From nobody Tue Dec 1 08:20:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C60A1ACDBC for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 08:20:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tdoUVMhLQMrf for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 08:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CDFC01ACDCA for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 08:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8179 invoked by uid 0); 1 Dec 2015 16:19:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2015 16:19:33 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id oGKP1r00e2SSUrH01GKSzz; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 09:19:32 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=Zc6OaKlA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=wUQvQvOEmiQA:10 a=E4gvYGOk06BlUX7DnkIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To; bh=SrxSMkxTVWij2E3hF+Oe4KkLArIB2Gk55tKB40rOqlA=; b=Dq4kTfcHhQpV8/mahIKXEyhcQta0624FHyNzKhESR/lNooPHfFYmATVh2iiEBqA91ZgCUpD3xtDd3yOIjcvG8H+9Z9y+tiIIsq5FkvHaqR4y70uo3/I6nIt6GEsBXplp; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:46072 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1a3neG-0004Yn-HS; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 09:19:24 -0700 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:19:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: Christian Hopps , Alia Atlas Subject: [Tools-discuss] Customize Workflow for WGs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 16:20:21 -0000 Hi, I'm not sure who has the answer for this one: Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workflow? If not, what is the process to get new states added? Thank you, Lou From nobody Tue Dec 1 09:18:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E101ACF55 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:18:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bg80CrnM3a8d for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 559F61ACF1B for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 78-68-120-205-no105.tbcn.telia.com ([78.68.120.205]:53094 helo=[192.168.1.120]) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a3oZ3-0004dR-DZ; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 09:18:05 -0800 Message-ID: <565DD64A.7000100@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 18:18:02 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TP9BEAVVPgG6mtp86iEhGB8wUAD95UUm7" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 78.68.120.205 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: lberger@labn.net, tools-discuss@ietf.org, chopps@chopps.org, akatlas@juniper.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) Archived-At: Cc: Christian Hopps , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Customize Workflow for WGs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:18:08 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TP9BEAVVPgG6mtp86iEhGB8wUAD95UUm7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, On 2015-12-01, 17:19 Lou Berger said the following: > Hi, > I'm not sure who has the answer for this one: >=20 > Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workflow? Not today. =20 > If not, what is the process to get new states added? There is no established process, and that is a definitive problem. Rober= t and I can easily add a state, but we don't know who can tell us to do so,= and we don't know what discussions have to happen, and where, and who mak= es the call. Best regards, Henrik --TP9BEAVVPgG6mtp86iEhGB8wUAD95UUm7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWXdZLAAoJEE6bV0uPuxcaYgQQALpO5/8gGtMBXFxry7Yf5mIo Z/AoeWc0zoxDNlVhkSR2H5PJFb/Q8L55BOXx6a2qo0dmT30A6obo8RhH0QwcqFw3 FejEivKGNFaI4gjBipEwErHLhUrQ691weOZU4GrTymJDx+Oiu4q4avt0LymXVRG1 IjHMktRgraa6u5r5J3CIOG2J9vSqckCsRiSS7eLl9K3tHzOauBDJSIq4KERLsLZX CGU3lrWlPX3dw9Xj2MnnF8rftum9sB3I7x01D74YAmK2iWtKO17UO18zdgEjW6tr mVm2rReUqNVcQQfFg71g+a+a35Be1GK8yrAnvW9FAgP0OLZdCFtN0qykFiDsTolH EskVB2H0LSmfKDQ/cq1FByCfEe53zj/u1hchs36Q6zZvAfKK0Mh5vk5Vccok/2qh XmHV6NdvVFJSjyoW7qhjwBDJ1EX+Q/7hf/IfN2sTnHf6Pn9o8DMjdqSYH1vmR6zE W/tCS2V36PAXrgT6KldvPG//7bDnsl3WWMqJNS6AGFYjpYiOSAChFsUJP0bDFX6N t28u4g/Iudely+GHiei8JJI1a3atk2EtG35Wm1ysYW/HHOjyvOCQIrMoPC71FpJ6 tgjm40FBtWYeWKJi9arirRlDBmlCI5b+HK5u3ROCWZcZQ67GzISxQX15NcMxFAMm C2GcaDXqzDlWj32xd51Z =qZ6B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TP9BEAVVPgG6mtp86iEhGB8wUAD95UUm7-- From nobody Tue Dec 1 09:25:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19001AD1A3 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:25:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T0LWgHe0lc_e for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B04EA1AD36B for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15851 invoked by uid 0); 1 Dec 2015 17:25:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw3) (10.0.90.84) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2015 17:25:50 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id oQRY1r00h2SSUrH01QRbgK; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:25:48 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=Caqbutbl c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=N659UExz7-8A:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=wUQvQvOEmiQA:10 a=CX_YPbqPtgN0UjKhABIA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:Cc:References:To:Subject; bh=1L1xzm/aBXbhd9I9JbHfcInL4dkIB5fGgNGoy8WrKYg=; b=yQb468yZVEivm3fTCoWTGoK6t5Jh5I2oFfKKzgbsEDmt0WUBBVrs4gFHFirkbc+pJ7Y50UEgm9VAl/yymIsv1D7MiYeTC0rUBwu03sMiA13+yIowIfwW+hp3h1fKwwlN; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:33240 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1a3ogI-0000qW-QE; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:25:34 -0700 To: Henrik Levkowetz , Alia Atlas References: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> <565DD64A.7000100@levkowetz.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <565DD807.1010707@labn.net> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:25:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <565DD64A.7000100@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: Christian Hopps , tools-discuss@ietf.org, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Customize Workflow for WGs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:25:56 -0000 Hi Henrik, Thank you for the information. Alia, (RTG ADs) How do you want to handle this? Discuss within the IESG? (set precedent) and approve adding of new states for RTG WGs? The two new states I heard about were: - Awaiting implementation (report) - (Pre WG adoption|Pre WG LC) IPR Poll Thanks, Lou On 12/1/2015 12:18 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Lou, > > On 2015-12-01, 17:19 Lou Berger said the following: >> Hi, >> I'm not sure who has the answer for this one: >> >> Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workflow? > Not today. > >> If not, what is the process to get new states added? > There is no established process, and that is a definitive problem. Robert > and I can easily add a state, but we don't know who can tell us to do so, > and we don't know what discussions have to happen, and where, and who makes > the call. > > > Best regards, > > Henrik > > From nobody Tue Dec 1 10:20:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A851D1AC3B1 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:20:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HE_LN4ro9aAE for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF1251A1A04 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 78-68-120-205-no105.tbcn.telia.com ([78.68.120.205]:59312 helo=[192.168.1.120]) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a3pXF-0005hA-Qf; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:20:18 -0800 Message-ID: <565DE4DE.2050006@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:20:14 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lou Berger , Alia Atlas References: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> <565DD64A.7000100@levkowetz.com> <565DD807.1010707@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <565DD807.1010707@labn.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9TeuFPnnt4dh9f97JBG6dvJ33d2asixle" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 78.68.120.205 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: lberger@labn.net, akatlas@juniper.net, chopps@chopps.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) Resent-To: rtg-ads@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151201182021.AF1251A1A04@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:20:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: henrik@levkowetz.com Archived-At: Cc: Christian Hopps , tools-discuss@ietf.org, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Customize Workflow for WGs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 18:20:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9TeuFPnnt4dh9f97JBG6dvJ33d2asixle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, Some comments inline, for what they are worth: On 2015-12-01, 18:25 Lou Berger said the following: > Hi Henrik, > Thank you for the information. >=20 > Alia, (RTG ADs) > How do you want to handle this? Discuss within the IESG? (set > precedent) and approve adding of new states for RTG WGs? There should probably also be discussion on the wgchairs list. That's where suggested new states most often appear. There is some precedent in the wgchairs being a venue for these discussions, but there's no-one who seems to be in a position to declare consensus there. > The two new states I heard about were: So WG document have _states_, and they have _tags_. A document can not be in more than one WG state at a time, but it can have multiple tags, irrespective of the state. > - Awaiting implementation (report) This looks to me very much as a tag, as it's a condition which can be set, and be true, at any point from the time a document becomes a WG draft until it's an RFC. I'd recommend not making this a state, but making it a tag. I think the need is clear and well expressed. > - (Pre WG adoption|Pre WG LC) IPR Poll =46rom the label, I'd say this one could be either a state or a tag; depending on how people want to use it. Making it a state (or rather, two states) looks like a closer fit for this one than for the previous one. However, the label itself is very cumbersome; something that also would be eased by going for two states. Best regards, Henrik > Thanks, > Lou >=20 > On 12/1/2015 12:18 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi Lou, >> >> On 2015-12-01, 17:19 Lou Berger said the following: >>> Hi, >>> I'm not sure who has the answer for this one: >>> >>> Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workflow= ? >> Not today. >> =20 >>> If not, what is the process to get new states added? >> There is no established process, and that is a definitive problem. Ro= bert >> and I can easily add a state, but we don't know who can tell us to do = so, >> and we don't know what discussions have to happen, and where, and who = makes >> the call. >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Henrik >> >> >=20 >=20 --9TeuFPnnt4dh9f97JBG6dvJ33d2asixle Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWXeTeAAoJEE6bV0uPuxca1GEQAIVi+u/RPe6f9SpOkF6mt2F4 4T8HYGse902m3l80S4ljUcAR1KYV4sOLZyl6NTR/7mbCmH1hqZMwCV5c8yVf4zz1 e5OC6ayN55zeBU7e4ylic7fYr+uigI+ROhPyRj7H2XWm1CVBBsQrKqadDbEeDb14 FO0sNeLJT+u9dYTBF9jg443L93LkXGxHrAvZP/NGFmd4YPuNXGgetKp23b6vAU2p sGlry9tnPqH0uRSmjiOH6iOTMXhRMLdUWxz9/kU6C43vHg1oHL8wxZRX+wz7qPWN DqJO9DWoN8QqvnjcL1lHnvX2nF14uFbOKEj0TCTvf3FzpWSDJjKqRvjTM4qTHN8L D2RzghBPaGKg/DhUtmy4T4pbiYI5gljvFb9yfVzRI4RFnM4gI+PBuQFArQZW0c1O sc203fq5h9wRQY6CkFflhdiVetWUkitZk4x//kyrxK9gz/ChvFDnXSpv0Sx9BCwJ 6cIo1ArpZmC6YGOQ3GJUfZ3x3tX6fhNnIztWjn3yn43jEy68jsF12d6ALeBNUbh8 fyzvDBoV7z7C4ZQjJpqf5HxTyO5cyhg5KWvYzLpAU1yYbYJa/uxE5lKwUwn/GfwW loRG9ygHS2rLuSLOVuRzgt52e/muhgTnUEdVDMLsQXRDWt6GEtFV9oEWKzOBPwSN EMPZEbZZknlx7D6oO0iF =/EYv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9TeuFPnnt4dh9f97JBG6dvJ33d2asixle-- From nobody Tue Dec 1 10:22:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F25F1B2DDD for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:06:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jtmUk0dk-dPg for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22b.google.com (mail-oi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F90D1A1A4C for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by oige206 with SMTP id e206so8947917oig.2 for ; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:06:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=q5yMWxKBfqX9e2T4jeIjk/qasqT3bmDZzfCB5ieJyss=; b=sKdTLzDBFrU0c7INjQ1e5HFw+uIIhatVQ1TpWhdEW9czzITJywToeHV0DPXry4udVb zrmtYWPckWriKEZwhGYeuUkrk4Ll7gKC67WYa+oE2v0RTuUd7RKTlRZ4f7RpRQjb9v45 Od/0ct/iJG+XghoPukq9F2jfzIQ11j4JzTftA1MHWBD81n2pJiysSmfQzItIuSh3h4vT XlU+47eC1fr9aJV6SFZNvhwgJ/Oc/G/1NvdLOoGfUtt86iiEjco4F3vMQ4+2XSIyzon9 Sppiw5yZTrtQcMI6XNX3kEJdd800XmAQLvfQ7QnU/FoeexFeG/o/4D5b4k92asFunMme ct/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.86.202 with SMTP id k193mr48795203oib.115.1448993182028; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.177.103 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:06:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <565DD807.1010707@labn.net> References: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> <565DD64A.7000100@levkowetz.com> <565DD807.1010707@labn.net> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 13:06:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Lou Berger Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113adad4e59d030525da0359 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:22:40 -0800 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , Kathleen Moriarty , Alia Atlas , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" , Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Customize Workflow for WGs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 18:06:24 -0000 --001a113adad4e59d030525da0359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sounds like a good topic for the IESG informal. I'll take that on. On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Henrik, > Thank you for the information. > > Alia, (RTG ADs) > How do you want to handle this? Discuss within the IESG? (set > precedent) and approve adding of new states for RTG WGs? > > The two new states I heard about were: > - Awaiting implementation (report) > - (Pre WG adoption|Pre WG LC) IPR Poll > > Thanks, > Lou > > On 12/1/2015 12:18 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Hi Lou, > > > > On 2015-12-01, 17:19 Lou Berger said the following: > >> Hi, > >> I'm not sure who has the answer for this one: > >> > >> Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workflow? > > Not today. > > > >> If not, what is the process to get new states added? > > There is no established process, and that is a definitive problem. > Robert > > and I can easily add a state, but we don't know who can tell us to do so, > > and we don't know what discussions have to happen, and where, and who > makes > > the call. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Henrik > > > > > > > --001a113adad4e59d030525da0359 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds like a good topic for the IESG informal.

I'll take that on.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Lou Berger <lber= ger@labn.net> wrote:
Hi Hen= rik,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thank you for the information.

Alia, (RTG ADs)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 How do you want to handle this?=C2=A0 Discuss within the IESG= ?=C2=A0 (set
precedent) and approve adding of new states for RTG WGs?

The two new states I heard about were:
- Awaiting implementation (report)
- (Pre WG adoption|Pre WG LC) IPR Poll

Thanks,
Lou

On 12/1/2015 12:18 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> Hi Lou,
>
> On 2015-12-01, 17:19 Lou Berger said the following:
>> Hi,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm not sure who has the answer for this on= e:
>>
>> Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workf= low?
> Not today.
>
>> If not, what is the process to get new states added?
> There is no established process, and that is a definitive problem.=C2= =A0 Robert
> and I can easily add a state, but we don't know who can tell us to= do so,
> and we don't know what discussions have to happen, and where, and = who makes
> the call.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Henrik
>
>



--001a113adad4e59d030525da0359-- From nobody Tue Dec 1 11:26:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A551A1AA3 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:26:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4G0-C60L8Qfq for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 071A61A1A9C for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacej9 with SMTP id ej9so14248294pac.2 for ; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 11:26:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mjkQv5D2bUlSHDbTtsrI9bAeDN0Vh8JTlFmVnJkHQSs=; b=Drm5GQcSxsv2kV9UnXP54+Xgz7r/tPuj+AcxLlHHozz8wyaIF3zD2kNwcbHcyG0cgZ tWf19F40bVMx25PSoXLwe0NGPHJ0tB6QvRs4muFA8h69cRFYmJzk9LJHMxezTZHgffqN zZPfqUBraURkrF+z/qLl2P0Y17P4L41iiBq/dVG1JjecaywxFqAAg4t1nVskAsrswe/Y vkvsQG8wBmLBNh2XF64rIwzPgKse9XKFFGuWilYRjOxfX3n6dOj36qcrHZcSVMGA242s NdVNX8Fe8tm4MBJNVYJ1jiNxzOpTyaJ3rcattxlzRTPBOxFp/D/57Pv2IPt+vJa9yin9 21oA== X-Received: by 10.66.121.110 with SMTP id lj14mr102452718pab.61.1448998001737; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 11:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:633a:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:633a:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ry1sm23092800pab.30.2015.12.01.11.26.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 01 Dec 2015 11:26:40 -0800 (PST) To: Henrik Levkowetz , Lou Berger , Alia Atlas References: <565DC887.6020102@labn.net> <565DD64A.7000100@levkowetz.com> <565DD807.1010707@labn.net> <565DE4DE.2050006@levkowetz.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <565DF472.6000001@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 08:26:42 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <565DE4DE.2050006@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Christian Hopps , tools-discuss@ietf.org, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Customize Workflow for WGs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:43 -0000 So, how about adding a state like "WG Hold" with a user-settable tag? (It needs to be a state that allows transition from/to any other WG state.) That way you wouldn't need a discussion each time a new need comes up. Regards Brian On 02/12/2015 07:20, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Some comments inline, for what they are worth: > > On 2015-12-01, 18:25 Lou Berger said the following: >> Hi Henrik, >> Thank you for the information. >> >> Alia, (RTG ADs) >> How do you want to handle this? Discuss within the IESG? (set >> precedent) and approve adding of new states for RTG WGs? > > There should probably also be discussion on the wgchairs list. That's > where suggested new states most often appear. There is some precedent > in the wgchairs being a venue for these discussions, but there's no-one > who seems to be in a position to declare consensus there. > >> The two new states I heard about were: > > So WG document have _states_, and they have _tags_. A document can > not be in more than one WG state at a time, but it can have multiple > tags, irrespective of the state. > >> - Awaiting implementation (report) > > This looks to me very much as a tag, as it's a condition which can > be set, and be true, at any point from the time a document becomes > a WG draft until it's an RFC. I'd recommend not making this a state, > but making it a tag. I think the need is clear and well expressed. > >> - (Pre WG adoption|Pre WG LC) IPR Poll > > From the label, I'd say this one could be either a state or a tag; > depending on how people want to use it. Making it a state (or rather, > two states) looks like a closer fit for this one than for the previous > one. However, the label itself is very cumbersome; something that > also would be eased by going for two states. > > > Best regards, > > Henrik > > > >> Thanks, >> Lou >> >> On 12/1/2015 12:18 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> Hi Lou, >>> >>> On 2015-12-01, 17:19 Lou Berger said the following: >>>> Hi, >>>> I'm not sure who has the answer for this one: >>>> >>>> Is it possible to add WG specific states to the data tracker workflow? >>> Not today. >>> >>>> If not, what is the process to get new states added? >>> There is no established process, and that is a definitive problem. Robert >>> and I can easily add a state, but we don't know who can tell us to do so, >>> and we don't know what discussions have to happen, and where, and who makes >>> the call. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Henrik >>> >>> >> >> > > > From nobody Thu Dec 3 01:23:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783001A1A69 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 01:23:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id crXT04nRlp_r for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 01:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D6541A1A5F for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 01:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mfilter44-d.gandi.net (mfilter44-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.175]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B47A80CB; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:23:19 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter44-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter44-d.gandi.net (mfilter44-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MAbfrnniK17j; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:23:17 +0100 (CET) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.254.229 Received: from nar.local (p5DC7FEE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.254.229]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C7C4A8151; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:23:17 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <56600A03.8030602@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2015 10:23:15 +0100 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] `pip install xml2rfc` rebuilds lxml in spite of an existing OS lxml X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:23:22 -0000 My python-fu is weak. Why is `pip install xml2rfc` building a new lxml when the system lxml (2.3.2) should be good enough (>= 2.2.8)? https://travis-ci.org/core-wg/yang-cbor Grüße, Carsten From nobody Tue Dec 8 02:21:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9372C1ACD03 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 02:21:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1si6D_xY00X7 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 02:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ukmta4.baesystems.com (ukmta4.baesystems.com [20.133.40.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 049811ACD02 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 02:21:46 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,399,1444690800"; d="scan'208";a="19523562" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasodc005.greenlnk.net) ([10.108.52.29]) by ukmta4.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2015 10:21:45 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,399,1444690800"; d="scan'208";a="126507440" Received: from glkxh0001v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.32]) by baemasodc005.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2015 10:21:46 +0000 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.2]) by GLKXH0001V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:21:35 +0000 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Tools Team Discussion Thread-Topic: Old draft text version Thread-Index: AdExojvQmy1R1SYuT4+CZykK+Ehdeg== Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:21:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 10:21:48 -0000 SSB3YW50IGFuIG9sZCBjb3B5IG9mIGEgZHJhZnQuIEknbSB1c2luZyB0aGUgZXhhbXBsZSBJIGhh dmUgdHJpZWQsIEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBjaGVja2VkIGhvdyB3aWRlc3ByZWFkIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGlz IChvciBpc24ndCkuDQoNCkkgd2FudCBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW1hbmV0LW9sc3J2Mi1tdWx0aXRvcG9s b2d5LTA1LiBJIGdldCBhcyBmYXIgYXMgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2Mv ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tYW5ldC1vbHNydjItbXVsdGl0b3BvbG9neS8wNS8gd2l0aG91dCBwcm9ibGVt LiBCdXQgSSBjbGljayB0aGUgcGxhaW4gdGV4dCBidXR0b24gYW5kIGl0IHRha2VzIG1lIHRvIGh0 dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tYW5ldC1vbHNydjItbXVsdGl0b3BvbG9n eS0wNy50eHQgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pZC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLW1h bmV0LW9sc3J2Mi1tdWx0aXRvcG9sb2d5LTA1LnR4dCBJIGNhbiBlbnRlciB0aGUgbGF0dGVyIGRp cmVjdGx5LCBleGNlcHQgaXQgcmVkaXJlY3RzIHRvIHRoZSBmb3JtZXIgKHdoaWNoIEkgdGhpbmsg aXMgd2hhdCB0aGUgYnV0dG9uIGRvZXMpLg0KDQpUaGUgUERGIHdvcmtzLiBBbmQgaWYgSSBnbyB0 byB0aGUgSFRNTCBwYWdlLCB0aGVuIHNlbGVjdCB0ZXh0IGZyb20gdGhhdCB0aGVuIEkgZ2V0IHRv IGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tYW5ldC1vbHNydjItbXVsdGl0 b3BvbG9neS0wNS50eHQgd2hpY2ggZG9lcyB3b3JrDQoNCioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqClRoaXMgZW1haWwg YW5kIGFueSBhdHRhY2htZW50cyBhcmUgY29uZmlkZW50aWFsIHRvIHRoZSBpbnRlbmRlZApyZWNp cGllbnQgYW5kIG1heSBhbHNvIGJlIHByaXZpbGVnZWQuIElmIHlvdSBhcmUgbm90IHRoZSBpbnRl bmRlZApyZWNpcGllbnQgcGxlYXNlIGRlbGV0ZSBpdCBmcm9tIHlvdXIgc3lzdGVtIGFuZCBub3Rp ZnkgdGhlIHNlbmRlci4KWW91IHNob3VsZCBub3QgY29weSBpdCBvciB1c2UgaXQgZm9yIGFueSBw dXJwb3NlIG5vciBkaXNjbG9zZSBvcgpkaXN0cmlidXRlIGl0cyBjb250ZW50cyB0byBhbnkgb3Ro ZXIgcGVyc29uLgoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKgo= From nobody Tue Dec 8 10:52:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF58C1A1B29 for ; 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([2406:e007:7085:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p6sm6304061pfi.20.2015.12.08.10.52.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 Dec 2015 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , Tools Team Discussion References: From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566726F8.2070509@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:52:40 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 18:52:46 -0000 On 08/12/2015 23:21, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: > I want an old copy of a draft. I'm using the example I have tried, I haven't checked how widespread the problem is (or isn't). > > I want draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05. I get as far as https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology/05/ without problem. But I click the plain text button and it takes me to http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-07.txt rather than http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05.txt I can enter the latter directly, except it redirects to the former (which I think is what the button does). That is intentional. Old drafts are obsolete, not intended to be referred to, etc. They need to be archived for sub poena purposes, but that is a hidden archive. > > The PDF works. I think that is unintentional. > And if I go to the HTML page, then select text from that then I get to https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05.txt which does work Sure. That is an unofficial archive at the volunteer-supported tools site. I use it on occasion too. But it's best effort. Brian From nobody Wed Dec 9 03:56:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD70F1A89C5 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 03:56:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Af8e9Ru_xrF for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 03:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ukmta4.baesystems.com (ukmta4.baesystems.com [20.133.40.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0B961A89AF for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 03:56:12 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,403,1444690800"; d="scan'208";a="19717421" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasodc005.greenlnk.net) ([10.108.52.29]) by ukmta4.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 09 Dec 2015 11:56:03 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,403,1444690800"; d="scan'208";a="126694635" Received: from glkxh0002v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.33]) by baemasodc005.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 09 Dec 2015 11:56:03 +0000 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.210]) by GLKXH0002V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:56:03 +0000 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Brian E Carpenter , Tools Team Discussion Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version Thread-Index: AdExojvQmy1R1SYuT4+CZykK+EhdegAR2EUAACOMgfA= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:56:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <566726F8.2070509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <566726F8.2070509@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:56:15 -0000 SXQncyBjb25mdXNpbmcuIElmIHRoZXJlJ3MgYSBwYWdlIGRlZGljYXRlZCB0byBhIHZlcnNpb24g b2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0LCBhbmQgdGhhdCBwYWdlIGhhcyBidXR0b25zIGZvciB0ZXh0LCBwZGYgdGhl biBJIGV4cGVjdCB0aG9zZSB0byBnaXZlIG1lIHRoZSB2ZXJzaW9uIEknbSBvbiB0aGUgcGFnZSBm b3IuIFRoZXJlJ3MgYWxyZWFkeSBhIGxpbmsgdG8gdGhlIGxhdGVzdCB2ZXJzaW9uIHBhZ2UuIElm IHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIGhpZGUgdGhlIGRyYWZ0LCB0aGVuIGdyZXktb3V0IHRoZSBidXR0b25zLCBu b3QgbWFrZSB0aGVtIGRvIHRoZSB3cm9uZyB0aGluZy4gQW5kIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgbm90IG9uZSBk b2VzIG9uZSB0aGluZywgdGhlIG90aGVyIGRvZXMgYW5vdGhlciAoYW5kIHRoZSBIVE1MIGRvZXMg 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VGhpcyBlbWFpbCBhbmQgYW55IGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzIGFyZSBjb25maWRlbnRpYWwgdG8gdGhlIGlu dGVuZGVkCnJlY2lwaWVudCBhbmQgbWF5IGFsc28gYmUgcHJpdmlsZWdlZC4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBu b3QgdGhlIGludGVuZGVkCnJlY2lwaWVudCBwbGVhc2UgZGVsZXRlIGl0IGZyb20geW91ciBzeXN0 ZW0gYW5kIG5vdGlmeSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyLgpZb3Ugc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBjb3B5IGl0IG9yIHVzZSBp dCBmb3IgYW55IHB1cnBvc2Ugbm9yIGRpc2Nsb3NlIG9yCmRpc3RyaWJ1dGUgaXRzIGNvbnRlbnRz IHRvIGFueSBvdGhlciBwZXJzb24uCioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqCg== From nobody Wed Dec 9 05:22:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DD11A9135 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 05:22:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sBHOof-ePuk9 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 05:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ADDE1A912C for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 05:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.158] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M34eJ-1aQO4p3pfb-00swmd; Wed, 09 Dec 2015 14:22:36 +0100 To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , Brian E Carpenter , Tools Team Discussion References: <566726F8.2070509@gmail.