From spencer@wonderhamster.org  Wed May  6 12:49:46 2009
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From: "Spencer Dawkins" <spencer@wonderhamster.org>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] XML2RFC validator not recognizing new IPR values
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Hi,

Not quite sure where this report should go, but I'm using

http://www.fenron.com/~fenner/ietf/xml2rfc-valid/valid.cgi

and I'm getting the following message for an ipr attribute value that I 
believe to be valid (at least XML2RFC thinks so)...

Thanks!

Spencer
Processing...

  1.. Validating document...
    a.. 12: element rfc: validity error : Value "trust200902" for attribute 
ipr of rfc is not among the enumerated set
  11: ]>
  12: 	<rfc category="bcp" updates="3777" ipr="trust200902" 
docName="draft-dawkins-nomcom-dont-wait-02">
  13:
2.. ...validation failed
  3.. Performing additional checks...
    a.. 12: error: 3978-style IPR is required beginning 6 May 2005 (you are 
using trust200902)
  11: ]>
  12: 	<rfc category="bcp" updates="3777" ipr="trust200902" 
docName="draft-dawkins-nomcom-dont-wait-02">
  13: 



From jefsey@gmail.com  Thu May  7 01:00:28 2009
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From: JFC Morfin <jefsey@jefsey.com>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Can someone help with a basic guidance?
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Here is what I use to do.

I wrote a C program which can take inputs from texts with a simple
format for inputs and write the XML format. This permits me to prepare
texts on simple editor, Open Office, wiki, HTML English/French texts
as well.

The program deals with the legal entries and paragraph management. It
is based on the template I found online of a Draft example. Further to
the last legal change, the I_D I prepare in running the online tool
are refused by the Secretariat automated tool.

1) where can I now find a sample I_D with the proper new XML format?
2) where can I process the resulting XML to get a legally acceptable I_D?

Thank you for the help.
jfc

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu May  7 07:10:39 2009
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Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can someone help with a basic guidance?
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JFC Morfin wrote:
> Here is what I use to do.
> 
> I wrote a C program which can take inputs from texts with a simple
> format for inputs and write the XML format. This permits me to prepare
> texts on simple editor, Open Office, wiki, HTML English/French texts
> as well.
> 
> The program deals with the legal entries and paragraph management. It
> is based on the template I found online of a Draft example. Further to
> the last legal change, the I_D I prepare in running the online tool
> are refused by the Secretariat automated tool.
> 
> 1) where can I now find a sample I_D with the proper new XML format?

Instructions are at <http://xml.resource.org/experimental.html>.

> 2) where can I process the resulting XML to get a legally acceptable I_D?

See above.

BR, Julian

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu May  7 15:54:49 2009
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Nits-checker does not work with Safari
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Greetings again. Using Safari Version 4 Public Beta (5528.16), <http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/> is broken. In specific, clicking on the "Choose File" button does not do anything. The site works fine with Firefox/Mac.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

From jari.arkko@piuha.net  Wed May 13 13:13:10 2009
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From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] PROTO submission tool
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Here's a very good tools idea suggestion from Brian Haberman. Any ideas 
on how to get this done?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: PROTO Process
Date: 	Wed, 13 May 2009 10:00:35 -0400
From: 	Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
To: 	Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
References: 
<20090512071213.513ED9A473A@odin.smetech.net><4A094C04.7070704@piuha.net> 
<00a901c9d2ff$368acf90$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> 
<EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0401693C2A@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com> 
<00b001c9d305$91dbfb20$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> 
<EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0401693C6F@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com> 
<00ba01c9d309$078a2470$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> 
<4A0AA228.7000809@piuha.net>



Jari,
     This may be only tangentially related, but this seemed like a good 
point to raise the idea.  Why are we still filling out the write-ups by 
hand and e-mailing them to the ADs?  Given that there have been changes 
to the write-up template, wouldn't it make sense to turn the WG-->IESG 
advancement step into an on-line form that would:

     - Allow a chair to advance the draft to the ADs
     - Send an e-mail to the sponsoring WG
     - Prompt the chair for the document shepherd
     - Allow the chair to fill in the proto write-up
     - Add the document shepherd to notifications via the draft alias

Regards,
Brian


Jari Arkko wrote:
> I wanted to provide some additional background on why we are asking 
> about the PROTO process.
> 
> The IESG met this week and talked about a number of things related to 
> our process. One of the things that we would like to improve upon is the 
> progress of drafts through the IESG process. There are several problems 
> in this, including:
> 
> - the fact that 82% of drafts have to be modified during AD review - 
> IESG review (and the rest probably have RFC Editor notes)
> - the process takes a relatively long time (avg 9 weeks for drafts that 
> stay unchanged and 31 weeks for drafts that change)
> - the timing is rather unpredictable, there is great variation among drafts
> - the visibility to what is happening and who has the token could be 
> improved
> - there is at least anecdotal evidence that for many drafts, there is a 
> long wait for new version or a response to review comments
> 
> Various statistics on these are available at 
> http://www.arkko.com/tools/admeasurements/stat/base.html (but do not 
> stare at the numbers too directly). The situation seems to have improved 
> with regards to various metrics in recent times, but the IESG discussed 
> a number of actions to make additional improvements. These include:
> 
> - Reminding ADs and shepherds to keep their working groups better 
> informed about the ongoing reviews, raised issues, and suggested changes 
> to their drafts.
> 
> - Starting a discussion in the wgchairs list about the roles of 
> shepherds and whether there is something to improve.
> 
> - Create a "stall" state in the tracker. This would be used for 
> documents where the wait for a response to an IESG or other review has 
> taken a long a time. The fact that the draft has entered this state 
> should also be communicated to the WG.
> 
> - Reminding everyone that if the holdup on a particular issue is due to 
> an unresponsive AD, you can contact Russ to send a reminder.
> 
> Then I wanted to say a few things about the shepherd process. Please 
> remember this works well in many cases, and we get great help from the 
> shepherds in resolving issues. Or the authors and ADs converge quickly 
> and things just move forward. However, there are cases where I would 
> expect more action from the shepherds. For instance, Pasi often reports 
> in his AD notes 
> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg02643.html) about 
> cases where he has raised a Discuss but has not heard from the authors. 
> The shepherds and WG chairs should be active in such cases, reminding 
> authors to move forward, finding new editors if needed, etc.
> 
> I'd also observe that generally speaking the chairs and shepherds and 
> more experienced in the IETF process and have worked with more 
> specifications than individual authors. This experience is very valuable 
> when talking about issues raised during the Last Call and IESG reviews. 
> It takes judgment and knowledge of the WG's area to determine whether a 
> particular issue is truly a problem. The ADs make these calls, but it 
> often comes down to a discussion between an individual AD having 
> specific expertise (such as transport or security) and the author; I 
> would like to see more shepherds participating in the discussions and 
> weighing in. Pushback on Discusses is appreciated!
> 
> About the writeups: the ADs do read these, and I at least find them 
> useful. I also often read writeups from other AD's documents in the IESG 
> review stage, if something about the status or history of the draft is 
> unclear. Of course, the writeups are truly useful only if the shepherd 
> really did do a final review of the document, checked the nits, and 
> provided more useful background information than simply copying the 
> abstract from the document :-) But in most cases that I'm aware of they 
> do contain useful information.
> 
> Jari






From lars.eggert@nokia.com  Wed May 13 13:21:36 2009
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Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] PROTO submission tool
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I'm pretty sure something like this was supposed to be part of the WG  
chair functionality that was to be added to the tracker, but I have  
not idea what the ETA on that is. (It is a good idea.)

Lars

On 2009-5-13, at 21:37, Jari Arkko wrote:
> Here's a very good tools idea suggestion from Brian Haberman. Any  
> ideas
> on how to get this done?
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	Re: PROTO Process
> Date: 	Wed, 13 May 2009 10:00:35 -0400
> From: 	Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
> To: 	Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
> References:
> <20090512071213.513ED9A473A@odin.smetech.net><4A094C04.7070704@piuha.net 
> >
> <00a901c9d2ff$368acf90$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
> < 
> EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0401693C2A@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com>
> <00b001c9d305$91dbfb20$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
> < 
> EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0401693C6F@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com>
> <00ba01c9d309$078a2470$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
> <4A0AA228.7000809@piuha.net>
>
>
>
> Jari,
>     This may be only tangentially related, but this seemed like a good
> point to raise the idea.  Why are we still filling out the write-ups  
> by
> hand and e-mailing them to the ADs?  Given that there have been  
> changes
> to the write-up template, wouldn't it make sense to turn the WG-->IESG
> advancement step into an on-line form that would:
>
>     - Allow a chair to advance the draft to the ADs
>     - Send an e-mail to the sponsoring WG
>     - Prompt the chair for the document shepherd
>     - Allow the chair to fill in the proto write-up
>     - Add the document shepherd to notifications via the draft alias
>
> Regards,
> Brian
>
>
> Jari Arkko wrote:
>> I wanted to provide some additional background on why we are asking
>> about the PROTO process.
>>
>> The IESG met this week and talked about a number of things related to
>> our process. One of the things that we would like to improve upon  
>> is the
>> progress of drafts through the IESG process. There are several  
>> problems
>> in this, including:
>>
>> - the fact that 82% of drafts have to be modified during AD review -
>> IESG review (and the rest probably have RFC Editor notes)
>> - the process takes a relatively long time (avg 9 weeks for drafts  
>> that
>> stay unchanged and 31 weeks for drafts that change)
>> - the timing is rather unpredictable, there is great variation  
>> among drafts
>> - the visibility to what is happening and who has the token could be
>> improved
>> - there is at least anecdotal evidence that for many drafts, there  
>> is a
>> long wait for new version or a response to review comments
>>
>> Various statistics on these are available at
>> http://www.arkko.com/tools/admeasurements/stat/base.html (but do not
>> stare at the numbers too directly). The situation seems to have  
>> improved
>> with regards to various metrics in recent times, but the IESG  
>> discussed
>> a number of actions to make additional improvements. These include:
>>
>> - Reminding ADs and shepherds to keep their working groups better
>> informed about the ongoing reviews, raised issues, and suggested  
>> changes
>> to their drafts.
>>
>> - Starting a discussion in the wgchairs list about the roles of
>> shepherds and whether there is something to improve.
>>
>> - Create a "stall" state in the tracker. This would be used for
>> documents where the wait for a response to an IESG or other review  
>> has
>> taken a long a time. The fact that the draft has entered this state
>> should also be communicated to the WG.
>>
>> - Reminding everyone that if the holdup on a particular issue is  
>> due to
>> an unresponsive AD, you can contact Russ to send a reminder.
>>
>> Then I wanted to say a few things about the shepherd process. Please
>> remember this works well in many cases, and we get great help from  
>> the
>> shepherds in resolving issues. Or the authors and ADs converge  
>> quickly
>> and things just move forward. However, there are cases where I would
>> expect more action from the shepherds. For instance, Pasi often  
>> reports
>> in his AD notes
>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg02643.html)  
>> about
>> cases where he has raised a Discuss but has not heard from the  
>> authors.
>> The shepherds and WG chairs should be active in such cases, reminding
>> authors to move forward, finding new editors if needed, etc.
>>
>> I'd also observe that generally speaking the chairs and shepherds and
>> more experienced in the IETF process and have worked with more
>> specifications than individual authors. This experience is very  
>> valuable
>> when talking about issues raised during the Last Call and IESG  
>> reviews.
>> It takes judgment and knowledge of the WG's area to determine  
>> whether a
>> particular issue is truly a problem. The ADs make these calls, but it
>> often comes down to a discussion between an individual AD having
>> specific expertise (such as transport or security) and the author; I
>> would like to see more shepherds participating in the discussions and
>> weighing in. Pushback on Discusses is appreciated!
>>
>> About the writeups: the ADs do read these, and I at least find them
>> useful. I also often read writeups from other AD's documents in the  
>> IESG
>> review stage, if something about the status or history of the draft  
>> is
>> unclear. Of course, the writeups are truly useful only if the  
>> shepherd
>> really did do a final review of the document, checked the nits, and
>> provided more useful background information than simply copying the
>> abstract from the document :-) But in most cases that I'm aware of  
>> they
>> do contain useful information.
>>
>> Jari
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu May 14 07:51:14 2009
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Greetings again. When I use the tools page to find an RFC, it tells me which I-D lead to the RFC; this is great. Could you add a link for a diff between the final draft and the RFC? I can do this by hand, of course, but have found myself doing it a bunch lately.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

From spencer@wonderhamster.org  Thu May 14 09:19:53 2009
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> Greetings again. When I use the tools page to find an RFC, it tells me 
> which I-D lead to the RFC; this is great. Could you add a link for a diff 
> between the final draft and the RFC? I can do this by hand, of course, but 
> have found myself doing it a bunch lately.

I'd like to echo this one as well.

Thanks,

Spencer 



From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu May 14 15:06:40 2009
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Paul, Spencer,

[Paul]
>> Greetings again. When I use the tools page to find an RFC, it tells me 
>> which I-D lead to the RFC; this is great. Could you add a link for a diff 
>> between the final draft and the RFC? I can do this by hand, of course, but 
>> have found myself doing it a bunch lately.

[Spencer]
> I'd like to echo this one as well.

This is in place now.  The RFCs numbered 5000 and higher have been re-generated,
the earlier ones will be regenerated gradually over time to also show the diff
links.

Example: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5432


Best,

	Henrik

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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] PROTO submission tool
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Hi Lars, Jari,

On 2009-05-13 22:23 Lars Eggert said the following:
> I'm pretty sure something like this was supposed to be part of the WG  =

> chair functionality that was to be added to the tracker, but I have =20
> not idea what the ETA on that is. (It is a good idea.)

Agreed, and I believe Lars is right about the WG chair functionality,
although being able to submit the writeup as a form wasn't mentioned:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-proto-wgchair-tracker-ext

During the SF IETF there was several people who indicated that having
the shepherd writeup as a form would be very good, and I was thinking
about doing it, but right now there's just too much other stuff.

After the IETF database conversion work there should be some more time.

	Henrik

> Lars
>=20
> On 2009-5-13, at 21:37, Jari Arkko wrote:
>> Here's a very good tools idea suggestion from Brian Haberman. Any =20
>> ideas
>> on how to get this done?
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: 	Re: PROTO Process
>> Date: 	Wed, 13 May 2009 10:00:35 -0400
>> From: 	Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
>> To: 	Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
>> References:
>> <20090512071213.513ED9A473A@odin.smetech.net><4A094C04.7070704@piuha.n=
et=20
>> <00a901c9d2ff$368acf90$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
>> <=20
>> EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0401693C2A@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com>=

>> <00b001c9d305$91dbfb20$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
>> <=20
>> EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0401693C6F@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com>=

>> <00ba01c9d309$078a2470$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
>> <4A0AA228.7000809@piuha.net>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jari,
>>     This may be only tangentially related, but this seemed like a good=

>> point to raise the idea.  Why are we still filling out the write-ups  =

>> by
>> hand and e-mailing them to the ADs?  Given that there have been =20
>> changes
>> to the write-up template, wouldn't it make sense to turn the WG-->IESG=

>> advancement step into an on-line form that would:
>>
>>     - Allow a chair to advance the draft to the ADs
>>     - Send an e-mail to the sponsoring WG
>>     - Prompt the chair for the document shepherd
>>     - Allow the chair to fill in the proto write-up
>>     - Add the document shepherd to notifications via the draft alias
>>
>> Regards,
>> Brian
>>
>>
>> Jari Arkko wrote:
>>> I wanted to provide some additional background on why we are asking
>>> about the PROTO process.
>>>
>>> The IESG met this week and talked about a number of things related to=

>>> our process. One of the things that we would like to improve upon =20
>>> is the
>>> progress of drafts through the IESG process. There are several =20
>>> problems
>>> in this, including:
>>>
>>> - the fact that 82% of drafts have to be modified during AD review -
>>> IESG review (and the rest probably have RFC Editor notes)
>>> - the process takes a relatively long time (avg 9 weeks for drafts =20
>>> that
>>> stay unchanged and 31 weeks for drafts that change)
>>> - the timing is rather unpredictable, there is great variation =20
>>> among drafts
>>> - the visibility to what is happening and who has the token could be
>>> improved
>>> - there is at least anecdotal evidence that for many drafts, there =20
>>> is a
>>> long wait for new version or a response to review comments
>>>
>>> Various statistics on these are available at
>>> http://www.arkko.com/tools/admeasurements/stat/base.html (but do not
>>> stare at the numbers too directly). The situation seems to have =20
>>> improved
>>> with regards to various metrics in recent times, but the IESG =20
>>> discussed
>>> a number of actions to make additional improvements. These include:
>>>
>>> - Reminding ADs and shepherds to keep their working groups better
>>> informed about the ongoing reviews, raised issues, and suggested =20
>>> changes
>>> to their drafts.
>>>
>>> - Starting a discussion in the wgchairs list about the roles of
>>> shepherds and whether there is something to improve.
>>>
>>> - Create a "stall" state in the tracker. This would be used for
>>> documents where the wait for a response to an IESG or other review =20
>>> has
>>> taken a long a time. The fact that the draft has entered this state
>>> should also be communicated to the WG.
>>>
>>> - Reminding everyone that if the holdup on a particular issue is =20
>>> due to
>>> an unresponsive AD, you can contact Russ to send a reminder.
>>>
>>> Then I wanted to say a few things about the shepherd process. Please
>>> remember this works well in many cases, and we get great help from =20
>>> the
>>> shepherds in resolving issues. Or the authors and ADs converge =20
>>> quickly
>>> and things just move forward. However, there are cases where I would
>>> expect more action from the shepherds. For instance, Pasi often =20
>>> reports
>>> in his AD notes
>>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg02643.html) =20
>>> about
>>> cases where he has raised a Discuss but has not heard from the =20
>>> authors.
>>> The shepherds and WG chairs should be active in such cases, reminding=

>>> authors to move forward, finding new editors if needed, etc.
>>>
>>> I'd also observe that generally speaking the chairs and shepherds and=

>>> more experienced in the IETF process and have worked with more
>>> specifications than individual authors. This experience is very =20
>>> valuable
>>> when talking about issues raised during the Last Call and IESG =20
>>> reviews.
>>> It takes judgment and knowledge of the WG's area to determine =20
>>> whether a
>>> particular issue is truly a problem. The ADs make these calls, but it=

>>> often comes down to a discussion between an individual AD having
>>> specific expertise (such as transport or security) and the author; I
>>> would like to see more shepherds participating in the discussions and=

>>> weighing in. Pushback on Discusses is appreciated!
>>>
>>> About the writeups: the ADs do read these, and I at least find them
>>> useful. I also often read writeups from other AD's documents in the  =

>>> IESG
>>> review stage, if something about the status or history of the draft  =

>>> is
>>> unclear. Of course, the writeups are truly useful only if the =20
>>> shepherd
>>> really did do a final review of the document, checked the nits, and
>>> provided more useful background information than simply copying the
>>> abstract from the document :-) But in most cases that I'm aware of =20
>>> they
>>> do contain useful information.
>>>
>>> Jari
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20


From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu May 14 16:01:30 2009
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Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:02:58 -0700
To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
From: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Request for one more diff
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At 12:07 AM +0200 5/15/09, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>This is in place now.  The RFCs numbered 5000 and higher have been re-generated,
>the earlier ones will be regenerated gradually over time to also show the diff
>links.

Many thanks!

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Thu May 14 16:32:07 2009
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Tools wiki reachability over IPv6...
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I've been having an ongoing problem with the tools wiki ever since I  
started using it - for some reason it's not reachable over the IPv6  
transport, only over IPv4.   This would be okay, since I do have  
access to an IPv4 network (grin), but unfortunately it means that  
every time I click on a link that goes to the wiki, I have to wait for  
the connection to the IPv6 address to time out.

So I'm requesting that until such time as wiki.tools.ietf.org has a  
reliable IPv6 connection, the AAAA record for it be removed.   Well,  
actually, wiki.tools.ietf.org is a CNAME for zinfandel.tools.ietf.org,  
so I'm really requesting that the AAAA record for  
zinfandel.tools.ietf.org be removed.

Sorry to be a pain - I think that having IPv6 access for the tools  
site is important, and hope it happens soon, but since it's not  
present now, it shouldn't be being advertised.

Thanks!


From jeroen@unfix.org  Fri May 15 00:57:26 2009
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Ted Lemon wrote:
[..]
> So I'm requesting that until such time as wiki.tools.ietf.org has a
> reliable IPv6 connection, the AAAA record for it be removed.   Well,
> actually, wiki.tools.ietf.org is a CNAME for zinfandel.tools.ietf.org,
> so I'm really requesting that the AAAA record for
> zinfandel.tools.ietf.org be removed.

I agree. For me it generally works, but it generally is way too flaky.
=46rom here at the HPI in Potsdam at the 2nd German IPv6 Summit the IETF
can't be reached over IPv6. IPv4 fortunately works after some time.

This is most very likely a problem at AT&T's network which simply is not
ready enough yet for deployment (even though they make papers about it,
which actually show this clearly as they state they only have 11 peers)

If you have a problem with that tools server though, you most likely
also have a problem with other services hosted there, including:

{www|mail}.ietf.org and others @ 2001:1890:1112:1::20

Traceroutes (from noc.sixxs.net):

traceroute to zinfandel.tools.ietf.org
(2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54) from
2001:838:1:1:210:dcff:fe20:7c7c, 30 hops max, 16 byte packets
[..]
 9  ibr01-ve26.lndn01.occaid.net (2001:7f8:4::7577:1)  36.783 ms  36.933
ms  36.922 ms
10  bbr01-p1-0.nwrk01.occaid.net (2001:4830:fe:1010::2)  108.399 ms
107.434 ms  106.772 ms
11  r1.mdtnj.ipv6.att.net (2001:4830:e2:2a::2)  184.822 ms  183.671 ms
179.32 ms
12  2001:1890:61:9017::2 (2001:1890:61:9017::2)  256.564 ms  256.71 ms
257.363 ms
13  2001:1890:61:9017::2 (2001:1890:61:9017::2)  3257.22 ms !H  3255.15
ms !H  3281.79 ms !H

HUGE latency at the last hop, but that could be due to a timeout on the
router, but then a !H, thus clearly nothing home there.

for www.ietf.org:
[..]
 9  ibr01-ve26.lndn01.occaid.net (2001:7f8:4::7577:1)  37.165 ms  37.306
ms  46.407 ms
10  bbr01-p1-0.nwrk01.occaid.net (2001:4830:fe:1010::2)  120.865 ms
106.906 ms  107.255 ms
11  r1.mdtnj.ipv6.att.net (2001:4830:e2:2a::2)  182.676 ms  184.744 ms
179.842 ms
12  2001:1890:61:9017::2 (2001:1890:61:9017::2)  256.307 ms  269.928 ms
 257.271 ms
13  2001:1890:1112:1::20 (2001:1890:1112:1::20)  258.437 ms  280.844 ms
 257.209 ms

I also have a concern there, nearly 300ms to a site in the US, while the
 hop transatlantic is only 120ms out of this. As a comparison:

A traceroute to www.kame.net (from .nl to .jp) goes over NTT and only doe=
s:

14  ve45.foundry2.yagami.wide.ad.jp (2001:200:0:12::74)  274.978 ms
275.036 ms  274.829 ms
15  2001:200:0:8400::10:1 (2001:200:0:8400::10:1)  279.977 ms  279.551
ms  279.833 ms
16  orange.kame.net (2001:200:0:8002:203:47ff:fea5:3085)  279.139 ms
279.039 ms  279.362 ms

Which is almost the same latency, and REALLY on the other side of the
world (the route is amstnl02,asbnva01,snjsca04,osakjp01,tokyjp01 btw)

One also notices that the route goes over OCCAID who are actually
transporting the bits from London to the US. AT&T is claiming to be a
Tier1 IPv6 Transit provider, but really, using an non-profit
organization to transport your bits definitely disqualifies one from any
claim at being a Transit provider and far from the claim of being Tier1.

I really really really hope that AT&T finally deploys a global network
and start shifting bits through their own links.

Next to that, they should also finally fix their firewalls to not drop
ICMPv6, which is another cause of problems when one is not on a
1500-byte link.

Greets,
 Jeroen

  (and no, I am not just trying to be nasty to AT&T, but hey come on,
fix that network already, there are big eyeballs looking at the sites
being hosted and this is simply broken, that means that there are no
happy eyeballs and even worse: IETF is not properly eating their own
dogfood this way.... please fix!!!!)



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From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Fri May 15 01:12:45 2009
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Tools wiki reachability over IPv6...
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On May 15, 2009, at 12:58 AM, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> If you have a problem with that tools server though, you most likely
> also have a problem with other services hosted there, including:
>
> {www|mail}.ietf.org and others @ 2001:1890:1112:1::20

No, the problem is specifically with the wiki.   I haven't been having  
trouble with other ietf sites - e.g., the main tools page comes up  
just fine, and so does the main IETF site and the RFC editor site.   I  
very consistently can't get through to the wiki - I've never  
(knowingly) gotten through to it on ipv6.

> I also have a concern there, nearly 300ms to a site in the US, while  
> the
> hop transatlantic is only 120ms out of this. As a comparison:

I think we should all count our blessings that in this modern day a  
300ms rtt seems long.   This sort of thing isn't an operational  
problem, in any case - it's unreachability that's eating my lunch at  
the moment, not latency.



From henrik@levkowetz.com  Fri May 15 05:38:37 2009
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Tools wiki reachability over IPv6...
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Hi Ted,

Sorry about this.  I've now (in this order):

  - taken out the IPv6 address for zinfandel from the zone file
  - gotten zinfandel to reply to its IPv6 address again
    (although I still don't know why it stopped responding)
  - tested IPv6 reachability
  - added zinfandel's IPv6 address to the zone file again.
  - tested web access over IPv6 to zinfandel.

I hope the service will be less painful now; please let me know
if this is not the case, or if things stop working again in the
future.


Best,

	Henrik

On 2009-05-15 01:33 Ted Lemon said the following:
> I've been having an ongoing problem with the tools wiki ever since I  
> started using it - for some reason it's not reachable over the IPv6  
> transport, only over IPv4.   This would be okay, since I do have  
> access to an IPv4 network (grin), but unfortunately it means that  
> every time I click on a link that goes to the wiki, I have to wait for  
> the connection to the IPv6 address to time out.
> 
> So I'm requesting that until such time as wiki.tools.ietf.org has a  
> reliable IPv6 connection, the AAAA record for it be removed.   Well,  
> actually, wiki.tools.ietf.org is a CNAME for zinfandel.tools.ietf.org,  
> so I'm really requesting that the AAAA record for  
> zinfandel.tools.ietf.org be removed.
> 
> Sorry to be a pain - I think that having IPv6 access for the tools  
> site is important, and hope it happens soon, but since it's not  
> present now, it shouldn't be being advertised.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

From versteb@cisco.com  Fri May 15 06:10:37 2009
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Thread-Topic: spaces in draft authors names
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] spaces in draft authors names
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I submitted a draft last week, and noticed that the submission tool
mangled two of the author's names drafts database. The names in the
draft itself are OK, but the database entries are truncated. The name
"Bill Ver Steeg"  became "Bill Steeg" and the name "Tom Van Caenegem"
became "Tom Caenegem". I cancelled that submission and tried a few more
times, using "Bill VerSteeg" and even "Bill Versteeg", but the tool came
back with "Bill Steeg" every time.  I even tried correcting the names by
hand in the submission forms, but still  no glory.
=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rapid-acquisition-for
-rtp/
=20
=20
I understand how "Ver Steeg" could become "Steeg", so I often do not use
the space. Is this data keyed off something other than the submitted
draft? Anybody seen this? Any work-arounds?=20
=20
I apologize if this note comes to the tools-discuss list twice, as I did
not join the list before sending it the first time.
=20
=20
Bill VerSteeg

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16809" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
submitted a=20
draft&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D030325612-15052009>last week</SPAN>, and =
noticed that the=20
submission tool mangled two of the author's names<SPAN =
class=3D030325612-15052009>=20
drafts database</SPAN>.<SPAN class=3D030325612-15052009> The names in =
the draft=20
itself are OK, but the database&nbsp;entries are =
truncated.</SPAN>&nbsp;The name=20
"Bill Ver Steeg"&nbsp; became "Bill Steeg" and the name "Tom Van =
Caenegem"=20
became "Tom Caenegem". I cancelled that submission and tried a few more =
times,=20
using "Bill VerSteeg" and even "Bill Versteeg", but the tool came back =
with=20
"Bill Steeg" every time.&nbsp; I even tried correcting the names<SPAN=20
class=3D030325612-15052009> by hand</SPAN>&nbsp;in the submission forms, =
but=20
still&nbsp; no glory.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
title=3Dhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rapid-acquisit=
ion-for-rtp/=20
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rapid-acquisit=
ion-for-rtp/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rapid-ac=
quisition-for-rtp/</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
understand how=20
"Ver Steeg" could become "Steeg", so I often do not use the space. Is =
this data=20
keyed off something other than the submitted draft? Anybody seen this? =
Any=20
work-arounds? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><SPAN =
class=3D030325612-15052009><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>I apologize if this note comes to the =
tools-discuss list=20
twice, as I did not join the list before sending it the first=20
time.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill =
VerSteeg</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From jelte@NLnetLabs.nl  Mon May 18 03:06:16 2009
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] missing data and/or rfcmarkup script problem?
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hi,

something seems to be a bit off:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5011

/www/tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup in markup()
<type 'exceptions.TypeError'>: 'NoneType' object is unsubscriptable
       args = ("'NoneType' object is unsubscriptable",)
       message = "'NoneType' object is unsubscriptable"

other rfcs seem to work fine

Jelte

ps. i see recurring v6 problems as well (and right now), usually my traces stop 
somewhere near occaid.net (like now).

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Mon May 18 06:48:26 2009
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing data and/or rfcmarkup script problem?
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Hi Jelte,

On 2009-05-18 12:06 Jelte Jansen said the following:
> hi,
> 
> something seems to be a bit off:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5011
> 
> /www/tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup in markup()
> <type 'exceptions.TypeError'>: 'NoneType' object is unsubscriptable
>        args = ("'NoneType' object is unsubscriptable",)
>        message = "'NoneType' object is unsubscriptable"
> 
> other rfcs seem to work fine

This one had IPR notices associated with the RFC, and that code seems like
it has only been excercised with drafts.  Fixed now.

> Jelte
> 
> ps. i see recurring v6 problems as well (and right now), usually my traces stop 
> somewhere near occaid.net (like now).

tools.ietf.org currently has two AAAA records; which one is causing trouble?


