From nobody Mon Jun 2 04:36:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEC51A0305 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 04:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.793, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s8HyNIccn3Fu for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 04:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 298801A0306 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 04:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47000 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WrQX0-0007R9-NM; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 04:35:58 -0700 Message-ID: <538C619D.2000905@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 13:35:57 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elwyn Davies References: <1401581323.29419.3250.camel@mightyatom> In-Reply-To: <1401581323.29419.3250.camel@mightyatom> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: elwynd@dial.pipex.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/0DW8qnLIZoMVMcFFpwYRT8H0xP0 Cc: IETF tools discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Something odd going on with DNS for xml.resource.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 11:36:04 -0000 Hi Elwyn, On 2014-06-01 02:08 Elwyn Davies said: > Hi, Henrik. > > I have been checking periodically to see if the HTML/RFCmarkup -> PDF > functions of the online xml2rfc are working again (Ticket #254) and have > observed an odd transient effect on two successive days. > > Running the xml2rfc tool from a cached form has resulted in "Cannot find > server xml.resource.org" both on an initial run and a retry. > > However going off and running "ping xml.resource.org" gets a ping > response from zinfandel and after that I can (un)successfully run the > xml2rfc request against xml.resource.org. Not sure why this would be, but I'd recommend you to start using xml2rfc.ietf.org for the online xml2rfc service -- we're headed that way. > Unsuccessfully because the fontconfig issue is now fixed (presumably by > the reinstall) but there is a different problem in that wkhtmltopdf > can't find libXrender.so.1 (the ticket has been altered to reflect the > revised state of affairs). Thanks. I've installed some additional libs and the html as pdf output works for me now. > The transient effect doesn't seem to affect xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org but > it also has the libXrender.so.1 problem (not surprisingly). > > Not sure what is going on. Maybe some sort of DNS lifetime issue? Hmm. Maybe. Best regards, Henrik From nobody Mon Jun 2 05:04:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C0C1A01C7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 05:04:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.793, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JgqbjQVm55Jg for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 05:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 500BD1A0305 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 05:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47794 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WrQyh-00064E-Oh; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 05:04:35 -0700 Message-ID: <538C6852.4040305@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 14:04:34 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman , RFC Interest References: <538520C4.4050401@att.com> <538582ED.7070106@gmx.de> <9A54FF19-A44B-419C-BE34-89A781E48E14@tzi.org> <5385F9F8.6090808@att.com> <31BE5990-2447-4A54-B23C-7751CCE3C939@nominum.com> <53971BFD-2AD2-4640-BBA4-2648EDC009B3@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <53971BFD-2AD2-4640-BBA4-2648EDC009B3@vpnc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/pIR1lVoALMzegT-MZQXFqw_D_pg Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Host names and ownership of the XML coverter X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 12:04:42 -0000 On 2014-05-28 17:38 Paul Hoffman said: > On May 28, 2014, at 8:02 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> I've never understood why we were using the xml.resource.org domain--it doesn't really make any sense, because "xml" is way too generic. So I don't think there's any value in continuing to use it. I think the rfc-editor.org/ietf.org split makes a lot of sense, iff the RSE agrees. > > Let's not rush into this. It reflects a major issue that people that have with the current use of the XML format that rarely is discussed. > > The XML format is used much more often for production of Internet Drafts than it is of RFCs. That is, authors who use XML to produce their drafts use the tool about five times as often as the RFC Editor does to turn the final draft into an RFC. > > Also note that drafts are just drafts: probably only half are RFCs-to-be. > > Given this, the XML conversion tool really should not belong to the RFC Editor, who has different needs for the tool than draft authors. Note that not all drafts are even in the IETF realm: some are from the IRTF, some are for the ISE, and some are "I just wanted to publish this to get people to comment". However, if someone is going to "own" the tool, it should probably be "the IETF" (as a steward for draft writers everywhere), and the RFC Editor either has their own (yuck) or significant input to the tool development for the RFC Editor's needs. > > And, yes, this affects the domain name used. If the domain name is in rfc-editor.org, people will expect tool support there. > > And, yes, "xml2rfc" is a bad name because most of the use of the tool is for writing Internet Drafts, not RFCs. I'm more or less with you so far. > Thus: xml.ietf.org or xmltool.ietf.org seem most appropriate. But I don't see how you can draw these conclusions. From your earlier arguments, the logic seems to lead to 'xml2draft.ietf.org'. Claiming the generic 'xml' subdomain only for this, seems inappropriate -- I completely agree with Ted. Henrik From nobody Mon Jun 2 05:08:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB6A41A01DF; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 05:08:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.793, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SAe94728Y20X; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 05:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84A1E1A01C7; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 05:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47904 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WrR1u-0000I6-NO; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 05:07:55 -0700 Message-ID: <538C6918.4050507@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 14:07:52 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , Michael Richardson References: <538520C4.4050401@att.com> <538582ED.7070106@gmx.de> <9A54FF19-A44B-419C-BE34-89A781E48E14@tzi.org> <5385F9F8.6090808@att.com> <15513.1401291759@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: nico@cryptonector.com, mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca, xml2rfc@ietf.org, tony@att.com, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/fRJwkGehSoY24XVQJkpTu-xYCBY Cc: xml2rfc mailing list , Tony Hansen , RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] xml.resource.org is up again X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 12:08:03 -0000 On 2014-05-29 19:41 Nico Williams said: > My vote is for bibxml.ietf.org for the bibxml fdata. FWIW, that works for me. However, does that mean that the bibxml files should *not* be available at the same place as xml2rfc, which is the (or one of the) primary tools that use it? And if we keep bibxml files available also under xml2rfc.ietf.org, how useful is bibxml.ietf.org ? Best regards, Henrik From nobody Mon Jun 2 08:02:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAB21A035C; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M4_hSf7r67oU; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E8F1A0350; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F942AC073; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:02:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=YRUCvgIicmyuXWkUAWEY kV3u8b4=; b=whRQ4DCUI7As31f2NtQi4KTdozyHNAuH3vG1K/9Mmjj9ZKE+QH6H N2Lo3Y5PGcqX9Uj9x7/kDATsJEZpPJztqhxYyCKMvF+SJa4HNizP0zbNZF0dCqpU 04QRBPrLA4A6mxRyyHoCMEIhIeGyFcepExNw+vMK1L2XyvTyYr8W6Jc= Received: from mail-we0-f179.google.com (mail-we0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F24512AC06E; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q59so5255623wes.38 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 08:02:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.102.10 with SMTP id fk10mr23280355wib.42.1401721341656; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 08:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:02:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <538C6918.4050507@levkowetz.com> References: <538520C4.4050401@att.com> <538582ED.7070106@gmx.de> <9A54FF19-A44B-419C-BE34-89A781E48E14@tzi.org> <5385F9F8.6090808@att.com> <15513.1401291759@sandelman.ca> <538C6918.4050507@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:02:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Henrik Levkowetz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/0Gw1VkmZzLgcuWRb5787qu2j0-A Cc: Michael Richardson , xml2rfc mailing list , Tony Hansen , RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] xml.resource.org is up again X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 15:02:43 -0000 On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > On 2014-05-29 19:41 Nico Williams said: >> My vote is for bibxml.ietf.org for the bibxml fdata. > > FWIW, that works for me. However, does that mean that the bibxml files > should *not* be available at the same place as xml2rfc, which is the (or > one of the) primary tools that use it? No, though xml2rfc.ietf.org might mirror, link to, or redirect to bibxml.ietf.org. > And if we keep bibxml files available also under xml2rfc.ietf.org, how > useful is bibxml.ietf.org ? They are independent, separable things to me. That doesn't mean they must be separated, but they are difference classes of service too: - tool downloads and docs are not a high-priority service - bibxml is a first-class service that must stay available IMO they are best separated. Nico -- From nobody Mon Jun 2 17:20:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3DE1A03E6 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 17:20:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZPCbpF1KyJFj for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAD161A03C7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A1120028 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 20:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2CCE963B0E; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 20:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1764163AED for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 20:20:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/sKog9nNvWolA90Clq1ihgjMAKBM Subject: [Tools-discuss] question about mailarchive X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 00:20:55 -0000 So, given a URL for a single message, like: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/aSPwrQZFb7PrOK9mdunXlbNXNws# is there some way to get to the search/thread interface that includes that message? Yes, I can type some search terms in, but that seems inexact and prone to mistakes. I don't mind typing stuff on top of parts of the URL until there is an actual button... -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From nobody Tue Jun 3 03:32:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AED1A019C; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 03:32:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.793, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nn3xZTXB4DaG; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 03:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8162F1A0198; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 03:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59835 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wrm0b-0002NA-HX; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 03:31:57 -0700 Message-ID: <538DA41B.2020006@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 12:31:55 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <538520C4.4050401@att.com> <538582ED.7070106@gmx.de> <9A54FF19-A44B-419C-BE34-89A781E48E14@tzi.org> <5385F9F8.6090808@att.com> <15513.1401291759@sandelman.ca> <538C6918.4050507@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: nico@cryptonector.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org, tony@att.com, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/zEZ7yrDwsndvUv37blmqGSb7cis Cc: xml2rfc mailing list , Tony Hansen , RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] xml.resource.org is up again X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:32:07 -0000 Hi Nico, On 2014-06-02 17:02 Nico Williams said: > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> On 2014-05-29 19:41 Nico Williams said: >>> My vote is for bibxml.ietf.org for the bibxml fdata. >> >> FWIW, that works for me. However, does that mean that the bibxml files >> should *not* be available at the same place as xml2rfc, which is the (or >> one of the) primary tools that use it? > > No, though xml2rfc.ietf.org might mirror, link to, or redirect to > bibxml.ietf.org. > >> And if we keep bibxml files available also under xml2rfc.ietf.org, how >> useful is bibxml.ietf.org ? > > They are independent, separable things to me. That doesn't mean they > must be separated, but they are difference classes of service too: > > - tool downloads and docs are not a high-priority service > - bibxml is a first-class service that must stay available The the number of people commenting to me on the service being down seemed to predominantly be concerned with the online xml2rfc service, not the bibxml service used by xml2rfc, so I suspect that different people view the service requirement for these differently. (After the release of xml2rfc version 2, xml.resource.org has not been a tool download resource.) > IMO they are best separated. WFM, I guess. Other viewpoints? Henrik From nobody Tue Jun 3 09:19:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8371A0310 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z9esM3s2orIR for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46801A0309 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226751E45B9; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:18:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c9a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N2lPPoE-HV7J; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amss-mbp.lan (c-76-22-123-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [76.22.123.154]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EACEF1E40EF; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DD658B44-636E-460E-8DD9-236162BF2D35" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Ryan Cross In-Reply-To: <5505.1401754847@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:19:38 -0700 Message-Id: References: <5505.1401754847@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ZWEH_jn79st6XtheDnMEEbojRhw Cc: tools-discuss Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] question about mailarchive X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 16:19:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DD658B44-636E-460E-8DD9-236162BF2D35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Michael, This change is related to ticket #1360, = http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/1360. The plan is to have this available in the next major release. Ryan On Jun 2, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > So, given a URL for a single message, like: > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/aSPwrQZFb7PrOK9mdunXlbNXNws= # >=20 > is there some way to get to the search/thread interface that includes > that message? Yes, I can type some search terms in, but that seems > inexact and prone to mistakes. > I don't mind typing stuff on top of parts of the URL until there is an = actual > button... >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network = architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please reports datatracker.ietf.org bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > Please reports tools.ietf.org bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or > send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_DD658B44-636E-460E-8DD9-236162BF2D35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Michael,

This change is related to ticket = #1360, http://wiki.t= ools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/1360.
The plan is to = have this available in the next major = release.

Ryan

On Jun 2, = 2014, at 5:20 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> = wrote:


So, given a URL for a single message, like:
=    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/aSPwrQZFb7PrOK9m= dunXlbNXNws#

is there some way to get to the search/thread = interface that includes
that message?  Yes, I can type some = search terms in, but that seems
inexact and prone to mistakes.
I = don't mind typing stuff on top of parts of the URL until there is an = actual
button...

--
] =             &n= bsp; Never tell me the odds! =             &n= bsp;   | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael = Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =        | network architect =  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/ =        |   ruby on rails =    [



