From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 03:20:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0a1n-0001IL-J9; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:20:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0a1j-0001Fn-Vv for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:20:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA07034 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:20:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com Received: from mgw-ext03.nokia.com ([131.228.20.95]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0aYa-0001OH-4s for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:54:24 -0400 Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-ext03.nokia.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j747GU5a030761 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:16:30 +0300 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:20:25 +0300 Received: from esebe105.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.53]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:20:25 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:20:25 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Feature suggestion for ID tracker Thread-Index: AcWYxPtYh3K8dPGZTfiUlKxO5MEE9g== To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 07:20:25.0742 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBEAFAE0:01C598C4] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Tools-discuss] Feature suggestion for ID tracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi, In some drafts I've recently worked on, there have been big delays (like six months) in the "AD Evaluation" and/or "AD Followup" stages. Some of these delays have been due to lazy authors (including=20 myself), but in some cases, one contributing factor has been that=20 it was not clear who was supposed to do something next. Or in other words, the authors thought they're waiting for the AD to do something, and the AD thought he/she is waiting for the authors... So, I'd propose adding "who has the next action" field to the ID tracker. When the draft moves to AD Evaluation/AD Followup, this could be automatically set to the AD. But during the process, the AD (or perhaps someone else as well) could change this field to indicate that they're waiting for someone else before proceeding. The tracker could also have a page that would allow an AD see all the drafts where he/she has the next action. And drafts where the ball has been in the AD's court for more than a month could be shown in red and blinking text :-) (This might help situations where ADs progress some drafts rather quickly, but others sit in the queue forever...) Any thoughts about this? Would this help the process? Are the any challenges in actually implementing this that I haven't thought about? (It's not exactly clear who else than AD could change this information, and how to ensure it gets changed...) Best regards, Pasi _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 09:25:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0fie-00008j-HR; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:25:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0fic-00008e-1O for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:25:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09558 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtagate2.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.151]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0gFV-0002Ts-1D for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:59:05 -0400 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate2.de.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j74DOseA145412 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:24:54 GMT Received: from d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.228]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j74DOsPu196140 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:24:54 +0200 Received: from d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j74DOsqT022883 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:24:54 +0200 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j74DOspf022880; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:24:54 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-218-160.de.ibm.com [9.146.218.160]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA68390; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:24:53 +0200 Message-ID: <42F21724.4070400@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:24:52 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Feature suggestion for ID tracker References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Pasi, as far as I can see "who has next action" is always clear (except for Dead state). For example New I-D Needed ==> authors, AD Follow-up ==> AD, etc. What is missing, and which is in the wish list already, is generation of periodic reminders automatically, every N weeks, if the state doesn't change. Brian Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote: > Hi, > > In some drafts I've recently worked on, there have been big delays > (like six months) in the "AD Evaluation" and/or "AD Followup" > stages. Some of these delays have been due to lazy authors (including > myself), but in some cases, one contributing factor has been that > it was not clear who was supposed to do something next. > > Or in other words, the authors thought they're waiting for the AD to > do something, and the AD thought he/she is waiting for the authors... > > So, I'd propose adding "who has the next action" field to the ID > tracker. When the draft moves to AD Evaluation/AD Followup, this could > be automatically set to the AD. But during the process, the AD (or > perhaps someone else as well) could change this field to indicate that > they're waiting for someone else before proceeding. > > The tracker could also have a page that would allow an AD see all the > drafts where he/she has the next action. And drafts where the ball has > been in the AD's court for more than a month could be shown in red and > blinking text :-) > > (This might help situations where ADs progress some drafts rather > quickly, but others sit in the queue forever...) > > Any thoughts about this? Would this help the process? Are the > any challenges in actually implementing this that I haven't > thought about? (It's not exactly clear who else than AD could > change this information, and how to ensure it gets changed...) > > Best regards, > Pasi > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 09:38:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0fvx-00044t-LY; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:38:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0fvw-00044j-Do for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:38:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10506 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.71] helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0gSp-00030E-5n for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:12:52 -0400 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2005 06:38:42 -0700 Received: from imail.cisco.com (imail.cisco.com [128.107.200.91]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j74DcdQM011337; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [86.255.29.158] (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp4310.cisco.com [10.61.80.213]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j74DZurK018924; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:35:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: <42F21724.4070400@zurich.ibm.com> References: <42F21724.4070400@zurich.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Feature suggestion for ID tracker Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:38:35 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=222; t=1123162558; x=1123594758; c=nowsp; s=nebraska; h=Subject:From:Date:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=Subject:Re=3A=20[Tools-discuss]=20Feature=20suggestion=20for=20ID=20tracker| From:Fred=20Baker=20| Date:Thu,=204=20Aug=202005=2015=3A38=3A35=20+0200| Content-Type:text/plain=3B=20charset=3DUS-ASCII=3B=20format=3Dflowed| Content-Transfer-Encoding:7bit; b=coSZ0a4w5aJWkQNDpLK+avDvW/DXb7nZpbWFpy2JDIP6vo05kleZTfccLDc2IWISWIrLFpzq FsO9haPa8mZCRROM/zngPBKVNZNFlZ0BcKfbM4P5HI+zlnmuMvdp70LQ0EfzfUWUz4uuGutEIWt phME9TwyB2xsz2e+H8XG0gB0= Authentication-Results: imail.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( message from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At least in some cases, that doesn't seem to be maintained... On Aug 4, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Pasi, as far as I can see "who has next action" is always clear > (except for Dead state). For example New I-D Needed ==> authors, > AD Follow-up ==> AD, etc. > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 09:45:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0g2G-0005h8-RT; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:45:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0g2F-0005h3-Dq for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:45:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11007 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:45:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com Received: from mgw-ext04.nokia.com ([131.228.20.96]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0gZ8-0003Ji-3z for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:19:23 -0400 Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-ext04.nokia.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j74Dd67Z011908; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:39:07 +0300 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:45:20 +0300 Received: from esebe105.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.53]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:45:20 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] Feature suggestion for ID tracker Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:45:19 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Feature suggestion for ID tracker Thread-Index: AcWY+DnO1nP+7V0KSBqk56UEln2LjgAAH36w To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 13:45:20.0466 (UTC) FILETIME=[C1723320:01C598FA] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 > Pasi, as far as I can see "who has next action" is always clear > (except for Dead state). For example New I-D Needed =3D=3D> authors, > AD Follow-up =3D=3D> AD, etc. I wish it was that simple... One draft I'm working on has been in=20 "AD Followup" state for 6 months now. During that time, there have=20 been several email exchanges between the authors and the AD, three=20 new versions of the I-D to address the results of those emails, and=20 long periods of time when nothing happened (partly because nobody=20 knew who had the next action). > What is missing, and which is in the wish list already, is > generation of periodic reminders automatically, every N weeks, > if the state doesn't change. It sounds this feature could address roughly the same problem=20 (e.g., get the AD to check the status periodically, and if he/she=20 thinks the ball is in the author's court, change state to=20 "New I-D Needed"). Best regards, Pasi _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 11:20:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hW2-0002Bh-6o; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:20:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hW0-0002Bc-SY for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:20:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18568 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtagate4.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.137]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0i2t-0006q9-D7 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:54:13 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate4.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j74FJxqQ320900 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:19:59 GMT Received: from d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.216]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j74FJxYk288458 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:19:59 +0100 Received: from d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j74ELfhO025130 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:21:41 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j74ELeje025110; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:21:41 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-131-90.de.ibm.com [9.145.131.90]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA40432; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:19:57 +0200 Message-ID: <42F2321C.6030501@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:19:56 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Feature suggestion for ID tracker References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>Pasi, as far as I can see "who has next action" is always clear >>(except for Dead state). For example New I-D Needed ==> authors, >>AD Follow-up ==> AD, etc. > > > I wish it was that simple... One draft I'm working on has been in > "AD Followup" state for 6 months now. During that time, there have > been several email exchanges between the authors and the AD, three > new versions of the I-D to address the results of those emails, and > long periods of time when nothing happened (partly because nobody > knew who had the next action). Yes, that can happen without any state change in the tracker. I'm not sure there is an easy answer. If both sides of the mail exchange are very busy people, these things can be very laborious. > > >>What is missing, and which is in the wish list already, is >>generation of periodic reminders automatically, every N weeks, >>if the state doesn't change. > > > It sounds this feature could address roughly the same problem > (e.g., get the AD to check the status periodically, and if he/she > thinks the ball is in the author's court, change state to > "New I-D Needed"). I don't know about automatic state changes, but the case above certainly seems that it should have flipped between "AD Followup" and "New I-D Needed" a couple of times. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 11:37:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hml-00065A-Im; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:37:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hmk-000652-Bi for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:37:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19807 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail121.messagelabs.com ([216.82.241.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0iJc-0007R1-18 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:11:31 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1123169836!3969054!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [192.128.133.132] Received: (qmail 4839 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2005 15:37:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maillennium.att.com) (192.128.133.132) by server-10.tower-121.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2005 15:37:16 -0000 Received: from [135.70.101.107] (unknown[135.70.101.107](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20050804153624gw100giproe> (Authid: tony); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:36:24 +0000 Message-ID: <42F23629.8020108@att.com> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:37:13 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-discuss] suggestion for id-draft diff tool X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org The wg tool pages let you see the diffs for draft-wg-foo version N versus N-1 for N>0. For documents that started out as individual submissions, it would be nice to see this carried further into comparisons from N=0 into the individual submission series. One way to accomplish this would be to let the author or WG chair indicate the relationship between a document and an earlier document with a different name. For example, the I-D submission tool could let such a field be filled in whenever a -00 document is submitted. Links between older documents could be added through a link on the wg draft tool page. Tony Hansen tony@att.com _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 04 11:43:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hs5-0000mS-Ho; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:43:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hs4-0000lD-Ut for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:43:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20246 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0iOy-0007ei-8U for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:17:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j74Fgi505401; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:42:44 +0300 Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:42:44 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Tony Hansen Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] suggestion for id-draft diff tool In-Reply-To: <42F23629.8020108@att.com> Message-ID: References: <42F23629.8020108@att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Tony Hansen wrote: > One way to accomplish this would be to let the author or WG chair > indicate the relationship between a document and an earlier document > with a different name. For example, the I-D submission tool could let > such a field be filled in whenever a -00 document is submitted. Links > between older documents could be added through a link on the wg draft > tool page. Actually, you can even tell the secretariat which drafts obsolete the others, and this info is available from the tracker (look for e.g., draft-ietf-v6ops-security-overview). -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 05 13:57:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E16Rb-0005r9-OG; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:57:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0epH-0003GO-9A for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:27:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01245 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200508041227.IAA01245@ietf.org> Received: from dx28.winwebhosting.com ([70.85.77.84]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0fMA-0007zu-Dh for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:01:54 -0400 Received: from neustargw.va.neustar.com ([209.173.53.233] helo=BROSENLT41xp) by dx28.winwebhosting.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1E0eou-0000EU-Q5 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:27:35 -0500 From: "Brian Rosen" To: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:27:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcWY3/7Ow+MDXrdqSIWX2OQuxQNVMQADe0mg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 In-Reply-To: <42F1EE87.6000309@levkowetz.com> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - dx28.winwebhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - brianrosen.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:57:18 -0400 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Providing data on I-D progression X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org One of the things we keep harping on is how long it takes to get a draft into an RFC. Of course that begs the question of how long does it really take? We now have ways of measuring progress when a draft reaches the IESG, but no way to track before then. One of the reasons is that drafts frequently change names. I wonder if we could arrange to insert a token of some kind in drafts which we allow authors to copy as we progress a draft. The basic idea is that a real, no predecessor -00 draft gets a new token, and that token is repeated in any subsequent drafts. If two drafts are split or merged, tokens follow. A merge would result in a document having more than one token. We would need a function to generate a token, a way to put the token(s) in the draft that a tool could find, and a tool to capture the path of the token through the process. I would think that we could write a very simple rule set for how you manipulated the tokens, and we advertise that because each draft author gets to decide himself whether a new token is needed, or an old token is copied, when an -00 draft is generated, that the statistics we get are subject to varying interpretation of that guidance. I think a meaningless string is the best token. You could use a date and a sequence number, but that might lead to someone altering the token. A simple "tracker-token=" just after a CRLF would be enough. We could get some xml2rfc help perhaps. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 05 14:32:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E16zZ-00047t-2G; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:32:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E16zX-00047o-9X for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:32:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24865 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E17We-0007eP-3N for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:06:38 -0400 Received: by av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7FB6E37EF9; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.101]) by av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B60637E8F; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-224-201-50-no45.tbcn.telia.com [81.224.201.50]) by smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B408337E43; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:32:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] ident=henrik) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E16zE-0006Lx-0p; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:32:05 +0200 Message-ID: <42F3B09C.9030504@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:31:56 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] suggestion for id-draft diff tool References: <42F23629.8020108@att.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: Tony Hansen , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1780525062==" Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1780525062== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig70F421FA89E2E5FBF0F3FEF1" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig70F421FA89E2E5FBF0F3FEF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2005-08-04 17:42 Pekka Savola said the following: > On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Tony Hansen wrote: >> One way to accomplish this would be to let the author or WG chair >> indicate the relationship between a document and an earlier document >> with a different name. For example, the I-D submission tool could let >> such a field be filled in whenever a -00 document is submitted. Links >> between older documents could be added through a link on the wg draft >> tool page. > > Actually, you can even tell the secretariat which drafts obsolete the > others, and this info is available from the tracker (look for e.g., > draft-ietf-v6ops-security-overview). Yes, where the tracker has this information, I also have it available as a list of drafts which are replaced by other drafts. I'll add code to look for this to the draft pages. Good idea. Already today, when a -00 document is submitted, it is possible to tell the secretariat that it replaces an earlier document, and that information will be recorded. However, not all authors or chairs know that this is possible, and thus don't use it. For the I-D submission tool, it is a good idea to have a "replaces" field for -00 documents, and that is actually already part of the requirements. Henrik --------------enig70F421FA89E2E5FBF0F3FEF1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFC87CieVhrtTJkXCMRAl03AJ4vQ0PQrmzUfSOAMdQY4mUs18PN7wCcCFJG 8EN4Ja9Qbms41aoPE0C9T+4= =9tkK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig70F421FA89E2E5FBF0F3FEF1-- --===============1780525062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============1780525062==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 08 03:51:22 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E22Pq-00058J-1q; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 03:51:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E22Po-000582-1G for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 03:51:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA06071 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 03:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtagate1.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.134]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E22xP-0007SR-AA for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 04:26:04 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate1.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j787oIJP302674 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:50:27 GMT Received: from d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.228]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j787oI4b211756 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:50:18 +0100 Received: from d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j787oIhZ010155 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:50:18 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j787oIDL010150; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:50:18 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-220-200.de.ibm.com [9.146.220.200]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA54296; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:17 +0200 Message-ID: <42F70EB4.2060701@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:50:12 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Rosen Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Providing data on I-D progression References: <200508041227.IAA01245@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <200508041227.IAA01245@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Brian R, Automating this seems like a good idea, but authors can already tell the secretariat that draft-foo replaces draft-bar, and this is represented in the tracker today. Wouldn't a sequence of Replaces: tags be even better, because a human reader could interpret them too? My ambition is that the tracker should really be available to WG chairs as an active tool, which would mean quite a lot of extensions to support states and actions during WG processing. The "ID exists" state conceals a lot of substates. Brian C Brian Rosen wrote: > One of the things we keep harping on is how long it takes to get a draft > into an RFC. Of course that begs the question of how long does it really > take? We now have ways of measuring progress when a draft reaches the IESG, > but no way to track before then. One of the reasons is that drafts > frequently change names. > > I wonder if we could arrange to insert a token of some kind in drafts which > we allow authors to copy as we progress a draft. The basic idea is that a > real, no predecessor -00 draft gets a new token, and that token is repeated > in any subsequent drafts. If two drafts are split or merged, tokens follow. > A merge would result in a document having more than one token. > > We would need a function to generate a token, a way to put the token(s) in > the draft that a tool could find, and a tool to capture the path of the > token through the process. I would think that we could write a very simple > rule set for how you manipulated the tokens, and we advertise that because > each draft author gets to decide himself whether a new token is needed, or > an old token is copied, when an -00 draft is generated, that the statistics > we get are subject to varying interpretation of that guidance. > > I think a meaningless string is the best token. You could use a date and a > sequence number, but that might lead to someone altering the token. A > simple "tracker-token=" just after a CRLF would be enough. We could get > some xml2rfc help perhaps. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 08 10:25:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E28Yw-0002bZ-Ri; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:25:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E28Yr-0002YF-QT for tools-discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:25:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24367 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1.prod1.dngr.net ([216.220.209.220] helo=mfe2.prod.danger.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E296X-00013s-FV for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:59:56 -0400 Received: from [10.253.3.252] (HELO localhost.localdomain) by mfe2.prod.danger.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.6) with ESMTP id 356498023; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:24:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:24:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Providing data on I-D progression X-Mailer: Danger Service Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <42F70EB4.2060701@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" To: Brian E Carpenter Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <200508041227.IAA01245@ietf.org> <42F70EB4.2060701@zurich.ibm.com> From: Brian Rosen Message-Id: <1123511083.2EDB7C73@bd8.dngr.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org While I agree that there is value in a Replaces tag, I wonder if it suggests that the value is the immediately preceeding draft name, which might make it harder to create the data. It would need more complex instructions. Still, might be better than my token. Consider whether merge makes sense, for example. Having more state is a good thing. Having more data is even better. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss