    >> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.=
15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].

    >>

    >> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a =
new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the B=
SID.

    >> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM pse=
udocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for transmissi=
on.

    >>

    >> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet=
 with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.

    >> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper La=
yer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).

    >>

    >> Hope it clarifies.

    >

    >    I'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me t=
o a more basic question:

    >

    >    Section 4.1 described the basic "FIB entry" "End" which says:

    >

    >      "When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local E=
nd SID, N does..."

    >

    >    So it's talking about a FIB entry for a "local End SID".

    >

    >    Section 4.1.1 says:

    >

    >      "When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matching a =
FIB

    >       entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID"

    >

    >    It's talking about a "FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 E=
ND SID"

    >

    >    I'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s call=
ing a FIB Entry a "local End SID" 4.1.1 is calling something (different?) =
a "FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID".

    >

    >    The terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I =
feel the document expects me to make one.

    >

    >    Thanks,

    >    Chris.

    >

    >

    >>

    >> Thanks,

    >> Pablo.

    >>

    >> [1]. https://clicktime.symantec.com/3JQLFT39w4G21fVcTdFS4s46H2?u=3D=
https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc8402%23section-5

    >>

    >>

    >> -----Original Message-----

    >> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g>> on behalf of Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.o=
rg>>

    >> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50

    >> To: "spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org<mail=
to:spring@ietf.org>>

    >> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.org>>

    >> Subject: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra=
mming-12

    >>

    >>   In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is=
 indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain i=
n all cases is terminated. e.g.,

    >>

    >>   "

    >>      When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local E=
nd.BM

    >>      SID, does:

    >>

    >>     S01. When an SRH is processed {

    >>     S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {

    >>   ....

    >>                  Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet=
.

    >>     S04.   }

    >>     S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {

    >>   ....

    >>                  Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet=
.

    >>     S07.   }

    >>     S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entr=
y+1)) {

    >>   ....

    >>                  Interrupt packet processing and discard=20the pack=
et.

    >>     S11.   }

    >>   ....

    >>     S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to=
 the

    >>               topmost label.

    >>     S16. }

    >>   "

    >>

    >>   The text then says:

    >>

    >>      When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a =
FIB

    >>      entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the =
packet

    >>      as per Section 4.1.1.

    >>

    >>   Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this poi=
nt?

    >>

    >>   Thanks,

    >>   Chris.

    >>   _______________________________________________

    >>   spring mailing list

    >>   spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>

    >>   https://clicktime.symantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhtt=
ps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring

    >>

    >>

    >> _______________________________________________

    >> spring mailing list

    >> spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>

    >> https://clicktime.symantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhttps=
%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring

    >

    >

    >

    > _______________________________________________

    > spring mailing list

    > spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>

    > https://clicktime.symantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhttps%=
3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring









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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Pablo, Christian and all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I respectfully disagree with the statement &quot=
; <span style=3D"background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">
The processing defined in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is al=
igned with the SRH</span>&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Specifically, from my POV the <a href=3D"https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26">
SRH draft</a> does not define anything that looks to me as PSP or USP. And=
 this is strictly orthogonal to whether these operations are or are not al=
lowed by RFC 8200.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I have already pointed to this fact in my <a hre=
f=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/jGV6jAFHYlX9jst6e3v-pHQy=
4VQ/">
message to the SPRING and 6MAN WGs</a> from 27.02.20, but I have not seen =
any response to that so far.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">What, if anything, do I miss?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">And, if I am right, how can the SRH draft (alrea=
dy in AUTH48 in the RFC Editor queue) be updated to accommodate this funct=
ionality?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sasha<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Office: &#43;972-39266302<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-549=
266302<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.=
com<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf.org&gt; On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo =
(pcamaril)<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 2:17 PM<br>
To: Christian Hopps &lt;chopps@chopps.org&gt;<br>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng-12</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The processing defined in draft-ietf-spring-srv6=
-network-programming is aligned with the SRH.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Particularly see <a href=3D"https://clicktime.sy=
mantec.com/3Fk6N1MiGv1a24wAEJBm4Aq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fh=
tml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sy=
mantec.com/3Fk6N1MiGv1a24wAEJBm4Aq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fh=
tml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3</span></a><o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the c=
ase where my FIB lookup yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH =
in it?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">It is not *only* covering that case (although th=
at is one of the cases, there are others). You process the extension heade=
r chain as defined in RFC8200.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">When processing the SRH you follow the processin=
g of 4.1; If you get to the Upper Layer Header, you process it as per 4.1.=
1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Pablo. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">From: Christian Hopps &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chop=
ps@chopps.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">chopp=
s@chopps.org</span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 12:06<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">To: &quot;Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisco.com"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-=
decoration:none">pcamaril@cisco.com</span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Cc: Christian Hopps &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chopps=
@chopps.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">chopps@=
chopps.org</span></a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a>=
&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;te=
xt-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spr=
ing-srv6-network-programming-12<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; On Mar 11, 2020, at=
 5:59 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril=3D40ci=
sco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:no=
ne">pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; They are the same t=
hing. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ok, so how do I get on 2=
 different processing paths for the same thing entry as Section 4.1 cannot=
 lead to processing of an upper-layer header as far as I can tell, yet sec=
tion 4.1.1 is talking about processing the upper layer header
 for the same FIB entry.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1) Packet arrives, FIB l=
ookup on packet destination address returns local End SID entry.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2) Start processing the =
extension headers and arrive at the SRH (which comes prior to the upper-la=
yer header.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From R=
FC8200 the extension header order:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; IPv6 header<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Hop-by-Hop Options header<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Destination Options header (note 1)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Routing header &lt;------------------------------------ SRH<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Fragment header<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Authentication header (note 2)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Destination Options header (note 3)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Upper-Layer header &lt;-------------------------------- Upper Layer=
 Header<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3) Process the SRH accor=
ding to 4.1 for which there is no exit that leads to processing any more h=
eaders.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Oh wait...<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Is 4.1.1 covering (and o=
nly covering) the case where my FIB lookup yields a local End SID, but the=
 packet has no SRH in it? If this is the case then it would make things *w=
ay* more clear for the document to state this outright. &quot;When
 a packet's DA returns a=20FIB entry for a local END SID, but the packet d=
oes not contain an SRH ...&quot; or something like that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Chris.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Section 3:<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Its processi=
ng is defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; section 4.3 =
and reproduced here as a reminder.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Without constraining the details of an implementation, the SR<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; segment endpoint node creates Forwarding Information Base (FIB)<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; entries for its local SIDs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs =
a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; This lookup can return any of the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; - A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; - A FIB entry that represents a local interface, not locally<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; instantiated as an SRv6 SID<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; - A FIB entry that represents a non-local route<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; - No Match<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Section 4:<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; Each FIB entry=
 indicates the behavior associated with a SID instance<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; and its parame=
ters.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Thank you,<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Pablo. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; -----Original Messa=
ge-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; From: Christian Hopps &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:chopps@chopps.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;tex=
t-decoration:none">chopps@chopps.org</span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Date: Tuesday, 10 March =
2020 at 22:01<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; To: &quot;Pablo Camarill=
o (pcamaril)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril@cisco.com"><span style=3D=
"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">pcamaril@cisco.com</span></a>&gt;<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Cc: Christian Hopps &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:chopps@chopps.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-=
decoration:none">chopps@chopps.org</span></a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto=
:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">sp=
ring@ietf.org</span></a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;te=
xt-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Subject: Re: [spring] Qu=
estion on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; On Mar 10, 2020=
, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pcamaril=3D=
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoratio=
n:none">pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Hi Chris,<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Thanks for goin=
g through the document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; The behaviors 4.13 (=
End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 (End.BM) correspond to B=
inding SIDs [1].<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; As a result of =
4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a new IPv6 header and an=
 SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the BSID.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Once the new IPv6 he=
ader is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM pseudocode passes this packet =
to the IPv6 module of the router for transmission.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Normally the Up=
per-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet with a BSID, since yo=
u have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; That said, when the =
ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer Header processing is th=
e same to End (4.1).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Hope it clarifi=
es.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I=
'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me to a more b=
asic question:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S=
ection 4.1 described the basic &quot;FIB entry&quot; &quot;End&quot; which=
 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; &quot;When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a lo=
cal End SID, N does...&quot;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S=
o it's talking about a FIB entry for a &quot;local End SID&quot;.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S=
ection 4.1.1 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; &quot;When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matchi=
ng a FIB<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID&quot;<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I=
t's talking about a &quot;FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SI=
D&quot;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I=
'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s calling a FIB =
Entry a &quot;local End SID&quot; 4.1.1 is calling something (different?) =
a &quot;FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID&quot;.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; T=
he terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I feel the d=
ocument expects me to make one.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; T=
hanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Chris.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Pablo.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; [1]. <a href=3D=
"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3JQLFT39w4G21fVcTdFS4s46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc8402%23section-5">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sy=
mantec.com/3JQLFT39w4G21fVcTdFS4s46H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fh=
tml%2Frfc8402%23section-5</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; -----Original M=
essage-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; From: spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;te=
xt-decoration:none">spring-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Ch=
ristian Hopps &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chopps@chopps.org"><span style=3D"colo=
r:windowtext;text-decoration:none">chopps@chopps.org</span></a>&gt;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Date: Saturday, 7 Ma=
rch 2020 at 12:50<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; To: &quot;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:n=
one">spring@ietf.org</span></a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.or=
g"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</=
span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Cc: Christian Hopps =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chopps@chopps.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;t=
ext-decoration:none">chopps@chopps.org</span></a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Subject: [spring] Qu=
estion on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; In =
sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is indicated. =
As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain in all cases =
is terminated. e.g.,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; &qu=
ot;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End=
.BM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; SID, does:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; S01. When an SRH is processed {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S02.&nbsp;&nbsp; If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ....<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.<o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S04.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S05.&nbsp;&nbsp; If (IPv6 Hop Limit &lt;=3D 1) {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ....<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.<o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S07.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S09.&nbsp;&nbsp; If ((Last Entry &gt; max_LE) or (Segments Left &gt; (=
Last Entry&#43;1)) {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ....<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.<o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S11.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ....<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S15.&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission=
 to the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;topmost la=
bel.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; S16. }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The=
 text then says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching=
 a FIB<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the pa=
cket<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; as per Section 4.1.1.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Why=
 would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this point?<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tha=
nks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Chris.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ________=
_______________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; spring m=
ailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:n=
one">spring@ietf.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D=
"https://clicktime.symantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sy=
mantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmai=
lman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; _______________=
________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; spring mailing list<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">sprin=
g@ietf.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://c=
licktime.symantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet=
f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://clicktime.sy=
mantec.com/35TnxQkKM3FCs6rMYT62Jgt6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmai=
lman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p>
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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
CC: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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> On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> The processing defined in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =
is aligned with the SRH.=20
> Particularly see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sect=
ion-4.3
>=20
>> Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it?
>=20
> It is not *only* covering that case (although that is one of the =
cases, there are others). You process the extension header chain as =
defined in RFC8200.

Right I had quoted the 8200 processing order so I'm using that as a =
guide.

> When processing the SRH you follow the processing of 4.1; If you get =
to the Upper Layer Header, you process it as per 4.1.1

This is what I'm getting at though, if there is an SRH you will enter =
section 4.1 prior to 4.1.1, and if you are in 4.1 there is no processing =
path that leads to the upper-layer header. So AFAICT the only way to get =
to section 4.1.1 is if the FIB entry is a local END SID and there is no =
SRH.

Thanks,
Chris.

>=20
> Thank you,
> Pablo.=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 12:06
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:59 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Chris,
>>=20
>> They are the same thing.=20
>=20
>    Ok, so how do I get on 2 different processing paths for the same =
thing entry as Section 4.1 cannot lead to processing of an upper-layer =
header as far as I can tell, yet section 4.1.1 is talking about =
processing the upper layer header for the same FIB entry.
>=20
>    1) Packet arrives, FIB lookup on packet destination address returns =
local End SID entry.
>=20
>    2) Start processing the extension headers and arrive at the SRH =
(which comes prior to the upper-layer header.
>=20
>       =46rom RFC8200 the extension header order:
>          IPv6 header
>          Hop-by-Hop Options header
>          Destination Options header (note 1)
>          Routing header <------------------------------------ SRH
>          Fragment header
>          Authentication header (note 2)
>          Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
>          Destination Options header (note 3)
>          Upper-Layer header <-------------------------------- Upper =
Layer Header
>=20
>    3) Process the SRH according to 4.1 for which there is no exit that =
leads to processing any more headers.
>=20
>    Oh wait...
>=20
>    Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it? If this is the =
case then it would make things *way* more clear for the document to =
state this outright. "When a packet's DA returns a FIB entry for a local =
END SID, but the packet does not contain an SRH ..." or something like =
that.
>=20
>    Thanks,
>    Chris.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Section 3:
>>  ...
>>  Its processing is defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]
>>  section 4.3 and reproduced here as a reminder.
>>=20
>>     Without constraining the details of an implementation, the SR
>>     segment endpoint node creates Forwarding Information Base (FIB)
>>     entries for its local SIDs.
>>=20
>>     When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
>>     longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address.
>>     This lookup can return any of the following:
>>=20
>>     - A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID
>>=20
>>     - A FIB entry that represents a local interface, not locally
>>       instantiated as an SRv6 SID
>>=20
>>     - A FIB entry that represents a non-local route
>>=20
>>     - No Match
>>=20
>> Section 4:
>>> Each FIB entry indicates the behavior associated with a SID instance
>>> and its parameters.
>>=20
>> Thank you,
>> Pablo.=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 22:01
>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for going through the document.
>>> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and =
4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>>>=20
>>> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a =
new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the =
BSID.
>>> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM =
pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for =
transmission.
>>>=20
>>> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet =
with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
>>> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper =
Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>>>=20
>>> Hope it clarifies.
>>=20
>>   I'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me to =
a more basic question:
>>=20
>>   Section 4.1 described the basic "FIB entry" "End" which says:
>>=20
>>     "When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End =
SID, N does..."
>>=20
>>   So it's talking about a FIB entry for a "local End SID".
>>=20
>>   Section 4.1.1 says:
>>=20
>>     "When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>      entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID"
>>=20
>>   It's talking about a "FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END =
SID"
>>=20
>>   I'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s =
calling a FIB Entry a "local End SID" 4.1.1 is calling something =
(different?) a "FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID".
>>=20
>>   The terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I =
feel the document expects me to make one.
>>=20
>>   Thanks,
>>   Chris.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Pablo.
>>>=20
>>> [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps =
<chopps@chopps.org>
>>> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>>> To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>> Subject: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>>=20
>>>  In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is =
indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain =
in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>>>=20
>>>  "
>>>     When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local =
End.BM
>>>     SID, does:
>>>=20
>>>    S01. When an SRH is processed {
>>>    S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>>>  ....
>>>                 Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>    S04.   }
>>>    S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {
>>>  ....
>>>                 Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>    S07.   }
>>>    S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last =
Entry+1)) {
>>>  ....
>>>                 Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>    S11.   }
>>>  ....
>>>    S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to =
the
>>>              topmost label.
>>>    S16. }
>>>  "
>>>=20
>>>  The text then says:
>>>=20
>>>     When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>>     entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the =
packet
>>>     as per Section 4.1.1.
>>>=20
>>>  Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this =
point?
>>>=20
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  Chris.
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  spring mailing list
>>>  spring@ietf.org
>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20


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From nobody Wed Mar 11 11:16:34 2020
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From: "Pete Resnick" <resnick@episteme.net>
To: "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca>, "Nico Williams" <nico@cryptonector.com>,  "Alex Bogdanov" <bogdanov=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "SPRING WG List" <spring@ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On 10 Mar 2020, at 17:44, Andrew Alston wrote:

> Firstly - let me say this - there are several outstanding, unaddressed 
> issues in this draft - and the moment that this formally goes into 
> last call (which it still hasn't left despite the emails from Martin) 
> that appeal will be coming - that is guaranteed.  However, the fact 
> that this was moved out of last call had very little to do with the 
> request for the resignation.  What triggered this was the fact that 
> despite mail after mail after mail in the preceding days - within 2 
> hours of another edition of the draft being published that directly 
> went to what was being discussed, somehow, consensus was declared.  
> This denied anyone the opportunity to comment on, digest or respond to 
> the proposed wording, and the wording was material, it wasn't simply a 
> syntax change.

So my first question here is whether anyone engaged in the first two 
steps of RFC 2026, section 6.5.1 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5.1>:

    A person who disagrees with a Working Group recommendation shall
    always first discuss the matter with the Working Group's chair(s),
    who may involve other members of the Working Group (or the Working
    Group as a whole) in the discussion.

    If the disagreement cannot be resolved in this way, any of the
    parties involved may bring it to the attention of the Area
    Director(s) for the area in which the Working Group is chartered.
    The Area Director(s) shall attempt to resolve the dispute.

The fact is that chairs and ADs do screw up. They are human like the 
rest of us, and sometimes the pressure to get something out the door and 
done overwhelms correctly following the process and really determining 
the consensus. It is our responsibility as IETF participants to throw on 
the brakes and say to the chair or AD "I think you blew the consensus 
call here. Can we please discuss this?" Sometimes, that doesn't work, 
but it's the first step. So, was this attempted before the resignation 
request?

> Secondly - The original shepherd document did not once - in the entire 
> document - mention the word consensus outside of where it referred
> to the consensus achieved on RFC8200.  Instead - it cited a bunch of 
> +1's as an indication that the document had support.  I point out that 
> this runs totally and utterly contrary to everything stated in 
> RFC7282.

To be fair, RFC 7282 says:

    Note: This document is quite consciously being put forward as
    Informational.  It does not propose to change any IETF processes and
    is therefore not a BCP.  It is simply a collection of principles,
    hopefully around which the IETF can come to (at least rough)
    consensus.

and:

    While the community has come to rough consensus that the principles
    expressed in this document are (at least approximately) right, many
    of our current practices are not consistent with these principles.
    Again, this document is primarily intended to generate thought and
    discussion, not dictate practices.  If the IETF does commit itself 
to
    these principles, practices may change in the future.

Now I happen to think (and others have told me they do as well) that 
following the advice of 7282 is a really good idea. But the community 
only came to consensus that 7282 was good "information", not a required 
practice. Still, citing a bunch of +1's as an indication of consensus is 
not a good sign.

> This was flagrant, and blatant abuse of process in my view - and it 
> was rail roading through a document that both myself and others 
> dispute there is any form of consensus on.

As I said above, folks in leadership sometimes screw up. "Abuse" seems 
to imply malice. I think this is just as easily attributable to (a 
really bad) error in judgment.

> I do not for one second believe that consensus means we have to agree 
> on everything, consensus means issues have to be addressed and closed 
> - they are not - they were still under heavy discussion - and there 
> are other issues which I have cited on this list, where promises to 
> address things were made,  and never followed through on.

Yup. Again, that sounds to me like good grounds to start the conflict 
resolution and appeals process.

> So - Why not move straight away and ask for a formal recall process?

Actually, that was never my question. I agree, starting a formal recall 
is a pretty big hammer for an error (or a series of errors). The 
question I had was why not use the 2026 6.5 process first?

> Firstly - I've long believed in transparency - hence, if I am going to 
> do something, I am going to do it publicly, and I am going to stand by 
> it - that is in my view absolutely critical in a bottom up 
> organization.

Although a bit tricky in the case of a request for resignation: The 
person in question is just as likely to get dug-in if challenged like 
that in public. Again, being humans, people get defensive when publicly 
shamed. Personally, if I ever got to the level of thinking that someone 
ought to resign, I'd bring it to them privately first. Why do you think 
that the public request is "critical"?

> Secondly, invoking a formal recall process against someone is a hell 
> of a thing to do - once started - if recalled - that person has been 
> formally recalled for the rest of his days.  I prefer to give someone 
> the option of saying "I screwed up" and stepping aside before invoking 
> such a process...

That I certainly agree with.

> I realize that as with many things in life, we may not always agree - 
> but that being said - the request was transparent, and I still 
> believe, on the basis of the actions taken by the AD - entirely valid.

Since I have not seen the 2026 6.5 process invoked publicly, I do 
question whether the resignation request was appropriate. But as I said, 
I'd like to hear more about the progression of events. Was the person 
given the opportunity to correct the error? Was the explanation somehow 
lacking and therefore required the resignation request?

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


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To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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From nobody Wed Mar 11 11:26:46 2020
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From: "Pete Resnick" <resnick@episteme.net>
To: "Nico Williams" <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca>, "Alex Bogdanov" <bogdanov=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>,  "SPRING WG List" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On 10 Mar 2020, at 18:34, Nico Williams wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 03:07:53PM -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 14:45, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> What I've encountered is that at the limit you have to appeal or 
>>> give
>>> up, and how well things go before you get to that stage depends on 
>>> how
>>> willing WG chairs and responsible AD are to actively mediate dispute
>>> resolution.
>>>
>>> The case I felt went really badly was the TLS DNSSEC extension.
>>
>> I agree and while that case was bad, what’s worse is that no
>> post-mortem was done here. I don’t think the IETF as an 
>> organization
>> will take any lesson from this, and that in itself makes it likely 
>> the
>> same mistakes will be made again.
>
> +1.
>
> Perhaps we need a procedure for lodging complaints that aren't 
> appeals,
> and which result in a review and report.

Adding a "report back" step to the less formal part of RFC 2026 6.5.1 
would probably be a good practice. I know I did do this when an issue 
was "semi-formally" brought to my attention some years ago.

>>> So there was no question of appeal, really.
>>
>> I think also because in the appeal some of the same actors would 
>> appear.
>
> The whole point of an appeal is to get the IETF chair, or the IAB, to
> step in.  The route to appeal was mooted by the WG's choice to abandon
> the work item.

Again, remember that there's a less formal part, before the chair, whole 
IESG, or IAB step into the picture. That might have been the appropriate 
move in this case.

> (A cynic might wonder if that choice was not purposeful, precisely to
> allow the original work to continue unimpeded [perhaps] on the ISE 
> track
> with an appeal mooted.  I do not believe that was the case.)

As Paul alluded to, it all assume that the ISE accepts the documents. If 
not, more fun may occur.

>> Going back to this thread, when I read the subject of resignation and
>> the first email, it seemed like I just stumbled across a hallway 
>> fight
>> - people that demand unreasonable things. I don’t know how this
>> conflict went from nothing to asking for someone’s resignation but
>> clearly more people should have been involved earlier to de-escalate
>> this. maybe that was tried and just not visible here? It would be 
>> good
>> if there had been some kind of log that could have been referenced so
>> we could determine why this failed to de-escalate.
>
> +1

Yep.

> I wouldn't want to drag the ombudsman into this, but maybe that's the
> next best step.

I would refer you to RFC 7776. I don't think this would be in the 
ombudsteam's purview. (Not trying to get out of work, really!)

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


From nobody Wed Mar 11 11:32:55 2020
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Subject: Re: [spring] Status of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
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Bruno, I can not speak for anyone else.  But I have made clear to the 
authors (on list) and the AD (off list) that the current revision of the 
document does not provide what I consider adequate explanation of the 
consequence of the PSP issues.

If progress is such an important concern, then put out NP without PSP, 
and issue a separate document with PSP.  The NP document (quite 
correctly) does not claim to be a complete compilation of all behaviors 
or all flavors.

 From other people's questions about the PSP processing, it seems that 
the text is still not clear about what SID has the PSP flavor (I think I 
know how that is supposed to work, but the degree of accidental 
misinterpretation suggests the document could be better.)

Yours,
Joel

On 3/11/2020 2:12 PM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> Fernando,
> 
>> From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 5:06 AM
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Ping?
>>
>>
>> On 6/3/20 06:25, Fernando Gont wrote:
>>> Marting & Bruno,
>>>
>>> May I ask what's the status of this I-D?  -
>>>
>>> On one hand, both of you declared consensus to move it forward. On
>>> another hand, the authors keep making changes to address comments (good)
>>> so what the wg will ship will be different from what the document on
>>> which you claimed consensus. Besides, the datatracker lists the document
>>> as "in WGLC".
>>>
>>> So:
>>> What's the status of this document?
>>> And.. are you planning to do a second WGLC?
>>>
>>>
> 
> The call for comments is closed and I believe people had ample time to review the document and make comments.
> Till then, authors have been working on addressing the received comments, and updating the document.
> Some occasional new questions or points are been raised, but I don't see anything wrong with this. This may happen after the WGLC (e.g. during AD review, during IETF last call, during IESG review, and when the RFC is published via email or errata).
> I'm in the process of writing the shepherd write up.
> 
> Reviewing all the diff on all versions of the document, I don't see large technical changes that would require a formal review of those changes though a second WG last call.  Except one change regarding the processing of the upper layer, that has recently been raised by Chris. Let's see the solution on this.
> Other than that, the changes are:
> - some editorial clarifications
> - removal of OAM references & counters (Greg's comment)
> - large editorial changes in the PSP section to provide more clarification and context and explicit the consequences. But with no change to the technical behavior.
> 
> Do you see a need for a formal review of some changes?
> 
> Thanks,
> --Bruno
> 
>>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Fernando Gont
>> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
>> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>>
>>
>>
> 
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From nobody Wed Mar 11 11:36:44 2020
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Subject: Re: [spring] Status of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
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On 11/3/20 15:12, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
[....]
> The call for comments is closed and I believe people had ample time to review the document and make comments.

Shouldn't the datatracker state be updated?


> Till then, authors have been working on addressing the received comments, and updating the document.
> Some occasional new questions or points are been raised, but I don't see anything wrong with this. This may happen after the WGLC (e.g. during AD review, during IETF last call, during IESG review, and when the RFC is published via email or errata).

How come consensus was declared before there was agreement on the 
changes to address the received feedback?

e.g., what if the updates do not satisfy the folks providing comments 
during WGLC?




> Reviewing all the diff on all versions of the document, I don't see large technical changes that would require a formal review of those changes though a second WG last call.  Except one change regarding the processing of the upper layer, that has recently been raised by Chris. Let's see the solution on this.
> Other than that, the changes are:
> - some editorial clarifications
> - removal of OAM references & counters (Greg's comment)
> - large editorial changes in the PSP section to provide more clarification and context and explicit the consequences. But with no change to the technical behavior.
> 
> Do you see a need for a formal review of some changes?

I do see a need for a second WGLC, because my understanding is that 
several comments from wg participants have not been addressed.

I'd rather have a second WGLC and have the wg ship a document that the 
wg largely feels comfortable with, as opposed to have wg participants 
rehash the same discussions during IETF LC because they were dismissed 
during WGLC.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> <58c706f7-2370-2b63-37df-0b5daf1ad8a5@gont.com.ar> <9E058FE7-22DB-4267-A796-88301885F269@fugue.com> <DB3PR0302MB3228A52782E01BEA74C105F79DEB0@DB3PR0302MB3228.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <FCA51487-D859-4A22-8B66-744E72A4B3F7@cisco.com> <AM0PR0302MB32176C376B261592901708369DFC0@AM0PR0302MB3217.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V8UYtbVweE-esBdTHSeKmvsyfxA>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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On 12-Mar-20 05:06, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:
> Darren,
>=20
> Lots of thanks for the clarification.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> However, I have several issues with your response:
>=20
> 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The SRH draft is a 6MAN document=
=2E I am not sure if the provision for new documents defining new SID typ=
es and their handling means that such definitions can be done in the docu=
ments handled by other WGs,

They certainly can, because the decision point in the IETF is not the WG;=
 it's the IESG, following an IETF Last Call. It's very common for one WG =
to build on the output of another.

> especially since we see strong opposition to these changes from several=
 participants of the 6MAN WG. (To make it clear, I am not a 6MAN WG membe=
r, and personally =C2=A0neutral about PSP - but I am worried about the IE=
TF process)
>=20
> 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The SRv6 Network =C2=A0Programmi=
ng draft has a Normative reference to the SRH draft, but it does not ever=
 mentions that it updates it (not in the text and not in the Metadata).

An extension is not necessarily an "update". This is a weakness in our vo=
cabulary, and there is a current proposal to change it: https://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag

>=20
> 3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Section 4.3.1 of the SRH draft d=
efines the behavior associated with the SRv6 SID that */is locally instan=
tiated/*, and explains that other SID types may be defined. But PSP-flavo=
red SIDs are NOT locally instantiated in the penultimate node, they are i=
nstantiated in the ultimate node of the path. Therefore (and I may be too=
 literal in my interpretation of the SRH draft), I think that the provisi=
on for new documents defining new SID types */only applies to locally ins=
tantiated SIDs of the handling node/* =C2=A0and does not cover the PSP ca=
se.

I think this is governed by RFC8402, as I mentioned yesterday.

> In my original email I have suggested to the PSP/USP proponents to post=
 a draft that updates the SRH one (or the RFC that hopefully soon will be=
 published) - and to run it thru the 6MAN WG in the usual manner. I under=
stand that his will take time, but I still think that this would be the m=
ost appropriate way to resolve the current conflict that has already gone=
 too far.

I don't see how that would help, since the argument is about the interpre=
tation of RFC8200 (and RFC4291), not about the SRH spec.

Regards
    Brian
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Sasha
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Office: +972-39266302
>=20
> Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302
>=20
> Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> *From:*Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 11, 2020 4:44 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar=
>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv=
6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.or=
g>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: W=
GLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Hi Sasha,
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> I think this question got lost in the other emails around this time. =C2=
=A0Thanks for asking though and, let me clarify.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> The SRH doc was built with=C2=A0section 4.3.1 <https://clicktime.symant=
ec.com/3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml=
%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3.1>=C2=A0statin=
g:
>=20
> "Future documents may define additional SRv6 SIDs. =C2=A0In which case,=
 the entire
>=20
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0content of this section will be defined in that document.=E2=
=80=9D
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> So draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header explicitly gives other docume=
nts the ability to fully define new SIDs. =C2=A0
>=20
> In those documents the behavior of those SIDs would be fully defined, r=
egardless of the text in section 4.3.1.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is one of those documents, t=
here are others that are and will be written defining new SID behaviors a=
nd their processing, this was expected and is necessary for the definitio=
n of new SIDs and their behaviors.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> =C2=A0 Darren
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     On Feb 27, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainsh=
tein@ecitele.com <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Hi all,
>=20
>     I cannot say whether PSP is allowed or disallowed by RFC 8200.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     But, to the best of my understanding, =C2=A0format of SRH and its h=
andling are specified by the=C2=A0IPv6 Segment Routing Header <https://cl=
icktime.symantec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASGKwXGq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i=
etf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26>=C2=A0draft th=
at is owned by the 6MAN WG and=C2=A0*/is already in the RFC Editor queue/=
*. Specifically, handling of the SRH by the Segment End Point ((of which =
PSP is a special use case) is defined in Section 4.3.1.1 and says:
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S01. When an SRH is processed {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S02.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If Segments Left is equal to zero {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S03.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Proceed to process the ne=
xt header in the packet,
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
whose type is identified by the Next Header field in
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
the Routing header.
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S04.=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S05.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Else {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S06.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If local configuration re=
quires TLV processing {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S07.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Perform TLV p=
rocessing (see TLV Processing)
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S08.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S09.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 max_last_entry=C2=A0 =3D=C2=
=A0 ( Hdr Ext Len /=C2=A0 2 ) - 1
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S10.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If=C2=A0 ((Last Entry > m=
ax_last_entry) or
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S11.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 (Segments Left is greater than (Last Entry+1)) {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S12.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Send an ICMP =
Parameter Problem, Code 0, message to
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 the Source Address, pointing to the Segments Left
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 field, and discard the packet.
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S13.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S14.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Else {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S15.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Decrement Seg=
ments Left by 1.
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S16.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Copy Segment =
List[Segments Left] from the SRH to the
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 destination address of the IPv6 header.
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S17.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If the IPv6 H=
op Limit is less than or equal to 1 {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S18.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 S=
end an ICMP Time Exceeded -- Hop Limit Exceeded in
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Transit message to the Source Address and discard
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the packet.
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S19.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S20.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Else {
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S21.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 D=
ecrement the Hop Limit by 1
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S22.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R=
esubmit the packet to the IPv6 module for transmission
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to the new destination.
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S23.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S24.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S25.=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0 S26. }
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     I.e., 6MAN WG did not define any special processing of the SRH by t=
he penultimate segment endpoint. And the processing it has defined in the=
 ultimate segment endpoint =C2=A0does not mention removal of the SRH eith=
er.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     I do not think that SPRING WG can change these definitions by and o=
f itself. =C2=A0If PSP is so important, a new individual draft updating t=
he (yet unpublished) RFC defining the SRH has to be submitted and discuss=
ed in the 6MAN WG in accordance with the normal IETF process.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     My 2c,
>=20
>     Sasha
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Office: +972-39266302
>=20
>     Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302
>=20
>     Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com <mailto:Al=
exander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg>> On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
>     Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:04 PM
>     To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.a=
r>>
>     Cc:=C2=A06man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List <spri=
ng@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Maojianwei (Mao) <maojianwei@huawe=
i.com <mailto:maojianwei@huawei.com>>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro=
gramming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org <mailto:dra=
ft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:=
 WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     This is really not helpful, Fernando, and goes some way toward expl=
aining why communication isn=E2=80=99t happening.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     What I reacted to in Brian=E2=80=99s message is that he asked a rea=
lly simple question that could be readily answered with a pointer to the =
text in the document where the answer is given.=C2=A0 Since the response =
was instead to explain in email, that tells me that the spec is incomplet=
e.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Separately, Brian mentioned that there is an issue with RFC8200 tha=
t would require an update, that discussions had occurred around this, but=
 then the work never happened.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s reasonable to rai=
se an objection to proceeding with work that depends on other work that h=
asn=E2=80=99t been done.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     What I objected to in Maojianwei=E2=80=99s comment is the notion th=
at the document should pass last call to support the industry.=C2=A0 No, =
the working group should do the work to address the objections that have =
been raised.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you find yourself explaining some concept tha=
t=E2=80=99s mentioned in the document using text that is not in the docum=
ent and not in another document referenced by the document, the fix is no=
t to just publish anyway, because it supports the industry.=C2=A0=C2=A0 T=
he fix is to update the document.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A dozen or so +1s should no=
t be taken seriously if the work has not been done and nobody wants to do=
 it.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     > On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar =
<mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>> wrote:
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote:
>=20
>     >> The IETF serves users, not =E2=80=9Cindustry=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The=
 IETF does not promote. Our job is to make the internet work interoperabl=
y. Brian has raised an objection that could be answered, but has not been=
=2E It is inappropriate to say that this document has passed last call.
>=20
>     >> In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations=
 like this it is because there is a wish to not address a concern that ha=
s been raised, not because the concern could not be addressed or should n=
ot have been raised. It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, bu=
t it is not. It is part of the process.
>=20
>     >> Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simp=
ly answer it?
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > As a service to the community, let me explain:
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > Essentially, and for some reason, they seem to be meaning to circ=
umvent specs and processes.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > One of their last inventions has been to pretend that IPv6 allows=
 EH insertion/deletion en-route, based on their reading of RFC8200. Based=
 on a curious interpretation of the text, they claim that each waypoint (=
intermmediate router that received the packet because its address was set=
 as de Destination Address) can insert/remove EHs, and they claim that th=
at's not a violation of RFC8200.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fit in that fictional inte=
rpretation of RFC8200.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > What PSP does is that, given:
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > ---- B ----- C
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > routers, when B realizes, after processing the SRH and setting th=
e Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft=3D=3D0, it removes the SRH.=

>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > This case is not even covered by their fictional interpretation o=
f RFC8200.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > Hence the question is avoided, u<because thye would have no optio=
n than admiting they are violating RFC8200..unless... who knows... there =
might be yet another curious interpretation of the spec that allows it.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > It should eb evident here that the strategy is not really to foll=
ow IETF process, gain consensus, formally update specs if/where needed, b=
ut rather push whatever they publish, at whatever cost, ignoring the issu=
es raised in this wg, and circumventing IETF process.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > The fact that this behavior is allowed seems to be unfair with pa=
rticipants, and a dis-service to the group.
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     > Thanks,
>=20
>     > --
>=20
>     > Fernando Gont
>=20
>     > e-mail:=C2=A0fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>=C2=
=A0||=C2=A0fgont@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>=C2=A0PGP =
Fingerprint:
>=20
>     > 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     >=C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>=20
>     spring mailing list
>=20
>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>=20
>     https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF-RwnUUzVt=
RfXwdFqzmq0=3D?d=3Datw_kIqYFUZmbITw7iRdx05oul7SqRcF_hk-ksY2RXOVWKrcCK0_wL=
PVA5oOx3wxd3LHRWzwabnrklpMwnJcysKDzB7ZAlgkvkI_TBgMOmmWYTmUi7Cm9DeRzA9j6wT=
SFHHT2weAR7rEioVw_JRBIGcaxmodH6_sktn84eDFcI7b-TIpjSTD5gU0KWBiQuDvf1fgXAGO=
MtYb2BcOlbUxU6OvpXZ6eEmX0ugTpLkPxEZFSk2oe1Z9fA9GHFrSipsTECbnE9i46sWaYjDh7=
GATRMJrjPz08XHrqoPpRB7Hsm9rjbmV88d0ZyolqYLMiUxJbp5amhzqx_c2BeMoCNWWvFXQvM=
uI7SjxdfYP_1Gl0kSP848JuUk6nscdAGk9674LMjiQnz9vnahy-HtQGjQKqurWyHUm6-Tz1xt=
mpxiRiHJNYk2yxwQqWOUECBStdTdJLvRtWygm6L4Af-pDvPecd5eBAZ-N2ZNF2MODlL14q3R4=
Ewbq5YIX0rNIi1WDxNdv8YnDaK-qKbLgGNwUcBpswtWNGkMPNLYy0mNNlvCPHw%3D%3D&u=3D=
https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring
>=20
>=20
>     ___________________________________________________________________=
________
>=20
>     This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains=
 information which is=C2=A0
>     CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you ha=
ve received this=C2=A0
>     transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, an=
d then delete the original=C2=A0
>     and all copies thereof.
>     ___________________________________________________________________=
________
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>     Administrative Requests:=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/ipv6 <https://clicktime.symantec.com/38hWJKXwHtJe4zsy3VGGagg6H2?u=3Dhttp=
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>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________________________________=
____
>=20
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inf=
ormation which is
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eceived this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and th=
en delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> _______________________________________________________________________=
____
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


From nobody Wed Mar 11 12:20:23 2020
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, bruno.decraene@orange.com
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
References: <9be305c6-feca-9ff7-60cd-32f3b4fee123@gont.com.ar> <8ec5f424-4d15-6e23-c26f-d51c13506c0b@gont.com.ar> <26051_1583950351_5E692A0F_26051_192_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DE621C@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <76dffa38-f320-63bb-d740-501fb8b94e02@joelhalpern.com>
From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Status of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
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On 11/3/20 15:32, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Bruno, I can not speak for anyone else.  But I have made clear to the 
> authors (on list) and the AD (off list) that the current revision of the 
> document does not provide what I consider adequate explanation of the 
> consequence of the PSP issues.
> 
> If progress is such an important concern, then put out NP without PSP, 
> and issue a separate document with PSP.  The NP document (quite 
> correctly) does not claim to be a complete compilation of all behaviors 
> or all flavors.
> 
>  From other people's questions about the PSP processing, it seems that 
> the text is still not clear about what SID has the PSP flavor (I think I 
> know how that is supposed to work, but the degree of accidental 
> misinterpretation suggests the document could be better.)

That's indeed my objection: claiming consensus before folks that raised 
issues confirm that they issues they raised have been addressed.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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> On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> Indeed, an IPv6 packet with no SRH (and FIB entry is local End SID) is =
one way to get to the Upper Layer Header processing defined in 4.1.1.
> Another way is to have a FIB entry bound to an End.DT* or End.DX* =
behavior. In these cases the ULH processing occurs if the SRH has SL=3D0 =
or there's no SRH.

Ah right, sorry that's right there in the document, it's easy too lose =
track of all this when multitasking on other things. :)

So if you don't mind, going back to my original question of how this =
works with Binding SID cases... You replied:

   "Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet =
with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet. =
That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer =
Header processing is the same to End (4.1)."

Can you expand on "when the ultimate destination is BSID"? Do you mean =
when the ultimate destination of the packet is the same node N that is =
currently processing the BSID FIB entry? If so then that will have to be =
handled in whatever way it should be after it is resubmitted to either =
IPv6 or MPLS engines and forwarded and then decapsulated. There won't be =
anymore header processing to follow from 4.{13,14,15} though. Given =
something has been added (an IPv6 header or an MPLS label stack) that =
still needs to get processed and removed before any upper-layer header =
of the now encapsulated packet gets looked at.

I also find another bit of text confusing in these sections:

  "An End.BM SID is never the last SID, and any SID instantiation is
   associated with an SR-MPLS Policy B."

Is that text is saying that if one lands on a BSID one can always expect =
more SIDs to be used in moving the packet (b/c of pushing an new IPv6 =
encap or MPLS label stack)? It's confusing b/c it certainly can read =
that a BSID can't be the "Last Segment" in an SRH, but that doesn't seem =
like a reasonable restriction.

Thanks,
Chris.

>=20
> Many thanks,
> Pablo.
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 17:08
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Chris,
>>=20
>> The processing defined in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =
is aligned with the SRH.=20
>> Particularly see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sect=
ion-4.3
>>=20
>>> Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it?
>>=20
>> It is not *only* covering that case (although that is one of the =
cases, there are others). You process the extension header chain as =
defined in RFC8200.
>=20
>    Right I had quoted the 8200 processing order so I'm using that as a =
guide.
>=20
>> When processing the SRH you follow the processing of 4.1; If you get =
to the Upper Layer Header, you process it as per 4.1.1
>=20
>    This is what I'm getting at though, if there is an SRH you will =
enter section 4.1 prior to 4.1.1, and if you are in 4.1 there is no =
processing path that leads to the upper-layer header. So AFAICT the only =
way to get to section 4.1.1 is if the FIB entry is a local END SID and =
there is no SRH.
>=20
>    Thanks,
>    Chris.
>=20
>>=20
>> Thank you,
>> Pablo.=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>> Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 12:06
>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:59 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>=20
>>> They are the same thing.=20
>>=20
>>   Ok, so how do I get on 2 different processing paths for the same =
thing entry as Section 4.1 cannot lead to processing of an upper-layer =
header as far as I can tell, yet section 4.1.1 is talking about =
processing the upper layer header for the same FIB entry.
>>=20
>>   1) Packet arrives, FIB lookup on packet destination address returns =
local End SID entry.
>>=20
>>   2) Start processing the extension headers and arrive at the SRH =
(which comes prior to the upper-layer header.
>>=20
>>      =46rom RFC8200 the extension header order:
>>         IPv6 header
>>         Hop-by-Hop Options header
>>         Destination Options header (note 1)
>>         Routing header <------------------------------------ SRH
>>         Fragment header
>>         Authentication header (note 2)
>>         Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
>>         Destination Options header (note 3)
>>         Upper-Layer header <-------------------------------- Upper =
Layer Header
>>=20
>>   3) Process the SRH according to 4.1 for which there is no exit that =
leads to processing any more headers.
>>=20
>>   Oh wait...
>>=20
>>   Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it? If this is the =
case then it would make things *way* more clear for the document to =
state this outright. "When a packet's DA returns a FIB entry for a local =
END SID, but the packet does not contain an SRH ..." or something like =
that.
>>=20
>>   Thanks,
>>   Chris.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Section 3:
>>> ...
>>> Its processing is defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]
>>> section 4.3 and reproduced here as a reminder.
>>>=20
>>>    Without constraining the details of an implementation, the SR
>>>    segment endpoint node creates Forwarding Information Base (FIB)
>>>    entries for its local SIDs.
>>>=20
>>>    When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
>>>    longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address.
>>>    This lookup can return any of the following:
>>>=20
>>>    - A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID
>>>=20
>>>    - A FIB entry that represents a local interface, not locally
>>>      instantiated as an SRv6 SID
>>>=20
>>>    - A FIB entry that represents a non-local route
>>>=20
>>>    - No Match
>>>=20
>>> Section 4:
>>>> Each FIB entry indicates the behavior associated with a SID =
instance
>>>> and its parameters.
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Pablo.=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>> Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 22:01
>>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for going through the document.
>>>> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and =
4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>>>>=20
>>>> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a =
new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the =
BSID.
>>>> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM =
pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for =
transmission.
>>>>=20
>>>> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet =
with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
>>>> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper =
Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>>>>=20
>>>> Hope it clarifies.
>>>=20
>>>  I'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me to =
a more basic question:
>>>=20
>>>  Section 4.1 described the basic "FIB entry" "End" which says:
>>>=20
>>>    "When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End =
SID, N does..."
>>>=20
>>>  So it's talking about a FIB entry for a "local End SID".
>>>=20
>>>  Section 4.1.1 says:
>>>=20
>>>    "When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>>     entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID"
>>>=20
>>>  It's talking about a "FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END =
SID"
>>>=20
>>>  I'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s =
calling a FIB Entry a "local End SID" 4.1.1 is calling something =
(different?) a "FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID".
>>>=20
>>>  The terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I =
feel the document expects me to make one.
>>>=20
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  Chris.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Pablo.
>>>>=20
>>>> [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps =
<chopps@chopps.org>
>>>> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>>>> To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>>> Subject: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>>>=20
>>>> In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is =
indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain =
in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>>>>=20
>>>> "
>>>>    When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local =
End.BM
>>>>    SID, does:
>>>>=20
>>>>   S01. When an SRH is processed {
>>>>   S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>>>> ....
>>>>                Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>>   S04.   }
>>>>   S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {
>>>> ....
>>>>                Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>>   S07.   }
>>>>   S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last =
Entry+1)) {
>>>> ....
>>>>                Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>>   S11.   }
>>>> ....
>>>>   S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to =
the
>>>>             topmost label.
>>>>   S16. }
>>>> "
>>>>=20
>>>> The text then says:
>>>>=20
>>>>    When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>>>    entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the =
packet
>>>>    as per Section 4.1.1.
>>>>=20
>>>> Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this =
point?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Chris.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> spring mailing list
>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> spring mailing list
>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Dispute process (Was: Resignation request)
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On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 01:26:35PM -0500, Pete Resnick wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2020, at 18:34, Nico Williams wrote:
> > (A cynic might wonder if that choice was not purposeful, precisely to
> > allow the original work to continue unimpeded [perhaps] on the ISE track
> > with an appeal mooted.  I do not believe that was the case.)
> 
> As Paul alluded to, it all assume that the ISE accepts the documents. If
> not, more fun may occur.

There was agreement that the WG would not oppose the two parties'
submissions to the ISE on the topic.

> > I wouldn't want to drag the ombudsman into this, but maybe that's the
> > next best step.
> 
> I would refer you to RFC 7776. I don't think this would be in the
> ombudsteam's purview. (Not trying to get out of work, really!)

I was suggesting updating that, not acting as though we already have :)

Nico
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To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
> Hi Spring WG
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues rel=
ating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the sprin=
g working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93=
 and I would now like to raise those issues in the context of that draft =
=E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violate=
s the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.

I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard):=


   SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing
   header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH].  An instruction is
   associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address.  An SRv6
   segment is also called an SRv6 SID.  An SR Policy is instantiated as
   an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.

I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4291=

is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:

   IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
   An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface.  Since each
   interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
   unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.

However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
in the RFCs.

In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
giving semantic meanings to address bits.

   Brian

>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Can we please have a proper discussion on this
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Andrew
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
> *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ie=
tf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4=
291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on draft-ietf-spring-network-p=
rogramming.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Darren
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dm=
arc.ietf.org <mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Darren,
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because draft-ietf-6man-s=
egment-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv6 address semanti=
cs. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closing issue 66 imp=
lies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in draft-ietf=
-6man-network-programming?
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
Ron
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Juniper Business Use Only
>=20
>     *From:*=C2=A0ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.=
org>>=C2=A0*On Behalf Of=C2=A0*Darren Dukes (ddukes)
>     *Sent:*=C2=A0Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
>     *To:*=C2=A0EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:EXT-Andrew.A=
lston@liquidtelecom.com> <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.=
Alston@liquidtelecom.com>>
>     *Cc:*=C2=A06man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject:*=C2=A0Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 viola=
ting RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.=C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66 <https://urldefense.com/v=
3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6=
vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_$>
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Darren
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>         On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquid=
telecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         Hi Darren
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         > =C2=A0Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
>=20
>         =C2=A0> association with RFC4291 and closed it with
>=20
>         =C2=A0> the text in the document.
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just=
 be useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find t=
hem
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         Thanks
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         Andrew
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


From nobody Wed Mar 11 14:42:47 2020
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From: "Pete Resnick" <resnick@episteme.net>
To: "Nico Williams" <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca>, "Alex Bogdanov" <bogdanov=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>,  "SPRING WG List" <spring@ietf.org>
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On 11 Mar 2020, at 15:57, Nico Williams wrote:

>> I would refer you to RFC 7776. I don't think this would be in the
>> ombudsteam's purview. (Not trying to get out of work, really!)
>
> I was suggesting updating that, not acting as though we already have :)

Uh...I think we have enough on our plate. :-)

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


From nobody Wed Mar 11 14:45:11 2020
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On 11/3/20 18:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
[....]
> 
> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> in the RFCs.