--
Tools-discuss mailing = list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https= ://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please reports = datatracker.ietf.org bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
Please reports tools.ietf.org bugs = at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or
send email to = webmaster@tools.ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_DD658B44-636E-460E-8DD9-236162BF2D35-- From nobody Tue Jun 3 09:23:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF351A02E6 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FM2KKLmBfTs1 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 595B41A02C8 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC1620029; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 12:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id EA66863B0E; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 12:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D091363AED; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 12:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ryan Cross In-Reply-To: References: <5505.1401754847@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AslpIqikUbpxNTDS-4gCfiOb-kM Cc: tools-discuss Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] question about mailarchive X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 16:23:16 -0000 --=-=-= Ryan Cross wrote: > This change is related to ticket #1360, http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > /ticket/1360. > The plan is to have this available in the next major release. okay, that's a good answer. thank you. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBU432ZoCLcPvd0N1lAQLFiwf/bEoOGVuEV8LWyRjhxGV5cA5OewrSdMoD BMNTjOm+CSehFYdTdK25B0d2Mz8EOhooYuYvAxpQuCPudqZBkR9t6JDX9OTxyVbO bhDrdfHfmFsnw436KHRPwwyzvdCWVJqsfx5wl3P1OGkBaDXLFnF0pSSUnjzy2CRk /OJkJGBZ4JeDQFnb3s8sm5EQZFV3GakEKy2CclV4NXJmb+Ep6SeXkLl8/q59ikrp NOA4mDLBkR71vdDdyEao24Br6ZED/+4R7spsipehUoREGHF+PDfAhT7jXXbORZoB I7pau1vSMhge7qx3q0ohtcqfJW7q0BIXZSkmH7rGu65MIFTC6hoflw== =zPfr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 6 08:04:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBF01A0245; 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Fri, 6 Jun 2014 11:02:48 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: Tony Hansen , xml2rfc mailing list , Tools Team Discussion , RFC Interest Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 11:02:48 -0400 Thread-Topic: xml.resource.org is up again Thread-Index: Ac+BmGFI5KboAMNKQiy/p6rTtzyOEg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.2.140509 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/pF-zijqsN4Ws4y8lCDTK0ctD86Y Cc: "Howard, Lee" , "ietf-action@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] xml.resource.org is up again X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 15:04:47 -0000 T24gNS8yOC8xNCwgMTE6MDAgQU0sICJUb255IEhhbnNlbiIgPHRvbnlAYXR0LmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6 DQoNCg0KPkJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIHJlY2VudCBETlMgY2hhbmdlcyBmb3IgeG1sLnJlc291cmNl Lm9yZywgYW5kIHRoZSBtYWdpYyBvZg0KPnJlZGlyZWN0aW9uLCB0aGUgRE5TIGZvciB4bWwucmVz b3VyY2Uub3JnIGlzIGVzc2VudGlhbGx5IHVuZGVyIElFVEYNCj5jb250cm9sLiBOb3QgMTAwJSwg YnV0IGNsb3NlIGVub3VnaC4gKHhtbC5yZXNvdXJjZS5vcmcgaXMgbm93IGEgQ05BTUUNCj5wb2lu dGluZyB0byBhIG5hbWUgdW5kZXIgaWV0Zi5vcmcgdGhhdCB3ZSBjb250cm9sLikNCg0KU2luY2Ug aXTigJlzIHRoZSBhbm5pdmVyc2FyeSBvZiB3b3JsZCBJUHY2IGRheSwgSSBkaXNhYmxlZCBJUHY0 IGF0IG15IGRlc2sNCmFuZCB0cmllZCB0byBkbyB3b3JrLiBIYXBwZW5lZCB0byBoYXZlIGEgZHJh ZnQgSSBuZWVkZWQgdG8gcnVuIHRocm91Z2gNClhNTDJSRkMuDQpUaGF0IGVuZGVkIGJhZGx5Og0K DQpIRENNQUMxNTI0MzM6fiBlMTU4MTgyJCBkaWcgYWFhYSB4bWwucmVzb3VyY2Uub3JnDQoNCnht bC5yZXNvdXJjZS5vcmcuICAgICAgIDM3ICAgICAgSU4gICAgICBDTkFNRSAgIHhtbDJyZmMuaWV0 Zi5vcmcuDQp4bWwycmZjLmlldGYub3JnLiAgICAgICA4NjAgICAgIElOICAgICAgQ05BTUUgICB6 aW5mYW5kZWwudG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQoNCkhEQ01BQzE1MjQzMzp+IGUxNTgxODIkIGRpZyBh YWFhIHhtbDJyZmMuaWV0Zi5vcmcNCnhtbDJyZmMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuICAgICAgIDE3OTkgICAgSU4g ICAgICBDTkFNRSAgIHppbmZhbmRlbC50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KSERDTUFDMTUyNDMzOn4g ZTE1ODE4MiQgZGlnIGFhYWEgemluZmFuZGVsLnRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQoNCg0KKmNyaWNrZXRz IGNoaXJwaW5nKg0KDQpQbGVhc2UgZml4LiBHaXZlbiBIYXBweSBFeWViYWxsc+KAmSB0ZW5kZW5j eSB0byBvYnNjdXJlIElQdjYgcHJvYmxlbSBieQ0Kc2VhbWxlc3NseSBmYWxsaW5nIGJhY2sgdG8g SVB2NCwgdGVzdGluZyB3aXRoIElQdjQgZGlzYWJsZWQgbWF5IG5lZWQgdG8NCmJlY29tZSBwYXJ0 IG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkIHJvbGxvdXQgcHJvY2VkdXJlIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0IGl0 DQphY3R1YWxseSB3b3JrcyBvdmVyIElQdjYuDQoNCldlcyBHZW9yZ2UNCg0KDQpUaGlzIEUtbWFp bCBhbmQgYW55IG9mIGl0cyBhdHRhY2htZW50cyBtYXkgY29udGFpbiBUaW1lIFdhcm5lciBDYWJs ZSBwcm9wcmlldGFyeSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiwgd2hpY2ggaXMgcHJpdmlsZWdlZCwgY29uZmlkZW50 aWFsLCBvciBzdWJqZWN0IHRvIGNvcHlyaWdodCBiZWxvbmdpbmcgdG8gVGltZSBXYXJuZXIgQ2Fi bGUuIFRoaXMgRS1tYWlsIGlzIGludGVuZGVkIHNvbGVseSBmb3IgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiB0aGUgaW5k aXZpZHVhbCBvciBlbnRpdHkgdG8gd2hpY2ggaXQgaXMgYWRkcmVzc2VkLiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIG5v dCB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQgcmVjaXBpZW50IG9mIHRoaXMgRS1tYWlsLCB5b3UgYXJlIGhlcmVieSBu b3RpZmllZCB0aGF0IGFueSBkaXNzZW1pbmF0aW9uLCBkaXN0cmlidXRpb24sIGNvcHlpbmcsIG9y IGFjdGlvbiB0YWtlbiBpbiByZWxhdGlvbiB0byB0aGUgY29udGVudHMgb2YgYW5kIGF0dGFjaG1l bnRzIHRvIHRoaXMgRS1tYWlsIGlzIHN0cmljdGx5IHByb2hpYml0ZWQgYW5kIG1heSBiZSB1bmxh d2Z1bC4gSWYgeW91IGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgdGhpcyBFLW1haWwgaW4gZXJyb3IsIHBsZWFzZSBu b3RpZnkgdGhlIHNlbmRlciBpbW1lZGlhdGVseSBhbmQgcGVybWFuZW50bHkgZGVsZXRlIHRoZSBv cmlnaW5hbCBhbmQgYW55IGNvcHkgb2YgdGhpcyBFLW1haWwgYW5kIGFueSBwcmludG91dC4NCg== From nobody Fri Jun 6 12:11:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FA31A0212; Fri, 6 Jun 2014 12:11:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUgCJJWwB2FP; Fri, 6 Jun 2014 12:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from egssmtp03.att.com (egssmtp03.att.com [144.160.128.152]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745131A008B; Fri, 6 Jun 2014 12:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dns.maillennium.att.com (maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by egssmtp03.att.com ( egs 8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s56JBEmC005350; Fri, 6 Jun 2014 12:11:15 -0700 Received: from vpn-135-70-102-244.vpn.swst.att.com ([135.70.102.244]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20140606191102gw100j0c5ke>; Fri, 6 Jun 2014 19:11:09 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.102.244] Message-ID: <53921244.5000104@att.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 15:11:00 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Wes" , xml2rfc mailing list , Tools Team Discussion , RFC Interest References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/RYIaNah-Ih-pfICHJWzcsISnxrs Cc: "Howard, Lee" , "ietf-action@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] xml.resource.org is up again X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 19:11:34 -0000 I pinged Henrik on this one -- a AAAA record was missing. xml.resource.org should work now (again) over IPv6. Tony Hansen On 6/6/14, 11:02 AM, George, Wes wrote: > On 5/28/14, 11:00 AM, "Tony Hansen" wrote: > > >> Because of the recent DNS changes for xml.resource.org, and the magic of >> redirection, the DNS for xml.resource.org is essentially under IETF >> control. Not 100%, but close enough. (xml.resource.org is now a CNAME >> pointing to a name under ietf.org that we control.) > Since it’s the anniversary of world IPv6 day, I disabled IPv4 at my desk > and tried to do work. Happened to have a draft I needed to run through > XML2RFC. > That ended badly: > > HDCMAC152433:~ e158182$ dig aaaa xml.resource.org > > xml.resource.org. 37 IN CNAME xml2rfc.ietf.org. > xml2rfc.ietf.org. 860 IN CNAME zinfandel.tools.ietf.org. > > HDCMAC152433:~ e158182$ dig aaaa xml2rfc.ietf.org > xml2rfc.ietf.org. 1799 IN CNAME zinfandel.tools.ietf.org. > > HDCMAC152433:~ e158182$ dig aaaa zinfandel.tools.ietf.org > > > *crickets chirping* > > Please fix. Given Happy Eyeballs’ tendency to obscure IPv6 problem by > seamlessly falling back to IPv4, testing with IPv4 disabled may need to > become part of standard rollout procedure in order to ensure that it > actually works over IPv6. > > Wes George > > > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. From nobody Tue Jun 10 12:19:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3EE1A0289 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ae6XiPcZjem for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B4BB1A0081 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id bs8so329387wib.13 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=75nhjfR8LAEMVWh+sG4FU6vvnaz8x1s36lcdViyomxk=; b=QIbBAfKc9wEkMuUjkCYNYXjQSu4AqXHN818Ev7HY3YMBSSD4BgnMDTtBu4IyOYnQDc 7x7Qk+1o6sCYN5w94gwHb+b8tbg8uesyy/bMqGjNsc/NrTckkatDhFZ5YnNeu4474Tqy 3VyfccOS3wSK0HXIYtUfxwBqtSC4cn3+UcnUAr/eAMzlY0f1bXGL83YdyPInu9W218hx 5b55b5Da6JadKUcUUWrXMHHmBwW+AvFQNOq1ZC67Bi8xzLhQCDmvOqHyhHvcectgH8A8 H07c5WxsdpnQcGZEcfP8TBm3Br7CFoHlfXs3qf3PDyohf/WE6EU+rMKB134RyXW5N196 vy0w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.96.6 with SMTP id do6mr41170408wib.44.1402427946965; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.51.134 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d04447fc19a3cb504fb80333d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/5FH_Wo7CVk-paaLEeLqrx44IJlg Subject: [Tools-discuss] Table of contents hack X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:19:11 -0000 --f46d04447fc19a3cb504fb80333d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Turns out that xml2rfc formats the TOC as a flat list, which is inconvenient if you want to do a little reformatting. Julian's xslt doesn't suffer this problem, but it's hard to get java everywhere. The fix is trivial. 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TLAN5AYjNS8 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5B7D1A029B for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([84.187.50.250]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lyj4F-1WfPN61Zd1-0169Mk; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:24:19 +0200 Message-ID: <53975B60.20104@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:24:16 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Thomson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:VMELUmoXY0DV3UAXyCR4uroM8WQYt0UH5RuFpcMONrDYfs0MkcE av1qTBruKzGYxNw5kRRwHVoURoO2m1JEYhxkYBXWB5reMtqfS89shg5VPNItLo5E6o3Vyr+ Asm+36SK7OA13UWApRWtllZVSX3Cux0WRxD0MPGwUHcdWjsmIJHWTmZwt+NBKxEgqVvFBe6 NIRJ8Xgdse4Kb4/N9Eg4A== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/C1Fug5z9eL7YImSI8SB_4lwUmHs Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Table of contents hack X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:24:28 -0000 On 2014-06-10 21:19, Martin Thomson wrote: > Turns out that xml2rfc formats the TOC as a flat list, which is > inconvenient if you want to do a little reformatting. Julian's xslt > doesn't suffer this problem, but it's hard to get java everywhere. > ... You don't need Java for it. Just use xsltproc (or msxsl on Windows). Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Jun 10 12:36:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA291A0298 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AA-2pTsCXGwl for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x229.google.com (mail-we0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 350E61A0294 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t60so2782952wes.0 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=DSbZC9BOrVX6TbKy51h8wFv30wQSW5LlwAlv2hns79w=; b=lCQdWVmLObvtcc05tlXcJNvlNAX5Eh0Ln70UavslSvmkGLeHi1RapbJxtUapz2MTj9 5IPQOzdWINQPIYMoSpRxDxC8CTNP7srW+vz+cf3khRSyPHyilHBrYVZqZPKFGRznYlUD 0WmW6b6dwPTbuDhTNufezZdRgpcE/doxy8Bd+/vIkV0B0z85EOqK3XOgzj89DH3YkVsI Gt1O7nAJ19kR6utWluIMimVtHOr5Z2/Ai5lsdlztqb9n76p5JmpMdQb96TLz4P4GgndG Mmar2SkBNTvsJbgPXCiMT85rtX4F8likl7rBRAzZsbOV6cmffSEeQ2kASw4NjZcXDCPU HcNw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.72.176 with SMTP id e16mr6417345wiv.44.1402428937740; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.51.134 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:35:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d043c0792a84e3504fb806ef2 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/OUHn2nZZ6wUR3BgwXorvlkN9PRE Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Table of contents hack X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:35:45 -0000 --f46d043c0792a84e3504fb806ef2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 10 June 2014 12:19, Martin Thomson wrote: > The fix is trivial. And attached. The fix is also wrong, at least outside of the narrow set of tests I initially ran. Is there any reason this tool can't be put on github, where I could have submitted a pull request? On 10 June 2014 12:24, Julian Reschke wrote: > You don't need Java for it. Just use xsltproc (or msxsl on Windows). Sorry, the complaint should have been leveled at XLST in general, not the specific tool. --f46d043c0792a84e3504fb806ef2 Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=US-ASCII; name="html.py.toc.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="html.py.toc.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_hw9lyrah1 SW5kZXg6IGh0bWwucHkKPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQotLS0gaHRtbC5weQkocmV2aXNpb24gMTQ3OSkKKysr IGh0bWwucHkJKHdvcmtpbmcgY29weSkKQEAgLTI3LDcgKzI3LDcgQEAKICAgICAgICAgVXNlcyBI VE1MIHRlbXBsYXRlcyBsb2NhdGVkIGluIHRoZSB0ZW1wbGF0ZXMgZGlyZWN0b3J5LgogICAgICIi IgogICAgICMgSFRNTCBTcGVjaWZpYyBEZWZhdWx0cyB0aGF0IGFyZSBub3QgcHJvdmlkZWQgaW4g dGVtcGxhdGVzIG9yIFhNTAotICAgIGh0bWxfZGVmYXVsdHMgPSB7IAorICAgIGh0bWxfZGVmYXVs dHMgPSB7CiAgICAgICAgICdyZWZlcmVuY2VzX3VybCc6ICdodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcv aHRtbC8nLAogICAgIH0KIApAQCAtMzcsNyArMzcsNyBAQAogICAgICAgICBzZWxmLmlyZWZfaW5k 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c1snYm9keSddKSwK --f46d043c0792a84e3504fb806ef2-- From nobody Tue Jun 10 12:56:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0161A02D0 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gr16jmaDCh_e for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DE0E1A02C4 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([84.187.50.250]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MNw0t-1WrS9L2ZZb-007UIV; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:56:32 +0200 Message-ID: <539762ED.9050101@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:56:29 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Thomson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:3qU//1RL8JXixFUic9Nksi0Ml/3qgfiPn3/oxt4tJFvdnFNFkDf cjenRsHEpukpmbtjclLt1TG2XI8UmptqU1c5kyZpaVpMIHegmZiviNTTL1XYEuN+bTycc8/ daL2sVscoZdsxmYCnnU8Ok2qVOX5LvuugqVRQDGtLs6pma7HoY4cAr7V/yxdJSxG3wQnpBN IXI7uRQB6QPrFTAlubbDg== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/aP1xYvk-LC1WCHvM_owsvM4dr50 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Table of contents hack X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:56:36 -0000 On 2014-06-10 21:35, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 10 June 2014 12:19, Martin Thomson wrote: >> The fix is trivial. And attached. > > The fix is also wrong, at least outside of the narrow set of tests I > initially ran. > > Is there any reason this tool can't be put on github, where I could > have submitted a pull request? It's in SVN. Just submit a diff :-) > On 10 June 2014 12:24, Julian Reschke wrote: >> You don't need Java for it. Just use xsltproc (or msxsl on Windows). > > Sorry, the complaint should have been leveled at XLST in general, not > the specific tool. Anything specific? There are lots of XSLT 1.0 processors, and they are easy to install (if they aren't already there). Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Jun 10 13:42:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732701A0439 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GM1WQvWk8kNG for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6301A0442 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0C020047B6E for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=vyGFATE5s+nn5jCHetxI TIWS23I=; b=LDH7Kd/+N/I7ypu8DeiTJZMcfAPTTZ0315hQUdtYCBhc4nC/cxVv /321siB0hnx87QDTtrxLQNB3gQsAGwITPQlB65Ms+ZipVHnDy61Oa6nByyWMZ5+2 Kpn6o8bj1WniYPMWmXtAJGUkp/r9Fn1TKtHUq0IyzCFawksdSM76bJQ= Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F90D20047B6F for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id l18so2000677wgh.28 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.90.233 with SMTP id bz9mr41556640wib.42.1402432935811; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <539762ED.9050101@gmx.de> References: <539762ED.9050101@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:42:15 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/IHr9NKNLqGBxZSnB5GtAHM2FGiU Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Table of contents hack X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 20:42:19 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2014-06-10 21:35, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On 10 June 2014 12:19, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> The fix is trivial. And attached. >> >> The fix is also wrong, at least outside of the narrow set of tests I >> initially ran. >> >> Is there any reason this tool can't be put on github, where I could >> have submitted a pull request? > > It's in SVN. Just submit a diff :-) It should be git :) > >> On 10 June 2014 12:24, Julian Reschke wrote: >>> You don't need Java for it. Just use xsltproc (or msxsl on Windows). >> >> Sorry, the complaint should have been leveled at XLST in general, not >> the specific tool. > > Anything specific? There are lots of XSLT 1.0 processors, and they are easy > to install (if they aren't already there). XSLT is a major redeeming factor for XML, and the choice to use XML. Just sayin'. Nico -- From nobody Tue Jun 10 14:29:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B931A0306 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:29:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E1kZBkVhMM5Q for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CF861A0307 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:49231 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1WuTbh-0004hY-Ap; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:29:25 -0700 Message-ID: <539778B2.5090100@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 23:29:22 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Thomson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: martin.thomson@gmail.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/K7MW6nMB86ci1i1PW2ib2pb9fxU Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Table of contents hack X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:29:29 -0000 Hi Martin, On 2014-06-10 21:35 Martin Thomson said the following: > On 10 June 2014 12:19, Martin Thomson wrote: >> The fix is trivial. And attached. > > The fix is also wrong, at least outside of the narrow set of tests I > initially ran. Ok. I'm happy to take a patch when you're happy with it. And given what I'm about to say below, I really mean that. I'm happy when people provide patches! > Is there any reason this tool can't be put on github, where I could > have submitted a pull request? Yes. The repository it currently lives on works perfectly fine, and I don't have the cycles or the inclination to spend time moving it and the issue tracker it's coupled with. Projects I maintain on github stays there, projects I maintain elsewhere stays elsewhere, as long as things don't break. I'm perfectly happy taking patches by email, or I can give you access so that you can branch and commit in the current repository, in much the same way that we work with the datatracker repository. (See the pages on the datatracker wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki about more than you probably wish to know about that). However, FWIW, I wouldn't act directly on a pull request that contained the number of lines with purely whitespace changes that I see in your attached patch. I read patches (or pull requests) before I apply them, and almost all of the lines in the patch are non-significant whitespace changes. That means that I have to spend time working through many diff lines that actually don't contain any code changes, which wastes time which I already have too little of. Would it be possible for you to ask your editor to respect whitespace in edited files, instead of always stripping end-of-line whitespace, and thus introducing noise in the diff? Henrik > On 10 June 2014 12:24, Julian Reschke wrote: >> You don't need Java for it. Just use xsltproc (or msxsl on Windows). > > Sorry, the complaint should have been leveled at XLST in general, not > the specific tool. > > > From nobody Wed Jun 11 00:10:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7395A1A063E for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZbSwdkJHHJ_L for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EA9D1A03E4 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,456,1400050800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="169491813" Received: from vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2014 00:10:23 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX02-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.35) by vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.106.76.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:10:22 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by hioexcmbx02-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:10:21 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::8485:306a:80a6:ba8f%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0847.030; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:10:22 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Thread-Topic: svn vs. git Thread-Index: AQHPhUQ1yhMbyym5ik2XjyNnVGTegQ== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:10:21 +0000 Message-ID: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.56.79] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C4097B59-2AA9-45BC-820D-36502D9EFF38"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/_Bb-UIw12tT3OxU4Kn3FqTDQ3WY Subject: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:10:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C4097B59-2AA9-45BC-820D-36502D9EFF38 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, ever since I started to use git, I grow more dissatisfied with svn. The pain of merging 5.5.0 into my local - heavily modified - development = branch is just adding to that frustration. Would it be possible to set up some sort of svn-to-git thing to access = the tools svn repos? Would http://git-scm.com/docs/git-svn work? Lars --Apple-Mail=_C4097B59-2AA9-45BC-820D-36502D9EFF38 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBU5gA29ZcnpRveo1xAQJLWQQAlh1Awh9mgdUmU4WH6cztTJnGVFWbNreZ 4FQqL5iW+5JruK/Rd0XQ/cykwas6+Labmlv20pWEtxWZaXOJrDHYwgdt63arklZo 55C8lSbMaclYbnLSpK9MeBjqoVX6lQBI7IZRiaZTNxYQOgnpvIjh06jtsZtyaWGL WwrORvsoOrc= =N7I0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C4097B59-2AA9-45BC-820D-36502D9EFF38-- From nobody Wed Jun 11 06:38:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAF81A00A6 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uHOS0oZR7xl5 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [209.234.253.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30961A0088 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.70.10.68] (unknown [38.109.115.130]) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78B09F984; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <53985BBD.9010708@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:38:05 -0400 From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6+git0.20140323 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ve7BJeIxjlQNn2ReG7duFoDg1PQslTmut" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/pmc2Fk-l9IgvCtRtXxBT4PwXb6I Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:38:12 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Ve7BJeIxjlQNn2ReG7duFoDg1PQslTmut Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/11/2014 03:10 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > ever since I started to use git, I grow more dissatisfied with svn. >=20 > The pain of merging 5.5.0 into my local - heavily modified - developmen= t branch is just adding to that frustration. >=20 > Would it be possible to set up some sort of svn-to-git thing to access = the tools svn repos? Would http://git-scm.com/docs/git-svn work? git-svn has its quirks, but i find it to be the best svn client around :) But i think there's no need for it to be done centrally, if the folks maintaining the tools prefer to work with an svn repository. Each client can maintain their own git-svn working repo, and can use all the git merge/rebase/etc tools they've grown accustomed to, just doing a "git svn fetch" or "git svn rebase" to keep up-to-date with the mainline of development. If you have write access to svn, you can use "git svn dcommit" to push your local changes into svn changes and keep your working repo aligned to it. hth, --dkg --Ve7BJeIxjlQNn2ReG7duFoDg1PQslTmut Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJTmFu9XxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQjk2OTEyODdBN0FEREUzNzU3RDkxMUVB NTI0MDFCMTFCRkRGQTVDAAoJEKUkAbEb/fpcDFwQAKDZ+rx5hNlSiz1C0jv7vyH8 rOE/QTZT8QNl9I6SbzfE8mdImvbj+kNbVRTvpLcsK6L5Fh1GFBgf4824rm2L7+78 UgXt2yRbhlmRWfzLK6YHYbVeSC+g8CuVLIEXy0/PtdhLLtgyuGP16ZRhFHdbkcvb wtbEtc8wt9xJstQ6aCwKi8QNfx4THVvQi63eTZ8aMAB+inAf3Z6wPuwegYdL0L/Y Df4I4vH0oDBav7nY1krh7YMfWAsMUbRT2SlrjH2wM70KHB/iU4IfBiDhOVOprtOK /Od552zjz+uvOXN86C06oMBWrBc3EOYPplNrGotaNEV7eJQydcLo7zIlhSsf0WtD ejQ6yjb3U2Te5qNUwnGJIVIZFlpTHGP+on5bzYNBjgnkUIPSwAK24SMYy8N/QYvB 9yKmX7njZRPYGbun5PQonlnurhcuJN0aUZMNxutxU7xauxAr5t6rQUAWaseE3tyx ANqgAH6UaS5F9QXLH6LO9ZPlAq7ZEnnA0Je5MuSqzMO44E2914pBkoLO5QLT5QCF tBVdqS0L55EoeyrJM0+js9757wCw0SyMn1pmVk1M9ll0sXbUTD05doH4im9pc3FP pKfZhR2aJh8GbMXZQJOQwNGGJDHY9f37xbLFjgyMqI5BMTAxEup3JuqLC1fFal5/ VYZAKYfZnh7NVILzbzFM =aui8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ve7BJeIxjlQNn2ReG7duFoDg1PQslTmut-- From nobody Wed Jun 11 06:56:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965521A00DA for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R1C8_ewtcsKw for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx11.netapp.com (mx11.netapp.com [216.240.18.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52CAD1A00DD for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,458,1400050800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="128122440" Received: from vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) by mx11-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2014 06:56:01 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.34) by vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.106.76.239) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:56:01 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by hioexcmbx01-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:56:00 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::8485:306a:80a6:ba8f%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0847.030; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:55:41 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git Thread-Index: AQHPhUQ1yhMbyym5ik2XjyNnVGTegZtsX4+AgAAE6IA= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:55:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53985BBD.9010708@fifthhorseman.net> In-Reply-To: <53985BBD.9010708@fifthhorseman.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.56.79] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E1956FC-21D3-4864-A943-4362CB8C7A48"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/o0zrgHU4qG1FmuAzdDVF8b0wwnw Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:56:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9E1956FC-21D3-4864-A943-4362CB8C7A48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2014-6-11, at 15:38, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: > git-svn has its quirks, but i find it to be the best svn client around > :) But i think there's no need for it to be done centrally, if the > folks maintaining the tools prefer to work with an svn repository. = Each > client can maintain their own git-svn working repo, and can use all = the > git merge/rebase/etc tools they've grown accustomed to, just doing a > "git svn fetch" or "git svn rebase" to keep up-to-date with the = mainline > of development. >=20 > If you have write access to svn, you can use "git svn dcommit" to push > your local changes into svn changes and keep your working repo aligned > to it. Thanks for the explanation! Do I get git's superior merging capabilities if I run git-svn against an = upstream svn? (I have a development branch where many files are renamed = and moved around versus upstream, and svn fails miserably in tracking = the changes. (It doesn't even flag them as merge conflicts.) Lars --Apple-Mail=_9E1956FC-21D3-4864-A943-4362CB8C7A48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBU5hf29ZcnpRveo1xAQJncAP+Pbaf+MPVSPt2v9Q41pXqBPdm25JV0PV8 jU300jD+vAe7RgaW31d17SAvkKzgKA7AGksSktXCsR3+g1KMzw0fQK13mQxGLRqb aIGKSR6Wg2sUGXgwP1EqV3OM3tWJgHOHidmu1mf+5w71Bb9GB2ljyAUj5R5jvnVB Fu0k4bRDwC0= =Osmr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9E1956FC-21D3-4864-A943-4362CB8C7A48-- From nobody Wed Jun 11 07:31:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE7D1A0640 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KxfKeUHQfX8M for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A853E1A010D for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:55546 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1WujYm-0003us-19; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:31:28 -0700 Message-ID: <53986835.5020301@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 16:31:17 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2A6hq65eOdmTbXj7bg7Pdc676k0D1IJpg" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: lars@netapp.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ddyJoA7Z89gkEEB2wqQpSAWLI9s Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 14:31:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2A6hq65eOdmTbXj7bg7Pdc676k0D1IJpg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lars, On 2014-06-11 09:10 Eggert, Lars said: > Hi, >=20 > ever since I started to use git, I grow more dissatisfied with svn. >=20 > The pain of merging 5.5.0 into my local - heavily modified - developmen= t branch is just adding to that frustration. >=20 > Would it be possible to set up some sort of svn-to-git thing to access = the tools svn repos? Would http://git-scm.com/docs/git-svn work? We've had one contractor that worked through a svn-to-git thing, and it w= as an absolute royal pain to merge his code to trunk, possibly because merge hi= story and information is lost in the translation. The merges simply went wrong= , old changes were reverted, and it was a mess. My experience with SVN merges these days is that I only get asked about c= onflicts when there are changes to the same code lines in the two branches, and th= at needs eyeballs in any case ... Could you say something more about the pain you experienced? Also, I ass= ume you have been merging your branch forward to new copies of trunk gradually --= was this also a merge of your branch to a new copy of trunk, or was it exactl= y what you say above, merging trunk to your branch? I'd expect the latter to be= messy if you've earlier merged your branch to new copies of trunk ... Best regards, Henrik --2A6hq65eOdmTbXj7bg7Pdc676k0D1IJpg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTmGg+AAoJEE6bV0uPuxcaUFcP/2uQqKPoxEQqY5/UzvSKCtCP 3mq3xo6gQTd+J8ArcHHfnnh3/sWwYaTdB/5JIlCyN0rGN2pKdb8WuvoBZNGbXzZo 2obZAsZhdnIr7JY9afDsXNkfJ4XCn2K/a1+ZwFAk1ZOMpC7aIjAP5QA7i9cfr4wO exqn0VJX6vKHTAkIy9gMbMHLWp3w5s7AnbyaXRAqADTK214MvziTkXxGx3OQwbhz 9ePasszPaIGjBLRU51/Ny27QjRaxF0hn8dcOSS2yr+5qmIc8aX1/SRSIwKSSM55w THGIbMmMDtLyh5Ro9nzuqliY6E6dM+pJCS8y43CkbnP/cwppXQGAcllVWRMwHgys uisiK2NPYWEBa7EfVHd1hYZNt2NweUloB6njuS0ShIbfOOcpcIXrCXcIFgtR92SN GGQBfrXlOXsfb4O7Nq+wE0SRHeCajSxCszAFc0W28tsb1YCwYthjhDaJ3v873XMl 3oE5sdYHGcPvE2O9/dh6fN3totKltwb7Dd+HbcED0Oz/QVQ1LgWk1Cvwxq0z0GnS Ab1QlOd15DvwUY4afKO/pR/wfjAbRcEUOtzXVzK51UJySFrM+0YgoSTIdvvOVvSt qLwUR8igebyguqpEDh3clDxq/5eVzkhMzKFtBzsimPG24lhwuj+0vC2zX8zLYrfs lNGg1TxDddnuQz/F0Rjf =cmfP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2A6hq65eOdmTbXj7bg7Pdc676k0D1IJpg-- From nobody Wed Jun 11 08:02:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896E61A014E for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 08:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pw3Cg6w7ByWu for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 08:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [209.234.253.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338EA1A00FA for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 08:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.70.10.68] (unknown [38.109.115.130]) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23E3DF984; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 11:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <53986F7F.5070201@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 11:02:23 -0400 From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53985BBD.9010708@fifthhorseman.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6+git0.20140323 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7G4WHnuAiHoQp7RdLluXe7OKUar8fr1At" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/1LIkqJE6r5pABvViiA580HexMy8 Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 15:02:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --7G4WHnuAiHoQp7RdLluXe7OKUar8fr1At Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/11/2014 09:55 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Do I get git's superior merging capabilities if I run git-svn against a= n upstream svn? Yes, you do. I find it helps to think of upstream's svn as an independent git repo that i'm just tracking, against which i often merge or rebase. > (I have a development branch where many files are renamed and moved aro= und versus upstream, and svn fails miserably in tracking the changes. (It= doesn't even flag them as merge conflicts.) I think i have experience with large numbers of changes at that level, so i can't make any promises :) I recommend giving it a try and seeing what happens. I don't know how you're tracking your current changes -- are they just kept in your svn working directory, or do you have some other history? when committing a branch of changes back to svn (if it comes to that), i recommend always rebasing it to the current svn head, rather than trying to do a merge in both git and svn. If you have no revision history of your current changes, just a big outstanding patchset, I think your work to set this up would be: * git init and git fetch into a new local repository, entirely from upstream * make a new git branch for your development work * transfer your local changes into the local repository (e.g. by recursively removing everything but .git/ and copying everything else back over from your actual live code * commit the changes git reports, either in a lump (not ideal), or as logically distinct changesets (better). * when changes happen upstream, you'd want to do "git svn fetch" or "git svn rebase" or "git rebase" for the branch you're working on. Also, if the changes you've got are sensible changes for upstream, please send the diffs (rebased off of the current svn trunk, where possible) to the mailing list, so you can minimize your divergence from upstream! hth, --dkg --7G4WHnuAiHoQp7RdLluXe7OKUar8fr1At Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJTmG+AXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQjk2OTEyODdBN0FEREUzNzU3RDkxMUVB NTI0MDFCMTFCRkRGQTVDAAoJEKUkAbEb/fpciYoP/3rMnIjdd5Pmmbj5fBvTK5Fq Opv2/m6G1vVArWj5M9M/VUo0ppXdTZqtEEihW45FsK9//s8nOp/2Y6CNhvQz+Mo6 vGCXlZU2rmS9x0f6cF2Mo3O8VXFxHcGyxBcFMcX1Wuk/VJujzU4ROQbLknio4Usk pPDQbhe7ylLyltJD6EXkA6AJCBORb8UP5qFe2XRhs7dit/Ut3IopYOYiBrdj0QtY SsWfCDAJWzPmMvVo6XN9fXlKuaiD5+l5c53hLW1wzv9br4y9ID7Nav09NyaZJuaO hQr5GTnBVDO/31gi6zNucJxo9/0f5UtFWsimP1mBkA4ZKMFbzOGesxough+P2ips gPRRr3IzsL0ocVJrTrN6qz6YARaHueLQuFHqIgwwjGYZg4tdCgsfahD7Mp7TUuML FSHvPH7FV4wzAUYLBqbSeOrBi4z6yAp8j91TZv+n6ohyDVa0IwI8RGVWvgNW0ndC f0OyU8UfIugbgEeQa8llPRm0SsHeNLw7Y0eH1vlha906llHob3JEs3I+ITg9mHzj fZdkjGkeAxhhqijmO6Mpg7PCF/vCFsn2W3JXlsbooMl5Yw82yCGixu1Y/LvJWdBI j7JT1kg/1LnDVesSXXg8Y8OSK+rI/i345zaWQBz6aQmtUepUNwykajsQ7pk69+eV jwcNc79NA3aA5RqT+YkE =O78+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7G4WHnuAiHoQp7RdLluXe7OKUar8fr1At-- From nobody Wed Jun 11 09:17:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9A31B27A4 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_BACKHAIR_33=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2pDQxi-St3K for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900E61B27B9 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C187350079 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=1obDbQrNS+g311DKkIFP wAT9tvA=; b=DDFv2/sxToIZodNhzOS8DHWbhEopBBYUcgYR0dU6rgXbuNMzCFuB ehqT8XHbaN3QkRnYwVZHn6B9pcGp3vYCWWutR6RNtv8DZ5ZrS5JrueTfCcZW2U+u t/AB1lTJ3j9Xgo7iP0A4JVpaqECGvZZQ6wI9OhH7N0JcPJMJ7cQk5H0= Received: from mail-we0-f177.google.com (mail-we0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E460E350078 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id u56so6998749wes.22 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.11.132 with SMTP id ei4mr5695255wjd.95.1402503452014; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:17:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 11:17:31 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Eggert, Lars" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ruwPEnbf9p-4tM02aW0VV7aHpz8 Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 16:17:38 -0000 On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > ever since I started to use git, I grow more dissatisfied with svn. +1 > Would it be possible to set up some sort of svn-to-git thing to access the tools svn repos? Would http://git-scm.com/docs/git-svn work? The MIT Kerberos team used to use CVS, then moved to SVN, then setup an SVN->git gateway and setup to accept PRs on github, finally they moved to git. So, yes, an SVN<->git gateway can be setup. I don't know how much pain that entails -- it might be very little. In any case, SVN is the stone ages by comparison to git. For a large diffuse team of collaborators git is superior to the rest. The ability to keep local changes on top with ease (rebase) is a godsend: it pushes merge pain to the contributor, making merges much easier for the upstream, and it makes merges easier on the contributor too (because fewer in each case of conflicts it will be clearer where they are coming from). The least we could do is stop the use of SVN for new things. Setting up SVN->git gateways would be lovely. Moving to git would be nicer. Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues system, only setting up new hooks. Nico -- From nobody Wed Jun 11 09:54:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992701A01D8 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UMYUinXp9aFe for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x234.google.com (mail-wi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69C5D1A01A7 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id hi2so1520229wib.1 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=yTb6ZZ1OHB1FD1BZE6OjFWOkquwvLw+wq63Mt+eB0Dk=; b=SdL62T8p/FK8XWtx3XOAr0B0GMm5pS/KcYQra2tAgjFiHd6aEpNjkOmdvRggPHHaOd vn4DnIw9+gsCWGwhIZyoOY/8XnimmbFUDnHWZVLbQ+5HmWzyyTV/lHd41agry0ahEe/0 Bj2i36NxtUpgbWqYvwaAGjz0SrpLrETaIiSReaNIdoY/3deHnGO1yo53qxaeyKUYIiB5 FnL/gyiRqEyDvTE5Q2249o2qTmpRTuIW24n2Sill9m0qa3XsSSFNGv4/XmQQ8Fm0U2gQ 8r+MJFJByPT/0vfFVmt8MtirMcy2Q3gJ1ad1mYqm0xtuYuiidfVGTQ4HhYOzOJn9dEMX 9fgg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.133.1 with SMTP id oy1mr6524950wjb.87.1402505644937; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.51.134 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:54:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ytANfRUE0BJbxaLYs1iDb-xEvFc Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 16:54:07 -0000 On 11 June 2014 09:17, Nico Williams wrote: > Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues > system, only setting up new hooks. I'll note that several working groups that I'm involved with have started that move. Our experience with HTTP/2 has been nothing but positive. From nobody Wed Jun 11 10:03:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2ED11A01B7 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5oUf4Kp81yhG for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2591A01FF for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C2231805D for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:02:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=ZMMWuyrcGWY1lB5dtIcM AMrs9RE=; b=SXavH8ZeXn17XXJAfWtE3U11jsPZo62v9HIKvm27VV+f6TSHDjRC Yt/HQEawPaiSiRGfm809UXTQJyS41UENgP96nvXCBbD7EquNgas/fqoPZNYIMnhk 5nk7+gfoEzbgyhhnPpuDPfTVPwDQLQCrWSql1aa5rBNlo9X5cZgUDt4= Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0585B318059 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id l18so23483wgh.28 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.11.132 with SMTP id ei4mr6058231wjd.95.1402506176685; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 12:02:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/g0EuyED0oHEotA5WW8Ztj0hx3yM Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 17:03:03 -0000 On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 11 June 2014 09:17, Nico Williams wrote: >> Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues >> system, only setting up new hooks. > > I'll note that several working groups that I'm involved with have > started that move. Our experience with HTTP/2 has been nothing but > positive. The sooner we bite this bullet, the better. From nobody Thu Jun 12 04:44:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2861B2854 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 04:44:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D3M7UAEpPCw1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 04:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com (mail-qc0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 901EF1B2856 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 04:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id o8so1698229qcw.3 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 04:44:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HdBKfmGuaio53h28EBbKiI1TUfd2sauWtE464q/KKv4=; b=m3pzDYTvuM+CwpzGOcU7s1ifN8ixpYUiKTCUq+ZZ81fLFLX7WWF6crXAdveUBkM53g vNoFCVt6z8w4EBwoljQy8HAdt/R0gDX4e8tn1tCRwHVtVu3Rzo8fBFv2U5/Hndk53LTX vH7AMxthl9L/kKX3ek1Im7NKu4n8/PXCP33kA4Ol9qR5Fr9P9qZLtCMpkYsDRt8ZSSil cJA9hh/FHA38mTg1aa/R58wHgkub9DnXIV84mqwA7UupqECiESOEtD/0wnAzYG+31+Il zqPs6JkF0wCXIQTi4ktw/k1BlEw2ONOq/8P9ZQRziIOgdjm+zCgeqwgIDxowVXQ8tZ1m WaFg== X-Received: by 10.140.90.69 with SMTP id w63mr56986818qgd.52.1402573463823; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 04:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from still.local (184-19-81-3.drr03.clbg.wv.frontiernet.net. [184.19.81.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e8sm1119060qaa.12.2014.06.12.04.44.22 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Jun 2014 04:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:44:22 -0400 From: Tim Wicinski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/D8K3YJJXRy-ZdUi2xe25KiyaPRc Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 11:44:26 -0000 On 6/11/14, 12:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 11 June 2014 09:17, Nico Williams wrote: >> Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues >> system, only setting up new hooks. > > I'll note that several working groups that I'm involved with have > started that move. Our experience with HTTP/2 has been nothing but > positive. > I've been experimenting with this in DNSOP with certain documents, and it's helped kick start some of the authors to collaborate a bit more. tim From nobody Thu Jun 12 06:04:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0891B2A0A for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:04:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H4EMZ1-jQplS for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A7FE1B2A06 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42119 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv4fz-0005pH-Ke; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:04:19 -0700 Message-ID: <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:04:17 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Wicinski , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tjw.ietf@gmail.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/vVahkxR-kp90Cm6EHwYsQLhuCc4 Cc: Julian Reschke Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:04:24 -0000 Hi Tim, Adding Cc: Julian, for possible feedback. On 2014-06-12 13:44 Tim Wicinski said: > > On 6/11/14, 12:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On 11 June 2014 09:17, Nico Williams wrote: >>> Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues >>> system, only setting up new hooks. >> >> I'll note that several working groups that I'm involved with have >> started that move. Our experience with HTTP/2 has been nothing but >> positive. >> > > I've been experimenting with this in DNSOP with certain documents, and > it's helped kick start some of the authors to collaborate a bit more. To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract people to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in various use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tools.ietf.org - There are people who prefer git because of its merge capabilities, in particular its ability to handle files which have changed location within the repository. - There are people who prefer git because of its distributed nature, which for example makes it possible for any number of contributors to contribute patches to the linux kernel without any central repository management or access control management. - There are people who prefer git because they have become accustomed to it, and can't be bothered to do things in a different manner. - There are people who prefer _github_ because of the ease with which you can grab a copy of a repository, fiddle with it, and then request a pull back to the master (providing both repos are on github). Please note that this (the pull-request integration) is a feature of github, rather than git itself. Now, I would be happy to understand which of these (or other unlisted features) are the main reason why for instance httpbis and dnsop are happy with the move. Most times when I've tried to drill down to understand this, it seems that it's not really _git_ which provides the added ease of use, it's the additional features of _github_ that provides that. If this is the case, then rolling out git as an alternative to svn on tools.ietf.org would most likely be a non-starter, unless it was possible to also provide the features which make _github_ attractive. Information please? Best regards, Henrik From nobody Thu Jun 12 06:15:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B6D1B288C for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:15:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24IGPIgLBNlG for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 360471B286B for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s5CDFflY016517; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:15:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p5489399D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.57.157]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB9A81540; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:15:40 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:15:39 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 424271739.157138-63aac153120d14fb414ecb4cfce2f747 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/k4jCYRDpHXVYgPJSMcJoL_Vi54g Cc: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:15:52 -0000 On 12 Jun 2014, at 15:04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > features which make _github_ attractive. gitlab (6.x) has merge requests (what github calls pull requests). (I must admit I have more experience with github-the-site than with = gitlab-the-tool. But students here seem to like our local gitlab installation for = study-related repos.) Both github and gitlab are somewhat limited in their commenting = features; I hope we can get some tool support here eventually based on = what the more Web-affine WGs have been doing. And yes, the other major point is that git allows you to work locally, = with a sequence of multiple commits, before doing a cleanup =93git = rebase -i=94 and =93git svn dcommit=94ing (or =93git push"ing in the = future). Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 12 06:28:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B901B2A21 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:28:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id txwkzboTGN-d for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 863A91B2A27 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lngv5-1WGX260EMJ-00hxMv; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:28:25 +0200 Message-ID: <5399AAF3.3030600@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:28:19 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz , Tim Wicinski , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:601k6MOYJ8kSfBLEoDywp7GrQqrbF8aQKbdweAKDItHF2mMj/Rm MbKU54kURMVxSvabGdcw1YEbZiiNXeElG3pyIu5nI3D3IfGSpZGpzCRlMrsj9UjsliuqDFf YuiIBlyrlgYcrX0Z/IwsP0gWNtz7u+y7JOMV3zTJN81DxKKZCnwGzurzpXEXRgncWLu1WCR fKJnA8+uXV6Gvy3I3wQcw== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ekiRXZr6KOsO4BjM9O3yK9BuUdU Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:28:39 -0000 On 2014-06-12 15:04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Tim, > > Adding Cc: Julian, for possible feedback. > > On 2014-06-12 13:44 Tim Wicinski said: >> >> On 6/11/14, 12:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> On 11 June 2014 09:17, Nico Williams wrote: >>>> Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues >>>> system, only setting up new hooks. >>> >>> I'll note that several working groups that I'm involved with have >>> started that move. Our experience with HTTP/2 has been nothing but >>> positive. >>> >> >> I've been experimenting with this in DNSOP with certain documents, and >> it's helped kick start some of the authors to collaborate a bit more. > > To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract people > to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in various > use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tools.ietf.org > > - There are people who prefer git because of its merge capabilities, in > particular its ability to handle files which have changed location > within the repository. I thought SVN does this as well. > - There are people who prefer git because of its distributed nature, which > for example makes it possible for any number of contributors to contribute > patches to the linux kernel without any central repository management or > access control management. > > - There are people who prefer git because they have become accustomed to > it, and can't be bothered to do things in a different manner. > > - There are people who prefer _github_ because of the ease with which you > can grab a copy of a repository, fiddle with it, and then request a pull > back to the master (providing both repos are on github). Please note > that this (the pull-request integration) is a feature of github, rather > than git itself. > > Now, I would be happy to understand which of these (or other unlisted features) > are the main reason why for instance httpbis and dnsop are happy with the move. Actually, I'm not happy with the move at all. Which of course is partly because I'm using svn for almost everything else, and still struggle to adjust my mental model. I agree that github's issue tracker looks slightly cooler than the Trac we use on tools.ietf.org. > Most times when I've tried to drill down to understand this, it seems that it's > not really _git_ which provides the added ease of use, it's the additional > features of _github_ that provides that. Likely. > If this is the case, then rolling out git as an alternative to svn on tools.ietf.org > would most likely be a non-starter, unless it was possible to also provide the > features which make _github_ attractive. > > Information please? > > > Best regards, > > Henrik Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Jun 12 06:57:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACB01B2A3A for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:57:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FMx5eoHbgUlm for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x231.google.com (mail-qc0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC6F01A009A for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id i17so1915587qcy.22 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:57:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1uDNE6mvzHqys38mtM0+J6Bq++pFr/NfG9iVY0Ieg88=; b=y1H0YdQ5FksPejztJimvlWgkdQKfmJ69TvfuYGkrnDCIfoXVdkypYBcDjdqGleXjAl WLt/2n9YssZx2gg4u/HUt7nmP7RJv4JRjvHALhsmVIuxyLzdUQN8O4PQTcI6DjCRH8Bw Cgeyq2HlHqsa4c+LBPxGfskdCS5uOh+zcohbU5nrycb/lvaUPDVINn9Wjv88R1Est767 S7Met/gU4noq9Fi4bHdyhkFOD+9ZR1fEcv6eTVEA4M1NdunDjKcDsKFnsja5bN/9W/q5 zu6d/k30lEBC8EVIzmoa/tNDyk7jBjGG1TVCNTuMJ2qR7nKop7jTeboViEWhHj2RXqdb caMw== X-Received: by 10.224.8.131 with SMTP id h3mr62134062qah.61.1402581452008; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from still.local (184-19-81-3.drr03.clbg.wv.frontiernet.net. [184.19.81.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h65sm1861098qgf.35.2014.06.12.06.57.30 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Jun 2014 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5399B1CA.6030306@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:57:30 -0400 From: Tim Wicinski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann , Henrik Levkowetz References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/Cy_bcryFRkq14RtuHDpJbjPxpUw Cc: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:57:34 -0000 On 6/12/14, 9:15 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 12 Jun 2014, at 15:04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> features which make _github_ attractive. > > gitlab (6.x) has merge requests (what github calls pull requests). > (I must admit I have more experience with github-the-site than with gitlab-the-tool. > But students here seem to like our local gitlab installation for study-related repos.) > > Both github and gitlab are somewhat limited in their commenting features; I hope we can get some tool support here eventually based on what the more Web-affine WGs have been doing. > > And yes, the other major point is that git allows you to work locally, with a sequence of multiple commits, before doing a cleanup “git rebase -i” and “git svn dcommit”ing (or “git push"ing in the future). > > Grüße, Carsten > Henrik Also, DNSOP is/was/maybe going to be working on a few documents with folks outside of IETF (i.e., ICANN). I wanted to use something more 'neutral' to encourage collaboration. But I found the git issue tracker a simpler workflow for tracking document changes. Also, the 'gist' features allows for short chunks of code (or text) that can be looked at usually quicker, and then approved/rejected/etc. I've used github, gitlabs, and the Atlassian commercial version (Stash), and they all have pros and cons. I currently use svn and git in my day job, and its different approaches to the problem. I would say there has been some discussion (as least among the ops chairs) on the relevance of IETF compared to open source, and my thought was that a way to give the appearance of being more open/inviting/etc is to use the current standard bearer of open source folks. tim From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:05:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B7A1B2A49 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OC2rGEM2PshG for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D19D1B2A4F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s5CE57Xi024626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:05:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:05:06 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/JMyQs6oaeF8iAqDzlUHapMDl9Hg Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:05:16 -0000 On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:04 AM, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: > To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract = people > to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in = various > use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on = tools.ietf.org >=20 > - There are people who prefer git because of its merge capabilities, = in > particular its ability to handle files which have changed location > within the repository. >=20 > - There are people who prefer git because of its distributed nature, = which > for example makes it possible for any number of contributors to = contribute > patches to the linux kernel without any central repository = management or > access control management. >=20 > - There are people who prefer git because they have become accustomed = to > it, and can't be bothered to do things in a different manner. >=20 > - There are people who prefer _github_ because of the ease with which = you > can grab a copy of a repository, fiddle with it, and then request a = pull > back to the master (providing both repos are on github). Please = note > that this (the pull-request integration) is a feature of github, = rather > than git itself. Excellent, list, Henrik. That is what I hear as well. Not on the list, however, is why many people who are familiar with both = git and svn prefer svn. Speaking for myself: - The commands for svn, while sometimes frustrating, are much more = understandable than those for git. - When one of the tools goes wonky (such as when you rename something = using a non-git or non-svn command), recovering from svn is more = reliable than recovering from git. - The GUI front ends for svn on the Mac feel more intuitive to my = workflow than the GUI front ends for Git. - The GitHub methodology for fork-edit-pullrequest is burdensome for = commenters who just want you to fix this one thing. I believe that the people who like git and/or GitHub have good reasons = to do so, and their thinking aligns well with their tool of choice. But = those of us who have looked at both and are staying with the = no-longer-cool svn for our day-to-day work have good reasons as well. I = will probably end up moving to git, but would like to delay doing so = until there has been more work done on making git more useful to the = casual user. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:22:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3D11A00F1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FwmmMEbeEbvT for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C43A1A00EA for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44823 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv5tH-0002Sk-Dp; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:08 -0700 Message-ID: <5399B78E.9030508@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:22:06 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: cabo@tzi.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/xhtrgcuXT4_cN8-YWx0ynIvJQuE Cc: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:22:18 -0000 Hi Carsten, On 2014-06-12 15:15 Carsten Bormann said: > On 12 Jun 2014, at 15:04, Henrik Levkowetz > wrote: > >> features which make _github_ attractive. Ok. > gitlab (6.x) has merge requests (what github calls pull requests). (I > must admit I have more experience with github-the-site than with > gitlab-the-tool. But students here seem to like our local gitlab > installation for study-related repos.) Ok. > Both github and gitlab are somewhat limited in their commenting > features; I hope we can get some tool support here eventually based > on what the more Web-affine WGs have been doing. Ok. > And yes, the other major point is that git allows you to work > locally, with a sequence of multiple commits, before doing a cleanup > “git rebase -i” and “git svn dcommit”ing (or “git push"ing in the > future). Ok. Thank you! Best regards, Henrik From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:22:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8FA1B2A65 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YVM1EZYUxr8X for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6BF61B2A5D for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44840 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv5tb-0004vn-4N; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:22:27 -0700 Message-ID: <5399B7A1.2030200@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:22:25 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke , Tim Wicinski , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399AAF3.3030600@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <5399AAF3.3030600@gmx.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: julian.reschke@gmx.de, tjw.ietf@gmail.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/DcziIcteSw0NdVuiy2o0z8Tg_CE Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:22:31 -0000 Hi Julian, On 2014-06-12 15:28 Julian Reschke said: > On 2014-06-12 15:04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi Tim, >> >> Adding Cc: Julian, for possible feedback. >> >> On 2014-06-12 13:44 Tim Wicinski said: >>> >>> On 6/11/14, 12:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>> On 11 June 2014 09:17, Nico Williams wrote: >>>>> Note that moving to git does not mean abandoning the current issues >>>>> system, only setting up new hooks. >>>> >>>> I'll note that several working groups that I'm involved with have >>>> started that move. Our experience with HTTP/2 has been nothing but >>>> positive. >>>> >>> >>> I've been experimenting with this in DNSOP with certain documents, and >>> it's helped kick start some of the authors to collaborate a bit more. >> >> To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract people >> to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in various >> use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tools.ietf.org >> >> - There are people who prefer git because of its merge capabilities, in >> particular its ability to handle files which have changed location >> within the repository. > > I thought SVN does this as well. Not as well as git, because of the way git uses hashes to identify files, no matter what they are called and where they are placed. I think Lars' latest merge, in particular, where a whole bunch of filed had been moved from one directory to another, as part of a generalization and cleanup, would have been handled better by git. >> - There are people who prefer git because of its distributed nature, which >> for example makes it possible for any number of contributors to contribute >> patches to the linux kernel without any central repository management or >> access control management. >> >> - There are people who prefer git because they have become accustomed to >> it, and can't be bothered to do things in a different manner. >> >> - There are people who prefer _github_ because of the ease with which you >> can grab a copy of a repository, fiddle with it, and then request a pull >> back to the master (providing both repos are on github). Please note >> that this (the pull-request integration) is a feature of github, rather >> than git itself. >> >> Now, I would be happy to understand which of these (or other unlisted features) >> are the main reason why for instance httpbis and dnsop are happy with the move. > > Actually, I'm not happy with the move at all. Which of course is partly > because I'm using svn for almost everything else, and still struggle to > adjust my mental model. Ok, and ack. > I agree that github's issue tracker looks slightly cooler than the Trac > we use on tools.ietf.org. Ok :-) >> Most times when I've tried to drill down to understand this, it seems that it's >> not really _git_ which provides the added ease of use, it's the additional >> features of _github_ that provides that. > > Likely. Ok, and thanks. Best regards, Henrik >> If this is the case, then rolling out git as an alternative to svn on tools.ietf.org >> would most likely be a non-starter, unless it was possible to also provide the >> features which make _github_ attractive. >> >> Information please? >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Henrik > > > Best regards, Julian > > From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:35:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552411A0285 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:35:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-fTwIs1EdcW for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B9FF1A012D for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:45196 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv666-0004iY-6t; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:35:22 -0700 Message-ID: <5399BAA8.6020204@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:35:20 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Wicinski , Carsten Bormann References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399B1CA.6030306@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5399B1CA.6030306@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tjw.ietf@gmail.com, cabo@tzi.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ZiBeV7-JgionsHCj8lkYgt4niic Cc: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:35:32 -0000 Hi Tim, On 2014-06-12 15:57 Tim Wicinski said: > > > On 6/12/14, 9:15 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 12 Jun 2014, at 15:04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> >>> features which make _github_ attractive. >> >> gitlab (6.x) has merge requests (what github calls pull requests). >> (I must admit I have more experience with github-the-site than with gitlab-the-tool. >> But students here seem to like our local gitlab installation for study-related repos.) >> >> Both github and gitlab are somewhat limited in their commenting features; I hope we can get some tool support here eventually based on what the more Web-affine WGs have been doing. >> >> And yes, the other major point is that git allows you to work locally, with a sequence of multiple commits, before doing a cleanup “git rebase -i” and “git svn dcommit”ing (or “git push"ing in the future). >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > > Henrik > > Also, DNSOP is/was/maybe going to be working on a few documents with > folks outside of IETF (i.e., ICANN). I wanted to use something more > 'neutral' to encourage collaboration. But I found the git issue > tracker a simpler workflow for tracking document changes. Also, the > 'gist' features allows for short chunks of code (or text) that can be > looked at usually quicker, and then approved/rejected/etc. Interesting. I'll look. > I've used github, gitlabs, and the Atlassian commercial version (Stash), > and they all have pros and cons. > > I currently use svn and git in my day job, and its different approaches > to the problem. Ack. I also use both, and I agree with that. > I would say there has been some discussion (as least among the ops > chairs) on the relevance of IETF compared to open source, and my thought > was that a way to give the appearance of being more open/inviting/etc is > to use the current standard bearer of open source folks. Mph. I've been an open-source adherent and proponent for 20 years or more (I think my first contribution was code which added support for Ungerman-Bass networks to Kermit in 1988) and I consider svn just as much open-source as git. Supporting git for _this_ reason instead of doing it because it was the right technical solution for a task might just as likely end up tarnishing the IETF's reputation for caring about good technical solutions. Best regards, Henrik From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:46:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459F21B2A74 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2iOJZqJYnJJY for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 946781B2A70 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:45597 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv6HA-0007Le-7y; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:46:48 -0700 Message-ID: <5399BD57.3080204@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:46:47 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/3c6ngYK034JswxJbHx8j5NZmEnE Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:46:53 -0000 Hi Paul, On 2014-06-12 16:05 Paul Hoffman said: > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:04 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract people >> to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in various >> use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tools.ietf.org >> >> - There are people who prefer git because of its merge capabilities, in >> particular its ability to handle files which have changed location >> within the repository. >> >> - There are people who prefer git because of its distributed nature, which >> for example makes it possible for any number of contributors to contribute >> patches to the linux kernel without any central repository management or >> access control management. >> >> - There are people who prefer git because they have become accustomed to >> it, and can't be bothered to do things in a different manner. >> >> - There are people who prefer _github_ because of the ease with which you >> can grab a copy of a repository, fiddle with it, and then request a pull >> back to the master (providing both repos are on github). Please note >> that this (the pull-request integration) is a feature of github, rather >> than git itself. > > Excellent, list, Henrik. That is what I hear as well. > > Not on the list, however, is why many people who are familiar with both git and svn prefer svn. Speaking for myself: > > - The commands for svn, while sometimes frustrating, are much more understandable than those for git. > > - When one of the tools goes wonky (such as when you rename something using a non-git or non-svn command), recovering from svn is more reliable than recovering from git. > > - The GUI front ends for svn on the Mac feel more intuitive to my workflow than the GUI front ends for Git. > > - The GitHub methodology for fork-edit-pullrequest is burdensome for commenters who just want you to fix this one thing. > > I believe that the people who like git and/or GitHub have good > reasons to do so, and their thinking aligns well with their tool of > choice. But those of us who have looked at both and are staying with > the no-longer-cool svn for our day-to-day work have good reasons as > well. I will probably end up moving to git, but would like to delay > doing so until there has been more work done on making git more > useful to the casual user. I agree with this list, except that it's extremely seldom that I use GUI front- ends, so have no opinion on those. How well one likes the command-set is probably both a personal thing and a matter of habit, of course. For me, there's one additional point which is important in some use cases: - If you are working with a contractor producing code for a specified project, the ability to follow each commit to a central repository makes it possible to catch misunderstandings about the project specification much earlier than if the contractor was doing commits to a local repository for quite a spell, only providing intermediate releases. With contractors working for the IETF, this has in several cases been very important in order to steer things right as early as possible. Here svn shines in comparison with git, exactly because it doesn't let you commit locally. Best regards, Henrik From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:48:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679CA1A0546 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:48:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id viS7nwea1RXb for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [209.234.253.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C3E1A0285 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.70.10.68] (unknown [38.109.115.130]) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14D55F984; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5399BDC2.8080208@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:48:34 -0400 From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6+git0.20140323 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Bg4KO2dpGICnhVttXLLhgvckjS91Hpnii" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/iCXCtnVjBGcYfSfuPslqwad7K30 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:48:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Bg4KO2dpGICnhVttXLLhgvckjS91Hpnii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/12/2014 09:04 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract peo= ple > to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in variou= s > use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tool= s.ietf.org >=20 > - There are people who prefer git because of its merge capabilities, i= n > particular its ability to handle files which have changed location > within the repository. >=20 > - There are people who prefer git because of its distributed nature, w= hich > for example makes it possible for any number of contributors to cont= ribute > patches to the linux kernel without any central repository managemen= t or > access control management. >=20 > - There are people who prefer git because they have become accustomed = to > it, and can't be bothered to do things in a different manner. >=20 > - There are people who prefer _github_ because of the ease with which = you > can grab a copy of a repository, fiddle with it, and then request a = pull > back to the master (providing both repos are on github). Please not= e > that this (the pull-request integration) is a feature of github, rat= her > than git itself. Thanks for this list, Henrik, and for being open to the discussion. I know changes like this can be painful, and frustrating for folks who like the status quo, but i think they're worth having. Fwiw, i prefer git for the first two reasons you mention, as well as for the fact that i think having a copy of the full repository on every developer's workstation is a decent hedge against centralized breakage (whether accidental or as the result of a compromise). Git's decentralized nature doesn't mean you *can't* have a central or canonical repository, but it makes it clear that all the rest of the repos are as capable and complete as the canonical one. And i prefer not to use github. I can (and do) use github where upstream projects have made it a requirement for their workflow, but i would much rather interact with patches through my MUA (which has reasonable and bounded semantics, avoids promiscuous remote code execution, and has sensible offline modes) than with my web browser. Sending patches through the mailing list also means we have an archive of what changes were proposed and who made them, should it come to that. I also don't like the idea that critical ietf infrastructure would be hosted on machines that aren't in the IETF's bailiwick. My preference would be to move to git and have patches continue to be sent to the mailing list or posted to the IETF trac instance. I can give pointers on integrating trac and git, if that would be helpful. Regards, --dkg --Bg4KO2dpGICnhVttXLLhgvckjS91Hpnii Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJTmb3CXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQjk2OTEyODdBN0FEREUzNzU3RDkxMUVB NTI0MDFCMTFCRkRGQTVDAAoJEKUkAbEb/fpc3DwQAJ2jHpw6iXVZdxw8VzBAGnBA LBm4R7WvL1M0X37WFBN+/4eRlvIJ7KsXn19fPGH/+Vqhf5hXW/ZxM3pOsngG3ByH gntDtOOGs62ggJDrzjgJsuC9W3EumDlIIieQ0qZoSPfnADaruCLYPhpV4S4lLdKk 5CnipyIxgX3Ea/jNYlWchtUWlqwNXzrnkSqEO9AhikmCtkRArKlVIVBvXkIORp/q A+kIAUnHndTYPLch4fzXSTvp5ATqputrCgfnuN5Q0WJQ4q3+I/GEE6tfoRWAAKBh YmES4JrEq1MhAxVPHM/nf5zo+TkzIiwu18WU7iJ40GUJqzELTd4T4t5ci2xz8MgE f6/pcVW3mLXaPY5bzAZY3ioA8C5mmqp9wdwbri6g5oGZicx8PIXw9/Zzlk2QH7xM ETPBe8Yo3diSCzhfIX5vkhy86wZXdgMW/6jJDFJPmbZMkfmt7TFdkIZBBhkTUbyo IRBOhHRbyxA6s8Q6v4BSmBxx38+Cv2QIun8n3XbPpqMgTCoNyltihUJADSb4C8a5 YKl/dsIGiPCr/s8xBSERzKycAiT/krfsuCx9v56N6krjsEjypMljoNlIDSACdXxh XyEa9mgxqVa9CIaXyBg9JQyYgB5fZppep0VHz4ELN4fp8LINO9PzLK4jYCLGluGC V071dTPxZyJPAGWayFOe =gdGY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Bg4KO2dpGICnhVttXLLhgvckjS91Hpnii-- From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:52:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95C91B2A6F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IwSmP3xN0fq5 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38C3E1B2A46 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s5CEqD4d021324; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:52:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.148] (p5489399D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.57.157]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB79415F0; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:52:12 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:52:11 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 424277530.95121-2a02ad8a3fd698593a4fffd51534cf1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/GYtIj0irL0wcBmFwdlvB3B9NGz0 Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:52:18 -0000 On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:05, Paul Hoffman wrote: > intuitive In usability, =93intuitive=94 is a synonym for =93familiar=94. The fact that subversion has been around for longer than git and there = are lots of people more used to that will always add noise to a = discussion about the relative merits. People who are moving a lot of code are more likely to have made the = (painful) jump to git by now. Even if there are good reasons for staying with SVN for a specific = project, =93still using SVN=94 has a strong connotation of cluelessness = (or, worse, being helplessly stuck in PHB-land) to many of us. Casual contributors are probably better off with a Web-based commenting = feature anyway. (And gists do help; good point Tim.) (BTW, I=92m aware of only one reasonably usable GUI for git, and that is = SourceTree; if you have only tried the other ones, you may be missing = out.) Oh, and Henrik, if you want to get a contractor to continually push = intermediate versions to a central repo, how about asking them to do = that (or even writing it into the contract)? (I constantly have to = remind students to do this, but it usually clicks within a day or two.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 12 07:52:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F7E1B2A78 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wZwpa9KOs2P7 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [209.234.253.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC291B2A46 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.70.10.68] (unknown [38.109.115.130]) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60180F984 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5399BEC1.5090901@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:49 -0400 From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399BD57.3080204@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <5399BD57.3080204@levkowetz.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6+git0.20140323 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pT3kUAiIopoaF1vGlf49fcQRu8DO9X4vT" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/GQqsxqaRV3aCdavohc7EG6SgqvQ Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:52:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pT3kUAiIopoaF1vGlf49fcQRu8DO9X4vT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/12/2014 10:46 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > - If you are working with a contractor producing code for a specified = project, > the ability to follow each commit to a central repository makes it p= ossible > to catch misunderstandings about the project specification much earl= ier than > if the contractor was doing commits to a local repository for quite = a spell, > only providing intermediate releases. With contractors working for = the IETF, > this has in several cases been very important in order to steer thin= gs right > as early as possible. Here svn shines in comparison with git, exact= ly because > it doesn't let you commit locally. This seems like a contractual arrangement that could be stipulated: do your development work on a branch, and push the commits on that branch to $shared_repo at least $frequency so that it can be reviewed. fwiw, i've had even worse experiences with third-parties and svn, where someone "wasn't quite sure" about their work, and so didn't want to commit it at all, and just kept it as a (huge, messy) changeset until they were "sure", and then made one huge svn commit. In that case, the centralized requirement of svn actually deterred the third party from making incremental commits at all, so there was no good way to review the changes as they went, *and* there was no good way to review them piecemeal even retroactively. --dkg --pT3kUAiIopoaF1vGlf49fcQRu8DO9X4vT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJTmb7BXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQjk2OTEyODdBN0FEREUzNzU3RDkxMUVB NTI0MDFCMTFCRkRGQTVDAAoJEKUkAbEb/fpckD0P/1JyoVS//CEck3Vl7WRHycHl U8Jax0n7oFMAdB3EettY5sInzziHTF5U3NrmhoiULLBp4mdrEiS3Q2rZds9AJ+2+ 3qq5BM8zbI/paQZQaWcH3wrQ9j7nD7/QQkv4Zpngiq6Kg4l7kZxXPoBPiqbkTHqF FKmju3rrviynmgtVWskLunpBYa0UGnFhJpMxq1J9Za7kGIHdCsJT2CMOmEKk89L0 ilRb4gZj64Uq2xzbNEJkMjeEh9Z88gWzHIi/mf5ZybZ1VO3bl0xT1igCTnkCMa9B qTIs4HGz+R+qbw4RDZecHtlN7FiD2531LOhAbWQ82BXAUF7kLvUQpqRFGrV2YvXL 8gzqa5AQUyiM1zKI7Aw+BzDzA/+KOlSxZ0pUGIzhEOMBct/7OZRT//1J+Istfqwb M90Rb5sEE3quk2Ct8pDLzDeM6xzoB//R9aQ79z76KpjVidlJi9gnX7jT8h5hDTaF VOWjSEjFD8L5kh6LWOkIehdXvNni5qxK03P9kiD4UjhhFHK9LKYhJiz4iyCKKLkz YpJbMiXzIkXNMmx6nYWewo5QwQAyEcuKa7KCIY7QcNPLN0lPk8WV+ID9tdcIHAyc Bi6FI1PiMfAhGJs3OFRGbJG0Adc6guzj69qFTpjRpfeEuf8pwgexAOjUlmqKQwyK 5rU2ujizc3evzycGlwyM =/fcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pT3kUAiIopoaF1vGlf49fcQRu8DO9X4vT-- From nobody Thu Jun 12 08:17:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A398B1A01C9 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v94nt399NPuV for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E30F1A0144 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:46940 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv6ku-0006eW-6I; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:17:32 -0700 Message-ID: <5399C48A.2070903@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:17:30 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann , Paul Hoffman References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: cabo@tzi.org, paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/FeLAXz3ncQwB8IWgTza8fSZf1g0 Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:17:34 -0000 Hi Carsten, On 2014-06-12 16:52 Carsten Bormann said: > On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:05, Paul Hoffman > wrote: > >> intuitive > > In usability, “intuitive” is a synonym for “familiar”. The fact that > subversion has been around for longer than git and there are lots of > people more used to that will always add noise to a discussion about > the relative merits. > > People who are moving a lot of code are more likely to have made the > (painful) jump to git by now. Even if there are good reasons for > staying with SVN for a specific project, “still using SVN” has a > strong connotation of cluelessness (or, worse, being helplessly > stuck in PHB-land) to many of us. > > Casual contributors are probably better off with a Web-based > commenting feature anyway. (And gists do help; good point Tim.) > > (BTW, I’m aware of only one reasonably usable GUI for git, and that > is SourceTree; if you have only tried the other ones, you may be > missing out.) > > Oh, and Henrik, if you want to get a contractor to continually push > intermediate versions to a central repo, how about asking them to do > that (or even writing it into the contract)? Tried that, in one case, but it didn't work out too well -- it would require that *every* commit was followed by a push, which didn't happen. > (I constantly have to remind students to do this, but it usually > clicks within a day or two.) The thing is, how do I know to give the contractor feedback? I'd hate to have to sit down every day and write a letter "haven't seen any pushes today, did you forget?" With some, it proves enough of a hassle to get them to submit weekly reports -- the worst case required reminders every other week, even when I emailed them a template to fill in, every week :-( I think I'm saying that I'm sure it is possible, but the cat-herding is simply taken out of the equation if one uses a tool that doesn't permit local commits. Best regards, Henrik From nobody Thu Jun 12 08:22:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35041A00FA for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DD9_6pxBVlES for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B79D31A0263 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47199 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Wv6pg-0003V7-5a; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:22:28 -0700 Message-ID: <5399C5B2.3000008@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:22:26 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor , Tools Team Discussion References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399BD57.3080204@levkowetz.com> <5399BEC1.5090901@fifthhorseman.net> In-Reply-To: <5399BEC1.5090901@fifthhorseman.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UiiNM0HGqv6MwXK5BgQbkk21RWBDpSKnb" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: dkg@fifthhorseman.net, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/gi5sBE0if99vZ2gsyZCBW2b42hM Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:22:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UiiNM0HGqv6MwXK5BgQbkk21RWBDpSKnb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Daniel, On 2014-06-12 16:52 Daniel Kahn Gillmor said: > On 06/12/2014 10:46 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> - If you are working with a contractor producing code for a specified= project, >> the ability to follow each commit to a central repository makes it = possible >> to catch misunderstandings about the project specification much ear= lier than >> if the contractor was doing commits to a local repository for quite= a spell, >> only providing intermediate releases. With contractors working for= the IETF, >> this has in several cases been very important in order to steer thi= ngs right >> as early as possible. Here svn shines in comparison with git, exac= tly because >> it doesn't let you commit locally. >=20 > This seems like a contractual arrangement that could be stipulated: do > your development work on a branch, and push the commits on that branch > to $shared_repo at least $frequency so that it can be reviewed. Yes, as I wrote to Carsten, I'm sure it's possible, it's just turned out to be painful the times I've tried it. > fwiw, i've had even worse experiences with third-parties and svn, where= > someone "wasn't quite sure" about their work, and so didn't want to > commit it at all, and just kept it as a (huge, messy) changeset until > they were "sure", and then made one huge svn commit. Right. Great ,,:-} But there's a different problem at the bottom of _that_, I'd say. > In that case, the > centralized requirement of svn actually deterred the third party from > making incremental commits at all, so there was no good way to review > the changes as they went, *and* there was no good way to review them > piecemeal even retroactively. Ugh. Understood. I wouldn't be particularly happy about paying a contra= ctor who showed that level of competence -- but on the other hand it's more li= kely to happen when people start out in a field, not with vetted contractors. = Could happen though. Best regards, Henrik --UiiNM0HGqv6MwXK5BgQbkk21RWBDpSKnb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTmcWzAAoJEE6bV0uPuxca6bsQALNnyFsHxTFeNnnT0YtQHvay HoI/XkThlTq/vOEMnIcQfKk8cCGA6phn/5GCRq6hSRSFTm0FO+AuO3034w1kh5cN 9EbO5Eq4c5hOFwuePNP38U1LOeNEneVdBQeDMcgVzivEEjWpP2w8NczED5+MXFvK //ywbTvyO7K++llOGYr3NSyP03S/5LboF1QPGMvpTh6gMa0hXv8qpOi9qbs2pwbN QXYYqW/OIIMOcpS/Gz7OSAGXxr8h786uoS0xpAgcY7FaILWo2YwV6JjcS8Gy8Z5y QEtSP4vhFexg9BKGy8mqDkATsBY4e7DMAcvF/NdoH+OCV0pTBYZ1rVIezlqz9Fc0 IXsb2/ouOMXM1Id/IV2cROvLnLrxU/AUdrz6OZc67PinGyD8InmWCnqqB2zBOmIK 9hD8HRrHLu4nm67sQQpTi5ijN/0/y/Yh68iNkkOAtRHSqRaJ+WyqylW1If9LX+xo vgYm1OHZrW0ngh8BYp+KEYeJ40cReCCs6teqz/LsVQo/PzCdG/9w+GXzRn0nq32z TNkYrv9FRqCivmjP6oZCOfVXDEIEF+oStRL+Yx8z97Gz0lRiPuwWs5vO6JY8A/kM mD4MqG6EmcEBxV0rXPfVUE923gIDIuzSnB+95IodAEi5FHLIu7KN1dcrpQP6tkhH 32YGuOsD9IjWVca5rBDh =gTbc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UiiNM0HGqv6MwXK5BgQbkk21RWBDpSKnb-- From nobody Thu Jun 12 08:25:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21411A0263 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:25:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bDGfW9X7CQuS for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6FAC1A00FA for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s5CFPau0027421 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:25:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <5399BD57.3080204@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:25:35 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399BD57.3080204@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/8onRqdaxskEX7f57z8MLMIH4KKw Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:25:39 -0000 On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:46 AM, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: > For me, there's one additional point which is important in some use = cases: >=20 > - If you are working with a contractor producing code for a specified = project, > the ability to follow each commit to a central repository makes it = possible > to catch misunderstandings about the project specification much = earlier than > if the contractor was doing commits to a local repository for quite = a spell, > only providing intermediate releases. With contractors working for = the IETF, > this has in several cases been very important in order to steer = things right > as early as possible. Here svn shines in comparison with git, = exactly because > it doesn't let you commit locally. Yes, yes, yes! And I believe that Julian would agree with this one as = well: he and I are using the IETF svn repo for some IETF work we are = doing together, and he sometimes will respond to a minor check-in that I = have done pointing out a mistake or misunderstanding. As much as I = dislike that :-), it causes corrections earlier. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Jun 12 08:33:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313D41B2A94 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZA1vonAEnG9W for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9481F1B2A1A for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s5CFXMxV027608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:33:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:33:21 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/SP6Kg-y0o97FedmFPAAyIg96Rsc Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:33:26 -0000 On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:52 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:05, Paul Hoffman wrote: >=20 >> intuitive >=20 > In usability, =93intuitive=94 is a synonym for =93familiar=94. Sometimes, but given that both git and svn are recent (<5 years) for me, = that's not accurate in this case. > The fact that subversion has been around for longer than git and there = are lots of people more used to that will always add noise to a = discussion about the relative merits. It can, yes. But I do feel that "intuitive" actually has value in the = discussion because we are talking about work *styles*, not just commands = given. For some people, the style of central repo with frequent = check-ins of small changes is a more intuitive style; for others, = everyone having everything on their local machine and big merges is a = more intuitive style. I'm in the first camp, but I don't mind working = with people who are in the second camp. > People who are moving a lot of code are more likely to have made the = (painful) jump to git by now. Yes, fully agree. I don't see the IETF document development process as = being that way, and from my (mostly outside) observation, the IETF tool = development process isn't that way either. However, that latter may be a = side-effect of using svn. > Even if there are good reasons for staying with SVN for a specific = project, =93still using SVN=94 has a strong connotation of cluelessness = (or, worse, being helplessly stuck in PHB-land) to many of us. That's fashion, not style. > Casual contributors are probably better off with a Web-based = commenting feature anyway. > (And gists do help; good point Tim.) Please say more about that; I haven't seen gists used much at all in the = places I have used GitHub. > (BTW, I=92m aware of only one reasonably usable GUI for git, and that = is SourceTree; if you have only tried the other ones, you may be missing = out.) I used SourceTree, and it seems primitive relative to svn GUIs like = Cornerstone. > Oh, and Henrik, if you want to get a contractor to continually push = intermediate versions to a central repo, how about asking them to do = that (or even writing it into the contract)? (I constantly have to = remind students to do this, but it usually clicks within a day or two.) Yeah, if we go to git as the accepted repo tool, we might have to also = have to emphasize that some management style is needed as well. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Jun 12 09:43:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5806E1B27E1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2mif3kstJjUn for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF571B27CA for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69E02007DA09 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=NVZq+NbSXsOSBw9eWcp0 LUg5iug=; b=Yybi2gUtd+Y3EKZ9UqcoRw1+ixL5p8j4P69ucVBByKAZvp17bI7N cAWU0Dbhkc89qwrQIq9dU7C4zYw6IuwpLeqJPZ9OOKBV70YshNWU7WfKP29fPjpp C05yezgbb5qLyyGEyC8IyVG4uOU4gqQr0H3mylgpkEvLnF8Wch3UAWI= Received: from mail-wi0-f175.google.com (mail-wi0-f175.google.com [209.85.212.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 991732005D823 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id r20so2020330wiv.14 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.142.205 with SMTP id ry13mr62638537wjb.69.1402591415493; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:43:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 11:43:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Henrik Levkowetz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/Kqlf4F5Sgp0cDhp4gSLgtH7IUks Cc: Julian Reschke , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:43:38 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract people > to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in various > use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tools.ietf.org My list is different than yours: - git is just a pile of objects forming a tree of Merkle hash chains, plus symbolic references to them. This is EASY to understand and use, and it facilitates the next thing: - git makes it easy to minimize the scope and complexity of merges by making workflows possible where downstreams rebase constantly so as to keep their commits "on top" of the upstreams' latest master branch. This minimizes merge complexity for downstreams and eliminates it for most upstreams (where most merges are "fast-foward" merges). There are other features. And yes, the ease with which one can get git public repos hosted for free at github/gitlab/gitorious/... is very, very nice. And the tooling those sites provide is very, very, very nice. But really, the key is that git facilitates every workflow, particularly merge-minimizing workflows. There's other things, but they are less important. Finally, there's this: - network effects. Git has sucked all the oxygen out of the room for the other VCSes. If you loved SVN, well, too bad; the rest of the world has moved on. You can see it as similar to JavaScript winning if you like (I don't), and go sulk in a corner. Non-git VCS usage is now niche usage. The flip side, of course, is that continuing to use non-git VCSes for public projects fails to take advantage of git's positive network effects. Therefore sticking to not-git -> less cooperation. You can go browse the git-based repo hosting sites and observe this for yourself by comparing to the others. I hate to make the "it's the popular kid and we all want to be popular" argument. But if it helps win you over, I don't mind. Of course, SVN is one of the most difficult-to-use VCSes out there. So there's that. I simply don't have the time to bring myself to attempt to re-learn SVN (and suffer its awful and storage-heavy branching model) just to contribute something to xml2rfc -- if I have to do that, then I just won't do it at all. Call this a juvenile attitude if you like, but it's the truth; there are more interesting and deserving git-hosted open source projects to contribute to, and I can easily discover them. Every minute of extra time I have for contributions is extremely valuable, so I choose carefully. The network effect says: most would-be contributors are just like me in this sense. Nico -- From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:15:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6EA1B27C6 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5Tc8I8c4SxL for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94DFD1A015E for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([93.217.74.112]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M2Glc-1WeRBa1Ito-00s6kV; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 19:15:10 +0200 Message-ID: <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 19:15:01 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , Henrik Levkowetz References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:S0ZpLha0l4MUhY7s0U60JhzLtQWzo/aNtm85CN1uIqooHIaWC1T 5bGklusTWH4355h7Gu7nFEb+q54TXqaFepIaAjYohKWPAHfwvc0MgDDqjOgdFNIACBUBc2L FjtTI0ZEpe3UXZeXf9RfBEQ3UV7UTGl/BsH5iT9596wkMtAoy6GwaAB1iatrRVHxQzYwO9A Ocs88VYmVkPj09dgZdYrw== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/h4E-qcoFmCRbp60_AxM_KsccsdE Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:15:36 -0000 On 2014-06-12 18:43, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> To my mind, there seems to be a few different features that attract people >> to git, and understanding which of those is the essential one in various >> use cases would be helpful in determining what could be offered on tools.ietf.org > > My list is different than yours: > > - git is just a pile of objects forming a tree of Merkle hash chains, > plus symbolic references to them. > > This is EASY to understand and use, and it facilitates the next thing: > ... Ahem. From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:28:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D711A01E1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JLo8lJMur2A for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86251A0068 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7920520047B59 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Jwc6pFQ3wuxans0zJ5n2 ie5dxnc=; b=fNa3yXaCSoS4u5/ENvAGfwWInTYJcXL91qQ0W3HnvAoZbdnrwDKB druhnKGPxwKZexVirJHNsizJvegusIOe9ub/wYAODOxRO/ADaVFSkXEGW0cjPJY5 d5A1MKhFx5YOqQ68GXqJq8JqbzvMCGadl1T+Vprdgcx7VYP7AxkCftw= Received: from mail-we0-f174.google.com (mail-we0-f174.google.com [74.125.82.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E96E20047B57 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f174.google.com with SMTP id u57so1680571wes.33 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.212.77 with SMTP id ni13mr8347856wic.5.1402594128063; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:28:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WId8v1mZQhSQlPWDX_8ZXVX_AbI Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:28:50 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2014-06-12 18:43, Nico Williams wrote: >> My list is different than yours: >> >> - git is just a pile of objects forming a tree of Merkle hash chains, >> plus symbolic references to them. >> >> This is EASY to understand and use, and it facilitates the next thing: >> ... > > Ahem. I know those who dislike git are loud and think this makes git difficult to understand. But I find this the easiest way to understand version control. It's what makes rebasing easy, for example. And, of course, master repos must not allow symbolic names to move in any way around the tree, just down a straight line/chain. That's the a concise and fairly complete summary of what git is, and it expresses its full power as well. I do believe the users on this list can grasp it too. With the others you have a downright paternalistic attitude from the VCS, trying to hem you in and contain you. git supports lots of workflows; the others many fewer. People with git horror stories tend to misunderstand the (admittedly horrible) git reset command. But as long as you've committed your changes, then there they are, always available for you to find them (just don't git prune, which you wouldn't). With the other VCSes it's also easy to get confused, but because the machinery is hidden from the user, the user can't think their way out of whatever box they get themselves stuck in. At least that's my experience: git lets me think my way out of any bind, the others require finding someone who knows, a stackoverflow answer to a similar problem, some blog covering it. Nico -- From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:32:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06D11A01C0 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxeCrP6HqIzf for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40D631A017F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id bs8so4007403wib.13 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=wjySpIpRIc/1RiwLlGf9tnK1MBa1RwmaMY1RhSs80xY=; b=nF8q9qVRbmGBrkPb7dogvMYpoDa0KO+tU4tznzWBBVEfmlYOeWMtFoFNc/sLJSQk4R jscEIMsAZGeZvhD3Glkdj3TjJqvrAuOXE5UlFvFxXtBu+wnOPs7md1Q3qZ8os1Nwvwu7 7WYzmS7lOEjEvRt65fAr4GYubMATy7zjLbv6Vl2yrQsofB1GtSCWWPF0iRIBaIxnV8Ru h6Y5UnFO3kGUluwTjBTMalZ3wHBQZo5AYm1GF4t1zRYj2pkERa8LM8rJSmIIvbbw5fHB 75S7P+Kwzoouvf53IcV4uCNHvrnMyEFZOVQIPO/9OeX0ALutIw7Jb5JY0c383QFpwSWn bXzQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.18.8 with SMTP id gi8mr64276663wjd.75.1402594371757; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.51.134 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:51 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/0VI6nnZzc_Yn8uKMs4i9RoJZO-0 Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:32:55 -0000 On 12 June 2014 10:15, Julian Reschke wrote: >> This is EASY to understand and use, and it facilitates the next thing: > > Ahem. I don't think that pursuing this line is productive at all. Nico has hit the nail on the head when he talks about network effects. And though dkg is probably right to be cautious about github, I find that the benefit derived from network effects there vastly outweighs the drawbacks. The same argument applies to the git tool, though to a lesser extent. One of the major reasons that github has worked for HTTPbis is the accessibility it brings. There are far more people watching github, far more who are familiar with the tool and therefore far more who willingly contribute to improving the spec. Github lists 37 contributors to HTTP/2: https://github.com/http2/http2-spec/graphs/contributors BTW, I do find the ability to work on the plane to be highly advantageous. I find the ease with which I can manage concurrent change sets to be superior to any other VCS system I've ever used. It hasn't been mentioned yet, but the supporting tools are also very good. We've just started using Travis CI for building an editor's copy of the spec. That is working out brilliantly. Pull requests are checked for sanity and pushes to the master branch are automatically built and uploaded onto a web page. Finally, github is fast. I simply cannot work with the *.ietf.org tools: they are frustrating primarily because they are extremely slow. From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:34:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5E61A017F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:34:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ulru_xJK6Ks6 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FCF41A01C0 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([93.217.74.112]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LZmd6-1WTTcs3Mcu-00lTvz; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 19:33:47 +0200 Message-ID: <5399E474.6050803@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 19:33:40 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qIZ3HPsPqRzSkV8kwE24EPO3P5ATi4Zz0GyL97fhZBdA3985Jts 7H6T690C6tmcqXiRVZmSkBI/WJSXMstX/v6Nru/XLApwetZNXNwNYz81fVpJEQFRLgYf7Bo BrdQgRsnP47kxF9OIhrkLBgdv/bGX1ZQF8Ba1aJR9CiHGjbS6hEhr34Qeg5lhxQaaZVsnRR lsQSGJ2g3Wy2Ida2y0y8Q== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/kynjvkUnmeYVf0nxU7cEnMJW1zU Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:34:07 -0000 On 2014-06-12 19:28, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2014-06-12 18:43, Nico Williams wrote: >>> My list is different than yours: >>> >>> - git is just a pile of objects forming a tree of Merkle hash chains, >>> plus symbolic references to them. >>> >>> This is EASY to understand and use, and it facilitates the next thing: >>> ... >> >> Ahem. > > I know those who dislike git are loud and think this makes git > difficult to understand. But I find this the easiest way to > understand version control. It's what makes rebasing easy, for > example. And, of course, master repos must not allow symbolic names > to move in any way around the tree, just down a straight line/chain. > > That's the a concise and fairly complete summary of what git is, and > it expresses its full power as well. I do believe the users on this > list can grasp it too. > > With the others you have a downright paternalistic attitude from the > VCS, trying to hem you in and contain you. git supports lots of > workflows; the others many fewer. > > People with git horror stories tend to misunderstand the (admittedly > horrible) git reset command. But as long as you've committed your > changes, then there they are, always available for you to find them > (just don't git prune, which you wouldn't). With the other VCSes it's > also easy to get confused, but because the machinery is hidden from > the user, the user can't think their way out of whatever box they get > themselves stuck in. At least that's my experience: git lets me think > my way out of any bind, the others require finding someone who knows, > a stackoverflow answer to a similar problem, some blog covering it. Well. My experience is exactly the opposite. I'm familiar with SVN. It allows me to do what I want, and if there's a problem I usually quickly find a way out. When I use git and do something more complicated than "update, modify, commit" I frequently find myself in a maze of incomprehensible error messages, command lines, advice etc. And yes, I understand that if I used git more, things would be better. It's just not true that git in any way is "easier" than svn. Best regards, Julian PS: partial checkouts, anyone? Ever tried to clone a 1GB git repo over a flaky, slow connection? From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:35:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C7E1B2ABF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WWyQEDar-lEv for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58C21A01C0 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E5F26C06F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=RQuJv55uS/P0GE1SX7XScsaP1kk=; b=fq6Q3iluMC0 oyvXEtoUwOY+7RL8f/cPrIjTGpYxjufCfuAeGCaB9xChRvJXB7BO84bPbT02T2Sa sXOzKe6aKh1kKdIkMKgnrZHjCpKBpzyFXb1jJjnksfoYuy9zm4d7p73Y8q47UCsp Ghy2L4wFQ0uVCBXwuf0+0Cs36POkyU9o= Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 56F7A26C063 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id l18so1601602wgh.28 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.142.205 with SMTP id ry13mr63048935wjb.69.1402594533829; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:35:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/jscmYB6DTU2vLavA8rVAnzt6VoQ Cc: Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:35:36 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Paul Hoffman wrot= e: > On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:52 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:05, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> >>> intuitive >> >> In usability, =E2=80=9Cintuitive=E2=80=9D is a synonym for =E2=80=9Cfami= liar=E2=80=9D. > > Sometimes, but given that both git and svn are recent (<5 years) for me, = that's not accurate in this case. SVN is 14 years old. git is 9 years old. >> (BTW, I=E2=80=99m aware of only one reasonably usable GUI for git, and t= hat is SourceTree; if you have only tried the other ones, you may be missin= g out.) > > I used SourceTree, and it seems primitive relative to svn GUIs like Corne= rstone. What are those svn GUIs? I do like SourceTree... Nico -- From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:42:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571EC1B27ED for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LvW90VoCsS3a for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6249E1A01C0 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446FD2007F224 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=N0uGOA4tGDHbkOd86BeF 86Hf5vY=; b=ax6GEjYYprls9oDbfg9cn6XvA47/hLaR0LVXPWUiFQfQe+0seEw8 Wowde+43FPXVkiPlDQP0YXCRuVjJQ+NsDjsLh3sn3QcuxKzWBLEnaec/fAB1/GkS OnelM4CKYWv+riYcuf4V/VNxv7Jwgf3IflC/I3AY7ZrH+4ID0P8WRCg= Received: from mail-we0-f173.google.com (mail-we0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EDBB72007F223 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id t60so1650345wes.18 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.75.212 with SMTP id e20mr8473612wiw.5.1402594971825; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5399E474.6050803@gmx.de> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> <5399E474.6050803@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:42:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/XHsgtulhaaq2slDtEkpZxaa7nMg Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:42:54 -0000 git clone supports partial cloning. From nobody Thu Jun 12 10:52:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080E41A01CE for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r28ha3Ut225V for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29121A01C0 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9C3768061 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=u43j0pfQF2Ec2A++Gfcj MJKwZvo=; b=fx6PspuwUA6iiHRUjyHLZvo7WV+S/hR5Xa2Q7f9KljKkDjDulUHO klf2/gRF/f247AgVVdTe8qb2k/eR60r9riaglIYvad/2wLIkGZy/5f3UpQYDeFBB 2i5ps+HzDqz+4xiav9t+wD2zskZIsJGbaHnyYL7ZR8YqidMcNsmGloY= Received: from mail-wg0-f51.google.com (mail-wg0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8291B76805C for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id x12so1635766wgg.10 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.90.233 with SMTP id bz9mr8723164wib.42.1402595543432; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:52:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5399E474.6050803@gmx.de> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <5399E015.3050505@gmx.de> <5399E474.6050803@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:52:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/Lc4_hodUmF8NKeFZIvE8Cs3PvSw Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 17:52:26 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > When I use git and do something more complicated than "update, modify, > commit" I frequently find myself in a maze of incomprehensible error > messages, command lines, advice etc. And yes, I understand that if I used > git more, things would be better. It's just not true that git in any way is > "easier" than svn. The key is to think of git as a bag of commits forming a tree, with branches being symbolic names for specific commits (which move when you've got a branch checked out and you add a commit). With that model in mind the rest is easy. You have the local repo in .git, you have you files checked out in your workspace. You edit, add, commit, repeat. If ever you want to break up as-yet uncommitted changes use git add -p or git add -e, commit, then repeat until no uncommitted changes remain. If ever you want to discard changes, use "git checkout -- files" (NOT git reset; stay away from git reset). If the upstream adds commits, just commit any extant work then "git fetch origin; git rebase origin/master" -- if you don't name the upstream origin, change that in that command; ditto the master branch name. If ever you want to edit as-yet-unpushed commits just find a commit that's a parent of the oldest one you want to edit and use git rebase -i. If you get lost use "git reflog": it tells you what you've done an helps you find commits you've left unreachable from symbolic (branch, tag) names. That's it. That's all you need to know. The manpage verbiage is easier to decipher when you think of git this way. You're thinking your way through and the commands are just tools. Nico -- From nobody Thu Jun 12 13:20:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F531B2809 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:20:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTGd10XlsyzP for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0A831A028D for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s5CKKlhh039519 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:20:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:20:47 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/lkdSmhwhK9X6Rs0Je-lVuToud8I Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 20:20:51 -0000 On Jun 12, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Nico Williams = wrote: > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Paul Hoffman = wrote: >> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:52 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >>> On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:05, Paul Hoffman = wrote: >>>=20 >>>> intuitive >>>=20 >>> In usability, =93intuitive=94 is a synonym for =93familiar=94. >>=20 >> Sometimes, but given that both git and svn are recent (<5 years) for = me, that's not accurate in this case. >=20 > SVN is 14 years old. git is 9 years old. And I didn't start using them when they first came out; I waited until = they seemed useful to my work. If you think that makes me look stupid or = old-fashioned, fine. However, I am *constantly* finding IETFers who have = not used either as well. This thread is about changing to git *for IETF = use*, not *for people who already like git*. The rest of thread on "I understand Merkle trees, so every one will too" = misses the same point. You understand git in a way that works well for = you; that's great. For me, even though I understand Merkle trees, git = has things that make my work harder when I use it, so I stay with svn. = When forced to use GitHub, I do (barely); fortunately, no one has forced = me to use git for work so far. > What are those svn GUIs? I do like SourceTree... Mac-only: I use Cornerstone all the time. Earlier, I used Versions. Both = are expensive ($60), and both were easily worth the money for my = day-to-day work. The downside is that both have slow tech support. YMMV. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Jun 12 16:02:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F02F61A02C4 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Xos4epyxScN for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC1D1A02BE for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D04C27BC065 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=qKHW5EpIvdJO/l+bulmimQ4hgeY=; b=RVeR0teCi32 U5qcN085bTCkD8ZHejbbRa5zMMVcc/h9CGTsIbm+mFW1FPrBTOEjE/1o4sZdRA/P X8Jk18xsQLvT/7u8QpWtJCGhzAle7fThbpK2iclPpk2qXKKVSb6RwW5xuA4KuhQv 7P87jITi+eERSlan948mey+tRoth4ZJs= Received: from mail-we0-f172.google.com (mail-we0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF1EA27BC064 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f172.google.com with SMTP id u57so2002415wes.3 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.90.233 with SMTP id bz9mr237704wib.42.1402614160812; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:02:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 18:02:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/p-9vLMxMirBzMa9MeH2vivWJ8N0 Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 23:02:44 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote= : > On Jun 12, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Nico Williams wrote= : >>> Sometimes, but given that both git and svn are recent (<5 years) for me= , that's not accurate in this case. >> >> SVN is 14 years old. git is 9 years old. Oops, I misread what you wrote. My apologies. > The rest of thread on "I understand Merkle trees, so every one will too" = misses the same point. You understand git in a way that works well for you;= that's great. For me, even though I understand Merkle trees, git has thing= s that make my work harder when I use it, so I stay with svn. When forced t= o use GitHub, I do (barely); fortunately, no one has forced me to use git f= or work so far. Interesting. Can you elaborate? Perhaps in a new thread, or perhaps off-l= ist? If someone said it, I would agree that "a bad of commits forming a Merkle tree(s)" is a bit... focused on design and implementation details, but it's also about what every modern VCS does (Fossil, Mercurial, git, ...). I find that trying to sugar-coat this just makes things worse, not better. This is a detail that is foundational and best exposed rather than hidden -- fixing booboos is so much easier when this is exposed and understood than when it's hidden. >> What are those svn GUIs? I do like SourceTree... > > Mac-only: I use Cornerstone all the time. Earlier, I used Versions. Both = are expensive ($60), and both were easily worth the money for my day-to-day= work. The downside is that both have slow tech support. YMMV. I believe it. The tortoise* GUIs never worked for me. SourceTree is the first VCS GUI I've ever enjoyed and which felt natural (though I don't like its workspace view, but hey). Thanks, Nico -- From nobody Fri Jun 13 02:42:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECD21A01F6 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 02:42:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vorIXQRUComc for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 02:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx11.netapp.com (mx11.netapp.com [216.240.18.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C70D51A0140 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 02:42:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,470,1400050800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="128514054" Received: from vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) by mx11-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 13 Jun 2014 02:42:02 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX06-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.39) by vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.106.76.239) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 02:42:02 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by hioexcmbx06-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 02:41:56 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::8485:306a:80a6:ba8f%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0847.030; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 02:41:56 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Tools Team Discussion Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git Thread-Index: AQHPhUQ1yhMbyym5ik2XjyNnVGTegZtsjBqAgAAKNgCAATvOAIAAFlSAgAAQ/gCAAA0ngIAAC4GAgAAiJICAAC4rgIAALTsAgACylwA= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 09:41:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.56.79] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_915F9918-5578-459C-A3D4-33443170F8AB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/zDK47hpTgAAwLibMm7fvH6soKTA Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 09:42:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_915F9918-5578-459C-A3D4-33443170F8AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, a quick re-focusing. My original email was triggered because of = frustrations with hacking on the datatracker code, which is kept in an = svn repo. As are most other IETF tools projects. We have trac = integration here, which is quite OK (although trac is getting dated.) So the "svn vs. git" subject should be read as "should we stick with git = for IETF tools development, or move to git." Someone offered to teach me = git-svn at the Toronto codesprint, and maybe that is the answer here for = me. A second topic is what tooling we provide *for IETF WGs* to use to = support their standards work. This list probably isn't the best fit for = that discussion. (Although I will say that we should just get a free org = account for the IETF from the friendly folks at github.) Lars --Apple-Mail=_915F9918-5578-459C-A3D4-33443170F8AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBU5rHYNZcnpRveo1xAQIaNwP9FRcUg9GXkUuZc1yxlqgaUw21uqhGjrNQ 4ywL3ACheAd2mDBveK7C6nFgA+8JGI7p+8qQr2RWCKTunZkRUcVboHl8TtV/5b4U JdpNztyiS3sGemrSYgPRIAtF/u24/myzlUjhXJDXpAzWNX/Hd4zUU+F4VFMAk7KE z/OXmkK3OWQ= =pSPb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_915F9918-5578-459C-A3D4-33443170F8AB-- From nobody Fri Jun 13 04:30:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8321B279B for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 04:30:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uca7OQvWNZ9x for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 04:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F90F1A04BA for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 04:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s5DBUY3N000502; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:30:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54893617.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.54.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 59C1F19BA; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:30:34 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:30:32 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 424351832.706183-29e68a14647021be8b69bf4571a4672b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <94B8DD22-FABE-477D-A853-91202621D82D@tzi.org> References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> To: "Eggert, Lars" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/lu6w5jCucX3kq2_yVktvfrezxHk Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 11:30:44 -0000 I=92ve been in these =93git vs svn=94 discussions for more than half a = decade now. Usually, I just lean back and wait for the course of time to do its = work; until then git-svn does its magic for me. The benefit for a large code project is much larger. This does not = necessarily motivate a change of platform, and there are more people who = need to be on board. So indeed, this should be a separate discussion. All WGs are different. So I don=92t think there is a point in trying a = central decision. WGs can already decide to move their work to github (or bitbucket, which = also is popular). The only decision would be whether there is an attempt to draw these = repos back to the IETF servers. If we make this attempt, I would recommend using gitlab as the = infrastructure for this, as this is a very dynamic open source project = that actively addresses functionality that people like about github. (gitlab also comes with its own lightweight issue tracker, wiki etc.; = this may be a bug or a feature.) I=92m not sure we know what we would use an IETF org at github for, and = I'm already afraid of the discussions we will have around the proper = process to run this github org (and how to map this process to github=92s = limited policy controls). Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Fri Jun 13 06:01:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8321B2824 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VeP4XnmPq6zM for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x231.google.com (mail-qc0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BB951B285D for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id r5so552809qcx.36 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:01:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TWvQVQUCpzQ+nR596y69x4GRoR8O7FoJ3FkD9BYY08A=; b=Njz+GVWwaShiOe4E3Tzcp4oX0Q1/JEHe3sdNC45rMICMAsF4tTwQv+6GM7aJbWKcrU mShatOLKi4AJIy5tQFUOzesHYPhY/phk11hP0NF4LUg8po8V/owNAqBmwk7Q+zerMSk8 hUWOUSbd05G1OY6yLTU42mvJepNF7cYB6AQX2qv8EKEXo5HKqx3bUwRG5KeIZiqJ55hn O9QcU3i9FeJx+tYC3zulGb3VWOgtMNtY5vnJnKr1BlWXpZ4VVhMG4hyi1HL4gksvfHD1 fHeFBLzMhGfCyyYTH1+7C7vFit0dKbbYFerwqYSmgBJyy9poqHkL8jhqCGssiwMQQYgV jDew== X-Received: by 10.140.36.17 with SMTP id o17mr3141071qgo.25.1402664487360; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from still.local (184-19-81-3.drr03.clbg.wv.frontiernet.net. [184.19.81.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id o14sm1068442qga.25.2014.06.13.06.01.26 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <539AF626.9030507@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 09:01:26 -0400 From: Tim Wicinski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:30.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/30.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2EDE14EE-A293-4121-92DD-E23B22888C26@netapp.com> <53999296.1070206@gmail.com> <5399A551.502@levkowetz.com> <474780A5-5A6B-492F-9E8E-5CB7242C33DE@tzi.org> <8C26ACA9-AC52-4777-9BBD-9E113F4317F3@vpnc.org> <94B8DD22-FABE-477D-A853-91202621D82D@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <94B8DD22-FABE-477D-A853-91202621D82D@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/49D3Gn5KzWRI0un0WTyStBNf618 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] svn vs. git X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:01:30 -0000 On 6/13/14, 7:30 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > ’ve been in these “git vs svn” discussions for more than half a decade now. > Usually, I just lean back and wait for the course of time to do its work; until then git-svn does its magic for me. > Having been involved in similar workplace discussions over the past several years (I refuse to date myself), I want to thank everyone for being so, well, professional. It may be something we assume, but I've not seen these discussions end well. > All WGs are different. So I don’t think there is a point in trying a central decision. > WGs can already decide to move their work to github (or bitbucket, which also is popular). > The only decision would be whether there is an attempt to draw these repos back to the IETF servers. > If we make this attempt, I would recommend using gitlab as the infrastructure for this, as this is a very dynamic open source project that actively addresses functionality that people like about github. > (gitlab also comes with its own lightweight issue tracker, wiki etc.; this may be a bug or a feature.) > > I’m not sure we know what we would use an IETF org at github for, and I'm already afraid of the discussions we will have around the proper process to run this github org (and how to map this process to github’s limited policy controls). I agree - different tools are more effective for different working groups, and different people. I would not want to force people to switch to github (or other options) but offer them options and explain the pros and cons of each one. tim (PS - a git debugging flowchart for new folks who find their repo is in a messy state: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2756938/Git%20debugging%20flowchart.png From nobody Wed Jun 18 12:44:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529DC1A02BF for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qNJKlk0Ebpj for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com (shell-too.nominum.com [64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54F721A0132 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C571B81CC for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-02.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9F2190061; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.40] (174.62.147.182) by CAS-02.WIN.NOMINUM.COM (192.168.1.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:44:26 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <9F324FA0-98FC-4D88-8429-C2E7A0B30046@amsl.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 15:44:26 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <189B328D-530E-4843-BCA2-750A7E71AEDE@nominum.com> References: <9F324FA0-98FC-4D88-8429-C2E7A0B30046@amsl.com> To: Stephanie McCammon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) X-Originating-IP: [174.62.147.182] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ovaE6aebgXUZpJYgLuYjmsCWltE Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] IETF 90 Pre-Preliminary Agenda - Round 2 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 19:44:28 -0000 Is there some way to get rid of the pop-up that asks me to save my own = copy of the agenda without saving my own copy of the agenda?= From nobody Wed Jun 18 14:40:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB781A0166 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 14:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C_IKkXAHYXOy for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 14:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F132D1A010F for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 14:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-173-57-107-66.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.107.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s5ILeNZW092431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2014 16:40:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host pool-173-57-107-66.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.107.66] claimed to be unnumerable.local Message-ID: <53A20747.3060109@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 16:40:23 -0500 From: Robert Sparks User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <9F324FA0-98FC-4D88-8429-C2E7A0B30046@amsl.com> <189B328D-530E-4843-BCA2-750A7E71AEDE@nominum.com> In-Reply-To: <189B328D-530E-4843-BCA2-750A7E71AEDE@nominum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/xzWDBWY4bubldrNN2AyJevL03gA Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] IETF 90 Pre-Preliminary Agenda - Round 2 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 21:40:56 -0000 I'll look into it. (This kind of thing is probably better captured using http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/newticket) RjS On 6/18/14, 2:44 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > Is there some way to get rid of the pop-up that asks me to save my own copy of the agenda without saving my own copy of the agenda? From nobody Fri Jun 20 01:23:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2481B2798 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ebj6qIusnuXb for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C36A1A05C0 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:23:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,512,1400050800"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="171290689" Received: from vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.35]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2014 01:23:50 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.106.77.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:23:50 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32; Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:23:49 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::8485:306a:80a6:ba8f%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0847.030; Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:23:49 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Tools Team Discussion Thread-Topic: session_request_developers@ietf.org undeliverable Thread-Index: AQHPjGD1n61jzSWH6EyZrJz7U9tOSA== Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:23:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8bedde$53bbll@mx12.netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.120.60.36] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F8BEA53D-ED7F-4D7A-9762-F9C55B7D51C4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/JPRYHwqH2giHZY2JPZVZwAn8H6E Subject: [Tools-discuss] session_request_developers@ietf.org undeliverable X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:23:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F8BEA53D-ED7F-4D7A-9762-F9C55B7D51C4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F4EAC4C8-34A5-4451-9831-C1CA224E1759" --Apple-Mail=_F4EAC4C8-34A5-4451-9831-C1CA224E1759 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We should probably send these messages from session-request@ietf.org? Also, the cancellation notification I replied to said: > A request to cancel a meeting session has just been submitted by . The empty submitter string is not helpful. Lars Begin forwarded message: > From: Mail Delivery System > Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) > Date: June 20, 2014 at 11:20:00 GMT+3 > To: >=20 > The following message to was = undeliverable. > The reason for the problem: > 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 = : Recipient address rejected: User = unknown in virtual alias table' > Reporting-MTA: dns; mx12.netapp.com >=20 > Final-Recipient: rfc822;session_request_developers@ietf.org > Action: failed > Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure) > Remote-MTA: dns; [4.31.198.44] > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 = : Recipient address rejected: User = unknown in virtual alias table' (delivery attempts: 0) >=20 > From: "Eggert, Lars" > Subject: Re: nwcrg - Cancelling a meeting request for IETF 90 > Date: June 20, 2014 at 11:19:40 GMT+3 > To: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool = > Cc: "session-request@ietf.org" , Brian = Adamson , "vfiroiu@acm.org" = >=20 >=20 > NWCRG chairs, did you cancel this? >=20 > Lars >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F4EAC4C8-34A5-4451-9831-C1CA224E1759 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii We = should probably send these messages from session-request@ietf.org?

Also, the cancellation notification I replied to = said:

A request to cancel a meeting = session has just been submitted by = .

The empty submitter string is not = helpful.

Lars

Begin = forwarded message:
From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON@mx12.netapp.co= m>
Subject: = Delivery Status = Notification (Failure)
Date: = June 20, 2014 at = 11:20:00 GMT+3
The following message to <session_request_develo= pers@ietf.org> was undeliverable.
The reason for the = problem:
5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 <session_request_develo= pers@ietf.org>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in = virtual alias table'
Reporting-MTA: dns; mx12.netapp.com

Final-Recipient= : rfc822;session_request_develo= pers@ietf.org
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0 (permanent = failure)
Remote-MTA: dns; [4.31.198.44]
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; = 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 <session_request_develo= pers@ietf.org>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in = virtual alias table' (delivery attempts: 0)

From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
Subject: Re: nwcrg - Cancelling a meeting = request for IETF 90
Date: June = 20, 2014 at 11:19:40 GMT+3
To: IETF = Meeting Session Request Tool <session_request_develo= pers@ietf.org>

NWCRG chairs, did you cancel = this?

Lars



= --Apple-Mail=_F4EAC4C8-34A5-4451-9831-C1CA224E1759-- --Apple-Mail=_F8BEA53D-ED7F-4D7A-9762-F9C55B7D51C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBU6Pvk9ZcnpRveo1xAQIzBwP/VWkrFXCaXrK0xQdOeYHcRP+u30TAxIUB W2b3+sL2cRVQXcBR/huBwF3SuKFG2cUpGKigOJAHX5EXN2RsrEf06hrUasdI+7Mq pRORlr1PU8Vn35+5CSF/uxyV6L1TusfoDE7Z9P+48ftp3nwYMoNAqRF7xjLLkbw7 71t3eUvDb+I= =lJVz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F8BEA53D-ED7F-4D7A-9762-F9C55B7D51C4-- From nobody Fri Jun 27 01:32:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3041B3185 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 01:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.258 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oi4IJGV2HnVI for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 01:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55AF1B3184 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 01:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9AF32E4A7 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:32:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 79ca_8eb3_75d6b6b5_8b50_4d69_a266_dd267794bf81; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:32:10 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E91BFF77 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:32:10 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <53AD2BFC.3020306@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:31:56 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/ei1jESdQbkfpZ7VkbU7o8twRI38 Subject: [Tools-discuss] We would like to show you a description here but the site won't allow us. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 08:32:13 -0000 Dear IETF Tools Experts, When I search for some rfc or draft, I often add 'tools' to increase the chance that I get the tools.ietf.org version, e.g. like https://duckduckgo.com/?q=draft-flanagan-nonascii+tools This is often successful, except that the entry for the tools version of the document says "We would like to show you a description here but the site won't allow us." I'm not sure why this happens, but I'm sure there must be a way to fix this, as useful summary information is shown for the same draft at other sites (e.g. datatracker). This doesn't occur on Google, but it occurs on Yahoo! search and Bing (in Japanese although my most preferred language is set to English, but essentially the same text), too, so it must be some kind of general convention. It would be great if this could be fixed. Regards, Martin. From nobody Fri Jun 27 02:00:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5C31B2B03 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 02:00:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rp6WcoXb1Zxf for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 02:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D6421B3179 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 02:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:55971 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1X0S1O-0008Mh-3G; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 02:00:38 -0700 Message-ID: <53AD32B4.208@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 11:00:36 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <53AD2BFC.3020306@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <53AD2BFC.3020306@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/b4EoRN9T1Js8C3oNDAvb4fQHT-c Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] We would like to show you a description here but the site won't allow us. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 09:00:41 -0000 Hi Martin, On 2014-06-27 10:31 "Martin J. Dürst" said the following: > Dear IETF Tools Experts, > > When I search for some rfc or draft, I often add 'tools' to increase the > chance that I get the tools.ietf.org version, e.g. like > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=draft-flanagan-nonascii+tools > > This is often successful, except that the entry for the tools version of > the document says > > "We would like to show you a description here but the site won't allow us." > > I'm not sure why this happens, but I'm sure there must be a way to fix > this, as useful summary information is shown for the same draft at other > sites (e.g. datatracker). > > This doesn't occur on Google, but it occurs on Yahoo! search and Bing > (in Japanese although my most preferred language is set to English, but > essentially the same text), too, so it must be some kind of general > convention. > > It would be great if this could be fixed. I've made some changes -- will see it it helps. Best regards, Henrik From nobody Sun Jun 29 23:17:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301CF1A0176 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2014 23:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KVYlNp-iMvHV for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2014 23:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531D81A003B for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2014 23:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC5132E572; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 15:17:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6733_70d8_c7ba7260_9cfd_4942_b402_891330a351d2; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 15:17:52 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1598DBF510; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 15:17:53 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <53B10101.6010003@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 15:17:37 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <53AD2BFC.3020306@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <53AD32B4.208@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <53AD32B4.208@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/CPW_x7wxxMzaUMiHvDCK0rbvbOk Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] We would like to show you a description here but the site won't allow us. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 06:17:55 -0000 Hello Henrik, On 2014/06/27 18:00, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Martin, > > On 2014-06-27 10:31 "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" said the following: >> Dear IETF Tools Experts, >> >> When I search for some rfc or draft, I often add 'tools' to increase t= he >> chance that I get the tools.ietf.org version, e.g. like >> >> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=3Ddraft-flanagan-nonascii+tools >> >> This is often successful, except that the entry for the tools version = of >> the document says >> >> "We would like to show you a description here but the site won't allow= us." >> >> I'm not sure why this happens, but I'm sure there must be a way to fix >> this, as useful summary information is shown for the same draft at oth= er >> sites (e.g. datatracker). >> >> This doesn't occur on Google, but it occurs on Yahoo! search and Bing >> (in Japanese although my most preferred language is set to English, bu= t >> essentially the same text), too, so it must be some kind of general >> convention. >> >> It would be great if this could be fixed. > > I've made some changes -- will see it it helps. Many thanks! I think it will take some time. Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Jun 30 00:53:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D891A002D for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qmJjaY5EWnNT for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx11.netapp.com (mx11.netapp.com [216.240.18.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBCE01A0016 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,573,1400050800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="131558518" Received: from vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.34]) by mx11-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 30 Jun 2014 00:53:38 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX08-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.41) by vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.106.77.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:53:38 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by hioexcmbx08-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:53:37 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::8485:306a:80a6:ba8f%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0847.030; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:53:37 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Tools Team Discussion Thread-Topic: rsync broken at ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHPlDhlJj4yN99flEi9+kEZPT+BgA== Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:53:36 +0000 Message-ID: <3C0E7F31-CA9D-4824-928B-919C831BA76B@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.56.79] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_07027394-CFAC-43ED-8DBB-C8C73EE2A9E5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/RaZe7M0Y2182JBIl3f48ibiU9Lg Subject: [Tools-discuss] rsync broken at ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:53:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_07027394-CFAC-43ED-8DBB-C8C73EE2A9E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, rsync as described on http://www.ietf.org/rsync-help.html doesn't seem = to work anymore. Cloudflare related? "rsync -v www.ietf.org::" just hangs. Lars PS: ietf-action BCC'ed --Apple-Mail=_07027394-CFAC-43ED-8DBB-C8C73EE2A9E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBU7EXgNZcnpRveo1xAQIudQQAn8pfEwyfqS3UL7FnGzo0HvziTdJSzKis lnHTCA5zp4/bf5B6+Pl5Uy9BHN10UrlXOTvTxH/ozE9d3kX/FzqFXbQP+o2jO0r8 dym2MnOX3sxUjsZBWE1rgfARwq6D8U715In3hII7wd9EORxZWTO8j1phAXV3gSZT 38FcS2o2Xis= =PNa6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_07027394-CFAC-43ED-8DBB-C8C73EE2A9E5-- From nobody Mon Jun 30 00:56:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093AC1A001C for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:56:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uLtyLKwZtZiq for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ops-netman.net (mailserver.ops-netman.net [208.76.12.119]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8882C1A0016 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.23.12.195] (unknown [64.191.222.109]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ops-netman.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C28FC88094C; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:56:16 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <53B11820.9020005@ops-netman.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 03:56:16 -0400 From: Chris Morrow User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" , Tools Team Discussion References: <3C0E7F31-CA9D-4824-928B-919C831BA76B@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <3C0E7F31-CA9D-4824-928B-919C831BA76B@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/aO08v5lqvmwyyBdk8_hMflYjtqI Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rsync broken at ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:56:22 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 104.20.1.85:873 SYN_SENT On 06/30/2014 03:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Hi, > > rsync as described on http://www.ietf.org/rsync-help.html doesn't > seem to work anymore. Cloudflare related? > > "rsync -v www.ietf.org::" just hangs. > > Lars > > PS: ietf-action BCC'ed > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlOxGCAACgkQr6swUqhDs2sbzwCdGJAzDRskHe210sRlQG33Lt02 jW0AniNvAi2SpsjjIP94tTSvJW4kHjy5 =rRMa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Mon Jun 30 05:25:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59681A02A5 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:25:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dANhfVrUjhpl for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A041A0295 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C311E5E9B for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c9a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YHzoSzELczax for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.14] (unknown [97.101.134.137]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BA2BE1E5E99 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:24:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Larson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2DA7FA6B-606B-4F8D-AEFC-B4F99544EE99@amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 08:25:02 -0400 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/obiJzydqmcedZKfL78pY704kOnY Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rsync broken at ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:25:04 -0000 Greetings! This is a side-effect of deploying the CDN in front of www.ietf.org. = That particular subdomain will no longer work for protocols apart from = HTTP and HTTPS. The existing rsync modules still work properly on ietf.org, = ftp.ietf.org, or rsync.ietf.org. We will be getting an announcement out shortly, and updating the web = pages as appropriate. Matt ------------------------------------------- Matthew Larson, Asst. IT Director Association Management Solutions Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 http://www.amsl.com