-formatted element;
apparently one line per paragraph.  The line ends for a reasonable
width, say, 78 char.s or 70em, went AWOL.  How about putting the
draft input into a  with a mono-spaced font for the 
,
and "translate" one or more adjacent empty lines into 
?

This would destroy SP SP after dots and colons, and introduce
bogus line break opportunities for all hyphens; and if that is a
problem SP SP could be replaced by SP   and hyphens could
be translated into "&nbhy;" code points.  But it would eliminate
the odd "very long line" horizontal scroll effect.

For a real WySiWyG experience maybe "reject" input with lines
longer than 78 char.s, or put the 
 in a  with width
95% and some overflow-style.  Or fix the input form if it "eats"
submitted line ends:  It is possible to get this right, compare
Wikipedia.  But this might be hard, e.g., for GMail I need some
"user script" kludge to get a barely working WySiWyG effect for
mono-spaced text/plain no-nonsense input with line breaks where
I want them (and nowhere else.)

-Frank

From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Sun Oct 23 17:25:03 2011
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Keep 'From' mail addresses from tracker constant (was: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into Section 3.6 of 3987bis)
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Dear IETF tools experts,

The IRI WG is using the tracker, and is forwarding mails from the 
tracker to the WG list, public-iri@w3.org. This forwarding stopped to 
work some time ago. The W3C has now added the address again. The problem 
seems to be that the address changed, from something like
trac+iri@tools.ietf.org to trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org.

Could you please make sure you don't change this address, either by move 
back to the more generic address, or by making sure you keep (or fake) 
the same local host name for the future?

Thanks and regards,    Martin.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be 
moved into Section  3.6 of 3987bis
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:34:36 -0700
From: Gerald Oskoboiny 
To: "Martin J. Dürst" 
CC: ...

Hi Martin,

* "Martin J. Dürst"  [2011-10-22 05:24+0900]
> Hello Systems team, hello Richard,
>
> The IETF IRI WG, for which the W3C hosts the mailing list
> (public-iri@w3.org), is working with the IETF Tools tracker. The
> tracker sends out messages to the mailing list, but they don't get
> through. Can you please add the originator of the tracker mails
> (trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org) to the list of 'people' who are
> allowed to send addresses to public-iri@w3.org.

Yes, done.

The @gamay address will likely change if the IETF's trac service
moves to a different machine, so it seems like it would be better
for it to send mail from trac+iri@trac.tools.ietf.org; not sure
if you or anyone Cc'd has any influence over that. I added that
address to the list of authorized posters as well.

> If there are messages in the moderator queue from the tracker,
> please just discard these, because we have forwarded them manually.
> If you want me to help moderating the list, please add me as a
> moderator, and give me a pointer to the tools (I forgot where they
> are, sorry).

Thanks for the offer, I will leave that up to the maintainer,
Philippe (added to Cc)

>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into
> Section 3.6 of 3987bis
> Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:26:46 +0900
> Resent-From: trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org
> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:26:43 -0000
> From: iri issue tracker 
> To: draft-ietf-iri-3987bis@tools.ietf.org, masinter@adobe.com
> CC: public-iri@w3.org
:

-- 
Gerald Oskoboiny 
http://www.w3.org/People/Gerald/
tel:+1-604-906-1232 (mobile)

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Mon Oct 24 06:55:19 2011
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Cc: public-iri@w3.org, Leif Halvard Silli , tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] nit comment
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Hi Martin, Leif,

Thanks for reporting this.  This is fixed in v1.98 of rfcmarkup, and
the html version of the draft should be corrected shortly.

Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2011-06-01 08:09 "Martin J. D�rst" said:
> Hello Leif,
> 
> There is indeed a missing link to Section 4.1 in the text version. In 
> the XML source, these links are there (and the text "Section 4.1" is 
> autogenerated.
> 
> What you see is an artefact of how tool.ietf.org reconstructs links from 
> the plain text version (). I have cc'ed tools-discuss@ietf.org in the 
> hope somebody can look at this issue.
> 
> Regards,   Martin.
> 
> On 2011/06/01 8:45, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
>> Sorry if this has been adrressed or there is a reason for it, but in
>> Section 3.7
>>
>>   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis-05#section-3.7
>>
>> then, on the words "Section 4.1", ther should be a link to section 4.1.
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Mon Oct 24 07:08:55 2011
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Cc: Gerald Oskoboiny , tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Keep 'From' mail addresses from tracker constant (was: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into Section 3.6 of 3987bis)
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Hi Martin,

