From mailman-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 1 07:29:31 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA19610 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CDLjt-0004ts-P1 for tools-discuss-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:38:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CDJq1-00013u-Lh for tools-discuss-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 05:36:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: tools-discuss-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 05:15:24 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Mailman site list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, mailman-request@ietf.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. ********************************************************************** NOTE WELL: Any submission to the IETF intended by the Contributor for publication as all or part of an IETF Internet-Draft or RFC and any statement made within the context of an IETF activity is considered an "IETF Contribution". Such statements include oral statements in IETF sessions, as well as written and electronic communications made at any time or place, which are addressed to: o the IETF plenary session, o any IETF working group or portion thereof, o the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG, o the IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB, o any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any working group or design team list, or any other list functioning under IETF auspices, o the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function All IETF Contributions are subject to the rules of RFC 3667 and RFC 3668. Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list or other function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group or function, are not IETF Contributions in the context of this notice. Please consult RFC 3667 for details. ******************************************************************************* If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@ietf.org. Thanks! Passwords for tools-discuss-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- tools-discuss@ietf.org teevas https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss/tools-discuss-archive%40ietf.org From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 11:27:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04348; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM6yh-0000Mp-5I; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:41:48 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM6j6-00008e-CN; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:25:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM6iU-0008Up-PA for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:25:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03961 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM6vu-0000Im-Nw for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:38:58 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9PFOvJ2003659 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:24:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:24:56 -0600 To: "IETF TOOLS discussion" References: From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am not sure why extra line breaks appear in the case quoted below. Using Pine, I have never had that problem with attachments. Perhaps others know what is going on here. This is something we may want to check for the email interface of the ID submission tool... Alex. ------- Forwarded message ------- From: "Pekka Savola" To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: newtrk@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: [newtrk] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-savola-ipr-lastcall-04.txt (fwd) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:44:14 +0300 (EEST) On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > 1) Fix the double blank line problem. This is actually caused by by the IETF secretariat, I think, due to the way they process email attachments. I send them a draft with single line breaks, but the output always has two. I guess I should try to send them a link rather than an attachment.. ... _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 18:02:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23033; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMD8U-00052X-Ss; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:16:19 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMBS3-0001QU-Ty; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:28:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMB0w-0004Ee-BR for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:00:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28897 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMBES-0006Jl-1t for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:14:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7ABD1CD88E for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17534-04 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3521CD884 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:00:19 -0400 (EDT) To: "IETF TOOLS discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 25 Oct 2004 16:00:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > I am not sure why extra line breaks appear in the case quoted > below. Using Pine, I have never had that problem with > attachments. Perhaps others know what is going on here. This is > something we may want to check for the email interface of the ID > submission tool... Messages from john.loughney@nokia.com seem to be generated with Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0. If they are stored in DOS format locally, the DOS newlines are probably encoded by the client *if* the draft is sent in base64 rather than quoted-printable (or with no protection). At this point, draft-savola-ipr-lastcall-04.txt is a deletion notice, so it's difficult to see what was going on. I don't have a message with an attachment from John Loughney, either. I think making the submission tool convert any newlines (\n, \r\n, \r, and \n\r) into \n would not be a bad idea. This applies equally to web and email submissions. (In fact, it might even be more important for web submissions, as unprotected email takes care of canonicalizing new lines -- except when sent through base64.) Conceptually, #include enum state_enum {NORM, N, R, RN}; typedef enum state_enum state_t; #define NORMAL do { \ state = NORM; \ putchar('\n'); \ } while (0) int main() { int c; /* Current character. */ state_t state; state = NORM; while ((c = getchar()) != EOF) switch (state) { case NORM: if (c == '\n') state = N; else if (c == '\r') state = R; else putchar(c); break; case N: NORMAL; if (c != '\r') putchar(c); break; case R: NORMAL; if (c != '\n') putchar(c); break; } if (state != NORM) NORMAL; exit(0); } -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Just my 0.086g of Ag. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 22:30:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02218; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMHKJ-0007lG-6T; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:44:48 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMH4P-0005w8-Ig; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:28:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMGxj-0004RJ-Dg for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:21:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01753 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMHBH-0007cl-MA for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:35:29 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9Q2LPJ2034494; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:21:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9Q2LPIK034493; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:21:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:21:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail In-Reply-To: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041025200611.R32644@measurement-factory.com> References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > I think making the submission tool convert any newlines (\n, \r\n, > \r, and \n\r) into \n would not be a bad idea. This applies equally > to web and email submissions. (In fact, it might even be more > important for web submissions, as unprotected email takes care of > canonicalizing new lines -- except when sent through base64.) IMO, "fixes" and "corrections" of that kind are the wrong approach in general. The Toolset should show how the submitted draft looks like and should warn if it finds strange end-of-line characters. If it looks bad or there are warnings, the submitter should be responsible for applying the right encoding, transformations, etc. to get the results they want. I cannot prove or even quantify it, of course, but I believe that complain-but-dont-fix-it approach results in a more compact, less buggy, and cheaper tools compared to a lets-try-to-fix-what-we-can approach. There are always exceptions to general rules, of course. However, I think we tend to bloat the Toolset with features that may look like a 10-line hack now, but have a tendency to grow beyond belief later. Apologies for the rant. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 00:31:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11034; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMJDS-0001fF-BP; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:45:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMIz5-0004WA-Ey; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:30:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMIyG-0004LJ-UQ for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:30:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10950 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMJBp-0001cM-Rm for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:44:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i9Q4TRp03937; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:29:27 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:29:27 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail In-Reply-To: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 This is probably getting a bit off-list, but I think a clarification is deserved.. On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > "Alex Rousskov" writes: >> I am not sure why extra line breaks appear in the case quoted >> below. Using Pine, I have never had that problem with >> attachments. Perhaps others know what is going on here. This is >> something we may want to check for the email interface of the ID >> submission tool... > > Messages from john.loughney@nokia.com seem to be generated with > Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0. If they are stored in DOS format > locally, the DOS newlines are probably encoded by the client *if* the > draft is sent in base64 rather than quoted-printable (or with no > protection). > > At this point, draft-savola-ipr-lastcall-04.txt is a deletion notice, > so it's difficult to see what was going on. I don't have a message > with an attachment from John Loughney, either. The quoting was probably a bit off; the problem was with my attachments. I'm sending them off from a Linux system, using pine, as Alex is using. The versions which I put on my local web page are just fine, but the result that the secretariat posts is mangled. So something is happening between when I attach the draft and when the secretariat posts them. Pine sends the attachments in base64. I've looked at the actual attachment sent, and undecoded it manually, and it has ^M sequence at the end of lines. The originals are available at http://www.netcore.fi/pekkas/ietf/. I've also temporarily zipped up one of them to preserve the control characters. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 01:02:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA12649; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMJgl-0002Aw-Bt; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:16:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMJOH-0001AC-20; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:57:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMJM4-0000jY-LJ for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:54:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12187 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob6.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.216] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMJZQ-000218-FD for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:08:47 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob6.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:54:00 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9Q4nfQY023055; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9Q4sO0S029718; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.131]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I66005ATDMOS7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:54:22 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail In-reply-to: <20041025200611.R32644@measurement-factory.com> To: "'Alex Rousskov'" , "'stanislav shalunov'" Message-id: <0I66005AUDMOS7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcS7A8uyrPxL7UnaS1yjnUYQ8VmiswAE5W6A X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: "'IETF TOOLS discussion'" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > IMO, "fixes" and "corrections" of that kind are the wrong approach in > general. If you're designing systems to interoperate with other systems, then "be tolerant in what you accept" can lead to encouraging future interoperability problems. However, if you're designing a system to be usable by people -- and mainly people who use the system infrequently, at most once every few months -- then building the system so that it tolerates common user errors is the only reasonable way to go. It's very common that systems use different EOL conventions, and that files sent as attachments rather than mail bodies aren't canonicalized. So I disagree with your rant. Tools should be designed so that the typical IETF user isn't confronted with meaningless and useless error messages in the typical cases we are expected to encounter. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 01:14:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA13187; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMJt9-0002Km-9w; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:28:55 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMJeS-0004TC-8u; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:13:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMJbh-00045Z-6p for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:10:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA13038 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyteen.hactrn.net ([66.92.66.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMJpH-0002HG-Nv for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:24:56 -0400 Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (thrintun.hactrn.net [IPv6:2002:425c:4242:0:250:daff:fe82:1c39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "thrintun.hactrn.net", Issuer "Grunchweather Associates" (verified OK)) by cyteen.