Best,

	Henrik

From jelte@NLnetLabs.nl  Mon May 18 06:59:44 2009
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing data and/or rfcmarkup script problem?
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Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> Hi Jelte,
> 
> On 2009-05-18 12:06 Jelte Jansen said the following:
>> hi,
>>
>> something seems to be a bit off:
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5011
> 
> This one had IPR notices associated with the RFC, and that code seems like
> it has only been excercised with drafts.  Fixed now.
> 

Great! (the fix, not the ipr notice)

thank you

>>
>> ps. i see recurring v6 problems as well (and right now), usually my traces stop 
>> somewhere near occaid.net (like now).
> 
> tools.ietf.org currently has two AAAA records; which one is causing trouble?
> 
> 

2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54

the other one appears to work fine (at least for traceroute)

here's a paste of the failing one:

jelte@eeetjeb:~> traceroute 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
traceroute to 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54 
(2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54), 30 hops max, 80 byte packets
  1  sixgate.nlnetlabs.nl (2001:7b8:206:1:250:bfff:fe5e:33e0)  1.462 ms  2.604 
ms  2.626 ms
  2  i204.jun1.sara.ipv6.network.bit.nl (2001:7b8:40:1::1)  7.871 ms  14.784 ms 
  33.159 ms
  3  ibr02-ve26.lndn01.occaid.net (2001:7f8:4:1::7577:2)  43.839 ms  44.354 ms 
47.642 ms
  4  bbr01-p1-0.nwrk01.occaid.net (2001:4830:fe:1010::2)  116.916 ms  118.370 ms 
  118.394 ms
  5  * * *
  6  * * *
(etc.)

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Mon May 18 08:00:05 2009
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Glen <glen@amsl.com>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing data and/or rfcmarkup script problem?
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Hi Jelte,

(Adding Glen as Cc: in case this is something he can influence, which I'm
not so sure about...)

More below:

On 2009-05-18 15:59 Jelte Jansen said the following:
...
>>> ps. i see recurring v6 problems as well (and right now), usually my traces stop 
>>> somewhere near occaid.net (like now).
>> tools.ietf.org currently has two AAAA records; which one is causing trouble?
>>
>>
> 
> 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
> 
> the other one appears to work fine (at least for traceroute)
> 
> here's a paste of the failing one:
> 
> jelte@eeetjeb:~> traceroute 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
> traceroute to 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54 
> (2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54), 30 hops max, 80 byte packets
>   1  sixgate.nlnetlabs.nl (2001:7b8:206:1:250:bfff:fe5e:33e0)  1.462 ms  2.604 
> ms  2.626 ms
>   2  i204.jun1.sara.ipv6.network.bit.nl (2001:7b8:40:1::1)  7.871 ms  14.784 ms 
>   33.159 ms
>   3  ibr02-ve26.lndn01.occaid.net (2001:7f8:4:1::7577:2)  43.839 ms  44.354 ms 
> 47.642 ms
>   4  bbr01-p1-0.nwrk01.occaid.net (2001:4830:fe:1010::2)  116.916 ms  118.370 ms 
>   118.394 ms
>   5  * * *
>   6  * * *

Hmm.  Seems to be some trouble on your route, which isn't visible in my
traceroute, then -- from here it looks fine (at the moment, at least):

16:55 ~
henrik@brunello $ traceroute6 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
traceroute6 to 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54 (2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54) from 2a01:3f0:1::21e:c2ff:fe13:7e3e, 30 hops max, 12 byte packets
 1  ge-8-2.au-gw.autonomica.se  17.338 ms  12.397 ms  0.216 ms
 2  ge-8-20.bellman-gw.sth.netnod.se  0.315 ms  0.218 ms  0.248 ms
 3  10ge-2-2.inner-b-gw.sth.netnod.se  0.452 ms  0.391 ms  0.385 ms
 4  10ge-2-1.outer-b-gw.sth.netnod.se  0.472 ms  0.413 ms  10.541 ms
 5  mtu4470.ge-b.netnod.nordu.net  0.639 ms  0.624 ms  0.582 ms
 6  2001:7f8:d:fb::139  20.013 ms  19.421 ms  19.421 ms
 7  2001:440:1239:1018::2  89.259 ms  89.138 ms  91.17 ms
 8  2001:1890:61:8908::1  108.756 ms  104.291 ms  103.227 ms
 9  2001:1890:61:9117::2  228.531 ms  211.594 ms  195.202 ms
10  2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54  205.407 ms  186.966 ms  181.581 ms

I'm afraid I don't know who and how to ping to get this sorted.


Best,

	Henrik

From glen@amsl.com  Mon May 18 08:46:28 2009
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Jelte Jansen <jelte@NLnetLabs.nl>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing data and/or rfcmarkup script problem?
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We're showing a valid route from here to there.  BUT this is the second
complaint I've gotten in 24 hours about the route from there to here.
OCCAID is definitely having trouble.

Jelte - please file a trouble report with your ISP.  We will add this
information to the open report with OUR ISP.  Filing from both sides is
imperative to getting IPV6 problems resolved.

Thanks,
Glen

Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> Hi Jelte,
> 
> (Adding Glen as Cc: in case this is something he can influence, which I'm
> not so sure about...)
> 
> More below:
> 
> On 2009-05-18 15:59 Jelte Jansen said the following:
> ...
>>>> ps. i see recurring v6 problems as well (and right now), usually my traces stop 
>>>> somewhere near occaid.net (like now).
>>> tools.ietf.org currently has two AAAA records; which one is causing trouble?
>>>
>>>
>> 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
>>
>> the other one appears to work fine (at least for traceroute)
>>
>> here's a paste of the failing one:
>>
>> jelte@eeetjeb:~> traceroute 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
>> traceroute to 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54 
>> (2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54), 30 hops max, 80 byte packets
>>   1  sixgate.nlnetlabs.nl (2001:7b8:206:1:250:bfff:fe5e:33e0)  1.462 ms  2.604 
>> ms  2.626 ms
>>   2  i204.jun1.sara.ipv6.network.bit.nl (2001:7b8:40:1::1)  7.871 ms  14.784 ms 
>>   33.159 ms
>>   3  ibr02-ve26.lndn01.occaid.net (2001:7f8:4:1::7577:2)  43.839 ms  44.354 ms 
>> 47.642 ms
>>   4  bbr01-p1-0.nwrk01.occaid.net (2001:4830:fe:1010::2)  116.916 ms  118.370 ms 
>>   118.394 ms
>>   5  * * *
>>   6  * * *
> 
> Hmm.  Seems to be some trouble on your route, which isn't visible in my
> traceroute, then -- from here it looks fine (at the moment, at least):
> 
> 16:55 ~
> henrik@brunello $ traceroute6 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54
> traceroute6 to 2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54 (2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54) from 2a01:3f0:1::21e:c2ff:fe13:7e3e, 30 hops max, 12 byte packets
>  1  ge-8-2.au-gw.autonomica.se  17.338 ms  12.397 ms  0.216 ms
>  2  ge-8-20.bellman-gw.sth.netnod.se  0.315 ms  0.218 ms  0.248 ms
>  3  10ge-2-2.inner-b-gw.sth.netnod.se  0.452 ms  0.391 ms  0.385 ms
>  4  10ge-2-1.outer-b-gw.sth.netnod.se  0.472 ms  0.413 ms  10.541 ms
>  5  mtu4470.ge-b.netnod.nordu.net  0.639 ms  0.624 ms  0.582 ms
>  6  2001:7f8:d:fb::139  20.013 ms  19.421 ms  19.421 ms
>  7  2001:440:1239:1018::2  89.259 ms  89.138 ms  91.17 ms
>  8  2001:1890:61:8908::1  108.756 ms  104.291 ms  103.227 ms
>  9  2001:1890:61:9117::2  228.531 ms  211.594 ms  195.202 ms
> 10  2001:1890:1112:1:214:22ff:fe1f:1e54  205.407 ms  186.966 ms  181.581 ms
> 
> I'm afraid I don't know who and how to ping to get this sorted.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 	Henrik
> 

From versteb@cisco.com  Tue May 12 10:27:54 2009
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Thread-Topic: spaces/caps  in draft authors' names
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From: "Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)" <versteb@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] spaces/caps  in draft authors' names
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I submitted a draft today, and noticed that the submission tool mangled
two of the author's names. The name "Bill Ver Steeg"  became "Bill
Steeg" and the name "Tom Van Caenegem" became "Tom Caenegem". I
cancelled that submission and tried a few more times, using "Bill
VerSteeg" and even "Bill Versteeg", but the tool came back with "Bill
Steeg" every time.  I even tried correcting the names in the submission
forms, but still  no glory.
=20
I understand how "Ver Steeg" could become "Steeg", so I often do not use
the space.. Is this data keyed off something other than the submitted
draft? Anybody seen this? Any work-arounds?=20
=20
=20
Bill VerSteeg

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
submitted a draft=20
today, and noticed that the submission tool mangled two of the author's =
names.=20
The name "Bill Ver Steeg"&nbsp; became "Bill Steeg" and the name "Tom =
Van=20
Caenegem" became "Tom Caenegem". I cancelled that submission and tried a =
few=20
more times, using "Bill VerSteeg" and even "Bill Versteeg", but the tool =
came=20
back with "Bill Steeg" every time.&nbsp; I even tried correcting the =
names in=20
the submission forms, but still&nbsp; no glory.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
understand how=20
"Ver Steeg" could become "Steeg", so I often do not use the space.. Is =
this data=20
keyed off something other than the submitted draft? Anybody seen this? =
Any=20
work-arounds? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D499585616-12052009></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D499585616-12052009><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill VerSteeg</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From lars.eggert@nokia.com  Fri May 22 06:49:05 2009
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From: Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] meeting materials manager
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Hi,

the "View Meeting Materials Page" link at the bottom of https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi 
  used to go to a page where one could see which WGs had requested  
slots for the upcoming IETF, but no longer does. This was very useful  
and I'd like it back.

(I'm not sure if this is a tools team or secretariat change.)

Lars
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From henrik@levkowetz.com  Fri May 22 11:49:48 2009
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Cc: IETF TOOLS discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>, Glen <glen@amsl.com>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meeting materials manager
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Hi Lars,

On 2009-05-22 15:50 Lars Eggert said the following:
> Hi,
> 
> the "View Meeting Materials Page" link at the bottom of https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi 
>   used to go to a page where one could see which WGs had requested  
> slots for the upcoming IETF, but no longer does. This was very useful  
> and I'd like it back.
> 
> (I'm not sure if this is a tools team or secretariat change.)

Since the URL goes to a cgi-bin script, it's unlikely to be a tools-team change.
I'm Cc:ing Glen.


Best,

	Henrik

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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Thank you guys...
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I'm not sure when the automatic submission tool started adding lines like

Diff from previous version:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-dawkins-nomcom-dont-wait-03

at the bottom of the e-mail it sends out, but that's much-appreciated (and I 
didn't know that rfcdiff guessed url1 if you didn't specify one - neat!)...

Thank you guys for all you do, of course.

Spencer