Didn't *you* write that document? ;-) : RFC7136

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>
To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Brian,

> On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
>> Hi Spring WG
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues =
relating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the =
spring working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=
=93 and I would now like to raise those issues in the context of that =
draft =E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming =
violates the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.
>=20
> I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed =
Standard):
>=20
>   SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of =
routing
>   header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH].  An instruction is
>   associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address.  An SRv6
>   segment is also called an SRv6 SID.  An SR Policy is instantiated as
>   an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.
>=20
> I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
> that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC =
4291
> is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:
>=20
>   IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
>   An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface.  Since each
>   interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
>   unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.
>=20
> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> in the RFCs.

RFC4291 in Section 2.5.4 does say:

   Except for the knowledge of the subnet boundary discussed in the
   previous paragraphs, nodes should not make any assumptions about the
   structure of an IPv6 address.

Bob


> In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
> giving semantic meanings to address bits.
>=20
>   Brian
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Can we please have a proper discussion on this
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Andrew
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
>> *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, 6man WG =
<ipv6@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating =
RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on =
draft-ietf-spring-network-programming.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Darren
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica =
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Darren,
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because =
draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header contains no text regarding =
SID/IPv6 address semantics. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say =
that closing issue 66 implies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address =
semantic proposed in draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>                                                                       =
                    Ron
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Juniper Business Use Only
>>=20
>>    *From:* ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes)
>>    *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
>>    *To:* EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com =
<mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> =
<Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com =
<mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>>
>>    *Cc:* 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>>    *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating =
RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66 =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!=
NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg=
4_$>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Darren
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>        On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston =
<Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com =
<mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>        Hi Darren
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>  Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
>>=20
>>         > association with RFC4291 and closed it with
>>=20
>>         > the text in the document.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>        Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would =
just be useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to =
find them
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>        Thanks
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>        Andrew
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On 12-Mar-20 10:44, Fernando Gont wrote:
> On 11/3/20 18:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> [....]
>>
>> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
>> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
>> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
>> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
>> in the RFCs.
> 
> Didn't *you* write that document? ;-) : RFC7136

Well yes, in the context of IIDs used for SLAAC etc. But that's a bit more
narrow than what we are discussing here, I think. I assume that SLAAC is
not involved.

Good catch, though ;-)

    Brian


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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Correct Brian, no SLAAC.

Darren

> On Mar 11, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.=
com> wrote:
>=20
> On 12-Mar-20 10:44, Fernando Gont wrote:
>> On 11/3/20 18:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> [....]
>>>=20
>>> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
>>> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
>>> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
>>> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
>>> in the RFCs.
>>=20
>> Didn't *you* write that document? ;-) : RFC7136
>=20
> Well yes, in the context of IIDs used for SLAAC etc. But that's a bit mor=
e
> narrow than what we are discussing here, I think. I assume that SLAAC is
> not involved.
>=20
> Good catch, though ;-)
>=20
>    Brian


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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
CC: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
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Thread-Topic: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:44:42 +0100
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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IP addresses have been used outside of the strict "identifiers for =
interfaces".
Apart from being used for routing, as a locator and as an identifier of =
course.
Load-balancers / addresses for a service, NAT, NPT66, NAT66, MAP-E/T, =
anycast addresses...
I am sure there are plenty others.

Unless Andrew can justify the "better result that works for everyone",
I do not believe rehashing the architectural properties of IP addresses =
serves any useful purpose.

Best regards,
Ole

> On 12 Mar 2020, at 09:26, Andrew Alston =
<Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>=20
> Brian,
> =20
> Let me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=93=
 I am happy to be wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I =
am writing may come across as statements, it was easiest to write that =
way, consider the statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93
> =20
> Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =
=E2=80=93 though I think we should probably consider this separately.  =
In reference to RFC8402 this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:
> =20
> When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6
>    header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network as an IPv6
>    address.
> =20
> So =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are =
IPv6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go =
into the destination field.  This is contrary to what Robert argued in =
an email found at =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/
> =20
> Now, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.
> =20
> Section 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for =
interfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is =
defined in RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=
=9D.  This document creates SID=E2=80=99s that have no binding to any =
interface.  Section 3 of the NP draft explicitly refers to lookups that =
lookup SID=E2=80=99s (which we have already established are addresses) =
that have no interface bindings.
> =20
> In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this =
is entirely compliant with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=
=93 the function and arguments section of this =E2=80=93 have no =
relation to interface ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it is debatable if this is =
as a result of problems in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =
=E2=80=93 since it is this document that explicitly creates these =
function and argument sections independently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.
> =20
> Indeed RFC3587 states in section 3:
> =20
> [ARCH] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that
>    start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are 64 bits =
long
>    and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.  The format of
>    global unicast address in this case is:
> =20
> =20
> I fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this =
document describes are compliant with this.  Now, it can also be argued =
that there are many implementations that violate these specifications =
=E2=80=93 Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback addresses, =
however, I would argue that it is a very different case for an =
implementation to violate the specification as for an RFC to violate the =
specification and make it into a standard.
> =20
> I will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being =
pretty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the =
claims floating around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99=
t say =E2=80=93 perhaps its time to start examining this whole thing =
with a fine tooth comb so that we can end up with a better result that =
works for everyone and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to unintended consequences.
> =20
> Thanks
> =20
> Andrew
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=20
> Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30
> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>; Darren Dukes =
(ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Ron Bonica =
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing =
architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating =
RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> =20
> On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
> > Hi Spring WG
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues =
relating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the =
spring working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=
=93 and I would now like to raise those issues in the context of that =
draft =E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming =
violates the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.
>=20
> I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed =
Standard):
>=20
> SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing
> header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is
> associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6
> segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as
> an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.
>=20
> I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
> that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC =
4291
> is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:
>=20
> IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
> An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each
> interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
> unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.
>=20
> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> in the RFCs.
>=20
> In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
> giving semantic meanings to address bits.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Can we please have a proper discussion on this
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Thanks
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Andrew
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
> > *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
> > *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, 6man WG =
<ipv6@ietf.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating =
RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on =
draft-ietf-spring-network-programming.
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Darren
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica =
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Darren,
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because =
draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header contains no text regarding =
SID/IPv6 address semantics. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say =
that closing issue 66 implies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address =
semantic proposed in draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> >                                                                      =
                  Ron
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Juniper Business Use Only
> >=20
> > *From:* ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> =
*On Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes)
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
> > *To:* EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com =
<mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> =
<Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com =
<mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>>
> > *Cc:* 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
> > *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating =
RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.=20
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > =
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http=
s:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek=
5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_$>
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Darren
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston =
<Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com =
<mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Hi Darren
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > >  Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
> >=20
> >  > association with RFC4291 and closed it with
> >=20
> >  > the text in the document.
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be =
useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Thanks
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Andrew
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:00:35 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MMH11-FXRw=f9QwG-aa81sktLYf-Ui-au-Z6i2jUEAzTaQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>,  Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Hi Andrew,

Please kindly observe that SID can be 16-bit ... how could it be an IP
address as defined today ?

REF:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-us=
id-04


Please also notice that SID can be of variable length too. How could it be
an IP address ?

REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-spring-srv6-vlsid-03

And to your complete surprise let me point out that the text:

When an SRv6 SID *is in the* Destination Address field of an IPv6 header of
a packet,


simply says that SID can be part of DA, not necessarily need to be a
complete DA therefore SR architecture still holds pretty well :)


Cheers,

R.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:26 AM Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Brian,
>
>
>
> Let me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=93 =
I am happy to be
> wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I am writing may com=
e
> across as statements, it was easiest to write that way, consider the
> statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =E2=
=80=93 though I
> think we should probably consider this separately.  In reference to RFC84=
02
> this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:
>
>
>
> When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6
>
>    header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network as an IPv6
>
>    address.
>
>
>
> So =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are IP=
v6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is
> no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go into the destination field.  This =
is
> contrary to what Robert argued in an email found at
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/
>
>
>
> Now, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.
>
>
>
> Section 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for
> interfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is defined=
 in
> RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.  This=
 document creates SID=E2=80=99s
> that have no binding to any interface.  Section 3 of the NP draft
> explicitly refers to lookups that lookup SID=E2=80=99s (which we have alr=
eady
> established are addresses) that have no interface bindings.
>
>
>
> In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this is e=
ntirely compliant
> with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=93 the function and =
arguments section
> of this =E2=80=93 have no relation to interface ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it=
 is debatable if this is
> as a result of problems in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =E2=
=80=93
> since it is this document that explicitly creates these function and
> argument sections independently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.
>
>
>
> Indeed RFC3587 states in section 3:
>
>
>
> [ARCH] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that
>
>    start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are 64 bits long
>
>    and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.  The format of
>
>    global unicast address in this case is:
>
>
>
>
>
> I fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this
> document describes are compliant with this.  Now, it can also be argued
> that there are many implementations that violate these specifications =E2=
=80=93
> Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback addresses, however, I
> would argue that it is a very different case for an implementation to
> violate the specification as for an RFC to violate the specification and
> make it into a standard.
>
>
>
> I will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being
> pretty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the claims=
 floating
> around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99t say =E2=80=93=
 perhaps its time to start
> examining this whole thing with a fine tooth comb so that we can end up
> with a better result that works for everyone and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to =
unintended
> consequences.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>; Darren Dukes
> (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D
> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing
> architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>
>
>
> On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
> > Hi Spring WG
> >
> >
> >
> > On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues rel=
ating the
> SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spring working
> group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93 and I wou=
ld now
> like to raise those issues in the context of that draft =E2=80=93 and the=
 fact that
> draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violates the address semantic
> specifications of RFC4291.
>
> I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard):
>
> SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing
> header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is
> associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6
> segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as
> an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.
>
> I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
> that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4291
> is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:
>
> IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
> An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each
> interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
> unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.
>
> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> in the RFCs.
>
> In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
> giving semantic meanings to address bits.
>
> Brian
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Can we please have a proper discussion on this
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
> > *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
> > *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, 6man WG <
> ipv6@ietf.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on
> draft-ietf-spring-network-programming.
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.=
ietf.org
> <mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren,
> >
> >
> >
> > Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because
> draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv=
6
> address semantics. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closi=
ng issue
> 66 implies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in
> draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>                                                            Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Juniper Business Use Only
> >
> > *From:* ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> *On
> Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes)
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
> > *To:* EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <
> mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com>
> >>
> > *Cc:* 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
> > *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.
> >
> >
> >
> > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66 <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!=
NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4=
_$
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Darren
> >
> >
> >
> > >  Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
> >
> >  > association with RFC4291 and closed it with
> >
> >  > the text in the document.
> >
> >
> >
> > Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be
> useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--000000000000b161e805a0a49612
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Andrew,<div><br></div><div>Please kindly observe that S=
ID can be 16-bit ... how could it be an IP address as defined today ?=C2=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>REF:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-04">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-04</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
<br></div><div><br></div><div>Please also notice that SID can be of variabl=
e length=C2=A0too. How could it be an IP address ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>REF:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-spri=
ng-srv6-vlsid-03">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-spring-srv6-vl=
sid-03</a></div><div></div><div><br></div><div>And to your complete surpris=
e let me point out that the text:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&=
quot;;color:black">When an SRv6 SID <u><b>is in the</b></u> Destination Add=
ress field of an IPv6=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:black;font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;;font-size:10pt">header of a packet,</span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;font-size:10pt"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">simply says that =
SID can be part of DA, not necessarily need to be a complete DA therefore=
=C2=A0SR architecture still holds pretty well :)=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,</p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">R.</p></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:26 AM Andrew Alston &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>





<div lang=3D"en-KE">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-7059704350924309572WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Brian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Let me clarify a few things =E2=
=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=93 I am happy to be wrong here, and =
if I am just let me know (while what I am writing may come across as statem=
ents, it was easiest
 to write that way, consider the statements clarification questions) =E2=80=
=93<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consid=
er the RFC8402 argument for a second =E2=80=93 though I think we should pro=
bably consider this separately.=C2=A0 In reference to RFC8402 this draft st=
ates =E2=80=93 in section 3:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address f=
ield of an IPv6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 header of a packet, it is routed th=
rough an IPv6 network as an IPv6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 address.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So =E2=80=93 we establish that =
indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are IPv6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is n=
o two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go into the destination field.=C2=A0 Thi=
s is contrary to what Robert argued in an email
 found at </span><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1=
AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/=
arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now, lets look at this draft sp=
ecifically in reference to RFC4291.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 2 of RFC4291 states tha=
t IPv6 addresses are identifiers for interfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=
=80=93 where an interface is defined in RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99=
s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0
 This document creates SID=E2=80=99s that have no binding to any interface.=
=C2=A0 Section 3 of the NP draft explicitly refers to lookups that lookup S=
ID=E2=80=99s (which we have already established are addresses) that have no=
 interface bindings.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this t=
alks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this is entirely compliant with section 2.=
5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=93 the function and arguments section=
 of this =E2=80=93 have no relation to interface
 ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it is debatable if this is as a result of problems =
in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =E2=80=93 since it is this do=
cument that explicitly creates these function and argument sections indepen=
dently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Indeed RFC3587 states in sectio=
n 3:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">[<a name=3D"m_-7059704350924309572_ref-ARC=
H">ARCH</a>] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that<u>=
</u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 start with binary value 000, =
have Interface IDs that are 64 bits long<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 and to be constructed in Modi=
fied EUI-64 format.=C2=A0 The format of<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 global unicast address in thi=
s case is:<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I fail to see how defining a fu=
nction and arguments in the way this document describes are compliant with =
this.=C2=A0 Now, it can also be argued that there are many implementations =
that violate
 these specifications =E2=80=93 Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loo=
pback addresses, however, I would argue that it is a very different case fo=
r an implementation to violate the specification as for an RFC to violate t=
he specification and make it into a standard.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I will also note and acknowledg=
e that some may think that I am being pretty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but co=
nsidering the context and the claims floating around about what other RFC=
=E2=80=99s say and
 don=E2=80=99t say =E2=80=93 perhaps its time to start examining this whole=
 thing with a fine tooth comb so that we can end up with a better result th=
at works for everyone and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to unintended consequences.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"en-KE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">F=
rom:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;; Darren Duke=
s (ddukes) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ddukes=
@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.ne=
t@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br=
>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ip=
v6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing a=
rchitecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC42=
91, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andre=
w Alston wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Spring WG<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues re=
lating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spring=
 working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93 an=
d I would now like to raise those issues in the context
 of that draft =E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-progra=
mming violates the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.<br>
<br>
I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard):<b=
r>
<br>
SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing<br>
header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is<br>
associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6<br>
segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as<br>
an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft<=
br>
that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4291<b=
r>
is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:<br>
<br>
IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.<br>
An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each<br>
interface belongs to a single node, any of that node&#39;s interfaces&#39;<=
br>
unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.<br>
<br>
However, I can&#39;t find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses<br>
having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes<br>
against one of my design prejudices, but I can&#39;t find anything<br>
resembling &quot;Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful&quot=
;<br>
in the RFCs.<br>
<br>
In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to<br>
giving semantic meanings to address bits.<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can we please have a proper discussion on this<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From: *&quot;Darren Dukes (ddukes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03<br>
&gt; *To: *Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt; *Cc: *Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;, 6man WG &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt; *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC=
4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on draft-ietf-spring-network-=
programming.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica=
=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org%20%3cmailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org &lt;mailt=
o:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Darren,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because draft-ietf-6man-segm=
ent-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv6 address semantics. I=
f that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closing issue 66 implies WG=
 consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed
 in draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
Ron<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Juniper Business Use Only<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From:*=C2=A0ipv6 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org%20%3cmai=
lto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6-bounces@ietf.org &lt;mail=
to:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0*On Behalf Of=C2=A0*Darren Dukes =
(ddukes)<br>
&gt; *Sent:*=C2=A0Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM<br>
&gt; *To:*=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:EXT-Andrew.A=
lston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidt=
elecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target=3D"_blank">A=
ndrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
 &lt;mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; *Cc:*=C2=A06man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org%20%3cmailto:ipv=
6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org &lt;mailto:ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject:*=C2=A0Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violatin=
g RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66" target=3D"_blank=
">
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66</a> &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-Q=
FuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_$" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66_=
_;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rx=
aFg4_$</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew=
.Alston@liquidtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com &lt;mailto:Andrew.Alston@liqu=
idtelecom.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0Hi Mark, the working group discussed the<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0&gt; association with RFC4291 and closed it with<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0&gt; the text in the document.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be use=
ful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/ipv6" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
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 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 21:16:21 +1100
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>,  Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On Thu, 12 Mar 2020, 19:45 , <otroan@employees.org> wrote:

> IP addresses have been used outside of the strict "identifiers for
> interfaces".
> Apart from being used for routing, as a locator and as an identifier of
> course.
> Load-balancers / addresses for a service, NAT, NPT66, NAT66, MAP-E/T,
> anycast addresses...
> I am sure there are plenty others.
>
> Unless Andrew can justify the "better result that works for everyone",
> I do not believe rehashing the architectural properties of IP addresses
> serves any useful purpose.
>


I think it serves a very important purpose, which is why I raised it.

SRv6 SRH says IPv6 addresses can be assigned to nodes, contrary to RFC
4291. What is the Interface Identifier portion of the address called in
that case, and where is it specified?

There needs to be an update to RFC 4291 if IPv6 addresses can now be
assigned to nodes.

I think that RFC 4291 requires that SRv6 requires implementations configure
the SID prefix on a virtual or physical interface, rather than leaving it
to be an implementation choice.

It also means there is then no need for a special case SR FIB lookup
algorithm, as described in SRH ID 4.3, as the existing, general purpose and
all cases IPv6 FIB lookup will work without modification.

Regards,
Mark.



> Best regards,
> Ole
>
> > On 12 Mar 2020, at 09:26, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.co=
m>
> wrote:
> >
> > Brian,
> >
> > Let me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=
=93 I am happy to
> be wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I am writing may
> come across as statements, it was easiest to write that way, consider the
> statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93
> >
> > Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =E2=
=80=93 though I
> think we should probably consider this separately.  In reference to RFC84=
02
> this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:
> >
> > When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6
> >    header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network as an IPv6
> >    address.
> >
> > So =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are =
IPv6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is
> no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go into the destination field.  This =
is
> contrary to what Robert argued in an email found at
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/
> >
> > Now, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.
> >
> > Section 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for
> interfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is defined=
 in
> RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.  This=
 document creates SID=E2=80=99s
> that have no binding to any interface.  Section 3 of the NP draft
> explicitly refers to lookups that lookup SID=E2=80=99s (which we have alr=
eady
> established are addresses) that have no interface bindings.
> >
> > In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this is=
 entirely
> compliant with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=93 the fun=
ction and
> arguments section of this =E2=80=93 have no relation to interface ID=E2=
=80=99s =E2=80=93 it is
> debatable if this is as a result of problems in RFC8402 or indeed,
> potentially both drafts =E2=80=93 since it is this document that explicit=
ly creates
> these function and argument sections independently of RFC8402 in section
> 3.1.
> >
> > Indeed RFC3587 states in section 3:
> >
> > [ARCH] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that
> >    start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are 64 bits lon=
g
> >    and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.  The format of
> >    global unicast address in this case is:
> >
> >
> > I fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this
> document describes are compliant with this.  Now, it can also be argued
> that there are many implementations that violate these specifications =E2=
=80=93
> Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback addresses, however, I
> would argue that it is a very different case for an implementation to
> violate the specification as for an RFC to violate the specification and
> make it into a standard.
> >
> > I will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being
> pretty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the claims=
 floating
> around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99t say =E2=80=93=
 perhaps its time to start
> examining this whole thing with a fine tooth comb so that we can end up
> with a better result that works for everyone and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to =
unintended
> consequences.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30
> > To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>; Darren Dukes
> (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D
> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing
> architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >
> > On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
> > > Hi Spring WG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues r=
elating
> the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spring
> working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93 a=
nd I would
> now like to raise those issues in the context of that draft =E2=80=93 and=
 the fact
> that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violates the address semantic
> specifications of RFC4291.
> >
> > I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard=
):
> >
> > SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing
> > header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is
> > associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6
> > segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as
> > an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.
> >
> > I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
> > that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 42=
91
> > is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:
> >
> > IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
> > An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each
> > interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
> > unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.
> >
> > However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> > having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> > against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> > resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> > in the RFCs.
> >
> > In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
> > giving semantic meanings to address bits.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Can we please have a proper discussion on this
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
> > > *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
> > > *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > > *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, 6man WG <
> ipv6@ietf.org>
> > > *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on
> draft-ietf-spring-network-programming.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Darren
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D
> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Darren,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because
> draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv=
6
> address semantics. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closi=
ng issue
> 66 implies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in
> draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>                 Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Juniper Business Use Only
> > >
> > > *From:* ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>>
> *On Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes)
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
> > > *To:* EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:
> EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>>
> > > *Cc:* 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
> > > *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66<
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!=
NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4=
_$
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Darren
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston <
> Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Darren
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >  Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
> > >
> > >  > association with RFC4291 and closed it with
> > >
> > >  > the text in the document.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be
> useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > > ipv6@ietf.org
> > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 12 Mar 2020, 19:45 , &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:otr=
oan@employees.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">otroan@employees.org</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">IP addresses have been used=
 outside of the strict &quot;identifiers for interfaces&quot;.<br>
Apart from being used for routing, as a locator and as an identifier of cou=
rse.<br>
Load-balancers / addresses for a service, NAT, NPT66, NAT66, MAP-E/T, anyca=
st addresses...<br>
I am sure there are plenty others.<br>
<br>
Unless Andrew can justify the &quot;better result that works for everyone&q=
uot;,<br>
I do not believe rehashing the architectural properties of IP addresses ser=
ves any useful purpose.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think it serves a very=
 important purpose, which is why I raised it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">SRv6 SRH says IPv6 addresses can be assigned to nodes=
, contrary to RFC 4291. What is the Interface Identifier portion of the add=
ress called in that case, and where is it specified?</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There needs to be an update to RFC 4291 if IPv=
6 addresses can now be assigned to nodes.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">I think that RFC 4291 requires that SRv6 requires impleme=
ntations configure the SID prefix on a virtual or physical interface, rathe=
r than leaving it to be an implementation choice.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">It also means there is then no need for a special=
 case SR FIB lookup algorithm, as described in SRH ID 4.3, as the existing,=
 general purpose and all cases IPv6 FIB lookup will work without modificati=
on.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Ole<br>
<br>
&gt; On 12 Mar 2020, at 09:26, Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.A=
lston@liquidtelecom.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer=
 noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alst=
on@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Brian,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Let me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=
=93 I am happy to be wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I=
 am writing may come across as statements, it was easiest to write that way=
, consider the statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =
=E2=80=93 though I think we should probably consider this separately.=C2=A0=
 In reference to RFC8402 this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network =
as an IPv6<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; So =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are=
 IPv6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go i=
nto the destination field.=C2=A0 This is contrary to what Robert argued in =
an email found at <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u=
1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefe=
rrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65B=
k/</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Now, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Section 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for in=
terfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is defined in =
RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 T=
his document creates SID=E2=80=99s that have no binding to any interface.=
=C2=A0 Section 3 of the NP draft explicitly refers to lookups that lookup S=
ID=E2=80=99s (which we have already established are addresses) that have no=
 interface bindings.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this i=
s entirely compliant with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=
=93 the function and arguments section of this =E2=80=93 have no relation t=
o interface ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it is debatable if this is as a result o=
f problems in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =E2=80=93 since it=
 is this document that explicitly creates these function and argument secti=
ons independently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Indeed RFC3587 states in section 3:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; [ARCH] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are =
64 bits long<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.=C2=A0 Th=
e format of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 global unicast address in this case is:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; I fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this do=
cument describes are compliant with this.=C2=A0 Now, it can also be argued =
that there are many implementations that violate these specifications =E2=
=80=93 Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback addresses, however,=
 I would argue that it is a very different case for an implementation to vi=
olate the specification as for an RFC to violate the specification and make=
 it into a standard.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; I will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being p=
retty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the claims fl=
oating around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99t say =E2=
=80=93 perhaps its time to start examining this whole thing with a fine too=
th comb so that we can end up with a better result that works for everyone =
and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to unintended consequences.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.=
com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; <br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30<br>
&gt; To: Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.co=
m" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer=
 noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</=
a>&gt;; Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@cisco.com" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Ron Bonica &l=
t;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer no=
referrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" r=
el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing arc=
hitecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291=
, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Spring WG<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issu=
es relating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the s=
pring working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=
=93 and I would now like to raise those issues in the context of that draft=
 =E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violates=
 the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standar=
d):<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing<=
br>
&gt; header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is<br>
&gt; associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6<br>
&gt; segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as<br=
>
&gt; an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I don&#39;t see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming d=
raft<br>
&gt; that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4=
291<br>
&gt; is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.<br>
&gt; An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each<br>
&gt; interface belongs to a single node, any of that node&#39;s interfaces&=
#39;<br>
&gt; unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; However, I can&#39;t find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses<=
br>
&gt; having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes<br>
&gt; against one of my design prejudices, but I can&#39;t find anything<br>
&gt; resembling &quot;Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful=
&quot;<br>
&gt; in the RFCs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to<br>
&gt; giving semantic meanings to address bits.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Brian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Can we please have a proper discussion on this<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Andrew<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; *From: *&quot;Darren Dukes (ddukes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
dukes@cisco.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ddukes@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03<br>
&gt; &gt; *To: *Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dm=
arc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer=
 noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; *Cc: *Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtel=
ecom.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidteleco=
m.com</a>&gt;, 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violatin=
g RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on draft-ietf-spring-net=
work-programming.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Darren<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica &lt;rbonica=3D<a href=3D"=
mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">rbonica</a>=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40junip=
er.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net=
@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Darren,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because draft-ietf-6man=
-segment-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv6 address semanti=
cs. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closing issue 66 impli=
es WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in draft-ietf-6ma=
n-network-programming?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Juniper Business Use Only<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; *From:* ipv6 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" rel=3D"=
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">i=
pv6-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; *On Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes)<br>
&gt; &gt; *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; *To:* <a href=3D"mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>=
 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer=
 noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" rel=3D"noreferrer no=
referrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer no=
referrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; *Cc:* 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv=
6@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violatin=
g RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer no=
referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/tick=
et/66</a>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/tr=
ac/6man/ticket/66__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40n=
w0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_$" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!N=
Et6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_=
$</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Darren<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:A=
ndrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">Andr=
ew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@=
liquidtelecom.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liq=
uidtelecom.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Darren<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 Hi Mark, the working group discussed the<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; association with RFC4291 and closed it with<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; the text in the document.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just b=
e useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them<=
br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Andrew<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
&gt; &gt; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer no=
referrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ipv=
6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From nobody Thu Mar 12 04:00:43 2020
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:00:28 +0100
Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Hi Mark,

> I think it serves a very important purpose, which is why I raised it.
>=20
> SRv6 SRH says IPv6 addresses can be assigned to nodes, contrary to RFC =
4291. What is the Interface Identifier portion of the address called in =
that case, and where is it specified?
>=20
> There needs to be an update to RFC 4291 if IPv6 addresses can now be =
assigned to nodes.
>=20
> I think that RFC 4291 requires that SRv6 requires implementations =
configure the SID prefix on a virtual or physical interface, rather than =
leaving it to be an implementation choice.
>=20
> It also means there is then no need for a special case SR FIB lookup =
algorithm, as described in SRH ID 4.3, as the existing, general purpose =
and all cases IPv6 FIB lookup will work without modification.

Sounds like decent engineering decisions befitting the E in IETF to me!

Cheers,
Sander


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: "otroan@employees.org" <otroan@employees.org>
CC: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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To: spring@ietf.org
Cc: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>, "lsr\@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>,  Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "Peter Psenak \(ppsenak\)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:33:56 -0400
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> writes:

> [KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft do not have an argument nor is the use of B and N required for them. We cannot preclude a future use-case or extension where such behaviors introduced are also applicable to ISIS. So IMHO ruling such aspects out might not be the right thing to do from a protocol extensibility perspective.

No opinion here on this sub-sub-TLV; however, it has been stated elsewhere that this document will be re-spun for each new behavior that is to be carried in IS-IS (not my personal preference, fwiw...).

Thanks,
Chris.
[as WG member]

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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>,  "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] [spring] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:53:22 +0100
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <265A3B0A-358B-4163-B7E1-2FFE36B3607E@liquidtelecom.com> <14D40038-77D4-43DB-AC36-1199EE547944@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB5415A2097FD500326B7907FCEEE30@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C223D73B-D556-427C-82AB-0042C33E32F4@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB5415ADF9271EE267C3205CCBEEFC0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <0F51DF13-B058-4850-91E1-AF4B49DE158C@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB54150C911B32F8F0B2CC7C59EEFC0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <ED4F23CB-C6EE-454F-89B5-E4C088218046@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB54159F78083CBCA412243A91EEFD0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <MW3PR11MB45701FA2CE7AC6823891A1F1C1FD0@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/UDv9_f2uhHQ6gYEyFJ1tCzMcw_M>
Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi,

> I believe the /20 example was what Softbank seems to be using for =
their (very large?) network and use-cases. It=E2=80=99s an example of =
how much IPv6 space they=E2=80=99ve got from ARIN. A millionth of that =
for SRv6 indicates a /40 (if I=E2=80=99ve got my maths right). Now, I =
don=E2=80=99t claim to be aware of Softbank=E2=80=99s current and future =
use-cases. I don=E2=80=99t think it is a topic for discussion on an IETF =
mailing list.

I disagree. I think the RFCs that the IETF produces should be deployable =
in the real world, and where that requires changes at other =
organisations in the internet ecosystem like the RIRs and their =
communities that requires cooperation, communication and consideration. =
The IETF does not exist in a vacuum.

To help start the discussion and awareness, I just made a list of all =
the IPv6 current assignment and allocation sizes in the RIPE NCC service =
region:

/19:     3
/20:     2
/21:     2
/22:     2
/23:     5
/24:     5
/25:     5
/26:     8
/27:    11
/28:     7
/29: 11614
/30:   107
/31:    54
/32:  6346
/40:     1
/42:     1
/43:     1
/44:     2
/45:     7
/46:    17
/47:    39
/48:  2998

This is the operational context that these standards exist in. If =
anything needs to be changed that will need cooperation with the RIR =
communities at the least.

Cheers,
Sander

Source:
wget =
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/pub/stats/ripencc/delegated-ripencc-extended-latest
grep ipv6 delegated-ripencc-extended-latest | grep -E =
'allocated|assigned' | cut -d '|' -f 5 | sort -n | uniq -c


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
CC: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man WG" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <265A3B0A-358B-4163-B7E1-2FFE36B3607E@liquidtelecom.com> <14D40038-77D4-43DB-AC36-1199EE547944@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB5415A2097FD500326B7907FCEEE30@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C223D73B-D556-427C-82AB-0042C33E32F4@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB5415ADF9271EE267C3205CCBEEFC0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <0F51DF13-B058-4850-91E1-AF4B49DE158C@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB54150C911B32F8F0B2CC7C59EEFC0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <ED4F23CB-C6EE-454F-89B5-E4C088218046@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB54159F78083CBCA412243A91EEFD0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <MW3PR11MB45701FA2CE7AC6823891A1F1C1FD0@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <AF5782C8-DB7C-4C20-BDB5-E9212DCC3244@steffann.nl>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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> On Mar 12, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Chris,=20
>=20
> The Binding SIDs have a restriction not to be the last SID in a SID =
list. This applies to all three Binding SID behaviors defined in =
draft-ietf-spring-network-programming (End.B6.Encaps, End.B6.Encaps.Red =
and End.BM) and is indicated by the statements such as "An End.B6.Encaps =
SID is never the last segment in a SID list." in section 4.13.
>=20
> More precisely, when a node processes the SRH of a packet whose IPv6 =
Destination Address matches a locally instantiated SRv6 Binding-SID =
behavior (any of the three) and it is not the last segment in the SID =
list, it steers the packet into the associated SR Policy (either by =
performing an IPv6 encapsulation or by pushing an MPLS label stack on =
top of the existing packet).
>=20
> However, if the binding SID is the last SID in a SID list

This is the Segments Left =3D=3D 0 case?

> or the IPv6 DA in a packet with no SRH, then the router will generate =
an ICMP Parameter Problem message with code 4. In either of those two =
cases, the packet is not steered in the SR Policy and the source is =
notified of the issue.

So looping back to my earlier comments on 4.1.1, but in this context. =
The only way to arrive at this text in 4.{13,14,15}:

   "When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a FIB
   entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.B6.Encaps SID, process the
   packet as per Section 4.1.1."

is for there to be no SRH in the packet?

Thanks,
Chris.

>=20
> This restriction exists for two reasons:
> First, the primary use-case for the Binding-SID concept is to apply an =
intermediate SR Policy that steers the packet along a particular path in =
an intermediate sub-domain, but the original SID-list is expected to =
steer the traffic up to the egress node of the SR domain. This means =
that the final segment in the original SID-list is usually an End.D* =
(VPN) segment at the egress node.
>=20
> Second, the processing a Binding-SID at a last position in a SID list =
requires a different processing. First you would need to decapsulate the =
packet (since it has reached it final destination) and then =
re-encapsulate it (or push a label stack on top of the inner packet).
>=20
> Many thanks,
> Pablo.
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 20:21
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Chris,
>>=20
>> Indeed, an IPv6 packet with no SRH (and FIB entry is local End SID) =
is one way to get to the Upper Layer Header processing defined in 4.1.1.
>> Another way is to have a FIB entry bound to an End.DT* or End.DX* =
behavior. In these cases the ULH processing occurs if the SRH has SL=3D0 =
or there's no SRH.
>=20
>    Ah right, sorry that's right there in the document, it's easy too =
lose track of all this when multitasking on other things. :)
>=20
>    So if you don't mind, going back to my original question of how =
this works with Binding SID cases... You replied:
>=20
>       "Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a =
packet with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the =
packet. That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper =
Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1)."
>=20
>    Can you expand on "when the ultimate destination is BSID"? Do you =
mean when the ultimate destination of the packet is the same node N that =
is currently processing the BSID FIB entry? If so then that will have to =
be handled in whatever way it should be after it is resubmitted to =
either IPv6 or MPLS engines and forwarded and then decapsulated. There =
won't be anymore header processing to follow from 4.{13,14,15} though. =
Given something has been added (an IPv6 header or an MPLS label stack) =
that still needs to get processed and removed before any upper-layer =
header of the now encapsulated packet gets looked at.
>=20
>    I also find another bit of text confusing in these sections:
>=20
>      "An End.BM SID is never the last SID, and any SID instantiation =
is
>       associated with an SR-MPLS Policy B."
>=20
>    Is that text is saying that if one lands on a BSID one can always =
expect more SIDs to be used in moving the packet (b/c of pushing an new =
IPv6 encap or MPLS label stack)? It's confusing b/c it certainly can =
read that a BSID can't be the "Last Segment" in an SRH, but that doesn't =
seem like a reasonable restriction.
>=20
>    Thanks,
>    Chris.
>=20
>>=20
>> Many thanks,
>> Pablo.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>> Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 17:08
>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>=20
>>> The processing defined in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =
is aligned with the SRH.=20
>>> Particularly see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sect=
ion-4.3
>>>=20
>>>> Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it?
>>>=20
>>> It is not *only* covering that case (although that is one of the =
cases, there are others). You process the extension header chain as =
defined in RFC8200.
>>=20
>>   Right I had quoted the 8200 processing order so I'm using that as a =
guide.
>>=20
>>> When processing the SRH you follow the processing of 4.1; If you get =
to the Upper Layer Header, you process it as per 4.1.1
>>=20
>>   This is what I'm getting at though, if there is an SRH you will =
enter section 4.1 prior to 4.1.1, and if you are in 4.1 there is no =
processing path that leads to the upper-layer header. So AFAICT the only =
way to get to section 4.1.1 is if the FIB entry is a local END SID and =
there is no SRH.
>>=20
>>   Thanks,
>>   Chris.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Pablo.=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>> Date: Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 12:06
>>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:59 AM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> They are the same thing.=20
>>>=20
>>>  Ok, so how do I get on 2 different processing paths for the same =
thing entry as Section 4.1 cannot lead to processing of an upper-layer =
header as far as I can tell, yet section 4.1.1 is talking about =
processing the upper layer header for the same FIB entry.
>>>=20
>>>  1) Packet arrives, FIB lookup on packet destination address returns =
local End SID entry.
>>>=20
>>>  2) Start processing the extension headers and arrive at the SRH =
(which comes prior to the upper-layer header.
>>>=20
>>>     =46rom RFC8200 the extension header order:
>>>        IPv6 header
>>>        Hop-by-Hop Options header
>>>        Destination Options header (note 1)
>>>        Routing header <------------------------------------ SRH
>>>        Fragment header
>>>        Authentication header (note 2)
>>>        Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
>>>        Destination Options header (note 3)
>>>        Upper-Layer header <-------------------------------- Upper =
Layer Header
>>>=20
>>>  3) Process the SRH according to 4.1 for which there is no exit that =
leads to processing any more headers.
>>>=20
>>>  Oh wait...
>>>=20
>>>  Is 4.1.1 covering (and only covering) the case where my FIB lookup =
yields a local End SID, but the packet has no SRH in it? If this is the =
case then it would make things *way* more clear for the document to =
state this outright. "When a packet's DA returns a FIB entry for a local =
END SID, but the packet does not contain an SRH ..." or something like =
that.
>>>=20
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  Chris.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Section 3:
>>>> ...
>>>> Its processing is defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]
>>>> section 4.3 and reproduced here as a reminder.
>>>>=20
>>>>   Without constraining the details of an implementation, the SR
>>>>   segment endpoint node creates Forwarding Information Base (FIB)
>>>>   entries for its local SIDs.
>>>>=20
>>>>   When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
>>>>   longest-prefix-match lookup on the packets destination address.
>>>>   This lookup can return any of the following:
>>>>=20
>>>>   - A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID
>>>>=20
>>>>   - A FIB entry that represents a local interface, not locally
>>>>     instantiated as an SRv6 SID
>>>>=20
>>>>   - A FIB entry that represents a non-local route
>>>>=20
>>>>   - No Match
>>>>=20
>>>> Section 4:
>>>>> Each FIB entry indicates the behavior associated with a SID =
instance
>>>>> and its parameters.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Pablo.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 22:01
>>>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "spring@ietf.org" =
<spring@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) =
<pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks for going through the document.
>>>>> The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and =
4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a =
new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the =
BSID.
>>>>> Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM =
pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for =
transmission.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a =
packet with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the =
packet.
>>>>> That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper =
Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hope it clarifies.
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm still not clear on things I guess, but your answer leads me to =
a more basic question:
>>>>=20
>>>> Section 4.1 described the basic "FIB entry" "End" which says:
>>>>=20
>>>>   "When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End =
SID, N does..."
>>>>=20
>>>> So it's talking about a FIB entry for a "local End SID".
>>>>=20
>>>> Section 4.1.1 says:
>>>>=20
>>>>   "When processing the Upper-layer Header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>>>    entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End SID"
>>>>=20
>>>> It's talking about a "FIB entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END =
SID"
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm not understanding how these 2 things are different. 4.1s =
calling a FIB Entry a "local End SID" 4.1.1 is calling something =
(different?) a "FIB Entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 END SID".
>>>>=20
>>>> The terms seem too similar for me to make a distinction, where I =
feel the document expects me to make one.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Chris.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Pablo.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian =
Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>>>>> To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>>>> Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>>>> Subject: [spring] Question on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is =
indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain =
in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "
>>>>>   When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local =
End.BM
>>>>>   SID, does:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  S01. When an SRH is processed {
>>>>>  S02.   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {
>>>>> ....
>>>>>               Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>>>  S04.   }
>>>>>  S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {
>>>>> ....
>>>>>               Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>>>  S07.   }
>>>>>  S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last =
Entry+1)) {
>>>>> ....
>>>>>               Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>>>>  S11.   }
>>>>> ....
>>>>>  S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to =
the
>>>>>            topmost label.
>>>>>  S16. }
>>>>> "
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The text then says:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a =
FIB
>>>>>   entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the =
packet
>>>>>   as per Section 4.1.1.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this =
point?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Chris.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> spring mailing list
>>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> spring mailing list
>>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> spring mailing list
>>>> spring@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy Policy Name Sub-TLV considerations
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Hello,

Would like to bring back this topic for discussion and inputs from the IDR =
& SPRING WGs.=20

We need to ask if the "SR Policy Name" object is something that needs local=
ization (i.e. we change the encoding from ASCII to UTF-8).

According to rfc6365 "Localization is the act of tailoring an application f=
or a different language or script or culture."  The question then arises: w=
ould someone want to define a policy name in something other than a languag=
e supported by ASCII?  English is supported, but there are other languages =
which are not.

This object traces it roots to the draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy=
 document which indicates the use of "printable ASCII characters" : https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06#section-2.=
1
So any changes to the encoding would need to be reflected in this document =
(and other protocols and Yang models as an extension).

Further on, the equivalent object in PCEP has been already defined as using=
 ASCII in the now published https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8231#section-7.3=
.2=20

Based on the WG inputs, we can determine the next course of action.

Thanks,
Ketan

-----Original Message-----
From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)=20
Sent: 13 February 2020 23:38
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>; draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy=
@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy Policy Name Sub-TLV c=
onsiderations

Hi Jeff,

I agree with you about the limits on the policy name size.=20

I am not aware of any IETF standard that mandates the use of UTF-8 for enco=
ding of string for names. The similar object in PCEP is encoded in ASCII - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8231#section-7.3.2=20

Thanks,
Ketan

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>=20
Sent: 12 February 2020 15:17
To: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org
Subject: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy Policy Name Sub-TLV consi=
derations

Authors,

In draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-08, Section 2.4.6 we have a TLV=
 for Policy Name.  Its text is:

: 2.4.6.  Policy Name Sub-TLV
:=20
:    An operator MAY set the Policy Name sub-TLV to attach a symbolic name
:    to the SR Policy candidate path.
:=20
:    Usage of Policy Name sub-TLV is described in section 2 in
:    [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy].
:=20
:    The Policy Name sub-TLV may exceed 255 bytes length due to long
:    policy name.  Therefore a 2-octet length is required.  According to
:    [I-D.ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps], the first bit of the sub-TLV codepoint
:    defines the size of the length field.  Therefore, for the Policy Name
:    sub-TLV a code point of 128 or higher is used.
:=20
:    The Policy Name sub-TLV is optional and it MUST NOT appear more than
:    once in the SR Policy TLV.
:=20
:    The Policy Name sub-TLV has following format:
:=20
:    0                   1                   2                   3
:     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
:    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
:    |     Type      |   Length                      |   RESERVED    |
:    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
:    //                        Policy Name                          //
:    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
:=20
:    Where:
:=20
:       Type: 129.
:=20
:       Length: Variable.
:=20
:       RESERVED: 1 octet of reserved bits.  SHOULD be set to zero on
:       transmission and MUST be ignored on receipt.
:=20
:       Policy Name: Symbolic name for the policy.  It SHOULD be a string
:       of printable ASCII characters, without a NULL terminator.

draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06, Section 2.1 discusses this
Sub-TLV:

:    An implementation MAY allow assignment of a symbolic name comprising
:    of printable ASCII characters to an SR Policy to serve as a user-
:    friendly attribute for debug and troubleshooting purposes.  Such
:    symbolic names may identify an SR Policy when the naming scheme
:    ensures uniqueness.

There are two observations I'd like to make:
1. A 65K length isn't very likely in BGP. :-)  I suggest that greater guida=
nce for shorter names should be offered. For example, perhaps limit the len=
gth to 1K.  Alternatively, offer advice such as: "Implementations may choos=
e to truncate long Policy Names".

2. The guidance about "printable ASCII" is rather old-style and likely to r=
un askance of IESG review for internationalization considerations.  I'd sug=
gest that the field be encoded in UTF-8 and make reference to print-safety =
similar to RFC 8203 (BGP Administrative Shutdown) in its Security Considera=
tions.

-- Jeff


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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:55:46 +0100
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi,

> So what is it that you and Andrew see in the net-pgm draft or the SRv6 =
proposal that lead you to believe such a change in the IPv6 assignment =
or allocation sizes are required by RIRs?

Well, your example mentions that a /40 is used for SRv6 in a very large =
setup. A regular business entity has a /48 and a regular ISP will have a =
/29 available. I think it is necessary to look at what an expected =
address space requirements for SRv6 will be for such entities, and =
whether that fits and leaves enough remaining address space for the rest =
of the network.

What is also necessary is to see if the way SRv6 uses addresses is =
compatible with the RIR policies. In the RIPE NCC region we have =
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-707#assignment_infra, which =
basically allows for a separate /48 per PoP and a single /48 for =
in-house operation of the operator. If changes are required in RIR =
policies their communities need to be told so, and mutual expectations =
of what will and will not be considered acceptable address space use =
will have to be discussed.

> I am assuming this is the same "IP Space burn" topic that Andrew =
alludes to =E2=80=A6

Yes
Sander



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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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--_000_DM5PR11MB181892A07220C2AF3A0A6732C8FD0DM5PR11MB1818namp_
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Yes thanks Brian for that response.

Sasha I want to correct one technical error in your email so your understan=
ding is clear. You say =93But PSP-flavored SIDs are NOT locally instantiate=
d in the penultimate node, they are instantiated in the ultimate node of th=
e path. =93

That is incorrect. A SID that is PSP flavor only performs the PSP operation=
 when it is in the penultimate position in the segment list, and a SID is o=
nly processed on the node that instantiates it. See the definition of penul=
timate segment in the segment list definition here. https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-2

Thanks
  Darren

________________________________
From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 3:36 AM
To: Brian E Carpenter
Cc: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-ne=
twork-programming; Darren Dukes (ddukes)
Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Brian,
Lots of thanks for a prompt and unambiguous response.

Regards,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 9:13 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>; Darren Dukes (=
ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont <fernand=
o@gont.com.ar>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spri=
ng-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

On 12-Mar-20 05:06, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:
> Darren,
>
> Lots of thanks for the clarification.
>
>
>
> However, I have several issues with your response:
>
> 1.       The SRH draft is a 6MAN document. I am not sure if the
> provision for new documents defining new SID types and their handling
> means that such definitions can be done in the documents handled by
> other WGs,

They certainly can, because the decision point in the IETF is not the WG; i=
t's the IESG, following an IETF Last Call. It's very common for one WG to b=
uild on the output of another.

> especially since we see strong opposition to these changes from
> several participants of the 6MAN WG. (To make it clear, I am not a
> 6MAN WG member, and personally  neutral about PSP - but I am worried
> about the IETF process)
>
> 2.       The SRv6 Network  Programming draft has a Normative reference to=
 the SRH draft, but it does not ever mentions that it updates it (not in th=
e text and not in the Metadata).

An extension is not necessarily an "update". This is a weakness in our voca=
bulary, and there is a current proposal to change it: https://clicktime.sym=
antec.com/32AasVXnTQLbLb4xyAqqxWy6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtm=
l%2Fdraft-kuehlewind-update-tag

>
> 3.       Section 4.3.1 of the SRH draft defines the behavior associated w=
ith the SRv6 SID that */is locally instantiated/*, and explains that other =
SID types may be defined. But PSP-flavored SIDs are NOT locally instantiate=
d in the penultimate node, they are instantiated in the ultimate node of th=
e path. Therefore (and I may be too literal in my interpretation of the SRH=
 draft), I think that the provision for new documents defining new SID type=
s */only applies to locally instantiated SIDs of the handling node/*  and d=
oes not cover the PSP case.

I think this is governed by RFC8402, as I mentioned yesterday.

> In my original email I have suggested to the PSP/USP proponents to post a=
 draft that updates the SRH one (or the RFC that hopefully soon will be pub=
lished) - and to run it thru the 6MAN WG in the usual manner. I understand =
that his will take time, but I still think that this would be the most appr=
opriate way to resolve the current conflict that has already gone too far.

I don't see how that would help, since the argument is about the interpreta=
tion of RFC8200 (and RFC4291), not about the SRH spec.

Regards
    Brian
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:*Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 11, 2020 4:44 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; Fernando Gont
> <fernando@gont.com.ar>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>;
> 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:
> WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> I think this question got lost in the other emails around this time.  Tha=
nks for asking though and, let me clarify.
>
>
>
> The SRH doc was built with section 4.3.1 <https://clicktime.symantec.com/=
3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-=
ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3.1> stating:
>
> "Future documents may define additional SRv6 SIDs.  In which case, the
> entire
>
>    content of this section will be defined in that document.=94
>
>
>
>
>
> So draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header explicitly gives other
> documents the ability to fully define new SIDs.
>
> In those documents the behavior of those SIDs would be fully defined, reg=
ardless of the text in section 4.3.1.
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is one of those documents, the=
re are others that are and will be written defining new SID behaviors and t=
heir processing, this was expected and is necessary for the definition of n=
ew SIDs and their behaviors.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>   Darren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Feb 27, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshte=
in@ecitele.com <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I cannot say whether PSP is allowed or disallowed by RFC 8200.
>
>
>
>     But, to the best of my understanding,  format of SRH and its handling=
 are specified by the IPv6 Segment Routing Header <https://clicktime.symant=
ec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASGKwXGq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2=
Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26> draft that is owned by the 6MAN=
 WG and */is already in the RFC Editor queue/*. Specifically, handling of t=
he SRH by the Segment End Point ((of which PSP is a special use case) is de=
fined in Section 4.3.1.1 and says:
>
>
>
>        S01. When an SRH is processed {
>
>        S02.   If Segments Left is equal to zero {
>
>        S03.     Proceed to process the next header in the packet,
>
>                 whose type is identified by the Next Header field in
>
>                 the Routing header.
>
>        S04.   }
>
>        S05.   Else {
>
>        S06.     If local configuration requires TLV processing {
>
>        S07.       Perform TLV processing (see TLV Processing)
>
>        S08.     }
>
>        S09.     max_last_entry  =3D  ( Hdr Ext Len /  2 ) - 1
>
>        S10.     If  ((Last Entry > max_last_entry) or
>
>        S11.          (Segments Left is greater than (Last Entry+1)) {
>
>        S12.       Send an ICMP Parameter Problem, Code 0, message to
>
>                   the Source Address, pointing to the Segments Left
>
>                   field, and discard the packet.
>
>        S13.     }
>
>        S14.     Else {
>
>        S15.       Decrement Segments Left by 1.
>
>        S16.       Copy Segment List[Segments Left] from the SRH to the
>
>                   destination address of the IPv6 header.
>
>        S17.       If the IPv6 Hop Limit is less than or equal to 1 {
>
>        S18.         Send an ICMP Time Exceeded -- Hop Limit Exceeded
> in
>
>                     Transit message to the Source Address and discard
>
>                     the packet.
>
>        S19.       }
>
>        S20.       Else {
>
>        S21.         Decrement the Hop Limit by 1
>
>        S22.         Resubmit the packet to the IPv6 module for
> transmission
>
>                     to the new destination.
>
>        S23.       }
>
>        S24.     }
>
>        S25.   }
>
>        S26. }
>
>
>
>     I.e., 6MAN WG did not define any special processing of the SRH by the=
 penultimate segment endpoint. And the processing it has defined in the ult=
imate segment endpoint  does not mention removal of the SRH either.
>
>
>
>     I do not think that SPRING WG can change these definitions by and of =
itself.  If PSP is so important, a new individual draft updating the (yet u=
npublished) RFC defining the SRH has to be submitted and discussed in the 6=
MAN WG in accordance with the normal IETF process.
>
>
>
>     My 2c,
>
>     Sasha
>
>
>
>     Office: +972-39266302
>
>     Cell:      +972-549266302
>
>     Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org=
>> On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
>     Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:04 PM
>     To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>=
>
>     Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf=
.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Maojianwei (Mao) <maojianwei@huawei.com <ma=
ilto:maojianwei@huawei.com>>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <d=
raft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org <mailto:draft-ietf-sprin=
g-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move
> forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
>     This is really not helpful, Fernando, and goes some way toward explai=
ning why communication isn=92t happening.
>
>
>
>     What I reacted to in Brian=92s message is that he asked a really simp=
le question that could be readily answered with a pointer to the text in th=
e document where the answer is given.  Since the response was instead to ex=
plain in email, that tells me that the spec is incomplete.
>
>
>
>     Separately, Brian mentioned that there is an issue with RFC8200 that =
would require an update, that discussions had occurred around this, but the=
n the work never happened.   It=92s reasonable to raise an objection to pro=
ceeding with work that depends on other work that hasn=92t been done.
>
>
>
>     What I objected to in Maojianwei=92s comment is the notion that the d=
ocument should pass last call to support the industry.  No, the working gro=
up should do the work to address the objections that have been raised.   If=
 you find yourself explaining some concept that=92s mentioned in the docume=
nt using text that is not in the document and not in another document refer=
enced by the document, the fix is not to just publish anyway, because it su=
pports the industry.   The fix is to update the document.   A dozen or so +=
1s should not be taken seriously if the work has not been done and nobody w=
ants to do it.
>
>
>
>     > On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar <m=
ailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>> wrote:
>
>     >
>
>     > On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote:
>
>     >> The IETF serves users, not =93industry=94.  The IETF does not prom=
ote. Our job is to make the internet work interoperably. Brian has raised a=
n objection that could be answered, but has not been. It is inappropriate t=
o say that this document has passed last call.
>
>     >> In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations l=
ike this it is because there is a wish to not address a concern that has be=
en raised, not because the concern could not be addressed or should not hav=
e been raised. It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, but it is =
not. It is part of the process.
>
>     >> Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simply=
 answer it?
>
>     >
>
>     > As a service to the community, let me explain:
>
>     >
>
>     > Essentially, and for some reason, they seem to be meaning to circum=
vent specs and processes.
>
>     >
>
>     > One of their last inventions has been to pretend that IPv6 allows E=
H insertion/deletion en-route, based on their reading of RFC8200. Based on =
a curious interpretation of the text, they claim that each waypoint (interm=
mediate router that received the packet because its address was set as de D=
estination Address) can insert/remove EHs, and they claim that that's not a=
 violation of RFC8200.
>
>     >
>
>     > However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fit in that fictional interp=
retation of RFC8200.
>
>     >
>
>     > What PSP does is that, given:
>
>     >
>
>     > ---- B ----- C
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>     > routers, when B realizes, after processing the SRH and setting the =
Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft=3D=3D0, it removes the SRH.
>
>     >
>
>     > This case is not even covered by their fictional interpretation of =
RFC8200.
>
>     >
>
>     > Hence the question is avoided, u<because thye would have no option =
than admiting they are violating RFC8200..unless... who knows... there migh=
t be yet another curious interpretation of the spec that allows it.
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>     > It should eb evident here that the strategy is not really to follow=
 IETF process, gain consensus, formally update specs if/where needed, but r=
ather push whatever they publish, at whatever cost, ignoring the issues rai=
sed in this wg, and circumventing IETF process.
>
>     >
>
>     > The fact that this behavior is allowed seems to be unfair with part=
icipants, and a dis-service to the group.
>
>     >
>
>     > Thanks,
>
>     > --
>
>     > Fernando Gont
>
>     > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> || fgont=
@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> PGP Fingerprint:
>
>     > 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     spring mailing list
>
>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>
>
> https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF-RwnUUzVtRfX
> wdFqzmq0=3D?d=3Datw_kIqYFUZmbITw7iRdx05oul7SqRcF_hk-ksY2RXOVWKrcCK0_wLPVA=
5
> oOx3wxd3LHRWzwabnrklpMwnJcysKDzB7ZAlgkvkI_TBgMOmmWYTmUi7Cm9DeRzA9j6wTS
> FHHT2weAR7rEioVw_JRBIGcaxmodH6_sktn84eDFcI7b-TIpjSTD5gU0KWBiQuDvf1fgXA
> GOMtYb2BcOlbUxU6OvpXZ6eEmX0ugTpLkPxEZFSk2oe1Z9fA9GHFrSipsTECbnE9i46sWa
> YjDh7GATRMJrjPz08XHrqoPpRB7Hsm9rjbmV88d0ZyolqYLMiUxJbp5amhzqx_c2BeMoCN
> WWvFXQvMuI7SjxdfYP_1Gl0kSP848JuUk6nscdAGk9674LMjiQnz9vnahy-HtQGjQKqurW
> yHUm6-Tz1xtmpxiRiHJNYk2yxwQqWOUECBStdTdJLvRtWygm6L4Af-pDvPecd5eBAZ-N2Z
> NF2MODlL14q3R4Ewbq5YIX0rNIi1WDxNdv8YnDaK-qKbLgGNwUcBpswtWNGkMPNLYy0mNN
> lvCPHw%3D%3D&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsprin
> g
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
and all copies thereof.
___________________________________________________________________________

--_000_DM5PR11MB181892A07220C2AF3A0A6732C8FD0DM5PR11MB1818namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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252">
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<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Yes thanks Brian for that response.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Sasha I want to correct one technical error in your email =
so your understanding is clear. You say =93<span style=3D"font-size: 14.666=
666984558105px;">But PSP-flavored SIDs are NOT locally instantiated in the =
penultimate node, they are instantiated
 in the ultimate node of the path.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 14.66666=
6984558105px;">&nbsp;=93</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;">That is i=
ncorrect. A SID that is PSP flavor only performs the PSP operation when it =
is in the penultimate position in the segment list, and a SID is only proce=
ssed on the node that instantiates it.
 See the definition of penultimate segment in the segment list definition h=
ere.&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-ro=
uting-header-26#section-2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segm=
ent-routing-header-26#section-2</a></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px=
;">Darren</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"ms-outlook-ios-signature"></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-354ea88a-fe21-4995-9d75-68787291c668" class=3D"ms-outlook-mob=
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rd; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b=
>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 12, 2020 3:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian E Carpenter<br>
<b>Cc:</b> SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont; draft-ietf-spring-=
srv6-network-programming; Darren Dukes (ddukes)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: =
WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</font></div>
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server">
<!-- converted from text --><style><!-- .EmailQuote { margin-left: 1pt; pad=
ding-left: 4pt; border-left: #800000 2px solid; } --></style><font size=3D"=
2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Brian,<br>
Lots of thanks for a prompt and unambiguous response.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Sasha<br>
<br>
Office: &#43;972-39266302<br>
Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-549266302<br>
Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Brian E Carpenter &lt;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt; <br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 9:13 PM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;; Darren D=
ukes (ddukes) &lt;ddukes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
Cc: SPRING WG List &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont &l=
t;fernando@gont.com.ar&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;=
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
<br>
On 12-Mar-20 05:06, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:<br>
&gt; Darren,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Lots of thanks for the clarification.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; However, I have several issues with your response:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The SRH draft is a 6MAN documen=
t. I am not sure if the <br>
&gt; provision for new documents defining new SID types and their handling =
<br>
&gt; means that such definitions can be done in the documents handled by <b=
r>
&gt; other WGs,<br>
<br>
They certainly can, because the decision point in the IETF is not the WG; i=
t's the IESG, following an IETF Last Call. It's very common for one WG to b=
uild on the output of another.<br>
<br>
&gt; especially since we see strong opposition to these changes from <br>
&gt; several participants of the 6MAN WG. (To make it clear, I am not a <br=
>
&gt; 6MAN WG member, and personally &nbsp;neutral about PSP - but I am worr=
ied <br>
&gt; about the IETF process)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The SRv6 Network &nbsp;Programm=
ing draft has a Normative reference to the SRH draft, but it does not ever =
mentions that it updates it (not in the text and not in the Metadata).<br>
<br>
An extension is not necessarily an &quot;update&quot;. This is a weakness i=
n our vocabulary, and there is a current proposal to change it:
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/32AasVXnTQLbLb4xyAqqxWy6H2?u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-kuehlewind-update-tag">
https://clicktime.symantec.com/32AasVXnTQLbLb4xyAqqxWy6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-kuehlewind-update-tag</a><br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Section 4.3.1 of the SRH draft =
defines the behavior associated with the SRv6 SID that */is locally instant=
iated/*, and explains that other SID types may be defined. But PSP-flavored=
 SIDs are NOT locally instantiated in the penultimate node, they
 are instantiated in the ultimate node of the path. Therefore (and I may be=
 too literal in my interpretation of the SRH draft), I think that the provi=
sion for new documents defining new SID types */only applies to locally ins=
tantiated SIDs of the handling node/*
 &nbsp;and does not cover the PSP case.<br>
<br>
I think this is governed by RFC8402, as I mentioned yesterday.<br>
<br>
&gt; In my original email I have suggested to the PSP/USP proponents to pos=
t a draft that updates the SRH one (or the RFC that hopefully soon will be =
published) - and to run it thru the 6MAN WG in the usual manner. I understa=
nd that his will take time, but I still
 think that this would be the most appropriate way to resolve the current c=
onflict that has already gone too far.<br>
<br>
I don't see how that would help, since the argument is about the interpreta=
tion of RFC8200 (and RFC4291), not about the SRH spec.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Brian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Sasha<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Office: &#43;972-39266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-549266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From:*Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;ddukes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
&gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, March 11, 2020 4:44 PM<br>
&gt; *To:* Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;<br=
>
&gt; *Cc:* Ted Lemon &lt;mellon@fugue.com&gt;; Fernando Gont <br>
&gt; &lt;fernando@gont.com.ar&gt;; SPRING WG List &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;; =
<br>
&gt; 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <br>
&gt; &lt;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: =
<br>
&gt; WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Sasha,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think this question got lost in the other emails around this time. &=
nbsp;Thanks for asking though and, let me clarify.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The SRH doc was built with&nbsp;section 4.3.1 &lt;<a href=3D"https://c=
licktime.symantec.com/3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ie=
tf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3.1">=
https://clicktime.symantec.com/3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23sectio=
n-4.3.1</a>&gt;&nbsp;stating:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;Future documents may define additional SRv6 SIDs. &nbsp;In which=
 case, the <br>
&gt; entire<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;content of this section will be defined in that document.=
=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header explicitly gives other <br>
&gt; documents the ability to fully define new SIDs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In those documents the behavior of those SIDs would be fully defined, =
regardless of the text in section 4.3.1.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is one of those documents, =
there are others that are and will be written defining new SID behaviors an=
d their processing, this was expected and is necessary for the definition o=
f new SIDs and their behaviors.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On Feb 27, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Alexander Vainsht=
ein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.com">mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;&gt; w=
rote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I cannot say whether PSP is allowed or disallo=
wed by RFC 8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But, to the best of my understanding, &nbsp;fo=
rmat of SRH and its handling are specified by the&nbsp;IPv6 Segment Routing=
 Header &lt;<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASGKwX=
Gq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-rou=
ting-header-26">https://clicktime.symantec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASGKwXGq6H2?u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-he=
ader-26</a>&gt;&nbsp;draft
 that is owned by the 6MAN WG and&nbsp;*/is already in the RFC Editor queue=
/*. Specifically, handling of the SRH by the Segment End Point ((of which P=
SP is a special use case) is defined in Section 4.3.1.1 and says:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S01. When an SRH is processed {<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S02.&nbsp;&nbsp; If Segments Left=
 is equal to zero {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S03.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Proc=
eed to process the next header in the packet,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; whose type is identified by the Next Header field in<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the Routing header.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S04.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S05.&nbsp;&nbsp; Else {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S06.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If l=
ocal configuration requires TLV processing {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S07.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Perform TLV processing (see TLV Processing)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S08.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S09.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; max_=
last_entry&nbsp; =3D&nbsp; ( Hdr Ext Len /&nbsp; 2 ) - 1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S10.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If&n=
bsp; ((Last Entry &gt; max_last_entry) or<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S11.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Segments Left is greater than (Last Entry&#43;1)=
) {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S12.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Send an ICMP Parameter Problem, Code 0, message to<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the Source Address, pointing to the Segmen=
ts Left<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; field, and discard the packet.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S13.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S14.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Else=
 {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S15.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Decrement Segments Left by 1.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S16.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Copy Segment List[Segments Left] from the SRH to the<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination address of the IPv6 header.<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S17.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; If the IPv6 Hop Limit is less than or equal to 1 {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S18.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Send an ICMP Time Exceeded -- Hop Limit Exceeded <br>
&gt; in<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Transit message to the Source =
Address and discard<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the packet.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S19.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S20.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Else {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S21.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement the Hop Limit by 1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S22.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Resubmit the packet to the IPv6 module for <br>
&gt; transmission<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the new destination.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S23.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S24.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S25.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S26. }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I.e., 6MAN WG did not define any special proce=
ssing of the SRH by the penultimate segment endpoint. And the processing it=
 has defined in the ultimate segment endpoint &nbsp;does not mention remova=
l of the SRH either.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not think that SPRING WG can change these=
 definitions by and of itself. &nbsp;If PSP is so important, a new individu=
al draft updating the (yet unpublished) RFC defining the SRH has to be subm=
itted and discussed in the 6MAN WG in accordance with the normal
 IETF process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My 2c,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sasha<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Office: &#43;972-39266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-5=
49266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Email:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Alexander.Vainshtein@e=
citele.com <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf.org &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt; On Behalf Of Ted Lemon<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:04 PM<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: Fernando Gont &lt;fernando@gont.com.ar &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar">mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar</a>&gt=
;&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cc:&nbsp;6man@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6=
man@ietf.org">mailto:6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;; SPRING WG List &lt;spring@ietf.=
org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">mailto:spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;&g=
t;; Maojianwei (Mao) &lt;maojianwei@huawei.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maojia=
nwei@huawei.com">mailto:maojianwei@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netw=
ork-programming@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netwo=
rk-programming@ietf.org">mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC =
and move <br>
&gt; forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is really not helpful, Fernando, and goes=
 some way toward explaining why communication isn=92t happening.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What I reacted to in Brian=92s message is that=
 he asked a really simple question that could be readily answered with a po=
inter to the text in the document where the answer is given.&nbsp; Since th=
e response was instead to explain in email, that tells me that
 the spec is incomplete.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Separately, Brian mentioned that there is an i=
ssue with RFC8200 that would require an update, that discussions had occurr=
ed around this, but then the work never happened.&nbsp;&nbsp; It=92s reason=
able to raise an objection to proceeding with work that depends on
 other work that hasn=92t been done.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What I objected to in Maojianwei=92s comment i=
s the notion that the document should pass last call to support the industr=
y.&nbsp; No, the working group should do the work to address the objections=
 that have been raised.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you find yourself explaining some
 concept that=92s mentioned in the document using text that is not in the d=
ocument and not in another document referenced by the document, the fix is =
not to just publish anyway, because it supports the industry.&nbsp;&nbsp; T=
he fix is to update the document.&nbsp;&nbsp; A dozen
 or so &#43;1s should not be taken seriously if the work has not been done =
and nobody wants to do it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Fernando Gon=
t &lt;fernando@gont.com.ar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar">mail=
to:fernando@gont.com.ar</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; The IETF serves users, not =93industr=
y=94.&nbsp; The IETF does not promote. Our job is to make the internet work=
 interoperably. Brian has raised an objection that could be answered, but h=
as not been. It is inappropriate to say that this document has passed
 last call.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; In my experience, when it is hard to =
get consensus in situations like this it is because there is a wish to not =
address a concern that has been raised, not because the concern could not b=
e addressed or should not have been raised. It may feel unreasonable,
 and like an imposition, but it is not. It is part of the process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Rather than trying to steamroll over =
the objection, why not simply answer it?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; As a service to the community, let me exp=
lain:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Essentially, and for some reason, they se=
em to be meaning to circumvent specs and processes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; One of their last inventions has been to =
pretend that IPv6 allows EH insertion/deletion en-route, based on their rea=
ding of RFC8200. Based on a curious interpretation of the text, they claim =
that each waypoint (intermmediate router that received the
 packet because its address was set as de Destination Address) can insert/r=
emove EHs, and they claim that that's not a violation of RFC8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fi=
t in that fictional interpretation of RFC8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; What PSP does is that, given:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; ---- B ----- C<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; routers, when B realizes, after processin=
g the SRH and setting the Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft=3D=3D=
0, it removes the SRH.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; This case is not even covered by their fi=
ctional interpretation of RFC8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Hence the question is avoided, u&lt;becau=
se thye would have no option than admiting they are violating RFC8200..unle=
ss... who knows... there might be yet another curious interpretation of the=
 spec that allows it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; It should eb evident here that the strate=
gy is not really to follow IETF process, gain consensus, formally update sp=
ecs if/where needed, but rather push whatever they publish, at whatever cos=
t, ignoring the issues raised in this wg, and circumventing
 IETF process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; The fact that this behavior is allowed se=
ems to be unfair with participants, and a dis-service to the group.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; --<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Fernando Gont<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; e-mail:&nbsp;fernando@gont.com.ar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar">mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar</a>&gt;&nb=
sp;||&nbsp;fgont@si6networks.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.co=
m">mailto:fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt;&nbsp;PGP Fingerprint:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D=
076 FFF1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ______________________________________________=
_<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; spring mailing list<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; spring@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org">mailto:spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF-=
RwnUUzVtRfX">
https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF-RwnUUzVtRfX</a><=
br>
&gt; wdFqzmq0=3D?d=3Datw_kIqYFUZmbITw7iRdx05oul7SqRcF_hk-ksY2RXOVWKrcCK0_wL=
PVA5<br>
&gt; oOx3wxd3LHRWzwabnrklpMwnJcysKDzB7ZAlgkvkI_TBgMOmmWYTmUi7Cm9DeRzA9j6wTS=
<br>
&gt; FHHT2weAR7rEioVw_JRBIGcaxmodH6_sktn84eDFcI7b-TIpjSTD5gU0KWBiQuDvf1fgXA=
<br>
&gt; GOMtYb2BcOlbUxU6OvpXZ6eEmX0ugTpLkPxEZFSk2oe1Z9fA9GHFrSipsTECbnE9i46sWa=
<br>
&gt; YjDh7GATRMJrjPz08XHrqoPpRB7Hsm9rjbmV88d0ZyolqYLMiUxJbp5amhzqx_c2BeMoCN=
<br>
&gt; WWvFXQvMuI7SjxdfYP_1Gl0kSP848JuUk6nscdAGk9674LMjiQnz9vnahy-HtQGjQKqurW=
<br>
&gt; yHUm6-Tz1xtmpxiRiHJNYk2yxwQqWOUECBStdTdJLvRtWygm6L4Af-pDvPecd5eBAZ-N2Z=
<br>
&gt; NF2MODlL14q3R4Ewbq5YIX0rNIi1WDxNdv8YnDaK-qKbLgGNwUcBpswtWNGkMPNLYy0mNN=
<br>
&gt; lvCPHw%3D%3D&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2=
Fsprin<br>
&gt; g<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
<br>
&gt; _____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This e-mail message is intended for the recipi=
ent only and contains information which is&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to E=
CI Telecom. If you have received this&nbsp;<br>
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&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ______________________________________________=
_____________________________<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----------------------------------------------=
----------------------<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ipv6@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.=
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&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
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&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
CC: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man WG" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:43:50 +0100
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3e2da3a5-5d1b-10a0-aeb4-320c57584241@nokia.com> <265A3B0A-358B-4163-B7E1-2FFE36B3607E@liquidtelecom.com> <14D40038-77D4-43DB-AC36-1199EE547944@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB5415A2097FD500326B7907FCEEE30@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C223D73B-D556-427C-82AB-0042C33E32F4@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB5415ADF9271EE267C3205CCBEEFC0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <0F51DF13-B058-4850-91E1-AF4B49DE158C@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB54150C911B32F8F0B2CC7C59EEFC0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <ED4F23CB-C6EE-454F-89B5-E4C088218046@cisco.com> <DBBPR03MB54159F78083CBCA412243A91EEFD0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <MW3PR11MB45701FA2CE7AC6823891A1F1C1FD0@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <AF5782C8-DB7C-4C20-BDB5-E9212DCC3244@steffann.nl> <MW3PR11MB457048CF5DA72DF87D1BC0ABC1FD0@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <5004D04F-11DB-4F3E-B5F1-2D6309FC449B@steffann.nl> <MW3PR11MB4570257104C28AFC09D00670C1FD0@MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Hi,

> In this context, we are talking about allocations for the provider's =
infrastructure.

No, we=E2=80=99re not. Allocations are the superblocks that RIRs =
delegate to an LIR. Before being allowed to use address space an LIR has =
to make assignments from that allocation. It is that assignment policy =
that seems incompatible with the way that net-pgm seems to use =
addresses.
=20
> > So what is it that you and Andrew see in the net-pgm draft or the =
SRv6 proposal that lead you to believe such a change in the IPv6 =
assignment or allocation sizes are required by RIRs?
> =20
> Well, your example mentions that a /40 is used for SRv6 in a very =
large setup. A regular business entity has a /48 and a regular ISP will =
have a /29 available.
> [KT] The example of /40 is for a large SP across their network =
infrastructure =E2=80=93 not a single POP.

I understand. At least one RIR has a policy that doesn=E2=80=99t allow =
for assignments to network-side infrastructure, only assignments per =
PoP. I=E2=80=99m not saying this shouldn=E2=80=99t be fixed (I think =
this is an oversight), but this working group should be aware of that.

> I think it is necessary to look at what an expected address space =
requirements for SRv6 will be for such entities, and whether that fits =
and leaves enough remaining address space for the rest of the network.
> [KT] Sure and I would expect such discussions to happen at NOGs or in =
other operational forums including within the IETF.
> =20
> What is also necessary is to see if the way SRv6 uses addresses is =
compatible with the RIR policies. In the RIPE NCC region we =
havehttps://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-707#assignment_infra, =
which basically allows for a separate /48 per PoP and a single /48 for =
in-house operation of the operator. If changes are required in RIR =
policies their communities need to be told so, and mutual expectations =
of what will and will not be considered acceptable address space use =
will have to be discussed.
> [KT] I believe so and we should get the feedback and inputs of =
operators that have deployed or deploying it. AFAIK none of them have =
raised such a concern or any issue with the RIR policies.

That=E2=80=99s nice. I=E2=80=99m just making you and the rest of the =
working group aware of the incompatibilities that I have noticed. =
Apparently so far you have been lucky that you haven=E2=80=99t hit the =
limits of RIR policies yet, or that the operators have violated the RIR =
policy without realising it. This is why I am informing the WG of this =
potential issue that might need some work.

> > I am assuming this is the same "IP Space burn" topic that Andrew =
alludes to =E2=80=A6
> =20
> Yes
> [KT] Thanks for confirming. So this is then a discussion on how =
providers want to manage their address space and allocations within it =
for SRv6. Nothing prevents such a discussion from continuing. I just =
don=E2=80=99t see how this as being related to the progression of the =
net-pgm draft towards publication.

The draft introduces an new IPv6 address format, so I think it has to at =
least give guidelines on the expected use and the expected sizes of LOC =
(L), FUNCT (F) and ARG (A). Although 3.1 says "F and A may be any value =
as long as L+F+A <=3D 128=E2=80=9D I noticed that 9.2 says "The range of =
the registry is 0-65535 (0x0000 - 0xFFFF)=E2=80=9D. That places at least =
a minimum size limit on the length of F that should be reflected in 3.1. =
What I am missing completely are guidelines on the size of A that can be =
reasonably expected.

Concretely:=20
- Section 3.1 needs guidelines on the expected sizes of F and A, which =
will give operators guidance on the L they should assign to network =
programming
- Explicit guidance on the size of L would be greatly appreciated
- The guideline on the size of F should state that at least 16 bits are =
required (considering section 9.1). Whether the authors want to specify =
F=3D=3D16 or F>=3D16 is up to them.

Cheers,
Sander


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
CC: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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--_000_AM0PR0302MB321754A483B2D635FB4F5CC89DFD0AM0PR0302MB3217_
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Darren,
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
My reading of your response is that in order to perform PSP, the penultima=
te route must advertise an SID it instanciates as PSP-flavored.  Until now=
 I have always assumed that PSP flavor is used with some SID that is subst=
antiated by the ultimate node similar to a node that adveririses its Node =
SID with PHP flag in SR-MPLS.

To me the latter model makes sense because it allows the node that cannot =
process both the SRH and the Next Header to indicate that. The former mode=
l looks strange to me.

My 2c.


Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020, 15:17
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Brian E Carpenter
Cc: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-n=
etwork-programming
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC -=
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Yes thanks Brian for that response.

Sasha I want to correct one technical error in your email so your understa=
nding is clear. You say =93But PSP-flavored SIDs are NOT locally instantia=
ted in the penultimate node, they are instantiated in the ultimate node of=
 the path. =93

That is incorrect. A SID that is PSP flavor only performs the PSP operatio=
n when it is in the penultimate position in the segment list, and a SID is=
 only processed on the node that instantiates it. See the definition of pe=
nultimate segment in the segment list definition here. https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-2<https://click=
time.symantec.com/3AYVE1JJACQpvGS2xF9K2CY6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.=
org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-2>

Thanks
  Darren

________________________________
From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 3:36 AM
To: Brian E Carpenter
Cc: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-n=
etwork-programming; Darren Dukes (ddukes)
Subject: RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC -=
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

Brian,
Lots of thanks for a prompt and unambiguous response.

Regards,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 9:13 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>; Darren Dukes =
(ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont <fernan=
do@gont.com.ar>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC -=
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

On 12-Mar-20 05:06, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:
> Darren,
>
> Lots of thanks for the clarification.
>
>
>
> However, I have several issues with your response:
>
> 1.       The SRH draft is a 6MAN document. I am not sure if the
> provision for new documents defining new SID types and their handling
> means that such definitions can be done in the documents handled by
> other WGs,

They certainly can, because the decision point in the IETF is not the WG; =
it's the IESG, following an IETF Last Call. It's very common for one WG to=
 build on the output of another.

> especially since we see strong opposition to these changes from
> several participants of the 6MAN WG. (To make it clear, I am not a
> 6MAN WG member, and personally  neutral about PSP - but I am worried
> about the IETF process)
>
> 2.       The SRv6 Network  Programming draft has a Normative reference t=
o the SRH draft, but it does not ever mentions that it updates it (not in =
the text and not in the Metadata).

An extension is not necessarily an "update". This is a weakness in our voc=
abulary, and there is a current proposal to change it: https://clicktime.s=
ymantec.com/32AasVXnTQLbLb4xyAqqxWy6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2F=
html%2Fdraft-kuehlewind-update-tag

>
> 3.       Section 4.3.1 of the SRH draft defines the behavior associated =
with the SRv6 SID that */is locally instantiated/*, and explains that othe=
r SID types may be defined. But PSP-flavored SIDs are NOT locally instanti=
ated in the penultimate node, they are instantiated in the ultimate node o=
f the path. Therefore (and I may be too literal in my interpretation of th=
e SRH draft), I think that the provision for new documents defining new SI=
D types */only applies to locally instantiated SIDs of the handling node/*=
  and does not cover the PSP case.

I think this is governed by RFC8402, as I mentioned yesterday.

> In my original email I have suggested to the PSP/USP proponents to post =
a draft that updates the SRH one (or the RFC that hopefully soon will be p=
ublished) - and to run it thru the 6MAN WG in the usual manner. I understa=
nd that his will take time, but I still think that this would be the most =
appropriate way to resolve the current conflict that has already gone too =
far.

I don't see how that would help, since the argument is about the interpret=
ation of RFC8200 (and RFC4291), not about the SRH spec.

Regards
    Brian
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:*Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 11, 2020 4:44 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; Fernando Gont
> <fernando@gont.com.ar>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>;
> 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:
> WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> I think this question got lost in the other emails around this time.  Th=
anks for asking though and, let me clarify.
>
>
>
> The SRH doc was built with section 4.3.1 <https://clicktime.symantec.com=
/3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraf=
t-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3.1> stating:
>
> "Future documents may define additional SRv6 SIDs.  In which case, the
> entire
>
>    content of this section will be defined in that document.=94
>
>
>
>
>
> So draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header explicitly gives other
> documents the ability to fully define new SIDs.
>
> In those documents the behavior of those SIDs would be fully defined, re=
gardless of the text in section 4.3.1.
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is one of those documents, th=
ere are others that are and will be written defining new SID behaviors and=
 their processing, this was expected and is necessary for the definition o=
f new SIDs and their behaviors.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>   Darren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Feb 27, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainsht=
ein@ecitele.com <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I cannot say whether PSP is allowed or disallowed by RFC 8200.
>
>
>
>     But, to the best of my understanding,  format of SRH and its handlin=
g are specified by the IPv6 Segment Routing Header <https://clicktime.syma=
ntec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASGKwXGq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtm=
l%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26> draft that is owned by the =
6MAN WG and */is already in the RFC Editor queue/*. Specifically, handling=
 of the SRH by the Segment End Point ((of which PSP is a special use case)=
 is defined in Section 4.3.1.1 and says:
>
>
>
>        S01. When an SRH is processed {
>
>        S02.   If Segments Left is equal to zero {
>
>        S03.     Proceed to process the next header in the packet,
>
>                 whose type is identified by the Next Header field in
>
>                 the Routing header.
>
>        S04.   }
>
>        S05.   Else {
>
>        S06.     If local configuration requires TLV processing {
>
>        S07.       Perform TLV processing (see TLV Processing)
>
>        S08.     }
>
>        S09.     max_last_entry  =3D  ( Hdr Ext Len /  2 ) - 1
>
>        S10.     If  ((Last Entry > max_last_entry) or
>
>        S11.          (Segments Left is greater than (Last Entry+1)) {
>
>        S12.       Send an ICMP Parameter Problem, Code 0, message to
>
>                   the Source Address, pointing to the Segments Left
>
>                   field, and discard the packet.
>
>        S13.     }
>
>        S14.     Else {
>
>        S15.       Decrement Segments Left by 1.
>
>        S16.       Copy Segment List[Segments Left] from the SRH to the
>
>                   destination address of the IPv6 header.
>
>        S17.       If the IPv6 Hop Limit is less than or equal to 1 {
>
>        S18.         Send an ICMP Time Exceeded -- Hop Limit Exceeded
> in
>
>                     Transit message to the Source Address and discard
>
>                     the packet.
>
>        S19.       }
>
>        S20.       Else {
>
>        S21.         Decrement the Hop Limit by 1
>
>        S22.         Resubmit the packet to=20the IPv6 module for
> transmission
>
>                     to the new destination.
>
>        S23.       }
>
>        S24.     }
>
>        S25.   }
>
>        S26. }
>
>
>
>     I.e., 6MAN WG did not define any special processing of the SRH by th=
e penultimate segment endpoint. And the processing it has defined in the u=
ltimate segment endpoint  does not mention removal of the SRH either.
>
>
>
>     I do not think that SPRING WG can change these definitions by and of=
 itself.  If PSP is so important, a new individual draft updating the (yet=
 unpublished) RFC defining the SRH has to be submitted and discussed in th=
e 6MAN WG in accordance with the normal IETF process.
>
>
>
>     My 2c,
>
>     Sasha
>
>
>
>     Office: +972-39266302
>
>     Cell:      +972-549266302
>
>     Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g>> On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
>     Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:04 PM
>     To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar=
>>
>     Cc: 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List <spring@iet=
f.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Maojianwei (Mao) <maojianwei@huawei.com <=
mailto:maojianwei@huawei.com>>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
 <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org <mailto:draft-ietf-s=
pring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move
> forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>
>
>
>     This is really not helpful, Fernando, and goes some way toward expla=
ining why communication isn=92t happening.
>
>
>
>     What I reacted to in Brian=92s message is that he asked a really sim=
ple question that could be readily answered with a pointer to the text in =
the document where the answer is given.  Since the response was instead to=
 explain in email, that tells me that the spec is incomplete.
>
>
>
>     Separately, Brian mentioned=20that there is an issue with RFC8200 th=
at would require an update, that discussions had occurred around this, but=
 then the work never happened.   It=92s reasonable to raise an objection t=
o proceeding with work that depends on other work that hasn=92t been done.=

>
>
>
>     What I objected to in Maojianwei=92s comment is the notion that the =
document should pass last call to support the industry.  No, the working g=
roup should do the work to address the objections that have been raised.  =
 If you find yourself explaining some concept that=92s mentioned in the do=
cument using text that is not in the document and not in another document =
referenced by the document, the fix is not to just publish anyway, because=
 it supports the industry.   The fix is to update the document.   A dozen =
or so +1s should not be taken seriously if the work has not been done and =
nobody wants to do it.
>
>
>
>     > On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar <=
mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar>> wrote:
>
>     >
>
>     > On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote:
>
>     >> The IETF serves users, not =93industry=94.  The IETF does not pro=
mote. Our job is to make the internet work interoperably. Brian has raised=
 an objection that could be answered, but has not been. It is inappropriat=
e to say that this document has passed last call.
>
>     >> In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations =
like this it is because there is a wish to not address a concern that has =
been raised, not because the concern could not be addressed or should not =
have been raised. It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, but it=
 is not. It is part of the process.
>
>     >> Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simpl=
y answer it?
>
>     >
>
>     > As a service to the community, let me explain:
>
>     >
>
>     > Essentially, and for some reason, they seem to be meaning to circu=
mvent specs and processes.
>
>     >
>
>     > One of their last inventions has been to pretend that IPv6 allows =
EH insertion/deletion en-route, based on=20their reading of RFC8200. Based=
 on a curious interpretation of the text, they claim that each waypoint (i=
ntermmediate router that received the packet because its address was set a=
s de Destination Address) can insert/remove EHs, and they claim that that'=
s not a violation of RFC8200.
>
>     >
>
>     > However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fit in that fictional inter=
pretation of RFC8200.
>
>     >
>
>     > What PSP does is that, given:
>
>     >
>
>     > ---- B ----- C
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>     > routers, when B realizes, after processing the SRH and setting the=
 Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft=3D=3D0, it removes the SRH.
>
>     >
>
>     > This case is not even covered by their fictional interpretation of=
 RFC8200.
>
>     >
>
>     > Hence the question is avoided, u<because thye would have no option=
 than admiting they are violating RFC8200..unless... who knows... there mi=
ght be yet another curious interpretation of the spec that allows it.
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>     > It should eb evident here=20that the strategy is not really to fol=
low IETF process, gain consensus, formally update specs if/where needed, b=
ut rather push whatever they publish, at whatever cost, ignoring the issue=
s raised in this wg, and circumventing IETF process.
>
>     >
>
>     > The fact that this behavior is allowed seems to be unfair with par=
ticipants, and a dis-service to the group.
>
>     >
>
>     > Thanks,
>
>     > --
>
>     > Fernando Gont
>
>     > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar <mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar> || fgon=
t@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> PGP Fingerprint:
>
>     > 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>     >
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     spring mailing list
>
>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>
>
> https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF-RwnUUzVtRfX
> wdFqzmq0=3D?d=3Datw_kIqYFUZmbITw7iRdx05oul7SqRcF_hk-ksY2RXOVWKrcCK0_wLPV=
A5
> oOx3wxd3LHRWzwabnrklpMwnJcysKDzB7ZAlgkvkI_TBgMOmmWYTmUi7Cm9DeRzA9j6wTS
> FHHT2weAR7rEioVw_JRBIGcaxmodH6_sktn84eDFcI7b-TIpjSTD5gU0KWBiQuDvf1fgXA
> GOMtYb2BcOlbUxU6OvpXZ6eEmX0ugTpLkPxEZFSk2oe1Z9fA9GHFrSipsTECbnE9i46sWa
> YjDh7GATRMJrjPz08XHrqoPpRB7Hsm9rjbmV88d0ZyolqYLMiUxJbp5amhzqx_c2BeMoCN
> WWvFXQvMuI7SjxdfYP_1Gl0kSP848JuUk6nscdAGk9674LMjiQnz9vnahy-HtQGjQKqurW
> yHUm6-Tz1xtmpxiRiHJNYk2yxwQqWOUECBStdTdJLvRtWygm6L4Af-pDvPecd5eBAZ-N2Z
> NF2MODlL14q3R4Ewbq5YIX0rNIi1WDxNdv8YnDaK-qKbLgGNwUcBpswtWNGkMPNLYy0mNN
> lvCPHw%3D%3D&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsprin=

> g
>
>
>
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--_000_AM0PR0302MB321754A483B2D635FB4F5CC89DFD0AM0PR0302MB3217_
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<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
Darren,</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
My reading of your response is that in order to perform PSP, the penultima=
te route must advertise an SID it instanciates as PSP-flavored.&nbsp; Unti=
l now I have always assumed that PSP flavor is used with some SID that is =
substantiated by the ultimate node similar
 to a node that adveririses its Node SID with PHP flag in SR-MPLS.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
To me the latter model makes sense because it allows the node that cannot =
process both the SRH and the Next Header to indicate that. The former mode=
l looks strange to me.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
My 2c.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
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<div style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.2pt; color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0);"><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"><strong>From:</strong> Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt=
;ddukes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, March 12, 2020, 15:17<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Brian E Carpenter<br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont; draft-i=
etf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move fo=
rward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
</div>
<br>
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1252">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Yes thanks Brian for that response.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Sasha I want to correct one technical error in your email=
 so your understanding is clear. You say =93<span style=3D"font-size:14.66=
6666984558105px">But PSP-flavored SIDs are NOT locally instantiated in the=
 penultimate node, they are instantiated
 in the ultimate node of the path.</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.66666=
6984558105px">&nbsp;=93</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">That is in=
correct. A SID that is PSP flavor only performs the PSP operation when it =
is in the penultimate position in the segment list, and a SID is only proc=
essed on the node that instantiates it.
 See the definition of penultimate segment in the segment list definition =
here.&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3AYVE1JJACQpvGS2xF9K2=
CY6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-ro=
uting-header-26%23section-2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-s=
egment-routing-header-26#section-2</a></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px=
">Darren</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
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 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><=
b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;<=
br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 12, 2020 3:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian E Carpenter<br>
<b>Cc:</b> SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont; draft-ietf-spring=
-srv6-network-programming; Darren Dukes (ddukes)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:=
 WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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<div class=3D"PlainText">Brian,<br>
Lots of thanks for a prompt and unambiguous response.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Sasha<br>
<br>
Office: &#43;972-39266302<br>
Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-549266302<br>
Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Brian E Carpenter &lt;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt; <br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 9:13 PM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;; Darren =
Dukes (ddukes) &lt;ddukes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
Cc: SPRING WG List &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;; 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont &=
lt;fernando@gont.com.ar&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &l=
t;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC -=
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
<br>
On 12-Mar-20 05:06, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:<br>
&gt; Darren,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Lots of thanks for the clarification.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; However, I have several issues with your response:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The SRH draft is a 6MAN docume=
nt. I am not sure if the <br>
&gt; provision for new documents defining new SID types and their handling=
 <br>
&gt; means that such definitions can be done in the documents handled by <=
br>
&gt; other WGs,<br>
<br>
They certainly can, because the decision point in the IETF is not the WG; =
it's the IESG, following an IETF Last Call. It's very common for one WG to=
 build on the output of another.<br>
<br>
&gt; especially since we see strong opposition to these changes from <br>
&gt; several participants of the 6MAN WG. (To make it clear, I am not a <b=
r>
&gt; 6MAN WG member, and personally &nbsp;neutral about PSP - but I am wor=
ried <br>
&gt; about the IETF process)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The SRv6 Network &nbsp;Program=
ming draft has a Normative reference to the SRH draft, but it does not eve=
r mentions that it updates it (not in the text and not in the Metadata).<b=
r>
<br>
An extension is not necessarily an &quot;update&quot;. This is a weakness =
in our vocabulary, and there is a current proposal to change it:
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/32AasVXnTQLbLb4xyAqqxWy6H2?u=3Dh=
ttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-kuehlewind-update-tag">
https://clicktime.symantec.com/32AasVXnTQLbLb4xyAqqxWy6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-kuehlewind-update-tag</a><br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Section 4.3.1 of the SRH draft=
 defines the behavior associated with the SRv6 SID that */is locally insta=
ntiated/*, and explains that other SID types may be defined. But PSP-flavo=
red SIDs are NOT locally instantiated in the penultimate node, they
 are instantiated in the ultimate node of the path. Therefore (and I may b=
e too literal in my interpretation of the SRH draft), I think that the pro=
vision for new documents defining new SID types */only applies to locally =
instantiated SIDs of the handling node/*
 &nbsp;and does not cover the PSP case.<br>
<br>
I think this is governed by RFC8402, as I mentioned yesterday.<br>
<br>
&gt; In my original email I have suggested to the PSP/USP proponents to po=
st a draft that updates the SRH one (or the RFC that hopefully soon will b=
e published) - and to run it thru the 6MAN WG in the usual manner. I under=
stand that his will take time, but I still
 think that this would be the most appropriate way to resolve the current =
conflict that has already gone too far.<br>
<br>
I don't see how that would help, since the argument is about the interpret=
ation of RFC8200 (and RFC4291), not about the SRH spec.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Brian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Sasha<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Office: &#43;972-39266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-549266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From:*Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;ddukes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
&gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, March 11, 2020 4:44 PM<br>
&gt; *To:* Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;<b=
r>
&gt; *Cc:* Ted Lemon &lt;mellon@fugue.com&gt;; Fernando Gont <br>
&gt; &lt;fernando@gont.com.ar&gt;; SPRING WG List &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;;=
 <br>
&gt; 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <br>
&gt; &lt;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:=
 <br>
&gt; WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Sasha,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think this question got lost in the other emails around this time. =
&nbsp;Thanks for asking though and, let me clarify.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The SRH doc was built with&nbsp;section 4.3.1 &lt;<a href=3D"https://=
clicktime.symantec.com/3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.=
ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23section-4.3.=
1">https://clicktime.symantec.com/3LLGD1Uzfhu26ZSxmbnqzXQ6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%=
2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26%23s=
ection-4.3.1</a>&gt;&nbsp;stating:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;Future documents may define additional SRv6 SIDs. &nbsp;In whic=
h case, the <br>
&gt; entire<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;content of this section will be defined in that document=
.=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header explicitly gives other <br>=

&gt; documents the ability to fully define new SIDs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In those documents the behavior of those SIDs would be fully defined,=
 regardless of the text in section 4.3.1.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is one of those documents,=
 there are others that are and will be written defining new SID behaviors =
and their processing, this was expected and is necessary for the definitio=
n of new SIDs and their behaviors.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On Feb 27, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Alexander Vainsh=
tein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.=
Vainshtein@ecitele.com">mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;&gt=
; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I cannot say whether PSP is allowed or disall=
owed by RFC 8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But, to the best of my understanding, &nbsp;f=
ormat of SRH and its handling are specified by the&nbsp;IPv6 Segment Routi=
ng Header &lt;<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASG=
KwXGq6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment=
-routing-header-26">https://clicktime.symantec.com/3UnfQgAfW5ZSe3uASGKwXGq=
6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-6man-segment-rout=
ing-header-26</a>&gt;&nbsp;draft
 that is owned by the 6MAN WG and&nbsp;*/is already in the RFC Editor queu=
e/*. Specifically, handling of the SRH by the Segment End Point ((of which=
 PSP is a special use case) is defined in Section 4.3.1.1 and says:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S01. When an SRH is processed {<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S02.&nbsp;&nbsp; If Segments Lef=
t is equal to zero {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S03.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pro=
ceed to process the next header in the packet,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; whose type is identified by the Next Header field in=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the Routing header.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S04.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S05.&nbsp;&nbsp; Else {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S06.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If =
local configuration requires TLV processing {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S07.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Perform TLV processing (see TLV Processing)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S08.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S09.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; max=
_last_entry&nbsp; =3D&nbsp; ( Hdr Ext Len /&nbsp; 2 ) - 1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S10.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If&=
nbsp; ((Last Entry &gt; max_last_entry) or<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S11.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Segments Left is greater than (Last Entry&#43;=
1)) {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S12.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Send an ICMP Parameter Problem, Code 0, message to<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the Source Address, pointing to the Segm=
ents Left<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; field, and discard the packet.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S13.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S14.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Els=
e {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S15.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Decrement Segments Left by 1.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S16.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Copy Segment List[Segments Left] from the SRH to the<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination address of the IPv6 header.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S17.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; If the IPv6 Hop Limit is less than or equal to 1 {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S18.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Send an ICMP Time Exceeded -- Hop Limit Exceeded <br>=

&gt; in<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Transit message to the Sourc=
e Address and discard<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the packet.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S19.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S20.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Else {<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S21.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement the Hop Limit by 1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S22.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Resubmit the packet to the IPv6 module for <br>
&gt; transmission<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the new destination.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S23.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S24.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S25.&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; S26. }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I.e., 6MAN WG did not define any special proc=
essing of the SRH by the penultimate segment endpoint. And the processing =
it has defined in the ultimate segment endpoint &nbsp;does not mention rem=
oval of the SRH either.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not think that SPRING WG can change thes=
e definitions by and of itself. &nbsp;If PSP is so important, a new indivi=
dual draft updating the (yet unpublished) RFC defining the SRH has to be s=
ubmitted and discussed in the 6MAN WG in accordance with the normal
 IETF process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My 2c,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sasha<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Office: &#43;972-39266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-=
549266302<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Email:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">mailto:Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf.org &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;&gt; On Behalf Of Ted Lemon<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:04 PM<br>=

&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: Fernando Gont &lt;fernando@gont.com.ar &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar">mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar</a>&=
gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cc:&nbsp;6man@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
6man@ietf.org">mailto:6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;; SPRING WG List &lt;spring@iet=
f.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">mailto:spring@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;&gt;; Maojianwei (Mao) &lt;maojianwei@huawei.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ma=
ojianwei@huawei.com">mailto:maojianwei@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net=
work-programming@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net=
work-programming@ietf.org">mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC=
 and move <br>
&gt; forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is really not helpful, Fernando, and goe=
s some way toward explaining why communication isn=92t happening.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What I reacted to in Brian=92s message is tha=
t he asked a really simple question that could be readily answered with a =
pointer to the text in the document where the answer is given.&nbsp; Since=
 the response was instead to explain in email, that tells me that
 the spec is incomplete.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Separately, Brian mentioned that there is an =
issue with RFC8200 that would require an update, that discussions had occu=
rred around this, but then the work never happened.&nbsp;&nbsp; It=92s rea=
sonable to raise an objection to proceeding with work that depends on
 other work that hasn=92t been done.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What I objected to in Maojianwei=92s comment =
is the notion that the document should pass last call to support the indus=
try.&nbsp; No, the working group should do the work to address the objecti=
ons that have been raised.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you find yourself explaining som=
e
 concept that=92s mentioned in the document using text that is not in the =
document and not in another document referenced by the document, the fix i=
s not to just publish anyway, because it supports the industry.&nbsp;&nbsp=
; The fix is to update the document.&nbsp;&nbsp; A dozen
 or so &#43;1s should not be taken seriously if the work has not been done=
 and nobody wants to do it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Fernando Go=
nt &lt;fernando@gont.com.ar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar">ma=
ilto:fernando@gont.com.ar</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; The IETF serves users, not =93indust=
ry=94.&nbsp; The IETF=20does not promote. Our job is to make the internet =
work interoperably. Brian has raised an objection that could be answered, =
but has not been. It is inappropriate to say that this document has passed=

 last call.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; In my experience, when it is hard to=
 get consensus in situations like this it is because there is a wish to no=
t address a concern that has been raised, not because the concern could no=
t be addressed or should not have been raised. It may feel unreasonable,
 and like an imposition, but it is not. It is part of the process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Rather than trying to steamroll over=
 the objection, why not simply answer it?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; As a service to the community, let me ex=
plain:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Essentially, and for some reason, they s=
eem to be meaning to circumvent specs and processes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; One of their last inventions has been to=
 pretend that IPv6 allows EH insertion/deletion en-route, based on their r=
eading of RFC8200. Based on a curious interpretation of the text, they cla=
im that each waypoint (intermmediate router that received the
 packet because its address was set as de Destination Address) can insert/=
remove EHs, and they claim that that's not a violation of RFC8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; However, the PSP behavour doesn't even f=
it in that fictional interpretation of RFC8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; What PSP does is that, given:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; ---- B ----- C<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; routers, when B realizes, after processi=
ng the SRH and setting the Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft=3D=3D=
0, it removes the SRH.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; This case is not even covered by their f=
ictional interpretation of RFC8200.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Hence the question is avoided, u&lt;beca=
use thye would have no option than admiting they are violating RFC8200..un=
less... who knows... there might be yet another curious interpretation of =
the spec that allows it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; It should eb evident here that the strat=
egy is not really to follow IETF process, gain consensus, formally update =
specs if/where needed, but rather push whatever they publish, at whatever =
cost, ignoring the issues raised in this wg, and circumventing
 IETF process.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; The fact that this behavior is allowed s=
eems to be unfair with participants, and a dis-service to the group.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; --<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Fernando Gont<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; e-mail:&nbsp;fernando@gont.com.ar &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar">mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar</a>&gt;&=
nbsp;||&nbsp;fgont@si6networks.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks=
.com">mailto:fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt;&nbsp;PGP Fingerprint:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF =
D076 FFF1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _____________________________________________=
__<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; spring mailing list<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; spring@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@=
ietf.org">mailto:spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF=
-RwnUUzVtRfX">
https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/o-dBN-ZJMARHA7wJjIE7olF-RwnUUzVtRfX</a>=
<br>
&gt; wdFqzmq0=3D?d=3Datw_kIqYFUZmbITw7iRdx05oul7SqRcF_hk-ksY2RXOVWKrcCK0_w=
LPVA5<br>
&gt; oOx3wxd3LHRWzwabnrklpMwnJcysKDzB7ZAlgkvkI_TBgMOmmWYTmUi7Cm9DeRzA9j6wT=
S<br>
&gt; FHHT2weAR7rEioVw_JRBIGcaxmodH6_sktn84eDFcI7b-TIpjSTD5gU0KWBiQuDvf1fgX=
A<br>
&gt; GOMtYb2BcOlbUxU6OvpXZ6eEmX0ugTpLkPxEZFSk2oe1Z9fA9GHFrSipsTECbnE9i46sW=
a<br>
&gt; YjDh7GATRMJrjPz08XHrqoPpRB7Hsm9rjbmV88d0ZyolqYLMiUxJbp5amhzqx_c2BeMoC=
N<br>
&gt; WWvFXQvMuI7SjxdfYP_1Gl0kSP848JuUk6nscdAGk9674LMjiQnz9vnahy-HtQGjQKqur=
W<br>
&gt; yHUm6-Tz1xtmpxiRiHJNYk2yxwQqWOUECBStdTdJLvRtWygm6L4Af-pDvPecd5eBAZ-N2=
Z<br>
&gt; NF2MODlL14q3R4Ewbq5YIX0rNIi1WDxNdv8YnDaK-qKbLgGNwUcBpswtWNGkMPNLYy0mN=
N<br>
&gt; lvCPHw%3D%3D&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%=
2Fsprin<br>
&gt; g<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt; _____________________________________________________________________=
_<br>
&gt; _____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This e-mail message is intended for the recip=
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&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _____________________________________________=
______________________________<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---------------------------------------------=
-----------------------<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ipv6@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf=
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&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
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&gt; <br>
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&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _____________________________________________________________________=
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
References: <4F4FF5EC-690F-4C09-9101-98AB2DDFDE0C@liquidtelecom.com> <a38c3197-2513-4af6-cb4f-a0a96c082cb9@gmail.com> <fc7aa0a5-bf57-2407-1b37-06b1833a5abe@gont.com.ar> <f83272c1-8c66-ed03-02c0-dab5dd75e0a3@gmail.com>
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 11:40:35 -0300
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On 11/3/20 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 12-Mar-20 10:44, Fernando Gont wrote:
>> On 11/3/20 18:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> [....]
>>>
>>> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
>>> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
>>> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
>>> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
>>> in the RFCs.
>>
>> Didn't *you* write that document? ;-) : RFC7136
> 
> Well yes, in the context of IIDs used for SLAAC etc. But that's a bit more
> narrow than what we are discussing here, I think. I assume that SLAAC is
> not involved.