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1940A108 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thrintun.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E5442B5 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:10:18 -0400 From: Rob Austein To: IETF TOOLS discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail In-Reply-To: References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20041026051018.61E5442B5@thrintun.hactrn.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 as far as i can tell from the mime specs, the canonical form of any text/whatever body part -should- have crlf line termination, but the specs hint that support for this has historically been somewhat lame, particularly with base64 transfer encoding. so whatever happened to the draft in question was probably the result of wandering through a twisty little maze of bugs that usually cancel each other out but which, for some reason, failed to do so in this particular case. i would be pleasantly surprised if a web-based submission tool did not run into similar issues, so while i sympathize with alex's comment about ten line hacks turning into maintenance nightmares, it is probably not acceptable to create a submission tool that can't handle whatever shows up when one submits what passes for ascii text on one of the major operating systems using the commonly used web browsers on those same operating systems. so i suspect that something along the lines of what stanislav suggested will be necessary. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 02:06:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA22639; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMKgn-00038Y-Po; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:20:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMKQa-0005Cw-Dt; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:03:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMKOw-00044c-Fu for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:01:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17981 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMKcW-00033H-9c for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:15:49 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i9Q61C605737 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:01:13 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:01:12 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Subject: [Tools-discuss] ID-nits and references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Hi, This comes up very often in the RFC-editor process, and I thought it might be useful to have a tool for noticing this. a) Very often, there are references in the References sections which aren't referred to in the body of the memo. b) Also often (but maybe less so), there are references in the body of the text which do not exist under the References sections. These cause some amount of exchange with the authors and the RFC-editor, and should be more easily noticed in the document development process. I don't know what would be the right place for this, 1) the idnits tool by Henrik, 2) Bill Fenner's dependency tool [http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/deps/index.cgi] which can already do (indirectly) at least b) 3) something else -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 03:23:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA05458; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMLu8-0004K9-R5; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:38:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMLfu-0003cD-1r; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:23:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMLZR-0002CO-Ek for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:16:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04750 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop.gmx.de ([213.165.64.20] helo=mail.gmx.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMLn2-00048g-Nr for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:30:45 -0400 Received: (qmail 23855 invoked by uid 65534); 26 Oct 2004 07:16:06 -0000 Received: from pD9535E7A.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) (217.83.94.122) by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 26 Oct 2004 09:16:06 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <417DF9B1.5030809@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:16:01 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pekka Savola wrote: > The quoting was probably a bit off; the problem was with my > attachments. I'm sending them off from a Linux system, using pine, as > Alex is using. The versions which I put on my local web page are just > fine, but the result that the secretariat posts is mangled. So > something is happening between when I attach the draft and when the > secretariat posts them. > > Pine sends the attachments in base64. I've looked at the actual > attachment sent, and undecoded it manually, and it has ^M sequence at > the end of lines. The originals are available at > http://www.netcore.fi/pekkas/ietf/. I've also temporarily zipped up one > of them to preserve the control characters. I've seen the same problem with drafts sent from Thunderbird on W2K. The problem doesn't seem to be reproducable, though, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 10:30:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA09635; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMSZ9-00049Z-TT; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:44:53 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMSEj-0007Yv-Fe; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:23:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMSDB-0006ZB-Ml for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:22:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08914 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from diotima.switch.ch ([130.59.4.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMSQr-0003zB-0d for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:36:17 -0400 Received: from diotima.switch.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by diotima.switch.ch (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9QELRJc014031 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-DSS-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:21:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from leinen@localhost) by diotima.switch.ch (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i9QELQA1014030; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:21:26 +0200 (CEST) To: Pekka Savola Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail X-Face: 1Nk*r=:$IBBb8|TyRB'2WSY6u:BzMO7N)#id#-4_}MsU5?vTI?dez|JiutW4sKBLjp.l7, F 7QOld^hORRtpCUj)!cP]gtK_SyK5FW(+o"!or:v^C^]OxX^3+IPd\z, @ttmwYVO7l`6OXXYR` From: Simon Leinen In-Reply-To: (Pekka Savola's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:29:27 +0300 (EEST)") References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:21:26 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (usg-unix-v) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Pekka Savola writes: > Pine sends the attachments in base64. I've looked at the actual > attachment sent, and undecoded it manually, and it has ^M sequence > at the end of lines. Hm, do you mean it had CR CR LF as the line separator? Or did it use CR LF as the line separator, and your local system uses LF as the line separator? In the first case the encoding was incorrect, in the second case you should have converted from the "canonical" to your local line-break encoding. See RFC 2046 section 4.1.1. > The originals are available at http://www.netcore.fi/pekkas/ietf/. > I've also temporarily zipped up one of them to preserve the control > characters. Yes, those files use the Unix convention (LF as line break). Personally I prefer that one too, but such files will look funny on machines with other line-break representations. I don't know how HTTP handles this issue, but mail (MIME) and FTP (text mode) fortunately have well-defined line-preserving ways to transfer text :-) -- Simon. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 11:42:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16561; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMTgy-0005s3-Da; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:57:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMTM1-0003ZZ-TO; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:35:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMTL4-00031l-EG for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:34:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15459 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMTYh-0005ZQ-90 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:48:29 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9QFY7J2063894; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:34:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Pekka Savola" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ID-nits and references References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:34:06 -0600 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Henrik, Would you mind adding the functionality described below to your XML database? It does not have to be a stand-alone tool, of course, but I want to make sure we do not forget. Thank you, Alex. On Tue, 2004/10/26 (MDT), wrote: > This comes up very often in the RFC-editor process, and I thought it > might be useful to have a tool for noticing this. > > a) Very often, there are references in the References sections which > aren't referred to in the body of the memo. > > b) Also often (but maybe less so), there are references in the body of > the text which do not exist under the References sections. > > These cause some amount of exchange with the authors and the RFC-editor, > and should be more easily noticed in the document development process. > > I don't know what would be the right place for this, > 1) the idnits tool by Henrik, > 2) Bill Fenner's dependency tool > [http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/deps/index.cgi] which can already do > (indirectly) at least b) > 3) something else > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 11:58:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18093; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMTvw-0006If-NH; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:12:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMTel-0007yM-Cn; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:54:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMTc3-0007B5-VY for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:51:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17556 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMTpk-000693-Ls for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:06:05 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9QFpsJ2064607 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:51:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:51:53 -0600 To: "'IETF TOOLS discussion'" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <0I66005AUDMOS7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0I66005AUDMOS7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2004/10/25 (MDT), wrote: > Tools should be designed > so that the typical IETF user isn't confronted with meaningless and > useless error messages in the typical cases we are expected to encounter. On Mon, 2004/10/25 (MDT), wrote: > while i sympathize with alex's comment > about ten line hacks turning into maintenance nightmares, it is > probably not acceptable to create a submission tool that can't handle > whatever shows up when one submits what passes for ascii text on one > of the major operating systems using the commonly used web browsers on > those same operating systems. Just to clarify: I was ranting about the general approach/trend that I am worried about, not a specific ten-line hack (or it would not be a rant). In other words, we should auto-fix only when there is a single correct fix; and we should evaluate a feature based on its overall importance and usefulness rather than just on the number of code lines it takes to hack its alpha version in. Not everything that takes 10 lines of Perl should be accepted and not everything that takes 10K LOC should be rejected. Hack length is a [minor] factor, but there are other factors. When I saw two ten-line hack examples (in a couple of days) possibly used as arguments for feature inclusion, I got worried and posted my rant. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 12:58:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22586; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMUs1-0007Ry-8W; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:12:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMUZ6-0006vX-ON; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:52:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMUUp-0005nS-Ec for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:48:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21981 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMUiT-0007Gc-A3 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:02:40 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530931CD9CB for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15229-02 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180DF1CD827 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:48:24 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041025200611.R32644@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 26 Oct 2004 12:48:44 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20041025200611.R32644@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86d5z5xw5v.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Alex Rousskov writes: > IMO, "fixes" and "corrections" of that kind are the wrong approach > in general. I subscribe to this sentiment in general, but don't think that applying it in this case (end of lines) is reasonable, given that different local end of line conventions are common and users would have considerable and unnecessary difficulty with the tool if it simply gave errors (pages too long, presumably) for DOS/network conventions. We already have a real-life example of a MUA that converts text files to non-'\n' ends of line, even though the MUA runs on Linux. The situation is analogous to SMTP MTAs: in general, SMTP is not supposed to fix up messages, reformat paragraphs, etc. In particular, however, MTAs treat ends of line differently from other characters, converting them to network standard before putting on the wire and to a local convention before delivery. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at 600dpi. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 13:30:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26692; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVNU-0000H0-WA; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:45:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMUue-00055D-30; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:15:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMUnn-0002xH-Fj for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:08:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24104 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMV1S-0007wt-3N for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:22:17 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B461CD9AE for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18304-01 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C701CD6CD for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:08:03 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 26 Oct 2004 13:08:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <868y9txv94.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Simon Leinen writes: > Or did it use CR LF as the line separator, and your local system uses > LF as the line separator? I'd assume it's this rather than CR CR LF. > In the first case the encoding was incorrect, in the second case you > should have converted from the "canonical" to your local line-break > encoding. See RFC 2046 section 4.1.1. By ``you'' you mean the Secretariat here, right? Because apparently the conversion to network ends of line was done by Pekka's Pine correctly. Seems like RFC 2046 section 4.1.1 tells us to cause the draft submission tool to do the conversion, if it's not already done by the underlying MIME parsing routine. The routine I posted is idempotent, so applying it to a text already treated for line breaks would do no harm. > Yes, those files use the Unix convention (LF as line break). The files in the repositories (both RFCs and I-Ds) now follow the LF convention. We should, of course, follow it. > Personally I prefer that one too, but such files will look funny on > machines with other line-break representations. Well, they view the I-Ds and RFCs now, somehow. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at an angle of 45 degrees. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 13:34:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27156; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVR7-0000OS-OQ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:48:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMV1C-0007aQ-DH; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:21:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMUsS-00043s-Bf for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:12:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24591 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMV68-000867-UL for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:27:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C0A1CDA02 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19156-02 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1197F1CD9AE for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:12:51 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 26 Oct 2004 13:13:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <864qkhxv14.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Pekka Savola writes: > The quoting was probably a bit off; the problem was with my > attachments. Ah, OK. > I'm sending them off from a Linux system, using pine, as Alex is > using. The versions which I put on my local web page are just fine, I just checked and they seem to have LF line breaks. > but the result that the secretariat posts is mangled. So something > is happening between when I attach the draft and when the > secretariat posts them. > > Pine sends the attachments in base64. I've looked at the actual > attachment sent, and undecoded it manually, and it has ^M sequence at > the end of lines. So, your MUA (quite correctly, according to RFC 2046 section 4.1.1) encoded line breaks in network format, and that caused the Secretariat to post them with mangled line breaks. Others say it happened before and isn't reproducible. I think it behooves us to make sure that the draft submission tool does not suffer from this problem. It should also continue to use LF for line breaks locally, as is currently done. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed in boustrophedon. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 13:59:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29273; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVoz-00011F-EJ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:13:26 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMVPJ-0005VR-Dj; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:46:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMVO1-00051q-4L for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:45:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27925 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20] helo=mail.gmx.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVbh-0000as-Ue for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:59:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 26503 invoked by uid 65534); 26 Oct 2004 17:44:58 -0000 Received: from p5082438E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.18]) (80.130.67.142) by mail.gmx.net (mp008) with SMTP; 26 Oct 2004 19:44:58 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <417E8D19.9090004@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:44:57 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <864qkhxv14.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <864qkhxv14.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stanislav shalunov wrote: > ... > So, your MUA (quite correctly, according to RFC 2046 section 4.1.1) > encoded line breaks in network format, and that caused the Secretariat > to post them with mangled line breaks. Others say it happened before > and isn't reproducible. I think it behooves us to make sure that the > draft submission tool does not suffer from this problem. It should > also continue to use LF for line breaks locally, as is currently done. Another thing I've seen is that TXT versions of drafts were published concatenated with their XML version. -- so the submitter probably sent two attachments, and for some reasons the receiving mail program didn't detect those properly. Maybe it's time to ask the Secretariat about what software they actually use? Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 14:08:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00109; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVyG-0001Gd-Kh; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMVba-0002lk-Sl; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:59:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMVWI-0008D2-M4 for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:54:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28682 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVjz-0000q8-Bp for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:08:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DFE1CD9F6 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26298-03 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED141CD710 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:54:04 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <864qkhxv14.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <417E8D19.9090004@gmx.de> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 26 Oct 2004 13:54:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: <417E8D19.9090004@gmx.de> Message-ID: <86wtxduzzj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Julian Reschke writes: > Another thing I've seen is that TXT versions of drafts were > published concatenated with their XML version. -- so the submitter > probably sent two attachments, and for some reasons the receiving > mail program didn't detect those properly. Interesting. That's a failure mode I would not expect in a typical MIME parser. If a MIME parser does that, it very clearly has a bug and needs to be fixed, so no need to put that into the draft submission tool requirements document. > Maybe it's time to ask the Secretariat about what software they > actually use? I'd say that's largely immaterial for the purposes of the present discussion. The draft submission tool should not end up in the same pitfalls as the current method. For this reason, knowledge of current pitfalls is important. The exact way of falling into one is not so important. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed with 0.06479891g of NaCl. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 14:28:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01567; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMWHZ-0001j6-Mz; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:42:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMW31-0008RJ-NS; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:27:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMVym-0007Qq-0c for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01216 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMWCT-0001bU-MS for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:37:41 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE62D1CD9D1 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31267-04 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F23E1CD919 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:30 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <0I66005AUDMOS7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 26 Oct 2004 14:23:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86oeipuymh.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > [...] we should auto-fix only when there is a single correct fix [...] I think that the situation with line breaks is just such. In fact, the MIME specs seem to require similar treatment in the MIME parser itself. Apparently, there exist MIME parsers that don't do it. > When I saw two ten-line hack examples (in a couple of days) possibly > used as arguments for feature inclusion, I got worried and posted my rant. It just seemed easiest to me to express what I wanted to say about line breaks in a formal language such as C. The fact that the program to canonicalize line breaks is small (or large, depending on perspective) is not important. Had I wanted a hack, I'd've posted the functionally equivalent Perl golfer's code: #!/usr/bin/perl -p0777 s-\n\r|\r\n|\r-\n-g -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Antibiotics comprise 2% of cow feed in U.S. feedlots, by weight. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 27 12:22:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19813; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMqmd-0000yl-TB; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:36:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMqUA-0000cW-Nc; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:17:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMqPK-0007By-DG for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:12:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19122 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMqdD-0000lx-6M for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:26:40 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9RGCBJ2027192; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:12:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] double new lines in drafts sent via e-mail References: <86llduzhy0.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <864qkhxv14.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <417E8D19.9090004@gmx.de> <86wtxduzzj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:12:10 -0600 In-Reply-To: <86wtxduzzj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 2004/10/26 (MDT), wrote: > Julian Reschke writes: > >> Maybe it's time to ask the Secretariat about what software they >> actually use? > > I'd say that's largely immaterial for the purposes of the present > discussion. The draft submission tool should not end up in the same > pitfalls as the current method. For this reason, knowledge of current > pitfalls is important. The exact way of falling into one is not so > important. Agreed. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 29 11:50:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10579; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNZFZ-0001wW-Da; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:05:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNYwK-00075w-L6; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:45:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMVm3-0004zt-93 for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:10:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00325 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ckmso2.att.com ([209.219.209.75] helo=ckmso2.proxy.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMVzj-0001Iz-Sj for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:24:33 -0400 Received: from maillennium.att.com ([135.25.114.99]) by ckmso2.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-5.5) with ESMTP id i9QI9oKB031807 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:09:50 -0400 Received: from [135.70.43.155] (unknown[135.70.43.155](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20041026181104gw100gog82e> (Authid: tony); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:11:05 +0000 Message-ID: <417E92EC.3000400@att.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:09:48 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ID-nits and references References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:45:19 -0400 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another case to be checked is a reference to a document that has been superceded or obsoleted by a newer versions of that document. (Of course, fixing such a reference shouldn't be handled through a simple edit. The newer document may have changed its ABNF definitions or made other incompatible changes that may need to be reflected in your document.) An automatic ABNF extractor and checker would be nice. This could be aided by having XML tags specifically designed for ABNF that indicated that the text was ABNF, and where some the externally-defined tags came from. Another check is verifying that there are normative references for the tags that come from other places. I know the RFC Editor does such extracts and verifications as part of their job, but it would be nice to have it checked before submission. Tony Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > This comes up very often in the RFC-editor process, and I thought it > might be useful to have a tool for noticing this. > > a) Very often, there are references in the References sections which > aren't referred to in the body of the memo. > > b) Also often (but maybe less so), there are references in the body of > the text which do not exist under the References sections. > > These cause some amount of exchange with the authors and the RFC-editor, > and should be more easily noticed in the document development process. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss