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Passwords for tools-discuss-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- tools-discuss@ietf.org teevas https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss/tools-discuss-archive%40ietf.org From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 03:10:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA24730; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 03:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COtzM-0002zC-FS; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 03:26:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COtf3-0008Rr-EI; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 03:05:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COmFK-0005Yg-M1; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:09:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24626; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COmUJ-0001HK-Ts; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:25:28 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[10.37.1.31]) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1COmFI-0001uu-00; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:09:56 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: avezza@mailbox.cnri.reston.va.us Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:09:16 -0500 To: IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion From: Albert Vezza Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 03:05:00 -0500 Cc: Dinara Suleymanova , Rebecca Bunch , Barbara Fuller Subject: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Dear IETF Participants: The Secretariat has received complaints that Internet-Drafts are being posted with formatting errors. One problem involves the concatenation of files, which sometimes occurs when multiple files are submitted as attachments to a single email message. In some cases, the attached files include two versions of the same I-D. In other cases, the attached files include two different I-Ds. Another problem involves the insertion of blank lines within an I-D. The Secretariat has been trying to understand why these problems are occurring. The insertion of blank lines is still under investigation. However, we have performed some experiments that we believe shed some light on the concatenation issue. Based on the results of these experiments, it appears that the concatenation of files stems from an incompatibility between the email composer software and the email reader software. In our experiments, we sent and received test messages using various combinations of the email clients Eudora, Pine, Netscape, and Apple's Mail. Each of the test messages included two text attachments. Please note that all four email clients use mime 1.0 and appear to correctly specify boundaries between body parts. The results of these experiments are summarized below. The number "1" indicates that both of the attachments were placed in-line, i.e., in the body of the email message, by the email reader software and were concatenated when viewed by the recipient. The number "2" indicates that the email reader software identified the attachments by name. And finally, the number "3" indicates that the email reader software created files of the attachments and placed them in an appropriate directory. (The last issue is a receiver-side action that has no bearing on this issue. It was included here only for completeness.) Eudora to Eudora 2, 3 Eudora to Netscape 1, 2 Eudora to Pine 2 Eudora to Mail 2 Pine to Pine 2 Pine to Eudora 2, 3 Pine to Netscape 1, 2 Pine to Mail 2 Netscape to Netscape 1, 2 Netscape to Eudora 1 Netscape to Pine 1, 2 Netscape to Mail 1 Mail to Mail 2 Mail to Eudora 2, 3 Mail to Pine 1, 2 Mail to Netscape 1, 2 When a message was sent from Eudora to Eudora, from Pine to Eudora, or from Mail to Eudora, the attachments were placed in the recipient's "Attachments" directory, and the recipient was notified that the message contained two attachments. Therefore, Eudora unwraps the files from the body when it is able to do so. When a message was sent from Eudora to Netscape, from Pine to Netscape, from Netscape to Netscape, from Netscape to Pine, from Mail to Pine, or from Mail to Netscape, the attachments were concatenated within the body of the message. However, the recipient was notified that the message contained two attachments and could easily find them within the message and save them. When a message was sent from Eudora to Pine, from Eudora to Mail, from Pine to Pine, from Pine to Mail, or from Mail to Mail, the recipient was notified that the message contained two attachments and could save them. But as you can see, when a message was sent from Netscape to either Eudora or Mail, the attachments were concatenated within the body of the message and the recipient was *not* notified that the message contained attachments. Therefore, there was no easy way to identify and save the attachments other than by scanning the message and screen-scraping the relevant parts. It would be interesting to see if the I-Ds that were concatenated were sent by a Netscape email composer, or by some other email composer that causes Eudora or Mail to not understand that some body parts should be unwrapped and identified as an attachment. (One possible clue...and we say possible because we have been unable to prove it...is the fact that Netscape uses 12 leading dashes "--" as part of the boundary specification.) If you have submitted multiple I-Ds that have been posted as a concatenation of I-Ds, then we would appreciate your letting us know what email composer you used when you submitted the I-Ds to the Secretariat. The I-D administrator at the Secretariat uses Eudora as an email client. When multiple I-Ds are placed in the body of a message, the only way that she can know that the submission contains more than one draft is if the sender indicates this in the message, or if the email reader software notifies her that there are multiple attachments. Until now, if neither of these events occurred, then the administrator assumed that the message contained a single I-D, and copied the entire contents of the message to a single file for posting. We considered having the I-D administrator switch email clients from Eudora to Netscape. However, there may be other email composers that are incompatible with Netscape and may cause similar problems in the future. Suggestions for how to solve this problem are welcome. Until we find a solution that corrects the problem without introducing other problems, the I-D administrator will manually check for multiple files within email messages whenever attachments are not specified. Needless to say, this is a time-consuming task, and will slow the processing of I-Ds. Albert Vezza and Barbara Fuller -- Albert Vezza President Foretec Seminars, Inc 1895 Preston White Drive Suite 100 Reston, VA 20191-5434 Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com Tel: (703) 620-9053 Fax: (703) 620-9071 Natick, MA Office Tel: (508) 650 4020 Fax: (508) 650 4639 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 14:25:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01195; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP4Wq-0002ze-22; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:41:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP46S-0006CM-6v; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:14:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP2qb-0007XN-7N; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:53:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17419; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP35j-0008U9-SR; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:09:13 -0500 Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HrKfJ014846; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffvpnc@mail.vpnc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:53:03 -0800 To: Albert Vezza , IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:13:58 -0500 Cc: Dinara Suleymanova , Rebecca Bunch , Barbara Fuller Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a At 7:09 PM -0500 11/1/04, Albert Vezza wrote: >Suggestions for how to solve this problem are welcome. A couple of things come to mind: - Keep an exact bit-copy of everything sent in on the server before delivering it to the mailbox; this is fairly easy with almost any mail server software running on a Unixy system. This is good practice for doing forensics after a mangle. - Process the attachments with a Perl script, not with a mail client. There are a zillion Perl modules for this, and your script could go ahead and change the text into the desired format (proper line endings, form feeds, and so on). Heck, it could even run the ID-nits tool! :-) Use the mail client to see what the Perl script caught and check for sanity (does the file name match what they said they were submitting, and so on), but don't expect any mail client to not mangle incoming text files. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 14:29:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01523; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP4al-000357-3P; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:45:20 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP4ET-0001oq-4C; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:22:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP453-0005gm-Pa for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:12:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00085 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP4KE-0002ey-2y for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:28:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E581CD687; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03474-02; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AD71CD677; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:29 -0500 (EST) To: Albert Vezza Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Nov 2004 14:12:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86oeig6p59.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: Dinara Suleymanova , Rebecca Bunch , Barbara Fuller , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Albert Vezza writes: > But as you can see, when a message was sent from Netscape to either > Eudora or Mail, the attachments were concatenated within the body of > the message and the recipient was *not* notified that the message > contained attachments. Therefore, there was no easy way to identify > and save the attachments other than by scanning the message and > screen-scraping the relevant parts. Albert, Thank you very much for the report! Would it be possible to save one offending message, unedited and unmodified by any MIME-processing software, in a text file and let us look at the file? (Maybe post it on the web somewhere.) Thank you very much, -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 18:41:37 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01589; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP8Wg-00026K-SV; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:57:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP89Y-0006kt-Cf; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:33:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP7sd-0006gg-H1; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:15:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA28926; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP87m-0001U3-RK; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:31:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7371761BDA; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:15:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13998-08; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:15:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B3961AD5; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:15:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:15:21 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Rohan Mahy , Albert Vezza Message-ID: <135FDC5A46F913887E912AF9@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21be852dc93f0971708678c18d38c096 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Barbara Fuller , WG Chairs , IESG , Tools Team Discussion , Rebecca Bunch , Dinara Suleymanova Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ee80a2074afbfe28d15369f4e74e579d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rohan, can you please check out draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06? I think other people have come to the same conclusion.... this is a topic for the General Area meeting at the upcoming IETF meeting. Harald --On tirsdag, november 02, 2004 13:40:50 -0800 Rohan Mahy wrote: > Hi, > > My proposal is to use a web form to submit internet-drafts instead of an > email. The form can automatically check for appropriate formatting, > boilerplate, and other ID nits, and return an immediate response > indicating the success or failure of the submission. The form could also > optionally check for WG chair approval for new WG IDs. The drafts that > pass the pre-check could be automatically included in the repository, or > quarantined for inspection and release by the secretariat staff. > > I realize that this approach has been discussed before and rejected for > historical reasons. I do not intend to start a debate on the merits of > using web pages instead of email, merely to publicly indicate my support > for the approach. > > thanks, > -rohan > > > > On Nov 1, 2004, at 16:09, Albert Vezza wrote: > >> Dear IETF Participants: >> >> The Secretariat has received complaints that Internet-Drafts are being >> posted with formatting errors. One problem involves the concatenation >> of files, which sometimes occurs when multiple files are submitted as >> attachments to a single email message. In some cases, the attached >> files include two versions of the same I-D. In other cases, the >> attached files include two different I-Ds. Another problem involves >> the insertion of blank lines within an I-D. >> >> The Secretariat has been trying to understand why these problems are >> occurring. The insertion of blank lines is still under investigation. >> However, we have performed some experiments that we believe shed some >> light on the concatenation issue. Based on the results of these >> experiments, it appears that the concatenation of files stems from an >> incompatibility between the email composer software and the email >> reader software. >> >> In our experiments, we sent and received test messages using various >> combinations of the email clients Eudora, Pine, Netscape, and Apple's >> Mail. Each of the test messages included two text attachments. Please >> note that all four email clients use mime 1.0 and appear to correctly >> specify boundaries between body parts. >> >> The results of these experiments are summarized below. The number "1" >> indicates that both of the attachments were placed in-line, i.e., in >> the body of the email message, by the email reader software and were >> concatenated when viewed by the recipient. The number "2" indicates >> that the email reader software identified the attachments by name. >> And finally, the number "3" indicates that the email reader software >> created files of the attachments and placed them in an appropriate >> directory. (The last issue is a receiver-side action that has no >> bearing on this issue. It was included here only for completeness.) >> >> Eudora to Eudora 2, 3 >> Eudora to Netscape 1, 2 >> Eudora to Pine 2 >> Eudora to Mail 2 >> >> Pine to Pine 2 >> Pine to Eudora 2, 3 >> Pine to Netscape 1, 2 >> Pine to Mail 2 >> >> Netscape to Netscape 1, 2 >> Netscape to Eudora 1 >> Netscape to Pine 1, 2 >> Netscape to Mail 1 >> >> Mail to Mail 2 >> Mail to Eudora 2, 3 >> Mail to Pine 1, 2 >> Mail to Netscape 1, 2 >> >> When a message was sent from Eudora to Eudora, from Pine to Eudora, or >> from Mail to Eudora, the attachments were placed in the recipient's >> "Attachments" directory, and the recipient was notified that the >> message contained two attachments. Therefore, Eudora unwraps the >> files from the body when it is able to do so. >> >> When a message was sent from Eudora to Netscape, from Pine to >> Netscape, from Netscape to Netscape, from Netscape to Pine, from Mail >> to Pine, or from Mail to Netscape, the attachments were concatenated >> within the body of the message. However, the recipient was notified >> that the message contained two attachments and could easily find them >> within the message and save them. >> >> When a message was sent from Eudora to Pine, from Eudora to Mail, from >> Pine to Pine, from Pine to Mail, or from Mail to Mail, the recipient >> was notified that the message contained two attachments and could save >> them. >> >> But as you can see, when a message was sent from Netscape to either >> Eudora or Mail, the attachments were concatenated within the body of >> the message and the recipient was *not* notified that the message >> contained attachments. Therefore, there was no easy way to identify >> and save the attachments other than by scanning the message and >> screen-scraping the relevant parts. >> >> It would be interesting to see if the I-Ds that were concatenated were >> sent by a Netscape email composer, or by some other email composer >> that causes Eudora or Mail to not understand that some body parts >> should be unwrapped and identified as an attachment. (One possible >> clue...and we say possible because we have been unable to prove >> it...is the fact that Netscape uses 12 leading dashes "--" as part of >> the boundary specification.) If you have submitted multiple I-Ds that >> have been posted as a concatenation of I-Ds, then we would appreciate >> your letting us know what email composer you used when you submitted >> the I-Ds to the Secretariat. >> >> The I-D administrator at the Secretariat uses Eudora as an email >> client. When multiple I-Ds are placed in the body of a message, the >> only way that she can know that the submission contains more than one >> draft is if the sender indicates this in the message, or if the email >> reader software notifies her that there are multiple attachments. >> Until now, if neither of these events occurred, then the administrator >> assumed that the message contained a single I-D, and copied the entire >> contents of the message to a single file for posting. We considered >> having the I-D administrator switch email clients from Eudora to >> Netscape. However, there may be other email composers that are >> incompatible with Netscape and may cause similar problems in the >> future. >> >> Suggestions for how to solve this problem are welcome. Until we find >> a solution that corrects the problem without introducing other >> problems, the I-D administrator will manually check for multiple files >> within email messages whenever attachments are not specified. Needless >> to say, this is a time-consuming task, and will slow the processing of >> I-Ds. >> >> Albert Vezza and Barbara Fuller >> -- >> Albert Vezza >> President >> Foretec Seminars, Inc >> 1895 Preston White Drive >> Suite 100 >> Reston, VA 20191-5434 >> >> Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com >> Tel: (703) 620-9053 >> Fax: (703) 620-9071 >> >> Natick, MA Office >> Tel: (508) 650 4020 >> Fax: (508) 650 4639 > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 19:12:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03939; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP90B-0002vk-Do; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:27:52 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP8d4-00060v-7Z; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:03:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP6P7-0001gb-R6; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:41:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18092; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from figas.ekabal.com ([157.22.13.42]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP6eJ-00073F-1s; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:57:07 -0500 Received: from [172.16.16.52] (da001d4094.stl-mo.osd.concentric.net [66.236.111.254]) (authenticated) by figas.ekabal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iA2LfEC28930; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:41:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Rohan Mahy Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:40:50 -0800 To: Albert Vezza X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d2b46e3b2dfbff2088e0b72a54104985 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:03:56 -0500 Cc: Barbara Fuller , WG Chairs , IESG , Tools Team Discussion , Rebecca Bunch , Dinara Suleymanova Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, My proposal is to use a web form to submit internet-drafts instead of an email. The form can automatically check for appropriate formatting, boilerplate, and other ID nits, and return an immediate response indicating the success or failure of the submission. The form could also optionally check for WG chair approval for new WG IDs. The drafts that pass the pre-check could be automatically included in the repository, or quarantined for inspection and release by the secretariat staff. I realize that this approach has been discussed before and rejected for historical reasons. I do not intend to start a debate on the merits of using web pages instead of email, merely to publicly indicate my support for the approach. thanks, -rohan On Nov 1, 2004, at 16:09, Albert Vezza wrote: > Dear IETF Participants: > > The Secretariat has received complaints that Internet-Drafts are being > posted with formatting errors. One problem involves the concatenation > of files, which sometimes occurs when multiple files are submitted as > attachments to a single email message. In some cases, the attached > files include two versions of the same I-D. In other cases, the > attached files include two different I-Ds. Another problem involves > the insertion of blank lines within an I-D. > > The Secretariat has been trying to understand why these problems are > occurring. The insertion of blank lines is still under investigation. > However, we have performed some experiments that we believe shed some > light on the concatenation issue. Based on the results of these > experiments, it appears that the concatenation of files stems from an > incompatibility between the email composer software and the email > reader software. > > In our experiments, we sent and received test messages using various > combinations of the email clients Eudora, Pine, Netscape, and Apple's > Mail. Each of the test messages included two text attachments. Please > note that all four email clients use mime 1.0 and appear to correctly > specify boundaries between body parts. > > The results of these experiments are summarized below. The number "1" > indicates that both of the attachments were placed in-line, i.e., in > the body of the email message, by the email reader software and were > concatenated when viewed by the recipient. The number "2" indicates > that the email reader software identified the attachments by name. > And finally, the number "3" indicates that the email reader software > created files of the attachments and placed them in an appropriate > directory. (The last issue is a receiver-side action that has no > bearing on this issue. It was included here only for completeness.) > > Eudora to Eudora 2, 3 > Eudora to Netscape 1, 2 > Eudora to Pine 2 > Eudora to Mail 2 > > Pine to Pine 2 > Pine to Eudora 2, 3 > Pine to Netscape 1, 2 > Pine to Mail 2 > > Netscape to Netscape 1, 2 > Netscape to Eudora 1 > Netscape to Pine 1, 2 > Netscape to Mail 1 > > Mail to Mail 2 > Mail to Eudora 2, 3 > Mail to Pine 1, 2 > Mail to Netscape 1, 2 > > When a message was sent from Eudora to Eudora, from Pine to Eudora, or > from Mail to Eudora, the attachments were placed in the recipient's > "Attachments" directory, and the recipient was notified that the > message contained two attachments. Therefore, Eudora unwraps the > files from the body when it is able to do so. > > When a message was sent from Eudora to Netscape, from Pine to > Netscape, from Netscape to Netscape, from Netscape to Pine, from Mail > to Pine, or from Mail to Netscape, the attachments were concatenated > within the body of the message. However, the recipient was notified > that the message contained two attachments and could easily find them > within the message and save them. > > When a message was sent from Eudora to Pine, from Eudora to Mail, from > Pine to Pine, from Pine to Mail, or from Mail to Mail, the recipient > was notified that the message contained two attachments and could save > them. > > But as you can see, when a message was sent from Netscape to either > Eudora or Mail, the attachments were concatenated within the body of > the message and the recipient was *not* notified that the message > contained attachments. Therefore, there was no easy way to identify > and save the attachments other than by scanning the message and > screen-scraping the relevant parts. > > It would be interesting to see if the I-Ds that were concatenated were > sent by a Netscape email composer, or by some other email composer > that causes Eudora or Mail to not understand that some body parts > should be unwrapped and identified as an attachment. (One possible > clue...and we say possible because we have been unable to prove > it...is the fact that Netscape uses 12 leading dashes "--" as part of > the boundary specification.) If you have submitted multiple I-Ds that > have been posted as a concatenation of I-Ds, then we would appreciate > your letting us know what email composer you used when you submitted > the I-Ds to the Secretariat. > > The I-D administrator at the Secretariat uses Eudora as an email > client. When multiple I-Ds are placed in the body of a message, the > only way that she can know that the submission contains more than one > draft is if the sender indicates this in the message, or if the email > reader software notifies her that there are multiple attachments. > Until now, if neither of these events occurred, then the administrator > assumed that the message contained a single I-D, and copied the entire > contents of the message to a single file for posting. We considered > having the I-D administrator switch email clients from Eudora to > Netscape. However, there may be other email composers that are > incompatible with Netscape and may cause similar problems in the > future. > > Suggestions for how to solve this problem are welcome. Until we find > a solution that corrects the problem without introducing other > problems, the I-D administrator will manually check for multiple files > within email messages whenever attachments are not specified. Needless > to say, this is a time-consuming task, and will slow the processing of > I-Ds. > > Albert Vezza and Barbara Fuller > -- > Albert Vezza > President > Foretec Seminars, Inc > 1895 Preston White Drive > Suite 100 > Reston, VA 20191-5434 > > Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com > Tel: (703) 620-9053 > Fax: (703) 620-9071 > > Natick, MA Office > Tel: (508) 650 4020 > Fax: (508) 650 4639 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 19:41:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07570; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP9Sn-0003m5-Sa; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:57:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP94T-0002rd-4G; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:32:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP8m6-000298-Sk for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:13:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03993 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP91J-0002wj-6E for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:29:02 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[10.37.1.31]) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CP8m1-0007N0-00; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:13:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: avezza@mailbox.cnri.reston.va.us Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <86oeig6p59.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> References: <86oeig6p59.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:08:08 -0500 To: stanislav shalunov From: Albert Vezza Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: bfuller@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 We will look in the logs to see if we can locate one and post it. At 14:12 -0500 11/2/04, stanislav shalunov wrote: >Albert Vezza writes: > >> But as you can see, when a message was sent from Netscape to either >> Eudora or Mail, the attachments were concatenated within the body of >> the message and the recipient was *not* notified that the message >> contained attachments. Therefore, there was no easy way to identify >> and save the attachments other than by scanning the message and >> screen-scraping the relevant parts. > >Albert, > >Thank you very much for the report! > >Would it be possible to save one offending message, unedited and >unmodified by any MIME-processing software, in a text file and let us >look at the file? (Maybe post it on the web somewhere.) > >Thank you very much, >-- >Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ > >Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the incompetent >many for appointment by the corrupt few. -- G. B. Shaw -- Albert Vezza President Foretec Seminars, Inc 1895 Preston White Drive Suite 100 Reston, VA 20191-5434 Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com Tel: (703) 620-9053 Fax: (703) 620-9071 Natick, MA Office Tel: (508) 650 4020 Fax: (508) 650 4639 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 19:41:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07603; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP9T4-0003ms-9f; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:57:42 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP94T-0002ri-9P; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:32:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP8m8-00029E-2I; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:13:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04000; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP91L-0002wo-Al; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:29:03 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[10.37.1.31]) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CP8m4-0007N0-00; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:13:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: avezza@mailbox.cnri.reston.va.us Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:12:11 -0500 To: Paul Hoffman / VPNC From: Albert Vezza Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: Barbara Fuller , WG Chairs , IESG , Tools Team Discussion , mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Thanks we will look into that. We need to be a little careful as the ID administrator is not a technical person and needs standard type tools to process IDs. At 9:53 -0800 11/2/04, Paul Hoffman / VPNC wrote: >At 7:09 PM -0500 11/1/04, Albert Vezza wrote: >>Suggestions for how to solve this problem are welcome. > >A couple of things come to mind: > >- Keep an exact bit-copy of everything sent in on the server before >delivering it to the mailbox; this is fairly easy with almost any >mail server software running on a Unixy system. This is good >practice for doing forensics after a mangle. > >- Process the attachments with a Perl script, not with a mail >client. There are a zillion Perl modules for this, and your script >could go ahead and change the text into the desired format (proper >line endings, form feeds, and so on). Heck, it could even run the >ID-nits tool! :-) Use the mail client to see what the Perl script >caught and check for sanity (does the file name match what they said >they were submitting, and so on), but don't expect any mail client >to not mangle incoming text files. > > >--Paul Hoffman, Director >--VPN Consortium -- Albert Vezza President Foretec Seminars, Inc 1895 Preston White Drive Suite 100 Reston, VA 20191-5434 Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com Tel: (703) 620-9053 Fax: (703) 620-9071 Natick, MA Office Tel: (508) 650 4020 Fax: (508) 650 4639 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 19:43:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07793; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP9UW-0003od-1c; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:59:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP94y-00032T-L8; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:32:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP8o8-0003Ru-2l; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:15:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04211; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP93H-0002zn-1t; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:31:07 -0500 Received: by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id BE84C37F53; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:14:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DA137EEE; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:14:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A33C38002; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:14:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP8nL-00065e-Nn; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:14:35 +0100 Message-ID: <418822EB.40106@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:14:35 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rohan Mahy References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rohan, The tools team has been working on specifying such a web interface. Maybe you'd like to review the draft: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt Henrik Rohan Mahy wrote: > Hi, > > My proposal is to use a web form to submit internet-drafts instead of an > email. The form can automatically check for appropriate formatting, > boilerplate, and other ID nits, and return an immediate response > indicating the success or failure of the submission. The form could also > optionally check for WG chair approval for new WG IDs. The drafts that > pass the pre-check could be automatically included in the repository, or > quarantined for inspection and release by the secretariat staff. > > I realize that this approach has been discussed before and rejected for > historical reasons. I do not intend to start a debate on the merits of > using web pages instead of email, merely to publicly indicate my support > for the approach. > > thanks, > -rohan _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 20:32:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12240; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPAFp-0004wP-2w; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:48:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP9r8-0003tx-0X; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:22:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP9f3-0006EW-FY; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:10:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10466; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:10:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP9uD-0004Ro-K3; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:25:48 -0500 Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA319nl1082583; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffvpnc@mail.vpnc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:09:53 -0800 To: Albert Vezza From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: Barbara Fuller , WG Chairs , IESG , Tools Team Discussion , mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 At 7:12 PM -0500 11/2/04, Albert Vezza wrote: >Thanks we will look into that. We need to be a little careful as >the ID administrator is not a technical person and needs standard >type tools to process IDs. That's fine, but the documents can be pre-processed for her before her "standard type tools" even see the email message. That way, the Secretariat's tools are in charge of capture and conversion, not the mail program she happens to be running. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 09:41:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA13825; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPMZV-0006WF-Gq; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:57:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPMIZ-0002hz-Sd; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:39:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPKR8-0001WW-3Y; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:40:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA03036; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from salvelinus.brooktrout.com ([204.176.205.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPKgR-0003Fx-La; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:56:16 -0500 Received: from nhmail2.needham.brooktrout.com (nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com [204.176.205.242]) by salvelinus.brooktrout.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id iA3CWM3w012504; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:29:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Burger To: Henrik Levkowetz , Rohan Mahy Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:28:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:39:42 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca As someone who travels *a lot*, and often has spotty connectivity, I would strongly urge a SMTP Submit mechanism to parallel a web-based tool. For example, one could have a standard format for the metadata entered in the first two pages (XML? 822-style keyword-value?) followed by the document. A reply stating the submission succeeded or failed would be good. One thing that made e-mail a killer application is its asynchronous communication nature. Sure, IM (in this case, a web page) is great, but it isn't everything... > -----Original Message----- > From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:15 PM > To: Rohan Mahy > Cc: WG Chairs; Tools Team Discussion > Subject: Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts > > > Hi Rohan, > > The tools team has been working on specifying such a web > interface. > Maybe you'd like to review the draft: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-sub mission-06.txt Henrik Rohan Mahy wrote: > Hi, > > My proposal is to use a web form to submit internet-drafts instead of an > email. The form can automatically check for appropriate formatting, > boilerplate, and other ID nits, and return an immediate response > indicating the success or failure of the submission. The form could also > optionally check for WG chair approval for new WG IDs. The drafts that > pass the pre-check could be automatically included in the repository, or > quarantined for inspection and release by the secretariat staff. > > I realize that this approach has been discussed before and rejected for > historical reasons. I do not intend to start a debate on the merits of > using web pages instead of email, merely to publicly indicate my support > for the approach. > > thanks, > -rohan _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 11:32:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24390; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOIq-0000ix-V7; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:48:10 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPNuv-0003Bf-99; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:23:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPNqK-0002Mc-FI; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:18:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23076; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPO5g-0000QJ-De; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:34:32 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3GIQJ2083509; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:18:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Eric Burger" , "Rohan Mahy" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:18:25 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI: The Toolset proposed in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt includes both email and web interfaces. Alex. On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > As someone who travels *a lot*, and often has spotty connectivity, I > would strongly urge a SMTP Submit mechanism to parallel a web-based tool. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:15 PM >> To: Rohan Mahy >> Cc: WG Chairs; Tools Team Discussion >> Subject: Re: Mangled Internet-Drafts >> >> >> Hi Rohan, >> >> The tools team has been working on specifying such a web >> interface. >> Maybe you'd like to review the draft: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-sub > mission-06.txt > > Henrik > > Rohan Mahy wrote: >> Hi, >> >> My proposal is to use a web form to submit internet-drafts instead of an >> email. The form can automatically check for appropriate formatting, >> boilerplate, and other ID nits, and return an immediate response >> indicating the success or failure of the submission. The form could also >> optionally check for WG chair approval for new WG IDs. The drafts that >> pass the pre-check could be automatically included in the repository, or >> quarantined for inspection and release by the secretariat staff. >> >> I realize that this approach has been discussed before and rejected for >> historical reasons. I do not intend to start a debate on the merits of >> using web pages instead of email, merely to publicly indicate my support >> for the approach. >> >> thanks, >> -rohan > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 11:40:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24909; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOQy-0000tG-Ks; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:56:33 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPO5t-0004yR-PK; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:34:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPNvP-0003DZ-C9; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:23:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23494; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOAl-0000YX-Bp; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:39:47 -0500 Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3GNnEl004678; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:23:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffvpnc@mail.vpnc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:23:47 -0800 To: Eric Burger From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f At 7:28 AM -0500 11/3/04, Eric Burger wrote: >As someone who travels *a lot*, and often has spotty connectivity, I would >strongly urge a SMTP Submit mechanism to parallel a web-based tool. At some point in your travelling, you must have internet connectivity to send/receive mail. You should be able to do a web form-submit at that time. True, you cannot queue these up as easily as you can your outgoing email, but you still can do it. Designing two parallel systems is much more error-prone than designing one. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 12:08:31 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27964; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOrx-0001gQ-ND; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:24:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPOOW-0000aR-PN; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:54:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPODL-0006gg-9b for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:42:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25079 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOSf-0000vI-Ub for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:58:19 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49773197482; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iA3Gfsv00206; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:41:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411031641.iA3Gfsv00206@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: shalunov@internet2.edu Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts References: <86oeig6p59.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:41:53 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, avezza@foretec.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, bfuller@foretec.com X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 My guess is that the problematic messages use "Content-disposition: inline" for the attachments. If it's possible to insert a filter into the message stream, I'd bet that changing "Content-disposition: inline" to "Content-disposition: attachment" (and perhaps adding "Content-disposition: attachment" to MIME parts that don't have any Content-disposition: header) would fix the problem. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 12:44:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01777; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPQy-0002dV-FQ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:00:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPP6V-0001uT-GU; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:39:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPOvA-0008Dl-Jq; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:27:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29762; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPAW-00029P-Iw; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:43:37 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3HRaJ2086156; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:27:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:27:35 -0700 To: "Paul Hoffman / VPNC" , "Eric Burger" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts References: From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > At 7:28 AM -0500 11/3/04, Eric Burger wrote: >> As someone who travels *a lot*, and often has spotty connectivity, I >> would >> strongly urge a SMTP Submit mechanism to parallel a web-based tool. > > At some point in your travelling, you must have internet connectivity to > send/receive mail. You should be able to do a web form-submit at that > time. True, you cannot queue these up as easily as you can your outgoing > email, but you still can do it. > > Designing two parallel systems is much more error-prone than designing > one. I am not a big fan of multiple interfaces in early Toolset versions. Moreover, email draft submission has serious drawbacks (documented in Tools draft). However, given the large number of IETFers that have a very strong preference for using email for draft submission, the Tools team felt that we have to provide that option in order to get the tool "approved" by IETF. Unless we have misjudged IETF feelings, it looks like every major IETF tool would have to have an email interface if such interface is technically possible. Perhaps we should place scary-looking ASCII-drawn wolves in our signatures to convince IETFers to stay away from email draft submissions? :-) Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 13:01:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03199; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPhb-00030u-Sn; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:17:49 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPPNT-0000sB-1j; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:56:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPPGu-0003yw-UZ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:50:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02210; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPWE-0002lB-PT; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:06:05 -0500 Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3HnxA3043921; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:50:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffvpnc@mail.vpnc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:50:02 -0800 To: "Alex Rousskov" , "Eric Burger" From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 At 10:27 AM -0700 11/3/04, Alex Rousskov wrote: >I am not a big fan of multiple interfaces in early Toolset versions. >Moreover, email draft submission has serious drawbacks (documented >in Tools draft). However, given the large number of IETFers that >have a very strong preference for using email for draft submission, >the Tools team felt that we have to provide that option in order to >get the tool "approved" by IETF. Probably right, although I think it is more due to inertia than to good engineering thinking. >Unless we have misjudged IETF feelings, it looks like every major >IETF tool would have to have an email interface if such interface is >technically possible. Perhaps we should place scary-looking >ASCII-drawn wolves in our signatures to convince IETFers to stay >away from email draft submissions? :-) The mail-based tool is possible, it is just much harder to get right in all cases because the draft can get mangled before it hits the Secretariat's mail server. Once the message is at the Secretariat, there is no problem; there are plenty of Perl (and so on) tools that can extract the I-D just fine. Instead of trying to scare people away from mail submission, there might just be some mail feedback that says "Please check your draft for formatting after it is published. If the formatting is incorrect, submit a revised draft (after bumping the -nn number) through the web interface, and use the web interface in the future." --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 13:29:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05436; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQ7v-0003iW-6N; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:45:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPPm2-0006YG-Lg; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:22:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPPZi-00031M-6g; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:09:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03890; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPp4-0003Ed-Mx; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:25:32 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3I9ZJ2087816; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:09:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:09:34 -0700 To: "Paul Hoffman / VPNC" , "Eric Burger" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts References: From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > I think it is more due to inertia than to good engineering thinking. Agreed. Instead of trying to scare people away from mail submission, there might > just be some mail feedback that says "Please check your draft for > formatting after it is published. If the formatting is incorrect, submit > a revised draft (after bumping the -nn number) through the web > interface, and use the web interface in the future." Email submissions are validated just like web submissions. There is even a preview provided in the submission response. I suspect that the vast majority of formatting errors caused by email agents can be detected automatically, and many cases are already checked for by Henrik's idnits tool. Some formatting errors will prevent the draft from being posted and some will just generate a warning, but even a warning should be sufficient for most submitters to get worried and check what has actually happened. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 13:32:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05642; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQBH-0003n0-2X; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:48:27 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPPmu-0006tF-UK; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:23:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPPht-0005SV-Rf for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:18:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04557 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPxF-0003SH-BM for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:33:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1EAF1CD658; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29284-02; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938FA1CD655; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:18:02 -0500 (EST) To: Paul Hoffman / VPNC Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Nov 2004 13:18:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86lldi6bkf.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 One thing I always do (and the Secretariat probably ignores) is provide a cryptographic checksum of the draft as I have it. By so doing, I provide the Secretariat with a means to ascertain that the draft wasn't mangled anywhere. I think this is a reasonable measure to take regardless of true security mechanisms such as PGP. Indeed, it would help catch cases where a PGP-signed draft is published rather than the PGP output (these can differ if there are lines that start with a dash). This measure is presently not in draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt, but I think it could be there. I think it should be. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." -- E. W. Dijkstra _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 14:08:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09140; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQkG-0004lA-4P; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:24:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQS8-0000YH-6o; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:05:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQFM-0006Qu-Hz for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:52:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07706 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQUi-0004Oi-CI for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:08:34 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3IqZJ2089544; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:52:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:52:35 -0700 To: "stanislav shalunov" , "Paul Hoffman / VPNC" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts References: <86lldi6bkf.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86lldi6bkf.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > One thing I always do (and the Secretariat probably ignores) is > provide a cryptographic checksum of the draft as I have it. By so > doing, I provide the Secretariat with a means to ascertain that the > draft wasn't mangled anywhere. ... > This measure is presently not in > draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt, but I think it could be > there. I think it should be. Current email interface requires no extra metadata. Only sender's address is used. Thus, we are not talking about a gradual improvement but a significant change here, especially for in-body submissions. Also, I am not sure whether email systems are prohibited from modifying plain text messages. If they can modify some messages (e.g., to do end-of-line conversion), then a checksum would be useless. Would accepting compressed drafts be a better option? Compression gives you a reliable checksum and might be useful for low-bandwidth links. Web interface can accept compressed drafts as well. Accepting compressed content would be a gradual improvement since the Toolset has to deal with various encodings already. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 14:31:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11091; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPR6K-0005F5-Ll; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:47:24 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQgr-0003Ku-8E; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:21:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQgR-0003Bf-K0; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:20:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10212; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQvn-00050c-Rt; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:36:33 -0500 Received: by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 84BF137EB7; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7699037E92; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1EE37E56; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPQfr-0002l6-TQ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:20:03 +0100 Message-ID: <41892F63.2010108@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:20:03 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Followup-To: IETF,TOOLS, To: Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS Subject: [Tools-discuss] New TOOLS Team Members? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The TOOLS team is in need of some new members. With the IETF-wide call for comments on the requirements for a draft submission tool, draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 [1] we are approaching the completion of our first task. However, the list of desirable tools we would like to work on [2] is large enough that we would like to go forward on several of them in parallel, and for that more manpower is needed. If you are interested and are able to contribute to this work, please send a note to tools-team@ietf.org, indicating items in [2] which you find interesting and would like to work on. If you know someone else who might be interested, a note to the tools-team@ietf.org to that effect would also be appreciated :-) For more information on the TOOLS team, visit the charter page [3] Thanks! Henrik [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt [2] http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList [3] http://tools.ietf.org/charter-page _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 14:42:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12286; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPRGW-0005Wh-9M; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:57:56 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQto-0004g9-6f; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:34:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQpA-0003yg-En for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:29:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10962 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPR4W-0005C8-Ev for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:45:33 -0500 Received: by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7788837F0F; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:29:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF1E37EFA; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:29:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575BB37E44; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:29:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPQod-0002rR-72; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:29:07 +0100 Message-ID: <41893182.3050800@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:29:06 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts References: <86lldi6bkf.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > >> One thing I always do (and the Secretariat probably ignores) is >> provide a cryptographic checksum of the draft as I have it. By so >> doing, I provide the Secretariat with a means to ascertain that the >> draft wasn't mangled anywhere. > > ... > >> This measure is presently not in >> draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt, but I think it could be >> there. I think it should be. > > > Current email interface requires no extra metadata. Only sender's > address is used. Thus, we are not talking about a gradual improvement > but a significant change here, especially for in-body submissions. I agree > Also, I am not sure whether email systems are prohibited from modifying > plain text messages. If they can modify some messages (e.g., to do > end-of-line conversion), then a checksum would be useless. I'm also not sure, but a bit wary about this > Would accepting compressed drafts be a better option? Compression gives > you a reliable checksum and might be useful for low-bandwidth links. > Web interface can accept compressed drafts as well. Accepting > compressed content would be a gradual improvement since the Toolset has > to deal with various encodings already. I think this is a good path of gradual improvement :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 16:00:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19274; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPSUI-0007Rz-10; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:16:14 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPSDH-0004Ds-Bf; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:58:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPS4Z-0007CH-KB for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:49:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18625 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPSJx-0007FF-0M for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:05:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DF51CD69A; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23107-07; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB61CD5E2; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:49:35 -0500 (EST) To: "Alex Rousskov" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts References: <86lldi6bkf.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Nov 2004 15:49:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86bree64ju.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > Current email interface requires no extra metadata. Only sender's > address is used. Thus, we are not talking about a gradual > improvement but a significant change here, especially for in-body > submissions. Understood and agreed. > Also, I am not sure whether email systems are prohibited from > modifying plain text messages. If they can modify some messages > (e.g., to do end-of-line conversion), then a checksum would be > useless. Well, providing a checksum would be optional and would be rather the point of making sure that the file, as a byte sequence, was transferred intact. It'd work for many people. It'd fail for some (e.g., those with non-'\n' line endings locally). > Would accepting compressed drafts be a better option? Quite possibly. I forget the resolution of the issue with taking URLs. If the tool takes URLs, then a cryptographic checksum would still be useful (including for real security rather than a simple check). -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Religion is the opium of them asses. --Karlm Arx _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 18:07:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00511; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPUT2-0002AN-3D; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:23:04 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPU9l-0005QZ-O4; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:03:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPU0L-0002wp-1n; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:53:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29379; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPUFj-0001vh-Q9; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:09:19 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[10.37.1.31]) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CPU0I-0000Fp-00; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:53:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: avezza@mailbox.cnri.reston.va.us Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200411031641.iA3Gfsv00206@windsor.research.att.com> References: <86oeig6p59.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411031641.iA3Gfsv00206@windsor.research.att.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:53:16 -0500 To: IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion From: Albert Vezza Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist , bfuller@foretec.com X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Thanks to Bill Fenner and Tony Hansen who both hit the nail on the head. We will look at putting a filter in-line with the mail stream to change "Content-disposition: inline" to "Content-disposition: attachment". This should fix the concatenated ID problem for email composers that use the "Content-disposition:" field but specify "inline". We will also have to figure out how to add "Content-disposition: attachment" to MIME parts that don't have any Content-disposition: header. Fortuitously, this has a high probability of also fixing the added linefeed and missing ^L problem, because we have only been able to observe the phenomena when the ID administrator gets the attachment in-line instead of as an attachment. But, we will have to wait and see if it crops up after we have fixed the multiple attachment problem to be sure. In any case, this problem seems to be caused by some interplay between Eudora and Notepad. Al At 8:41 -0700 11/3/04, Bill Fenner wrote: >My guess is that the problematic messages use >"Content-disposition: inline" for the attachments. >If it's possible to insert a filter into the message >stream, I'd bet that changing "Content-disposition: inline" >to "Content-disposition: attachment" (and perhaps adding >"Content-disposition: attachment" to MIME parts that >don't have any Content-disposition: header) would fix >the problem. > > Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 03:51:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28070; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 03:51:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPdaO-0006H8-Oq; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 04:07:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPdIo-0004Rs-H7; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 03:49:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPdFM-0003fK-5e; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 03:45:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27607; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 03:45:30 -0500 (EST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPdUo-0005n3-Kg; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 04:01:33 -0500 Received: from esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (esdks001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.120]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id iA48jG307339; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:45:16 +0200 (EET) X-Scanned: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:41:38 +0200 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.31 2004060815 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id iA48fcf1009477; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:41:38 +0200 Received: from mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.96) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com 00ztYY9f; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:41:36 EET Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.28]) by mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id iA48eoa29763; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:34 +0200 Received: from esebe056.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.51]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:35 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:34 +0200 Message-ID: <3CF661B1787ABF41A869BE20108F8D6D431F7A@esebe056.ntc.nokia.com> Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts Thread-Index: AcTBzQ3Sidavx7EcTAKbfugnHBcwMAAXmWFw To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 08:40:35.0268 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3D8A840:01C4C249] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, > Unless we have misjudged IETF feelings, it looks like every major IETF = =20 > tool would have to have an email interface if such interface is =20 > technically possible. Perhaps we should place scary-looking = ASCII-drawn =20 > wolves in our signatures to convince IETFers to stay away from email = draft =20 > submissions? :-) Often, I do work on drafts while while traveling - so I have no = connectivity. I can finish a draft and 'send' it, even if I don't have connectivity. = That way, next time I connect, the draft gets sent. In many cases, after a = flight, I may get stuck behind dial-up or GPRS and having to upload via a = webpage can be problematic. I would rather submit drafts by email than by webpages. John _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 07:08:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12922; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPgfk-00021t-PG; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:25:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPgNF-0004E3-Fk; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:05:53 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPgLX-0003lr-NJ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:04:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12491; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPgb3-0001v9-Pb; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:20:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6E761DEC; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:03:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10968-08; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:03:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9B461E97; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:03:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:41:42 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Albert Vezza , IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts Message-ID: <51B22F244680D24FDE9249DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: References: <86oeig6p59.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411031641.iA3Gfsv00206@windsor.research.att.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist , bfuller@foretec.com X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 3. november 2004 17:53 -0500 Albert Vezza wrote: > Thanks to Bill Fenner and Tony Hansen who both hit the nail on the head. > We will look at putting a filter in-line with the mail stream to change > "Content-disposition: inline" to "Content-disposition: attachment". This > should fix the concatenated ID problem for email composers that use the > "Content-disposition:" field but specify "inline". Good! > We will also have to > figure out how to add "Content-disposition: attachment" to MIME parts > that don't have any Content-disposition: header. You don't have to do that - most readers assume "attachment" when there is no content-disposition header. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 11:03:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03964; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPkKN-0007q0-68; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:19:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPjyM-0004mb-S6; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:56:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPh9J-0003QQ-7Z for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:55:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15900 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com ([192.11.222.161]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPhOq-00035i-0q for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:11:36 -0500 Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4CsIWt003878 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:54:49 -0600 (CST) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <4M32R0DN>; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:54:17 +0100 Message-ID: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B15503C79F09@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: "'tools-discuss@ietf.org'" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:54:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 200d029292fbb60d25b263122ced50fc X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:56:25 -0500 Subject: [Tools-discuss] A tool to check references and citations in I-Ds. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 As per the below, I believe such a tool could help a lot at earlier stages in the process. Bert -----Original Message----- From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [mailto:bwijnen@lucent.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:43 To: Iesg (E-mail) Subject: Issues with References: draft-ietf-aaa-diameter-nasreq-17.txt Mmmm... blush (since doc was approved while I was/am primary AD). The below shows that (specifically in documents witgh many many references and citations) it might be good if we had a tool that could check for such things and alert editors/authors/wgs/us(ADs) of issues as found by the RFC-editor below. DO we know of such a tool? Should I forwar dthis to the TOOLS group/team? Bert -----Original Message----- From: David Mitton [mailto:david@mitton.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 04:43 To: RFC Editor; pcalhoun@airespace.com; gwz@cisco.com; dspence@computer.org; dmitton@circularnetworks.com Cc: RFC Editor; Bert Wijnen; Kessens, David; aboba@internaut.com; john.loughney@nokia.com; David Mitton Subject: Re: draft-ietf-aaa-diameter-nasreq-17.txt Sorry about this, I made several passes on the document in the final reviews to resolve all the references. Obviously, some managed to slip by. Comments imbedded below: On 11/3/2004 08:58 PM, RFC Editor wrote: >Authors, > >While editing we have come >across the following references which do not have corresponding >citations: > >[802.1X] IEEE Standard for Local and metropolitan networks - >Port-Based Network Access Control, IEEE Std 802.1X-2001, June >2001 I would say that [RAD802.1X] RFC 3580 pulls this information in indirectly. And in the future Diameter EAP will as well, therefore, this reference can be removed. >[AAATrans] Aboba, B. and J. Wood, "Authentication, Authorization >and Accounting (AAA) Transport Profile", RFC 3539, June 2003. change [AAATrans] to [DiamTrans] in the reference. This will fix the citation mentioned below. >[ExtRADPract] Mitton, D., "Network Access Servers Requirements: >Extended RADIUS Practices", RFC 2882, July 2000. hmm... actually RFC 2882 gets dragged in by being referenced in [RADIUSTypes] but for some reason we never discussed what to do with those types in Section 9. Please, retain the reference for now. I will consider additional text and possibly poll the WG. >[RADIUSIANA] Aboba, B., "IANA Considerations for RADIUS (Remote >Authentication Dial In User Service)", RFC 3575, July 2003. Section 11.2, "AVP Codes" page 83, second paragraph, last sentance: "These values are assigned by the policy in RFC 2865 Section 6 [RADIUS]" Add to end of sentance: "and amended by RFC 3575 [RADIUSIANA]." >Please let us know where we should insert textual citations to the >documents listed above. If they are not to be cited, they will be >deleted from the references section. > > >We have also come across the following textual citations that do not >have reference entries: > >[DiamTrans] fixed above. >[L2TP] >[PPPMP] >[PPTP] Add as Informative references: [L2TP] Townsley, et. al., " Layer Two Tunneling Protocol 'L2TP' ", RFC 2661, August 1999 [PPPMP] Sklower, et. al., "The PPP Multilink Protocol (MP)", RFC 1990, August 1996 [PPTP] Hamzeh, K., Pall, G., Verthein, W., Taarud, J., Little, W. and G. Zorn, "Point-to-Point Tunneling Protocol (PPTP)", RFC 2637, July 1999. > >[RADIPV6] change citation to [RADIUSIPv6] >[RFC3576] change citation to [RADDynAuth] >[options] Not intended as a reference. The brackets are meta characters to indicate optional parameters to the QoSFilterRule string. >[IEEE 802.11f] Add as Informative reference: [IEEE 802.11F] IEEE, "Trial-Use Recommended Practice for Multi-Vendor Access Point Interoperability via an Inter-Access Point Protocol Across Distribution Systems Supporting IEEE 802.11 Operation", IEEE 802.11F-2003, June 2003 >Please send us the reference information for the above citations, and >let us know whether they should be listed as a normative or >informative reference. > > >We will not process this document further until we have been able to >resolve these issues. > >Thank you. > >RFC Editor Let me know of any futher issues. David Mitton. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 11:14:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05540; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPkVu-00087B-CK; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:31:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPk4o-0006Ze-1T; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:03:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPjy9-0004mR-Mf; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:56:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03259; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPkDg-0007ej-Iq; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:12:17 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Fu7J2048624; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:56:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:56:06 -0700 To: john.loughney@nokia.com, paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, eburger@brooktrout.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts References: <3CF661B1787ABF41A869BE20108F8D6D431F7A@esebe056.ntc.nokia.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3CF661B1787ABF41A869BE20108F8D6D431F7A@esebe056.ntc.nokia.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 2004/11/04 (MST), wrote: > I would rather submit drafts by email than by webpages. John, As I have stated in my response to Paul, the Tools team is very aware that many people prefer email submission. That is why both email and web interfaces are to be supported. Personally, I believe that off-line submission convenience is less important than submission quality, and that the later is much easier to monitor and improve with interactive web interface. However, I am not going to jeopardize the fate of the ID submission tool by trying to force IETFers to do what I think is right. This is not the fight worth fighting, IMO. Again, the ID Submission draft requires both email and web interfaces to be supported. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 5 19:03:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03410; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQE2r-0008H7-Au; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 19:03:05 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQDvx-0000MS-A6; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:55:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQDNg-0002IY-Vt; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:20:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00467; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from salvelinus.brooktrout.com ([204.176.205.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQDNh-0007Q9-Jt; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:20:33 -0500 Received: from nhmail2.needham.brooktrout.com (nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com [204.176.205.242]) by salvelinus.brooktrout.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id iA5N5sNT020641; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:03:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Burger To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:02:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:55:55 -0500 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Let's take a page from the W3C, and Computer Science, for that matter. The User Interface should be separate from the Verification and Submission Engine. That's called Separation of Concerns. It works. > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Rousskov [mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:56 AM > To: john.loughney@nokia.com; paul.hoffman@vpnc.org; > eburger@brooktrout.com > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts > > > On Thu, 2004/11/04 (MST), wrote: > > > I would rather submit drafts by email than by webpages. > > John, > > As I have stated in my response to Paul, the Tools team > is very aware > that many people prefer email submission. That is why both > email and web > interfaces are to be supported. > > Personally, I believe that off-line submission > convenience is less > important than submission quality, and that the later is much > easier to > monitor and improve with interactive web interface. > However, I am not going to jeopardize the fate of the ID > submission tool > by trying to force IETFers to do what I think is right. This > is not the > fight worth fighting, IMO. Again, the ID Submission draft > requires both > email and web interfaces to be supported. > > Thanks, > > Alex. > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 5 23:52:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA24545; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQIZ6-00066M-Iz; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:52:40 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQIUY-0003R7-Pa; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:47:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQIQq-0002pG-S3; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:44:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23954; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQIQq-0005wv-3c; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:44:12 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA64g6J2062164; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:42:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iA64g6l3062163; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:42:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:42:06 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Eric Burger Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041105213151.A60277@measurement-factory.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, Eric Burger wrote: > Let's take a page from the W3C, and Computer Science, for that > matter. The User Interface should be separate from the Verification > and Submission Engine. That's called Separation of Concerns. It > works. Eric, I agree that Separation of Concerns often works well, but I am not sure what you are suggesting in this particular case. Could you elaborate? FWIW, the ID Submission draft does not merge User Interfaces and Verification and Submission Engines (whatever that would mean). The draft does contain both interface and processing requirements. Thanks, Alex. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Rousskov [mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:56 AM >> To: john.loughney@nokia.com; paul.hoffman@vpnc.org; >> eburger@brooktrout.com >> Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts >> >> >> On Thu, 2004/11/04 (MST), wrote: >> >>> I would rather submit drafts by email than by webpages. >> >> John, >> >> As I have stated in my response to Paul, the Tools team is >> very aware that many people prefer email submission. That is why >> both email and web interfaces are to be supported. >> >> Personally, I believe that off-line submission convenience is >> less important than submission quality, and that the later is much >> easier to monitor and improve with interactive web interface. >> However, I am not going to jeopardize the fate of the ID submission >> tool by trying to force IETFers to do what I think is right. This >> is not the fight worth fighting, IMO. Again, the ID Submission >> draft requires both email and web interfaces to be supported. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 8 18:02:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14746; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRIXy-0000kw-NB; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:03:39 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRIMv-0008A7-KG; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:52:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRICN-0004qW-3u; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:41:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11613; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRICy-0008Tz-QL; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:41:58 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MfDJ2047994; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:41:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:41:13 -0700 To: "Eric Burger" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts References: From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2004/11/08 (MST), wrote: > The Verification and Submission Engines require a bunch of input, like > the draft text, authors, work group (if a WG draft), etc. > > Whether that information gets collected on a web page, WAP page, SIP > MESSAGE, E-mail, etc. doesn't matter. Agreed. Since the ID submission tool supports at least two interfaces, a good "engine" implementation would be interface-independent. IIRC, there is even an implementation hint about that in the draft. > The web page method lets you directly poke the data structures for the > Engines. That actually is a problem for when you want to change the web > page or data collected. Not sure what problem you are referring to, but I agree that any metadata changes would have to be reflected (in different ways) in web and email interfaces as well as the processing engines. As of now, the email interface does not allow for manual submission of metadata unless you count the "From:" address (the rest is auto-extracted from the draft itself). > A message would require structure, e.g., how to specify the meta data > around the draft. Then again, that *is* something the IETF Applications > Area does well :) We have decided to avoid "manual" metadata in email submissions for now. Thus, there is no structure other than what MIME gives us. If somebody wants to supply draft discussion address or other metadata they would have to use the web interface. I would not be surprised if this simple approach is eventually replaced with something more flexible/complex, but hope that we can launch the tool before that. I am still not 100% sure whether the current design addresses your concerns. It seems to me we are in agreement, and the Toolset does not violate the Separation of Concerns principle, but if you spot any design bugs, please let us know what they are. Thank you, Alex. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Rousskov [mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:42 PM >> To: Eric Burger >> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; wgchairs@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts >> >> >> >> On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, Eric Burger wrote: >> >> > Let's take a page from the W3C, and Computer Science, for that >> > matter. The User Interface should be separate from the Verification >> > and Submission Engine. That's called Separation of Concerns. It >> > works. >> >> Eric, >> >> I agree that Separation of Concerns often works well, but I am >> not sure what you are suggesting in this particular case. Could you >> elaborate? FWIW, the ID Submission draft does not merge User >> Interfaces and Verification and Submission Engines (whatever that >> would mean). The draft does contain both interface and processing >> requirements. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alex. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Alex Rousskov [mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com] >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:56 AM >> >> To: john.loughney@nokia.com; paul.hoffman@vpnc.org; >> >> eburger@brooktrout.com >> >> Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, 2004/11/04 (MST), wrote: >> >> >> >>> I would rather submit drafts by email than by webpages. >> >> >> >> John, >> >> >> >> As I have stated in my response to Paul, the Tools team is >> >> very aware that many people prefer email submission. That is why >> >> both email and web interfaces are to be supported. >> >> >> >> Personally, I believe that off-line submission convenience is >> >> less important than submission quality, and that the later is much >> >> easier to monitor and improve with interactive web interface. >> >> However, I am not going to jeopardize the fate of the ID submission >> >> tool by trying to force IETFers to do what I think is right. This >> >> is not the fight worth fighting, IMO. Again, the ID Submission >> >> draft requires both email and web interfaces to be supported. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Alex. >> _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 8 18:18:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16784; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRImh-000151-Cb; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:18:51 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRIdD-0007SR-E8; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:09:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRHhm-00050M-1O; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:09:42 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08359; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from salvelinus.brooktrout.com ([204.176.205.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRHiH-0007ZU-79; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:10:16 -0500 Received: from nhmail2.needham.brooktrout.com (nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com [204.176.205.242]) by salvelinus.brooktrout.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id iA8LxClg005312; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:56:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Burger To: Alex Rousskov Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:56:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:09:03 -0500 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 The Verification and Submission Engines require a bunch of input, like the draft text, authors, work group (if a WG draft), etc. Whether that information gets collected on a web page, WAP page, SIP MESSAGE, E-mail, etc. doesn't matter. The web page method lets you directly poke the data structures for the Engines. That actually is a problem for when you want to change the web page or data collected. A message would require structure, e.g., how to specify the meta data around the draft. Then again, that *is* something the IETF Applications Area does well :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Rousskov [mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com] > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:42 PM > To: Eric Burger > Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, Eric Burger wrote: > > > Let's take a page from the W3C, and Computer Science, for that > > matter. The User Interface should be separate from the > Verification > > and Submission Engine. That's called Separation of Concerns. It > > works. > > Eric, > > I agree that Separation of Concerns often works well, but I am > not sure what you are suggesting in this particular case. Could you > elaborate? FWIW, the ID Submission draft does not merge User > Interfaces and Verification and Submission Engines (whatever that > would mean). The draft does contain both interface and processing > requirements. > > Thanks, > > Alex. > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Alex Rousskov [mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:56 AM > >> To: john.loughney@nokia.com; paul.hoffman@vpnc.org; > >> eburger@brooktrout.com > >> Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Mangled Internet-Drafts > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 2004/11/04 (MST), wrote: > >> > >>> I would rather submit drafts by email than by webpages. > >> > >> John, > >> > >> As I have stated in my response to Paul, the Tools team is > >> very aware that many people prefer email submission. That is why > >> both email and web interfaces are to be supported. > >> > >> Personally, I believe that off-line submission convenience is > >> less important than submission quality, and that the later is much > >> easier to monitor and improve with interactive web interface. > >> However, I am not going to jeopardize the fate of the ID > submission > >> tool by trying to force IETFers to do what I think is right. This > >> is not the fight worth fighting, IMO. Again, the ID Submission > >> draft requires both email and web interfaces to be supported. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Alex. > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 16 09:09:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00888; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CU449-0006Gj-WF; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:12:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CU40R-0000Fo-As; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:08:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CU3xF-0008B5-Vo for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:05:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00404 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CU3zT-00067s-9Q for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:07:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE8F61BB0; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:04:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14140-07; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:04:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83A961B96; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:04:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:04:37 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , stanislav shalunov , "Paul Hoffman / VPNC" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts Message-ID: <2940FCDBE3888B00C8CADC96@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: References: <86lldi6bkf.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On onsdag, november 03, 2004 11:52:35 -0700 Alex Rousskov wrote: > Also, I am not sure whether email systems are prohibited from modifying > plain text messages. If they can modify some messages (e.g., to do > end-of-line conversion), then a checksum would be useless. I am very sure - some mailers mangle messages, and some mangle them a LOT. - End of line conversion (routine) - Stripping trailing spaces (rarer) - Conversion of "From" to ">From" (extremely common) - Converting between 8-bit, quoted-printable and base64 at random - long line breaking (rare) - Swapping headers, including headers of inner body parts - sheer mangling, especially of non-ASCII characters (variable) All of this means that signatures of email messages can only be done reliably by first reducing them to a canonical form, which should be 7-bit encoded, and then calculating a checksum over that - not the original form. See RFC 1864 for more data on one such scheme. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 09:56:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04783; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CURGh-0002o8-P5; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:58:48 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CURB7-0007p8-IU; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:53:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUR7i-000777-2c; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:49:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04205; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CURA8-0002de-Es; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:52:00 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 34B2638095; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:48:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA2837EC3; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:48:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FC837E43; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:48:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CUR7A-00020o-CW; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:48:57 +0100 Message-ID: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:48:53 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WG Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Below you'll find an ordered list of work items proposed by and for the tools team. We would very much like your comments on both the order of the work items, and the content. The list of work items is also available at: http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList which will be updated as comments come in. Please send your comments to tools-discuss@ietf.org . Henrik Summary list: ============= 1. WG Status update web interface 2. IETF Meta-information 3. Components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) 4. WG Meeting scheduler 5. Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) 6. WG page components, provided to all WGs: 7. Notification service - "mail me when this draft/charter changes" 8. Html-ized WG agendas 9. I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs 10. Publication request tool 11. RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... 12. Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space Detailed list: ============== 1. WG Status update web interface [IESG, Secretariat, Chairs] This Web-based system will allow the WG chairs to manage their WG information directly. ADs will be able to approve the "to-be-updated information," where required, via a password protected Web interface. 2. IETF Meta-information [Tool Builders] This covers at least information about IETF documents, participants, tasks, events. Most likely to stored in XML files and/or some kind of databases. We need to document what info is maintained/available. 3. Components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) [Tool Builders] This is a matter of identifying common tool infrastructure, such as for instance the email return verification provided by e.g. TMDA, and propose solutions which can be used/useful for multiple IETF tools, preferably in the form of existing open-source offerings 4. WG Meeting scheduler [IESG, Secretariat, Chairs] This Web-based application will allow WG chairs, ADs, and the Secretariat to perform all tasks required to generate meeting schedules and agendas. All meeting requests will be submitted directly to the database (with AD approval, if required). A tentative meeting schedule will be generated based on the requested meeting sizes, times, dates, and conflicts to avoid, and the Secretariat will be able to modify the schedule, as needed. Finally, the application will generate a Web page where the WG chairs can submit their agendas. The Secretariat will create all three versions of the agenda (i.e., Word, text, and HTML) at the same time using this application. 5. Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) [WGs, Chairs, Authors] This would provide draft status pages for all drafts of the kind currently provided for a limited number of workgroups on http://ietf.levkowetz.com/drafts/ - see for instance the 6to4-security draft page under the v6ops drafts area 6. WG page components, provided to all WGs: [WGs, Chairs] * Issue tracker, mailing list integration * Wiki * Collaboration pages * List traffic summary This would make a set of commonly used tools routinely available for all workgroups, and provide an interface to automatically set up and configure the set of tools for a new workgroup. Optionally, the creation of the set of tools for a new workgroup could be fully automatic, triggered by the appearance of meta-information about the new workgroup. 7. Notification service - "mail me when this draft/charter changes" [Community] This provides a selective notification mechanism for general use, complementing the i-d-announce list 8. Html-ized WG agendas [IETF attendees] This transforms ascii format WG agendas, as currently provided for the meetings, so that references to drafts, RFCs and URLs are rendered as HTML links, easily clickable by both those who prepare for a WG meeting, and those who browse the agenda while in a meeting 9. I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs [Chairs, Authors, Secretariat] This would add new states to the I-D tracker, describing the state of drafts while still being in the hands of WGs. This tool would include an interface with restricted write capability, for use by WG chairs to update the draft status to reflect the WG work. 10. Publication request tool [Secretariat, Chairs, Authors (Indep.)] This tool will allow the users to make requests to the IESG to publish existing IDs as RFCs. The IDs will be checked against the ID-nits, and if passed, the IDs will be automatically added to the ID Tracker, and the ADs and Secretariat will be notified. 11. RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... [Tool Builders] This tool will generate RSS and Atom feeds (notifications) from the XML meta-information available for IDs, RFCs, WGs, etc., and provide a standardized alternative to the current i-d-announce and ietf-announce mailing lists. This format will make it possible for individuals and tool-builders to interface in a well-defined way with information from the ietf standards process. 12. Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space [Community] This would provide tools similar to those provided for workgroups, but do so for BOFs and proposed workgroups. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 11:30:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15864; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUSjZ-0005F1-HO; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:32:53 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUSdP-00083n-TB; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:26:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CURYU-0000KC-EL; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:17:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07183; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.execdsl.net ([208.184.15.238] helo=EXECDSL.COM) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CURal-0003GN-FW; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:19:41 -0500 Received: from [64.254.114.114] (HELO JLaptop.stevecrocker.com) by EXECDSL.COM (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3) with ESMTP id 7966599; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:16:58 -0500 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20041117101409.03d904a8@localhost> X-Sender: joel@stevecrocker.com@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:16:36 -0500 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, WG Chairs From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:26:18 -0500 Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 I think that at least some of item 6 is quite important. Specifically, I think that having a problem tracker available to every working group easily would be a good idea. At the moment, in spite of bugging two different people who have in good faith said that they provide such, I have been unable to get one for the WG I was trying to get to use one. (That WG has other problems now.) I think finding a way to make that service available without personal intervention and favors is probably hgher priority even than the automated scheduler, and MUCH easier. Yours, Joel At 09:48 AM 11/17/2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >Summary list: >============= > 1. WG Status update web interface > 2. IETF Meta-information > 3. Components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) > 4. WG Meeting scheduler > 5. Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) > 6. WG page components, provided to all WGs: > 7. Notification service - "mail me when this draft/charter changes" > 8. Html-ized WG agendas > 9. I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs > 10. Publication request tool > 11. RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... > 12. Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space > > >Detailed list: >============== >... > 6. WG page components, provided to all WGs: > [WGs, Chairs] > * Issue tracker, mailing list integration > * Wiki > * Collaboration pages > * List traffic summary > This would make a set of commonly used tools routinely available for > all workgroups, and provide an interface to automatically set up and > configure the set of tools for a new workgroup. Optionally, the creation > of the set of tools for a new workgroup could be fully automatic, > triggered by the appearance of meta-information about the new workgroup. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 12:22:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21436; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:22:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUTYc-0006py-GA; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:25:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUTCG-0000ZQ-1Q; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:02:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUSyx-00064E-4N for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:48:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18047 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from newdev.eecs.harvard.edu ([140.247.60.212] helo=newdev.harvard.edu) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUT1O-0005rV-1b for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:51:07 -0500 Received: by newdev.harvard.edu (Postfix, from userid 501) id D33AE13E547; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:48:02 -0500 (EST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <20041117164802.D33AE13E547@newdev.harvard.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:48:02 -0500 (EST) From: sob@harvard.edu (scott bradner) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 sob ranking (fwiw) 1. I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs to me this is the most important thing - it will give WG chairs the tools they need to manage things and have the info public in a common format 2. Html-ized WG agendas easy(ish) and useful 3. WG Status update web interface easy(ish) and useful 4. Publication request tool the useful part here to me is the ID-nits checker 5. WG page components, provided to all WGs: having all WGs using common tools would help a lot in getting a rational understanding of cross WG status and work could be a lot of work 6. RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... more useful in the future than now but should not be a big task 7. Notification service - "mail me when this draft/charter changes" cute but does not seem high priority 8. WG Meeting scheduler very very hard to do right (from direct experience with class scheduling systems in higher ed) - might be able to buy or get a package (a package might also support individual attendees noting what they are interested in or letting chairs note a list of involved people etc) can't tell from description Components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) I'd think that the priority of this should be an internal matter to the tool builders - if doing a common set of tools first it will speed up other projects or make them easier to maintain it sould like a good thing IETF Meta-information from the description this seems to be a sub part of the "Components needed by multiple tools" task but I can not tell Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) how is this different from the I-D tracker update? Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space why is this different than the WG tools? _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 13:16:37 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26433; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUUOe-0008Av-BI; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:19:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUUB4-0007YH-64; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:05:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUTbJ-0008KP-ES; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:28:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22156; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from nak.isi.edu ([128.9.168.79]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUTdl-000716-Hk; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:30:45 -0500 Received: by nak.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 3494) id C283455E31C; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:27:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:27:39 -0800 From: Aaron Falk To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041117172738.GA2709@isi.edu> Mail-Followup-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, WG Chairs References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Cynicism-Level: 3 Organization: USC ISI X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:05:08 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Summary list: > ============= > 1. WG Status update web interface > 2. IETF Meta-information > 3. Components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) > 4. WG Meeting scheduler > 5. Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) > 6. WG page components, provided to all WGs: > 7. Notification service - "mail me when this draft/charter changes" > 8. Html-ized WG agendas > 9. I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs > 10. Publication request tool > 11. RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... > 12. Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space > Henrik- Nice list. A couple of additional suggestions: - a way for wg chairs to put up meeting agendas themselves (up to the last minute). Relying on secretariat support for this while they are working an IETF meeting seems not to work for understandable reasons. Groups with late-changing agendas either don't have any agenda listed or one which is incorrect. This seems fairly important to me and I'd put it near the top of the list. - a place for wg chairs/presenters to drop presentation files (up to the last minute). Currently this is done very adhoc, if at all. It's worth noting that Lisa Dusseault is making a webdav space available for this purpose (see her recent note to the IETF list). I haven't played with it enough to say whether I think that is the best long term solution or whether it needs some additional development. Since Lisa has a tool out there, I don't see this as urgent but it should probably be on the list so it can be evaluated. --aaron _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 14:19:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01211; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUVN7-0000xl-LX; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:21:44 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUVHB-00046d-Co; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:15:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUV5v-0002Fb-Fr for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:03:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29922 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUV8L-0000f1-4a for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:06:28 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHJ3iJ2068016; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:03:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:03:43 -0700 To: "scott bradner" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items References: <20041117164802.D33AE13E547@newdev.harvard.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041117164802.D33AE13E547@newdev.harvard.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/17 (MST), wrote: > can't tell from description > > Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) > how is this different from the I-D tracker update? AFAIK, ID tracker does not provide much information about drafts that are not submitted for publication. And even for submitted drafts, the tracker focuses on IESG review states/activities. Most IETFers may lose interest after Last Call but need a lot more information as the draft is being created/updated... The draft status page should provide: - draft status (similar to what ID tracker does now) - latest draft version text - latest draft version [XML] sources (if available) - latest draft HTML rendering (if available) - latest draft meta-data - same for older [un-expired] draft versions - generated diffs between any two [un-expired] draft versions - "notify me when this draft changes" knob - etc. (e.g., somebody asked for "obsoletes X" or "renamed to Y" meta-information for drafts) The meta-data would include things like email address for discussing the draft, authors, WG name, etc. It will be provided by the ID Submission tool and/or extracted from the drafts. Other IETF tools will use this meta-data. For example, the tool that generates a WG summary page, would be able to find all individual and WG drafts that are in WG scope. Given a draft name (without the version number), I should be able to link to the latest version of the draft, read an easy-to-navigate rendering, see what has recently changed, where to send comments, etc. Does the above clarify what this item is about? If it does, where would you position this item? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 14:21:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01378; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUVP5-000100-6H; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:23:43 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUVIg-0004Gu-47; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:17:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUV98-0002Xh-UB for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:07:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAB00151 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from newdev.eecs.harvard.edu ([140.247.60.212] helo=newdev.harvard.edu) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUVBY-0000hZ-W8 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:09:48 -0500 Received: by newdev.harvard.edu (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7AC1413F823; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) To: rousskov@measurement-factory.com, sob@harvard.edu, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20041117190640.7AC1413F823@newdev.harvard.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: sob@harvard.edu (scott bradner) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 > AFAIK, ID tracker does not provide much information about drafts that are > not submitted for publication. agreed - but my question was different if the tracker gets updated for WG chair use I would want most of these things anyway - so I was asking if there needs to be two seperate tasks (I think we just need one that includes the sort of thing you mention here) Scott 00000000 AFAIK, ID tracker does not provide much information about drafts that are not submitted for publication. And even for submitted drafts, the tracker focuses on IESG review states/activities. Most IETFers may lose interest after Last Call but need a lot more information as the draft is being created/updated... The draft status page should provide: - draft status (similar to what ID tracker does now) - latest draft version text - latest draft version [XML] sources (if available) - latest draft HTML rendering (if available) - latest draft meta-data - same for older [un-expired] draft versions - generated diffs between any two [un-expired] draft versions - "notify me when this draft changes" knob - etc. (e.g., somebody asked for "obsoletes X" or "renamed to Y" meta-information for drafts) The meta-data would include things like email address for discussing the draft, authors, WG name, etc. It will be provided by the ID Submission tool and/or extracted from the drafts. Other IETF tools will use this meta-data. For example, the tool that generates a WG summary page, would be able to find all individual and WG drafts that are in WG scope. ... _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 14:30:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02589; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUVYM-0001Fw-SE; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:33:21 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUVN6-00052G-76; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:21:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUVIm-0004H1-GQ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:17:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01018; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:17:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUVLC-0000v1-6z; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:19:45 -0500 Received: from [10.20.30.249] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHJH2sE000123; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041117172738.GA2709@isi.edu> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <20041117172738.GA2709@isi.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:05 -0800 To: Aaron Falk , tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: WG Chairs Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 At 9:27 AM -0800 11/17/04, Aaron Falk wrote: >- a way for wg chairs to put up meeting agendas themselves (up to the > last minute). Relying on secretariat support for this while they > are working an IETF meeting seems not to work for understandable > reasons. Groups with late-changing agendas either don't have any > agenda listed or one which is incorrect. This seems fairly > important to me and I'd put it near the top of the list. +1. The folks running the meeting have enough minute-to-minute hotel issues to deal with. >- a place for wg chairs/presenters to drop presentation files (up to > the last minute). Currently this is done very adhoc, if at all. > It's worth noting that Lisa Dusseault is making a webdav space > available for this purpose (see her recent note to the IETF list). > I haven't played with it enough to say whether I think that is the > best long term solution or whether it needs some additional > development. Since Lisa has a tool out there, I don't see this as > urgent but it should probably be on the list so it can be > evaluated. +1. This would allow chairs at the beginning of the meeting to say "go look *here* for the slides" and know they're available to everyone. This might help prevent some of the picture-taking of the screen (might not, of course). It also will help alleviate "could you go back three slides, I'm not sure I understood it" style questions. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 17:06:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24217; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:06:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUXzI-000778-IY; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:09:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUXn5-0007iX-0p; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:56:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUXRs-0006Rh-PJ for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:34:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20384 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyteen.hactrn.net ([66.92.66.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUXUL-0005yl-SN for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:37:19 -0500 Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (thrintun.hactrn.net [IPv6:2002:425c:4242:0:250:daff:fe82:1c39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "thrintun.hactrn.net", Issuer "Grunchweather Associates" (verified OK)) by cyteen.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC719108 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thrintun.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DF0418A for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:34:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:34:05 -0500 From: Rob Austein To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items In-Reply-To: References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <20041117172738.GA2709@isi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20041117213405.54DF0418A@thrintun.hactrn.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 At Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:05 -0800, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > At 9:27 AM -0800 11/17/04, Aaron Falk wrote: > >- a place for wg chairs/presenters to drop presentation files (up to > > the last minute). Currently this is done very adhoc, if at all. > > It's worth noting that Lisa Dusseault is making a webdav space > > available for this purpose (see her recent note to the IETF list). > > I haven't played with it enough to say whether I think that is the > > best long term solution or whether it needs some additional > > development. Since Lisa has a tool out there, I don't see this as > > urgent but it should probably be on the list so it can be > > evaluated. > > +1. This would allow chairs at the beginning of the meeting to say > "go look *here* for the slides" and know they're available to > everyone. This might help prevent some of the picture-taking of the > screen (might not, of course). It also will help alleviate "could you > go back three slides, I'm not sure I understood it" style questions. at the most recent nanog meeting i was amused to note that slides became available on the web site pretty much in real time, ie, the session coordinator was placing the presentations on the web site as the speakers were stepping up to the podium. of course, nanog is fairly agressive about extracting slides from presenters early, even if they do allow revisions (on a case by case basis) up until the last minute. webdav is probably a reasonable way to deal with this. user auth database issues, but all solutions i can think of have that (even if the user auth is just some poor admin person at the secretariat receiving mail and saying "looks plausible, i'll upload it"). _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 17:06:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24308; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:06:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUXzc-00078L-A4; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:09:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUXn5-0007iw-Ob; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:56:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUXSr-000734-On; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:35:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20524; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from salvelinus.brooktrout.com ([204.176.205.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUXVM-00060s-1J; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:38:20 -0500 Received: from nhmail2.needham.brooktrout.com (nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com [204.176.205.242]) by salvelinus.brooktrout.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id iAHLUJOO004972; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:27:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Burger To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:27:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: WG Chairs Subject: [Tools-discuss] RE: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 In both lemonade and speechsc, we've followed the lead of sip/sipping/simple/xcon and setup a supplementary work group web site, where people can get all of the materials real-time. An IETF hosted webdav might just be the trick. The key is the chairs need pretty unrestricted update access to the website to make it work. > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC [mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org] > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 2:17 PM > To: Aaron Falk; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Cc: WG Chairs > Subject: Re: Tools team work items > > > At 9:27 AM -0800 11/17/04, Aaron Falk wrote: > >- a way for wg chairs to put up meeting agendas themselves (up to the > > last minute). Relying on secretariat support for this while they > > are working an IETF meeting seems not to work for understandable > > reasons. Groups with late-changing agendas either don't have any > > agenda listed or one which is incorrect. This seems fairly > > important to me and I'd put it near the top of the list. > > +1. The folks running the meeting have enough minute-to-minute hotel > issues to deal with. > > >- a place for wg chairs/presenters to drop presentation files (up to > > the last minute). Currently this is done very adhoc, if at all. > > It's worth noting that Lisa Dusseault is making a webdav space > > available for this purpose (see her recent note to the IETF list). > > I haven't played with it enough to say whether I think that is the > > best long term solution or whether it needs some additional > > development. Since Lisa has a tool out there, I don't see this as > > urgent but it should probably be on the list so it can be > > evaluated. > > +1. This would allow chairs at the beginning of the meeting to say > "go look *here* for the slides" and know they're available to > everyone. This might help prevent some of the picture-taking of the > screen (might not, of course). It also will help alleviate "could you > go back three slides, I'm not sure I understood it" style questions. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --VPN Consortium > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 18:32:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02127; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZKO-0000dc-F4; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:35:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZ47-0001VY-UM; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:18:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUYsu-0002xr-FQ for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:06:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29494 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUYvP-00008J-HF for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:09:20 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHN6fJ2080279; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:06:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:06:40 -0700 To: "scott bradner" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items References: <20041117190640.7AC1413F823@newdev.harvard.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041117190640.7AC1413F823@newdev.harvard.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/17 (MST), wrote: > if the tracker gets updated for WG chair use I would want most > of these things anyway - so I was asking if there needs to be > two seperate tasks (I think we just need one that includes the > sort of thing you mention here) My understanding is that the two items are related but sufficiently different. The "draft status" item deals with displaying/summarizing virtually all available information about the draft (i.e., "read" mode). The "ID tracker" item deals with providing additional information about the draft (i.e., "write" mode). Personally, I would not merge the two. I do not want one activity to get blocked by another. I also suspect that a few other tools would operate in "write" mode (e.g., ID submission tool or Request for Publication tool). For consistency and simplicity, I would document each separately instead of merging them into a "Things we can do with drafts" draft. On the other hand, there is no harm in giving both items the same position on the priority list. Let's see what others prefer. Does anybody have a strong opinion here? Thank you, Alex. > The draft status page should provide: > - draft status (similar to what ID tracker does now) > - latest draft version text > - latest draft version [XML] sources (if available) > - latest draft HTML rendering (if available) > - latest draft meta-data > - same for older [un-expired] draft versions > - generated diffs between any two [un-expired] draft versions > - "notify me when this draft changes" knob > - etc. (e.g., somebody asked for "obsoletes X" or "renamed to Y" > meta-information for drafts) > > The meta-data would include things like email address for discussing the > draft, authors, WG name, etc. > It will be provided by the ID Submission tool and/or extracted from the > drafts. Other IETF tools will use > this meta-data. For example, the tool that generates a WG summary page, > would be able to find all individual and WG drafts that are in WG scope. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 18:39:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02737; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZRJ-0000pB-M2; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:42:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZGG-00052n-Fv; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:30:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZ2l-0000Xl-DF for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:16:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00975 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZ5G-0000N7-H2 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:19:31 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHNGqJ2080820; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:16:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:16:51 -0700 To: "scott bradner" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items References: <20041117164802.D33AE13E547@newdev.harvard.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041117164802.D33AE13E547@newdev.harvard.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/17 (MST), wrote: > can't tell from description > Components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) > I'd think that the priority of this should be an internal > matter to the tool builders - if doing a common set of > tools first it will speed up other projects or make > them easier to maintain it sould like a good thing > > IETF Meta-information > from the description this seems to be a sub part of the > "Components needed by multiple tools" task but I can not tell We struggled with terminology here and failed to get it clear enough. "Components" item deals with software pieces, libraries, or products that many tools can use. "Meta-information" item deals with what information is available to IETF tools. For example, XML DTDs describing IETF WGs or known IETF participants would belong to the Meta-information item, while the library/tool that helps with participant authentication would belong to the "components" item. The latter tool is likely to use the meta-information about known IETF participants. > Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space > why is this different than the WG tools? I thought that proposed WGs need things that established WGs do not need. For example, established WGs do not need BoF-related tools. I think it would be useful to recognize "proposed WG" as a special category and eventually provide tools/interfaces so that it is easy to setup a "proposed WG" web space, discussion, charter, etc. without giving proposed WGs rights such as publishing WG drafts. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 18:54:27 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03936; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZfe-0001A6-4E; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:57:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZOn-00070K-9s; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:39:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZDf-0004ex-8H; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:28:11 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01860; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from nak.isi.edu ([128.9.168.79]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZGA-0000Yj-6t; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:30:46 -0500 Received: by nak.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 3494) id 1EF55560264; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:27:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:27:38 -0800 From: Aaron Falk To: Eric Burger Message-ID: <20041117232737.GA3574@isi.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Eric Burger , tools-discuss@ietf.org, WG Chairs , Lisa Dusseault References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="envbJBWh7q8WU6mo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Cynicism-Level: 3 Organization: USC ISI X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 42e3ed3f10a1d8bef690f09da16f507a Cc: WG Chairs , Lisa Dusseault , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6ba8aaf827dcb437101951262f69b3de --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Eric Burger wrote: > In both lemonade and speechsc, we've followed the lead of > sip/sipping/simple/xcon and setup a supplementary work group web site, where > people can get all of the materials real-time. > > An IETF hosted webdav might just be the trick. The key is the chairs need > pretty unrestricted update access to the website to make it work. Eric- I'm attaching the email that Lisa sent out last week. She is eager to hear feedback from users. --aaron --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iACG4wi02330 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from engine.ieee.org (engine.ieee.org [140.98.193.23]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iACG4Zt13184 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hormel7.ieee.org (gemini4.ieee.org [140.98.193.189]) by engine.ieee.org (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.2) with ESMTP id iACG4TMP017687 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from vesuvio.ipv6.cselt.it (vesuvio.ipv6.tilab.com [163.162.170.199]) by hormel7.ieee.org (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACG4LaX005281 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from vesuvio.ipv6.cselt.it (localhost.ipv6.cselt.it [127.0.0.1]) by vesuvio.ipv6.cselt.it (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iACFr5lu020337; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:53:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ietf_censored-admin@vesuvio.ipv6.tilab.com) Received: from carmen.ipv6.tilab.com (carmen.ipv6.tilab.com [163.162.170.198]) by vesuvio.ipv6.cselt.it (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iACFqVlu020323 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:52:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from owner-ietf_censored@ngnet.it) Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by carmen.ipv6.tilab.com (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iACFqMEi011681 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:52:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CSdfM-0005lx-CJ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:48:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CSdYC-0003ka-PA for ietf@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:41:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13459 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from kahuna.osafoundation.org ([204.152.186.98]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CSdZb-0002up-AV for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:42:51 -0500 X-Envelope-From: lisa@osafoundation.org X-Envelope-To: Received: from [130.129.135.17] ([130.129.135.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id iACFfHZe011680 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:41:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <4617EB56-34C1-11D9-9C2F-000A95B2BB72@osafoundation.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: ietf@ietf.org From: Lisa Dusseault X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanned-By: IEEE UCE Filtering Service (uce . ieee . org) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 X-Spam-Score: undef - spam-scanning disabled X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Subject: WebDAV server for sharing WG presentations X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Sender: ietf_censored-admin@vesuvio.ipv6.tilab.com Errors-To: ietf_censored-admin@vesuvio.ipv6.tilab.com X-BeenThere: ietf_censored@vesuvio.ipv6.tilab.com List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:41:09 -0800 X-UCE-Filter-Settings: mamadrum redirected to 90_OPT_OUT X-ISI-4-32-5-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-ISI-4-30-3-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ietf_censored-admin@vesuvio.ipv6.tilab.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on boreas.isi.edu X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,OPT_HEADER autolearn=no version=2.64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've previously announced the availability of this server to WG Chairs, now to announce it more widely: http://ietf.webdav.org There are already a few WG directories on this server such as http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav http://ietf.webdav.org/enum If you have presentation material or meeting notes to share with other IETF participants, ask me for an account (tell me what userid you would prefer and what WG you participate in). I am also happy to create top-level directories for each working group if a chair makes that request of me. I also use this server to coordinate edits to my documents with co-authors, granting each of them permission to write the document and making it world-readable. If you do this I recommend to turn on versioning on a resource, then comparing versions becomes possible. I have signed up for email notification when one of my co-authors changes the document, too. There are many other uses for the server, it's a general file-sharing or simple content-management server, supporting WebDAV -- so you can synchronize content locally using a tool like 'sitecopy' or browse using the Windows or Mac OS/X native WebDAV client software. The server is hosted by UCSC, software donated by Xythos, and hardware purchased by myself. Lisa _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ This message was passed through ietf_censored@carmen.ipv6.cselt.it, which is a sublist of ietf@ietf.org. Not all messages are passed. Decisions on what to pass are made solely by IETF_CENSORED ML Administrator (ietf_admin@ngnet.it). --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 19:16:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04946; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUa0j-0001TL-KU; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:18:54 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZg6-0002gC-EM; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:57:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZPS-0007AW-S4 for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:40:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02809 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZRy-0000pP-H7 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:42:58 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1163FA7ADC for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAHNdpj11197; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:39:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411172339.iAHNdpj11197@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:39:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:39:51 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Subject: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc plugin for XMLMind XML Editor X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Folks, I decided to try actually writing something in the xml2rfc format; however, I got irritated when I had to write "&" in my organization name in my usual XML editor (vi). So, I looked around for something else; I picked XMLMind's XML editor since it's written in java (so should be cross-platform) and supports plugins (for WYSIKN authoring). A 0.1 release is available at: http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/xml2rfc-xxe-0.1.zip Unzip this file in your local xxe configuration directory (~/.xxe2/config/ on UNIX and Mac; C:\Documents and Settings\user\xxe2\config\ in Windows) and opening files with the system DTD definition (or using the "New..." template) should give you my plugin. Disclaimer: I know way too little about XML, XPath, CSS and Java to have put something like this together. I will certainly accept bug reports, but can't promise that I can figure out what to do with them ;-) Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 19:48:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08632; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUaVs-0002Ta-Ql; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:51:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUaQk-0007Ic-QR; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:45:46 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZZd-0000fQ-1x; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03597; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUZc5-00014u-Fb; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:53:28 -0500 Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHNomun018774; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:50:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id iAHNol8p022790; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iAHNolUM016650; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from sommerfeld@localhost) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1/Submit) id iAHNodNb016649; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: thunk.east.sun.com: sommerfeld set sender to sommerfeld@sun.com using -f From: Bill Sommerfeld To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:39 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:45:45 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 19:48:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08686; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUaWL-0002UN-ML; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:51:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUaQl-0007Ij-0E; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:45:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUZzR-0007dJ-Az; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:17:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05285; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from machshav.com ([147.28.0.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUa1w-0001ak-5a; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:20:09 -0500 Received: by machshav.com (Postfix, from userid 512) id 83833FB27C; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:57:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from berkshire.research.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by machshav.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3B2FB256; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:57:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from research.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berkshire.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACED1AE8F; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:57:36 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: Paul Hoffman / VPNC In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:05 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:57:36 -0500 Message-Id: <20041117235736.7ACED1AE8F@berkshire.research.att.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:45:45 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs , Aaron Falk , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 In message , Paul Hoffman / VPNC writes: >>- a place for wg chairs/presenters to drop presentation files (up to >> the last minute). Currently this is done very adhoc, if at all. >> It's worth noting that Lisa Dusseault is making a webdav space >> available for this purpose (see her recent note to the IETF list). >> I haven't played with it enough to say whether I think that is the >> best long term solution or whether it needs some additional >> development. Since Lisa has a tool out there, I don't see this as >> urgent but it should probably be on the list so it can be >> evaluated. > >+1. This would allow chairs at the beginning of the meeting to say >"go look *here* for the slides" and know they're available to >everyone. This might help prevent some of the picture-taking of the >screen (might not, of course). It also will help alleviate "could you >go back three slides, I'm not sure I understood it" style questions. This is important. Something I've done in venues that are more connectivity-challenged than the IETF is to set up a dumb web server (bozohttpd) on my laptop, precisely to make it easy for people to download copies of my presentation. Admittedly, the way I do this isn't available to everyone; it would be nice, however, if the essential functionality were. (The cynic in me is fond of pointing out that if people would prepare their talks ahead of time, this would be much less of an issue. The practical side of me notes that I'm at least as fond of last-minute preparation as the next guy...) --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 20:32:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA13223; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUbCH-0003VC-5A; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:34:54 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUb3K-0007WB-Rq; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:25:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUaxi-0006NC-6o; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:19:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11780; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from nak.isi.edu ([128.9.168.79]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUb0D-0003A7-M8; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:22:26 -0500 Received: by nak.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 3494) id 29FA756065B; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:19:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:19:17 -0800 From: Aaron Falk To: Bill Sommerfeld Message-ID: <20041118011915.GI3574@isi.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Bill Sommerfeld , tools-discuss@ietf.org, WG Chairs References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Cynicism-Level: 3 Organization: USC ISI X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Cc: WG Chairs , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document > .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). > "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. I like this idea. --aaron _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 20:48:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA15067; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUbS0-0003uI-DC; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:51:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUbKB-0002dN-8h; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:43:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUan4-0004yS-Md; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:08:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11074; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from kahuna.osafoundation.org ([204.152.186.98]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUapQ-0002zv-J0; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:11:27 -0500 X-Envelope-From: lisa@osafoundation.org X-Envelope-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([198.144.201.116]) (authenticated bits=0) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id iAI18UZe032155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:08:32 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <583017BC-38FE-11D9-81D1-000A95B2BB72@osafoundation.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lisa Dusseault Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:08:23 -0800 To: Bill Sommerfeld X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:43:01 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's rudimentary version history available if you turn it on, for documents at http://ietf.webdav.org. For example, click on the 'info' button for the XML file in this collection: http://ietf.webdav.org/xythoswfs/webui/caldav/ Diffs must be done manually and locally or presumably somebody could set up a separate site. Lisa On Nov 17, 2004, at 3:50 PM, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document > .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). > "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 20:48:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA15089; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:48:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUbSK-0003uZ-PL; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:51:28 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUbKB-0002dS-E8; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:43:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUb6f-0008Ke-4a; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:29:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12510; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from figas.ekabal.com ([157.22.13.42]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUb9B-0003LO-8p; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:31:41 -0500 Received: from [192.168.2.169] (da001d4094.stl-mo.osd.concentric.net [66.236.111.254]) (authenticated) by figas.ekabal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iAI1SsC16598; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:28:54 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <31E7F115-3901-11D9-96EE-000D93C60450@ekabal.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Rohan Mahy Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:28:47 -0800 To: Bill Sommerfeld X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:43:01 -0500 Cc: Rohan Mahy , tools-discuss@ietf.org, WG Chairs Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 17, 2004, at 15:50, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document > .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). > "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. A handful of folks active in the SIP community have been using the subversion repository at sipfoundry.org to store the XML source for our drafts. Using CVS or SVN makes shared editing much easier, and also allows someone with lots of comments to checkout a copy, edit the source and either send a patch to the editor or just check in their proposed changes. It also means that anyone with authorization (usually everyone) can *read* the source of these documents. I consider this a great feature. thanks, -rohan _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 20:49:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA15165; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUbSt-0003vK-27; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:52:03 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUbKB-0002dX-KA; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:43:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUbG8-0001tL-Ss; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:38:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14244; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from figas.ekabal.com ([157.22.13.42]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUbIf-0003ia-Cc; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:41:29 -0500 Received: from [192.168.2.169] (da001d4094.stl-mo.osd.concentric.net [66.236.111.254]) (authenticated) by figas.ekabal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iAI1ckC16715; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:38:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: <31E7F115-3901-11D9-96EE-000D93C60450@ekabal.com> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> <31E7F115-3901-11D9-96EE-000D93C60450@ekabal.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <9317D4F8-3902-11D9-96EE-000D93C60450@ekabal.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Rohan Mahy Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:38:40 -0800 To: Rohan Mahy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:43:01 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs , Bill Sommerfeld , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh yeah, One last thing. In order to get write access to a particular project on sipfoundry, the contributor needs to agree to the license terms of that particular project. For the "internet-drafts" project, that license is RFC 3667. That way, when someone checks in text, there are no questions about compliance with the IETF boilerplate, contributor IPR disclosures, etc.. thx, -r On Nov 17, 2004, at 17:28, Rohan Mahy wrote: > On Nov 17, 2004, at 15:50, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: >> one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document >> .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). >> "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. > > A handful of folks active in the SIP community have been using the > subversion repository at sipfoundry.org to store the XML source for > our drafts. Using CVS or SVN makes shared editing much easier, and > also allows someone with lots of comments to checkout a copy, edit the > source and either send a patch to the editor or just check in their > proposed changes. It also means that anyone with authorization > (usually everyone) can *read* the source of these documents. I > consider this a great feature. > > thanks, > -rohan _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 04:01:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02332; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 04:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUiDJ-00044g-4F; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 04:04:25 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUi7l-00008D-L7; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:58:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUi3f-0007r8-Rx; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:54:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA02016; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from salvelinus.brooktrout.com ([204.176.205.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUi6F-0003pW-Vv; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:57:08 -0500 Received: from nhmail2.needham.brooktrout.com (nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com [204.176.205.242]) by salvelinus.brooktrout.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id iAI8mXA4018874; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:48:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:45:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Burger To: Rohan Mahy Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:45:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: WG Chairs , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] RE: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 This is an excellent idea, both the 3667 stuff *and* being able to automagically get diffs. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rohan Mahy [mailto:rohan@ekabal.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:39 PM > To: Rohan Mahy > Cc: WG Chairs; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Tools team work items > > > Oh yeah, > > One last thing. In order to get write access to a particular project > on sipfoundry, the contributor needs to agree to the license terms of > that particular project. For the "internet-drafts" project, that > license is RFC 3667. That way, when someone checks in text, > there are > no questions about compliance with the IETF boilerplate, contributor > IPR disclosures, etc.. > > thx, > -r > > > On Nov 17, 2004, at 17:28, Rohan Mahy wrote: > > > On Nov 17, 2004, at 15:50, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > >> one possibly missing piece: a change control repository > for document > >> .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like > history/change browser). > >> "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. > > > > A handful of folks active in the SIP community have been using the > > subversion repository at sipfoundry.org to store the XML source for > > our drafts. Using CVS or SVN makes shared editing much easier, and > > also allows someone with lots of comments to checkout a > copy, edit the > > source and either send a patch to the editor or just check in their > > proposed changes. It also means that anyone with authorization > > (usually everyone) can *read* the source of these documents. I > > consider this a great feature. > > > > thanks, > > -rohan > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 06:22:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14425; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUkP6-00070w-TE; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:24:45 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUkLm-0005TS-S1; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:21:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUkL3-0005Jv-4W for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:20:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14307 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUkNe-0006yE-Su for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:23:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC7C61C2A; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:20:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21915-02; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:20:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084EA61BDA; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:20:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:25:13 -0500 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20041117190640.7AC1413F823@newdev.harvard.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On onsdag, november 17, 2004 16:06:40 -0700 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On the other hand, there is no harm in giving both items the same > position on the priority list. note - in practice, there is no such thing as "the same position on the priority list". another note - we need to separate our thinking a bit between tools and databases. we need (IMHO) one unified database of "what's the state of this draft", possibly with multiple databases "hanging on the side" of that for related-but-not-the-same information (such as IESG ballots or WG issue trackers). and we need multiple tools (I-D submission tool, IESG processing tool, publication request tool, WG shepherding tool) that interfaces to this database. In some cases (problem-area wikis?), there is no need for a common database. But we'll have a hard time discussing what to do first if we continue to mix "which databases do we need" with "which tools do we need to manipulate the data". Just my NOK 0.50 (smallest coin available here...) _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 07:25:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18953; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:25:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUlOT-0008DX-QP; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:28:10 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUlJ8-0008WN-34; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:22:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUlG4-0007rU-Ng; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:19:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18616; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUlIg-00087M-U1; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:22:11 -0500 Received: by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 506EA37ED7; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:18:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CBD37E4D; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:18:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D1A37E59; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:18:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CUlFV-0002mN-EK; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:18:53 +0100 Message-ID: <419C932D.2010904@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:18:53 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aaron Falk References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <20041117172738.GA2709@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <20041117172738.GA2709@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: WG Chairs , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Thanks -- on 2004-11-17 6:27 pm Aaron Falk said the following: > Nice list. A couple of additional suggestions: > > - a way for wg chairs to put up meeting agendas themselves (up to the > last minute). Relying on secretariat support for this while they > are working an IETF meeting seems not to work for understandable > reasons. Groups with late-changing agendas either don't have any > agenda listed or one which is incorrect. This seems fairly > important to me and I'd put it near the top of the list. This is indeed intended to be part of the "WG Meeting Scheduler" item, see the detailed description for that. > - a place for wg chairs/presenters to drop presentation files (up to > the last minute). Currently this is done very adhoc, if at all. > It's worth noting that Lisa Dusseault is making a webdav space > available for this purpose (see her recent note to the IETF list). > I haven't played with it enough to say whether I think that is the > best long term solution or whether it needs some additional > development. Since Lisa has a tool out there, I don't see this as > urgent but it should probably be on the list so it can be > evaluated. Ok, point taken. This would fit in either the "WG Meeting Scheduler" item, the "WG page" item, or both. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 07:26:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA19079; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUlPt-0008F6-8m; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:29:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUlJl-0000Gu-QJ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:23:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUlJ0-0008V3-G4; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:22:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18731; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUlLb-00089Z-Ox; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:25:13 -0500 Received: by av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id F14DD37ED5; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:21:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16FA37E4B; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:21:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A6937E45; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:21:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CUlIT-0002qc-Jb; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:21:57 +0100 Message-ID: <419C93E5.30006@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:21:57 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Sommerfeld References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> In-Reply-To: <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: WG Chairs , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-11-18 12:50 am Bill Sommerfeld said the following: > one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document > .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). > "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. It was conceived that something like this would be part of the "Draft Status Pages" item - I'm adding a clarification on the Wiki. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 10:38:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA04350; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUoP6-0003xj-2X; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:41:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUoFj-0003hd-Ty; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:31:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUo3P-0007rk-Ub; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:18:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02810; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUo62-0003ab-Q8; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:21:20 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE417A7BB2; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAIFI3C23272; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:18:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411181518.iAIFI3C23272@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: eburger@brooktrout.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: Tools team work items Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:18:01 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 I didn't get around to it for this meeting, but that was one of the intended purposes of the content management system on http://rtg.ietf.org/ -- allowing presenters to upload their presentations right before the meeting and letting others download them. The PCE bof did do this, and I think it worked well. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 19:12:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07540; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwQb-0003ae-CT; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:15:05 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwGQ-0007LS-Ag; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:04:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwAM-0005VD-6y; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:58:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06164; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwD3-0003EE-MJ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:01:07 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAINwFJ2049796; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:58:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAINwFN3049795; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:58:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:58:15 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Tools team work items In-Reply-To: <419C93E5.30006@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20041118164153.T39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <419B64D5.3000504@levkowetz.com> <1100735438.16324.21.camel@thunk> <419C93E5.30006@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: WG Chairs , Bill Sommerfeld , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > on 2004-11-18 12:50 am Bill Sommerfeld said the following: >> one possibly missing piece: a change control repository for document >> .xml sources (ideally including a cvsweb-like history/change browser). >> "sourceforge for IETF". use would of course be optional.. > > It was conceived that something like this would be part of the > "Draft Status Pages" item - I'm adding a clarification on the Wiki. Clarification: There are two very useful and totally separate items here, IMO: 1) Draft status page with diffs for posted draft versions. 2) IETF-forge: sourceforge-like functionality to allow IETF authors and WGs to concurrently edit drafts, post presentations, etc., all without Secretariat involvement/assistance. Neither is limited to XML sources, of course. Both are already on the list, but I do not think the second one was documented explicitly enough in item 6 "WG page components, provided to all WGs". It may be more appropriately named "WG site components". IMO, we should provide IETF-forge sites for individual IETF drafts as well. Disk space is cheap. Good software scales well. Thank you, Alex. P.S. Hmm... Once most WGs use IETF-forge to edit drafts, folks may start looking for most recent versions on IETF-forge pages instead of official IETF archives. Not sure whether that is a problem and how to address it. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 20 10:56:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02790; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVXdm-0007uQ-0m; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:59:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVXU9-00062Q-A8; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:49:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVXL8-0004jT-Tb for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:39:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01828; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:39:52 -0500 (EST) From: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com ([131.228.20.26]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVXOB-0007cK-L7; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:43:05 -0500 Received: from esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (esdks001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.120]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id iAKFdoS28207; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:39:50 +0200 (EET) X-Scanned: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:41:58 +0200 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.31 2004060815 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id iAKFfw06029296; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:41:58 +0200 Received: from mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.96) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com 00AAiDwl; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:41:56 EET Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh002.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.77]) by mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id iAKFdLa12823; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:39:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:39:21 +0200 Received: from esebe056.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.51]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:39:21 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:39:21 +0200 Message-ID: <125EA890549C8641A72F3809CB80DCCD1783C9@esebe056.ntc.nokia.com> Thread-Topic: Mangling of Internet-drafts getting worse... Thread-Index: AcTPFxm+sjSZp04hQjeRvsxat4BC4w== To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2004 15:39:21.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A936040:01C4CF17] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Tools-discuss] Mangling of Internet-drafts getting worse... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I've sort of gotten used to having two empty lines between=20 paragraphs, and I never submit multiple drafts in one e-mail,=20 but now it's getting worse: In (at least) draft-ietf-aaa-eap-10 and draft-ietf-tls-psk-03,=20 all circumflex characters have been stripped. This turned e.g.=20 "2^32" (two to the 32th power) to "232" (two hundred and thirty two). In addition to this, there are less serious differences: all=20 the formfeeds are missing, and in draft-ietf-tls-psk-03, three=20 newlines were added in the middle of three different lines=20 (each instance was separated by almost exactly 8000 characters,=20 which probably isn't a coincidence).=20 The other differences don't really matter, but the circumflex is something I'd like to get fixed. Any ideas how to do it? As far as I can tell, the attachment is OK when it leaves my system (Content-Disposition is set to "attachment",=20 Content-Type is "text/plain", Content-Transfer-Encoding is base64). And when I send the message to my other mailbox,=20 PINE can read and save it just fine (with all circumflexes=20 and formfeeds intact). Needless to say, I support having a web-based submission=20 interface in the future... but I'm wondering if accepting=20 ZIP files would be a reasonable temporary fix until we have=20 the new system in place? (At least they have a CRC32 checksum which should detect accidental modifications.) Best regards, Pasi _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 20 16:46:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00664; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVd7R-00075r-CA; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:50:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVd1x-0007Rn-5q; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:44:29 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVcxk-0006QM-JL for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:40:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00136 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVd0r-0006wR-LD for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:43:22 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAKLe6J2071965; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:40:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAKLe634071964; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:40:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:40:06 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangling of Internet-drafts getting worse... In-Reply-To: <125EA890549C8641A72F3809CB80DCCD1783C9@esebe056.ntc.nokia.com> Message-ID: <20041120143733.K55387@measurement-factory.com> References: <125EA890549C8641A72F3809CB80DCCD1783C9@esebe056.ntc.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote: > The other differences don't really matter, but the circumflex > is something I'd like to get fixed. Any ideas how to do it? I would send a URL or a compressed file, along with the explanation why you are doing it. Since submission is handled by friendly humans, they can handle interface exceptions easily. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 22 18:00:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02740; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWNDr-00042U-C1; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:03:51 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWN34-00089u-QH; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:52:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWMnk-0002mq-0S; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:36:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29781; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWMrH-0000SU-3X; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:40:31 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[10.37.1.31]) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CWMnh-0006Nv-00; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:36:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: avezza@mailbox.cnri.reston.va.us Message-Id: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:36:39 -0500 To: IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion From: Albert Vezza Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist , bfuller@foretec.com X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d After more testing we determined that a filter could be placed to intercept email sent to internet-drafts@ietf.org and proceedings@ietf.org and ensure email containing attachments sent to those addresses had a "Content-disposition: attachment" as part of the file header. A preliminary filter changing "Content-disposition: inline" to "Content-disposition: attachment" was placed in service on 11/18/04. We will soon have a more comprehensive filter in place that will also handle email from older composers that do not specify a "Content-disposition:". I will send an update when that filter is in place. We belive that this will take care of all three problems that have been observed: concatenated files, extra linefeeds in IDs, and missing form-feed. If such problems are found in the future please let us know so we can track down the problem. Al -- Albert Vezza President Foretec Seminars, Inc 1895 Preston White Drive Suite 100 Reston, VA 20191-5434 Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com Tel: (703) 620-9053 Fax: (703) 620-9071 Natick, MA Office Tel: (508) 650 4020 Fax: (508) 650 4639 _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 22 18:25:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05779; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWNc2-0007Ho-1A; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:28:50 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWNRi-0003NZ-0R; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:18:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWNOI-0000mM-NG; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:14:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04478; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es ([213.172.48.142] helo=consulintel.es) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWNRp-00060L-OX; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:18:18 -0500 Received: from [10.10.10.101] ([217.126.187.160]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.2.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000604604.msg; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:19:13 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:12:12 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on mail.consulintel.es X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=no version=2.64 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:19:44 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:19:44 +0100 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist , bfuller@foretec.com X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Albert, all, As someone already indicated, it will be helpful anyway to allow sending zip and tar files. Some corporate email servers compress all the attachments, and actually is not so easy for some to tell their IT services not to compress attachments sent to IETF ;-) On the other way around, this doesn't harm to the process, right ? Regards, Jordi > De: Albert Vezza > Responder a: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org > Fecha: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:36:39 -0500 > Para: IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team > Discussion > CC: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist > , bfuller@foretec.com > Asunto: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts > > After more testing we determined that a filter could be placed to > intercept email sent to internet-drafts@ietf.org and > proceedings@ietf.org and ensure email containing attachments sent to > those addresses had a "Content-disposition: attachment" as part of > the file header. > > A preliminary filter changing "Content-disposition: inline" to > "Content-disposition: attachment" was placed in service on 11/18/04. > We will soon have a more comprehensive filter in place that will > also handle email from older composers that do not specify a > "Content-disposition:". I will send an update when that filter is in > place. > > We belive that this will take care of all three problems that have > been observed: concatenated files, extra linefeeds in IDs, and > missing form-feed. If such problems are found in the future please > let us know so we can track down the problem. > > Al > -- > Albert Vezza > President > Foretec Seminars, Inc > 1895 Preston White Drive > Suite 100 > Reston, VA 20191-5434 > > Internet mail: avezza@foretec.com > Tel: (703) 620-9053 > Fax: (703) 620-9071 > > Natick, MA Office > Tel: (508) 650 4020 > Fax: (508) 650 4639 > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > ********************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 05:16:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23507; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWXmp-0000B4-5P; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:20:39 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWXdK-0001cm-Rq; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:10:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWXVB-0000PY-2V; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:02:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA22321; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWXYp-0006h4-9k; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:06:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381D961BFF; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:01:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11122-02; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:01:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA9D61B94; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:01:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:01:47 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es, IESG , WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts Message-ID: <6345F6301BC7B0D38C3ABDE2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dinaras@foretec.com, rbunch@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist , bfuller@foretec.com X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On tirsdag, november 23, 2004 00:12:12 +0100 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Hi Albert, all, > > As someone already indicated, it will be helpful anyway to allow sending > zip and tar files. > > Some corporate email servers compress all the attachments, and actually is > not so easy for some to tell their IT services not to compress attachments > sent to IETF ;-) > > On the other way around, this doesn't harm to the process, right ? Well, it did once.... I believe the ban on zip files was introduced a few years ago (between Nov 2001 and Jan 2002, the Wayback Machine says) because of an incident where a zip file contained a virus....... virus detection (and procedures for opening zip files) may have improved by now, but I think it's up to the secretariat if they want to rescind this ban. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 16:43:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07488; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWiV4-0002h3-Hi; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:47:03 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWiGx-0001fo-PT; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:32:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWho7-0008I7-9b; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:02:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29046; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:02:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWhrn-0004DW-RY; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:06:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iANL1oW23895; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:01:55 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:01:49 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Albert Vezza Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mangled Internet-Drafts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: bfuller@foretec.com, WG Chairs , IESG , Tools Team Discussion , rbunch@foretec.com, dinaras@foretec.com, mlee@foretec.com, Scott Blomquist X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Hi, On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Albert Vezza wrote: > We belive that this will take care of all three problems that have been > observed: concatenated files, extra linefeeds in IDs, and missing form-feed. > If such problems are found in the future please let us know so we can track > down the problem. For what it's worth, my I-Ds had been mangled in the past, but an I-D published today came through OK. So I believe the fix has been effective. Thanks! -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 18:48:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27679; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYvLK-0002om-1k; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:54:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYv8m-0004c0-Uy; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:41:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYv1j-0003NM-Uj for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:33:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26626 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYv6i-0002VA-KK for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:39:00 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0174A7BB0 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iATNXIj06598; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:33:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411292333.iATNXIj06598@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc plugin for XMLMind XML Editor Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:33:17 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad I've released a version 0.2 of my plugin; it's fairly usable now so I probably won't do too much more in the short term. So that I don't keep spamming the list, I set up a web page for it: http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/xml2rfc-xxe/ Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 30 11:50:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06094; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZBIP-00006Y-Nw; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:56:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZB0D-0006sr-U9; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:37:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZAnh-0003Wk-KF for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:24:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03588 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZAsq-0007qP-Jb for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:29:44 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAUGONJ2082651; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:24:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Markus Hofmann" References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041130010821.05230160@mail.utel.net> <41ABDEA7.1020705@mhof.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:24:23 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <41ABDEA7.1020705@mhof.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] New charter deadlines become pastdue while new charter is being approved X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2004/11/29 (MST), wrote: > Funny that charter approvals take their time, but deadlines are never > adjusted accordingly... Yeah. When my company sends out a development proposal, we usually make all deadlines relative to the purchase order date. Perhaps IETF WGs should do the same and use charter approval date as a reference point for all deadlines. An "approval date + N days" scheme is something the Charter management tools might be able to automate, so I am CCing the Tools team. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss