From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 1 10:40:23 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19092 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id BDEA2C6A48; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA1na4yQ; Mon, 1 Oct 01 10:37:06 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA14012 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14008 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 04930C68FF; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc7143.unige.ch(129.194.71.43) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAWfaOUA; Mon, 1 Oct 01 10:22:00 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pc7143.unige.ch) by pc7143.unige.ch with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15o45Q-0006MR-00 for ; Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:30:24 +0200 From: info@ltssg3.epfl.ch To: tcp-impl@lerc.nasa.gov Date: Mon Oct 1 16:30:24 2001 Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: IEEE ICME 2002, Int.Conf.MM & Expo Message-Id: Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Apologies for any duplication of this announcement _____________________________________________ CALL FOR PAPERS: ICME 2002 IEEE International Conference on Multimedia and Expo Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, EPFL, Lausanne, Switzerland August 26-29 2002 GOALS OF THE CONFERENCE International Conference on Multimedia & Expo (ICME) is a major annual international conference organized with the objective of bringing together researchers, developers and practitioners from academia and industry working in all areas of multimedia. ICME serves as a forum for the dissemination of state-of-the-art research, development, and implementations of multimedia systems, technologies and applications. Co-sponsored by four IEEE societies (the Circuits and Systems Society, the Communications Society, the Computer Society and the Signal Processing Society) the third edition of ICME will be held in Lausanne, Switzerland. INSTRUCTIONS AND TOPICS Authors should submit a four-page manuscript in double-column format including authors' names, affiliations and a short abstract. Only electronic submission will be accepted. A sample of the papers presented at the conference will be selected for a possible publication in an upcoming special issue of IEEE Transactions on Multimedia. Topics covered include but are not limited to the following: * Audio, image and/or video processing * Components and technologies for multimedia systems * Human-machine interface and interaction * Multimedia applications * Multimedia hardware architectures * Multimedia communication and networking * Multimedia computing systems * Multimedia content access and distribution * Multimedia databases * Signal processing for media integration * Standards (e.g., MPEG) and related issues * System integration, integration of art and technologies * Virtual reality and computer graphics * Watermarking and security CONFERENCE WEB SITE AND CONTACT Web: http://www.icme2002.org Contact: info@icme02.epfl.ch SPECIAL SESSIONS, TUTORIALS, DEMO/EXHIBITS Proposals for Special Sessions, Tutorials and Demo/Exhibits are also strongly encouraged. Authors are referred to the ICME website to additional information regarding submissions. IMPORTANT DATES Special Session Proposal Due December 1, 2001 Regular Papers Submission Due February 15, 2002 Tutorial Proposal Due March 1, 2002 Demo/Exhibit Proposal Due May 1, 2002 Thierry Pun, Univ. of Geneva, Switzerland Jean-Luc Dugelay, Eurecom, France ICME Publicity co-Chairs PS: feel free to distribute! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe the ICME 2002 information mailing list, e-mail icme2002-request@ltssg3.epfl.ch with "subscribe" in the body. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 2 06:05:36 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA02150 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 7F80CC69AE; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA_UaGZ0; Tue, 2 Oct 01 06:03:12 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id FAA05876 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA05869; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id E31E7640BC; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(211.36.2.197) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA8PaiMb; Tue, 2 Oct 01 05:50:46 -0400 Received: from www ([211.219.21.252]) by ns.webdbbuilder.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA21266; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:19:01 +0900 Message-ID: <036c01c14b13$a416bd20$fc15dbd3@kics.or.kr> Reply-To: "Jae Choon Park" From: "Jae Choon Park" To: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , 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To unsubscribe:ilike2_9_ld@yahoo.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Sun Oct 7 18:13:07 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25765 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 8409D640D6; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAyzaaBr; Sun, 7 Oct 01 18:13:10 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id RAA23521 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA23505 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 3AC2E640C1; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:53:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from duke.poly.edu(128.238.2.92) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA6uaWdo; Sun, 7 Oct 01 17:53:55 -0400 Received: from bradman (53dial38.poly.edu [128.238.4.118]) by duke.poly.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA23736 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:53:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim Moors" To: Subject: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:44:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Stevens wrote in RFC 2001 and p. 311 of TCP Ill. vol.1 that the Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other end was on a different network", but that this was changed with the Reno release of TCP so that slow start was always performed. Does anyone know why Tahoe didn't perform slow start for local communication? Was there a reason for this, or was it just a mistake that was corrected in Reno? Is the following justification valid?: MAC protocols (e.g. Ethernet) often control congestion for link-local communication, making transport layer congestion control unnecessary for local communication. (I searched the archives, and the only discussion I found of this topic was in Mar 1997, where the definition of "local" was queried: local to a LAN, or local to a subnet as defined by the address class. That discussion didn't address WHY there should be no SS for local communication.) Tim Moors ___________________________________ Web: http://uluru.poly.edu/~tmoors/ From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Sun Oct 7 21:32:23 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA26736 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id C51F8640DD; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAvDayQk; Sun, 7 Oct 01 21:30:52 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id VAA02487 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA02483 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 9412AC68F7; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA7ha46v; Sun, 7 Oct 01 21:04:34 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f9814UO04156; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC0FB83.4010901@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:04:03 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Moors Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020903090109030204050308" Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020903090109030204050308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Tim, First, can we move this thread to the TSVWG mailing list? I thought TCPIMPL was closed as a WG, and this is definitely relevant to ongoing work in TSVWG. Tim Moors wrote: > Richard Stevens wrote in RFC 2001 and p. 311 of TCP Ill. vol.1 that the > Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other end was on a > different network", but that this was changed with the Reno release of TCP > so that slow start was always performed. > > Does anyone know why Tahoe didn't perform slow start for local > communication? Slow start is designed to avoid overloading router queues; for a local network, there is (presumably) no router to overload. > Was there a reason for this, or was it just a mistake that > was corrected in Reno? Is the following justification valid?: MAC protocols > (e.g. Ethernet) often control congestion for link-local communication, > making transport layer congestion control unnecessary for local > communication. Ethernet doesn't control congestion. Its backoff deals only with collisions, which shouldn't (or can't?) occur on full-duplex links anyway. > (I searched the archives, and the only discussion I found of this topic was > in Mar 1997, where the definition of "local" was queried: local to a LAN, or > local to a subnet as defined by the address class. That discussion didn't > address WHY there should be no SS for local communication.) This was raised at the Minneapolis IETF in a hallway discussion with Reiner Ludwig and Andrei Gurtov, who posted the attached note to the freebsd-net mailing list; I think Andrei's goal was to find the origin of the code, though. Joe ---------------- --------------020903090109030204050308 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Part%201.1.2" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Part%201.1.2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3HF4q522417; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3HF4qq24199; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF80155B9B; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538) id CD83A37B422; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B31FD2E8039; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-net) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:45 -0700 Delivered-To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Received: from porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI [128.214.48.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CE237B446 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurtov@cs.Helsinki.FI) Received: from saviletto.cs.Helsinki.FI (gurtov@saviletto.cs.Helsinki.FI [128.214.9.225]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11579; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:04:38 +0300 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:04:38 +0300 (EET DST) From: Andrei Gurtov To: Cc: Subject: initial congestion window Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, At the last IETF meeting there were some debates around FreeBSD using a 16-KB initial congestion window in TCP when destination IP address is from the local subnet. Does anybody remember when it was introduced into the code and what kind of ideas were behind? Some reasons were given why it may not be a good idea: -the benefit of not having slow start on LANs is very small, i.e. some milliseconds -it is not a conformant TCP feature, i.e. not allowed by TCP Congestion Control (RFC2581) and is explicitly given in Known TCP Implementation Problems (RFC2525) "2.1 No initial slow start" and "2.3 Uninitialized CWND" -people may have the same subnet mask also over a slow PPP link. In this case the effect of the huge initial window is quite bad, see for example http://www.cs.Helsinki.FI/u/gurtov/papers/effect_of_delays_on_tcp_performance.pdf -in case of congestion on Ethernet, packets queues build up at the network interfaces in hosts and agressive TCP start-up behaviour can further increase congestion losses What are your thoughts on this? Andrei tcp_output.c: int ss_fltsz = 1; SYSCTL_INT(_net_inet_tcp, OID_AUTO, slowstart_flightsize, CTLFLAG_RW, &ss_fltsz, 1, "Slow start flight size"); int ss_fltsz_local = TCP_MAXWIN; /* something large */ SYSCTL_INT(_net_inet_tcp, OID_AUTO, local_slowstart_flightsize, CTLFLAG_RW, &ss_fltsz_local, 1, "Slow start flight size for local networks"); [...] if ( in_localaddr(tp->t_inpcb->inp_faddr) ) tp->snd_cwnd = tp->t_maxseg * ss_fltsz_local; else tp->snd_cwnd = tp->t_maxseg * ss_fltsz; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-net" in the body of the message --------------020903090109030204050308-- From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Sun Oct 7 21:51:11 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA28025 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id EB44AC691C; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA5LaaJE; Sun, 7 Oct 01 21:51:13 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id VAA05317 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05313 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 3CF87C68FC; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frantic-dmz.weston.bsdi.com(206.196.54.22) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA5Ra45C; Sun, 7 Oct 01 21:41:03 -0400 Received: (from dab@localhost) by frantic.weston.bsdi.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f981ekt06809; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:40:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:40:46 -0500 (CDT) From: David Borman Message-Id: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> To: moors@ieee.org, touch@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:04:03 -0700 > From: Joe Touch > Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? ... > Tim Moors wrote: > > > Richard Stevens wrote in RFC 2001 and p. 311 of TCP Ill. vol.1 that the > > Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other end was on a > > different network", but that this was changed with the Reno release of TCP > > so that slow start was always performed. > > > > Does anyone know why Tahoe didn't perform slow start for local > > communication? > > > Slow start is designed to avoid overloading router queues; for a local > network, there is (presumably) no router to overload. I seem to recall that one of the issues was that it has become harder and harder in some network setups to reliably determine whether or not the other host is on the local wire. Bridges, proxy ARP, and VLANs are but a few examples where you actually have a "router" between the hosts, but just by looking at the address/netmask it would appear that they are on the same wire. Failure to do slowstart in these situations leads to the same problems that slowstart was intended to solve. So, by always doing slowstart, you are no longer making any assumptions about the underlying network setup. -David Borman, dab@windriver.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Sun Oct 7 22:48:02 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA29469 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id C138F64194; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAARIaqzy; Sun, 7 Oct 01 22:45:17 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id WAA08519 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA08515 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id F2410C6929; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA4Ia43T; Sun, 7 Oct 01 22:33:57 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f982XrO16020; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 19:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC11076.8010304@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 19:33:26 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Borman Cc: moors@ieee.org, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Borman wrote: >>Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:04:03 -0700 >>From: Joe Touch >>Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? >> > ... > >>Tim Moors wrote: >> >> >>>Richard Stevens wrote in RFC 2001 and p. 311 of TCP Ill. vol.1 that the >>>Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other end was on a >>>different network", but that this was changed with the Reno release of TCP >>>so that slow start was always performed. >>> >>>Does anyone know why Tahoe didn't perform slow start for local >>>communication? >>> >> >>Slow start is designed to avoid overloading router queues; for a local >>network, there is (presumably) no router to overload. >> > > I seem to recall that one of the issues was that it has become harder > and harder in some network setups to reliably determine whether or not > the other host is on the local wire. Bridges, proxy ARP, and VLANs are > but a few examples where you actually have a "router" between the hosts, > but just by looking at the address/netmask it would appear that they are > on the same wire. Failure to do slowstart in these situations leads to > the same problems that slowstart was intended to solve. So, by always > doing slowstart, you are no longer making any assumptions about the > underlying network setup. Bridges don't queue like routers do, so shouldn't need slow start. Proxy ARP and VLANs break the notion of what is local on a few levels; that they break this assumption too is not news. :-) That may be a reason to use them only in a limited and temporary fashion, rather than a reason to assume they are prevalent. The bigger problem is the use of tunnels; it is reasonable to require that not only is the address 'local' but also is attached to a physical (vs virtual) interface. This all does beg the question of how much slow start hurts in the local case, though. In CPU-limited regimes, it's a reason to turn off congestion control, but those regimes (where the CPU load of congestion control is substantial) aren't as common. It may still be a useful assumption for thin clients, but in general the benefit may not be worthwhile. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 03:35:25 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA15904 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id A5EA5C6929; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAANVaWiD; Mon, 8 Oct 01 03:35:26 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id DAA25071 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA25067 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 39582C68F8; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marjan.fesb.hr(161.53.166.3) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAUdaW_A; Mon, 8 Oct 01 03:22:58 -0400 Received: from fesb.hr (demorgan.bit.fesb.hr [161.53.169.245]) by marjan.fesb.hr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10292; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:22:24 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3BC154F2.1010608@fesb.hr> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:25:38 +0200 From: Julije Ozegovic Organization: FESB Split User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en, hr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch Cc: David Borman , moors@ieee.org, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> <3BC11076.8010304@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! Consider also modem gateways. I remember problems using DECstation 5000 workstations running ULTRIX V4.2a rev47 OS on LAN, and Cisco CS500 gateway with V.22bis (2400 b/s) modems attached. Measurement traces from 1995 show that up to 10 (ten) unnecessary retransmissions were generated per segment. This was mainly the consequence of large RWIN regarding the BD product, (and was solved accordingly), but lack of slow start did not help! Julije Ozegovic http://www.fesb.hr/~julije Joe Touch wrote: > > > David Borman wrote: > >>> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:04:03 -0700 >>> From: Joe Touch >>> Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? >>> >> ... >> >>> Tim Moors wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Richard Stevens wrote in RFC 2001 and p. 311 of TCP Ill. vol.1 that the >>>> Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other end was >>>> on a >>>> different network", but that this was changed with the Reno release >>>> of TCP >>>> so that slow start was always performed. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know why Tahoe didn't perform slow start for local >>>> communication? >>> >>> >>> Slow start is designed to avoid overloading router queues; for a >>> local network, there is (presumably) no router to overload. >>> >> >> I seem to recall that one of the issues was that it has become harder >> and harder in some network setups to reliably determine whether or not >> the other host is on the local wire. Bridges, proxy ARP, and VLANs are >> but a few examples where you actually have a "router" between the hosts, >> but just by looking at the address/netmask it would appear that they are >> on the same wire. Failure to do slowstart in these situations leads to >> the same problems that slowstart was intended to solve. So, by always >> doing slowstart, you are no longer making any assumptions about the >> underlying network setup. > > > > Bridges don't queue like routers do, so shouldn't need slow start. > > Proxy ARP and VLANs break the notion of what is local on a few levels; > that they break this assumption too is not news. :-) That may be a > reason to use them only in a limited and temporary fashion, rather than > a reason to assume they are prevalent. > > The bigger problem is the use of tunnels; it is reasonable to require > that not only is the address 'local' but also is attached to a physical > (vs virtual) interface. > > This all does beg the question of how much slow start hurts in the local > case, though. In CPU-limited regimes, it's a reason to turn off > congestion control, but those regimes (where the CPU load of congestion > control is substantial) aren't as common. It may still be a useful > assumption for thin clients, but in general the benefit may not be > worthwhile. > > Joe > > > From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 08:27:54 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA19814 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 36A706419E; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAP5aqKA; Mon, 8 Oct 01 08:26:16 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA09065 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09061 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B08F4C6913; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.dave.sonera.fi(131.177.130.21) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAALWa4oq; Mon, 8 Oct 01 08:09:11 -0400 Received: from gurtoan1-nb.etela.sonera.fi ([131.177.36.107]:1600 "HELO mowet95") by inside.dave.sonera.fi with SMTP id ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:08:14 +0300 From: "Andrei Gurtov" To: "Joe Touch" , "Tim Moors" Cc: , , "Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com" Subject: RE: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:06:07 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3BC0FB83.4010901@isi.edu> Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg-admin@ietf.org [mailto:tsvwg-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Joe > Touch > Sent: 8. lokakuuta 2001 4:04 > To: Tim Moors > Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov; tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? > > > Hi, Tim, > > First, can we move this thread to the TSVWG mailing list? I thought > TCPIMPL was closed as a WG, and this is definitely relevant to ongoing > work in TSVWG. > > Tim Moors wrote: > > > Richard Stevens wrote in RFC 2001 and p. 311 of TCP Ill. vol.1 that the > > Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other > end was on a > > different network", but that this was changed with the Reno > release of TCP > > so that slow start was always performed. ... > > Does anyone know why Tahoe didn't perform slow start for local > > communication? > This was raised at the Minneapolis IETF in a hallway discussion with > Reiner Ludwig and Andrei Gurtov, who posted the attached note to the > freebsd-net mailing list; I think Andrei's goal was to find the origin > of the code, though. Yes, and I tried to convince FreeBSD folks that blasting a full receive window instead of doing a slow start is not a good idea. The discussion in freebsd-net can be found at http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-net/20010422.freebsd-net.h tml I agree with David that having the same subnet mask does not necessary mean the hosts are connected with Ethernet. It could be WLAN or something else slower than Ethernet. Also, the receiver can be busy or slow and sending a huge burst to it can leads to packets being discarded. Some other reasons were given why a huge initial window may not be a good idea: -the benefit of not having slow start on LANs is very small, i.e. some milliseconds -it is not a conformant TCP feature, i.e. not allowed by TCP Congestion Control (RFC2581) and is explicitly given in Known TCP Implementation Problems (RFC2525) "2.1 No initial slow start" and "2.3 Uninitialized CWND" -people may have the same subnet mask also over a slow PPP link. In this case the effect of the huge initial window is quite bad, see for example http://www.cs.Helsinki.FI/u/gurtov/papers/effect_of_delays_on_tcp_performanc e.pdf -in case of congestion on Ethernet, packets queues build up at the network interfaces in hosts and aggressive TCP start-up behaviour can further increase congestion losses Andrei From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 10:30:22 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22449 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 4B75964153; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA8Ma4Ia; Mon, 8 Oct 01 10:29:28 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA19147 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19124 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 20362640F6; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet.org(63.108.254.91) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAKSaOi4; Mon, 8 Oct 01 10:14:51 -0400 Received: from mosquito.inet.org (mosquito [10.30.20.240]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2868266E; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008100621.00a238f0@10.30.15.2> X-Sender: rja@10.30.15.2 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:07:31 -0400 To: Joe Touch From: RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Cc: moors@ieee.org, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3BC11076.8010304@isi.edu> References: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk At 22:33 07/10/01, Joe Touch wrote: >Bridges don't queue like routers do, so shouldn't need slow start. That assertion is certainly no longer true, if it ever was true. >Proxy ARP and VLANs break the notion of what is local on a few levels; that they break this assumption too is not news. :-) That may be a reason to use them only in a limited and temporary fashion, rather than a reason to assume they are prevalent. Be conservative in what you send... Ran From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 10:50:45 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22901 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B8843C693C; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAfoa41f; Mon, 8 Oct 01 10:50:48 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA21477 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21471 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 958FFC68F1; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAYEai2c; Mon, 8 Oct 01 10:38:24 -0400 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15qbcq-0000eD-00; Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:43:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: gurtov@cs.Helsinki.FI (Andrei Gurtov) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:43:24 +0100 (BST) Cc: touch@ISI.EDU (Joe Touch), moors@ieee.org (Tim Moors), tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org, Reiner.Ludwig@Ericsson.com (Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com) In-Reply-To: from "Andrei Gurtov" at Oct 08, 2001 03:06:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, and I tried to convince FreeBSD folks that blasting a full receive > window instead of doing a slow start is not a good idea. The discussion in > freebsd-net can be found at > http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-net/20010422.freebsd-net.h > tml I agree - it isnt a good idea for a variety of reasons. Firstly not every switch or bridge is exactly 100% quality Secondly your slow start congestion avoidance is avoiding on wire congestion Thirdly your local "network" on an interface can be many weird and wonderful things - ATM lane, frame cloud, SMDS even PPP bridging - none of which react well to being blasted with data causing congestion. Its one of those ideas that only looks good in a paper Alan From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 11:15:41 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23404 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B619FC69C5; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAhfa41k; Mon, 8 Oct 01 11:13:15 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA23969 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA23927 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5C68F64178; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAeva4Ci; Mon, 8 Oct 01 11:00:42 -0400 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15qbyC-0000md-00; Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:05:28 +0100 Subject: Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: touch@ISI.EDU (Joe Touch) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:05:28 +0100 (BST) Cc: dab@bsdi.com (David Borman), moors@ieee.org, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3BC11076.8010304@isi.edu> from "Joe Touch" at Oct 07, 2001 07:33:26 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bridges don't queue like routers do, so shouldn't need slow start. You forgot the word "Some" Lots of el cheapo bridges queue. Alan From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 11:52:27 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24252 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 50DC9641A7; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA1oaaeC; Mon, 8 Oct 01 11:50:12 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA27392 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27388; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 6D321C68F1; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from infres-192.enst.fr(137.194.192.1) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAxLaOQp; Mon, 8 Oct 01 11:36:26 -0400 Received: from enst.fr (poisson.enst.fr [137.194.192.9]) by infres.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F30A189C; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:36:16 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <3BC1DA2F.E70B4DC8@enst.fr> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:54:07 +0100 From: Colloque GRES 2001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [fr] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: colloque.gres@enst.fr Subject: [RAPPEL]: Colloque GRES 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov id LAA27392 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id LAA24252 Bonjour, Afin de permettre aux retardataires de finaliser leurs articles, nous vous informons que la date limite pour la réception des articles est reportée au 19 Octobre 2001. Le comite d'organisation, Colloque Gres'2001 http://www.infres.enst.fr/~gres/ email : colloque.gres@enst.fr From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 12:31:27 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25400 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5089C641C4; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAu8aiNL; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:28:00 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA02362 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02320 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id EB934C6946; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAc_aajH; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:12:38 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f98GCSO21713; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1D050.30906@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:12:00 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrei Gurtov Cc: Tim Moors , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org, "Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrei Gurtov wrote: > ... >>This was raised at the Minneapolis IETF in a hallway discussion with >>Reiner Ludwig and Andrei Gurtov, who posted the attached note to the >>freebsd-net mailing list; I think Andrei's goal was to find the origin >>of the code, though. >> > > Yes, and I tried to convince FreeBSD folks that blasting a full receive > window instead of doing a slow start is not a good idea. The discussion in > freebsd-net can be found at > http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-net/20010422.freebsd-net.h > tml > > I agree with David that having the same subnet mask does not necessary mean > the hosts are connected with Ethernet. It could be WLAN or something else > slower than Ethernet. Also, the receiver can be busy or slow and sending a > huge burst to it can leads to packets being discarded. > > Some other reasons were given why a huge initial window may not be a good > idea: > > -the benefit of not having slow start on LANs is very small, i.e. some > milliseconds Milliseconds on a link with microsecond delays are enormous, BTW. > -it is not a conformant TCP feature, i.e. not allowed by TCP Congestion > Control (RFC2581) and is explicitly given in Known TCP Implementation > Problems (RFC2525) "2.1 No initial slow start" and "2.3 Uninitialized > CWND" FWIW, RFC2525 refers to the complete omission of slow start specifically. It never refers to disabling it on specific links, even though this was in the code at the time. > -people may have the same subnet mask also over a slow PPP link. In this > case the effect of the huge initial window is quite bad, see for example > http://www.cs.Helsinki.FI/u/gurtov/papers/effect_of_delays_on_tcp_performanc > e.pdf There are, BTW, a few other bits of code that depend on 'local' vs. 'remote', as interpreted by the subnet and the interfaces, notably: - MSS default - SYN/SYNACK piggybacking for T/TCP (delaying the SYN/SYNACK when there was data in the SYN and the connection is local) > -in case of congestion on Ethernet, packets queues build up at the > network interfaces in hosts and aggressive TCP start-up behaviour can > further increase congestion losses That's an odd interpretation of congestion. If all this is happening inside the host, it seems like something much more explicit should be happening between the NIC and the OS, rather than dragging TCP into the fray. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 12:50:23 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25903 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 3992764258; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA3WaaTQ; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:46:13 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA03835 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA03831 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 320BE640EB; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAN5ayZK; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:24:22 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f98GOHO24575; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1D315.4060604@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:23:49 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RJ Atkinson Cc: moors@ieee.org, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011008100621.00a238f0@10.30.15.2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RJ Atkinson wrote: > At 22:33 07/10/01, Joe Touch wrote: > >>Bridges don't queue like routers do, so shouldn't need slow start. >> > > That assertion is certainly no longer true, if it ever was true. > > >>Proxy ARP and VLANs break the notion of what is local on a few levels; that they break this assumption too is not news. :-) That may be a reason to use them only in a limited and temporary fashion, rather than a reason to assume they are prevalent. >> > > Be conservative in what you send... This refers to the _implementation_ of a protocol. Be conservative in _what_ you send, not _how much_. It goes back to 1980, long before congestion control was added. If we were really conservative in everything we wouldn't find path MTUs by sending large-packet probes. There are a number of places where the Internet protocols interpret links as different from paths, and treat links more aggressively. Most notably among these is broadcast and subnet-directed broadcast. As I said above, there are lots of protocols that break what proxy ARP and VLANs try to do. Revisionist redesign of the Internet architecture to support these newer tricks isn't going to help, though. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 12:59:31 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26113 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D58EE6436D; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAbFaqjV; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:56:38 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA05176 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05075 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B776A6414E; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAXPaqjN; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:31:52 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f98GVfO27807; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1D4D1.5060407@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:31:13 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrei Gurtov Cc: Tim Moors , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org, "Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, I'm not advocating for retaining the "avoid slowstart on local links" code. Just pointing out that: - it assumes links are different from paths as do many Internet protocols - the number of 'tricks' it defeats is not justification to change it most of the tricks are as bad if not worse, and break in too many other ways We need to be more careful about what we think is local, which might also include more careful use of a notion of direct connection when it isn't in fact direct. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 13:05:02 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26258 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 410386436F; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAWMaakV; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:56:39 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA04738 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA04715 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id CE5D864141; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAPLaaGL; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:27:50 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f98GRbO25883; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1D3DD.30802@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:27:09 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox Cc: Andrei Gurtov , Tim Moors , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org, "Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Cox wrote: >>Yes, and I tried to convince FreeBSD folks that blasting a full receive >>window instead of doing a slow start is not a good idea. The discussion in >>freebsd-net can be found at >>http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-net/20010422.freebsd-net.h >>tml >> > > I agree - it isnt a good idea for a variety of reasons. > > Firstly not every switch or bridge is exactly 100% quality > Secondly your slow start congestion avoidance is avoiding on wire congestion > Thirdly your local "network" on an interface can be many weird and wonderful > things - ATM lane, frame cloud, SMDS even PPP bridging - none of which react > well to being blasted with data causing congestion. The number of ways some of those break the Internet architecture is long, starting with the lack of true broadcast (defeating ARP, RIP, etc.) > Its one of those ideas that only looks good in a paper The same could be said about ATM lane, frame clouds, SMDS or PPP bridging :-) Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 13:10:27 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26474 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 9229564371; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAMRaGkV; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:56:39 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA05380 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05334; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2750064138; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louie.udel.edu(128.4.40.12) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAKlaa4N; Mon, 8 Oct 01 12:35:35 -0400 Received: from louie.udel.edu by mail.eecis.udel.edu id aa00537; 8 Oct 2001 12:32 EDT Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:32:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Constantinos Dovrolis To: Constantinos Dovrolis Subject: ICNP 2001 - Call for participation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Please note that the deadline for advance registration is on this Wednesday (Oct 10). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9th International Conference on Network Protocols ICNP 2001 Mission Inn, Riverside CA November 11-14, 2001 Advance Program Sunday, November 11 7:30-8:30 Breakfast 8:30-5:00 Full-day tutorial: `MPLS and the New Internet', by Andre Danthine (University of Liege, Belgium) 8:30-12:00 Half-day tutorial A: `Peer-to-peer computing: the hype, the real problems, and the quest for solutions', by Krishna Kant, Ravi Iyer, and Vijay Tewari (Intel Corporation) 12:00-1:30 Lunch 1:30-5:00 Half-day tutorial B: `Web servers: implementation and performance', by Erich Nahum (IBM T. J. Watson Research Center) Monday, November 12 7:30-8:30 Breakfast 8:30-9:00 Welcome Satish Tripathi (conference chair), Magda El Zarki and Klara Nahrstedt (TPC chairs) 9:00-10:00 Keynote `Future of the Internet', Randy Katz (UC-Berkeley) 10:00-10:30 Coffee Break 10:30-12:00 Session 1: Wireless , Session Chair: Andrew Campbell Distributed Token Circulation in mobile ad-hoc Networks, Navneet Malpani (Intel), Nitin Vaidya (UIUC, USA), Jennifer Welch (Texas A&M, USA) On-demand Multi-path Distance Vector Routing in ad-hoc Networks, Mahesh Marina, Samir R. Das (University of Cincinnati, USA) PARO: A Power Aware Optimization Scheme for Routing in Multi-hop Wireless Packet Networks, J.Gormez, A.Campbell (Columbia University, USA), M. Naghshineh, C. Bisdikian, (IBM T.J. Watson Research Center) Recursive Position Estimation in Sensory Networks, Joe Albowicz, Alvin Chen, Lixia Zhang (UCLA, USA) 12:00-1:30 Lunch (on your own) 1:30-3:00 Session 2: Routing, Session Chair: Marco Schneider Adapting to Route-demand and Mobility (ARM) in Ad-hoc Network Routing, Sungjoon Ahn, A. Udaya Snakar (University of Maryland, College Park, USA) An Experimental Analysis of BGP Convergence Time, Timothy G. Griffin (AT&T Research Labs, USA), Brian J. Premore (Dartmouth College, USA) QoS Routing Algorithms for Bandwidth-Delay Constrained Applications, Yi Yang, Jogesh K. Muppala, Samuel T. Chanson (Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, Hong Kong) Routing Bandwidth Guaranteed Paths with Restoration in Label Switched Networks, Samphel Norden (Washington University in St. Louis, USA), Milind M. Buddhikot (Lucent Bell Labs, USA), Marcel Waldvogel (IBM Zurich Research Laboratory, Switzerland), Subhash Suri (University of California, Santa Barbara, USA) 3:00-3:30 Coffee Break 3:30-5:00 Session 3: Multicast, Session Chair: Robin Kravets Source Filtering in IP Multicast Routing, De-Nian Yang, Chang-Jung Kao, Wanjiun Liao (National Taiwan University, Taiwan) Making QoS Aware Multicast Scalable in Terms of Link State Advertisement, Toshihiko Kato (KDDI R&D Laboratories, Inc., Japan), Seiji Ueno, Shigeki Mukaiyama (University of Electro-Communication, Japan), Kenji Suzuki (KDDI R&D Laboratories, Inc., Japan) Channelization Problem in Large Scale Data Dissemination, Micah Adler, Zihui Ge, James F. Kurose, Don Towsley (University of Massachusetts, USA), Stephen Zabele (Litton-TASC Inc., USA) An Efficient QoS Routing for Quorum-cast Communication, Bin Wang (Wright State University, USA), Jennifer C. Jou (Ohio State University, USA) 5:30-9:00 Reception at Riverside Citrus State Park (busses leave at 5:30 PM) Tuesday, November 13 7:30-8:30 Breakfast 8:30-10:00 Session 4: DiffServ, Session Chair: Ibrahim Matta Dynamic Class Selection: From Relative Differentiation to Absolute QoS, Constantinos Dovrolis (University of Delaware, USA), Parameswaran Ramanathan (University of Wisconsin, USA) Fundamental Tradeoff in Aggregate Packet Scheduling, Zhi-Li Zhang, Zhenhai Duan (University of Minnesota, USA), Yiwei Thomas Hou (Fujitsu Labs, USA) A Memory based Approach for a TCP friendly Traffic Conditioner in DiffServ Networks, K.R. Renjish Kumar, A. L. Ananda, Lillykutty Jacob (National University of Singapure, Singapure) Drop Strategies and Loss Rate Differentiation, Ulf Bodin, Olov Schelen (Lulea University of Technology, Sweden) 10:00-10:30 Coffee Break 10:30-12:00 Session 5: TCP, Session Chair: Lixia Zhang TCP friendly SIMD Congestion Control and Its Convergence Behavior, Shudong Jin, Liang Guo, Ibrahim Matta, Azer Bestavros (Boston University, USA) Transport Level Mechanisms for Bandwidth Aggregation on Mobile Hosts, Luiz Magalhaes, Robin Kravets (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, USA) TCP over Load Reactive Links, Rajesh Krishnan, James P.G. Sterbenz (BBN Technologies, USA) The War between Mice and Elephants, Liang Guo, Ibrahim Matta (Boston University, USA) 12:00-1:30 Lunch 1:30-3:00 Panel 1: End of the end-to-end argument? 3:00-3:30 Coffee Break 3:30-5:00 Session 6: QoS , Session Chair: Michalis Faloutsos Controlling Hihg-Bandwidth Flows at the Congested Routers, Ratul Mahajan (ICSI and University of Washington, USA), Sally Floyd (ICSI, USA), David Wetherall (University of Washington, USA) Optimal Admission Control for Scheduling High-Data Rate Burst in a Wideband CDMA, Yu-Kwong Kwok, Vincent K.N. Lau (University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong) Providing Quality of Service without Per-Flow State, Jorge A. Cobb (University of Texas at Dallas, USA) Comparative Evaluation of Software Implementation of Layer-4 Packet Class Schemes, Vivek Sahasranaman (Inktomi Inc., USA), Milind M. Buddhikot (Lucent Bell Labs, USA) Wednesday, November 14 7:30-8:30 Breakfast 8:30-10:00 Session 7: Security, Session Chair: Gene Tsudik Using Dynamic Buffer Limiting to Protect Against Belligerent Flows in High-speed Networks, Fusun Ertemalp, David R. Cheriton, Andreas Bechtolsheim (Cisco Systems, Inc.) Fast Firewall Implementations for Software and Hardware based Routers, Lili Qiu (Microsoft Research), George Varghese (University of California, San Diego), Subhash Suri (University of California, Santa Barbara) Providing Robust and Ubiquitous Security Support for MANET, Jiejun Kong, Petros Zerfos, Haiyun Luo, Songwu Lu, Lixia Zhang (UCLA, USA) Scalable Secure Group Communication over IP Multicast, Suman Banerjee, Bobby Bhattacharjee (University of Maryland, College Park) 10:00-10:30 Coffee Break 10:30-12:00 Session 8: Servers, Session Chair: Nina Bhatti Responder Anonymity and Anonymous Peer-to-Peer File Sharing, Vincent R. Scarlata, Brian Neil Levine (University of Massachusetts, USA), Clay Shields (Georgetown University, USA) Scalable Socket Buffer Tuning for High-Performance Web Server, Go Hasegawa, Tasuhiko Terai, Takuya Okamoto, Masayuki Murata (Osaka University, Japan) Evaluation of a Novel Two-Step Server Selection Metric, Katrina M. Hanna, Nandini Natarajan, Brian Neil Levine (University of Massachusetts, USA) Finding Close Friends on the Internet, Christopher Kommareddy, Narendar Shankar, Bobby Bhattacharjee (University of Maryland, College Park, USA) 12:00-1:30 Lunch (on your own) 1:30-3:00 Panel 2: Impact of Peer-to-Peer networking 3:00-3:30 Coffee Break 3:30-5:00 Session 9: Traffic Management, Session Chair: Ljiljana Trajkovic Internet User Access via Dial-up-Networks - Traffic Characterization and Statistics, Ron Hutchins, Ellen W. Zegura, Andrew Liashenko, Philip H. Enslow Jr. (Georgia Institute of Technology, USA) Fast and Robust Signaling Overload Control, Sneha Kumar Kasera, C. Loader, M. Karaul, A. Hari, T. LaPorta (Lucent Bell Labs, USA) Robust Congestion Control, David Ely, Neil Spring, David Wetherall, Stefan Savage, Tom Andreson (University of Washington, USA) Second-Order Rate-Control Based Transport Protocols, Xi Zhang, Kang G. Shin (University of Michigan, USA) From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 13:45:47 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27521 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 28D8564454; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAf6aGuk; Mon, 8 Oct 01 13:43:21 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id NAA10469 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10460 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 1C421C6B8D; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAVpa4vc; Mon, 8 Oct 01 13:13:49 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras30.isi.edu [128.9.176.130]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f98HDiO12316; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1DEAA.4000602@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:13:14 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RJ Atkinson Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011008100621.00a238f0@10.30.15.2> <5.1.0.14.2.20011008125355.00ab1410@10.30.15.2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RJ Atkinson wrote: > At 12:23 08/10/01, Joe Touch wrote: > >>There are a number of places where the Internet protocols interpret links >>as different from paths, and treat links more aggressively. Most notably >>among these is broadcast and subnet-directed broadcast. >> > > Both of which are being killed off in IPv6. Wonder why ? > Now you know. I now know why IPv6 isn't being widely deployed too :-)) Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 15:05:37 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29063 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 136A9642CD; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAG9aqwz; Mon, 8 Oct 01 15:04:11 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id OAA16853 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16849 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 846DB6439A; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet.org(63.108.254.91) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAOWaihZ; Mon, 8 Oct 01 13:03:25 -0400 Received: from mosquito.inet.org (rja-laptop [10.30.34.139]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388FC82670; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008125355.00ab1410@10.30.15.2> X-Sender: rja@10.30.15.2 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:56:00 -0400 To: Joe Touch From: RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3BC1D315.4060604@isi.edu> References: <200110080140.f981ekt06809@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011008100621.00a238f0@10.30.15.2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk At 12:23 08/10/01, Joe Touch wrote: >This refers to the _implementation_ of a protocol. Be conservative in >_what_ you send, not _how much_. It goes back to 1980, long before congestion control was added. Traditionally, this concept has also referred to how much one sends. >If we were really conservative in everything we wouldn't find path MTUs by sending large-packet probes. Conservative is meant in the sense of not harming the shared resources. PMTU probing does not cause such harm. >There are a number of places where the Internet protocols interpret links >as different from paths, and treat links more aggressively. Most notably >among these is broadcast and subnet-directed broadcast. Both of which are being killed off in IPv6. Wonder why ? Now you know. Ran From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 15:48:06 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29840 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 6EAA164386; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA9UailJ; Mon, 8 Oct 01 15:44:11 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA23417 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA23372 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 78B9C64274; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAG2aW2v; Mon, 8 Oct 01 14:46:14 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (sci.isi.edu [128.9.160.93]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f98Ik6O07301; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1F465.9000707@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 11:45:57 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pablo Molinero Fernandez Cc: Andrei Gurtov , Tim Moors , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org, "Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <3BC1D050.30906@isi.edu> <3BC1F24A.9040401@Stanford.