On 2011-10-23 06:22 "Martin J. D�rst" said:
> Dear IETF tools experts,
> 
> The IRI WG is using the tracker, and is forwarding mails from the 
> tracker to the WG list, public-iri@w3.org. This forwarding stopped to 
> work some time ago. The W3C has now added the address again. The problem 
> seems to be that the address changed, from something like
> trac+iri@tools.ietf.org to trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org.

Oops.  The earlier address is the correct one.

> Could you please make sure you don't change this address, either by move 
> back to the more generic address, or by making sure you keep (or fake) 
> the same local host name for the future?

I'll have a look at why this changed, and try to make it so it keeps the
generic address for the future.

(Problem reports about the tools.ietf.org website will reach me in more
timely manner if sent directly to webmaster@tools.ietf.org.)

Best regards,

	Henrik

> Thanks and regards,    Martin.
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be 
> moved into Section  3.6 of 3987bis
> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:34:36 -0700
> From: Gerald Oskoboiny 
> To: "Martin J. D�rst" 
> CC: ...
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> * "Martin J. D�rst"  [2011-10-22 05:24+0900]
>> Hello Systems team, hello Richard,
>>
>> The IETF IRI WG, for which the W3C hosts the mailing list
>> (public-iri@w3.org), is working with the IETF Tools tracker. The
>> tracker sends out messages to the mailing list, but they don't get
>> through. Can you please add the originator of the tracker mails
>> (trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org) to the list of 'people' who are
>> allowed to send addresses to public-iri@w3.org.
> 
> Yes, done.
> 
> The @gamay address will likely change if the IETF's trac service
> moves to a different machine, so it seems like it would be better
> for it to send mail from trac+iri@trac.tools.ietf.org; not sure
> if you or anyone Cc'd has any influence over that. I added that
> address to the list of authorized posters as well.
> 
>> If there are messages in the moderator queue from the tracker,
>> please just discard these, because we have forwarded them manually.
>> If you want me to help moderating the list, please add me as a
>> moderator, and give me a pointer to the tools (I forgot where they
>> are, sorry).
> 
> Thanks for the offer, I will leave that up to the maintainer,
> Philippe (added to Cc)
> 
> 
>>
>> Regards,    Martin.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into
>> Section 3.6 of 3987bis
>> Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:26:46 +0900
>> Resent-From: trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org
>> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:26:43 -0000
>> From: iri issue tracker 
>> To: draft-ietf-iri-3987bis@tools.ietf.org, masinter@adobe.com
>> CC: public-iri@w3.org
> :
> 

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Mon Oct 24 07:28:46 2011
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Gerald Oskoboiny 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Keep 'From' mail addresses from tracker constant (was: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into Section 3.6 of 3987bis)
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Hi again,

On 2011-10-24 16:08 Henrik Levkowetz said:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> On 2011-10-23 06:22 "Martin J. D�rst" said:
>> Dear IETF tools experts,
>>
>> The IRI WG is using the tracker, and is forwarding mails from the 
>> tracker to the WG list, public-iri@w3.org. This forwarding stopped to 
>> work some time ago. The W3C has now added the address again. The problem 
>> seems to be that the address changed, from something like
>> trac+iri@tools.ietf.org to trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Oops.  The earlier address is the correct one.

My mistake.  The correct address is 'trac.tools.ietf.org', which is a
cname pointing to the particular tools server which hosts the issue
trackers.  This is consistent for all issue trackers since September 16th
this year.  There may have been some hiccups in connection with a change
of host when the old machine didn't come up after a power-up at the
beginning of September, but all config files have now been edited to
consistently use 'trac.tools.ietf.org' as sender address.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Regards,

	Henrik

>> Could you please make sure you don't change this address, either by move 
>> back to the more generic address, or by making sure you keep (or fake) 
>> the same local host name for the future?
> 
> I'll have a look at why this changed, and try to make it so it keeps the
> generic address for the future.
> 
> (Problem reports about the tools.ietf.org website will reach me in more
> timely manner if sent directly to webmaster@tools.ietf.org.)
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 	Henrik
> 
> 
>> Thanks and regards,    Martin.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be 
>> moved into Section  3.6 of 3987bis
>> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:34:36 -0700
>> From: Gerald Oskoboiny 
>> To: "Martin J. D�rst" 
>> CC: ...
>>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> * "Martin J. D�rst"  [2011-10-22 05:24+0900]
>>> Hello Systems team, hello Richard,
>>>
>>> The IETF IRI WG, for which the W3C hosts the mailing list
>>> (public-iri@w3.org), is working with the IETF Tools tracker. The
>>> tracker sends out messages to the mailing list, but they don't get
>>> through. Can you please add the originator of the tracker mails
>>> (trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org) to the list of 'people' who are
>>> allowed to send addresses to public-iri@w3.org.
>>
>> Yes, done.
>>
>> The @gamay address will likely change if the IETF's trac service
>> moves to a different machine, so it seems like it would be better
>> for it to send mail from trac+iri@trac.tools.ietf.org; not sure
>> if you or anyone Cc'd has any influence over that. I added that
>> address to the list of authorized posters as well.
>>
>>> If there are messages in the moderator queue from the tracker,
>>> please just discard these, because we have forwarded them manually.
>>> If you want me to help moderating the list, please add me as a
>>> moderator, and give me a pointer to the tools (I forgot where they
>>> are, sorry).
>>
>> Thanks for the offer, I will leave that up to the maintainer,
>> Philippe (added to Cc)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,    Martin.
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into
>>> Section 3.6 of 3987bis
>>> Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:26:46 +0900
>>> Resent-From: trac+iri@gamay.tools.ietf.org
>>> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:26:43 -0000
>>> From: iri issue tracker 
>>> To: draft-ietf-iri-3987bis@tools.ietf.org, masinter@adobe.com
>>> CC: public-iri@w3.org
>> :
>>
> _______________________________________________
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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Oct 24 09:50:02 2011
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Re: Requirement to go to meetings
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Copying this over from ietf@ietf.org, I think it would be excellent to
run an etherpad instance at tools.ietf.org to improve note-taking at
face-to-face and interim meetings...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Requirement to go to meetings
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:41:36 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Spencer Dawkins 
CC: ietf@ietf.org

On 10/24/11 10:36 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote:

> It was obvious to me at that time (but I was wrong) that I should be
> continuing to take notes in the jabber room, so people had the chance to
> correct things I wasn't getting right, but the volume of my notes
> swamped the ability of anyone else to use the jabber room for
> discussion, asking questions, raising hands ...

IMHO, something like Etherpad is better than a chatroom for
collaborative note-taking.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

_______________________________________________
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From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Mon Oct 24 09:55:47 2011
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On 2011-10-24 18:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Copying this over from ietf@ietf.org, I think it would be excellent to
> run an etherpad instance at tools.ietf.org to improve note-taking at
> face-to-face and interim meetings...
> ...

+1

We once used Etherpad for HTTPbis WG note taking, and that worked well; 
*except* for the problem of not everybody being able to login (due to 
login limits).

Best regards, Julian

From lynch@isoc.org  Mon Oct 24 10:01:07 2011
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Re: Requirement to go to meetings
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> Copying this over from ietf@ietf.org, I think it would be excellent to
> run an etherpad instance at tools.ietf.org to improve note-taking at
> face-to-face and interim meetings...
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Requirement to go to meetings
> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:41:36 -0600
> From: Peter Saint-Andre 
> To: Spencer Dawkins 
> CC: ietf@ietf.org
>
> On 10/24/11 10:36 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
>
>> It was obvious to me at that time (but I was wrong) that I should be
>> continuing to take notes in the jabber room, so people had the chance to
>> correct things I wasn't getting right, but the volume of my notes
>> swamped the ability of anyone else to use the jabber room for
>> discussion, asking questions, raising hands ...
>
> IMHO, something like Etherpad is better than a chatroom for
> collaborative note-taking.

me too - and the export function makes it easy to save sessions.
Etherpad might also be useful for shared document editing on smaller
calls. http://etherpad.org/

I like the default piratepad setup: http://piratepad.net/front-page/

- Lucy

> Peter
>

From sm@resistor.net  Mon Oct 24 11:20:13 2011
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:19:03 -0700
To: Henrik Levkowetz 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Keep 'From' mail addresses from tracker constant (was: [closed] Re: Fwd: Re: [iri] #92: Sections 3.4 & 3.5 should be moved into Section 3.6 of 3987bis)
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Hi Henrik,
At 07:28 24-10-2011, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>My mistake.  The correct address is 'trac.tools.ietf.org', which is a
>cname pointing to the particular tools server which hosts the issue
>trackers.  This is consistent for all issue trackers since September 16th

Using a CNAME for the domain part of an email address can cause the 
domain part to be rewritten.

Regards,
-sm 

From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie  Tue Oct 25 01:47:37 2011
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Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:47:24 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] tracker login link sending credentials in clear
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Hi all,

First, thanks for the great tools. I don't know
what we'd do without 'em! And of course having
read that, you just know its gonna be immediately
followed by a problem report:-)

I thought that the tracker insisted on logins being
sent via TLS. That certainly is normally the case
for me since I've bookmarked https URIs and those
are also in my history so I normally only see the
tracker over TLS.

However, I followed a link [1] from a "last call
expired" mail which lead me to a http URI that
has this link for login [2]. That appears to me
to be sending credentials in clear over the
network.

I'm not sure what's the easy fix here, but it'd
be worth a look when someone has a chance. Putting
https URIs in the mails might be a workaround.
Even re-directing would change a potential passive
attack into a requirement for a MITM which might
be something.

Note - I don't think "force everyone to run over
TLS all the time" is necessarily the right answer.
I'd be fine with that, but there has been some push
back on that on ietf@ietf.org - even though I disagree
with the comments there and I'm not sure if anyone
other than the original poster was concerned,
nonetheless that obvious answer might not be the one
to go for without going to the discuss list first.
(Eek;-)

Thanks again for all your great work,
S.

[1] http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid/
[2] 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/login/?next=/doc/draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid/ 

From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 04:17:53 2011
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From: Frank Ellermann 
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:17:10 +0200
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On 25 October 2011 10:47, Stephen Farrell wrote:

> That appears to me to be sending credentials in
> clear over the network.

With the help of www.rexswain.com/httpview.html
I think you are right (AUTH BASIC).  And I vaguely
recall that the tools server supported AUTH DIGEST
some years ago -- not exactly ideal, it still needs
the password in a database, but better than BASIC.

> I'm not sure what's the easy fix here

The draft you tried to get is supposed to suggest
a "fix", isn't it?  

-Frank

From mnot@mnot.net  Tue Oct 25 04:25:07 2011
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Indeed, it's using Basic authentication; simply changing to Digest would =
be a step in the right direction...

http://redbot.org/webui.py?id=3DbU1W8v

On 25/10/2011, at 7:47 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> First, thanks for the great tools. I don't know
> what we'd do without 'em! And of course having
> read that, you just know its gonna be immediately
> followed by a problem report:-)
>=20
> I thought that the tracker insisted on logins being
> sent via TLS. That certainly is normally the case
> for me since I've bookmarked https URIs and those
> are also in my history so I normally only see the
> tracker over TLS.
>=20
> However, I followed a link [1] from a "last call
> expired" mail which lead me to a http URI that
> has this link for login [2]. That appears to me
> to be sending credentials in clear over the
> network.
>=20
> I'm not sure what's the easy fix here, but it'd
> be worth a look when someone has a chance. Putting
> https URIs in the mails might be a workaround.
> Even re-directing would change a potential passive
> attack into a requirement for a MITM which might
> be something.
>=20
> Note - I don't think "force everyone to run over
> TLS all the time" is necessarily the right answer.
> I'd be fine with that, but there has been some push
> back on that on ietf@ietf.org - even though I disagree
> with the comments there and I'm not sure if anyone
> other than the original poster was concerned,
> nonetheless that obvious answer might not be the one
> to go for without going to the discuss list first.
> (Eek;-)
>=20
> Thanks again for all your great work,
> S.
>=20
> [1] http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid/
> [2] =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/login/?next=3D/doc/draft-ietf-kitten-=
sasl-openid/=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Tue Oct 25 07:56:00 2011
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On Oct 25, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

> Note - I don't think "force everyone to run over
> TLS all the time" is necessarily the right answer.
> I'd be fine with that, but there has been some push
> back on that on ietf@ietf.org - even though I disagree
> with the comments there and I'm not sure if anyone
> other than the original poster was concerned,
> nonetheless that obvious answer might not be the one
> to go for without going to the discuss list first.
> (Eek;-)

It is about time that the IETF had that discussion. We are recently =
seeing some sites (such as Google) going all-TLS-all-the-time getting =
very positive responses in the media. The best place for that =
discussion, which would hopefully be accompanied by a draft or two, =
would be SAAG. If only we knew how to contact on of the Security ADs....

--Paul Hoffman

From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie  Tue Oct 25 08:09:23 2011
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] tracker login link sending credentials in clear
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On 10/25/2011 03:55 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> On Oct 25, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>
>> Note - I don't think "force everyone to run over
>> TLS all the time" is necessarily the right answer.
>> I'd be fine with that, but there has been some push
>> back on that on ietf@ietf.org - even though I disagree
>> with the comments there and I'm not sure if anyone
>> other than the original poster was concerned,
>> nonetheless that obvious answer might not be the one
>> to go for without going to the discuss list first.
>> (Eek;-)
>
> It is about time that the IETF had that discussion. We are recently seeing some sites (such as Google) going all-TLS-all-the-time getting very positive responses in the media. The best place for that discussion, which would hopefully be accompanied by a draft or two, would be SAAG. If only we knew how to contact on of the Security ADs....

Well, if you'd been on the ball a bit earlier, with a bit
of sniffing, you could've pretended to be a security AD;-)

Given that its too late for drafts for this time, would
you be up for doing a couple of slides for saag to kick
off a discussion on this?

S.

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Tue Oct 25 11:08:29 2011
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] tracker login link sending credentials in clear
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Stephen, Frank, 

On 2011-10-25 13:17 Frank Ellermann said the following:
> On 25 October 2011 10:47, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> 
>> That appears to me to be sending credentials in
>> clear over the network.
> 
> With the help of www.rexswain.com/httpview.html
> I think you are right (AUTH BASIC).  And I vaguely
> recall that the tools server supported AUTH DIGEST
> some years ago -- not exactly ideal, it still needs
> the password in a database, but better than BASIC.

The tools site indeed uses digest auth, and only the
digest (not the password) is stored.

The datatracker unfortunately only uses basic auth.

>> I'm not sure what's the easy fix here

I intend to change the login link to use https as a
first step, then work towards a transition to digest
auth.

Best regards,

	Henrik

From bclaise@cisco.com  Fri Oct 14 01:55:18 2011
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Cc: IETF WG Chairs , Tools Team Discussion , Paul Hoffman , Brian E Carpenter , Fred Baker , Henrik Levkowetz 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [BOFCHAIRS] New datatracker release
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Dear all,

Using the tool now. Btw, well done.

What is the conclusion on this "WG Chair is Watching" status?

Note: I haven't found the way to insert AD next a draft.

Regards, Benoit.
> AD is Watching is defined as follows (Ref: RFC 6174, Appendix A):
>
> A.1.16. AD is Watching
>
> An AD is aware of the document and has chosen to place the document in 
> a separate state in order to monitor it (for whatever 
> reason).Documents in this state are not actively tracked by the IESG 
> in the sense that no formal request has been made to publish or 
> advance the document.The AD has chosen to put the I-D into this state, 
> to make it easier to keep track of (for his or her own reasons).
>
> If we were to propose a state called "WG Chair is Watching", then a 
> first attempt at defining such WG state might be:
>
> WG Chair is Watching
>
> A WG Chair is aware of an I-D and has chosen to place the document in 
> a separate state in order to monitor it (for whatever reason).  I-Ds 
> in this state are not (yet) WG documents in the sense that no 
> formal decision has been made by the WG Chair to call for the WG to 
> adopt the document.The WG Chair has chosen to put the I-D into this 
> state, to make it easier to keep track of it (for his or her own reasons).
>
> Having postulated the above, I wonder if an I-D  could (or should) be 
> able to be "watched" in more than one WG at time.  If yes, then in how 
> many different WG should the same I-D be able to be in the "WG Chair 
> is Watching" state?  If no, them what should be the criteria to 
> determine which WG Chair can place an I-D into this state?
> Regards,
> Ed
>
>
> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Fred Baker  > wrote:
>
>
>     On May 31, 2011, at 1:57 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>
>     > We have "AD is watching", used as one step up from "I-D exists".
>     Why not define "WG is watching"?
>
>     wfm
>
>     >   Brian
>     >
>     > On 2011-05-27 04:54, Fred Baker wrote:
>     >> On May 26, 2011, at 8:32 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> Sure there is. Looking at Fred's WG,
>     , I see many WG drafts in
>     "I-D exists".
>     >>
>     >> That's not a "WG State". That's, if anything, an IESG state, or
>     a statement about the draft itself - it's not dead and it hasn't
>     gone anywhere. From a WG perspective, I think the question is "it
>     claims, in its moniker, to be an individual submission to ;
>     what does  think about it?". From my perspective, there are
>     three possible WG states there - the WG is thinking about the
>     individual submission to the working group, it has decided to no
>     longer think about it, or it is in the process of deciding whether
>     to make it a WG document; after that, it is of course a WG
>     document and has more states.
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> BOFCHAIRS mailing list
>     >> BOFCHAIRS@ietf.org 
>     >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bofchairs
>     >>
>
>

--------------090301020102090108060207
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    Dear all,

    Using the tool now. Btw, well done.

    What is the conclusion on this "WG
              Chair is Watching" status?

              Note: I haven't found the way to insert AD next a draft.

              Regards, Benoit.

      AD is Watching is defined as follows (Ref: RFC 6174, Appendix
        A):

        A.1.16. AD
is
                Watching

        An AD is aware of the document
            and has chosen to place the
            document in a separate state in order to monitor it (for
            whatever reason).  Documents
            in this state are not actively
            tracked by the IESG in the sense that no formal request has
            been made to
            publish or advance the document.  The AD
            has chosen to put the I-D into this state, to make it easier
            to keep track of
            (for his or her own reasons).

      If we were to propose a state called "WG Chair is Watching",
        then a first attempt at defining such WG state might be:

        WG
                Chair is Watching

        A WG Chair is aware of an I-D and has chosen to place the
            document in a separate state in order to monitor it (for
            whatever reason).  I-Ds
            in this state are not (yet) WG documents in the sense that
            no formal decision has been made by the WG Chair to call for
            the WG to adopt the document.  The WG Chair
            has chosen to put the I-D into this state, to make it easier
            to keep track of
            it (for his or her own reasons).

      Having postulated the above, I wonder if an I-D  could (or
        should) be able to be "watched" in more than one WG at time.  If
        yes, then in how many different WG should the same I-D be able
        to be in the "WG Chair is Watching" state?  If no, them what
        should be the criteria to determine which WG Chair can place an
        I-D into this state?  

      Regards,

      Ed 

      On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Fred
        Baker <fred@cisco.com>
        wrote:

            On May 31, 2011, at 1:57 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

            > We have "AD is watching", used as one step up from "I-D
            exists". Why not define "WG is watching"?

          wfm

              >   Brian

              >

              > On 2011-05-27 04:54, Fred Baker wrote:

              >> On May 26, 2011, at 8:32 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:

              >>

              >>> Sure there is. Looking at Fred's WG, <https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/>,
              I see many WG drafts in "I-D exists".

              >>

              >> That's not a "WG State". That's, if anything, an
              IESG state, or a statement about the draft itself - it's
              not dead and it hasn't gone anywhere. From a WG
              perspective, I think the question is "it claims, in its
              moniker, to be an individual submission to <wg>;
              what does <wg> think about it?". From my
              perspective, there are three possible WG states there -
              the WG is thinking about the individual submission to the
              working group, it has decided to no longer think about it,
              or it is in the process of deciding whether to make it a
              WG document; after that, it is of course a WG document and
              has more states.

              >> _______________________________________________

              >> BOFCHAIRS mailing list

              >> BOFCHAIRS@ietf.org

              >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bofchairs

              >>

--------------090301020102090108060207--

From kodonog@gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 15:06:31 2011
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Sender: Karen ODonoghue 
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:01:23 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] posting to tictoc wg mailing list
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Just for the record, I am happy to add you to the whitelist and I value 
your
contributions. I just didn't think of it at the time. I do think a 
policy or guidance
might be helpful. It may already exist and I missed it or forgot about it.

Karen

On 10/18/11 5:49 PM, Nico Williams wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 4:32 PM, SM  wrote:
>> It is tedious to have to subscribe to an IETF mailing list for a one-off
>> posting.  The moderator could allow postings from your email address.  There
>> are times when people actually prefer the message not to be posted to a
>> mailing list, e.g. incorrect email address used for that mailing list.
>>
>> Most of the IETF mailing lists are administered by volunteers who might also
>> have some WG role.  Some of them might ask you to "please subscribe" or
>> "please do not cross-post to a dozen IETF mailing lists".  If you do not
>> want to do that, there is not much the moderator can do.
> Yes there is something they can do: they can add me to the list's
> whitelist.  I've done this for the one IETF list I have admin rights
> to (I had forgotten about that).  So should other IETF list admins.
>
> They could also choose to block all my posts till I subscribe.  For
> now that would be *their* loss, and their list subscribers'.  But
> eventually this will become a problem.  The IETF should have a policy
> about this, and that policy should be that the list admins add
> non-spammer non-subscriber posters to the whitelist.
>
> Let's follow-up, if at all we must, on the main IETF list.
>
> Nico
> --

From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com  Fri Oct 28 08:21:00 2011
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From: Frank Ellermann 
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:20:17 +0200
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To: Tools Team Discussion 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] proceedings/81/repute.html
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Hi, 
contains three "red links", using MediaWiki terminology:

1 - 
2 - 
3 - 

Is that as it should be?  The WG does not yet exist, and
that could explain the missing (2).  But for (1) logs at

exist, only the shorter URL (1) does not (yet) work.

The missing (3) is presumably an input error, the REPUTE
mailing list uses the name DOMAINREP, and its archive is
.
The "current/maillist.html" tail for the complete URL is
added by the www.ietf.org servers.

-Frank

P.S.:  Seen in the "IETF Ornithology: Recent Sightings",
using Google reader as feed reader for the IETF Journal.

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Mon Oct 31 09:12:53 2011
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There appears to be two different tools sending out announcements of new =
drafts (or maybe two different code paths within one tool). The two emit =
different Subject: lines (and maybe have other differences I haven't =
seen). =46rom just now:

I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-decade-integration-example-02.txt
I-D Action: draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-redundancy-consider-02.txt

This causes a bit of pain for those of us who sort our mailboxes by =
subject. However, if there are other more significant differences, it =
would be worth knowing why there are two different paths.

--Paul Hoffman

From cmorgan@amsl.com  Mon Oct 31 09:24:14 2011
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Hi Paul,

Messages with the all-caps "I-D ACTION" in the subject indicate that  
the I-D was posted manually by the secretariat, rather than through  
the tool at https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/.

(For secretariat purposes, we've found it helpful to have this  
distinction so that if something goes wrong with a draft posting, we  
know where to start looking for the problem.)

Best regards,
Cindy

On Oct 31, 2011, at 9:12 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:

> There appears to be two different tools sending out announcements of  
> new drafts (or maybe two different code paths within one tool). The  
> two emit different Subject: lines (and maybe have other differences  
> I haven't seen). From just now:
>
> I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-decade-integration-example-02.txt
> I-D Action: draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-redundancy-consider-02.txt
>
> This causes a bit of pain for those of us who sort our mailboxes by  
> subject. However, if there are other more significant differences,  
> it would be worth knowing why there are two different paths.
>
> --Paul Hoffman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Mon Oct 31 09:32:36 2011
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On Oct 31, 2011, at 9:24 AM, Cindy Morgan wrote:

> Messages with the all-caps "I-D ACTION" in the subject indicate that =
the I-D was posted manually by the secretariat, rather than through the =
tool at https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/.

Ah! A cute mnemonic.=20

> (For secretariat purposes, we've found it helpful to have this =
distinction so that if something goes wrong with a draft posting, we =
know where to start looking for the problem.)

I think that trumps my desire for alphabetical order in my mail window.

--Paul Hoffman