Isn'tpart of the rationale for RFC7136 that there are actually so many 
different ways to configure addresses that you cannot even assume SLAAC? 
(e.g., see the example on /127s for point-to-point links)



> Good catch, though ;-)

;-)


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:58:38 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHzoHbumzM76CFZCp+ec_OHvo+NCbMRRhtx7evGuw=DrZk1rZA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>,  Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Peter,

I think that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from
draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  I think that we should leave the
ability to include sub-sub-TLVs in the SRv6 End SID Sub-TLV, End.X SID
Sub-TLV, and LAN End.X SID Sub-TLV in the encodings for those sub-TLVs.

I don't think that the current text describing the SRv6 SID Structure
Sub-Sub-TLV would result in interoperable implementations.  Based on the
discussion with Ketan below, it appears that use cases for ISIS speakers
receiving advertised values of LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg.
Length are not currently well-defined.    So I think it makes sense to
defer the definition of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV to a future
document.

Thanks,
Chris

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> Dropping the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming authors since we
> are now back to discussing the ISIS extensions.
>
>
>
> Please check inline below.
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 05 March 2020 21:53
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>; lsr@ietf.org; SPRING
> WG List <spring@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; Peter Psenak
> (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>; Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Ketan,
>
>
>
> See inline [CB].
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <
> ketant@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> You are right in that there is no assumption that all SRv6 locators in a
> domain are allocated from the same block. Therefore knowing the blocks us=
ed
> in the domain is useful.
>
>
>
> [CB] Since you refer to "blocks" (plural) in this sentence, are you sayin=
g
> that in the scenario where all SRv6 locators in a domain are not allocate=
d
> from the same block, you would expect different routers in the same domai=
n
> to advertise different values of B and N?
>
> *[KT] While personally I believe it would not be the usual case, it is
> left to the operator.*
>
>
>
> For example, assume we have a network where all SRv6 locators in a domain
> are not allocated from the same block.  Router A advertises an SRv6 Locat=
or
> TLV with locator =3D 2000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV with some
> endpoint behavior.  Router B advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =
=3D
> 3000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. What
> should routers A and B advertise as the values of B and N in their SRv6 S=
ID
> Structure Sub-Sub-TLVs ?
>
> *[KT] It is difficult for me to figure out what the block and node parts
> are with such an addressing.*
>
>
>
>
>
> The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the B and N parts of the
> locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On the receiver side, th=
e
> IGP may not really do much with this information, however it enables
> propagation of this information from all nodes in the network to be
> advertised out via BGP-LS (or other mechanisms) as part of the topology
> feed. Once this is part of the topology feed, it enables use-cases on
> controllers to perform network wide validation of the SRv6 SID block
> provisioning and can also help in automation of the security aspects
> described in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5
>
>
>
> [CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anything with B and N, then
> I think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions needs to clarify
> this.  I have a similar observation about Fun. Length and Arg. Length in
> the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .  As far as I can tell, none of the
> endpoint behaviors that are currently specified to be carried in ISIS End=
,
> End.X, and LAN End.X SIDs sub-TLVs uses an Argument, so there is never a
> case where an SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value
> for Arg. Length. What should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero
> value of the Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn't use an
> argument?  Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS speaker needs
> to know the Arg. Length ?
>
> *[KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft do not have an argument
> nor is the use of B and N required for them. We cannot preclude a future
> use-case or extension where such behaviors introduced are also applicable
> to ISIS. So IMHO ruling such aspects out might not be the right thing to =
do
> from a protocol extensibility perspective.*
>
>
>
> *Thanks,*
>
> *Ketan*
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 02 March 2020 23:39
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> <40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <
> spring@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; Peter Psenak
> (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>; Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Ketan,
>
>
>
> Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 locators used in a domain
> from a single block is optional.
>
>
>
> However, assuming for the moment that a network operator has chosen to
> allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a single block, so that
> there is a well-defined value of B and N across a domain, what is the use
> of having a router advertise its own understanding of these two values?
> And what is a receiver supposed to do with this information?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> Thanks fort the follow up.
>
> Clarification inline [Bruno]
>
>
>
> *From**:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM
> *To:* DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Chris Bowers
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psenak (ppsenak)
> *Subject:* RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Hi Bruno,
>
>
>
> I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well described and
> covered in the net-pgm draft as also the corresponding IGP extensions. Is
> the question is more about the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part of it (what i=
s not in the block
> part is in the node part as per the text in the net-pgm draft)?
>
>
>
> The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the fo=
llowing:
>
> Under
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5
> =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2 =E2=80=A6 look under SRGB f=
or SRv6
>
>
>
> [Bruno]
>
> To clarify, my question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but r=
elated to the
> usage, by the receiver, of the following piece of information:
>
>
>
>       LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length
>
>       LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length
>
>       Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length
>
>       Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length
>
>
>
>
>
> So perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for h=
im to clarify.
>
> [Bruno] I=E2=80=99ll leave this to Chris.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *
> bruno.decraene@orange.com
> *Sent:* 28 February 2020 14:34
> *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> <40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>;
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; Peter Psenak
> (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org <lsr-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM
>
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since this is not a
> protocol specific thing.
>
>
>
> I believe the text in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clears
> says what locator block and locator node are. What more details do you
> think are required?
>
>
>
> [Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft could possibly clarify the
> usage of these information/fields by the receiver. Possibly using the sam=
e
> name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID Locator Block length) to ease the references
> between both drafts.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Bruno
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers
> *Sent:* 27 February 2020 22:46
> *To:* lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>
>
>
> SPRING and LSR WGs,
>
>
>
> I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator bloc=
k
> and locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  See original email below.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > LSR WG,
> >
> > Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the  SRv6
> > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the
> > locator block length and the locator node length.  The text refers to
> > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these
> > concepts.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator
> > node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1
> > which has the following text:
> >
> >     A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the SRv6 SID block
> >     (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operator) and N is the
> >     identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID...
> >
> > I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator
> > block and locator node.
>
> sure, but that would be in the
> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol
> specific constructs.
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
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--00000000000010e5fd05a0a9a188
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Peter,</div><div><br></div><div>I think that the SRv6=
 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-=
extensions.=C2=A0 I think that we should leave the ability to include sub-s=
ub-TLVs in the SRv6 End SID Sub-TLV, End.X SID Sub-TLV, and LAN End.X SID S=
ub-TLV in the encodings for those sub-TLVs.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>I don&#39;t think that the current text describing the
SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV would result in interoperable implementation=
s.=C2=A0 Based on the discussion with Ketan below, it appears that use case=
s for ISIS speakers receiving advertised values of LB Length, LN Length, Fu=
n. Length, and Arg. Length are not currently well-defined. =C2=A0=C2=A0 So =
I think it makes sense to=20
defer the definition of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV to a future docu=
ment.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,<br></div><div>Chris<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ketant@cisco.com">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-IN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-2861110910790788454WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Chris,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Dropping the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pr=
ogramming authors since we are now back to discussing the ISIS extensions.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Please check inline below.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 05 March 2020 21:53<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>; SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; draft-ietf-spr=
ing-srv6-network-programming &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-n=
etwork-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netwo=
rk-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Peter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Bruno De=
craene
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.d=
ecraene@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ketan,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See inline [CB].<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ke=
tant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Chris,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You are right in that there is no assumption that al=
l SRv6 locators in a domain are allocated from the same block. Therefore kn=
owing the blocks used in the domain is useful.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[CB] Since you refer to &quot;blocks&quot; (plural) =
in this sentence, are you saying that in the scenario where all SRv6 locato=
rs in a domain are not allocated from the same block, you would expect diff=
erent routers in the same domain to advertise
 different values of B and N?=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[KT] While personally I believe it would not b=
e the usual case, it is left to the operator.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example, assume we have a network where all SRv6=
 locators in a domain are not allocated from the same block.=C2=A0 Router A=
 advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 2000::/64, and an SRv6 End=
 SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior.=C2=A0
 Router B advertises an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 3000::/64, and an=
 SRv6 End SID sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A an=
d B advertise as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-=
TLVs ?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[KT] It is difficult for me to figure out what=
 the block and node parts are with such an addressing.</i></b><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the B and=
 N parts of the locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On the rec=
eiver side, the IGP may not really do much with this
 information, however it enables propagation of this information from all n=
odes in the network to be advertised out via BGP-LS (or other mechanisms) a=
s part of the topology feed. Once this is part of the topology feed, it ena=
bles use-cases on controllers to
 perform network wide validation of the SRv6 SID block provisioning and can=
 also help in automation of the security aspects described in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head=
er-26#section-5" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#secti=
on-5</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anythi=
ng with B and N, then I think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensio=
ns needs to clarify this.=C2=A0 I have a similar observation about Fun. Len=
gth and Arg. Length in the SRv6 SID Structure
 Sub-Sub-TLV .=C2=A0 As far as I can tell, none of the endpoint behaviors t=
hat are currently specified to be carried in ISIS End, End.X, and LAN End.X=
 SIDs sub-TLVs uses an Argument, so there is never a case where an SRv6 SID=
 Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should have a
 non-zero value for Arg. Length. What should an ISIS speaker do if it recei=
ves a non-zero value of the Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn=
&#39;t use an argument?=C2=A0 Are there any use cases envisioned where an I=
SIS speaker needs to know the Arg. Length
 ?=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[KT] The behaviors currently listed in the dra=
ft do not have an argument nor is the use of B and N required for them. We =
cannot preclude a future use-case or extension where such behaviors introdu=
ced are also applicable to ISIS. So
 IMHO ruling such aspects out might not be the right thing to do from a pro=
tocol extensibility perspective.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Ketan</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ketan<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Chris Bowers &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</s=
pan></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 02 March 2020 23:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ketant@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">ketant@cisco.com</span></a>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D</span><a href=3D"mailto:=
40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">40cisco=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">lsr@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">; SPRING WG List &lt;</span>=
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">s=
pring@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-=
network-programming
 &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netwo=
rk-programming@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;; Peter Psenak (=
ppsenak) &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">ppsenak@cisco.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;;
 Bruno Decraene &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">bruno.decraene@orange.com</span></a><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ketan,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 loca=
tors used in a domain from a single block is optional.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, assuming for the moment that a network oper=
ator has chosen to allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a singl=
e block, so that there is a well-defined value of
 B and N across a domain, what is the use of having a router advertise its =
own understanding of these two values?=C2=A0 And what is a receiver suppose=
d to do with this information?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium =
medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;border-c=
olor:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">Hi =
Ketan,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Thanks fort the follow up.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Clarification inline [Bruno]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-2861110910790788454gmail-m2090197595246396153gmail-=
m-4664080705648584948spelle"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">From</span></b></span><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR=
">:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">
 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:</span><a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">ketant@cisco.com</span></a><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Chris Bowers<=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"F=
R">lsr@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"FR">; SPRING WG List; draft-ietf-spring-srv=
6-network-programming;
 Peter Psenak (ppsenak)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Hi Bruno,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well described and c=
overed in the net-pgm draft as also the corresponding IGP extensions. Is th=
e question is more about the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part of it (what is no=
t in the block part is in the node part as per the
 text in the net-pgm draft)?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the foll=
owing:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Under <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routin=
g-header-26#section-5" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#secti=
on-5</a> =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2</a> =E2=80=A6 look under SRG=
B for SRv6<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bruno]</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">To clarify, my =
question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but related to the usa=
ge, by the receiver, of the following piece of information:</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 LB Length: SRv=
6 SID Locator Block length</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 LN Length: SRv=
6 SID Locator Node length</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fun. Length: S=
Rv6 SID Function length</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Arg. Length: S=
Rv6 SID Arguments length</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
So perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for him=
 to clarify.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bruno] I=E2=80=
=99ll leave this to Chris.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
Ketan<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr &lt;</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">bruno.decraene@orange.com</span></a><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28 February 2020 14:34<br>
<b>To:</b> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=3D</span><a href=3D"mailto:=
40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">40cisco=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;; Chris Bowers &lt;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">lsr@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">; SPRING WG List =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">spring@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;;
 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</span></=
a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;; Peter Psenak (ppsenak)
 &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">ppsenak@cisco.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node i=
n draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">Hi Ketan,</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"=
 lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr [</span><a href=3D"mailto=
:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:lsr-bounces@ie=
tf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
Hi Chris,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since this is not a prot=
ocol specific thing.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
I believe the text in <span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-p=
rogramming clears says what locator block and locator node are. What more d=
etails do you think are required?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">[Bruno] Speaking as an =
individual, the draft could possibly clarify the usage of these information=
/fields by the receiver. Possibly using the same name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID L=
ocator Block length) to ease the references
 between both drafts.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">--Bruno</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Ketan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lsr &lt;</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Bowers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 February 2020 22:46<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">lsr@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">; SPRING WG List =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">spring@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">ppsenak@cisco.com</span></a><=
span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-exten=
sions</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
SPRING and LSR WGs,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator block =
and locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or dr=
aft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.=C2=A0 See original email below.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
Chris<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:70.8pt">
On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium =
medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;border-c=
olor:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt">
Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:<br>
&gt; LSR WG,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the=C2=A0 =
SRv6 <br>
&gt; SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the =
<br>
&gt; locator block length and the locator node length.=C2=A0 The text refer=
s to <br>
&gt; [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these=
 <br>
&gt; concepts.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator =
<br>
&gt; node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1 <=
br>
&gt; which has the following text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the =
SRv6 SID block<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operato=
r) and N is the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID=
...<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator <=
br>
&gt; block and locator node.<br>
<br>
sure, but that would be in the <br>
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in <br>
draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol <br>
specific constructs.<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Chris<br>
&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses piece=
s jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees=
 et ne doivent donc</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, expl=
oites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur,=
 veuillez le signaler</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">a l&#39;expediteur et l=
e detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant s=
usceptibles d&#39;alteration,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute re=
sponsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its at=
tachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be pr=
otected by law;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be dist=
ributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received th=
is email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its=
 attachments.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altere=
d, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or fa=
lsified.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><=
u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les piec=
es jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000010e5fd05a0a9a188--


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "Bruno Decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
CC: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man WG" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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From: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/l_8H5IPUb8HfhxrlZroibVfDhmA>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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From nobody Thu Mar 12 08:35:58 2020
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:35:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 07:00:56 +1100
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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>,  Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>,  "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 01:41 Fernando Gont, <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:

> On 11/3/20 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > On 12-Mar-20 10:44, Fernando Gont wrote:
> >> On 11/3/20 18:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> >> [....]
> >>>
> >>> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> >>> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> >>> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> >>> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> >>> in the RFCs.
> >>
> >> Didn't *you* write that document? ;-) : RFC7136
> >
> > Well yes, in the context of IIDs used for SLAAC etc. But that's a bit
> more
> > narrow than what we are discussing here, I think. I assume that SLAAC is
> > not involved.
>
> Isn'tpart of the rationale for RFC7136 that there are actually so many
> different ways to configure addresses that you cannot even assume SLAAC?
> (e.g., see the example on /127s for point-to-point links)
>

Although SLAAC/EUI-64s might have triggered the work on what became
RFC7136, I've never seen it as SLAAC specific.

"

   In all cases, the bits in an IID have no generic semantics; in other
   words, they have opaque values.  In fact, the whole IID value MUST be
   viewed as an opaque bit string by third parties, except possibly in
   the local context.

"


RFC4291 is where forming addresses from EUI-64s is specified, and that
isn't SLAAC specific - there is no mention of SLAAC at all.

I've more generally thought that RFC7136 was saying that while a packet is
in-flight, the IID portion only has forwarding semantics, in addition to
the prefix and subnet fields, which is and makes it consistent with longest
match all 128 bits BCP 198 for unicast forwarding.

Any other semantics in addresses are limited to and shared by the original
packet source host and the final packet destination host. This, for
example, permits addresses to be used as anycast function identifiers once
the packet arrives at the final destination host.

So there is clear separation between the purpose of the network -
forwarding to reach the specified destination - and the destination host -
processing of the packet to serve the original, typically application,
purpose of the original source host sending it.

Regards,
Mark.



>
>
> > Good catch, though ;-)
>
> ;-)
>
>
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
>
>
>
>
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> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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>

--0000000000005741f805a0add00b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 01:41 Fernando Gont, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 11/3/20 23:34, Bria=
n E Carpenter wrote:<br>
&gt; On 12-Mar-20 10:44, Fernando Gont wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; On 11/3/20 18:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; [....]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; However, I can&#39;t find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids ad=
dresses<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It g=
oes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; against one of my design prejudices, but I can&#39;t find anyt=
hing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resembling &quot;Encoding semantics in address bits considered=
 harmful&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; in the RFCs.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Didn&#39;t *you* write that document? ;-) : RFC7136<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Well yes, in the context of IIDs used for SLAAC etc. But that&#39;s a =
bit more<br>
&gt; narrow than what we are discussing here, I think. I assume that SLAAC =
is<br>
&gt; not involved.<br>
<br>
Isn&#39;tpart of the rationale for RFC7136 that there are actually so many =
<br>
different ways to configure addresses that you cannot even assume SLAAC? <b=
r>
(e.g., see the example on /127s for point-to-point links)<br></blockquote><=
/div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Although SLAAC/EUI=
-64s might have triggered the work on what became RFC7136, I&#39;ve never s=
een it as SLAAC specific.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">&quot;</div><pre style=
=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   In all cases, =
the bits in an IID have no generic semantics; in other
   words, they have opaque values.  In fact, the whole IID value MUST be
   viewed as an opaque bit string by third parties, except possibly in
   the local context.
</pre><pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">&=
quot;</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">RFC4291 is w=
here forming addresses from EUI-64s is specified, and that isn&#39;t SLAAC =
specific - there is no mention of SLAAC at all.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;ve more generally thought that RFC7136 was sa=
ying that while a packet is in-flight, the IID portion only has forwarding =
semantics, in addition to the prefix and subnet fields, which is and makes =
it consistent with longest match all 128 bits BCP 198 for unicast forwardin=
g.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Any other semantics i=
n addresses are limited to and shared by the original packet source host an=
d the final packet destination host. This, for example, permits addresses t=
o be used as anycast function identifiers once the packet arrives at the fi=
nal destination host.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So=
 there is clear separation between the purpose of the network - forwarding =
to reach the specified destination - and the destination host - processing =
of the packet to serve the original, typically application, purpose of the =
original source host sending it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; Good catch, though ;-)<br>
<br>
;-)<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Fernando Gont<br>
SI6 Networks<br>
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">fgont@si6networks.com</a><br>
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 07:20:53 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2y2LmXB3Z1FuGoor4qY1rO6rtfvOCeec_pV+S2TVfOuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>,  Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>,  Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/oKUQLUlU2lbjFFt8ClNDGskFoE0>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 02:36 Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Jim
>
> Given RFC2460 definition of a link I am wondering which =E2=80=9Clink=E2=
=80=9D a loopback
> interface attaches to in your opinion?
>
>
>
RFC 4291 provides a definition.


  "The unicast address 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 is called the loopback address.
   It may be used by a node to send an IPv6 packet to itself.  It must
   not be assigned to any physical interface.  It is treated as having
   Link-Local scope, and may be thought of as the Link-Local unicast
   address of a virtual interface (typically called the "loopback
   interface") to an imaginary link that goes nowhere."



Regards,
Mark.

I would argue the answer to that is in the name =E2=80=93 loopback
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Andrew Alston
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 12, 2020 4:26 AM
> *To:* Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Darren Dukes
> (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Ron Bonica <
> rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6
> addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26
> violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>
>
>
> Brian,
>
>
>
> Let me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=93 =
I am happy to be
> wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I am writing may com=
e
> across as statements, it was easiest to write that way, consider the
> statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =E2=
=80=93 though I
> think we should probably consider this separately.  In reference to RFC84=
02
> this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:
>
>
>
> When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6
>
>    header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network as an IPv6
>
>    address.
>
>
>
> So =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are IP=
v6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is
> no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go into the destination field.  This =
is
> contrary to what Robert argued in an email found at
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmail=
archive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fspring%2Fu1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk%2F&dat=
a=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d951a1a08d7c6=
5f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637195983932632328&sdat=
a=3DkN2%2FKe5EHt1bWtcK9f0zQq07mMLQVK4HIZ5spUNEHzY%3D&reserved=3D0>
>
>
>
> Now, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.
>
>
>
> Section 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for
> interfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is defined=
 in
> RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.  This=
 document creates SID=E2=80=99s
> that have no binding to any interface.  Section 3 of the NP draft
> explicitly refers to lookups that lookup SID=E2=80=99s (which we have alr=
eady
> established are addresses) that have no interface bindings.
>
>
>
> In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this is e=
ntirely compliant
> with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=93 the function and =
arguments section
> of this =E2=80=93 have no relation to interface ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it=
 is debatable if this is
> as a result of problems in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =E2=
=80=93
> since it is this document that explicitly creates these function and
> argument sections independently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.
>
>
>
> Indeed RFC3587 states in section 3:
>
>
>
> [ARCH] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that
>
>    start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are 64 bits long
>
>    and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.  The format of
>
>    global unicast address in this case is:
>
>
>
>
>
> I fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this
> document describes are compliant with this.  Now, it can also be argued
> that there are many implementations that violate these specifications =E2=
=80=93
> Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback addresses, however, I
> would argue that it is a very different case for an implementation to
> violate the specification as for an RFC to violate the specification and
> make it into a standard.
>
>
>
> I will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being
> pretty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the claims=
 floating
> around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99t say =E2=80=93=
 perhaps its time to start
> examining this whole thing with a fine tooth comb so that we can end up
> with a better result that works for everyone and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to =
unintended
> consequences.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>; Darren Dukes
> (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Ron Bonica <
> rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing
> architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>
>
>
> On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
> > Hi Spring WG
> >
> >
> >
> > On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues rel=
ating the
> SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spring working
> group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93 and I wou=
ld now
> like to raise those issues in the context of that draft =E2=80=93 and the=
 fact that
> draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violates the address semantic
> specifications of RFC4291.
>
> I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard):
>
> SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing
> header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is
> associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6
> segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as
> an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.
>
> I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
> that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4291
> is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:
>
> IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
> An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each
> interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
> unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.
>
> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> in the RFCs.
>
> In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
> giving semantic meanings to address bits.
>
> Brian
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Can we please have a proper discussion on this
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
> > *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
> > *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, 6man WG <
> ipv6@ietf.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on
> draft-ietf-spring-network-programming.
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.=
ietf.org
> <mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren,
> >
> >
> >
> > Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because
> draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv=
6
> address semantics. If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closi=
ng issue
> 66 implies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in
> draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>                                                            Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Juniper Business Use Only
> >
> > *From:* ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> *On
> Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes)
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
> > *To:* EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <
> mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com
> <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com>
> >>
> > *Cc:* 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
> > *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating
> RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.
> >
> >
> >
> > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftrac=
.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2F6man%2Fticket%2F66&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40f=
uturewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d951a1a08d7c65f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5=
591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637195983932632328&sdata=3DQkZQTC9gfA7bjmANWqUIhQk4%2Fr5E=
Ckz1hXkUbIMeHxw%3D&reserved=3D0>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!=
NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4=
_$
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furld=
efense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2F6man%2Fticket%2F66__%=
3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rx=
aFg4_%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d=
951a1a08d7c65f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63719598393=
2642321&sdata=3DKAJ6gn4hxCzDjblX8IigFrkB2J8uIz%2BesLVfPWqTXqk%3D&reserved=
=3D0>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Darren
> >
> >
> >
> > >  Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
> >
> >  > association with RFC4291 and closed it with
> >
> >  > the text in the document.
> >
> >
> >
> > Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be
> useful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.=
ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fipv6&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40fu=
turewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d951a1a08d7c65f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d55=
91fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637195983932652318&sdata=3D9pahh101WJHVw5AQrT8lBMawkyZzHXO=
sVvK5VIk%2B82A%3D&reserved=3D0>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 02:36 Andrew Alston, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-KE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_1374889071273555307WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jim<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Gi=
ven RFC2460 definition of a link I am wondering which =E2=80=9Clink=E2=80=
=9D a loopback interface attaches to in your opinion? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">RFC 4291 provides a definition.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px">  &quot;The unicast address 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 is called the loop=
back address.
   It may be used by a node to send an IPv6 packet to itself.  It must
   not be assigned to any physical interface.  It is treated as having
   Link-Local scope, and may be thought of as the Link-Local unicast
   address of a virtual interface (typically called the &quot;loopback
   interface&quot;) to an imaginary link that goes nowhere.&quot;</pre><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regar=
ds,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"en-KE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_137488907127355=
5307WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I would argue the answer to tha=
t is in the name =E2=80=93 loopback<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">spring-bounces@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Alston<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 12, 2020 4:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;; Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Ron Bonica &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer">spring@ietf.org</a>; 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 add=
ressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violat=
ing RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Br=
ian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Le=
t me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=93 I am=
 happy to be wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I am writ=
ing may come across as statements, it was easiest to write
 that way, consider the statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Fi=
rstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =E2=80=93=
 though I think we should probably consider this separately.=C2=A0 In refer=
ence to RFC8402 this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Wh=
en an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network as an=
 IPv6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 address.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So=
 =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are IPv6 a=
ddresses =E2=80=93 there is no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go into the=
 destination field.=C2=A0 This is contrary to what Robert argued in an emai=
l found
 at <a href=3D"https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%=
3A%2F%2Fmailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fspring%2Fu1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEI=
z65Bk%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C337d560cf2=
6a4d951a1a08d7c65f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C6371959=
83932632328&amp;sdata=3DkN2%2FKe5EHt1bWtcK9f0zQq07mMLQVK4HIZ5spUNEHzY%3D&am=
p;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFpDe-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No=
w, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Se=
ction 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for interface=
s and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is defined in RFC2460=
 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 This doc=
ument
 creates SID=E2=80=99s that have no binding to any interface.=C2=A0 Section=
 3 of the NP draft explicitly refers to lookups that lookup SID=E2=80=99s (=
which we have already established are addresses) that have no interface bin=
dings.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In=
 section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this is entir=
ely compliant with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=93 the f=
unction and arguments section of this =E2=80=93 have no relation to interfa=
ce
 ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it is debatable if this is as a result of problems =
in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =E2=80=93 since it is this do=
cument that explicitly creates these function and argument sections indepen=
dently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In=
deed RFC3587 states in section 3:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black=
">[<a name=3D"m_1374889071273555307_ref-ARCH" rel=3D"noreferrer">ARCH</a>] =
also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that<u></u><u></u></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0 start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are 64 =
bits long<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0 and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.=C2=A0 The f=
ormat of<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0 global unicast address in this case is:<u></u><u></u></span>=
</pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I =
fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this document =
describes are compliant with this.=C2=A0 Now, it can also be argued that th=
ere are many implementations that violate these
 specifications =E2=80=93 Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback =
addresses, however, I would argue that it is a very different case for an i=
mplementation to violate the specification as for an RFC to violate the spe=
cification and make it into a standard.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I =
will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being pretty p=
edantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the claims floating =
around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99t say
 =E2=80=93 perhaps its time to start examining this whole thing with a fine=
 tooth comb so that we can end up with a better result that works for every=
one and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to unintended consequences.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Th=
anks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">An=
drew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">brian=
.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</=
a>&gt;; Darren Dukes (ddukes) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes@cisco.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Ron Bonica &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer">spring@ietf.org</a>; 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing a=
rchitecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC42=
91, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On=
 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Spring WG<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues re=
lating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spring=
 working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93 an=
d I would now like to raise those issues in the context
 of that draft =E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-progra=
mming violates the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.<br>
<br>
I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard):<b=
r>
<br>
SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing<br>
header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is<br>
associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6<br>
segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as<br>
an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft<=
br>
that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4291<b=
r>
is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:<br>
<br>
IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.<br>
An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each<br>
interface belongs to a single node, any of that node&#39;s interfaces&#39;<=
br>
unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.<br>
<br>
However, I can&#39;t find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses<br>
having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes<br>
against one of my design prejudices, but I can&#39;t find anything<br>
resembling &quot;Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful&quot=
;<br>
in the RFCs.<br>
<br>
In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to<br>
giving semantic meanings to address bits.<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can we please have a proper discussion on this<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From: *&quot;Darren Dukes (ddukes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ddukes=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ddukes@cisco.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt; *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03<br>
&gt; *To: *Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc=
.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Cc: *Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</=
a>&gt;, 6man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC=
4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on draft-ietf-spring-network-=
programming.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica=
=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org%20%3cmailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc=
.ietf.org &lt;mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Darren,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because draft-ietf-6man-segm=
ent-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv6 address semantics. I=
f that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closing issue 66 implies WG=
 consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed
 in draft-ietf-6man-network-programming?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
Ron<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Juniper Business Use Only<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From:*=C2=A0ipv6 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org%20%3cmai=
lto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6-bounce=
s@ietf.org &lt;mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0*On Behalf Of=
=C2=A0*Darren Dukes (ddukes)<br>
&gt; *Sent:*=C2=A0Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM<br>
&gt; *To:*=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a> &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@=
liquidtelecom.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Andrew.Alston@liqui=
dtelecom.com
 &lt;mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; *Cc:*=C2=A06man WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org%20%3cmailto:ipv=
6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org &lt;mailto:i=
pv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject:*=C2=A0Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violatin=
g RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps=
%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2F6man%2Fticket%2F66&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjam=
es.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d951a1a08d7c65f1100%7C0fee8ff2=
a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637195983932632328&amp;sdata=3DQkZQTC9gf=
A7bjmANWqUIhQk4%2Fr5ECkz1hXkUbIMeHxw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer">
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66</a> &lt;<a href=3D"https://nam11.=
safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2=
F__https%3A%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2F6man%2Fticket%2F66__%3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!R=
N-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_%24&amp;data=
=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d951a1a08d7c65=
f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637195983932642321&amp;s=
data=3DKAJ6gn4hxCzDjblX8IigFrkB2J8uIz%2BesLVfPWqTXqk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" t=
arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trac=
.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU74Vusek5FlDyBGg=
fC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_$</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew=
.Alston@liquidtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com &lt;mailto=
:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Darren<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0Hi Mark, the working group discussed the<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0&gt; association with RFC4291 and closed it with<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0&gt; the text in the document.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be use=
ful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://nam11.safelinks.protection=
.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fipv6&=
amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C337d560cf26a4d951a1=
a08d7c65f1100%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C6371959839326523=
18&amp;sdata=3D9pahh101WJHVw5AQrT8lBMawkyZzHXOsVvK5VIk%2B82A%3D&amp;reserve=
d=3D0" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div></div></div>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DISO-8859-1"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }p { margin-top: 0px; margin-=
bottom: 0px; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Microsoft YaHei UI';=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-fa=
mily: 'Microsoft YaHei UI'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</styl=
e></head><body>=0A<div><span></span><div style=3D"line-height: normal;"><f=
ont face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.6667px;">Hi =
all,</span></font></div><div style=3D"line-height: normal;"><font face=3D"=
Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.6667px;"><br></span></fo=
nt></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp;We have uploaded a new draft which discusses the concrete mechanis=
ms to embed LOOPS in SRv6 segment.<o:p></o:p></p><span microsoft=3D"" yahe=
i=3D"" ui';=3D"" font-size:=3D"" 14px;=3D"" color:=3D"" rgb(0,=3D"" 0,=3D"=
" 0);=3D"" background-color:=3D"" rgba(0,=3D"" font-weight:=3D"" normal;=
=3D"" font-style:=3D"" normal;text-decoration:=3D"" none;'=3D""></span> <f=
ont color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 14.6667px;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-=
loops-srv6-binding-00.txt" microsoft=3D"" yahei=3D"" ui';=3D"" font-size:=
=3D"" 14px;=3D"" font-weight:=3D"" normal;=3D"" font-style:=3D"" normal;'=
=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding-0=
0.txt</a><span microsoft=3D"" yahei=3D"" ui';=3D"" font-size:=3D"" 14px;=
=3D"" color:=3D"" rgb(0,=3D"" 0,=3D"" 0);=3D"" background-color:=3D"" rgba=
(0,=3D"" font-weight:=3D"" normal;=3D"" font-style:=3D"" normal;text-decor=
ation:=3D"" none;'=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></font></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0px 0in;"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 14.6667px;"><span style=3D"line-height: normal;">=
<br></span></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0px 0=
in;"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.6667p=
x;"><span style=3D"line-height: normal;">Segment Routing (SR) uses source =
routing techniques to&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"line-height: normal;">del=
iver the data through a pre-defined path and/or functions. &nbsp;</span><s=
pan style=3D"line-height: normal;">SRv6 (SR over IPv6) runs on best effort=
 IPv6 network, and its</span><span style=3D"line-height: normal;">&nbsp;se=
gments suffer from different levels of packet loss.&nbsp;</span></span></f=
ont></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0px 0in;"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 14.6667px; line-height: normal; background-color: transparent;">=
<font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif">This draft is a binding of LOOPS to SRv=
6&nbsp;</font></span><span style=3D"font-size: 14.6667px; line-height: nor=
mal; background-color: transparent;"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif">en=
capsulation, it&nbsp;</font></span><font style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 14.6667px; line-height: 1.5; background-color: transp=
arent;"><span style=3D"line-height: normal;">identifies&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"line-height: normal;">how to embed LOOPS in SRv6 segment&nbsp;</s=
pan></font><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.=
6667px; line-height: normal; background-color: transparent;">to perform in=
-network packet loss&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; font-size: 14.6667px; line-height: normal; background-color: trans=
parent;">recovery.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0px 0=
in;"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.6667p=
x;"><span style=3D"line-height: normal;"><br></span></span></font></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height:=
 normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;">Any questions and comments are=
 welcome.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;">Thank you very muc=
h!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;">Best regards,<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;">Jianglong Wa=
ng<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0in; font-size: 11pt;"><br></p><=
/div></div><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-Top: 0px; margin-Bot=
tom: 0px; margin-Left: 0.5em"><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #=
B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 8px; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKG=
ROUND: #efefef; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&n=
bsp;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts</a></div><=
div><b>Date:</b>&nbsp;2020-03-10&nbsp;00:48</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:leibo@chinatelecom.cn">Bo Lei</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:leibo@c=
hinatelecom.cn">Lei Bo</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wangjl50@chinatelecom.cn">Ji=
anglong Wang</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wangjl50@chinatelecom.cn">Jianglong</a=
>; <a href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org">Carsten Bormann</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
nieshzh@chinatelecom.cn">Shizhong Nie</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;N=
ew Version Notification for draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding-00.txt</div></di=
v></div><div><div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>A new version of I-D, draft-wang-loo=
ps-srv6-binding-00.txt</div>=0A<div>has been successfully submitted by Car=
sten Bormann and posted to the</div>=0A<div>IETF repository.</div>=0A<div>=
&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Name:		draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding</div>=0A<div>Revi=
sion:	00</div>=0A<div>Title:		Embedding LOOPS in SRv6</div>=0A<div>Documen=
t date:	2020-03-09</div>=0A<div>Group:		Individual Submission</div>=0A<div=
>Pages:		10</div>=0A<div>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-loop=
s-srv6-binding-00.txt</div>=0A<div>Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-loops-srv6-bi=
nding/</div>=0A<div>Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding-00</div>=0A<div>Htmlized=
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/htm=
l/draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</d=
iv>=0A<div>Abstract:</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; LOOPS (Local Optimizations =
on Path Segments) aims to provide local</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; in-netwo=
rk loss recovery.&nbsp; It can be used with tunneling protocols to</div>=
=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; efficiently recover lost packets on a single segment =
of an end-to-end</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; path instead of leaving recover=
y to the end-to-end protocol,</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; traversing the ent=
ire path.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Segment Routing (S=
R) leverages the source routing mechanisms and</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; s=
teers the packets through an policy instantiated as an ordered list</div>=
=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; of instructions called segments.&nbsp; LOOPS can be e=
mbedded in an SR</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; segment to improve the packet r=
ecovery. draft-welzl-loops-gen-info</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; defines the =
generic information model, without binding that to any</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;=
&nbsp; specific protocols, to be carried between LOOPS ingress and egress<=
/div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; nodes, which can be SR segment endpoints.&nbsp; =
This document specifies</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; the concrete mechanisms =
to embed LOOPS in SRv6 segment.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;=
</div>=0A<div>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the ti=
me of submission</div>=0A<div>until the htmlized version and diff are avai=
lable at tools.ietf.org.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>The IETF Secreta=
riat</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<=
/div></blockquote>=0A</body></html>
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To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
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(General comment: I am disciplining myself to minimise responses on this =
topic.)

On 12-Mar-20 21:26, Andrew Alston wrote:
> Brian,
>=20
> Let me clarify a few things =E2=80=93 for my own understanding =E2=80=93=
 I am happy to be wrong here, and if I am just let me know (while what I =
am writing may come across as statements, it was easiest to write that wa=
y, consider the statements clarification questions) =E2=80=93
>=20
> Firstly =E2=80=93 let us consider the RFC8402 argument for a second =E2=
=80=93 though I think we should probably consider this separately.=C2=A0 =
In reference to RFC8402 this draft states =E2=80=93 in section 3:
>=20
>    When an SRv6 SID is in the Destination Address field of an IPv6
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 header of a packet, it is routed through an IPv6 network a=
s an IPv6
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 address.
> =20
> So =E2=80=93 we establish that indeed =E2=80=93 SRv6 SID=E2=80=99s are =
IPv6 addresses =E2=80=93 there is no two ways about it =E2=80=93 they go =
into the destination field.=C2=A0 This is contrary to what Robert argued =
in an email found at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/u1AzYFp=
De-AhIxXdih2BEIz65Bk/

So it seems. But the term "SID" seems a bit slippery, even in its definit=
ion in RFC8402. However, as far as the IPv6 routing system goes, an addre=
ss is 128 bits long and cannot be otherwise.

> Now, lets look at this draft specifically in reference to RFC4291.
>=20
> Section 2 of RFC4291 states that IPv6 addresses are identifiers for int=
erfaces and sets of interfaces =E2=80=93 where an interface is defined in=
 RFC2460 as a =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=99s attachment to a link=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0=
 This document creates SID=E2=80=99s that have no binding to any interfac=
e.=C2=A0 Section 3 of the NP draft explicitly refers to lookups that look=
up SID=E2=80=99s (which we have already established are addresses) that h=
ave no interface bindings.

Yet the packet has been delivered to the host via an interface, which mea=
ns that it must be associated with that interface in some other node's ne=
ighbour cache. That's how it works for any address, even if it's associat=
ed with the loopback interface.

I think that what may be going on here is that the implementations implic=
itly handle SID-addresses exactly as if they were associated with the loo=
pback interface, because they have to, otherwise nothing would work. But =
once the SID gets into the NP logic, it's no longer viewed as an IP addre=
ss at all, because it might just as well have come from SRV-over-MPLS or =
something. Maybe. Just hand-waving here.
=20
> In section 3.1 =E2=80=93 this talks about the Locator =E2=80=93 this is=
 entirely compliant with section 2.5 of RFC4291 =E2=80=93 however =E2=80=93=
 the function and arguments section of this =E2=80=93 have no relation to=
 interface ID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 it is debatable if this is as a result =
of problems in RFC8402 or indeed, potentially both drafts =E2=80=93 since=
 it is this document that explicitly creates these function and argument =
sections independently of RFC8402 in section 3.1.

Well, interface IDs are actually invisible in the routing system anyway. =
Ultimately we route on (the longest match with) 128 bits.
 =C2=A0
> Indeed RFC3587 states in section 3:
>=20
> [ARCH] also requires that all unicast addresses, except those that
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 start with binary value 000, have Interface IDs that are 6=
4 bits long
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 and to be constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.=C2=A0 The=
 format of
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 global unicast address in this case is:

I wonder why that informational RFC isn't Historic? The current standards=
-track text on that point is in RFC4291, but is updated by RFC7136 to mak=
e EUI-64 optional and by RFC8064 to make EUI-64 a SHOULD NOT. It's just a=
 shame that we couldn't agree on the wording of 4291bis.
=20
> I fail to see how defining a function and arguments in the way this doc=
ument describes are compliant with this.=C2=A0 Now, it can also be argued=
 that there are many implementations that violate these specifications =E2=
=80=93 Linux allows you to bind entire /64s to loopback addresses, howeve=
r, I would argue that it is a very different case for an implementation t=
o violate the specification as for an RFC to violate the specification an=
d make it into a standard.

As somebody else pointed out, RFC7136 is pretty emphatic that the bits in=
 an IID should have no semantics. But (as far as I know) that isn't how I=
Pv6-SIDs work. As long as the routing protocols can treat them as opaque =
/128 values, it seems OK.

Regards
    Brian
=20
> I will also note and acknowledge that some may think that I am being pr=
etty pedantic here =E2=80=93 but considering the context and the claims f=
loating around about what other RFC=E2=80=99s say and don=E2=80=99t say =E2=
=80=93 perhaps its time to start examining this whole thing with a fine t=
ooth comb so that we can end up with a better result that works for every=
one and doesn=E2=80=99t lead to unintended consequences.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Andrew
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> *From:*Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 12 March 2020 00:30
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>; Darren Dukes (dd=
ukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.=
org>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing ar=
chitecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4=
291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote:
>> Hi Spring WG
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> On the basis of the below =E2=80=93 I must conclude that the issues re=
lating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spri=
ng working group in the context of the network programming draft =E2=80=93=
 and I would now like to raise those issues in the context of that draft =
=E2=80=93 and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violate=
s the address semantic specifications of RFC4291.
>=20
> I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard=
):
>=20
> SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing
> header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is
> associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6
> segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as
> an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header.
>=20
> I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft
> that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 42=
91
> is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says:
>=20
> IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.
> An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each
> interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces'
> unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node.
>=20
> However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses
> having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes
> against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything
> resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful"
> in the RFCs.
>=20
> In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to
> giving semantic meanings to address bits.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Can we please have a proper discussion on this
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com <mailto:ddukes@cisco=
=2Ecom>>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03
>> *To: *Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:rboni=
ca=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>
>> *Cc: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Al=
ston@liquidtelecom.com>>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>> *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC=
4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on draft-ietf-spring-network-=
programming.
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Darren
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc=
=2Eietf.org <mailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:rbonic=
a=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org%20%3cmailto:rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmar=
c.ietf.org>>> wrote:
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Darren,
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Didn=E2=80=99t we agree to close issue 66 because draft-ietf-6man-segm=
ent-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv6 address semantics.=
 If that=E2=80=99s the case, how can you say that closing issue 66 implie=
s WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in draft-ietf-6m=
an-network-programming?
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0R=
on
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Juniper Business Use Only
>>
>> *From:*=C2=A0ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org=
 <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org%20%3cmailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>>>=C2=A0=
*On Behalf Of=C2=A0*Darren Dukes (ddukes)
>> *Sent:*=C2=A0Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM
>> *To:*=C2=A0EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alst=
on@liquidtelecom.com> <mailto:EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> <Andre=
w.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailt=
o:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom=
=2Ecom>>>
>> *Cc:*=C2=A06man WG <ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@i=
etf.org%20%3cmailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>>
>> *Subject:*=C2=A0Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violatin=
g RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture?
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record.=C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66 <https://urldefense.com/v3/_=
_https:/trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RN-QFuaCraX6vU7=
4Vusek5FlDyBGgfC2Teh1Vz40nw0PBhWdPtA-SA3t_rxaFg4_$>
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Darren
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom=
=2Ecom <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston@liqu=
idtelecom.com%20%3cmailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Hi Darren
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> > =C2=A0Hi Mark, the working group discussed the
>>
>> =C2=A0> association with RFC4291 and closed it with
>>
>> =C2=A0> the text in the document.
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be use=
ful to back and refresh memories and wasn=E2=80=99t able to find them
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>=20


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From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Hi Chris,

On 12/03/2020 15:58, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> I think that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from 
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  I think that we should leave the 
> ability to include sub-sub-TLVs in the SRv6 End SID Sub-TLV, End.X SID 
> Sub-TLV, and LAN End.X SID Sub-TLV in the encodings for those sub-TLVs.
> 
> I don't think that the current text describing the SRv6 SID Structure 
> Sub-Sub-TLV would result in interoperable implementations.  Based on the

SRv6 base spec defines SID B, L, A, F.

SRv6 protocol specs are advertising these values with the SRv6 SID, they 
don't use them. The usage is outside of the scope of the protocol 
drafts. What exactly is the problem?

thanks,
Peter


> discussion with Ketan below, it appears that use cases for ISIS speakers 
> receiving advertised values of LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and 
> Arg. Length are not currently well-defined.    So I think it makes sense 
> to defer the definition of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV to a 
> future document.
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris
> 
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) 
> <ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Chris,____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Dropping the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming authors
>     since we are now back to discussing the ISIS extensions.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Please check inline below.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     *From:*Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>
>     *Sent:* 05 March 2020 21:53
>     *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>
>     *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>; lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>;
>     SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>;
>     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>     <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>; Peter
>     Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>;
>     Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node
>     in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
>     draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Ketan,____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     See inline [CB].____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>     <ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>> wrote:____
> 
>         Hi Chris,____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         You are right in that there is no assumption that all SRv6
>         locators in a domain are allocated from the same block.
>         Therefore knowing the blocks used in the domain is useful.____
> 
>     ____
> 
>     [CB] Since you refer to "blocks" (plural) in this sentence, are you
>     saying that in the scenario where all SRv6 locators in a domain are
>     not allocated from the same block, you would expect different
>     routers in the same domain to advertise different values of B and N?
>     ____
> 
>     */[KT] While personally I believe it would not be the usual case, it
>     is left to the operator.____/*
> 
>     */__ __/*
> 
>     For example, assume we have a network where all SRv6 locators in a
>     domain are not allocated from the same block.  Router A advertises
>     an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator = 2000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID
>     sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. Router B advertises an SRv6
>     Locator TLV with locator = 3000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV
>     with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A and B advertise
>     as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLVs ?____
> 
>     */[KT] It is difficult for me to figure out what the block and node
>     parts are with such an addressing./*____
> 
>     ____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the B and N parts of
>         the locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On the
>         receiver side, the IGP may not really do much with this
>         information, however it enables propagation of this information
>         from all nodes in the network to be advertised out via BGP-LS
>         (or other mechanisms) as part of the topology feed. Once this is
>         part of the topology feed, it enables use-cases on controllers
>         to perform network wide validation of the SRv6 SID block
>         provisioning and can also help in automation of the security
>         aspects described in
>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5____
> 
>         ____
> 
>     [CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anything with B and N,
>     then I think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions needs
>     to clarify this.  I have a similar observation about Fun. Length and
>     Arg. Length in the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .  As far as I can
>     tell, none of the endpoint behaviors that are currently specified to
>     be carried in ISIS End, End.X, and LAN End.X SIDs sub-TLVs uses an
>     Argument, so there is never a case where an SRv6 SID Structure
>     Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value for Arg. Length. What
>     should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero value of the
>     Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn't use an argument? 
>     Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS speaker needs to
>     know the Arg. Length ? ____
> 
>     */[KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft do not have an
>     argument nor is the use of B and N required for them. We cannot
>     preclude a future use-case or extension where such behaviors
>     introduced are also applicable to ISIS. So IMHO ruling such aspects
>     out might not be the right thing to do from a protocol extensibility
>     perspective.____/*
> 
>     */__ __/*
> 
>     */Thanks,____/*
> 
>     */Ketan/*____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>         Thanks,____
> 
>         Ketan____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         *From:*Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>         <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>
>         *Sent:* 02 March 2020 23:39
>         *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>         <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>
>         *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>         <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>         <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; lsr@ietf.org
>         <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>;
>         draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>         <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>;
>         Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>         <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>; Bruno Decraene
>         <bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator
>         node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
>         draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Ketan,____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 locators used in
>         a domain from a single block is optional.____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         However, assuming for the moment that a network operator has
>         chosen to allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a
>         single block, so that there is a well-defined value of B and N
>         across a domain, what is the use of having a router advertise
>         its own understanding of these two values?  And what is a
>         receiver supposed to do with this information?____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Thanks,____
> 
>         Chris____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com
>         <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>> wrote:____
> 
>             Hi Ketan,____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Thanks fort the follow up.____
> 
>             Clarification inline [Bruno]____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             *From**:*Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com
>             <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>]
>             *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM
>             *To:* DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant);
>             Chris Bowers
>             *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List;
>             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psenak
>             (ppsenak)
>             *Subject:* RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>             locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>             and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Hi Bruno,____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well
>             described and covered in the net-pgm draft as also the
>             corresponding IGP extensions. Is the question is more about
>             the “block” part of it (what is not in the block part is in
>             the node part as per the text in the net-pgm draft)?____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             The “block” is again not a new thing. Please check the
>             following:____
> 
>             Under
>             https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5
>             … look for “block”____
> 
>             https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2 … look under
>             SRGB for SRv6____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             [Bruno]____
> 
>             To clarify, my question was not specific to “block” but
>             related to the usage, by the receiver, of the following
>             piece of information:____
> 
>             ____
> 
>                    LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length____
> 
>                    LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length____
> 
>                    Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length____
> 
>                    Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             So perhaps I don’t get Chris’s point and would wait for him
>             to clarify.____
> 
>             [Bruno] I’ll leave this to Chris.____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Thanks,____
> 
>             Ketan____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             *From:*Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>             <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of
>             *bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>             *Sent:* 28 February 2020 14:34
>             *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>             <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>             <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; Chris Bowers
>             <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>
>             *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List
>             <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>;
>             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>             <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>             <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>;
>             Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>             <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>             locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>             and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Hi Ketan,____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             *From:*Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>             *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>             *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Hi Chris,____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since
>             this is not a protocol specific thing.____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             I believe the text in
>             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clears says what
>             locator block and locator node are. What more details do you
>             think are required?____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             [Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft could possibly
>             clarify the usage of these information/fields by the
>             receiver. Possibly using the same name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID
>             Locator Block length) to ease the references between both
>             drafts.____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Thanks,____
> 
>             --Bruno____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Thanks,____
> 
>             Ketan____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             *From:*Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>             <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers
>             *Sent:* 27 February 2020 22:46
>             *To:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List
>             <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>             *Cc:* Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>             <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>
>             *Subject:* [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator
>             node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
>             draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             SPRING and LSR WGs,____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             I think that we need a much more detailed description of the
>             locator block and locator node in either
>             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or
>             draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  See original email
>             below.____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             Thanks,____
> 
>             Chris____
> 
>             ____
> 
>             On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak
>             <ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>> wrote:____
> 
>                 Hi Chris,
> 
>                 On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
>                  > LSR WG,
>                  >
>                  > Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05
>                 defines the  SRv6
>                  > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines
>                 encoding for the
>                  > locator block length and the locator node length. 
>                 The text refers to
>                  > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the
>                 definition of these
>                  > concepts.
>                  >
>                  > As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator
>                 block and locator
>                  > node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10
>                 is section 3.1
>                  > which has the following text:
>                  >
>                  >     A locator may be represented as B:N where B is
>                 the SRv6 SID block
>                  >     (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the
>                 operator) and N is the
>                  >     identifier of the parent node instantiating the
>                 SID...
>                  >
>                  > I think that we need a much more detailed description
>                 of the locator
>                  > block and locator node.
> 
>                 sure, but that would be in the
>                 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
>                 draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a
>                 protocol
>                 specific constructs.
> 
>                 thanks,
>                 Peter
> 
>                  >
>                  > Thanks,
>                  >
>                  > Chris
>                  > ____
> 
>             _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
>             ____
> 
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>             ____
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>             Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
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>             a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.
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>             privileged information that may be protected by law;____
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> 


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To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, spring@ietf.org
Cc: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>,  Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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On 12/03/2020 12:33, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> writes:
> 
>> [KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft do not have an argument nor is the use of B and N required for them. We cannot preclude a future use-case or extension where such behaviors introduced are also applicable to ISIS. So IMHO ruling such aspects out might not be the right thing to do from a protocol extensibility perspective.
> 
> No opinion here on this sub-sub-TLV; however, it has been stated elsewhere that this document will be re-spun for each new behavior that is to be carried in IS-IS (not my personal preference, fwiw...).

"it has been stated elsewhere that this document will be re-spun for 
each new behavior"

I don't believe above was the outcome. Instead, a new document will be 
needed for any new behavior.

thanks,
Peter

> 
> Thanks,
> Chris.
> [as WG member]
> 


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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:47:38 +0000
Message-ID: <E432475D-D6CE-4F48-954A-478FD61F8697@cisco.com>
References: <D5A410FF-EEA3-4F01-8147-5E180EE35DE6@chopps.org> <A6B1D2E0-0230-468B-931F-C6C976BDC9DC@cisco.com> <84B6A844-0811-4317-8EC5-A204B2B23F23@chopps.org> <81EA92B2-5057-43F3-A895-53B08FB0D746@cisco.com> <7DDFB2C3-4C7D-4750-8B4B-8D96532B6A6D@chopps.org> <BD09DFAC-1A16-41F8-B204-38D98AA38050@cisco.com> <1114E167-1853-4004-A42F-E4F1185CB296@chopps.org> <A053B5E0-ECB3-42E8-9740-12B87DB0749B@cisco.com> <D136317A-5A91-4847-A613-35C36D3F9AEA@chopps.org> <9BBFFFEB-EECE-48D0-B50A-F5ECBCE105E8@cisco.com> <D0122F9F-EA04-4B34-8006-87D18B63F6AE@chopps.org> <DBFB350A-A261-4731-9DDD-E2C55F07FC6E@cisco.com> <958d83284c004446bf05f94f506818d2@nokia-sbell.com> <224AA788-46F2-4EB8-861F-BBA960843033@cisco.com> <ab16b3f977204ded93a81ca0ce0c33d1@nokia-sbell.com> <E25AB99A-100A-4A4A-86C0-801CA8F3EC6F@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - references
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 16:27:09 +0000
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Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - references
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Hi Pablo,

I have two comments regarding the References sections in the draft.


1) I think that below reference should be moved to the normative reference =
section

   [RFC6437]  Amante, S., Carpenter, B., Jiang, S., and J. Rajahalme,
              "IPv6 Flow Label Specification", RFC 6437,
              DOI 10.17487/RFC6437, November 2011,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6437>.

2) The reference used for the Ethernet frame is:
   [Ethernet]
              DigitalEquipment, Intel, and Xerox, "The Ethernet -- A
              Local Area Network: Data Link Layer and Physical Layer
              (Version 2.0)", November 1982.

What about using an IEEE specification instead? Using an IEEE specification=
 would avoid a downward normative references.

Following the example of https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4448 I would propos=
e the following, but that is really an open suggestion


   [802.3]      IEEE802.3-2005, ISO/IEC 8802-3: 2000 (E), "IEEE Standard
                for Information technology -- Telecommunications and
                information exchange between systems -- Local and
                metropolitan
                 area networks -- Specific requirements -- Part 3:
                Carrier Sense Multiple Access with Collision Detection
                (CSMA/CD) Access Method and Physical Layer
                Specifications", 2005.


Thanks,
Regards,
--Bruno

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Pablo,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">I have two comments regarding the References sections in the draft.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">1) I think that below reference should be moved to the normative referen=
ce section<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span>[RFC6437]<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span><span class=
=3D"SpellE">Amante</span>, S., Carpenter, B., Jiang, S., and J.
<span class=3D"SpellE">Rajahalme</span>,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>&quot;IPv6 Flow Label Specification&quot;, RFC 6437,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>DOI 10.17487/RFC6437, November 2011,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>&lt;https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6437&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">2) The reference used for the Ethernet frame is:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span>[Ethernet]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"SpellE">DigitalEquipment</span>, Intel, and Xerox, &q=
uot;The Ethernet -- A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Local Area Network: Data Link Layer and Physical Layer<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>(Version 2.0)&quot;, November 1982.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">What about using an IEEE specification instead? Using an IEEE specificat=
ion would avoid a downward normative references.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Following the example of https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4448 I would pro=
pose the following, but that is really an open suggestion<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span>[802.3]<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </span>IEEE802.3-2005, ISO/IEC 8802-3: 2000 (E), &quot;IEEE Standard<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span>for Information technology -- Telecommunications and<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</spa=
n>information exchange between systems -- Local and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span>metropolitan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>area networks -- Specific requirements -- Part 3:<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span>Carrier Sense Multiple Access with Collision Detection<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span>(CSMA/CD) Access Method and Physical Layer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span>Specifications&quot;, 2005.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">--Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yIOpaMCscrXJi0SXPTq4HWw2Y_s>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed
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Hi Ali,

I apologize for late reply. Sure. Makes perfectly sense. I created the foll=
owing draft

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-00.txt

Could you please review it and feedback me. I will call for adoption at the=
 OPSAWG working group if that makes sense to you. From my perspective, in t=
he past, RFC's adding only additional operational related IPFIX information=
 entities into the IANA registry were handled at OPSAWG.

Best Wishes
Thomas

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 4:59 PM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed

Hi Thomas,

I agree with you.
I think draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 is not the right place.

May be we can write a very small draft (in PCE WG)?

Thanks

Regards ... Zafar

From: <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com<mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>>
Date: Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:49 AM
To: <zali@cisco.com<mailto:zali@cisco.com>>, <draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-a=
ccounting@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>>
Cc: <spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed

Hi Zafar,

Correct. For instance next free value 6 for SID at IPFIX entity 46.

We have seen vendor implementation marking 5 even though the label value is=
 a SID, not coming from LDP. This due to the fact that there is no value as=
signed for SID yet.

Best Wishes
Thomas Graf
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Network Engineer
Datacenter Functions
Telefon +41-58-223 84 01
Mobile   +41-79-728 80 12
thomas.graf@swisscom.com<mailto:thomas.graf@swisscom.com>
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Swisscom (Schweiz) AG
IT, Network & Infrastructure
Datacenter Functions
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich
www.swisscom.com<http://www.swisscom.com/>
Postadresse:
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich


From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com<mailto:zali@cisco.com>>
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 3:44 PM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com<mailto:Thomas.Graf@s=
wisscom.com>>; draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org<mailto:draft=
-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.c=
om<mailto:zali@cisco.com>>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed

Hi Thomas

Did you mean there is a need for IPFIX MPLS label type entry for Binding SI=
D?
Can you please elaborate?

Thanks

Regards ... Zafar

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com<mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>" <Thoma=
s.Graf@swisscom.com<mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>>
Date: Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:31 AM
To: "draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ali-sprin=
g-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>" <draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@=
ietf.org<mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org>>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org<mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org>>
Subject: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed

Dear Zafar, Dear draft authors,

I reviewed draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 and tested it in Swiss=
com's lab. Planning to deploy it in the production network in the coming mo=
nths.

The draft is very straight forward and easy to read. I have only one small =
comment regarding section 7, IANA Considerations.

In IPFIX entity type 46 at IANA, the top label type (label source) is defin=
ed. In the following section the possible values are described:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipfix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type<ht=
tps://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iana.=
org%2Fassignments%2Fipfix%2Fipfix.xhtml%23ipfix-mpls-label-type&data=3D02%7=
C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7C5f16412781aa47f3410e08d7bdf97398%7C364e5=
b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637186751391408992&sdata=3DbvJmdUxj%2=
B%2FVZ6%2BOZjuk1aIiuNT%2FQUI874WT7tYiRbH4%3D&reserved=3D0>

For Segment Routing an additional value needs to be defined and your draft =
seems to be the right place to cover that.

Hope that makes sense.

Best Wishes
Thomas Graf
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Network Engineer
Datacenter Functions
Telefon +41-58-223 84 01
Mobile   +41-79-728 80 12
thomas.graf@swisscom.com<mailto:thomas.graf@swisscom.com>
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
Swisscom (Schweiz) AG
IT, Network & Infrastructure
Datacenter Functions
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich
www.swisscom.com<http://www.swisscom.com/>
Postadresse:
Binzring 17
8045 Z=FCrich



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">Hi Ali,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">I apologize for late reply. Sure. Makes perfectly sense. I create=
d the following draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-00.txt">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-labe=
l-type-00.txt</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareas=
t-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">Could you please review it and feedback me. I will call for adopt=
ion at the OPSAWG working group if that makes sense
 to you. From my perspective, in the past, RFC's adding only additional ope=
rational related IPFIX information entities into the IANA registry were han=
dled at OPSAWG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">Best Wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US">Thomas</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 1, 2020 4:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF &lt;Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 revi=
ewed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Thomas, <o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree with you. <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think draft-ali-spring-sr-tra=
ffic-accounting-04 is not the right place.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">May be we can write a very smal=
l draft (in PCE WG)?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards &#8230; Zafar <o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co=
lor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com">Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:49 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org">draft-=
ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 revi=
ewed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Hi Zafar,</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">&nbsp;</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Correct. For inst=
ance next free value 6 for SID at IPFIX entity 46.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">&nbsp;</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">We have seen vend=
or implementation marking 5 even though the label value is a SID, not comin=
g from LDP. This due to the fact that there is no
 value assigned for SID yet.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">&nbsp;</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Best Wishes</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Thomas Graf<br>
<sup>______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
</sup>Network Engineer<br>
Datacenter Functions</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Telefon &#43;41-58-2=
23 84 01<br>
Mobile&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;41-79-728 80 12<br>
</span><u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"mailto:thomas.graf@swi=
sscom.com"><span style=3D"color:blue">thomas.graf@swisscom.com</span></a><b=
r>
</span></u><sup><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">___________________________=
_________________________________________________<br>
</span></sup><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Swisscom (Schweiz) AG<br>
IT, Network &amp; Infrastructure<br>
Datacenter Functions<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.swisscom.com/"><span style=3D"color:blue">www.swisscom.com</span></a><=
/span></u><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:gray">Postadresse:<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">&nbsp;</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 1, 2020 3:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf@swiss=
com.com">Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org">draft-al=
i-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Al=
i (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 revi=
ewed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Thomas <o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Did you mean there is a need fo=
r IPFIX MPLS label type entry for Binding SID?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Can you please elaborate? <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards &#8230; Zafar <o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co=
lor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spri=
ng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com">Thoma=
s.Graf@swisscom.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.co=
m">Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:31 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@i=
etf.org">draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org">draft-ali-sp=
ring-sr-traffic-accounting@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quo=
t; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] draft-ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting-04 reviewed=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Dear Zafar, Dear draft authors,=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">I reviewed draft-ali-spring-sr-=
traffic-accounting-04 and tested it in Swisscom's lab. Planning to deploy i=
t in the production network in the coming months.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">The draft is very straight forw=
ard and easy to read. I have only one small comment regarding section 7, IA=
NA Considerations.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">In IPFIX entity type 46 at IANA=
, the top label type (label source) is defined. In the following section th=
e possible values are described:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://eur03.safeli=
nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iana.org%2Fassignments%=
2Fipfix%2Fipfix.xhtml%23ipfix-mpls-label-type&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CThomas.G=
raf%40swisscom.com%7C5f16412781aa47f3410e08d7bdf97398%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9be=
ec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637186751391408992&amp;sdata=3DbvJmdUxj%2B%2FVZ6%2B=
OZjuk1aIiuNT%2FQUI874WT7tYiRbH4%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https://www.iana.org/a=
ssignments/ipfix/ipfix.xhtml#ipfix-mpls-label-type</a></span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">For Segment Routing an addition=
al value needs to be defined and your draft seems to be the right place to =
cover that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Hope that makes sense.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif">Best Wishes</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Thomas Graf<br>
<sup>______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
</sup>Network Engineer<br>
Datacenter Functions</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Telefon &#43;41-58-2=
23 84 01<br>
Mobile&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;41-79-728 80 12<br>
</span><u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"mailto:thomas.graf@swi=
sscom.com"><span style=3D"color:blue">thomas.graf@swisscom.com</span></a><b=
r>
</span></u><sup><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">___________________________=
_________________________________________________<br>
</span></sup><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:gray">Swisscom (Schweiz) AG<br>
IT, Network &amp; Infrastructure<br>
Datacenter Functions<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.swisscom.com/"><span style=3D"color:blue">www.swisscom.com</span></a><=
/span></u><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:gray">Postadresse:<br>
Binzring 17<br>
8045 Z=FCrich<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - references
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 10:15:32 +0000
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From nobody Mon Mar 16 10:39:36 2020
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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Hi,

> How this relates to NETPGM
> - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.
> - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.

This will need some work, because according to =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1: "IPv6 addresses of all =
types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.". I think at least defining =
a pseudo-interface (like a loopback) is required to comply with RFC =
4291.

Speaking as an operator: this would also make SRv6 SIDs easier to =
understand conceptually. It would also make it easier to debug because =
the SID would be a "normal" IPv6 address on an interface, not something =
that isn't visible in the RIB/FIB but is still handled in the local =
router. Having a RIB/FIB entry and an interface (if only a pseudo one) =
would make existing debugging practices easier to apply.

If NETPGM deviates from RFC 4291 I think that needs to be strongly =
justified. Not deviating from existing standards should be the default =
:)

Cheers,
Sander


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To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
References: <B2206CB2-7E2F-4180-8C1D-A5DE6322E607@cisco.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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Darren, I had assumed that 8754 did indeed define things the way you use 
them.  However, I can not find the assertions you make.

The short text in section 3.3 of RFC 6754 does not seem to create a 
distinction between segment or local interface.  For that to be the 
justification for SIDs do not have to interfaces is putting a lot of 
weight, and a significant change in the IP address architecture, on two 
words in an informative paragraph.
Further, section 4.3 draws a distinction between processing a SID and 
processing a packet addressed to an interface and that "is not locally 
instantiated as an SRv6 SID"  That does not create the distinction you 
are arguing for.

Nothing in either document lays any groundwork I can see for 
LOC:FUNC:ARG.  On the one hand, 8402 applies to MPLS, which does not use 
any such distinction.  And when I search those documents, )maybe I 
missed something) I did not find any references to 'arg" or "loc" that 
seemed relevant.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/16/2020 12:45 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> The following are some observations on SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing as they pertain to draft-ietf-spring-network-programming (NETPGM)
> 
> SRv6 RFCs tell us the following as it relates to SRv6 SIDs, IPv6 addresses and how SIDs are identified and assigned:
> - RFC8402 tells us an SRv6 SID is an IPv6 address.
> - RFC8754 section 1 defines SRv6 and its instantiation in the IPv6 dataplane, along with SID terminology
> - RFC8754 section 2 defines Segment List as a list of IPv6 addresses
> - RFC8754 section 3.3 defines an SR segment endpoint node, making the distinction between "segment or local interface."
> - RFC8754 section 4.3 describes processing at segment endpoint node for either; a fib entry representing a locally instantiated SRv6 SID, or a local interface not instantiated as a SRv6 SID.
> - RFC8754 section 5 describes the Intra-SR-Domain deployment model, where:
>   - within the SR domain "Allocate all the SIDs from a block S/s"
>   - within the SR domain “Assign all interface addresses from prefix A/a"
>   - At node k [within the SR domain], all SIDs local to k are assigned from prefix Sk/sk
> 
> How this relates to NETPGM
> - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.
> - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.
> - SRv6 SIDs are allocated from S/s within the SR domain (NETPGM formalizes this as B)
> - SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at node k in prefix Sk/sk (NETPGM formalizes this as LOC, or B:N for node N)
> - SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at a node using the remaining bits of Sk/sk (NETPGM formalizes this as FUNC:ARG)
> 
> NETPGM and the representation of a SID as LOC:FUNC:ARG are expected by RFC8402 and RFC8754 and inline with both.
> NETPGM formalizes the concepts previously described, and required within the SR domain.
> 
> Darren
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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From nobody Mon Mar 16 12:19:29 2020
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-14.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Pablo Camarillo Garvia
                          John Leddy
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Zhenbin Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-14.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-16

Abstract:
   The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
   an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
   encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.

   Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
   network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.

   This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
   specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
   interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
   Agreements).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-14
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-14

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-14


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Mon Mar 16 12:23:23 2020
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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The changes in section 4.16.1 do improve the clarity.

Having said that, the text about motivating PSP reads:
     PSP allows, for example, for an egress PE to receive a packet
     with a segment in the DA of the outer header without any need to
     process the	SRH.
is a very weak and confusing explanation.  Given that 8200 requires 
nodes to be able to ignore any routing header with SL=0, the text as 
written seems to be without benefit.  Yes, I have seen descriptions of 
the benefits from others on the list.  But this text is not it.

If indeed the benefit is a node where any extension header presence 
causes much slower processing (as was alluded to by other posters on the 
list) then it seems that should be acknowledged in the description. 
Doing something slowly is indeed still compliant to 8200.
I have asked that we go a step further, and acknowledge that such nodes 
have other limitations and that if we are going to make allowance for 
them, we should call out those other issues as well.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/16/2020 2:55 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Please check revision 13 of this document that clarifies the PSP section.
> 
> About your last point:
> For both SR-MPLS and SRv6, there are restrictions on the path to be used, in particular:
> - the SR policy may only use SIDs instantiated on SR Endpoints.
> - When computing the SR policy, there are additional restrictions to consider, such as the Maximum SID Depth (MSD) capability of nodes in the topology. (for SRv6, see section 4 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions).
> 
> Regards,
> Pablo.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 19:26
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
> 
>      Pablo, in your reply below you say that the text in 8200 is "crystal
>      clear".  It requires an interesting lens to find something "crystal
>      clear" about which so many people have expressed so much disagreement.
>      While a lawyer may claim to a judge that text in a contract is crystal
>      clear, it is almost always hyperbole.  That may be useful in other
>      contexts.  It is not useful here.
>      
>      As far as I can tell, the text allows the interpretation that the PSP
>      protagonists have reached.  It also allows other interpretations.  In
>      the absence of clarity, I can not claim that PSP biolates 8200.  But it
>      sure as heck is not "crystal clear".
>      
>      I also find the articulated use cases for PSP muddy.  And as far as I
>      can tell, if the use cases are accurate, then there is a need for
>      greater clarity in the underlying drafts (NP because I do not want to
>      try call back the base SRH document) about the restrictions on paths
>      that can be used.
>      
>      Yours,
>      Joel
>      
>      On 3/10/2020 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>      > Hi Chris,
>      >
>      > Thanks for going through the document.
>      > The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>      >
>      > As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the BSID.
>      > Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for transmission.
>      >
>      > Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
>      > That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>      >
>      > Hope it clarifies.
>      >
>      > Thanks,
>      > Pablo.
>      >
>      > [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>      >
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>      > Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>      > To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>      > Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>      > Subject: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>      >
>      >      In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>      >
>      >      "
>      >         When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.BM
>      >         SID, does:
>      >
>      >        S01. When an SRH is processed {
>      >        S02.   If (Segments Left == 0) {
>      >      ....
>      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      >        S04.   }
>      >        S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <= 1) {
>      >      ....
>      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      >        S07.   }
>      >        S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {
>      >      ....
>      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      >        S11.   }
>      >      ....
>      >        S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to the
>      >                  topmost label.
>      >        S16. }
>      >      "
>      >
>      >      The text then says:
>      >
>      >         When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a FIB
>      >         entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the packet
>      >         as per Section 4.1.1.
>      >
>      >      Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this point?
>      >
>      >      Thanks,
>      >      Chris.
>      >      _______________________________________________
>      >      spring mailing list
>      >      spring@ietf.org
>      >      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > spring mailing list
>      > spring@ietf.org
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>      >
>      
> 
> 


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 06:23:36 +1100
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To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 04:39 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > How this relates to NETPGM
> > - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.
> > - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.
>
> This will need some work, because according to
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1: "IPv6 addresses of all
> types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.". I think at least defining a
> pseudo-interface (like a loopback) is required to comply with RFC 4291.
>
> Speaking as an operator: this would also make SRv6 SIDs easier to
> understand conceptually. It would also make it easier to debug because the
> SID would be a "normal" IPv6 address on an interface, not something that
> isn't visible in the RIB/FIB but is still handled in the local router.
> Having a RIB/FIB entry and an interface (if only a pseudo one) would make
> existing debugging practices easier to apply.
>

It is also becomes a high level handle or object to attach related
configuration to, a policy point for applying packet filters/ACLs, and the
interface counters become easy to access, although not specific, function
counters.

For example, an SR virtual interface's counters become basic counters of
the SR traffic that has been received and sent, accessible via standard
SNMP interface OIDs.

Early Cisco and Linux kernel IPsec implementations didn't use virtual
interfaces to represent tunnels. They both moved to doing so fairly quickly
for the same sorts of reasons.


> If NETPGM deviates from RFC 4291 I think that needs to be strongly
> justified. Not deviating from existing standards should be the default :)


A major benefit of compliance with existing standards is you get to take
advantage of existing implementations, models, knowledge and experience. A
lot of things come for free because they already exist.

Regards,
Mark.



> Cheers,
> Sander
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--00000000000025443305a0fdc2bf
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 04:39 Sander Steffann, &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:sander@steffann.nl" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">sander@steffann.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
&gt; How this relates to NETPGM<br>
&gt; - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.<br>
&gt; - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.<br>
<br>
This will need some work, because according to <a href=3D"https://tools.iet=
f.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1<=
/a>: &quot;IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not node=
s.&quot;. I think at least defining a pseudo-interface (like a loopback) is=
 required to comply with RFC 4291.<br>
<br>
Speaking as an operator: this would also make SRv6 SIDs easier to understan=
d conceptually. It would also make it easier to debug because the SID would=
 be a &quot;normal&quot; IPv6 address on an interface, not something that i=
sn&#39;t visible in the RIB/FIB but is still handled in the local router. H=
aving a RIB/FIB entry and an interface (if only a pseudo one) would make ex=
isting debugging practices easier to apply.<br></blockquote></div></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It is also becomes a high level =
handle or object to attach related configuration to, a policy point for app=
lying packet filters/ACLs, and the interface counters become easy to access=
, although not specific, function counters.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">For example, an SR virtual interface&#39;s counters bec=
ome basic counters of the SR traffic that has been received and sent, acces=
sible via standard SNMP interface OIDs.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Early Cisco and Linux kernel IPsec implementations didn&#39=
;t use virtual interfaces to represent tunnels. They both moved to doing so=
 fairly quickly for the same sorts of reasons.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
<br>
If NETPGM deviates from RFC 4291 I think that needs to be strongly justifie=
d. Not deviating from existing standards should be the default :)</blockquo=
te></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A major benefi=
t of compliance with existing standards is you get to take advantage of exi=
sting implementations, models, knowledge and experience. A lot of things co=
me for free because they already exist.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Sander<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--00000000000025443305a0fdc2bf--


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From nobody Tue Mar 17 10:32:58 2020
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Hi,

> =EF=BB=BFHi Sander, such things as =E2=80=98pseudo interfaces=E2=80=99 are=
 local behavior, they're implementation specific.

Then suggest another way to comply with RFC 4291.

Cheers,
Sander



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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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From nobody Tue Mar 17 10:50:43 2020
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
References: <D5A410FF-EEA3-4F01-8147-5E180EE35DE6@chopps.org> <A6B1D2E0-0230-468B-931F-C6C976BDC9DC@cisco.com> <8ef9a49b-0edf-2040-86d6-7c68381352c6@joelhalpern.com> <C060BCFF-49E9-43DE-A816-35509B47033D@cisco.com> <9e2ea3c8-67c4-2442-4ce8-d42cc89a3a0d@joelhalpern.com> <305A5FB1-345F-4207-89BA-9C7F63452F16@cisco.com>
From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Given that the requirement to be able to ignore the routing header 
predates any of the SRv6 work, a natural reading would be that ignoring 
the header is something the device can already do.  In normal 
situations, the savings for not doing a check that simple is very small.

Having been told the cost was high, with no further explanation, I am 
forced to assume the historical (unfortunate) behavior that made the 
cost high.  If that explanation is correct, then it has other 
implications.  If that is NOT the reason that the cost is high, please 
state what the reason is for it having a high cost.  We are asking 
devices to support a special feature (PSP) to achieve the savings.  We 
owe it to folks to explain why we are asking for such a thing.  (And no, 
the fact that PSP is optional does not change things.  If PSP matters, 
then it matters.  If it doesn't matter, then lets drop it.)

Yours,
Joel

On 3/17/2020 1:43 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Inline
> 
> ﻿-----Original Message-----
> From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> Date: Monday, 16 March 2020 at 20:23
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
> 
>      The changes in section 4.16.1 do improve the clarity.
>      
>      Having said that, the text about motivating PSP reads:
>           PSP allows, for example, for an egress PE to receive a packet
>           with a segment in the DA of the outer header without any need to
>           process the	SRH.
>      is a very weak and confusing explanation.  Given that 8200 requires
>      nodes to be able to ignore any routing header with SL=0, the text as
>      written seems to be without benefit.
> 
> Joel, how do you know whether you can ignore a routing header?
> I believe that the only option is for the router to process the routing header to check whether the Segments Left value is equal to zero.
> PSP avoids any routing header processing at the egress PE, as the quoted text above states. Hence the benefit.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pablo.
> 
>      Yes, I have seen descriptions of
>      the benefits from others on the list.  But this text is not it.
>      
>      If indeed the benefit is a node where any extension header presence
>      causes much slower processing (as was alluded to by other posters on the
>      list) then it seems that should be acknowledged in the description.
>      Doing something slowly is indeed still compliant to 8200.
>      I have asked that we go a step further, and acknowledge that such nodes
>      have other limitations and that if we are going to make allowance for
>      them, we should call out those other issues as well.
>      
>      Yours,
>      Joel
>      
>      On 3/16/2020 2:55 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>      > Hi Joel,
>      >
>      > Please check revision 13 of this document that clarifies the PSP section.
>      >
>      > About your last point:
>      > For both SR-MPLS and SRv6, there are restrictions on the path to be used, in particular:
>      > - the SR policy may only use SIDs instantiated on SR Endpoints.
>      > - When computing the SR policy, there are additional restrictions to consider, such as the Maximum SID Depth (MSD) capability of nodes in the topology. (for SRv6, see section 4 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions).
>      >
>      > Regards,
>      > Pablo.
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>      > Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 19:26
>      > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>      > Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>      > Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>      >
>      >      Pablo, in your reply below you say that the text in 8200 is "crystal
>      >      clear".  It requires an interesting lens to find something "crystal
>      >      clear" about which so many people have expressed so much disagreement.
>      >      While a lawyer may claim to a judge that text in a contract is crystal
>      >      clear, it is almost always hyperbole.  That may be useful in other
>      >      contexts.  It is not useful here.
>      >
>      >      As far as I can tell, the text allows the interpretation that the PSP
>      >      protagonists have reached.  It also allows other interpretations.  In
>      >      the absence of clarity, I can not claim that PSP biolates 8200.  But it
>      >      sure as heck is not "crystal clear".
>      >
>      >      I also find the articulated use cases for PSP muddy.  And as far as I
>      >      can tell, if the use cases are accurate, then there is a need for
>      >      greater clarity in the underlying drafts (NP because I do not want to
>      >      try call back the base SRH document) about the restrictions on paths
>      >      that can be used.
>      >
>      >      Yours,
>      >      Joel
>      >
>      >      On 3/10/2020 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>      >      > Hi Chris,
>      >      >
>      >      > Thanks for going through the document.
>      >      > The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>      >      >
>      >      > As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the BSID.
>      >      > Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for transmission.
>      >      >
>      >      > Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
>      >      > That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>      >      >
>      >      > Hope it clarifies.
>      >      >
>      >      > Thanks,
>      >      > Pablo.
>      >      >
>      >      > [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > -----Original Message-----
>      >      > From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>      >      > Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>      >      > To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>      >      > Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>      >      > Subject: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>      >      >
>      >      >      In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>      >      >
>      >      >      "
>      >      >         When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.BM
>      >      >         SID, does:
>      >      >
>      >      >        S01. When an SRH is processed {
>      >      >        S02.   If (Segments Left == 0) {
>      >      >      ....
>      >      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      >      >        S04.   }
>      >      >        S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <= 1) {
>      >      >      ....
>      >      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      >      >        S07.   }
>      >      >        S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {
>      >      >      ....
>      >      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>      >      >        S11.   }
>      >      >      ....
>      >      >        S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to the
>      >      >                  topmost label.
>      >      >        S16. }
>      >      >      "
>      >      >
>      >      >      The text then says:
>      >      >
>      >      >         When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a FIB
>      >      >         entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the packet
>      >      >         as per Section 4.1.1.
>      >      >
>      >      >      Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this point?
>      >      >
>      >      >      Thanks,
>      >      >      Chris.
>      >      >      _______________________________________________
>      >      >      spring mailing list
>      >      >      spring@ietf.org
>      >      >      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > _______________________________________________
>      >      > spring mailing list
>      >      > spring@ietf.org
>      >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>      >      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      
> 


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Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
References: <D5A410FF-EEA3-4F01-8147-5E180EE35DE6@chopps.org> <A6B1D2E0-0230-468B-931F-C6C976BDC9DC@cisco.com> <8ef9a49b-0edf-2040-86d6-7c68381352c6@joelhalpern.com> <C060BCFF-49E9-43DE-A816-35509B47033D@cisco.com> <9e2ea3c8-67c4-2442-4ce8-d42cc89a3a0d@joelhalpern.com> <305A5FB1-345F-4207-89BA-9C7F63452F16@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Hi,

>>    Having said that, the text about motivating PSP reads:
>>         PSP allows, for example, for an egress PE to receive a packet
>>         with a segment in the DA of the outer header without any need =
to
>>         process the	SRH.
>>    is a very weak and confusing explanation.  Given that 8200 =
requires
>>    nodes to be able to ignore any routing header with SL=3D0, the =
text as
>>    written seems to be without benefit.
>=20
> Joel, how do you know whether you can ignore a routing header?
> I believe that the only option is for the router to process the =
routing header to check whether the Segments Left value is equal to =
zero.
> PSP avoids any routing header processing at the egress PE, as the =
quoted text above states. Hence the benefit.

What benefit?
Sander

PS:

Just because PSP removed a routing header doesn't mean the egress PE =
doesn't have to look for any remaining routing headers.

=46rom 8200: "Each extension header should occur at most once=E2=80=A6".
That is a should, not a must

And: "IPv6 nodes must accept and attempt to process extension headers in =
any order and occurring any number of times in the same packet=E2=80=A6"
That is a must, not a should.

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In-Reply-To: <5A7ED9E6-31ED-4A9D-9DEF-5927F3313F32@cisco.com>
From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:10:18 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2zFfp_RJhw1a8etcT8YUXDUJ=wdW3qrGjcz8Q6+DHOnNA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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On Wed, 18 Mar 2020, 03:39 Darren Dukes (ddukes), <ddukes=3D
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hi Sander, such things as =E2=80=98pseudo interfaces=E2=80=99 are local b=
ehavior, they're
> implementation specific.
>

Given the protocol lawyering SPRING have been playing with RFC 8200, that's
never going through to fly when RFC 4291 says:

IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes


Regards,
Mark.




> Darren
>
> > On Mar 16, 2020, at 1:39 PM, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote=
:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >> How this relates to NETPGM
> >> - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.
> >> - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.
> >
> > This will need some work, because according to
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1: "IPv6 addresses of all
> types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.". I think at least defining =
a
> pseudo-interface (like a loopback) is required to comply with RFC 4291.
> >
> > Speaking as an operator: this would also make SRv6 SIDs easier to
> understand conceptually. It would also make it easier to debug because th=
e
> SID would be a "normal" IPv6 address on an interface, not something that
> isn't visible in the RIB/FIB but is still handled in the local router.
> Having a RIB/FIB entry and an interface (if only a pseudo one) would make
> existing debugging practices easier to apply.
> >
> > If NETPGM deviates from RFC 4291 I think that needs to be strongly
> justified. Not deviating from existing standards should be the default :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Sander
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 18 Mar 2020, 03:39 Darren Dukes (ddukes), &lt;=
ddukes=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Sander, such things as =E2=80=98pseudo interface=
s=E2=80=99 are local behavior, they&#39;re implementation specific.<br></bl=
ockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Given th=
e protocol lawyering SPRING have been playing with RFC 8200, that&#39;s nev=
er going through to fly when RFC 4291 says:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px">IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not no=
des</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Darren<br>
<br>
&gt; On Mar 16, 2020, at 1:39 PM, Sander Steffann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:san=
der@steffann.nl" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">sander@ste=
ffann.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; How this relates to NETPGM<br>
&gt;&gt; - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.<br>
&gt;&gt; - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This will need some work, because according to <a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.1</a>: &=
quot;IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.&quo=
t;. I think at least defining a pseudo-interface (like a loopback) is requi=
red to comply with RFC 4291.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Speaking as an operator: this would also make SRv6 SIDs easier to unde=
rstand conceptually. It would also make it easier to debug because the SID =
would be a &quot;normal&quot; IPv6 address on an interface, not something t=
hat isn&#39;t visible in the RIB/FIB but is still handled in the local rout=
er. Having a RIB/FIB entry and an interface (if only a pseudo one) would ma=
ke existing debugging practices easier to apply.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If NETPGM deviates from RFC 4291 I think that needs to be strongly jus=
tified. Not deviating from existing standards should be the default :)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Sander<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
CC: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "SPRING WG List" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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Hi Joel.

I believe we agree that RFC8754 does describe a segment as having two parts=
, and NETPGM calls those parts LOC and FUNC.

So you asked specifically about FUNC:ARG.
RFC8754 4.3.1 says:
   When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
   longest-prefix-match lookup on the packet's destination address.
   This lookup can return any of the following:

   *  A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID
   ...

I believe we agree, a "longest-prefix-match=94 (LPM) may be less than 128bi=
t long.
An LPM of less than 128 bits corresponds to a SRv6 SID of the format LOC:FU=
NC, followed by some number of bits.
NETPGM has given those bits a name: ARG

Thanks
Darren

On Mar 16, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

Darren, I had assumed that 8754 did indeed define things the way you use th=
em.  However, I can not find the assertions you make.

The short text in section 3.3 of RFC 6754 does not seem to create a distinc=
tion between segment or local interface.  For that to be the justification =
for SIDs do not have to interfaces is putting a lot of weight, and a signif=
icant change in the IP address architecture, on two words in an informative=
 paragraph.
Further, section 4.3 draws a distinction between processing a SID and proce=
ssing a packet addressed to an interface and that "is not locally instantia=
ted as an SRv6 SID"  That does not create the distinction you are arguing f=
or.

Nothing in either document lays any groundwork I can see for LOC:FUNC:ARG. =
 On the one hand, 8402 applies to MPLS, which does not use any such distinc=
tion.  And when I search those documents, )maybe I missed something) I did =
not find any references to 'arg" or "loc" that seemed relevant.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/16/2020 12:45 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
The following are some observations on SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing as the=
y pertain to draft-ietf-spring-network-programming (NETPGM)
SRv6 RFCs tell us the following as it relates to SRv6 SIDs, IPv6 addresses =
and how SIDs are identified and assigned:
- RFC8402 tells us an SRv6 SID is an IPv6 address.
- RFC8754 section 1 defines SRv6 and its instantiation in the IPv6 dataplan=
e, along with SID terminology
- RFC8754 section 2 defines Segment List as a list of IPv6 addresses
- RFC8754 section 3.3 defines an SR segment endpoint node, making the disti=
nction between "segment or local interface."
- RFC8754 section 4.3 describes processing at segment endpoint node for eit=
her; a fib entry representing a locally instantiated SRv6 SID, or a local i=
nterface not instantiated as a SRv6 SID.
- RFC8754 section 5 describes the Intra-SR-Domain deployment model, where:
 - within the SR domain "Allocate all the SIDs from a block S/s"
 - within the SR domain =93Assign all interface addresses from prefix A/a"
 - At node k [within the SR domain], all SIDs local to k are assigned from =
prefix Sk/sk
How this relates to NETPGM
- SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.
- SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.
- SRv6 SIDs are allocated from S/s within the SR domain (NETPGM formalizes =
this as B)
- SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at node k in prefix Sk/sk (NETPGM form=
alizes this as LOC, or B:N for node N)
- SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at a node using the remaining bits of =
Sk/sk (NETPGM formalizes this as FUNC:ARG)
NETPGM and the representation of a SID as LOC:FUNC:ARG are expected by RFC8=
402 and RFC8754 and inline with both.
NETPGM formalizes the concepts previously described, and required within th=
e SR domain.
Darren
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Hi Joel.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>I believe we agree that RFC8754 does describe a segment as having two =
parts, and NETPGM calls those parts LOC and FUNC. &nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>So you asked specifically about FUNC:ARG.</div>
<div>RFC8754 4.3.1 says:</div>
<div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it per=
forms a</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;longest-prefix-match lookup on the packet's destination a=
ddress.</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;This lookup can return any of the following:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp;A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiate=
d SRv6 SID</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
I believe we agree, a &quot;longest-prefix-match=94 (LPM) may be less than =
128bit long.</div>
<div>An LPM of less than 128 bits corresponds to a SRv6 SID of the format L=
OC:FUNC, followed by some number of bits.</div>
<div>NETPGM has given those bits a name: ARG</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks</div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size: 1rem;">Darren</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"AppleOriginalContents" style=3D"direction:ltr">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Mar 16, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Joel M. Halpern &lt;jmh@joelhalpern.com&g=
t; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>Darren, I had assumed that 8754 did indeed define things the way you u=
se them. &nbsp;However, I can not find the assertions you make.<br class=3D=
"">
<br class=3D"">
The short text in section 3.3 of RFC 6754 does not seem to create a distinc=
tion between segment or local interface. &nbsp;For that to be the justifica=
tion for SIDs do not have to interfaces is putting a lot of weight, and a s=
ignificant change in the IP address architecture,
 on two words in an informative paragraph.<br class=3D"">
Further, section 4.3 draws a distinction between processing a SID and proce=
ssing a packet addressed to an interface and that &quot;is not locally inst=
antiated as an SRv6 SID&quot; &nbsp;That does not create the distinction yo=
u are arguing for.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Nothing in either document lays any groundwork I can see for LOC:FUNC:ARG. =
&nbsp;On the one hand, 8402 applies to MPLS, which does not use any such di=
stinction. &nbsp;And when I search those documents, )maybe I missed somethi=
ng) I did not find any references to 'arg&quot;
 or &quot;loc&quot; that seemed relevant.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Yours,<br class=3D"">
Joel<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On 3/16/2020 12:45 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The following are some observations on=
 SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing as they pertain to draft-ietf-spring-network=
-programming (NETPGM)<br class=3D"">
SRv6 RFCs tell us the following as it relates to SRv6 SIDs, IPv6 addresses =
and how SIDs are identified and assigned:<br class=3D"">
- RFC8402 tells us an SRv6 SID is an IPv6 address.<br class=3D"">
- RFC8754 section 1 defines SRv6 and its instantiation in the IPv6 dataplan=
e, along with SID terminology<br class=3D"">
- RFC8754 section 2 defines Segment List as a list of IPv6 addresses<br cla=
ss=3D"">
- RFC8754 section 3.3 defines an SR segment endpoint node, making the disti=
nction between &quot;segment or local interface.&quot;<br class=3D"">
- RFC8754 section 4.3 describes processing at segment endpoint node for eit=
her; a fib entry representing a locally instantiated SRv6 SID, or a local i=
nterface not instantiated as a SRv6 SID.<br class=3D"">
- RFC8754 section 5 describes the Intra-SR-Domain deployment model, where:<=
br class=3D"">
&nbsp;- within the SR domain &quot;Allocate all the SIDs from a block S/s&q=
uot;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;- within the SR domain =93Assign all interface addresses from prefix =
A/a&quot;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;- At node k [within the SR domain], all SIDs local to k are assigned =
from prefix Sk/sk<br class=3D"">
How this relates to NETPGM<br class=3D"">
- SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.<br class=3D"">
- SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.<br class=3D"">
- SRv6 SIDs are allocated from S/s within the SR domain (NETPGM formalizes =
this as B)<br class=3D"">
- SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at node k in prefix Sk/sk (NETPGM form=
alizes this as LOC, or B:N for node N)<br class=3D"">
- SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at a node using the remaining bits of =
Sk/sk (NETPGM formalizes this as FUNC:ARG)<br class=3D"">
NETPGM and the representation of a SID as LOC:FUNC:ARG are expected by RFC8=
402 and RFC8754 and inline with both.<br class=3D"">
NETPGM formalizes the concepts previously described, and required within th=
e SR domain.<br class=3D"">
Darren<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
spring mailing list<br class=3D"">
spring@ietf.org<br class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
spring mailing list<br class=3D"">
spring@ietf.org<br class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D28F791FBAF0470F8FB0554DBA8E7C3Bciscocom_--


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Subject: Re: [spring] SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing
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In no other IETF context I can think of does an LP  match magically 
allow one to assign meaning to some of the other bit.

Look, if you want to claim that NP updates the definitions in the 
various other places to have this constructiion, I can't stop you.  I 
probably can't even stop such a description from becoming an RFC.  But I 
can and will object to a claim that the RFC we approved says that 
already.  It doesn't.

Frankly, we have plenty of proof (from the fact that we can do all these 
things with MPLS) that we do not need separate bits for these effects. 
You folks want it more explicitly encoded, in a separable fashion.  You 
can even argue that doing such simplifies operations and management. 
But don't pretend that such assignment of semantics to bits in addresses 
is what we allowed when we approved the RFC.  (I actually thought we had 
approved such, even though I dislike it.  But looking at the words that 
were approved, they simply do not say that.)

Yours,
Joel

On 3/17/2020 6:47 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> Hi Joel.
> 
> I believe we agree that RFC8754 does describe a segment as having two 
> parts, and NETPGM calls those parts LOC and FUNC.
> 
> So you asked specifically about FUNC:ARG.
> RFC8754 4.3.1 says:
>   When an SRv6-capable node receives an IPv6 packet, it performs a
>   longest-prefix-match lookup on the packet's destination address.
>   This lookup can return any of the following:
> 
>   * A FIB entry that represents a locally instantiated SRv6 SID
>   ...
> 
> I believe we agree, a "longest-prefix-match (LPM) may be less than 
> 128bit long.
> An LPM of less than 128 bits corresponds to a SRv6 SID of the format 
> LOC:FUNC, followed by some number of bits.
> NETPGM has given those bits a name: ARG
> 
> Thanks
> Darren
> 
>> On Mar 16, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>>
>> Darren, I had assumed that 8754 did indeed define things the way you 
>> use them. However, I can not find the assertions you make.
>>
>> The short text in section 3.3 of RFC 6754 does not seem to create a 
>> distinction between segment or local interface. For that to be the 
>> justification for SIDs do not have to interfaces is putting a lot of 
>> weight, and a significant change in the IP address architecture, on 
>> two words in an informative paragraph.
>> Further, section 4.3 draws a distinction between processing a SID and 
>> processing a packet addressed to an interface and that "is not locally 
>> instantiated as an SRv6 SID" That does not create the distinction you 
>> are arguing for.
>>
>> Nothing in either document lays any groundwork I can see for 
>> LOC:FUNC:ARG. On the one hand, 8402 applies to MPLS, which does not 
>> use any such distinction. And when I search those documents, )maybe I 
>> missed something) I did not find any references to 'arg" or "loc" that 
>> seemed relevant.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 3/16/2020 12:45 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
>>> The following are some observations on SRv6 SIDs and IPv6 addressing 
>>> as they pertain to draft-ietf-spring-network-programming (NETPGM)
>>> SRv6 RFCs tell us the following as it relates to SRv6 SIDs, IPv6 
>>> addresses and how SIDs are identified and assigned:
>>> - RFC8402 tells us an SRv6 SID is an IPv6 address.
>>> - RFC8754 section 1 defines SRv6 and its instantiation in the IPv6 
>>> dataplane, along with SID terminology
>>> - RFC8754 section 2 defines Segment List as a list of IPv6 addresses
>>> - RFC8754 section 3.3 defines an SR segment endpoint node, making the 
>>> distinction between "segment or local interface."
>>> - RFC8754 section 4.3 describes processing at segment endpoint node 
>>> for either; a fib entry representing a locally instantiated SRv6 SID, 
>>> or a local interface not instantiated as a SRv6 SID.
>>> - RFC8754 section 5 describes the Intra-SR-Domain deployment model, 
>>> where:
>>> - within the SR domain "Allocate all the SIDs from a block S/s"
>>> - within the SR domain Assign all interface addresses from prefix A/a"
>>> - At node k [within the SR domain], all SIDs local to k are assigned 
>>> from prefix Sk/sk
>>> How this relates to NETPGM
>>> - SRv6 SIDs are IPv6 addresses.
>>> - SRv6 SIDs are not necessarily interface addresses.
>>> - SRv6 SIDs are allocated from S/s within the SR domain (NETPGM 
>>> formalizes this as B)
>>> - SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at node k in prefix Sk/sk 
>>> (NETPGM formalizes this as LOC, or B:N for node N)
>>> - SRv6 SIDs are locally instantiated at a node using the remaining 
>>> bits of Sk/sk (NETPGM formalizes this as FUNC:ARG)
>>> NETPGM and the representation of a SID as LOC:FUNC:ARG are expected 
>>> by RFC8402 and RFC8754 and inline with both.
>>> NETPGM formalizes the concepts previously described, and required 
>>> within the SR domain.
>>> Darren
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


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Subject: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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--0000000000006def8105a1537d80
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Daniel & Authors

I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/

In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replication to
leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller based
model using BGP LS.

I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 using
ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is working
very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.

I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am using SR-MP=
LS forwarding
plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label switched trees
for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap
tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for
multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast.

I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP or
P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  Not sure
why?

Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to use the
ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.

I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding level SR-M=
PLS data
plane is being used instead of mLDP.

I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and static
ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.

I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose path
using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree
instantiation via SR-TE.

Is that possible?

Kind regards

Gyan


--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--0000000000006def8105a1537d80
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<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Daniel &amp; Authors=C2=A0</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I had a question related t=
o the draft related to lab POC testing.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></d=
iv><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-r=
eplication-segment/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr=
-replication-segment/</a></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">In the draft it =
states that SR replication using Tree SID to replication to leafs on a tree=
 is only supported with a centralized PCE controller based model using BGP =
LS.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have an SR-M=
PLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 using ISIS SR extensi=
ons where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is working very well from a =
unicast perspective.=C2=A0 No issues.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D =
am using SR-MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 I kept LDP enabled so I can use mL=
DP for LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVP=
N procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using =
mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast=
.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I can get the LM=
DT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP or P2MP tree but canno=
t get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.=C2=A0 Not sure why?</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Any ideas.=C2=A0 Is there anythi=
ng special I have to do for multicast to use the ldp mLDP extension data pl=
ane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwardin=
g level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place=
 with candidate dynamic and static ERO paths and that works well coloring t=
he VRF steering.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I was w=
ondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose path using pr=
efix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree instantiation via=
 SR-TE.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is that possible=
?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind regards=C2=A0</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0</div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia=
, serif"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=
=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font=
 size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &=
amp; Technology=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" col=
or=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silve=
r Spring, MD 20904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">E=
mail: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s=
.mishra@verizon.com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div=
><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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A follow up related question is let=E2=80=99s say you have a 100% migrated =
to
SR-MPLS and so any mLDP related PSMI UI/MI/S trees are not possible but you
can still I guess use IR or RSVP-TE.

You don=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and don=E2=80=99t want to use IR due =
to processing
replication overhead.

But if Tree SID instantiation only works with controller based model and
you have a distributed model deployment what options do you have and is
their any way you can use Tree SID instantiation using SR-TE with binding
SID.

Kind regards

Gyan

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:40 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Daniel & Authors
>
> I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segmen=
t/
>
> In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replication
> to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller
> based model using BGP LS.
>
> I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 using
> ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is working
> very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
>
> I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am using SR-=
MPLS forwarding
> plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label switched tree=
s
> for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 enca=
p
> tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for
> multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast.
>
> I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP or
> P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  Not su=
re
> why?
>
> Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to use
> the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
>
> I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding level SR=
-MPLS
> data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
>
> I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and
> static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
>
> I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose path
> using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree
> instantiation via SR-TE.
>
> Is that possible?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Gyan
>
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
> --

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--0000000000000e9c2805a15397fb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div><div dir=3D"auto">A follow up related question is let=
=E2=80=99s say you have a 100% migrated to SR-MPLS and so any mLDP related =
PSMI UI/MI/S trees are not possible but you can still I guess use IR or RSV=
P-TE.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You don=E2=80=99t =
want to use RSVP-TE and don=E2=80=99t want to use IR due to processing repl=
ication overhead.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But if=
 Tree SID instantiation only works with controller based model and you have=
 a distributed model deployment what options do you have and is their any w=
ay you can use Tree SID instantiation using SR-TE with binding SID.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind regards=C2=A0</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:40 PM =
Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com">hayabusagsm@gmail.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Daniel &amp; Authors=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I had a question related to the draft rela=
ted to lab POC testing.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segm=
ent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring=
-sr-replication-segment/</a></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">In the draft =
it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replication to leafs on a t=
ree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller based model using B=
GP LS.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have an S=
R-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 using ISIS SR exte=
nsions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is working very well from=
 a unicast perspective.=C2=A0 No issues.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=
=9D am using SR-MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 I kept LDP enabled so I can us=
e mLDP for LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all=
 MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree us=
ing mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for uni=
cast.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I can get th=
e LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP or P2MP tree but c=
annot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.=C2=A0 Not sure why?</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Any ideas.=C2=A0 Is there an=
ything special I have to do for multicast to use the ldp mLDP extension dat=
a plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwa=
rding level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in p=
lace with candidate dynamic and static ERO paths and that works well colori=
ng the VRF steering.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I w=
as wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose path usin=
g prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree instantiation=
 via SR-TE.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is that poss=
ible?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind regards=C2=A0=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0</div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" data-s=
martmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"=
1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 M=
ishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#00=
0000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</f=
ont></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"g=
eorgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D=
"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"geor=
gia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=
=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:g=
yan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></=
font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font si=
ze=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=
=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=
=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" =
face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fon=
t size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20=
904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D=
"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.=
com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000000e9c2805a15397fb--


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From: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:48:49 -0700
Message-ID: <CABjMoXaVTmtwhEWmDNDPTNtn6B1kvU5DxqJL8xAD8bCgth7P4w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Voyer, Daniel" <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Gyan,
These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com.

-Rishabh

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Daniel & Authors
>
> I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segmen=
t/
>
> In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replication =
to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller base=
d model using BGP LS.
>
> I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 using=
 ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is working v=
ery well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
>
> I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am using SR-=
MPLS forwarding plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label=
 switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC =
6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding p=
lane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast..
>
> I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP or P=
2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  Not sure =
why?
>
> Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to use t=
he ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
>
> I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding level SR=
-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
>
> I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and stat=
ic ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
>
> I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose path=
 using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree instanti=
ation via SR-TE.
>
> Is that possible?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Gyan
>
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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From: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:59:23 -0700
Message-ID: <CABjMoXb2fsLTWS4qxKecso3fc2K7rNMzzAXaT=+3JTtXBTmmUw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>
Cc: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>,  "draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment@ietf.org" <draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring]  =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBJUFIgUG9sbDogZHJhZnQtdm95ZXItc3By?= =?utf-8?q?ing-sr-replication-segment?=
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Chairs,
IPR Poll finished about 3 months ago. When can we expect WG adoption
poll for this draft?

Thanks,
-Rishabh

On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 5:40 PM Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
<pengshuping@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Chairs, all,
>
>
>
> We have received IPR confirmations from all authors and contributors of t=
his draft.
>
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Shuping
>
>
>
>
>
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=
=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 bruno.decraene@orange.com
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5=
 1:04
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment@ie=
tf.org
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: spring <spring@ietf.org>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [spring] IPR Poll: draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-=
segment
>
>
>
> Hi Authors, SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Authors of draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment [1] have asked for W=
G adoption.
>
> Before the call for working group adoption we would like to poll for IPR.
>
>
>
> If you are aware of IPR that applies to draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication=
-segment please respond to this email.
>
> If you are aware of IPR, please indicate whether it has been disclosed in
>
> accordance to the IETF IPR rules (detailed are described in RFCs 3979, 48=
79, 3669 and 5378).
>
>
>
> If you are an *author or contributor* please respond to this email, on th=
e SPRING mailing list,
>
> regardless of whether or not you're aware of any IPR. If you are not an
>
> author or contributor, please explicitly respond only if you're aware of
>
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed.
>
>
>
> This document will not advance into the working group until such time as
>
> we have received IPR confirmations from all authors and contributors.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Rob & Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment=
-00
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
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>
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:11:03 -0400
Message-ID: <CABNhwV3FGVUT4Fn6UR8Db7nGa1aQEOm+Mt6kTEBLr3ixNmhHrQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Voyer, Daniel" <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Thank you Rishabh!

I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.

The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendor
specific however I am using Cisco as an example.

>From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that this
thread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you are
migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.

In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP TE
or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model what
options are available for multicast support.

The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used
for PCE centralized controller model.

I am guessing BIER maybe an option?

Any other options for operators?

Kind regards

Gyan

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gyan,
> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com.
>
> -Rishabh
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> >
> >
> > Daniel & Authors
> >
> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
> >
> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segmen=
t/
> >
> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replicatio=
n
> to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller
> based model using BGP LS.
> >
> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1
> using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is
> working very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
> >
> > I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am using S=
R-MPLS forwarding
> plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label switched tree=
s
> for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 enca=
p
> tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for
> multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast..
> >
> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP or
> P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  Not su=
re
> why?
> >
> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to use
> the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
> >
> > I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding level =
SR-MPLS
> data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
> >
> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and
> static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
> >
> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose
> path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree
> instantiation via SR-TE.
> >
> > Is that possible?
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Gyan
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Gyan  Mishra
> >
> > Network Engineering & Technology
> >
> > Verizon
> >
> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
> >
> > Phone: 301 502-1347
> >
> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > spring mailing list
> > spring@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--000000000000db159705a1615356
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thank you Rishabh!</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I will contact you regarding Cisco specific que=
stions.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The questions ap=
ply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendor specific however I=
 am using Cisco as an example.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that t=
his thread is related is with multicast =C2=A0SR-MPLS support use case wher=
e you are migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core. =
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">In this customer =
use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP TE or IR due to repli=
cation processing overhead in a distributed model what options are availabl=
e for multicast support.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used =
for PCE centralized controller model.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">I am guessing BIER maybe an option?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">Any other options for operators?</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind regards=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rish=
abh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Gyan,<br>
These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed<br>
off the mailing list. Please contact me at <a href=3D"mailto:riparekh@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">riparekh@cisco.com</a>.<br>
<br>
-Rishabh<br>
<br>
On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusag=
sm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Daniel &amp; Authors<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-repl=
ication-segment/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replicati=
on to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller b=
ased model using BGP LS.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 us=
ing ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is workin=
g very well from a unicast perspective.=C2=A0 No issues.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am using =
SR-MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LM=
DT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedu=
res RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forw=
arding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast..<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP o=
r P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.=C2=A0 N=
ot sure why?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any ideas.=C2=A0 Is there anything special I have to do for multicast =
to use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding level=
 SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and s=
tatic ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose p=
ath using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree insta=
ntiation via SR-TE.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is that possible?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
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From: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 12:22:03 -0700
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Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Gyan,

>The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used =
for PCE centralized controller model.
>I am guessing BIER maybe an option?

Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.

Any other options for operators?

LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.

-Rishabh

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Rishabh!
>
> I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.
>
> The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendor =
specific however I am using Cisco as an example.
>
> From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that this t=
hread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you are =
migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.
>
> In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP TE=
 or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model what o=
ptions are available for multicast support.
>
> The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used=
 for PCE centralized controller model.
>
> I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>
> Any other options for operators?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Gyan
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Gyan,
>> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
>> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com.
>>
>> -Rishabh
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>> >
>> >
>> > Daniel & Authors
>> >
>> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
>> >
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-seg=
ment/
>> >
>> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replicati=
on to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller b=
ased model using BGP LS.
>> >
>> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 us=
ing ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is workin=
g very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
>> >
>> > I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am using =
SR-MPLS forwarding plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT la=
bel switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures R=
FC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwardin=
g plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast..
>> >
>> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP o=
r P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  Not su=
re why?
>> >
>> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to us=
e the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
>> >
>> > I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding level=
 SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
>> >
>> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and s=
tatic ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
>> >
>> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose p=
ath using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree insta=
ntiation via SR-TE.
>> >
>> > Is that possible?
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > Gyan
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Gyan  Mishra
>> >
>> > Network Engineering & Technology
>> >
>> > Verizon
>> >
>> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
>> >
>> > Phone: 301 502-1347
>> >
>> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > spring mailing list
>> > spring@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>


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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 16:45:16 -0400
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On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gyan,
>
> >The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be use=
d
> for PCE centralized controller model.
> >I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>
> Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.


    So BIER technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT forwarding
table.  Understood.

For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and
you don=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and SR
replication tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is
utilized what alternatives or options does the operators have?

Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hybrid model and BGP
prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS propagation would
that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP LMDTs?

>
>
> Any other options for operators?
>
> LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.
>

So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have
SR-PREFER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS
forwarding plane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane
this draft and what you are saying for that to work is you have to
configure a knob to disable FEC root prefix lsp.  Not sure how that would
work as that mldp fec binding for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S
MVPN instantiation of the tree how would that even work.

There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is key for any
mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.



6.4 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-6.4>.  Disabling
Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session

   Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP
   state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange
   bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is
   unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.

   Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its
   disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session
   establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities
   update.

   In reference to Section 3.1
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-3.1>, the peer disables
the advertisement of
   any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP
   address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.




>
> -Rishabh
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Thank you Rishabh!
> >
> > I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.
> >
> > The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendo=
r
> specific however I am using Cisco as an example.
> >
> > From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that this
> thread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you a=
re
> migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.
> >
> > In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP
> TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wh=
at
> options are available for multicast support.
> >
> > The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be
> used for PCE centralized controller model.
> >
> > I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
> >
> > Any other options for operators?
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Gyan
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gyan,
> >> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
> >> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com.
> >>
> >> -Rishabh
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Daniel & Authors
> >> >
> >> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
> >> >
> >> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segmen=
t/
> >> >
> >> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to
> replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE
> controller based model using BGP LS.
> >> >
> >> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1
> using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is
> working very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
> >> >
> >> > I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am usin=
g SR-MPLS
> forwarding plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label
> switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC
> 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding
> plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast..
> >> >
> >> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP
> or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  Not
> sure why?
> >> >
> >> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to
> use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
> >> >
> >> > I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding lev=
el
> SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
> >> >
> >> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and
> static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
> >> >
> >> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose
> path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree
> instantiation via SR-TE.
> >> >
> >> > Is that possible?
> >> >
> >> > Kind regards
> >> >
> >> > Gyan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Gyan  Mishra
> >> >
> >> > Network Engineering & Technology
> >> >
> >> > Verizon
> >> >
> >> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
> >> >
> >> > Phone: 301 502-1347
> >> >
> >> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > spring mailing list
> >> > spring@ietf.org
> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >
> > --
> >
> > Gyan  Mishra
> >
> > Network Engineering & Technology
> >
> > Verizon
> >
> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
> >
> > Phone: 301 502-1347
> >
> > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
> >
> >
> >
>
--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--00000000000033138205a177991a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Gyan,<br>
<br>
&gt;The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be us=
ed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
<br>
Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.</bloc=
kquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So BIER =
technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT forwarding table.=C2=
=A0 Understood.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For the =
WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and you don=
=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and SR replica=
tion tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is utilized what =
alternatives or options does the operators have? =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Also if PCE is configured on SR source node=
 in a hybrid model and BGP prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP v=
ia BGP LS propagation would that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP an=
d MP2MP LMDTs?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Any other options for operators?<br>
<br>
LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.<br>
</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">So in t=
he case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have SR-PREFER con=
figured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS forwarding plane - s=
o then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane this draft and what you=
 are saying for that to work is you have to configure a knob to disable FEC=
 root prefix lsp.=C2=A0 Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec bindi=
ng for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation of the t=
ree how would that even work. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is =
key for any mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre class=3D"new=
page" style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:=
page"><span class=3D"h3" style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:=
bold"><br></span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size:1em;margin=
-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><span class=3D"h3" style=3D"d=
isplay:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h3 style=3D"display:inline;f=
ont-size:1em"><a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-6.4" href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-6.4" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration=
:none">6.4</a>.  Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session</h3></span>

   Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP
   state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange
   bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is
   unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.

   Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its
   disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session
   establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities
   update.

   In reference to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-3=
.1">Section 3.1</a>, the peer disables the advertisement of
   any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP
   address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.</p=
re><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bott=
om:0px;break-before:page"><br></pre></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
-Rishabh<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusa=
gsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you Rishabh!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vend=
or specific however I am using Cisco as an example.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that thi=
s thread is related is with multicast=C2=A0 SR-MPLS support use case where =
you are migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP=
 TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wha=
t options are available for multicast support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be u=
sed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any other options for operators?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gyan,<br>
&gt;&gt; These questions are implementation specific and should be addresse=
d<br>
&gt;&gt; off the mailing list. Please contact me at <a href=3D"mailto:ripar=
ekh@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">riparekh@cisco.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -Rishabh<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Daniel &amp; Authors<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC test=
ing.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-sprin=
g-sr-replication-segment/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to =
replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE con=
troller based model using BGP LS.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes=
 7.0.1 using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything =
is working very well from a unicast perspective.=C2=A0 No issues.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D =
am using SR-MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 I kept LDP enabled so I can use mL=
DP for LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVP=
N procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using =
mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast=
..<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build fo=
r MP2MP or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build=
.=C2=A0 Not sure why?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Any ideas.=C2=A0 Is there anything special I have to do for m=
ulticast to use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data =
plane.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forward=
ing level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dyna=
mic and static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ER=
O loose path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP t=
ree instantiation via SR-TE.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Is that possible?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr=
ing</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font si=
ze=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=
=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=
=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" =
face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fon=
t size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20=
904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D=
"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.=
com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000033138205a177991a--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
CC: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Voyer, Daniel" <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/sRj9cAXuVJLT7m_nvDxBBkvLX4Y>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-spring-p2mp-transport-chain-01

Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Gyan Mishra
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:45 PM
To: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Voyer, Daniel <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT



On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com<mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com>> wrote:
Gyan,

>The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used =
for PCE centralized controller model.
>I am guessing BIER maybe an option?

Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.

    So BIER technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT forwarding=
 table.  Understood.

For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and y=
ou don't want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and SR replicati=
on tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is utilized what al=
ternatives or options does the operators have?

Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hybrid model and BGP prefi=
x SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS propagation would that=
 be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP LMDTs?


Any other options for operators?

LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.

So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have SR-PRE=
FER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS forwarding pl=
ane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane this draft and w=
hat you are saying for that to work is you have to configure a knob to disa=
ble FEC root prefix lsp.  Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec bin=
ding for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation of the=
 tree how would that even work.

There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is key for any m=
LDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.





6.4<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-=
6.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiW=
EniowQKaRs$>.  Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session





   Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP

   state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange

   bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is

   unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.



   Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its

   disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session

   establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities

   update.



   In reference to Section 3.1<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.iet=
f.org/html/rfc7473*section-3..1__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz7=
6hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnivJQNlUY$>, the peer disables the advertiseme=
nt of

   any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP

   address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.




-Rishabh

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Rishabh!
>
> I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.
>
> The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendor =
specific however I am using Cisco as an example.
>
> From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that this t=
hread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you are =
migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.
>
> In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP TE=
 or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model what o=
ptions are available for multicast support.
>
> The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used=
 for PCE centralized controller model.
>
> I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>
> Any other options for operators?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Gyan
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com<mailto=
:rishabhp@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Gyan,
>> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
>> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com<mailto:rip=
arekh@cisco.com>.
>>
>> -Rishabh
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailt=
o:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Daniel & Authors
>> >
>> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
>> >
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-seg=
ment/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voy=
er-spring-sr-replication-segment/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz7=
6hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnihata2k0$>
>> >
>> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replicati=
on to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller b=
ased model using BGP LS.
>> >
>> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 us=
ing ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is workin=
g very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
>> >
>> > I have LDP still enabled but via "SR-Prefer" am using SR-MPLS forwardi=
ng plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label switched tre=
es for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 enc=
ap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for mult=
icast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast...
>> >
>> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP o=
r P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build..  Not s=
ure why?
>> >
>> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to us=
e the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
>> >
>> > I think what's happening is at the data plane forwarding level SR-MPLS=
 data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
>> >
>> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and s=
tatic ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
>> >
>> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose p=
ath using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree insta=
ntiation via SR-TE.
>> >
>> > Is that possible?
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > Gyan
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Gyan  Mishra
>> >
>> > Network Engineering & Technology
>> >
>> > Verizon
>> >
>> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
>> >
>> > Phone: 301 502-1347
>> >
>> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > spring mailing list
>> > spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_O=
i0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEniD2y-tsc$>
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
>
>
>
--
Gyan  Mishra
Network Engineering & Technology
Verizon
Silver Spring, MD 20904
Phone: 301 502-1347
Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-sp=
ring-p2mp-transport-chain-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-spring=
-p2mp-transport-chain-01</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf.org&gt; =
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Gyan Mishra<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rishabh Parekh &lt;rishabhp@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> SPRING WG &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;; Voyer, Daniel &lt;daniel.voye=
r@bell.ca&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gyan,<br>
<br>
&gt;The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be us=
ed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
<br>
Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; So BIER technically can be used with S=
R but has its own BIFT forwarding table.&nbsp; Understood.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is elimin=
ated from SP core and you don&#8217;t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not y=
et available and SR replication tree SID draft can only be used if a centra=
lized PCE is utilized what alternatives
 or options does the operators have? &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hyb=
rid model and BGP prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS=
 propagation would that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP L=
MDTs?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Any other options for operators?<br>
<br>
LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in t=
he core and have SR-PREFER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is usin=
g SR-MPLS forwarding plane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data=
 plane this draft and what you are
 saying for that to work is you have to configure a knob to disable FEC roo=
t prefix lsp.&nbsp; Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec binding f=
or mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation of the tree =
how would that even work. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is some XR knob I am missing to get this worki=
ng and is key for any mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></pre>
<h3><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc74=
73*section-6.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJm=
mQDOeIEnDiWEniowQKaRs$"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black;text-decoration:none">6.4</span></a><a name=3D=
"section-6.4"></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;">.&nbsp;
 Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session<o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; Assume that LSR1 and LSR=
2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; state only.&nbsp; In typ=
ical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; bindings for IP (unicast=
) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; unnecessary and wasteful=
 for an mLDP-only LSR.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; Using the procedures def=
ined earlier, an LSR can indicate its<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; disinterest in Prefix-LS=
P application state to its peer upon session<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; establishment time or dy=
namically later via an LDP capabilities<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; update.<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; In reference to <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-=
3..1__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDi=
WEnivJQNlUY$">Section 3.1</a>, the peer disables the advertisement of<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; any state related to IP =
Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; address bindings that ar=
e required for the correct operation of mLDP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-Rishabh<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusa=
gsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you Rishabh!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vend=
or specific however I am using Cisco as an example.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that thi=
s thread is related is with multicast&nbsp; SR-MPLS support use case where =
you are migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP=
 TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wha=
t options are available for multicast support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be u=
sed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any other options for operators?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gyan,<br>
&gt;&gt; These questions are implementation specific and should be addresse=
d<br>
&gt;&gt; off the mailing list. Please contact me at <a href=3D"mailto:ripar=
ekh@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">
riparekh@cisco.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -Rishabh<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Daniel &amp; Authors<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC test=
ing.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxB=
ymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnihata2k0$" target=3D"_blan=
k">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to =
replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE con=
troller based model using BGP LS.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes=
 7.0.1 using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything =
is working very well from a unicast perspective.&nbsp; No issues.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have LDP still enabled but via &#8220;SR-Prefer&#8221; am u=
sing SR-MPLS forwarding plane.&nbsp; I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP f=
or LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN pr=
ocedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for
 p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being us=
ed for unicast...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build fo=
r MP2MP or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build=
..&nbsp; Not sure why?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Any ideas.&nbsp; Is there anything special I have to do for m=
ulticast to use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data =
plane.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think what&#8217;s happening is at the data plane forwardin=
g level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dyna=
mic and static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ER=
O loose path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP t=
ree instantiation via SR-TE.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Is that possible?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan&nbsp; Mishra<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywe=
tIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEniD2y-tsc$" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan&nbsp; Mishra<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Gyan&nbsp; Mishra</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Network Engineering &amp; Technology&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Verizon&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Phone: 301 502-1347</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Email:
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:26:26 -0400
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>,  "Voyer, Daniel" <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Thanks John!!

Did a quick read and does appear the concept of P2MP tree =E2=80=9CP2MP LSM=
 like=E2=80=9D
instantiation optimization alternative to IR P2P replication which is
process intensive on the head end FEC root SR source node.  Appears it is
backwards compatible to IR if utilized.

Great!!

Thanks

Gyan

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 4:59 PM John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-spring-p2mp-transport-chain-01
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Gyan Mishra
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:45 PM
> *To:* Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Voyer, Daniel <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> Gyan,
>
> >The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be use=
d
> for PCE centralized controller model.
> >I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>
> Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.
>
>
>
>     So BIER technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT
> forwarding table.  Understood.
>
>
>
> For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and
> you don=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and S=
R
> replication tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is
> utilized what alternatives or options does the operators have?
>
>
>
> Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hybrid model and BGP
> prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS propagation wou=
ld
> that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP LMDTs?
>
>
>
> Any other options for operators?
>
> LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.
>
>
>
> So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have
> SR-PREFER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS
> forwarding plane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane
> this draft and what you are saying for that to work is you have to
> configure a knob to disable FEC root prefix lsp.  Not sure how that would
> work as that mldp fec binding for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/=
S
> MVPN instantiation of the tree how would that even work.
>
>
>
> There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is key for any
> mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6.4
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-6=
.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWE=
niowQKaRs$>.
> Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session
>
>
>
>
>
>    Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP
>
>    state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange
>
>    bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is
>
>    unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.
>
>
>
>    Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its
>
>    disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session
>
>    establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities
>
>    update.
>
>
>
>    In reference to Section 3.1 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.=
ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-3..1__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUS=
vz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnivJQNlUY$>, the peer disables the advertis=
ement of
>
>    any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP
>
>    address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Rishabh
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Thank you Rishabh!
> >
> > I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.
> >
> > The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendo=
r
> specific however I am using Cisco as an example.
> >
> > From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that this
> thread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you a=
re
> migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.
> >
> > In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP
> TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wh=
at
> options are available for multicast support.
> >
> > The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be
> used for PCE centralized controller model.
> >
> > I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
> >
> > Any other options for operators?
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Gyan
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gyan,
> >> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
> >> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com.
> >>
> >> -Rishabh
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Daniel & Authors
> >> >
> >> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
> >> >
> >> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segmen=
t/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-=
spring-sr-replication-segment/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hp=
DCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnihata2k0$>
> >> >
> >> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to
> replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE
> controller based model using BGP LS.
> >> >
> >> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1
> using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is
> working very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
> >> >
>
> >> > I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am usin=
g SR-MPLS
> forwarding plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label
> switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC
> 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding
> plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast...
> >> >
> >> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP
> or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build..  No=
t
> sure why?
>
>
> >> >
> >> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to
> use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
> >> >
> >> > I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding lev=
el
> SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
> >> >
> >> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and
> static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
> >> >
> >> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose
> path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree
> instantiation via SR-TE.
> >> >
> >> > Is that possible?
> >> >
> >> > Kind regards
> >> >
> >> > Gyan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Gyan  Mishra
> >> >
> >> > Network Engineering & Technology
> >> >
> >> > Verizon
> >> >
> >> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
> >> >
> >> > Phone: 301 502-1347
> >> >
> >> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > spring mailing list
> >> > spring@ietf.org
> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring_=
_;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEniD2y=
-tsc$>
> >
> > --
> >
> > Gyan  Mishra
> >
> > Network Engineering & Technology
> >
> > Verizon
> >
> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
> >
> > Phone: 301 502-1347
> >
> > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
>
>
--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks John!!</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Did a quick read and does appear the concept of=
 P2MP tree =E2=80=9CP2MP LSM like=E2=80=9D instantiation optimization alter=
native to IR P2P replication which is process intensive on the head end FEC=
 root SR source node.=C2=A0 Appears it is backwards compatible to IR if uti=
lized. =C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Great!!</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div><div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 2=
020 at 4:59 PM John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-sp=
ring-p2mp-transport-chain-01" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-shen-spring-p2mp-transport-chain-01</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:ce=
nter">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt"></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"=
><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0i=
n 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Beha=
lf Of
</b>Gyan Mishra<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> SPRING WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Voyer, Daniel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel.voye=
r@bell.ca" target=3D"_blank">daniel.voyer@bell.ca</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><=
div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt"><div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div></div></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gyan,<br>
<br>
&gt;The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be us=
ed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
<br>
Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So BIER technically can be used with S=
R but has its own BIFT forwarding table.=C2=A0 Understood.<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is elimin=
ated from SP core and you don=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not=
 yet available and SR replication tree SID draft can only be used if a cent=
ralized PCE is utilized what alternatives
 or options does the operators have? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hyb=
rid model and BGP prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS=
 propagation would that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP L=
MDTs?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Any other options for operators?<br>
<br>
LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in t=
he core and have SR-PREFER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is usin=
g SR-MPLS forwarding plane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data=
 plane this draft and what you are
 saying for that to work is you have to configure a knob to disable FEC roo=
t prefix lsp.=C2=A0 Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec binding f=
or mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation of the tree =
how would that even work. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is some XR knob I am missing to get this worki=
ng and is key for any mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<h3><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc74=
73*section-6.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJm=
mQDOeIEnDiWEniowQKaRs$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;text-decoration:none">6.4</s=
pan></a><a name=3D"m_-3852036804219126966_m_-5652495035891540870_section-6.=
4"></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"=
>.=C2=A0
 Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session<u></u><u></u></span></h3>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Assume that LSR1 and LSR=
2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 state only.=C2=A0 In typ=
ical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 bindings for IP (unicast=
) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 unnecessary and wasteful=
 for an mLDP-only LSR.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Using the procedures def=
ined earlier, an LSR can indicate its<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 disinterest in Prefix-LS=
P application state to its peer upon session<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 establishment time or dy=
namically later via an LDP capabilities<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 update.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 In reference to <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-=
3..1__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDi=
WEnivJQNlUY$" target=3D"_blank">Section 3.1</a>, the peer disables the adve=
rtisement of<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 any state related to IP =
Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 address bindings that ar=
e required for the correct operation of mLDP.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"pu=
rple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0=
in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:so=
lid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.=
0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:non=
e;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div><blockq=
uote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0=
in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-Rishabh<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusa=
gsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you Rishabh!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vend=
or specific however I am using Cisco as an example.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that thi=
s thread is related is with multicast=C2=A0 SR-MPLS support use case where =
you are migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP=
 TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wha=
t options are available for multicast support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be u=
sed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any other options for operators?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gyan,<br>
&gt;&gt; These questions are implementation specific and should be addresse=
d<br>
&gt;&gt; off the mailing list. Please contact me at <a href=3D"mailto:ripar=
ekh@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">
riparekh@cisco.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -Rishabh<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Daniel &amp; Authors<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC test=
ing.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxB=
ymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnihata2k0$" target=3D"_blan=
k">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to =
replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE con=
troller based model using BGP LS.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes=
 7.0.1 using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything =
is working very well from a unicast perspective.=C2=A0 No issues.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;bo=
rder-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6=
.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0p=
t"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D =
am using SR-MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 I kept LDP enabled so I can use mL=
DP for LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVP=
N procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for
 p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being us=
ed for unicast...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build fo=
r MP2MP or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build=
..=C2=A0 Not sure why?</p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div l=
ang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:none=
;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Any ideas.=C2=A0 Is there anything special I have to do for m=
ulticast to use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data =
plane.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forward=
ing level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dyna=
mic and static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ER=
O loose path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP t=
ree instantiation via SR-TE.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Is that possible?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywe=
tIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEniD2y-tsc$" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Geo=
rgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Geo=
rgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Geo=
rgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Verizon=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Geo=
rgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Geo=
rgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Phone: 301 502-1347</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Geo=
rgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Email:
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#=
000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mishra</font><=
/font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D=
"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</font></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif=
">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"=
#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">P=
hone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra=
@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div>

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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 19:19:44 -0400
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Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 4:45 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Gyan,
>>
>> >The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be
>> used for PCE centralized controller model.
>> >I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>>
>> Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.
>
>
>     So BIER technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT
> forwarding table.  Understood.
>
> For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and
> you don=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and S=
R
> replication tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is
> utilized what alternatives or options does the operators have?
>
> Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hybrid model and BGP
> prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS propagation wou=
ld
> that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP LMDTs?
>
>>
>>
>> Any other options for operators?
>>
>> LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.
>>
>
> So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have
> SR-PREFER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS
> forwarding plane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane
> this draft and what you are saying for that to work is you have to
> configure a knob to disable FEC root prefix lsp.  Not sure how that would
> work as that mldp fec binding for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/=
S
> MVPN instantiation of the tree how would that even work.
>
> There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is key for any
> mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.
>
>
>
> 6.4 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-6.4>.  Disabling Prefix-=
LSPs on an mLDP-only Session
>
>    Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP
>    state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange
>    bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is
>    unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.
>
>    Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its
>    disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session
>    establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities
>    update.
>
>    In reference to Section 3.1 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#secti=
on-3.1>, the peer disables the advertisement of
>    any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP
>    address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.
>
>
>   I found the RFC 7473 sac knob for SR for capability exchange for
> mldp-only and configured on PEs first still no change in MRIB state on
> egress PE
>


> then added knob to all Ps as well and still no change.  We can continue
> "off list". Thanks.
>

RP/0/RP0/CPU0:PE1-XRV9k#sh run mpls ldp
Sun Mar 22 23:12:24.127 UTC
mpls ldp
 !

*capabilities sac mldp-only *
>
> -Rishabh
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Thank you Rishabh!
>> >
>> > I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.
>> >
>> > The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not
>> vendor specific however I am using Cisco as an example.
>> >
>> > From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that thi=
s
>> thread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you =
are
>> migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.
>> >
>> > In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP
>> TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model w=
hat
>> options are available for multicast support.
>> >
>> > The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be
>> used for PCE centralized controller model.
>> >
>> > I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>> >
>> > Any other options for operators?
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > Gyan
>> >
>> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Gyan,
>> >> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
>> >> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com.
>> >>
>> >> -Rishabh
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Daniel & Authors
>> >> >
>> >> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segme=
nt/
>> >> >
>> >> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to
>> replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE
>> controller based model using BGP LS.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1
>> using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is
>> working very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D am usi=
ng SR-MPLS
>> forwarding plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label
>> switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RF=
C
>> 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwardin=
g
>> plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast..
>> >> >
>> >> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2M=
P
>> or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build.  No=
t
>> sure why?
>> >> >
>> >> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to
>> use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
>> >> >
>> >> > I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forwarding le=
vel
>> SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic an=
d
>> static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
>> >> >
>> >> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loos=
e
>> path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree
>> instantiation via SR-TE.
>> >> >
>> >> > Is that possible?
>> >> >
>> >> > Kind regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Gyan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > Gyan  Mishra
>> >> >
>> >> > Network Engineering & Technology
>> >> >
>> >> > Verizon
>> >> >
>> >> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
>> >> >
>> >> > Phone: 301 502-1347
>> >> >
>> >> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > spring mailing list
>> >> > spring@ietf.org
>> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Gyan  Mishra
>> >
>> > Network Engineering & Technology
>> >
>> > Verizon
>> >
>> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
>> >
>> > Phone: 301 502-1347
>> >
>> > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
>

--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--0000000000007ea17f05a179c345
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 4:45 PM Gyan =
Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:rishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Gyan,<br>
<br>
&gt;The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be us=
ed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
<br>
Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.</bloc=
kquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So BIER =
technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT forwarding table.=C2=
=A0 Understood.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For the =
WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and you don=
=E2=80=99t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and SR replica=
tion tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is utilized what =
alternatives or options does the operators have? =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Also if PCE is configured on SR source node=
 in a hybrid model and BGP prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP v=
ia BGP LS propagation would that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP an=
d MP2MP LMDTs?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Any other options for operators?<br>
<br>
LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.<br>
</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">So in t=
he case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have SR-PREFER con=
figured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS forwarding plane - s=
o then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane this draft and what you=
 are saying for that to work is you have to configure a knob to disable FEC=
 root prefix lsp.=C2=A0 Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec bindi=
ng for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation of the t=
ree how would that even work. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is =
key for any mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre style=3D"fon=
t-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><span style=
=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><br></span></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><s=
pan style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h3 style=3D"di=
splay:inline;font-size:1em"><a name=3D"m_8317563462660736941_section-6.4" h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-6.4" style=3D"color:blac=
k;text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank">6.4</a>.  Disabling Prefix-LSPs o=
n an mLDP-only Session</h3></span>

   Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP
   state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange
   bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is
   unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.

   Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its
   disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session
   establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities
   update.

   In reference to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473#section-3=
.1" target=3D"_blank">Section 3.1</a>, the peer disables the advertisement =
of
   any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP
   address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.</p=
re><pre style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-befor=
e:page"><br></pre></div><div>=C2=A0 I found the RFC 7473 sac knob for SR fo=
r capability exchange for mldp-only and configured on PEs first still no ch=
ange in MRIB state on egress PE </div></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div>then added knob to all Ps as well and still no change.=C2=
=A0 We can continue &quot;off list&quot;. Thanks.</div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div>RP/0/RP0/CPU0:PE1-XRV9k#sh run mpls ldp =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>Sun Mar 22 23:12:24.127 UTC<br>mpls ldp<br>=C2=A0!<br>=C2=
=A0<b>capabilities sac mldp-only<br>=C2=A0</b><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
-Rishabh<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusa=
gsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you Rishabh!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vend=
or specific however I am using Cisco as an example.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that thi=
s thread is related is with multicast=C2=A0 SR-MPLS support use case where =
you are migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP=
 TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wha=
t options are available for multicast support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be u=
sed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any other options for operators?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gyan,<br>
&gt;&gt; These questions are implementation specific and should be addresse=
d<br>
&gt;&gt; off the mailing list. Please contact me at <a href=3D"mailto:ripar=
ekh@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">riparekh@cisco.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -Rishabh<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Daniel &amp; Authors<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC test=
ing.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-sprin=
g-sr-replication-segment/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to =
replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE con=
troller based model using BGP LS.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes=
 7.0.1 using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything =
is working very well from a unicast perspective.=C2=A0 No issues.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have LDP still enabled but via =E2=80=9CSR-Prefer=E2=80=9D =
am using SR-MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 I kept LDP enabled so I can use mL=
DP for LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically that all MVP=
N procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for p-tree using =
mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast=
..<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build fo=
r MP2MP or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build=
.=C2=A0 Not sure why?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Any ideas.=C2=A0 Is there anything special I have to do for m=
ulticast to use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data =
plane.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think what=E2=80=99s happening is at the data plane forward=
ing level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dyna=
mic and static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ER=
O loose path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP t=
ree instantiation via SR-TE.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Is that possible?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr=
ing</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, s=
erif"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"=
#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font siz=
e=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp;=
 Technology=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver =
Spring, MD 20904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D=
"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Emai=
l: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mi=
shra@verizon.com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><b=
r></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"1=
" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mi=
shra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000=
000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</fo=
nt></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"ge=
orgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"=
1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georg=
ia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=
=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:g=
yan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></=
font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000007ea17f05a179c345--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
CC: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Voyer,  Daniel" <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/5k47qXXtQriYtqzp2cKKj5V8vbI>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT
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Gyan,

You're most welcome.

Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 5:26 PM
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Voyer=
, Daniel <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT


Thanks John!!

Did a quick read and does appear the concept of P2MP tree "P2MP LSM like" i=
nstantiation optimization alternative to IR P2P replication which is proces=
s intensive on the head end FEC root SR source node.  Appears it is backwar=
ds compatible to IR if utilized.

Great!!

Thanks

Gyan

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 4:59 PM John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net<mailto:jdr=
ake@juniper.net>> wrote:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-spring-p2mp-transport-chain-01<https=
://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-spring-p2mp-tr=
ansport-chain-01__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SZJ9KrZb5FDnLgfvSpVcwP1SN97M1awV1MKU3fNf7m=
YhEME91N98Z71-Iqb9JzI$>

Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> On B=
ehalf Of Gyan Mishra
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:45 PM
To: Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com<mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com>>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Voyer, Daniel <dan=
iel.voyer@bell.ca<mailto:daniel.voyer@bell.ca>>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT



On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com<mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com>> wrote:
Gyan,

>The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used =
for PCE centralized controller model.
>I am guessing BIER maybe an option?

Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.

    So BIER technically can be used with SR but has its own BIFT forwarding=
 table.  Understood.

For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP core and y=
ou don't want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available and SR replicati=
on tree SID draft can only be used if a centralized PCE is utilized what al=
ternatives or options does the operators have?

Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hybrid model and BGP prefi=
x SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS propagation would that=
 be an option for SR-MPLS multicast P2MP and MP2MP LMDTs?


Any other options for operators?

LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.

So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and have SR-PRE=
FER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS forwarding pl=
ane - so then for multicast to work to use mLDP data plane this draft and w=
hat you are saying for that to work is you have to configure a knob to disa=
ble FEC root prefix lsp.  Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec bin=
ding for mLDP core p-tree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation of the=
 tree how would that even work.

There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is key for any m=
LDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.





6.4<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-=
6.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiW=
EniowQKaRs$>.  Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session





   Assume that LSR1 and LSR2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP

   state only.  In typical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange

   bindings for IP (unicast) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is

   unnecessary and wasteful for an mLDP-only LSR.



   Using the procedures defined earlier, an LSR can indicate its

   disinterest in Prefix-LSP application state to its peer upon session

   establishment time or dynamically later via an LDP capabilities

   update.



   In reference to Section 3.1<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.iet=
f.org/html/rfc7473*section-3..1__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz7=
6hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnivJQNlUY$>, the peer disables the advertiseme=
nt of

   any state related to IP Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP

   address bindings that are required for the correct operation of mLDP.




-Rishabh

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Rishabh!
>
> I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.
>
> The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vendor =
specific however I am using Cisco as an example.
>
> From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that this t=
hread is related is with multicast  SR-MPLS support use case where you are =
migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.
>
> In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP TE=
 or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model what o=
ptions are available for multicast support.
>
> The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be used=
 for PCE centralized controller model.
>
> I am guessing BIER maybe an option?
>
> Any other options for operators?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Gyan
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh <rishabhp@gmail.com<mailto=
:rishabhp@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Gyan,
>> These questions are implementation specific and should be addressed
>> off the mailing list. Please contact me at riparekh@cisco.com<mailto:rip=
arekh@cisco.com>.
>>
>> -Rishabh
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailt=
o:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Daniel & Authors
>> >
>> > I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC testing.
>> >
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-seg=
ment/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voy=
er-spring-sr-replication-segment/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz7=
6hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnihata2k0$>
>> >
>> > In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to replicati=
on to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE controller b=
ased model using BGP LS.
>> >
>> > I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes 7.0.1 us=
ing ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything is workin=
g very well from a unicast perspective.  No issues.
>> >
>> > I have LDP still enabled but via "SR-Prefer" am using SR-MPLS forwardi=
ng plane.  I kept LDP enabled so I can use mLDP for LMDT label switched tre=
es for multicast and technically that all MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 enc=
ap tunnel types should work for p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for mult=
icast while SR-MPLS is being used for unicast...
>> >
>> > I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build for MP2MP o=
r P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build..  Not s=
ure why?

>> >
>> > Any ideas.  Is there anything special I have to do for multicast to us=
e the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data plane.
>> >
>> > I think what's happening is at the data plane forwarding level SR-MPLS=
 data plane is being used instead of mLDP.
>> >
>> > I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dynamic and s=
tatic ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.
>> >
>> > I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ERO loose p=
ath using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP tree insta=
ntiation via SR-TE.
>> >
>> > Is that possible?
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > Gyan
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Gyan  Mishra
>> >
>> > Network Engineering & Technology
>> >
>> > Verizon
>> >
>> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
>> >
>> > Phone: 301 502-1347
>> >
>> > Email: gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > spring mailing list
>> > spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_O=
i0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEniD2y-tsc$>
>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
>
>
>
--
Gyan  Mishra
Network Engineering & Technology
Verizon
Silver Spring, MD 20904
Phone: 301 502-1347
Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>


--
Gyan  Mishra
Network Engineering & Technology
Verizon
Silver Spring, MD 20904
Phone: 301 502-1347
Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>



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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gyan,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You&#8217;re most welcome.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Gyan Mishra &lt;hayabusagsm@gmail.com&g=
t; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 22, 2020 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Rishabh Parekh &lt;rishabhp@gmail.com&gt;; SPRING WG &lt;spring@=
ietf.org&gt;; Voyer, Daniel &lt;daniel.voyer@bell.ca&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks John!!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Did a quick read and does appear the concept of P2MP=
 tree &#8220;P2MP LSM like&#8221; instantiation optimization alternative to=
 IR P2P replication which is process intensive on the head end FEC root SR =
source node.&nbsp; Appears it is backwards compatible
 to IR if utilized. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Great!!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gyan<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 4:59 PM John E Drake &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-shen-spring-p2mp-transport-chain-01__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SZJ9KrZb5FDnLgfvS=
pVcwP1SN97M1awV1MKU3fNf7mYhEME91N98Z71-Iqb9JzI$" target=3D"_blank">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shen-spring-p2mp-transport-chain-01</a><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">John<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:ce=
nter"><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b>From:</b> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gyan Mishra<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rishabhp@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> SPRING WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Voyer, Daniel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel.voye=
r@bell.ca" target=3D"_blank">daniel.voyer@bell.ca</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] SR replication segment for P2MP MDT<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Gyan,<br>
<br>
&gt;The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be us=
ed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
<br>
Strictly speaking, BIER is not SR dataplane, but yes it is an option.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; So BIER technically can be used with SR but has its =
own BIFT forwarding table.&nbsp; Understood.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">For the WG question I posed is that if LDP is eliminated from SP c=
ore and you don&#8217;t want to use RSVP-TE and BIER is not yet available a=
nd SR replication tree SID draft can only
 be used if a centralized PCE is utilized what alternatives or options does=
 the operators have? &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Also if PCE is configured on SR source node in a hybrid model and =
BGP prefix SID is advertise by PCC elements in IGP via BGP LS propagation w=
ould that be an option for SR-MPLS multicast
 P2MP and MP2MP LMDTs?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
<br>
Any other options for operators?<br>
<br>
LDP with RFC 7473 can be used just for mLDP LSPs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">So in the case where you have LDP still enabled in the core and ha=
ve SR-PREFER configured so all L3 vpn unicast traffic is using SR-MPLS forw=
arding plane - so then for multicast
 to work to use mLDP data plane this draft and what you are saying for that=
 to work is you have to configure a knob to disable FEC root prefix lsp.&nb=
sp; Not sure how that would work as that mldp fec binding for mLDP core p-t=
ree gloabal is PSMI/UI/MI/S MVPN instantiation
 of the tree how would that even work. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">There is some XR knob I am missing to get this working and is key =
for any mLDP MVPN profiles Verizon will be using.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<h3><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc74=
73*section-6.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJm=
mQDOeIEnDiWEniowQKaRs$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;text-decoration:none">6.4</s=
pan></a><a name=3D"m_-3852036804219126966_m_-56524950358915"></a><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">.&nbsp;
 Disabling Prefix-LSPs on an mLDP-only Session</span><o:p></o:p></h3>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; Assume that LSR1 and LSR=
2 have formed an LDP session to exchange mLDP</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; state only.&nbsp; In typ=
ical deployments, LSR1 and LSR2 also exchange</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; bindings for IP (unicast=
) prefixes upon mLDP session, which is</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; unnecessary and wasteful=
 for an mLDP-only LSR.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; Using the procedures def=
ined earlier, an LSR can indicate its</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; disinterest in Prefix-LS=
P application state to its peer upon session</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; establishment time or dy=
namically later via an LDP capabilities</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; update.</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; In reference to <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7473*section-=
3..1__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDi=
WEnivJQNlUY$" target=3D"_blank">Section 3.1</a>, the peer disables the adve=
rtisement of</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; any state related to IP =
Prefix FECs, but it still advertises IP</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; address bindings that ar=
e required for the correct operation of mLDP.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
-Rishabh<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusa=
gsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you Rishabh!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I will contact you regarding Cisco specific questions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The questions apply to multicast support with SR-MPLS and are not vend=
or specific however I am using Cisco as an example.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From a IETF standards perspective, I believe the one question that thi=
s thread is related is with multicast&nbsp; SR-MPLS support use case where =
you are migrated to SR-MPLS and LDP has been removed from the SP core.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In this customer use case where the customer does not want to use RSVP=
 TE or IR due to replication processing overhead in a distributed model wha=
t options are available for multicast support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The SR replication segment tree sid draft states that it can only be u=
sed for PCE centralized controller model.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am guessing BIER maybe an option?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any other options for operators?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM Rishabh Parekh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ishabhp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rishabhp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gyan,<br>
&gt;&gt; These questions are implementation specific and should be addresse=
d<br>
&gt;&gt; off the mailing list. Please contact me at <a href=3D"mailto:ripar=
ekh@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">
riparekh@cisco.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -Rishabh<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:41 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Daniel &amp; Authors<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I had a question related to the draft related to lab POC test=
ing.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxB=
ymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywetIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEnihata2k0$" target=3D"_blan=
k">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment/=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In the draft it states that SR replication using Tree SID to =
replication to leafs on a tree is only supported with a centralized PCE con=
troller based model using BGP LS.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have an SR-MPLS Cisco VIRL POC test bed using XRV9000 nodes=
 7.0.1 using ISIS SR extensions where I have L3 vpn overlay and everything =
is working very well from a unicast perspective.&nbsp; No issues.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&gt;&gt; &gt; I have LDP still enabled but via &#8220;SR-Prefer&#8=
221; am using SR-MPLS forwarding plane.&nbsp; I kept LDP enabled so I can u=
se mLDP for LMDT label switched trees for multicast and technically
 that all MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514 encap tunnel types should work for =
p-tree using mLDP forwarding plane for multicast while SR-MPLS is being use=
d for unicast...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I can get the LMDT core tree default and data mdt to build fo=
r MP2MP or P2MP tree but cannot get on the FEC root the MRIB state to build=
..&nbsp; Not sure why?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Any ideas.&nbsp; Is there anything special I have to do for m=
ulticast to use the ldp mLDP extension data plane and not the SR-MPLS data =
plane.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think what&#8217;s happening is at the data plane forwardin=
g level SR-MPLS data plane is being used instead of mLDP.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have a bunch of SR-TE policies in place with candidate dyna=
mic and static ERO paths and that works well coloring the VRF steering.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I was wondering if I can use SR-TE binding Sid with Static ER=
O loose path using prefix SID of egress PE to replicate to and build P2MP t=
ree instantiation via SR-TE.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Is that possible?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gyan&nbsp; Mishra<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gyan.s..mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; spring mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WnhQxBymsn_Oi0zcyNKYUSvz76hpDCbxFiywe=
tIwJmmQDOeIEnDiWEniD2y-tsc$" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gyan&nbsp; Mishra<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">--
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Gyan&nbsp; Mishra</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Network Engineering &amp; Technology&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Verizon&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Phone: 301 502-1347</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Email:
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Gyan&nbsp; Mishra</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Network Engineering &amp; Technology&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Verizon&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Phone: 301 502-1347</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,ser=
if;color:black">Email:
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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In-Reply-To: <4bf64ede-c20b-2269-af11-1dffc5328935@cisco.com>
From: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:39:44 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHzoHbv3k2Thri-hx=FYOYFXEgqDXQagLzJjC8XQ2btgYgey0Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>,  Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Peter,

The proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV has several problems.

1) As discussed in item#3 below, it is not clear that flooding LB Length,
LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers is really the
right approach.  However, if the WG determines that it is the right
approach, the current encodings of this information in the proposed SRv6
SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV are problematic.  As discussed earlier in this
thread, a network operator may choose to not allocate all locators from a
single block, so LB Length and LN Length may not be well-defined.  The
current encoding of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV makes it difficult
to represent this situation.  The simple thing to do for nodes that don't
have a well-defined value of LB Length and LN Length would be to not
advertise a value for LB Length and LN Length.  However, since the
currently proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV combines LB Length, LN
Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length into a single sub-sub-TLV, if a node
wants to advertise values for Fun. Length and Arg. Length, it also has to
advertise values for LB Length and LN Length.  It seems like a better
approach would be to have different sub-sub-TLVs, one for  LB Length and LN
Length, and a separate one for Fun. Length and Arg. Length to be able to
better represent this situation.

2) Now consider the situation where a network operator chooses to allocate
all locators from a single block, so that LB Length and LN Length are
well-defined across the network.  A given node should presumably advertise
its own understanding of LB Length and LN Length.   A given node's
understanding of LB Length and LN Length is a property of the node.  It is
not a property of a given End SID.  The currently proposed SRv6 SID
Structure Sub-Sub-TLV however is carried within each End SID Sub-TLV.  With
the currently proposed encoding, presumably an implementation is expected
to send the exact same values of LB Length and LN Length for all of the End
SIDs that it advertises.  Not only is this inefficient, but it creates the
need for logic to decide what to do when different End SIDs advertised by
the same node carry different values of LB Length and LN Length in their
sub-sub-TLVs.  It seems like a better approach would be for a given node to
advertise its understanding of the value of LB Length and LN Length in a
sub-TLV of the Router Capability TLV.

3) At this point, the only use case that has been proposed for flooding the
LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers is
to make it more convenient for BGP-LS to get those values to an external
controller as part of a topology feed from any ISIS node.  No use case has
been proposed for ISIS speakers themselves to make use of the information.
It seems like a more scalable approach would be to use BGP-LS sessions to
collect the information from the subset of nodes that actually produce the
relevant information.  So far there are no End SIDs defined that are
advertised in ISIS that have a non-zero Arg. Length.  If an End SID with
non-zero Arg. Length were to be proposed in the future as needing to be
flooded to all ISIS nodes, it seems likely that the new End SID would also
be advertised using the BGP IP/VPN/EVPN control plane.   So it seems like a
viable alternative for this hypothetical future End SID would be to have
the subset of nodes that have non-zero Arg. Length values communicate to an
external controller via  BGP sessions. I think the WG needs a more detailed
discussion of a concrete use case in order to determine whether flooding LB
Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers is
really the right approach.

Given the lack of a compelling use case for flooding LB Length, LN Length,
Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers and the problems with the
currently proposed encodings for doing that, I think that the SRv6 SID
Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from
draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions. A mechanism for flooding LB Length, LN
Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers can be defined in
a future document.

Thanks,
Chris

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:02 AM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> On 12/03/2020 15:58, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > Peter,
> >
> > I think that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from
> > draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  I think that we should leave the
> > ability to include sub-sub-TLVs in the SRv6 End SID Sub-TLV, End.X SID
> > Sub-TLV, and LAN End.X SID Sub-TLV in the encodings for those sub-TLVs.
> >
> > I don't think that the current text describing the SRv6 SID Structure
> > Sub-Sub-TLV would result in interoperable implementations.  Based on th=
e
>
> SRv6 base spec defines SID B, L, A, F.
>
> SRv6 protocol specs are advertising these values with the SRv6 SID, they
> don't use them. The usage is outside of the scope of the protocol
> drafts. What exactly is the problem?
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
>
> > discussion with Ketan below, it appears that use cases for ISIS speaker=
s
> > receiving advertised values of LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and
> > Arg. Length are not currently well-defined.    So I think it makes sens=
e
> > to defer the definition of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV to a
> > future document.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> > <ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi Chris,____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Dropping the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming authors
> >     since we are now back to discussing the ISIS extensions.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Please check inline below.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     *From:*Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>
> >     *Sent:* 05 March 2020 21:53
> >     *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
> >     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>
> >     *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
> >     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>; lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>;
> >     SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>;
> >     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >     <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>; Pete=
r
> >     Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>;
> >     Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com
> >     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>
> >     *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator nod=
e
> >     in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> >     draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Ketan,____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     See inline [CB].____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> >     <ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>> wrote:____
> >
> >         Hi Chris,____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         You are right in that there is no assumption that all SRv6
> >         locators in a domain are allocated from the same block.
> >         Therefore knowing the blocks used in the domain is useful.____
> >
> >     ____
> >
> >     [CB] Since you refer to "blocks" (plural) in this sentence, are you
> >     saying that in the scenario where all SRv6 locators in a domain are
> >     not allocated from the same block, you would expect different
> >     routers in the same domain to advertise different values of B and N=
?
> >     ____
> >
> >     */[KT] While personally I believe it would not be the usual case, i=
t
> >     is left to the operator.____/*
> >
> >     */__ __/*
> >
> >     For example, assume we have a network where all SRv6 locators in a
> >     domain are not allocated from the same block.  Router A advertises
> >     an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 2000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID
> >     sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. Router B advertises an SRv6
> >     Locator TLV with locator =3D 3000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV
> >     with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A and B advertise
> >     as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLVs
> ?____
> >
> >     */[KT] It is difficult for me to figure out what the block and node
> >     parts are with such an addressing./*____
> >
> >     ____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the B and N parts of
> >         the locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On the
> >         receiver side, the IGP may not really do much with this
> >         information, however it enables propagation of this information
> >         from all nodes in the network to be advertised out via BGP-LS
> >         (or other mechanisms) as part of the topology feed. Once this i=
s
> >         part of the topology feed, it enables use-cases on controllers
> >         to perform network wide validation of the SRv6 SID block
> >         provisioning and can also help in automation of the security
> >         aspects described in
> >
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >     [CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anything with B and N=
,
> >     then I think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions needs
> >     to clarify this.  I have a similar observation about Fun. Length an=
d
> >     Arg. Length in the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .  As far as I ca=
n
> >     tell, none of the endpoint behaviors that are currently specified t=
o
> >     be carried in ISIS End, End.X, and LAN End.X SIDs sub-TLVs uses an
> >     Argument, so there is never a case where an SRv6 SID Structure
> >     Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value for Arg. Length. What
> >     should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero value of the
> >     Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn't use an argument?
> >     Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS speaker needs to
> >     know the Arg. Length ? ____
> >
> >     */[KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft do not have an
> >     argument nor is the use of B and N required for them. We cannot
> >     preclude a future use-case or extension where such behaviors
> >     introduced are also applicable to ISIS. So IMHO ruling such aspects
> >     out might not be the right thing to do from a protocol extensibilit=
y
> >     perspective.____/*
> >
> >     */__ __/*
> >
> >     */Thanks,____/*
> >
> >     */Ketan/*____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >         Thanks,____
> >
> >         Ketan____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         *From:*Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
> >         <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>
> >         *Sent:* 02 March 2020 23:39
> >         *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
> >         <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>
> >         *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> >         <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> >         <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; lsr@ietf.org
> >         <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org
> >         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>;
> >         draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >         <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
> >         <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>;
> >         Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
> >         <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>; Bruno Decraene
> >         <bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>
> >         *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator
> >         node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> >         draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         Ketan,____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 locators used i=
n
> >         a domain from a single block is optional.____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         However, assuming for the moment that a network operator has
> >         chosen to allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a
> >         single block, so that there is a well-defined value of B and N
> >         across a domain, what is the use of having a router advertise
> >         its own understanding of these two values?  And what is a
> >         receiver supposed to do with this information?____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         Thanks,____
> >
> >         Chris____
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >         On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com
> >         <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>> wrote:____
> >
> >             Hi Ketan,____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Thanks fort the follow up.____
> >
> >             Clarification inline [Bruno]____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             *From**:*Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com
> >             <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>]
> >             *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM
> >             *To:* DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant);
> >             Chris Bowers
> >             *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List;
> >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psenak
> >             (ppsenak)
> >             *Subject:* RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
> >             locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >             and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Hi Bruno,____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             I believe the description and usage of Locator is very well
> >             described and covered in the net-pgm draft as also the
> >             corresponding IGP extensions. Is the question is more about
> >             the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D part of it (what is not in the =
block part is in
> >             the node part as per the text in the net-pgm draft)?____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D is again not a new thing. Pleas=
e check the
> >             following:____
> >
> >             Under
> >
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#sec=
tion-5
> >             =E2=80=A6 look for =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D____
> >
> >             https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2 =E2=80=A6 loo=
k under
> >             SRGB for SRv6____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             [Bruno]____
> >
> >             To clarify, my question was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=
=E2=80=9D but
> >             related to the usage, by the receiver, of the following
> >             piece of information:____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >                    LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length____
> >
> >                    LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length____
> >
> >                    Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length____
> >
> >                    Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             So perhaps I don=E2=80=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and wo=
uld wait for him
> >             to clarify.____
> >
> >             [Bruno] I=E2=80=99ll leave this to Chris.____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Thanks,____
> >
> >             Ketan____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             *From:*Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org
> >             <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of
> >             *bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.co=
m
> >
> >             *Sent:* 28 February 2020 14:34
> >             *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> >             <ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> >             <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; Chris Bowers
> >             <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:
> chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>
> >             *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List
> >             <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>;
> >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >             <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
> >             <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
> >>;
> >             Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
> >             <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>
> >             *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
> >             locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >             and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Hi Ketan,____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             *From:*Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> >             *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> >             *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Hi Chris,____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since
> >             this is not a protocol specific thing.____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             I believe the text in
> >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clears says what
> >             locator block and locator node are. What more details do yo=
u
> >             think are required?____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             [Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft could possibly
> >             clarify the usage of these information/fields by the
> >             receiver. Possibly using the same name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID
> >             Locator Block length) to ease the references between both
> >             drafts.____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Thanks,____
> >
> >             --Bruno____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Thanks,____
> >
> >             Ketan____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             *From:*Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org
> >             <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers
> >             *Sent:* 27 February 2020 22:46
> >             *To:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; SPRING WG List
> >             <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
> >             *Cc:* Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
> >             <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>
> >             *Subject:* [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator
> >             node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
> >             draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             SPRING and LSR WGs,____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             I think that we need a much more detailed description of th=
e
> >             locator block and locator node in either
> >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or
> >             draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  See original email
> >             below.____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Thanks,____
> >
> >             Chris____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak
> >             <ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>> wrote:____
> >
> >                 Hi Chris,
> >
> >                 On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
> >                  > LSR WG,
> >                  >
> >                  > Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05
> >                 defines the  SRv6
> >                  > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines
> >                 encoding for the
> >                  > locator block length and the locator node length.
> >                 The text refers to
> >                  > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the
> >                 definition of these
> >                  > concepts.
> >                  >
> >                  > As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator
> >                 block and locator
> >                  > node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-1=
0
> >                 is section 3.1
> >                  > which has the following text:
> >                  >
> >                  >     A locator may be represented as B:N where B is
> >                 the SRv6 SID block
> >                  >     (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the
> >                 operator) and N is the
> >                  >     identifier of the parent node instantiating the
> >                 SID...
> >                  >
> >                  > I think that we need a much more detailed descriptio=
n
> >                 of the locator
> >                  > block and locator node.
> >
> >                 sure, but that would be in the
> >                 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
> >                 draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a
> >                 protocol
> >                 specific constructs.
> >
> >                 thanks,
> >                 Peter
> >
> >                  >
> >                  > Thanks,
> >                  >
> >                  > Chris
> >                  > ____
> >
> >
>  ________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
> >             informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent
> donc____
> >
> >             pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. S=
i
> >             vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le
> signaler____
> >
> >             a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.
> >             Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> d'alteration,____
> >
> >             Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete
> >             altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             This message and its attachments may contain confidential o=
r
> >             privileged information that may be protected by law;____
> >
> >             they should not be distributed, used or copied without
> >             authorisation.____
> >
> >             If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> >             sender and delete this message and its attachments.____
> >
> >             As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
> >             that have been modified, changed or falsified.____
> >
> >             Thank you.____
> >
> >
>  ________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
> >             informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent
> donc____
> >
> >             pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. S=
i
> >             vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le
> signaler____
> >
> >             a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.
> >             Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> d'alteration,____
> >
> >             Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete
> >             altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.____
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             This message and its attachments may contain confidential o=
r
> >             privileged information that may be protected by law;____
> >
> >             they should not be distributed, used or copied without
> >             authorisation.____
> >
> >             If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> >             sender and delete this message and its attachments.____
> >
> >             As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
> >             that have been modified, changed or falsified.____
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> >             Thank you.____
> >
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Peter,</div><div><br></div><div>
The proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV has several problems.<br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>
<div>1) As discussed in item#3 below, it is not clear that flooding=20
LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length

 to all ISIS speakers is really the right approach.=C2=A0 However, if the W=
G determines that it is the right approach, the current encodings of this i=
nformation in the proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV are problematic.=
=C2=A0 As discussed earlier in this thread, a network operator may choose t=
o not allocate all locators from a single block, so LB Length and LN Length=
 may not be well-defined.=C2=A0 The current encoding of the=20
SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV makes it difficult to represent this situati=
on.=C2=A0 The simple thing to do for nodes that don&#39;t have a well-defin=
ed value of
LB Length and LN Length

 would be to not advertise a value for
LB Length and LN Length.=C2=A0 However, since the currently proposed


SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV combines=20
LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length into a single sub-sub-TL=
V, if a node wants to advertise values for Fun. Length and Arg. Length, it =
also has to advertise values for=20
LB Length and LN Length.=C2=A0 It seems like a better approach would be to =
have different sub-sub-TLVs, one for=C2=A0


LB Length and LN Length, and a separate one for Fun. Length and Arg. Length=
 to be able to better represent this situation.

</div><div><br></div><div>2) Now consider the situation where a=20
network operator chooses to allocate all locators from a single block, so t=
hat LB Length and LN Length are well-defined across the network.=C2=A0 A gi=
ven node should presumably advertise its own understanding of=20
LB Length and LN Length.=C2=A0=C2=A0
A given node&#39;s understanding of=20
LB Length and LN Length is a property of the node.=C2=A0 It is not a proper=
ty of a given End SID.=C2=A0 The=20
 currently proposed


SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV however is carried within each End SID Sub-T=
LV.=C2=A0 With the currently proposed encoding, presumably an implementatio=
n is expected to send the exact same values of=20
LB Length and LN Length for all of the End SIDs that it advertises.=C2=A0 N=
ot only is this inefficient, but it creates the need for logic to decide wh=
at to do when different End SIDs advertised by the same node carry differen=
t=20
 values of=20
LB Length and LN Length in their sub-sub-TLVs.=C2=A0 It seems like a better=
 approach would be for a given node to advertise its understanding of the v=
alue of
LB Length and LN Length in a sub-TLV of the Router Capability TLV.</div>

</div><div><br></div><div>3) At this point, the only use case that has been=
 proposed for flooding the LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Leng=
th

 to all ISIS speakers is to make it more convenient for BGP-LS to get those=
 values to an external controller as part of a topology feed from any ISIS =
node.=C2=A0 No use case has been proposed for ISIS speakers themselves to m=
ake use of the information.=C2=A0 It seems like a more scalable approach wo=
uld be to use BGP-LS sessions to collect the information from the subset of=
 nodes that actually produce the relevant information.=C2=A0=20
So far there are no End SIDs defined that are advertised in ISIS that have =
a non-zero Arg. Length.=C2=A0 If an End SID with=20
non-zero Arg. Length were to be proposed in the future as needing to be flo=
oded to all ISIS nodes, it seems likely that the new End SID would also be =
advertised using the BGP IP/VPN/EVPN control plane. =C2=A0 So it seems like=
 a viable alternative for this hypothetical future End SID would be to have=
 the subset of nodes that have non-zero Arg. Length values communicate to a=
n external controller via=C2=A0 BGP sessions. I think the WG needs a more d=
etailed discussion of a concrete use case in order to determine whether flo=
oding=20
LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length

 to all ISIS speakers is really the right approach.<br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Given the lack of a compelling use case for=20
flooding LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length

 to all ISIS speakers and the problems with the currently proposed encoding=
s for doing that, I think that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be=
 removed from draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions. A mechanism for flooding=
 LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length

 to all ISIS speakers can be defined in a future document.<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks,<br></div><div>Chris<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5=
:02 AM Peter Psenak &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
On 12/03/2020 15:58, Chris Bowers wrote:<br>
&gt; Peter,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from=
 <br>
&gt; draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.=C2=A0 I think that we should leav=
e the <br>
&gt; ability to include sub-sub-TLVs in the SRv6 End SID Sub-TLV, End.X SID=
 <br>
&gt; Sub-TLV, and LAN End.X SID Sub-TLV in the encodings for those sub-TLVs=
.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think that the current text describing the SRv6 SID Struct=
ure <br>
&gt; Sub-Sub-TLV would result in interoperable implementations.=C2=A0 Based=
 on the<br>
<br>
SRv6 base spec defines SID B, L, A, F.<br>
<br>
SRv6 protocol specs are advertising these values with the SRv6 SID, they <b=
r>
don&#39;t use them. The usage is outside of the scope of the protocol <br>
drafts. What exactly is the problem?<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; discussion with Ketan below, it appears that use cases for ISIS speake=
rs <br>
&gt; receiving advertised values of LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and =
<br>
&gt; Arg. Length are not currently well-defined. =C2=A0=C2=A0 So I think it=
 makes sense <br>
&gt; to defer the definition of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV to a <br=
>
&gt; future document.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Chris<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco=
.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">k=
etant@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Chris,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dropping the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-program=
ming authors<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0since we are now back to discussing the ISIS extens=
ions.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please check inline below.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowe=
rs.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* 05 March 2020 21:53<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networ=
k-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pr=
ogramming@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6=
-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net=
work-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;; Peter<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bruno Decraene &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene=
@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.=
com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block=
 and locator node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ketan,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0See inline [CB].____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (k=
etant)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ketant@cisco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Chris,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0You are right in that there is no ass=
umption that all SRv6<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locators in a domain are allocated fr=
om the same block.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Therefore knowing the blocks used in =
the domain is useful.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[CB] Since you refer to &quot;blocks&quot; (plural)=
 in this sentence, are you<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0saying that in the scenario where all SRv6 locators=
 in a domain are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not allocated from the same block, you would expect=
 different<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routers in the same domain to advertise different v=
alues of B and N?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/[KT] While personally I believe it would not be t=
he usual case, it<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is left to the operator.____/*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/__ __/*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, assume we have a network where all SRv=
6 locators in a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0domain are not allocated from the same block.=C2=A0=
 Router A advertises<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator =3D 2000::/64, and=
 an SRv6 End SID<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. Router B adver=
tises an SRv6<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Locator TLV with locator =3D 3000::/64, and an SRv6=
 End SID sub-TLV<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A =
and B advertise<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structur=
e Sub-Sub-TLVs ?____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/[KT] It is difficult for me to figure out what th=
e block and node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parts are with such an addressing./*____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IGP drafts covers the advertiseme=
nt of the B and N parts of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the locally configured locator on the=
 node via IGPs. On the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0receiver side, the IGP may not really=
 do much with this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information, however it enables propa=
gation of this information<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from all nodes in the network to be a=
dvertised out via BGP-LS<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or other mechanisms) as part of the =
topology feed. Once this is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0part of the topology feed, it enables=
 use-cases on controllers<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to perform network wide validation of=
 the SRv6 SID block<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioning and can also help in aut=
omation of the security<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0aspects described in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5____" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-ro=
uting-header-26#section-5____</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anyth=
ing with B and N,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0then I think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-e=
xtensions needs<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to clarify this.=C2=A0 I have a similar observation=
 about Fun. Length and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Arg. Length in the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .=
=C2=A0 As far as I can<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tell, none of the endpoint behaviors that are curre=
ntly specified to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be carried in ISIS End, End.X, and LAN End.X SIDs s=
ub-TLVs uses an<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Argument, so there is never a case where an SRv6 SI=
D Structure<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value for Arg. L=
ength. What<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero=
 value of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn&#39=
;t use an argument? <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS sp=
eaker needs to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know the Arg. Length ? ____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/[KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft =
do not have an<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0argument nor is the use of B and N required for the=
m. We cannot<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0preclude a future use-case or extension where such =
behaviors<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0introduced are also applicable to ISIS. So IMHO rul=
ing such aspects<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0out might not be the right thing to do from a proto=
col extensibility<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective.____/*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/__ __/*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/Thanks,____/*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*/Ketan/*____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ketan____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.c=
om</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbow=
ers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* 02 March 2020 23:39<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a><b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisc=
o.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;&=
gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>&gt;; SPRING WG List &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra=
mming<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spri=
ng-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-s=
rv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ie=
tf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-s=
pring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Peter Psenak (ppsenak) &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@=
cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Bruno Decraene<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@o=
range.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of=
 locator block and locator<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networ=
k-programming and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions__=
__<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ketan,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Based on current documents, allocatin=
g all SRv6 locators used in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a domain from a single block is optio=
nal.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, assuming for the moment that=
 a network operator has<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0chosen to allocate all SRv6 locators =
used in a domain from a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0single block, so that there is a well=
-defined value of B and N<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0across a domain, what is the use of h=
aving a router advertise<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its own understanding of these two va=
lues?=C2=A0 And what is a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0receiver supposed to do with this inf=
ormation?____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Chris____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraen=
e@orange.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.de=
craene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Ketan,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks fort the follow =
up.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Clarification inline [B=
runo]____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From**:*Ketan Talaulik=
ar (ketant) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">k=
etant@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;]<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Friday, Februar=
y 28, 2020 11:11 AM<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* DECRAENE Bruno TG=
I/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant);<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Chris Bowers<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* <a href=3D"mailto=
:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>&gt;; SPRING WG List;<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-=
network-programming; Peter Psenak<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(ppsenak)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* RE: [Lsr] cl=
arification of locator block and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locator node in draft-i=
etf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and draft-ietf-lsr-isis=
-srv6-extensions____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Bruno,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I believe the descripti=
on and usage of Locator is very well<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described and covered i=
n the net-pgm draft as also the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0corresponding IGP exten=
sions. Is the question is more about<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=
=80=9D part of it (what is not in the block part is in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the node part as per th=
e text in the net-pgm draft)?____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=
=80=9D is again not a new thing. Please check the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0following:____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Under<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-=
segment-routing-header-26#section-5</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A6 look for =E2=
=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2</a> =E2=80=A6 look under<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRGB for SRv6____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Bruno]____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To clarify, my question=
 was not specific to =E2=80=9Cblock=E2=80=9D but<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0related to the usage, b=
y the receiver, of the following<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0piece of information:__=
__<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So perhaps I don=E2=80=
=99t get Chris=E2=80=99s point and would wait for him<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to clarify.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Bruno] I=E2=80=99ll le=
ave this to Chris.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ketan____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*Lsr &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&=
gt; *On Behalf Of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*<a href=3D"mailto:brun=
o.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno.decraene@orange.com</a> &lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">bruno=
.decraene@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* 28 February 202=
0 14:34<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* Ketan Talaulikar =
(ketant)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;ketant=3D<a href=3D=
"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@dmarc.iet=
f.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco..com@dmarc.iet=
f.org</a>&gt;&gt;; Chris Bowers<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:c=
hrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* <a href=3D"mailto=
:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>&gt;; SPRING WG List<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-=
network-programming<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
raft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Peter Psenak (ppsenak) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.co=
m</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re: [Lsr] cl=
arification of locator block and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locator node in draft-i=
etf-spring-srv6-network-programming<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and draft-ietf-lsr-isis=
-srv6-extensions____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Ketan,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*Lsr [mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>] *On Behalf Of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Ketan Talaulikar (keta=
nt)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Friday, Februar=
y 28, 2020 6:30 AM____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Chris,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with Peter and =
I would suggest to drop LSR since<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this is not a protocol =
specific thing.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I believe the text in<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-=
network-programming clears says what<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locator block and locat=
or node are. What more details do you<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think are required?____=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Bruno] Speaking as an =
individual, the draft could possibly<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clarify the usage of th=
ese information/fields by the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0receiver. Possibly usin=
g the same name/term (e.g. SRv6 SID<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Locator Block length) t=
o ease the references between both<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drafts.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--Bruno____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ketan____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*Lsr &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&=
gt; *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* 27 February 202=
0 22:46<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* <a href=3D"mailto=
:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</a>&gt;; SPRING WG List<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* Peter Psenak (pps=
enak) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@ci=
sco.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* [Lsr] clarif=
ication of locator block and locator<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0node in draft-ietf-spri=
ng-srv6-network-programming and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv=
6-extensions____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SPRING and LSR WGs,____=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think that we need a =
much more detailed description of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locator block and locat=
or node in either<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-=
network-programming or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv=
6-extensions.=C2=A0 See original email<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0below.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Chris____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at=
 11:08 AM Peter Psenak<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
psenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt; wrote:____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Chris,=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 27/02/=
2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; LSR=
 WG,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sec=
tion 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0defines t=
he=C2=A0 SRv6<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; SID=
 Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encoding =
for the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; loc=
ator block length and the locator node length. <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The text =
refers to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; [I-=
D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0definitio=
n of these<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; con=
cepts.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; As =
far as I can tell, the only reference to locator<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0block and=
 locator<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; nod=
e in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is sectio=
n 3.1<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; whi=
ch has the following text:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A locator may be represented as B:N where B is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the SRv6 =
SID block<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0operator)=
 and N is the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier of the parent node instantiating the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SID...<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I t=
hink that we need a much more detailed description<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the lo=
cator<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; blo=
ck and locator node.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sure, but=
 that would be in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-iet=
f-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-iet=
f-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific =
constructs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thanks,<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Peter<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Tha=
nks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Chr=
is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; ___=
_<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
___________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ce message et ses piece=
s jointes peuvent contenir des<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0informations confidenti=
elles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pas etre diffuses, expl=
oites ou copies sans autorisation. Si<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vous avez recu ce messa=
ge par erreur, veuillez le signaler____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a l&#39;expediteur et l=
e detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Les messages electroniq=
ues etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Orange decline toute re=
sponsabilite si ce message a ete<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0altere, deforme ou fals=
ifie. Merci.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This message and its at=
tachments may contain confidential or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0privileged information =
that may be protected by law;____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they should not be dist=
ributed, used or copied without<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authorisation.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you have received th=
is email in error, please notify the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As emails may be altere=
d, Orange is not liable for messages<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that have been modified=
, changed or falsified.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
___________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ce message et ses piece=
s jointes peuvent contenir des<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0informations confidenti=
elles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pas etre diffuses, expl=
oites ou copies sans autorisation. Si<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vous avez recu ce messa=
ge par erreur, veuillez le signaler____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a l&#39;expediteur et l=
e detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Les messages electroniq=
ues etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Orange decline toute re=
sponsabilite si ce message a ete<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0altere, deforme ou fals=
ifie. Merci.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This message and its at=
tachments may contain confidential or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0privileged information =
that may be protected by law;____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they should not be dist=
ributed, used or copied without<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authorisation.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you have received th=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sender and delete this =
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&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As emails may be altere=
d, Orange is not liable for messages<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that have been modified=
, changed or falsified.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you.____<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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To: Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
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Chris,

please see inline:


On 23/03/2020 17:39, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> The proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV has several problems.
> 
> 1) As discussed in item#3 below, it is not clear that flooding LB 
> Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers is 
> really the right approach.  However, if the WG determines that it is the 
> right approach, the current encodings of this information in the 
> proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV are problematic.  As discussed 
> earlier in this thread, a network operator may choose to not allocate 
> all locators from a single block, so LB Length and LN Length may not be 
> well-defined.  

I'm not sure what do you mean by not "well defined". For every SID you 
need to know the LOC (B+N) part. If you guarantee that it is the same on 
all nodes, you know it from the local config, otherwise, you advertise 
it with a SID.

> The current encoding of the SRv6 SID Structure 
> Sub-Sub-TLV makes it difficult to represent this situation.  The simple 
> thing to do for nodes that don't have a well-defined value of LB Length 
> and LN Length would be to not advertise a value for LB Length and LN 
> Length.  However, since the currently proposed SRv6 SID Structure 
> Sub-Sub-TLV combines LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length 
> into a single sub-sub-TLV, if a node wants to advertise values for Fun. 
> Length and Arg. Length, it also has to advertise values for LB Length 
> and LN Length.  It seems like a better approach would be to have 
> different sub-sub-TLVs, one for  LB Length and LN Length, and a separate 
> one for Fun. Length and Arg. Length to be able to better represent this 
> situation.


I'm afraid you are missing an important point.

SRv6 SID is defined as LOC:FUNCT:ARG, where LOC is represented as B:N. 
To be able to find out where the func and arg are located, you need to 
know the LOC length, e.g. Block and Node length. Advertising just Func 
and Arg length does not help.


> 
> 2) Now consider the situation where a network operator chooses to 
> allocate all locators from a single block, so that LB Length and LN 
> Length are well-defined across the network.  A given node should 
> presumably advertise its own understanding of LB Length and LN Length.   
> A given node's understanding of LB Length and LN Length is a property of 
> the node.  It is not a property of a given End SID.  The currently 
> proposed SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV however is carried within each 
> End SID Sub-TLV.  With the currently proposed encoding, presumably an 
> implementation is expected to send the exact same values of LB Length 
> and LN Length for all of the End SIDs that it advertises.  Not only is 
> this inefficient, but it creates the need for logic to decide what to do 
> when different End SIDs advertised by the same node carry different 
> values of LB Length and LN Length in their sub-sub-TLVs.  It seems like 
> a better approach would be for a given node to advertise its 
> understanding of the value of LB Length and LN Length in a sub-TLV of 
> the Router Capability TLV.

When we design the encoding, we have to define it such, that it supports 
all possible use cases. We can not design the encoding that works for 
single use case (allocate all locators from a single block) and does not 
work for others - different block from different node, multiple blocks 
on a single node (e.g. border node), which are all valid.

> 
> 3) At this point, the only use case that has been proposed for flooding 
> the LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS 
> speakers is to make it more convenient for BGP-LS to get those values to 
> an external controller as part of a topology feed from any ISIS node.  
> No use case has been proposed for ISIS speakers themselves to make use 
> of the information.  It seems like a more scalable approach would be to 
> use BGP-LS sessions to collect the information from the subset of nodes 
> that actually produce the relevant information.  So far there are no End 
> SIDs defined that are advertised in ISIS that have a non-zero Arg. 
> Length.  If an End SID with non-zero Arg. Length were to be proposed in 
> the future as needing to be flooded to all ISIS nodes, it seems likely 
> that the new End SID would also be advertised using the BGP IP/VPN/EVPN 
> control plane.   So it seems like a viable alternative for this 
> hypothetical future End SID would be to have the subset of nodes that 
> have non-zero Arg. Length values communicate to an external controller 
> via  BGP sessions. I think the WG needs a more detailed discussion of a 
> concrete use case in order to determine whether flooding LB Length, LN 
> Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers is really the 
> right approach.

there are networks, where BGP is not deployed on all nodes, only on a 
few nodes that re-distribute the information to BGP-LS. In such case we 
need the IGP to distribute this data.

Argument that "it seems likely that the new End SID would also be 
advertised using the BGP IP/VPN/EVPN" is a wishful thinking that we can 
not based our encoding on.


> 
> Given the lack of a compelling use case for flooding LB Length, LN 
> Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers and the 
> problems with the currently proposed encodings for doing that, I think 
> that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed from 
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions. A mechanism for flooding LB Length, 
> LN Length, Fun. Length, and Arg. Length to all ISIS speakers can be 
> defined in a future document.

The security use case has already been pointed out earlier in this thread:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5

Given the arguments I mentioned above, I respectfully disagree with the 
removal of the SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV from the ISIS SRv6 draft.

thanks,
Peter


> 
> Thanks,
> Chris
> 
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:02 AM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com 
> <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Chris,
> 
>     On 12/03/2020 15:58, Chris Bowers wrote:
>      > Peter,
>      >
>      > I think that the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV should be removed
>     from
>      > draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  I think that we should
>     leave the
>      > ability to include sub-sub-TLVs in the SRv6 End SID Sub-TLV,
>     End.X SID
>      > Sub-TLV, and LAN End.X SID Sub-TLV in the encodings for those
>     sub-TLVs.
>      >
>      > I don't think that the current text describing the SRv6 SID
>     Structure
>      > Sub-Sub-TLV would result in interoperable implementations.  Based
>     on the
> 
>     SRv6 base spec defines SID B, L, A, F.
> 
>     SRv6 protocol specs are advertising these values with the SRv6 SID,
>     they
>     don't use them. The usage is outside of the scope of the protocol
>     drafts. What exactly is the problem?
> 
>     thanks,
>     Peter
> 
> 
>      > discussion with Ketan below, it appears that use cases for ISIS
>     speakers
>      > receiving advertised values of LB Length, LN Length, Fun. Length,
>     and
>      > Arg. Length are not currently well-defined.    So I think it
>     makes sense
>      > to defer the definition of the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV to a
>      > future document.
>      >
>      > Thanks,
>      > Chris
>      >
>      > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>      > <ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     Hi Chris,____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Dropping the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming authors
>      >     since we are now back to discussing the ISIS extensions.____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Please check inline below.____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     *From:*Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
>      >     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>>
>      >     *Sent:* 05 March 2020 21:53
>      >     *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>
>      >     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>>
>      >     *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>
>      >     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>>;
>     lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org> <mailto:lsr@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>>;
>      >     SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>>;
>      >     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>      >     <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
>      >     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>>; Peter
>      >     Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com> <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>>;
>      >     Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>      >     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>>
>      >     *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>     locator node
>      >     in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
>      >     draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Ketan,____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     See inline [CB].____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>      >     <ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>> wrote:____
>      >
>      >         Hi Chris,____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         You are right in that there is no assumption that all SRv6
>      >         locators in a domain are allocated from the same block.
>      >         Therefore knowing the blocks used in the domain is
>     useful.____
>      >
>      >     ____
>      >
>      >     [CB] Since you refer to "blocks" (plural) in this sentence,
>     are you
>      >     saying that in the scenario where all SRv6 locators in a
>     domain are
>      >     not allocated from the same block, you would expect different
>      >     routers in the same domain to advertise different values of B
>     and N?
>      >     ____
>      >
>      >     */[KT] While personally I believe it would not be the usual
>     case, it
>      >     is left to the operator.____/*
>      >
>      >     */__ __/*
>      >
>      >     For example, assume we have a network where all SRv6 locators
>     in a
>      >     domain are not allocated from the same block.  Router A
>     advertises
>      >     an SRv6 Locator TLV with locator = 2000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID
>      >     sub-TLV with some endpoint behavior. Router B advertises an SRv6
>      >     Locator TLV with locator = 3000::/64, and an SRv6 End SID sub-TLV
>      >     with some endpoint behavior. What should routers A and B
>     advertise
>      >     as the values of B and N in their SRv6 SID Structure
>     Sub-Sub-TLVs ?____
>      >
>      >     */[KT] It is difficult for me to figure out what the block
>     and node
>      >     parts are with such an addressing./*____
>      >
>      >     ____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         The IGP drafts covers the advertisement of the B and N
>     parts of
>      >         the locally configured locator on the node via IGPs. On the
>      >         receiver side, the IGP may not really do much with this
>      >         information, however it enables propagation of this
>     information
>      >         from all nodes in the network to be advertised out via BGP-LS
>      >         (or other mechanisms) as part of the topology feed. Once
>     this is
>      >         part of the topology feed, it enables use-cases on
>     controllers
>      >         to perform network wide validation of the SRv6 SID block
>      >         provisioning and can also help in automation of the security
>      >         aspects described in
>      >
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >     [CB] If an ISIS speaker is not expected to do anything with B
>     and N,
>      >     then I think the text in draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions
>     needs
>      >     to clarify this.  I have a similar observation about Fun.
>     Length and
>      >     Arg. Length in the SRv6 SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV .  As far
>     as I can
>      >     tell, none of the endpoint behaviors that are currently
>     specified to
>      >     be carried in ISIS End, End.X, and LAN End.X SIDs sub-TLVs
>     uses an
>      >     Argument, so there is never a case where an SRv6 SID Structure
>      >     Sub-Sub-TLV should have a non-zero value for Arg. Length. What
>      >     should an ISIS speaker do if it receives a non-zero value of the
>      >     Arg. Length for an endpoint behavior that doesn't use an
>     argument?
>      >     Are there any use cases envisioned where an ISIS speaker needs to
>      >     know the Arg. Length ? ____
>      >
>      >     */[KT] The behaviors currently listed in the draft do not have an
>      >     argument nor is the use of B and N required for them. We cannot
>      >     preclude a future use-case or extension where such behaviors
>      >     introduced are also applicable to ISIS. So IMHO ruling such
>     aspects
>      >     out might not be the right thing to do from a protocol
>     extensibility
>      >     perspective.____/*
>      >
>      >     */__ __/*
>      >
>      >     */Thanks,____/*
>      >
>      >     */Ketan/*____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >         Thanks,____
>      >
>      >         Ketan____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         *From:*Chris Bowers <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
>      >         <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>>
>      >         *Sent:* 02 March 2020 23:39
>      >         *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>
>      >         <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>>
>      >         *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>      >         <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>      >         <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>>; lsr@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
>      >         <mailto:lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG
>     List <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>      >         <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>>;
>      >         draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>      >         <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
>      >       
>       <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>>;
>      >         Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>
>      >         <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>>;
>     Bruno Decraene
>      >         <bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>>
>      >         *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>     locator
>      >         node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
>      >         draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         Ketan,____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         Based on current documents, allocating all SRv6 locators
>     used in
>      >         a domain from a single block is optional.____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         However, assuming for the moment that a network operator has
>      >         chosen to allocate all SRv6 locators used in a domain from a
>      >         single block, so that there is a well-defined value of B
>     and N
>      >         across a domain, what is the use of having a router advertise
>      >         its own understanding of these two values?  And what is a
>      >         receiver supposed to do with this information?____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         Thanks,____
>      >
>      >         Chris____
>      >
>      >         ____
>      >
>      >         On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:23 AM
>     <bruno.decraene@orange.com <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>
>      >         <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>> wrote:____
>      >
>      >             Hi Ketan,____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Thanks fort the follow up.____
>      >
>      >             Clarification inline [Bruno]____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             *From**:*Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>     [mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>
>      >             <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>]
>      >             *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:11 AM
>      >             *To:* DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant);
>      >             Chris Bowers
>      >             *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List;
>      >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming; Peter Psenak
>      >             (ppsenak)
>      >             *Subject:* RE: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>      >             locator node in
>     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>      >             and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Hi Bruno,____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             I believe the description and usage of Locator is
>     very well
>      >             described and covered in the net-pgm draft as also the
>      >             corresponding IGP extensions. Is the question is more
>     about
>      >             the “block” part of it (what is not in the block part
>     is in
>      >             the node part as per the text in the net-pgm draft)?____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             The “block” is again not a new thing. Please check the
>      >             following:____
>      >
>      >             Under
>      >
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#section-5
>      >             … look for “block”____
>      >
>      > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-2 … look under
>      >             SRGB for SRv6____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             [Bruno]____
>      >
>      >             To clarify, my question was not specific to “block” but
>      >             related to the usage, by the receiver, of the following
>      >             piece of information:____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >                    LB Length: SRv6 SID Locator Block length____
>      >
>      >                    LN Length: SRv6 SID Locator Node length____
>      >
>      >                    Fun. Length: SRv6 SID Function length____
>      >
>      >                    Arg. Length: SRv6 SID Arguments length____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             So perhaps I don’t get Chris’s point and would wait
>     for him
>      >             to clarify.____
>      >
>      >             [Bruno] I’ll leave this to Chris.____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Thanks,____
>      >
>      >             Ketan____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             *From:*Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>
>      >             <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>>> *On Behalf Of
>      >             *bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com
>     <mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>
>      >             *Sent:* 28 February 2020 14:34
>      >             *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>      >             <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>      >             <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>>; Chris Bowers
>      >             <chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>>>
>      >             *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List
>      >             <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>>;
>      >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>      >             <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
>      >           
>       <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>>>;
>      >             Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>
>      >             <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>>
>      >             *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>      >             locator node in
>     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
>      >             and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Hi Ketan,____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             *From:*Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of
>      >             *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
>      >             *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 6:30 AM____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Hi Chris,____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             I agree with Peter and I would suggest to drop LSR since
>      >             this is not a protocol specific thing.____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             I believe the text in
>      >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming clears
>     says what
>      >             locator block and locator node are. What more details
>     do you
>      >             think are required?____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             [Bruno] Speaking as an individual, the draft could
>     possibly
>      >             clarify the usage of these information/fields by the
>      >             receiver. Possibly using the same name/term (e.g.
>     SRv6 SID
>      >             Locator Block length) to ease the references between both
>      >             drafts.____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Thanks,____
>      >
>      >             --Bruno____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Thanks,____
>      >
>      >             Ketan____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             *From:*Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>
>      >             <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>>> *On Behalf Of *Chris Bowers
>      >             *Sent:* 27 February 2020 22:46
>      >             *To:* lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List
>      >             <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>>
>      >             *Cc:* Peter Psenak (ppsenak) <ppsenak@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>
>      >             <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>>
>      >             *Subject:* [Lsr] clarification of locator block and
>     locator
>      >             node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and
>      >             draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             SPRING and LSR WGs,____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             I think that we need a much more detailed description
>     of the
>      >             locator block and locator node in either
>      >             draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or
>      >             draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.  See original email
>      >             below.____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             Thanks,____
>      >
>      >             Chris____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak
>      >             <ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>
>     <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>>> wrote:____
>      >
>      >                 Hi Chris,
>      >
>      >                 On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
>      >                  > LSR WG,
>      >                  >
>      >                  > Section 9 of
>     draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05
>      >                 defines the  SRv6
>      >                  > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it
>     defines
>      >                 encoding for the
>      >                  > locator block length and the locator node length.
>      >                 The text refers to
>      >                  > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the
>      >                 definition of these
>      >                  > concepts.
>      >                  >
>      >                  > As far as I can tell, the only reference to
>     locator
>      >                 block and locator
>      >                  > node in
>     draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10
>      >                 is section 3.1
>      >                  > which has the following text:
>      >                  >
>      >                  >     A locator may be represented as B:N where B is
>      >                 the SRv6 SID block
>      >                  >     (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the
>      >                 operator) and N is the
>      >                  >     identifier of the parent node
>     instantiating the
>      >                 SID...
>      >                  >
>      >                  > I think that we need a much more detailed
>     description
>      >                 of the locator
>      >                  > block and locator node.
>      >
>      >                 sure, but that would be in the
>      >                 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
>      >                 draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are
>     not a
>      >                 protocol
>      >                 specific constructs.
>      >
>      >                 thanks,
>      >                 Peter
>      >
>      >                  >
>      >                  > Thanks,
>      >                  >
>      >                  > Chris
>      >                  > ____
>      >
>      >           
>       _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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>     autorisation. Si
>      >             vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le
>     signaler____
>      >
>      >             a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces
>     jointes.
>      >             Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
>     d'alteration,____
>      >
>      >             Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete
>      >             altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.____
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>      >             privileged information that may be protected by law;____
>      >
>      >             they should not be distributed, used or copied without
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>      >             Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
>      >             informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne
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>      >
>      >             pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans
>     autorisation. Si
>      >             vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le
>     signaler____
>      >
>      >             a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces
>     jointes.
>      >             Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
>     d'alteration,____
>      >
>      >             Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete
>      >             altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.____
>      >
>      >             ____
>      >
>      >             This message and its attachments may contain
>     confidential or
>      >             privileged information that may be protected by law;____
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>      >             they should not be distributed, used or copied without
>      >             authorisation.____
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>      >             If you have received this email in error, please
>     notify the
>      >             sender and delete this message and its attachments.____
>      >
>      >             As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for
>     messages
>      >             that have been modified, changed or falsified.____
>      >
>      >             Thank you.____
>      >
> 


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:59:04 -0400
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Subject: [spring] Updated draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm
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--000000000000c63af805a1af1c6a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi WG,

Trust everyone is doing well.