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pablo Molinero Fernandez wrote: > Joe Touch wrote: > >>> -the benefit of not having slow start on LANs is very small, i.e. some >>> milliseconds >> >> >> >> >> Milliseconds on a link with microsecond delays are enormous, BTW. >> >> > > > If we take into account several user space/kernel space switches of some > milliseconds in both the sender and the receiver, That's a very slow switch. Should be in the 10's of microseconds. > that the transmission > time of a full frame in each 10-Mbit segment is 1.2 ms, That's for data... > that we need one SYN/SYN-ACK handshake before we can pass the > information to the end-user SYN/SYN-ACKs don't have full frames of data :-) Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 15:51:04 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29908 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id A377964387; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAeZaylJ; Mon, 8 Oct 01 15:44:11 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA23340 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA23245 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B3B5B64477; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu(171.64.14.116) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAACfaqCu; Mon, 8 Oct 01 14:37:55 -0400 Received: from Stanford.EDU ([65.4.209.27]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f98Ibhd15873; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC1F24A.9040401@Stanford.EDU> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 11:36:58 -0700 From: Pablo Molinero Fernandez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20010917 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch Cc: Andrei Gurtov , Tim Moors , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, tsvwg@ietf.org, "Reiner. Ludwig@ericsson. com" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <3BC1D050.30906@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Touch wrote: > > > Andrei Gurtov wrote: > >> > ... > >>> This was raised at the Minneapolis IETF in a hallway discussion with >>> Reiner Ludwig and Andrei Gurtov, who posted the attached note to the >>> freebsd-net mailing list; I think Andrei's goal was to find the origin >>> of the code, though. >>> >> >> Yes, and I tried to convince FreeBSD folks that blasting a full receive >> window instead of doing a slow start is not a good idea. The >> discussion in >> freebsd-net can be found at >> http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-net/20010422.freebsd-net.h >> >> tml >> >> I agree with David that having the same subnet mask does not necessary >> mean >> the hosts are connected with Ethernet. It could be WLAN or something else >> slower than Ethernet. Also, the receiver can be busy or slow and >> sending a >> huge burst to it can leads to packets being discarded. >> >> Some other reasons were given why a huge initial window may not be a good >> idea: >> >> -the benefit of not having slow start on LANs is very small, i.e. some >> milliseconds > > > > Milliseconds on a link with microsecond delays are enormous, BTW. > > If we take into account several user space/kernel space switches of some milliseconds in both the sender and the receiver, that the transmission time of a full frame in each 10-Mbit segment is 1.2 ms, and the fact that we need one SYN/SYN-ACK handshake before we can pass the information to the end-user, then the increase of some ms in the completion time has a smaller impact than suggested. Pablo Molinero > > Joe > > From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 19:31:31 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04107 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 7F240C691B; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAQvaqBS; Mon, 8 Oct 01 19:31:33 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id TAA12325 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA12321 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 62F82C68F1; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com(192.188.61.3) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAptaGJQ; Mon, 8 Oct 01 19:21:22 -0400 Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.12.0/8.12.0) id f98NLL7u029264 for tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov env-from ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:21:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:21:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200110082321.f98NLL7u029264@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > > Firstly not every switch or bridge is exactly 100% quality > > Secondly your slow start congestion avoidance is avoiding on wire congestion > > Thirdly your local "network" on an interface can be many weird and wonderful > > things - ATM lane, frame cloud, SMDS even PPP bridging - none of which react > > well to being blasted with data causing congestion. > > The number of ways some of those break the Internet architecture is > long, starting with the lack of true broadcast (defeating ARP, RIP, etc.) Really? So nothing but LANs implement the "Internet architecture." Similar objections apply to requiring tighter coupling between the network interface and the network code than in classic sockets than the driver discarding the packet with ENOBUFS on queue overflow.. > > > Its one of those ideas that only looks good in a paper > > The same could be said about ATM lane, frame clouds, SMDS or PPP > bridging :-) STREAMS (at least the shouted flavor) is another paper tiger, even if the protocol code can in some implementations get back pressure from the hardware driver's queue. I think I read a claim in this thread that the reason to turn off slow start had is related to CPU utilization. Perhaps that's the case in some implementations, but in my experience the reason you want to turn off slow start on a LAN is that you don't want to waste a bunch of RTT's running slowly. That was painfully true even at 100 Mbit/sec. At 1 Gbit/sec or 10 Gbit/sec, and with windows big enough to deal with the large ratio of bandwidth/RTT and bandwidth/interrupt latency, by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers are finished. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 20:19:30 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA04478 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 10195641C2; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAACaair2; Mon, 8 Oct 01 20:17:40 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id UAA16513 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16509 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 290A9C68F1; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAmEay3Y; Mon, 8 Oct 01 20:11:21 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (sci.isi.edu [128.9.160.93]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f990BJO09107; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC2409A.60003@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:11:06 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vernon Schryver Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <200110082321.f98NLL7u029264@calcite.rhyolite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vernon Schryver wrote: >>>Firstly not every switch or bridge is exactly 100% quality >>>Secondly your slow start congestion avoidance is avoiding on wire congestion >>>Thirdly your local "network" on an interface can be many weird and wonderful >>>things - ATM lane, frame cloud, SMDS even PPP bridging - none of which react >>>well to being blasted with data causing congestion. >>> >>The number of ways some of those break the Internet architecture is >>long, starting with the lack of true broadcast (defeating ARP, RIP, etc.) >> > > Really? So nothing but LANs implement the "Internet architecture." Lots of things expect either point-to-point or subnets; in the first case, you don't need the hardware address of the other end. In the latter, you do, in which case there has to be a way to find it. The above generally break where they use subnets AND point-to-point links. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 8 21:35:59 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06118 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id C5DF0C69E4; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAp0ayeg; Mon, 8 Oct 01 21:35:33 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id VAA22630 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA22624 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2974A640FA; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nicol6.umkc.edu(134.193.4.67) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAijaaor; Mon, 8 Oct 01 21:26:22 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=umkc.edu ident=david) by nicol6.umkc.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15qleo-0005CD-00; Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:26:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3BC2522E.B6983088@umkc.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:26:06 -0500 From: David Nicol X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vernon Schryver Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <200110082321.f98NLL7u029264@calcite.rhyolite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vernon Schryver wrote: > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > are finished. > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer rather than by connection? -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 08:06:50 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28602 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id E2A35641A5; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA3Iaqun; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:05:01 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id HAA03992 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA03960 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id E737D64218; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAyqaGzN; Tue, 9 Oct 01 07:44:19 -0400 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15qvON-0003sI-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:49:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: nicold@umkc.edu (David Nicol) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:49:47 +0100 (BST) Cc: vjs@calcite.rhyolite.com (Vernon Schryver), tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <3BC2522E.B6983088@umkc.edu> from "David Nicol" at Oct 08, 2001 08:26:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Vernon Schryver wrote: > > > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > > are finished. > > > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com > > Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > rather than by connection? What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) Alan From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 08:33:14 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29692 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id DBDAE641E5; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA_Jaq1g; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:30:33 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA09978 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09866 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id CA4986410E; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from patan.sun.com(192.18.98.43) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAfhaOZG; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:09:38 -0400 Received: from sunuk.UK.Sun.COM ([129.156.85.58]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04699 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from watford-109 (watford-109.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.199.109]) by sunuk.UK.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with SMTP id NAA02799 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:09:35 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200110091209.NAA02799@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:10:30 +0100 (BST) From: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Reply-To: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 4z4CxhhPEcNAUNBnm5VRTQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > From: Alan Cox > > > Vernon Schryver wrote: > > > > > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > > > are finished. > > > > > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com > > > > Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > > rather than by connection? > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) So, by peer+port ? -Jeremy From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 08:57:08 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA00962 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id BFF306421C; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAYqa4Fo; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:56:12 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA15703 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA15671 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 7C64564150; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAc_ayvj; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:38:51 -0400 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15qwFF-00044D-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:44:25 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: jgh@uk.sun.com Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:44:25 +0100 (BST) Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <200110091209.NAA02799@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> from "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" at Oct 09, 2001 01:10:30 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > So, by peer+port ? Look at it from both ends view points. Its peer and port pair - otherwise known as "by connection" From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 09:36:47 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02477 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5F3DAC69F8; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA_raOwl; Tue, 9 Oct 01 09:36:25 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA26128 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26083 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 715DEC6996; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from patan.sun.com(192.18.98.43) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAUiaO0h; Tue, 9 Oct 01 09:25:25 -0400 Received: from sunuk.UK.Sun.COM ([129.156.85.58]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07204 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:25:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from watford-109 (watford-109.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.199.109]) by sunuk.UK.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with SMTP id OAA28685 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:25:22 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200110091325.OAA28685@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:26:19 +0100 (BST) From: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Reply-To: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: QC1UmLA2SF3FhRotBPEdWw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > > > So, by peer+port ? > > Look at it from both ends view points. Its peer and port pair - otherwise > known as "by connection" I think you can usefully be more general than that. From the point of view of a host, (peer + service) is interesting. The "this host" element of the 4-tuple specifying the connection is implicit, and the "local port" is irrelevant for the case where you are a local client of a remote service on a fixed "well-known" port number. I'm not sure how to make it work for ftp. - Jeremy From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 11:44:28 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06127 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 84D0364225; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAo7aW_Q; Tue, 9 Oct 01 11:42:41 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA29413 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA29409 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id ACEBCC68FE; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA45aq_N; Tue, 9 Oct 01 11:31:21 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras38.isi.edu [128.9.176.138]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f99FV6O17776; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC31838.7010109@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:31:04 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox Cc: David Nicol , Vernon Schryver , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Cox wrote: >>Vernon Schryver wrote: >> >> >>>by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers >>>are finished. >>> >>>Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com >>> >>Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer >>rather than by connection? >> > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) Same host? RFC1122. Same path? There's nothing that requires that two packets to the same port go to the same path. In short, the same rules that make tracking window size reasonable within a single connection. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 17:31:57 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13831 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2AA40C696E; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAixaiER; Tue, 9 Oct 01 17:31:41 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id RAA16171 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16135 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 6BAE9C692F; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com(192.188.61.3) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAALqaijO; Tue, 9 Oct 01 17:17:45 -0400 Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.12.0/8.12.0) id f99LHiri022221 for tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov env-from ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:17:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:17:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200110092117.f99LHiri022221@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > From: Alan Cox > > > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > > > are finished. > > > > > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com > > > > Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > > rather than by connection? > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) Also, if you can't tell whether a TCP peer is "nearby" by something related to its "connection" (several meanings of "nearby" and "connection"), then what alternative do you have? You can manually configure the window size per peer with any of several existing tactics in more than one operating system, but manual configuration of such parameters is *alwasy* a disaster sooner or later. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 9 19:02:17 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14734 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 75A41C692F; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAR2aisb; Tue, 9 Oct 01 19:02:19 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA26632 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA26612 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 1B209640C9; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tnt.isi.edu(128.9.128.128) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAALhaG4S; Tue, 9 Oct 01 18:50:31 -0400 Received: from gra.isi.edu (gra.isi.edu [128.9.160.133]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f99MoUg12959 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:50:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Braden Received: (from braden@localhost) by gra.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id WAA14370 for tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:50:30 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:50:30 GMT Message-Id: <200110092250.WAA14370@gra.isi.edu> To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk I would welcome a discussion on the end2end-interest list of the higher-level implications of this discussion for the Internet architecture. What information should the network be giving a reliable E2E transport protocol like TCP, for any conceivable network/link layer variants? Bob Braden From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 09:42:58 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10187 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B1A05641E3; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAWWa4TU; Wed, 10 Oct 01 09:40:58 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA03944 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA03894 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D348B6414A; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAQvaW0O; Wed, 10 Oct 01 09:22:18 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:22:01 +0200 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.12]) by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:06:02 +0200 Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5BE53641A5; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAJtaq_V; Tue, 9 Oct 01 19:03:47 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA26632 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA26612 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 1B209640C9; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tnt.isi.edu(128.9.128.128) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAALhaG4S; Tue, 9 Oct 01 18:50:31 -0400 Received: from gra.isi.edu (gra.isi.edu [128.9.160.133]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f99MoUg12959 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:50:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Braden Received: (from braden@localhost) by gra.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id WAA14370 for tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:50:30 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:50:30 GMT Message-Id: <200110092250.WAA14370@gra.isi.edu> To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk I would welcome a discussion on the end2end-interest list of the higher-level implications of this discussion for the Internet architecture. What information should the network be giving a reliable E2E transport protocol like TCP, for any conceivable network/link layer variants? Bob Braden From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 11:02:57 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11818 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D5DA864167; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA3uaGKp; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:00:32 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA23318 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA23290 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 25B8E64170; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from duke.poly.edu(128.238.2.92) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAz0a4Yh; Wed, 10 Oct 01 10:43:34 -0400 Received: from bradman ([128.238.35.107]) by duke.poly.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA08829; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:43:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim Moors" To: Cc: , Subject: What should e2e protocols know about lower layers? Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:34:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Braden wrote: >What information should the network be giving >a reliable E2E transport protocol like TCP, for any conceivable >network/link layer variants? This question follows a discussion amongst the Transport Area Working Group (ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/tsvwg/) over the last couple of days. The discussion started with a question about why the Tahoe release of TCP "performed slow start only if the other end was on a different network". Part of the motivation for the question was a renewed desire for this sort of behavior in limited circumstances when the end-to-end path does not traverse routers, e.g. a single hop across a wireless network, or across an optical circuit. One thread of the discussion questioned how an instance of an e2e protocol like TCP can determine whether its communicating peer is "local". Should the network provide this sort of information to the e2e protocols? This leads into Bob's broader question. What do end2end-interest list readers think? Tim Moors ___________________________________ Web: http://uluru.poly.edu/~tmoors/ From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 11:51:54 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12749 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 1311C6413D; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAACNa4VU; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:50:19 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA12819 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA12778 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 36D6F640B5; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAmBaqak; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:38:50 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:37:47 +0200 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.11]) by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:33:22 +0200 Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B0112C6961; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAcHayqZ; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:31:59 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA09978 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09866 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id CA4986410E; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from patan.sun.com(192.18.98.43) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAfhaOZG; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:09:38 -0400 Received: from sunuk.UK.Sun.COM ([129.156.85.58]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04699 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from watford-109 (watford-109.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.199.109]) by sunuk.UK.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with SMTP id NAA02799 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:09:35 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200110091209.NAA02799@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:10:30 +0100 (BST) From: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Reply-To: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 4z4CxhhPEcNAUNBnm5VRTQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > From: Alan Cox > > > Vernon Schryver wrote: > > > > > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > > > are finished. > > > > > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com > > > > Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > > rather than by connection? > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) So, by peer+port ? -Jeremy From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 12:17:40 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13421 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 63F6C641AF; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAOlaagK; Wed, 10 Oct 01 12:15:17 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA17587 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA17550 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 27E06C6A33; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAANfaOKX; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:54:39 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:54:31 +0200 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.12]) by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:57:59 +0200 Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 126E2641B5; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAj0ayst; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:57:40 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA15703 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA15671 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 7C64564150; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAc_ayvj; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:38:51 -0400 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15qwFF-00044D-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:44:25 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: jgh@uk.sun.com Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:44:25 +0100 (BST) Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <200110091209.NAA02799@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> from "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" at Oct 09, 2001 01:10:30 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > So, by peer+port ? Look at it from both ends view points. Its peer and port pair - otherwise known as "by connection" From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 12:51:36 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14438 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id EBF4CC696A; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA5maa_g; Wed, 10 Oct 01 12:48:11 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA26427 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA26400 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 25777C6920; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tnt.isi.edu(128.9.128.128) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAFbaWKc; Wed, 10 Oct 01 12:33:42 -0400 Received: from gra.isi.edu (gra.isi.edu [128.9.160.133]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f9AGXeg00006; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:33:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Braden Received: (from braden@localhost) by gra.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id QAA14559; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:33:40 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:33:40 GMT Message-Id: <200110101633.QAA14559@gra.isi.edu> To: end2end-interest@postel.org, moors@ieee.org Subject: Re: [e2e] What should e2e protocols know about lower layers? Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov, ltsvwg@ietf.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk *> *> Bob Braden wrote: *> *> >What information should the network be giving *> >a reliable E2E transport protocol like TCP, for any conceivable *> >network/link layer variants? *> *> This question follows a discussion amongst the Transport Area Working Group *> (ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/tsvwg/) over the last couple of days. *> The discussion started with a question about why the Tahoe release of TCP *> "performed slow start only if the other end was on a different network". *> Part of the motivation for the question was a renewed desire for this sort *> of behavior in limited circumstances when the end-to-end path does not *> traverse routers, e.g. a single hop across a wireless network, or across an *> optical circuit. One thread of the discussion questioned how an instance of *> an e2e protocol like TCP can determine whether its communicating peer is *> "local". *> Should the network provide this sort of information to the e2e protocols? *> This leads into Bob's broader question. *> *> What do end2end-interest list readers think? *> *> *> Tim Moors *> ___________________________________ *> Web: http://uluru.poly.edu/~tmoors/ *> Thanks, but I meant the E2E-interest list ONLY! Please remove tcp-impl and tsvwg from the distribution. Then, full speed ahead! Bob Braden From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 15:34:46 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19328 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 119C1C68FF; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAk9aaIY; Wed, 10 Oct 01 15:33:22 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA03322 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA03297 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D29E364138; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA5hayi3; Wed, 10 Oct 01 15:17:45 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:16:20 +0200 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.11]) by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:47:16 +0200 Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 4EAD3C6A86; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA6EaWaS; Tue, 9 Oct 01 11:44:30 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA29413 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA29409 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id ACEBCC68FE; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA45aq_N; Tue, 9 Oct 01 11:31:21 -0400 Received: from isi.edu (ras38.isi.edu [128.9.176.138]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f99FV6O17776; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC31838.7010109@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:31:04 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox Cc: David Nicol , Vernon Schryver , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Cox wrote: >>Vernon Schryver wrote: >> >> >>>by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers >>>are finished. >>> >>>Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com >>> >>Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer >>rather than by connection? >> > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) Same host? RFC1122. Same path? There's nothing that requires that two packets to the same port go to the same path. In short, the same rules that make tracking window size reasonable within a single connection. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 18:22:43 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22516 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 0F796C6A13; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAAhaGk5; Wed, 10 Oct 01 18:20:01 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA01884 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01864 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 0C99FC6900; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nicol6.umkc.edu(134.193.4.67) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAEWaq01; Wed, 10 Oct 01 18:04:42 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=umkc.edu ident=david) by nicol6.umkc.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15rRSl-0006b7-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:04:27 -0500 Message-ID: <3BC4C5E9.187907A8@umkc.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:04:25 -0500 From: David Nicol X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch Cc: Alan Cox , Vernon Schryver , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: <3BC31838.7010109@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Touch wrote: > > Alan Cox wrote: > >>Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > >>rather than by connection? > >> > > > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > ... > In short, the same rules that make tracking window size reasonable > within a single connection. Okay, track by peer-port pair. Are there really NAT points that offer different MTU depending on which back-end peer is handling this particular request? Anyone working on HTTP over UDP? -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 10 18:46:25 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22645 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 59265C699B; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAIWaWye; Wed, 10 Oct 01 18:46:09 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA05164 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA05126 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D79DEC6920; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nicol6.umkc.edu(134.193.4.67) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAYLaqxb; Wed, 10 Oct 01 18:29:57 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=umkc.edu ident=david) by nicol6.umkc.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15rRrH-0007Fp-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:29:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3BC4CBDA.526FA147@umkc.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:29:46 -0500 From: David Nicol X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox Cc: jgh@uk.sun.com, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Cox wrote: > > > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > > > So, by peer+port ? > > Look at it from both ends view points. Its peer and port pair - otherwise > known as "by connection" peer+foreign_port would mean, that if I need to get open five connections to 204.152.189.113:80 I would only need to do slow start on the first one; the other four would inherit the settings. 10.1.2.3:9773 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 slow start 10.1.2.3:9774 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached 10.1.2.3:9775 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached 10.1.2.3:9776 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached 10.1.2.3:9776 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 11 07:39:41 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14691 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 952826420E; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAT2aisc; Thu, 11 Oct 01 07:36:53 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id HAA23948 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA23906 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id EC1B6C6924; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAO8aioZ; Thu, 11 Oct 01 07:21:52 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:21:50 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:03:48 +0200 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.12]) by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:33:52 +0200 Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 3E10E640CD; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAACMaigc; Tue, 9 Oct 01 17:33:17 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id RAA16171 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16135 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 6BAE9C692F; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com(192.188.61.3) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAALqaijO; Tue, 9 Oct 01 17:17:45 -0400 Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.12.0/8.12.0) id f99LHiri022221 for tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov env-from ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:17:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:17:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200110092117.f99LHiri022221@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > From: Alan Cox > > > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > > > are finished. > > > > > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com > > > > Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > > rather than by connection? > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) Also, if you can't tell whether a TCP peer is "nearby" by something related to its "connection" (several meanings of "nearby" and "connection"), then what alternative do you have? You can manually configure the window size per peer with any of several existing tactics in more than one operating system, but manual configuration of such parameters is *alwasy* a disaster sooner or later. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 11 08:15:29 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA15013 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2780A640BE; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA7Wa4cd; Thu, 11 Oct 01 08:13:03 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA29792 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA29777 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 8D723C6963; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.1) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA8Kaa5a; Thu, 11 Oct 01 08:00:21 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:00:19 +0200 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.12]) by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:50:29 +0200 Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 31CB6642B2; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAACbaast; Wed, 10 Oct 01 18:47:23 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA05164 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA05126 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D79DEC6920; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nicol6.umkc.edu(134.193.4.67) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAYLaqxb; Wed, 10 Oct 01 18:29:57 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=umkc.edu ident=david) by nicol6.umkc.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15rRrH-0007Fp-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:29:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3BC4CBDA.526FA147@umkc.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:29:46 -0500 From: David Nicol X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox Cc: jgh@uk.sun.com, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Cox wrote: > > > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > > > So, by peer+port ? > > Look at it from both ends view points. Its peer and port pair - otherwise > known as "by connection" peer+foreign_port would mean, that if I need to get open five connections to 204.152.189.113:80 I would only need to do slow start on the first one; the other four would inherit the settings. 10.1.2.3:9773 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 slow start 10.1.2.3:9774 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached 10.1.2.3:9775 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached 10.1.2.3:9776 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached 10.1.2.3:9776 <--> 204.152.189.113:80 cached -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 11 09:33:40 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16052 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 44E96C6A62; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAg4aygd; Thu, 11 Oct 01 09:31:47 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA16268 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16245 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5CAB66412C; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA_WaaeL; Thu, 11 Oct 01 09:16:57 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:16:52 +0200 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.11]) by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:52:35 +0200 Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 382C2C6A36; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAu_aq6W; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:52:07 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA12819 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA12778 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 36D6F640B5; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAmBaqak; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:38:50 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:37:47 +0200 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.11]) by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:33:22 +0200 Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B0112C6961; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAcHayqZ; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:31:59 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA09978 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09866 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id CA4986410E; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from patan.sun.com(192.18.98.43) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAfhaOZG; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:09:38 -0400 Received: from sunuk.UK.Sun.COM ([129.156.85.58]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04699 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from watford-109 (watford-109.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.199.109]) by sunuk.UK.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with SMTP id NAA02799 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:09:35 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200110091209.NAA02799@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:10:30 +0100 (BST) From: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Reply-To: "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 4z4CxhhPEcNAUNBnm5VRTQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk > From: Alan Cox > > > Vernon Schryver wrote: > > > > > by the time you get the window slow-started-open, many TCP transfers > > > are finished. > > > > > > Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com > > > > Maybe it would make sense to track good window size by peer > > rather than by connection? > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) So, by peer+port ? -Jeremy From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 11 10:14:39 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16826 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 1B90E6426A; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAnlaa83; Thu, 11 Oct 01 10:12:45 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA28113 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28072 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B2F8D64103; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAJ0aqPY; Thu, 11 Oct 01 09:55:40 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:55:35 +0200 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.12]) by yucntsys1.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:19:44 +0200 Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 345B464299; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAATEaa7K; Wed, 10 Oct 01 12:17:09 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA17587 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA17550 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 27E06C6A33; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(212.8.180.2) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAANfaOKX; Wed, 10 Oct 01 11:54:39 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:54:31 +0200 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.10.12]) by yucntsys2.yucom.be with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:57:59 +0200 Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 126E2641B5; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAj0ayst; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:57:40 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA15703 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA15671 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 7C64564150; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAc_ayvj; Tue, 9 Oct 01 08:38:51 -0400 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15qwFF-00044D-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:44:25 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] Re: Why use Slow Start when destination is local? To: jgh@uk.sun.com Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:44:25 +0100 (BST) Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <200110091209.NAA02799@sunuk.UK.Sun.COM> from "Jeremy Harris [RU-UK]" at Oct 09, 2001 01:10:30 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What makes you think that different ports go via the same path or even to > > the same host ? Both are routinely untrue (bulk routing via satellite with > > interactive traffic going landlink, web caches by inktomi and friends) > > So, by peer+port ? Look at it from both ends view points. Its peer and port pair - otherwise known as "by connection" From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 16 00:00:16 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA20508 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id C7D2BC6909; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAy7aGLe; Tue, 16 Oct 01 00:00:16 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id XAA19720 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA19716 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 37838640BC; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web13803.mail.yahoo.com(216.136.175.13) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAZlaikq; Mon, 15 Oct 01 23:44:15 -0400 Message-ID: <20011016034414.90476.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.104.212.252] by web13803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:44:14 PDT Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:44:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Saurabh Shrivastava Subject: interface/route deletion To: tcp-impl@lerc.nasa.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk hi!, Q1 when an interface goes down, and there are still, tcp sessions going thru it what happens ? Q2 when a TCP session is using a route (struct route * stored in in_pcb) and that router gets removed, id the route pointer reset. can someone please point me to the code which handles these events in TCP. thanks! -saurabh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 16 00:24:36 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA20805 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2D33FC699D; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAADha47j; Tue, 16 Oct 01 00:22:03 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id AAA22605 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian02.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.11]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22601 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id EBB61C6909; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web13802.mail.yahoo.com(216.136.175.12) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAZjay_h; Tue, 16 Oct 01 00:11:53 -0400 Message-ID: <20011016041153.53242.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.104.212.252] by web13802.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:11:53 PDT Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:11:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Saurabh Shrivastava Subject: resending - interface/route deletion To: Saurabh Shrivastava , tcp-impl@lerc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <20011016034414.90476.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk hi!, Q1 when an interface goes down, and there are still tcp sessions going thru it, what happens ? Q2 when a TCP session is using a route (struct route * stored is in in_pcb) and that route gets removed, what happens ? can someone please point me to the code which handles these events in TCP. thanks! -saurabh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 24 01:05:51 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA01113 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:05:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 53C36640E3; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAMWaiAd; Wed, 24 Oct 01 01:05:52 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id AAA23425 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA23421 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id AAA19466 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 6E559C68FE; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from minotaur.nge.isi.edu(65.114.169.202) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAIVaaa4; Wed, 24 Oct 01 00:49:29 -0400 Received: from minotaur (mankin@localhost) by minotaur.nge.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9O4nSk02814 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:49:28 -0400 Message-Id: <200110240449.f9O4nSk02814@minotaur.nge.isi.edu> To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: TCP implementation/interpretation questions Reply-To: mankin@ISI.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 1.7) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:49:27 -0400 From: Allison Mankin Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Folks, This list was alive in the summer, I know. I stated on tsvwg that it would be better to ask implementation/interpretive TCP questions for discussion here than in TSVWG, where we should stick to our charter topics (and we chairs/ADs should do more list shepherding to help that). So this mail tests if you're still open and what people think of continuing the role. Thanks! Allison From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 24 10:34:13 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01542 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id BDDAC64101; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAztaqTF; Wed, 24 Oct 01 10:34:13 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA12008 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12004 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id JAA17750 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id C4B4B640D2; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from minotaur.nge.isi.edu(65.114.169.202) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAH8ayXl; Wed, 24 Oct 01 09:19:06 -0400 Received: from minotaur (mankin@localhost) by minotaur.nge.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9ODJ1m03365; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:19:01 -0400 Message-Id: <200110241319.f9ODJ1m03365@minotaur.nge.isi.edu> To: "Michael J. S. Smith (iReady)" Cc: mankin@ISI.EDU, tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Reply-To: mankin@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: TCP implementation/interpretation questions In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:30:03 -0700. <014801c15c87$9c01f980$bc34390a@mikesdell7500> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 1.7) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:19:01 -0400 From: Allison Mankin Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk It's been an IETF convention (as long as the maintainer was willing) to keep concluded WG lists open. The Secretariat gave us a resource for concluded working group charters (which is also useful) but it doesn't currently clearly advertise which ones have live mailing lists. At first it did not include the original subscription and archive info :(, but we got that corrected (the info is not there for tcp-impl, is there for ecm). > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/OLD/index.html How to advertise - we can do this for Transport, and I regret we have not till now. We'll put up a page at tsv.ietf.org with such lists and their info on them and let the community known on the several lists when the page is there. It will be linked from the ietf page as the ops and apps ones are. About TCP relation to new protocols: where necessary we will have a targeted effort - I've asked the RDMA folks to advertise their open mailing list on the ietf list and it has been several times, for instance, and we are talking about next steps for this in IETF now. The rdma list is found (including info on its open subscription and access - no registration needed) at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rdma Allison From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 24 10:34:44 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01582 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B7DD8C6932; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAhtaqpL; Wed, 24 Oct 01 10:34:13 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA01676 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01634 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id IAA14169 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id A941D640D3; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p5.usnyc1.stsn.com(199.106.216.5) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAATiaaOc; Wed, 24 Oct 01 08:32:21 -0400 Received: from mikesdell7500 ([10.57.52.188]) by nyc02.smtp.stsn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3779); Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:35:03 -0600 Message-ID: <014801c15c87$9c01f980$bc34390a@mikesdell7500> From: "Michael J. S. Smith (iReady)" To: Cc: References: <200110240449.f9O4nSk02814@minotaur.nge.isi.edu> Subject: Re: TCP implementation/interpretation questions Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:30:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2001 14:35:03.0546 (UTC) FILETIME=[117115A0:01C15C99] Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allison: I'd like to see tcp-impl continued and even advertised and thus used more. There are many TCP interpretation and implementation issues (and perhaps we could even include IP too) especially at higher networking speeds and with the introduction of new protocols that work closely with TCP (RDMA springs to mind). Is there an IETF mechanism to continue the list formally (and maintain an archival record, for example) without a specific current WG? Aloha Mike Smith CTO iReady ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison Mankin" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:49 PM Subject: TCP implementation/interpretation questions > Folks, > > This list was alive in the summer, I know. I stated on > tsvwg that it would be better to ask implementation/interpretive > TCP questions for discussion here than in TSVWG, where we > should stick to our charter topics (and we chairs/ADs should do > more list shepherding to help that). > > So this mail tests if you're still open and what people think > of continuing the role. > > Thanks! > > Allison > From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 24 12:18:33 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05191 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 6CCAEC6937; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA0ra4j0; Wed, 24 Oct 01 12:18:36 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA04107 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from guns.lerc.nasa.gov (guns.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.87.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA04097; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from guns.lerc.nasa.gov (mallman@localhost) by guns.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-local) id MAA32551; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:07:37 -0400 Message-Id: <200110241607.MAA32551@guns.lerc.nasa.gov> To: mankin@ISI.EDU From: Mark Allman Reply-To: mallman@grc.nasa.gov Cc: "Michael J. S. Smith (iReady)" , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: TCP implementation/interpretation questions Organization: BBN Technologies/NASA GRC Song-of-the-Day: Walking in Memphis Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:07:37 -0400 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Allison, et. al.- > It's been an IETF convention (as long as the maintainer > was willing) to keep concluded WG lists open. The maintainer is willing. There has never been an issue with keeping this list open and I do not expect any. allman --- Mark Allman -- BBN/NASA GRC -- http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~mallman/ From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 24 13:18:20 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07217 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 649DAC6945; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAv_a4_c; Wed, 24 Oct 01 13:17:42 -0400 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id NAA20040 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20027 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id NAA12955 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 22066C696E; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tnt.isi.edu(128.9.128.128) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAVTa48h; Wed, 24 Oct 01 13:06:49 -0400 Received: from gra.isi.edu (gra.isi.edu [128.9.160.133]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f9OH6mg02337; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:06:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Braden Received: (from braden@localhost) by gra.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id RAA20001; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:06:48 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:06:48 GMT Message-Id: <200110241706.RAA20001@gra.isi.edu> To: mankin@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: TCP implementation/interpretation questions Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk A msg to end2end-interest advertising tcp-impl as the place for detailed TCP questions would be appropriate. Bob Braden From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 09:56:19 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02902 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 52502C69B6; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAABhaqGl; Tue, 30 Oct 01 09:54:19 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA03083 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA03022 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:19:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id IAA23767 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 62E586410E; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se(194.237.142.110) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA5waaRO; Tue, 30 Oct 01 08:17:31 -0500 Received: from aachen.eed.ericsson.se (aachen.eed.ericsson.se [164.48.130.2]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f9UDHPC28174 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:17:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from res0010384da36.ericsson.com (dhcp5-155 [164.48.135.155]) by aachen.eed.ericsson.se (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06521 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:17:24 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030131636.01d16330@chapelle.ericsson.se> X-Sender: eedrel@chapelle.ericsson.se X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:18:01 +0100 To: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov From: Reiner Ludwig Subject: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Hi, does anybody know if there are TCP implementations out there *today* that simply copy the bits of the TCP Reserved field from the SYN into the SYN-ACK? This is relevant when thinking about how to negotiate the use of a single bit from the TCP Reserved field assuming that it would be allocated at some point in the future. ///Reiner From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 10:13:21 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03439 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 1CFF9640BE; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAbiaO4g; Tue, 30 Oct 01 10:13:21 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA26733 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26722 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id JAA02845 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:57:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 4D6AB64112; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from colin.muc.de(193.149.48.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAANVayZb; Tue, 30 Oct 01 09:55:59 -0500 Received: by colin.muc.de id <140572-3>; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:56:20 +0100 Message-ID: <20011030155612.03916@colin.muc.de> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:56:13 +0100 From: Andi Kleen To: Reiner Ludwig Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030131636.01d16330@chapelle.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030131636.01d16330@chapelle.ericsson.se>; from Reiner Ludwig on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 02:18:01PM +0100 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 02:18:01PM +0100, Reiner Ludwig wrote: > Hi, > > does anybody know if there are TCP implementations out there *today* that > simply copy the bits of the TCP Reserved field from the SYN into the SYN-ACK? Older Linux does that. -Andi From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 10:17:42 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03600 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id ABCBDC6AE4; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAATRaG5s; Tue, 30 Oct 01 10:15:02 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA28307 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA28287 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id KAA03417 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 58C37C697A; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAnpaGHn; Tue, 30 Oct 01 09:58:49 -0500 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15yaSM-0006j2-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:05:34 +0000 Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK To: Reiner.Ludwig@Ericsson.com (Reiner Ludwig) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:05:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030131636.01d16330@chapelle.ericsson.se> from "Reiner Ludwig" at Oct 30, 2001 02:18:01 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > does anybody know if there are TCP implementations out there *today* that > simply copy the bits of the TCP Reserved field from the SYN into the SYN-ACK? Afraid so. Unfortunately I'm kind of the guilty party who let it out 8( > This is relevant when thinking about how to negotiate the use of a single > bit from the TCP Reserved field assuming that it would be allocated at some > point in the future. Linux 2.0.x has this problem (2.2/2.4 behave) and there are still 2.0 boxes around. Alan From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 15:03:34 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13235 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 962CD640BA; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAVTaymh; Tue, 30 Oct 01 15:03:36 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id OAA15804 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA15790 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id OAA03752 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id CA2F1C68FF; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA9faGDz; Tue, 30 Oct 01 14:48:28 -0500 Received: from isi.edu (sci.isi.edu [128.9.160.93]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f9UJmPO07281; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:48:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BDF0408.904@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:48:24 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Reiner Ludwig Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030131636.01d16330@chapelle.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reiner Ludwig wrote: > Hi, > > does anybody know if there are TCP implementations out there *today* > that simply copy the bits of the TCP Reserved field from the SYN into > the SYN-ACK? > > This is relevant when thinking about how to negotiate the use of a > single bit from the TCP Reserved field assuming that it would be > allocated at some point in the future. Notably about ECN - ECN requires that a non-ECN receiver respond with all-zeroes ECN bits. Copying the bits on the return path is a violation of ECN - (Page 14): * If a host has received an ECN-setup SYN packet, then it MAY send an ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. Otherwise, it MUST NOT send an ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 17:12:15 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15910 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id A8837C6978; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:09:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAx5aal3; Tue, 30 Oct 01 17:09:01 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id QAA14801 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14793 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id QAA15698 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2EAC1C68FA; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org(192.150.187.21) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAFoaGP0; Tue, 30 Oct 01 16:56:57 -0500 Received: from elk.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elk.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9ULvTr27960; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:57:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from floyd@elk.