From nobody Wed Jul 1 00:52:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51753A09BB for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 00:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AAxu2CLfYiqf for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 00:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.uni-kl.de (mailgw1.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:120::220]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0AE33A09BA for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 00:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:ef34:0:ff:fe00:65]) by mailgw1.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 0617qI6i105391 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:52:19 +0200 Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id 0617qIR1002222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:52:18 +0200 Received: (from auerswal@localhost) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 0617qHPY002214; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:52:17 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:52:17 +0200 From: Erik Auerswald To: John R Levine Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200701075217.GA32199@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: <20200630171731.D0E901BDB9F8@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RFC PDF crashes viewer X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 07:52:26 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 09:10:23PM -0400, John R Levine wrote: > >(Background for my initial observation: When you give an assignment > >to students and their favorite PDF viewer crashes on the required > >reading material, they’ll simply say they can’t do the assignment > >instead of trying out other readers.) If there are Ubuntu users among your students that experienced the problem, perhaps you could ask them to add a "mee too" to the Ubuntu bug report (Launchpad / Ubuntu One account required; https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/1885313/+affectsmetoo)? Perhaps they can add additional affected version information (e.g., if Ubuntu 20.04 LTS is affected as well, as it most probably is). > Since the PDF RFCs display without trouble in the default viewers on > Windows, MacOS, Android, iOS, and Chrome, I am impressed at the > creativity of your students who went to the effort to find a PDF > viewer that didn't work. Since evince is the default PDF viewer for GNOME, it is the default PDF viewer for many popular GNU/Linux distributions (Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, Fedora, and probably quite a few more). Since quite a few students tend to use GNU/Linux, this is does not need creativity at all. The files are displayed correctly without any warning or error messages using other free software PDF viewers, e.g., Okular, xpdf and the built-in Firefox PDF viewer. They are displayed correctly, but with warning and/or error messages, using the free software PDF viewers MuPDF and gv. Okular, the default KDE PDF viewer, shows an obviously wrong date for the attached XML file (I do not have all the details, since I do not use Okular myself). The free software tool pdftk can be used to create a PDF file with attached XML that works without problems in evince (and all the other mentioned PDF viewers). So there are workarounds. I would like for evince to become more robust. I do not expect the RFC PDF renderings to be perfect. Thanks, Erik -- Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick From nobody Wed Jul 1 01:20:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7E33A0AA6 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 01:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q_-Mgw8ORhOK for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 01:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.uni-kl.de (mailgw1.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:120::220]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C35D3A0A9A for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 01:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:ef34:0:ff:fe00:65]) by mailgw1.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 0618KmHp142198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:20:49 +0200 Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id 0618Kmi4006211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:20:48 +0200 Received: (from auerswal@localhost) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 0618KmeC006210; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:20:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:20:48 +0200 From: Erik Auerswald To: John Levine Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200701082048.GB32199@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: <20200626203214.GA16307@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20200630171731.D0E901BDB9F8@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200630171731.D0E901BDB9F8@ary.qy> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RFC PDF crashes viewer X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 08:20:53 -0000 Hi John, On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 01:17:31PM -0400, John Levine wrote: > In article <20200626203214.GA16307@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> you write: > >I agree with Carsten that this is a bug in evince, but evince works fine > >for most PDF files out there, including many that Firefox cannot display > >correctly. Since MuPDF produces error and warning messages, and evince > >crashes, it seems to me as if it were likely that the PDF versions of > >recent RFCs do have issues. > > The PDF versions of our RFCs are in the PDF/A-3U profile of PDF. PDF/A > is intended to be bitrot-resistant, with no external references and > such, and the various subprofiles allow various options. We take > the output of xml2rfc and run it through a commercial package from > Callas software to embed the XML and make it PDF/A compliant. Thanks for the detailed information. :-) > In my experience, open source software that handles complex formats > like PDF is pretty flaky around the edges, particularly when dealing > with featuers like embdded files that aren't very common. In my experience, free and open source software is often of higher quality than non-free software. YMMV. > All of our PDFs work fine in Acrobat and the Apple and Google viewers > so I doubt that the files are bad. > > As a workaround, if you run the XML through "xml2rfc --pdf" you'll get > a version without the embedded file which is less likely to trip over > bugs in the processing software. Thanks, and thanks again for your additional email showing the additional xml2rfc options used. I do think this is quite useful, because the XML file is supposed to be the canonical information source, and thus IMHO everybody should have access to the needed tools and information (i.e., settings to use) to work from the XML. Other workarounds are using Okular, Firefox, MuPDF, or gv instead of evince (both MuPDF and gv produce error/warning messages, but do display the PDF contents correctly (I think)). Yet another workaround is to use the free software pdftk to transform the PDF: pdftk unpack_files rfc8798.pdf pdftk rfc8798.pdf cat output rfc8798-no_xml.pdf pdftk rfc8798-no_xml.pdf attach_files output rfc8798-pdftk.pdf The result "rfc8798-pdftk.pdf" works fine in evince and does not produce error/warning messages in MuPDF (gv still produces error messages). Thanks, Erik -- [T]he most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough. -- Eric S. Raymond From nobody Wed Jul 1 09:39:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F513A124D for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:39:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovrm3AdYPvUO for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DABB3A12B9 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:55140 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jqflS-0002x7-HY; Wed, 01 Jul 2020 09:39:14 -0700 To: Dick Hardt , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <137ba2ac-c0b4-9131-1a59-bcb344ee7750@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 18:39:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HMrKCUbsIJT5OV9UkPdgEBgCoQiQD7D6u" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, dick.hardt@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing links in draft on tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 16:39:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HMrKCUbsIJT5OV9UkPdgEBgCoQiQD7D6u Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BBtnasm5k9RJgfGS2qXOkFEQm8h7MH3K2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Dick Hardt , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <137ba2ac-c0b4-9131-1a59-bcb344ee7750@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing links in draft on tools.ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: --BBtnasm5k9RJgfGS2qXOkFEQm8h7MH3K2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dick, Please see the list footer about reporting issues related to tools.ietf.o= rg. You'll get faster response that way ... It looks like things broke a bit when -08 was submitted so soon after -07 that the servers at tools.ietf.org didn't have time to sync it from the master repository before it was gone. I've updated the information about existing versions on the tools servers= , so things should look better now. Regards, Henrik On 2020-07-01 03:19, Dick Hardt wrote: > Hello, checking in on this issue. Thanks! >=20 > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 2:16 PM Dick Hardt wrote= : >=20 >> Hello >> >> My draft-hardt-xauth-protocol drafts are not showing up correctly on >> tools.ietf.org >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol >> >> properly redirects to >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-10 >> >> but there are no links to -07, -08, -09 at the top >> >> and any version shows up given the full URL, but 07 - 10 links are not= >> shown at the top, so someone with a full URL link will not know that -= 10 is >> the latest. >> >> FYI: 07 - 10 where all published close together in time. >> >> >> /Dick >> >> =E1=90=A7 >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --BBtnasm5k9RJgfGS2qXOkFEQm8h7MH3K2-- --HMrKCUbsIJT5OV9UkPdgEBgCoQiQD7D6u Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Thu, 02 Jul 2020 10:00:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <137ba2ac-c0b4-9131-1a59-bcb344ee7750@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <137ba2ac-c0b4-9131-1a59-bcb344ee7750@levkowetz.com> From: Dick Hardt Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 10:00:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: Henrik Levkowetz Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000e47c905a9785934" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing links in draft on tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:00:43 -0000 --0000000000000e47c905a9785934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Henrik Thanks for getting the issue! FYI: The links are now fixed for 05 - 10. The 00 - 04 pages only list 00 - 06 versions in the header. The -02 version is what Google shows first, but fortunately when someone clicks -06 they now see -10. ALSO: I had sent an email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org and got no response. It was not clear to me how to file an issue at Trac. On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:39 AM Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Dick, > > Please see the list footer about reporting issues related to > tools.ietf.org. > > You'll get faster response that way ... > > It looks like things broke a bit when -08 was submitted so soon after > -07 that the servers at tools.ietf.org didn't have time to sync it > from the master repository before it was gone. > > I've updated the information about existing versions on the tools servers= , > so things should look better now. > > Regards, > > Henrik > > On 2020-07-01 03:19, Dick Hardt wrote: > > Hello, checking in on this issue. Thanks! > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 2:16 PM Dick Hardt wrote= : > > > >> Hello > >> > >> My draft-hardt-xauth-protocol drafts are not showing up correctly on > >> tools.ietf.org > >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol > >> > >> properly redirects to > >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-10 > >> > >> but there are no links to -07, -08, -09 at the top > >> > >> and any version shows up given the full URL, but 07 - 10 links are not > >> shown at the top, so someone with a full URL link will not know that > -10 is > >> the latest. > >> > >> FYI: 07 - 10 where all published close together in time. > >> > >> > >> /Dick > >> > >> =E1=90=A7 > >> > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > --0000000000000e47c905a9785934 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Henrik

Thanks for getting the issue!=

FYI: The links are now fixed for 05 - 10. The 00 = - 04 pages only list 00 - 06 versions in the header. The -02 version is wha= t Google shows first, but fortunately when someone clicks -06 they now see = -10.

ALSO: I had sent an email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org and got no respons= e. It was not clear to me how to file an issue at Trac.

<= /div>


On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:39 AM Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com> wrote:
Hi Dick,

Please see the list footer about reporting issues related to tools.ietf.org= .

You'll get faster response that way ...

It looks like things broke a bit when -08 was submitted so soon after
-07 that the servers at tools.ietf.org didn't have time to sync it
from the master repository before it was gone.

I've updated the information about existing versions on the tools serve= rs,
so things should look better now.

Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Henrik

On 2020-07-01 03:19, Dick Hardt wrote:
> Hello, checking in on this issue. Thanks!
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 2:16 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> My draft-hardt-xauth-protocol drafts are not showing up correctly = on
>> tools.ietf.org
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-har= dt-xauth-protocol
>>
>> properly redirects to
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= hardt-xauth-protocol-10
>>
>> but there are no links to -07, -08, -09 at the top
>>
>> and any version shows up given the full URL, but 07 - 10 links are= not
>> shown at the top, so someone with a full URL link will not know th= at -10 is
>> the latest.
>>
>> FYI: 07 - 10 where all published close together in time.
>>
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>> =E1=90=A7
>>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-disc= uss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-= discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>

--0000000000000e47c905a9785934-- From nobody Thu Jul 2 12:19:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549603A0365 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zYCqYTDQw8N7 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 897DB3A03ED for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:65188 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jr4jd-0005My-Jm; Thu, 02 Jul 2020 12:19:02 -0700 To: Dick Hardt References: <137ba2ac-c0b4-9131-1a59-bcb344ee7750@levkowetz.com> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <6acba120-3777-6638-e24c-6e1b6a5908ab@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 21:18:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2IICE96Cnr4EuAAbFv6vh8gPTM3lNu7HE" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, dick.hardt@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing links in draft on tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 19:19:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2IICE96Cnr4EuAAbFv6vh8gPTM3lNu7HE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="xId5s8MbwwrdNeCRaMjMaR7SoVNfnTGs7"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Dick Hardt Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <6acba120-3777-6638-e24c-6e1b6a5908ab@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing links in draft on tools.ietf.org References: <137ba2ac-c0b4-9131-1a59-bcb344ee7750@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: --xId5s8MbwwrdNeCRaMjMaR7SoVNfnTGs7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dick, On 2020-07-02 19:00, Dick Hardt wrote: > Hi Henrik >=20 > Thanks for getting the issue! >=20 > FYI: The links are now fixed for 05 - 10. The 00 - 04 pages only list 0= 0 - > 06 versions in the header. The -02 version is what Google shows first, = but > fortunately when someone clicks -06 they now see -10. The 00-04 pages will also be regenerated, with full information, but it will take a little more time. I didn't poke those manually. > ALSO: I had sent an email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org and got no respon= se. > It was not clear to me how to file an issue at Trac. Huh. Ok; I guess it ran into the spam filter, then. That doesn't happen= too often with mail from IETFers, but could happen. I'll investigate. Henrik >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:39 AM Henrik Levkowetz > wrote: >=20 >> Hi Dick, >> >> Please see the list footer about reporting issues related to >> tools.ietf.org. >> >> You'll get faster response that way ... >> >> It looks like things broke a bit when -08 was submitted so soon after >> -07 that the servers at tools.ietf.org didn't have time to sync it >> from the master repository before it was gone. >> >> I've updated the information about existing versions on the tools serv= ers, >> so things should look better now. >> >> Regards, >> >> Henrik >> >> On 2020-07-01 03:19, Dick Hardt wrote: >> > Hello, checking in on this issue. Thanks! >> > >> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 2:16 PM Dick Hardt wr= ote: >> > >> >> Hello >> >> >> >> My draft-hardt-xauth-protocol drafts are not showing up correctly o= n >> >> tools.ietf.org >> >> >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol >> >> >> >> properly redirects to >> >> >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-10 >> >> >> >> but there are no links to -07, -08, -09 at the top >> >> >> >> and any version shows up given the full URL, but 07 - 10 links are = not >> >> shown at the top, so someone with a full URL link will not know tha= t >> -10 is >> >> the latest. >> >> >> >> FYI: 07 - 10 where all published close together in time. >> >> >> >> >> >> /Dick >> >> >> >> =E1=90=A7 >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ___________________________________________________________ >> > Tools-discuss mailing list >> > Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > >> > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> > >> > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > >> >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --xId5s8MbwwrdNeCRaMjMaR7SoVNfnTGs7-- --2IICE96Cnr4EuAAbFv6vh8gPTM3lNu7HE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl7+Mx4ACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqGfRAA0JmcPo2cEo4tyyteCMwfgNyrkaFqd8k/NFzDLClEf79AQBk/VAsBh4cz MvFL8xuS840KC9eOvNs4fZ6W6U8PmilintUMfYcz3swNB5T1r9xV4aC22fxMk9zt f9Bgl71ovnUC3cS+sGX7QGfyRDykXhR4+xw+V0/zx92qRM/68uVXdYhg32qZFTGH 3qbfF/vsUcIJXbp0DoTN60igZpyz9Sps8fugvKV1Ba16jPIsQBsBUP2AwviJYu27 vEckyuy2XdPoNim3/LIzwWdTB/ZSXYrcPeCpcgOIa5Vn2Ua5QUDB9/e7LFYOD5KI ZrJ8O86TcInAnwUxsIakLBk91Sc/9SP6+2E1tOzAjqiiHU8NPYBYZ3S0T8a/3ltq xIESZQgjAl/cAgwG+G/Xh4UsVeSTBuo9Yo4k3SYrgRB8IVA/t9W4Bl52gkKb0kWu 9u6V5jo4TrtB73w/81qg5VlAC1vUMtDaCRVqpTmOThQqtme0SYWKiBG7TovrKneA l4eHvhjDlHaw5XWEzJVgFAvdV1+WS/HWycxeMla4c6znloijzd/9bZgRh13WmrPN 78GpnuMCSNO6t1VHpLi/EPsgbkGKJ8NzaRRZAMFEuK+B6JNiqP9NSZs65JBGGfpO Q5fjiQybi/6TV2ENyyPLynU/ulT1b2n4YMlGIQ5XKibb8sTzB9E= =36se -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2IICE96Cnr4EuAAbFv6vh8gPTM3lNu7HE-- From nobody Sat Jul 4 18:46:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729523A005F for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:46:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id faAG5V5gTI76 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AA243A005B for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 89331 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2020 01:46:46 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=15cee.5f013106.k2007; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=tTMRwTOAF6zFJ5PFUMx6dMWrQOTwGIemI6ltx0EPYVY=; b=kxWcrNu4FB+tGQebGZfzPd1/3lXU1xANpQ4URUkCCsaZvz6N6HCe7NqcPABoADKcpoxLtiTobTx3vL/ldutz6RjbWo1v3asVmqHpQqqlbwco+MYOAUNFqsu6rcEG9R1YXWbkzxkvzfXDCjbLLhQTZ7/bY10+cmNwAebLtLCYy2SX1rPN7VCMtVK0kGX4Z2pglTFpaAgOFRnmivzYQyWbYURzv+XxdWBpDCM/JHfa4iAYhmJN+ncdS5bUZeRnHZle Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 05 Jul 2020 01:46:46 -0000 Date: 4 Jul 2020 21:46:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (OSX 407 2020-02-09) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Blank tools agenda for 108 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2020 01:46:51 -0000 The page at https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/108/ has all of the decorations but no calendar. agenda.txt looks OK so I'm guessing that something crashed due to all of the room names being blank. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Mon Jul 6 03:27:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404FD3A1319 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ObY3FbU3BDY for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B4CE3A1318 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:58615 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jsOLj-0004UE-2J; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 03:27:49 -0700 To: "John R. Levine" , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <8048cf81-98e3-13a7-457d-a7af950ee331@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:27:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6asR9MHjNgVvMXv9gJsDQRvnV6ocpPAnw" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, johnl@iecc.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Blank tools agenda for 108 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 10:27:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --6asR9MHjNgVvMXv9gJsDQRvnV6ocpPAnw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0jCVPf14Xn1DFdU5Cv9MlWBtv4xf9lTmg"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: "John R. Levine" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <8048cf81-98e3-13a7-457d-a7af950ee331@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Blank tools agenda for 108 References: In-Reply-To: --0jCVPf14Xn1DFdU5Cv9MlWBtv4xf9lTmg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, On 2020-07-05 03:46, John R. Levine wrote: > The page at https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/108/ has all of the decoratio= ns=20 > but no calendar. agenda.txt looks OK so I'm guessing that something=20 > crashed due to all of the room names being blank. Thanks for the alert! I'll investigate. Henrik --0jCVPf14Xn1DFdU5Cv9MlWBtv4xf9lTmg-- --6asR9MHjNgVvMXv9gJsDQRvnV6ocpPAnw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl8C/JUACgkQTptXS4+7 FxoUdhAAyZCzI/XNv9KKKjUYcU9pq6QLiZL/KO95FL2uojrzYXkP76o5W+vw9XCy OIJ01BKUzgj7EXFIK+sA1Vvln4+nvUNAuJ79vKX5tybN2R9rOenaZiRkuR9UolNp 92gg2yixVAT6Cetsfb4nnkzKFtSdAJ1/OFWYgx0u7gIFeT3OF2Ce+/e1k9vEBiFE Hz98qnnFiIfEeLCg7WBWNjsA91gR4+YPVkS1IHi3n2x0yd3OIC7GPYj8K7c5oZRz zsM0pdAj7DoffDPbKcYIkuy5vt1h28Ju9KGUsk23L9ZzjXttNOCCaUbedvey7NXo iPLz8Tt5dneWxzwYlzk1VpW9Dl4nIoFSkwG1vyC/mJQxwJgbjRiroA2PyL5SF/zX 57zD8KpPoxLuOpXLj/e/cznX3mLSKZSqZsnKiB2TcyDT25pmuC0JL+ZrWmecLT1r XTCLhcjacdalXlIhU8yL3qJ6k/eziKNcCbnvo8rdZv++Zi5XwQzoX1hj5ZuV7fhV G5+IR7xjgOsWpQg683QM2S1wn22iZXNUQ0O1V62bQpVDFs6Yxcku/SOWGJBz1OZq HiT+3ViIjUbu88oMOqzU/jwPQFcMSx1I5FiKqvgeZhZ06ZujNQlUOWa9bLOFn0dU p/9COXLNzzB5Nnheknlpl3iu98O9G0hkwkeb3Vjup/lA30F0Po8= =TS/2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6asR9MHjNgVvMXv9gJsDQRvnV6ocpPAnw-- From nobody Mon Jul 6 03:52:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220B53A07AF for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:52:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fviZqMCr9Llh for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D6663A07AB for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:58786 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jsOja-00041J-TO; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 03:52:27 -0700 To: "John R. Levine" , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8048cf81-98e3-13a7-457d-a7af950ee331@levkowetz.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <0ea94721-fc85-a412-2cdd-3966db213bbc@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:52:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8048cf81-98e3-13a7-457d-a7af950ee331@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wVHFUbuRjGQ6wtU51cqT6iOvTel0LvoPM" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, johnl@iecc.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Blank tools agenda for 108 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 10:52:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --wVHFUbuRjGQ6wtU51cqT6iOvTel0LvoPM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ouEmKVJsQx7hl8gxUcewleGo4pqrJTOe9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: "John R. Levine" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <0ea94721-fc85-a412-2cdd-3966db213bbc@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Blank tools agenda for 108 References: <8048cf81-98e3-13a7-457d-a7af950ee331@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <8048cf81-98e3-13a7-457d-a7af950ee331@levkowetz.com> --ouEmKVJsQx7hl8gxUcewleGo4pqrJTOe9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-07-06 12:27, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > On 2020-07-05 03:46, John R. Levine wrote: >> The page at https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/108/ has all of the decorati= ons=20 >> but no calendar. agenda.txt looks OK so I'm guessing that something=20 >> crashed due to all of the room names being blank. >=20 > Thanks for the alert! I'll investigate. This was a format error in the file listing the audio stream URLs. I'm slightly chuffed to see that my scripts to mark up the text agenda se= ems to have dealt with the additional days in a reasonable manner. Henrik --ouEmKVJsQx7hl8gxUcewleGo4pqrJTOe9-- --wVHFUbuRjGQ6wtU51cqT6iOvTel0LvoPM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl8DAmMACgkQTptXS4+7 FxotvQ/+OPI/fDMxQp7qXAlbcKSAzpHt6ZJMNoQJHBkM5aHC+KU4ISjJY5tQVMHI dKVZJCxM9vlM7NuWXJlcdux5A8HSxfYF8I7Rxz2pPmnwVQhFk1X3n5EKRD/8Fp9g VEZ5egL1JmFus8m0hqr1CgeWb/2A4nIshOmi5N55zdiPz4V6+f6d4tNOp2Ed3JMl SpgJp1+ahymSvR/eo2teawE5ED8ufURYQ8/pVuLBxr80OY0w6R1GnnlQZxS8b0iN lHlYQwq9LTQ8R0YYdTHXjkGJE4g5GoEvQ13kn/I4p14iOsXrKEutmMloaHsxhkBA GMFXzCEDZDNHcAIGHTDVtPQtYblrvDhQENEM1WGDdz6yNCMFIgygu5N8Z15NdCU6 UVBhWjtA5sa8k5XsJ2s78AdtrSVuGLTjKv16RSkmbIPj5J7GKzR1ZhmIOzZKmrjK aOewjstOBKBsdKyu9hNzMWy2LoV9QHmQIwU8nn1BoH5hf2BRlswSbPkXjef00BUd eD7Z6Nx7dlfkdRefIfIkwWKpOo+Eox8haxqI8fg5dgeT/hiivLD8qWHNvxUXIVxS MT3u4OgcxXsCoZJyyTo+34hj0DG8sfrvTeP3zEVD6HCavNEQRrG8TmvBZj7AvyyP 7o9n+PCTYy1bIWCrjvVNp4KsvYGr+TyRt32Hsc4Zz6fs3HWiWn0= =UCtT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wVHFUbuRjGQ6wtU51cqT6iOvTel0LvoPM-- From nobody Mon Jul 6 14:37:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064413A0B49 for ; 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a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=qRhNSYTLlROoNAY56vtuzH7nRkQ=; b=atDd2vhu9+S eLpvre9lW4U6LgN1xiop0mJMKQqay0bzeG20TztKjsqACYmUD3iq6xERQnark49X vOZa65qy8l4q7tjJ6W95aClgK6SRDlwLmL4hk1Nn81hNJBJ/OR/SnyNKDf3a8MKK O868J3D4H0gmEqgMyxftCwd7xLGP+IQ4= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a38.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2A1F6B41A6; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:36:59 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a38 From: Nico Williams To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200706213220.GI3100@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudeggddtudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfggtggufgesthdtredttdervdenucfhrhhomheppfhitghoucghihhllhhirghmshcuoehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefjeefleehvdetieettdethfevfeegtdefkeefleeihffgjeejgedtffejgedvleenucffohhmrghinheprggtmhdrohhrghenucfkphepvdegrddvkedruddtkedrudekfeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehlohgtrghlhhhoshhtpdhinhgvthepvdegrddvkedruddtkedrudekfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppfhitghoucghihhllhhirghmshcuoehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhm Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] bibxml7 -- referencing a book X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:37:07 -0000 How would I write a reference to a book, such as https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/231070 ? Thanks, Nico -- From nobody Mon Jul 6 22:51:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBF43A08B2 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W3HqFU1VTBUQ for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0F293A08B3 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B1BPR09PNzycY; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:50:50 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20200706213220.GI3100@localhost> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:50:50 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 615793850.2067339-37555cd66cb1694ace511a1f57aa8d37 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> References: <20200706213220.GI3100@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bibxml7 -- referencing a book X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 05:51:00 -0000 On 2020-07-06, at 23:36, Nico Williams wrote: >=20 > How would I write a reference to a book, such as >=20 > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/231070 In kramdown-rfc: informative: mybook: DOI.10.5555/231070 Unfortunately, doi.org is broken wrt this book: https://doi.org/10.5555/231070 =E2=9E=94 DOI Not Found =20 10.5555/231070 =20 This DOI cannot be found in the DOI System. Possible reasons are: =E2=80=A2 The DOI is incorrect in your source. Search for the = item by name, title, or other metadata using a search engine. =E2=80=A2 The DOI was copied incorrectly. Check to see that the = string includes all the characters before and after the slash and no = sentence punctuation marks. =E2=80=A2 The DOI has not been activated yet. Please try again = later, and report the problem if the error continues. I submitted an error report. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Jul 6 23:00:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC443A091C for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 23:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=Mp8Z+9AY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=K94sgG/K Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3gAC57vKWvhS for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 23:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DAC83A0919 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 23:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEFDD3A for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 02:00:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm2; bh=OuIoM TVguqm/M8ZycJ7qjPMRfhHItY0Wi4knWFtN7Lg=; b=Mp8Z+9AYNagoRdmKdmNh3 1TDp8+4a8GJtfmEa4/lt3deRgHcX+RFkcFWbdkVx8pAqdTU4Cteg1VIPs++MWF1T QXF/sdwZWLsQ9F7QrnZzL5g5CLQjHxoC7t8apIBcFNJ/4bpZC1fapuH2PUEFg/6/ BMq/J3MkA4wbYsinNJGHCJKwRmma94RNLPzMfwUELhCEEG9RF6bUOmveoMztk91Q 9MDxYJunSRzPnrnZ4r5+YUF58ceSF0pz2D+0hV1A7rA/hrt92zPktXHKz09sX7vq TdbTyOn8gLRMLRedGwDdl7AooTypZbdZfkWW+uOs3WnE5UhP+pHG97CTxYqGMr7r w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=OuIoMTVguqm/M8ZycJ7qjPMRfhHItY0Wi4knWFtN7 Lg=; b=K94sgG/Ke7zZanb7PnvTA0AgIFu4KpTkwnNiPQUkgpTfhvCQDuVsWL76f qNglQM4tsFbqOffF71pI9hcpaO2HcfFi8FjfoKNwHqf6VZfuc087Id/ukqNruNsB tMHPZqed0/t0JNrH8y9m5FETA7OhQYoYM+Ks+hFx3nsO6de23hi/eJhKhru/dFFq n0JENaynt49ECP4IDAyGoBhU3unU9jE37q5z3if6c/C9DFXmVcpzKd18cB2teQWW 9Z1eipMApp4UT4rexF8SZjR3lK+eFgq35cE2cjZQRuXayoOlX6EOmTfctq3u6EZj IB+iEIIsVHmM2CQliAnJZ8Nweo/tQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudeggddutdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepjedthffgheegteegtd dvkeefffdtjeefffefudfghedtvdejjeeuteevgedvgfevnecuffhomhgrihhnpeguohhi rdhorhhgpdgrtghmrdhorhhgpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpe dtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1CF7AE00B3; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 01:59:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-576-gfe2cd66-fm-20200629.001-gfe2cd668 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <75e794b6-9611-495a-af43-a2b692ed8c20@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> References: <20200706213220.GI3100@localhost> <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:59:37 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bibxml7 -- referencing a book X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 06:00:07 -0000 I wonder if this is not at the ACM end. https://doi.org/10.5555/551551 is similarly absent, but this is the iden= tifier used by dl.acm.org. On Tue, Jul 7, 2020, at 15:50, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-07-06, at 23:36, Nico Williams wrote: > >=20 > > How would I write a reference to a book, such as > >=20 > > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/231070 >=20 > In kramdown-rfc: >=20 > informative: > mybook: DOI.10.5555/231070 >=20 >=20 > Unfortunately, doi.org is broken wrt this book: >=20 > https://doi.org/10.5555/231070 > =E2=9E=94 > DOI Not Found >=20 > =20 > 10.5555/231070 >=20 > =20 > This DOI cannot be found in the DOI System. Possible reasons are: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 The DOI is incorrect in your source. Search for the item by= name,=20 > title, or other metadata using a search engine. > =E2=80=A2 The DOI was copied incorrectly. Check to see that the strin= g=20 > includes all the characters before and after the slash and no sentence= =20 > punctuation marks. > =E2=80=A2 The DOI has not been activated yet. Please try again later,= and=20 > report the problem if the error continues. >=20 >=20 >=20 > I submitted an error report. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Tue Jul 7 00:09:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59E63A08FD for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:09:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:08:53 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a38 From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200707070852.GL3100@localhost> References: <20200706213220.GI3100@localhost> <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudeggdduudelucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtugfgjggfsehtkeertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeuudeuleefkeejgfeiudeiueejlefhteelfeekkeehveeugeekhfeiieeiieehnecuffhomhgrihhnpegrtghmrdhorhhgpdguohhirdhorhhgnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bibxml7 -- referencing a book X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 07:09:07 -0000 On Tue, Jul 07, 2020 at 07:50:50AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-07-06, at 23:36, Nico Williams wrote: > >=20 > > How would I write a reference to a book, such as > >=20 > > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/231070 >=20 > In kramdown-rfc: >=20 > informative: > mybook: DOI.10.5555/231070 (BTW, I'm currently editing XML. I know, I know.. I mean, I wrote lyx2rfc, so I ought to be using _that_. But I've let it rot.) > Unfortunately, doi.org is broken wrt this book: >=20 > https://doi.org/10.5555/231070 > =E2=9E=94 > DOI Not Found > > [...] Huh. Thanks! I wonder if that's why the bibxml7 links off the xml2rfc page aren't working -- I always get "invalid DOI or type", even for the examples on the page. Also, it doesn't seem like there's any way to get the rendered I-D to have this information visible, so it hardly seems to matter. But it ought to be visible, IMO. Nico --=20 From nobody Tue Jul 7 20:02:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650C83A1004 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=XB9t/8YL; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=rsTmL5U3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hSD4r8F2Z5nr for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 829713A1003 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 63813 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2020 03:02:24 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=f941.5f053740.k2007; bh=e7NEKv6cRrs8SLFS1CozdgkoRazGsOB75R0SyjfrH6Y=; b=XB9t/8YLpGO+Y7E1i8K4s5II+usFUkVKUvnl9pFsjfD8xO3dJpAu6tdWOgImSfCHTNA3oKfCc5Na/GzJuJ6brY1mo1iHzJxVVhBxQ1BffkqWIf/vpdZXUaPqDjjXD8C7U2H9JEoh6+NzBBw9eFjMl9OYSH+6BuGj3SwBN9e4ATE/iVJ32RRCZ6j2XGs7O+buKMSnDKSaZP04BtnNM3tbVwIBE4agVsKf8VlA680nMy1FtRm0K+y5ujmR9eYcy2s1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=f941.5f053740.k2007; bh=e7NEKv6cRrs8SLFS1CozdgkoRazGsOB75R0SyjfrH6Y=; b=rsTmL5U3nv3vwobkAfMZlCTGRP/NpSEu5V0JnGxrFZjkTUQ4fSIgvgwQj7LCXFfhzo7D7DQPL9T2yzGlIg7DCR87wG/CuvatyqeHp3xtixINaMpU5W77J/P/Np9qiNs/VjGNVJYVnA7KR41Qaw0/rxFBHSgUO0qZjbWOQjGSS8oS2gZUmVtUMLRLHC33UuZovc0MZZa83d7SJZTr0UIOP2hgtitBsRFlcnIfRn/0mZYWoZfNnHPyTb7ZbmlmelLr Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 08 Jul 2020 03:02:24 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5A2061C684CE; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 23:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: 7 Jul 2020 23:02:25 -0400 Message-Id: <20200708030225.5A2061C684CE@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: cabo@tzi.org In-Reply-To: <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bibxml7 -- referencing a book X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 03:02:30 -0000 In article <181A32C7-054C-4C56-9CB4-72E308CFEC72@tzi.org> you write: >On 2020-07-06, at 23:36, Nico Williams wrote: >> >> How would I write a reference to a book, such as >> >> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/231070 >Unfortunately, doi.org is broken wrt this book: > >https://doi.org/10.5555/231070 >➔ >DOI Not Found That's because it's not a DOI, it's a catalog number in ACM's Digital Library. Books don't have DOIs; they have ISBNs, in this case 978-0-201-54979-9 There is no free ISBN lookup system. Bowker, the company that issues ISBNs, charges a lot for access to the database. You might be able to fake it by looking books up in Worldcat, e.g. https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/254120563 From nobody Fri Jul 10 03:36:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DED53A088C for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 03:36:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpherQRRUBAE for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 03:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF4603A088A for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 03:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.100] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B38bM2qT5zycY; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616070174.780503-744b31b57dc410b4c349dd49adb06ace Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:36:14 +0200 Message-Id: <8D75BC85-5517-437A-80AA-34037C4B677F@tzi.org> To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] List subscription process -- recent changes? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:36:19 -0000 Starting this week, I'm getting requests to manually add people to a = mailing list because the automatic address ownership proof apparently = doesn=E2=80=99t work any more. These all come from one company, so maybe they have borked something, = but I want to make sure there wasn't a change on our side that just = happens to break that company=E2=80=99s email system. Was there a change? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Jul 10 06:12:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09093A0CB7 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 06:12:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q-R_6OsVa3PV for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 06:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B9FD3A0CB5 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 06:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id h22so6358582lji.9 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 06:12:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PjfrBRpiB7+AqegzMcqER5ARJXPvcxapo9UewGw0iPU=; b=yup2AcvxxqUQCOiU/6BmNxF17P1FO9YzxJf3zFlkdbpkixqEDaaQVfR8mbTT5Xrb0o DVr6NYz/P+uC/mpDFcdrx4ltwMZgCB4d0ouNGgIVOVY0Izzpi6Fdk24ztu0WXWmDHEFi VYW5V9QglFXNy6oT+BD1fvgaOAEfLEa0m7cHVgqdruNd97l3Ns+jb2uqbAl8bM4IyIp+ 7pdmn4S29gSg6u7OYxgtDT0vYFznV7RxaYKia1cRDshEOHrsrbv2kaEtFbGjb39SQE36 WI7xvMSxZrHUYoqNUsTVAeKDRBF6T24/97O5WgYe1+6qZRGFjdpO/pYF7q6yJ8Ijp9Ne 6crQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PjfrBRpiB7+AqegzMcqER5ARJXPvcxapo9UewGw0iPU=; b=Kg8ssNNTAvChMyOpV/mXeIQzyq1Ebgyza8SUOFpVU0zws7/Kg3OLn6kVr5DhcixAbg Ipp1ndR0ERnX7CCu89QKfqA2ofX5dLc/7ZZe7iPuI0X035+hVeuH3HbIVq9zQsN4NgVi puWWRt762EqML6Mu2nHqRpZusK41kEuH4Nay9Q+TnrWAMbZL6aIMM/XEXoQIPRyc/+xC kWw7SWa00y1srqIlHXgksei7ycQb9Rvx5C7NO97rDaMQ5t0wDMV3WLRwC39xJ/tcHTG0 IWvlyr45RC87S3cf0oNLP7OSvSdLV4+MYyYTC7oX32AhoILdhBRftXKDjpuIhRBxKasP xC0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5304k7MvsA/EsbqlnWVdwHddzpBatwcguinxaMktllOkWQ/Ga9ic S1U3egpAc77ThkrL0mmDdOQG0xCIX1VzvsrfSCzdDBKpGyI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkcOs3faAVtuT1o0yEojED1kC7V5DuTkN+ftqa+4gfOeaMmrSV/BkD+z0P/0QQlZBpPd1Cq8yklq4K9DTC3jI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3311:: with SMTP id d17mr40468903ljc.13.1594386774929; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 06:12:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 06:12:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ac95b05aa161930" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Using Datatracker for authentication X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:12:59 -0000 --0000000000005ac95b05aa161930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" If one wanted to write a new tool that leveraged Datatracker authentication (presumably via OAuth) would that be possible? What would one need to do? -Ekr --0000000000005ac95b05aa161930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
If one wanted to write a new tool that leveraged Datatracker authentication (presumably via OAuth) would that be possible? What would one need to do?

-Ekr

--0000000000005ac95b05aa161930-- From nobody Fri Jul 10 07:35:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF643A0C0C for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 07:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2P6jqYOuvUwj for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 07:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 213373A0D1C for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 07:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 06AEYt2U096346 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:34:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1594391697; bh=ofDnZSnSRzm1aAusiuHpirxMy4PxHuSGIs5puJISzvk=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cCHUY8wttdNyrL8jhVX6loxQud1Lub7KaNXy2ihiGNNkCCwzNWPXVKVH/12SHJ7k5 cNghxpLdoUXttHDOWGwAHMolpop1kFA/e4xLH5tC6wUNpbA63QmL5fpkZAdih+GDvy /RJiHiAGp3OcWb9WOkiMa2wViqQR7dCnNslp2cXM= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <02db33f9-fde7-da0c-d75a-c29fc3d7f7f3@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:34:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F84B453A6B259391EFEC8D51" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Using Datatracker for authentication X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 14:35:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F84B453A6B259391EFEC8D51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From a technical pov, you add an openid connect client to your tool. A record in the datatracker would need to be created that established a clientid and secret for that tool (and a few other bits of information). You'd configure your tool with these things and all should be good. The provider can also do oauth2, at the cost of more configuration at both ends. We are building a policy around how to decide how to answer when someone asks for something to be added as a client. For the moment, the tools team will sanity-check and make a recommendation, and the IESG approves. On 7/10/20 8:12 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > If one wanted to write a new tool that leveraged Datatracker > authentication (presumably via OAuth) would that be possible? What > would one need to do? > > -Ekr > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --------------F84B453A6B259391EFEC8D51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From a technical pov, you add an openid connect client to your tool. A record in the datatracker would need to be created that established a clientid and secret for that tool (and a few other bits of information). You'd configure your tool with these things and all should be good. The provider can also do oauth2, at the cost of more configuration at both ends.

We are building a policy around how to decide how to answer when someone asks for something to be added as a client. For the moment, the tools team will sanity-check and make a recommendation, and the IESG approves.

On 7/10/20 8:12 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
If one wanted to write a new tool that leveraged Datatracker authentication (presumably via OAuth) would that be possible? What would one need to do?

-Ekr


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--------------F84B453A6B259391EFEC8D51-- From nobody Fri Jul 10 08:01:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095943A0DC0 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 08:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MEaoEtdi0B6y for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 08:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 293A03A0D4A for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 08:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA52E389A3; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id i6PAhqwhfpJ8; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A4E38995; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E572617; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:01:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Robert Sparks cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <02db33f9-fde7-da0c-d75a-c29fc3d7f7f3@nostrum.com> References: <02db33f9-fde7-da0c-d75a-c29fc3d7f7f3@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Using Datatracker for authentication X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 15:01:55 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Robert Sparks wrote: > From a technical pov, you add an openid connect client to your tool. A record > in the datatracker would need to be created that established a clientid and > secret for that tool (and a few other bits of information). I guess that we could probably test against the sandbox, or against our own copy. Is there instruction to tell us where that record is? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8IgtkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXMYwf9EyP3BlS8XJ4uDvcu9hBOmZrZStzccQDEwTQLfQGSnDMZrMOn2ePTvmta ORi5VUYLY5X1ZdELDu7ZenGNnvSB+cWhhrcZV4+/1HL16R7rl7wGtPvjvWWGyD/B M9ESRYvIsW/MQZ2UuP40a5LeB1181rlkq0pi+qgVpT+lWlwWAFzp6pZCy7KyU/hy sjzs8Ma7atQT65ZTo7lYlfTqU5EQ7z95f0wsn9xbmwvuxrxALh/mrnenFmC0vLtP 1/xYswF8bLJx5fdxMwI/K4rqZNOYgfgMFt5OaGejY3UVfv6C8a51ORIkAecfx28L zRzcONOw4Uz8QC32chij+4PsiKobIA== =mMQ/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Jul 11 14:40:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EB93A080A for ; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 14:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SZ8UcBfaDPPz for ; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 14:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7F9D3A0808 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 14:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 06BLeolI075763 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:40:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1594503652; bh=kPl+Xqp6vRuWaPh8qtqXAcRR1ao9je4jjlO/1STrzU8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=lejA8olKnY4gAUP/CHcWJOzS/8ERpR+uB6jkFWFpd1D+4D3SsHPoaZRDNeGglG7xp PgLlvDxoF4qPvhXcAFxkJVF0wynLVJGafzXTzmlsNoao/10nfSxQW/wRvD/UFQtQti JpLlVWB72Ar+ImAB+ID1DxQpyBEp0IGFxbs2r1x0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann References: <8D75BC85-5517-437A-80AA-34037C4B677F@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <4fd92391-797b-29cd-91bf-71993f6d0097@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:40:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8D75BC85-5517-437A-80AA-34037C4B677F@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] List subscription process -- recent changes? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 21:40:55 -0000 No - there haven't been any relevant changes at our end. On 7/10/20 5:36 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Starting this week, I'm getting requests to manually add people to a mailing list because the automatic address ownership proof apparently doesn’t work any more. > These all come from one company, so maybe they have borked something, but I want to make sure there wasn't a change on our side that just happens to break that company’s email system. > > Was there a change? > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Mon Jul 13 08:27:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E2F3A1353 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:27:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xjMJAdlJDQRJ for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 099393A1337 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 06DFRc0X055136 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:27:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1594654060; bh=ipummzCi/wPY3pxe4sRq9HLvqKO5yXm9QeFvh52Mgt4=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=b8r0qZjdAbnnpCi0Xl6JweGQkHosGMS7U4QuZnIqrvXwc5KwIUyp4qBdSG0aegE0O MjauQI4d76o1H2YzcDxTg5jnIMjW+b/FvDmg8qladJAYUHQ2cm/ahhWYEntzcwPR+U SROePClKVVUFzu/XH4ytLnVj9rSgV1drr8/fDWs8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <02db33f9-fde7-da0c-d75a-c29fc3d7f7f3@nostrum.com> <32491.1594393305@localhost> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <8f00eca4-7aec-9f6d-164c-5ded64f69bcc@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:27:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32491.1594393305@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E9BFFA6051713AF56AEDC811" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Using Datatracker for authentication X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:27:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E9BFFA6051713AF56AEDC811 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The place to start is reading https://django-oidc-provider.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ You can add clients to your test instance using the admin at http://localhost:8000/admin/oidc_provider/ RjS On 7/10/20 10:01 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Robert Sparks wrote: > > From a technical pov, you add an openid connect client to your tool. A record > > in the datatracker would need to be created that established a clientid and > > secret for that tool (and a few other bits of information). > > I guess that we could probably test against the sandbox, or against our own > copy. Is there instruction to tell us where that record is? > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --------------E9BFFA6051713AF56AEDC811 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The place to start is reading https://django-oidc-provider.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

You can add clients to your test instance using the admin at http://localhost:8000/admin/oidc_provider/

RjS

On 7/10/20 10:01 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
    > From a technical pov, you add an openid connect client to your tool. A record
    > in the datatracker would need to be created that established a clientid and
    > secret for that tool (and a few other bits of information).

I guess that we could probably test against the sandbox, or against our own
copy.  Is there instruction to tell us where that record is?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-





___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--------------E9BFFA6051713AF56AEDC811-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 14:05:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497683A081B for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IOh20cpQ5idD for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 145833A0808 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A352A389D5 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 5T7npFtdvYJe for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FED7389D3 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77ADB4CC for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:05:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] 3GPP references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:05:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I tell xml2rfc to reference reference.3GPP.51.011.xml and it gets it from .../bibxml5. Then it says: : Line 3: Type ID doesn't allow value '3GPP.51.011' : Line 3: Element reference failed to validate attributes : Line 650: Failure to process entity _3GPP.51.011 : Line 650: Entity '_3GPP.51.011' not defined setting standalone: true in markdown, I look at the resulting XML, and I see how the entity is inserted. So I insert the reference.3GPP... contents myself, and change the anchor to _3GPP since I think that leading digits are not allowed. And it works. Is it a known problem that the bibxml5 is not compliant? -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8MzJgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVdZQf/f954Im/8UbRpwuSqnuefGrIPX2gZ10bxbwgbfcGefOJhcJOssnxygzNl Cmtp0Yso1D//B1if6ODENLasqARHytyevlwyouEd+Nk5G143lHgEp0BaKRNMhBsb iivHPEu0vJ3lwHca2dUaO6GYG6gM2hze7XXPSgTGhI6tFkbCYHj7H6DU7KokmyHT xYNYHiYAVOZsrKsLUh93RoFzMIT7vpF2FFUByffgoohD6Gx+pun5lSS59ApUip6o vgZPoKoEIFG0J7S1uieJYsWKdi6kVyQ0w9ymzZjDDIn5l8685HyXVgbQSIFH8gxY ids8ge6cBoEhlMmhYedWlce4Mul/Xw== =/jXQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 21:53:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A627E3A0FCA for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G7faCMMwQQlX for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 170293A0FC9 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.100] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B5SpL0nQDz17p8; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 06:53:46 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <14073.1594674328@localhost> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 06:53:45 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616395225.413427-0cb6679167408c7be7fd74b85929fe27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <78C0963A-7514-4DE4-8446-40D8681EA15C@tzi.org> References: <14073.1594674328@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] 3GPP references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:53:51 -0000 On 2020-07-13, at 23:05, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > I tell xml2rfc to reference reference.3GPP.51.011.xml and it gets it = from .../bibxml5. > Then it says: >=20 > : Line 3: Type ID doesn't allow value '3GPP.51.011' > : Line 3: Element reference failed to validate attributes > : Line 650: Failure to process entity _3GPP.51.011 > : Line 650: Entity '_3GPP.51.011' not defined >=20 > setting standalone: true in markdown, Which you always should, unless you have weird firewall issues making it = impossible to reach the bibxml server from kramdown-rfc. > I look at the resulting XML, > and I see how the entity is inserted. This works for me (the 3GPP is properly, if uglily, escaped, as it = should be). [_3GPP.51.011] 3GPP, "Specification of the Subscriber Identity Module - Mobile Equipment (SIM-ME) interface", 3GPP TS 51.011 4.15.0, 15 June 2005, . > So I insert the reference.3GPP... contents myself, and change the = anchor to _3GPP > since I think that leading digits are not allowed. Kramdown-rfc does that already for you. > And it works. Yes. > Is it a known problem that the bibxml5 is not compliant? It is a known problem that xml2rfc v1 was rather lenient in its XML = processing. Bibxml5 apparently is from that time. kramdown-rfc fixes that up properly, so I think I=E2=80=99m already done = here? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Jul 14 14:50:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97E53A0774 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 14:50:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2oVXMj4Cyms7 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 14:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8552A3A0775 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 14:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A0B389E0; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xxZMmBGQYDGI; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13ADA389C3; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40FA1D5; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:50:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <78C0963A-7514-4DE4-8446-40D8681EA15C@tzi.org> References: <14073.1594674328@localhost> <78C0963A-7514-4DE4-8446-40D8681EA15C@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] 3GPP references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 21:50:54 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Carsten Bormann wrote: >> setting standalone: true in markdown, > Which you always should, unless you have weird firewall issues making > it impossible to reach the bibxml server from kramdown-rfc. I'm unclear of the advantages or disadvantages of whether kramdown or xml2rfc pulls the references :-) >> I look at the resulting XML, >> and I see how the entity is inserted. > This works for me (the 3GPP is properly, if uglily, escaped, as it > should be). maybe I need an update to kramdown. >> So I insert the reference.3GPP... contents myself, and change the anchor to _3GPP >> since I think that leading digits are not allowed. > Kramdown-rfc does that already for you. It didn't. I seem to have kramdown-rfc2629 vesion 1.2.13. (There is no --version) I seem have xml2rfc version 2.23.1. I wasn't thinking that this was a kramdown bug. It might be an xml2rfc bug, but it seems like it is a .xml file bug. I now have kramdown-rfc2629 version 1.3.8, and now it works. It seems that kramdown is working around a problem in the .xml file. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8OKLQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWW2Qf+PDY5mBxE91c8XSGXpSlimpPfYUf8N7wej5vshjef10Aavty426v+2H7N leZF0EjZt5NYmXziEXyYMptUgqfLqdK2By2jOnyghKBGI5giocmlTjBZShycmT9z qQ4gmjeJIWgRwuCJZ0UFX3bR0y1VPLUfD0BJaXxG1D4WlooXUG6c7gZXnSgDqnVW Wk+0hVlv5SAUMuNU05lyrP/fUy3J6clLeO1b+qg9TbNzpwSGxbwe+XlnJZbVaWvY vjqI6rPM28IuPoStke8JpcePjG+nq3VLsjeFp4ad2J7fcZ6dgQQERNa9FiBj6hLh gDwoNHJiHtTwkuCSeXBVMdnr3Nb/cg== =K6Ow -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:04:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430543A0D51 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:04:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 295WUjaOmUTh for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17AB43A0D5C for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B6Md93sB0zyTm; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:03:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616521836.9252239-d6405e272b7ebe863ee79358ab59758b Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:03:57 +0200 Message-Id: To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meet echo test today X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:04:03 -0000 I was in an interim for the first 2/3, so sorry if this was asked. (1) How do I know whether I=E2=80=99m muted (or, more appropriately, = I=E2=80=99m not muted)? There should be MASSIVE visual feedback when you are at an open = microphone. (ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.) (2) How do I know who is speaking at the moment? =20 (PRETTY MUCH ESSENTIAL.) (Look at BigBlueButton to see how to do this right. Certainly not at = Webex.) Can we have tool tips on all the the icons? Some of the buttons don=E2=80=99t react immediately, so it looks like = they didn=E2=80=99t register, and you are likely to press them twice. (Hums: too complicated UI, clicking around in different parts of the = screen under a time limit, easy to get wrong.) Use the term =E2=80=9Cmute=E2=80=9D for input OR for output, not for = both. These days, it is usually used for muting the microphone input. Sorry if this little list sounds negative, to the contrary, I=E2=80=99m = impressed. But the places I=E2=80=99m shouting about above really need to be fixed. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:09:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354AD3A0D68 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Q7V4lAgWsZe for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43B613A0D5F for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9A054843F; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:09:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 976F7440043; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:09:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:09:00 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200715160900.GD38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meet echo test today X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:09:07 -0000 On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 06:03:57PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > I was in an interim for the first 2/3, so sorry if this was asked. > > > (1) How do I know whether I???m muted (or, more appropriately, I???m not muted)? > There should be MASSIVE visual feedback when you are at an open microphone. > (ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.) On the bottom of the sceen you will see "audio in: X kbps" when you are muted On the bottom of the sceen you will see "audio in: X kbps audio out: X kbps" when you are unmuted Not sure if this meets your requirments. > (2) How do I know who is speaking at the moment? > (PRETTY MUCH ESSENTIAL.) > (Look at BigBlueButton to see how to do this right. Certainly not at Webex.) +1 Have not figured that out. > Can we have tool tips on all the the icons? +1. > Some of the buttons don???t react immediately, so it looks like they didn???t register, and you are likely to press them twice. > > (Hums: too complicated UI, clicking around in different parts of the screen under a time limit, easy to get wrong.) We should just invite experienced gamers to IETF. Times are a changing. > Use the term ???mute??? for input OR for output, not for both. > These days, it is usually used for muting the microphone input. > > > Sorry if this little list sounds negative, to the contrary, I???m impressed. > But the places I???m shouting about above really need to be fixed. I think the new meetecho is impressive work already. I agree and +1 most of your observations. Cheers Toerless From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:54:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B28213A0420; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LrnYNkNaGKZ9; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 143F83A03F6; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id f2so3427529wrp.7; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=u1eSiti/IUU5MC3s8DvSLDcDYKO2dvujv7Xz2wSDtAs=; b=H7pdG/6Ya0Z3Nl1A6W1WxVgQbndYELDoTsmWC9gg/QKsmH9Y1WkZPJiM6CPL+95bVT BX+ZUplXgOIaTZ1OoXcPAt19Xd8a+mjzo14xTZinnP7IJs4sp++Z6k8Lp1CHyphnHiGY f2O6Q8ZuB8q70FLX/EeTIpKeQ1UCeqF6FDouv3boMhup9g/VV4iKhCZgdGyIZKSpd7sR yUYrFYeXRy0AY46FJphEwbfg2xFi/Ddh8KNI065QVKgJdnjDLYZGSbtVPUkz9dedRHh1 pnvKYSHxZjVeSlhUJB2o6cEUWYAJHhgGVjGDsUfYN8/nDQ66W79xJo53p21amtgLxfye tB3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=u1eSiti/IUU5MC3s8DvSLDcDYKO2dvujv7Xz2wSDtAs=; b=mVMXcQG3nTcjc+LJ5yYFyEqcpcRTMB+HAZsyt7vmL6VHW0lFbEQMe0kdqljtDojoJB ov4H06d4iQ+iLg5MFYZKAAMJHUnfjg6jDI9i982495JCg9EGWOCuDtZ5hDvH4NR/gFIV yYKryQdx+nvH1LhKZl3YJhUlLJ4DIbi+ZZ48Vqcr9o+FnUwOo+hBW8OhH9XWIexY6gTq AyN1O6WeBdk0QI4tgi8v+lhQudocvp4GRrJXTbtyP++3tNFBXWCCcD2Fg0fGbXhn6tO8 yURT1YL1kUiDATXCoa0fK6iUXQlmNuq3r99QF16ibqMWgJJoiaA53ZVggGIUKTIUMsyW 7T1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532L2GobFvA7/oQ5Jw/umoVvsLj8cEbdo5wt7cz40MlUdCLw83Vu jdwvqva6s/Ftg92MhYi1xmQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1wi5zKdQ/sred4lfXozkYR5T6VgQ0l0w1nNObapcd4eO433Oy/a4Ml1NlAuF6v4OA1Z+vQg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:b18d:: with SMTP id q13mr297337wra.256.1594832045111; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:d491:43d2:96e:300b? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:d491:43d2:96e:300b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h14sm4308263wrt.36.2020.07.15.09.54.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <58C8CF5E-6745-4A15-B321-3EEF854ECBAD@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_30B7EB93-998C-4E6F-BAEB-8A186BA297A5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:53:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20200715160900.GD38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Cc: Bob Hinden , Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion , Greg Wood To: Toerless Eckert References: <20200715160900.GD38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meet echo test today X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:54:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_30B7EB93-998C-4E6F-BAEB-8A186BA297A5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I was on the call too, overall I think new Meetecho is a great = improvement, but with some rough edges. My comments inline below and a = few more at the end. Bob > On Jul 15, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 06:03:57PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> I was in an interim for the first 2/3, so sorry if this was asked. >>=20 >>=20 >> (1) How do I know whether I???m muted (or, more appropriately, I???m = not muted)? >> There should be MASSIVE visual feedback when you are at an open = microphone. >> (ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.) >=20 > On the bottom of the sceen you will see "audio in: X kbps" when you = are muted > On the bottom of the sceen you will see "audio in: X kbps audio out: = X kbps" when you are unmuted >=20 > Not sure if this meets your requirments. No, I think that is too subtle. The icons could be improved, for example, mute/unmute icons in other = apps tend to use a slash through them to mute/unmute. >=20 >> (2) How do I know who is speaking at the moment? >> (PRETTY MUCH ESSENTIAL.) >> (Look at BigBlueButton to see how to do this right. Certainly not at = Webex.) >=20 > +1 Have not figured that out. I agree. >=20 >> Can we have tool tips on all the the icons? >=20 > +1. Yes, took me a while to figure out that the other box that changed, tool = tips on the icons would be much better. >=20 >> Some of the buttons don???t react immediately, so it looks like they = didn???t register, and you are likely to press them twice. >>=20 >> (Hums: too complicated UI, clicking around in different parts of the = screen under a time limit, easy to get wrong.) Agree. Might also be better for the hum tool to just be a new window = that pops up, instead of a pop up window that says to go to a different = tab. >=20 > We should just invite experienced gamers to IETF. Times are a = changing. >=20 >> Use the term ???mute??? for input OR for output, not for both. >> These days, it is usually used for muting the microphone input. Agree >>=20 >>=20 >> Sorry if this little list sounds negative, to the contrary, I???m = impressed. >> But the places I???m shouting about above really need to be fixed. >=20 > I think the new meetecho is impressive work already. Yes, kudos to the Meetecho team!! Other comments: Running it on Chrome on MacOS 10.14, it did not give me a choice of = audio and video devices. I have two screens, I didn=E2=80=99t see any way to move the different = parts to different windows. As a w.g. chair, I would like to be able to = see the participant list (w/ queue requests) and the chat at the same = time. The current UI doesn=E2=80=99t seem to allow that. I think it = is a big issue for chairing a session. I didn=E2=80=99t understand the separation between requesting audio and = video. I think requesting video should include audio, maybe the audio = one should be audio-only. This is going to be confusing. Does the = chair have to approve both? The humming tool needs some work, I think it needs a no-hum button = because otherwise I can=E2=80=99t tell the difference between someone = not-humming or walking away from the computer. As a w.g. chair, I also = want to see how many people hummed. One loud hum from one person is = very different than everyone in the room humming loudly. Ideally a bar = graph would allow the chair to get a much better sense of the room. = Also, why are w.g. chairs not allowed to hum, but Area Directors are? Great to see it working with IPv6!! Bob > I agree and +1 most of your observations. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_30B7EB93-998C-4E6F-BAEB-8A186BA297A5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl8PNKUACgkQrut0EXfn u6h3JQf+I6DM6wwskFWftrLWssDRteXYbv5J1FCyewYT7M5EbbRibKl61xrItD5+ Q+Cz3kGm5CpNoEnq2MOX82DNxnzo/ILsDZZ6peJQ/9ok6h9u8L+ErgTz/5qfj7rf nsaMxCvMiRzvVtpvOCRnTTTwFJrH8u4sLJHT5eKh6aFDnpW4NmXBDnehIvhnJpaK ygxt7pMCpQknnARrY4Ijr4lhdoihlp8smJZJGz6wIjfuk4Cvu2T4CHuVN/VbqbYf vLx++SwkIDrefeJp6VJ9SNlF/D/91KKfXhgSGM+q9+MaXKQBCi1QuuUfhPzvDpEO Y6Lj4La+LeRA3WMuyjUt+9Ey3Al4hw== =Qg9x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_30B7EB93-998C-4E6F-BAEB-8A186BA297A5-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:57:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C313A0809 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:56:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2DXZ89QK17Cv for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0B063A07E2 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DC7389D5; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 9OtYyUp5SqEA; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29C4389B4; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7995211A; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:56:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meet echo test today X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:57:00 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: > (1) How do I know whether I=E2=80=99m muted (or, more appropriately, = I=E2=80=99m not muted)? > There should be MASSIVE visual feedback when you are at an open micro= phone. > (ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.) I understand that this will be added. I hope that at least some of it will be driven by the server receiving audi= o. (It would be even better if all clients calculated a quality number and fed that back) They key is for the local user to know if they are transmitting successfully to the network, and also for them to know if they have unmutted everything. > Can we have tool tips on all the the icons? The location of the tool tip on the top is a bit surprising. The "Request Audio" tool tip for entering the queue did not immediately tell me what was going on. Please do not remove the unmute button when I enter the queue as it is confusing. Shade it out if you must. > Use the term =E2=80=9Cmute=E2=80=9D for input OR for output, not for = both. > These days, it is usually used for muting the microphone input. Agreed. > Sorry if this little list sounds negative, to the contrary, I=E2=80= =99m impressed. > But the places I=E2=80=99m shouting about above really need to be fix= ed. I am also very happy. I would be happy to use it *as-is* for all future virtual interim meetings. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8PNVUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVbuwgAiAnwY+AV6F7JPaPbxTnYqw3S6ittM21K4oj9MpSgXEgXghvH+IrqCOfh v/3yTPI/ssbLOBtKjWqttRYxZK8gJTwPTy2WnDDfTfiyAlTn4FCMmWmHJYv8nstS biRGPBRejCI/QCOKMzfD2s2Nj844vfzCymWBN7/bhwV6kA9Mlls5Y6m0dHaAp0Sz kpcrLn5QpwWRe6RhlaamyOVCZnwjDNXbUXVFsBSGC02O0JChXWyP5PvIQsCJTrkF RDhR58lBoCPNtxTqaBQy1EgN2qEjQHeDOwU2jQ1hFk1qC95mxJ0MMpT1WZGSBi4b nyFXPLfoMCfjdreLa7rnRNBS1FcPNQ== =DuiF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 10:40:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBCAD3A0063 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 10:40:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5YkBScAUNPPg for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21D233A00AD for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC66548011; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 490F3440043; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:40:47 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net Message-ID: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:40:54 -0000 Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that actually deparses names in a contributors section and does something with that information ? (aka: allows recognition stats like they are done for authors) ? I could not find anything in RFC 7749 that would allow me semantic tagging of contributors, Am i wrong ? If not, then parsing would have to be difficult and heuristic, and i therefore fear the answer to my above question is NO ? Wasthere not a time when we wanted to make contirbutors better recognizeable ? Thanks Toerless From nobody Wed Jul 15 11:04:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481103A0885 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:04:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z53FREFxIdJj for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B63D3A0882 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 06FI4c7r017553; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:04:38 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0891322183; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:04:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E735722186; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:04:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([87.113.100.254]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 06FI4Z7x012809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:04:36 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Toerless Eckert'" Cc: , References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:04:35 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHiRzsBszWW1GjpXtoJ+9jPO0BeAKjxFaKA Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 87.113.100.254 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25544.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--5.736-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--5.736-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25544.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--5.735800-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 1GZI+iG+MtfxIbpQ8BhdbA/5L1pUR3v2xkm+0YpML1fZph+FbFGABWiW BUhB/dX7iK4AoRG6tnCCAMLz7uhfhpGlJ5QKyUiC4h8r8l3l4eZUXmZR3qwgxi62hjZS0WoYAt+ 0ZcdQf5QhWM5Ah1+TEbujLhltI9TJFSVk0aMhzSsoAEFlnc8+Ra5zNeGRxnMhD+VDcFI0nBQhDB 23wWI6FOyJ6eIVEjWJMVgWP2b5R3j2+I2+EfS2Y8EvKlG0CjjIWuFm7TqL4eGRiV0eo0RbuGiw6 dACPIqT+W2Elaj143NYr/7xbQfT+/C2nAGd5g6BtT4jIeGRd/UFcnqPYTPUh6Y7XH28Hn1Ro8WM kQWv6iV95l0nVeyiuPvaZcqB7SGXC24oEZ6SpSkj80Za3RRg8GpIbhc7CF6yMfzbn7XzYSwmY+7 lWwW7hjIVIYF4H40iZN3NGvqQMNI= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:04:52 -0000 I believe Jari's script attempts to do this and counts Contributors in the author stats it generates The script is very vulnerable to formatting errors and since the Contributors section is usually hand-crafted, the script often misses people or documents. Jari always welcomes fixes to the scripts. Last I looked there were lots of "IF RFC=abcd THEN make this special exception" A -----Original Message----- From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert Sent: 15 July 2020 18:41 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org; rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org Subject: [rfc-i] contributors section & tools Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that actually deparses names in a contributors section and does something with that information ? (aka: allows recognition stats like they are done for authors) ? I could not find anything in RFC 7749 that would allow me semantic tagging of contributors, Am i wrong ? If not, then parsing would have to be difficult and heuristic, and i therefore fear the answer to my above question is NO ? Wasthere not a time when we wanted to make contirbutors better recognizeable ? Thanks Toerless _______________________________________________ rfc-interest mailing list rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest From nobody Wed Jul 15 11:12:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257973A0EDE for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28euWk3EMo9y for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D7BE3A09D8 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB72548011; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:12:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 43730440043; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:12:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:12:33 +0200 From: 'Toerless Eckert' To: Adrian Farrel Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:12:51 -0000 Thanks, Adrian Any example XML for which you're aware that the contributor section was correctly parsed, then i will just clone that formatting. I do like the idea to format with all the same contact info as if the contributors where authors, but thats just for emphasizing for human readers, not for a poor script. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 07:04:35PM +0100, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I believe Jari's script attempts to do this and counts Contributors in the > author stats it generates > > The script is very vulnerable to formatting errors and since the > Contributors section is usually hand-crafted, the script often misses people > or documents. > > Jari always welcomes fixes to the scripts. Last I looked there were lots of > "IF RFC=abcd THEN make this special exception" > > A > -----Original Message----- > From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of > Toerless Eckert > Sent: 15 July 2020 18:41 > To: tools-discuss@ietf.org; rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > Subject: [rfc-i] contributors section & tools > > Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that > actually deparses names > in a contributors section and does something with that information ? > (aka: allows recognition stats like they are done for authors) ? > > I could not find anything in RFC 7749 that would allow me semantic tagging > of contributors, > Am i wrong ? > > If not, then parsing would have to be difficult and heuristic, and i > therefore fear the answer to my > above question is NO ? > > Wasthere not a time when we wanted to make contirbutors better recognizeable > ? > > Thanks > Toerless > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Jul 15 11:24:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808CB3A0AD9 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2zh1SbfmBegJ for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B74A3A0AEC for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (vs1.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.121]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 06FINqxD022966; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:23:52 +0100 Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979BB2203B; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:23:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs1.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 827882203A; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:23:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([87.113.100.254]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 06FINpo8023881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:23:52 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Toerless Eckert'" Cc: , References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:23:51 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHiRzsBszWW1GjpXtoJ+9jPO0BeAAIvln4VAXHSPqio1A6TsA== Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 87.113.100.254 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25544.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--17.508-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--17.508-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25544.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--17.508300-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: C/snMIRQLS3xIbpQ8BhdbC0x8J2DopEN7CU4ZmhBVXQs7eP5cPCWQ/Tp Te7ql1uPf8yw9uJdYaY9ale0zS6mxOdv6cWcdrc0+LORUvwlJdsX705dnYk+LLV5fSMRD1zq0SK biBNG/RJJf6XORbvxvAUPiDTfgVGN1dVV831uoNACOhpLDQSMVWpgzIYzEnZ55NZMkA6RI/CD/m A2vw4bvUT88A7P9JJ26Bg7b0GYfyZuBvtXfPycCfIq3+8DQd0oDEUX84f6hBwZwGrh4y4izI0G9 GYox3FwXah1UHwoJAnGljl9xdOl4d7/CnI+7e6xKhQHv3RCSep9iuvWn3J8Ku+RjJ4FenTB6s5I QlEERpdFWRVWxTiqvDJbVwVN5kxljSWgDaRwEZ30UeM2i2l3EMzzMs2dyeyVabJxhiIFjJm0197 CyYl4Vt1MCYJynNUuy5PqnJRFA+HlRxm3A2wKujl/1fD/GopdyJ1gFgOMhOmbk3ZgcwPRvwzKt8 /2P4LV33fj+sMArfOEbaqKQSlAZfy0AbIe6BCt5r8UFBUmdGnW8+C2PgAaznBC9t6MqfT7T7urX jpJ51o= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:24:07 -0000 I just looked at RFC 8663. Long list of Contributors. Jari appears to extract them OK. The XML for 8663 is available in the datatracker. I see that the RPC elected to use my magic formatting which has the whole section presented as to get the format correct. Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, that would solve the problem. A -----Original Message----- From: 'Toerless Eckert' Sent: 15 July 2020 19:13 To: Adrian Farrel Cc: -interest@rfc-editor.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rfc-i] contributors section & tools Thanks, Adrian Any example XML for which you're aware that the contributor section was correctly parsed, then i will just clone that formatting. I do like the idea to format with all the same contact info as if the contributors where authors, but thats just for emphasizing for human readers, not for a poor script. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 07:04:35PM +0100, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I believe Jari's script attempts to do this and counts Contributors in the > author stats it generates > > The script is very vulnerable to formatting errors and since the > Contributors section is usually hand-crafted, the script often misses people > or documents. > > Jari always welcomes fixes to the scripts. Last I looked there were lots of > "IF RFC=abcd THEN make this special exception" > > A > -----Original Message----- > From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of > Toerless Eckert > Sent: 15 July 2020 18:41 > To: tools-discuss@ietf.org; rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > Subject: [rfc-i] contributors section & tools > > Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that > actually deparses names > in a contributors section and does something with that information ? > (aka: allows recognition stats like they are done for authors) ? > > I could not find anything in RFC 7749 that would allow me semantic tagging > of contributors, > Am i wrong ? > > If not, then parsing would have to be difficult and heuristic, and i > therefore fear the answer to my > above question is NO ? > > Wasthere not a time when we wanted to make contirbutors better recognizeable > ? > > Thanks > Toerless > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Jul 15 11:50:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446843A09DF for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O1IjLE4a5Xso for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 550B93A09AA for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE3E548068; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:50:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 866EF440043; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:50:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:50:23 +0200 From: 'Toerless Eckert' To: Adrian Farrel Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:50:32 -0000 On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 07:23:51PM +0100, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I just looked at RFC 8663. > Long list of Contributors. Jari appears to extract them OK. > > The XML for 8663 is available in the datatracker. Thanks! > > I see that the RPC elected to use my magic formatting which has the whole > section presented as to get the format correct. Sounds like Jari is probably scraping the txt output. Fine. > Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, that > would solve the problem. Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this respect. Cheers Toerless > A > > -----Original Message----- > From: 'Toerless Eckert' > Sent: 15 July 2020 19:13 > To: Adrian Farrel > Cc: -interest@rfc-editor.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rfc-i] contributors section & tools > > Thanks, Adrian > > Any example XML for which you're aware that the contributor section was > correctly parsed, then > i will just clone that formatting. I do like the idea to format with all the > same contact > info as if the contributors where authors, but thats just for emphasizing > for human readers, > not for a poor script. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 07:04:35PM +0100, Adrian Farrel wrote: > > I believe Jari's script attempts to do this and counts Contributors in the > > author stats it generates > > > > The script is very vulnerable to formatting errors and since the > > Contributors section is usually hand-crafted, the script often misses > people > > or documents. > > > > Jari always welcomes fixes to the scripts. Last I looked there were lots > of > > "IF RFC=abcd THEN make this special exception" > > > > A > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of > > Toerless Eckert > > Sent: 15 July 2020 18:41 > > To: tools-discuss@ietf.org; rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > > Subject: [rfc-i] contributors section & tools > > > > Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that > > actually deparses names > > in a contributors section and does something with that information ? > > (aka: allows recognition stats like they are done for authors) ? > > > > I could not find anything in RFC 7749 that would allow me semantic tagging > > of contributors, > > Am i wrong ? > > > > If not, then parsing would have to be difficult and heuristic, and i > > therefore fear the answer to my > > above question is NO ? > > > > Wasthere not a time when we wanted to make contirbutors better > recognizeable > > ? > > > > Thanks > > Toerless > > _______________________________________________ > > rfc-interest mailing list > > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Jul 15 11:54:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E37A3A0982 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rIWiKVaa-yoy for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF37E3A0E2E for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B6RQD6vWMzyWV; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:54:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:54:44 +0200 Cc: Adrian Farrel , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616532084.461113-ce82a2b4aab729b205abab98a7772932 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:54:51 -0000 > On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 >> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, = that >> would solve the problem. >=20 > Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this = respect. It does. They are not very well documented. Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors = entry: author: - name: Carsten Bormann org: Universit=C3=A4t Bremen TZI street: Postfach 330440 city: Bremen code: D-28359 country: Germany phone: +49-421-218-63921 email: cabo@tzi.org contributor: - name: Peter Occil email: poccil14 at gmail dot com - name: Many More org: To do Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Jul 15 12:02:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C5D3A0EE7 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZMpMrPiEiaIc for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA32B3A0E9D for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6375F548047; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 21:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 59FC5440043; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 21:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 21:02:24 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Adrian Farrel , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:02:39 -0000 On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 08:54:44PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > >> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, that > >> would solve the problem. > > > > Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this respect. > > It does. They are not very well documented. Can you point me to a place so i can understand it ? Any pointer into rfc7991 (i could not find anything) or an actual XMLv3 RFC that does this (your latest published RFC with contributors section does not use anything new). > > Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry: Don't have the toolchain installed, so it would be ugly to be trying to figure out what XML it generates. If its easy for you to send me the XML generated from this, i would appreciate. Thanks! Toerless > author: > - name: Carsten Bormann > org: Universitt Bremen TZI > street: Postfach 330440 > city: Bremen > code: D-28359 > country: Germany > phone: +49-421-218-63921 > email: cabo@tzi.org > contributor: > - name: Peter Occil > email: poccil14 at gmail dot com > - name: Many More > org: To do > > Gre, Carsten -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Jul 15 12:59:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0393A0D25 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rOVQgnPZCwVp for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897A93A0A16 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D8C6601D3; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:59:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZyjOPVLqQHRq; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:59:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C65AA6600BA; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:59:25 +0300 (EEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:59:24 +0300 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:59:30 -0000 > Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that = actually deparses names > in a contributors section and does something with that information ? My tools actually do this. For the sake of listing documents or counting = authorship, explicitly listed people in the contributor section get = counted equally to those in the author section. My choice, of course. There are some rationales, basically about me = creating those tools initially to understand who is making these = standards, and contribution counts for that. May not fit everyone=E2=80=99= s model of things.=20 In a perfect world one could control what information one wants to show. = Or even be able to show who is acknowledged. Jari From nobody Wed Jul 15 13:03:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30D33A0F78 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 13:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wayNe6hGnMeW for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 13:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD7DC3A0F76 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 13:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B6SxT45wTzyNF; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:03:25 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:03:24 +0200 Cc: Adrian Farrel , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616536204.820172-b43063195481c0940afdcb0e693d4f53 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0AA658CF-66AA-403D-8C46-45A3BD945E73@tzi.org> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:03:30 -0000 > On 2020-07-15, at 21:02, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 08:54:44PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If = so, that >>>> would solve the problem. >>>=20 >>> Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this = respect. >>=20 >> It does. They are not very well documented. >=20 > Can you point me to a place so i can understand it ? Use the source, Luke. > Any pointer into rfc7991=20 > (i could not find anything) or an actual XMLv3 RFC that does this=20 > (your latest published RFC with contributors section does not use = anything new). (RFC 7991 is a description of a snapshot in the development of RFCXMLv3. The current version is described in the source of xml2rfc; partially = also in draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes-10.txt = (expired). RFC 8799 does use new XML in the contributors section. >>=20 >> Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors = entry: >=20 > Don't have the toolchain installed, A mistake :-) > so it would be ugly to be trying to figure > out what XML it generates. If its easy for you to send me the XML = generated > from this, i would appreciate. https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-cbor-notable-tags-02.xml Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Jul 15 16:38:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35003A0BA8 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:38:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id my4gpQXJcLaW for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 606EC3A0B8C for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C40204665; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QBs6gGYgxSxt; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.219] (c-71-227-153-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.227.153.114]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 94C08204664; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Alice Russo In-Reply-To: <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:37:59 -0700 Cc: Carsten Bormann , Adrian Farrel , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:38:06 -0000 Hi Toerless, There's a element with the same structure as the = element. =46rom the current schema = (https://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rn= c): contact =3D element contact { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute initials { text }?, attribute asciiInitials { text }?, attribute surname { text }?, attribute asciiSurname { text }?, attribute fullname { text }?, attribute asciiFullname { text }?, organization?, address? } For more info: https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/FAQ-xml2rfcv3.html#using_contact Thanks, Alice > On Jul 15, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 08:54:44PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If = so, that >>>> would solve the problem. >>>=20 >>> Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this = respect. >>=20 >> It does. They are not very well documented. >=20 > Can you point me to a place so i can understand it ? Any pointer into = rfc7991=20 > (i could not find anything) or an actual XMLv3 RFC that does this=20 > (your latest published RFC with contributors section does not use = anything new). >>=20 >> Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors = entry: >=20 > Don't have the toolchain installed, so it would be ugly to be trying = to figure > out what XML it generates. If its easy for you to send me the XML = generated > from this, i would appreciate. >=20 > Thanks! > Toerless >=20 >> author: >> - name: Carsten Bormann >> org: Universit=C3=A4t Bremen TZI >> street: Postfach 330440 >> city: Bremen >> code: D-28359 >> country: Germany >> phone: +49-421-218-63921 >> email: cabo@tzi.org >> contributor: >> - name: Peter Occil >> email: poccil14 at gmail dot com >> - name: Many More >> org: To do >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > --=20 > --- > tte@cs.fau.de >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 15 17:27:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3976F3A0F11; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:27:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVV2T-vcRaZk; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB4C93A0F0E; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C76F389E1; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id TuftFdb5Hmfs; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687E3389D5; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36946430; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:27:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Bob Hinden , Toerless Eckert , Greg Wood , Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <58C8CF5E-6745-4A15-B321-3EEF854ECBAD@gmail.com> References: <20200715160900.GD38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <58C8CF5E-6745-4A15-B321-3EEF854ECBAD@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meet echo test today X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 00:27:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Hinden wrote: > Running it on Chrome on MacOS 10.14, it did not give me a choice of > audio and video devices. It's in the settings for that page usually. You won't be asked if you previously approved things. > I have two screens, I didn=E2=80=99t see any way to move the differen= t parts to > different windows. As a w.g. chair, I would like to be able to see t= he > participant list (w/ queue requests) and the chat at the same time. > The current UI doesn=E2=80=99t seem to allow that. I think it is a = big issue > for chairing a session. I don't think that they are going to be able to easily "undock" these boxes. Chairs will have to 1) start a jabber client on their second screen and connect to the jabber= channel. 2) connect to the codimg in a browser tab on their second screen. It would be nice if the codimg link was made clickable so facilitate (2) without digging through DT pages. > I didn=E2=80=99t understand the separation between requesting audio a= nd video. > I think requesting video should include audio, maybe the audio one > should be audio-only. This is going to be confusing. Does the cha= ir > have to approve both? I also didn't get that. > One loud hum from one person is very different than everyone in the > room humming loudly. > Ideally a bar graph would allow the chair to get a much better sense = of > the room. Also, why are w.g. chairs not allowed to hum, but Area > Directors are? I don't know, but it doesn't bother me. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8PnvcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV0nQf+Nut8mBbjengH4ozKsXoz1gctXPZQfMtZxI7djw/IRTP8vKRzTxRIEs01 N56Dot/Ma1fBkKlJOo25oe5P8Wgau9cvuVcD9N+nLE5dQfI2p+dvzbPFo92tvWvZ 74beLsSYeKkNzf/FIYg2g7445kI9KkubUbAMnks+GjfmNrup40sLTKS8TOpfFxj2 8GOxhx2l87Xrjx9XHjzgYRC9ZkV/3RB4X6dY4Fh4y7scCc6Zj4YDneqIy1EA5iS7 4NwX1myrgMC4LHrqfyMR0Pee1QnnwKPIiqq26CvLAx/1WJ2iRIPC5g9e4S0PlJqM fQc2I1QFbvk9GMDzMMn+CZTvD023eA== =xpnz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 18:31:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36F63A0989 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:30:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V7CYUfTYauft for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54D563A08F4 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9290548047; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:30:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id C0F0E440043; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:30:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:30:48 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Alice Russo Cc: RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200716013048.GB35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:31:00 -0000 Nice. Who'd know v3 had undocumented features ;-)) Thanks! Toerless On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 04:37:59PM -0700, Alice Russo wrote: > Hi Toerless, > > There's a element with the same structure as the element. > From the current schema (https://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc): > > contact = > element contact { > attribute xml:base { text }?, > attribute xml:lang { text }?, > attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, > attribute initials { text }?, > attribute asciiInitials { text }?, > attribute surname { text }?, > attribute asciiSurname { text }?, > attribute fullname { text }?, > attribute asciiFullname { text }?, > organization?, > address? > } > > For more info: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/FAQ-xml2rfcv3.html#using_contact > > Thanks, > Alice > > > On Jul 15, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 08:54:44PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>> > >>>> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, that > >>>> would solve the problem. > >>> > >>> Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this respect. > >> > >> It does. They are not very well documented. > > > > Can you point me to a place so i can understand it ? Any pointer into rfc7991 > > (i could not find anything) or an actual XMLv3 RFC that does this > > (your latest published RFC with contributors section does not use anything new). > >> > >> Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry: > > > > Don't have the toolchain installed, so it would be ugly to be trying to figure > > out what XML it generates. If its easy for you to send me the XML generated > > from this, i would appreciate. > > > > Thanks! > > Toerless > > > >> author: > >> - name: Carsten Bormann > >> org: Universitt Bremen TZI > >> street: Postfach 330440 > >> city: Bremen > >> code: D-28359 > >> country: Germany > >> phone: +49-421-218-63921 > >> email: cabo@tzi.org > >> contributor: > >> - name: Peter Occil > >> email: poccil14 at gmail dot com > >> - name: Many More > >> org: To do > >> > >> Gre, Carsten > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Jul 16 03:03:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3E03A00AD for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bAZd5TfR-afN for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58CC53A0063 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:03:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1594893805; bh=5OvNOjrABiQVfYOPsCAJv9QSf65z3hH+glONUPbU0as=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Nk85NmxX/PqJNjua0KesFhGvZPi92CcGUzxp3YYTOm012jxFPq777YbkkLpC0csnL 2wJah1oAzF4TOhvyOxShYCYLLqjcA11NW/gkDq3gm1ABCGpMZjvllKTJl7w0814A1/ zlC08cZhlrDzFmdlefYUaIuOcBy1PHsqMoiAWnk0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M5fIW-1juOAx0MmY-007EJK; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:03:25 +0200 To: Toerless Eckert , Alice Russo Cc: RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20200716013048.GB35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:03:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200716013048.GB35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vzaXNWSlO99dmtEaJs4WZPzRs4JTyt/rFCSedEZZ4ofX+H4q1NZ Sn0KhOxT1rjhy9Vel/+mo5yhtuo4XQAj8/wZa3n/fztwVENZveJ5crrkcuwmWhyNRLVLb7E Bzh65TiMwo9napFFkIEPYsdav+pyN74E5dvnPjzFQdf94osYg3Hq6fSPFb4hnoXb/WEECfm 8yaoNgsEbalKGK5GObiGg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:IaOABF0ERRQ=:WfU3QKzSnJGc0xn/Qq3KjG ktiMMc88W4iSQ0k6nf3Myx0qpEMHW+zTKJjtY0u1KDAXwou/vmVEgOXMarKrEYfMc0iKfMJWD J2Y/1VQqUrTnT0NIFtlqi4V8fqzUvKDZOOpLfgqD20SdYZlkKZdz4if8jcMNGWlx9YKss70Pk 1nUfA5o7RkyNNKy7BifLQHqG5sKd4bzrc02FYolGYKFdXZg6bUqr9BXt/6ldWHTaJdkbW1P6e dBF1RtGjSVRaXps9IbT+iWLtCnJgvZSC7CN3TIjGKqVc5hwbA9JYXidmLhW6s2Kq3ak1h6cFj wZUOdYUob7vJ3cGY3o9WmTjJH56Ci1YPTmLrKQBimaJaexB321qUEdXbMQu/wGwdE4TpqCRbl UYrxjbEEhgLaY1JoIKyJMO2GM+xB6sx2mqDbACIJx3JoTpRTXBTGC9chp04RJIUbSRBBQsdOd A05w3VcEpE/Ohm+y7YmKeGWcurzL4VAGppRL+so3LlaWsJDMNrAfOuKq5HmVotZae9toYBdK1 fpn1FZMIL05AHuxu9t9HGRXzbH6XuYKXM7fySxkUWVtHh8eJoUSvfFr/gLQKsWyqQ8VrKJJ4x QA4o/a/k/u5MrjljYRCrbX7hieBw2iE8J8rqtBxDIoLFPJ+RPqGifYnpFGICgsEncC1Co5WHH fPB5CqztICvTgLhh/j6rNkPQeScaIlI54r9JHGVLQOIdvw1efPHXssPFO2mXVBqd0Klf3L6RG bNhstylzkWwcMg5mxGhYuXCDV3/+xwlpudbGKuv0jbEfO6Lb4ORzUjZZTG2+d2/d/TRxTCOxq ZaEP51IhaVFapp56FSYhRgVfTBA21v5VQWRuZaDXW6PQ3fw8AFx8Tl42zJaY/5OyeNzSLuC0V 0ya42DKZjmolYhAZrGylb1DGSAylBu2rPQOROiC0wmPTqE2a1MgaU2mHjs72Tn31cmnrMgPm/ L211i0wFakVKxxZ94kSuLJNl6v3g/VbpfJRjdwpurEfeF1xd1W6zpFUM5YXlVqAoCM7W017LB LDYb3RJDcpqK1N9xBwlIJSGvLDU1XD0zwAg75RcRn5DPAHyGfc7de9uBy75THPr8MGYtKk/1c pPhRgc/lNUTWs7pOHXvkL5PxIgAqTGki3RNisSp2Rk0VpCkZgYP6MXFKYGNarS3wLUzuUUZda 096alW9lSjkNzrjYsGg3bBLIqTCxYkUW9cCZTky8Zd+rztebcXzb6yE4MaICtpeBck0cqj52X HA/5GwYfiruGs0YNjTGu9343Tye1QFhYJjPFBuQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:03:44 -0000 On 16.07.2020 03:30, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > Nice. Who'd know v3 had undocumented features ;-)) > ... There are undocumented features, but this one actually *is* documented in https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-iab-rfc7991bis-latest.html#element= .contact Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Jul 16 14:00:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A8E3A0CE8 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LONGWORDS=2.035, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUfksbu4bEm2 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 439143A0CE7 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48217389A9; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id dYr44kH7gTrE; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DC0389A8; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C29748B; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 17:00:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , Toerless Eckert , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:00:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> >>> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, that >>> would solve the problem. >> >> Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this respect. > It does. They are not very well documented. > Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry: > contributor: > - name: Peter Occil > email: poccil14 at gmail dot com > - name: Many More > org: To do Thank you, I very much like this. I also noticed today that there was an IESG todo item: Warren Kumari to work on acknowledging shepherds, directorate reviewers in a more standardized/formal way. - Added 2019-10-10 (18 telechats ago) so, I tried this. I had a section called "Contributors" already, in the old textual form. And it actually details some major contributions, so I didn't want to remove it, so I have slightly renamed it. ("Notable Contributions") With just name:/email:, I get many complaints from xml2rfc: : Line 1655: No declaration for element contact : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute initials of element contact : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute surname of element contact : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute fullname of element contact I obviously know how to solve this by putting more stuff in. But, the bigger problem seems to be: : Line 1614: Element section content does not follow the DTD, expecting ((t | figure | texttable | iref)* , section*), got (name contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact) kramdown-rfc2629-1.3.8 xml2rfc 2.23.1 ... upgrading to 2.46.0. same result. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8QwAMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWuVwgAh46XizDwP9GtP7TUnM35qPG9Psvb2cx0u43tRmZ7rklo09dTSxKSraAm eJZtpI6j/hQ/FMzbsRlCMmBtfptaNchB21BaigkmYnaa2Q0BXsvn3B+728ulLAOU AIRNSW2ziJhOtIqZpriINmmP0aLhLlQnb+XpyakyYlvkr9ac97/eRsPVjLKAAcMs Qn+RccSm3qDCkqeQ1Wjh0lGQHUWYngiXdd6/quPeAN4Au9bgqP4QV0jqxgIH5Mh/ AP0E4aN/5S6kGpo8to+2TRsY6IFTpminolobirxexyiHvRXtt5FblbxBc+hArOTd JerjVDyO1O3SsDV8L5I07n2FttV71w== =7jz8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jul 16 15:37:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FEC3A0DBB for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LONGWORDS=2.035, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zQIsTFFWkd92 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79C1E3A0DB9 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B78JJ2rDvzyVJ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:37:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3756C8F8-0844-458C-8340-EBDCAEAFD5EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <25009.1594933252@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:37:03 +0200 Cc: Toerless Eckert , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org, Warren Kumari Message-Id: <69BD6664-8CC0-4400-83B6-4BD356F1E45F@tzi.org> References: <25009.1594933252@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 22:37:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3756C8F8-0844-458C-8340-EBDCAEAFD5EF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You need the -3 flag in kdrfc Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 16. Jul 2020, at 23:01, Michael Richardson wrot= e: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, t= hat >>>> would solve the problem. >>>=20 >>> Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this respe= ct. >=20 >> It does. They are not very well documented. >=20 >> Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry:= >=20 >> contributor: >> - name: Peter Occil >> email: poccil14 at gmail dot com >> - name: Many More >> org: To do >=20 > Thank you, I very much like this. > I also noticed today that there was an IESG todo item: > Warren Kumari to work on acknowledging shepherds, directorate > reviewers in a more standardized/formal way. > - Added 2019-10-10 (18 telechats ago) >=20 > so, I tried this. >=20 > I had a section called "Contributors" already, in the old textual form. > And it actually details some major contributions, so I didn't want to remo= ve > it, so I have slightly renamed it. ("Notable Contributions") >=20 > With just name:/email:, I get many complaints from xml2rfc: > : Line 1655: No declaration for element contact > : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute initials of element cont= act > : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute surname of element conta= ct > : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute fullname of element cont= act >=20 > I obviously know how to solve this by putting more stuff in. > But, the bigger problem seems to be: >=20 > : Line 1614: Element section content does not follow the DTD, > expecting ((t | figure | texttable | iref)* , section*), got (name contact= > contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact > contact contact contact) >=20 > kramdown-rfc2629-1.3.8 > xml2rfc 2.23.1 > ... upgrading to 2.46.0. > same result. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --Apple-Mail-3756C8F8-0844-458C-8340-EBDCAEAFD5EF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You need the -3 flag in kdrfc

Sent from mobile, sorry for= terse

On 16. Jul= 2020, at 23:01, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
=
=EF=BB=BF<= span>
Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
=
On 2020-07-15, at 2= 0:50, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
=
Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has specia= l tags for contributors. If so, that
would solve the problem.

Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements i= n this respect.

It does.  They are not very well documented.

Kramd= own-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry:<= br>

contributor= :
- name: Peter Occil=
email: poccil14 at g= mail dot com
- name: M= any More
org: To do

Thank you, I very much like thi= s.
I also noticed today that there was an IESG todo item:
   Warren Kumari to work on acknowledging shep= herds, directorate
   reviewers in a more st= andardized/formal way.
   - Added 2019-10-10= (18 telechats ago)

so, I tried this.

I had a section called "Contributors" already, i= n the old textual form.
And it actually details some major c= ontributions, so I didn't want to remove
it, so I have sligh= tly renamed it. ("Notable Contributions")

W= ith just name:/email:, I get many complaints from xml2rfc:
&= lt;string>: Line 1655: No declaration for element contact
<string>: Line 1655: No declaration for attribute initials of elemen= t contact
<string>: Line 1655: No declaration for att= ribute surname of element contact
<string>: Line 1655= : No declaration for attribute fullname of element contact
<= /span>
I obviously know how to solve this by putting more stuff in.=
But, the bigger problem seems to be:

<string>: Line 1614: Element section content does not follo= w the DTD,
expecting ((t | figure | texttable | iref)* , sec= tion*), got (name contact
contact contact contact contact co= ntact contact contact contact contact
contact contact contac= t)

kramdown-rfc2629-1.3.8
x= ml2rfc 2.23.1
... upgrading to 2.46.0.
&nbs= p;  same result.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Work= s
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
= --Apple-Mail-3756C8F8-0844-458C-8340-EBDCAEAFD5EF-- From nobody Thu Jul 16 15:45:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4F03A0DC6 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LONGWORDS=2.035, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A9IXDuE3QFcJ for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E20933A0DC5 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B78TQ04DzzyVJ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:44:58 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-05D964B1-3179-4283-97AC-B4E6B5B435F8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <69BD6664-8CC0-4400-83B6-4BD356F1E45F@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:44:57 +0200 Cc: RFC Interest , Toerless Eckert , Warren Kumari , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <3CCFC1B7-06F7-4292-91FD-685535584E5B@tzi.org> References: <69BD6664-8CC0-4400-83B6-4BD356F1E45F@tzi.org> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 22:45:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail-05D964B1-3179-4283-97AC-B4E6B5B435F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or - - v 3 in XXL rfc if you call that directly Sent from mobile, sorry for terse and autocorrect > On 17. Jul 2020, at 00:37, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFYou need the -3 flag in kdrfc >=20 > Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >=20 >>> On 16. Jul 2020, at 23:01, Michael Richardson wr= ote: >>>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>> On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contributors. If so, t= hat >>>>> would solve the problem. >>>>=20 >>>> Scanning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this resp= ect. >>=20 >>> It does. They are not very well documented. >>=20 >>> Kramdown-rfc supports them by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry= : >>=20 >>> contributor: >>> - name: Peter Occil >>> email: poccil14 at gmail dot com >>> - name: Many More >>> org: To do >>=20 >> Thank you, I very much like this. >> I also noticed today that there was an IESG todo item: >> Warren Kumari to work on acknowledging shepherds, directorate >> reviewers in a more standardized/formal way. >> - Added 2019-10-10 (18 telechats ago) >>=20 >> so, I tried this. >>=20 >> I had a section called "Contributors" already, in the old textual form. >> And it actually details some major contributions, so I didn't want to rem= ove >> it, so I have slightly renamed it. ("Notable Contributions") >>=20 >> With just name:/email:, I get many complaints from xml2rfc: >> : Line 1655: No declaration for element contact >> : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute initials of element con= tact >> : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute surname of element cont= act >> : Line 1655: No declaration for attribute fullname of element con= tact >>=20 >> I obviously know how to solve this by putting more stuff in. >> But, the bigger problem seems to be: >>=20 >> : Line 1614: Element section content does not follow the DTD, >> expecting ((t | figure | texttable | iref)* , section*), got (name contac= t >> contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact contact >> contact contact contact) >>=20 >> kramdown-rfc2629-1.3.8 >> xml2rfc 2.23.1 >> ... upgrading to 2.46.0. >> same result. >>=20 >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --Apple-Mail-05D964B1-3179-4283-97AC-B4E6B5B435F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or - - v 3 in XXL rfc if you call that dire= ctly

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse and autocorrect

On 17. Jul 2020, at 00:37, Carsten Bormann <cabo@= tzi.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFYou need the -3 flag in kdrfc

Sent f= rom mobile, sorry for terse

On 16. Jul 2020, at 23:01, M= ichael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

<= /div>
=EF=BB=BF
Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2020-07-15, at 20:50, Toerless Eck= ert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

<= /blockquote>
Not sure whether xml2rfc v3 has special tags for contribu= tors. If so, that
w= ould solve the problem.

Sc= anning through rfc7991 there seems to be no enhancements in this respect.

It does.  They are not very well documented.

Kramdown-rfc supports t= hem by adding a YAML entry like the authors entry:

contributor:
- name: Peter Occil
email: poccil14 at gmail dot com
- name: Many More
org: To do

Thank you, I very much like this.
I also noticed today that there was an IESG todo item:
&n= bsp;  Warren Kumari to work on acknowledging shepherds, directorat= e
   reviewers in a more standardized/formal= way.
   - Added 2019-10-10 (18 telechats ag= o)

so, I tried this.

I had a section called "Contributors" already, in the old textual= form.
And it actually details some major contributions, so I= didn't want to remove
it, so I have slightly renamed it. ("= Notable Contributions")

With just name:/ema= il:, I get many complaints from xml2rfc:
<string>: Li= ne 1655: No declaration for element contact
<string>:= Line 1655: No declaration for attribute initials of element contact<= br> <string>: Line 1655: No declaration for attribute surname of= element contact
<string>: Line 1655: No declaration f= or attribute fullname of element contact

I o= bviously know how to solve this by putting more stuff in.
Bu= t, the bigger problem seems to be:

<stri= ng>: Line 1614: Element section content does not follow the DTD,expecting ((t | figure | texttable | iref)* , section*), got (name c= ontact
contact contact contact contact contact contact conta= ct contact contact
contact contact contact)
=
kramdown-rfc2629-1.3.8
xml2rfc 2.23.1
... upgrading to 2.46.0.
   same r= esult.

--
Michael Richardso= n <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
-= =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
____________= ___________________________________
rfc-interest mailing lis= t
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rf= c-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
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Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:33:25 +0000 To: Jari Arkko , Toerless Eckert References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org From: tom petch Message-ID: <5F117062.3090300@btconnect.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:33:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0380.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a3::32) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.65] (81.131.229.35) by LO2P265CA0380.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a3::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.20.3195.18 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:33:24 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.131.229.35] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 0b1ffc4b-547f-4df0-95be-08d82a34742d X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR07MB5168: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508; 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For the sake of listing documents or counting authorship, explicitly listed people in the contributor section get counted equally to those in the author section. > > My choice, of course. There are some rationales, basically about me creating those tools initially to understand who is making these standards, and contribution counts for that. May not fit everyone’s model of things. > > In a perfect world one could control what information one wants to show. Or even be able to show who is acknowledged. Tweaking the subject slightly for a related question which is bugging me, what about all those editors who appear in YANG modules, modules which must be plain text so that they can be extracted and used outside the IETF environment? Tom Petch > Jari > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > From nobody Fri Jul 17 08:04:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C953A0C66 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hwHGg1CsD0XA for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8C13A0C62 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7ED389A6 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id OtRyB_y4-RsH for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01EE389A3 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCA924C for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] a meetecho in every pot X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 15:04:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I was on the chair's orientation on Wed. It was great. Bugs and all, it's an improvement for me over everything else. What will it take/cost to have meetecho for all/my virtual interim meetings? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8RvecACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUAiwgAoSxmrf6xSEag/E9lVzp6tkSTLcAzRmacA+oYM1gTW4gAa6Jt2pnV++xF f5+C734+cB3Kw6ne2GbdZ6E0+g5sZPhFCD0U7/Mt8FIkpsCayHYerF9xRMJijX3i Z3zxz9QZmSzqnNYMGTzvXR2k9WSW8bgZS2m3F9NzulKvNREkaBAzT9k+zyizkUVF KVdwI2rdhCJqFixklZjKmOJDpUMROphxchG9HjtIGiEa3Xp41YI5D241LCaQqM/l pxc5C+Sbt7pJxRTzzhjEi7t2HUrprSOkr4NRc9D4erOa3unAhcltqSSL+kpj050t scF9nENttM7ohIRs1QS6idWYSfS9ng== =24Nt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jul 17 09:37:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B686D3A094A for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:37:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7jlZJP5B0K5 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31CB13A0943 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B7cGW63VyzyW7; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <16430.1594998248@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:37:07 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616696626.998173-433f874125f0fea459878cdbc8e424e3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <16430.1594998248@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] a meetecho in every pot X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:37:13 -0000 On 2020-07-17, at 17:04, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > What will it take/cost to have meetecho for all/my virtual interim = meetings? Additional question: And for all side meetings as well? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Jul 17 10:08:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E4E3A09C7 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JCEqyhWQl0bx for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6870F3A09BE for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5DB548068; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 19220440043; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:08:13 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss Message-ID: <20200717170813.GJ35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <16430.1594998248@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16430.1594998248@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] a meetecho in every pot X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:08:21 -0000 +1 would be interresting to learn the costs associated with this. Without being able to have a room to experiment with, like i have in IETF webex, i know that the result during IETF108 for me as a chair can likely be miserable. Alas, the working group rooms do not exist right now. It would be prudent if they would exist over the coming week so chairs can experiment on their own with them. With webex, i do not have to follow somebody else's schedule, i did experiment whenever i had time. Which in fairness was much less necessary with webex, because it is a tool i used outside of IETF anyhow. Whereas the new meetecho - not so much. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:04:08AM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > > I was on the chair's orientation on Wed. > It was great. Bugs and all, it's an improvement for me over everything else. > > What will it take/cost to have meetecho for all/my virtual interim meetings? > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Jul 17 10:53:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C563A09DE for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.412 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.412 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.267, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f0qXRVO6ZPdB for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DF673A09D6 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Zephyrus.local (c-73-183-186-87.hsd1.tx.comcast.net [73.183.186.87]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 06HHrWZF088806 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:53:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1595008414; bh=qo6u8FEjfdilK38sbrzts5DSa57cbd2U1CCAXnYHBWQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=hllXkIf6taTMGWfVfxLYTz2gOJXc3tV/5NND22ayBDc3/1B2SydFlnnEVA7Q/tXkt O6NhBpItJqeIvW9gx4W51GpN2OQD2dXMtDPO/BU7HupC8lFrVoOAWQcm3oXaq62FJD 9d67du9JzjZ00qS5La96WMZM1EeY0oSQi140FAps= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host c-73-183-186-87.hsd1.tx.comcast.net [73.183.186.87] claimed to be Zephyrus.local To: Toerless Eckert , Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss References: <16430.1594998248@localhost> <20200717170813.GJ35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <78974377-7315-4bf4-c3c7-34d0d772c55b@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:53:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200717170813.GJ35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] a meetecho in every pot X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:53:52 -0000 On 7/17/20 12:08, Toerless Eckert wrote: > would be interresting to learn the costs associated with this. I have no information beyond what's publicly available, but we can back a rough estimate out from the IETF budget [1]. Taking the line for "Remote Participation Support," you can see that we're paying an average of $63,000 per week-long meeting. An IETF week has roughly 250 meeting hours with remote support. So during a meeting week, it looks like Meetecho support costs very roughly $250 an hour. I'm sure that there are some setup and tear-down costs amortized over these hours; at the same time, none of the in-person setup (cameras, etc) would be necessary. Those factors act in opposition to each other, so it's highly likely that the $250/hour number is at least in the right ballpark. My own observation is that interim meetings tend to be about two hours long, and many of them have populations of ~10-20 participants. Given the hem and haw over the registration costs for the upcoming meeting, I'm guessing asking $25 - $50 per person for interim meetings might cause some heartburn. /a ___ [1] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_2019_Budget_Public_2018-12-19.pdf From nobody Fri Jul 17 11:24:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFCD3A0A20 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:24:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntXb2DFpEbru for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4524D3A0A1F for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B7fdl6SqnzyYv; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 20:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <5F117062.3090300@btconnect.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 20:23:55 +0200 Cc: RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616703035.30407-af20157b2c2c53e9eba62f056a21b750 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7581DFF3-A06E-4B6C-81FE-83B23A14A31A@tzi.org> References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <5F117062.3090300@btconnect.com> To: tom petch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools & YANG X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:24:00 -0000 On 2020-07-17, at 11:33, tom petch wrote: >=20 > what about all those editors who appear in YANG modules Yeah, what about them? Er, this is a bit undirected for a question. I believe you should avoid sugared carbonated drinks before editing YANG = modules, but maybe that wasn=E2=80=99t your question. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Jul 17 14:19:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0BD3A07D7 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:15:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TINZoWET5f5C for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23AB53A0ADB for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:52929 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jwXgS-0003hl-7b; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:14:20 -0700 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , Toerless Eckert References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0AA658CF-66AA-403D-8C46-45A3BD945E73@tzi.org> Cc: Adrian Farrel , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <0a31c537-cc34-4d94-a105-a20411632809@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 23:14:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0AA658CF-66AA-403D-8C46-45A3BD945E73@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IsSdps2RB7XECn87Cj9JOu2Nn2PkUcavB" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk, tte@cs.fau.de, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 21:15:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IsSdps2RB7XECn87Cj9JOu2Nn2PkUcavB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="CCu7iUKw5f7rAVgiPdAXMEgaBGmBNBVw8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , Toerless Eckert Cc: Adrian Farrel , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <0a31c537-cc34-4d94-a105-a20411632809@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b4801d65ad2$66a268c0$33e73a40$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715181233.GH38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0b5a01d65ad5$1763aaf0$462b00d0$@olddog.co.uk> <20200715185023.GI38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <34B0AF82-777B-4C51-9853-832312325C3B@tzi.org> <20200715190224.GA35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0AA658CF-66AA-403D-8C46-45A3BD945E73@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <0AA658CF-66AA-403D-8C46-45A3BD945E73@tzi.org> --CCu7iUKw5f7rAVgiPdAXMEgaBGmBNBVw8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Toerless, Carsten, Adrian, On 2020-07-15 22:03, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Any pointer into rfc7991=20 >> (i could not find anything) or an actual XMLv3 RFC that does this=20 >> (your latest published RFC with contributors section does not use anyt= hing new). > (RFC 7991 is a description of a snapshot in the development of > RFCXMLv3. The current version is described in the source of xml2rfc; > partially also in > draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes-10.txt (expired). In connection with updating draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-not= es over the couple of weeks, I've also added documentation to xml2rfc, gener= ated from: - the actual XML schema distributed with the tool - the differences between the current schema and the RFC7991 schema - the code's settings for which elements and attributes are deprecated= - text snippets describing the schema parts and how the code handles t= hem. It will have new --doc/--docfile and --man/--manpage switches; the first = will generate documentation in the form of a v3 XML document that can then its= elf be processed to generate the various supported formats. The second, --man= , will generate the documentation XML internally and then process it to text out= put which is shown with a pager, like 'man'. I hope this will help overcome the painful lack of documentation. It is = part of the 2.47.0 release I've just uploaded. Best regards, Henrik --CCu7iUKw5f7rAVgiPdAXMEgaBGmBNBVw8-- --IsSdps2RB7XECn87Cj9JOu2Nn2PkUcavB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl8SFKQACgkQTptXS4+7 FxrYFg/9GAHKhw6yjdNl6nGyld7xj/mVZwayXbmtN3/isb0xNCNlrNt7bQaB/egj XLge0mVczNGU3z8OO1TqzeurFTiGZghMlrM3JsSsFS9zu9efYD/Hn0prScVbtDb8 K3etYEin+O2Mh8BSIKWwPKm0Qg6PFOH/GcXWaC5KrQoLS8IjcWyfQU8R7sUWcjDo ApqeuEtPh+oNeGtVRmxTlJepMRAdKHC0l72umj6eF+G24ZpdYuQ1Hu+NaJMtuiw3 a375akuEyQK8CLbdEdbGLGWIrUdMStRVba7zTYkTF+iGlCp8VfZWRkqLXpFPDj5N 5xCbeAU+l21m+TejLAQJ7NaPaqxls0J1Ycbz6SPDJVivol8eCCJfNstVXw3r1vjV aWi5oh1XMn0diVARC6lSjckNa4z2ui9WYNH0qWKCwLLkUAdI0Bo/GWIP3xHJ2Lab FRyWfa1SckJbJhsJhwaiFe/wygoyW7tDxMbdLB6Q5GO4uD3GpzDatm2jPzkbH1L8 RcCmucAsHMLYKDjnMe0r0SgafzCzSbpXwhd63KIh9vfgng4pt+j4yjPnKNN5cf2N lDD6WJ0h7CcwTJhZJ6n5We7u4xGdlM1Wk1jScrTyxcbtpVhp8kjoaUBq4xWxqGWR 03iqVWMgyfNAQFKRtkQXltSzpJBVRNLJDqXvigZgDQ6RhevY05Y= =cNgi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IsSdps2RB7XECn87Cj9JOu2Nn2PkUcavB-- From nobody Sat Jul 18 21:42:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715113A08FE for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2020 21:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RWvB8BQ2_vqk for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2020 21:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F28B3A08FD for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2020 21:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E42389C6; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 00:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id XkKK6Xxm6Nwr; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 00:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9202389C5; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 00:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7F4470; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 00:42:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: Toerless Eckert , RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org, Warren Kumari In-Reply-To: <69BD6664-8CC0-4400-83B6-4BD356F1E45F@tzi.org> References: <25009.1594933252@localhost> <69BD6664-8CC0-4400-83B6-4BD356F1E45F@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] contributors section & tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 04:42:07 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Carsten Bormann wrote: > You need the -3 flag in kdrfc It was being invoked from Martin Thompson script. I think that I must have debugging it wrong after getting the update, because now it works great. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8TzxgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWb/Af/RqEf7lhRO6gfN3MGbTRBTrwJ0Xo46C36upodsJWhYRl+iP2CYafkUWBN VSF7xdv0ipsWW3NsA/WwkNaH30OWb1TNv/iam062x1uR0jFOdpJ1Qkm1mD2M2Y0g 3yntSlepFi548jV7NZJ9dFRaFmjRRKg9tiE+20X68kaZNuWH5orIziiuRV2IR4Es MnwEhfF9M7I3SAR+RcEuBGH1MZtlut0alFSjuASIBp0gxFOnc/6sfLr2bymYROvg CCzPX/jqL7/iLA9kTLN/GnqnpKWdvu2ZOuN+dGO73d/R4vr+TZnR/bdTD/wNT06t 9dKXOQ7C1sg206m0HxhCdllHnYORFA== =kSiX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Jul 19 13:22:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949893A0873 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) by VI1PR07MB4336.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:802:5b::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3195.9; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 20:22:50 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::bc6a:1add:e84e:f19b]) by VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::bc6a:1add:e84e:f19b%8]) with mapi id 15.20.3216.018; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 20:22:50 +0000 To: Carsten Bormann References: <20200715174047.GF38490@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <5F117062.3090300@btconnect.com> <7581DFF3-A06E-4B6C-81FE-83B23A14A31A@tzi.org> Cc: RFC Interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org From: tom petch Message-ID: <5F14AB95.9030302@btconnect.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 21:22:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: <7581DFF3-A06E-4B6C-81FE-83B23A14A31A@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; 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The question I had in mind was > Is there any tool from e.g.: the IETF or Arkko publishing houses that actually deparses names > in a contributors section and does something with that information ? and was asking whether by default or by option the names that are listed in a YANG module in an IETF I-D are treated in the same way as contributors section names are bearing in mind that YANG modules must be plain text? Tom Petch > > Grüße, Carsten > > . > From nobody Mon Jul 20 07:54:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841593A0BB3 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DOVCdvvLvpz9 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755D93A0BB1 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id f5so8439560ybq.2 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sV4yTGKVOqVNFmhzvFm6w26nGImHYU+IIkerx6jafnk=; b=LpWjUXou3o/lQFqJS4SO/s5zLju4HLc9EYTYfWE+AC+nPOqVvcCx7agBwGPvzxSFmp nSYzwXUR+2od1tMCQOc6+mVFDI59/UmJWL7DeqIzxFxIHoU6RFX8vvl7cYw4vjyR/m5c VlNVXVAIP+D2jGEGgNHAbXpzcdovYXJC04b98ZXFwWZdmGMf+v+cn2ecj/VKzvUsD67e BkJAhgLuhJO7XAexlde00ZD0Ere9dCStaq4eUWdqW5j1Tg4nHH3q+q9/1RPVFOCqWZrb GU8EELKo8iFVPOfAENysnRxmh3gyhDzEMxKJ2EpcjxX3FQi2iiG2qbOO0QeXlsqb/Oc5 PRbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sV4yTGKVOqVNFmhzvFm6w26nGImHYU+IIkerx6jafnk=; b=JXoQBzi/qYv5h1j6OcL3Scgw9aUuyh+xjCQRDJqzf3ezKTdHuwPN1IEVC75gNCHoOc j9+vJTOFmMfDpGzNJgroO2E0y15Tg8kzhet0pje5xCdFn2vNO1KdyMxioAzgKdhqS2J2 sfcua8ZIg37b26zemsarxq6RkEwe6nFWFNX9mdTSgEumdaGW/KTUOUKwJWmWolHiOSm8 bQHYuGU4pQPl16BYvJ58Z76Nk4qkswopMvVS5rP+jWDAV5Jsdtlex+4Ozte+fJYvGoKL 9YeUSZ20fbYU90RYekbwAOlCHfT8D+n7fy3N/4/cmmAxyfitZP5OsFz4X4mAFZ9L9JVJ NVyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PgNet5UFwbo4XVD7P7ZMF9TfJrsd8oNke2O+nvGA+EY/6nApe 1TwMYWrzoNb6d0VW538+tXJjspIJWEkmkaIAymsTT5ZO X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYayoYckU/3CI+gPxpv3FsMYbpuXemAbPunO0J87StoQV/0ppZ019wNubWMKeNsoy3YacG4TV7A6QoMffo5KA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:be86:: with SMTP id i6mr34278443ybk.258.1595256878515; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16430.1594998248@localhost> <20200717170813.GJ35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <78974377-7315-4bf4-c3c7-34d0d772c55b@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <78974377-7315-4bf4-c3c7-34d0d772c55b@nostrum.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:54:14 -0400 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Toerless Eckert , Michael Richardson , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000091cc3e05aae0af7c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] a meetecho in every pot X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 14:54:42 -0000 --00000000000091cc3e05aae0af7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" If that estimate is right, that is a horrifically high cost, especially for what we're getting here. All of the standard video conferencing platforms offer smoother, more standard UX (including basic things like active speaker indication and usable tooltips, which I've noticed are lacking from Meetecho) for a far lower price. You could have Webex or Zoom or Meet for around 1% of that cost per meeting. Our special snowflake features are not worth it. --Richard On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:54 PM Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/17/20 12:08, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > would be interresting to learn the costs associated with this. > > > I have no information beyond what's publicly available, but we can back > a rough estimate out from the IETF budget [1]. Taking the line for > "Remote Participation Support," you can see that we're paying an average > of $63,000 per week-long meeting. An IETF week has roughly 250 meeting > hours with remote support. So during a meeting week, it looks like > Meetecho support costs very roughly $250 an hour. I'm sure that there > are some setup and tear-down costs amortized over these hours; at the > same time, none of the in-person setup (cameras, etc) would be > necessary. Those factors act in opposition to each other, so it's highly > likely that the $250/hour number is at least in the right ballpark. > > My own observation is that interim meetings tend to be about two hours > long, and many of them have populations of ~10-20 participants. Given > the hem and haw over the registration costs for the upcoming meeting, > I'm guessing asking $25 - $50 per person for interim meetings might > cause some heartburn. > > /a > > ___ > [1] > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_2019_Budget_Public_2018-12-19.pdf > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --00000000000091cc3e05aae0af7c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If that estimate is right, that is a horrifically hig= h cost, especially for what we're getting here.=C2=A0 All of the standa= rd video conferencing platforms offer smoother, more standard UX (including= basic things like active speaker indication and usable tooltips, which I&#= 39;ve noticed are lacking from Meetecho) for a far lower price.=C2=A0 You c= ould have Webex or Zoom or Meet for around 1% of that cost per meeting.

Our special snowflake=C2=A0features are not worth it.=

--Richard


On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1= :54 PM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com<= /a>> wrote:
O= n 7/17/20 12:08, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> would be interresting to learn the costs associated with this.


I have no information beyond what's publicly available, but we can back=
a rough estimate out from the IETF budget [1]. Taking the line for
"Remote Participation Support," you can see that we're paying= an average
of $63,000 per week-long meeting. An IETF week has roughly 250 meeting
hours with remote support. So during a meeting week, it looks like
Meetecho support costs very roughly $250 an hour. I'm sure that there <= br> are some setup and tear-down costs amortized over these hours; at the
same time, none of the in-person setup (cameras, etc) would be
necessary. Those factors act in opposition to each other, so it's highl= y
likely that the $250/hour number is at least in the right ballpark.

My own observation is that interim meetings tend to be about two hours
long, and many of them have populations of ~10-20 participants. Given
the hem and haw over the registration costs for the upcoming meeting,
I'm guessing asking $25 - $50 per person for interim meetings might cause some heartburn.

/a

___
[1]
https://www.ietf.org/medi= a/documents/IETF_2019_Budget_Public_2018-12-19.pdf

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu= ss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--00000000000091cc3e05aae0af7c-- From nobody Mon Jul 20 08:18:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDB93A0C3C; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BAE4-HaLS8R; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 08:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A03CD3A0C37; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 08:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:53993 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jxXYL-0000nr-GY; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 08:18:07 -0700 To: Tools Team Discussion , IETF References: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 17:17:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qxg1tUKcgKT89KbPNcC0ibiM6kxnJeAdE" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, rfc-markdown@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] End of support for xml2rfc on Python 2.x is coming soon X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 15:18:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qxg1tUKcgKT89KbPNcC0ibiM6kxnJeAdE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JDSUCIUdHNDE0lSCX8dRkiAekR5oRA24W"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Tools Team Discussion , IETF Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Message-ID: <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: End of support for xml2rfc on Python 2.x is coming soon References: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> --JDSUCIUdHNDE0lSCX8dRkiAekR5oRA24W Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, It's taken a lot longer than we thought, but I expect the next release of= xml2rfc to be 3.0.0. I currently plan to do the 3.0.0 release shortly af= ter IETF 108. Best regards, Henrik On 2019-10-08 23:23, Russ Housley wrote: > Heads up! >=20 > With the transition to xml2rfc vocabulary version 3, xml2rfc has gained= > the ability to generate PDF output when the necessary system libraries > are installed. However, xml2rfc runs on Python 2.7, but the library > needed for PDF generation ended support for Python 2.7 about 10 > releases ago. This means that the need to end support for xml2rfc on > Python 2.7 is becoming urgent. Another factor is that bugfix support > for Python 2.7.x itself officially stops on 1 January 2020, so we need > to transition away from Python 2.7 soon in any case. >=20 > The latest xml2rfc release is 2.32.0. There will most likely be one or= > two additional xml2rfc releases in the 2.x series, but after that, the > plan is to transition to a 3.x release series, with two major changes: >=20 > (1) xml2rfc will no longer run under Python 2.7; it will require > Python 3.5 or higher. If you cannot install and run Python 3 on > your system, the web service at xml2rfc.ietf.org can be used. >=20 > (2) The default output formatters will change to v3. The v2 formatters= > will still be available by using a --legacy switch. >=20 > Expect the first xml2rfc 3.x series release before the end of the month= =2E >=20 > On behalf of the Tools Team, > Russ >=20 >=20 --JDSUCIUdHNDE0lSCX8dRkiAekR5oRA24W-- --qxg1tUKcgKT89KbPNcC0ibiM6kxnJeAdE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl8VtaYACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxog0g//WBc6wwjIjmCEnK2dnnF20jKGE10ltiKROTjLR0U+mnJa3c7suSNAzbmq /v+mIOowNVTb6ZOGBSNTDHmn+yM9fF1Ezfmug9smLe4AITM88Cz6d4YLPnNBV6z8 aglcElWYgN883ixe2UkqLHApk/XR1FS5U9GPEXcXGGYr98xHKgHkn12xM0Zyz4If WU6BEdD74yQ6/uh1+JKGgY2awVjF2IRnV4khqM9ij9qPpmKLS2hBuPHkfH+31tQa KqiL1pVtr4LItX5OLk59sckuioj/j9WmohrrTvIucDHU7AL2c8Eusf9XGPN+jOH5 +oxbcvLAPlU6wb9N+W85rA08Y3nB2n22kTqwyCQKS4W+RKDRWxsM6N8ZsysI6tVL JTdR7o7WV7shYH4rSPKMCQrZlvl4FcmdGBZmedbQ4/qqnxsy64MNKDweEoAU95mJ 7CLey24zP2mSk8Iw4XJTtJTJkVVrVtwCX28GaCSnZ7htzqjB95WqruBspOvBPxKL VisVLmOKPGLLDtE1m7Nr8qaHtqu222S4QHZiTG2m3v3Z1a4NF/NSMi4+WX6OAH6Z Vmavkq/xmmsL4cZl9A/DmsZJWniex4SM7AKexup2bHUapKdKJ90/GmYyhNlPWGBp Q7Wlnm6g+H3CqSlXEJ2/sWc8g/BzLsoZTyJ3LJeQBC1C57JUEd4= =vZqV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qxg1tUKcgKT89KbPNcC0ibiM6kxnJeAdE-- From nobody Mon Jul 20 10:41:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C4E3A0D8E; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5CLQ8vZA1z6V; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAD663A0D79; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:55815 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jxZms-0002Et-S0; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:41:15 -0700 To: Tools Team Discussion , IETF References: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <4f4adbcb-5b19-19ce-2465-8f49569e139a@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:41:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rJUhVg0f5EQdIifxHDfklsCJIeC4XupMG" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, rfc-markdown@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] End of support for xml2rfc on Python 2.x is coming soon X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 17:41:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rJUhVg0f5EQdIifxHDfklsCJIeC4XupMG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6anOXQ8sElXNCks352w5EbKEJUoRFh1nA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Tools Team Discussion , IETF Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Message-ID: <4f4adbcb-5b19-19ce-2465-8f49569e139a@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: End of support for xml2rfc on Python 2.x is coming soon References: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> --6anOXQ8sElXNCks352w5EbKEJUoRFh1nA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-07-20 17:17, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi, >=20 > It's taken a lot longer than we thought, but I expect the next release = of > xml2rfc to be 3.0.0. I currently plan to do the 3.0.0 release shortly = after > IETF 108. I've been asked to clarify whether the conversion to 3.0.0 will mean the end of support for the v2 (RFC 7749) vocabulary or whether that vocabular= y (DTD/Schema) will continue to be supported. Short: The v2 vocabulary will continue to be supported. The longer answer is that (as indicated below) the default _output_ forma= t will change to use the v3 renderer. xml2rfc will continue to accept v2 i= nput, but by default it will send it through the v2-to-v3 converter, and proces= s the resulting v3 xml through the v3 formatters. If you want to use the v2 formatters directly from the v2 XML, you will n= eed to give the --legacy switch to xml2rfc. Best regards, Henrik > Best regards, >=20 > Henrik >=20 > On 2019-10-08 23:23, Russ Housley wrote: >> Heads up! >>=20 >> With the transition to xml2rfc vocabulary version 3, xml2rfc has gaine= d >> the ability to generate PDF output when the necessary system libraries= >> are installed. However, xml2rfc runs on Python 2.7, but the library >> needed for PDF generation ended support for Python 2.7 about 10 >> releases ago. This means that the need to end support for xml2rfc on >> Python 2.7 is becoming urgent. Another factor is that bugfix support >> for Python 2.7.x itself officially stops on 1 January 2020, so we need= >> to transition away from Python 2.7 soon in any case. >>=20 >> The latest xml2rfc release is 2.32.0. There will most likely be one o= r >> two additional xml2rfc releases in the 2.x series, but after that, the= >> plan is to transition to a 3.x release series, with two major changes:= >>=20 >> (1) xml2rfc will no longer run under Python 2.7; it will require >> Python 3.5 or higher. If you cannot install and run Python 3 on >> your system, the web service at xml2rfc.ietf.org can be used. >>=20 >> (2) The default output formatters will change to v3. The v2 formatter= s >> will still be available by using a --legacy switch. >>=20 >> Expect the first xml2rfc 3.x series release before the end of the mont= h. >>=20 >> On behalf of the Tools Team, >> Russ >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --6anOXQ8sElXNCks352w5EbKEJUoRFh1nA-- --rJUhVg0f5EQdIifxHDfklsCJIeC4XupMG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl8V1zMACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxpi0hAAsznwUheHDsc5qDtPP2IAmSafUZrqggKxn+/goDc+O6NiRlHIajwp+RUv oLaa0eF5ELOAl6nqN/9Zmav3XzM7hpedkBT6taaSH7uWcQueH44OPp5zGmOvIpWs 2QDh54RvRX97WaVsOLuic6JwmIV+B19pRPF3lecZL26IvbLi37v6Nb1vo9ZVl4nJ OkDorWhzV6osvzCE2VSTGVb4OFdl9W2ToCZfTDCagUNQTirMm7kHvxfvMNTOAQkQ W72gmc7qY5/BC5Zix41xbRE/uub4Ruz7MZFID29e8zRIACLVYAT+ipVpinsnK3DN oPoXv8Cjjaev8Wnw4lS++L5KIjhOBsuT+i8ALwnE+0ENTQbCzu054AYinL/mUF56 7Z51pfwjdNfsdRBztCPY3sKC892GUMb2epONLByl2vN22gEgYzjY+a59S2D68dq9 pZWr8y3QxYaCljp8XBBnnl1oTrE927SCbCtsAU1o22aFUFNTnfI3EPMfZE05geX/ ngUbMDs5O+LEqUlSitkHTk3A1nFoBM9Sr3uQPvqBXuPy4Zt5RONHsAoOKTywXJzN hMdIySHBazCodOYIfH0M+zBppZXifrwyPv2a408hhfSBSufgJD1802YGfvHKwe/L GnYHNRnRygYjGKK8h4eUR2vc3IMTfaXMLSXiGnFmk6GNyGnwSzY= =jhHT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rJUhVg0f5EQdIifxHDfklsCJIeC4XupMG-- From nobody Mon Jul 20 12:24:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEB93A0E34; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aRRKPuOQvCl9; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62C6D3A0E41; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.100] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B9WrX4kXDzyXk; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 21:24:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4f4adbcb-5b19-19ce-2465-8f49569e139a@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 21:24:43 +0200 Cc: Tools Team Discussion , IETF , rfc-markdown@ietf.org, XML2RFC Interest Group , XML Developer List X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 616965883.96795-cdae1ba58884b308ca21f79ef4572961 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <082EE9F1-D4AA-487F-BB8C-08CDB59C5A2F@vigilsec.com> <82e10650-8f68-26b2-df22-dff93ce72ee0@levkowetz.com> <4f4adbcb-5b19-19ce-2465-8f49569e139a@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] End of support for xml2rfc on Python 2.x is coming soon X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:24:55 -0000 On 2020-07-20, at 19:41, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >=20 > The longer answer is that (as indicated below) the default _output_ = format > will change to use the v3 renderer. xml2rfc will continue to accept = v2 input, > but by default it will send it through the v2-to-v3 converter, and = process > the resulting v3 xml through the v3 formatters. >=20 > If you want to use the v2 formatters directly from the v2 XML, you = will need > to give the --legacy switch to xml2rfc. Makes a lot of sense to me. The v2-to-v3 converter seems to work very well, and continuing to = support all the XML2RFCv2 files lying around (and still being generated) = is the right approach as well. Thank you, Henrik! Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Jul 20 13:27:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60093A0E9B for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:27:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzpo_UpRaLKx for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 584B93A0E98 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id md7so505189pjb.1 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:27:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u6hR/1OAqNkR9XDxLNEkLayp779cyw4859ypLZszCn8=; b=Je84eA2K9e8cxbRyZEiHIOE9lbExFIIg6FcFLtQDTAFbi3625q+RC0rJHje2AqbVc+ 9adBr7dF+TnPAre5cudUgUZTnPUVlshSxEje6iIquJqLzd5D0F2RbsapSAY/qALAQ3wq 0m5UqCGRAvdrFGzrHUhECe9Mc0NFo2H6GzqUtfKbzikTh8hgaFxlBX3Kqx3/WjbdEamt rWFLPMcov/XwjZ27sxH/a0wQ7YSbrxbYvp5jUN7fT1aHVsK5GoWeVKDIjRxzUgYH5T1y B1ch4mndOQy9qieLhxWSZ4AOb4aE6nPlxoTHEMyEUFh6Tg1qaqc5VC2+2Y9g+gF2aTc0 zpQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=u6hR/1OAqNkR9XDxLNEkLayp779cyw4859ypLZszCn8=; b=InTSj1cYXmobQL2tuBijl/IFTqcxft5S91DK3Z3LuDPKD7N5mcEHQGTnT0SYuV5B08 S1oNSpQ53lVh1lWSZvnXiR25hl/fdIql7J6DGs7RNVTWthWpVZWp/I8ZHfnLaMPgMu6A 7SzX7hZGY0+i9a8YBOwEYaPWplrA0cZt39amTu794m+mrDKH3Yk2DRbXCY305hQnPTbD 0JMIOnrCRm4GTnYFq1IyNqY30j/a+UgXZkWnwqdZr7DJ8E9x0h7AJ3Uru/BWAy3Iiv/o g9JtM43px4XFyuwbtVmoJepf4njV4XEyshHK0DVqVnHB/63DQRkGWfCmatwJHPPSlJSD NP/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XG7ENtPAnnkYHzbHGHB4+zkCmC/DXBGErL7ip5HhQvFdD1qNq vMcHPYUvsrxdebuad+us8Z/WrVUFPjA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxsXIJs/5EhAFfuloHbqPN0aryBFVAlQbnvJsCC5P8bzO4Zd36zMHAQ3frUJSzu/d+Y7OMENg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:784c:: with SMTP id y12mr1043299pjl.16.1595276869405; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.132.13]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id az13sm422647pjb.34.2020.07.20.13.27.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:27:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Richard Barnes , Adam Roach Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss References: <16430.1594998248@localhost> <20200717170813.GJ35840@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <78974377-7315-4bf4-c3c7-34d0d772c55b@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:27:44 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] a meetecho in every pot X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 20:27:52 -0000 I think there's a lot of hand waving in these estimates, in particular no= numbers about the cost of having professional grade cameras and human op= erators on site for traditional meetecho, which absolutely doesn't apply = for on-line-only. So could we just get an actual quote for unattended mee= techo meetings? Well, no, wrong question. Could we ask IETF LLC to study = the question, compare costs, and make a recommendation? And could we first make a list of required and nice-to-have features? Regards Brian On 21-Jul-20 02:54, Richard Barnes wrote: > If that estimate is right, that is a horrifically high cost, especially= for what we're getting here.=C2=A0 All of the standard video conferencin= g platforms offer smoother, more standard UX (including basic things like= active speaker indication and usable tooltips, which I've noticed are la= cking from Meetecho) for a far lower price.=C2=A0 You could have Webex or= Zoom or Meet for around 1% of that cost per meeting. >=20 > Our special snowflake=C2=A0features are not worth it. >=20 > --Richard >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:54 PM Adam Roach > wrote: >=20 > On 7/17/20 12:08, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > would be interresting to learn the costs associated with this. >=20 >=20 > I have no information beyond what's publicly available, but we can = back > a rough estimate out from the IETF budget [1]. Taking the line for > "Remote Participation Support," you can see that we're paying an av= erage > of $63,000 per week-long meeting. An IETF week has roughly 250 meet= ing > hours with remote support. So during a meeting week, it looks like > Meetecho support costs very roughly $250 an hour. I'm sure that the= re > are some setup and tear-down costs amortized over these hours; at t= he > same time, none of the in-person setup (cameras, etc) would be > necessary. Those factors act in opposition to each other, so it's h= ighly > likely that the $250/hour number is at least in the right ballpark.= >=20 > My own observation is that interim meetings tend to be about two ho= urs > long, and many of them have populations of ~10-20 participants. Giv= en > the hem and haw over the registration costs for the upcoming meetin= g, > I'm guessing asking $25 - $50 per person for interim meetings might= > cause some heartburn. >=20 > /a >=20 > ___ > [1] > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_2019_Budget_Public_2018-1= 2-19.pdf >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 23 12:14:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F55C3A0CCB for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBw3ld2OmSu8 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED1453A0CC5 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC38138A2E for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id AaT2CruzH951 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261FD389D9 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C8E9A for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:14:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:14:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I use https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.ics?group,group,group to feed my calendar. This includes a bunch of things that I didn't ask for: - Technology Deep Dive, Code Spring, AD Office Hours. These mostly don't bother me. - NOC Help Desk Hours. This bothers me, because I think that I'm busy every day :-) I wonder if these extra items could be made into some kind of pseudo-group that I could subscribe to? I don't mind if it's in the URL by default. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8Z4aIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWadwgAgPmXEORv9BqC+Ls02ImUAJ2HOLlRs4JAPz6Ju9/uR46nigWmaz5jM2nl rh30P3RkOU5mhwl1JKfkLYnGJeYrWqKiOsVw5OuRisp2Dy8Z841d5KLiOjI8g/7b YAZObQHB9f7uKFTCDDX1Vl4wMsU+NRP3Ne3rylII9aGKXoebFEil+Xxz5CPX1jMz 8bGT/bFRazdvoVAMZ65oOhEn58CVbd2A6/FA/UIIJX/DOMGIBWGj8Mzbk+ORAKXC Tn2+5s8Sb80ZR6Z8m+vF1CIiJe8PBaQF4YNaAipISvdXQMorbzs0xyBLN5sD2nvV uxYbsHcgYqJIzvSxnbEwCfWojO5Yeg== =XGob -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jul 23 12:27:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7D33A0CE9 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10397.1595531682@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mdefwZLk8ovJ6YgOAgha0MuUFPmmxh1TJ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:27:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --mdefwZLk8ovJ6YgOAgha0MuUFPmmxh1TJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="7cu6arNJOybGKQQsPR5P5T4NqeAXW8PKS" --7cu6arNJOybGKQQsPR5P5T4NqeAXW8PKS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 7/23/20 12:14 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > I use https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.ics?group,group,g= roup > to feed my calendar. This includes a bunch of things that I didn't ask= for: > - Technology Deep Dive, Code Spring, AD Office Hours. > These mostly don't bother me. > > - NOC Help Desk Hours. > This bothers me, because I think that I'm busy every day :-) > > I wonder if these extra items could be made into some kind of pseudo-gr= oup > that I could subscribe to? I don't mind if it's in the URL by default.= > On a related note, I haven't been able to find a way to get a .ics file for just a given WG meeting. On the agenda, there's a set of buttons to Download as .ics for each of the areas, but that gets me a lot of meetings that I'm not interested in. Or are there more people (besides the ADs) that are interested in all of the meetings in a given area? -Jim --7cu6arNJOybGKQQsPR5P5T4NqeAXW8PKS-- --mdefwZLk8ovJ6YgOAgha0MuUFPmmxh1TJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEtZ1JCXtnxF27wWmnGyWosBXQn74FAl8Z5JwACgkQGyWosBXQ n74IMQ/+MMg+h1mH01hIZdpdCy3h0GPjUXDymVw75ZOYFOETXWaK83TQ9r7qm7lQ zIM6x97YsDhs7hluQZe4Gs/DUb13mAkncDOhcgRqMau2dc+AEQ3a7C8FvKFsA6/D ThTgR3E1H7EnwzvaraK5++9tBfOpHxxai+5lsm/5qewY9+e38k15lOF5YwsU5vRL ADm4riUsDENt35GUizx6XZ1OFg4YSJW8dP4jjGDt0rSLY3tOIypCBGqgrVYLiOtW s43s0iWTxzXTXss8ff7W7559l6aKTLAR2eZ3cLGQWDjkB1ZcwLQXIOzyquMSw3kF axbOUEPkSxw+nSPmPY+K5ZgLjeBuO1p9qtc17nvFXD0fWRu0R8uR/WoD9ll4SAk/ BxdTR1pYWqpkkI2cNWoGlL/hhkVWAQa1ikDr/uagaZvx5xZmTJTGvSvIGuZ6bXON 76ZVvC+0yBFQ+MzjzABOKFR35S6dzVUAlmtMtttqjCotasIjK8XlhtXP+FZTqez2 uTADwLhf/IGtspHxXQJ1PrZM39X8zqFLa8eAgTfRmIe3m6zOUQ0vLdE8DdloswUm o+zBHPC8XZ5TGTnpM0tJxU9U3St7JWlP/o1ozyg43Y9sxqcMHQ0GsMbl56Ycrqhw /81G/RO0au9eKBTGadw2gE4pf95oDr5gb4Li/5gLelPWyD8ww0w= =6/ss -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mdefwZLk8ovJ6YgOAgha0MuUFPmmxh1TJ-- From nobody Thu Jul 23 12:37:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6BC3A0CEF for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:37:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nuYWi6S1LZwp for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AE113A0C4D for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:36:42 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 32dn7xq692-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:36:42 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:36:42 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:36:42 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Jim Fenton , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things Thread-Index: AQHWYSWMMR9pzYUAbUy5SSCODYeJh6kVz1YA//+/jIA= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:36:41 +0000 Message-ID: <263FEF4A-6EEA-426A-B163-15EBE48B5BB1@akamai.com> References: <10397.1595531682@localhost> <146930bd-1725-b65f-6686-b1c409b4e503@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: <146930bd-1725-b65f-6686-b1c409b4e503@bluepopcorn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.32.182] Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:46:40 -0000 On 7/23/20 2:36 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Or are there more people (besides the ADs) that are interested in all of > the meetings in a given area? > > I would love to see an ICS icon for each individual agenda entry. Come to saturday's sprint and make one! > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Thu Jul 23 14:39:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C7C3A0E1A for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:39:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00_eESf7thdC for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BBCB3A0E1D for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DC738A30; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 0RnzH51bTUy0; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D709838A1A; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342A11CB; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jim Fenton , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <146930bd-1725-b65f-6686-b1c409b4e503@bluepopcorn.net> References: <10397.1595531682@localhost> <146930bd-1725-b65f-6686-b1c409b4e503@bluepopcorn.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:39:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Jim Fenton wrote: >> I use https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.ics?group,group,group > On a related note, I haven't been able to find a way to get a .ics file > for just a given WG meeting. That's sorta related to my complaint about the extra stuff that is there: %curl https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.ics?asdf | grep SUMMARY SUMMARY:Hackathon Kickoff SUMMARY:IEPG Meeting SUMMARY:Newcomers' Quick Connections (Open to Newcomers. https://ietf.gather.town/z6N2SDxHebMdDAfo/IETF-108) SUMMARY:Technology Deep Dive: DNS SUMMARY:Hackathon Closing SUMMARY:TSV AD Office Hours SUMMARY:Code Sprint SUMMARY:NOC Help Desk Hours SUMMARY:NOC Help Desk Hours SUMMARY:IANA Office Hours SUMMARY:RFC Editor Office Hours SUMMARY:NOC Help Desk Hours SUMMARY:Newcomers' Coffee Break SUMMARY:asdf - A Semantic Definition Format for Data and Interactions of Things SUMMARY:IANA Office Hours SUMMARY:RFC Editor Office Hours SUMMARY:NOC Help Desk Hours SUMMARY:IANA Office Hours SUMMARY:RFC Editor Office Hours SUMMARY:IETF Plenary SUMMARY:NOC Help Desk Hours SUMMARY:IANA Office Hours SUMMARY:RFC Editor Office Hours SUMMARY:Newcomers' Coffee Break SUMMARY:NOC Help Desk Hours You are right, that there isn't a way to get them for an area, except by enumerating them all. Most ADs will want just the WGs that they are responsible for, and that's not every group in the area. And that's likely not their entire list of things to do either. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8aA40ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUWNwgAhh7OsOK4x1urmI7SgNp27Nry6SdFduY9kp2HE8aK6uxCKbYN0Moj1c+e xCqsi5N3WsfV5gQrf/m8Umq6Y5d2e0MVLh4WXrTOBCY7lqGjxruiDaJaiMz6wnNk qmo8191q3rV0VQrMYJ3X5VNi2oyzLCzQ0YYQ0BgLc3qiXPRiUuE5kiGGLcPNgPsm AleOymPc2hjEYjZf/pKSLorLImfbb3GD7Ro4dQr44PuIVLefK3dk2tE5WM7QC001 Sm1h+VMuGsbhH/h2GCndA+oGFIrjAjYPgnckFLa+00k/byzWrcy6JcVVkq67BAZs 7hBEMXIRFt7pzzgtotFNITRsH+b7MA== =7uFS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jul 23 23:21:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902853A0CDB for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 23:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Q1_szOE-Ab6 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 23:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A9783A0CA2 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 23:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:0:35:6859:f296:45ac:6441] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:0:35:6859:f296:45ac:6441]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BDC2616F67; Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:21:24 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1595571684; bh=nQUfthwsL1F81UWjxBXtGYJCMPbkGHJl+ujjHGYYwSk=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=eODgUejcIiweA8hn7vhEgErqXTEbKgm/GzTPsMwYztplYgezMu8Zb+K0huexohzgV MWwZa68dGcYfPZSSM5PWuQdjUGEPiev6Ek3G7ospDmrEKmce3nrSGR7kmBivKassPK INjme2NFGgcdd6ng6f37NXSG7AxUa3t7RswZmNpw= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <7B7E9264-47F6-4BEB-905A-97ECA8179ED9@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BA53A72-6E21-4CFD-BEB6-209CCFE25FB4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:21:24 +0300 In-Reply-To: <10397.1595531682@localhost> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <10397.1595531682@localhost> X-MailScanner-ID: 4BDC2616F67.A3FA0 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 06:21:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8BA53A72-6E21-4CFD-BEB6-209CCFE25FB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2020-7-23, at 22:14, Michael Richardson wrote: > - NOC Help Desk Hours. > This bothers me, because I think that I'm busy every day :-) +1 Lars --Apple-Mail=_8BA53A72-6E21-4CFD-BEB6-209CCFE25FB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:17:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 617275057.505712-d93e3be289589a14356dd52d802c071a Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:17:37 +0200 Message-Id: <392E9914-ACE5-4B67-A9E9-03CF5D49C62B@tzi.org> To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] You lose X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:17:47 -0000 You lose

Error: format must be set to one of

ascii pdf epub mobi rtf ps
(found v3ascii)




Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Server at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org Port =
80

 durif


What should I now use in place of =
http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi ?  Or is there a new =
secret parameter for selecting v3 processing?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Fri Jul 24 04:03:02 2020
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Hi Jim,

On 2020-07-23 21:27, Jim Fenton wrote:
> On 7/23/20 12:14 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>> I use https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.ics?group,group,=
group
>> to feed my calendar.  This includes a bunch of things that I didn't as=
k for:
>>   - Technology Deep Dive, Code Spring, AD Office Hours.
>>   These mostly don't bother me.
>>
>>   - NOC Help Desk Hours.
>>   This bothers me, because I think that I'm busy every day :-)
>>
>> I wonder if these extra items could be made into some kind of pseudo-g=
roup
>> that I could subscribe to?  I don't mind if it's in the URL by default=
=2E
>>
> On a related note, I haven't been able to find a way to get a .ics file=

> for just a given WG meeting. On the agenda, there's a set of buttons to=

> Download as .ics for each of the areas, but that gets me a lot of
> meetings that I'm not interested in.

There are links to individual files off of each group's 'Meetings' tab, e=
=2Eg.,

  https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/sacm/meetings/

and also off of each session materials page; e.g.,=20

  https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/sacm

On the latter page there are 2 icons: one top right, a calendar month ico=
n,
which leads to all sessions for the meeting, and one at the right of the
icon line to the right of the session date; that's for that session only.=


I did discuss putting individual session icons on the main agenda page so=
me
time ago (when I put in place the ones on the session materials pages), b=
ut
we were a bit hesitant to do so, since there were already a long line of
icons for each session.

FWIW, after that discussion I did some visual de-cluttering of the main
agenda page by removing the borders around each individual icon in the
per-session icon link line, so maybe it would be more acceptable to add
an .ics link now.


Best regards,

	Henrik



>=20
> Or are there more people (besides the ADs) that are interested in all o=
f
> the meetings in a given area?
>=20
> -Jim
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20


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Hi Carsten,

On 2020-07-24 11:17, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> You lose
> 
Error: format must be set to one of

> 
ascii pdf epub mobi rtf ps
> (found v3ascii)

> 

> 

> 
Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Server at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org Port 8=
0

>  durif
> 
>=20
> What should I now use in place of=20
> http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi ?  Or is there a
> new secret parameter for selecting v3 processing?


I'd be better able to help you with more information about the input you
provided:  Input format, options selected, etc.  I've processed a draft
through the web service after the latest xml2rfc upgrade, and just verifi=
ed
with another.

Disclaimer: I'm not a mind reader.


	Henrik


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From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Henrik Levkowetz , Jim Fenton , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] ics feeds -- default things
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] You lose
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On 2020-07-24, at 13:08, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:
>=20
> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> On 2020-07-24 11:17, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> You lose
>> 
Error: format must be set to one of

>> 
ascii pdf epub mobi rtf ps
>> (found v3ascii)

>> 

>> 

>> 
Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Server at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org Port =
80

>> durif
>> 
>>=20
>> What should I now use in place of=20
>> http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi ?  Or is there a
>> new secret parameter for selecting v3 processing?
>=20

Hi Henrik,

(Since I do have a workaround, please don=E2=80=99t read now if you are =
busy preparing for 108.)

> I'd be better able to help you with more information about the input =
you
> provided:  Input format, options selected, etc. =20

Unfortunately, this code has worked so well for a while that I never put =
in debug code.

Let me start by explaining how I even got to test this.
I (unknown to me) messed up my python3 installation, which makes xml2rfc =
fail.
kdrfc doesn=E2=80=99t hesitate to use the web service when that happens, =
and it only tells you about that if you use verbose mode (which I did =
not do as I wasn=E2=80=99t expecting a problem).
So I have no idea when the v3 support broke (or even if it ever worked).

Right now, the code uses:
  url =3D URI('http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi=E2=80=99)=


In the copy of that that is in the xml2rfc repo, I don=E2=80=99t find =
any v3 support.

If I change this to:
  url =3D URI('http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc-dev.cgi=E2=80=
=99)

it works again, as that code has v3 support.

Is this the interface I should be using now, or is there a more stable =
one?
(I=E2=80=99m switching to it for 1.3.10, for now.)

> I've processed a draft
> through the web service

Yes.  I think my main confusion is what =E2=80=9Cthe web service=E2=80=9D =
is at any specific point in time (I came from =
https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/, which seems to point to xml2rfc.cgi).

> after the latest xml2rfc upgrade, and just verified
> with another.
>=20
> Disclaimer: I'm not a mind reader.

I put in some diagnostic code to reduce the amount of mind reading =
needed=E2=80=A6

*** HTTP response has unexpected content_type text/html with status 200, =
["url/form: ", #, [["modeAsFormat", =
"txt/v3ascii"], ["type", "binary"], ["input", =
#, {:filename=3D>"input.xml", =
:content_type=3D>"text/plain"}]]]
You lose

Error: format must be set to one of


ascii pdf epub mobi rtf ps
(found v3ascii)






Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Server at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org Port =
80

 durif


Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



From nobody Sat Jul 25 13:48:36 2020
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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
To: Carsten Bormann 
Cc: Tools Team Discussion 
Message-ID: <66860fca-ffa2-45eb-6d97-f3a9189e4b9f@levkowetz.com>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] You lose
References: <392E9914-ACE5-4B67-A9E9-03CF5D49C62B@tzi.org>
 <9192679a-11ff-f7e6-0e61-39d76fe50bf8@levkowetz.com>
 <9351244A-68F9-43AE-AD46-9C3F12790079@tzi.org>
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Hi Carsten,

Beginning with an understanding gleaned from the content below:  The
essential missing piece of information, which I now got, was that this
was in the context not of a xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org form submission, but
direct invocation of the CGI script from kdrfc.  That piece of informatio=
n
makes it much easier to dig into this.

More inline.

On 2020-07-25 20:39, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-07-24, at 13:08, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:=

>>=20
>> Hi Carsten,
>>=20
>> On 2020-07-24 11:17, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> You lose
>>> 
Error: format must be set to one of

>>> 
ascii pdf epub mobi rtf ps
>>> (found v3ascii)

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 
Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Server at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org Port=
 80

>>> durif
>>> 
>>>=20
>>> What should I now use in place of=20
>>> http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi ?  Or is there a
>>> new secret parameter for selecting v3 processing?
>>=20
>=20
> Hi Henrik,
>=20
> (Since I do have a workaround, please don=E2=80=99t read now if you are=
 busy
> preparing for 108.)
>=20
>> I'd be better able to help you with more information about the
>> input you provided: Input format, options selected, etc. =20
>=20
> Unfortunately, this code has worked so well for a while that I never
> put in debug code.
>=20
> Let me start by explaining how I even got to test this. I (unknown
> to me) messed up my python3 installation, which makes xml2rfc fail.=20
> kdrfc doesn=E2=80=99t hesitate to use the web service when that happens=
, and
> it only tells you about that if you use verbose mode (which I did not
> do as I wasn=E2=80=99t expecting a problem). So I have no idea when the=
 v3
> support broke (or even if it ever worked).
>=20
> Right now, the code uses:
>   url =3D URI('http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi=E2=80=99=
)
>=20
> In the copy of that that is in the xml2rfc repo, I don=E2=80=99t find a=
ny v3 support.
>=20
> If I change this to:
>   url =3D URI('http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc-dev.cgi=E2=
=80=99)
>=20
> it works again, as that code has v3 support.
>=20
> Is this the interface I should be using now, or is there a more stable =
one?
> (I=E2=80=99m switching to it for 1.3.10, for now.)

Nothing has intentionally been changed.  I don't know if Tony Hansen, who=
's
the primary maintainer of the xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org form processing, has=

made changes behind the scenes, but if I check the timestamp of all the
=2Ecgi files, they are all dated Nov 19, 2019; so there is no obvious cha=
nge
there either.

FWIW, using xml2rfc-dev.cgi seems like a decent workaround.

>> I've processed a draft through the web service
>=20
> Yes. I think my main confusion is what =E2=80=9Cthe web service=E2=80=9D=
 is at any
> specific point in time (I came from https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/,
> which seems to point to xml2rfc.cgi).

Ack; given the understanding I now have of how you came to run into the
issue at hand, I understand the indeterminacy here.

>> after the latest xml2rfc upgrade, and just verified with another.
>>=20
>> Disclaimer: I'm not a mind reader.
>=20
> I put in some diagnostic code to reduce the amount of mind reading need=
ed=E2=80=A6
>=20
> *** HTTP response has unexpected content_type text/html with status
> 200, ["url/form: ", # http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi>, [["modeAsFormat",
> "txt/v3ascii"], ["type", "binary"], ["input",
> #, {:filename=3D>"input.xml",
> :content_type=3D>"text/plain"}]]] You
> lose 
 class=3D'error'>Error: format must be set to one of
 
 class=3D'error'>ascii pdf epub mobi rtf ps (found v3ascii)
=20
> 
 
 
Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Server at
> xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org Port 80
  xx-small'>durif 

And checking the various .cgi processing scripts, I see that indeed, only=

xml2rfc-dev.cgi has support for v3ascii.


Best regards,

	Henrik


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From nobody Sat Jul 25 14:01:11 2020
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On 2020-07-25, at 22:48, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:
>=20
> FWIW, using xml2rfc-dev.cgi seems like a decent workaround.

Thank you for confirming this so quickly!

(What helped me find the solution was to simply search my laptop for =
xml2rfc.cgi, finding it in the xml2rfc source working copy, and finding =
the -dev right beside it.  I have to remind myself to use the source, =
Luke, even if I don=E2=80=99t know I have it=E2=80=A6)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Mon Jul 27 04:58:49 2020
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho feedback: participant list
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A minor thing that I want to capture:

The participant list might should not include people icons - consider 
collapsing it so that more fits on the screen.

Consider a different sort (or changing sorts) so that we don't 
accidentally give advantage (name recognition if nothing else) to people 
who's names start with A.

RjS


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Robert,

> On Jul 27, 2020, at 4:58 AM, Robert Sparks  =
wrote:
>=20
> A minor thing that I want to capture:
>=20
> The participant list might should not include people icons - consider =
collapsing it so that more fits on the screen.

Also would nice to be able to adjust the width of each internal window.

>=20
> Consider a different sort (or changing sorts) so that we don't =
accidentally give advantage (name recognition if nothing else) to people =
who's names start with A.

Also seem to put names with ideograms at the end of the list.

Bob



>=20
> RjS
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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From: Bob Hinden 
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:39:17 -0700
Cc: Bob Hinden , Greg Wood 
To: Tools Team Discussion 
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I am in the Spring session.

When a discussion starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is =
speaking.  This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the =
mic is open.

Bob





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I am in the Spring session.

When a discussion =
starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is speaking. =
 This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the mic is =
open.

Bob




=

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From nobody Mon Jul 27 05:45:04 2020
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:44:39 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Bob Hinden 
Cc: Tools Team Discussion , Greg Wood 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho Feedback
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Hi Bob,
my apologies for not following the MIC protocol, not announcing myself
before speaking. Will do better next time.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 5:39 AM Bob Hinden  wrote:

> I am in the Spring session.
>
> When a discussion starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is sp=
eaking.
> This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the mic is open.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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Hi Bob,
my apologies for not following the MIC protoco=
l, not announcing myself before speaking. Will do better next time.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 5:39=
 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail=
.com> wrote:
I am in the Spring session.

When a discussion starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is spe=
aking.=C2=A0 This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the mi=
c is open.

Bob


=



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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho Feedback
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Hi,

Apparently the time limits are very strict.  The Spring session stopped =
exactly on time, they were talking and then it stoped and said:

   this session is over
   see you soon on Meetecho!

Shouldn=E2=80=99t there be some extra time and/or a warning?

Bob


> On Jul 27, 2020, at 5:39 AM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
>=20
> I am in the Spring session.
>=20
> When a discussion starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is =
speaking.  This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the =
mic is open.
>=20
> Bob
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 


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On 2020-07-27, at 14:39, Bob Hinden  wrote:
>=20
> When a discussion starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is =
speaking.  This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the =
mic is open.

As I said before, we need a speaker indicator.

Look at BigBlueButton for how to do this properly (it is not easy to get =
this right!).  (Actually, look at vat ca. 1992 :-).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Bob Hinden 
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:50:25 -0700
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Cc: Bob Hinden , Tools Team Discussion , Greg Wood 
To: Greg Mirsky 
References:  
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho Feedback
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Greg,

My comment wasn=E2=80=99t directed at you, once there is back and forth =
discussion, without some feedback, hard to tell who is speaking.

Bob


> On Jul 27, 2020, at 5:44 AM, Greg Mirsky  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Bob,
> my apologies for not following the MIC protocol, not announcing myself =
before speaking. Will do better next time.
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 5:39 AM Bob Hinden  =
wrote:
> I am in the Spring session.
>=20
> When a discussion starts, it=E2=80=99s impossible to figure out who is =
speaking.  This needs some sort of realtime indication, other than the =
mic is open.
>=20
> Bob
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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From nobody Mon Jul 27 08:19:54 2020
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From: Eric Rescorla 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Comments on humming tool
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--0000000000007dc5ff05ab6dda97
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Hi folks,

I've now seen several different hums and I think it's revealing some
fairly serious usability issues in the hum tool. Specifically, it's
hard for both the chairs and users to understand what is being hummed
on and what is happening at any particular time.

I would propose two major changes:

1. Have the question and the alternatives be written down by the
   chairs and presented to people at the time of the hum

2. Run all the alternatives concurrently not serially. I recognize
   that this is different from a live hum, but that is an artifact
   of a technological difference in that audible hums interfere
   with each other where the tool does not. This will both be
   faster and avoid ambiguity about what is currently being
   hummed for.

I believe that this would make things much easier and should not
be too hard.

-Ekr

--0000000000007dc5ff05ab6dda97
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi folks,

I've now seen several different hums =
and I think it's revealing some
fairly serious usability issues in t=
he hum tool. Specifically, it's
hard for both the chairs and users t=
o understand what is being hummed
on and what is happening at any partic=
ular time.

I would propose two major changes:

1. Have the que=
stion and the alternatives be written down by the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0chairs an=
d presented to people at the time of the hum

2. Run all the alternat=
ives concurrently not serially. I recognize
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that this is di=
fferent from a live hum, but that is an artifact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a techn=
ological difference in that audible hums interfere
=C2=A0 =C2=A0with eac=
h other where the tool does not. This will both be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0faster a=
nd avoid ambiguity about what is currently being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0hummed for=
.

I believe that this would make things much easier and should notbe too hard.

-Ekr


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 


--0000000000007dc5ff05ab6dda97--


From nobody Mon Jul 27 08:26:54 2020
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:26:43 +0000
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From: Chris Morrow 
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Proper place for meetecho suggestions/bug-reports/etc
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It seems odd that tools-discuss is the correct place for discussions
about meetecho ... is it? or is there a correct place to have this
disucssion? :)

I ask because I have a few 'problems' and a few 'suggestions' that
i'd like to get back ot the meetecho folk for improvement, either
in my process/tools OR in the overall system :)

-chris


From nobody Mon Jul 27 08:38:43 2020
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From: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proper place for meetecho suggestions/bug-reports/etc
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Right now, this is the right place.

On 7/27/20 10:26 AM, Chris Morrow wrote:
> It seems odd that tools-discuss is the correct place for discussions
> about meetecho ... is it? or is there a correct place to have this
> disucssion? :)
>
> I ask because I have a few 'problems' and a few 'suggestions' that
> i'd like to get back ot the meetecho folk for improvement, either
> in my process/tools OR in the overall system :)
>
> -chris
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:03:48 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Comments on humming tool
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As I was unable to slides (for reasons as yet undiagnosed), it would be better that - if chairs do decide to hold a vote - the tool presented those options all at once in a ballot form, maybe with some standard options:

[ ] option 1 with words typed by chairs
[ ] option 2 with words typed by chairs
[ ] I don't understand the question
[ ] do not vote

Allow people time to read and respond and allow them to change their position.  Also, allow the chairs to cancel a poll (which invalidates any responses).

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020, at 01:19, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I've now seen several different hums and I think it's revealing some
> fairly serious usability issues in the hum tool. Specifically, it's
> hard for both the chairs and users to understand what is being hummed
> on and what is happening at any particular time.
> 
> I would propose two major changes:
> 
> 1. Have the question and the alternatives be written down by the
>    chairs and presented to people at the time of the hum
> 
> 2. Run all the alternatives concurrently not serially. I recognize
>    that this is different from a live hum, but that is an artifact
>    of a technological difference in that audible hums interfere
>    with each other where the tool does not. This will both be
>    faster and avoid ambiguity about what is currently being
>    hummed for..
> 
> I believe that this would make things much easier and should not
> be too hard.
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
>                         
> ___________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:04:43 +0000
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From: Chris Morrow 
To: Robert Sparks 
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On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:38:36 +0000,
Robert Sparks  wrote:
> 
> Right now, this is the right place.
> 

okeydokey:

  1) you should be able to re-select audio/video input/output after
  joining a stream

  2) in cases where there are more than 1 USB audio device the
  software should ensure that input/output are from the same device by
  default

  3) you should be able to select the input/output audio distinctly:
     "I want the output to come from speakers"
     "I want the input from my fancy usb-mic"

this is important (to me) so I don't have on 2 pairs of headphones :)

thanks!
-chris

> On 7/27/20 10:26 AM, Chris Morrow wrote:
> > It seems odd that tools-discuss is the correct place for discussions
> > about meetecho ... is it? or is there a correct place to have this
> > disucssion? :)
> > 
> > I ask because I have a few 'problems' and a few 'suggestions' that
> > i'd like to get back ot the meetecho folk for improvement, either
> > in my process/tools OR in the overall system :)
> > 
> > -chris
> > 
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list
> > Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> > 
> > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> > 
> > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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From: Jordi Palet =?UTF-8?B?TWFydMOtbmV6?= 
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When you refresh the screen (in my case was moving my laptop and connecting=
 an external monitor, mic and speaker, a "Media preflight" window ask for t=
he "Audio" device, while it is actually asking for the mic device. I think =
"mic" instead of audio should be used, to avoid confusion.

Also, it is missing a "Speaker" selection. If you have several speakers, yo=
u need to be able to choose one.=EF=BB=BF

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
=20



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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:43:30 +0000
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From: Chris Morrow 
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On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:26:26 +0000,
Jordi Palet Mart=C3=ADnez  wrote:
>=20
> When you refresh the screen (in my case was moving my laptop and
> connecting an external monitor, mic and speaker, a "Media preflight"
> window ask for the "Audio" device, while it is actually asking for
> the mic device. I think "mic" instead of audio should be used, to
> avoid confusion.
>=20
> Also, it is missing a "Speaker" selection. If you have several
> speakers, you need to be able to choose one.=EF=BB=BF

This is a version of my feedback as well:

  "Please clearly delineate (and permit choosing) between the input
  and output audio devices"

>=20
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> **********************************************
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>=20
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
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> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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# Annoyances, part N+1

When you have a private chat, and the peer leaves (often people announce =
just that in a private chat), the dismiss button gets grayed out with =
the rest of the chat window, so you can=E2=80=99t get rid of it.  Less =
space for videos (which is already too small).

The Chiron (title) under the screen sharing (which is good!) actually =
obscures part of the slides.  That is supposed to go away, but in some =
cases just doesn=E2=80=99t.

The queueing system makes the current speaker appear at the end of the =
list, at least most of the time. The new speaker jumps from the top of =
the queue to the end of the =E2=80=9Csending media=E2=80=9D list.  That =
requires cognitive effort to follow.  (See also speaker indication =
below.)

"Open in new tab" on the =E2=80=9Cshow note taking tool=E2=80=9D icon =
creates another meetecho window that tries to log me in.  Why can=E2=80=99=
t it take me to codimd?

Lots of chairs=E2=80=99 clicks to the queue/media list go to the wrong =
field as that expands and shrinks all the time while people are =
clicking.  Again, wrong order=E2=80=A6

Make sure that the defaults are set for each form, i.e. press enter for =
=E2=80=9CJoin using datatracker account=E2=80=9D (and why doesn=E2=80=99t =
it just try???), yes I want my hum to take, ...

Besides a hum tool, a polling tool (with a non-anonymous option) would =
speed up some things (=E2=80=9Cwho is willing to review=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6)=
.  Again, see BBB how to do this right.
Right now, people fake audio requests to get in the =E2=80=9CYES=E2=80=9D =
list, ouch.

# Things that have been said before:

Video or screen sharing needs to imply audio, unless explicitly switched =
off.
How about a MUTE BUTTON, which also can be used to retain speaker rights =
while muting for hearing a question?

The media request icons are WAY TOO SMALL, with the important part white =
on light blue.

The hum tool icon is not a musical note, which it should be; =E2=80=9CHUM=E2=
=80=9D also would work.

Absolutely essential: Speaker indication. =20
Who is speaking?  I=E2=80=99ve heard chairs ask that question because =
they couldn=E2=80=99t find out either.
(Look at 1992=E2=80=99s vat tool or BigBlueButton to get this right, =
it=E2=80=99s NOT trivial.)


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From: Ted Lemon 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho feedback
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Another usability issue with Meetecho is that when you go to talk, it =
_then_ asks for permission to use the microphone, but also immediately =
removes you from the queue because permission wasn=E2=80=99t already =
granted. So you have to give permission to use the mic and then re-enter =
the queue. This is what happens on Safari, anyway.  I noticed several =
people having issues with this, and realized why when it happened to me.

A further issue is that for some reason the presenter screen seems to be =
going through some kind of analog connection, which is noisy, and that =
noise then has to be encoded; as a result, the slides for 6man this =
morning were streaming at an impressive 500kbps.

> On Jul 28, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Chris Morrow  =
wrote:
>=20
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:26:26 +0000,
> Jordi Palet Mart=C3=ADnez =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> When you refresh the screen (in my case was moving my laptop and
>> connecting an external monitor, mic and speaker, a "Media preflight"
>> window ask for the "Audio" device, while it is actually asking for
>> the mic device. I think "mic" instead of audio should be used, to
>> avoid confusion.
>>=20
>> Also, it is missing a "Speaker" selection. If you have several
>> speakers, you need to be able to choose one.=EF=BB=BF
>=20
> This is a version of my feedback as well:
>=20
>  "Please clearly delineate (and permit choosing) between the input
>  and output audio devices"
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>> @jordipalet
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com
>> The IPv6 Company
>>=20
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use =
of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized =
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this =
information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly =
prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the =
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or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including =
attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal =
offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this =
communication and delete it.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>=20
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
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>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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On 2020-07-28, at 16:20, Ted Lemon  wrote:
>=20
> Safari

Oh.  This should have been made much clearer ahead of time.
When you need WebRTC:

Do not use (desktop) Safari (MUST NOT).
Use Firefox in a pinch (SHOULD NOT), getting better recently.
Do use chromium browsers (SHOULD), e.g. Chrome or Brave.

(Mobile Safari seems to be better, by the way, but I don=E2=80=99t have =
a lot of experience with that.)

Hard-earned experience from a semester turned online.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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It=E2=80=99s possible but unlikely that every other person who had the same i=
ssue was using Safari. Aside from this one issue, I had no trouble. The anal=
og video issue is a Meetecho issue, not a Safari issue.=20

> On Jul 28, 2020, at 10:26, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-07-28, at 16:20, Ted Lemon  wrote:
>>=20
>> Safari
>=20
> Oh.  This should have been made much clearer ahead of time.
> When you need WebRTC:
>=20
> Do not use (desktop) Safari (MUST NOT).
> Use Firefox in a pinch (SHOULD NOT), getting better recently.
> Do use chromium browsers (SHOULD), e.g. Chrome or Brave.
>=20
> (Mobile Safari seems to be better, by the way, but I don=E2=80=99t have a l=
ot of experience with that.)
>=20
> Hard-earned experience from a semester turned online.
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20


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Carsten Bormann  wrote:
    > Besides a hum tool, a polling tool (with a non-anonymous option) would
    > speed up some things (=E2=80=9Cwho is willing to review=E2=80=9D=E2=
=80=A6).  Again, see BBB how
    > to do this right.

Also, for this query, it would be nice if it stayed on the screen somewhere
until the chairs dismiss it.

    > Right now, people fake audio requests to get in the =E2=80=9CYES=E2=
=80=9D list, ouch.

:-)

    > Video or screen sharing needs to imply audio, unless explicitly
    > switched off.

There are definitely some uses when this does not work.
Having a panel of people with video on, but locally muted makes sense.
So really, I agree with you: it should imply audio PERMISSION, but then let
me locally mute.

    > How about a MUTE BUTTON, which also can be used to retain speaker
    > rights while muting for hearing a question?

Agreed.

    > The media request icons are WAY TOO SMALL, with the important part wh=
ite on light blue.
    > The hum tool icon is not a musical note, which it should be; =E2=80=
=9CHUM=E2=80=9D also would work.

My experience is that 30s is just too short for most people.

    > Absolutely essential: Speaker indication.

Yes. Three things:
1) who is speaking for everyone else to see.
2) I am speaking feedback (already there)
3) the network is receiving me (needed)

I would suggest that the mixer calculate the MOS (ITU-T PESQ P.862 ) on the
data it receives, and feed this back to the speaker.  Anything less than 1
means that the uplink is broken.
I would further suggest that every receiver calculate the MOS on received
data, and then send that to the mixer.

a) anyone whose receive MOS is two sigmas out from the average would get
   signaled that they have downlink issues.
b) the average of all speakers would be reported to everyone.

This won't help us solve the problems that various people have, but would at
least help people realize if it is their rig, or the sender's rig, or
something else.

    > Who is speaking?  I=E2=80=99ve heard chairs ask that question because=
 they couldn=E2=80=99t find out either.
    > (Look at 1992=E2=80=99s vat tool or BigBlueButton to get this right, =
it=E2=80=99s NOT trivial.)

Yes.  Maybe you can share some screen shots.

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

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From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion 
Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] A couple meetecho annoyances
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] A couple meetecho annoyances
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To: Ted Lemon , Chris Morrow 
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From: Meetecho IETF support 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho feedback
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Hi Ted,

Il 28/07/20 16:20, Ted Lemon ha scritto:
> Another usability issue with Meetecho is that when you go to talk, it _then_ asks for permission to use the microphone, but also immediately removes you from the queue because permission wasn’t already granted. So you have to give permission to use the mic and then re-enter the queue. This is what happens on Safari, anyway.  I noticed several people having issues with this, and realized why when it happened to me.

this is not the expected behavior and doesn't happen with any of the 
browsers we tested (which include Safari). At the very moment the 
application tries to access your microphone you are prompted to grant 
permission. This permission cannot be "cached" in Safari like in other 
browsers where you can check "don't ask me again". Anyway, this does 
remove you from the queue only because you're moved into the "sending 
media" section, as you've been allowed to speak. So no need at all to 
re-enter the queue, which in fact does nothing when you're already 
sending audio other than displaying a warning message "audio already 
requested".

> A further issue is that for some reason the presenter screen seems to be going through some kind of analog connection, which is noisy, and that noise then has to be encoded; as a result, the slides for 6man this morning were streaming at an impressive 500kbps.

I'm not sure I understand this. What you mean by going through an analog 
connection? There's no such think in Meetecho, the shared screen is just 
a WebRTC video feed as provided by the browser via the getDisplayMedia 
API call. 500k is indeed the upper bound we enforce to avoid overloading 
clients' networks, but it's up to the browser (and the software encoder 
it uses) to pick the bandwidth it thinks is needed to properly encode 
the content of the screen.

Alessandro

>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Chris Morrow  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:26:26 +0000,
>> Jordi Palet Martínez  wrote:
>>>
>>> When you refresh the screen (in my case was moving my laptop and
>>> connecting an external monitor, mic and speaker, a "Media preflight"
>>> window ask for the "Audio" device, while it is actually asking for
>>> the mic device. I think "mic" instead of audio should be used, to
>>> avoid confusion.
>>>
>>> Also, it is missing a "Speaker" selection. If you have several
>>> speakers, you need to be able to choose one.
>>
>> This is a version of my feedback as well:
>>
>>   "Please clearly delineate (and permit choosing) between the input
>>   and output audio devices"
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jordi
>>> @jordipalet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************
>>> IPv4 is over
>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>> http://www.theipv6company.com
>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>
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> 
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Hi Carsten,

Il 28/07/20 15:54, Carsten Bormann ha scritto:
> # Annoyances, part N+1
> 
> When you have a private chat, and the peer leaves (often people announce just that in a private chat), the dismiss button gets grayed out with the rest of the chat window, so you can’t get rid of it.  Less space for videos (which is already too small).

this has been fixed already. Maybe your browser was caching the 
javascript files? You may want to try a hard refresh if this happens again.

> The Chiron (title) under the screen sharing (which is good!) actually obscures part of the slides.  That is supposed to go away, but in some cases just doesn’t.

This is exactly the reason why tooltips don't appear on top of the 
elements but in a well-defined position...

> The queueing system makes the current speaker appear at the end of the list, at least most of the time. The new speaker jumps from the top of the queue to the end of the “sending media” list.  That requires cognitive effort to follow.  (See also speaker indication below.)

Noted. I do agree that moving people from top of the queue to top of the 
sending media list is better.

> "Open in new tab" on the “show note taking tool” icon creates another meetecho window that tries to log me in.  Why can’t it take me to codimd?

Because that's an iframe.

> Lots of chairs’ clicks to the queue/media list go to the wrong field as that expands and shrinks all the time while people are clicking.  Again, wrong order…

Noted.

> Make sure that the defaults are set for each form, i.e. press enter for “Join using datatracker account” (and why doesn’t it just try???), yes I want my hum to take, ...

Noted.

> Besides a hum tool, a polling tool (with a non-anonymous option) would speed up some things (“who is willing to review”…).  Again, see BBB how to do this right.
> Right now, people fake audio requests to get in the “YES” list, ouch.

Noted, but it's not our call which new tools (if any) will be 
implemented in future versions.

> # Things that have been said before:
> 
> Video or screen sharing needs to imply audio, unless explicitly switched off.
> How about a MUTE BUTTON, which also can be used to retain speaker rights while muting for hearing a question?

Yet another mic button to mute locally? I've heard A LOT of complains 
about having too many buttons already...

> The media request icons are WAY TOO SMALL, with the important part white on light blue.

Noted.

> The hum tool icon is not a musical note, which it should be; “HUM” also would work.

Noted.

> Absolutely essential: Speaker indication.
> Who is speaking?  I’ve heard chairs ask that question because they couldn’t find out either.
> (Look at 1992’s vat tool or BigBlueButton to get this right, it’s NOT trivial.)

On our todo list already.

Cheers,
Alessandro

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From: Meetecho IETF support 
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Hi Chris, Jordi

Il 28/07/20 15:43, Chris Morrow ha scritto:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:26:26 +0000,
> Jordi Palet Martínez  wrote:
>>
>> When you refresh the screen (in my case was moving my laptop and
>> connecting an external monitor, mic and speaker, a "Media preflight"
>> window ask for the "Audio" device, while it is actually asking for
>> the mic device. I think "mic" instead of audio should be used, to
>> avoid confusion.
>>
>> Also, it is missing a "Speaker" selection. If you have several
>> speakers, you need to be able to choose one.
> 
> This is a version of my feedback as well:
> 
>    "Please clearly delineate (and permit choosing) between the input
>    and output audio devices"

this has been added to our todo list already. Thanks for your feedback.

Alessandro

>>
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>> @jordipalet
>>   
>>
>>
>>
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--=-=-=
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I just enabled a subscription in the Thunderbird instance I use only for IETF
imap to ietf@ietf.org.  So it wants to read all 134292 message headers.
I'm at 8601 after a few minutes :-)

While I only have to do this once, I wonder if there is any magic that might
make this less of a hit in general.  I feel that I am probably devoting some
chunk of disk space to this database.  I certainly wonder if NNRP wouldn't be
smarter..  . o O ( slrn )

I can sorta start searching for the thread I want while I wait.
(No mailarchive won't really help)

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect   [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [





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From nobody Tue Jul 28 13:56:10 2020
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Hi Alessandro,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Let me add three additional comments...

> On 2020-07-28, at 20:52, Meetecho IETF support  =
wrote:
>=20
>> "Open in new tab" on the =E2=80=9Cshow note taking tool=E2=80=9D icon =
creates another meetecho window that tries to log me in.  Why can=E2=80=99=
t it take me to codimd?
>=20
> Because that's an iframe.

That=E2=80=99s equivalent to =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=99s how we implemented =
it=E2=80=9D.

This should be a native a/href to codimd (on _blank), with Javascript =
overlaid that takes you to the iframe.  So if I use the browser right =
click, I get the native href, and if I click normally, I get the =
JavaScript effect.

>> Lots of chairs=E2=80=99 clicks to the queue/media list go to the =
wrong field as that expands and shrinks all the time while people are =
clicking. Again, wrong order=E2=80=A6
>=20
> Noted.

Maybe keeping some =E2=80=9Chistory=E2=80=9D (instead of being deleted, =
field loses its color and slides closed) would help.
(That could also help with making the speaker indication sticky for a =
few seconds.)

>> # Things that have been said before:
>> Video or screen sharing needs to imply audio, unless explicitly =
switched off.
>> How about a MUTE BUTTON, which also can be used to retain speaker =
rights while muting for hearing a question?
>=20
> Yet another mic button to mute locally? I've heard A LOT of complains =
about having too many buttons already=E2=80=A6

I know, but there are just too many different special requirements, and =
a single-click button for joining the queue with the right requests set =
is valuable.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



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Il 28/07/20 22:56, Carsten Bormann ha scritto:
> Hi Alessandro,
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply.
> 
> Let me add three additional comments...
> 
>> On 2020-07-28, at 20:52, Meetecho IETF support  wrote:
>>
>>> "Open in new tab" on the “show note taking tool” icon creates another meetecho window that tries to log me in.  Why can’t it take me to codimd?
>>
>> Because that's an iframe.
> 
> That’s equivalent to “that’s how we implemented it”.

Indeed, that's how it's currently implemented.

> This should be a native a/href to codimd (on _blank), with Javascript overlaid that takes you to the iframe.  So if I use the browser right click, I get the native href, and if I click normally, I get the JavaScript effect.

This is a very good suggestion and should also be easy enough to 
implement in the next version.

>>> Lots of chairs’ clicks to the queue/media list go to the wrong field as that expands and shrinks all the time while people are clicking. Again, wrong order…
>>
>> Noted.
> 
> Maybe keeping some “history” (instead of being deleted, field loses its color and slides closed) would help.
> (That could also help with making the speaker indication sticky for a few seconds.)

The plan is to slowly fade them out rather then moving abruptly from 
queue to sending media.

>>> # Things that have been said before:
>>> Video or screen sharing needs to imply audio, unless explicitly switched off.
>>> How about a MUTE BUTTON, which also can be used to retain speaker rights while muting for hearing a question?
>>
>> Yet another mic button to mute locally? I've heard A LOT of complains about having too many buttons already…
> 
> I know, but there are just too many different special requirements, and a single-click button for joining the queue with the right requests set is valuable.
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 
> 

-- 
Meetecho s.r.l.
www.meetecho.com


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To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
From: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Be mindful of image size when including screenshots
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All -

Please be mindful of everyone's bandwidth when posting messages with 
screenshots. Work to make your images be only what's needed to convey 
the message.

RjS


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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Be mindful of image size when including screenshots
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On 2020-07-29, at 00:01, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>=20
> Please be mindful of everyone's bandwidth when posting messages with =
screenshots. Work to make your images be only what's needed to convey =
the message.

One nice feature of groups.io is that a subscriber can configure a =
maximum attachment size, beyond which the attachment is replaced by a =
link to a web resource.  (I have no idea whether that is a ready feature =
of mailman.)

(What was the context of your PSA?)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Overloading the title of a session with a URL should get filtered on =
input (IMO).

Tom



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Overloading the title of a session with a URL should get filtered on input (IMO).

Tom



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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Session titles
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These were entered before that kind of session had support for showing 
the remote participation link in the right place. It was the only way 
(at the time) to get the information out. That's been addressed already.

RjS

On 7/28/20 8:41 PM, Tom Pusateri wrote:
> Overloading the title of a session with a URL should get filtered on 
> input (IMO).
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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--------------16EA1B173B935786DF2359DC
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--------------C324B87CEB26143CB22F1067
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These were entered before that kind of session had support for
      showing the remote participation link in the right place. It was
      the only way (at the time) to get the information out. That's been
      addressed already.

    

    
RjS

    

    
On 7/28/20 8:41 PM, Tom Pusateri wrote:

    

    

      
      
Overloading the title of a session with a URL should
        get filtered on input (IMO).

        

        Tom

      


      

      

      

      

      
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--------------16EA1B173B935786DF2359DC--


From nobody Wed Jul 29 07:35:51 2020
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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 10:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Samuel Weiler 
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bad chairs addrs on tools pages
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Poking on this again...

If the code that generates these pages is accessible (e.g. in Github), 
feel free to send a pointer to it, and I'll figure out where to patch 
it...


On Thu, 11 Jun 2020, Samuel Weiler wrote:

> The WG tools pages (e.g. https://tools.ietf.org/wg/capport/)
> have links to chairs addrs at tools.ietf.org (e.g. 
> capport-chairs@tools.ietf.org), which then bounce.
>
> Perhaps replace with @ietf.org?
>
> -- Sam


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From: Jeffrey Yasskin 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Clickable links in slides
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Often speakers have included links in their slides. These are clickable if
you've opened the PDF in parallel, but not through the main Meetecho
interface, likely because Meetecho is just showing a screencast and not
rendering the slides itself. It would be nice if Meetecho could find a way
to render clickable links. If this winds up being by rendering PDF slides
directly in the interface, we could also avoid "next slide" requests.

Jeffrey

--000000000000ec5e5605ab9588f6
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Often speakers have included links in their slides. These =
are clickable if you've opened the PDF in parallel, but not through the=
 main Meetecho interface, likely because Meetecho is just showing a screenc=
ast and not rendering the slides itself. It would be nice if Meetecho could=
 find a way to render clickable links. If this winds up being by rendering =
PDF slides directly in the interface, we could also avoid "next slide&=
quot; requests.

Jeffrey


--000000000000ec5e5605ab9588f6--


From nobody Wed Jul 29 07:44:12 2020
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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On 2020-07-29, at 16:40, Jeffrey Yasskin =
 wrote:
>=20
> Often speakers have included links in their slides. These are =
clickable if you've opened the PDF in parallel, but not through the main =
Meetecho interface, likely because Meetecho is just showing a screencast =
and not rendering the slides itself. It would be nice if Meetecho could =
find a way to render clickable links. If this winds up being by =
rendering PDF slides directly in the interface, we could also avoid =
"next slide" requests.

Hint for meetecho: Look how BigBlueButton handles slide presentation =
(and the associated whiteboard).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Toerless Eckert 
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: Tony Przygienda , Greg Shepherd 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Adding tools-discuss as the authoritative group for MeetEcho feature requests, bcc wgchairs

I want to be offensive-ranter (ok, better on smaller groups like BIER):

I find these strict timelines that MeetEcho introduces extremely terrible.

We had in BIER a poor presenter cut off just because we had a great presentation
and discussion in a slot in before and therefore ran out of time.

How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize all possible
before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should have
FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

No, i don't think 10 minutes before/after is sufficient. I think it should be
AT MINIMUM IMHO 30 minutes on both sides, before and after.

Pls. do not understand this big criticism as a big criticism of the tool.
It is not. It is just a criticism of this feature. The tool itself is on a great trajectory!

Cheers
    Toerless

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 03:46:46PM +0200, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> That's my 2nd middle name ...
> 
> lack-of-discipline is yours ;-)
> 
> -- tony
> 
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:34 PM Greg Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> > Coward. :)
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 6:10 AM Tony Przygienda 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think the 5 mins before hour cut-off keeps things tight and is a good
> >> thing ...
> >>
> >> -- tony
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:08 PM Jay Daley  wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 30/07/2020, at 1:01 AM, Greg Shepherd  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Having them stay open 10min after, or even to the actual WG ending hour
> >>> would be great too. Not everyone is running off to the next meeting.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> They can only be kept open for 5 minutes after the scheduled close of
> >>> the meeting as the same server/room is then used for another session and
> >>> the 5 minute gap is used to close down the audio stream and other tidying
> >>> up.
> >>>
> >>> Jay
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Greg
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:54 AM Jay Daley  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 29/07/2020, at 10:47 PM, Tony Przygienda 
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Topic says it all. Rather than scrambling to figure out whether
> >>>> audio/preso/internet works right @ beginning of session 10 minutes dry-run
> >>>> grace period would be very helpful
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> They are now open 10 mins ahead of the session starting.  It wasn???t
> >>>> like that on day 1 but was changed for day 2 onwards.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jay
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -- tony
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Jay Daley
> >>>> IETF Executive Director
> >>>> jay@ietf.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> Jay Daley
> >>> IETF Executive Director
> >>> jay@ietf.org
> >>>
> >>>

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize =
all possible
> before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should =
have
> FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run =
their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the =
chairs, not a feature.


--Apple-Mail=_339CA003-7871-495C-AC08-AC53421C0E0A
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On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> =
wrote:
How is it =
possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize all =
possible
before andd =
after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should =
have
FEWER time =
constraints, we enforce MORE ?

Poor chair discipline does sometimes result =
in chairs trying to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure =
on the part of the chairs, not a feature.

=

--Apple-Mail=_339CA003-7871-495C-AC08-AC53421C0E0A--


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From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Jeffrey Yasskin , Tools Discussion 
Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Clickable links in slides
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From nobody Wed Jul 29 08:02:59 2020
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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:02:49 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: Ted Lemon 
Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , Tony Przygienda 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize all possible
> > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should have
> > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> 
> Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs, not a feature.

Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements or
trying to create a more strict regime ?

I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are fo physical rooms.

Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.

Cheers
    toerless


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:02 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there =
are fo physical rooms.

The reason is that we need a bio break and then to go to the next =
meeting. Forcing people to stay late or miss out is not a good solution.


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On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 11:02 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> =
wrote:
I see far =
fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are fo =
physical rooms.

The reason is that we need a bio break and =
then to go to the next meeting. Forcing people to stay late or miss out =
is not a good solution.

=

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To: "Salz, Rich" 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Clickable links in slides
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On 2020-07-29, at 17:00, Salz, Rich  =
wrote:
>=20
> Given all the presentation formats, I have found it most useful if I =
posted the links in the chat.  I did this as jabber scribe for one of =
the newcomer=E2=80=99s sessions.

BBB also has a download link right on the slide.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Tools Discussion 
Thread-Topic: meetecho feature request
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In-Reply-To: <20200729150249.GC1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:09:08 -0700
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To: Toerless Eckert 
Cc: Ted Lemon , Greg Shepherd ,  Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting on the
clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will be added. BIER
meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed not at +5 but -5 minutes.
Unannounced change of policy?

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize
> all possible
> > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should
> have
> > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> >
> > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run
> their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs,
> not a feature.
>
> Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements
> or
> trying to create a more strict regime ?
>
> I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are
> fo physical rooms.
>
> Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>
> Cheers
>     toerless
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
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> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>

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On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG =
meeting on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will =
be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my=C2=A0knowledge, was closed not at=
=C2=A0+5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?

R=
egards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Ecke=
rt <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 a=
t 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to util=
ize all possible

> > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we s=
hould have

> > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

> 

> Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run th=
eir meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs, n=
ot a feature.



Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements =
or

trying to create a more strict regime ?



I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are f=
o physical rooms.



Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.



Cheers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toerless



___________________________________________________________

Tools-discuss mailing list

Tools-discuss@i=
etf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu=
ss



Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org

bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org



Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at

http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues

or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org




--000000000000b9220705ab95f018--


From nobody Wed Jul 29 08:13:09 2020
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To: Greg Mirsky 
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> On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky  wrote:
>=20
> On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting on =
the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will be =
added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed not at +5 =
but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?

Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top of the =
hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to finish?

Jay


>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert > wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert > wrote:
> > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to =
utilize all possible
> > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we =
should have
> > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> >=20
> > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run =
their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the =
chairs, not a feature.
>=20
> Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, =
requirements or
> trying to create a more strict regime ?
>=20
> I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there =
are fo physical rooms.
>=20
> Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>=20
> Cheers
>     toerless
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss =

>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org  and =
mailarchive.ietf.org 
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb =

> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org =

>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues =

> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org =

> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG =
meeting on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period =
will be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was =
closed not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of =
policy?

Greg - =
are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top of the hour, =
which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to =
finish?

Jay



Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM =
Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at =
10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to =
utilize all possible

> > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where =
we should have

> > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

> 

> Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run =
their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the =
chairs, not a feature.



Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, =
requirements or

trying to create a more strict regime ?



I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there =
are fo physical rooms.



Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.



Cheers

    toerless



___________________________________________________________
=

Tools-discuss mailing list

Tools-discuss@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss



Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org

bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org



Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at

http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues

or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org



___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and =
mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at =
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to =
datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report =
tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org



-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

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From: Toerless Eckert 
To: "Salz, Rich" 
Cc: Tools Discussion 
Message-ID: <20200729151325.GD1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho feature request
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+1

We could start a wiki if we are disciplined. Would allow us to easily add our +1 behind feature or even -1.
(Trying to help meetecho team to priritize without getting into a meta dicussion how to formally do that)

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 03:07:34PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote:
> I would like to see a single ???request for changes??? list for meetecho. It can be something they maintain. Ideally the public could ???vote??? on priorities.
> 

> ___________________________________________________________
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> 
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> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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-- 
---
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Jay,

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 8:13 AM, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
>> On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky  wrote:
>>=20
>> On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting on =
the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will be =
added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed not at +5 =
but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
>=20
> Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top of =
the hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to =
finish?

In the 6man session, it ran for 5 min 15 seconds after the scheduled end =
of the session.  Just as expected.

Bob


>=20
> Jay
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>=20
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert  =
wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  =
wrote:
>> > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to =
utilize all possible
>> > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we =
should have
>> > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
>> >
>> > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run =
their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the =
chairs, not a feature.
>>=20
>> Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, =
requirements or
>> trying to create a more strict regime ?
>>=20
>> I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there =
are fo physical rooms.
>>=20
>> Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>>=20
>> Cheers
>>     toerless
>>=20
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>=20
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>=20
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> jay@ietf.org
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
From: Michael StJohns 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:18:27 -0400
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] 2 Meetecho suggestions
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1) It would be helpful if you could separate the participant list in to 
three (two) independently scrollable regions.  Looking down the list for 
a contact hides the speakers and queue.

2) It would be *really* useful if you could integrate one of the speech 
to text transcription tools so that we could get a window with what's 
being said.  There are two reasons to do this - first to help the hard 
of hearing or deaf, and second to be able to scan back and regain 
context of the conversation.

Thanks - Mike



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From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:18:51 -0700
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To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Toerless Eckert , Greg Shepherd ,  Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Hi Jay,
it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley  wrote:

>
>
> On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky  wrote:
>
> On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting on the
> clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will be added. BIE=
R
> meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed not at +5 but -5 minutes=
.
> Unannounced change of policy?
>
>
> Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top of the =
hour,
> which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to finish?
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>> > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize
>> all possible
>> > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we
>> should have
>> > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
>> >
>> > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run
>> their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chai=
rs,
>> not a feature.
>>
>> Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences,
>> requirements or
>> trying to create a more strict regime ?
>>
>> I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there ar=
e
>> fo physical rooms.
>>
>> Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>>
>> Cheers
>>     toerless
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> jay@ietf.org
>
>

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Hi Jay,
it could be. I was not taking notes at the mom=
ent.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 29, =
2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org<=
/a>> wrote:
<=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">

On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed t=
he SPRING WG meeting on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace=
 period will be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my=C2=A0knowledge, was =
closed not at=C2=A0+5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?

Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t =
five minutes before the top of the hour, which is five minutes after the me=
eting is scheduled to finish?

Jay



Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Ecke=
rt <tte@cs.fau.de=
> wrote:
On W=
ed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to util=
ize all possible

> > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we s=
hould have

> > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

> 

> Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run th=
eir meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs, n=
ot a feature.



Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements =
or

trying to create a more strict regime ?



I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are f=
o physical rooms.



Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.



Cheers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toerless



___________________________________________________________

Tools-discuss mailing list

Tools-discuss@i=
etf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu=
ss



Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org



Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at

http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues

or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org



___________________________________________________________
Tools-discus=
s mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools=
.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
<=
br>Please report tools.=
ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools=
.ietf.org



--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org






--00000000000072bd7705ab961343--


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From: "Livingood, Jason" 
To: Toerless Eckert , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
CC: Tony Przygienda 
Thread-Topic: Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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From: Ted Lemon 
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Cc: Toerless Eckert , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , Tony Przygienda 
To: "Livingood, Jason" 
References:  <4F7672D9-91FE-4D0E-ADA0-69EB0C2438A9@ietf.org>      <20200729144816.GB1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Livingood, Jason =
 wrote:
> - Allow users to enter a meeting session 60 mins beforehand and for =
the session to run for 120 mins afterwards before the session =
terminates. (Seems logical that they must terminate to free up server =
resources - but enable some normal meeting time run over as well as =
post-meeting banter/wrap up.)

Please no. This would be a real abuse of the IETF process. A 120 minute =
meeting afterwards would be a side meeting, not the WG meeting. It =
should be handled explicitly as a side meeting.

If we want WGs to have more time, this isn=E2=80=99t the way to do it.


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On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
- Allow users to enter a meeting session 60 mins beforehand =
and for the session to run for 120 mins afterwards before the session =
terminates. (Seems logical that they must terminate to free up server =
resources - but enable some normal meeting time run over as well as =
post-meeting banter/wrap up.)

Please no. This would be a real abuse of the =
IETF process. A 120 minute meeting afterwards would be a side meeting, =
not the WG meeting. It should be handled explicitly as a side =
meeting.

If we =
want WGs to have more time, this isn=E2=80=99t the way to do =
it.

=

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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:32:29 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Greg Mirsky , Greg Shepherd , Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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I think we where given 5 minutes in BIER.

But seriously,  5 minutes ? Are we working here or is this going to deteriorate
to something like a death-by-powerpoint on the clock sessions ?
This is not my practical experience from in-person meetings.

The last round of EU politication negotiations went over time by just a couple of days of real work.

Seriously: IMHO sessions could/should expand much more flexibly in a virtual environment:

Good chairs would try to manage time by asking the room when they see that they are tight
if/how attendees can stay over.

Chairs can also figure out if they can call quickly a WG side meeting when agenda overflows.
etc. pp. All of these things would be possible if WG chairs are given the authority to
create their own meeting sessions like it was possible with webex.

Sessions could start 30 minutes earlier for testing, chit/chat, p2p questions to chairs etc. pp.

Of course, WG chairs just serve on the pleasure of ADs, so i just raised this also with the IESG.

Cheers
    Toerless



On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 03:13:00AM +1200, Jay Daley wrote:
> 
> 
> > On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky  wrote:
> > 
> > On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
> 
> Greg - are you sure it wasn???t five minutes before the top of the hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to finish?
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> > 
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert > wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> > > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert > wrote:
> > > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize all possible
> > > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should have
> > > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> > > 
> > > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs, not a feature.
> > 
> > Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements or
> > trying to create a more strict regime ?
> > 
> > I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are fo physical rooms.
> > 
> > Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
> > 
> > Cheers
> >     toerless
> > 
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list
> > Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss 
> > 
> > Please report datatracker.ietf.org  and mailarchive.ietf.org 
> > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb 
> > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org 
> > 
> > Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
> > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues 
> > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org 
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list
> > Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> > 
> > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> > 
> > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> 
> -- 
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> jay@ietf.org
> 

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: "Livingood, Jason" 
To: Ted Lemon 
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Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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From: Toerless Eckert 
To: Ted Lemon 
Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , Tony Przygienda 
Message-ID: <20200729153631.GF1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Ted,

I need to check more how much of the usual in-between session break time we have in the
agenda. If it's similar, then we could emulate common physcial meeting experience to
allow past-meeting time for that period.

As said in other mail, we should ahve meetecho for ad-hoc WG side meetings later in the
week for specific topics. These where greeat in physcial meetings, albeit they where
not "official". But we have no way for non-chairs to set up a quick side meeting
without getting on top of all-private tooling. Hence WG-chairs could at least
help to set these up and allow them to use official WG tooling. Remember last such
side meeting being ANIMA/ACME and LAMPs derived...

Cheers
    Toerless

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 11:27:52AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Livingood, Jason  wrote:
> > - Allow users to enter a meeting session 60 mins beforehand and for the session to run for 120 mins afterwards before the session terminates. (Seems logical that they must terminate to free up server resources - but enable some normal meeting time run over as well as post-meeting banter/wrap up.)
> 
> Please no. This would be a real abuse of the IETF process. A 120 minute meeting afterwards would be a side meeting, not the WG meeting. It should be handled explicitly as a side meeting.
> 
> If we want WGs to have more time, this isn???t the way to do it.
> 

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Livingood, Jason =
 wrote:
> Fair enough, Ted. I guess they key point is it=E2=80=99d be nice to be =
able to join more than 10 mins ahead of time to test A/V and do other =
prep =E2=80=93 especially for the WG chairs & presenters. And =
secondarily to let sessions run a bit past the precise time the session =
ends, because we=E2=80=99ve all been in sessions that end up running a =
bit over. What the exact time before/after is matters less to me that it =
is possible. And I think the time in advance for A/V testing is more =
important of the two suggestions.

Agree on start times. I think a five minute buffer at the end is working =
reasonably well, but chairs should really stop presentations at the end =
time; any overrun could be allowed for mic comments. Working group =
chairs should not be further encouraged to be careless about allocating =
meeting time.


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On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
Fair enough, =
Ted. I guess they key point is it=E2=80=99d be nice to be able to join =
more than 10 mins ahead of time to test A/V and do other prep =E2=80=93 =
especially for the WG chairs & presenters. And secondarily to let =
sessions run a bit past the precise time the session ends, because =
we=E2=80=99ve all been in sessions that end up running a bit over. What =
the exact time before/after is matters less to me that it is possible. =
And I think the time in advance for A/V testing is more important of the =
two suggestions.

Agree on start times. I think a five minute buffer at the end =
is working reasonably well, but chairs should really stop presentations =
at the end time; any overrun could be allowed for mic comments. Working =
group chairs should not be further encouraged to be careless about =
allocating meeting time.

=

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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Jason,

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Livingood, Jason =
 wrote:
>=20
> Fair enough, Ted. I guess they key point is it=E2=80=99d be nice to be =
able to join more than 10 mins ahead of time to test A/V and do other =
prep =E2=80=93 especially for the WG chairs & presenters. And =
secondarily to let sessions run a bit past the precise time the session =
ends, because we=E2=80=99ve all been in sessions that end up running a =
bit over. What the exact time before/after is matters less to me that it =
is possible. And I think the time in advance for A/V testing is more =
important of the two suggestions.

I think this is about right.   Opening up the room 15 minutes early =
should allow for the chairs and speakers to test their audio, and 5 =
minutes after allows for a small amount of session overflow.

Bob


>=20
> Jason
>=20
> From: Ted Lemon 
> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 11:28 AM
> To: "Livingood, Jason" 
> Cc: Toerless Eckert , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" =
, Tony Przygienda 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to =
chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
>=20
> On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Livingood, Jason =
 wrote:
>> - Allow users to enter a meeting session 60 mins beforehand and for =
the session to run for 120 mins afterwards before the session =
terminates. (Seems logical that they must terminate to free up server =
resources - but enable some normal meeting time run over as well as =
post-meeting banter/wrap up.)
>=20
> Please no. This would be a real abuse of the IETF process. A 120 =
minute meeting afterwards would be a side meeting, not the WG meeting. =
It should be handled explicitly as a side meeting.
>=20
> If we want WGs to have more time, this isn=E2=80=99t the way to do it.
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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Do we need to give the chairs the ability to close the queue, like we do =
in face to face meetings?

Bob



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It's okay, Toerless. He's probably never had you at the mic. :)

- Shep

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:02 AM Toerless Eckert  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize
> all possible
> > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we should
> have
> > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> >
> > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run
> their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs,
> not a feature.
>
> Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements
> or
> trying to create a more strict regime ?
>
> I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are
> fo physical rooms.
>
> Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>
> Cheers
>     toerless
>

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It's okay, Toerless. He's probably=C2=A0never had =
you at the mic. :)

- Shep

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8=
:02 AM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM =
-0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to util=
ize all possible

> > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual where we s=
hould have

> > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

> 

> Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying to run th=
eir meetings into the break. This is a failure on the part of the chairs, n=
ot a feature.



Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences, requirements =
or

trying to create a more strict regime ?



I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits than there are f=
o physical rooms.



Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.



Cheers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toerless




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On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
> Do we need to give the chairs the ability to close the queue, like we =
do in face to face meetings?

Yes, and it would also be good if chairs could cut off the mic when =
someone is talking over them=E2=80=94that happened once or twice during =
DNSOP and the speaker didn=E2=80=99t even realize they were being =
interrupted.


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On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Do we need to give the chairs the ability to close the queue, =
like we do in face to face meetings?

Yes, and it would also be good if chairs =
could cut off the mic when someone is talking over them=E2=80=94that =
happened once or twice during DNSOP and the speaker didn=E2=80=99t even =
realize they were being interrupted.

=

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From: Doug Montgomery 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:57:15 -0400
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] meetech feature request - split chat & speaker identification
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1.  In a few working groups where audio queue management has seemed a bit
slow / awkward - I found it much more efficient to just type a full
sentence question into the meetecho chat.  The chair noticed the chat read
the question - identifying it as coming from me - and it was smooth &
seamless.    The feature request I would like to suggest is a way to
highlight or separate a chat message that is meant "for the room / meeting"
and the usual side conversations (snarking) that is going on in the chat.
 "mic:" prefix is not really enough in large WGs with a lot of side chat.

2.  Recognizing the other comments about the difficulty of identifying who
is speaking - I would like to suggest that having the tool display a
datatracker registered avatar/image of the those enabled to send audio,
display their registration name / affiliation below their image, and
putting indication (e.g. red border) around the image tile of those
actually speaking would be useful.   Frankly, while I find seeing
everyone's home office interesting, I think this functionality would be
much more useful in speaker tracking than the live video of the speakers.

dougm
-- 
DougM at Work

--000000000000bb909805ab969c61
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1.=C2=A0 In a few working groups where audio queue ma=
nagement has seemed a bit slow / awkward - I found it much more efficient t=
o just type a full sentence=C2=A0question into the meetecho chat.=C2=A0 The=
 chair noticed the chat read the question - identifying it as coming from m=
e - and it was smooth & seamless.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The feature request I wo=
uld like to suggest is a way to highlight or separate a chat message that i=
s meant "for the room / meeting" and the usual side conversations=
=C2=A0(snarking) that is going on in the chat.=C2=A0 =C2=A0"mic:"=
 prefix is not really enough in large WGs with a lot of side chat.=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0

2.=C2=A0 Recognizing the other comments abo=
ut the difficulty of identifying who is speaking - I would like to suggest =
that having the tool display a datatracker registered avatar/image of the t=
hose enabled to send=C2=A0audio, display their registration name / affiliat=
ion below their image, and putting indication (e.g. red border) around the =
image tile of those actually speaking would be useful.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Frankly,=
 while I find seeing everyone's home office interesting, I think this f=
unctionality would be much more useful in speaker tracking than the live vi=
deo of the speakers.=C2=A0=C2=A0

dougm
-- 
DougM at Work


--000000000000bb909805ab969c61--


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To: Greg Mirsky , Jay Daley 
Cc: Greg Shepherd , Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
References:  <4F7672D9-91FE-4D0E-ADA0-69EB0C2438A9@ietf.org>      <20200729144816.GB1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>  <20200729150249.GC1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>  <22D51C93-47BB-4F12-BBD0-41FBC760248B@ietf.org> 
From: Meetecho IETF support 
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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:57:46 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after the scheduled end 
time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs:

	https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html

See my message at 12:55:45.

Alessandro

Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:
> Hi Jay,
> it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.
> 
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>     On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky >     > wrote:
>>
>>     On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting
>>     on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will
>>     be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed
>>     not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
> 
>     Greg - are you sure it wasn’t five minutes before the top of the
>     hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to finish?
> 
>     Jay
> 
> 
>>
>>     Regards,
>>     Greg
>>
>>     On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert >     > wrote:
>>
>>         On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>         > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert >         > wrote:
>>         > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able
>>         to utilize all possible
>>         > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual
>>         where we should have
>>         > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
>>         >
>>         > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying
>>         to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the
>>         part of the chairs, not a feature.
>>
>>         Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences,
>>         requirements or
>>         trying to create a more strict regime ?
>>
>>         I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits
>>         than there are fo physical rooms.
>>
>>         Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>>
>>         Cheers
>>             toerless
>>
>>         ___________________________________________________________
>>         Tools-discuss mailing list
>>         Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>>         Please report datatracker.ietf.org
>>          and mailarchive.ietf.org
>>         
>>         bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>>         or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>         
>>
>>         Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
>>         http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>>         or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>>         
>>
>>     ___________________________________________________________
>>     Tools-discuss mailing list
>>     Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>>     Please report datatracker.ietf.org 
>>     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
>>     bugs at http://tools..ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>>     
>>     or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>     
>>
>>     Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
>>     http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>>     or send email to webmaster@tools..ietf.org
>>     
> 
>     -- 
>     Jay Daley
>     IETF Executive Director
>     jay@ietf.org 
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> 


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From: Bob Hinden 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho minor suggestion
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When a session closes, could the browser be redirected back to the =
agenda page.  For example for this meeting:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda/

That would make it easier to find the link to the next session one wants =
to attend.

Or at least include a link to this page on the meeting ended page.

Thanks,

Bob



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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:07:25 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Meetecho IETF support 
Cc: Greg Mirsky , Jay Daley ,  Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins before the hour. I
could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meeting was over.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support 
wrote:

> The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after the scheduled end
> time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs:
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html
>
> See my message at 12:55:45.
>
> Alessandro
>
> Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:
> > Hi Jay,
> > it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>     On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky  >>     > wrote:
> >>
> >>     On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG meeting
> >>     on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace period will
> >>     be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed
> >>     not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
> >
> >     Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top o=
f the
> >     hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to finis=
h?
> >
> >     Jay
> >
> >
> >>
> >>     Regards,
> >>     Greg
> >>
> >>     On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert  >>     > wrote:
> >>
> >>         On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> >>         > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  >>         > wrote:
> >>         > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able
> >>         to utilize all possible
> >>         > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual
> >>         where we should have
> >>         > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> >>         >
> >>         > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs trying
> >>         to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure on the
> >>         part of the chairs, not a feature.
> >>
> >>         Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common experiences,
> >>         requirements or
> >>         trying to create a more strict regime ?
> >>
> >>         I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits
> >>         than there are fo physical rooms.
> >>
> >>         Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
> >>
> >>         Cheers
> >>             toerless
> >>
> >>         ___________________________________________________________
> >>         Tools-discuss mailing list
> >>         Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> >>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> >>
> >>         Please report datatracker.ietf.org
> >>          and mailarchive.ietf.org
> >>         
> >>         bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> >>         or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> >>         
> >>
> >>         Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
> >>         http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> >>         or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> >>         
> >>
> >>     ___________________________________________________________
> >>     Tools-discuss mailing list
> >>     Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> >>
> >>     Please report datatracker.ietf.org 
> >>     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
> >>     bugs at http://tools..ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> >>     
> >>     or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> >>     
> >>
> >>     Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
> >>     http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> >>     or send email to webmaster@tools..ietf.org
> >>     
> >
> >     --
> >     Jay Daley
> >     IETF Executive Director
> >     jay@ietf.org 
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list
> > Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> >
> > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> >
> > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> >
>

--000000000000db64bb05ab96c12f
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The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins bef=
ore the hour. I could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meetin=
g was over.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support <ietf@meetecho.com> wrote:
The BIER meeting has been c=
losed 15 minutes after the scheduled end 

time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.or=
g/jabber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html



See my message at 12:55:45.



Alessandro



Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:

> Hi Jay,

> it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.

> 

> Regards,

> Greg

> 

> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org 

> <mailto:jay@ietf.=
org>> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the=
 SPRING WG meeting

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the clock. It was announced that five minute=
s grace period will

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my=C2=A0=
knowledge, was closed

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not at=C2=A0+5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced chan=
ge of policy?

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes =
before the top of the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is sc=
heduled to finish?

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay

> 

> 

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards,

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert=
 <tte@cs.fau.de
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02A=
M -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM=
, Toerless Eckert <tt=
e@cs.fau.de

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > How is it possible that=
 in a physcial meeting we are able

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to utilize all possible

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > before andd after meeti=
ng times, and now going virtual

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0where we should have

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > FEWER time constraints,=
 we enforce MORE ?

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Poor chair discipline does s=
ometimes result in chairs trying

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to run their meetings into the br=
eak. This is a failure on the

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0part of the chairs, not a feature=
.

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sure, but are we trying to virtua=
lize our common experiences,

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirements or

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trying to create a more strict re=
gime ?

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I see far fewer reasons for stric=
t meetecho session limits

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than there are fo physical rooms.=


>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sorry, but this makes totally no =
sense to me.

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toerless

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_________________________________=
__________________________

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss mailing list

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please report datatracker.ietf.=
org

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/> and mailarchive.ietf.org

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://mailarchive..ietf.org/>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bugs at http://tools.iet=
f.org/tools/ietfdb

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.=
org

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please report tools.ietf.org <=
htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/> bugs at

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://tools.ietf.org/to=
ols/issues

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org<=
br>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>
>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________=
____________

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss mailing list

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please report datatracker.ietf.org <=
http://datatracker.ietf.org>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and mailarchive.ietf.org <http://mai=
larchive.ietf.org>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bugs at http://tools..ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb=
>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>

>>

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please report tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.=
org> bugs at

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues=


>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send email to webmaster@tools..ietf.org

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0j=
ay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org>

> 

> 

> ___________________________________________________________

> Tools-discuss mailing list

> Tools-disc=
uss@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-=
discuss

> 

> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org

> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

> 

> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at

> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues

> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

> 




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That=E2=80=99s exactly what happens for me (Chrome on MacOS) when I exit =
a session.   What do you get? =20

> On 30/07/2020, at 4:04 AM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
>=20
> When a session closes, could the browser be redirected back to the =
agenda page.  For example for this meeting:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda/
>=20
> That would make it easier to find the link to the next session one =
wants to attend.
>=20
> Or at least include a link to this page on the meeting ended page.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Bob
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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That=E2=80=99s exactly what happens for me (Chrome on MacOS) =
when I exit a session.   What do you get?  

On 30/07/2020, at 4:04 AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

When =
a session closes, could the browser be redirected back to the agenda =
page.  For example for this meeting:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda/

That would make it easier to find the link to =
the next session one wants to attend.

Or at =
least include a link to this page on the meeting ended page.

Thanks,

Bob


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and =
mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at =
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to =
datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report =
tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org



-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_CC9C65E5-6E23-43A3-A932-B9B78D1BD49B--


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To: gjshep@gmail.com, Meetecho IETF support 
Cc: Greg Mirsky , Jay Daley , Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
References:  <4F7672D9-91FE-4D0E-ADA0-69EB0C2438A9@ietf.org>      <20200729144816.GB1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>  <20200729150249.GC1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>  <22D51C93-47BB-4F12-BBD0-41FBC760248B@ietf.org>   
From: "info@meetecho.com" 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Il 29/07/20 18:07, Greg Shepherd ha scritto:
> The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins before the hour. 
> I could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meeting was over.

Correct. And it was supposed to end 20 minutes before the hour as per 
the schedule, so it went 15 minutes overtime like I said ;).

A.

> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support  > wrote:
> 
>     The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after the scheduled end
>     time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs:
> 
>     https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html
> 
>     See my message at 12:55:45.
> 
>     Alessandro
> 
>     Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:
>      > Hi Jay,
>      > it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.
>      >
>      > Regards,
>      > Greg
>      >
>      > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley      
>      > >> wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >>     On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky
>     
>      >>          >> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>     On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG
>     meeting
>      >>     on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace
>     period will
>      >>     be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was closed
>      >>     not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
>      >
>      >     Greg - are you sure it wasn’t five minutes before the top of the
>      >     hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled to
>     finish?
>      >
>      >     Jay
>      >
>      >
>      >>
>      >>     Regards,
>      >>     Greg
>      >>
>      >>     On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert
>     
>      >>     >> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>         On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
>      >>         > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert
>     
>      >>         >> wrote:
>      >>         > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are
>     able
>      >>         to utilize all possible
>      >>         > > before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual
>      >>         where we should have
>      >>         > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
>      >>         >
>      >>         > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs
>     trying
>      >>         to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure
>     on the
>      >>         part of the chairs, not a feature.
>      >>
>      >>         Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common
>     experiences,
>      >>         requirements or
>      >>         trying to create a more strict regime ?
>      >>
>      >>         I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits
>      >>         than there are fo physical rooms.
>      >>
>      >>         Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>      >>
>      >>         Cheers
>      >>             toerless
>      >>
>      >>         ___________________________________________________________
>      >>         Tools-discuss mailing list
>      >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>     >
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>      >>
>      >>         Please report datatracker.ietf.org
>     
>      >>          and mailarchive.ietf.org
>     
>      >>         >
>      >>         bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>      >>         or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>     
>      >>              >
>      >>
>      >>         Please report tools.ietf.org 
>      bugs at
>      >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>      >>         or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>     
>      >>              >
>      >>
>      >>     ___________________________________________________________
>      >>     Tools-discuss mailing list
>      >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>     >
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>      >>
>      >>     Please report datatracker.ietf.org
>      
>      >>     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
>     
>      >>     bugs at http://tools..ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>     
>      >>     
>      >>     or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>     
>      >>          >
>      >>
>      >>     Please report tools.ietf.org 
>      bugs at
>      >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>      >>     or send email to webmaster@tools..ietf.org 
>      >>          >
>      >
>      >     --
>      >     Jay Daley
>      >     IETF Executive Director
>      > jay@ietf.org       >
>      >
>      >
>      > ___________________________________________________________
>      > Tools-discuss mailing list
>      > Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>      >
>      > Please report datatracker.ietf.org 
>     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
>      > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>      > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>     
>      >
>      > Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
>      > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>      > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>     
>      >
> 

-- 
Meetecho s.r.l.
www.meetecho.com


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In-Reply-To: <60ef71a9-905f-0227-c59c-09cfb86733d5@meetecho.com>
From: Tony Przygienda 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 18:12:03 +0200
Message-ID: 
To: "info@meetecho.com" 
Cc: Greg Shepherd , Meetecho IETF support , Greg Mirsky , Jay Daley ,  Tools Team Discussion 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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yepp, it was generous enough, thanks


On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 6:11 PM info@meetecho.com  wrote=
:

> Il 29/07/20 18:07, Greg Shepherd ha scritto:
> > The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins before the hour.
> > I could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meeting was over=
.
>
> Correct. And it was supposed to end 20 minutes before the hour as per
> the schedule, so it went 15 minutes overtime like I said ;).
>
> A.
>
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support  > > wrote:
> >
> >     The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after the scheduled end
> >     time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs:
> >
> >     https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html
> >
> >     See my message at 12:55:45.
> >
> >     Alessandro
> >
> >     Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:
> >      > Hi Jay,
> >      > it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.
> >      >
> >      > Regards,
> >      > Greg
> >      >
> >      > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley  >     
> >      > >> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >>     On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky
> >     
> >      >>      >     >> wrote:
> >      >>
> >      >>     On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG
> >     meeting
> >      >>     on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace
> >     period will
> >      >>     be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was
> closed
> >      >>     not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
> >      >
> >      >     Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before th=
e top of
> the
> >      >     hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled t=
o
> >     finish?
> >      >
> >      >     Jay
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >>
> >      >>     Regards,
> >      >>     Greg
> >      >>
> >      >>     On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert
> >     
> >      >>     >> wrote:
> >      >>
> >      >>         On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon
> wrote:
> >      >>         > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert
> >     
> >      >>         >> wrote:
> >      >>         > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we ar=
e
> >     able
> >      >>         to utilize all possible
> >      >>         > > before andd after meeting times, and now going
> virtual
> >      >>         where we should have
> >      >>         > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
> >      >>         >
> >      >>         > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs
> >     trying
> >      >>         to run their meetings into the break. This is a failure
> >     on the
> >      >>         part of the chairs, not a feature.
> >      >>
> >      >>         Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common
> >     experiences,
> >      >>         requirements or
> >      >>         trying to create a more strict regime ?
> >      >>
> >      >>         I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session
> limits
> >      >>         than there are fo physical rooms.
> >      >>
> >      >>         Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
> >      >>
> >      >>         Cheers
> >      >>             toerless
> >      >>
> >      >>
>  ___________________________________________________________
> >      >>         Tools-discuss mailing list
> >      >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> >     >
> >      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> >      >>
> >      >>         Please report datatracker.ietf.org
> >     
> >      >>          and mailarchive.ietf.org
> >     
> >      >>         >
> >      >>         bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> >      >>         or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> >     
> >      >>          >     >
> >      >>
> >      >>         Please report tools.ietf.org 
> >      bugs at
> >      >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> >      >>         or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> >     
> >      >>          >     >
> >      >>
> >      >>     ___________________________________________________________
> >      >>     Tools-discuss mailing list
> >      >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> >     >
> >      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> >      >>
> >      >>     Please report datatracker.ietf.org
> >      
> >      >>     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
> >     
> >      >>     bugs at http://tools..ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> >     
> >      >>     
> >      >>     or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> >     
> >      >>      >     >
> >      >>
> >      >>     Please report tools.ietf.org 
> >      bugs at
> >      >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> >      >>     or send email to webmaster@tools..ietf.org 
> >      >>      >     >
> >      >
> >      >     --
> >      >     Jay Daley
> >      >     IETF Executive Director
> >      > jay@ietf.org   >     >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > ___________________________________________________________
> >      > Tools-discuss mailing list
> >      > Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> >      >
> >      > Please report datatracker.ietf.org 
> >     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
> >      > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> >      > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> >     
> >      >
> >      > Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
> >      > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> >      > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> >     
> >      >
> >
>
> --
> Meetecho s.r.l.
> www.meetecho.com
>

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yepp, it was generous enough, thanks


On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 6:11 PM in=
fo@meetecho.com <info@meetecho.=
com> wrote:
Il 29/07/20 18:07, Greg Shepherd ha scritto:

> The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins before the hour=
. 

> I could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meeting was ove=
r.



Correct. And it was supposed to end 20 minutes before the hour as per 

the schedule, so it went 15 minutes overtime like I said ;).



A.



> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support <ietf@meetecho.com 

> <mailto:ietf=
@meetecho.com>> wrote:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after t=
he scheduled end

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs=
:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/ja=
bber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0See my message at 12:55:45.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alessandro

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Jay,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it could be. I was not taking notes at the mo=
ment.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Regards,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Greg

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley <=
;jay@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jay@ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:jay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org>>> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 30/07/2020, at 3:09=
 AM, Greg Mirsky

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On the first day of IE=
TF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meeting

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the clock. It was a=
nnounced that five minutes grace

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0period will

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be added. BIER meeting=
, to the best of my=C2=A0knowledge, was closed

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not at=C2=A0+5 but -5 =
minutes. Unannounced change of policy?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg - are you sure it was=
n=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top of the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hour, which is five minute=
s after the meeting is scheduled to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0finish?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 a=
t 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>>> =
wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, =
Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mail=
to:tte@cs.fau.de <=
;mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>>> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=
; How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0able

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to utili=
ze all possible

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=
; before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0where we=
 should have

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=
; FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Poo=
r chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trying

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to run t=
heir meetings into the break. This is a failure

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0part of =
the chairs, not a feature.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sure, bu=
t are we trying to virtualize our common

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experiences,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirem=
ents or

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trying t=
o create a more strict regime ?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I see fa=
r fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than the=
re are fo physical rooms.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sorry, b=
ut this makes totally no sense to me.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 toerless

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0________=
___________________________________________________

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-di=
scuss mailing list

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>&g=
t;

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please r=
eport datatracker.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://datatracker.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<h=
ttp://datatracker.ietf.org/> and mailarchive.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://mailarchive.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://mai=
larchive..ietf.org/ <http://ietf.org/>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bugs at =
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send =
email to =
datatracker-project@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mail=
to:datatr=
acker-project@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please r=
eport tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://tools.ietf.org/> bugs at

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issu=
es

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send =
email to webm=
aster@tools.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mail=
to:webmaster@=
tools.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________=
_____________________________________

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss mailing =
list

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>&g=
t;

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please report datat=
racker.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://datatracker.ietf.org> <htt=
p://datatracker.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and mailarchive.ietf=
.org <http://mailarchive.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://mailarchive.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bugs at http://tools..ietf=
.org/tools/ietfdb

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org/tools/ietfdb>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://to=
ols.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send email to datatracker-pr=
oject@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@=
ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please report tools.ietf.=
org <http://tools.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://tools.ietf.org> bugs at

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issu=
es

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send email to webma=
ster@tools..ietf.org <http://ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org=


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > jay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org> <mailto:jay@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jay@ietf.org>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _____________________________________________=
______________

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Tools-discuss mailing list

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org <=
http://datatracker.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and mailarchive.ietf.org <http://mailarc=
hive.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/=
ietfdb

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Please report tools.ietf.org <http://tools.iet=
f.org> bugs at

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

> 



-- 

Meetecho s.r.l.

ww=
w.meetecho.com




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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho minor suggestion
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I think Bob means that when a meeting is terminated by the chairs/us you 
still need to click on the "exit" button in order to get redirected to 
the agenda page. The redirect could indeed be triggered automatically 
after 10 seconds or so. Noted.

Alessandro

Il 29/07/20 18:11, Jay Daley ha scritto:
> That’s exactly what happens for me (Chrome on MacOS) when I exit a 
> session.   What do you get?
> 
>> On 30/07/2020, at 4:04 AM, Bob Hinden > > wrote:
>>
>> When a session closes, could the browser be redirected back to the 
>> agenda page.  For example for this meeting:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda/
>>
>> That would make it easier to find the link to the next session one 
>> wants to attend.
>>
>> Or at least include a link to this page on the meeting ended page.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> 
> -- 
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> jay@ietf.org 
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
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> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] A few more meetecho suggestions
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Scrolling away the queue/media box when you scroll the attendees is =
wrong.

Pre-roll mic/cam for people who are in the queue.  Tell them when what =
the server sees is not healthy.  You can then switch them on immediately =
when the access is granted.

Add a small session elapsed (starting at scheduled time) and session =
remaining (zeroing at scheduled time) wall clock, for everyone to see.

Document that physical switches in the mic line lead to echo.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Jay Daley 
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Jay,

> On Jul 29, 2020, at 9:11 AM, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s exactly what happens for me (Chrome on MacOS) when I =
exit a session.   What do you get?

I just get the session is ended after it times out.

Bob

>=20
>> On 30/07/2020, at 4:04 AM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
>>=20
>> When a session closes, could the browser be redirected back to the =
agenda page.  For example for this meeting:
>>=20
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda/
>>=20
>> That would make it easier to find the link to the next session one =
wants to attend.
>>=20
>> Or at least include a link to this page on the meeting ended page.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Bob
>>=20
>>=20
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>=20
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> jay@ietf.org
>=20


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To: Meetecho IETF support 
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> On Jul 29, 2020, at 9:17 AM, Meetecho IETF support  =
wrote:
>=20
> I think Bob means that when a meeting is terminated by the chairs/us =
you still need to click on the "exit" button in order to get redirected =
to the agenda page. The redirect could indeed be triggered automatically =
after 10 seconds or so. Noted.

Thanks!

Bob

>=20
> Alessandro
>=20
> Il 29/07/20 18:11, Jay Daley ha scritto:
>> That=E2=80=99s exactly what happens for me (Chrome on MacOS) when I =
exit a session.   What do you get?
>>> On 30/07/2020, at 4:04 AM, Bob Hinden > wrote:
>>>=20
>>> When a session closes, could the browser be redirected back to the =
agenda page.  For example for this meeting:
>>>=20
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda/
>>>=20
>>> That would make it easier to find the link to the next session one =
wants to attend.
>>>=20
>>> Or at least include a link to this page on the meeting ended page.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> Bob
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ___________________________________________________________
>>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>>=20
>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>> --
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director
>> jay@ietf.org 
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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References:  <4F7672D9-91FE-4D0E-ADA0-69EB0C2438A9@ietf.org>      <20200729144816.GB1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>  <20200729150249.GC1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>  <22D51C93-47BB-4F12-BBD0-41FBC760248B@ietf.org>    <60ef71a9-905f-0227-c59c-09cfb86733d5@meetecho.com> 
In-Reply-To: 
Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 12:05:40 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Tony Przygienda 
Cc: "info@meetecho.com" , Meetecho IETF support ,  Greg Mirsky , Jay Daley ,  Tools Team Discussion 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000928d1605ab993e88"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Well, years of in-person meetings, where 5min before the hour we are all
ejected, wholesale, scattered throughout the reception area to scrounge for
cookies, has certainly sharpened my timing skills to a tee. :)

That said, the meetecho performance was excellent and the ui was easy to
learn. Thanks!

- Shep

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:12 AM Tony Przygienda  wrote=
:

> yepp, it was generous enough, thanks
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 6:11 PM info@meetecho.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Il 29/07/20 18:07, Greg Shepherd ha scritto:
>> > The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins before the hour=
.
>> > I could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meeting was ove=
r.
>>
>> Correct. And it was supposed to end 20 minutes before the hour as per
>> the schedule, so it went 15 minutes overtime like I said ;).
>>
>> A.
>>
>> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support <
>> ietf@meetecho.com
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >     The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after the scheduled en=
d
>> >     time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs:
>> >
>> >     https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html
>> >
>> >     See my message at 12:55:45.
>> >
>> >     Alessandro
>> >
>> >     Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:
>> >      > Hi Jay,
>> >      > it could be. I was not taking notes at the moment.
>> >      >
>> >      > Regards,
>> >      > Greg
>> >      >
>> >      > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley > >     
>> >      > >> wrote:
>> >      >
>> >      >
>> >      >
>> >      >>     On 30/07/2020, at 3:09 AM, Greg Mirsky
>> >     
>> >      >>     > >     >> wrote:
>> >      >>
>> >      >>     On the first day of IETF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG
>> >     meeting
>> >      >>     on the clock. It was announced that five minutes grace
>> >     period will
>> >      >>     be added. BIER meeting, to the best of my knowledge, was
>> closed
>> >      >>     not at +5 but -5 minutes. Unannounced change of policy?
>> >      >
>> >      >     Greg - are you sure it wasn=E2=80=99t five minutes before t=
he top of
>> the
>> >      >     hour, which is five minutes after the meeting is scheduled =
to
>> >     finish?
>> >      >
>> >      >     Jay
>> >      >
>> >      >
>> >      >>
>> >      >>     Regards,
>> >      >>     Greg
>> >      >>
>> >      >>     On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert
>> >     
>> >      >>     >> wrote:
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon
>> wrote:
>> >      >>         > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert
>> >     
>> >      >>         >> wrote:
>> >      >>         > > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we a=
re
>> >     able
>> >      >>         to utilize all possible
>> >      >>         > > before andd after meeting times, and now going
>> virtual
>> >      >>         where we should have
>> >      >>         > > FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?
>> >      >>         >
>> >      >>         > Poor chair discipline does sometimes result in chair=
s
>> >     trying
>> >      >>         to run their meetings into the break. This is a failur=
e
>> >     on the
>> >      >>         part of the chairs, not a feature.
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         Sure, but are we trying to virtualize our common
>> >     experiences,
>> >      >>         requirements or
>> >      >>         trying to create a more strict regime ?
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         I see far fewer reasons for strict meetecho session
>> limits
>> >      >>         than there are fo physical rooms.
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         Sorry, but this makes totally no sense to me.
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         Cheers
>> >      >>             toerless
>> >      >>
>> >      >>
>>  ___________________________________________________________
>> >      >>         Tools-discuss mailing list
>> >      >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>> >     >
>> >      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         Please report datatracker.ietf.org
>> >     
>> >      >>          and mailarchive.ietf.or=
g
>> >     
>> >      >>         >
>> >      >>         bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> >      >>         or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>> >     
>> >      >>         > >     >
>> >      >>
>> >      >>         Please report tools.ietf.org 
>> >      bugs at
>> >      >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> >      >>         or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>> >     
>> >      >>         > >     >
>> >      >>
>> >      >>     __________________________________________________________=
_
>> >      >>     Tools-discuss mailing list
>> >      >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>> >     >
>> >      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>> >      >>
>> >      >>     Please report datatracker.ietf.org
>> >      
>> >      >>     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
>> >     
>> >      >>     bugs at http://tools..ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> >     
>> >      >>     
>> >      >>     or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>> >     
>> >      >>     > >     >
>> >      >>
>> >      >>     Please report tools.ietf.org 
>> >      bugs at
>> >      >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> >      >>     or send email to webmaster@tools..ietf.org > >
>> >      >>     > >     >
>> >      >
>> >      >     --
>> >      >     Jay Daley
>> >      >     IETF Executive Director
>> >      > jay@ietf.org  > >     >
>> >      >
>> >      >
>> >      > ___________________________________________________________
>> >      > Tools-discuss mailing list
>> >      > Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>> >      >
>> >      > Please report datatracker.ietf.org 
>> >     and mailarchive.ietf.org 
>> >      > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> >      > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>> >     
>> >      >
>> >      > Please report tools.ietf.org  bugs at
>> >      > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> >      > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>> >     
>> >      >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Meetecho s.r.l.
>> www.meetecho.com
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Well, years of in-person meetings, where 5min before the h=
our we are all ejected, wholesale, scattered throughout the reception area =
to scrounge for cookies, has certainly sharpened my timing skills to a tee.=
 :)

That said, the meetecho performance was excellent an=
d the ui was easy to learn. Thanks!

- Shep

On=
 Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:12 AM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
yepp, it was generou=
s enough, thanks


<=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 6:11 PM info@meetecho.com <=
info@meetecho.com> wrote:
Il =
29/07/20 18:07, Greg Shepherd ha scritto:

> The Meetecho session for the BIER meeting closed 5mins before the hour=
. 

> I could clearly see the Meetecho screen telling me the meeting was ove=
r.



Correct. And it was supposed to end 20 minutes before the hour as per 

the schedule, so it went 15 minutes overtime like I said ;).



A.



> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 AM Meetecho IETF support <ietf@meetecho.com 

> <mailto:ietf=
@meetecho.com>> wrote:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The BIER meeting has been closed 15 minutes after t=
he scheduled end

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time. You can clearly see that from the Jabber logs=
:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/ja=
bber/logs/bier/2020-07-29.html

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0See my message at 12:55:45.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alessandro

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Il 29/07/20 17:18, Greg Mirsky ha scritto:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Jay,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it could be. I was not taking notes at the mo=
ment.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Regards,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Greg

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jay Daley <=
;jay@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jay@ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:jay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org>>> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 30/07/2020, at 3:09=
 AM, Greg Mirsky

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On the first day of IE=
TF-108 Meetcho closed the SPRING WG

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meeting

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the clock. It was a=
nnounced that five minutes grace

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0period will

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be added. BIER meeting=
, to the best of my=C2=A0knowledge, was closed

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not at=C2=A0+5 but -5 =
minutes. Unannounced change of policy?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg - are you sure it was=
n=E2=80=99t five minutes before the top of the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hour, which is five minute=
s after the meeting is scheduled to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0finish?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 a=
t 8:03 AM Toerless Eckert

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>>> =
wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, =
Jul 29, 2020 at 10:56:02AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mail=
to:tte@cs.fau.de <=
;mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>>> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=
; How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0able

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to utili=
ze all possible

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=
; before andd after meeting times, and now going virtual

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0where we=
 should have

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=
; FEWER time constraints, we enforce MORE ?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Poo=
r chair discipline does sometimes result in chairs

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trying

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to run t=
heir meetings into the break. This is a failure

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0part of =
the chairs, not a feature.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sure, bu=
t are we trying to virtualize our common

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experiences,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirem=
ents or

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trying t=
o create a more strict regime ?

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I see fa=
r fewer reasons for strict meetecho session limits

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than the=
re are fo physical rooms.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sorry, b=
ut this makes totally no sense to me.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 toerless

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0________=
___________________________________________________

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-di=
scuss mailing list

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>&g=
t;

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please r=
eport datatracker.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://datatracker.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<h=
ttp://datatracker.ietf.org/> and mailarchive.ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://mailarchive.ietf.org>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://mai=
larchive..ietf.org/ <http://ietf.org/>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bugs at =
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or send =
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-- 

Meetecho s.r.l.

ww=
w.meetecho.com






--000000000000928d1605ab993e88--


From nobody Wed Jul 29 13:42:49 2020
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From: "Pete Resnick" 
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 15:42:25 -0500
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] MeetEcho A/V UI Suggestion
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So this is a more general change of UI than other suggestions, but might 
solve the problems people are having with the UI for muting/unmuting of 
video and audio, queueing, etc.

Right now, you have the "Queue", a list of people "Sending Media", and 
the rest of the "Particpants". I suggest changing that middle list to 
"The Floor". You should be able to "Request the Floor", which puts you 
in the queue. The chair can "Grant the Floor" to people in the queue (or 
I suppose straight from the "Participants" list, though that might be 
considered rude of the chair). You may (if allowed by the chair or the 
config) "Take the Floor", which moves you straight from the 
"Participants" to "The Floor". And of course you'll want to be able to 
"Leave the Floor" or "Leave the Queue".

The change above is somewhat boring by itself, but what it allows you to 
do is separate the concepts of muting/unmuting of your audio and video 
from the idea of going to the Queue or the Floor. That way I can have 
two big obvious buttons to mute or unmute my audio and video, 
independent of whether I am on the Floor or not. You can add UI so that 
I see my video locally if my video is turned on, and I can see a muted 
or unmuted microphone icon over it depending on the state of my mic. 
Then, when I go to the Floor, there's no question of whether or not I am 
sending audio/video. (Or at the very least, we're back to the same 
problem with every other A/V tool of people yelling, "Pete, unmute your 
audio." But hopefully this UI would make it a bit more obvious.)

Hope that helps.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


From nobody Wed Jul 29 13:57:07 2020
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On 2020-07-29, at 22:42, Pete Resnick  wrote:
>=20
> The Floor

Makes a lot of sense.

As a refinement, I would offer that there is a difference between the =
Mic line (where you are seen and speaking, but can naturally take =
turns), and taking over the projector (of which there is only one in the =
room).  So granting someone the Mic doesn=E2=80=99t mean that they =
should be (willfully or accidentally) replacing the shared screen.  That =
is even more important as there are usually three roles on the floor:

=E2=80=94 Chairs
=E2=80=94 Presenters
=E2=80=94 Head of mic line, plus possible someone standing there with =
you as a counterpoint

Apart from that (important) detail, I think that moving the interface =
from thinking in terms of media streams (which are the natural way of =
thinking for a Meetecho developer) to actual application concepts such =
as =E2=80=9CThe Floor=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CThe presenter=E2=80=9D (what a =
meeting participant has in mind) makes sense.
Usually each participant can decide at the start of the meeting whether =
they want to be seen, and can get the camera access dialog behind them =
(same for mic access dialog).
The chairs can decide whether they want to have a gallery view (rare, =
but sometimes useful) or the usual screen-sharing one for the segment of =
the meeting.
(And I like meetecho=E2=80=99s current ability to rudely grab the Mic, =
which is a bit like =E2=80=9Cpoint of order=E2=80=9D in the traditional =
meeting organization.)

I=E2=80=99m not sure we need all the above, but it would be a better =
mapping of our meetings to the digital world, and it is exactly what =
makes web meeting software situated software.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 23:24:25 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: Ted Lemon 
Cc: Bob Hinden , 108attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [108attendees] Introducing the Meetecho Virtual Hum tool
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a) click response options:
   
    no-hum / hand-down         (0.00)
    weak hum                   (0.25)
    medium-hum / hand wiggling (0.50)
    strong-hum                 (0.75)
    max-hum / hand up          (1.00)

b) real-time reporting of time-elapsed/#responses/#attendees

b) chair click: to stop after whatever time she thinks appropriate
   reports (to all):

     #responses / avg-responses / sum-responses  (#attendees / time-elapsed)

Is this getting us closer to having a single report mechanism that solves
all queries we want ? At least hum and show-of-hands ?

For counting hands up, we want sum-responses, for humming we want average

Cheers
    Toerless

P.S.: i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right size drink,
i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning of the different  italian volume levels.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 05:07:17PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2020, at 4:54 PM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
> > No, of course not.   However, we might come to a different conclusion if only a few people respond, rather than many.
> > I think we need something similar for the virtual hum.
> 
> I think you are right.
> 


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From: "Pete Resnick" 
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On 29 Jul 2020, at 15:56, Carsten Bormann wrote:

> On 2020-07-29, at 22:42, Pete Resnick  wrote:
>>
>> The Floor
>
> Makes a lot of sense.
>
> As a refinement, I would offer that there is a difference between the 
> Mic line (where you are seen and speaking, but can naturally take 
> turns), and taking over the projector (of which there is only one in 
> the room).  So granting someone the Mic doesn’t mean that they 
> should be (willfully or accidentally) replacing the shared screen.

I agree. I thought about adding something about sharing the screen 
(i.e., projecting a presentation), but because you really only want one 
screen shared at a time, it seemed like a pretty separate function. I 
think something like the "presentation token" being handed to (or taken 
away from) anyone on the Floor by the chair is the right concept.

> That is even more important as there
> are usually three roles on the floor:
>
> — Chairs
> — Presenters
> — Head of mic line, plus possible someone standing there with you as 
> a counterpoint

Yes, though I think it is reasonable in some groups (as I have seen us 
do in person) to have between 2 and 4 people who are neither the 
Presenter or the Chair in a colloquy on the floor about some particular 
point. I like the UI of having a Floor where any number of people (as 
granted or tolerated by the chair) can all have their mics and videos on 
at their discretion and engage in a discussion.

Zoom has their "webinar" concept, where there are three similar 
categories, but they are much more constrained than MeetEcho (which is 
one of the reasons that I like MeetEcho for our purposes).

> Apart from that (important) detail, I think that moving the interface 
> from thinking in terms of media streams (which are the natural way of 
> thinking for a Meetecho developer) to actual application concepts such 
> as “The Floor”, “The presenter” (what a meeting participant 
> has in mind) makes sense.

Exactly my thought. "Media Streams" is a developer's concept. It mostly 
(and accidentally) corresponds to the floor, but it makes the UI a bit 
weird.

> Usually each participant can decide at the start of the meeting 
> whether they want to be seen, and can get the camera access dialog 
> behind them (same for mic access dialog).
> The chairs can decide whether they want to have a gallery view (rare, 
> but sometimes useful) or the usual screen-sharing one for the segment 
> of the meeting.

Yep.

> (And I like meetecho’s current ability to rudely grab the Mic, which 
> is a bit like “point of order” in the traditional meeting 
> organization.)

Or the document editor who has to come up to the mic to answer the 
question. Or the more "exuberant" of us who run up to the mic to make 
our very important point on this topic. :-)

> I’m not sure we need all the above, but it would be a better mapping 
> of our meetings to the digital world, and it is exactly what makes web 
> meeting software situated software.
>
> Grüße, Carsten

Yes.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best


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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 21:44:17 -0500
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009caafd05ab9fa781"
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something else?)
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--0000000000009caafd05ab9fa781
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I'm working on a draft and getting some weird behavior when running IDnits
and trying to submit the draft.

In IDnits, I'm getting

  -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days in the future.  Is this
     intentional?

and that seems to be the Expiration date in the draft (so, I'm confused).

I'm also getting

  -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of
     draft-irtf-panrg-questions is -04, but you're referring to -05.

but the datatracker DOES have
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-irtf-panrg-questions-05.txt

I thought I should let someone know.

Best,

Spencer

--0000000000009caafd05ab9fa781
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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I'm working on a draft and getting some weird behavior=
 when running IDnits and trying to submit the draft. 

In IDnits, I&#=
39;m getting 

=C2=A0 -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days=
 in the future.=C2=A0 Is this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intentional?

an=
d that seems to be the Expiration date in the draft (so, I'm confused).=
 

I'm also getting

=C2=A0 -- Unexpected draft version: Th=
e latest known version of 
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-irtf-panrg-question=
s is -04, but you're referring to -05.


I thought I should let someone know.
=


Best,

Spencer


--0000000000009caafd05ab9fa781--


From nobody Wed Jul 29 20:37:11 2020
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something else?)
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On 2020-07-30, at 04:44, Spencer Dawkins at IETF =
 wrote:
>=20
> I'm working on a draft and getting some weird behavior when running =
IDnits and trying to submit the draft.=20
>=20
> In IDnits, I'm getting=20
>=20
>   -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days in the future.  Is =
this
>      intentional?
>=20
> and that seems to be the Expiration date in the draft (so, I'm =
confused).=20

Yes, I am seeing this behavior for my v3 drafts.

> I'm also getting
>=20
>   -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of=20
>      draft-irtf-panrg-questions is -04, but you're referring to -05.
>=20
> but the datatracker DOES have =
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-irtf-panrg-questions-05.txt

It seems the idnits downloading and caching approach is somewhat =
brittle=E2=80=A6
Idnits is an amazing script held together by spit and scotch tape.
I think it is waiting for a full rewrite=E2=80=A6=20
Until then, it will stay a little quirky.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



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From: Jonathan Morton 
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To: Toerless Eckert 
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> On 30 Jul, 2020, at 12:24 am, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>=20
> P.S.: i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right =
size drink,
> i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning of the different  =
italian volume levels.

Those are all familiar to me as a trained musician; traditional music =
scoring uses Italian terms quite extensively.  The only one that isn't =
very common in music is "niente", whose meaning is obvious from context =
as "silence".

 - Jonathan Morton=


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From: Toerless Eckert 
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On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 05:07:32PM +0300, Jonathan Morton wrote:
> > On 30 Jul, 2020, at 12:24 am, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> > 
> > P.S.: i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right size drink,
> > i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning of the different  italian volume levels.
> 
> Those are all familiar to me as a trained musician; traditional music scoring uses Italian terms quite extensively.  The only one that isn't very common in music is "niente", whose meaning is obvious from context as "silence".

Definitely, its a very nice idea, and as long as you're alwys shown where on the scale
each of the word ranges, its a fun way to learn these words. Only designs assuming you
know them upfront would be problematic.

E.g.: If i would read in meeting notes without further help "draft A was hummed at crescendo",
 "draft B was hummed at fortissimo", ...please go figure... ;-))

Cheers
   Toerless


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Cc: Toerless Eckert , Bob Hinden , Ted Lemon , Tools Team Discussion , 108attendees@ietf.org
To: Jonathan Morton 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [108attendees] Introducing the Meetecho Virtual Hum tool
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> On 31/07/2020, at 2:07 AM, Jonathan Morton  =
wrote:
>=20
>> On 30 Jul, 2020, at 12:24 am, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>>=20
>> P.S.: i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right =
size drink,
>> i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning of the different  =
italian volume levels.
>=20
> Those are all familiar to me as a trained musician; traditional music =
scoring uses Italian terms quite extensively.  The only one that isn't =
very common in music is "niente", whose meaning is obvious from context =
as "silence".

i think niente is slightly more nuanced than that - soft sound that =
fades away.  Hence the use of niente for a hum where just two people hum =
softly or one person hums loudly, as well as a silent hum.

Jay

>=20
> - Jonathan Morton
> --=20
> 108attendees mailing list
> 108attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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On 31/07/2020, at 2:07 AM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:

On 30 Jul, 2020, at =
12:24 am, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

P.S.:=
 i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right size =
drink,
i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning =
of the different  italian volume levels.

Those are all familiar to me as a =
trained musician; traditional music scoring uses Italian terms quite =
extensively.  The only one that isn't very common in music is =
"niente", whose meaning is obvious from context as "silence".

i =
think niente is slightly more nuanced than that - soft sound that fades =
away.  Hence the use of niente for a hum where just two people hum =
softly or one person hums loudly, as well as a silent hum.

Jay


 - Jonathan =
Morton
-- 
108attendees mailing list
108attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

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From: "Don Fedyk" 
To: "'Jay Daley'" , "'Jonathan Morton'" 
Cc: "'Ted Lemon'" , "'Toerless Eckert'" , "'Bob Hinden'" , "'Tools Team Discussion'" , <108attendees@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [108attendees] Introducing the Meetecho Virtual Hum tool
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It seems to me the control for this should have at least 2 inputs.

a.	I have read the draft / or I'm active participant in this group
b.	I'm humming or silent. 

The response should show a count of a) and a relative sound related to
(b/a)%. 

I think the tool is assuming a) is the whole room. In a smallish group (~40)
where there are 6 experts and they all hum it may barely register. 

In a live room this is easier.  

Also the 30 second count down seems to limit the number of polls in groups
where I saw it used. I'd just let indicators be updated every 5 seconds
until the chair closes it.


Cheers

Don 

 

From: 108attendees <108attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jay Daley
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 10:24 AM
To: Jonathan Morton 
Cc: Ted Lemon ; Toerless Eckert ; Bob
Hinden ; Tools Team Discussion
; 108attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [108attendees] Introducing the Meetecho Virtual Hum tool

 

 





On 31/07/2020, at 2:07 AM, Jonathan Morton  > wrote:

 

On 30 Jul, 2020, at 12:24 am, Toerless Eckert  > wrote:

P.S.: i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right size
drink,
i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning of the different  italian
volume levels.


Those are all familiar to me as a trained musician; traditional music
scoring uses Italian terms quite extensively.  The only one that isn't very
common in music is "niente", whose meaning is obvious from context as
"silence".

 

i think niente is slightly more nuanced than that - soft sound that fades
away.  Hence the use of niente for a hum where just two people hum softly or
one person hums loudly, as well as a silent hum.

 

Jay






- Jonathan Morton
-- 
108attendees mailing list
108attendees@ietf.org  
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees

 

-- 
Jay Daley

IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org  

 


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It seems =
to me the control for this should have at least 2 =
inputs.
  1. I have read the draft =
/ or I’m active participant in this group
  2. I’m humming or silent. 
The response should show a count of a) and a relative =
sound related to  (b/a)%. 
I =
think the tool is assuming a) is the whole room. In a smallish group =
(~40) where there are 6 experts and they all hum it may barely register. =

In a live room this is easier.  =

Also the 30 second count down seems =
to limit the number of polls in groups where I saw it used. I’d =
just let indicators be updated every 5 seconds until the chair closes =
it.

Cheers
Don 
 
From: 108attendees =
<108attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jay =
Daley
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 10:24 AM
To: =
Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
Cc: Ted Lemon =
<mellon@fugue.com>; Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>; Bob =
Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Tools Team Discussion =
<tools-discuss@ietf.org>; 108attendees@ietf.org
Subject: =
Re: [108attendees] Introducing the Meetecho Virtual Hum =
tool
 
 


On 31/07/2020, at 2:07 AM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> =
wrote:
 
On =
30 Jul, 2020, at 12:24 am, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

P.S.: =
i already fail talking italian at starbucks to order the right size =
drink,
i am not sure i would ever figure out the meaning of the =
different  italian volume levels.

Those are all familiar to me as a trained =
musician; traditional music scoring uses Italian terms quite =
extensively.  The only one that isn't very common in music is =
"niente", whose meaning is obvious from context as =
"silence".
 
i =
think niente is slightly more nuanced than that - soft sound that fades =
away.  Hence the use of niente for a hum where just two people hum =
softly or one person hums loudly, as well as a silent =
hum.
 
Jay


 
-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org
=

 

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From nobody Thu Jul 30 16:58:53 2020
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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 19:58:46 -0400
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Tony Przygienda 
To: Toerless Eckert 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>=20
> How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize =
all possible
> before andd after meeting times

Courteous chairs do not utilize all possible after meeting times, =
especially when they have a session following theirs. And yes, my groups =
have run over on occasion, but we try not to, and we try to clear the =
room afterwards.

Granted that this constraint wouldn=E2=80=99t appear to apply in the =
virtual world (although Jay says otherwise).

=E2=80=94John=

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On =
Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

How is it possible that in a =
physcial meeting we are able to utilize all possible
before andd after meeting =
times

Courteous chairs do not utilize all possible after meeting =
times, especially when they have a session following theirs. And yes, my =
groups have run over on occasion, but we try not to, and we try to clear =
the room afterwards.

Granted that this constraint wouldn=E2=80=99t appear to apply =
in the virtual world (although Jay says otherwise).

=E2=80=94John
=

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From nobody Thu Jul 30 18:42:42 2020
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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 03:42:32 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: "John G. Scudder" 
Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Tony Przygienda 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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John,

I asked on a different thread about any technical reasons for the
necessity to end the sessions but did not receive a reply from meetecho. 

I am primarily concerned about unnecessary technical restrictions,
even if they match the model we had in physcial meetings for official
meeting times.

Your courteousity observation are correct for how we run our schedule
today, but a) we already have good uses for overtime within that courteosity,
and b) i do not like technology to stand in the way of us being able
to experiment and adopt to the virtual environment.

For example, with physical meeting rooms, they are a great informal
place to catch up with work when attendees join early. I am seeing this
regularily in physical IETFs on the first morning and afternoon meetings.
Likewise of course after the meetings, last meeting before lunch or in the
evening. Do we really need to argue overcoming every single unnecessry
technical limitation ?

Do i remember correctly a long time ago in some IETF meeting where the
venue decided to lock rooms outside of official meeting times, even
during lunch time ? This is a bit like that.

Thats just the rear view mirror. I am sure there are more courteous 
options for virtual rooms we have yet to explore.

For example, i am quite unhappy with official meeting time often
not being very productive because it deteriorates just into status
update time. But as chairs i think we fear claiming too much time of
WG attendees. Sp IMHO we as a group need to really think how to facilitate
more effective ad-hoc collab options. And voice/video channls through 
meetecho or webex are IMHO right now something attendees like latch onto
easier than gather.town.  

Cheers
   Toerless

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 07:58:46PM -0400, John G. Scudder wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
> > 
> > How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize all possible
> > before andd after meeting times
> 
> Courteous chairs do not utilize all possible after meeting times, especially when they have a session following theirs. And yes, my groups have run over on occasion, but we try not to, and we try to clear the room afterwards.
> 
> Granted that this constraint wouldn???t appear to apply in the virtual world (although Jay says otherwise).
> 
> ???John

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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Cc: "John G. Scudder" , Tools Team Discussion , Tony Przygienda 
To: Toerless Eckert 
References:  <4F7672D9-91FE-4D0E-ADA0-69EB0C2438A9@ietf.org>      <20200729144816.GB1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <65A462D6-3AD0-4E5F-ABA6-E2915DC7B0EF@bgp.nu> <20200731014232.GP1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho rooms being opened to chairs 10 minutes before sessions would be _really_ helpful
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Toerless

First some background - there are a number of moving parts here that =
each impact each other:

1. The before/after periods for the rooms to be open. =20

2.  The 'structure' of the agenda, which includes
- length of breaks between sessions
- length of the sessions
- overall length of the meeting day

The feedback from the meeting planning survey [1] led to a five day =
compressed format of shorter session length, shorter breaks  shorter =
days and a shorter day than an in-person meeting. =20

3.  Conflicts between sessions.  This is an issue regularly identified =
by participants and significant resources go into assessing and =
preventing conflicts both operationally and in the development of our =
agenda tools.

4.  The resources to help people test/prepare, which includes
- pre-meeting sessions
- in-meeting test room
- pre-session set up time

5.  The sessions management skills of chairs and the support they get to =
develop those.  Training for chairs is an ongoing project and there was =
due to be a one-day training sessions for chairs before 107 that was =
unfortunately cancelled along with other things.


With that in mind, what follows are some of the questions that need to =
be thought through around extending the overrun after a session and, in =
particular, what impact will that have if it goes over the preparatory =
time for the next set of sessions or even the session time? =20

- Does the agenda need to be structured to ensure that there are no =
conflicts from one session to the next, not just between parallel =
sessions?
- What impact will that have on the other sessions if people are unable =
to prepare?
- Is this going to be sufficiently common that the break needs to be =
extended and if so then is the working day extended or are the session =
lengths shortened?
- Could the pre-session preparatory times be shortened to allow for a =
longer overrun by expecting people to use the in-meeting test session to =
try things out?
- Should the choice of session lengths at 50/100 minutes be changed to =
better accommodate sessions that might overrun one of those lengths?
- Do the participants perceive the overruns as avoidable with better =
chairing skills?


To summarise, my point is not to say that the current setup is the best =
and cannot be tweaked, but to note that this is not a matter of just =
turning one knob up to 11 to fix a specific issue as that approach can =
have unintended consequences elsewhere.

Jay


[1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf108-survey-results-informed-planning/


> On 31/07/2020, at 1:42 PM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>=20
> John,
>=20
> I asked on a different thread about any technical reasons for the
> necessity to end the sessions but did not receive a reply from =
meetecho.=20
>=20
> I am primarily concerned about unnecessary technical restrictions,
> even if they match the model we had in physcial meetings for official
> meeting times.
>=20
> Your courteousity observation are correct for how we run our schedule
> today, but a) we already have good uses for overtime within that =
courteosity,
> and b) i do not like technology to stand in the way of us being able
> to experiment and adopt to the virtual environment.
>=20
> For example, with physical meeting rooms, they are a great informal
> place to catch up with work when attendees join early. I am seeing =
this
> regularily in physical IETFs on the first morning and afternoon =
meetings.
> Likewise of course after the meetings, last meeting before lunch or in =
the
> evening. Do we really need to argue overcoming every single unnecessry
> technical limitation ?
>=20
> Do i remember correctly a long time ago in some IETF meeting where the
> venue decided to lock rooms outside of official meeting times, even
> during lunch time ? This is a bit like that.
>=20
> Thats just the rear view mirror. I am sure there are more courteous=20
> options for virtual rooms we have yet to explore.
>=20
> For example, i am quite unhappy with official meeting time often
> not being very productive because it deteriorates just into status
> update time. But as chairs i think we fear claiming too much time of
> WG attendees. Sp IMHO we as a group need to really think how to =
facilitate
> more effective ad-hoc collab options. And voice/video channls through=20=

> meetecho or webex are IMHO right now something attendees like latch =
onto
> easier than gather.town. =20
>=20
> Cheers
>   Toerless
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 07:58:46PM -0400, John G. Scudder wrote:
>> On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> How is it possible that in a physcial meeting we are able to utilize =
all possible
>>> before andd after meeting times
>>=20
>> Courteous chairs do not utilize all possible after meeting times, =
especially when they have a session following theirs. And yes, my groups =
have run over on occasion, but we try not to, and we try to clear the =
room afterwards.
>>=20
>> Granted that this constraint wouldn???t appear to apply in the =
virtual world (although Jay says otherwise).
>>=20
>> ???John
>=20
> --=20
> ---
> tte@cs.fau.de
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_A1BFED31-FC5F-4AE4-AA40-E76BC62CA41F
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Toerless

First some background - there are a number of moving =
parts here that each impact each other:

1. The before/after periods for the rooms to be =
open.  

2.  The =
'structure' of the agenda, which includes
- length of breaks =
between sessions
- length of the sessions
- overall =
length of the meeting day

The =
feedback from the meeting planning survey [1] led to a five day =
compressed format of shorter session length, shorter breaks =
 shorter days and a shorter day than an in-person meeting. =
 

3. =
 Conflicts between sessions.  This is an issue regularly =
identified by participants and significant resources go into assessing =
and preventing conflicts both operationally and in the development of =
our agenda tools.

4.  The =
resources to help people test/prepare, which includes
- =
pre-meeting sessions
- in-meeting test room
- =
pre-session set up time

5.  The =
sessions management skills of chairs and the support they get to develop =
those.  Training for chairs is an ongoing project and there was due =
to be a one-day training sessions for chairs before 107 that was =
unfortunately cancelled along with other things.


With that in mind, what =
follows are some of the questions that need to be thought through around =
extending the overrun after a session and, in particular, what impact =
will that have if it goes over the preparatory time for the next =
set of sessions or even the session time?  

- Does the agenda need to be structured to ensure =
that there are no conflicts from one session to the next, not just =
between parallel sessions?
- What impact will that have on the =
other sessions if people are unable to prepare?
- Is this =
going to be sufficiently common that the break needs to be extended and =
if so then is the working day extended or are the session lengths =
shortened?
- Could the pre-session preparatory times be =
shortened to allow for a longer overrun by expecting people to use the =
in-meeting test session to try things out?
- Should the choice =
of session lengths at 50/100 minutes be changed to better accommodate =
sessions that might overrun one of those lengths?
- Do =
the participants perceive the overruns as avoidable with better chairing =
skills?


To summarise, my point is not to say that the =
current setup is the best and cannot be tweaked, but to note that this =
is not a matter of just turning one knob up to 11 to fix a specific =
issue as that approach can have unintended consequences =
elsewhere.

Jay




On 31/07/2020, at 1:42 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> =
wrote:

John,

I asked on a different =
thread about any technical reasons for the
necessity to =
end the sessions but did not receive a reply from meetecho. 

I am primarily concerned about unnecessary =
technical restrictions,
even if they match the model we =
had in physcial meetings for official
meeting times.

Your courteousity observation are correct for =
how we run our schedule
today, but a) we already have good =
uses for overtime within that courteosity,
and b) i do not =
like technology to stand in the way of us being able
to =
experiment and adopt to the virtual environment.

For example, with physical meeting rooms, they are a great =
informal
place to catch up with work when attendees join =
early. I am seeing this
regularily in physical IETFs on =
the first morning and afternoon meetings.
Likewise of =
course after the meetings, last meeting before lunch or in the
evening. Do we really need to argue overcoming every single =
unnecessry
technical limitation ?

Do i remember correctly a long time ago in some IETF meeting =
where the
venue decided to lock rooms outside of official =
meeting times, even
during lunch time ? This is a bit like =
that.

Thats just the rear view mirror. I am =
sure there are more courteous 
options for virtual rooms =
we have yet to explore.

For example, i am =
quite unhappy with official meeting time often
not being =
very productive because it deteriorates just into status
update time. But as chairs i think we fear claiming too much =
time of
WG attendees. Sp IMHO we as a group need to really =
think how to facilitate
more effective ad-hoc collab =
options. And voice/video channls through 
meetecho or =
webex are IMHO right now something attendees like latch onto
easier than gather.town.  

Cheers
   Toerless

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 07:58:46PM -0400, John G. Scudder =
wrote:
On Jul 29, =
2020, at 10:48 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

How is it possible that in a =
physcial meeting we are able to utilize all possible
before =
andd after meeting times

Courteous chairs do not utilize all possible after meeting =
times, especially when they have a session following theirs. And yes, my =
groups have run over on occasion, but we try not to, and we try to clear =
the room afterwards.

Granted that this =
constraint wouldn???t appear to apply in the virtual world (although Jay =
says otherwise).

???John

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and =
mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at =
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to =
datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report =
tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

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Hi,

I just created the #codesprint channel on the IETF slack, for the =
obvious purpose of codesprint-related discussions.

(And I did ask a question there that I need help with...)

Lars

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Subject: [Tools-discuss] SHMOO materials not showing in Meetecho
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Hi,

For this morning=E2=80=99s shmoo meeting, there are slides available in =
the datatracker. But if you click the materials button in Meetecho, it =
says there are no slides.

Thanks,

Ben.=


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Hi,

I just jointed early the 6man session that I will be co-chairing.

I am getting "this room is still closed=E2=80=9D.

It would be nice if in this time before the meeting, I could be verify =
that my audio and video are working locally.   I have had some issues =
with Crome not seeing both of my cameras.

Bob


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From nobody Fri Jul 31 05:48:59 2020
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Should open 10 minutes before meeting, 2 mins now..
On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 05:37:26AM -0700, Bob Hinden wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just jointed early the 6man session that I will be co-chairing.
> 
> I am getting "this room is still closed???.
> 
> It would be nice if in this time before the meeting, I could be verify that my audio and video are working locally.   I have had some issues with Crome not seeing both of my cameras.
> 
> Bob
> 



> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 23:01:41 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Materials on Meetecho and Agenda pages
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.html shows a nice popup with agenda and materials.
Meetecho shows a "tab" with agenda and materials.

Except that these two pages don't show everything.  That has been a constant problem all week.  These two places are quite accessible, but they are also not very useful.  To find the slides, you need to go to: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/$wg to find all of the slides for the session.


From nobody Fri Jul 31 06:26:03 2020
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On 2020-07-29, at 18:25, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>=20
> Pre-roll mic/cam for people who are in the queue.  Tell them when what =
the server sees is not healthy.  You can then switch them on immediately =
when the access is granted.

And that seems to be really necessary, as some participants seem to have =
5-10 seconds of latency from being accepted to media actually flowing.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Hi Martin,


On 2020-07-31 15:01, Martin Thomson wrote:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.html shows a nice
> popup with agenda and materials. Meetecho shows a "tab" with agenda
> and materials.
>=20
> Except that these two pages don't show everything. That has been a
> constant problem all week. These two places are quite accessible, but
> they are also not very useful. To find the slides, you need to go to:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/$wg to find all of
> the slides for the session.

This sounds like a bug to me.  I'd like one or more examples illustrating=

the issue, in order to debug it.


Best regards,

	Henrik



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From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Henrik Levkowetz , Martin Thomson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Materials on Meetecho and Agenda pages
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From: Bob Hinden 
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FYI

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Bob Hinden 
> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Access to test audio and video
> Date: July 31, 2020 at 6:59:33 AM PDT
> To: "Salz, Rich" 
> Cc: Bob Hinden 
>=20
> Rich,
>=20
>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:52 AM, Salz, Rich  wrote:
>>=20
>> How early?  Supposed to open 10 mins before
>=20
> I should have been clearer, I wanted to be able to verify that =
Meetecho is seeing my audio and video devices locally.   I wasn=E2=80=99t =
asking for network access.
>=20
> Other conferencing solutions allow selection of audio and video =
devices (and testing of them) before joining the active session.  =
Meetecho currently only allows this when the session starts.
>=20
> Bob
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 7/31/20, 8:37 AM, "Bob Hinden"  =
wrote:
>>=20
>>   Hi,
>>=20
>>   I just jointed early the 6man session that I will be co-chairing.
>>=20
>>   I am getting "this room is still closed=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>>   It would be nice if in this time before the meeting, I could be =
verify that my audio and video are working locally.   I have had some =
issues with Crome not seeing both of my cameras.
>>=20
>>   Bob
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: =
Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Subject: =
Re: =
[Tools-discuss] Access to test audio and video
Date: =
July 31, 2020 at 6:59:33 AM =
PDT
To: =
"Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: =
Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>

Rich,

On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:52 =
AM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

How early?  Supposed to open 10 mins before

I should have been clearer, I =
wanted to be able to verify that Meetecho is seeing my audio and video =
devices locally.   I wasn=E2=80=99t asking for network =
access.

Other conferencing solutions allow =
selection of audio and video devices (and testing of them) before =
joining the active session.  Meetecho currently only allows this =
when the session starts.

Bob



=EF=BB=BFOn 7/31/20, 8:37 AM, "Bob Hinden" =
<bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

   Hi,

   I =
just jointed early the 6man session that I will be co-chairing.

   I am getting "this room is still =
closed=E2=80=9D.

   It would be =
nice if in this time before the meeting, I could be verify that my audio =
and video are working locally.   I have had some issues with =
Crome not seeing both of my cameras.

 =
  Bob




=

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From: Ted Lemon 
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To: Bob Hinden 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Access to test audio and video
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On Jul 31, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
>> Other conferencing solutions allow selection of audio and video =
devices (and testing of them) before joining the active session.  =
Meetecho currently only allows this when the session starts.

Worse, as a participant, you don=E2=80=99t know if your audio is working =
until you=E2=80=99ve been granted permission to speak. This is really =
bad, and has prevented me from speaking at the mic several times.


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On =
Jul 31, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Other conferencing solutions allow =
selection of audio and video devices (and testing of them) before =
joining the active session.  Meetecho currently only allows this =
when the session starts.

Worse, as a participant, you don=E2=80=99t =
know if your audio is working until you=E2=80=99ve been granted =
permission to speak. This is really bad, and has prevented me from =
speaking at the mic several times.

=

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> On Jul 31, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Ted Lemon  wrote:
>=20
> On Jul 31, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Bob Hinden  wrote:
>>> Other conferencing solutions allow selection of audio and video =
devices (and testing of them) before joining the active session.  =
Meetecho currently only allows this when the session starts.
>=20
> Worse, as a participant, you don=E2=80=99t know if your audio is =
working until you=E2=80=99ve been granted permission to speak. This is =
really bad, and has prevented me from speaking at the mic several times.

Good point, it would also be helpful if one could test their audio (and =
video?) to the Meetecho server without having an active session going =
on.

Bob



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From: "Salz, Rich" 
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Thread-Topic: [irsg] IETF 108 session chair Meetecho testing
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From: Tom Pusateri 
In-Reply-To: <4E8C6656-0A18-4A4F-9ED5-19B3F222D075@eggert.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 15:13:36 -0400
Cc: Tools Team Discussion 
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References: <4E8C6656-0A18-4A4F-9ED5-19B3F222D075@eggert.org>
To: Lars Eggert 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] #codesprint slack channel
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I don=E2=80=99t need another thing to join. Is this archived somewhere? =
Why not use the mailing list?=20

Tom

> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:36 AM, Lars Eggert  wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I just created the #codesprint channel on the IETF slack, for the =
obvious purpose of codesprint-related discussions.
>=20
> (And I did ask a question there that I need help with...)
>=20
> Lars
> ___________________________________________________________
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> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley)
To: Tom Pusateri 
Cc: lars@eggert.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Tom Pusateri  writes:
> I don't need another thing to join. Is this archived somewhere? Why
> not use the mailing list?

Well, a Slack channel is better for real-time discussions among
participants *during* a code sprint.

Dale


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From: Tom Pusateri 
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Cc: Tom Pusateri , tools-discuss@ietf.org
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To: worley@ariadne.com
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My email is real-time and it's archived.

> On Jul 31, 2020, at 10:50 PM, worley@ariadne.com wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFTom Pusateri  writes:
>> I don't need another thing to join. Is this archived somewhere? Why
>> not use the mailing list?
>=20
> Well, a Slack channel is better for real-time discussions among
> participants *during* a code sprint.
>=20
> Dale
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org