Authors have updated the SR PM draft for TWAMP (RFC 5357) and moved the
STAMP (now RFC 8762) extensions into a separate draft, as the SR PM
extensions are for two different RFCs and protocols. This was also a
feedback from the WG.

Name: draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
Title: Performance Measurement Using TWAMP Light for Segment Routing
Networks
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08

Name: draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm
Title: Performance Measurement Using STAMP for Segment Routing Networks
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm

Many thanks for your feedback on this work.
Welcome your additional review comments and suggestions.

Thanks,
Rakesh (for authors)

--000000000000c63af805a1af1c6a
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=
=3D"2">Hi WG,</font></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,se=
rif"><font size=3D"2"><br></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Trust everyone is doing well.<br></font>=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2=
"><br></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><f=
ont size=3D"2">Authors have updated the SR PM draft for TWAMP (RFC 5357) an=
d moved the STAMP (now RFC 8762) extensions into a separate draft, as the S=
R PM extensions are for two different RFCs and protocols. This was also a f=
eedback from the WG.<br></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family=
:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2"><br></font></span></div><div><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=
=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Name:<span class=3D"gmail-A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"gmail-Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm=
</font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=
=3D"2">Title:<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span><span class=3D"gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</=
span>Performance Measurement Using TWAMP Light for Segment Routing Networks=
</font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=
=3D"2">URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-sprin=
g-twamp-srpm-08.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spri=
ng-twamp-srpm-08.txt</a></font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:geo=
rgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm/">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm/</a></font></spa=
n></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:=
normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decorati=
on:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Htmlize=
d:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spr=
ing-twamp-srpm-08">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-sr=
pm-08</a></font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"g=
mail-Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm</a></font></span></div><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight=
:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraf=
t-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ga=
ndhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08</a></font></span></div><span style=3D"font-family=
:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2"><br></font></span></div><div><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=
=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Name:<span class=3D"gmail-A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"gmail-Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm=
</font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=
=3D"2">Title:<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span><span class=3D"gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</=
span>Performance Measurement Using STAMP for Segment Routing Networks</font=
></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-de=
coration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">U=
RL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-s=
rpm-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-=
srpm-00.txt</a></font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,seri=
f"><font size=3D"2">Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm/" title=3D"https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm/">https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm/</a></font></span></div><di=
v style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2">Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-=
srpm-00" title=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srp=
m-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00</a></fo=
nt></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-=
decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2"=
>Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/htm=
l/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm" title=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html=
/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm</a></font></span></div><span style=3D"font-=
family:georgia,serif"><font size=3D"2"><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange=
-newline"></font></span></div><div>Many thanks for your feedback on this wo=
rk. <br></div><div>Welcome your additional review comments and suggestions.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Rakesh (for authors)</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></div>

--000000000000c63af805a1af1c6a--


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Thread-Topic: Re:[Teas] [spring] FW: New Version Notificationfordraft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-07.txt
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Subject: Re: [spring] [Teas] FW: New Version Notificationfordraft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-07.txt
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CC: "draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment@ietf.org" <draft-voyer-spring-sr-replication-segment@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>, "Martin Vigoureux (martin.vigoureux@nokia.com)" <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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From nobody Fri Mar 27 09:37:31 2020
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To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
References: <D5A410FF-EEA3-4F01-8147-5E180EE35DE6@chopps.org> <A6B1D2E0-0230-468B-931F-C6C976BDC9DC@cisco.com> <8ef9a49b-0edf-2040-86d6-7c68381352c6@joelhalpern.com> <C060BCFF-49E9-43DE-A816-35509B47033D@cisco.com> <9e2ea3c8-67c4-2442-4ce8-d42cc89a3a0d@joelhalpern.com> <305A5FB1-345F-4207-89BA-9C7F63452F16@cisco.com> <19b840f6-5a1a-32c8-029d-91ae38a58018@joelhalpern.com> <BN6PR11MB1363769DD5EA338553964F54C9CC0@BN6PR11MB1363.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
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Thank you.  That is good enough to proceed regarding my concern.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/27/2020 12:24 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> I think the following editorial change clarifies your point. Please let me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pablo.
> 
> 
> Diff:
> ====
> 
> -> Section 4.16.1 PSP
>      ....
>     The PSP operation is deterministically controlled by the SR Source
>     Node.  A PSP-flavored SID is used by the Source SR Node when it needs
>     to instruct the penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node listed in the
>     SRH to remove the SRH from the IPv6 header.
> 
>     PSP allows, for example, for an egress PE to receive a packet with a
>     segment in the DA of the outer header without any need to process the
>     SRH.
> <NEW>This is useful for example when the SRH contains too many SIDs compared to the egress PE dataplane capability as advertised in the IGP [§8.1]. In such case calculating an SRv6 policy to these nodes needs to account for the availability of the PSP capability upstream to these nodes.</NEW>
> 
>     SR Segment Endpoint Nodes receive the IPv6 packet with the
>     Destination Address field of the IPv6 Header equal to its SID
>     address.  A penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node is one that, as part
>     of the SID processing, copies the last SID from the SRH into the IPv6
>     Destination Address and decrements Segments Left value from one to
>     zero.
>     ....
> 
> -> Section 8.1 IGP
>     The End, End.T and End.X SIDs express topological behaviors and hence
>     are expected to be signaled in the IGP together with the flavors PSP,
>     USP and USD.
> <OLD>The IGP also advertises the support for SRv6 capabilities of the node.</OLD>
> <NEW>The IGP should also advertise the maximum SRv6 SID depth (MSD) capability of the node for each type of SRv6 operation. In particular, the SR source (e.g., H.Encaps), intermediate endpoint (e.g., End, End.X) and final endpoint (e.g., End.DX4, End.DT6) behaviors. These capabilities are factored in by an SR Source Node (or a controller) during the SR Policy computation.</NEW>
>    ...
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
> Sent: martes, 17 de marzo de 2020 18:51
> To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
> 
> Given that the requirement to be able to ignore the routing header predates any of the SRv6 work, a natural reading would be that ignoring the header is something the device can already do.  In normal situations, the savings for not doing a check that simple is very small.
> 
> Having been told the cost was high, with no further explanation, I am forced to assume the historical (unfortunate) behavior that made the cost high.  If that explanation is correct, then it has other implications.  If that is NOT the reason that the cost is high, please state what the reason is for it having a high cost.  We are asking devices to support a special feature (PSP) to achieve the savings.  We owe it to folks to explain why we are asking for such a thing.  (And no, the fact that PSP is optional does not change things.  If PSP matters, then it matters.  If it doesn't matter, then lets drop it.)
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 3/17/2020 1:43 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>> Inline
>>
>> ﻿-----Original Message-----
>> From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>> Date: Monday, 16 March 2020 at 20:23
>> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] Question on
>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>
>>       The changes in section 4.16.1 do improve the clarity.
>>       
>>       Having said that, the text about motivating PSP reads:
>>            PSP allows, for example, for an egress PE to receive a packet
>>            with a segment in the DA of the outer header without any need to
>>            process the	SRH.
>>       is a very weak and confusing explanation.  Given that 8200 requires
>>       nodes to be able to ignore any routing header with SL=0, the text as
>>       written seems to be without benefit.
>>
>> Joel, how do you know whether you can ignore a routing header?
>> I believe that the only option is for the router to process the routing header to check whether the Segments Left value is equal to zero.
>> PSP avoids any routing header processing at the egress PE, as the quoted text above states. Hence the benefit.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pablo.
>>
>>       Yes, I have seen descriptions of
>>       the benefits from others on the list.  But this text is not it.
>>       
>>       If indeed the benefit is a node where any extension header presence
>>       causes much slower processing (as was alluded to by other posters on the
>>       list) then it seems that should be acknowledged in the description.
>>       Doing something slowly is indeed still compliant to 8200.
>>       I have asked that we go a step further, and acknowledge that such nodes
>>       have other limitations and that if we are going to make allowance for
>>       them, we should call out those other issues as well.
>>       
>>       Yours,
>>       Joel
>>       
>>       On 3/16/2020 2:55 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>>       > Hi Joel,
>>       >
>>       > Please check revision 13 of this document that clarifies the PSP section.
>>       >
>>       > About your last point:
>>       > For both SR-MPLS and SRv6, there are restrictions on the path to be used, in particular:
>>       > - the SR policy may only use SIDs instantiated on SR Endpoints.
>>       > - When computing the SR policy, there are additional restrictions to consider, such as the Maximum SID Depth (MSD) capability of nodes in the topology. (for SRv6, see section 4 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions).
>>       >
>>       > Regards,
>>       > Pablo.
>>       >
>>       > -----Original Message-----
>>       > From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>       > Date: Tuesday, 10 March 2020 at 19:26
>>       > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>>       > Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>       > Subject: Re: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>       >
>>       >      Pablo, in your reply below you say that the text in 8200 is "crystal
>>       >      clear".  It requires an interesting lens to find something "crystal
>>       >      clear" about which so many people have expressed so much disagreement.
>>       >      While a lawyer may claim to a judge that text in a contract is crystal
>>       >      clear, it is almost always hyperbole.  That may be useful in other
>>       >      contexts.  It is not useful here.
>>       >
>>       >      As far as I can tell, the text allows the interpretation that the PSP
>>       >      protagonists have reached.  It also allows other interpretations.  In
>>       >      the absence of clarity, I can not claim that PSP biolates 8200.  But it
>>       >      sure as heck is not "crystal clear".
>>       >
>>       >      I also find the articulated use cases for PSP muddy.  And as far as I
>>       >      can tell, if the use cases are accurate, then there is a need for
>>       >      greater clarity in the underlying drafts (NP because I do not want to
>>       >      try call back the base SRH document) about the restrictions on paths
>>       >      that can be used.
>>       >
>>       >      Yours,
>>       >      Joel
>>       >
>>       >      On 3/10/2020 2:13 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
>>       >      > Hi Chris,
>>       >      >
>>       >      > Thanks for going through the document.
>>       >      > The behaviors 4.13 (End.B6.Encaps), 4.14 (End.B6.Encaps.Red) and 4.15 (End.BM) correspond to Binding SIDs [1].
>>       >      >
>>       >      > As a result of 4.13 for example, the packet is encapsulated with a new IPv6 header and an SRH that contains the SR policy associated to the BSID.
>>       >      > Once the new IPv6 header is pushed into the packet, the NET-PGM pseudocode passes this packet to the IPv6 module of the router for transmission.
>>       >      >
>>       >      > Normally the Upper-Layer Header should not be processed on a packet with a BSID, since you have just pushed an SR policy into the packet.
>>       >      > That said, when the ultimate destination is BSID, then the Upper Layer Header processing is the same to End (4.1).
>>       >      >
>>       >      > Hope it clarifies.
>>       >      >
>>       >      > Thanks,
>>       >      > Pablo.
>>       >      >
>>       >      > [1]. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-5
>>       >      >
>>       >      >
>>       >      > -----Original Message-----
>>       >      > From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>       >      > Date: Saturday, 7 March 2020 at 12:50
>>       >      > To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>       >      > Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>>       >      > Subject: [spring] Question on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-12
>>       >      >
>>       >      >      In sections 4.13, (implicitly in 4.14) and 4.15 a set of steps is indicated. As far as I can tell the processing of the IPv6 header chain in all cases is terminated. e.g.,
>>       >      >
>>       >      >      "
>>       >      >         When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.BM
>>       >      >         SID, does:
>>       >      >
>>       >      >        S01. When an SRH is processed {
>>       >      >        S02.   If (Segments Left == 0) {
>>       >      >      ....
>>       >      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>       >      >        S04.   }
>>       >      >        S05.   If (IPv6 Hop Limit <= 1) {
>>       >      >      ....
>>       >      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>       >      >        S07.   }
>>       >      >        S09.   If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {
>>       >      >      ....
>>       >      >                     Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.
>>       >      >        S11.   }
>>       >      >      ....
>>       >      >        S15.   Submit the packet to the MPLS engine for transmission to the
>>       >      >                  topmost label.
>>       >      >        S16. }
>>       >      >      "
>>       >      >
>>       >      >      The text then says:
>>       >      >
>>       >      >         When processing the Upper-layer header of a packet matching a FIB
>>       >      >         entry locally instantiated as an SRv6 End.BM SID, process the packet
>>       >      >         as per Section 4.1.1.
>>       >      >
>>       >      >      Why would I ever be processing the upper-layer header at this point?
>>       >      >
>>       >      >      Thanks,
>>       >      >      Chris.
>>       >      >      _______________________________________________
>>       >      >      spring mailing list
>>       >      >      spring@ietf.org
>>       >      >      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>       >      >
>>       >      >
>>       >      > _______________________________________________
>>       >      > spring mailing list
>>       >      > spring@ietf.org
>>       >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>       >      >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       
>>


From nobody Fri Mar 27 09:44:54 2020
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Subject: Re: [spring] review of draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-01
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

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From nobody Fri Mar 27 10:42:17 2020
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Pablo Camarillo Garvia
                          John Leddy
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Zhenbin Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-27

Abstract:
   The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
   an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
   encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.

   Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
   network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.

   This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
   specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
   interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
   Agreements).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/_stHeNnFZ73JmQogvbPp97v80wk>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt
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Hi all,

We have posted a new revision of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
 containing a clarification with respect to the PSP behavior.=20

Such change has been discussed with Joel in here: https://mailarchive.ietf.=
org/arch/msg/spring/mLfOg4pWJ9Gm58ecg9LqYoyaMqo/

Thanks,
Pablo.

-----Original Message-----
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.or=
g
Sent: viernes, 27 de marzo de 2020 18:42
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15=
.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of =
the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Pablo Camarillo Garvia
                          John Leddy
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Zhenbin Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2020-03-27

Abstract:
   The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
   an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
   encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.

   Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
   network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.

   This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
   specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
   interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
   Agreements).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra=
mming-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing-15


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6DdMVeGkY2R1eXseMpJQwQdKLxQ>
Subject: Re: [spring] review of draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-01
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Hi Bruno,

Thank your very much for the review and the input. Indeed it makes sense to=
 include OPSFv3 as well. I updated the draft accordingly.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-03
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-03

In the meanwhile I went one step further since I am going through the RFC p=
rocess and ask for adoption at OPSAWG and present it also at SPRING. I adde=
d also another field called SrSidType to complement the mplsTopLabelType to=
 not only understand which label protocol assigned the top label, but also =
for which SID type. The SID type brings additional insights into Segment Ro=
uting forwarding behavior which are interesting for LFA applications which =
are hard to troubleshoot without as an example.

I got that idea by looking at the sub-tlv IPFIX code-points for LSP Ping wh=
ere I noticed the distinction between IGP-Prefix and IGP-Adjacency.
https://www.iana.org/assignments/mpls-lsp-ping-parameters/mpls-lsp-ping-par=
ameters.xhtml#sub-tlv-1-16-21

Since mplsTopLabelType represents the MPLS forwarding plane, where I could =
have added all the SID types for all the protocols as well, I went a more g=
eneral approach to use a dedicated field for SID Type. That can be applied =
for MPLS-SR and SRv6 as well. It's debatable which approach would be simple=
r. Feedback more than welcome.=20

If you and Paul could have a look at that as well would be fantastic. Thank=
s a lot.

Best Wishes
Thomas Graf

-----Original Message-----
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.c=
om
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>; paul.aitken@intl.a=
tt.com
Cc: spring@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux (martin.vigoureux@nokia.com) <martin.=
vigoureux@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] review of draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-01

Hi Thomas,
=20
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:20 PM
>=20
> Hi Paul,
>=20
> Many thanks for the review and the feedback. Ack on all. I updated the dr=
aft according to your and other input from the mailing list.
>=20
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-02&am
> p;data=3D02%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cc0971d8a798045b6732408d7
> d23c6d59%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C6372090292834402
> 52&amp;sdata=3DaQVYptB2DOXpxKTMMcgIdiSJt10uCdV0w%2B66%2Bsf9xFY%3D&amp;re
> served=3D0
>=20
> > If the draft is to be accepted by IANA then it needs to be published=20
> > or archived somewhere
>=20
> This was one of the unclarities I had. If I understand you correctly, thi=
s draft needs to be adopted by SPRING working group and published as RFC fo=
r documentation purposes before values can be assigned by IANA. Correct?

https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i=
etf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc7012%23section-7.2&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40s=
wisscom.com%7Cc0971d8a798045b6732408d7d23c6d59%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19=
b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637209029283450210&amp;sdata=3DQQe40VEEqfW0UlypEuEUuoKi7lr=
MKOzN9Sy1U1UM694%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 says:

   "New assignments for MPLS label types are administered by IANA through
   Expert Review [RFC5226], i.e., review by one of a group of experts
   designated by an IETF Area Director.  The group of experts must
   double-check the label type definitions with already-defined label
   types for completeness, accuracy, and redundancy.  The specification
   of new MPLS label types MUST be published using a well-established
   and persistent publication medium."


As far as I know, for the IETF " a well-established and persistent publicat=
ion medium"  mostly translates as RFC (i.e. a draft is not enough). My read=
ing is that any kind of RFC would work, including independent submission. H=
owever, the document would probably benefit from a technical review. I feel=
 that both opsawg and spring would work, I don't have specific preference.


As an individual contributor, I have one question related to:

           | TBD1 | IS-IS Segment Routing |  RFC8667  |

           | TBD2 | OSPF Segment Routing  |  RFC8665  |


Do you want to make the distinction between OSPFv2 and OSPFv3?
OSPFv2 SR-MPLS extensions: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?=
url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc8665&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CTh=
omas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cc0971d8a798045b6732408d7d23c6d59%7C364e5b87c1c74=
20d9beec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637209029283450210&amp;sdata=3DCuvFH47aNfFxvR=
PcZNQWBpmGKpXq1FnhHd6h7jcpQ20%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
OSPFv3 SR-MPLS extensions: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?=
url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc8666&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CTh=
omas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cc0971d8a798045b6732408d7d23c6d59%7C364e5b87c1c74=
20d9beec35d19b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637209029283450210&amp;sdata=3DyAJQyI%2BpBQn2=
6MzSUq2H4hlyEHohhKD%2FUUsJUknvrZY%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

Especially given the current work related to LSP ping: https://eur03.safeli=
nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdra=
ft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-ospfv3-codepoint&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40s=
wisscom.com%7Cc0971d8a798045b6732408d7d23c6d59%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19=
b557a1%7C1%7C0%7C637209029283450210&amp;sdata=3DDivm0em2OYqAzLWYvBQwnnWOYfS=
YKuY1veN69JjKiiM%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

Best wishes,
--Bruno



>=20
> Best Wishes
> Thomas
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aitken, Paul <paul.aitken@intl.att.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 11:10 AM
> To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: review of draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-01
>=20
> Thomas, here's some feedback about draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-0=
1 :
>=20
>=20
> Since Figure 1 is intended to update the "IPFIX Information Element #46"=
=20
> SubRegistry, it should contain the same columns as that registry - ie, Va=
lue, Description, Reference.
>=20
> The ElementID, Abstract Data Type, and Data Type Semantics are already de=
fined in the "IPFIX Information Elements" registry; they are not pertinent =
here.
>=20
> So Figure 1 should be:
>=20
       > -------------------------------------------
       > |Value|      Description      | Reference |
       > |-----------------------------------------|
       > |TBD1 | IS-IS Segment Routing |  RFC8667  |
       > |-----------------------------------------|
       > |TBD2 | OSPF Segment Routing  |  RFC8665  |
       > -------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
> If the draft is to be accepted by IANA then it needs to be published or a=
rchived somewhere, since RFC 7012 (and RFC 5102) say:
>=20
     > The specification of new MPLS label types MUST be published using a
     > well-established and persistent publication medium.
>=20
>=20
> "not believed" in section 3 is not rigorous; the statement must be defini=
te - eg "This document does not add any additional IPFIX security considera=
tions.", or "The same security considerations apply as for the IPFIX Protoc=
ol [RFC7012]."
>=20
>=20
> Surely many of the Normative references are simply Informative? eg I-D.al=
i-spring-sr-traffic-accounting, RFC4364, RFC5036, RFC8277, RFC8660, RFC8665=
, RFC8667.
>=20
>=20
> Typo: "laveraged" in the second paragraph of section 1.
>=20
>=20
> P.

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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-04.txt
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:01:39 +0000
Message-ID: <7ED73EE2-B2DB-4348-9CB7-FE6D955BCE57@cisco.com>
References: <158558620808.5984.16231944366704154620@ietfa.amsl.com>
In-Reply-To: <158558620808.5984.16231944366704154620@ietfa.amsl.com>
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From: "Aitken, Paul" <paul.aitken@intl.att.com>
To: "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com" <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>
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Thread-Topic: review of draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-01
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Subject: Re: [spring] review of draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-01
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Thomas,

I've highlighted lots of small changes, with other comments inline:


Abstract:

   This document introduces additional code points in the mplsTopLabelType =
IPFIX
   Information Element for IS-IS, OSPFv2, and OSPFv3 MPLS Segment
   Routing (SR) extensions, and a new SID type Information Element to enabl=
e Segment
   Routing label and segment type information in IP Flow Information
   Export (IPFIX).


1.  Introduction

   Besides existing MPLS control plane protocols such as BGP-4
   [RFC8277], LDP [RFC5036] and BGP VPN [RFC4364], three new routing-
   protocols, OSPFv2 Extensions [RFC8665], OSPFv3 Extensions [RFC8666]
   and IS-IS Extensions [RFC8667] have been added <where?> to propagate Seg=
ment
   Routing labels for the MPLS dataplane [RFC8660].

   Traffic Accounting in Segment Routing Networks
   [I-D.ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting] describes how IPFIX can be
   leveraged to account traffic to MPLS-SR label dimensions within a
   Segment Routing domain.

I preferred that MPLS-SR was spelled out as "MPLS Segment Routing", especia=
lly for those of use who aren't familiar with the terminology. Else, add an=
 xref to wherever MPLS-SR is defined?


2.  MPLS Segment Routing Top Label Type

   A typical use case scenario is to monitor MPLS control plane
   migrations from LDP to IS-IS or OSPF.  By looking at the MPLS label valu=
e
   itself, it is not always clear as to which label protocol it belongs,
   since they could potentially share the same label allocation range.
   This is the case for IGP-Adjacency SID's and LDP as an example.

There's a lot of terminology in the this paragraph. Perhaps the reader isn'=
t familiar with LDP, SID. Consider adding a note at the end of section 1, "=
MPLS specific terminology used in this document is defined in <some RFC>".


3.  Segment Routing Segment Identifier Type

   By introducing a new Information Element called SrSidType, which
   contains the Segment Routing Segment Identifier type according to
   Segment Routing Architecture [RFC8402], we get the intended Segment
   Routing forwarding behaviour in the forwarding plane.

This suggests that the forwarding behaviour is dependent on the Information=
 Element. Consider, "allows the Segment Routing forwarding behaviour to be =
exported in IPFIX" ?


Figure 2

  Description: This field identifies the Segment Routing Identifier Type of=
 the top-of-stack.


Consider, "MPLS top-of-stack label", or similar - else there's nothing to c=
onstrain this to MPLS.


Figure 3

Consider reserving the zero value for "Unknown", for use when the SID type =
cannot be determined and for cases where the a flow record containing a SrS=
idType field is used for non MPLS traffic.


7.2.  Informative References

Note that this draft would be blocked until all the I-Ds become RFCs since =
it couldn't be published while citing WIP docs.


Check the nits:


  =3D=3D The document doesn't use any RFC 2119 keywords, yet has text resem=
bling
     RFC 2119 boilerplate text.

  -- Possible downref: Non-RFC (?) normative reference: ref. 'IANA-IPFIX-IE=
46'

  ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 5102 (Obsoleted by RFC 7012)

P.


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body>
Thomas,<br>
<br>
I've highlighted lots of small changes, with other comments inline:<br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
<br>
<tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; This document introduces additional code points in the <b>=
<font color=3D"#000088">mplsTopLabelType IPFIX</font></b></tt><b><font colo=
r=3D"#000088"><tt><br>
</tt></font></b><tt><b><font color=3D"#000088">&nbsp;&nbsp; Information Ele=
ment</font></b> for IS-IS, OSPFv2,
<font color=3D"#000088">and</font> OSPFv3 MPLS Segment</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Routing (SR) extensions, and a new SID type Informati=
on Element to enable Segment</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Routing label and segment type information in IP Flow=
 Information</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Export (IPFIX).</tt><br>
<br>
<br>
1.&nbsp; Introduction<br>
<tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Besides existing MPLS control plane protocols such as=
 BGP-4</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC8277], LDP [RFC5036] and BGP VPN [RFC4364], three=
 new routing-</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; protocols, OSPFv2 Extensions [RFC8665], OSPFv3 Extens=
ions [RFC8666]</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; and IS-IS Extensions [RFC8667] <b><font color=3D"#000=
0cc">have</font></b> been added
<b><font color=3D"#0000cc">&lt;where?&gt;</font></b> to propagate Segment</=
tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Routing labels for the MPLS dataplane [RFC8660].</tt>=
<br>
<br>
<tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Traffic Accounting in Segment Routing Networks</tt><tt><br=
>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ali-spring-sr-traffic-accounting] describes how =
IPFIX can be</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; leveraged to account traffic to </tt><b><tt><font col=
or=3D"#0000cc">MPLS-SR</font></tt></b><tt> label dimensions within a</tt><t=
t><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Segment Routing domain.</tt><br>
<br>
I preferred that MPLS-SR was spelled out as &quot;<span class=3D"delete">MP=
LS Segment Routing&quot;, especially
</span><span class=3D"delete">for those of use who aren't familiar with the=
 terminology. Else, add an xref to wherever MPLS-SR is defined?<br>
<br>
<br>
2.&nbsp; MPLS Segment Routing Top Label Type<br>
<br>
<tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; A typical use case scenario is to monitor MPLS control pla=
ne</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; migrations from LDP to IS-IS or OSPF.&nbsp; By lookin=
g at the <b><font color=3D"#0000cc">MPLS</font></b> label value</tt><tt><br=
>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; itself, it is not always clear as to which label prot=
ocol it belongs,</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; since they could potentially share the same label all=
ocation range.</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the case for IGP-Adjacency SID's and LDP as a=
n example.</tt><tt><br>
</tt></span><br>
There's a lot of terminology in the this paragraph. Perhaps the reader isn'=
t familiar with LDP, SID. Consider adding a note at the end of section 1, &=
quot;MPLS specific terminology used in this document is defined in &lt;some=
 RFC&gt;&quot;.<br>
<br>
<br>
3.&nbsp; Segment Routing Segment Identifier Type<br>
<br>
<tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; By introducing a new <b><font color=3D"#0000cc">Informatio=
n Element</font></b> called SrSidType, which&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; contains the Segment Routing Segment Identifier type =
according to&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </tt>
<tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Segment Routing <b><font color=3D"#0000cc">Architectu=
re</font></b> [RFC8402],
<font color=3D"#cc00cc">we get the intended Segment&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </fon=
t></tt><font color=3D"#cc00cc"><tt><br>
</tt><tt>&nbsp;&nbsp; Routing forwarding behaviour in the forwarding plane.=
</tt></font><tt><br>
</tt><br>
This suggests that the forwarding behaviour is dependent on the Information=
 Element. Consider, &quot;allows the Segment Routing forwarding behaviour t=
o be exported in IPFIX&quot; ?<br>
<br>
<br>
Figure 2<br>
<br>
<tt>&nbsp; Description: This field identifies the Segment Routing Identifie=
r Type of the
<font color=3D"#cc00cc">top-of-stack</font>.<br>
<br>
<br>
</tt>Consider, &quot;MPLS top-of-stack label&quot;, or similar - else there=
's nothing to constrain this to MPLS.<br>
<br>
<br>
Figure 3<br>
<br>
Consider reserving the zero value for &quot;Unknown&quot;, for use when the=
 SID type cannot be determined and for cases where the a flow record contai=
ning a
<span class=3D"insert">SrSidType</span> field is used for non MPLS traffic.=
<br>
<br>
<br>
7.2.&nbsp; Informative References<br>
<br>
Note that this draft would be blocked until all the I-Ds become RFCs since =
it couldn't be published while citing WIP docs.<br>
<br>
<br>
Check the nits:<br>
<pre>
&nbsp; =3D=3D The document doesn't use any RFC 2119 keywords, yet has text =
resembling
     RFC 2119 boilerplate text.

  -- Possible downref: Non-RFC (?) normative reference: ref. 'IANA-IPFIX-IE=
46'

  ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 5102 (Obsoleted by RFC 7012)</pre>
<br>
P.<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support & Flex Alg support ? and comparison and contrast of those two steering strategies
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Does SRv6 support SR-TE and flex Alg?


Since SRv6 supports native traffic steering with SRH with end prefix sid
and end.x adjacency sid you can achieve the basic steering and ECMP
capability with prefix sid lose or strict hop by hop with every node
specified in SRH SL.

I want to confirm that SRv6 fully supports all of the  SR-TE capabilities
available with SR-MPLS with static lose or strict paths and coloring of vpn
flows.

>From the SR policy draft I did see that section 4 lists segment types and
does appear to support SRv6 sid.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06

4 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06#section-4>.
Segment Types

   A Segment-List is an ordered set of segments represented as <S1, S2,
   ... Sn> where S1 is the first segment.

   Based on the desired dataplane, either the MPLS label stack or the
   SRv6 SRH is built from the Segment-List.  However, the Segment-List
   itself can be specified using different segment-descriptor types and
   the following are currently defined:


Flex Alg - SRv6 support?

Flex Alg is orthogonal to SR TE as it provides IGP extensions for
constrained SPF versus traditional RSVP or SR-TE providing the extensions
for cSPF - basically another method of steering which as well is very
powerful tool for operators.

It does appear SRv6 supports flex Alg draft below.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-06

Abstract

IGP protocols traditionally compute best paths over the network based
   on the IGP metric assigned to the links.  Many network deployments
   use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic Engineering to
   enforce traffic over a path that is computed using different metrics
   or constraints than the shortest IGP path.  This document proposes a
   solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute constraint based
   paths over the network.  This document also specifies a way of using
   Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators to steer packets
   along the constraint-based paths.



What are the benefits of using SR-TE over flex Alg and vice versa?

Also can SR-TE use flex Alg steered paths as the dynamic cSPF paths?

Can SR-TE use and specify flex Alg to be used for traffic steering?


Kind regards


Gyan
Verizon
Cell 301 502-1347
-- 

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

--0000000000003ba19205a219725d
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<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Does SRv6 support SR-TE and f=
lex Alg?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">Since SRv6 supports native traffic steering with SRH with end =
prefix sid and end.x adjacency sid you can achieve the basic steering and E=
CMP capability with prefix sid lose or strict hop by hop with every node sp=
ecified in SRH SL.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I wan=
t to confirm that SRv6 fully supports all of the =C2=A0SR-TE capabilities a=
vailable with SR-MPLS with static lose or strict paths and coloring of vpn =
flows.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">From the SR polic=
y draft I did see that section 4 lists segment types and does appear to sup=
port SRv6 sid.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><a h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy=
-06">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-0=
6</a></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font=
-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><span class=
=3D"h2" style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h2 style=
=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-4" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-polic=
y-06#section-4" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none">4</a>.  Segment =
Types</h2></span>

   A Segment-List is an ordered set of segments represented as &lt;S1, S2,
   ... Sn&gt; where S1 is the first segment.

   Based on the desired dataplane, either the MPLS label stack or the
   SRv6 SRH is built from the Segment-List.  However, the Segment-List
   itself can be specified using different segment-descriptor types and
   the following are currently defined:</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">Flex Alg - SRv6 support?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">Flex Alg is orthogonal to SR TE as it provides IGP e=
xtensions for constrained SPF versus traditional RSVP or SR-TE providing th=
e extensions for cSPF - basically another method of steering which as well =
is very powerful tool for operators. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">It does appear SRv6 supports flex Alg draft below.</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-06">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-06</a></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Abstract=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><pre style=3D"font-s=
ize:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">IGP protocols traditionally compu=
te best paths over the network based
   on the IGP metric assigned to the links.  Many network deployments
   use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic Engineering to
   enforce traffic over a path that is computed using different metrics
   or constraints than the shortest IGP path.  This document proposes a
   solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute constraint based
   paths over the network.  This document also specifies a way of using
   Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators to steer packets
   along the constraint-based paths.</pre></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">What are the benefits of usi=
ng SR-TE over flex Alg and vice versa?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">Also can SR-TE use flex Alg steered paths as the dynamic cSP=
F paths?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Can SR-TE use a=
nd specify flex Alg to be used for traffic steering?</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind regards=C2=A0=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">Gyan</div><div dir=3D"auto">Verizon=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Cell =
301 502-1347</div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-sm=
artmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"1=
" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mi=
shra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000=
000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</fo=
nt></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"ge=
orgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"=
1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georg=
ia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=
=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:g=
yan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></=
font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000003ba19205a219725d--


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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: [spring] Status of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15 (Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt)
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Folks,

May I ask what's the status of this I-D, and what are the next steps? 
Another WGLC? Ship to the IESG?

Thanks,
Fernando




On 27/3/20 14:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.
> 
>          Title           : SRv6 Network Programming
>          Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                            Pablo Camarillo Garvia
>                            John Leddy
>                            Daniel Voyer
>                            Satoru Matsushima
>                            Zhenbin Li
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15.txt
> 	Pages           : 39
> 	Date            : 2020-03-27
> 
> Abstract:
>     The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or
>     an application to specify a packet packet processing program by
>     encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header.
> 
>     Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the
>     network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet.
> 
>     This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and
>     specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of
>     interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level
>     Agreements).
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/
> 
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-15
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 


-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
References: <CABNhwV2RVoRqd9HPRSHMarFvmL6cJayq-igbLOSpHtcUDWkXPw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support & Flex Alg support ? and comparison and contrast of those two steering strategies
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Hi Gyan,

let me comment on the flex-algo aspect. Please see inline:

On 30/03/2020 23:50, Gyan Mishra wrote:
> 
> Does SRv6 support SR-TE and flex Alg?

yes, it does support both.

> 
> 
> Since SRv6 supports native traffic steering with SRH with end prefix sid 
> and end.x adjacency sid you can achieve the basic steering and ECMP 
> capability with prefix sid lose or strict hop by hop with every node 
> specified in SRH SL.
> 
> I want to confirm that SRv6 fully supports all of the  SR-TE 
> capabilities available with SR-MPLS with static lose or strict paths and 
> coloring of vpn flows.
> 
>  From the SR policy draft I did see that section 4 lists segment types 
> and does appear to support SRv6 sid.
> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06
> 
> 
>     4
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06#section-4>.
>     Segment Types
> 
> 
> 
>     A Segment-List is an ordered set of segments represented as <S1, S2,
>     ... Sn> where S1 is the first segment.
> 
>     Based on the desired dataplane, either the MPLS label stack or the
>     SRv6 SRH is built from the Segment-List.  However, the Segment-List
>     itself can be specified using different segment-descriptor types and
>     the following are currently defined:
> 
> 
> Flex Alg - SRv6 support?

yes.

> 
> Flex Alg is orthogonal to SR TE as it provides IGP extensions for 
> constrained SPF versus traditional RSVP or SR-TE providing the 
> extensions for cSPF - basically another method of steering which as well 
> is very powerful tool for operators.
> 
> It does appear SRv6 supports flex Alg draft below.

yes.

> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-06
> 
> Abstract
> 
> IGP protocols traditionally compute best paths over the network based
>     on the IGP metric assigned to the links.  Many network deployments
>     use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic Engineering to
>     enforce traffic over a path that is computed using different metrics
>     or constraints than the shortest IGP path.  This document proposes a
>     solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute constraint based
>     paths over the network.  This document also specifies a way of using
>     Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators to steer packets
>     along the constraint-based paths.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the benefits of using SR-TE over flex Alg and vice versa?

you can think of them as different tools in your SR-TE tool set. You 
pick them as you need them. They can be used independently in parallel 
or can even be combined together to give you even more flexibility.

The principal difference is that SR-TE provisions point-to-point path(s) 
between two end-points, while flex-algo provides any to any paths 
between set of participating nodes.

> 
> Also can SR-TE use flex Alg steered paths as the dynamic cSPF paths?

yes

> 
> Can SR-TE use and specify flex Alg to be used for traffic steering?

yes

thanks,
Peter

> 
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> 
> Gyan
> Verizon
> Cell 301 502-1347
> -- 
> 
> Gyan  Mishra
> 
> Network Engineering & Technology
> 
> Verizon
> 
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
> 
> Phone: 301 502-1347
> 
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
> 
> 
> 


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To: Peter Psenak <ppsenak=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support & Flex Alg support ? and comparison and contrast of those two steering strategies
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support & Flex Alg support ? and comparison and contrast of those two steering strategies
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support & Flex Alg support ? and comparison and contrast of those two steering strategies
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Thank you both for your feedback.  That really helps a lot and clarifies.

So flex-algo can be used with SR-TE as part of the policy specifying a
delay metric and also be used as part of the IGP flex algo cSPF.

Their might be some slight nuances but overall as far as features for both
SR-MPLS & SRv6 the SR-TE policy would require binding SID and have
similarities with lose or strict with prefix-sid or ad-sid specified
correct and all same features and functionality.  Correct?

Also for inter-as or inter-domain SR -  for both SR-MPLS or SRv6  the SR-TE
w/ binding sid could be used as well in place of traditional BGP-LU for
inter-as or csc.  Correct?

So operators have the option to stay with inter-as BGP-LU or go with SR-TE
which is more attractive and powerful with simplicity.

Kind regards

Gyan

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:15 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Gyan,
>
> To add to what Peter has clarified, SR Policy architecture also supports
> SRv6 (as you've pointed out in the references) - loose and strict paths as
> well as steering for colored BGP routes.
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Peter Psenak
> Sent: 31 March 2020 13:42
> To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support & Flex Alg support ? and
> comparison and contrast of those two steering strategies
>
> Hi Gyan,
>
> let me comment on the flex-algo aspect. Please see inline:
>
> On 30/03/2020 23:50, Gyan Mishra wrote:
> >
> > Does SRv6 support SR-TE and flex Alg?
>
> yes, it does support both.
>
> >
> >
> > Since SRv6 supports native traffic steering with SRH with end prefix
> > sid and end.x adjacency sid you can achieve the basic steering and
> > ECMP capability with prefix sid lose or strict hop by hop with every
> > node specified in SRH SL.
> >
> > I want to confirm that SRv6 fully supports all of the  SR-TE
> > capabilities available with SR-MPLS with static lose or strict paths
> > and coloring of vpn flows.
> >
> >  From the SR policy draft I did see that section 4 lists segment types
> > and does appear to support SRv6 sid.
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-0
> > 6
> >
> >
> >     4
> >     <
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06#section-4
> >.
> >     Segment Types
> >
> >
> >
> >     A Segment-List is an ordered set of segments represented as <S1, S2,
> >     ... Sn> where S1 is the first segment.
> >
> >     Based on the desired dataplane, either the MPLS label stack or the
> >     SRv6 SRH is built from the Segment-List.  However, the Segment-List
> >     itself can be specified using different segment-descriptor types and
> >     the following are currently defined:
> >
> >
> > Flex Alg - SRv6 support?
>
> yes.
>
> >
> > Flex Alg is orthogonal to SR TE as it provides IGP extensions for
> > constrained SPF versus traditional RSVP or SR-TE providing the
> > extensions for cSPF - basically another method of steering which as
> > well is very powerful tool for operators.
> >
> > It does appear SRv6 supports flex Alg draft below.
>
> yes.
>
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-06
> >
> > Abstract
> >
> > IGP protocols traditionally compute best paths over the network based
> >     on the IGP metric assigned to the links.  Many network deployments
> >     use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic Engineering to
> >     enforce traffic over a path that is computed using different metrics
> >     or constraints than the shortest IGP path.  This document proposes a
> >     solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute constraint based
> >     paths over the network.  This document also specifies a way of using
> >     Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators to steer packets
> >     along the constraint-based paths.
> >
> >
> >
> > What are the benefits of using SR-TE over flex Alg and vice versa?
>
> you can think of them as different tools in your SR-TE tool set. You pick
> them as you need them. They can be used independently in parallel or can
> even be combined together to give you even more flexibility.
>
> The principal difference is that SR-TE provisions point-to-point path(s)
> between two end-points, while flex-algo provides any to any paths between
> set of participating nodes.
>
> >
> > Also can SR-TE use flex Alg steered paths as the dynamic cSPF paths?
>
> yes
>
> >
> > Can SR-TE use and specify flex Alg to be used for traffic steering?
>
> yes
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
> >
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> >
> > Gyan
> > Verizon
> > Cell 301 502-1347
> > --
> >
> > Gyan  Mishra
> >
> > Network Engineering & Technology
> >
> > Verizon
> >
> > Silver Spring, MD 20904
> >
> > Phone: 301 502-1347
> >
> > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>


-- 

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you both for your feedback.=C2=A0 T=
hat really helps a lot and clarifies.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div=
><div>So flex-algo can be used with SR-TE as part of the policy specifying =
a delay metric and also be used as part of the IGP flex algo cSPF.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Their might be some slight nuances but overall as far as f=
eatures for both SR-MPLS &amp; SRv6 the SR-TE policy would require binding =
SID and have similarities=C2=A0with lose or strict with prefix-sid or ad-si=
d specified correct and all same features and functionality.=C2=A0 Correct?=
</div><div><br></div><div>Also for inter-as or inter-domain SR -=C2=A0 for =
both SR-MPLS or SRv6=C2=A0 the SR-TE w/ binding sid could be used as well i=
n place of traditional BGP-LU for inter-as or csc.=C2=A0 Correct?</div><div=
><br></div><div>So operators have the option to stay with inter-as BGP-LU o=
r go with SR-TE which is more attractive and powerful with simplicity.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Kind regards</div><div><=
br></div><div>Gyan</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:15 AM Ketan Talauli=
kar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keta=
nt@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">Hi Gyan,<br>
<br>
To add to what Peter has clarified, SR Policy architecture also supports SR=
v6 (as you&#39;ve pointed out in the references) - loose and strict paths a=
s well as steering for colored BGP routes.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Ketan<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Peter Psenak<br>
Sent: 31 March 2020 13:42<br>
To: Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt;; SPRING WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] SRV6 - SR-TE support &amp; Flex Alg support ? and com=
parison and contrast of those two steering strategies<br>
<br>
Hi Gyan,<br>
<br>
let me comment on the flex-algo aspect. Please see inline:<br>
<br>
On 30/03/2020 23:50, Gyan Mishra wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Does SRv6 support SR-TE and flex Alg?<br>
<br>
yes, it does support both.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Since SRv6 supports native traffic steering with SRH with end prefix <=
br>
&gt; sid and end.x adjacency sid you can achieve the basic steering and <br=
>
&gt; ECMP capability with prefix sid lose or strict hop by hop with every <=
br>
&gt; node specified in SRH SL.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I want to confirm that SRv6 fully supports all of the =C2=A0SR-TE <br>
&gt; capabilities available with SR-MPLS with static lose or strict paths <=
br>
&gt; and coloring of vpn flows.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 From the SR policy draft I did see that section 4 lists segment =
types <br>
&gt; and does appear to support SRv6 sid.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routi=
ng-policy-0" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-0</a><br>
&gt; 6<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-spring-segment-routing-policy-06#section-4" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-poli=
cy-06#section-4</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Types<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Segment-List is an ordered set of segments repres=
ented as &lt;S1, S2,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0... Sn&gt; where S1 is the first segment.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Based on the desired dataplane, either the MPLS lab=
el stack or the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 SRH is built from the Segment-List.=C2=A0 Howe=
ver, the Segment-List<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0itself can be specified using different segment-des=
criptor types and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the following are currently defined:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Flex Alg - SRv6 support?<br>
<br>
yes.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Flex Alg is orthogonal to SR TE as it provides IGP extensions for <br>
&gt; constrained SPF versus traditional RSVP or SR-TE providing the <br>
&gt; extensions for cSPF - basically another method of steering which as <b=
r>
&gt; well is very powerful tool for operators.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It does appear SRv6 supports flex Alg draft below.<br>
<br>
yes.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-06" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l=
sr-flex-algo-06</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Abstract<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; IGP protocols traditionally compute best paths over the network based<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the IGP metric assigned to the links.=C2=A0 Many=
 network deployments<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic =
Engineering to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enforce traffic over a path that is computed using =
different metrics<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or constraints than the shortest IGP path.=C2=A0 Th=
is document proposes a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute con=
straint based<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0paths over the network.=C2=A0 This document also sp=
ecifies a way of using<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators =
to steer packets<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0along the constraint-based paths.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What are the benefits of using SR-TE over flex Alg and vice versa?<br>
<br>
you can think of them as different tools in your SR-TE tool set. You pick t=
hem as you need them. They can be used independently in parallel or can eve=
n be combined together to give you even more flexibility.<br>
<br>
The principal difference is that SR-TE provisions point-to-point path(s) be=
tween two end-points, while flex-algo provides any to any paths between set=
 of participating nodes.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Also can SR-TE use flex Alg steered paths as the dynamic cSPF paths?<b=
r>
<br>
yes<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can SR-TE use and specify flex Alg to be used for traffic steering?<br=
>
<br>
yes<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Kind regards<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Gyan<br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt; Cell 301 502-1347<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Network Engineering &amp; Technology<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Verizon<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Silver Spring, MD 20904<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Phone: 301 502-1347<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@ve=
rizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font=
><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif=
">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0=
</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=
=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502=
-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" f=
ace=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" =
target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>

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