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200110302157.f9ULvTr27960@elk.aciri.org> To: Joe Touch Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov From: Sally Floyd Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:57:29 -0800 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Joe - >Notably about ECN - ECN requires that a non-ECN receiver respond with >all-zeroes ECN bits. Copying the bits on the return path is a violation >of ECN - > >(Page 14): > * If a host has received an ECN-setup SYN packet, then it MAY send > an ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. Otherwise, it MUST NOT send an > ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. Actually, the ECN spec does not say anything one way or another about copying the bits of the TCP Reserved field from the SYN into the SYN-ACK. It just makes sure that its negotiation of ECN-capability is robust even in the presence of TCP receivers that do just copy the bits. ECN does *not* require that a non-ECN receiver respond with all-zeroes ECN bits. That is, ECN took some care to make sure that the ECN bits set from the Reserved field in the ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet are not the same as the ECN bits set in the ECN-setup SYN packet. So, if the receiver just copies the bits from the Reserved field from the SYN packet into the SYN-ACK packet, this is not interpreted by the TCP sender as negotiating ECN. I would say that if you have only a single bit, then copying that bit from the SYN to the SYN-ACK packet is not an acceptably robust way to negotiate something. - Sally http://www.aciri.org/floyd/ From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 18:17:28 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16941 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 4F69CC6982; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:14:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAg1aavi; Tue, 30 Oct 01 18:14:21 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA26253 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA26249 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id SAA21552 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 123CDC68FF; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAARna4tg; Tue, 30 Oct 01 18:03:02 -0500 Received: from isi.edu (sci.isi.edu [128.9.160.93]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f9UN31O06665; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:03:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BDF31A4.2040900@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:03:00 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sally Floyd Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK References: <200110302157.f9ULvTr27960@elk.aciri.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Floyd wrote: > Joe - > > >>Notably about ECN - ECN requires that a non-ECN receiver respond with >>all-zeroes ECN bits. Copying the bits on the return path is a violation >>of ECN - >> >>(Page 14): >> * If a host has received an ECN-setup SYN packet, then it MAY send >> an ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. Otherwise, it MUST NOT send an >> ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. >> > > Actually, the ECN spec does not say anything one way or another > about copying the bits of the TCP Reserved field from the SYN into > the SYN-ACK. It just makes sure that its negotiation of ECN-capability > is robust even in the presence of TCP receivers that do just copy > the bits. ECN does *not* require that a non-ECN receiver respond with > all-zeroes ECN bits. > > That is, ECN took some care to make sure that the ECN bits set from > the Reserved field in the ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet are not the same > as the ECN bits set in the ECN-setup SYN packet. So, if the receiver > just copies the bits from the Reserved field from the SYN packet > into the SYN-ACK packet, this is not interpreted by the TCP sender > as negotiating ECN. Thanks - missed that. Got lost in the 3-letter acronyms. > I would say that if you have only a single bit, then copying that > bit from the SYN to the SYN-ACK packet is not an acceptably robust > way to negotiate something. Yes - however, TCP did require that the bits be 0 on send, so... :-) Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 18:42:41 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17183 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 2302EC693F; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAZeaiHn; Tue, 30 Oct 01 18:42:41 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA00668 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA00656 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id SAA23910 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 92255C692E; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from nicol6.umkc.edu(134.193.4.67) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAyYaGNl; Tue, 30 Oct 01 18:31:04 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=umkc.edu ident=david) by nicol6.umkc.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15yiLM-00008S-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:30:52 -0600 Message-ID: <3BDF382C.F5037573@umkc.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:30:52 -0600 From: David Nicol X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch Cc: Sally Floyd , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK References: <200110302157.f9ULvTr27960@elk.aciri.org> <3BDF31A4.2040900@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would a host responding to a timeout while waiting for an ECN SYN-ACK by sending a non-ECN SYN break anything? -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 there are no troops outside the gates of eden http://wmbr.mit.edu/wmbr.ram From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 18:59:01 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17382 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id B985CC6987; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAzqa42q; Tue, 30 Oct 01 18:58:16 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA03109 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03084 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id SAA25154 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:49:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 013C564128; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAUNaaAV; Tue, 30 Oct 01 18:46:33 -0500 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15yigE-0001jx-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:52:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK To: nicold@umkc.edu (David Nicol) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:52:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: touch@ISI.EDU (Joe Touch), floyd@aciri.org (Sally Floyd), tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <3BDF382C.F5037573@umkc.edu> from "David Nicol" at Oct 30, 2001 05:30:52 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would a host responding to a timeout while waiting for an ECN SYN-ACK > by sending a non-ECN SYN break anything? Your user has already pressed "reload" five times by then. Alan From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 19:19:21 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17539 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id BD087C6A0B; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAA1laqev; Tue, 30 Oct 01 19:15:32 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id TAA05530 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA05512 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id TAA26358 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id CFD496411D; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org(192.150.187.21) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAzsaGuZ; Tue, 30 Oct 01 19:03:07 -0500 Received: from elk.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elk.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9V03dr28973; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:03:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from floyd@elk.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200110310003.f9V03dr28973@elk.aciri.org> To: David Nicol Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov From: Sally Floyd Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:03:39 -0800 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk >Would a host responding to a timeout while waiting for an ECN SYN-ACK >by sending a non-ECN SYN break anything? That is explicitly allowed in the ECN standard. And I would recommend it. This was motivated by the unfortunate presence of firewalls and load-balancers in the network that either drop ECN SYN packets or respond with a Reset. Section 6.1.1.1 of RFC 3168. Ah, the joys of dealing with the real world... - Sally http://www.aciri.org/floyd/ From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 19:59:16 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18000 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5CE62640F1; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAq9aaZb; Tue, 30 Oct 01 19:59:17 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id TAA12599 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA12573 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id TAA00248 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id D3562C691D; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu(128.9.160.161) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAcUaa7z; Tue, 30 Oct 01 19:46:42 -0500 Received: from isi.edu (sci.isi.edu [128.9.160.93]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f9V0kZO06248; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:46:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BDF49EA.2000405@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:46:34 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sally Floyd Cc: David Nicol , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK References: <200110310003.f9V03dr28973@elk.aciri.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Floyd wrote: >>Would a host responding to a timeout while waiting for an ECN SYN-ACK >>by sending a non-ECN SYN break anything? >> > > That is explicitly allowed in the ECN standard. And I would > recommend it. This was motivated by the unfortunate presence of > firewalls and load-balancers in the network that either drop ECN > SYN packets or respond with a Reset. > > Section 6.1.1.1 of RFC 3168. Ah, the joys of dealing with the > real world... Is there anything preventing sending both SYNs at the same time? (that way the timeout could be avoided, and the unused connection could be RST). Joe From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 20:17:26 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18155 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 0FB98C698C; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAALZaySE; Tue, 30 Oct 01 20:14:25 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id UAA14910 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA14895 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id UAA01373 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 4AFF6C68FB; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lightning.swansea.linux.org.uk(194.168.151.1) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAfVaO9C; Tue, 30 Oct 01 20:02:32 -0500 Received: from alan by the-village.bc.nu with local (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15yjsA-0001yL-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:08:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK To: touch@ISI.EDU (Joe Touch) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:08:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: floyd@aciri.org (Sally Floyd), nicold@umkc.edu (David Nicol), tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <3BDF49EA.2000405@isi.edu> from "Joe Touch" at Oct 30, 2001 04:46:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is there anything preventing sending both SYNs at the same time? > (that way the timeout could be avoided, and the unused connection could > be RST). Servers that create sessions and piggy back data onto the syn|ack might not be too happy. Also a lot of firewalls will drop the RST. Another question to ask perhaps the important one - for a typical connection does the overhead of building two connections and shooting one exceed the gain from using ECN in the first place. Alan From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 20:18:15 2001 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18167 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 4409A641DC; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAARhaGjh; Tue, 30 Oct 01 20:15:49 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id UAA15053 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA15042 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id UAA01449 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 0C6FE6412F; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org(192.150.187.21) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAhSaqFc; Tue, 30 Oct 01 20:00:25 -0500 Received: from elk.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elk.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9V10vr29415; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from floyd@elk.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200110310100.f9V10vr29415@elk.aciri.org> To: Joe Touch Cc: tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov From: Sally Floyd Subject: Re: Copy of reserved bits from SYN into SYN-ACK Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:00:57 -0800 Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Joe - >Is there anything preventing sending both SYNs at the same time? >(that way the timeout could be avoided, and the unused connection could >be RST). You could do it, but it wouldn't get you what you wanted in the general case (e.g., without the RST). From Section 6.1.1 of RFC 3168: * A host MUST NOT set ECT on data packets unless it has sent at least one ECN-setup SYN or ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet, and has received at least one ECN-setup SYN or ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet, and has sent no non-ECN-setup SYN or non-ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet. If a host has received at least one non-ECN-setup SYN or non-ECN-setup SYN-ACK packet, then it SHOULD NOT set ECT on data packets. - Sally http://www.aciri.org/floyd/ From owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 30 20:47:42 2001 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18465 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 5E698C69DB; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov(139.88.112.33) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAszaqjL; Tue, 30 Oct 01 20:47:02 -0500 Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id UAA20196 for tcp-impl-outgoing; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (acs-viruswall.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.21]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA20177 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acs-viruswall.grc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.11.x) with ESMTP id UAA04056 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 5) id 3AD6B640F7; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from nicol6.umkc.edu(134.193.4.67) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAiaaW5k; Tue, 30 Oct 01 20:36:46 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=umkc.edu ident=david) by nicol6.umkc.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15ykIx-0000Dy-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:36:31 -0600 Message-ID: <3BDF559F.7D58092B@umkc.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:36:31 -0600 From: David Nicol X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch Cc: Sally Floyd , tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Talkin' bout ECN SYN References: <200110310003.f9V03dr28973@elk.aciri.org> <3BDF49EA.2000405@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcp-impl@grc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked: > >Would a host responding to a timeout while waiting for an ECN SYN-ACK > >by sending a non-ECN SYN break anything? > > Sally Floyd wrote, from the real world : > That is explicitly allowed in the ECN standard. And I would > recommend it. Yet it does not appear to happen with linux ECN :( perhaps by continuing to suggest this someone else will write the patch :) Alan Cox wrote, from a position of omniscience: > Your user has already pressed "reload" five times by then. Yet another purpose for the (proposed)per-peer IP data cache, along with preferred window size Joe Touch wrote, from a lesser conceptual space: > Is there anything preventing sending both SYNs at the same time? > (that way the timeout could be avoided, and the unused connection could > be RST). how do you differentiate this from opening two channels at once? Oh, obviously, they have the same local port number, so it would look like a duplicated SYN to the non-initiated Alan Cox responded: > Another question to ask perhaps the important one - for a typical connection > does the overhead of building two connections and shooting one exceed the > gain from using ECN in the first place. we're not building a second connection, we're sending a duplicate SYN packet with different option bits. -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 there are no troops outside the gates of eden http://wmbr.mit.edu/wmbr.ram