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <56682B1E.3010704@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 14:22:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:HNHJl4vzpfAiNKOlejl4HVfVphFhbLqIkyBF5aR0cOSuBLcpZFf SAbrKcQzMHVmbPm1peR70K97rTkljy41V6niXC9YTsFR2/B4u+EOukUry8gNU29YgyumhOv L1dm8ZZ02YKwTdlxeZctwMJvoJJ5qfH9mqhTrnYvR/3a7msjXW4Qv1+MKcJNHCooHBkCMnJ VK7Suc7JRhTQ5te31pzEA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:vlhIs2awtdc=:Ydty4q+l2l6ikJJ9kg+XOP RoGSrORfN/bJL9kx7Pam3HzXTADtzRADW3cAJTEmpO26NkEmWGOatxsAGo2NZgqu4Gfy9B1iQ I08Ay/HlC1PCV8PcAYIW9d+Xjt+BMOjlYROnLm+dtXcvJRY9FEQ5um/S2EJkRrCB3XZx3u6Bt YBHV7/2C3h2fOKxK7sjJVJtLSjF59BSEzPliPD/Q5chkeDYMhGVAkoDu1UGi/6UFTeVSGjZaY DJKyjVPLFIQ1hRZOtatdRCeG7aeJ+ytfDIFAQChrleWkq8vSeyhK/oHrOetv6Lzzaj7JSYEtj qnDzAYnZ6SgTx0I9K5kNNv4b+wzu8u3SzOkJuB7j7s1m/jm7/izGQiXak6vybRG+CLYJvpJvI RE4/zu0OD1iB872KY2/20uTnTlbIUUZqVSv/G1Zb0KhDNY13KbUfFzZaIf3JcNs0EZ/GIEbNn FO5VM4vsJTG2LiHpBOqJ+rA05evAc+3O4Vm18TFEl9K7AXytWO1Tr/pvhwyOwfIcfkSzJ2Fia O4UbMiTaVpSGCFoGv3vRQt0aV6FDMcfxgEKNUnj00YpiB2LKP/v5jhak4VJa30wrI0PxamOmt 2P0dGCEYy/tMtfvr3tH+9IvfPpLZTwbtfbt5SkasO6rfbeFQZlHy2wojCWWiIemE0XGiiS4lg WNjTNHbQyBpspxufqOkPlgjvLCGSuM1t5Yx1bYQ0G7TZtHpT4K5igI9ikdAUOxc94xLByDEkn n2hsSXxHoTfOTQjg77tjvFa+xsSaLm0JKkMgkegckBJXqCCI+t5PVBVfa6QTdak9IG9gqoFUa knMQ9Ab Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 13:22:48 -0000 On 2015-12-09 12:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: > It's confusing. If there's a page dedicated to a version of the draft, and that page has buttons for text, pdf then I expect those to give me the version I'm on the page for. There's already a link to the latest version page. If you want to hide the draft, then grey-out the buttons, not make them do the wrong thing. And especially not one does one thing, the other does another (and the HTML does a third, but that's useful). +1 > ... Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Dec 9 07:40:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3721B2D83 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:40:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ngKv2QbxV-1I for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A8361B2D82 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.108]) by resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id rTgP1r0072LrikM01Tgj7N; Wed, 09 Dec 2015 15:40:43 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id rTgi1r00K1nMCLR01TgijG; Wed, 09 Dec 2015 15:40:43 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tB9Fef0K008061; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:40:41 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tB9Fef4R008058; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:40:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <566726F8.2070509@gmail.com> (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 10:40:41 -0500 Message-ID: <87zixj7hqe.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1449675643; bh=DsexO+NfhCzcW01BFrUaN6y0XGWdKJN0szYdJF6x3HY=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=ROWtw3KZG6v2N4T63eX/eFCq3EOwmmGa01js8sloLGK0aotL2VnUCN8SPOELnhojB 2R90/rlOCFmS8Ab/eAtQEQy8Wg5aDDJr4dh1/74VMUDfhDoZw0Ev8vvw9RkUnd6IBh mavD+hIQ6NLwTE7NKqNXxt953Y+rdqxEVXlK2dxA0zJYumURTzb1iSQnA9cUd/sNY7 ROj4FoIrwgU1HToHUoJckmtizPIOybsEgtAotzvS+3LI6/lZ3LH1FB3jkitT0ES0rP Bu+pPfiBPtQWdo0CLDEY/eChfnDhSALMLNKA5Fc+z1XKDxgNwbt1al6g/yQcQs5y8l lZxzpgMJP9lSA== Archived-At: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 15:40:45 -0000 Brian E Carpenter writes: > That is intentional. Old drafts are obsolete, not intended to be > referred to, etc. They need to be archived for sub poena purposes, > but that is a hidden archive. I've heard that parroted over and over and over, and it's never made any sense to me, to the point that I've never understood why anyone would say it. There are *many* reasons that one might need to refer to an old draft, and the old drafts need to be accessible. One that came up in particular is that vendors sometimes implement to a draft (because the RFC isn't done) and you need to know the specification for what they're doing. And I wrote an RFC that needed to refer to that obsolete draft... (Indeed, I meticulously download the current drafts every night, and make sure that obsoleted drafts are never deleted from the download directory, so I've got a complete archive and won't be buggered if somebody tries to enforce this silly statement.) Dale From nobody Wed Dec 9 11:15:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33341A0369 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:15:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7SP2yfIHKyiv for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com (mail-pf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89D281A0370 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by pfnn128 with SMTP id n128so34452844pfn.0 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:15:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2CAVNp5h5VZa6++QoJr8kkv21CqWuWkNzs+nnJLSlr0=; b=mAscvVwqtJ34lTsfz0q/2n5w5xhwsu6jo6MjxkEggRU6Rey5NO9Dytpix/ojus0ZoG caOx+JSYSS6Lp44om1Fc0a1of+8WtYHbdMEpHNDSKCwsgupIfVOfXCqmNa3zoXhtDb7e xmakhgIWVcPLNN480/sPbwWfoGg8AnqNDpjds7l437vYXZp7R4mqpiCs/04EEg3X39fU KIkWFjd7y60UeW0oY5H3l/ifsfSLeU1LivQxVqZiG3Joj4VWhjVOdHfCjAj0MWvEgp9o I2OXLADJ5aa4SKFvmHZuI0rGUPusIX0M6vgnuphC7FUkrVRoVnyne5ybtWzoM4nzGSYN YuOw== X-Received: by 10.98.87.138 with SMTP id i10mr564495pfj.69.1449688540219; Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6917:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6917:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v2sm13320380pfi.44.2015.12.09.11.15.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:15:39 -0800 (PST) To: "Dale R. Worley" References: <87zixj7hqe.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56687DE1.3050800@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:15:45 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87zixj7hqe.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 19:15:46 -0000 On 10/12/2015 04:40, Dale R. Worley wrote: > Brian E Carpenter writes: >> That is intentional. Old drafts are obsolete, not intended to be >> referred to, etc. They need to be archived for sub poena purposes, >> but that is a hidden archive. > > I've heard that parroted over and over and over, and it's never made any > sense to me, to the point that I've never understood why anyone would > say it. Because it's in the rules (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-2.2). I'm not saying it's right, but that's how RFC 2026 has always been interpreted. I'd expect the official IETF web site to follow the rules. It's an inconsistency that the tracker points to the obsolete pdf and htmlized versions as it does. Rules can be changed, but that's a different department. That would need a draft updating rfc2026. > There are *many* reasons that one might need to refer to an old > draft, I know, and I for one was very happy when the tools site made that possible. Brian From nobody Wed Dec 9 11:39:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFB41A1A03 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptSp2lp19RQm for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E8231A1A10 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id tB9JdKHp020290 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:39:21 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37] claimed to be unnumerable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87zixj7hqe.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <56687DE1.3050800@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <56688363.7040300@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:39:15 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56687DE1.3050800@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 19:39:23 -0000 We have had a separate ID archive from the ID repository for some time. This is necessary for tools like rfcdiff. Drafts are removed from the repository as they expire (or are replaced, or for become inactive for other reasons). They are left in the archive. The repository is exposed at https://www.ietf.org/id The archive is at https://www.ietf.org/archive/id These are both also available over rsync. The message that started this thread should be a bug report - the link in the views the datatracker provides for previous drafts should point into the archives. RjS On 12/9/15 1:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 10/12/2015 04:40, Dale R. Worley wrote: >> Brian E Carpenter writes: >>> That is intentional. Old drafts are obsolete, not intended to be >>> referred to, etc. They need to be archived for sub poena purposes, >>> but that is a hidden archive. >> I've heard that parroted over and over and over, and it's never made any >> sense to me, to the point that I've never understood why anyone would >> say it. > Because it's in the rules (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-2.2). > I'm not saying it's right, but that's how RFC 2026 has always been > interpreted. I'd expect the official IETF web site to follow the rules. > It's an inconsistency that the tracker points to the obsolete pdf > and htmlized versions as it does. > > Rules can be changed, but that's a different department. That would need a > draft updating rfc2026. > >> There are *many* reasons that one might need to refer to an old >> draft, > I know, and I for one was very happy when the tools site made that possible. > > Brian > From nobody Thu Dec 10 08:25:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370FB1A890B for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:25:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovucAjpu6Cv2 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB27D1A89AF for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.244]) by resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id rsRD1r0055Geu2801sRKKU; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:25:19 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id rsRJ1r0031nMCLR01sRJyt; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:25:19 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBAGPHpf018033 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:25:17 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBAGPHrm018030; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:25:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:25:16 -0500 Message-ID: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1449764719; bh=J9oNFWDNDyjLFMYrpxwRzUDGUs1jx5r7/T618jZ12VA=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=U9l7BUM3lJTHSWUfRJFk4erDcOcmmjU3ugrUnflUYL1GTA/qnnvafy7Mg7VJo3GpO Nfe/nKVodxNHPgyDccE05qE0UDk3yEpml4ztB6tuE0MfG77Iy31iTOpL0Fekyzx1UU L93154KNmac1t4jBWEb1PYEDMkAtTo/DnuJash4TJB4ayLLclhSGa5iUfVhZBg+77W 9O70Q68Ous2mm/d6ZyX7DdeiFgoF1Rg3Ycs0O54pr1uvWNLWY7+kWUzgnfkwg03JR3 CJHP86zIxGv3B63zuKbebr7czT8iSR9Ux3ptgqzIhwp5fVpZ/QyKWPtRKo8UKwqjDm UzJndReokIwkw== Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:25:30 -0000 What's happening to the e-mail archives? The links to the good archives (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/WGNAME/current/threads.html) seem to be being replaced with links to the gackiferous archives (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=WGNAME). Dale From nobody Thu Dec 10 11:16:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42491ACE82 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:16:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tir2t5XQw4LS for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C82F51ACE80 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by pfbg73 with SMTP id g73so53623263pfb.1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:16:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LBZ1ha9FVBSaT8MEbEuUpG1Mb6j+wD8oJXjS5g0zUa8=; b=rRmfEEdAPQR9AiYAYd51EDsdV+FERtKZEPxm+BcKH+Jr1NlOWWsLUYY11/Q0gZCR3u ZdGpMHU+FhpPR8XfpMTkY3Fys/KSLWEWpXa1et4pN0vQvbNRjxkSos56mpa+Icb7cTlY cUJCEoElgek3tUu8xRTNnpFEfyASRL5x6856OPIg0opEim8q2CP4kuTspu6VbluT0qcJ fvM40ErQquqhA1+h4e58BTrlu8YksmSvS5p9DO1ibe6h0wTCBinqBzZ4JQFmOtCSpuPg ctELpbcStsbMH64QqPMwUd8O6WpBS/ehbcQb55CHMTobLplhguDGmPDWle7L374RXlgh NxvQ== X-Received: by 10.98.15.91 with SMTP id x88mr9392220pfi.144.1449774989174; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:554b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:554b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 24sm20087639pfm.75.2015.12.10.11.16.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:16:27 -0800 (PST) To: "Dale R. Worley" , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5669CF93.7050002@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:16:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:16:31 -0000 I believe it's intentional. I agree with you that the old format is much better for many purposes. Whatever we promote as the searchable, IMAPpable solution, it's essential to keep the old format around. Brian On 11/12/2015 05:25, Dale R. Worley wrote: > What's happening to the e-mail archives? The links to the good archives > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/WGNAME/current/threads.html) seem > to be being replaced with links to the gackiferous archives > (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=WGNAME). > > Dale > From nobody Thu Dec 10 12:39:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE971B2AAC for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:39:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HEsc5hy9oY8 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB2BA1B2A66 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id tBAKdpP3000817 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:39:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37] claimed to be unnumerable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <5669CF93.7050002@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <5669E311.6060902@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:39:45 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5669CF93.7050002@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:39:54 -0000 If you haven't seen it already, please review and comment on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sparks-genarea-mailarch-improvements/ On 12/10/15 1:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I believe it's intentional. > > I agree with you that the old format is much better for many purposes. > Whatever we promote as the searchable, IMAPpable solution, it's essential > to keep the old format around. > > Brian > On 11/12/2015 05:25, Dale R. Worley wrote: >> What's happening to the e-mail archives? The links to the good archives >> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/WGNAME/current/threads.html) seem >> to be being replaced with links to the gackiferous archives >> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=WGNAME). >> >> Dale >> From nobody Thu Dec 10 13:48:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796D21B29F7 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:48:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aQAr3aPo6TJi for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 062691ACE82 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.101]) by resqmta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id rxoF1r0022Bo0NV01xohmR; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:48:41 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id rxog1r00A1nMCLR01xogB7; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:48:41 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBALmexg004165; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:48:40 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBALmdJD004162; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:48:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <56688363.7040300@nostrum.com> (rjsparks@nostrum.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:48:39 -0500 Message-ID: <877fkm6klk.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1449784121; bh=jNix9QCZnMm2whDbqEuS4F6ayqu9tQxxx8RnUuIMScQ=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=ovCtwl60hYKR9okKiRU3s52ow5XVJqRRu1W8yxtyP9bUnSg2DbI0c4voONtGvAiaj 2bo8N3YbpeTyeYyFeCy4pYxG65UhQZSMO/abNrBY/qYlQ8ViQzoyLBlGpDalZBHQDp u8U+jjdRNLVqjdhQh1WCcAk9XOJHKix1QSF/X2EQK69L1XT48OVXjPLopgWLekTuMe LXETrG2DvP1XU7DTp/yND6L2D8cDt1Ky1yuuBxqPkNqm7hHi+MK8Foi9KWkbQstLv0 2w++iKTll94mHt8CnzpyfH9X5tl0jDSxUp2npvJ2kZi/KWuRdVb1Lci0xb0VfFaPX2 DRSNcV9XtA4Pw== Archived-At: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:48:43 -0000 Robert Sparks writes: > We have had a separate ID archive from the ID repository for some time. > This is necessary for tools like rfcdiff. > > Drafts are removed from the repository as they expire (or are replaced, > or for become inactive for other reasons). They are left in the archive. > > The repository is exposed at https://www.ietf.org/id > The archive is at https://www.ietf.org/archive/id Ah, excellent! > These are both also available over rsync. Specifically, "rsync ftp.ietf.org::id-archive ..." Dale From nobody Thu Dec 10 14:13:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8E61B2C91 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:13:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HTZUf2QouwtI for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net [69.252.207.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 995F11B2C8A for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.105]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ry9h1r0042GyhjZ01yA9Ng; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:10:09 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ryA81r00H1nMCLR01yA8h3; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:10:09 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBAMA76c005106 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:10:07 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBAMA7lL005101; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:10:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> (worley@ariadne.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:10:07 -0500 Message-ID: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1449785409; bh=1opHkH47XRiMIrscqohgJbguPCMGVy9w3os0Ps0LIl8=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=wl6EFLjrAJ1pozczzn+p+CJOjhSQKL9cg5NMdME2sT4s6m+EU1Oj5oOxL0p4g7AHm pZVB+MNdDkUQ59vpVmDvubMwiLA3iwV+1Bzzxc6P3ibo5eElZv694dTLGYO4ixHuL9 4/vakdj3fIj85K2hQQnEilnmoStS8Y5hfYbYXuh+wGIb7z7sIPeIFkW2AzcwcD57ec J0duVPbvLJpHQtot+Zx1dGo7OjQOwDWynMptzEgxVpZcKFI11th3CefsEG7ibLPn5w IQB2Hm6OICuVwj5258ZJZu6KI7KN+WZDDmoUJSgrogZ1yPCwasVW//qXbY+ASW2Gul ZcVMZ4lp+kSqA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:13:13 -0000 worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) writes: > What's happening to the e-mail archives? The links to the good archives > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/WGNAME/current/threads.html) seem > to be being replaced with links to the gackiferous archives > (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=WGNAME). Or to phrase that better, I find the old archive web pages much preferable to the new ones. No doubt, many people have the reverse opinion or the new format wouldn't exist. But I'd like to ensure that the old format (or something functionally equivalent) does not disappear. I'll go over draft-sparks-genarea-mailarch-improvements and see if I can make some concrete suggestions. Dale From nobody Thu Dec 10 16:42:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48AF1B32E1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:42:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7VZY2bCFG8Y for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2145A1B32E0 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacwq6 with SMTP id wq6so55650011pac.1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:42:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sOIe5CP5fDlDbZoHToyoSFzDGo4Qd4syE23CrFqHAUg=; b=L8uMnayiLYYfpf93Ljk6ygM/FI/t3gB2XpQJAGK/2SgJudX3yEgKbyfRN0XJSVhgg0 qW3tDmmfr8Vf4UdJ4FuNZoIWuWxJVdIB0NeeDogd3je6wYZ6JGzUW4d09b9pox6tKIHN eujpAlRucIZxAEL/9SylqmNG6COGcmxJNjM4EwY6W3C5JybwcPECMYz93dLV5Lwy9UwA tHGo1axbSpo8RO+FuZEzuTz/UdjhV7Hvm4ZdKjs8tGo2tTFMw+5is5h+hczFHY0Gx2mw L6L5qyiqcy82I6L0YM5eVCvtLpkvqPvNlC52/wzSqoz15fpGct6G16tKdvkMXWh8MTg/ dXNg== X-Received: by 10.66.55.39 with SMTP id o7mr20730421pap.13.1449794566388; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:554b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:554b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ah10sm21265084pad.23.2015.12.10.16.42.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:42:44 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87zixj7hqe.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <56687DE1.3050800@gmail.com> <56688363.7040300@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566A1C0C.5070507@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:42:52 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56688363.7040300@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Old draft text version X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:42:48 -0000 On 10/12/2015 08:39, Robert Sparks wrote: > We have had a separate ID archive from the ID repository for some time. > This is necessary for tools like rfcdiff. > > Drafts are removed from the repository as they expire (or are replaced, or for become inactive for other reasons). They are left > in the archive. > > The repository is exposed at https://www.ietf.org/id > The archive is at https://www.ietf.org/archive/id Only complete back to 1995 I think. There are definitely drafts missing from earlier years. Brian > These are both also available over rsync. > > The message that started this thread should be a bug report - the link in the views the datatracker provides for previous drafts > should point into the archives. > > RjS > > > > On 12/9/15 1:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 10/12/2015 04:40, Dale R. Worley wrote: >>> Brian E Carpenter writes: >>>> That is intentional. Old drafts are obsolete, not intended to be >>>> referred to, etc. They need to be archived for sub poena purposes, >>>> but that is a hidden archive. >>> I've heard that parroted over and over and over, and it's never made any >>> sense to me, to the point that I've never understood why anyone would >>> say it. >> Because it's in the rules (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-2.2). >> I'm not saying it's right, but that's how RFC 2026 has always been >> interpreted. I'd expect the official IETF web site to follow the rules. >> It's an inconsistency that the tracker points to the obsolete pdf >> and htmlized versions as it does. >> >> Rules can be changed, but that's a different department. That would need a >> draft updating rfc2026. >> >>> There are *many* reasons that one might need to refer to an old >>> draft, >> I know, and I for one was very happy when the tools site made that possible. >> >> Brian >> > From nobody Thu Dec 10 23:19:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEE41A8984 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:19:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TZdFPSY5FJRS for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx143.netapp.com (mx143.netapp.com [216.240.21.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71FC61A8982 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:19:39 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,412,1444719600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="84312303" Received: from hioexcmbx02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.122.105.35]) by mx143-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 10 Dec 2015 23:14:38 -0800 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.40) by hioexcmbx02-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:14:38 -0800 Received: from HIOEXCMBX07-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx07-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::942f:e59f:f84a:7191%21]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:14:38 -0800 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "Dale R. Worley" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? Thread-Index: AQHRM5eH4N2eedPYv0iOZOQQ+UwvAZ7F5hqA Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:14:37 +0000 Message-ID: <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> In-Reply-To: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.120.60.37] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DC15E045-48A6-48EC-A9BB-15ADDB762F82"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:19:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DC15E045-48A6-48EC-A9BB-15ADDB762F82 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2015-12-10, at 23:10, Dale R. Worley wrote: >=20 > Or to phrase that better, I find the old archive web pages much > preferable to the new ones. (...) > But I'd like to ensure that > the old format (or something functionally equivalent) does not > disappear. I wanted to point out that while this may sound like a reasonable = suggestion, it in fact doubles the maintenance load, because now both = the old and new need to be maintained in perpetuity. In a single instance, this may not be a huge issue, but every time the = tools team changes something, there are some who liked the old way = better and want it to be also maintained. This doesn't scale. If we have rough consensus for a change, that should = by default mean that the old way disappears (after a transition period = if not immediately.) Yep, this sucks for those of us on the rough side of the consensus, but = that's the IETF for you. Lars --Apple-Mail=_DC15E045-48A6-48EC-A9BB-15ADDB762F82 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWanfcAAoJEFS1wwm/cMFXECQP/Ax78z1MmQThAS1ertkMzUtm l9v51uES8n7cf1GVGJ5JJ7qPD5D0uBbDNUlBwVDUI5UUSOWlQgMMcXMomzBRXGwB 97L4tih17nr6YKC4RAiAdqcTvr0rSfCGZc5A0GldomcBJLhq0sLgcDUiSAGSQMX0 YRlmNJaS5oOB2zJ7yxLaUhCrTTpmMOh38K7npbgfrD+K94JHS8KNVkVdE2Bt7Wx/ U7ktsY66B6CnrGticbXaGKDKaHTf1gh+hY3zQf8FY9VbXFsxByEG8oo7k1ryDIVz /srz/nO2w62pj9sJLsRSmUyIksiXxrgP3qIEeiQUnDzuhLxcj6fbvZQH+O9IjzWI jSUr2LxjHCM6qOm3Gej+ifemgO3dqtNStOXXIjAxbCH/CvsB82vu6l0ODZzlFWL7 Hx/SJp8Uu4dFunh6wWccFza/GC1FenVNCL5BfsLEFXl7m21aOm6pGAvXsSADWhwI YPnyHAg43GW+IZ0cLriZKytKA46RJRZtbpoNypUa1GqFgxvUoAJ70HkqA9wLCmAs btnW1ytOPCsnBVtQxoYvTssCvQKKyYYz7BMAPe3h4LY7vYbeSDU0weGFCz44EbPX 8M5/wGW27s/lJcvE14xQMxbv8yMmHKvN0N/4K9UHnuokvuXwBdjqg7uv9hwh5g85 UV9IKxXKAb2OzPZ+5KNk =PbD7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DC15E045-48A6-48EC-A9BB-15ADDB762F82-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:31:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A2F1A8796 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRFX4uyZg28N for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from duva.sjd.se (duva.sjd.se [37.123.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 814521A879E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from latte.josefsson.org ([155.4.17.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by duva.sjd.se (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id tBBAULt9021309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:30:22 +0100 From: Simon Josefsson To: "Eggert\, Lars" References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> OpenPGP: id=54265E8C; url=http://josefsson.org/54265e8c.txt X-Hashcash: 1:22:151211:lars@netapp.com::N0Dsu+zqWg7GBrGD:Azsf X-Hashcash: 1:22:151211:worley@ariadne.com::gAYhqTdZWN46tS9u:L4B/ X-Hashcash: 1:22:151211:tools-discuss@ietf.org::zDXZrnFRuSQ/RJq1:FtEM Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:30:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> (Lars Eggert's message of "Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:14:37 +0000") Message-ID: <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at duva.sjd.se X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:31:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Eggert, Lars" writes: > Hi, > > On 2015-12-10, at 23:10, Dale R. Worley wrote: >>=20 >> Or to phrase that better, I find the old archive web pages much >> preferable to the new ones. > (...) >> But I'd like to ensure that >> the old format (or something functionally equivalent) does not >> disappear. > > I wanted to point out that while this may sound like a reasonable > suggestion, it in fact doubles the maintenance load, because now both > the old and new need to be maintained in perpetuity. > > In a single instance, this may not be a huge issue, but every time the > tools team changes something, there are some who liked the old way > better and want it to be also maintained. > > This doesn't scale. If we have rough consensus for a change, that > should by default mean that the old way disappears (after a transition > period if not immediately.) > > Yep, this sucks for those of us on the rough side of the consensus, > but that's the IETF for you. Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and create other pages. Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it From=20the new webpages. /Simon --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJWaqW8AAoJEIYLf7sy+BGdohgH/RiOkmFdIomPrlFu49MaiBVw WNLRvICgFe976N8qSlsOxK9hhQyGeuFSfsot8fR+P0NPk70PCFspbPCxgZg1eK9R 8AGtb4W+fhE+S5RBjR3WymrTy2aAuEUDt/REShZI+bvMunojkOVH/zBcFvQSPNYL JQsrg8MoVE6ZaU3c1MB5Ldhm5Cb/XglRQFEVSXQIlURas4M/IM2R9whWhIM4YupJ TmdLx9MslqLr+eEkG8G9MIyUD1h7r5Billh0H0yyoaWK7LFkvKLXmJlccUF/e6Xs 1ytBTPLvJaCzPEemlXjUUuFgNN9cIjxt57OH66S0ZVaF5DJg3Fmucpddx+5fSc0= =klWK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:42:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24281A87BE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:42:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y_IU9FMYMg-8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x22d.google.com (mail-ob0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 011591A87BC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by obcse5 with SMTP id se5so81185068obc.3 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:42:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ENADkPPfXTbqxu6HrMEwAI1AZCDklp/DDYd/TCjx5mY=; b=fYUuLxUYSeDcR9m1wBPlk9XQM07psK1XoqUwWJ3nPktubtlfwPiCRLhuVUhDv2A6AU mTtS+GHlgaVVgnXe4ecJjlO0SGy784j/1C3106meJ67yI7gU0ieduIL5U5HnnXy1HCXX bXkXtcRqpDWr7KCidBK3oYdVxbi0TjK3Z8p/g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ENADkPPfXTbqxu6HrMEwAI1AZCDklp/DDYd/TCjx5mY=; b=GK3kp0MQKVov32pQ+mnTTghK/BqFnVD1NWRLCzPq4ILd7zbXhQkn6H5lvvXAEJQyUI TVKEcHXzGsvDGs/Yw6LYzuiQdkv7kGEGCrPP89A3KrOLqW/73HjoXpTaBjzhpE0IDtNo Abgicg22cNC1dRFrMrgo8wDGKlapC3ETov6cOAKig/VaX39moj7reTlLnqoltQDySq7/ hNbaZxQw3O7XlE1aizkGfdhjGfdbcpSISzK68TOi5vPJ0gZxPUzI+Ch9Wa0HtcX9dkAM sPzNm02tN1ko/TioVREZQhbyRMGbCPf9PPHC8jVbl8idnqAzuoEAcnGpcBn1luMiOPb/ ve0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmf87+WLHTfs3COeHOvVxo+CwZL7G2qzl0N7vNxdr+XKtBQFX/pRDCo5MHs2foAWGGsUBbpddyOPXEe68zU+zYpKGGGfQr+P9FQD2URl/tKXMGyTMc= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.233.164 with SMTP id tx4mr13311800oec.44.1449830554236; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.11.166 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:42:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:42:34 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: Simon Josefsson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1136a29c2ba7d705269cfbca Archived-At: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:42:36 -0000 --001a1136a29c2ba7d705269cfbca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson wrote: > Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people > really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and > create other pages. > > Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw > data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it > From the new webpages. > I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. Dave. --001a1136a29c2ba7d705269cfbca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
Are the raw mailbox = files available for all lists?=C2=A0 Then if people
really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and
create other pages.

Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw
data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it >From the new webpages.

I understood tha= t all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would presumably satisf= y that requirement very well indeed.

Dave.
--001a1136a29c2ba7d705269cfbca-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:47:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31171A87EB for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:47:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jk3KFBLsnuE1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from duva.sjd.se (duva.sjd.se [IPv6:2001:9b0:1:1702::100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CD941A8823 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from latte.josefsson.org ([155.4.17.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by duva.sjd.se (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id tBBAlHIX023439 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:47:18 +0100 From: Simon Josefsson To: Dave Cridland References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> OpenPGP: id=54265E8C; url=http://josefsson.org/54265e8c.txt X-Hashcash: 1:22:151211:lars@netapp.com::CV+RSGiFN6J/JPV+:3ZBi X-Hashcash: 1:22:151211:dave@cridland.net::5XSBxKiUHDB2RW1+:2iZN X-Hashcash: 1:22:151211:tools-discuss@ietf.org::zcC+f2FFp9aulQYk:8+nq Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:47:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Dave Cridland's message of "Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:42:34 +0000") Message-ID: <87fuz9l0ss.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at duva.sjd.se X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:47:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Dave Cridland writes: > On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson wrote: > >> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people >> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and >> create other pages. >> >> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw >> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it >> From the new webpages. >> > > I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would > presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. Right -- assuming the data is updated immediately. How long does it take after an email has been sent out to the participants of an IETF mailing list before it is available 1) on the official web archive?, 2) on the official IMAP server?, and 3) in the official mbox files? I'm not looking for an absolute time, just to identify if there is anywhere in the process a daily/hourly cron-job that needs to run, of it happens "as soon as possible". Having a daily/hourly cron job to export emails to IMAP/mbox is not good enough, IMHO. /Simon --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJWaqm0AAoJEIYLf7sy+BGdx30H+QFi0vboqUavmAOGyI+zgqeL 4zXFC4RjWHD+dIaCJx6bTyDQTEVpo9ba7R+55L1ghCct+n2zJfz9NCY7XN8RZSfZ 4alFmzmPn4z8R3dlLxNY9BhNVpVK6esygSq/bhdP1wF3mAQIR1NNsuCtyucJSqyi 0Dytzc1qD/qo+2SYJmOLMeWY9s7JpfX10Z1CVFe0Onv8nXdrL8cZTk5GYUTqczyC 67SoTfCvU+EqdXbhHq2JjQMJtFfKKx8kTA8G8ngBYk9JkUizNnhRZuOQqK3Mk5cG SGkihmu4hvr61ZrWDW475HCPzfDzFFyacX17VbR7TAxe0h1hkNFlLx8F541J7/E= =JZ3R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:50:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C33D1A8826 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GED0r9F3Q882 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3D0D1A87D2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by oiww189 with SMTP id w189so60785072oiw.3 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:49:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=JuqY6L2NsxYbyzhfjjWekwK+9Ldp6XNtFq+YEGVyqZM=; b=ZIbh/AEqvEsrG5DxymNl3bC5n2l7HiWvaLjTwZzJu7L2U1EfoQX3GOxgDNCBrCZ9kt lgvQ9jiX0riEsDcasRnJV/iYSAXDfUoYfVyRRxQW6q7adkmq6en81ak9H8R/sV2Ku3rO BzsUUQUdQIItZFg+KECI+fP7r0CO7SOPpmm3U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JuqY6L2NsxYbyzhfjjWekwK+9Ldp6XNtFq+YEGVyqZM=; b=dNbt5v05ISw3UFz+mgLhzAwWXkeWuSLCLpVRNiP9nw8iX6jJepaBZxfexCx6IXN9sU FQpiL9pbHwAbXuQGLQDmp9wLeTywyJ2u66nswF6l2V/uKF4YFkQPH5lo1PoAMUv9+c7f yvxFCGijRLjmDjuhb53kOVRJNCEKW51v+ORQ8y9QjCb6YMr/f4N5Z8JMQiTwL0xmDhWu W8awBTpozNgTFG1+cduG0BckIBOzltAHHXM/F87io39yCSv1Gnay+sKo6e6ccHZIlz8e mGWwlyy0qu7TWS/BhBRdl5tRHWPfvZguiDwczA9sd7doVs0OI5W52If90B80CB8Vn26D 6ZZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmSb8VYvEB8QJs6aP2AGYp2HqxgshzEpquspRTAtfyRytjlaN7Fs31tG+bW+CAume/Izxytl2PaqDb/YzrvomE0SKye6+Z2ig4ZTbqJZlr3gGn2xrs= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.173.6 with SMTP id w6mr3970268oie.52.1449830984344; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.11.166 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:49:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fuz9l0ss.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <87fuz9l0ss.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:49:44 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: Simon Josefsson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ce3a2ce81fd05269d145b Archived-At: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:50:01 -0000 --001a113ce3a2ce81fd05269d145b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 11 December 2015 at 10:47, Simon Josefsson wrote: > Dave Cridland writes: > > > On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson > wrote: > > > >> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people > >> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and > >> create other pages. > >> > >> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw > >> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it > >> From the new webpages. > >> > > > > I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would > > presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. > > Right -- assuming the data is updated immediately. How long does it > take after an email has been sent out to the participants of an IETF > mailing list before it is available 1) on the official web archive?, 2) > on the official IMAP server?, and 3) in the official mbox files? I'm > not looking for an absolute time, just to identify if there is anywhere > in the process a daily/hourly cron-job that needs to run, of it happens > "as soon as possible". Having a daily/hourly cron job to export emails > to IMAP/mbox is not good enough, IMHO. > > Oh, hmm. Good point, I'd assumed that the IMAP server was fed the emails directly from mailman, and that the new web archive just talked to IMAP directly. That'd be the sane option, though, so it might not be what happens. > /Simon > --001a113ce3a2ce81fd05269d145b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 11 December 2015 at 10:47, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
Dav= e Cridland <dave@cridland.net&g= t; writes:

> On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
>
>> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists?=C2=A0 Then if p= eople
>> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files= and
>> create other pages.
>>
>> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the= raw
>> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scr= ape it
>> From the new webpages.
>>
>
> I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that wo= uld
> presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed.

Right -- assuming the data is updated immediately.=C2=A0 How long do= es it
take after an email has been sent out to the participants of an IETF
mailing list before it is available 1) on the official web archive?, 2)
on the official IMAP server?, and 3) in the official mbox files?=C2=A0 I= 9;m
not looking for an absolute time, just to identify if there is anywhere
in the process a daily/hourly cron-job that needs to run, of it happens
"as soon as possible".=C2=A0 Having a daily/hourly cron job to ex= port emails
to IMAP/mbox is not good enough, IMHO.


Oh, hmm. Good point, I'd assumed that the IMAP s= erver was fed the emails directly from mailman, and that the new web archiv= e just talked to IMAP directly. That'd be the sane option, though, so i= t might not be what happens.
=C2=A0
/Simon

--001a113ce3a2ce81fd05269d145b-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 06:11:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4611ACF54 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:11:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MSKYWCx23VGp for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF10B1ACF24 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id tBBEBJIP024706 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:11:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37] claimed to be unnumerable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <87fuz9l0ss.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <566AD983.9020807@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:11:15 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080906060908000009030503" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:11:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080906060908000009030503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, the messages make it into the archives as they are sent to the lists - there is no additional delay to anything like a cron heartbeat. RjS On 12/11/15 4:49 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > > > On 11 December 2015 at 10:47, Simon Josefsson > wrote: > > Dave Cridland > writes: > > > On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson > > wrote: > > > >> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people > >> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox > files and > >> create other pages. > >> > >> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to > the raw > >> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen > scrape it > >> From the new webpages. > >> > > > > I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so > that would > > presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. > > Right -- assuming the data is updated immediately. How long does it > take after an email has been sent out to the participants of an IETF > mailing list before it is available 1) on the official web > archive?, 2) > on the official IMAP server?, and 3) in the official mbox files? I'm > not looking for an absolute time, just to identify if there is > anywhere > in the process a daily/hourly cron-job that needs to run, of it > happens > "as soon as possible". Having a daily/hourly cron job to export > emails > to IMAP/mbox is not good enough, IMHO. > > > Oh, hmm. Good point, I'd assumed that the IMAP server was fed the > emails directly from mailman, and that the new web archive just talked > to IMAP directly. That'd be the sane option, though, so it might not > be what happens. > > /Simon > > > > --------------080906060908000009030503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, the messages make it into the archives as they are sent to the lists - there is no additional delay to anything like a cron heartbeat.

RjS

On 12/11/15 4:49 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:


On 11 December 2015 at 10:47, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> writes:

> On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
>
>> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists?  Then if people
>> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and
>> create other pages.
>>
>> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw
>> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it
>> From the new webpages.
>>
>
> I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would
> presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed.

Right -- assuming the data is updated immediately.  How long does it
take after an email has been sent out to the participants of an IETF
mailing list before it is available 1) on the official web archive?, 2)
on the official IMAP server?, and 3) in the official mbox files?  I'm
not looking for an absolute time, just to identify if there is anywhere
in the process a daily/hourly cron-job that needs to run, of it happens
"as soon as possible".  Having a daily/hourly cron job to export emails
to IMAP/mbox is not good enough, IMHO.


Oh, hmm. Good point, I'd assumed that the IMAP server was fed the emails directly from mailman, and that the new web archive just talked to IMAP directly. That'd be the sane option, though, so it might not be what happens.
 
/Simon




--------------080906060908000009030503-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 06:14:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89A01AD049 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:14:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5L9ViqU5109C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C9EE1A90F0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id tBBEEnKV025025 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:14:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host pool-173-57-210-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.210.37] claimed to be unnumerable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <87fuz9l0ss.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <566ADA54.5030006@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:14:44 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:14:52 -0000 On 12/11/15 4:49 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > > > > Oh, hmm. Good point, I'd assumed that the IMAP server was fed the > emails directly from mailman, and that the new web archive just talked > to IMAP directly. That'd be the sane option, though, so it might not > be what happens. Both the web archive and the imap server are backed by exactly the same bits - there's only one copy of each message on disk, and both use it. As Lars pointed out, this _dramatically_ simplifies management of the archives. RJS From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:39:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E1F1B2DDE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:39:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wl4I01TcXFia for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCF271B2DD7 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0572002A; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611D663795; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:39:10 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:39:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I like, Dave Worley, prefer the old mailman (pipermail) archives to the new interface. While I can't search by string, I get much better threading and context, and if I I want to refer someone (by URL) to the thread, the old archive systems wins hands down. If I'm trying to understand some discussion that has occured in the past, I would now attempt to use the IMAP interface via Thunderbird (which I installed and configured just for IMAP). I suggest trying this. I note that many of our lists are also on gmane.org, and they have a variety of ways to access things, but this is relying on the kindness of gmane volunteer work. And the URLs that result are simpler, and the files are resting on disk, and I could wget --mirror the whole thing if I wanted to. Having said this, I appreciate maintaining two things is harder. I know that there is work to make the threading interface to the new archives better, and perhaps the resulting URL *for the thread* will be easier to obtain. I very very much like that the emails going out have their mailarchive URL in them already --- that's really cool. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVmsYSoCLcPvd0N1lAQJjEwf+My6IHViJ1Hr0XUH8DVcB1BdOwqmdKZ1U Jn2TX0ec83G0hVefdgj4UPWjOqz60QebYxBEfH9svmss/nTGMsD+Kdbn9h1Rx/ug HV6k5utHzXMRh4zrZw8DyB4XASxwpjTAo7wnrCRfe/9E3Ms9dhJURutO5YXBAi5W RDyTzoOK/77ado7ZiA4JWSVON1xoN/Avhs5GoZ7CXtTDGQMshRqIIy51XnhPvF95 JjxxWzbEk7zgn6Wf7nWdqbqWYm5jHaC01tUZwQZ/Bj00/Km3djxRaJdw4/UOBV/A 6ASOHPw/IHog4wK3bjPa7AuxFTsqP+VnsaPcUusgul17g8Bysw2W8w== =R6BU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:57:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993231A000A for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:57:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lruasy4c1EWF for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x230.google.com (mail-pf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9F1A1A0007 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by pfnn128 with SMTP id n128so70166068pfn.0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=avywAOQgaa1RRf6+slCZ01fgUStHOz0NYkFarFDaSYM=; b=kvPWeWtwO/l7iH6fYw5SJLZbZ1KbiKAHjFu0qq9kSQSv0wyO4I+js0cNyhcWxjBR+i ZlEjljBCIi+8esf3V/qQyehuj6QrSf5l2saLDqjcI2Pw0Wybo8SPBqxxqOdwU8ORl8u/ zKS/gXyG/VS4Fr/2EF7Fv8Mcg86IQocvuq9ZXnD8M+5y4XtY5Cjhd5s7r30keHWVMhL7 99vjD/zE9h2SN/4mY+0mU5sOf308Ip48xf2xdXwluconXuf074wjBHMV8+GEDthjNIbr g0rc64pv+5jGy+eKLhd5Siumn8mJikcOU0t3GGTAk73WDBiWl32y0f/F2ow/rN0CdOV6 8v1A== X-Received: by 10.98.8.20 with SMTP id c20mr17318753pfd.65.1449860220190; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r26sm26674913pfa.45.2015.12.11.10.56.57 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:56:59 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566B1C85.80309@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:57:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:57:02 -0000 On 11/12/2015 23:42, Dave Cridland wrote: > On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson wrote: > >> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people >> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and >> create other pages. >> >> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw >> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it >> From the new webpages. >> > > I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would > presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. You are joking, I trust. We're talking about massive quantities of data, which should stay where they belong, somewhere at ietf.org. Brian From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:01:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363401A0024 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:01:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5EBljH8xy0d for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com (mail-pa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 074AA1A0022 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by pabur14 with SMTP id ur14so69704621pab.0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:00:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yOG3qdRTf531f9Xk1LcHwzShaSvQnk6DZkMoz9T31jw=; b=EczoRQLkVrfeS0AxlVUia5qgp6fRCRK+WViCParEFvdyYi2USOLA8IwFtzhkLNurMV C0ZED75R+dx5jiRX2SklOE8vbmkdU4I4cWg3y+a+d+XLfMqZEoTwYt8zYzTzD26e6jk5 BOUv64NRA8gSn21KezkKoyGxn9Oc2d3nYiVYbG+xAAov24D8EiuZwb+qMJrQuQlhK57v stzkoZLjaRalF6jqCaAExSwQ1JL3Tnb13FR/GzI2LfR46ww/ts8OlEv230mktyumQKSa V9i90h4rRHyEQemIGbyX+Znph+u7OTAGM4FAArmbP9zYHZMnZSbMUgOrD1EEwklQpvUm 8aGQ== X-Received: by 10.67.4.202 with SMTP id cg10mr27096674pad.81.1449860457550; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w1sm26661767pfa.57.2015.12.11.11.00.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:00:56 -0800 (PST) To: "Eggert, Lars" , "Dale R. Worley" References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566B1D72.4050700@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 08:01:06 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:01:02 -0000 On 11/12/2015 20:14, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Hi, > > On 2015-12-10, at 23:10, Dale R. Worley wrote: >> >> Or to phrase that better, I find the old archive web pages much >> preferable to the new ones. > (...) >> But I'd like to ensure that >> the old format (or something functionally equivalent) does not >> disappear. > > I wanted to point out that while this may sound like a reasonable suggestion, it in fact doubles the maintenance load, because now both the old and new need to be maintained in perpetuity. But that's what will be needed, unless the new system provides sufficient functionality, which at the moment it doesn't. Of course, Robert is correct, those of us who are complaining need to read his draft. Brian From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:17:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1D91A01D7 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:17:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ijAVcow8NcIv for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com (mail-oi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0AA01A1AA1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by oihr132 with SMTP id r132so9333184oih.1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dp5lnxT7ucW70ZuVFKT6c8Wo9/Q9yTaKg304q/dK4bw=; b=i+1V4XB/tFWKg1XTGhm+BsPD8LdqYTAwCz/XzNhqFLYhTQ0QfF1SWC+5rofN0El4Y4 mlRCje8ZPLMel5MgFi4uXDcjmWgWSsxehFNo92/PWe1xmP5EtpHNMaZ985/OWqH6+R2V mVQqkXQwcRfH5k7A62Q2XWm2Gg62GheltJA+M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dp5lnxT7ucW70ZuVFKT6c8Wo9/Q9yTaKg304q/dK4bw=; b=PorSizeCVre4O0/C2zbmvc0Ah4JbbPDH64FxzpTHnz+pHdBzgWcLkjML2FTwowcvCV e4+x5KHxhznmdYFpMUaIJEPhJckGSNvXgZnobshUEkiRQotIY3lxbAyDy5hnlyLoQmzz KD75En24UiRIdP7MTxpk60eGiJ3LHU5eZJf2xLiTCyzDjwOdzJ2T2F8xSuHUVlqga/H3 IuMk7AwNzlaoUTewvXULnQ/k/5E6AJ7N68XFR/ynLwnqXpWn5eJ26e0VRj9U5TnzdYbF /z1Px5WogznrloctK5K55K2uAo3mMlW394hFxX8x/Cbhe0ozc0nSP2KfWa1tvStWXPUn MFOA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmV3vI7xes4YXOytR2mICPiUgOkhF+h2AIDn24MTYYMJ1Scrz9oFKmL7mNnAwOiQM5PUwFvEtFfMd5o/jUejIfPK2IHCNw2E0eBiAcDU5SGIWukD0c= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.64.198 with SMTP id n189mr15109107oia.139.1449865031244; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.11.166 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <566B1C85.80309@gmail.com> References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <566B1C85.80309@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:17:11 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: Brian E Carpenter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113dc1ca28f91f0526a502a9 Archived-At: Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:17:13 -0000 --001a113dc1ca28f91f0526a502a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 11 December 2015 at 18:57, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 11/12/2015 23:42, Dave Cridland wrote: > > On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson > wrote: > > > >> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people > >> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and > >> create other pages. > >> > >> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw > >> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it > >> From the new webpages. > >> > > > > I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would > > presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. > > You are joking, I trust. We're talking about massive quantities of data, > which > should stay where they belong, somewhere at ietf.org. > > No, I'm not joking. If people want access to the raw message data, then IMAP is well-suited to this (and more so, I think, than mbox files). I'm not claiming mirroring everything is anything I particularly want to do, or would see the point of, but back-filling my local archive of a WG list I came late to would seem sensible - I assume that Simon was suggesting something along those lines. Dave. --001a113dc1ca28f91f0526a502a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 11 December 2015 at 18:57, Brian E Carpenter <<= a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/12/2015 23:42, Dave Cridland wrote:
> On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
>
>> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists?=C2=A0 Then if p= eople
>> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files= and
>> create other pages.
>>
>> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the= raw
>> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scr= ape it
>> From the new webpages.
>>
>
> I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that wo= uld
> presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed.

You are joking, I trust. We're talking about massive quantities = of data, which
should stay where they belong, somewhere at ietf.org.


No, I'm not joking. If people want access to the= raw message data, then IMAP is well-suited to this (and more so, I think, = than mbox files). I'm not claiming mirroring everything is anything I p= articularly want to do, or would see the point of, but back-filling my loca= l archive of a WG list I came late to would seem sensible - I assume that S= imon was suggesting something along those lines.

D= ave.
--001a113dc1ca28f91f0526a502a9-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 14:13:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD631A9085 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:13:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R1lLmKzpPjqi for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01CFF1A9047 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by pfnn128 with SMTP id n128so72366718pfn.0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:13:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pxRSWcR2d7cG+6LWqsHzipcgj2A5PCmf8NoC/od5pXg=; b=UfMaJzgcUQXJzO5DVnovFEJsMiAmN+NjCinVSHvSDIsbPPRMlKENGeSlXKyXKib7Hw 6YEC+Vd7yZ6Ierzq9Z+/syozJ9R3/DpmYr1ofFakKxfpoGQEo7HBHfH1XcTM53F7U0Jf yDhE1ZU9bxBqvDWzX06NBeXpM+l7U0Fph0DfN1O0yQpF8c2jr5gRTzFbL99ciyZnrUni 6bSHvZzh09Lk8MHpiL6Cd2BCx4RsMGNzP2v554l8/9R3ZfueZ/pTXtAXf6pgRgd7KDx2 /pPVxNnMSp7IadgfNTzGnJhzqzvkfZd8U1E5b/CQ4lihdjAPsWVgyjIC3L1PcmL2f0LY ClwA== X-Received: by 10.98.1.140 with SMTP id 134mr18084316pfb.134.1449872004488; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x86sm12648131pfi.68.2015.12.11.14.13.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:13:22 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Cridland References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> <87vb85l1kz.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <566B1C85.80309@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566B4A8D.4020406@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:13:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:13:26 -0000 On 12/12/2015 09:17, Dave Cridland wrote: > On 11 December 2015 at 18:57, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > >> On 11/12/2015 23:42, Dave Cridland wrote: >>> On 11 December 2015 at 10:30, Simon Josefsson >> wrote: >>> >>>> Are the raw mailbox files available for all lists? Then if people >>>> really like another format can easily import the raw mailbox files and >>>> create other pages. >>>> >>>> Whatever is done here, I believe it is critical that access to the raw >>>> data here is provided, so that people don't have to screen scrape it >>>> From the new webpages. >>>> >>> >>> I understood that all the archives are available over IMAP, so that would >>> presumably satisfy that requirement very well indeed. >> >> You are joking, I trust. We're talking about massive quantities of data, >> which >> should stay where they belong, somewhere at ietf.org. >> >> > No, I'm not joking. If people want access to the raw message data, then > IMAP is well-suited to this (and more so, I think, than mbox files). I'm > not claiming mirroring everything is anything I particularly want to do, or > would see the point of, but back-filling my local archive of a WG list I > came late to would seem sensible - I assume that Simon was suggesting > something along those lines. Fair enough if you are selective. Brian From nobody Sat Dec 12 15:49:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F3F1AC412 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:49:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id di5IzifTwUHP for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ore.jhcloos.com (ore.jhcloos.com [198.147.22.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 305481AC411 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by ore.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id 9DEFE1EC8E; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:49:43 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=ore14; t=1449964183; bh=2zVKy1rCi1Ud0UKwzXtxF4/qyNhDTJYteg9O76P3sZs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=NnAULpHcNvVm9E89/siLPnNzGjgtE8sDYjpYvanqSPovH/417x4lT+Ir2OyItaTnY cifbzrbNiey/ntaaqECg2VLFYABk37CznRa1FL+Dc1p2rNiPWvUI54GBqMs7kEnIs2 amdKFCvyz/b2yqkGH2sktGHKQxiKXtG8HrbF74VE= Received: by carbon.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 08FAA100CD541; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:47:49 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: In-Reply-To: <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> (Lars Eggert's message of "Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:14:37 +0000") References: <871tau6jls.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2015 James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6; url=https://jhcloos.com/public_key/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:47:49 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Hashcash: 1:28:151212:tools-discuss@ietf.org::4BUY+N/Kkv4VIjgo:000000000000000000000000000000000000002cGsW X-Hashcash: 1:28:151212:worley@ariadne.com::SP4PjxGod9d5yX3r:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000H5TOX X-Hashcash: 1:28:151212:lars@netapp.com::sWi1aMBCi5LL0Tu6:0HqDNi Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:49:46 -0000 >>>>> "EL" == Eggert, Lars writes: EL> I wanted to point out that while this may sound like a reasonable EL> suggestion, it in fact doubles the maintenance load, because now EL> both the old and new need to be maintained in perpetuity. Will the mbox files in rsync.ietf.org::everything-ftp/ietf-mail-archive/ continue to be updated? One mbox per calendar month? I gave up on the web interface and use my rsync copy of everything-ftp whenever I need to look at ietf archives. -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 From nobody Mon Dec 14 12:25:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B894A1B2EAF for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:25:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.664 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_64nuRvl5EJ for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6A681B2E85 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.99]) by resqmta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id tYRh1r00A29Cfhx01YRnZk; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:25:47 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id tYRm1r00Q1nMCLR01YRnJz; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:25:47 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBEKPkQO009643; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:25:46 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBEKPjJ2009640; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:25:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: "Eggert\, Lars" In-Reply-To: <04380869-C63C-4866-8EEC-F8651B460A94@netapp.com> (lars@netapp.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:25:45 -0500 Message-ID: <87poy83hh2.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1450124747; bh=aSrEZGAv+Hn8xjDJDvpHInmJceJa5EbtDRgL2a6+wow=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=Xbx0cmPWA6Q72wInRQjb14GbCFW6XXXNoSokrcGv4m6QQXfcO2wqh1qG5LXLKT8QN Y+nRbpmVG0S34dmmk42IgZ4zRSNIy3t8ZMR8tWWmOgMcaXX0aXL8g39615yubd1/l9 1DbahSjQztcgh0GQ4XfQfBqC6eu9L6YEo6Qc20Owjhx6vj75PF0WU5qMbpjpihb8k1 a7ExrASVBXkzHVpfXBTnj1rP9651H/DqsmJobsl9aGDawXUe56GCb77lHi942MhKo8 l1WHdueLNmDC/rajK3tM5aqJzCqolqU5enLLwAS3+BIFnqLBEpu2PzPPhYlcIQcaZD kfdaRI7bCx4Uw== Archived-At: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:25:49 -0000 "Eggert, Lars" writes: > I wanted to point out that while this may sound like a reasonable > suggestion, it in fact doubles the maintenance load, because now both > the old and new need to be maintained in perpetuity. My hope was that the old format was generated by something that was part of Mailman, and so didn't require much maintenance. > If we have rough consensus for a change, that should by default mean > that the old way disappears (after a transition period if not > immediately.) True... I'd like to know if there was a rough consensus for change, in the sense "Do the users prefer the new system?", rather than the sense "Do the people who talk about the tools want something different?" After all, there's a serious loss of upward-compatibility here! Dale From nobody Mon Dec 14 18:47:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32DA21ACEB1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:47:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BlROwUiNrRWX for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00B9A1B29BB for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhk6 with SMTP id hk6so74138212pad.2 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:47:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WaetEQCdXk2Yr1IgIOjatiwRodtVsQxFgVUzRMY0JX0=; b=baI9fZ2WL7JbXNg1gwQwwpgKjBPmm6knqpWt+qKKdzuhhp6iBvcthuQGTzeDG9m7gt BmX6J58mMf5xouvk4plFPZNfCnryaXZvEQVQYnEVefZ7iOogsm0g+Oq7PuGwDPFKhBUX 410n1PiPeEMT9sYQCzEj4hd0nUqkEXFVxlsz0qqIOcCIXx/6xMeXQTrUdKO4Pz3GvsqF IieGXEoyKxkgZsMBnkMQG+9tFGxWB3xgMAuQdAmlsdj/CDhV92OfZg5HUUJ1S/3L9brq e7XoYwGMR5oZqUsKOqFbLrBte5GrljWaNTvvIkNWSkYg/j6Texhc3rGuu7m3qf5gC4ho eN2w== X-Received: by 10.67.5.69 with SMTP id ck5mr50807516pad.125.1450147673679; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4107:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4107:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6sm45103752pfm.58.2015.12.14.18.47.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:47:52 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <5669CF93.7050002@gmail.com> <5669E311.6060902@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566F7F57.2030809@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:47:51 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5669E311.6060902@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 02:47:58 -0000 On 11/12/2015 09:39, Robert Sparks wrote: > If you haven't seen it already, please review and comment on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sparks-genarea-mailarch-improvements/ Firstly, I think the new archive has already been improved since I first looked at it. It's much closer now to something I would consider using as a default choice. Secondly, no direct comments on the draft, but... Feature request: I think the little menu for FILTER BY TIME really lacks a Start/End option. To find that, you have to go through Modify Search/Advanced Search/Time/Custom/, by which point the tool has forgotten which list you want. Feature request: When you finally find that Start/End option, you have to type in the dates. I'd expect to find one of those little pop-up calendars. Question: Despite that, I managed to find the same (randomly chosen) message in the two archives: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg17113.html https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/cAzJlZ2cUsSMIVEgbvwc2dt9exI So my question is, why does the new archive wrap so aggressively in this view? (The old archive doesn't wrap plain text at all, as far as I know, which is also a pain.) We have a mixture of wrapped and flowed text in IETF mail. Wrapping everything at 72 produces ugliness, as you can see in my example. Wrapping isn't mentioned in RFC 6778, so I'm not sure where the decision to wrap at 72 came from. Feature request: don't wrap text that is already wrapped (pragmatically, let's say, if it's wrapped somewhere before 100, don't wrap it at 72). Note - this is not an issue for the message display below the search panel, where wrapping seems to be done intelligently. Thanks Brian From nobody Tue Dec 15 19:30:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908BE1A1EF9 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16PK-0PX38V6 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBB051A1EFA for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id nt2so6221469pab.3 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qc4kmGgHpnaWil3eDRq4p4JkwPnHWRm/nx/ySBGwZtc=; b=okh/z7SOBTJ/rI5dVAUgcQmAzufjtIPi4k4YY1wK/n0I5PNVey4b7IGsuSK1lGUUxm 6WIO2SawsrAzTDtWJ3uHDsgCEWfecfy+OYxIqltQDnrOKZTYotlqbxN+rG4xTv6geiGr zHz+sutfu4jiqbizrkYPi75Vyi+3kIxg0RJzQCGxwqyYXP+F/c9nnwfCU2Hrw/UfSeWX ZScSO9pEOwaHy2TPrRjJv8qX1/FrIMf/vo63vYdL868VzNZmbsfk6T8i0wK8DvQgl/Tz NEHBo0E+CDSzq6rf+C1romvmIqQifbU/I++vHCf6VA0vMlcQvHG69hmLGGDnTodx1X9n xOJw== X-Received: by 10.66.138.101 with SMTP id qp5mr59700789pab.113.1450236638668; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7554:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7554:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z63sm974499pfi.69.2015.12.15.19.30.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:37 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <5669CF93.7050002@gmail.com> <5669E311.6060902@nostrum.com> <566F7F57.2030809@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5670DADF.2030802@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:30:39 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <566F7F57.2030809@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Update Re: What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 03:30:40 -0000 I have just discovered that the wrapping problem is browser-dependent (ugly on Firefox 42.0, OK on IE 11). Maybe a CSS issue? So maybe this is a bug fix. Brian On 15/12/2015 15:47, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 11/12/2015 09:39, Robert Sparks wrote: >> If you haven't seen it already, please review and comment on >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sparks-genarea-mailarch-improvements/ > > Firstly, I think the new archive has already been improved since I first > looked at it. It's much closer now to something I would consider using as > a default choice. > > Secondly, no direct comments on the draft, but... > > Feature request: I think the little menu for FILTER BY TIME > really lacks a Start/End option. To find that, you have to go through > Modify Search/Advanced Search/Time/Custom/, by which point the tool > has forgotten which list you want. > > Feature request: When you finally find that Start/End option, you have > to type in the dates. I'd expect to find one of those little pop-up > calendars. > > Question: > Despite that, I managed to find the same (randomly chosen) message > in the two archives: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg17113.html > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/cAzJlZ2cUsSMIVEgbvwc2dt9exI > So my question is, why does the new archive wrap so aggressively > in this view? (The old archive doesn't wrap plain text at all, as > far as I know, which is also a pain.) > > We have a mixture of wrapped and flowed text in IETF mail. > Wrapping everything at 72 produces ugliness, as you can see > in my example. > > Wrapping isn't mentioned in RFC 6778, so I'm not sure where > the decision to wrap at 72 came from. > > Feature request: don't wrap text that is already wrapped (pragmatically, > let's say, if it's wrapped somewhere before 100, don't wrap it at 72). > > Note - this is not an issue for the message display below the search panel, > where wrapping seems to be done intelligently. > > Thanks > Brian > > > From nobody Wed Dec 16 14:56:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614A81A904B for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkZ8yb8oAVgA for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6504D1A9035 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.101]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id uNvk1r0072Bo0NV01Nw2L4; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:56:02 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id uNw11r0071nMCLR01Nw1Uk; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:56:02 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBGMu0Ln030795; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 17:56:00 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBGMu02r030790; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 17:56:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <566F7F57.2030809@gmail.com> (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 17:55:59 -0500 Message-ID: <87io3yhukg.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1450306562; bh=QO/r6RsiIK0vHioKH5wN8eNRc7p2VoXkOGk7EgZfH2s=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=VMitrg5eXZH/sBwA7yE12NxALwWTDTv4CniT6/gegZaJY7635Igfbfx4TZJhsZ1cT 4NzGP3dGc/zxUFMSS3M7fHY3kQVc2O82v7lt2oMWK/hKOi38G9au1RHFLuBRj/LDFW /7ULyYSaIQNrg5uq/vXeSqlH6tSPo7EtcSUJAWBdAkyNvt+dfOrmgMa0oofOMOruu3 AmIsPzYXvz5BMCTJVPoHsN6cJwXCsiEamk6aKb+RHZ2rHcH4UtlkX5HUoPwSBNeeEL yKDvTceuNa/X46obyvss9YfWOoEPwGbSN4RLb8tKV0ZLPLVwvASbatr7SBcORXtwDK kpVBfYxVRoT7Q== Archived-At: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rjsparks@nostrum.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:56:04 -0000 Brian E Carpenter writes: > We have a mixture of wrapped and flowed text in IETF mail. > Wrapping everything at 72 produces ugliness, as you can see > in my example. I don't see any ugliness, but that could be a browser difference. Certainly, I'd like to be able to get wrapping near column 80, as I'm a long-time Emacs user. My understanding is that the quasi-standard default for "fill text" commands is 72, left over from the old typewriter days. Dale From nobody Wed Dec 16 16:16:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5E11ABC0F for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:16:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kSEdh_Uyl7No for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com (mail-pa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 878211ABC74 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x231.google.com with SMTP id jx14so2953490pad.2 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:16:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/O2EaJ6U9hRWS8tAT2ZIFz1ItkuujsdXyUELudMmXgc=; b=si4fDBv0QjvSbYUcThwxWtBKf7TYbKYhwmHGJLQc3VMuBiyE6JVT/0+CHlu+cxgZTe SkFh3Uox8+p65MpDrsAi9LuVWGITD1ZQ3KX5+/JqWaLj1Ylxu/W0WsUQi2NRWO7Wz/K3 mslia0AMqLwpnGCnsrpzn+r8nWTcatC7pXpvIX/UR/8tt14SwwEIqkUl7vmWxn0MpeD4 HNFiA+YJOfZX4A9ACDDFC7BBFw2naDZQvIXqPujRzfmMZIDzoo1uV1/huWDXwejjHrdg 5KtIlR2R3Klztkh6WociIkxOjZF3pLgGX4jb3e1tIQSAUlgLbcBGYly6x0cNQIsf99XR Sz1Q== X-Received: by 10.66.216.200 with SMTP id os8mr68257307pac.143.1450311391269; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7363:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7363:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f5sm11597754pas.8.2015.12.16.16.16.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:16:29 -0800 (PST) To: "Dale R. Worley" References: <87io3yhukg.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5671FEE2.5030302@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:16:34 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87io3yhukg.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rjsparks@nostrum.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 00:16:33 -0000 On 17/12/2015 11:55, Dale R. Worley wrote: > Brian E Carpenter writes: >> We have a mixture of wrapped and flowed text in IETF mail. >> Wrapping everything at 72 produces ugliness, as you can see >> in my example. > > I don't see any ugliness, but that could be a browser difference. > Certainly, I'd like to be able to get wrapping near column 80, as I'm a > long-time Emacs user. My understanding is that the quasi-standard > default for "fill text" commands is 72, left over from the old > typewriter days. Yes, it is a browser issue, or perhaps a browser/CSS interaction issue. So it's a bug, not a feature request. Sure, as far as there's a "standard" it's 72, although I believe the true origin is that there were 80 columns on a standard punch card, of which the last 8 were reserved for the card number, so there were 72 useable columns. That bled over into printers and later into VDUs. Brian From nobody Thu Dec 17 07:45:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F371B2EA2 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 07:45:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uhCJBmJVAgUL for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 07:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B33431A0113 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 07:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-96-226-213-187.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [96.226.213.187]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id tBHFj7DA063665 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:45:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host pool-96-226-213-187.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [96.226.213.187] claimed to be unnumerable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87io3yhukg.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <5671FEE2.5030302@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <5672D883.8090209@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:45:07 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5671FEE2.5030302@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:45:10 -0000 Yes - this is a pretty hard problem, and the current tool doesn't make the best tradeoffs yet. There are some things we've tried on the datatracker that should work better here than what's currently deployed. RjS On 12/16/15 6:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 17/12/2015 11:55, Dale R. Worley wrote: >> Brian E Carpenter writes: >>> We have a mixture of wrapped and flowed text in IETF mail. >>> Wrapping everything at 72 produces ugliness, as you can see >>> in my example. >> I don't see any ugliness, but that could be a browser difference. >> Certainly, I'd like to be able to get wrapping near column 80, as I'm a >> long-time Emacs user. My understanding is that the quasi-standard >> default for "fill text" commands is 72, left over from the old >> typewriter days. > Yes, it is a browser issue, or perhaps a browser/CSS interaction issue. > So it's a bug, not a feature request. > > Sure, as far as there's a "standard" it's 72, although I believe the > true origin is that there were 80 columns on a standard punch card, of > which the last 8 were reserved for the card number, so there were 72 > useable columns. That bled over into printers and later into VDUs. > > Brian > From nobody Thu Dec 17 08:13:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96EC1B2F23 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:13:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agE6rf3WuTCJ for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AD0C1B2F20 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from Orochi.local (99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id tBHGCxQR066229 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:12:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Brian E Carpenter , Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87h9jq6zkj.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <5669CF93.7050002@gmail.com> <5669E311.6060902@nostrum.com> <566F7F57.2030809@gmail.com> <5670DADF.2030802@gmail.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <5672DF0B.2090402@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:12:59 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5670DADF.2030802@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Update Re: What's happening to the e-mail archives? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:13:07 -0000 On 12/15/15 21:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I have just discovered that the wrapping problem is browser-dependent > (ugly on Firefox 42.0, OK on IE 11). Maybe a CSS issue? > > So maybe this is a bug fix. Can I get you to send a bug to ? In general, when you see behavior on the web that varies between browsers, it's an indication that someone has a bug. For the sake of the web as a whole, it's better if we fix these bugs rather than work around them. For background: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/06/introducing-webcompat-com/ /a From nobody Fri Dec 18 14:13:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6AC1B3978 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 14:13:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.065 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.065 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ucz3WQkxkyxt for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 14:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CB0C1B3961 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 14:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.101]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id vACb1r0022Bo0NV01ADAn3; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:13:10 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id vAD91r00F1nMCLR01AD9kz; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:13:10 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBIMD8HJ007133 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:13:08 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBIMD8Vo007130; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:13:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5672D883.8090209@nostrum.com> (rjsparks@nostrum.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:13:08 -0500 Message-ID: <87lh8rflsb.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1450476790; bh=bzjaRwGeUlINXuPThbZNOOpDT+CM7aO2VFAdlnKM8oA=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=dWsyXAoP+vdO6fKfrFbj8jdF3j3sMcL8Sh2DszEshhtC6UsTx13U0lvgFyXnTyV0p C6TDBxHoL58fhh/Fa1K0lwIYfMwPXSyhYoG/WdRjz5VCAuQcVm9ysP9ABJCqNN4z/e K65baSxeHn8SI+bgRgyo1woLpQiWtmY8rEvej+RVCjKLyb05qK3xUrVyySS5u1mRqa qbd5gnnDV5owrAJVESSBPu3Fd681ndSD7eb6rkjmsu73+KmKttc0C2vy0WfEAXxK7r rZj/LGoy4GVCv9/Mg2CaAWIpgAbYjMRAEePeB4fuiC8kqMwR+TGrES4nYPOQ2f/+nX 0Mpgiruc/2j0w== Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Improvements to the archives (was: What's happening to the e-mail archives?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:13:13 -0000 Here are some suggestions that I think would improve the usability of the new IETF mailing list archive web pages. This list is not carefully studied, so it should be considered a basis for discussion rather than my fixed opinions. (In all of these, "window" means the browser window, the space in which the browser displays a page.) * Usable in "profile" The pages should be usable if the proportions of the window are "profile", which has height about 1.5 times width. The new page looks ... odd when it is put into profile size. On my screen, the Subject listing is folded at every word. * It's a web page, not an app All features should be accessible without Java, Javascript, Flash, or HTML 5. * Vertical space is precious It is important that information be provided in context, which generally requires plenty of screen space above and below the datum that the user is looking at. Thus, it is important to maximize the amount of vertical space available for displaying things. There should be no non-scrollable elements at the top or bottom of the window. Large information items, those that can't be displayed in their entirety, should be displayed as separate pages rather than in little "viewport" windows in other pages. If it's necessary to display, e.g., two large items, such as a list of message identifications along with a single message, the window should be partitioned as frames, which in most browsers allows the user to re-allocate space between the two scrolling subwindows. (It looks like the new archive page does that, but at least on my Firefox, doesn't have any little graphic dingus on the dividing line between them to show that the user can move it, so I didn't discover that functionality until I was reviewing this item.) In the current archive page, the sequence of items on the page is: - "IETF ... Sign In" - "Modify search ... Ungroup ... Search ... Export" - "Date ... Subject ... From ... List" - the list-of-messages - "nnnn Messages" - a single message - "Email archive vx.x.x". There's also lots of whitespace between the items in the list of messages. In comparison, the maximum number of messages listable in the new archive page is 13 (on my system), but in the old archive page, it is typically 20 or more (using a substantially larger font). * Don't use too much whitespace Whitespace makes a page *look nicer* but it reduces the amount of context that can be shown. The new design is particularly unfortunate in the amount of whitespace on the left and right sides, which forces the subject lines in the message list to be folded more often than is necessary. * Font choice is important The current archive page favors tiny sans-serif fonts, some of them having thin stroke-widths and light colors. Why, I don't know, as no commercial web site seems to do that. Serif fonts are a lot easier to read and using a light color gratuitously reduces readability. * Things should be links That way the user's reflexes work correctly. Also, the browser's copy-link-URL function works correctly. In particular, it helps if an item in a list is a link that will display that item (in another window). In the new archive, screen space is taken at the bottom of the message display to give a link to the page that displays the message. But it would be much preferable if the item in the list-of-messages was that link, so middle-click could easily create a new tab with the message. (In particular, I could go through a thread doing middle-click on each message, rather than repeating left-click, mouse down to bottom, middle-click, mouse up to list, ...) Also, that would free up one more line for the message display. There would probably have to be some Javascript so that left-click in the list would display the message in the message window (rather than fetching it into the whole window), but presumably that can be done while allowing middle-click to do the normal fetch-in-another-window. * Thread display The new archive page has a thread display option, but it doesn't show what messages are in response to what messages. The details of that information is useful to some degree, but the big benefit is that the structure makes each thread group visually distinct, as only thread-start messages are at the left margin. In the new page, the subject lines are so tightly folded one has to nearly read them, rather than just scanning for lines that don't look like the lines above them, to find the thread starts. * Getting a list of the last year's messages It's not clear how one can get a text list of the last year's messaged (e.g.). I can click on "FILTER BY TIME ... Past year", but that doesn't put the past year's messages in the list-of-messages; the list-of-messages remains one of those annoying auto-extending lists that you have to pull down repeatedly in order to force it to load everything that should be in it. This item is a derivative of my strategy, "If you want to do serious searching on a list, get it into an Emacs buffer." Emacs (and the Un*x stuff that can be accessed through it) have been under development for ~40 years, and no web project is going to replicate its functionality (at any reasonable cost). * Truncating Subjects with "..." is not desirable Generally, I don't like truncating long but important data items with "...", because often it is the end of the string that is important to see if I care about that item. For instance, the last message to Dispatch is displayed as: [dispatch] Draft new version: draft-holmberg-dispatch-rfc7315-updat... What you can't see is the part you can't predict from context, namely "updates-03". And if I copy the message list with ctrl-A, ctrl-C, I still don't get the full subject line, making it hard to search the list with other tools. * Sender's names The old archive pages give the "real" sender's names, whereas the new archive pages give their e-mail addresses. The real sender's names are more pleasant and easier to read. * "References" and "referenced by" links The old display of a message listed Follow-Ups: References: Prev by Date: Next by Date: Previous by thread: Next by thread: Index(es): Date Thread Most of links show the author (useful) and Subject (no so useful) of the message linked to. The new display of a message lists View by Date View by Thread I've frequently used the Follow-Ups and References and it would be helpful if they were continued. Dale From nobody Sun Dec 20 19:37:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B9A1A882C for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:37:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.465 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A_z1bLAhgrLD for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D404F1A87F1 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:37:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-16v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.112]) by resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id w3dB1r0012S2Q5R013dKys; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 03:37:19 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-ch2-16v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id w3dJ1r00E1nMCLR013dJeL; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 03:37:19 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBL3bHkZ006442 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:37:17 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBL3bHPT006438; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:37:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87lh8rflsb.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> (worley@ariadne.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:37:17 -0500 Message-ID: <87mvt4eaky.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1450669039; bh=5JZEj8Jxiu2KG+Sd3G5AnLvaszvqDg4Rb/Kkux6+RcE=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=gjhBrx//vGaKNJeqJzpzmQBX1TJ2BtC2jQj5RTPPZNcNf1D4aT1FXBvRGiwyWr9nr wVTdL7gR0yZ0V1/RT8YewtuuMhG90+9AfGvk8WWdf8ntIyjQV8ASedFVR0Rtpvl11H 7BB7B+kLvpXiHDJOTKluOYuh+tboOEaP+kcctYJ7xA/oW7KxU/WReixq9ZzB8Gy6Ro HmgC4if4slx8wyF1y3KwXLd5RdwSwGVps39zxOqgHX/86iLx3cxhf/MX4eLOtudJ5H Ck+d+hradSOmctIl5aW/kuYSNxDViZcpJplxQigNLxruI0JUQYfWBzJGRR3qRIQwBk Xs6ASJ+Mk8/gw== Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Improvements to the archives (was: What's happening to the e-mail archives?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 03:37:22 -0000 Let me add this: * Accessible to search engines The structure of links in the archive shall make all messages visible (as individual pages) to the spiders of search engines. At least one URL for each message shall contain the mailing list name (or a substitute for it) so that a "site:..." restriction given to a search engine will confine the search to a single mailing list. E.g., "site:www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dispatch draft-holmberg-dispatch-rfc7315-updates". Dale From nobody Sun Dec 20 19:52:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05A01A884C for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:52:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.065 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.065 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id siIx_SCS4htC for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B754C1A884B for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.235]) by resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id w3sJ1r00254zqzk013sJTt; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 03:52:18 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([73.143.237.82]) by resomta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id w3sH1r0011nMCLR013sH9P; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 03:52:18 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id tBL3qG7M007218 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:52:16 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id tBL3qGt4007215; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:52:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87lh8rflsb.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> (worley@ariadne.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:52:16 -0500 Message-ID: <87k2o8e9vz.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1450669938; bh=iorJtS4+ggJMnbxawvvVFpx+dLokLF32atAzCOuS6ew=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=lpqcCYLFjYrzsu2VKL1AJd8EIGUh/uKteCr7qPt8ILDCBkR7ryVxm6sUsUhgZaeZC YBzJWLwzpFPI1BsLGyRTjPgigC8g3n9kJlS49spFRou0Eb+Lcm+/ePmcEHGOPoziLs gCe95K5exBdRP0cc4QhBlOcKZuj1mm1PVGh6lOGapsoXYnX73rv/2tWjX/SxjSVtx2 Z+85CvWm7rwQVy3lK4l/00681OvijLJF0OSY7aTfKLmMFGV2nw1VT58c2QydqaS1Pg 1XEURHKrA/410d8VkUd+wFDjOZjk3OfxMRMyXyae6ZL7cv/9xC6+wK5YD/j5hWPWjz IsTYgRKteaM6Q== Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Improvements to the archives (was: What's happening to the e-mail archives?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 03:52:20 -0000 Now that I've written up my issues, it's becoming clearer to me that the underlying problem is one of the paradigm or philosophy of the interface. One possible paradigm is that the archive pages are an *interface to a search tool*. Once you think of it this way, it's clear that is what RFC 6778 is driving at. The table of contents starts with: 1. Introduction ....................................................2 2. List Search and Archive Requirements ............................3 2.1. Search and Browsing ........................................3 and the first sentences of the abstract are: The IETF makes heavy use of email lists to conduct its work. Participants frequently need to search and browse the archives of these lists and have asked for improved search capabilities. and the first paragraph of the Introduction is: The IETF makes heavy use of email lists to conduct its work. Participants frequently need to search the archives of these lists and have asked for improved search capabilities, particularly when the search needs to cover a large period of time or cross several lists. For instance, document editors, shepherds, working group chairs, and area directors may need to review all discussion of a particular draft. That discussion may be spread across the working group list, one or more directorate lists, and the IETF general list. Occasionally, work impacts multiple groups, possibly in different areas, and the search must cover additional working group lists. What this paradigm envisions is: - The user formulates a query that will isolate the messages he wants to see. - He clicks the button. - The archive returns a list of those messages. - He reads the messages. In this paradigm, exactly how the interface displays the messages is unimportant, as the user will go through them all one at a time. The paradigm that I use is that the archive *displays the messages in the archive* and that I then use one of several external tools to identify and examine the messages I'm interested in, viz.: - Scanning the list of messages by eye, particularly the list-in-thread-order page. (For practical purposes, the list is usually restricted to a time-based segment of the archive, e.g., six months.) - Searching the list (incrementally!) using the ctrl-F capability of my browser. - Copying the index page text, inserting it into an Emacs buffer, and searching the Emacs buffer (using any of the Emacs search facilities, or a Un*x command applied to the buffer). - Querying the list archives using a search engine. (People have observed that Google searchs most business's web sites better than the "search" feature of the web sites.) This paradigm is a lot more demanding of how the archive contents are displayed. The first search method requires that the index be organized in a way that the critical features are immediately accessible to the feature-detectors of the human visual system (as opposed to requiring the user to read the text). The remaining methods require that the text content of the index page fully contain the information that is relevant to the search (generally, Subject, From, and Date). Note that from this point of view, RFC 6778 appears to be the specification of a search feature to be added to the archive, rather than a specification that "everything not listed here will be removed". This was what led me to a sense of being badly done by in the new system -- the support of my method of using the archives was removed, apparently without warning. Dale