From nobody Thu Oct 1 00:43:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EA53A0DEB; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 00:43:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hTft9rxOShLV; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 00:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B74C3A0DE9; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 00:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.11] (unknown [124.104.122.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1C01631F980; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:43:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Jay Daley , rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <19f2fc69-b31c-62e5-9a46-4cfc299d6f84@pi.nu> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:42:47 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 07:43:36 -0000 Jay, while I can understand that it is "a good thing" to understand what formats and tools is used to author I-Ds, it does not fully answer the question why this survey is done. Once we know "formats and tools" what will this be used for? /Loa On 30/09/2020 10:58, Jay Daley wrote: > We are planning to send out a survey on I-D authoring tools to authors and wider to provide information for a number of groups including RSOC, Tools Team, Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and the LLC. The proposed question plan is below and we would welcome any feedback. In particular: > > - are all the important questions asked? > - are all the key tools / processes mentioned? > - is the language clear including for those for whom English is not their first language? > > thanks in advance > Jay > > > # Question Plan > > [PAGE] > Introduction > > [HELPTEXT] > Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent to everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. > > We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author I-Ds, from drafting to submission. > > In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or non-use) of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication format for RFCs on 16 September 2019. > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds not versions of the same I-D)? > If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the details. > • 0 > • 1-5 > • 6-10 > • 11-20 > • 21-50 > • 51+ > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new draft and a new version) to the Datatracker? > Items > • 0 > • 1-10 > • 11-20 > • 21-50 > • 50-100 > • 101+ > Scale > • In total > • Last 2 years (Since September 2018) > • Last year (since September 2019) > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > How many RFCs have you authored? > • 0 > • 1-5 > • 6-10 > • 11-20 > • 21-50 > • 51+ > > > [PAGE] > Drafting to submission > > [LOGIC] > Only get here if they have authored an I-D. > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? (Ignore any you don’t know about) > Items > • Plain text using no markup > • Plain text using a different output process > • Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter > • Markdown using the mmark converter > • Markdown using the draftr converter > • Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter > • Markdown using a different output process > • XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe > • XML using a different output process > • AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) converter > • AsciiDoc using a different output process > • TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc > • TeX / LaTeX using a different output process > • nroff using the Nroff Edit editor > • nroff using nroff2xml template > • nroff using a different output process > • Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch’s Word Template (RFC5385) > • Microsoft Word rich text using a different output process (This means specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will recognise, it does not mean using this an editor for one of the other formats) > • Other format (Only use this option if you author in a different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you author in and what output process you use] > Scale > • Always > • Very often > • Sometimes > • Rarely > • Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > If you answered “a different output process” in the question above then please specify what it is? > > [QUESTION - Checkboxes] > How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply) > • I researched the tools > • I decided on my authoring format first and then chose a tool that uses that > • I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF meeting > • Another author chose for me > • The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted in one of these tools > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-D? (Ignore any you don’t know about) > Items > • A copy of a previous I-D / RFC > • A template from https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/ > • A template that came with my chosen authoring tool/process > • My own > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > • Always > • Very often > • Sometimes > • Rarely > • Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following additional authoring tools? (Ignore any you don’t know about) > Items > • bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml references > • bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown > • Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences to two spaces > • id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML > • idnits to check a draft before submission > • idspell to check a draft for spelling errors > • rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML into another output format > • RFC dependency checker > • rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts > • svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance > • xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML > Scale > • Always > • Very often > • Sometimes > • Rarely > • Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Checkboxes] > How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) > • Locally > • On a private hosted server > • On an IETF public web service > • On a third-party public web service > • Using CI/CD with GitHub > • Using CI/CD with Gitlab > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > > > [PAGE] > XML v3 > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format? > • Excellent > • Good > • Fair > • Poor > • None > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XML format? > Items > • Ease of use > • Features > • Documentation > • Tools support > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > • Very satisfied > • Satisfied > • Neutral > • Dissatisfied > • Very dissatisfied > • N/A > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format to you? > Items > • Ease of use > • Features > • Documentation > • Tools support > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > • Very important > • Important > • Neutral > • Unimportant > • Very unimportant > • N/A > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format? > > > [PAGE] > State of the current authoring tools landscape > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring tools? > Items > • Ease of use > • Integration with IETF processes > • Support for the full range of tags / metadata > • Control of output > • Support of various output formats > • Speed at which new features are added > • Overall quality > • Choice of different tools > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > • Very satisfied > • Satisfied > • Neutral > • Dissatisfied > • Very dissatisfied > • N/A > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to you? > Items > • Ease of use > • Integration with IETF processes > • Support for the full range of tags / metadata > • Control of output > • Support of various output formats > • Speed at which new features are added > • Overall quality > • Choice of different tools > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > • Very important > • Important > • Neutral > • Not important > • Not at all important > • N/A > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts? > • Strongly agree > • Agree > • Neutral > • Disagree > • Strongly disagree > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following authoring formats? > Items > • Markdown > • XML > • WYSIWYG > • Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > • Very important > • Important > • Neutral > • Not important > • Not at all important > • N/A > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? > > > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Thu Oct 1 07:03:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6303A1093; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:03:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sg7OxhYTvMFr; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36AEF3A108D; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08DF389E8; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id CQDb52OqZlCt; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C353389D5; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90644CC; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:03:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , Randy Bush , rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 14:03:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: >> On 1/10/2020, at 2:27 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> >>> I=E2=80=99ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific functio= nality >>> (either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D authoring. >> >> i guess you have never met emacs' xml mode > I wouldn=E2=80=99t describe that as specific functionality to support= I-D > authoring. An example of the what I mean is the xml2rfc-xxe plugin to > XMLMind, which is maintained by some IETF volunteers. I think that there is a distinction between using notepad to edit XML, vs you used vi/emacs/eclipse/textmate with an XML-specific (XML validating) or RFC2629-specific editing mode. emacs' xml-mode is a significantly better experience than emacs in text-mod= e. (emacs defaults to 'docbook' mode for .xml, which is actually much worse th= an text-mode) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl914aoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWf/QgAhYyPT/IUW5UXiykiuXkpBh9Y5DcZZVh8hhF6meunDCnCErfjWvdZGTz4 06fFKUN/yVw9LCGXHZ78GvbYzLqtfiJGSiwzC6ykagFHLkIttZ1OEZcbuyTxMReE t/RbZVA2rgXvtRoe25NwGFgYwylZI+QgLBGZqnLwTgwHWmv+AvUapqF5l7lUuHjA 1tdDiawVYLucdIv4j9z/HlaFIIilOJP0uqdNi3b0QlXuTHWTx1TkHPpneesogdXh Uu6B34/lPE3A9pWvhuCIw83v2Yla7RD7W/CUC8W4ykrg1DD/q40pPEoaFtvILpKU P8kdQk1sKzbs5nmWrNvlC6lu1XOVUw== =xm1T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 07:43:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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b=t9YtMtCh+k5LEEp8Vm/Yz93xUGSJFqDRFwiLC1d4rsL7FXPiGfG1CGRN6Glfk7FbqRw9u1Hy+fcpXNKEO+yCP3N/+J6iFJo/aLsQCtUjnv9gkDgglBZ0UK/P2VLPIcWPkzxzPEBs7hw5pJURIUZhHCnCQHatTQ3xY8hJ+y1N4oQ= Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:ea::31) by MN2PR11MB3790.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:f6::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3433.32; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:43:11 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::119:f851:5860:da95]) by MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::119:f851:5860:da95%4]) with mapi id 15.20.3433.032; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:43:11 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings Thread-Index: AQHWmAAphRpAEvgfDUyjr08nr9CD46mC0UGw Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:42:41 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:41:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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From nobody Thu Oct 1 07:51:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2A03A10B9 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:51:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWsbroCjArgc; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 365493A10AD; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:51:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7E49B18F-04C5-41AE-BC7B-DCF1EBA5DB2E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 03:51:07 +1300 In-Reply-To: <19017.1601561002@localhost> Cc: Randy Bush , rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion To: Michael Richardson References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 14:51:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7E49B18F-04C5-41AE-BC7B-DCF1EBA5DB2E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 2/10/2020, at 3:03 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Jay Daley wrote: >>> On 1/10/2020, at 2:27 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific = functionality >>>> (either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D authoring. >>>=20 >>> i guess you have never met emacs' xml mode >=20 >> I wouldn=E2=80=99t describe that as specific functionality to support = I-D >> authoring. An example of the what I mean is the xml2rfc-xxe plugin = to >> XMLMind, which is maintained by some IETF volunteers. >=20 > I think that there is a distinction between using notepad to edit XML, > vs you used vi/emacs/eclipse/textmate with an XML-specific (XML = validating) > or RFC2629-specific editing mode. Is there an RFC2629-specific editing mode? If so then I want to capture = that. If all they are doing is using something like the RelaxNG schema = to validate against then that should be captured (I may need to add the = RelaxNG schema to the list of other tools). Jay >=20 > emacs' xml-mode is a significantly better experience than emacs in = text-mode. > (emacs defaults to 'docbook' mode for .xml, which is actually much = worse than text-mode) >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_7E49B18F-04C5-41AE-BC7B-DCF1EBA5DB2E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 2/10/2020, at 3:03 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
On = 1/10/2020, at 2:27 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve only = mentioned an editor where it has specific functionality
(either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D = authoring.

i guess you have = never met emacs' xml mode

I wouldn=E2=80=99t = describe that as specific functionality to support I-D
authoring.  An example of the what I mean is the = xml2rfc-xxe plugin to
XMLMind, which is maintained by some = IETF volunteers.

I think that = there is a distinction between using notepad to edit XML,
vs= you used vi/emacs/eclipse/textmate with an XML-specific (XML = validating)
or RFC2629-specific editing mode.

Is = there an RFC2629-specific editing mode?  If so then I want to = capture that.  If all they are doing is using something like the = RelaxNG schema to validate against then that should be captured (I may = need to add the RelaxNG schema to the list of other = tools).

Jay


emacs' xml-mode is a significantly better = experience than emacs in text-mode.
(emacs defaults to = 'docbook' mode for .xml, which is actually much worse than = text-mode)


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T= consulting )
=           Sandelman = Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_7E49B18F-04C5-41AE-BC7B-DCF1EBA5DB2E-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 07:53:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0033A10B9 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WULBXs0cCO6T; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9F6E3A10BA; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 07:53:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <3727370E-84BD-4EC4-9B16-77FB8CBCA918@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ED41CE15-EE79-4B0C-908F-70BB3BB21AE0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 03:53:13 +1300 In-Reply-To: <19f2fc69-b31c-62e5-9a46-4cfc299d6f84@pi.nu> Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion To: Loa Andersson References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <19f2fc69-b31c-62e5-9a46-4cfc299d6f84@pi.nu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 14:53:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ED41CE15-EE79-4B0C-908F-70BB3BB21AE0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Loa There are three groups that can use the output of this survey for their = work: RSOC, Tools Team and Tools Architecture and Strategy Team. It=E2=80= =99s up to them how to use it but having a sound evidential basis on = which to act is preferable to the current situation. Jay > On 1/10/2020, at 8:42 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: >=20 > Jay, >=20 > while I can understand that it is "a good thing" to understand what = formats and tools is used to author I-Ds, it does not fully answer the = question why this survey is done. >=20 > Once we know "formats and tools" what will this be used for? >=20 > /Loa >=20 > On 30/09/2020 10:58, Jay Daley wrote: >> We are planning to send out a survey on I-D authoring tools to = authors and wider to provide information for a number of groups = including RSOC, Tools Team, Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and = the LLC. The proposed question plan is below and we would welcome any = feedback. In particular: >> - are all the important questions asked? >> - are all the key tools / processes mentioned? >> - is the language clear including for those for whom English is not = their first language? >> thanks in advance >> Jay >> # Question Plan >> [PAGE] >> Introduction >> [HELPTEXT] >> Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent = to everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five = years and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. >> We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author = I-Ds, from drafting to submission. >> In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or = non-use) of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication = format for RFCs on 16 September 2019. >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different = I-Ds not versions of the same I-D)? >> If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the = details. >> =E2=80=A2 0 >> =E2=80=A2 1-5 >> =E2=80=A2 6-10 >> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >> =E2=80=A2 51+ >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new = draft and a new version) to the Datatracker? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 0 >> =E2=80=A2 1-10 >> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >> =E2=80=A2 50-100 >> =E2=80=A2 101+ >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 In total >> =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018) >> =E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019) >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> How many RFCs have you authored? >> =E2=80=A2 0 >> =E2=80=A2 1-5 >> =E2=80=A2 6-10 >> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >> =E2=80=A2 51+ >> [PAGE] >> Drafting to submission >> [LOGIC] >> Only get here if they have authored an I-D. >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often have you used the following document format(s) and = associated output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring = an I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup >> =E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe >> =E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as = asciidoctor-rfc) converter >> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc >> =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor >> =E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template >> =E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s = Word Template (RFC5385) >> =E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output = process (This means specifically using rich text styles that a = template/convertor will recognise, it does not mean using this an editor = for one of the other formats) >> =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a = different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you = author in and what output process you use] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >> If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the = question above then please specify what it is? >> [QUESTION - Checkboxes] >> How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output = process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply) >> =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools >> =E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose = a tool that uses that >> =E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF = meeting >> =E2=80=A2 Another author chose for me >> =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted = in one of these tools >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an = I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC >> =E2=80=A2 A template from = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/ >> =E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring = tool/process >> =E2=80=A2 My own >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often have you used the following additional authoring tools? = (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml = references >> =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown >> =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences = to two spaces >> =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML >> =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission >> =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors >> =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML into another output = format >> =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker >> =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts >> =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance >> =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >> [QUESTION - Checkboxes] >> How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) >> =E2=80=A2 Locally >> =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server >> =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service >> =E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service >> =E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with GitHub >> =E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with Gitlab >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> [PAGE] >> XML v3 >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format? >> =E2=80=A2 Excellent >> =E2=80=A2 Good >> =E2=80=A2 Fair >> =E2=80=A2 Poor >> =E2=80=A2 None >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 = XML format? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Features >> =E2=80=A2 Documentation >> =E2=80=A2 Tools support >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format = to you? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Features >> =E2=80=A2 Documentation >> =E2=80=A2 Tools support >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very important >> =E2=80=A2 Important >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Unimportant >> =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >> What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML = format? >> [PAGE] >> State of the current authoring tools landscape >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring = tools? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes >> =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata >> =E2=80=A2 Control of output >> =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats >> =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added >> =E2=80=A2 Overall quality >> =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to = you? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes >> =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata >> =E2=80=A2 Control of output >> =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats >> =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added >> =E2=80=A2 Overall quality >> =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very important >> =E2=80=A2 Important >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Not important >> =E2=80=A2 Not at all important >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring = drafts? >> =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree >> =E2=80=A2 Agree >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Disagree >> =E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following = authoring formats? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown >> =E2=80=A2 XML >> =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very important >> =E2=80=A2 Important >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Not important >> =E2=80=A2 Not at all important >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >> Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu = > Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com = > Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_ED41CE15-EE79-4B0C-908F-70BB3BB21AE0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Loa

There are three = groups that can use the output of this survey for their work: RSOC, = Tools Team and Tools Architecture and Strategy Team.  It=E2=80=99s = up to them how to use it but having a sound evidential basis on which to = act is preferable to the current situation.

Jay

On = 1/10/2020, at 8:42 PM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:

Jay,

while I can understand that it = is "a good thing" to understand what formats and tools is used to author = I-Ds, it does not fully answer the question why this survey is = done.

Once we know = "formats and tools" what will this be used for?

/Loa

On 30/09/2020 10:58, Jay Daley = wrote:
We = are planning to send out a survey on I-D authoring tools to authors and = wider to provide information for a number of groups including RSOC, = Tools Team, Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and the LLC.  The = proposed question plan is below and we would welcome any feedback. =  In particular:
- are all the important questions = asked?
- are all the key tools / processes mentioned?
- is the language clear including for those for whom English = is not their first language?
thanks in advance
Jay
# Question Plan
[PAGE]
Introduction
[HELPTEXT]
Thank you = for taking part in this survey.  This survey has been sent to = everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years = and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D.
We are = hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author I-Ds, from = drafting to submission.
In particular, we are hoping to = find out more about the use (or non-use) of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, = which became the publication format for RFCs on 16 September 2019.
[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Approximately, how = many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds not versions of the = same I-D)?
If you need a reminder then your Datatracker = page will have the details.
=E2=80=A2 0
=E2=80=A2 = 1-5
=E2=80=A2 6-10
=E2=80=A2 11-20
=E2=80=A2 = 21-50
=E2=80=A2 51+
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating = Scale]
Approximately, how many times have you submitted a = draft (both a new draft and a new version) to the Datatracker?
Items
=E2=80=A2 0
=E2=80=A2 = 1-10
=E2=80=A2 11-20
=E2=80=A2 = 21-50
=E2=80=A2 50-100
=E2=80=A2 = 101+
Scale
=E2=80=A2 In total
= =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018)
=E2=80=A2 = Last year (since September 2019)
[QUESTION - Multiple = Choice]
How many RFCs have you authored?
=E2=80=A2 = 0
=E2=80=A2 1-5
=E2=80=A2 6-10
=E2=80=A2 = 11-20
=E2=80=A2 21-50
=E2=80=A2 = 51+
[PAGE]
Drafting to submission
[LOGIC]
Only get here if they have authored an = I-D.
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How = often have you used the following document format(s) and associated = output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? = (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
= =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup
=E2=80=A2 = Plain text using a different output process
=E2=80=A2 = Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter
=E2=80=A2 = Markdown using the mmark converter
=E2=80=A2 = Markdown using the draftr converter
=E2=80=A2 = Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter
=E2=80=A2 = Markdown using a different output process
=E2=80=A2 = XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe
=E2=80=A2 = XML using a different output process
=E2=80=A2 = AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) = converter
=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a = different output process
=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx = editor and lyx2rfc
=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a = different output process
=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff = Edit editor
=E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml = template
=E2=80=A2 nroff using a different = output process
=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich = text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template (RFC5385)
=E2=80=A2 = Microsoft Word rich text using a different output process (This means = specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will = recognise, it does not mean using this an editor for one of the other = formats)
=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use = this option if you author in a different format to all of those above) = [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you author in and what output process you = use]
Scale
=E2=80=A2 Always
= =E2=80=A2 Very often
=E2=80=A2 Sometimes
= =E2=80=A2 Rarely
=E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is = scored as 0]
[QUESTION - Comment Box]
If you = answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the question = above then please specify what it is?
[QUESTION - = Checkboxes]
How did you choose the document format(s) and = associated output process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply)
= =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools
=E2=80=A2 = I decided on my authoring format first and then chose a tool that uses = that
=E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an = IETF meeting
=E2=80=A2 Another author chose = for me
=E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already = drafted in one of these tools
=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How = often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-D? = (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
= =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC
=E2=80=A2 = A template from https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/
=E2=80=A2 = A template that came with my chosen authoring tool/process
= =E2=80=A2 My own
=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]
Scale
=E2=80=A2 Always
= =E2=80=A2 Very often
=E2=80=A2 Sometimes
= =E2=80=A2 Rarely
=E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is = scored as 0]
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often have you used the following additional authoring = tools? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
= =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml = references
=E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert = bibxml references into markdown
=E2=80=A2 = Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences to two spaces
= =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML
= =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission
= =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors
= =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML into another output = format
=E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker
=E2=80=A2 = rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts
=E2=80=A2 = svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance
=E2=80=A2 = xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML
Scale
= =E2=80=A2 Always
=E2=80=A2 Very often
= =E2=80=A2 Sometimes
=E2=80=A2 Rarely
= =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]
[QUESTION - Checkboxes]
How do you run your = tools? (Check all that apply)
=E2=80=A2 Locally
= =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server
=E2=80=A2 = On an IETF public web service
=E2=80=A2 On a third-party public = web service
=E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with = GitHub
=E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with Gitlab
=E2=80=A2 = Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
[PAGE]
XML v3
[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
How do you rate = your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format?
=E2=80=A2 = Excellent
=E2=80=A2 Good
=E2=80=A2 = Fair
=E2=80=A2 Poor
=E2=80=A2 None
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied = are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XML format?
Items
=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
= =E2=80=A2 Features
=E2=80=A2 Documentation
= =E2=80=A2 Tools support
=E2=80=A2 = Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
=E2=80=A2 = Very satisfied
=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
= =E2=80=A2 Neutral
=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
= =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
=E2=80=A2 = N/A
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How = important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format to = you?
Items
=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
= =E2=80=A2 Features
=E2=80=A2 Documentation
= =E2=80=A2 Tools support
=E2=80=A2 = Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
=E2=80=A2 = Very important
=E2=80=A2 Important
= =E2=80=A2 Neutral
=E2=80=A2 Unimportant
= =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant
=E2=80=A2 = N/A
[QUESTION - Comment Box]
What more needs = to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format?
[PAGE]
State of the current authoring tools = landscape
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How= satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring = tools?
Items
=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
= =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes
=E2=80=A2 = Support for the full range of tags / metadata
=E2=80=A2 = Control of output
=E2=80=A2 Support of various = output formats
=E2=80=A2 Speed at which new = features are added
=E2=80=A2 Overall quality
= =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools
=E2=80=A2 = Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
=E2=80=A2 = Very satisfied
=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
= =E2=80=A2 Neutral
=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
= =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
=E2=80=A2 = N/A
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How = Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to = you?
Items
=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
= =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes
=E2=80=A2 = Support for the full range of tags / metadata
=E2=80=A2 = Control of output
=E2=80=A2 Support of various = output formats
=E2=80=A2 Speed at which new = features are added
=E2=80=A2 Overall quality
= =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools
=E2=80=A2 = Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
=E2=80=A2 = Very important
=E2=80=A2 Important
= =E2=80=A2 Neutral
=E2=80=A2 Not important
= =E2=80=A2 Not at all important
=E2=80=A2 = N/A
[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Should the = IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts?
= =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree
=E2=80=A2 = Agree
=E2=80=A2 Neutral
=E2=80=A2 = Disagree
=E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree
[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How important = is it for you for any new tool to support the following authoring = formats?
Items
=E2=80=A2 Markdown
= =E2=80=A2 XML
=E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG
= =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
= =E2=80=A2 Very important
=E2=80=A2 = Important
=E2=80=A2 Neutral
= =E2=80=A2 Not important
=E2=80=A2 = Not at all important
=E2=80=A2 N/A
[QUESTION - Comment Box]
Do you have any more = feedback on authoring tools and formats?

-- 

Loa Andersson =             &n= bsp;          email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
Bronze Dragon Consulting =             ph= one: +46 739 81 21 64

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_ED41CE15-EE79-4B0C-908F-70BB3BB21AE0-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 08:18:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3263A117D for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:18:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-wAeVAGftrD for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 922DD3A1157 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id g72so5686131qke.8 for ; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=5S5SNdsgOM/73uwONQbs1+bX6X27PiNpxpykuAjxUak=; b=EIA/7Tv7x5motnE3ktOFgjvihtB5dVCwfGpz8NK77gymtxdg0H4FxISZBqoy/HpR3c iHabbGzJerxwLOfDPG9JFeBuANQF4g9/h+9FuC/J/5jN2axVjB304VN8lpoU2vILmR3G Qn3db3BmirV4uhiEpH00f92LIQEE0bfkuAg/GMPvqF0o4M8+TiGbajYunoNzjfS0AqD+ PUdsQhqOU1IQmxIEd6WFDbEmLpXvmk/y9FtSH8H8K5AakmaRzj0V7XWVpDCj0cIWSIgR JjX/nmJn9AdrGRQOVhGON822EtVP9hDLy8aeAMkFZIXEz3OtOmI24chvFLVsHoQ3GjwR lYhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=5S5SNdsgOM/73uwONQbs1+bX6X27PiNpxpykuAjxUak=; b=UNXMKkHCjL62IPwuhfbFREbKoypAqcJdHkCWu424Ww8KBG07G8mfBxdkMMSdVe4RMl 5Jb88Z/DtyYLgMWkkB7g7vu/gGKKtq2w86lgFP6dC7GpaIFPJ0zjGvWSHjJU8Ey2xdi2 Ode15PosGmyvJk6/+E6bqWBYl2YPVxNX5OT1+Dr2TPfd68gy2XHMGfDpqwxNX5Obr8cT Ug1MuJk7KNsyu0/rso+IkPIQdr1Lccz4Jm8HjNTXiMOQAkAq7ChrRYYMjR6us+im/Meh ILBHJr5tAt1+ovYjizRFRhzQjSRtIayHJvSvkkGb1Jg8weOk2fG4RjFhOO1tgrUGiaeB ZVXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338/s9U1ih5EvTHNtZ4H2qDi5sVgrjHq7vqssfhHPl24j44H6Wr zXXQfQaOLddazQvTTleJCjJhqs2V/6hGFVJr X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyepStg2pl6xNvf4aemRW6gleHPJ/s9fMJ6imy8pQPqFj+uZ3ivPrDowMYs2X0c/IXryp/zSA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:15a6:: with SMTP id f6mr7952960qkk.418.1601565504134; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y7sm7232812qtn.11.2020.10.01.08.18.23 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:18:22 -0400 Message-Id: <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18A373) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 15:18:46 -0000 It might be more effective to trial them sequentially rather than in paralle= l.=20 > On Oct 1, 2020, at 10:33, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFWe are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to g= ain > operational experience and get community feedback about how well these > services meet the need for IETF related chat. >=20 > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) that ma= ny > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem. This is partly due t= o > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client iss= ues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to improve th= e > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative groupchat= > solution. The community has already taken a step on the latter path with t= he > introduction of an IETF Slack space, and we want to ensure that this path i= s > properly explored by widening the range of options to well established > free/open source tools. >=20 > The installs currently have almost no local configuration or customization= . > Over the next few weeks, we will be exploring reconfiguring them to use > datatracker credentials for sign-in, and explore bridging between these > systems, Slack, and Jabber. One consequence of these explorations is that t= here > will likely be times, outside of meetings, when accounts will be disrupte= d or > even removed and will have to be recreated. Initially, we suggest you use a= n > email address for the username on each service. >=20 > We considered running these trials using instances run by the Zulip or Mat= rix > communities. We went with instances operated by the secretariat to learn w= hat > would be needed if the community felt self-hosting chat was important in t= he > long-term. >=20 > The services can be found at matrix-trial1.ietf.org and zulip-trial1.ietf.= org. >=20 > Any matrix client can be used with the trial matrix server. There is also > a web client available at at matrix-trial1.ietf.org. >=20 > Similarly any zulip client can be used with the trial zulip server, which > has a built in web interface. >=20 > We would like feedback on how well each client meets chat needs during > meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, iterims, adhocs, and hall= way > conversations. >=20 > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback received t= o > inform what chat services we provide in the future and how we will operate= > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not inte= nd to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the tri= al > instances as we move forward. >=20 > This does add to the potentially confusing large number of places conversa= tion > might take place. We hope to address that with some level of bridging, at l= east > with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective development communi= ties > that bridging between Zulip and Matrix is unsatisfying since the conversat= ion > models in the two applications are so different. >=20 > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). >=20 > We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may revisit= that > as an option as we continue to gather more feedback. >=20 > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Thu Oct 1 08:48:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7A13A0BF2 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:48:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kx49O_UGfUZC for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1D9E3A0A4F for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C2HZl0M0nzyVy; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:47:59 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:47:58 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623260078.442925-085dad9efa00dc3ab7f3e457da1d1cf8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 15:48:03 -0000 On 2020-10-01, at 16:25, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > matrix-trial1.ietf.org. OMG what is that riot-bot and why does it have to bother me with loud = fake music. (And I also wouldn=E2=80=99t mind if it didn=E2=80=99t lock up my = browser.) You never get a second chance to make a first impression, but this one = is the worst intentionally left impression I have had this decade. Not = relevant for the actual experiment, but still jarring. On to zulip... Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Oct 1 08:52:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277203A0E0D; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZfdcUr0QUXU; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09ED03A0A74; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kO0sf-0007Vd-BH; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 15:52:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:52:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jay Daley Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: <19017.1601561002@localhost> References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 15:52:32 -0000 i started to wonder two things what is all this about? who actually wants this survey and why? and, as you started it, jay, i wonder what toolchain you use to author drafts? randy From nobody Thu Oct 1 08:55:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3965A3A0E0D for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:55:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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Oct 1 09:03:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BCC3A10DC; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocObCdAV4mk2; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C465F3A10DB; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C2Hwl667RzysB; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:03:35 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:03:35 +0200 Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623261015.048697-bf31bb54c702405b278462965b4a540d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:03:40 -0000 On 2020-10-01, at 16:51, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Is there an RFC2629-specific editing mode? If so then I want to = capture that. If all they are doing is using something like the RelaxNG = schema to validate against then that should be captured (I may need to = add the RelaxNG schema to the list of other tools). When I was still using XML, I used emacs=E2=80=99 nxml-mode with the = rfc2629.rnc schema (*). I would expect most emacs-proficient users to arrive there. This is not just about validating, but also being able to choose from = valid next steps. (Unfortunately, nxml-mode never became quite as = efficient for keyboarding XML as previous SGML-modes were.) Basically, you should orthogonalize: =E2=80=94 the authoring format (nroff, RFCXML, markdown, asciidoc, =E2=80=A6= ) - the tool used for editing that authoring format Many of us have been using several tools on a common format. (Much initial use of kramdown-rfc was to generate the tedious XML right = from markdown keyboarding, BTW. !}kramdown-rfc RET, if you use vi.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) Actually, a slightly hacked one, but that was 2009, and I don=E2=80=99= t remember the details. From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:13:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E4D3A0C00 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3QSvhExqw2xV; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D70293A0B93; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:13:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B32E3BA-2254-44FE-A0E7-DEF703BEDF26" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 05:13:00 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion To: Randy Bush References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:13:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5B32E3BA-2254-44FE-A0E7-DEF703BEDF26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 2/10/2020, at 4:52 AM, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 > i started to wonder two things >=20 > what is all this about? who actually wants this survey and why? It started with an action I took in the most recent RSOC meeting to = survey authors to understand choices on draft submission formats because = those directly affect the work of the RPC which in turn affects the SLA = and the contract cost. The adoption of the v3 XML as the RFC = publication format in September 2019 has meant a significant increase in = costs as the RPC has to convert plain text or v2 XML submissions into = v3. In that context I was surprised to hear that a number of people author = in XML and then use xml2rfc to convert to plain text and submit that = plain text I-D. After my first draft it became clear that this had to loop in the tools = teams as the survey could not focus on formats without also covering = tools as the two are so closely linked. >=20 > and, as you started it, jay, i wonder what toolchain you use to author > drafts? The last time I authored a draft was in 2013 and I wrote that in XML = using the OxygenXML commercial XML editor with xml2rfc to validate it. I = don=E2=80=99t remember what format I used to submit it. That draft btw = was all about XML/XSLT. https://datatracker.ietf.org/person/Jay%20Daley Jay >=20 > randy >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_5B32E3BA-2254-44FE-A0E7-DEF703BEDF26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 2/10/2020, at 4:52 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> = wrote:

i started to wonder two things

what is all this about?  who actually wants this survey = and why?

It started with an action I took in the most = recent RSOC meeting to survey authors to understand choices on draft = submission formats because those directly affect the work of the RPC = which in turn affects the SLA and the contract cost.  The adoption = of the v3 XML as the RFC publication format in September 2019 has meant = a significant increase in costs as the RPC has to convert plain text or = v2 XML submissions into v3.

In that = context I was surprised to hear that a number of people author in XML = and then use xml2rfc to convert to plain text and submit that plain text = I-D.

After my first draft it became = clear that this had to loop in the tools teams as the survey could not = focus on formats without also covering tools as the two are so closely = linked.


and, as you started it, jay, i = wonder what toolchain you use to author
drafts?

The = last time I authored a draft was in 2013 and I wrote that in XML using = the OxygenXML commercial XML editor with xml2rfc to validate it. I = don=E2=80=99t remember what format I used to submit it.  That draft = btw was all about XML/XSLT.  https://datatracker.ietf.org/person/Jay%20Daley
<= br class=3D"">
Jay



randy


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_5B32E3BA-2254-44FE-A0E7-DEF703BEDF26-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:28:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3933A10EC; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nD2La6S_xF5D; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f182.google.com (mail-oi1-f182.google.com [209.85.167.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95B353A10E9; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f182.google.com with SMTP id w141so1360829oia.2; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=033OWc3W2uzDvw24XALJ4Ft8Ko3bjvDKYS6TdmUULmU=; b=OhkWlHIot/O4ILV+ty4n2l9enLcn4YV9iO9WCsoqOdnv45jon6+P24SF7ltI4Z5X8S VZ71E0Mm0JUYeNIxHuNyXlDHga+8HUynFAyhCwBUoeLmqKDpi2YzYdmz8dj8dlEycNyc DZA/CSHDI01mWoIU/fGLJ6pLqt8d5/A5KnqioqfoCLAOhp1OPfUhkc9zw0AT2jJGZGX4 He0Z9LKkv3DffwBYZMeISLgDW6aTuYsWbkcYul7ExDc3tGySmLdONO6fMDIW7Pk1u8us 4JbNRw86JWJUf2fWEbMdATeB8IRWSWEsFJtUSoR1KmDnBJJ09VdkgHy23Qs/RMuztKGo Fdxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531s1g4ntBj0co45c0gId99C68690QfIY1OqWg7HRY9Kg6KSZag/ lgwNGpgksn7Me8VlgUIKfGh+39a9oyqZThvBmUfLP+qC X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzXXg5V3Y1TqlFNkwvSWFEkCXGQhodHewZ7Zy8v/QId/ke1qIO/tD/FQ4wjOHmmNq/gTdWK7SEbmtQ0F7eoQRo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:bbd7:: with SMTP id l206mr468338oif.173.1601569697419; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:28:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Randy Bush , RFC Interest , Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5daa105b09e8044" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:28:20 -0000 --000000000000e5daa105b09e8044 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am not so sure what the value of asking what people do today is. The question that really matters is what people would do if they knew what all the options were. I use Microsoft Word and Markdown to edit my specs. All the code is open source but I seem to be the only person interested in this approach. I edit the main body of the text in regular word format. I use regular outlining etc. and it looks like word all the time I am editing. It does not look like a plaintext rfc. That gives me spell checking and grammar. Change control etc. also work. The biggest deficiency of Word as a source format is that it is a pig to generate from a tool. So I also use markdown similar to that used in Carsten's tool but aligned with the markup used by GitHub because thats the other tool we interact with. So my word documents link to the generated markdown documents. The tool will convert the Word/Markdown text into any of the input sources, HTML, XML or plaintext output. Or all three. The advantage of my approach is that it allows an editor who is using Word to interact with contributors who insist on Markdown. If you look at my output, I have produced 15 substantial drafts over the past two years. The Mesh is similar in size and complexity to X.509v3 PKI or SAML and I have designed and implemented it with very little outside help. The reason I can do what would be a 30 person team at most companies is that I am using a very powerful toolset that locks the documentation and the code together. Every example in my documents is generated from the reference code that is derived from the same source as the schema. I am just implementing a tool that locks the constant tables and cryptographic functions of the code and documentation. It will be take me about four hours. --000000000000e5daa105b09e8044 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I a= m not so sure what the value of asking what people do today is. The questio= n that really matters is what people would do if they knew what all the opt= ions were.

=
I use Microsof= t Word and Markdown to edit my specs. All the code is open source but I see= m to be the only person interested in this approach.

I edit the main body of the text in regular wor= d format. I use regular outlining etc. and it looks like word all the time = I am editing. It does not look like a plaintext rfc. That gives me spell ch= ecking and grammar. Change control etc. also work.

The biggest deficiency of Word as a source format= is that it is a pig to generate from a tool. So I also use markdown simila= r to that used in Carsten's tool but aligned with the markup used by Gi= tHub because thats the other tool we interact with.

So my word documents link to the generated markd= own documents.
=

=
The tool will conver= t the Word/Markdown text into any of the input sources, HTML, XML or plaint= ext output. Or all three.

The advantage of my approach is that it allows an editor who is using Word= to interact with contributors who insist on Markdown.

If you look at my output, I have produced 15 = substantial drafts over the past two years. The Mesh is similar in size and= complexity to X.509v3 PKI or SAML and I have designed and implemented it w= ith very little outside help. The reason I can do what would be a 30 person= team at most companies is that I am using a very powerful toolset that loc= ks the documentation and the code together.

Every example in my documents is generated from the re= ference code that is derived from the same source as the schema. I am just = implementing a tool that locks the constant tables and cryptographic functi= ons of the code and documentation. It will be take me about four hours.
--000000000000e5daa105b09e8044-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:33:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC943A10EC for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:33:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wqh6T3cJ02qp for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37A8E3A10E9 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBA538A08 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id WSFD5VYnE6PG for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AA938A06 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53233454 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:33:22 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Sparks wrote: > We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for IETF > meetings, starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the communi= ty > before we do. uhm, okay. > Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement to > allow meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing the live > streams to run outside their scheduled times will require changing how > they are represented, to no longer be associated with "rooms" or > "tracks". The code refactor at both the datatracker and at meetecho to > support would not be a huge effort, but it also would not be > tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity, recognizing that > the regular meetecho connection and recordings satisfy the need, is t= he > better use of our resources. That holds true even for future in-person > meetings. I understand. I would request that the mp4's that are produced and uploaded to youtube be made available via some other site as well. I'm okay if the site has no "player", and if it's just raw files, and I'm okay if the bandwidth per connection is intentionally set such that I can't stream it "live". (That is, I'd have to start a transfer for the 1hr recording, and it may ta= ke more than 1hr to download. I'm not insisting that this be done, I'm just saying that I'm okay if for reasons of cost-of-CPU-diskio-and-bandwidth it works out that way.) There is still a contingent that dislikes having to deal with Big Tech. The audio recordings were publically available records that did not involve= that. I am interested in who those 10 uses in IETF108 are. Is that one person for 10 sessions? Or 10 different users? I can imagine that there are some people for whom a live video stream is too bandwidth intensive. Still, meetecho has some options to suppress video receiving I thought.. > * Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than one > meeting at =C2=A0 a time. My record is three meetecho windows, and a lot of use the mute button my audio mixer :-) > * Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough comput= er > to run =C2=A0 meetecho. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at th= e last several > meetings. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This population isn't using the mp3 str= eams to address > the posited =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 limitations.=C2=A0 If this is a=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 concern that some people > think they will =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 experience then we can look at ask= ing Meetecho to > allow sending only =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 audio (muting all video). I thought that we already had this. > * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session > in =C2=A0 real-time without paying a registration fee. I think that this will be the biggest hurdle. Given how the waivers have been repositioned, perhaps this is much less of = a hurdle. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl92BM4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUu1QgAgSQ5UyquMRKHkphEHtSVpKEy2P1CBMIlSowCFjAGKmKjLttCk8ZoUWlO P4+bO+8tz8oJU38PTsnF6evl9iMC/iQ71I7t5wBien8PUGbUQTwQXrdydIfeOLQL T9kUWDieBRoHejhk1jRtP54iTgUzXutdTBZbbDoLxxxG1TxUZDlMmqJKh+FzEnbG B3YwNfifSzJUSpNf7wj+IpjemtWJeO80WudKd+XSiiCux1k3WT+uFSPdKxi3zZE2 z1pErYl50K3d5KLtOtzh5naED6m+/w25rgvbQMqHrakUnhfZ36cl366M/ekQgj/r VxzUhF/08DRt+G97i3vqIFM4/EBVXg== =BBCk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:45:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D473A110C; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:45:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9ZEQze315qo; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C0B43A1109; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022AC38A0F; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id wH34BfVih2z9; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C2538A0E; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E642454; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:45:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:45:23 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: >> Jay Daley wrote: >>>> On 1/10/2020, at 2:27 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >>>> >>>>> I=E2=80=99ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific funct= ionality >>>>> (either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D authoring. >>>> >>>> i guess you have never met emacs' xml mode >> >>> I wouldn=E2=80=99t describe that as specific functionality to suppo= rt I-D >>> authoring. An example of the what I mean is the xml2rfc-xxe plugin >>> to XMLMind, which is maintained by some IETF volunteers. >> >> I think that there is a distinction between using notepad to edit XM= L, >> vs you used vi/emacs/eclipse/textmate with an XML-specific (XML >> validating) or RFC2629-specific editing mode. > Is there an RFC2629-specific editing mode? in emacs, no. xml-mode knows a bit about DTDs though, I seem to think. I can't speak for the other editors. > If so then I want to > capture that. If all they are doing is using something like the > RelaxNG schema to validate against then that should be captured (I may > need to add the RelaxNG schema to the list of other tools). =2D- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl92B58ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXN9gf/Tfv4L5qXe6rGRvz5CiGat1M5CnKS+BppVTeTssvnC+6osPPnF+OH6YYI HhgJoCQtVigo/Weq7+9AgJ0ipkYQH89f8XsmslSoG+IcYBMnVNksF/4hZi8GtGPj ZpBafq7B4AWWWflJbWExpUeIf/I2tDtTApEIFdbDCLC5X7bFSm+WDzertAs3S62h +/ly8EDPdWy4vfzHY/HShEFfNR+hr8EZpqCyNvjA0sGCcDD7LVMJ/SRN9KMzjqit MrugmNsWCZr6fVJCFnoP7iKs+BIT6g4PkA/GKRgxlBp3pwi7+QE0iMA3CHVxbyYO IHl2/cEi5XLW7iIHg9Alxr4K8Sm+1Q== =y0Qn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:55:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7383A1122; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eZ4xfpSL4Rde; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D35283A1120; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kO1rK-000867-9s; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:55:10 +0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 09:55:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: Jay Daley , RFC Interest , Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:55:15 -0000 > I am not so sure what the value of asking what people do today is. The > question that really matters is what people would do if they knew what > all the options were. actually, i don't really buy this. what i use today differs from what i use 10 or 20 years ago, and i presume similarly going forward. what we have today, is close to a classic hourglass model, with an xml waist. you can produce that however the heck you want. and there seems to be a rich set of tools to produce the xml. this seems a healthy ecosystem to me. and from the xml, the rfced can produce all the output formats. some really sharp and hard-working folk have produced a rich ecosystem of front ends. this is great, as long as they are compatible with the back end. and we have a back end which is settling in from a major change. i suspect we may not want to 'fix' it right now. hence my asking what all this is about. i am trying to produce work, not chase this week's fashion in editing/formatting. randy From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:56:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7F83A110C for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:56:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSarU5boufV3; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 210763A0AE7; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:56:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_47B12049-4A2C-44CF-86CD-4C5C9C2CD966" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 05:56:38 +1300 In-Reply-To: <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion To: Carsten Bormann References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:56:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_47B12049-4A2C-44CF-86CD-4C5C9C2CD966 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 2/10/2020, at 5:03 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2020-10-01, at 16:51, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> Is there an RFC2629-specific editing mode? If so then I want to = capture that. If all they are doing is using something like the RelaxNG = schema to validate against then that should be captured (I may need to = add the RelaxNG schema to the list of other tools). >=20 > When I was still using XML, I used emacs=E2=80=99 nxml-mode with the = rfc2629.rnc schema (*). Great. I will add the RelaxNG schema to the list of additional = validation tools. > I would expect most emacs-proficient users to arrive there. > This is not just about validating, but also being able to choose from = valid next steps. (Unfortunately, nxml-mode never became quite as = efficient for keyboarding XML as previous SGML-modes were.) >=20 > Basically, you should orthogonalize: >=20 > =E2=80=94 the authoring format (nroff, RFCXML, markdown, asciidoc, = =E2=80=A6) > - the tool used for editing that authoring format >=20 > Many of us have been using several tools on a common format. > (Much initial use of kramdown-rfc was to generate the tedious XML = right from markdown keyboarding, BTW. !}kramdown-rfc RET, if you use = vi.) If we did ask it that way then we lose the important data of what format = goes with what output process and it also gives us a lot of unnecessary = noise about what editors people use. In the end, this is not going to be a perfect survey as there are too = many variable and too many unknowns. =20 Jay >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > (*) Actually, a slightly hacked one, but that was 2009, and I don=E2=80=99= t remember the details. >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_47B12049-4A2C-44CF-86CD-4C5C9C2CD966 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 2/10/2020, at 5:03 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

On 2020-10-01, at 16:51, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

Is there = an RFC2629-specific editing mode?  If so then I want to capture = that.  If all they are doing is using something like the RelaxNG = schema to validate against then that should be captured (I may need to = add the RelaxNG schema to the list of other tools).

When I was still using XML, I = used emacs=E2=80=99 nxml-mode with the rfc2629.rnc schema (*).

Great. =  I will add the RelaxNG schema to the list of additional validation = tools.

I would expect most emacs-proficient users to = arrive there.
This is not just about validating, but also = being able to choose from valid next steps.  (Unfortunately, = nxml-mode never became quite as efficient for keyboarding XML as = previous SGML-modes were.)

Basically, you = should orthogonalize:

=E2=80=94 the = authoring format (nroff, RFCXML, markdown, asciidoc, =E2=80=A6)
- the tool used for editing that authoring format

Many of us have been using several tools on a = common format.
(Much initial use of kramdown-rfc was to = generate the tedious XML right from markdown keyboarding, BTW. =  !}kramdown-rfc RET, if you use vi.)

If we = did ask it that way then we lose the important data of what format goes = with what output process and it also gives us a lot of unnecessary noise = about what editors people use.

In = the end, this is not going to be a perfect survey as there are too many = variable and too many unknowns.  

Jay


Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,= Carsten

(*) Actually, a slightly hacked = one, but that was 2009, and I don=E2=80=99t remember the details.


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_47B12049-4A2C-44CF-86CD-4C5C9C2CD966-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 10:05:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388AE3A1164; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eBAIdyWYqNu5; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DCD53A1163; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:d95:cc56:7ad0:ad89] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:d95:cc56:7ad0:ad89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 659F9AE760; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 19:05:18 +0200 (CEST) To: Jay Daley , Loa Andersson Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <19f2fc69-b31c-62e5-9a46-4cfc299d6f84@pi.nu> <3727370E-84BD-4EC4-9B16-77FB8CBCA918@ietf.org> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Autocrypt: addr=petithug@acm.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE6Mh9wBEADrUEDZChteJbQtsHwZITZExr7TAqT7pniNwhBX3nFgd+FrV3lsLKJ1rym2 52MAYpubXEJZGzMp6uCCAnROWbtmQbOm8z/jHnjxHhPqfuYCYPpAQqu8K/Sc194Rp37krMwB jz32yr7+gvWLzRgQGKIh9d2mzy8QLMETVWWQWGb6fEfpOxXo0wumN1rc/275kZwOu44JIPGg zbgwZdnEqYOUUa18K9MXeRDoWbwDISP30CvKuZDwD14lbBE3o7tBQrU9uoMhE7eFlTjbsCox qoubI2tZSuOTF8mRXjPmNrRGtf9mYkQnOB7y6qy/QxmOVMq4IRtHzOYIm/EZ6NTodcpZQHOM 2v6B6YK9uKrYrapSpJzn4f9oU7alT31Y3o2hOlxAWDQ16+Dd1MOPYsKQXOwY1/ihm4PTjiJ8 ud8yPzy7c+BSVs5wkBU6QuLNIgZHrrxdn+KxM+F/oAVtfzO7XzVoeOcXyWi3/CHL5pgoBruY enIF/RrRuplpy09pvZjmFPNfqKBYJGnqpQuqsQwO7LsFqDqfY2EuHg+KsGN1XuN+jxXc48/1 gCnKw7ALSPWEb7g25wD6KfiZTAcyRTG8LePNFQKhw61LbIWmkw9EaVLyXvwPTc1iCSc0dDT/ pcT/z+8xrWOyWGZNZAjR584NlDpKollbItcxYtFcYZkvTCmOVwARAQABtCZNYXJjIFBldGl0 LUh1Z3VlbmluIDxwZXRpdGh1Z0BhY20ub3JnPokCOAQTAQgAIgIbIwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoL BBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsRWqBAAu/61DGo+j38UefTKnEse0mftPBXa S4lre7vknn33MI0L5QXmiM8zRs9FOKSuXPx0EV+JhI4pWZGW/2MJPuyifXHvnIChcdGInN8J GBdTLZSOgdDFZL9msO+QUsvMA8ZUsqlKOEcVL1NyoLupblCWNq4fYhBCx1zDwX9LZSuGn8lZ Mk8a4QFGoR6dWKaOxeCwnoquW5IK1CfRIhYjHfQMjA5gY0H46F0iCqBaFF/S7krQwIJd0XN4 YbSL4KOrWuxtgQ+iH/iaxxBXgJ1blBNRzXaWJBF4PHv23nSnEzWO17j+uVMaHJu7ycYEf8T9 pVc0xcok1BM2rCrNE5FUFAzsUtAtBZEEK6sSIeOhRG93uD/Hv1hrWzEwf+Z7B1tVQLCQQ4kL 7wyS7SXI/JTuW2xTEGCmwMeWYGERdkgsatmx4zi5nVHDjt3/mlPMj4L+u05SkI2iV4W6xxU1 jHlBIJDs7AVM0dsxzTyIPf2Sz843WyHuBgkoCskxGfOwlkZzDX9rwcWRKal1wjy1w/25LsBY U50INandw3UbrS2I73VX8ARI8uOWZrW7uzRLf8EmuPhtSQ35ThmdoNSgGMP9EXwNgzi/i+5G hbX5KbrSLG9SITFJEcJA4tnwu3nqmBh7D7vbd5ln5X7rmqPdyjidt0zcSjvuaBA+nkmakA4A O+choWy5Ag0EToyH3AEQAL+LguHhcSDCL/IevdcvH/5/fzO2fmuuTxdGwrZZSm7l6/HD2Ira h6Wpa1LvVeRbnsRq8k6O8/i3wVapEoQPmNY3vjWfXaJb8R4vHcqgcxw9N9jhZa+mvGJk9+cI ilDyPzHRBBID4d/3oFKQCQ4Y2SIkO66znPhfBOS2f2AU7AtXHhVEyj6WsLK6boEMcj7j+w5a es2nZam0jhgoz+4DQem4uk8outrRlboGnZN7A2kCNuy39UeOp7BpvQ95IKcJCIeSoiJt2A4B NPQroqhW0zGn9Y9FJ9UiZ9YIeNPYbscUxxvrD+OU9Jv67hW0v3KfvoIKDwVKpO3MW6o+1teS Gt1KCSz+CvGJCvIxfCk7S5K5SBne7ZNKz7rkGXYIzlyr7ZoEgRHmqGmcK/sHTS4e6g2pQQrR USkspyqLZl5Uzmg7yI5oGBL0aHTzYdDkkOKMRXYnl7ivBeNtGcniGqlONLJxpbwec8j7hLRq pXFuepbtPqX/GefuK8rdo+ppEqpRJ50cJTegchTfWfSjn5/mG1B4Oz9OnOcBEeTLO729n0K9 BeTx1pmisD6P/fyrqZZTozDwVEi7Wo9AOaqWOhuTe8L0FlFIk6fc/yM0wzvDWP7sNrevEYHK V9rd+Yc/Jjt293J4uayrt6DNMmSkAw3nlBq3uK5d54J0FAsAUcsE/W2/ABEBAAGJAh8EGAEI AAkCGwwFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsSQyA/+Kx3eWtKyb/y35TjgtjT/Hrtw+aIpr1uK97LA ln1j5m7+lQ/jh0/rvSZjs+YQMYLqVGI8oaaF/u+qrokkU6pfrhVZ49D1BmmSTMBSYgnBDYqZ yZ+uzQnnDYt/mpo2OLbl9BhuifR5QXLp43cE1FIhyDT46wfse5tNZ+ll4m4HtXuTw4W3b4cP Hto10260Mki7hXbkDMZ+icBFDMkrrZyYHSnBhelzIM7XnY7A/XZdulfFcDXEcZhAFEv3ylJs xTnGwzDyP1VAdBFL3hpP1CqfP1Kti4hKcxXZYbIgTSsBjcYbPchw3ktUTU29I/nWKH5gmD+q wFizyhtt8Qhl6U67OdZ/XbRGBXs/7tlYJIGiGZyG7IQtDOX0PsVd+6WRcDdFqkpBwYkxU8gd iCeW+YTQ5d8mXXPT2dhFAeK2hCFa2+IdaXvH8ovjZpTMeKstHrWJUDaSqQ4GFT676DbDyqtm P6Ul9cjGVtXIs64FWqR9wrbwBH1GuIHhDmG9sN5AkyB9mxXaEG3uG4E6qQeedtIKC6p+ebAs aTGgztFWMJDC8LUznu7B0oyWxNVoE/RGt5mesOeAtqYr6Jtdh7unyk8BYP1y4e+SSMwvtwh+ 69tJwNhGYbOJrdX34tXNAKb6r/rFRjVJm+sPPs5ok7LddvV35o+Fho0LRNDsioDV3HytlhA= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:05:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3727370E-84BD-4EC4-9B16-77FB8CBCA918@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="836oNXgpSVR4a9gUs5POKNsrOE5elZ8AN" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 17:05:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --836oNXgpSVR4a9gUs5POKNsrOE5elZ8AN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="hoj9h8wGQ0yQRUUfnmJU0hQLjoSv5Rgjc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Jay Daley , Loa Andersson Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion Message-ID: Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <19f2fc69-b31c-62e5-9a46-4cfc299d6f84@pi.nu> <3727370E-84BD-4EC4-9B16-77FB8CBCA918@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <3727370E-84BD-4EC4-9B16-77FB8CBCA918@ietf.org> --hoj9h8wGQ0yQRUUfnmJU0hQLjoSv5Rgjc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As the author of a tool that generates xml2rfc v3, I am also interested i= n the results of this survey. On 10/1/20 7:53 AM, Jay Daley wrote: > Hi Loa >=20 > There are three groups that can use the output of this survey for their= work: RSOC, Tools Team and Tools Architecture and Strategy Team. It=E2=80= =99s up to them how to use it but having a sound evidential basis on whic= h to act is preferable to the current situation. >=20 > Jay >=20 >> On 1/10/2020, at 8:42 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: >> >> Jay, >> >> while I can understand that it is "a good thing" to understand what fo= rmats and tools is used to author I-Ds, it does not fully answer the ques= tion why this survey is done. >> >> Once we know "formats and tools" what will this be used for? >> >> /Loa >> >> On 30/09/2020 10:58, Jay Daley wrote: >>> We are planning to send out a survey on I-D authoring tools to author= s and wider to provide information for a number of groups including RSOC,= Tools Team, Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and the LLC. The prop= osed question plan is below and we would welcome any feedback. In partic= ular: >>> - are all the important questions asked? >>> - are all the key tools / processes mentioned? >>> - is the language clear including for those for whom English is not t= heir first language? >>> thanks in advance >>> Jay >>> # Question Plan >>> [PAGE] >>> Introduction >>> [HELPTEXT] >>> Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent = to everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five yea= rs and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. >>> We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author = I-Ds, from drafting to submission. >>> In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or non-u= se) of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication format fo= r RFCs on 16 September 2019. >>> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >>> Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-= Ds not versions of the same I-D)? >>> If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the detai= ls. >>> =E2=80=A2 0 >>> =E2=80=A2 1-5 >>> =E2=80=A2 6-10 >>> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >>> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >>> =E2=80=A2 51+ >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new = draft and a new version) to the Datatracker? >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 0 >>> =E2=80=A2 1-10 >>> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >>> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >>> =E2=80=A2 50-100 >>> =E2=80=A2 101+ >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 In total >>> =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018) >>> =E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019) >>> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >>> How many RFCs have you authored? >>> =E2=80=A2 0 >>> =E2=80=A2 1-5 >>> =E2=80=A2 6-10 >>> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >>> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >>> =E2=80=A2 51+ >>> [PAGE] >>> Drafting to submission >>> [LOGIC] >>> Only get here if they have authored an I-D. >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How often have you used the following document format(s) and associat= ed output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? = (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup >>> =E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process >>> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter >>> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter >>> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter >>> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter >>> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process >>> =E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe >>> =E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process >>> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as ascii= doctor-rfc) converter >>> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process >>> =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc >>> =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process >>> =E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor >>> =E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template >>> =E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process >>> =E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Te= mplate (RFC5385) >>> =E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output process = (This means specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor= will recognise, it does not mean using this an editor for one of the oth= er formats) >>> =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a diff= erent format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you autho= r in and what output process you use] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Always >>> =E2=80=A2 Very often >>> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >>> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >>> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >>> If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the q= uestion above then please specify what it is? >>> [QUESTION - Checkboxes] >>> How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output proce= ss(es) that you use? (Check all that apply) >>> =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools >>> =E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose a to= ol that uses that >>> =E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF meetin= g >>> =E2=80=A2 Another author chose for me >>> =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted in o= ne of these tools >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-= D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC >>> =E2=80=A2 A template from https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/ >>> =E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring tool/process= >>> =E2=80=A2 My own >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Always >>> =E2=80=A2 Very often >>> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >>> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >>> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How often have you used the following additional authoring tools? (Ig= nore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml refer= ences >>> =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown >>> =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences to tw= o spaces >>> =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML >>> =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission >>> =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors >>> =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML into another output format >>> =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker >>> =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts >>> =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance >>> =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Always >>> =E2=80=A2 Very often >>> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >>> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >>> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>> [QUESTION - Checkboxes] >>> How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) >>> =E2=80=A2 Locally >>> =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server >>> =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service >>> =E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service >>> =E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with GitHub >>> =E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with Gitlab >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> [PAGE] >>> XML v3 >>> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >>> How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format?= >>> =E2=80=A2 Excellent >>> =E2=80=A2 Good >>> =E2=80=A2 Fair >>> =E2=80=A2 Poor >>> =E2=80=A2 None >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XM= L format? >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >>> =E2=80=A2 Features >>> =E2=80=A2 Documentation >>> =E2=80=A2 Tools support >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 Satisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >>> =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format = to you? >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >>> =E2=80=A2 Features >>> =E2=80=A2 Documentation >>> =E2=80=A2 Tools support >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Very important >>> =E2=80=A2 Important >>> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >>> =E2=80=A2 Unimportant >>> =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant >>> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >>> What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML forma= t? >>> [PAGE] >>> State of the current authoring tools landscape >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring= tools? >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >>> =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes >>> =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata >>> =E2=80=A2 Control of output >>> =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats >>> =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added >>> =E2=80=A2 Overall quality >>> =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 Satisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >>> =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied >>> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to= you? >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >>> =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes >>> =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata >>> =E2=80=A2 Control of output >>> =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats >>> =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added >>> =E2=80=A2 Overall quality >>> =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Very important >>> =E2=80=A2 Important >>> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >>> =E2=80=A2 Not important >>> =E2=80=A2 Not at all important >>> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >>> Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring draft= s? >>> =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree >>> =E2=80=A2 Agree >>> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >>> =E2=80=A2 Disagree >>> =E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree >>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >>> How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following= authoring formats? >>> Items >>> =E2=80=A2 Markdown >>> =E2=80=A2 XML >>> =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG >>> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>> Scale >>> =E2=80=A2 Very important >>> =E2=80=A2 Important >>> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >>> =E2=80=A2 Not important >>> =E2=80=A2 Not at all important >>> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >>> Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? >> >> --=20 --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --hoj9h8wGQ0yQRUUfnmJU0hQLjoSv5Rgjc-- --836oNXgpSVR4a9gUs5POKNsrOE5elZ8AN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAl92DEoACgkQKcRFldZq fsT2NBAA3NrNImKiVoPTNIF0p0gU74KIjVPTQeKnLbizWEd1xEKMv4tpYXlRGoF0 OGnIuvedk4a/a0ptvQR71ReLQnVc1JTzuud6PH70MG8xWyLmfkSLY+9R9AT1WlJ4 J2klD1wDU9GlXJEcIOC/qzdOCHhTNFPtVBhn18PqIOeFFEP6P1CI/jrZLgCtCcvM vQ0czJEA6YVLeCZUIW4/NFvo+EzVD7dUiZMvJhUE12Zy6/pIIG39ksQdLgT4HgXM Hh3P7mtidnkh22B80flCG7hlBGsqz4WU7FsKnYF437sRGWJVWbL7WFbNVy53omQG R3gNmk9IopG7V5i+sVDAJAgkWJmiPGCAmDxXpqop9JKMiFTDwoeZAs2jIfV9ezrI u7ihM+FX2g/c69HdjEcQOUTd6zyCde6rXhRNoIrGeaCbbz5rtCQO5d6q576sqWMP 5J9kk4/kVCRTvjLSNWeBC7Pg6wC7Duy3AbYoLj6f1DaQm5+67HBTLg1OaI0V7B/L NrAi6eIXAVuUW8T2qdqEYfUCRYkeh7qTTyH27wr+XFKLyhzcHpilCZRDrddPxXkr 8f/Xss4xERWNtg3e7QBXEdtbYPeBMNRjY+hh3Ej3/tTfYkDzNkyDwVTO//c4z1jn t22k4lzwCP++IjLKjuvlu+KhkHnbDNndBvLw0hmbj3A2qFvA6Q8= =WoWq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --836oNXgpSVR4a9gUs5POKNsrOE5elZ8AN-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 10:09:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27CD13A1167 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JKKt7JlWArPv; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3E8B3A1132; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 06:09:03 +1300 References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> To: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 17:09:08 -0000 The updated survey is below. Please note that=20 - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats = page - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. Further feedback is most welcome. Jay # Question Plan [PAGE]=20 Introduction [HELPTEXT] Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent to = everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years = and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author = I-Ds, from drafting to submission. In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or non-use) = of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication format for = RFCs on 16 September 2019. [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds = not versions of the same I-D)? If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the details.=20= =E2=80=A2 0 =E2=80=A2 1-5 =E2=80=A2 6-10 =E2=80=A2 11-20 =E2=80=A2 21-50 =E2=80=A2 51+ [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new = draft and a new version) to the Datatracker? Items =E2=80=A2 0 =E2=80=A2 1-10 =E2=80=A2 11-20 =E2=80=A2 21-50 =E2=80=A2 50-100 =E2=80=A2 101+ Scale =E2=80=A2 In total =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018) =E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019) [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] How many RFCs have you authored? =E2=80=A2 0 =E2=80=A2 1-5 =E2=80=A2 6-10 =E2=80=A2 11-20 =E2=80=A2 21-50 =E2=80=A2 51+ [PAGE] Drafting to submission [LOGIC] Only get here if they have authored an I-D. [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated = output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? = (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) Items =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup =E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process =E2=80=A2 XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin =E2=80=A2 XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission =E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as = asciidoctor-rfc) converter =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using the lyx2rfc editor plugin =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process =E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor =E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template =E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template = (RFC5385) =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using a different output process (This = means specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will = recognise) =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a = different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you = author in and what output process you use] Scale =E2=80=A2 Always =E2=80=A2 Very often =E2=80=A2 Sometimes =E2=80=A2 Rarely =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] [QUESTION - Comment Box] If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the = question above then please specify what it is? [QUESTION - Checkboxes] How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output = process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply) =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools =E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose = a tool that uses that =E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF = meeting =E2=80=A2 Another author of my document chose for me =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted = in one of these tools =E2=80=A2 Someone else helped me set up my tools =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-D? = (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) Items =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC =E2=80=A2 A template from = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/=20 =E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring = tool/process =E2=80=A2 My own =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Always =E2=80=A2 Very often =E2=80=A2 Sometimes =E2=80=A2 Rarely =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How often do you use the following checking tools? (Ignore any you = don=E2=80=99t know about) Items =E2=80=A2 I validate against the RelaxNG schema for the RFC XML = in my XML editor=20 =E2=80=A2 Bill=E2=80=99s ABNF parser to check ABNF =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission=20 =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors =E2=80=A2 pyang to check YANG modules =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts =E2=80=A2 SMICng to check MIBs =E2=80=A2 smilint to check MIBs =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance=20 =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML =E2=80=A2 YANG validator to check YANG modules Scale =E2=80=A2 Always =E2=80=A2 Very often =E2=80=A2 Sometimes =E2=80=A2 Rarely =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How often do you use the following conversion tools? (Ignore any you = don=E2=80=99t know about) Items =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml = references =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences = to two spaces =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML to another format =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc to convert RFC XML to another format Scale =E2=80=A2 Always =E2=80=A2 Very often =E2=80=A2 Sometimes =E2=80=A2 Rarely =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] [QUESTION - Checkboxes] How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) =E2=80=A2 Locally =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service =E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service=20 =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] Do you run an automated build process? =E2=80=A2 Yes - I-D Template =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using GitHub CI/CD =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Gitlab CI/CD =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Jenkins =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using CircleCI =E2=80=A2 Yes - Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] =E2=80=A2 No [PAGE] XML v3 [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format? =E2=80=A2 Excellent =E2=80=A2 Good =E2=80=A2 Fair =E2=80=A2 Poor =E2=80=A2 None [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XML = format? Items =E2=80=A2 Ease of use =E2=80=A2 Features =E2=80=A2 Documentation =E2=80=A2 Tools support =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied =E2=80=A2 Satisfied =E2=80=A2 Neutral =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied =E2=80=A2 N/A [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format to = you? Items =E2=80=A2 Ease of use =E2=80=A2 Features =E2=80=A2 Documentation =E2=80=A2 Tools support =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Very important =E2=80=A2 Important =E2=80=A2 Neutral =E2=80=A2 Unimportant =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant =E2=80=A2 N/A [QUESTION - Comment Box] What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format? [PAGE] State of the current authoring tools landscape [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring = tools? Items =E2=80=A2 Ease of use =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata =E2=80=A2 Control of output =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added =E2=80=A2 Overall quality =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied =E2=80=A2 Satisfied =E2=80=A2 Neutral =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied =E2=80=A2 N/A [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to = you? Items =E2=80=A2 Ease of use =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata =E2=80=A2 Control of output =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added =E2=80=A2 Overall quality =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Very important =E2=80=A2 Important =E2=80=A2 Neutral =E2=80=A2 Not important =E2=80=A2 Not at all important =E2=80=A2 N/A [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts? =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree =E2=80=A2 Agree =E2=80=A2 Neutral =E2=80=A2 Disagree =E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following = authoring formats?=20 Items =E2=80=A2 Plain text =E2=80=A2 Markdown =E2=80=A2 XML =E2=80=A2 nroff =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc =E2=80=A2 Some form of WYSIWYG (e.g. MS Word or LibreOffice) =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Very important =E2=80=A2 Important =E2=80=A2 Neutral =E2=80=A2 Not important =E2=80=A2 Not at all important =E2=80=A2 N/A [QUESTION - Comment Box] Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Oct 1 10:28:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F7D3A1174; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKeNIOKyLu9u; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A9573A1171; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kO2N9-00009T-NN; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 17:28:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 10:28:03 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jay Daley Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 17:28:07 -0000 > In that context I was surprised to hear that a number of people author > in XML and then use xml2rfc to convert to plain text and submit that > plain text I-D. as i do that, i assumed most people did :) except for sean, of course, who still uses nroff :) :) randy From nobody Thu Oct 1 10:34:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E043A117C for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:34:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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[24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j11sm6138716qko.111.2020.10.01.10.34.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Oct 2020 10:34:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_45C373CD-E3A1-486A-94D5-C3DBBA907F72" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:34:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Jay Daley , rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion To: Randy Bush References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 17:34:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_45C373CD-E3A1-486A-94D5-C3DBBA907F72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Oct 1, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > as i do that, i assumed most people did :) Same. Emacs has a pretty good XML validator. --Apple-Mail=_45C373CD-E3A1-486A-94D5-C3DBBA907F72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Oct 1, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
as i do that, i assumed most people did :)

Same. Emacs has a pretty good XML validator.

= --Apple-Mail=_45C373CD-E3A1-486A-94D5-C3DBBA907F72-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 11:52:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF723A0E49; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wFMiH9dBBKtK; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24E1B3A0AAE; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B936389FC; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Hq8_UPnz64v5; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB03389FA; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6009DCF4; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley cc: Tools Discussion X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] DT stats page X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 18:52:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {new thread} Jay Daley wrote: > - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats > page I find my own because I've bookmarked it. I've searched the menus, but never found a link. I have no idea how to find yours, except that I know how to spell your name in the URL. I feel that I should be able to get from a document status page to the see a list of authors that leads me to that person's page. (And then discover all the other good work they have done) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl92JXQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVAWAf/QK4UKqKXZmzaAETxwmvvIDq5pauSEUqeJYLspzJji+vhEw9c3NiRg5ma 6gT90WlYxy1xXme+seObuVNFiFGhXjy2rqJ+2nhdOeSelpXyA9azXFrBjDvP+/dy OZBE4Kn6Nmf0Lz+n+HkBvmhqtvPmK1cCx2yBbhAvNwTnyGkYFHWgPsKVPCrrptrl 5qxOw+8TxOP5T3TS6ZbMIsU1DgeeDj2DOg5Ydju6w81aOzSTd3MHvUHcArFiifzK Gv1xclYCw6dvvIDKA6Z9tFXK3AWNJ/rl16kW6TzDTYel/XTk3SrUsT+9ftU4qqWy C9QUA3ZW0L5F+uD4O1/Jdh/sRV6uWw== =sj9W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 12:19:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C863A0E60; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMHvNpqWOuII; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F6003A0E5E; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 091J5CtU005589; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:19:43 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com with ESMTP id 33t0yxvwe6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 01 Oct 2020 15:19:43 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:19:42 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:19:42 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Jay Daley , RFC Interest , Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) Thread-Index: AQHWmBWW1WHgz0i8SkSwLgPYTDy5RamDH3SA Date: 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cHJvamVjdEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KDQogICAgUGxlYXNlIHJlcG9ydCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyBidWdz IGF0DQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLnByb29mcG9pbnQuY29tL3YyL3VybD91PWh0dHAt M0FfX3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnX3Rvb2xzX2lzc3VlcyZkPUR3SUdhUSZjPTk2WmJaWmNhTUY0dzBG NGpwTjZMWmcmcj00TE0wR2JSMGg5RnZ4ODZGdHNLSS13Jm09eFZITnh6NlZHSE12U0NOZ0V1Xzh0 dUJWcXRhME5TUnlxZHFLV0hpNDBtbyZzPTYzTXoxZXh1NVVXZV95WmVjSklCUjBYU0Z1WmVGcnV3 TmhFakg4UGpLYk0mZT0gDQogICAgb3Igc2VuZCBlbWFpbCB0byB3ZWJtYXN0ZXJAdG9vbHMuaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCg0K From nobody Thu Oct 1 12:20:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181C63A0E65 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eME0umCuxy-l for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0662F3A0E5E for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 091JKgwJ027011 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:20:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1601580043; bh=fekT4ZvzXCr5LLY/EITOsQ//SGIajWFO0L8plETduYg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=mTwCxG9WnXs9R5uPG2wfFIwCtzIgRgEVAOaqVtPQEQfW1Rjq0EQDzwVhBMYB88474 RDnCUnLsLaBojGN92y6LH4ZfWjieH37udrUS8zQVmJIMjF7iIC4b4N2//oxWQXjiMp ABlJ9pBv5KrnGAP2dCGX1H9BMSMcLUEjmlNY8Wo0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <490acfb2-908d-39b5-dec7-5be314f4001e@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:20:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 19:20:47 -0000 Off-list reply. I'm happy to hook you up with the person who did this exact evaluation for Mozilla when they decided to retire IRC (for many of the same reasons that the IETF needs to move off of Jabber). The punchline is that they finally settled on Matrix, but there was a lot of really detailed work that he did which could probably inform what y'all are doing. /a On 10/1/2020 9:25 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: > We are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to gain > operational experience and get community feedback about how well these > services meet the need for IETF related chat. > > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) > that many > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem.  This is partly > due to > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client > issues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to > improve the > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative > groupchat > solution.  The community has already taken a step on the latter path > with the > introduction of an IETF Slack space, and we want to ensure that this > path is > properly explored by widening the range of options to well established > free/open source tools. > > The installs currently have almost no local configuration or > customization. > Over the next few weeks, we will be exploring reconfiguring them to use > datatracker credentials for sign-in, and explore bridging between these > systems, Slack, and Jabber. One consequence of these explorations is > that there > will  likely be times, outside of meetings, when accounts will be > disrupted or > even removed and will have to be recreated. Initially, we suggest you > use an > email address for the username on each service. > > We considered running these trials using instances run by the Zulip or > Matrix > communities. We went with instances operated by the secretariat to > learn what > would be needed if the community felt self-hosting chat was important > in the > long-term. > > The services can be found at matrix-trial1.ietf.org and > zulip-trial1.ietf.org. > > Any matrix client can be used with the trial matrix server. There is also > a web client available at at matrix-trial1.ietf.org. > > Similarly any zulip client can be used with the trial zulip server, which > has a built in web interface. > > We would like feedback on how well each client meets chat needs during > meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, iterims, adhocs, and > hallway > conversations. > > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback > received to > inform what chat services we provide in the future and how we will > operate > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not > intend to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the > trial > instances as we move forward. > > This does add to the potentially confusing large number of places > conversation > might take place. We hope to address that with some level of bridging, > at least > with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective development > communities > that bridging between Zulip and Matrix is unsatisfying since the > conversation > models in the two applications are so different. > > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). > > We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may > revisit that > as an option as we continue to gather more feedback. > > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Thu Oct 1 12:21:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C15A3A0E5A for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:21:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rcJDiBB1zmCH for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A50D93A0E24 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 091JLqgw027353 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:21:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1601580114; bh=Y7mTMh/PFTxOawlS9zTjRpl0+ZwQn5THTlyBBh4HILA=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NEtJCdffdrY7UhE2AVa6uIlCtYNxufVu5vqng9n6POX9JdiQQRi3RvzkZAwTEl6T6 jc+SGP8IfbVyq3oNIk7ZVRLensQlUmTZr/VyDzKN15Qfenr75BrPr+M3/d7IP79jWr unfvSAusqw9wN5L3YstlnCKQj+AlO654qZ2lvPJc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] From: Adam Roach To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <490acfb2-908d-39b5-dec7-5be314f4001e@nostrum.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:21:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <490acfb2-908d-39b5-dec7-5be314f4001e@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 19:21:57 -0000 Sorry for the noise, folks. I *meant* to send this directly to Robert. :) /a On 10/1/2020 2:20 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > Off-list reply. > > I'm happy to hook you up with the person who did this exact evaluation > for Mozilla when they decided to retire IRC (for many of the same > reasons that the IETF needs to move off of Jabber). The punchline is > that they finally settled on Matrix, but there was a lot of really > detailed work that he did which could probably inform what y'all are > doing. > > /a > > On 10/1/2020 9:25 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: >> We are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to gain >> operational experience and get community feedback about how well these >> services meet the need for IETF related chat. >> >> We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey >> (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) >> that many >> IETF participants find jabber a significant problem.  This is partly >> due to >> difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to >> client issues. >> There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to >> improve the >> IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative >> groupchat >> solution.  The community has already taken a step on the latter path >> with the >> introduction of an IETF Slack space, and we want to ensure that this >> path is >> properly explored by widening the range of options to well established >> free/open source tools. >> >> The installs currently have almost no local configuration or >> customization. >> Over the next few weeks, we will be exploring reconfiguring them to use >> datatracker credentials for sign-in, and explore bridging between these >> systems, Slack, and Jabber. One consequence of these explorations is >> that there >> will  likely be times, outside of meetings, when accounts will be >> disrupted or >> even removed and will have to be recreated. Initially, we suggest you >> use an >> email address for the username on each service. >> >> We considered running these trials using instances run by the Zulip >> or Matrix >> communities. We went with instances operated by the secretariat to >> learn what >> would be needed if the community felt self-hosting chat was important >> in the >> long-term. >> >> The services can be found at matrix-trial1.ietf.org and >> zulip-trial1.ietf.org. >> >> Any matrix client can be used with the trial matrix server. There is >> also >> a web client available at at matrix-trial1.ietf.org. >> >> Similarly any zulip client can be used with the trial zulip server, >> which >> has a built in web interface. >> >> We would like feedback on how well each client meets chat needs during >> meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, iterims, adhocs, and >> hallway >> conversations. >> >> Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback >> received to >> inform what chat services we provide in the future and how we will >> operate >> them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not >> intend to >> preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from >> the trial >> instances as we move forward. >> >> This does add to the potentially confusing large number of places >> conversation >> might take place. We hope to address that with some level of >> bridging, at least >> with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective development >> communities >> that bridging between Zulip and Matrix is unsatisfying since the >> conversation >> models in the two applications are so different. >> >> The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. >> However, >> please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See >> https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). >> >> We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may >> revisit that >> as an option as we continue to gather more feedback. >> >> Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Thu Oct 1 12:42:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899573A00E3; 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Thu, 01 Oct 2020 12:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.138.136]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f9sm635492pju.8.2020.10.01.12.42.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Oct 2020 12:42:07 -0700 (PDT) To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> Cc: manycouches@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:42:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 19:42:11 -0000 > * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session i= n > real-time without paying a registration fee. >=20 > There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting registra= tion > structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is available and= =20 > being > improved. I don't think that's a tools-discuss decision alone. It's been a signific= ant point of principle discussed (e.g.) in SHMOO, hence the extra CC. It seems to me that the principle of the fee waiver and when it's ethical to use it is still not clear, and we don't know whether it is financially viable in the medium to long term. Until that's settled, I'm a bit uneasy about dropping the mp3 streams, precisely because they do not need pre-registration. (If meetecho had a "read only" or observer mode without pre-registration,= this problem would go away instantly.) Regards Brian Regards Brian Carpenter On 02-Oct-20 03:31, Robert Sparks wrote: > We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for IETF=20 > meetings, > starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the community before we= do. >=20 > At many past meetings we have produced live mp3 streams for each=20 > session. These > steams have been associated with physical meeting rooms, and appeared b= efore > and during the session as a link on the agenda page to a URL like > 'http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf.m3u'.=20 >=20 >=20 > For the last several meetings, these have only been available as a live= =20 > stream. > Recordings of that stream have not been made available after the=20 > meeting. The > full video recording provided by Meetecho has served as the way to list= en to > (or watch) any given session after the fact. >=20 > Further, for the last several meetings, the live streams have seen very= =20 > light > use, on the order of 10 uses for IETF 108. >=20 > Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement to = allow > meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing the live stream= s=20 > to run > outside their scheduled times will require changing how they are=20 > represented, > to no longer be associated with "rooms" or "tracks". The code refactor = > at both > the datatracker and at meetecho to support would not be a huge effort, = > but it > also would not be tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity,= > recognizing that the regular meetecho connection and recordings satisfy= the > need, is the better use of our resources. That holds true even for futu= re > in-person meetings. >=20 > There are several points that have been considered while arriving at th= is > proposal: >=20 > * Chairs use the recordings to fill in minutes. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For the last several meetings, the chairs have been= using the Meetecho > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 recordings for this purpose. Recordings of the live= mp3 streams haven't > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 been available. >=20 > * Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than one=20 > meeting at > =C2=A0 a time. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Meetecho allows joining multiple sessions. >=20 > * Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough computer= =20 > to run > =C2=A0 meetecho. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at the= last several=20 > meetings. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This population isn't using the mp3 streams to addr= ess the posited > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 limitations.=C2=A0 If this is a=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 concern that some people think they=20 > will > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 experience then we can look at asking Meetecho to a= llow sending only > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 audio (muting all video). >=20 > * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session i= n > =C2=A0 real-time without paying a registration fee. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meetin= g registration > =C2=A0=C2=A0 structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is ava= ilable and=20 > being > =C2=A0=C2=A0 improved. >=20 > Please send comments by 16 Oct 2020 either to tools-discuss@ietf.org or= > directly to rjsparks@nostrum.com. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 1 13:01:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13CA3A044A for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JG5xT7NaTBl for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC1033A00E3 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 091K1He2040974 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:01:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1601582479; bh=69al0ybIZEG7sxpch2gz0mG+xESDuSR+PYkO1VHKjGo=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=M8nc8F6uZEbOjuhZ0atqhVt0tG2kLm0PBemfBPpJOEIgAaj1XyIH8u59WjyXPWHTl KWQc5CmkkWC3R+1FliStoE5nSVHap3uw/tzqNAsQf1iWASwNpss2rKAYbdlhPAPodU zL72FiDF/LOKKJ4QOvfxiTXCQ9pU5o2jTiyu81SQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Michael Richardson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <21861.1601569998@localhost> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <062d3200-418d-151e-c78b-e6c22a6656c5@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:01:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21861.1601569998@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 20:01:21 -0000 On 10/1/2020 11:33 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > I understand. > I would request that the mp4's that are produced and uploaded to youtube be > made available via some other site as well. I'd make the same request. A little bit ago, I went to try to find the audio stream for a recent meeting, and was perplexed that the recordings no longer existed. I'm sympathetic to the concerns that Michael expressed; I also note that, even if you're willing to deal with big tech platforms, the inability to download a local copy of material from YouTube is a very unfortunate drawback. As an aside: prior to the youtubization of sessions, it was possible to grab the individual media components from the meetecho recordings, which was *even nicer*. For example, the HRPCRG had a very interesting spot in their session where EFF's Eva Galperin gave a slide-free talk that I shared with some colleagues. In the old format, I could have pointed to the speaker video stream, which would have been nice. On YouTube, the lack of slides meant that the speaker view was rendered as 1/16th of the frame in the upper-right-hand corner, while the remaining 15/16ths of the screen was blank. I'm not necessarily asking for that format to be restored, but it would make for a replacement of the MP3 streams that isn't merely adequate, but actually quite superior. /a From nobody Thu Oct 1 13:17:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DFB3A082F for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:17:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1RuEPeBYsCZ for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6ED83A082C for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id b19so5728326lji.11 for ; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5NVvrP3bxrgvgAeYt4NoVl2j00XcIg1+35lX6VHIFnU=; b=L4oP5oLYmwtpmsQ6It8egunf+7aKaPLAPWsyS82OgSaGereaBZ/mlf+yOrw6xzTvRr 8swmmoX9X8efzodu8ATpaDkF3Ky4Vr4ChGn9HbCjGaD2Pbujeye4ZLEa5OlFMg7CSpk8 inSyk+F84CjsBpYiEDRyR3I+g8jv1Bt20N07sPEtTx9kexgwPlSgqkEbPUR7kYfXl39G LospRhtquFej0sJ6I9wv2TZK3Stm7XVPmUvtKplj3ppjDpK+//q+5bp5lkgp/yjH1vrI 5ytcgm1CKg9z+iRlJgJGzeLQOvVI4Lg16155JbnsXlMeZBVtUXNoAb6wtsfcTNp3gco8 Cf+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5NVvrP3bxrgvgAeYt4NoVl2j00XcIg1+35lX6VHIFnU=; b=Z4kIJ/fiSOE7NRsRcq/FEe4LJNqR90W0Sm75VWi+i5DY4PSmxOo7m0EgHDqzlivjD0 XjUfnF6RwGRG74Iy6MvnaSX+W5SRanzL2bdwZGxCU/ixpASGoMRRQkznRwpbnEDNZnm5 yBwOVg1IjvJr6PJbPcJq+VnUzjOXamZsDofGG/cZ3VHzJNRqFhPh3rLN3dYEL0nvbe2Z NSgPNrOTaP8gFYYj87xD6HHXBDJ96fZf3QASemTXsSE4RVD6+I6t4nnNVqnKrR6ZbAJ+ hoGgryBbDJH/A9LpDcB4yOAM+VGxVEQdhugYx14gbEZatYyVjKPRWhozgak83poiD31Z IkgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532dDmuZLm9g/Yc7r0/56/umtTrg7YHMa4ifgxTa2iEpeMpDLAL5 greCLDakW6usM+UH4c0haSjO7tKei10GCllpQQaf2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKzMRE6b8pplKeyJ3avD7eILbHJb/+fUJiu5LJ9vA+hijOieyblaJMQ+6e/x6JdhbjT+relue2bh8fGJtUcOg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2e13:: with SMTP id u19mr2782096lju.11.1601583467142; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 13:17:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:17:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 20:17:53 -0000 Can we add: XMLMind with the xml2rfc-xxe plugin to the "document format(s) and associated output process(es)" list? This plugin was originally created by Billo, and I took over maintenance many years back I don't know how many people still use it, but there are howls of outrage everytime a new version of XMLMind comes out and I don't release a new version in time. This will at least help me know if it is still worth my time to rev and post it... W On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 1:09 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > The updated survey is below. Please note that > > - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links > - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats page > - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. > > Further feedback is most welcome. > > Jay > > # Question Plan > > [PAGE] > Introduction > > [HELPTEXT] > Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent to e= veryone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years and= is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. > > We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author I-Ds= , from drafting to submission. > > In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or non-use) = of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication format for RFCs= on 16 September 2019. > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds n= ot versions of the same I-D)? > If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the details. > =E2=80=A2 0 > =E2=80=A2 1-5 > =E2=80=A2 6-10 > =E2=80=A2 11-20 > =E2=80=A2 21-50 > =E2=80=A2 51+ > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new draf= t and a new version) to the Datatracker? > Items > =E2=80=A2 0 > =E2=80=A2 1-10 > =E2=80=A2 11-20 > =E2=80=A2 21-50 > =E2=80=A2 50-100 > =E2=80=A2 101+ > Scale > =E2=80=A2 In total > =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018) > =E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019) > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > How many RFCs have you authored? > =E2=80=A2 0 > =E2=80=A2 1-5 > =E2=80=A2 6-10 > =E2=80=A2 11-20 > =E2=80=A2 21-50 > =E2=80=A2 51+ > > > [PAGE] > Drafting to submission > > [LOGIC] > Only get here if they have authored an I-D. > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated o= utput process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? (Ignor= e any you don=E2=80=99t know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup > =E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin > =E2=80=A2 XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission > =E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as as= ciidoctor-rfc) converter > =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using the lyx2rfc editor plugin > =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor > =E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template > =E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template (RFC= 5385) > =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using a different output process (This means= specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will recogni= se) > =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a d= ifferent format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you auth= or in and what output process you use] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the quest= ion above then please specify what it is? > > [QUESTION - Checkboxes] > How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output process(e= s) that you use? (Check all that apply) > =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools > =E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose a= tool that uses that > =E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF mee= ting > =E2=80=A2 Another author of my document chose for me > =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted i= n one of these tools > =E2=80=A2 Someone else helped me set up my tools > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-D? (= Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC > =E2=80=A2 A template from https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/ > =E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring tool/proc= ess > =E2=80=A2 My own > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often do you use the following checking tools? (Ignore any you don=E2= =80=99t know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 I validate against the RelaxNG schema for the RFC XML i= n my XML editor > =E2=80=A2 Bill=E2=80=99s ABNF parser to check ABNF > =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission > =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors > =E2=80=A2 pyang to check YANG modules > =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker > =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts > =E2=80=A2 SMICng to check MIBs > =E2=80=A2 smilint to check MIBs > =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance > =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML > =E2=80=A2 YANG validator to check YANG modules > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often do you use the following conversion tools? (Ignore any you don= =E2=80=99t know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml re= ferences > =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown > =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences to= two spaces > =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML > =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML to another format > =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc to convert RFC XML to another format > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Checkboxes] > How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) > =E2=80=A2 Locally > =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server > =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service > =E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Do you run an automated build process? > =E2=80=A2 Yes - I-D Template > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using GitHub CI/CD > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Gitlab CI/CD > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Jenkins > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using CircleCI > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > =E2=80=A2 No > > > [PAGE] > XML v3 > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format? > =E2=80=A2 Excellent > =E2=80=A2 Good > =E2=80=A2 Fair > =E2=80=A2 Poor > =E2=80=A2 None > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XML fo= rmat? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Features > =E2=80=A2 Documentation > =E2=80=A2 Tools support > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format to y= ou? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Features > =E2=80=A2 Documentation > =E2=80=A2 Tools support > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very important > =E2=80=A2 Important > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Unimportant > =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format? > > > [PAGE] > State of the current authoring tools landscape > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring too= ls? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes > =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata > =E2=80=A2 Control of output > =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats > =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems > =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added > =E2=80=A2 Overall quality > =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to you= ? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes > =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata > =E2=80=A2 Control of output > =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats > =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems > =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added > =E2=80=A2 Overall quality > =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very important > =E2=80=A2 Important > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Not important > =E2=80=A2 Not at all important > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts? > =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree > =E2=80=A2 Agree > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Disagree > =E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following aut= horing formats? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Plain text > =E2=80=A2 Markdown > =E2=80=A2 XML > =E2=80=A2 nroff > =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc > =E2=80=A2 Some form of WYSIWYG (e.g. MS Word or LibreOffice) > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very important > =E2=80=A2 Important > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Not important > =E2=80=A2 Not at all important > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Oct 1 13:21:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794513A010A for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03W8fxUW5xXg; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF00A3A00E5; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:21:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <5DAD19A4-533D-42FE-8848-B53DBD60836D@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CB0D2EC4-5248-4523-93A3-84F741F107D9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:21:39 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion To: Warren Kumari References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 20:21:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CB0D2EC4-5248-4523-93A3-84F741F107D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It was on there with pretty much that wording but in response to = feedback I changed it to just "XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin" = - does that work or should I revert?=20 > On 2/10/2020, at 9:17 AM, Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 > Can we add: XMLMind with the xml2rfc-xxe plugin > to the "document format(s) and associated output process(es)" list? >=20 > This plugin was originally created by Billo, and I took over > maintenance many years back I don't know how many people still use it, > but there are howls of outrage everytime a new version of XMLMind > comes out and I don't release a new version in time. > This will at least help me know if it is still worth my time to rev > and post it... >=20 > W >=20 > On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 1:09 PM Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> The updated survey is below. Please note that >>=20 >> - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links >> - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats = page >> - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. >>=20 >> Further feedback is most welcome. >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >> # Question Plan >>=20 >> [PAGE] >> Introduction >>=20 >> [HELPTEXT] >> Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent = to everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five = years and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. >>=20 >> We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author = I-Ds, from drafting to submission. >>=20 >> In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or = non-use) of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication = format for RFCs on 16 September 2019. >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different = I-Ds not versions of the same I-D)? >> If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the = details. >> =E2=80=A2 0 >> =E2=80=A2 1-5 >> =E2=80=A2 6-10 >> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >> =E2=80=A2 51+ >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new = draft and a new version) to the Datatracker? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 0 >> =E2=80=A2 1-10 >> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >> =E2=80=A2 50-100 >> =E2=80=A2 101+ >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 In total >> =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018) >> =E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019) >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> How many RFCs have you authored? >> =E2=80=A2 0 >> =E2=80=A2 1-5 >> =E2=80=A2 6-10 >> =E2=80=A2 11-20 >> =E2=80=A2 21-50 >> =E2=80=A2 51+ >>=20 >>=20 >> [PAGE] >> Drafting to submission >>=20 >> [LOGIC] >> Only get here if they have authored an I-D. >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often have you used the following document format(s) and = associated output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring = an I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup >> =E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin >> =E2=80=A2 XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for = submission >> =E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as = asciidoctor-rfc) converter >> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using the lyx2rfc editor plugin >> =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor >> =E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template >> =E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process >> =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template = (RFC5385) >> =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using a different output process (This = means specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will = recognise) >> =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in = a different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format = you author in and what output process you use] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >> If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the = question above then please specify what it is? >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Checkboxes] >> How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output = process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply) >> =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools >> =E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then = chose a tool that uses that >> =E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF = meeting >> =E2=80=A2 Another author of my document chose for me >> =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already = drafted in one of these tools >> =E2=80=A2 Someone else helped me set up my tools >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an = I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC >> =E2=80=A2 A template from = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/ >> =E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring = tool/process >> =E2=80=A2 My own >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often do you use the following checking tools? (Ignore any you = don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 I validate against the RelaxNG schema for the RFC = XML in my XML editor >> =E2=80=A2 Bill=E2=80=99s ABNF parser to check ABNF >> =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission >> =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors >> =E2=80=A2 pyang to check YANG modules >> =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker >> =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts >> =E2=80=A2 SMICng to check MIBs >> =E2=80=A2 smilint to check MIBs >> =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance >> =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML >> =E2=80=A2 YANG validator to check YANG modules >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How often do you use the following conversion tools? (Ignore any you = don=E2=80=99t know about) >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml = references >> =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown >> =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences = to two spaces >> =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML >> =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML to another format >> =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc to convert RFC XML to another format >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Checkboxes] >> How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) >> =E2=80=A2 Locally >> =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server >> =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service >> =E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> Do you run an automated build process? >> =E2=80=A2 Yes - I-D Template >> =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using GitHub CI/CD >> =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Gitlab CI/CD >> =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Jenkins >> =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using CircleCI >> =E2=80=A2 Yes - Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> =E2=80=A2 No >>=20 >>=20 >> [PAGE] >> XML v3 >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format? >> =E2=80=A2 Excellent >> =E2=80=A2 Good >> =E2=80=A2 Fair >> =E2=80=A2 Poor >> =E2=80=A2 None >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 = XML format? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Features >> =E2=80=A2 Documentation >> =E2=80=A2 Tools support >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format = to you? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Features >> =E2=80=A2 Documentation >> =E2=80=A2 Tools support >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very important >> =E2=80=A2 Important >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Unimportant >> =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >> What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML = format? >>=20 >>=20 >> [PAGE] >> State of the current authoring tools landscape >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring = tools? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes >> =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata >> =E2=80=A2 Control of output >> =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats >> =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems >> =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added >> =E2=80=A2 Overall quality >> =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Satisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to = you? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Ease of use >> =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes >> =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata >> =E2=80=A2 Control of output >> =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats >> =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems >> =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added >> =E2=80=A2 Overall quality >> =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very important >> =E2=80=A2 Important >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Not important >> =E2=80=A2 Not at all important >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] >> Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring = drafts? >> =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree >> =E2=80=A2 Agree >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Disagree >> =E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] >> How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following = authoring formats? >> Items >> =E2=80=A2 Plain text >> =E2=80=A2 Markdown >> =E2=80=A2 XML >> =E2=80=A2 nroff >> =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc >> =E2=80=A2 Some form of WYSIWYG (e.g. MS Word or LibreOffice) >> =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] >> Scale >> =E2=80=A2 Very important >> =E2=80=A2 Important >> =E2=80=A2 Neutral >> =E2=80=A2 Not important >> =E2=80=A2 Not at all important >> =E2=80=A2 N/A >>=20 >> [QUESTION - Comment Box] >> Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? >>=20 >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> jay@ietf.org >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_CB0D2EC4-5248-4523-93A3-84F741F107D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 It = was on there with pretty much that wording but in response to feedback I = changed it to just "XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin" - does that = work or should I revert? 

On = 2/10/2020, at 9:17 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> = wrote:

Can we add: XMLMind with the xml2rfc-xxe plugin
to the "document format(s) and associated output process(es)" = list?

This plugin was originally created by = Billo, and I took over
maintenance many years back I don't = know how many people still use it,
but there are howls of = outrage everytime a new version of XMLMind
comes out and I = don't release a new version in time.
This will at least = help me know if it is still worth my time to rev
and post = it...

W

On = Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 1:09 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

The updated survey is below. =  Please note that

- this doesn=E2=80=99t= show the links
- I am still not sure how to point people = to their Datatracker stats page
- the flow logic may = change when the survey is tested.

Further = feedback is most welcome.

Jay

# Question Plan

[PAGE]
Introduction

[HELPTEXT]
Thank you for taking part in this = survey.  This survey has been sent to everyone who has authored an = Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years and is open to anyone who = has ever authored an I-D.

We are hoping to = understand what formats and tools you use to author I-Ds, from drafting = to submission.

In particular, we are hoping = to find out more about the use (or non-use) of the v3 XML format for = I-Ds, which became the publication format for RFCs on 16 September = 2019.

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total = (different I-Ds not versions of the same I-D)?
If you need = a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the details.
       =E2=80=A2 0
       =E2=80=A2 1-5
       =E2=80=A2 6-10
       =E2=80=A2 11-20
       =E2=80=A2 21-50
       =E2=80=A2 51+

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft = (both a new draft and a new version) to the Datatracker?
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 0
=        =E2=80=A2 1-10
=        =E2=80=A2 11-20
=        =E2=80=A2 21-50
=        =E2=80=A2 50-100
=        =E2=80=A2 101+
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 In total
       =E2=80=A2 Last 2 = years (Since September 2018)
=        =E2=80=A2 Last year (since = September 2019)

[QUESTION - Multiple = Choice]
How many RFCs have you authored?
=        =E2=80=A2 0
=        =E2=80=A2 1-5
=        =E2=80=A2 6-10
=        =E2=80=A2 11-20
=        =E2=80=A2 21-50
=        =E2=80=A2 51+


[PAGE]
Drafting to submission

[LOGIC]
Only get here if they = have authored an I-D.

[QUESTION - = Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often have you used the following = document format(s) and associated output process(es) = (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? (Ignore any you = don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no = markup
       =E2=80=A2 = Plain text using a different output process
=        =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the = kramdown-rfc2629 converter
=        =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the = mmark converter
=        =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the = draftr converter
=        =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the = Pandoc2rfc converter
=        =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a = different output process
=        =E2=80=A2 XML using the = xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin
=        =E2=80=A2 XML using xml2rfc to = create plain text for submission
=        =E2=80=A2 XML using a = different output process
=        =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the = metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) converter
       =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc = using a different output process
=        =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using = the lyx2rfc editor plugin
=        =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a = different output process
=        =E2=80=A2 nroff using the = Nroff Edit editor
=        =E2=80=A2 nroff using = nroff2xml template
=        =E2=80=A2 nroff using a = different output process
=        =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using Joe = Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template (RFC5385)
=        =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using a = different output process (This means specifically using rich text styles = that a template/convertor will recognise)
=        =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only = use this option if you author in a different format to all of those = above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you author in and what output process = you use]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Always
=        =E2=80=A2 Very often
       =E2=80=A2 = Sometimes
       =E2=80=A2= Rarely
       =E2=80=A2= Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION= - Comment Box]
If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different = output process=E2=80=9D in the question above then please specify what = it is?

[QUESTION - Checkboxes]
How did you choose the document format(s) and associated = output process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply)
=        =E2=80=A2 I researched the = tools
       =E2=80=A2 = I decided on my authoring format first and then chose a tool that uses = that
       =E2=80=A2 = I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF meeting
=        =E2=80=A2 Another author of = my document chose for me
=        =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to = contribute to was already drafted in one of these tools
=        =E2=80=A2 Someone else helped = me set up my tools
=        =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating = Scale]
How often have you used the following template(s) = when drafting an I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous = I-D / RFC
       =E2=80=A2= A template from https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/
=        =E2=80=A2 A template that came = with my chosen authoring tool/process
=        =E2=80=A2 My own
=        =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Always
=        =E2=80=A2 Very often
       =E2=80=A2 = Sometimes
       =E2=80=A2= Rarely
       =E2=80=A2= Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION= - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often do you use the following = checking tools? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 I validate against = the RelaxNG schema for the RFC XML in my XML editor
=        =E2=80=A2 Bill=E2=80=99s ABNF = parser to check ABNF
=        =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a = draft before submission
=        =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a = draft for spelling errors
=        =E2=80=A2 pyang to check YANG = modules
       =E2=80=A2= RFC dependency checker
=        =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find = diffs between versions of drafts
=        =E2=80=A2 SMICng to check = MIBs
       =E2=80=A2 = smilint to check MIBs
=        =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a = draft for SVG schema compliance
=        =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to = validate RFC XML
=        =E2=80=A2 YANG validator to = check YANG modules
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Always
=        =E2=80=A2 Very often
       =E2=80=A2 = Sometimes
       =E2=80=A2= Rarely
       =E2=80=A2= Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION= - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often do you use the following = conversion tools? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to = convert bibtext citations into bibxml references
=        =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert = bibxml references into markdown
=        =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to = change spacing between sentences to two spaces
=        =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a = plain text I-D into XML
=        =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to = convert RFC XML to another format
=        =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc to convert = RFC XML to another format
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Always
=        =E2=80=A2 Very often
       =E2=80=A2 = Sometimes
       =E2=80=A2= Rarely
       =E2=80=A2= Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION= - Checkboxes]
How do you run your tools? (Check all that = apply)
       =E2=80=A2 = Locally
       =E2=80=A2= On a private hosted server
=        =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public = web service
       =E2=80= =A2 On a third-party public web service
=        =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Do you run an automated build process?
=        =E2=80=A2 Yes - I-D = Template
       =E2=80=A2= Yes - Using GitHub CI/CD
=        =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Gitlab = CI/CD
       =E2=80=A2 = Yes - Using Jenkins
=        =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using = CircleCI
       =E2=80=A2= Yes - Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
=        =E2=80=A2 No


[PAGE]
XML v3

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
How do you rate = your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format?
=        =E2=80=A2 Excellent
       =E2=80=A2 Good
       =E2=80=A2 Fair
       =E2=80=A2 Poor
       =E2=80=A2 None

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of = the v3 XML format?
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 Ease of use
       =E2=80=A2 = Features
       =E2=80=A2= Documentation
=        =E2=80=A2 Tools support
       =E2=80=A2 Other = [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
       =E2=80=A2 = Satisfied
       =E2=80=A2= Neutral
       =E2=80=A2= Dissatisfied
=        =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
       =E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML = format to you?
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 Ease of use
       =E2=80=A2 = Features
       =E2=80=A2= Documentation
=        =E2=80=A2 Tools support
       =E2=80=A2 Other = [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Very important
       =E2=80=A2 = Important
       =E2=80=A2= Neutral
       =E2=80=A2= Unimportant
=        =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant
       =E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Comment Box]
What = more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format?


[PAGE]
State of = the current authoring tools landscape

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied = are you with the following characteristics of authoring tools?
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 Ease of use
       =E2=80=A2 = Integration with IETF processes
=        =E2=80=A2 Support for the full = range of tags / metadata
=        =E2=80=A2 Control of output
       =E2=80=A2 Support = of various output formats
=        =E2=80=A2 Integration with = version control systems
=        =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new = features are added
=        =E2=80=A2 Overall quality
       =E2=80=A2 Choice = of different tools
=        =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
       =E2=80=A2 = Satisfied
       =E2=80=A2= Neutral
       =E2=80=A2= Dissatisfied
=        =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
       =E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How Important are the following characteristics of authoring = tools to you?
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 Ease of use
       =E2=80=A2 = Integration with IETF processes
=        =E2=80=A2 Support for the full = range of tags / metadata
=        =E2=80=A2 Control of output
       =E2=80=A2 Support = of various output formats
=        =E2=80=A2 Integration with = version control systems
=        =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new = features are added
=        =E2=80=A2 Overall quality
       =E2=80=A2 Choice = of different tools
=        =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Very important
       =E2=80=A2 = Important
       =E2=80=A2= Neutral
       =E2=80=A2= Not important
=        =E2=80=A2 Not at all = important
       =E2=80=A2= N/A

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for = authoring drafts?
=        =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree
       =E2=80=A2 Agree
       =E2=80=A2 = Neutral
       =E2=80=A2= Disagree
       =E2=80=A2= Strongly disagree

[QUESTION - = Matrix/Rating Scale]
How important is it for you for any = new tool to support the following authoring formats?
Items
=        =E2=80=A2 Plain text
       =E2=80=A2 = Markdown
       =E2=80=A2= XML
       =E2=80=A2 = nroff
       =E2=80=A2 = AsciiDoc
       =E2=80=A2= Some form of WYSIWYG (e.g. MS Word or LibreOffice)
=        =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE = SPECIFY]
Scale
=        =E2=80=A2 Very important
       =E2=80=A2 = Important
       =E2=80=A2= Neutral
       =E2=80=A2= Not important
=        =E2=80=A2 Not at all = important
       =E2=80=A2= N/A

[QUESTION - Comment Box]
Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and = formats?

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org
___________________________________________________________Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and = mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to = datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report = tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org



--I don't think the execution is relevant when it was = obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This = is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and = that pair
of pants.
  ---maf


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_CB0D2EC4-5248-4523-93A3-84F741F107D9-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 13:31:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7873A08AB for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:31:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B5LD4oY4l3Dr for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D15703A0870 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C2PsT61clzyVP; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 22:31:09 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <21861.1601569998@localhost> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 22:31:09 +0200 Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623277069.423336-0ba23f1604011c962e437e767a0b8e29 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <21861.1601569998@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 20:31:15 -0000 On 2020-10-01, at 18:33, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > I would request that the mp4's that are produced and uploaded to = youtube be > made available via some other site as well. Syncing the channel to LBRY could be an easy, low-effort first start. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Oct 1 13:34:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3E33A0870; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tJx35v6iOgb4; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABC7D3A07CE; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:59269 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kO5Hm-0007h7-7H; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 13:34:46 -0700 To: Michael Richardson , Jay Daley References: <21677.1601578356@localhost> Cc: Tools Discussion From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 22:34:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21677.1601578356@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G5gXNpCbGWqsGmUaIgaDrN320r4FJxqL9" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, jay@ietf.org, mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DT stats page X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 20:34:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --G5gXNpCbGWqsGmUaIgaDrN320r4FJxqL9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qGrKtt3Jc5PRtb4xeiEWIfeGwb0IHU23n"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Michael Richardson , Jay Daley Cc: Tools Discussion Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DT stats page References: <21677.1601578356@localhost> In-Reply-To: <21677.1601578356@localhost> --qGrKtt3Jc5PRtb4xeiEWIfeGwb0IHU23n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, On 2020-10-01 20:52, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > {new thread} >=20 > Jay Daley wrote: > > - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker st= ats > > page >=20 > I find my own because I've bookmarked it. > I've searched the menus, but never found a link. >=20 > I have no idea how to find yours, except that I know how to spell your = name > in the URL. I feel that I should be able to get from a document status= page > to the see a list of authors that leads me to that person's page. > (And then discover all the other good work they have done) I'll add a menu link to the personal stats and profile page in a release = I hope to do tomorrow. I'm already in the process of cutting a release for= a meeting agenda customisation update project, which should be available for installation later today. That release will not contain the new link= s, though, as I'd like to have the opportunity to run the full test-crawler across the site for the menu and link changes before releasing that. Best regards, Henrik >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T cons= ulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --qGrKtt3Jc5PRtb4xeiEWIfeGwb0IHU23n-- --G5gXNpCbGWqsGmUaIgaDrN320r4FJxqL9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl92PVIACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqrtQ//dHBBPX2DGZpFSaOzO+u1LNy/+TZ1QFRTLHs5xv9OF3mr/2dhsxTJjDUZ LTzMvG/a0P+TGmGYd97kxH9NOmw7Ahp2OwyLEYCI72BHQDJhOmwN9u7CSbU4UDp/ WFpLshiySCaDOod7+MQos/rJRrsNuR9A0Yfc4Uo6HuZ1I0XY/BSo9jtpKOIQdfv+ nWl++HMS0cP7DycaXDd/Rc29/hxJW9zr/4Bd/ahOSBYdSEd/UxTDuQE1L0aVU+8y egObj7YepQAAllsnCk3SVshcJpd8koI3rCGX6eLo6POdtDhgfVu29/T00bl82lEO YrMp1AoiN/sMZGJAhMz/7akDg2YZQbL+wXJtYzv/BXQ/4LZ0zwlqSJpYGqsbyuV2 A+1BWrqmlMOaRF/9hJeIVfR/ZR7xUypjVPFkmzsH2btWgcK1V4CmpLQoYw8il0wa +OxqYKf0Y+5zYsINQmFS6JPOJLGqu7JM8KlszokNr/kTlZjfYRh9I/aXsAVR5Owe gJ4f4GthJjhsC8lkRhPEIln0Rx6bQ44v7yXC6XMEdkf2p/fdcVpIsdyndmrJTaW3 YIPvbGNsMIxxgPQP9pWOrMVfd1RGMrLnqADGK+RjjjbbYJVpC+dg5nmZ7K4pCb0v x90fGEBKSewfI87wAZQcIDLxrCIW9Xf+6gvFc+W4+iZo3q2JbUA= =MEec -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G5gXNpCbGWqsGmUaIgaDrN320r4FJxqL9-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 13:36:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D4C3A0870 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:36:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KuBqxSjfBcnE for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C0F03A0855 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62BA38A14; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id n2uDeYABhECf; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04A738A13; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E00F18B; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Adam Roach , "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <062d3200-418d-151e-c78b-e6c22a6656c5@nostrum.com> References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <21861.1601569998@localhost> <062d3200-418d-151e-c78b-e6c22a6656c5@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 20:36:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adam Roach wrote: > On 10/1/2020 11:33 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >> I understand. I would request that the mp4's that are produced and >> uploaded to youtube be made available via some other site as well. > I'd make the same request. A little bit ago, I went to try to find the > audio stream for a recent meeting, and was perplexed that the > recordings no longer existed. I'm sympathetic to the concerns that > Michael expressed; I also note that, even if you're willing to deal > with big tech platforms, the inability to download a local copy of > material from YouTube is a very unfortunate drawback. Well, there tools that will do this, but youtube tries to break them, I think. :-) > As an aside: prior to the youtubization of sessions, it was possible = to > grab the individual media components from the meetecho recordings, > which was *even nicer*. For example, the HRPCRG had a very interesting > spot in their session where EFF's Eva Galperin gave a slide-free talk > that I shared with some colleagues. In the old format, I could have > pointed to the speaker video stream, which would have been nice. On > YouTube, the lack of slides meant that the speaker view was rendered = as > 1/16th of the frame in the upper-right-hand corner, while the remaini= ng > 15/16ths of the screen was blank. I'm not necessarily asking for that > format to be restored, but it would make for a replacement of the MP3 > streams that isn't merely adequate, but actually quite superior. I agree it would be nice to have the media components. It might also allow for interesting remixes later on. Also the meetecho recording does not include the jabber/chat view, the participant queue (to see who is speaking), or the vote/hum results. So even though you have jabber logs, it's difficult to easily see exactly what it relates to. The best part about watching the recordings though, is 2x playback speed :-) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl92PcQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUbXgf+KasbH0PYcqACoD+XHuERPVxhrbiBU6TtSsTRnZpeA4Y0sVlpqGV1HyHn tg6fwxh9K6jZ5684X8AX/u4qmx5NimBWbCwb9+NLnGpLyv4a/fybNWYV0vGtT3XQ dDx/uvrUuC8sdJ0XKxF7ZERvp7eQngeEesB3HMi4/PSUSAvPrz2/AnSOMZSLDXOk bX2SDe3CzJVIYXzkIG1ccO06pmm3POMwusJfC/aMhgvEGkX2sdtS7RqYlOxMTNeb 201OrhGzPBCuo00Tyln2LmEn6WxU3QU/Esaah0gRXM4tcdi3j+12w8mmOuRDvphG zU31hpEJo01QpMuM2R8RebdyMPHdjg== =Q1Ls -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 14:41:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9CB3A0967 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIe7QtiSZl-8 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FE5D3A0969 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.196] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 009BB1D631; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:41:34 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1601588495; bh=w5WdfawfhZK9bSpGNp9hfJzCUCEklKdAPD82WgT2CO4=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:From; b=ErA69/gompGgmYxSyPpr3GdAMpxyZ+dUaidZhhOjKd0cI99fkjXrybTUPHWeRsdpq GXj8EuxY7ohzj39K1r+tsGET6jhZ1FmyRjTsGRq4K6ebjgjKQ2XLEhRk09w0dGkCVp SKcSzjzQVU6NDgZCgLIk1N74rJQz1buWDAo/F7uMYszX0tv43cdwksRxZGLTCMHiYl G7MggysD52TBRvlYbZyZPZfobEa52TlWFFqYrZ1VDirVItdMaSCzeWd0QtYws0dFYi RI4Bnq3CmG3UjzHgwML0U+miwKOSMENyyGjaVU+S89YzsKBGKKSUuejs+HZvDsCd3j dXlFURnHGpHpQ== From: Tom Pusateri Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_809C4E03-DCDF-419D-9CFA-EEEF39E2B743" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:41:34 -0400 In-Reply-To: <13704.1601584581@localhost> Cc: Adam Roach , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" To: Michael Richardson References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <21861.1601569998@localhost> <062d3200-418d-151e-c78b-e6c22a6656c5@nostrum.com> <13704.1601584581@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 21:41:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_809C4E03-DCDF-419D-9CFA-EEEF39E2B743 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 1, 2020, at 4:36 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Adam Roach > wrote: >> On 10/1/2020 11:33 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> I understand. I would request that the mp4's that are produced and >>> uploaded to youtube be made available via some other site as well. >=20 >> I'd make the same request. A little bit ago, I went to try to find = the >> audio stream for a recent meeting, and was perplexed that the >> recordings no longer existed. I'm sympathetic to the concerns that >> Michael expressed; I also note that, even if you're willing to deal >> with big tech platforms, the inability to download a local copy of >> material from YouTube is a very unfortunate drawback. >=20 > Well, there tools that will do this, but youtube tries to break them, = I > think. :-) >=20 >> As an aside: prior to the youtubization of sessions, it was possible = to >> grab the individual media components from the meetecho recordings, >> which was *even nicer*. For example, the HRPCRG had a very = interesting >> spot in their session where EFF's Eva Galperin gave a slide-free talk >> that I shared with some colleagues. In the old format, I could have >> pointed to the speaker video stream, which would have been nice. On >> YouTube, the lack of slides meant that the speaker view was rendered = as >> 1/16th of the frame in the upper-right-hand corner, while the = remaining >> 15/16ths of the screen was blank. I'm not necessarily asking for that >> format to be restored, but it would make for a replacement of the MP3 >> streams that isn't merely adequate, but actually quite superior. >=20 > I agree it would be nice to have the media components. > It might also allow for interesting remixes later on. >=20 > Also the meetecho recording does not include the jabber/chat view, the > participant queue (to see who is speaking), or the vote/hum results. > So even though you have jabber logs, it's difficult to easily see = exactly > what it relates to. >=20 > The best part about watching the recordings though, is 2x playback = speed :-) I have argued in the past that all of the media from IETF should be = available in non-proprietary formats as stream components for tools and = user interface people to combine them and use the components in more = user friendly ways than simply archiving everything in Youtube. I was told no to this. I think this is a mistake. The IETFers app used to be a significant user of the audio streams. I = provided live streaming as well as recorded playback of a session. This = was difficult because the stream info for a sessions was not = algorithmic. I had to release a new version of the app each meeting to = map stream numbers to rooms. I received tons of compliments on this and = people loved this feature. When this was the only reason left to release a new version of the app = for each meeting, I dropped the recordings but I always wanted to come = up with a way to re-instate this functionality because the low bandwidth = audio stream was so much more useful on a mobile device than the = youtube. It was possible to stream a session over cellular in your car = while the youtube would take significant bandwidth. Not only do I not want this to go away, I want all of the material to be = available in open formats. This includes: 1. audio (presenter in one channel, audience mics in another channel = would be even better) 2. slide video 3. speaker video 4. slide files It makes perfect sense that the number of people using this recently is = low. It=E2=80=99s difficult to use in its current form. It shouldn=E2=80=99= t be this way. Tom --Apple-Mail=_809C4E03-DCDF-419D-9CFA-EEEF39E2B743 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Oct 1, 2020, at 4:36 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


Adam Roach = <adam@nostrum.com> = wrote:
On = 10/1/2020 11:33 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
I understand.  I would request that the = mp4's that are produced and
uploaded to youtube be made = available via some other site as well.

I'd make the same request. A little = bit ago, I went to try to find the
audio stream for a = recent meeting, and was perplexed that the
recordings no = longer existed. I'm sympathetic to the concerns that
Michael= expressed; I also note that, even if you're willing to deal
with big tech platforms, the inability to download a local = copy of
material from YouTube is a very unfortunate = drawback.

Well, there tools that will do this, but youtube tries to = break them, I
think. = :-)

As an = aside: prior to the youtubization of sessions, it was possible to
grab the individual media components from the meetecho = recordings,
which was *even nicer*. For example, the = HRPCRG had a very interesting
spot in their session where = EFF's Eva Galperin gave a slide-free talk
that I shared = with some colleagues. In the old format, I could have
pointed to the speaker video stream, which would have been = nice. On
YouTube, the lack of slides meant that the = speaker view was rendered as
1/16th of the frame in the = upper-right-hand corner, while the remaining
15/16ths of = the screen was blank. I'm not necessarily asking for that
format to be restored, but it would make for a replacement of = the MP3
streams that isn't merely adequate, but actually = quite superior.

I agree it would be nice to have the media = components.
It might also = allow for interesting remixes later on.

Also the meetecho recording does not include the jabber/chat = view, the
participant = queue (to see who is speaking), or the vote/hum results.
So even = though you have jabber logs, it's difficult to easily see = exactly
what it = relates to.

The best part = about watching the recordings though, is 2x playback speed :-)

I have argued in = the past that all of the media from IETF should be available in = non-proprietary formats as stream components for tools and user = interface people to combine them and use the components in more user = friendly ways than simply archiving everything in Youtube.

I was told no to this. I think this is a = mistake.

The IETFers app used to be = a significant user of the audio streams. I provided live streaming as = well as recorded playback of a session. This was difficult because the = stream info for a sessions was not algorithmic. I had to release a new = version of the app each meeting to map stream numbers to rooms. I = received tons of compliments on this and people loved this = feature.

When this was the only = reason left to release a new version of the app for each meeting, I = dropped the recordings but I always wanted to come up with a way to = re-instate this functionality because the low bandwidth audio stream was = so much more useful on a mobile device than the youtube. It was possible = to stream a session over cellular in your car while the youtube would = take significant bandwidth.

Not only = do I not want this to go away, I want all of the material to be = available in open formats. This includes:

1. audio (presenter in one channel, audience mics = in another channel would be even better)
2. slide = video
3. speaker video
4. slide files

It makes perfect sense that the number of people = using this recently is low. It=E2=80=99s difficult to use in its current = form. It shouldn=E2=80=99t be this way.

Tom



= --Apple-Mail=_809C4E03-DCDF-419D-9CFA-EEEF39E2B743-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 15:02:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BB93A097D for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UixbNBJK6bpJ for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAA013A0983 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.196] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5080E1D63A; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:02:13 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1601589733; bh=BVAwJq5YbbTLc1x1A/u6TPmsYcypHgS1OXqaQUsH/HM=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:From; b=LV+urULzLZjAz9UmYX55pdwt9wwJAPMIawVzON/HHZI/7cgJRfgM3LfxziYZyaEA9 3VF+HdMo17+HWOkXdD9C6/MaPzF4DAKF/GRXtIZJcI41ncT7S40sV3CkP6E8QunCfA oqLQ7fTnTWs432Xfs8nfqZjxr7xqvOErVmkaXeJLlRjV1/zbc8jHc7LiWOdQenbozN MyIwLNhs8H/JazkV1bYh8keQJ8kUv1RJSuQfdn0j0foL8m0EnoDOa//DCKLrWWKpWP hgJQAJcLIpkr/ARiwT8mIFqrGKgz2DUi3ouoFpNtUdfrwPRZYFODf2nrsYTlRtEb4X k9w6iuJNxXT9g== From: Tom Pusateri Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FA1FEF6D-1CA1-4C45-A137-85245F2E39A6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:02:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" To: Tom Pusateri References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <21861.1601569998@localhost> <062d3200-418d-151e-c78b-e6c22a6656c5@nostrum.com> <13704.1601584581@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 22:02:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FA1FEF6D-1CA1-4C45-A137-85245F2E39A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 1, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Tom Pusateri = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Not only do I not want this to go away, I want all of the material to = be available in open formats. This includes: >=20 > 1. audio (presenter in one channel, audience mics in another channel = would be even better) > 2. slide video > 3. speaker video > 4. slide files Actually, even better would be an audio channel per microphone. I=E2=80=99= ve been doing machine learning on these audio files and when people = speak over each other, it=E2=80=99s hard to do silence detection and = word recognition correctly. Having a channel per mic would be so = helpful. Tom --Apple-Mail=_FA1FEF6D-1CA1-4C45-A137-85245F2E39A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Oct 1, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Tom Pusateri <pusateri=3D40bangj.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


Not only do I not want this to go away, I want all of = the material to be available in open formats. This includes:

1. audio (presenter in one channel, audience mics in = another channel would be even better)
2. slide video
3. = speaker video
4. slide files

Actually, even better would be an audio channel = per microphone. I=E2=80=99ve been doing machine learning on these audio = files and when people speak over each other, it=E2=80=99s hard to do = silence detection and word recognition correctly. Having a channel per = mic would be so helpful.

Tom


= --Apple-Mail=_FA1FEF6D-1CA1-4C45-A137-85245F2E39A6-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:07:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7D13A09F8; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zt3b7FfN-VKr; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf30.google.com (mail-qv1-xf30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF9F33A0A85; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf30.google.com with SMTP id cr8so312323qvb.10; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:06:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CESdW6J5pfUPnQ0oksC3RC4xBZuoD8BIIRU2afg85kM=; b=KI60Li+GrFY385QZefF6NwgZvbR40ijhj0wbfIMdV/xLiF66TN04SrVegjLKsqjUDY ftwDdtUEOP/1YIP5z1kgWuYGIiw3LuaTP1CeAL7Fke75XjxMnMgDW1gSt3KwoNTqm44u A0+7mIWtMIFaaQa1QpTutw/tqsXzMKzKjhaYAtneKb05NWS1i+2JbEYdUrq1T6EEVl+/ qx3nigZx4SLg7J/ZntPoB1zDtnkO5nMRnvaO1vDWBfj5Y55KiEkm3jMC2BOhYycsn5Wh RZ0AfGJ9yqEZccBPc9+W87OjO4bF7pufXX1Fx6MWcIzO5yCGEtMkwAJrAbMteFrmlkGR mAAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CESdW6J5pfUPnQ0oksC3RC4xBZuoD8BIIRU2afg85kM=; b=oqkCEqANSrNR6M3mPh4eZMRn206RuYGjn7pzEMNKwZ8V7ppj2LSYamSfMjVHSlR3Cb IISzXmpL9HAJ1sLorhBBDF7FNg1pNdQ2WQ4IMqnQA5auoREbISIpuuLZnzlnqRKFDE6k SASflsJUoINtzfkEkdsvYQ1Bo1B/sEYB2FNCskXVVjRAe5hjfQpfCqZRENr4QCdK/U9G 1GK/FBwFmUyVBguWq7ljV3wJ1eT9WQXVckdkRrPr748d5wDjFh8Y84ISsyn9mxiiSRJs FHQ2MCBV1+mWqwkB9BS+cmV01Y2x1P/IMT+jWlkGKkFsoRBNRrNDfImIOrLCNK7exVvC JCyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LfMTAHwAreuvzJbpnHsmTPhklqW/UfdQtQmYYDZJguDYm1PaQ wGbA2pTN8nM9tMS7pVpx8fTXHsfYrqdHbBpZb0tGkL/F X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTXYAlqSHo5ZeN8gW7rYtWX1SpW1Nf6JVMzlmTHcT1Op7SPI55zSmuWYZ1voTi8wSHicCoOJneoTrDSA3znTo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:8f2:: with SMTP id dr18mr10050019qvb.49.1601593614683; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:06:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 19:06:43 -0400 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush , Jay Daley Cc: Tools Discussion , RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a50e605b0a4123c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:07:15 -0000 --0000000000007a50e605b0a4123c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Randy and Jay, There's one thing that I think the current ecosystem is missing that I would really enjoy using. As I've been writing RFCs and drafts since the 1980s, you can guess that I've used a whole bunch of different tools, including editing raw NROFF, editing raw XMLv2 (I haven't yet tried that with XMLv3), using the Word template, and so on. What I've settled on at the moment is writing in Kramdown, which lets me concentrate more on the content than on the formatting. However, the one sourcing tool that I really enjoyed (and really miss) is nroffedit, which had two sides on the display, one showing the raw nroff and the other showing WYSIWYG formatted text, and both windows were instantly and synchronously updated as you edited in either. Having such a tool for either XMLv3 or Kramdown would be awesome! Cheers, Andy On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 12:55 PM Randy Bush wrote: > > I am not so sure what the value of asking what people do today is. The > > question that really matters is what people would do if they knew what > > all the options were. > > actually, i don't really buy this. what i use today differs from what i > use 10 or 20 years ago, and i presume similarly going forward. > > what we have today, is close to a classic hourglass model, with an xml > waist. you can produce that however the heck you want. and there seems > to be a rich set of tools to produce the xml. this seems a healthy > ecosystem to me. > > and from the xml, the rfced can produce all the output formats. > > some really sharp and hard-working folk have produced a rich ecosystem > of front ends. this is great, as long as they are compatible with the > back end. > > and we have a back end which is settling in from a major change. i > suspect we may not want to 'fix' it right now. > > hence my asking what all this is about. i am trying to produce work, > not chase this week's fashion in editing/formatting. > > randy > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > --0000000000007a50e605b0a4123c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy and Jay,

There's one thing th= at I think the current ecosystem is missing that I would really enjoy using= . As I've been writing RFCs and drafts since the 1980s, you can guess t= hat I've used a whole bunch of different tools, including editing raw N= ROFF, editing raw XMLv2 (I haven't yet tried that with XMLv3), using th= e Word template, and so on. What I've settled on at the moment is writi= ng in Kramdown, which lets me concentrate more on the content than on the f= ormatting.

However, the one sourcing tool that I r= eally enjoyed (and really miss) is nroffedit, which had two sides on the di= splay, one showing=C2=A0the raw nroff and the other showing=C2=A0WYSIWYG fo= rmatted text, and both windows were instantly and synchronously updated as = you edited in either. Having such a tool for either XMLv3 or Kramdown would= be awesome!

Cheers,
Andy
On Thu, O= ct 1, 2020 at 12:55 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> I am not so sure what the value of asking w= hat people do today is. The
> question that really matters is what people would do if they knew what=
> all the options were.

actually, i don't really buy this.=C2=A0 what i use today differs from = what i
use 10 or 20 years ago, and i presume similarly going forward.

what we have today, is close to a classic hourglass model, with an xml
waist.=C2=A0 you can produce that however the heck you want.=C2=A0 and ther= e seems
to be a rich set of tools to produce the xml.=C2=A0 this seems a healthy ecosystem to me.

and from the xml, the rfced can produce all the output formats.

some really sharp and hard-working folk have produced a rich ecosystem
of front ends.=C2=A0 this is great, as long as they are compatible with the=
back end.

and we have a back end which is settling in from a major change.=C2=A0 i suspect we may not want to 'fix' it right now.

hence my asking what all this is about.=C2=A0 i am trying to produce work,<= br> not chase this week's fashion in editing/formatting.

randy
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-intere= st@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/= rfc-interest
--0000000000007a50e605b0a4123c-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:14:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA423A09F4; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A9gQhz8Xb3KT; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CBCD3A09F8; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kO7md-0004SE-8y; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:14:43 +0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:14:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: Jay Daley , Tools Discussion , RFC Interest In-Reply-To: References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:14:49 -0000 > However, the one sourcing tool that I really enjoyed (and really miss) > is nroffedit, which had two sides on the display, one showing the raw > nroff and the other showing WYSIWYG formatted text, and both windows > were instantly and synchronously updated as you edited in either. funny. no desire. well, maybe for complex tables or similar kink. but when i am writing prose, i am focused on the wording, happy that emacs sprinkles the et alia, and i clean it up later. it's sufficiently hard to get clear and concise text, that i focus on it. in the hope it makes rfced's life a micro easier, i do put in time later to make pretty xml; probably much more than i should. i doubt a wysiwyg display would help. the major issue in prettification is bracketing; and emacs rulz. randy From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:16:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D7A3A09F4 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:16:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AYFXKhTJugEv for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D2gZKxEDJ6GK2AHzFl/fSYsVgs99rI/gpbAlYVUzTzg=; b=cUM1yPVIo4VXc+Sx6JIn3ftTA8O+erv8sAdGxaTKW2ByXWUiCSXaL0Eu0fdyppMRZf 6JwbsDNyQ9LoQde6SXV+qCE/qfaT4GtxGii/8hog5hXvBd+rxCAtqxSLNELqKv93q+rT +TL2/DyjDVfsEMnNQrYiq8VtHiGDv4cFN/G+FnHzuwWT4O/Vm6tzbJLic20IcLD5c/OV VUDkvTXWlCEDVlGgDSrJENvtNtswXZ0rOLNPKMCArJffz+uniW5pb7EeAwHiU7oa3ohE RGkz/Ah9p/2276ZO8Lb4Zqqn7eYTdNArrTndaaW9uwEYUzltSKOFw9CLqAOZaxnU9/iH I2iQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EP/EhJPGrJ2r2IQB98yHn4hgPrn3vmH0jmoxERNwC2D+BKHZO pv36HEORCXIp048jky5GALtKeDZcqUDrFFeyVP0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxufF/XVdkrY+ooOowPnVAVHhLhJHUXRj94zNDuto8SAhM3ZRDc+SQPb3+6T0YWLTX4pb0Itjz8rPe6Lsvw0D0= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e48:: with SMTP id s69mr4470862ilb.199.1601594199484; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:16:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 19:16:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:16:42 -0000 I use raw nroff and produce the input with emacs in nroff mode. Thanks, Donald On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 1:28 PM Randy Bush wrote: > > > In that context I was surprised to hear that a number of people author > > in XML and then use xml2rfc to convert to plain text and submit that > > plain text I-D. > > as i do that, i assumed most people did :) > > except for sean, of course, who still uses nroff :) :) > > randy > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:17:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDBF3A09F9 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=matrix.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKfbJfd559fH for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polemos.matrix.org (polemos.matrix.org [94.237.46.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1611A3A09F3 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; s=polemos; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=INYFA+1jLgdUn0d32HM5I/Uf9tnU00D8Wkp0Zl4oaoQ=; b=ny7Ad++q1DfcCBk0Q/JfQ+oqUK hbmEJZ9VXG3QbWaQHY/oQ6rRXr8TbjsPy3EVMtA9YiHgfdrdINudWfUkObieE7g9wPdd/7kfKa8l6 7hBC2Z/8xhzxVQYffVDHrf9adeZo27FW7O6p6asCu3P9GSRTlSXGhOhKQY8lO6GKetGVbOg2cY54K N4gCK4W7/pa3ti1cKI+ur2CQLxXpguPHNVICCU6jZWwVVi+MJX/FeMaBn7XfsfaZd/+l7CFDMDbVO YHwcETN9vSynp4ASYMoJreFNplIiyvDGCCLy/neBxnXnblGnHaGZPPcdwEpJjDDhXYKRs1JqqnG2H K4XDI6BQoONdoiowtbMCyEiuxI2FiSo9RBcORLJhqbHUGpVw+fIxkhmjChEBhsBjvGqtbqpwvs4no hdYBZRT9MslCR/rvnhDPvFxMOkxdMIIxRjFOqAc+irq/2toUHbNyQgLjh8Vl7FE1mBNIG5ndW/+K5 mz8wXchpXjRbS2UBCD7ZFGhRwtiwZpdVmmTJc6h5O7hKumpkHjJSWtLnIJNeL/vpzsIyGxmuFMOF4 OZ9PmKTSi7exCDMkdGkX/Dn8wLILC0+WAfiNnf8OPSYj+cblAmwLCTVXZFIjxUZRNHLUqoUWnSPdV R8dxQhh5WabXt+lQm3E41zwqj4jNpjkAp85iUe+R0=; Received: from cpc152095-haye27-2-0-cust2.17-4.cable.virginm.net ([82.40.93.3] helo=bucephalus.local) by polemos.matrix.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kO7p1-0002Ni-Et for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:17:11 +0000 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> From: Matthew Hodgson Message-ID: <47330051-85c1-7eb7-58a1-fe4b4f150da3@matrix.org> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:17:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:17:15 -0000 On 01/10/2020 16:47, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-10-01, at 16:25, Robert Sparks wrote: >> matrix-trial1.ietf.org. > OMG what is that riot-bot and why does it have to bother me with loud fake music. Apologies: this was a config error - riot-bot is an old and clunky "welcome bot" that we retired months ago, but apparently the sample config for Element is stale and so it got accidentally pulled into this trial deployment.  The config is now fixed. In other news, I'm the project lead for Matrix and we're super excited that IETF is trialling a deployment.  Folks at IETF-101 in London might dimly remember me doing a lightning talk to explain the project's mission, which is to provide an open standard for decentralised pubsub, with E2EE and decentralised message history.  It's like a more realtime version of NNTP, with open federation, freeform data, E2EE and byzantine fault tolerance. The protocol currently evolves using an open governance model under the aegis of The Matrix.org Foundation (a UK non-profit; https://matrix.org/foundation); with the spec itself living at https://matrix.org/docs/spec and the various proposed spec changes in flight at https://matrix.org/docs/spec/proposals. Once the biggest remaining bits of Matrix are resolved (hierarchical groups, threads, extensible profiles and extensible messages) then we hope to snapshot the standard for the longterm within a dedicated independent standards body such as IETF, assuming interest. Matrix itself is a global open network of about 22M users spread over >50K instances, ranging from the French govt to Mozilla, Wikimedia, KDE and countless smaller/personal servers.  We're also in the process of natively bridging Gitter into the network (https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix). Finally, in terms of clients: https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org is an instance of Element Web (a flagship client we build as https://element.io, the startup the Matrix core team formed in order to fund Matrix) - but there are *many* alternative excellent Matrix clients out there if Element isn't to your taste, e.g. weechat-matrix for TUI, or the incredibly light-weight Hydrogen client (alpha at https://hydrogen.element.io). We'd love for the trial to be successful, and are very happy to tweak/fix/build things based on any feedback folks have.  For instance, the a11y support in Element is entirely thanks to Mozilla's feedback.  The whole project is open source (Apache licensed) and we also very gladly accept contributions (e.g. all the i18n in Element was a community contribution).  There's currently some major work going on with improved groups, notifications and threading which hasn't landed in mainline Element, so if we need to hustle to get that merged so you can play with it please yell loudly and let us know.  I'll be hanging around in #trial1-feedback:matrix-trial1.ietf.org to answer any feedback, or you can find me at @matthew:matrix.org. thanks, Matthew -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:18:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72573A09F9 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P5Vc-WKklLnt for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 233F63A09F4 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kO7pq-0004X0-8x; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:18:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:18:01 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Donald Eastlake Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:18:06 -0000 > I use raw nroff and produce the input with emacs in nroff mode. surely there is someone even more primitive than we who does it with a stone xml tablet and a chisel :) From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:43:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000E43A0A13 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=matrix.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8OWC_b_FOlLc for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polemos.matrix.org (polemos.matrix.org [94.237.46.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0473A0A06 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; s=polemos; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ryK7y0V88J1pE5HRDveM2wuOAt7mH0O6+jx4+4FYtpQ=; b=APs/QRv4441C1QlaxfPNNr/14z 9UpPG/4mIrAwIQpjIXKkxwiMgLBkuKvBfgv6wG2cpgYak3UYZd46dAjOHbgpnySPkyQdHiOYV8SGv AtJiCAjfQBedxrsmvCyLq40mf5UjOmJqNnKP9AsF6/601AMOULZIBbVDOSCd0wZaXLHSvyjeKlsVb 3HtTG5WVKEpBTYf8+cyy+cq1Q33SHihwgvwyYZwRqDGwju+4TOUOAdruSyDs7NYUojDaJnOOZjTMp ZziifTCtrSa4P/abepqr4KHa+BiOZ1UkYUqkRpnfrArk2o89W0zp+HvtXTBT+mrCR4uWWHVa5R4Vh bsz/xtsprb29zcRe16L59UCm0nlWNJOhJ6Eukye0wdbpH5ebw/E7n5/JKb9plkfBAfyAW7lOd00rW ZITkksQkInMAOoHIgBs3X/z+f/hpViheCiwrQ1Pq2S32RM2T+9mhg0OcG/AAj83tNtZAJn8xTAQHZ tJUq8NwCo3mbH1KQ0qW0QVPGBb8SyyVXdM6NHPw2FY11WJ5XxbtHLyqMY9xKK3O2orLpzh7oydST2 eMGEl5ZmQh0mkslNBHY3S6pvKBaq02W/xE11c2qJ+Kp4M6xGW5cmLYaAiWEjT6ghyzoncAAzLklqy olWADZKtkNY7TZblHQ/HxVrYOmi6Z+PHeE1eEXG50=; Received: from cpc152095-haye27-2-0-cust2.17-4.cable.virginm.net ([82.40.93.3] helo=bucephalus.local) by polemos.matrix.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kO8EY-0002qY-Mn for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:43:34 +0000 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> From: Matthew Hodgson Message-ID: <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:43:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:43:38 -0000 On Oct 1, 2020, at 10:33, Robert Sparks wrote: > This does add to the potentially confusing large number of places conversation > might take place. We hope to address that with some level of bridging, at least > with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective development communities > that bridging between Zulip and Matrix is unsatisfying since the conversation > models in the two applications are so different. It's true that Zulip<->Matrix bridging is unsatisfactory currently.  Matrix actually has Zulip-style threading already under the hood (MSC2326: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc2326/proposals/2326-label-based-filtering.md), but Element and other clients haven't yet implemented UI for it. This should change in future however. > We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may revisit that > as an option as we continue to gather more feedback. On the other hand, XMPP<->Matrix bridging (and IRC<->Matrix bridging) is pretty good, and we maintain and run public bridges for both - which could provide continuity for those using Jabber. M -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From nobody Thu Oct 1 18:03:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892F73A0A84; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NqhcRYJxaVsX; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB2FB3A0A83; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kO9U7-000Kbf-AT; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 21:03:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 21:03:37 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org cc: manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <14FC90BA1260E306F5DB4D31@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 01:03:50 -0000 Out of a desire to stay out of this discussion, I sent a private note to Robert earlier today that I will not try to reprise here. However... --On Friday, October 2, 2020 08:42 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a >> session in real-time without paying a registration fee. >> >> There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the >> meeting registration structure. In the meantime, the fee >> waiver program is available and being >> improved. > > I don't think that's a tools-discuss decision alone. It's been > a significant point of principle discussed (e.g.) in SHMOO, > hence the extra CC. Right. And I think there are some very broad principles about who we are willing to disenfranchise, whether we are willing to insist that people give up privacy to observe our meetings; whether real-time observation is actually needed or whether people who just want to observe can watch or listen later; whether policies that require either registration fees that are not tied to ability to pay or asking for fee waivers are inherently discriminatory against, e.g., people from developing areas; how many people have to be pushed out before it is an issue (note the tie to Robert's "not many people are using the mp3 feed); etc. To me, there is also a small elephant lurking around the corners of the room having to do with just how serious we are about key discussions and decisions occurring on the mailing lists. My recollection about what I heard when the IETF got started --long before real-time remote participation was feasible for most people -- was that there was not a lot of concern about these issues, not because people were backward, but because it was very clear that meetings were about discussion and getting a shared understanding of the issues and how to explain them, not about "deciding" or even "agreeing". I suspect that a really pure form of that approach may be somewhat mythological, but the difference between even a watered-down version and the "decide in meeting, ask on mailing list if there are any significant objections" pattern we've seen frequently in recent years is still significant. However, I think my main point is similar to Brian's (if I correctly understand him): it is time we have discussions about principles and make decisions about them and then answer questions (probably easily) about what services we need to offer and how they should be arranged and/or delivered in terms of those principles. Making a decision about something like an mp3 feed (and a variety of other things) in isolation is unlikely to lead us to good places. > It seems to me that the principle of the fee waiver and when > it's ethical to use it is still not clear, and we don't know > whether it is financially viable in the medium to long term. > Until that's settled, I'm a bit uneasy about dropping the mp3 > streams, precisely because they do not need pre-registration. > (If meetecho had a "read only" or observer mode without > pre-registration, this problem would go away instantly.) Which, of course, Meetecho, in its IETF form, had in the original distinction between joining as an observer and as a participant until "we" decided to shut it off in the run-up to IETF 108 (or IETF 107 if not using Meetecho at all for that meeting counts). The problem is not what mode(s) are available but where we draw the dividing line about who gets a free ride. Personally I have a lot of difficulty justifying free mp3 live streaming but requiring that "read only" / observer Meetecho users pay, but YMMD. And I see parts of those things as both important but larger parts as just another symptom. We need to look at whether to make a distinction between observers and participants and whether the latter (at least) are pay to play... always, or only when a meeting is all-remote. We need to figure out if there is any real justification for requiring that observers be able to observe in real time and, if not, how much delay in getting video (and audio?) posted is tolerable. And so on. I think that, if we have answers to those sorts of questions of principle, most of the questions about live audio feeds and even fee waivers will largely fall out. best, john From nobody Thu Oct 1 23:29:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24F13A0E89 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 23:29:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ribose.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BP7rRV2yYMZG for ; 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Fri, 2 Oct 2020 10:19:06 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1601623146; bh=AefY02FsAO+AiCZGHQX0H3mvsEHhj7YT7sFtjGLC1LU=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=BXvp/aOFf1gWxePcBdfdobv77REQJ0cd8d/dz2DdsYPPoA9kagykjDjbrSU8zR+1c ZdOxU1WABprWA+H1pxQHNz334xJSmPRvhw9EQ9U2/Dt0lPS0msPRyCrOvv8zOiIP/K rOxNYqwyg0dgnoPEMZDEBIJ59/PlPMEEB7KnT+hk= From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_971723EB-87D3-4915-9D30-62977B55F397"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 10:19:04 +0300 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> Message-Id: <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 7084C6165E4.A07F3 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 07:19:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_971723EB-87D3-4915-9D30-62977B55F397 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2020-10-1, at 17:25, Robert Sparks wrote: > zulip-trial1.ietf.org. FWIW, my mail server is rejecting the account creation email from Zulip: 2020-10-02T10:16:29+03:00 Sampo postfix/smtpd[29630]: NOQUEUE: reject: = RCPT from unknown[2001:1900:3001:11::23]: 450 4.7.25 Client host = rejected: cannot find your hostname, [2001:1900:3001:11::23]; = from=3D = to=3D proto=3DESMTP helo=3D Lars --Apple-Mail=_971723EB-87D3-4915-9D30-62977B55F397 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl921GgACgkQVLXDCb9w wVccVw//ccylHBcMQCLanrgl3oSrLgBsI1o+ZN0Tm1aAC6HDn84wbElXdBsOOfLM DsBc1iPnxs8ogySy6sxLDiVgjRvm9Gw4ufWmH9yQtwEBD1JSmzigHf8ldL4+rNr+ NJQPTeZfeLuTtbxZhwKz8t1pcpekdMHqr2ZzwWpPku02bllrOZFIUrgvYxZ1U5Ke cpggdA4zhEFNi6tY7D5EvG6A8ir3sLzh/NW9xv5FaNMtBD1tEhVcBsXjcgX0K6Aq KJbfg/S2qfQndIdotFAQAAFFfFtsJtRFmYLNz+Llj+aoMwGujCVBMcunHD/IKCnq 17kZCfyz6e1M16WZHhAdFQhZz5WsP1j9Umc0mWkuX9E0gCVi0VYTkZBeFdgbGSu8 Tl0VFHfH8N4Jc9sDWb/wlr9kR78TepnMbCdiPcVPWeqhPiJnzOZSB646iCYmcvzy h7+aY1WeFcGYqV9+XxTVJkN2vWX+z/0XJwrVbPF7JJ7+XgyMOJjXw1AxcGm4hLq0 DvIq41z6ajB3NhWRRnQb9E/iWOw9N2OJ1Z/fmhu+iuJ5NOpNev37NmY9WqjQX/DF EWARhzQejbMdE76Nx8j3JnHGSnB5rQjA712fLD4/F0fkqe8s8Nb6pb6HDynp/7ab CI76uRerKKBGRcNp0nsPdPOziTMihFZEMrIQAYGHHEenNcB22cc= =/bpc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_971723EB-87D3-4915-9D30-62977B55F397-- From nobody Fri Oct 2 01:41:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C143A0F0A for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 01:41:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zoiUrcbcTmCN; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 01:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2601E3A0E0B; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 01:41:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <0CBB8BB9-D251-4841-8D1B-B2C29A28AD2D@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D7A9E05A-3745-4D3E-88A0-F13719729404" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 21:41:07 +1300 In-Reply-To: <3B086B7A-7DC7-424A-8267-5972904C561B@ribose.com> Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion To: Ronald Tse References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <3B086B7A-7DC7-424A-8267-5972904C561B@ribose.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 08:41:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D7A9E05A-3745-4D3E-88A0-F13719729404 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ronald > On 2/10/2020, at 7:29 PM, Ronald Tse wrote: >=20 > I imagine the stone XML tablet will not be easy to edit (the chisel = could erase, too!). >=20 > Jay, we are the people behind metanorma-ietf and AsciiRFC. This is a = timely and important survey indeed =E2=80=94 thanks! Thank you too. >=20 > I have two questions: >=20 > 1. Would it be possible to rephrase the particular choice of: > "AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) = converter=E2=80=9D >=20 > to: >=20 > "AsciiDoc using Metanorma / AsciiRFC=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m happy to add the 'AsciiRFC' part but is there a reason you = want the ' (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) ' removed? > ? >=20 > 2. For the question on "How often do you use the following checking = tools? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)=E2=80=9D >=20 > Can we add an option like: >=20 > =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know; my authoring tool seems to do that for = me" Unfortunately this doesn=E2=80=99t really make sense as an additional = option for that question. It=E2=80=99s a matrix question where people = answer each of the options with one of =E2=80=A2 Always =E2=80=A2 Very often =E2=80=A2 Sometimes =E2=80=A2 Rarely =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] Also, I don=E2=80=99t understand how this benefits us as the respondents = may or may not have a built-in checker they don=E2=80=99t know about - = can you explain the thinking behind it? cheers Jay >=20 > Ron >=20 >=20 > _____________________________________ >=20 > Ronald Tse > Ribose Inc. >=20 >> On Oct 2, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Randy Bush > wrote: >>=20 >>> I use raw nroff and produce the input with emacs in nroff mode. >>=20 >> surely there is someone even more primitive than we who does it >> with a stone xml tablet and a chisel :) >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_D7A9E05A-3745-4D3E-88A0-F13719729404 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ronald

On 2/10/2020, at 7:29 PM, Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> = wrote:

I imagine the stone XML tablet will not be easy to edit (the chisel = could erase, too!).

Jay, we are the people behind metanorma-ietf and = AsciiRFC.  This is a timely and important survey indeed =E2=80=94 = thanks!

Thank = you too.


I have two questions:

1. Would it be possible to rephrase the particular = choice of:
"AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as = asciidoctor-rfc) converter=E2=80=9D

to:

"AsciiDoc using Metanorma / = AsciiRFC=E2=80=9D

I=E2=80=99m happy to add the 'AsciiRFC' part but is = there a reason you want the ' (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) ' = removed?

?

2. For the question on "How often do you use the = following checking tools? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know = about)=E2=80=9D

Can we add an option like:

=E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know; my authoring tool seems = to do that for me"

Unfortunately this doesn=E2=80=99t really make = sense as an additional option for that question.  It=E2=80=99s a = matrix question where people answer each of the options with one = of

  =E2=80=A2 = Always
    =E2=80=A2 Very often
    =E2=80=A2 Sometimes
    =E2=80=A2 Rarely
    =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is = scored as 0]

Also, I don=E2=80=99t = understand how this benefits us as the respondents may or may not have a = built-in checker they don=E2=80=99t know about - can you explain the = thinking behind it?

cheers
Jay


Ron


_____________________________________

Ronald Tse
Ribose Inc.

On Oct 2, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> = wrote:

I use raw nroff and produce the = input with emacs in nroff mode.

surely there is someone even more primitive than we who does it
with a stone xml tablet and a chisel :)
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest= mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_D7A9E05A-3745-4D3E-88A0-F13719729404-- From nobody Fri Oct 2 02:20:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0D03A0F3E for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 02:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id goEZYh7ySSgo for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 02:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4715B3A0F3B for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 02:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C2kxB2Lt8zyjd; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:20:29 +0200 Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623323229.710204-a53e8dbd10d937b19a50d6157be00fe6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 09:20:37 -0000 On 2020-10-02, at 09:19, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > FWIW, my mail server is rejecting the account creation email from = Zulip: Same for me (I don=E2=80=99t have an error message, but I don=E2=80=99t = get the mails either). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Oct 2 06:25:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEF43A1619 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 06:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=matrix.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qN9EDgGfzIzn for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 06:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polemos.matrix.org (polemos.matrix.org [94.237.46.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D427F3A1617 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 06:25:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; s=polemos; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mGcA8EhHmE8P+BooWyxS2RAgeSNHfFgnNgur2ShLBHo=; b=euWE8aikkeFjqRVtcO7vJ3gL+6 63wioNqg6cLjBKsyw352fjueAHd5BNxFKXM+VtVj4+ANZkwmLM8X6AVbKXhs+LJ0v4di5Nj8sIFyt shpJq5WeB8dghXVeMOkko60Eh/PJS78/xhZSC7f5mAJ7H86q+khjbMhEsRc6z/K95Il8Q1aJIaJUJ 7yS2GDuChQUN7hUsikx3Evhmg9qN6pxs9Ms+MAy/jYzHgeBiejaEcbzKROA+il5peuThyJLmyYhZx 1Outuo5MZf0J/YHVr8qTUwgtxE5lz5iGdH1vtCL0zsT189qQ5RMIxde5/07meYRYCWGswv1ayxy+Z Ws6WRehIRmWeiexpfzZDM3nn7BB10qxgM61ThraN5Os40VutSCJR9y0jl+eK4KV4Tj17SgeiIKtMX yBz9bhjjVgLa8IRy6DEFeRRLx4zfPGHnWjgYwkECJ/IzzW/m79yOpLOImIaTweqp/zXQ+qdT08IR4 hEOnSbQ8r1Y52qoybUZvQ+fj11w4Vol7mlNtDopJrmRzK+/z64V6L5u9vAgRUdd0H4JqeR/6n+Npk c6V758F3VwUP84gyBpRlvdzo+iHjopYzENQlgo1+eLj6MUETRoL2awjfFRELaYTEeaijzRhZiZzrU zHC/kNTxUlVTShacQm4RLcCrtRBBgqlju/k9F/PU0=; Received: from [80.250.101.234] (helo=bucephalus.local) by polemos.matrix.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kOL3T-0004r5-DO for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 13:24:59 +0000 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> From: Matthew Hodgson Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:24:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 13:25:02 -0000 On 02/10/2020 00:43, Matthew Hodgson wrote: > On Oct 1, 2020, at 10:33, Robert Sparks wrote: > >> We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may >> revisit that >> as an option as we continue to gather more feedback. > > On the other hand, XMPP<->Matrix bridging (and IRC<->Matrix bridging) > is pretty good, and we maintain and run public bridges for both - > which could provide continuity for those using Jabber. To illustrate this, we've pointed xmpp:#ietf1-trial1-feedback#matrix.org@matrix.org (the public XMPP bridge that we run on the matrix.org server) through to #trial1-feedback:matrix-trial1.ietf.org on Matrix for those who prefer XMPP. M -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From jhsrdr@gmx.de Fri Oct 2 04:44:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D933A0F77 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 04:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_HTTP=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=1.927, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yyYk_6hxiCxY for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 04:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01D683A0F2E for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 04:44:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1601639066; bh=cLxcVQM34t5MxNA4MMGoV20ePlw6A3XsM6/iLdbA94U=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=N0VAjQFjsegV3J5YLtLQFlsFNZAQhyXgi4v+boCdKl0yxf8RI08JegXsnD4GmGR87 4fc2JwY6lZn/sZW4MY3Ua4HatEncc+U8nfnrB5rjAOHMRATJwbbmklbUPW4wa3bCty j+L8DStVNvbrC4pv3kOzW2LLwymlysFYCsiBns6I= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [10.8.0.166] ([84.63.109.131]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M26vB-1kQFQO3TRZ-002bGG for ; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 13:44:25 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> From: Johanna S Message-ID: <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:44:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zw63wkDUsF9BSrutYk3DGMqYFqcHLMQUcxEx04m5WX+Tymo4ZL8 TyuKNlkyg6JIWP57sodbjjnvD9wVERPzq4lwdQgax58wJXOi7LR5yIncaoEjANaicEaeY0C U+XABUvIxZBoubIqdAAPRCUwZo1azdKkEnH55mT2yrrzjakYv55F1I+4OscGp/t/bK8Ylxr gspvQ/T8e5D81jrJXfibQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dZ/B137H/zQ=:SZkvu6icTu5gl+8//FhvMM RibfwpFvwG+jz1Lkwf3WYZHtTOsTTWCvETsW6Rn5elf6pOLWODdr745OFepporYHKuqoNhOP9 RBAjDkmtRuUNCdR50DlYw02PDX5osEhrPH9uAvC6DgPiPp0e1W8w4XJJVdMoQPzxyuSfihMUa eeojivFLAE1cLDNKiyoYeyXw3rmMy7IXaDyUAx0NEvmQtyK+zaxfjcdiencCPCaDv7OzMVD41 MalH5BMCdau4yuMKelA4sozcaq5DJikFumf4RuobHCpMnLXw/GPMr6lkg5YCY5DqMyBXI9n/c WDXPe2hkZ6ffBH72vVIuj1+pN+KVB39bjLwsoMnjHxHcIR6sLCkZf1+yNV4rnupfDd85MrJ3O DAWCFUcwqMGZ6nWNKaHKr9eAStnJPwrq6UG1mvGPeZfFkT+qaEoKTQNs7ryi5pVw7aeOphi2d u9VG39qL9QCl2noQnhpUmxjPw0X6Rt0QPAozW6TEq2SGR9mDsu8qeiOOSCiI8ifVtY1GYkHaf k7jYdDTXxny63uxrvrIlblGJlBqi8BDnlSfpehBpQnPQt06lbmGxzb3gMPuBwWps2ONvYS1Yt 9t68ekzKTWCI4fUny2+onPj2hDFQd3RbYI9jPYeQeGv0RZ3s9gwwkkXE3QE/7TfmyD1X3+cZS KEY4BQeofeSZl3VTRji6EYfKx7rf07e6EX6kuFjAA8FBoM61q+zSMpoG6HzH6j/Q7YhK8/6jY +e7vCtCgg58mJJcYDlNbfjL9unaliu4U3PV2XklJWrT9s5/wk7KLjaVDtX56vGWT4eePGeX8s 6Xn+uweETb340+STnTeGTKp9xvj0v9SvsQo5VTpmUwrXJ7VpjTKUCnUn8gBotM6p2ly5mhUJH Rk9t805tF3D89GLYEe5k6RcrdU0SLs1E3CD1+7Mry8TCIBvPzQWLC1gkCRB0+Ndex3+iwYkg+ 66Q/SBIX1uQl58hZFKZZ0iSm7Dh1ZEjZt8s5h+MBgDyo1BktQ587W/YIRvKW0lV+hLvcUzZbJ 3KfjPZ9qZCCGzjQlkb6wHhqeQgarnoJhSO/VKn+tC/HOPD9EMqSXAIu2spo/iO5WzijMJOb88 ZgbwMYsqbqCIih7N+F6pwq2qItS5QBmo6ZgAYrUvwcNSNdmaR1/6GN2oRhIDdXsVdFT/Xq+n6 +rLpemoeRq0rHU3fkFWaagKKd1q5DdZhP2CH6u3JbNKbrOKzTL05LZ9DNwS/95VJ32CHmmrij MftjjXLgmzFHS7B+Y Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 08:37:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 11:46:10 -0000 On 02.10.20 01:43, Matthew Hodgson wrote: > On the other hand, XMPP<->Matrix bridging is pretty good Not sure if that was meant as a funny joke or if you ever actually tried to use that bridge from the XMPP side. It has such severe bugs that it is hardly usable with any modern XMPP client. You can't even leave a room [1]. I know several server operators that blacklisted the gateway because its non-compliance caused problems with clients. A good bridge is standard-compliant and gives good UX *on both sides* of the bridge, not only on the Matrix side. In my experience, the bot-based bridging approach (like Matterbridge) is a better way to do a XMPP<->Matrix bridge than the bifrost bridge, when looking from the XMPP side - because at least everything works as it should and is standard-compliant, even if every message got an ugly prefix. I have hard times understanding how Matrix folks praise their XMPP bridge while at the same time XMPP people tell you that the bridge is working really *really* bad. If Matrix.org was a for-profit company, I'd tend to say it's just empty marketing claims to fraud customers. Johanna [1] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/53 From nobody Fri Oct 2 08:40:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C633A165F for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.122 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBbnwk2oFe1x for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7E6C3A165D for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2D323C13C0 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C267D3C13BD for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:04 -0700 (PDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: <756154ef-8fca-402f-c7e7-7410ec0924cd@amsl.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:08 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 15:40:14 -0000 I will poke the reverse DNS people about this, and I will see if I can come up with a quicker solution for this today. Glen On 10/2/2020 02:20, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-10-02, at 09:19, Lars Eggert wrote: >> >> FWIW, my mail server is rejecting the account creation email from Zulip: > > Same for me (I don’t have an error message, but I don’t get the mails either). > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Fri Oct 2 09:28:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528013A1103; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:28:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.913 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.913 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) by VI1PR07MB4560.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:66::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3455.13; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 16:28:27 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6165:9c1c:e5b1:15db]) by VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6165:9c1c:e5b1:15db%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3455.013; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 16:28:27 +0000 To: Jay Daley References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion From: tom petch Message-ID: <5F775526.9060606@btconnect.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 17:28:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; 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The adoption of the v3 XML as the RFC publication format in September 2019 has meant a significant increase in costs as the RPC has to convert plain text or v2 XML submissions into v3. > > In that context I was surprised to hear that a number of people author in XML and then use xml2rfc to convert to plain text and submit that plain text I-D. Jay Perhaps they do not know what they are doing. Perhaps I do not know what I am doing! I am a very occasional submitter. I edit in plain text (Wordpad), usually starting with a previous submission so much of the XML is there, add new XML as needed (YANG made me comfortable with XML) and then go to datatracker submit which rejects me a few times for syntax errors after which I succeed and get an e-mail to tell me so. I have always assumed that it is the XML that is submitted but your statement makes me wonder if in fact I am submitting plain text. I do not know, I cannot tell. I do not know what box to tick in the questionaire. Plain text with XML markup and datatracker submit '.xml format'. Tom Petch > After my first draft it became clear that this had to loop in the tools teams as the survey could not focus on formats without also covering tools as the two are so closely linked. > >> >> and, as you started it, jay, i wonder what toolchain you use to author >> drafts? > > The last time I authored a draft was in 2013 and I wrote that in XML using the OxygenXML commercial XML editor with xml2rfc to validate it. I dont remember what format I used to submit it. That draft btw was all about XML/XSLT. https://datatracker.ietf.org/person/Jay%20Daley > > Jay > > >> >> randy >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > From nobody Fri Oct 2 14:41:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFDD3A16F2; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2xypYBjPOfu; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 625C93A0937; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kOSni-0005qP-QE; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 21:41:14 +0000 Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 14:41:14 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: tom petch Cc: Jay Daley , rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: <5F775526.9060606@btconnect.com> References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <5F775526.9060606@btconnect.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 21:41:22 -0000 > I have always assumed that it is the XML that is submitted but your > statement makes me wonder if in fact I am submitting plain text. I do > not know, I cannot tell. I do not know what box to tick in the > questionaire. Plain text with XML markup and datatracker submit '.xml > format'. fellow routing researchers used to tell me that the topology obeyed some simple rules (known as gao rexford). i insisted that, for the most part, reality was not so simple. for years it was almost a war. finally, one researcher measured it, and indeed, 65% of the topology was not obeying those simple rules. her conclusion was that all those hundreds of configuration knobs were there because someone wanted each and every one enough that vendors implemented them. and so each and every one was used. i presume i do not need to explain the analogy. randy From nobody Fri Oct 2 15:47:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F833A1715 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:47:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.122 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ti3tRwk43-73 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB00B3A1707 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 611E63C138F for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F6EA3C138E for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> <756154ef-8fca-402f-c7e7-7410ec0924cd@amsl.com> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:47:31 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <756154ef-8fca-402f-c7e7-7410ec0924cd@amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 22:47:35 -0000 I've changed the email routing on the Zulip instance, and both of you should have received your messages just now. Future email *should* work, and we'll keep an eye on it... Glen On 10/2/2020 08:40, Glen wrote: > I will poke the reverse DNS people about this, and I will see if I can > come up with a quicker solution for this today. > > Glen > > On 10/2/2020 02:20, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2020-10-02, at 09:19, Lars Eggert wrote: >>> >>> FWIW, my mail server is rejecting the account creation email from Zulip: >> >> Same for me (I don’t have an error message, but I don’t get the mails >> either). >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Fri Oct 2 16:54:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739433A1757 for ; 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Fri, 02 Oct 2020 16:54:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> <5DAD19A4-533D-42FE-8848-B53DBD60836D@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <5DAD19A4-533D-42FE-8848-B53DBD60836D@ietf.org> From: Warren Kumari Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:54:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6e81505b0b8da7c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 23:54:41 -0000 --000000000000c6e81505b0b8da7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 4:21 PM Jay Daley wrote: > It was on there with pretty much that wording but in response to feedback > I changed it to just "XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin" - does tha= t > work or should I revert? > Good lord, I *swear* I read that list multiple times and it wasn=E2=80=99t = there.... Any wording is fine. Sorry, W > > On 2/10/2020, at 9:17 AM, Warren Kumari wrote: > > Can we add: XMLMind with the xml2rfc-xxe plugin > to the "document format(s) and associated output process(es)" list? > > This plugin was originally created by Billo, and I took over > maintenance many years back I don't know how many people still use it, > but there are howls of outrage everytime a new version of XMLMind > comes out and I don't release a new version in time. > This will at least help me know if it is still worth my time to rev > and post it... > > W > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 1:09 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > The updated survey is below. Please note that > > - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links > - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats page > - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. > > Further feedback is most welcome. > > Jay > > # Question Plan > > [PAGE] > Introduction > > [HELPTEXT] > Thank you for taking part in this survey. This survey has been sent to > everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years > and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D. > > We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author I-Ds= , > from drafting to submission. > > In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or non-use) > of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication format for RF= Cs > on 16 September 2019. > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds > not versions of the same I-D)? > If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the details. > =E2=80=A2 0 > =E2=80=A2 1-5 > =E2=80=A2 6-10 > =E2=80=A2 11-20 > =E2=80=A2 21-50 > =E2=80=A2 51+ > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new draf= t > and a new version) to the Datatracker? > Items > =E2=80=A2 0 > =E2=80=A2 1-10 > =E2=80=A2 11-20 > =E2=80=A2 21-50 > =E2=80=A2 50-100 > =E2=80=A2 101+ > Scale > =E2=80=A2 In total > =E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018) > =E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019) > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > How many RFCs have you authored? > =E2=80=A2 0 > =E2=80=A2 1-5 > =E2=80=A2 6-10 > =E2=80=A2 11-20 > =E2=80=A2 21-50 > =E2=80=A2 51+ > > > [PAGE] > Drafting to submission > > [LOGIC] > Only get here if they have authored an I-D. > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated > output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? > (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup > =E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter > =E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 XML using the xml2rfc-xxe editor plugin > =E2=80=A2 XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission > =E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as > asciidoctor-rfc) converter > =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using the lyx2rfc editor plugin > =E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor > =E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template > =E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process > =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template (RFC5= 385) > =E2=80=A2 .doc/.docx using a different output process (This means > specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will > recognise) > =E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a di= fferent > format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you author in a= nd > what output process you use] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the quest= ion above then > please specify what it is? > > [QUESTION - Checkboxes] > How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output > process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply) > =E2=80=A2 I researched the tools > =E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose a = tool that > uses that > =E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF meet= ing > =E2=80=A2 Another author of my document chose for me > =E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted in= one of > these tools > =E2=80=A2 Someone else helped me set up my tools > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-D? > (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC > =E2=80=A2 A template from https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/ > =E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring tool/proce= ss > =E2=80=A2 My own > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often do you use the following checking tools? (Ignore any you don=E2= =80=99t > know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 I validate against the RelaxNG schema for the RFC XML in= my XML > editor > =E2=80=A2 Bill=E2=80=99s ABNF parser to check ABNF > =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission > =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors > =E2=80=A2 pyang to check YANG modules > =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker > =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts > =E2=80=A2 SMICng to check MIBs > =E2=80=A2 smilint to check MIBs > =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance > =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML > =E2=80=A2 YANG validator to check YANG modules > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How often do you use the following conversion tools? (Ignore any you don= =E2=80=99t > know about) > Items > =E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml ref= erences > =E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown > =E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences to = two spaces > =E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML > =E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML to another format > =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc to convert RFC XML to another format > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Always > =E2=80=A2 Very often > =E2=80=A2 Sometimes > =E2=80=A2 Rarely > =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] > > [QUESTION - Checkboxes] > How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply) > =E2=80=A2 Locally > =E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server > =E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service > =E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Do you run an automated build process? > =E2=80=A2 Yes - I-D Template > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using GitHub CI/CD > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Gitlab CI/CD > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using Jenkins > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Using CircleCI > =E2=80=A2 Yes - Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > =E2=80=A2 No > > > [PAGE] > XML v3 > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format? > =E2=80=A2 Excellent > =E2=80=A2 Good > =E2=80=A2 Fair > =E2=80=A2 Poor > =E2=80=A2 None > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XML > format? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Features > =E2=80=A2 Documentation > =E2=80=A2 Tools support > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format to > you? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Features > =E2=80=A2 Documentation > =E2=80=A2 Tools support > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very important > =E2=80=A2 Important > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Unimportant > =E2=80=A2 Very unimportant > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format? > > > [PAGE] > State of the current authoring tools landscape > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring > tools? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes > =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata > =E2=80=A2 Control of output > =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats > =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems > =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added > =E2=80=A2 Overall quality > =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Satisfied > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to you= ? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Ease of use > =E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes > =E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata > =E2=80=A2 Control of output > =E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats > =E2=80=A2 Integration with version control systems > =E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added > =E2=80=A2 Overall quality > =E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very important > =E2=80=A2 Important > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Not important > =E2=80=A2 Not at all important > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice] > Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts? > =E2=80=A2 Strongly agree > =E2=80=A2 Agree > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Disagree > =E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree > > [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] > How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following > authoring formats? > Items > =E2=80=A2 Plain text > =E2=80=A2 Markdown > =E2=80=A2 XML > =E2=80=A2 nroff > =E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc > =E2=80=A2 Some form of WYSIWYG (e.g. MS Word or LibreOffice) > =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] > Scale > =E2=80=A2 Very important > =E2=80=A2 Important > =E2=80=A2 Neutral > =E2=80=A2 Not important > =E2=80=A2 Not at all important > =E2=80=A2 N/A > > [QUESTION - Comment Box] > Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats? > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --000000000000c6e81505b0b8da7c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdj48YnI+PC9kaXY+PGRpdj48YnI+PGRpdiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxfcXVvdGUiPjxkaXYgZGly PSJsdHIiIGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9hdHRyIj5PbiBUaHUsIE9jdCAxLCAyMDIwIGF0IDQ6MjEgUE0g SmF5IERhbGV5ICZsdDs8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86amF5QGlldGYub3JnIj5qYXlAaWV0Zi5vcmc8 L2E+Jmd0OyB3cm90ZTo8YnI+PC9kaXY+PGJsb2NrcXVvdGUgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3F1b3RlIiBz dHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luOjAgMCAwIC44ZXg7Ym9yZGVyLWxlZnQ6MXB4ICNjY2Mgc29saWQ7cGFkZGlu Zy1sZWZ0OjFleCI+PGRpdiBzdHlsZT0id29yZC13cmFwOmJyZWFrLXdvcmQ7bGluZS1icmVhazph ZnRlci13aGl0ZS1zcGFjZSIgZGlyPSJhdXRvIj5JdCB3YXMgb24gdGhlcmUgd2l0aCBwcmV0dHkg bXVjaCB0aGF0IHdvcmRpbmcgYnV0IGluIHJlc3BvbnNlIHRvIGZlZWRiYWNrIEkgY2hhbmdlZCBp dCB0byBqdXN0ICZxdW90O1hNTCB1c2luZyB0aGUgeG1sMnJmYy14eGUgZWRpdG9yIHBsdWdpbiZx 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(No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D763A0ABD for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 16:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.zash.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C3B26E2F2D; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 01:58:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 01:58:49 +0200 From: Kim Alvefur To: Matthew Hodgson Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201002235848.jag4ydwjxvuj2n4l@carcharodon.zash.se> References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fnuoatzssgosubzt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 23:59:01 -0000 --fnuoatzssgosubzt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 02:24:59PM +0100, Matthew Hodgson wrote: >To illustrate this, we've pointed=20 >xmpp:#ietf1-trial1-feedback#matrix.org@matrix.org (the public XMPP=20 >bridge that we run on the matrix.org server) through to=20 >#trial1-feedback:matrix-trial1.ietf.org on Matrix for those who prefer=20 >XMPP. It does not appear to be working, getting a cancel:service-unavailable error back. --=20 Kim "Zash" Alvefur XMPP Standards Foundation Council member Pros=C5=8Fdy IM server developer --fnuoatzssgosubzt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEPlIRnvhTxZZ4279rre2ad7Z60ykFAl93vrgACgkQre2ad7Z6 0ynIURAAm+8dZW0GjObRxUBmgNNhFGvE4Dk3Yk8HJ2cODYfD7O+tN5GVAkLPGgBp 16mghbwTpMffV4YlN7R1r9ZQFYaydPqJ/sie8BZlRDjGuCIVrQdHKo1AOE367+mJ Xgye2IgqoVMlzwFu9d0sNNw+AO0iKt7FF7ImgfdP1eS5fLLbUtx3W4e+uxKu/HaG Uty0LQD8dKBnNE3n8ciWU+ENM4A3tcGMguyFL0Pg7ohHKuYfh5ozQxpUJLZG4+yt q5IzhP39nSeH5ZejV1Qk2+TY1rA5ObkEHwZ1vgtPmwkwfWdFJOkC/PN6cfYQ+Qm/ Lr6gf0nDceEinw6qDXJqVhDhEjYCpLmR8invb7yYHKKKGzlTSR10z0UJ2jWWlF54 UgnPL+fW18+Xf+WfkYomaNcQ2yydZx7KcR5V6EA19BJ8wCNutVWjhhPMPAttT6Xk 1Y9/54uwCBgrVqvwnFYJz5c1yHb4xUyqeoFJk0UY0wjwEFw6yWLp1Xh26dY1qgHG Jdz1/o1Ab9jFGDD5lzvcEul/A1yYlbHkPkXuLc7AGuWB7/b1HN5NKZyoVAsKQ+KJ 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DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=matrix.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9K5DC2hoCIBC for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polemos.matrix.org (polemos.matrix.org [94.237.46.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB1BB3A0A1D for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 11:59:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; s=polemos; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: 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([82.40.93.3] helo=bucephalus.local) by polemos.matrix.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kOmkT-0007WJ-6p for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Oct 2020 18:59:13 +0000 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <20201002235848.jag4ydwjxvuj2n4l@carcharodon.zash.se> From: Matthew Hodgson Message-ID: <35494b2c-26a8-431e-5ead-53815deacd96@matrix.org> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 19:59:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201002235848.jag4ydwjxvuj2n4l@carcharodon.zash.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 18:59:17 -0000 On 03/10/2020 00:58, Kim Alvefur wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 02:24:59PM +0100, Matthew Hodgson wrote: >> To illustrate this, we've pointed >> xmpp:#ietf1-trial1-feedback#matrix.org@matrix.org (the public XMPP >> bridge that we run on the matrix.org server) through to >> #trial1-feedback:matrix-trial1.ietf.org on Matrix for those who >> prefer XMPP. > > It does not appear to be working, getting a cancel:service-unavailable > error back. Ugh, sorry - typo on my side; the correct JID for the MUC is xmpp:#ietf-trial1-feedback#matrix.org@matrix.org.  I just tested from Adium and it seems to be working correctly. M -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From nobody Sat Oct 3 12:51:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1403A0141 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 12:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=matrix.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cq0wuox7Rxs3 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polemos.matrix.org (polemos.matrix.org [94.237.46.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEC273A0140 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; s=polemos; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=HPBzc+9L2d7QqhpzVDyvd2UWXTyirAp6CLdiJHjcr0U=; b=I3yBLnZPlVut7aJOwIvGj+o257 MMG7rx4+ufTPJ5egZ/1SASkO3g0/FPi1ppz2H6DMo0Y2/wa4KAGibxbMucLbSakrbvPY103nJOdQS aZIcRksX8TWuw+RGP9s9k5jHwfsW6+2ArYTAUhRMwNmLNwQHvrVmnvLyr0DS/g8v3JSsxLvz3ge3E GHNeq88ozAQxm2sFYW/V3PU2OZdE3dwkdqpA0Ip8tWRANweJjt+izodZCbMqefSp1R+FjwY0YbVCw aXK2rzC2CPyuejxK7Gt7i/x5uydEHInMvqiL6Y9+3GvBdHQhuyJOFQKKz5whlZk8u1of0G12BaG7a k01why+Mq2A/xM2IOrbh/9/V9J+EvV8yBcOopZOmqnDrAFdYytSexsJWqX8RlNOhzNQI9lMft+UP6 znh55akdzMbzE7QNS2aoEr9gRNNHzL+u2v9CqsPWa/vE6cXezOiAPqfwqT2sykBQVzUrUEFBlBdSG fVzCBFjJVVLJpcVc4fMSw6EiHPpmvd6Rc0KWIkCemPc2nWR5MqFTAVlmERT91ra82n/zRFJG2eHPp JKNS7LA6+l+yxweX1bfcDWBf/IJWtSWxuabFcIER8a3KRpkcSdNEBWNJWpwQ8aBasS46u/FpZ1Tt5 NU+ItNkOJH0gXMYgEqQDZHfa1w0UdXk9xgHC01suw=; Received: from cpc152095-haye27-2-0-cust2.17-4.cable.virginm.net ([82.40.93.3] helo=bucephalus.local) by polemos.matrix.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kOnYs-0008Rw-1x for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Oct 2020 19:51:18 +0000 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> From: Matthew Hodgson Message-ID: <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:51:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 19:51:21 -0000 On 02/10/2020 12:44, Johanna S wrote: > On 02.10.20 01:43, Matthew Hodgson wrote: >> On the other hand, XMPP<->Matrix bridging is pretty good > Not sure if that was meant as a funny joke or if you ever actually tried > to use that bridge from the XMPP side. I've used it with Adium and Pidgin on and off and it's worked adequately.  There have been some stability bugs recently, but we have one high profile user for whom we're currently trying to get it production grade (two, if you include IETF). > It has such severe bugs that it > is hardly usable with any modern XMPP client. You can't even leave a > room [1]. I know several server operators that blacklisted the gateway > because its non-compliance caused problems with clients. Weird; I can leave MUCs fine with Adium, and it doesn't SPIM me. I'm talking to ge0rg on #bifrost:matrix.org to try to understand that bug (it's not exactly helpful that the debug logs have been deleted). > A good bridge is standard-compliant and gives good UX *on both sides* of > the bridge, not only on the Matrix side. In my experience, the bot-based > bridging approach (like Matterbridge) is a better way to do a > XMPP<->Matrix bridge than the bifrost bridge, when looking from the XMPP > side - because at least everything works as it should and is > standard-compliant, even if every message got an ugly prefix. I would expect that technologies designed specifically for bridging (XMPP Components, and the Matrix Application Service API respectively) should give infinitely better results than a bodge like Matterbridge... assuming the proper bridge isn't buggy, of course. > I have hard times understanding how Matrix folks praise their XMPP > bridge while at the same time XMPP people tell you that the bridge is > working really *really* bad. If Matrix.org was a for-profit company, I'd > tend to say it's just empty marketing claims to fraud customers. Clearly I've misunderstood how much XMPP people dislike the bridge. All I can say is:  * We have (as of the last week) a high profile user who needs to use it in production, which is triggering an overdue wave of maintenance - and the possibility of it being useful for IETF gives us even more reason to improve it.  * By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of it. IETF is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is off the cards anyway.  So, it just pushes IETF back towards Slack, or perhaps Zulip, whose XMPP bridging is unavoidably limited (aiui) due to the different threading semantics.  In other words: both XMPP and Matrix lose - rather than using the opp here as a catalyst to actually improve the bridge, and thus keep XMPP part of the IETF use case. So, please consider that Matrix and XMPP are on the same side here: the enemy is the proprietary vendor-locked silos - not other open communication protocols.  We should be working together to improve interop and bridging, rather than trying to put each other down. Matthew -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From nobody Sat Oct 3 18:13:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC5A3A0A70 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 18:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id STh-TYLfB3XB for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 18:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8509D3A098D for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 18:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD45389C6; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 21:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3eY77rPnXaNM; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 21:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0F33899D; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 21:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF8D18B; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 21:13:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Tom Pusateri , "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <21861.1601569998@localhost> <062d3200-418d-151e-c78b-e6c22a6656c5@nostrum.com> <13704.1601584581@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 01:13:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Pusateri wrote: > When this was the only reason left to release a new version of the app > for each meeting, I dropped the recordings but I always wanted to come > up with a way to re-instate this functionality because the low > bandwidth audio stream was so much more useful on a mobile device than > the youtube. It was possible to stream a session over cellular in your > car while the youtube would take significant bandwidth. I would have liked that option back in 2018. > Not only do I not want this to go away, I want all of the material to > be available in open formats. This includes: > 1. audio (presenter in one channel, audience mics in another channel > would be even better) 2. slide video 3. speaker video 4. slide files > It makes perfect sense that the number of people using this recently = is > low. It=E2=80=99s difficult to use in its current form. It shouldn=E2= =80=99t be this > way. Maybe Robert could detail what the challenge was in the retooling. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl95IccACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVtsgf/YronMmtp1gjXaKbBC5/ySlZ5iTB2dM6dWM4KqK7UoMhOyvuPlX7jEHJt 0BtvK67EjfKSrOr+rP02h04PKNDCziQFwVfWRVh+GzeLpkd6gA26X3wKNzaNRM5j LakelC51HtjvFC1yl7NzSJgNv+NcnW7K23EiGFAf0YqB56CLWyKssYmx8j2Ola3m E/9/zFZ/V+phiGZXyoVw1/uepOEAHAOhXJryoYJGFsGSrrOwMGmzkK4gdR9etrxk oVustmUlIfDFSxMSlgtZEmZ0eRRaKvb8qruIT4Z9Tii5jd9VG9bWJGaf1w4wpYJ0 IVGOJ4Y0w1gSXCls9+g2FbJbFCqbjg== =0Wxo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Oct 3 20:11:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0283A0ACB; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5wAMoQz1RPgy; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1123A0AC8; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id z19so6863582lfr.4; Sat, 03 Oct 2020 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HK3DjURIm2iHr0p2e021ShJIlScj56CWNwVJs0BfSiY=; b=TGckOMK0PkuENWJz0gn/2U4yKmutiqcbhNMn0CXtkZjnF0sjh6zgxzVr4fSDunxUyJ 0WWVqRTqXJIJFCzMJuGsZxIUggo8tfhOuPM/r7lYJFXEoiu1K7p07uYbZ1E7um18gSas 6up0K2jKyVjEN3rlQg4G1lpMbo/QXFegC6e+9p4ViFD911gyrqvio3tK7hm9lW0qKUdd WQOHZO1WVbwYa+fcSHfAwzIqgbHmscbwpSwNDFwRaMoIVelfa2nVIFbNaMow7bhpUkiQ QjbLMP1VwN1+4EOHVhVhK3hK/kKit6MaDLwNARGE1cE0ltkvVatQ7qnHYQaZF0qUVC7r l+Pw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HK3DjURIm2iHr0p2e021ShJIlScj56CWNwVJs0BfSiY=; b=gHUETNGXXkrki7CrRLKfExRyh+CaoTpRTFFKJXkPBcq1OgZvB4e2+r1FHffMlHzbGB MdCW0XKkqUtrbB2LxdMuiHPCWycdFRggEqYp0wOTkQRM7UQ+3iUVAYex0m0gEZqJWLEc Os5tG4J/fi3UcmOSJ5j+znWu3TXkRmOpQxWDLeP3e8+xlZzVakyfTyJKk14iDjXpLe9i 1wqhtZ2ne3XF33MzAGvA+/2tnHXdiE3EpdPk+YlOfo2rHNfCU2U5TM2EmFwB8YA9S6NY Ea6lhNv4ZPDUoSzYyKfhMulZeQDSbcQ1nRP8e5muj1uJ0tLH0YIne6vaqy8ZnXmQdl8P Krgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530bFHZFmGDBMzkq8bF8Fm9/NdSPZqzsR0UVTtKVWVG07eC5QmRZ vVHlV0EQyGf1Os7qmJLmRgX8LO8LH1gBmX6nInc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyMJ4UOFVn7h78QRyJa6hNEo4SdSAZb5gwZUYB65/DZYUDGJ/e1fQB54FO4Hl2/4O7DLRKDfTy8Pwy9H/L6WzQ= X-Received: by 2002:a19:ed15:: with SMTP id y21mr3737616lfy.570.1601781087622; Sat, 03 Oct 2020 20:11:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <14FC90BA1260E306F5DB4D31@PSB> In-Reply-To: <14FC90BA1260E306F5DB4D31@PSB> From: Watson Ladd Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:11:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: John C Klensin Cc: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 03:11:32 -0000 On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 9:03 PM John C Klensin wrote: > > Out of a desire to stay out of this discussion, I sent a private > note to Robert earlier today that I will not try to reprise > here. However... > > --On Friday, October 2, 2020 08:42 +1300 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > >> * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a > >> session in real-time without paying a registration fee. > >> > >> There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the > >> meeting registration structure. In the meantime, the fee > >> waiver program is available and being > >> improved. > > > > I don't think that's a tools-discuss decision alone. It's been > > a significant point of principle discussed (e.g.) in SHMOO, > > hence the extra CC. > > Right. And I think there are some very broad principles about > who we are willing to disenfranchise, whether we are willing to > insist that people give up privacy to observe our meetings; > whether real-time observation is actually needed or whether > people who just want to observe can watch or listen later; > whether policies that require either registration fees that are > not tied to ability to pay or asking for fee waivers are > inherently discriminatory against, e.g., people from developing > areas; how many people have to be pushed out before it is an > issue (note the tie to Robert's "not many people are using the > mp3 feed); etc. > > To me, there is also a small elephant lurking around the corners > of the room having to do with just how serious we are about key > discussions and decisions occurring on the mailing lists. My > recollection about what I heard when the IETF got started --long > before real-time remote participation was feasible for most > people -- was that there was not a lot of concern about these > issues, not because people were backward, but because it was > very clear that meetings were about discussion and getting a > shared understanding of the issues and how to explain them, not > about "deciding" or even "agreeing". I suspect that a really > pure form of that approach may be somewhat mythological, but the > difference between even a watered-down version and the "decide > in meeting, ask on mailing list if there are any significant > objections" pattern we've seen frequently in recent years is > still significant. I think it's extremely difficult to get any deep understanding of a significant issue at a meeting session. The number of words that can be exchanged on any topic in a minute or two at the mike is miniscule, while emails have far more length and can be digested at leisure, and clarifications requested after digestion. Buttonholing attendees for informal conversation is far more important use of the meeting. Particularly for TLS 1.3 standardization a considerable amount of the action in late stages was in academic conferences that weren't officially part of the IETF because of the technicalities. > > However, I think my main point is similar to Brian's (if I > correctly understand him): it is time we have discussions about > principles and make decisions about them and then answer > questions (probably easily) about what services we need to offer > and how they should be arranged and/or delivered in terms of > those principles. Making a decision about something like an > mp3 feed (and a variety of other things) in isolation is > unlikely to lead us to good places. +1 > > > It seems to me that the principle of the fee waiver and when > > it's ethical to use it is still not clear, and we don't know > > whether it is financially viable in the medium to long term. > > Until that's settled, I'm a bit uneasy about dropping the mp3 > > streams, precisely because they do not need pre-registration. > > > (If meetecho had a "read only" or observer mode without > > pre-registration, this problem would go away instantly.) > > Which, of course, Meetecho, in its IETF form, had in the > original distinction between joining as an observer and as a > participant until "we" decided to shut it off in the run-up to > IETF 108 (or IETF 107 if not using Meetecho at all for that > meeting counts). The problem is not what mode(s) are available > but where we draw the dividing line about who gets a free ride. > Personally I have a lot of difficulty justifying free mp3 live > streaming but requiring that "read only" / observer Meetecho > users pay, but YMMD. > > And I see parts of those things as both important but larger > parts as just another symptom. We need to look at whether to > make a distinction between observers and participants and > whether the latter (at least) are pay to play... always, or only > when a meeting is all-remote. We need to figure out if there is > any real justification for requiring that observers be able to > observe in real time and, if not, how much delay in getting > video (and audio?) posted is tolerable. And so on. I think > that, if we have answers to those sorts of questions of > principle, most of the questions about live audio feeds and even > fee waivers will largely fall out. > > best, > john > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches Sincerely, Watson -- Astra mortemque praestare gradatim From nobody Sat Oct 3 20:27:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1FB3A0AD6; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M3Dlr6gl8VG0; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC31F3A0AD5; Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7182ABE3E; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 04:26:55 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FyoG3ye4kpvJ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 04:26:54 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B25ABBE2F; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 04:26:53 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1601782013; bh=g5VXL/ASLJB3fbZAgcyWviZq2mfEFBi3vhU8pDIxPA4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ghaflqjY17Vw7jT0qjP1wMG5AuEzJvzw1KSEOFk501Z9d4xhwEN4Th0tYQVGPzzCc RRCeupmp7PPkCEtg7Ys3uSIPzRN8e8oY9NK1Qwb22m6v3QM29DV5Brq+LOUDwyW23c Kg5nIUNOMf5vEHbdwVuJA27NYkix3rbQVUZLYI5M= To: Watson Ladd , John C Klensin Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <14FC90BA1260E306F5DB4D31@PSB> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 04:26:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNaBzgJpWByuyzLAFQEA4vGH0DOmQCf23" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 03:27:00 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cNaBzgJpWByuyzLAFQEA4vGH0DOmQCf23 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="otixwEqvbKzOVMnFqw7wZuOOGCm11izdf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Watson Ladd , John C Klensin Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> <14FC90BA1260E306F5DB4D31@PSB> In-Reply-To: --otixwEqvbKzOVMnFqw7wZuOOGCm11izdf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A58EDCD640674DBEB50BA29A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A58EDCD640674DBEB50BA29A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/10/2020 04:11, Watson Ladd wrote: > Particularly for TLS 1.3 standardization a considerable amount of the > action in late stages was in academic conferences that weren't > officially part of the IETF because of the technicalities. Not quite that: those workshops were encouraged as an addition to the IETF process. And were well worthwhile for TLS1.3 though probably would be OTT for other RFCs. 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sxMo9B8CnYOj for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 12:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C9703A09C0 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 12:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id g9so3833829pgh.8 for ; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 12:27:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:references:to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZE/OVeRRoRQJF4jDaMNPh8PAP8Ve7rg5vRKdHDu0fEY=; 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<160183679204.18578.16139274816065659330@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] English grammer in I-D Action messages X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 19:27:50 -0000 > There is also a HTML versions available at: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html Could somebody please fix that? There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.txt Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 11:39:52 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : RFC Style Guide Authors : John Levine Sandy Ginoza Filename : draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2020-10-04 Abstract: This document describes the fundamental and unique style conventions and editorial policies currently in use for the RFC Series. It captures the RFC Editor's basic requirements and offers guidance regarding the style and structure of an RFC. Additional guidance is captured on a website that reflects the experimental nature of that guidance and prepares it for future inclusion in the RFC Style Guide. This document obsoletes RFC 7322, "RFC Style Guide". The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-flanagan-7322bis/ There is also a HTML versions available at: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-flanagan-7322bis-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Sun Oct 4 13:01:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091203A09CF for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6IYsiaN9V2M for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47C653A09CD for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id o20so5117105pfp.11 for ; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tak+DPK4dqe6e8zJ0uUQ/bMuBJt2mmgBF5fPTkUbfZE=; b=OWV8UW4Q9ACfEJa2udjAAWbpSZ1QFUPusFLcVrrl0Q8/Hm9JxozDCOeE36MPO3Ogj8 sM067AZbHUdy/YtxVtm8GlfhYkvENL2iq/aRBpiFNb9LIiJW+7bXr3PVzZJlts0tXzC3 azfk8gr7L84bNWbLXdNWCZfjezbGFrd/gvqbQWdpOI8JZdget1+D6xX+Ew0OABN1jXt2 DSugVdwxmo+p9ncQYyt0WZSCfpHZYkRFe7xEeLHtsrt91NoB5wyyHRsndak08fLE4HKL lVjlgAXV1C42+jzywHI9kIZOJE5+GYpeaxm4zZHK9pXrOFReI5wUbtVD3iop3MlmVVZp 8zBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tak+DPK4dqe6e8zJ0uUQ/bMuBJt2mmgBF5fPTkUbfZE=; b=LvCfejhMfMArcixa45S7EvogcDN/GyOnHO6G6JJbLb9RtuQd3wc1cTuhx4kwn5oslD iFeiQ0Vul802enyJLhKDvYdooiqrD2AegYRrj1Xt+TJZSoYgRHf3x6arQTh/i8eKRT0y TMxlR1Te6t56kNVFRjH7yC/5EFjnQ8Yf66t05bRhb6L4Ac1W0+Qx+is/fA9MmsogaSCi E4jWS4frcJMmxmr3RqhG398VM1feOvV5QPnprT2M0zxO4E9VpSsPvr0MeUN8dU1Mf+R7 3NZBS9LjIuv/2LC835EDX+LVqVIIuk1sLY69u4fQTvIkNc+vTLBqCOzSSehC86wx0U6R I9Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531zoVrMuGoKXAtx7ye5anORunNVQ+AtGkAHTPA+gRaihA8ZH5kV uXlVYAoVEzDePx73iMdSo0VozSiZ3u2O3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzP+HDDIZmIA1ux91WnR3tNnloomGYywXc+4YZY43z29lU6pzpdNbY6mAyadxtikkkfuA9ciA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:96bb:0:b029:142:440c:6ebc with SMTP id g27-20020aa796bb0000b0290142440c6ebcmr4172527pfk.22.1601841671230; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 13:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.138.136]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j12sm8164369pjd.36.2020.10.04.13.01.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Oct 2020 13:01:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Tools Team Discussion From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <8714b6cf-a590-b58e-ac8d-472b1c2fc4c8@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:01:08 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Future idnits feature request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 20:01:14 -0000 idnits correctly produces warnings such as: ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 2460 (Obsoleted by RFC 8200) However, afaik, it does not produce warnings like: ** Updated normative reference: RFC 791 (Updated by Updated by RFC 1349, RFC 2474, RFC 6864) I believe this would be of benefit, since it ought to prompt the authors or reviewers to check whether those updates affect the draft. In fact I've often seen references to RFC791 that show ignorance of RFC2474, so this is not an artificial problem. (I came to this by noticing that the proposed updates to the RFC style guide have removed the statement that the RFC Editor catches references to obsoleted RFCs, as described at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7322#section-4.8.6). Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Sun Oct 4 13:07:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0B13A09D5 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R7YmUcAmVGll for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EED6D3A09C5 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 094K7ncp070372 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 15:07:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1601842070; bh=OuGe8avW/gGyhowkoZzghTk83PmLhUigOu7qimp6DtM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=qKceOJWHfl0RS6mH2Ae9+C8k91/fncQUb70r54NbXmKC4uLUJeKmLcXGRQyeQNgQo MjASO768LjYKLHczgLOcHo/kL46/y3GKYvQHjxsSZO/3d1HT4xK7WffB/IDINRVKfY Bp90JLCQkuKFRPSORUxLGdOtOwzEyz+AGZqzIE9M= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <160183679204.18578.16139274816065659330@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 15:07:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] English grammer in I-D Action messages X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 20:07:53 -0000 Already fixed as part of something else - will be in the next release. On 10/4/20 2:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> There is also a HTML versions available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html > Could somebody please fix that? > > There is also an HTML version available at: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action: draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.txt > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 11:39:52 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : RFC Style Guide > Authors : John Levine > Sandy Ginoza > Filename : draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.txt > Pages : 28 > Date : 2020-10-04 > > Abstract: > This document describes the fundamental and unique style conventions > and editorial policies currently in use for the RFC Series. It > captures the RFC Editor's basic requirements and offers guidance > regarding the style and structure of an RFC. Additional guidance is > captured on a website that reflects the experimental nature of that > guidance and prepares it for future inclusion in the RFC Style Guide. > This document obsoletes RFC 7322, "RFC Style Guide". > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-flanagan-7322bis/ > > There is also a HTML versions available at: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-flanagan-7322bis-06 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Sun Oct 4 16:13:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18273A0A6F for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 16:13:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGqgsz36h3VE; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 16:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65A903A0A6E; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 16:13:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <6F6B1A02-1045-4DD2-BCA6-44BDD7C61E71@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D867520A-7527-4613-BD8F-54A49FB586D4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:13:19 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Discussion To: Ronald Tse References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <3B086B7A-7DC7-424A-8267-5972904C561B@ribose.com> <0CBB8BB9-D251-4841-8D1B-B2C29A28AD2D@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 23:13:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D867520A-7527-4613-BD8F-54A49FB586D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Ronald > On 3/10/2020, at 4:22 PM, Ronald Tse wrote: >=20 > Hi Jay, >=20 > Please find my replies inline. Thanks! >=20 >>> "AsciiDoc using Metanorma / AsciiRFC=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m happy to add the 'AsciiRFC' part but is there a reason = you want the ' (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) ' removed? >=20 > Our original 'asciidoctor-rfc=E2=80=99 only generates XML RFC v2 (and = the pre-release version of v3), and has been superseded by Metanorma for = nearly 2 years. As you=E2=80=99ve probably read, there are people still using stone = tablets so two years is like a blink of the eye here. I=E2=80=99ll keep = in the '(formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc)' just to help those who are = versionally* challenged. * I made 'versionally' up but I think it works. >=20 >>> Can we add an option like: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know; my authoring tool seems to do that = for me" >>=20 >> Unfortunately this doesn=E2=80=99t really make sense as an additional = option for that question. It=E2=80=99s a matrix question where people = answer each of the options with one of >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Always >> =E2=80=A2 Very often >> =E2=80=A2 Sometimes >> =E2=80=A2 Rarely >> =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] >>=20 >> Also, I don=E2=80=99t understand how this benefits us as the = respondents may or may not have a built-in checker they don=E2=80=99t = know about - can you explain the thinking behind it? >=20 > I took the intent of this question as to gauge whether XML RFCs = submitted were valid upon submission. If most submissions were not = validated prior (e.g. authors like using the submission process for = validation), then the RPC presumably needs more resourcing to reject = invalid ones. On the other hand, if most submissions were already valid, = resourcing is less of a concern. >=20 > For example, a typical Metanorma user may not be aware of the exact = validation tools used mentioned in this question. One may put = =E2=80=9CNever=E2=80=9D as they might not have ever heard of these = validation tools. However, they do know that Metanorma helps them = validate the file (by the output and warnings), but not sure what = exactly that process entails. >=20 > Therefore the option of =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know, my authoring = tool seems to do that for me=E2=80=9D rescues them from the =E2=80=9CNever= =E2=80=9D bucket =E2=80=94 otherwise the answers may be skewed. First, just to be clear - I=E2=80=99ve bundled all checking/validation = tools together but you=E2=80=99re only talking about validating the XML, = not validating YANG, ABNF etc, and so you only mean to see if Metanorma = reduces the need for xml2rfc as a validator? I=E2=80=99m checking this, = because if that is the case then this extra option doesn=E2=80=99t make = sense to add for all those other validators. Second, I must admit that I assumed that only valid XML was accepted and = I need to check exactly what happens there. If not then yes that will = have an impact on resources. However, that=E2=80=99s not the intent of = the question, which is to understand what tools people use and adding = this doesn=E2=80=99t fit with that intent. =20 To get at what you have identified here, I could add a question similar = to this: "How do you ensure that your draft is correctly formatted/validated when = you submit it? (check all that apply)" - I use the checkers/validators in the question above - This is a feature of my authoring tool - I submit my draft and correct any errors if it is rejected [Remove if = invalid drafts are accepted] - I don=E2=80=99t ensure that my draft is correctly formatted [Remove = if only valid drafts are accepted} - Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Thoughts? BTW if you want to know if people only use Metanorma then I can filter = for that and I=E2=80=99ve also got a general action to safely release = survey data, so this could be the first of those to allow people to = understand the results in more depth. Jay >=20 > Kind regards, > Ron >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_D867520A-7527-4613-BD8F-54A49FB586D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Ronald

On 3/10/2020, at 4:22 PM, = Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> wrote:

Hi Jay,

Please find my replies inline. Thanks!

"AsciiDoc using Metanorma / AsciiRFC=E2=80=9D

I=E2=80=99m happy to add the 'AsciiRFC' part but is there a reason you = want the ' (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) ' removed?

Our original 'asciidoctor-rfc=E2=80=99 only generates = XML RFC v2 (and the pre-release version of v3), and has been superseded = by Metanorma for nearly 2 = years.

As you=E2=80=99ve probably read, there are people = still using stone tablets so two years is like a blink of the eye here. = I=E2=80=99ll keep in the '(formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc)' just to = help those who are versionally* challenged.

* I made 'versionally' up but I think it = works.


Can we add an option like:

=E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know; my authoring tool seems = to do that for me"

Unfortunately this doesn=E2=80=99t really make sense as = an additional option for that question.  It=E2=80=99s a matrix = question where people answer each of the options with one of

  =E2=80=A2 Always
    =E2=80=A2 Very often
    =E2=80=A2 Sometimes
    =E2=80=A2 Rarely
    =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

Also, I don=E2=80=99t understand how this benefits us as = the respondents may or may not have a built-in checker they don=E2=80=99t = know about - can you explain the thinking behind it?

I took the intent of this question as to gauge whether = XML RFCs submitted were valid upon submission. If most submissions were = not validated prior (e.g. authors like using the submission process for = validation), then the RPC presumably needs more resourcing to reject invalid ones. On the other hand, if most submissions were = already valid, resourcing is less of a = concern.

For example, a typical Metanorma user may not be aware = of the exact validation tools used mentioned in this question. One may = put =E2=80=9CNever=E2=80=9D as they might not have ever heard of these = validation tools. However, they do know that Metanorma helps them = validate the file (by the output and warnings), but not sure what exactly that = process entails.

Therefore the option of =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know, = my authoring tool seems to do that for me=E2=80=9D rescues them from the = =E2=80=9CNever=E2=80=9D bucket =E2=80=94 otherwise the answers may be = skewed.

First, just to be clear - I=E2=80=99ve bundled all = checking/validation tools together but you=E2=80=99re only talking about = validating the XML, not validating YANG, ABNF etc, and so you only mean = to see if Metanorma reduces the need for xml2rfc as a validator? =  I=E2=80=99m checking this, because if that is the case then this = extra option doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to add for all those other = validators.

Second, I must admit that I = assumed that only valid XML was accepted and I need to check exactly = what happens there.  If not then yes that will have an impact on = resources.  However, that=E2=80=99s not the intent of the question, = which is to understand what tools people use and adding this doesn=E2=80=99= t fit with that intent.  

To = get at what you have identified here, I could add a question similar to = this:

"How do you ensure that your = draft is correctly formatted/validated when you submit it? (check all = that apply)"
- I use the checkers/validators in the question = above
- This is a feature of my authoring tool
- I = submit my draft and correct any errors if it is rejected [Remove if = invalid drafts are accepted]
- I don=E2=80=99t ensure that my = draft is correctly formatted  [Remove if only valid drafts are = accepted}
- Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]

Thoughts?

BTW if you want to know if people only use = Metanorma then I can filter for that and I=E2=80=99ve also got a general = action to safely release survey data, so this could be the first of = those to allow people to understand the results in more = depth.

Jay


Kind regards,
Ron


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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23:34:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F86B3A0DCB for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQHfJIq8qJYG for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EB773A0DA6 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9946:9609:e923:84cf] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9946:9609:e923:84cf]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CECF6099E7; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:33:48 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1601879628; bh=M6tQVmg5Zx06Vj/V2oyxzV/rOy2MWI24T051aht7NSs=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=fqKfZVP0GKIFDhQsEaUBWb7ON1Apx8kL1ysF/q8FjOB72eDSuZlueK3S02dBqdIWa MATA/FT2n3o3yZKRdDFJ7zgbbq8VZATlnL2/CxITDWiMzL9M1kUMh2XgPJut3PpLVE kMDKyCFIi9fvk5FGvegZksDKfV+A2+R1QjqYcjDs= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1F606255-35C7-45A4-8411-F81F3790F130"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:33:46 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Glen References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> <756154ef-8fca-402f-c7e7-7410ec0924cd@amsl.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 5CECF6099E7.A4749 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 06:34:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1F606255-35C7-45A4-8411-F81F3790F130 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2020-10-3, at 1:47, Glen wrote: > I've changed the email routing on the Zulip instance, and both of you = should have received your messages just now. Future email *should* = work, and we'll keep an eye on it... the invitations for delivered over the weekend, but expired. When I try and sign up again now, I get this error: > Configuration error >=20 > It appears there are problems with the email configuration. >=20 > See /var/log/zulip/errors.log for more details on the error. >=20 > You may also want to test your email configuration, as described in = the Production installation docs. >=20 > After making your changes, remember to restart the Zulip server. Lars --Apple-Mail=_1F606255-35C7-45A4-8411-F81F3790F130 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl96vkoACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfRLg/+OBniNz+t39pcTxfFgSvGXRo+oXcz0LithWFzfmrMRj4Pne+azaPyRXbb 02x1Op4Ax7xaU3ca5rPrG3ZuWBMKS5KFQzM/d/JFJNgxGV5cBha9XfKQmN98Xf7b s44sgiB8lTKU30Cxs1VD49T1yYnTf91eGWP7D2RYxsbx1QoGk65053z9SkXQT5Vh XVN+Cj6z7eO5w1Nph0QB1qhG2jsDgepl5S6SAVMAbrwRXM541M6dSQ6w5nCuvxbL AdGO1s5eel4Xa7LGZy9ydsaKsGJgmrfSUfqYsEqHxd+dPuDYHZwph1h964lovfye Oa/OQNLWZBwjzWCBtllPwmYcvuxhgE+rm8YiVmroN6JcoBTnlKmRkjnDJjjIC+/S pYwn7AvOM/YX6L++nNRK6rZtS/eR0kJcge4j/Q+YBLycHLhM/MNcFIQeqmtHj9kb RAN59p/jsZkZykUBmuCi2iaVC2dQv+ztCtvye4ANZFqcX7YW4ebY1t/2yifbgeDK 1FjBFjGoAqphULK7XmlD6+iEOS526SKVInpn+NKs37UZlQUiivYF8Evayh0z1ZaP 2vM5efO4DYcADqPfaK9Jd1vBCPEfAOInmCpDoangrlumIAqZRPvpbqIW1DmH1mU+ Wrjxhp+Hwj9WKNUtYWc5Ngpjba2HsM5f44zK/0QgWxxwU/EMG9g= =fsFZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1F606255-35C7-45A4-8411-F81F3790F130-- From nobody Sun Oct 4 23:34:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6133A0DCB for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCAcMqHoKnPD for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 301AF3A0DA6 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9946:9609:e923:84cf] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9946:9609:e923:84cf]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE7F16099E8; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:34:13 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1601879653; bh=UbcK+hdGSnMLFRYdrgkopb1+XXXsiJlPg+gLtMF3gEU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=njnFGNmU7LVvIHm7mlPdzcuzGD3++AmCkEcr9CFcHUvDB7pw08IstOy19C2W3PTTA s2kRfGcPzd/Tm4vgtzWdczeS/coSvT0LvXyp8bdwhvNzVQGbFA0EkwfIWu8oVfKk/f oMZ5mP4cSQKd+a/e+fLjYGilp0uZOrJp/6pEc8z8= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <92A5C416-A2A9-4665-9E08-52900D93CF24@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7BE0926C-4446-476B-B47D-FF1EA289A8C2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:34:13 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Glen References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> <756154ef-8fca-402f-c7e7-7410ec0924cd@amsl.com> X-MailScanner-ID: BE7F16099E8.A4244 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 06:34:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7BE0926C-4446-476B-B47D-FF1EA289A8C2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2020-10-5, at 9:33, Lars Eggert wrote: > On 2020-10-3, at 1:47, Glen wrote: >> I've changed the email routing on the Zulip instance, and both of you = should have received your messages just now. Future email *should* = work, and we'll keep an eye on it... >=20 > the invitations for delivered over the weekend, but expired. s/for/were/ Lars >=20 > When I try and sign up again now, I get this error: >=20 >> Configuration error >>=20 >> It appears there are problems with the email configuration. >>=20 >> See /var/log/zulip/errors.log for more details on the error. >>=20 >> You may also want to test your email configuration, as described in = the Production installation docs. >>=20 >> After making your changes, remember to restart the Zulip server. >=20 > Lars --Apple-Mail=_7BE0926C-4446-476B-B47D-FF1EA289A8C2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl96vmUACgkQVLXDCb9w wVezWg/7B+UhXHW2kJ4vPO9dIxIdzYvLt45okUZWyb6cDS9SFzXZSAlF2ZtRYX45 SxVwzjJypnDap/T9gen3l5vlYTNrq2l9HuCzY1TlEhu3GlEkQS7ZCJmdkHSavt1E jZ9NQPw88SoBMzzILktCPH3jT7USQfzXTzdCtwKXJgY3yperNp0whVu/EGjc4ZBL CG2Ijd3e7K5vJXiabIgWiM2bxiArHnPmsFFkhDEe1DCabUrOAL6SIt5nGdO4Zowe OgNw/d8CTE1/gOBVbOeaaFSR+TslhlSpphcRm1ke3LFwvd9JpeJ7YPSZhCfgUaWh gwwR+R0ZC10+LvhkNiJqUjsWf4pga9o2yYAXNsOtPFa7McxnK51YeOlVKRBX84Ta KNNjfDEP6UQMkPv8xv3UMxBdMxpiC8DqH4E2u3ykejXfZp0a9OihnqSUwvQnnFco U+DGUsJU6U02SCEvbyRxZSsM06dvSt96vNmlZC2JIqhh19Cwz4w9oivAfWpTJAYO 4u5f3Pr0EBNPQgiJ78xQx/mxFM++aE7eYjobib1zkHYPlSWA5ZxjMl+dlu3r5wQL NO/mkbY5dJCVgvodiNJgKI4s+NssvAYDyZfGZlcZbiHzKgN/Une6OSTX/ZEqTQ9Y hmSYdERHFhJiK8lVKPynvyVY0n3eUwBDyeL4U+BoUMzpiZ0vZSo= =EFSh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7BE0926C-4446-476B-B47D-FF1EA289A8C2-- From nobody Sun Oct 4 23:34:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCB73A0DCB; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74QrpNsaf6XP; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5798D3A0DA6; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 0956YlWi020089; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:34:47 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DF3A200EA4; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:34:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1C7200E79; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:34:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.11.240.138] ([10.11.240.138]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 0956Ykma006168; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:34:47 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <5a8ed7f4-b0a0-a5ab-5c81-a7af404e9d10@nostrum.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:34:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 06:34:52 -0000 Le 01/10/2020 à 21:42, Brian E Carpenter a écrit : >> * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a >> session in real-time without paying a registration fee. >> >> There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting >> registration structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is >> available and being improved. > > I don't think that's a tools-discuss decision alone. It's been a > significant point of principle discussed (e.g.) in SHMOO, hence the > extra CC. > > It seems to me that the principle of the fee waiver and when it's > ethical to use it is still not clear, and we don't know whether it > is financially viable in the medium to long term. Until that's > settled, I'm a bit uneasy about dropping the mp3 streams, precisely > because they do not need pre-registration. > > (If meetecho had a "read only" or observer mode without > pre-registration, this problem would go away instantly.) It would be advantageous to continue the streaming of audio, for a registration-less observer read-only kind of participation. Maybe a thing to improve is the format of the data. A better performing format than mp3, why not an IETF recent technology (ogg?), with a better support from free software tools that are widely available, could be good. Alex > > Regards Brian > > Regards Brian Carpenter > > On 02-Oct-20 03:31, Robert Sparks wrote: >> We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for >> IETF meetings, starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the >> community before we do. >> >> At many past meetings we have produced live mp3 streams for each >> session. These steams have been associated with physical meeting >> rooms, and appeared before and during the session as a link on the >> agenda page to a URL like >> 'http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf.m3u'. >> >> >> >> For the last several meetings, these have only been available as a live >> stream. Recordings of that stream have not been made available >> after the meeting. The full video recording provided by Meetecho >> has served as the way to listen to (or watch) any given session >> after the fact. >> >> Further, for the last several meetings, the live streams have seen >> very light use, on the order of 10 uses for IETF 108. >> >> Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement >> to allow meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing >> the live streams to run outside their scheduled times will require >> changing how they are represented, to no longer be associated with >> "rooms" or "tracks". The code refactor at both the datatracker and >> at meetecho to support would not be a huge effort, but it also >> would not be tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity, >> recognizing that the regular meetecho connection and recordings >> satisfy the need, is the better use of our resources. That holds >> true even for future in-person meetings. >> >> There are several points that have been considered while arriving >> at this proposal: >> >> * Chairs use the recordings to fill in minutes. >> >> For the last several meetings, the chairs have been using the >> Meetecho recordings for this purpose. Recordings of the live mp3 >> streams haven't been available. >> >> * Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than >> one meeting at a time. >> >> Meetecho allows joining multiple sessions. >> >> * Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough >> computer to run meetecho. >> >> The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at the last several >> meetings. This population isn't using the mp3 streams to address >> the posited limitations. If this is a concern that some people >> think they will experience then we can look at asking Meetecho to >> allow sending only audio (muting all video). >> >> * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a >> session in real-time without paying a registration fee. >> >> There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting >> registration structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is >> available and being improved. >> >> Please send comments by 16 Oct 2020 either to >> tools-discuss@ietf.org or directly to rjsparks@nostrum.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce >> mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Mon Oct 5 03:05:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDFA3A0EC0 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 03:05:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.095 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kMEoLvg11Cw2 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 03:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AACF33A0EB9 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 03:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id k18so8136716wmj.5 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 03:05:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EZ9KlxcxwyBaVPkkJzYfJrwCY0uTaZ0GkZKS+Vv5UOE=; b=d+0WjOuBT2VZ6U8u5witi1qzoyEJQR6V2/FpsAWIGRsQByuXj/alkkVBvPLDgaxSfR RjSWJsWoU8RIHLKCfU/AHRKnCuPi1BUnW3qUiW7aqEYWFFerCpQBoqaqqrt+OzjWxzG6 ka0JAK8wTPRhpdMaWbhY9XO4k++Pj8ZK3zfyg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EZ9KlxcxwyBaVPkkJzYfJrwCY0uTaZ0GkZKS+Vv5UOE=; b=A8LHVV/+rAcfYpJX2GWhR0sFocYH9JWVWAhEb/G0GWj6hxr+Lpx1W5v7M2DraGL0As f8HNw/la9+WlbRNOqmQfmQsjza8NLAqHKVZV2O8j49hB8DZnmg1PokyiztVXIAUpjMxQ +8CEzkqUDlJUonq3WOUeXJkttPf+B6FYLPcIOMLSa1UWu8QwyGLXXU/cAYF14j8yz4GR K58+MZBm9XQ3l1QtW/2aYqR/OpBoQLsx2Nb2/Vs5st0AtLquQcFX/yjICIe/Wduh6hnx m0ku5AbFooTa/MK/3rm6yhxhfJyVFt8IJjUudj22mGN80jWAohBxbZ3G0GwJiofxEBnz 2g0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532QEevi1VqzgBd5QlEuV3ImdKV0LisfriM3eldxs/3D35h2R6Lg yo/Z9VDxlbHVLu159+cb1GxPLZF7yMx3o9xpUqOoxjGby9w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxADReG4Wz3FRvE36VFdQl/En8kRH7wLH7FZRCmP8SeJSXTNJ0pmoicq2d9cvafSa2LfDB60R4QL6c7PEqHrG8= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:5f46:: with SMTP id t67mr7880524wmb.173.1601892315705; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 03:05:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> In-Reply-To: <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> From: Dave Cridland Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:05:04 +0100 Message-ID: To: Matthew Hodgson Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007249ed05b0e99e9e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 10:05:20 -0000 --0000000000007249ed05b0e99e9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew Hodgson wrote: > * By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of it. IETF > is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as > irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is > off the cards anyway. I certainly agree that the best course of action is to have a IM solution that is as compatible with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I think, served the IETF community well over the past decade or so, and existing deployed solutions - like Meetecho and the IETF Jabber server itself - have worked with reasonable effectiveness. The XMPP community, vendors and independent developers, have offered help with improving this too (and many from the XMPP community have gone on to do wider work within the IETF world). I, too, am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web technologies to be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology with specifications published through a recognised standards group and multiple interoperable implementations. One might as well use the criteria of "It's programmed in ANSI C". But I'm also, I confess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the likes of Zulip (which I've never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is that public XMPP services are not easily found, and yet simultaneously "XMPP is off the cards", and no public accounts will be offered. What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and hosting a web client? Dave. --0000000000007249ed05b0e99e9e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew = Hodgson <matthew@matrix.org>= ; wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0* By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of= it. IETF
is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as
irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is
off the cards anyway.

I certainly agree tha= t the best course of action is to have a IM solution that is as compatible = with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I think, served the IETF community well ov= er the past decade or so, and existing deployed solutions - like Meetecho a= nd the IETF Jabber server itself - have worked with reasonable effectivenes= s. The XMPP community, vendors and independent developers, have offered hel= p with improving this too (and many from the XMPP community have=C2=A0gone = on to do wider work within the IETF world).

I, too= , am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web technologies to= be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology with specifications= published through a recognised standards=C2=A0group and multiple interoper= able implementations. One might as well use the criteria of "It's = programmed in ANSI C".

But I'm also, I co= nfess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the likes of Zulip (which I&= #39;ve never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is that public XMPP services= are not easily found, and yet simultaneously "XMPP is off the cards&q= uot;, and no public accounts will be offered.

What= 's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and hosting= a web client?

Dave.
--0000000000007249ed05b0e99e9e-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 03:56:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629083A017E for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 03:56:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d6QTByKhATbU for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 03:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AEF53A0140 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 03:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:49610 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kPOAg-0001N0-58; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 03:56:46 -0700 To: Brian E Carpenter , Tools Team Discussion References: <160183679204.18578.16139274816065659330@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:56:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cUB1XW5HXtv5VVCd5mE0VdLvSEfINaOHn" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] English grammer in I-D Action messages X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 10:56:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cUB1XW5HXtv5VVCd5mE0VdLvSEfINaOHn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MheNDusMUMc2ItOoToU8TT96cR892b8U6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Brian E Carpenter , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] English grammer in I-D Action messages References: <160183679204.18578.16139274816065659330@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: --MheNDusMUMc2ItOoToU8TT96cR892b8U6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Done! Henrik On 2020-10-04 21:27, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> There is also a HTML versions available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html >=20 > Could somebody please fix that? >=20 > There is also an HTML version available at: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action: draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.txt > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 11:39:52 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. >=20 >=20 > Title : RFC Style Guide > Authors : John Levine > Sandy Ginoza > Filename : draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.txt > Pages : 28 > Date : 2020-10-04 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes the fundamental and unique style conventions= > and editorial policies currently in use for the RFC Series. It > captures the RFC Editor's basic requirements and offers guidance > regarding the style and structure of an RFC. Additional guidance is= > captured on a website that reflects the experimental nature of that > guidance and prepares it for future inclusion in the RFC Style Guide= =2E > This document obsoletes RFC 7322, "RFC Style Guide". >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-flanagan-7322bis/ >=20 > There is also a HTML versions available at: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-flanagan-7322bis-06.html >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-flanagan-7322bis-06 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --MheNDusMUMc2ItOoToU8TT96cR892b8U6-- --cUB1XW5HXtv5VVCd5mE0VdLvSEfINaOHn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl96++YACgkQTptXS4+7 FxpmHA//Wdc74Sja//NyFdFpqzqxKpMcht+N+VSl/MGEv+8JFQGttXtZxwltZlqU NGKPSX+qt6GmibSS9UtykJC5hkRunwzMISQJcbK6osasZ/oDKXj2uQQVbs/bTrW5 PIziouS9olT8FWX7Qwei9+dUOstviFJRl6zWRQaw9dHlpq2QkKQ4Ndcoqmm3BlLT 5ZnCejbj9SAx5+fC7K1OIeB9+92U5L2bpreNA+YGayVKsUDJz7tYs5Sgsb7zblJb yC/qjE1o1XPpz6Zg3Pb3Khk0Ytqjdpb/hTcPbYJfokq6XYHqpqV1h/1qP/wAh7Bh yINV2TJvNS6ZMrQBSBk3Fgn9Etd3TpJ2dQenNH0yHLhwHuk6I/Y0XnhJPpHscimw Bnqhp2qCXkN62cvY1O0pniyfc6QyRv/hPN+kSoR/3cKwdEN+0Gz34MeaG/UlSpEy boXM/ZrKuPeAu731XShJj/EfgQLBz5k/XlFuv0U/Do/O8Y7L3wF1fxI6vreyRvAg UE7o3uGsgg9PWE1LTA/nefSv3u47hSVmRc7GvrtehY4i3XfmPBpRjQ0AMpu+I8D3 nifD7FbesGeR7B+0aL1hvW2noq3PJNl187WM4GqbqG/okohUZs/d8v9ePSuGgpiP +ba73xhiiFo10P0LijsDWEUBTr+S+xrNq/1uTEBMOnZ8lt+h09g= =JArX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cUB1XW5HXtv5VVCd5mE0VdLvSEfINaOHn-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 04:24:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653AE3A0836 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 04:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UXLKSEO-sUP for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 04:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E0ED3A084B for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 04:24:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1601897039; bh=p+bfDRgk26PIUuFIH/UUdQTLybfbFwTm0ShFdHHIrlg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MwxHQ8VKN1FVJxI1MeegqyFXycFO6CNFIpRnK0ppktnfB9kuoX4aFjLSVut+F+ped NhhFntgbTNKr8fHGT3UPQzJo4qXxSA9Zp5nGdADmSh9bXwJfISqGPeo/+PJYCtgHkB wXoGKEeqNmduKocYkG77c6a2jn8Vd9lHaCAmybsk= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N5mGH-1kR2Jg2nU3-017GBw for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 13:23:59 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:23:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NJOaSjAl49irP+FiT/EReLtJvXqpvWh1kHj2oK9GgIEtagBD0ES Z1QmJxmCXv/YtB8Ixg4whyMu/V3UVR1UoHe5yJLKf+x0M/MUjh3RG5e1JfrFv/qED6IZpzR e1mMrDTsfxlyXbhTa9qjw8k+Y4CgNkxnYiC+669LnoT/NcTMxWeWSn4PLNBylvaxRzqgobZ ItA3mSJ2Vu+Yl+1TLv/JA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:fl2A/TTeqJM=:dzihH1BGG2tcbaaHrFVULX sOs95Au8MEe/bVkTYq4l3/ZNlMFNvfKLxVT3J8DX3Egm2xL3dFozIf79gbA40lu79nw+ijnoy /l+XHbQqPDSWU5QQvWM8j1uz2n6oHAA3Q2p8tUmWVcKxlV7ukUQ68Nh5YSDzoTXr/NWpsqPgR Ni11fz2BAh7cvBtAShdDMonslXI8dHBm1Lp0QUgo9wnGyUWvVoQ3MrZ+hpjUM8rgdySO12D1d QxqKfQgdBhmbn5rdveG57HQYRYXgzdeyB5eQbujCTiEA/0RrpIxfLXg24CiDeZ81v87G9C1LJ kZQedeexx/i1kdRIFn2VgkgZ8Za3l53NDX0Dxh8uOTI4dNiQN2mTkSRqRisPKYbrlVYoY0ny4 y4yoJUbKSxAiCUjQffu495356ewTn464SNZjJnGr5TLXiWotGF0NxST3DtoFwUzN4KXu5z6Hd 7JKPPEuX0wHOyLagrwNd1yuE/xK8wow6JKP18j7ZgUE0yyDPBtfAfxuwyMIP3ydmROS4ijJsg IXOHE4GavqP9whJUFzgzlV5VnXYIJdltgOSZCBaHbJjr64yaSpm/X+AR808zWF6JYA6IUCBil mYcWkr5DOmpuZ8JBnB5K40Y74c5DUSfM6iMbgcrAnc3sDlSZy73ViUc+m8TTsjZ3TKH3NLDwU Tux1vChB6HM7Vl3MLnAnksaQLBcEivrj6RC89E9qCVj4aB16UQFkRQ9WAlIw3QDpyzNJTHcfr lJMZIh+XB8umpA5LvWZNPtBgxzJ4XLxO26bMnonokp6SXa6V6ztOIDP2V1GY+vHwfOdr5P7Mq pdk29PQQcnQT6GoEFQwqhsSvyPjSU3J5cYI90VfodpDnqagimXDHTT/ax7YtaUtf/IBCSJwT0 de0gHHFY5rnvzlFVq0xSBOnCulkMavVBHmja4Pd9C63/10QL2GBRCR3A4HEXZKyx8pKH9SSxF 1Spdk4lWH8DAKehFP/zdgipkCI8cixu1HmrywCQTgUJ4PG07ykc9Xv8pTOyX47W3CRxCz+ogi VE1FYn2/LkqZCtmjJmorKjXivqA9wbZitOcRW2599Q0vz186GFSHIxzvQqWLUnriJhmzYu0EX 208JjrqOeYHy+q3k2ar1AsKpNo1k2ORZ7NkAMYNJ+cL39a4rTKDOhLJDv1WZZzI9Ae72B0iV4 2HZZKRWd4WSPn4QhXRik76UwGsdeywIAl2PFLGsLH7MYHIx2xDhYXtNkNmlGJt5nl+GflLGDM zsBsWr9TOfvPplzQMMkJFJcl536IUfdfiiR8W0A== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 11:24:07 -0000 Am 01.10.2020 um 19:09 schrieb Jay Daley: > The updated survey is below. Please note that > > - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links > - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats pag= e > - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. > > Further feedback is most welcome. > > Jay > ... Sorry for late feedback :-) This is good, thanks! The one missing thing I currently can think of is an option to provide information about other tools in use to either *generate* source, or to validate it. For instance: - automatic *extraction* of sourcecode (such as ABNF) with the goal of validation (and maybe re-inserting into an appendix) - automatic *insertion* of source code - automatic generation of document parts (such as reference tables) - preprocessors that extend the XML vocabulary and generate "plain" xml2rf= c - use of SVG tools (or reasons why they are not used) - tools that read a textual description and generate artwork from it (like sequence diagrams) - tools that check references (such as to RFCs and IDs, and to catch dangling "deep" links, such as when a section number in the referenced document changed) Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Oct 5 06:44:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5133A0AE2 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 06:44:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJEikdeH5jep for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 06:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp67.ord1d.emailsrvr.com (smtp67.ord1d.emailsrvr.com [184.106.54.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E49A3A0AC5 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 06:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp1.relay.ord1d.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 575D24016C; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 07:44:38 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <07883E6E-F66B-40BB-8C49-ACC06340677D@iii.ca> References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-Classification-ID: d1804c52-db3f-49b7-8747-9965cda15c04-1-1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 13:44:42 -0000 On the questions about what people use, I think it would be good to be = clear that we want to know what they use for drafts they are doing now. = For example. they may have used nroff lots a long time ago but don=E2=80=99= t use it now.=20 I think the word =E2=80=9Cinvest=E2=80=9D in the "Should the IETF invest = in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts?=E2=80=9D is very = loaded. Many people will interpret that is create something specific for = IETF. I think =E2=80=9Cmove to=E2=80=9D might be a better word than = invest./ > On Oct 5, 2020, at 5:23 AM, Julian Reschke = wrote: >=20 > Am 01.10.2020 um 19:09 schrieb Jay Daley: >> The updated survey is below. Please note that >>=20 >> - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links >> - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats = page >> - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. >>=20 >> Further feedback is most welcome. >>=20 >> Jay >> ... >=20 > Sorry for late feedback :-) >=20 > This is good, thanks! >=20 > The one missing thing I currently can think of is an option to provide > information about other tools in use to either *generate* source, or = to > validate it. >=20 > For instance: >=20 > - automatic *extraction* of sourcecode (such as ABNF) with the goal of > validation (and maybe re-inserting into an appendix) > - automatic *insertion* of source code > - automatic generation of document parts (such as reference tables) > - preprocessors that extend the XML vocabulary and generate "plain" = xml2rfc > - use of SVG tools (or reasons why they are not used) > - tools that read a textual description and generate artwork from it > (like sequence diagrams) > - tools that check references (such as to RFCs and IDs, and to catch > dangling "deep" links, such as when a section number in the referenced > document changed) >=20 > Best regards, Julian >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Mon Oct 5 06:49:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7AA3A0AE3 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8KBg4U1kVE2R for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 06:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA5453A0AC5 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 06:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8B8389B1; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id O2ImZaedNaLJ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AD7389AF; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B70242; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:49:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Dave Cridland , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 13:49:15 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave Cridland wrote: > But I'm also, I confess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the > likes of Zulip (which I've never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is > that public XMPP services are not easily found, and yet simultaneously > "XMPP is off the cards", and no public accounts will be offered. > What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and > hosting a web client? +1. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl97JFcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXicQf/d5Q64AKeooMb0xb6PBN12i5VF8kS15dlyMZwXYlTyyALqev8oWsdmOjF GU2HXOXrTc5qCBdRM+6Qpb7lfmSc+BdnnnqXsmBU6y9j+mlpCBraaPQlX9SuGTbY ZzFvio2AlpLyJE59ANaMl+3TOIzOsjVKqGRusstT0df31af8j04y6LoHqWvx8FD5 +SNkLCN2rVKb1JazU3D6iGwFAT88C16fcDy1shpVApGWsKqfGBL0Gy9bhtwC0ByP /LKWPrwzMK8JzNQPr1WPvYNhOIvWmG7POJMqy7FC7ci/NMOKB75mVHKC74iNWGO6 8W4nLUTDp8Bgg/wljI/6SSptVPqEwQ== =eETG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 08:50:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D993A0B6B for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.122 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fA7uqpYZBp7U for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC0B53A0B23 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86FB23C30E0; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 66CA33C30DE; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:49:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Lars Eggert Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <4FEA02CB-A194-475C-A7C8-9A4C700B0065@eggert.org> <47E02E53-E046-4B4C-82E3-EF0203964151@tzi.org> <756154ef-8fca-402f-c7e7-7410ec0924cd@amsl.com> <92A5C416-A2A9-4665-9E08-52900D93CF24@eggert.org> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:50:02 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <92A5C416-A2A9-4665-9E08-52900D93CF24@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 15:50:10 -0000 On 10/4/2020 23:34, Lars Eggert wrote: > On 2020-10-5, at 9:33, Lars Eggert wrote: >> On 2020-10-3, at 1:47, Glen wrote: >>> I've changed the email routing on the Zulip instance, and both of you should have received your messages just now. Future email *should* work, and we'll keep an eye on it... >> the invitations for delivered over the weekend, but expired. > s/for/were/ > Lars >> When I try and sign up again now, I get this error: >>> Configuration error >>> It appears there are problems with the email configuration. Yes - Late last week, at the request of others, I set up email ingest (a setup where people can send email to the Zulip instance). I followed the directions we were pointed to; however, that seems to have broken outbound mail for Zulip. The reason for this breakage is that Zulip, which requires a dedicated server instance to run, automatically configures all of the services on the server, including Postfix, and rewrites the config whenever we make a settings change. This time, one of the configuration directives their system generated was blocking all outbound mail. I've removed that directive from their Postfix instance manually to allow it to send email again; however, if we make further Zulip changes, their system might rewrite what I've done (it's already done that once) and revert these changes. I've made a note of that in the server notes to try to stay ahead of it. I can now send outbound email again by hand from the server, and Lars you should have gotten the test I sent from their system... would you give registration one more try for me? Glen From nobody Mon Oct 5 08:57:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5FC3A0D5F; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:57:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVvZHzZwyXZ3; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0C4E3A0D69; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.184] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DB771DA75; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:57:28 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1601913448; bh=3pFDDG2JPvIe+txqmMpXe5m+oc7P0LKHgx7/6a8HeTc=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=aDRs7E5OuuzguYgdvLgNFf1bnIOS082Khp3vRAqjAZx64S/PsOEmsUxz9C4lmllEe UJ75pRzmfOb/8rhY8PEoCfpK8GMGlm8am2urFC1SloOcM7bo4rISw/gaSFStM6SXBL +DtcOhRy37Fr93cOSTY93gF1Bv09algd+rj53VLwZ9BMPxUhoK9cuy2NslElbqJTuw gQjurZT3BCieZeWk0R/R7i9kBdD0UaoamrN+PLfBuDCUp3di4qowXUUeioZ6UhGbYE 89btxAOnuc6e9858LxtsZj4i3joM1XupGx1r93/k1xmCWcM7/tqiVf+RhIRhwbocvN Y0BEV48UMzMDA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:57:27 -0400 Message-Id: References: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18A393) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 15:57:37 -0000 > On Oct 5, 2020, at 2:35 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > It would be advantageous to continue the streaming of audio, for a > registration-less observer read-only kind of participation. >=20 > Maybe a thing to improve is the format of the data. A better performing > format than mp3, why not an IETF recent technology (ogg?), with a better > support from free software tools that are widely available, could be good.= >=20 > Alex Do you maybe mean Opus (RFC 6716)? I like it when the IETF uses open technologies like this and it seems most o= perating systems support it now. Opus also supports multi-channel audio which would be great for multiple mic= rophones. I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle. We ne= ed a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore widespread ac= cess to the streams. 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Mon, 5 Oct 2020 16:19:16 +0000 From: "Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" To: Tom Pusateri , Alexandre Petrescu CC: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings Thread-Index: AQHWmzBH7gxFvbiktUSNG1ow3xwumKmJLfcw Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 16:19:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:e0a:56e:a940:7ddb:3500:93ff:146a] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 21cbb32e-9ab6-486a-ca4a-08d8694a67f2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1PR07MB6288: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB5453.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 21cbb32e-9ab6-486a-ca4a-08d8694a67f2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Oct 2020 16:19:16.4396 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fw0OVuqXQ3u9glIzeVsYAZXBNqOX34/P8czr1iPvETaSBamoQQV39nS5ubEOaphjuVmkcgrH0fv45Ib0Va3oLQDKQH+omGMlEOAYV5oySxE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB6288 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 16:19:22 -0000 We shouldn't focus too hard on the implementation of the audio feeds, it's = a technical problem that can be solved. The hard part is how this is exposed to users, and what tools are available= along with the necessary configuration (hopefully small or nonexistent). Ideally clicking on a link in the meeting webpages should enable listening = to the audio feed with no prerequisite at all, regardless of your device's = platform. If this is not possible there should be an easy walkthrough of wh= at needs to be done depending on the platform. Adding Opus to the conversation could be nice, but may contradict the "idea= l" scenario above (e.g. do ALL browsers support Opus ?). Best regards, Julien. -----Original Message----- From: Manycouches On Behalf Of Tom Pusateri Sent: Monday, October 5, 2020 5:57 PM To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; manycouches@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3= audio streams at IETF meetings > On Oct 5, 2020, at 2:35 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > It would be advantageous to continue the streaming of audio, for a=20 > registration-less observer read-only kind of participation. >=20 > Maybe a thing to improve is the format of the data. A better=20 > performing format than mp3, why not an IETF recent technology (ogg?),=20 > with a better support from free software tools that are widely available,= could be good. >=20 > Alex Do you maybe mean Opus (RFC 6716)? I like it when the IETF uses open technologies like this and it seems most = operating systems support it now. Opus also supports multi-channel audio which would be great for multiple mi= crophones. I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle. We n= eed a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore widespread = access to the streams. Thanks, Tom _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Oct 5 09:28:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37943A0DCF; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GUx3wrXutn6Y; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 719C83A0E2E; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C4mH875g7zylV; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 18:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 18:28:04 +0200 Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623608084.446721-e5fd0ef10f13e5ed76c32ceb88fdbbd7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> References: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> To: Tom Pusateri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 16:28:11 -0000 On 2020-10-05, at 17:57, Tom Pusateri = wrote: >=20 > I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle. = We need a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore = widespread access to the streams. Apologies for a stupid question: Why do we need to have a limited = number of sessions? Can=E2=80=99t we make each WG its own session? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 5 09:39:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91563A0E3E; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:39:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oXPHPvyIyxNs; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DE723A0E3B; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.184] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6771D1DA90; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:39:36 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1601915976; bh=Klu5C2/pbKv1gxoIv+6/tdA/oJsikJqr5fNs1NPBzMY=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=Ss1XelZH8rVPDIPJZROKzJL6SF3QrIbX/hFBrJUBK43yVQvfdFWfvX2uURS2jjD2z vIPrPr8rg34WVygQ/G1JpD57kp7DmYIqPBiN+Oic4sgB35UzD0VqenfpNtIYV+J7X1 6fS01xEmTU1n09P/AYWxjOTQZe/SeZhPZmsYAC2nB/WOXxjwVW08/5zbSflwgaPFLn Dzv5orVS4QZl2XJIc42UB0SC7OP5XNRyniOWfJ5dSts7X8iUQ0nsDMzNo+sjzIaGUk 80aHnOViJ32u5FDpsRAI5NMJhfDuWLj+BzI1ho+s91cghyFvnb7pEjAJNMrG3zFj7k SjVf1814PNhzg== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:39:35 -0400 Message-Id: References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> Cc: Tom Pusateri , Alexandre Petrescu , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18A393) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 16:39:44 -0000 > On Oct 5, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-10-05, at 17:57, Tom Pusateri wrote: >>=20 >> I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle. We= need a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore widespread= access to the streams. >=20 > Apologies for a stupid question: Why do we need to have a limited number o= f sessions? Can=E2=80=99t we make each WG its own session? >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten In the past (with physical meetings), the hardware to stream was set up in a= meeting room and tied to that location throughout the week. There were typi= cally 8 streams that didn=E2=80=99t change except for when rooms were reconf= igured throughout the week to make bigger/smaller spaces. Once the stream number was tied to a room location, I was able to determine w= hich sessions would be held in the room and know which stream to join for ea= ch session. So the limited number of streams is based on physical audio hardware. Tom= From nobody Mon Oct 5 09:45:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1663A0E41; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:45:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 87hjMmSyDV1x; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68A4E3A0844; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C4mg35l1vzyrq; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 18:45:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 18:45:19 +0200 Cc: Tom Pusateri , Alexandre Petrescu , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623609119.2724169-4c80d577e472d898e483a5d9ac5793ff Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B017A21-EAB8-49D9-8F4C-67564EF4EC1C@tzi.org> References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> To: Tom Pusateri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 16:45:23 -0000 On 2020-10-05, at 18:39, Tom Pusateri wrote: >=20 > So the limited number of streams is based on physical audio hardware. I understand the history; I just don=E2=80=99t understand how that still = limits us. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 5 12:44:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010C63A0F4F for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2fzMkzSBg44; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA9683A0F4D; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 08:44:52 +1300 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E314C42-307A-41D9-94B0-FD1A14827F96@ietf.org> References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 19:44:57 -0000 > On 6/10/2020, at 12:23 AM, Julian Reschke = wrote: >=20 > Am 01.10.2020 um 19:09 schrieb Jay Daley: >> The updated survey is below. Please note that >>=20 >> - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links >> - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats = page >> - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. >>=20 >> Further feedback is most welcome. >>=20 >> Jay >> ... >=20 > Sorry for late feedback :-) >=20 > This is good, thanks! >=20 > The one missing thing I currently can think of is an option to provide > information about other tools in use to either *generate* source, or = to > validate it. >=20 > For instance: >=20 > - automatic *extraction* of sourcecode (such as ABNF) with the goal of > validation (and maybe re-inserting into an appendix) > - automatic *insertion* of source code > - automatic generation of document parts (such as reference tables) > - preprocessors that extend the XML vocabulary and generate "plain" = xml2rfc > - use of SVG tools (or reasons why they are not used) > - tools that read a textual description and generate artwork from it > (like sequence diagrams) > - tools that check references (such as to RFCs and IDs, and to catch > dangling "deep" links, such as when a section number in the referenced > document changed) The survey currently asks: [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale] How often do you use the following checking tools? (Ignore any you = don=E2=80=99t know about) Items =E2=80=A2 Bill=E2=80=99s ABNF parser to check ABNF =E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission=20 =E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors =E2=80=A2 pyang to check YANG modules =E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker =E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts =E2=80=A2 Using the relaxNG schema for the RFC XML =E2=80=A2 SMICng to check MIBs =E2=80=A2 smilint to check MIBs =E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance=20 =E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML =E2=80=A2 YANG validator to check YANG modules =E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY] Scale =E2=80=A2 Always =E2=80=A2 Very often =E2=80=A2 Sometimes =E2=80=A2 Rarely =E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0] Which I think covers some of what you have suggested but by asking about = the specific tools rather than the generic categories. As this is such = a catch-all I will add a question: [QUESTION - Comment Box] Please list any other tools that you use and the purpose of = those tools Jay >=20 > Best regards, Julian >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Mon Oct 5 12:54:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F313A0EF5 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m880HSigwg67; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3D373A0EF3; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:54:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <780353F1-B3EA-40E7-B643-7382A612FD27@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_22D8E532-BF9B-49C0-B97A-7D328D96AD8A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 08:54:21 +1300 In-Reply-To: <07883E6E-F66B-40BB-8C49-ACC06340677D@iii.ca> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Cullen Jennings References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org> <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org> <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> <19017.1601561002@localhost> <4B2B4A68-AC82-4455-A9D1-30F3789038F9@ietf.org> <68CF84A2-7B5F-42A4-B4B7-B68C875591FA@tzi.org> <6F989ED3-4CD5-4E46-A410-965DA76E3F58@ietf.org> <07883E6E-F66B-40BB-8C49-ACC06340677D@iii.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Updated survey (was: Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 19:54:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_22D8E532-BF9B-49C0-B97A-7D328D96AD8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 6/10/2020, at 2:44 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >=20 >=20 > On the questions about what people use, I think it would be good to be = clear that we want to know what they use for drafts they are doing now. = For example. they may have used nroff lots a long time ago but don=E2=80=99= t use it now.=20 I=E2=80=99ve switched all the questions to the present tense "How often = do you use =E2=80=A6". I could add "currently" "How often do you = currently use =E2=80=A6" ? >=20 > I think the word =E2=80=9Cinvest=E2=80=9D in the "Should the IETF = invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts?=E2=80=9D is very = loaded. Many people will interpret that is create something specific for = IETF. I think =E2=80=9Cmove to=E2=80=9D might be a better word than = invest./ That=E2=80=99s a good point. We don=E2=80=99t want any views on IETF = finances to sway the answer to this question. Jay >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 5, 2020, at 5:23 AM, Julian Reschke = wrote: >>=20 >> Am 01.10.2020 um 19:09 schrieb Jay Daley: >>> The updated survey is below. Please note that >>>=20 >>> - this doesn=E2=80=99t show the links >>> - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker stats = page >>> - the flow logic may change when the survey is tested. >>>=20 >>> Further feedback is most welcome. >>>=20 >>> Jay >>> ... >>=20 >> Sorry for late feedback :-) >>=20 >> This is good, thanks! >>=20 >> The one missing thing I currently can think of is an option to = provide >> information about other tools in use to either *generate* source, or = to >> validate it. >>=20 >> For instance: >>=20 >> - automatic *extraction* of sourcecode (such as ABNF) with the goal = of >> validation (and maybe re-inserting into an appendix) >> - automatic *insertion* of source code >> - automatic generation of document parts (such as reference tables) >> - preprocessors that extend the XML vocabulary and generate "plain" = xml2rfc >> - use of SVG tools (or reasons why they are not used) >> - tools that read a textual description and generate artwork from it >> (like sequence diagrams) >> - tools that check references (such as to RFCs and IDs, and to catch >> dangling "deep" links, such as when a section number in the = referenced >> document changed) >>=20 >> Best regards, Julian >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_22D8E532-BF9B-49C0-B97A-7D328D96AD8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 6/10/2020, at 2:44 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> = wrote:


On the questions about what people use, I = think it would be good to be clear that we want to know what they use = for drafts they are doing now.  For example. they may have used = nroff lots a long time ago but don=E2=80=99t use it now.

I=E2=80= =99ve switched all the questions to the present tense "How often do you = use =E2=80=A6".  I could add "currently" "How often do you = currently use =E2=80=A6" ?


I think the = word =E2=80=9Cinvest=E2=80=9D in the "Should the IETF invest in a new, = modern toolchain for authoring drafts?=E2=80=9D is very loaded. Many = people will interpret that is create something specific for IETF. I = think =E2=80=9Cmove to=E2=80=9D might be a better word than invest./

That=E2=80=99s a good point.  We don=E2=80=99t = want any views on IETF finances to sway the answer to this = question.

Jay




On Oct 5, 2020, at 5:23 AM, Julian Reschke = <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 01.10.2020 um 19:09 schrieb Jay Daley:
The updated survey is = below.  Please note that

- this = doesn=E2=80=99t show the links
- I am still not sure how = to point people to their Datatracker stats page
- the flow = logic may change when the survey is tested.

Further feedback is most welcome.

Jay
...

Sorry for late feedback :-)

This = is good, thanks!

The one missing thing I = currently can think of is an option to provide
information = about other tools in use to either *generate* source, or to
validate it.

For instance:

- automatic *extraction* of sourcecode (such = as ABNF) with the goal of
validation (and maybe = re-inserting into an appendix)
- automatic *insertion* of = source code
- automatic generation of document parts (such = as reference tables)
- preprocessors that extend the XML = vocabulary and generate "plain" xml2rfc
- use of SVG tools = (or reasons why they are not used)
- tools that read a = textual description and generate artwork from it
(like = sequence diagrams)
- tools that check references (such as = to RFCs and IDs, and to catch
dangling "deep" links, such = as when a section number in the referenced
document = changed)

Best regards, Julian

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and = mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to = datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report = tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and = mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to = datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report = tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_22D8E532-BF9B-49C0-B97A-7D328D96AD8A-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 13:14:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD333A0F80 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:13:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5_imwvsSbFzi; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C380D3A0F7D; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CC927B46-BF60-4A70-98E8-331F84C67856" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:13:53 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Matthew Hodgson , Tools Team Discussion To: Dave Cridland References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:13:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CC927B46-BF60-4A70-98E8-331F84C67856 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dave > On 5/10/2020, at 11:05 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew Hodgson > wrote: > * By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of it. IETF=20= > is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as=20 > irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is=20= > off the cards anyway. >=20 > I certainly agree that the best course of action is to have a IM = solution that is as compatible with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I think, = served the IETF community well over the past decade or so, and existing = deployed solutions - like Meetecho and the IETF Jabber server itself - = have worked with reasonable effectiveness. The XMPP community, vendors = and independent developers, have offered help with improving this too = (and many from the XMPP community have gone on to do wider work within = the IETF world). >=20 > I, too, am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web = technologies to be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology = with specifications published through a recognised standards group and = multiple interoperable implementations. One might as well use the = criteria of "It's programmed in ANSI C". >=20 > But I'm also, I confess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the = likes of Zulip (which I've never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is = that public XMPP services are not easily found, and yet simultaneously = "XMPP is off the cards", and no public accounts will be offered. >=20 > What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and = hosting a web client? This was ruled out by previous IETF leadership and has remained the = policy since. Technically and operationally it would be trivial to add. I proposed the addition of user accounts a few months ago to the IESG = and the Tools Team in order to address the feedback from the IETF 107 = post-meeting survey, and the main concern expressed was that they would = appear to be "official" jabber accounts and therefore representative of = the IETF. By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are specifically = named as trials and therefore do not incur that risk. =20 As that proposal was being considered, the community introduced the IETF = Slack space and there were discussions in the SHMOO WG about this whole = area. In that context it did not seem appropriate to make such a change = as that might be seen as acting inconsistently with the emerging = community process. I would be interested in views on this. Jay >=20 > Dave. > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_CC927B46-BF60-4A70-98E8-331F84C67856 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Dave

On 5/10/2020, at 11:05 PM, Dave = Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:



On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew Hodgson <matthew@matrix.org> = wrote:
  * By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of = it. IETF
is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as
irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is =
off the cards anyway.

I certainly agree that the best course = of action is to have a IM solution that is as compatible with XMPP as = possible. XMPP has, I think, served the IETF community well over the = past decade or so, and existing deployed solutions - like Meetecho and = the IETF Jabber server itself - have worked with reasonable = effectiveness. The XMPP community, vendors and independent developers, = have offered help with improving this too (and many from the XMPP = community have gone on to do wider work within the IETF = world).

I, = too, am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web = technologies to be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology = with specifications published through a recognised standards group = and multiple interoperable implementations. One might as well use the = criteria of "It's programmed in ANSI C".

But I'm also, I confess, bewildered = that the stated aim of using the likes of Zulip (which I've never heard = of before, sorry) and Slack is that public XMPP services are not easily = found, and yet simultaneously "XMPP is off the cards", and no public = accounts will be offered.

What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP = server and hosting a web = client?

This was ruled out by previous IETF leadership and = has remained the policy since.  Technically and operationally it = would be trivial to add.

I proposed = the addition of user accounts a few months ago to the IESG and the Tools = Team in order to address the feedback from the IETF 107 post-meeting = survey, and the main concern expressed was that they would appear to be = "official" jabber accounts and therefore representative of the IETF. =  By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are specifically named = as trials and therefore do not incur that risk.  

As that proposal was being considered, the = community introduced the IETF Slack space and there were discussions in = the SHMOO WG about this whole area.  In that context it did not = seem appropriate to make such a change as that might be seen as acting = inconsistently with the emerging community process.

I would be interested in views on = this.

Jay


Dave.
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and = mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to = datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report = tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_CC927B46-BF60-4A70-98E8-331F84C67856-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 13:23:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EF83A0F8A for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:23:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4l-wIjGrsVyo for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5F403A0AEE for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.196] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA5081DAD6 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 16:22:56 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1601929376; bh=HbgwfdkhoHjm9QAQdMbk5c1em+/fqjTbd533k+cs9Kw=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:From; b=ggwP2n8vr+jVovqmxk0z5sw0bGEbC2Vdy9dgPGoIsNrNkGmEhe4Q7i+zkrgPAQUn7 75GHO3l3ofjADv49KH2vbj3/xjACqi8WTQgS9d4cfMh3xxX8vC67R5B4P+LE90yZxh YXCcmYDrpi5YBdaPhzbAcdS82g1lBNaGsGY1o5oH5bSs05ZZ9brKSWGTd7hbTImJ85 9xJFGZg+Coc8q2CGp35Nv6dRzQqdfXKrhBWRY+xe331sUQxY5SrPDKKZGf5+1BBQ/r HVxpm/75euO29tpmtbnOpMGc35GbLm8jxWMFtODIO+S8VPRwygsx+oQmat4nMQ+qNj dYweFl4J14C7w== From: Tom Pusateri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 16:22:55 -0400 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> Message-Id: <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:23:01 -0000 > On Oct 1, 2020, at 10:25 AM, Robert Sparks = wrote: >=20 > We are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to gain > operational experience and get community feedback about how well these > services meet the need for IETF related chat. >=20 > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) = that many > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem. This is partly = due to > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client = issues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to = improve the > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative = groupchat > solution. The community has already taken a step on the latter path = with the > introduction of an IETF Slack space, and we want to ensure that this = path is > properly explored by widening the range of options to well established > free/open source tools. As the Internet standards organization, I think we bear a special = responsibility to eat our own dog food. Our job isn=E2=80=99t just to = publish a bunch of specs that people may use, but to iterate over = solutions that don=E2=80=99t meet the needs of the Internet community = and make them better. In my opinion, we should not be switching from XMPP to a new chat = service without first opening a working group to look into what failed = and how to move back to an IETF standards protocol for chat in the = future. According to Robert above, it=E2=80=99s a client and server availability = problem (not necessarily a protocol problem). Why do vendors not want to = support XMPP? Likely because a walled garden is more profitable for = them. Is that what the IETF should be encouraging? If the XMPP protocol is not sufficient (I understand Matrix is quite = well designed), then the IETF should be standardizing something better = (even if that means standardizing Matrix). This should be the first step. Tom From nobody Mon Oct 5 14:12:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EF63A0FB1 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQUH0zRePdBV for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32FBF3A0A21 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id h7so7519040wre.4 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:12:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=to8QhHknpnPOU9kAZODiTBB+LEY7PKFGAHHJELWdk4w=; b=MxKAIxtNt+l6ywtw5MHPwjQETjPEgeT+E8oPQzQjgiXGqZRM2if29elIif6MfFWrzX sPKXBwI2F0Yif5B4jebz1GK13TchUYlCnQlHMj9TwIydgZnwDb3B7XnaKW8pk6DjEUq5 Ud79gHt8Q6XJ4zJ9a5b5x5Tz93qDxGoxjZaJ8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=to8QhHknpnPOU9kAZODiTBB+LEY7PKFGAHHJELWdk4w=; b=nOwmka/PRknHNv+NbHrSS83O2LoMAX/eXgfDwilnFDJ8rPOFI6g7niA5H8MEyz/GpP XS4h/D10iDOpnDUvg0DFb3hW7XI/IDFea2sTsX2eLDylvW/WcF/YmNG2EfisjekhnVsn 0aP011iLwBsNfcgedo/fmRlFMQ4ygYRpGpBaerJmjkD4/smDdEBWjnmnwB3ZBwIXA1H6 JOscITQ/MGgYFsJ/4ckVCUPKyCHvE1R8KHAAubHiml5Gdl5V4GPuUgM0LhZfUXEdUNLY JqE8jZrzsZUqI+WPI8B0VK7pwx2s/uxZ1IHXAyNewTlzLF/jM+CwRVyzQ4SUSDx3khZ4 /04w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ms1ukZB7Lq1gwMaNh34uoGmGYtysYRILtNWEbX8Ilz+4d2NPn B4fv2mEu5YTg94/zAgpRijRWRJzxIgORFcqAnsy/tQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzsFaSgAR4wBN6td41TTTZhls9bGFkJ75DUqYtom8MpgL6IfduxBshtRTONxGtCcZicSZjgEOX3u3d+UglBwEQ= X-Received: by 2002:adf:a1cb:: with SMTP id v11mr1257072wrv.86.1601932339495; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:12:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Cridland Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 22:12:08 +0100 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Matthew Hodgson , Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000cdef805b0f2f016" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 21:12:23 -0000 --0000000000000cdef805b0f2f016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:13, Jay Daley wrote: > Dave > > On 5/10/2020, at 11:05 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: > > > > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew Hodgson wrote: > >> * By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of it. IETF >> is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as >> irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is >> off the cards anyway. > > > I certainly agree that the best course of action is to have a IM solution > that is as compatible with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I think, served the > IETF community well over the past decade or so, and existing deployed > solutions - like Meetecho and the IETF Jabber server itself - have worked > with reasonable effectiveness. The XMPP community, vendors and independent > developers, have offered help with improving this too (and many from the > XMPP community have gone on to do wider work within the IETF world). > > I, too, am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web > technologies to be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology with > specifications published through a recognised standards group and multiple > interoperable implementations. One might as well use the criteria of "It's > programmed in ANSI C". > > But I'm also, I confess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the likes > of Zulip (which I've never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is that public > XMPP services are not easily found, and yet simultaneously "XMPP is off the > cards", and no public accounts will be offered. > > What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and > hosting a web client? > > > This was ruled out by previous IETF leadership and has remained the policy > since. Technically and operationally it would be trivial to add. > > I proposed the addition of user accounts a few months ago to the IESG and > the Tools Team in order to address the feedback from the IETF 107 > post-meeting survey, and the main concern expressed was that they would > appear to be "official" jabber accounts and therefore representative of the > IETF. By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are specifically named as > trials and therefore do not incur that risk. > > So the problem with using an existing service is that it may be inadvertently considered an official stance of the IETF despite an official statement to the contrary, whereas explicitly ruling it out, while that is a stated official stance of the IETF, is not to be considered to mean anything? I'm so glad you have made this crystal clear to me. It is possible to place an XMPP service on a domain other than ietf.org, such as, oh, I don't know, perhaps "trial.ietf.org", if the idea is really to avoid the impression that the IETF's use of its own protocols is somehow an approach worth following. > As that proposal was being considered, the community introduced the IETF > Slack space and there were discussions in the SHMOO WG about this whole > area. In that context it did not seem appropriate to make such a change as > that might be seen as acting inconsistently with the emerging community > process. > > I would be interested in views on this. > > Jay > > > Dave. > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > --0000000000000cdef805b0f2f016 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:13, Jay Dale= y <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
=
Dave

On 5/10/20= 20, at 11:05 PM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:



On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew Hodgson <<= a href=3D"mailto:matthew@matrix.org" target=3D"_blank">matthew@matrix.org> wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0* By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of= it. IETF
is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as
irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is
off the cards anyway.

I certainly agree tha= t the best course of action is to have a IM solution that is as compatible = with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I think, served the IETF community well ov= er the past decade or so, and existing deployed solutions - like Meetecho a= nd the IETF Jabber server itself - have worked with reasonable effectivenes= s. The XMPP community, vendors and independent developers, have offered hel= p with improving this too (and many from the XMPP community have=C2=A0gone = on to do wider work within the IETF world).

I, too= , am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web technologies to= be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology with specifications= published through a recognised standards=C2=A0group and multiple interoper= able implementations. One might as well use the criteria of "It's = programmed in ANSI C".

But I'm also, I co= nfess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the likes of Zulip (which I&= #39;ve never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is that public XMPP services= are not easily found, and yet simultaneously "XMPP is off the cards&q= uot;, and no public accounts will be offered.

What= 's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and hosting= a web client?

This= was ruled out by previous IETF leadership and has remained the policy sinc= e.=C2=A0 Technically and operationally it would be trivial to add.

I proposed the addition of user accounts a few months ago = to the IESG and the Tools Team in order to address the feedback from the IE= TF 107 post-meeting survey, and the main concern expressed was that they wo= uld appear to be "official" jabber accounts and therefore represe= ntative of the IETF.=C2=A0 By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are s= pecifically named as trials and therefore do not incur that risk. =C2=A0


So the probl= em with using an existing service is that it may be inadvertently considere= d an official stance of the IETF despite an official statement to the contr= ary, whereas explicitly ruling it out, while that is a stated official stan= ce of the IETF, is not to be considered to mean anything? I'm so glad y= ou have made this crystal clear to me.

It is possi= ble to place an XMPP service on a domain other than ietf.org, such as, oh, I don't know, perhaps "trial.ietf.org", if the idea is really to a= void the impression that the IETF's use of its own protocols is somehow= an approach worth following.
=C2=A0
<= div>
As that proposal was being considered, the community introdu= ced the IETF Slack space and there were discussions in the SHMOO WG about t= his whole area.=C2=A0 In that context it did not seem appropriate to make s= uch a change as that might be seen as acting inconsistently with the emergi= ng community process.

I would be interested in vie= ws on this.

Jay


Dave.=
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discus= s mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools= .ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
<= br>Please report tools.= ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools= .ietf.org

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

--0000000000000cdef805b0f2f016-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 14:29:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4850F3A0FB8 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:29:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ll_3VtcxBuaw; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4D1263A0FB6; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:29:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <64250CB3-F4F8-4D25-B378-6FB428CD64B7@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_75647EF9-C848-467D-93F6-E2C1CF1F88EB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 10:29:46 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Matthew Hodgson , Tools Team Discussion To: Dave Cridland References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 21:29:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_75647EF9-C848-467D-93F6-E2C1CF1F88EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 6/10/2020, at 10:12 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:13, Jay Daley > wrote: > Dave >=20 >> On 5/10/2020, at 11:05 PM, Dave Cridland > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew Hodgson > wrote: >> * By deriding the bridge, you're just harming both sides of it. = IETF=20 >> is less likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as=20 >> irredeemably bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP = is=20 >> off the cards anyway. >>=20 >> I certainly agree that the best course of action is to have a IM = solution that is as compatible with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I think, = served the IETF community well over the past decade or so, and existing = deployed solutions - like Meetecho and the IETF Jabber server itself - = have worked with reasonable effectiveness. The XMPP community, vendors = and independent developers, have offered help with improving this too = (and many from the XMPP community have gone on to do wider work within = the IETF world). >>=20 >> I, too, am unclear why we declare anything built privately on web = technologies to be the moral equivalent of an open standard technology = with specifications published through a recognised standards group and = multiple interoperable implementations. One might as well use the = criteria of "It's programmed in ANSI C". >>=20 >> But I'm also, I confess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the = likes of Zulip (which I've never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is = that public XMPP services are not easily found, and yet simultaneously = "XMPP is off the cards", and no public accounts will be offered. >>=20 >> What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and = hosting a web client? >=20 > This was ruled out by previous IETF leadership and has remained the = policy since. Technically and operationally it would be trivial to add. >=20 > I proposed the addition of user accounts a few months ago to the IESG = and the Tools Team in order to address the feedback from the IETF 107 = post-meeting survey, and the main concern expressed was that they would = appear to be "official" jabber accounts and therefore representative of = the IETF. By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are specifically = named as trials and therefore do not incur that risk. =20 >=20 >=20 > So the problem with using an existing service is that it may be = inadvertently considered an official stance of the IETF despite an = official statement to the contrary, whereas explicitly ruling it out, = while that is a stated official stance of the IETF, is not to be = considered to mean anything? I'm so glad you have made this crystal = clear to me. >=20 > It is possible to place an XMPP service on a domain other than = ietf.org , such as, oh, I don't know, perhaps = "trial.ietf.org ", if the idea is really to = avoid the impression that the IETF's use of its own protocols is somehow = an approach worth following. I will let the Tools Team respond to that, other than to note that = exactly the same point could have been reached without the sarcasm. Jay > =20 > As that proposal was being considered, the community introduced the = IETF Slack space and there were discussions in the SHMOO WG about this = whole area. In that context it did not seem appropriate to make such a = change as that might be seen as acting inconsistently with the emerging = community process. >=20 > I would be interested in views on this. >=20 > Jay >=20 >>=20 >> Dave. >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and = mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb = >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org = >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues = >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org = >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_75647EF9-C848-467D-93F6-E2C1CF1F88EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 6/10/2020, at 10:12 AM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> = wrote:



On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:13, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
Dave

On 5/10/2020, at 11:05 PM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:



On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Matthew = Hodgson <matthew@matrix.org> wrote:
  * By deriding the = bridge, you're just harming both sides of it. IETF 
is less = likely to use Matrix if they believe its XMPP bridge is as 
irredeemably = bad as you say; and meanwhile it sounds like pure XMPP is 
off the = cards anyway.

I certainly agree that the best course of action is to have a = IM solution that is as compatible with XMPP as possible. XMPP has, I = think, served the IETF community well over the past decade or so, and = existing deployed solutions - like Meetecho and the IETF Jabber server = itself - have worked with reasonable effectiveness. The XMPP community, = vendors and independent developers, have offered help with improving = this too (and many from the XMPP community have gone on to do wider = work within the IETF world).

I, too, am unclear why we declare = anything built privately on web technologies to be the moral equivalent = of an open standard technology with specifications published through a = recognised standards group and multiple interoperable = implementations. One might as well use the criteria of "It's programmed = in ANSI C".

But = I'm also, I confess, bewildered that the stated aim of using the likes = of Zulip (which I've never heard of before, sorry) and Slack is that = public XMPP services are not easily found, and yet simultaneously "XMPP = is off the cards", and no public accounts will be offered.

What's the blocker to = offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and hosting a web = client?

This was ruled out by previous IETF = leadership and has remained the policy since.  Technically and = operationally it would be trivial to add.

I proposed the addition of user = accounts a few months ago to the IESG and the Tools Team in order to = address the feedback from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey, and the main = concern expressed was that they would appear to be "official" jabber = accounts and therefore representative of the IETF.  By contrast the = zulip and matrix instances are specifically named as trials and = therefore do not incur that risk.  


So the problem with using an existing = service is that it may be inadvertently considered an official stance of = the IETF despite an official statement to the contrary, whereas = explicitly ruling it out, while that is a stated official stance of the = IETF, is not to be considered to mean anything? I'm so glad you have = made this crystal clear to me.

It is possible to place an XMPP service = on a domain other than ietf.org, such as, oh, I don't know, perhaps "trial.ietf.org", if the = idea is really to avoid the impression that the IETF's use of its own = protocols is somehow an approach worth = following.

I = will let the Tools Team respond to that, other than to note that exactly = the same point could have been reached without the = sarcasm.

Jay


 
As that proposal was being considered, the community = introduced the IETF Slack space and there were discussions in the SHMOO = WG about this whole area.  In that context it did not seem = appropriate to make such a change as that might be seen as acting = inconsistently with the emerging community process.

I would be interested in = views on this.

Jay


Dave.
________________________________________= ___________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send = email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send = email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_75647EF9-C848-467D-93F6-E2C1CF1F88EB-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 14:36:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2976E3A0FBA for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:36:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4pVBQiOp45Tq for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B9F63A0FB8 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id e18so5288783wrw.9 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=suOqKqAFcmDNeacL2FvQX0kd8mxuZ3nxCMIYRSUeVqE=; b=UXXdNSwtpQm2SXuEvN5fVW4i164qE/StBNyc1CwPUrfbUDwk5iM+2dX1Y7LQycJAX5 XiYM8ixjPvXYCi3Da5nd9yn3gpcQCLzMquKtCNwqvolANXreiA8TYP9nEABeC/DSpifa lVNcccOmgeOL/sqWTuA3frAHXswmgbehwfyvY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=suOqKqAFcmDNeacL2FvQX0kd8mxuZ3nxCMIYRSUeVqE=; b=Y2Gb6YQnkN/tvjEW2pdoruihl5a1ZZKxQNrM4vHoaGZoRGN2FSvSrx0cf/FWvxP4zP Ajf87juz1xkvhZtjKxtTXnZuXOFOH08TRKwjW2M5mcCwZAzHswXpCNkvRy7S/1dEVjLu 53FW2XN4cs7PjLk6cTsrbWsRK/0DaooGS/sdq7t0hZNX47RGJ+MepHJEMASR6AYnFNqD iSuejN2GTd0qcKiaSFFY6638Nx/qY/JMbBX/GrZtwg7ghk5ZAFYIyjdz+eCnuWHtJTwk SizRdZrRrbWyLLy9dr4vB/Sn0GtJJvu+CSuYiPCZhk8rA8aXU+tnY/zPF5JglOXCUJ7t 3WMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cBiIwrG59q/iU+Ta6a9+2W340kTom+Rz2bIx1vzrEZPxNsZF3 L83uO+p+TQ4luI6NbVgcT1Y+YlctgUGSP/efWuhpAsXJOaM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxa4qMSsdpbdipOnAukYbFxvoYyVplUSPU21MrLW7JZr3KgmEeevGXWGpOupuDjT+KftgL512uCkEt5Y0r3Zm8= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e7c8:: with SMTP id e8mr1430245wrn.358.1601933794314; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:36:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> In-Reply-To: <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> From: Dave Cridland Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 22:36:22 +0100 Message-ID: To: Tom Pusateri Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c3ac5a05b0f346fb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 21:36:38 -0000 --000000000000c3ac5a05b0f346fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:23, Tom Pusateri wrote: > In my opinion, we should not be switching from XMPP to a new chat service > without first opening a working group to look into what failed and how to > move back to an IETF standards protocol for chat in the future. > > According to Robert above, it=E2=80=99s a client and server availability = problem > (not necessarily a protocol problem). Why do vendors not want to support > XMPP? Likely because a walled garden is more profitable for them. Is that > what the IETF should be encouraging? > > XMPP is very widely used - almost every military uses it, and if an online game uses any kind of open standard for chat it is XMPP - including Fortnite, for example. These uses are not generally very visible, and often not on the internet itself at all - but some are federated cases (such as the military's use), and others are very large. Some are smaller, like that of my own employer. Servers are readily available, the majority of XMPP services use open source servers, and there at least 6 actively maintained and well used interopable implementations (for those that want to count them: ejabberd, MongooseIM, Openfire, Tigase, Prosody, and Isode's M-Link - the latter being the only one not to be open source). It wouldn't surprise me if there are more; there certainly have been others. Clients are harder, because "consumer" and "enterprise" markets are the weakest the weakest area of use, and these tend to drive client development - but really this is no different to email, where email clients, and indeed the protocols they use to connect to services, are not interoperable standards. The XMPP world normally uses a bespoke client, but it still speaks XMPP's C2S protocol. This means that productized general client experiences are niche, and generally driven purely by the open source community (which does a pretty good job given the circumstances) - again, this is essentially the same as the email world. But Fortnite, for example, *is* an XMPP client - albeit with some kind of game attached. If having 350 million users counts as failure, it's the kind of failure that I'm happy to aspire to. If XMPP can be considered to have failed, then it's that it has indeed not persuaded the likes of Google, Facebook, and so on into open federation and interoperability. Google did it several IM systems back, but abandoned it. No matter what protocol the IETF chose to replace it with, it seems unlikely that this direction, at least, will reverse - but that is not a technical problem but a business one. Sadly, I believe the email world is headed the same way - witness the mangling of your email address. > If the XMPP protocol is not sufficient (I understand Matrix is quite well > designed), then the IETF should be standardizing something better (even i= f > that means standardizing Matrix). > > This should be the first step. > > Tom > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --000000000000c3ac5a05b0f346fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:23, Tom Pusa= teri <pusateri=3D40bangj.c= om@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
In my opinion, we should not be switching from XMPP to a new chat service w= ithout first opening a working group to look into what failed and how to mo= ve back to an IETF standards protocol for chat in the future.

According to Robert above, it=E2=80=99s a client and server availability pr= oblem (not necessarily a protocol problem). Why do vendors not want to supp= ort XMPP? Likely because a walled garden is more profitable for them. Is th= at what the IETF should be encouraging?


XMPP is very widely used - almost ever= y military uses it, and if an online game uses any kind of open standard fo= r chat it is XMPP - including Fortnite, for example. These uses are not gen= erally very visible, and often not on the internet itself at all - but some= are federated cases (such as the=C2=A0military's use), and others are = very large. Some are smaller, like that of my own employer.

<= /div>
Servers are readily available, the majority of XMPP services use = open source servers,=C2=A0and there at least 6 actively maintained and well= used interopable implementations (for those that want to count them: ejabb= erd, MongooseIM, Openfire, Tigase, Prosody, and Isode's M-Link - the la= tter being the only one not to be open source). It wouldn't surprise me= if there are more; there certainly have been others.

<= div>Clients are harder, because "consumer" and "enterprise&q= uot; markets are the weakest the weakest area of use, and these tend to dri= ve client development=C2=A0- but really this is no different to email, wher= e email clients, and indeed the protocols they use to connect to services, = are not interoperable standards. The XMPP world normally uses a bespoke cli= ent, but it still speaks XMPP's C2S protocol. This means that productiz= ed general client experiences are niche, and generally driven purely by the= open source community (which does a pretty good job given the circumstance= s) - again, this is essentially the same as the email world.

=
But Fortnite, for example, *is* an XMPP client - albeit with som= e kind of game attached. If having 350 million users counts as failure, it&= #39;s the kind of failure that I'm happy to aspire to.

If XMPP can be considered to have=C2=A0failed, then it's that = it has indeed not persuaded the likes of Google, Facebook, and so on into o= pen federation and interoperability. Google did it several IM systems back,= but abandoned it. No matter what protocol the IETF chose to replace it wit= h, it seems unlikely that this direction, at least, will reverse - but that= is not a technical problem but a business one. Sadly, I believe the email = world is headed the same way - witness the mangling of your email address.<= /div>
=C2=A0
If the XMPP protocol is not sufficient (I understand Matrix is quite well d= esigned), then the IETF should be standardizing something better (even if t= hat means standardizing Matrix).

This should be the first step.

Tom

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu= ss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--000000000000c3ac5a05b0f346fb-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 14:40:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883953A0FC0 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:40:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sLcXtYKndN6j for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C14BC3A0FBA for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id t10so11215991wrv.1 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:40:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nC49O7tP6KIRFnKEoZf3tX/lWge3sZqbJSaZ+AiFQy4=; b=JuvNr+CkKluD54I4J4286oxtmZLaOYmsqETcklRI+oDUoJ3BOOVnkLwx4AchJROlXU YtcPNPWP/pYOFE+0OPqbO/yadq4CLm/zjZQ8KS8mpWsRNz4u1uIwcZaA3AoP6/U1+Knb jys9N+5z8kpbPNUYc3gkWK1NjR1H0+WqbcBBA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nC49O7tP6KIRFnKEoZf3tX/lWge3sZqbJSaZ+AiFQy4=; b=I7Qq1ayLuMpmy4TVJNY86ErWHh8P3BUBMkcYSIJo9eFOXM1kEhAE7IVxcl54Gv0H2n yExBjmDs/7rzjuqjPVhVkRAFXNIpRzv5JpCu90rilWw0hPgd7DtxKYCE7z+9JrNEidzL yGdcIs71OaHgDxA9JdppZXR85M1bWMHBxnoiB29JNtqzAKUFCF1NUIswaEM9q3UZq/li kCY0nSsmGv4/H4lfZE+M7qEXbWHVSF70hTjNLeP+whdvCVdimIJjf1vRDs8cEXLiKukk JyBjOtvnGdYErUdONyjqQ9XZs9Hs/WqrJhJCr/YOf737MF55O8m/8DEkbm8ck7Laaofl HgIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305Jmi6Q96qPsW6LNPswBru1Mg4tnZjE0ZGkKotsxYy/S2t5WyN wSpijhqFnz2ca5C4G2XQNJ9vWurpd3njY9ik4EKpQA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwcZTyhIEPEaNG7jdPnM9Rv53ETazNxf5B06ho/xC1QmkTCrXH6Vp61tc2m99g4GccG/pANEAKUbJ5OfvUkU7U= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f984:: with SMTP id f4mr1382629wrr.102.1601934036002; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:40:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> <64250CB3-F4F8-4D25-B378-6FB428CD64B7@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <64250CB3-F4F8-4D25-B378-6FB428CD64B7@ietf.org> From: Dave Cridland Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 22:40:25 +0100 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Matthew Hodgson , Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b84b705b0f35549" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 21:40:40 -0000 --0000000000002b84b705b0f35549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 22:29, Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 6/10/2020, at 10:12 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > > So the problem with using an existing service is that it may be > inadvertently considered an official stance of the IETF despite an official > statement to the contrary, whereas explicitly ruling it out, while that is > a stated official stance of the IETF, is not to be considered to mean > anything? I'm so glad you have made this crystal clear to me. > > It is possible to place an XMPP service on a domain other than ietf.org, > such as, oh, I don't know, perhaps "trial.ietf.org", if the idea is > really to avoid the impression that the IETF's use of its own protocols is > somehow an approach worth following. > > > I will let the Tools Team respond to that, other than to note that exactly > the same point could have been reached without the sarcasm. > > Perhaps so. But not, I assure you, without the exasperation. Dave. --0000000000002b84b705b0f35549 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 22:29, Jay Dale= y <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
=


On 6/10/2020, = at 10:12 AM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:

So the problem with using an exi= sting service is that it may be inadvertently considered an official stance= of the IETF despite an official statement to the contrary, whereas explici= tly ruling it out, while that is a stated official stance of the IETF, is n= ot to be considered to mean anything? I'm so glad you have made this cr= ystal clear to me.

It is possible to place an XMPP= service on a domain other than=C2=A0ietf.org, such as, oh, I don't know, perhaps = "trial.ietf.org", if the idea is really to avoid the impression that the IETF's= use of its own protocols is somehow an approach worth following.




--0000000000002b84b705b0f35549-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 14:50:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ED73A0FC1 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QpxI7QQDjcsU for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x743.google.com (mail-qk1-x743.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::743]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E09743A095D for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x743.google.com with SMTP id f142so14166849qke.13 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:50:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ec7HLDfAKg8cBuEoiPosrBelIj63y9b0NfLNSC1cf98=; b=ANlcRJtEkycAzJXW/W54q7ZOxvrq7i7NNHkdZwcewDtjO9Q+bIzdw6ugjToHdkCS3d 7jeI6fr+/i183GLZNzjgEaFSeDLC+Y4cA3RhIsBauluF7j84201sLJR6CU5Yj82Md2/K YPMweF2Ip3qQPQ9SJwaeqEMoNQGMAeNqqt8JnP4gatBysE1pw5IFiGpJy2LAHkGP4G2k 8nJZuZgRrPKXI1NzPQqXwzVkKu7+l4I5AG92GuUTzbgJD8B7UGaIP8Bwvb00XQcujMiQ 4asz0TYNEJoJ9W4hYsce4NA1O+Rs1i9TPO9VD1neygomzfpSWFc9kjhIqPChsfrPAUoj dIuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ec7HLDfAKg8cBuEoiPosrBelIj63y9b0NfLNSC1cf98=; b=qmnDmAEgT3+Cx/IDaGhNHmbVh2idccGzNCT9fUjgVpfkYrxaq4jAtbYk46x+KKtGKD yX+cUX9awfmi9sERbVQobwbv8p6MX02XkffnbaCLgcFL3Uc63XgusL1DulTdqrpUV3iB Hew0WYymuVMXzMWzgBDRt1+UVI+qTVVwol4Ql0hdrHBT/2ExiTB2oht26cAeXcfCk/Pz aclIspPQ0KXJYE22BybjIJJCDEsNO3A81WTBVvCEouCop2Tg4Vge6u27vlU3spR3JGLS qvls3p5lu9lOqtc231qL8FATyKJLOCfxrvEfrs76ZsRH3ORwRYrez8aTU5QdT/UYSC6i 4jxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ugfYeBjeK4Y8ZmyMaLlMeYXyTVKHidEmAtGHutuIVpIc212JF 0/fcD6/L0x8HE46lGT4rVE6m5ZsFduKOiooEZ5blK8FlqVw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwdDyW0xZZtfbjG1xHXaNIByJ9vTd6mfJIJAGAeVrMO7pnmd/Bk6oOrrHiDKgDS6iNGE2IoJjJtQIa4ubtyypw= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f701:: with SMTP id s1mr2302931qkg.446.1601934642953; Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:50:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> In-Reply-To: <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> From: Matthew Wild Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 22:50:31 +0100 Message-ID: To: Tom Pusateri Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 21:50:46 -0000 On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:23, Tom Pusateri wrote: > As the Internet standards organization, I think we bear a special respons= ibility to eat our own dog food. Our job isn=E2=80=99t just to publish a bu= nch of specs that people may use, but to iterate over solutions that don=E2= =80=99t meet the needs of the Internet community and make them better. > > In my opinion, we should not be switching from XMPP to a new chat service= without first opening a working group to look into what failed and how to = move back to an IETF standards protocol for chat in the future. I happen to agree that an internet standards organization should aim to use its own internet standards. That said, I don't think the dog-fooding principle should take precedence over having functional communication within the organisation. Luckily in this case that shouldn't be necessary, as the problems with the current XMPP deployment can be resolved with minimal effort. > According to Robert above, it=E2=80=99s a client and server availability = problem (not necessarily a protocol problem). Why do vendors not want to su= pport XMPP? Likely because a walled garden is more profitable for them. Is = that what the IETF should be encouraging? There are numerous commercial and non-commercial XMPP projects, both servers and clients. It's true that the world doesn't run on XMPP in the way it runs on email, but I don't think the blame for that rests on the protocol (i.e. the protocol that Google ran at scale for about 10 years, quite possibly their longest-lived communication product apart from Gmail). You are right that walled gardens are easier and more profitable in the general case. Many organisations of all sizes and in all sectors rely heavily on XMPP, even if it's not necessarily considered trendy and newsworthy at this point. > If the XMPP protocol is not sufficient (I understand Matrix is quite well= designed), then the IETF should be standardizing something better (even if= that means standardizing Matrix). I believe Matrix is a sufficiently different model to XMPP that it totally deserves to be standardized, though in parallel to XMPP rather than a successor. The two protocols are very different, although interoperability within a certain feature set is totally possible (and I'm happy to see, being worked on). But on the primary topic... There are numerous things that can be done to modernize and improve the current IETF XMPP deployment. The protocol and implementations have evolved much through the decades, but jabber.ietf.org less so. Small things like allowing account registration and providing a web client would go a long way to solve most of the issues I've seen reported. Regards, Matthew From nobody Mon Oct 5 17:38:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892773A1446; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 17:38:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wHpL0pT1jNhF; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 17:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B3443A0F12; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 17:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F87389C4; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 20:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id vPtv41E_h5z5; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 20:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C15389C2; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 20:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DF36A; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 20:38:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , Dave Cridland , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 00:38:42 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: > I proposed the addition of user accounts a few months ago to the IESG > and the Tools Team in order to address the feedback from the IETF 107 > post-meeting survey, and the main concern expressed was that they wou= ld > appear to be "official" jabber accounts and therefore representative = of > the IETF. By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are specifically > named as trials and therefore do not incur that risk. Unless they weren't @ietf.org. I'm sure this community has a few under utilized domains that could be used. I think I'd even offer ox.org. > As that proposal was being considered, the community introduced the > IETF Slack space and there were discussions in the SHMOO WG about this > whole area. In that context it did not seem appropriate to make such= a > change as that might be seen as acting inconsistently with the emergi= ng > community process. > I would be interested in views on this. Even if we think Matrix or Tulip is so awesome that we'd want to run it tomorrow, we probably want to host accounts on some domain. So we run into the same concern. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl97vIwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVprwgAoJS9/SljVSsvSWHm68x5c2vzL2kit6IEL4gSBO+/McWXiI8EX2X6JkBm Lk3cExe3wDbszhAv0kHnZ4ieVNNPsELOmtmB9r/2+dXg9qycsu/L8xiG050/o8+d KsGxg+nb7pNLq+CEXYtem7jfBQ3/g/B2zCPDKwn0xRzg0UVXFAMowCmSwARjCV7G P7BFLp0pzlFore5xWi729jZaYh3HS9HS4xUx70H24AC5Xo9cnmH0UiYYkSl4fVY5 v7ePJKePB9+DdfJLEw4OUWa9pBVbrTEssNB0g0kah4o3CEmKyu3YeoZO/qA8FfWj zU7gpyJaQpzaoT1Io1U6mgl0r7k82w== =HZ05 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 5 17:56:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4765D3A0844 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 17:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 5 Oct 2020 20:55:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-382-ge235179-fm-20200928.002-ge2351794 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 11:55:31 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming disruptive changes to Docker Hub and CI services X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 00:55:59 -0000 For those people using Circle or Travis for continuous integration of their drafts, a change to the way that Docker Hub authorizes access to docker images will likely break all continuous integration builds. https://docs.docker.com/docker-hub/download-rate-limit/ and https://www.docker.com/blog/scaling-docker-to-serve-millions-more-developers-network-egress/ explain that limits will be applied to client IP ranges, which obviously leads to CI services being adversely affected. This will likely break any flow that doesn't use GitHub Actions. GitHub use their own image repository so are unaffected. Circle have provided this information: https://circleci.com/docs/2.0/private-images/ Anyone looking to avoid this rate limiting will (likely) need to make some manual changes to their .circleci/config.yml file and build configuration. I'm not currently aware of any way to avoid this extra configuration step. Any ideas for how this might be automated or how automation might help would be appreciated. From nobody Mon Oct 5 23:22:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04253A11B9; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 23:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Y2pZXTs_j4d; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 23:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 578ED3A11B5; Mon, 5 Oct 2020 23:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C56pB42zRzyW6; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 08:22:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 08:22:41 +0200 Cc: Dave Cridland , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623658161.889913-2d854e5e77ae55894a679805decd52e7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org> <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de> <842400f7-479d-af0b-3eee-8ad874480ebd@matrix.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 06:22:47 -0000 On 2020-10-05, at 22:13, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> What's the blocker to offering accounts on the IETF XMPP server and = hosting a web client? >=20 > This was ruled out by previous IETF leadership and has remained the = policy since. Technically and operationally it would be trivial to add. >=20 > I proposed the addition of user accounts a few months ago to the IESG = and the Tools Team in order to address the feedback from the IETF 107 = post-meeting survey, and the main concern expressed was that they would = appear to be "official" jabber accounts and therefore representative of = the IETF. By contrast the zulip and matrix instances are specifically = named as trials and therefore do not incur that risk. =20 Note that many of us already have an ietf.org email address, which would = seem to incur the same kind of risk. For me that would be: cabo=3D40tzi.org@dmarc.ietf.org (except that that part of the DMARC hardening currently doesn=E2=80=99t = quite work, but that is a different issue). I wonder if we couldn=E2=80=99t do the equivalent for XMPP. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Oct 6 03:05:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBCF3A1386; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 03:05:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OFsfI7-OPALI; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 03:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18F463A1387; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 03:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 096A5rCx011292; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:05:53 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 26CD5204036; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:05:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140AB203ECE; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:05:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 096A5qm6023403; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:05:53 +0200 To: "Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , Tom Pusateri Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:05:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 10:05:57 -0000 Le 05/10/2020 à 18:19, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) a écrit : > We shouldn't focus too hard on the implementation of the audio feeds, it's a technical problem that can be solved. > The hard part is how this is exposed to users, and what tools are available along with the necessary configuration (hopefully small or nonexistent). > Ideally clicking on a link in the meeting webpages should enable listening to the audio feed with no prerequisite at all, regardless of your device's platform. If this is not possible there should be an easy walkthrough of what needs to be done depending on the platform. > Adding Opus to the conversation could be nice, but may contradict the "ideal" scenario above (e.g. do ALL browsers support Opus ?). The question of browser support, and its details, is relevant. For example, meetecho is best supported by Chrome and less by Firefox (lacks device switching). That might prevent some people from using meetecho instead of installing Chrome. Which translates directly into preventing them from participating to IETF. For opus - firefox does support opus, it seems. Mp3 might be a format that, despite its longevity, might not be supported by some browsers because of the licensing scheme. Other than browsers, there also the players: there are many players of live streams out there, which are not web browsers. Many of these players dont support mp3. Alex > Best regards, > Julien. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Manycouches On Behalf Of Tom Pusateri > Sent: Monday, October 5, 2020 5:57 PM > To: Alexandre Petrescu > Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; manycouches@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings > > >> On Oct 5, 2020, at 2:35 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> It would be advantageous to continue the streaming of audio, for a >> registration-less observer read-only kind of participation. >> >> Maybe a thing to improve is the format of the data. A better >> performing format than mp3, why not an IETF recent technology (ogg?), >> with a better support from free software tools that are widely available, could be good. >> >> Alex > > Do you maybe mean Opus (RFC 6716)? > > I like it when the IETF uses open technologies like this and it seems most operating systems support it now. > > Opus also supports multi-channel audio which would be great for multiple microphones. > > I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle. We need a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore widespread access to the streams. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Tue Oct 6 03:22:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D013A139E; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 03:22:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB5453.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: efb0af47-9d86-4446-3eb8-08d869e1a8bf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Oct 2020 10:21:59.1289 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dTQxushDFcOAzfZjQMZ/vmxlvN1vsxv++YfgYg+t6dKsxWUJAPyQls8SPWdPMO+Voe4PiH2NnXUE/q1StM7LYu2p6KtG/5b6r375KhYPO1Q= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB4784 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 10:22:05 -0000 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cyBvcGVuIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMgYW5kIGl0IHNlZW1zIG1vc3Qgb3BlcmF0aW5n IHN5c3RlbXMgc3VwcG9ydCBpdCBub3cuDQo+IA0KPiBPcHVzIGFsc28gc3VwcG9ydHMgbXVsdGkt Y2hhbm5lbCBhdWRpbyB3aGljaCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCBmb3IgbXVsdGlwbGUgbWljcm9waG9u ZXMuDQo+IA0KPiBJIHdvdWxkIHN1cHBvcnQgdXNpbmcgT3B1cyBvdmVyIE1QMyBidXQgdGhhdCBp cyBub3QgdGhlIG1haW4gb2JzdGFjbGUuIFdlIG5lZWQgYSB3YXkgdG8gbWFwIGxpdmUgc3RyZWFt cyB0byBzZXNzaW9ucyBpbiB0aGUgQVBJIHRvIHJlc3RvcmUgd2lkZXNwcmVhZCBhY2Nlc3MgdG8g dGhlIHN0cmVhbXMuDQo+IA0KPiBUaGFua3MsDQo+IFRvbQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBNYW55Y291Y2hlcyBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTWFueWNvdWNoZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9tYW55Y291Y2hlcw0KPiANCg== From nobody Tue Oct 6 04:21:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 307E33A1412; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 04:21:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXL2FY8j03OQ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 04:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E45EC3A138B; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 04:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 096BL6YI014388; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 13:21:06 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B875A204D58; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 13:21:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5CEC2040AC; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 13:21:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 096BL6RC007202; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 13:21:06 +0200 To: "Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , Tom Pusateri Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <501830bf-f6a7-2daf-5b0a-31711499de44@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <8289980e-10cf-b0e3-c891-8b9ef766f513@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 13:21:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 11:21:12 -0000 Julien, Thanks for the info! I did not know that MP3 patents expired. It's been so many years indeed. Now I saw that lame mp3 is part of Audacity, while earlier one had to install it separately, almost crossing a red light. I dont know whether lame mp3 is part of audacity because patents expired or because audacity takes more responsibility on their shoulders. Now I notice some explanations at Fraunhofer saying that "mp3 can be made available as an optional part of the xHE-AAC software package." or that "However, the end of the mp3 licensing program does not automatically mean that all mp3 technology is available license-free now. Apart from the core mp3 patents included in the licensing program, there might still be some implementation–specific patents (or patents for other functional enhancements) that have not expired. Thus, manufacturers will have to check the situation regarding their intended products first before including mp3." My intuition ("le pif" :-), as opposed to documented rational understanding, tells me that the same kind licensing of mp3 would continue. They cant change the smell of it after so many years simply with some expiration. Mp3 smells it. There would be a need of a new concept with a new name like 'free-mp3'. On another hand, an IETF technology is likely to benefit from a RAND licensing scheme, which is more advantageous. Alex Le 06/10/2020 à 12:21, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) a écrit : > Alex, > MP3 patents have not been an issue for a while : https://www.theregister.com/2017/05/16/mp3_dies_nobody_noticed/ > Julien. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexandre Petrescu > Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 12:06 PM > To: Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) ; Tom Pusateri > Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; manycouches@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings > > > > Le 05/10/2020 à 18:19, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) a écrit : >> We shouldn't focus too hard on the implementation of the audio feeds, it's a technical problem that can be solved. >> The hard part is how this is exposed to users, and what tools are available along with the necessary configuration (hopefully small or nonexistent). >> Ideally clicking on a link in the meeting webpages should enable listening to the audio feed with no prerequisite at all, regardless of your device's platform. If this is not possible there should be an easy walkthrough of what needs to be done depending on the platform. >> Adding Opus to the conversation could be nice, but may contradict the "ideal" scenario above (e.g. do ALL browsers support Opus ?). > > The question of browser support, and its details, is relevant. For example, meetecho is best supported by Chrome and less by Firefox (lacks device switching). That might prevent some people from using meetecho instead of installing Chrome. Which translates directly into preventing them from participating to IETF. > > For opus - firefox does support opus, it seems. > > Mp3 might be a format that, despite its longevity, might not be supported by some browsers because of the licensing scheme. > > Other than browsers, there also the players: there are many players of live streams out there, which are not web browsers. Many of these players dont support mp3. > > Alex > >> Best regards, >> Julien. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Manycouches On Behalf Of Tom >> Pusateri >> Sent: Monday, October 5, 2020 5:57 PM >> To: Alexandre Petrescu >> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; manycouches@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [Tools-discuss] Proposal to discontinue >> live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings >> >> >>> On Oct 5, 2020, at 2:35 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> It would be advantageous to continue the streaming of audio, for a >>> registration-less observer read-only kind of participation. >>> >>> Maybe a thing to improve is the format of the data. A better >>> performing format than mp3, why not an IETF recent technology (ogg?), >>> with a better support from free software tools that are widely available, could be good. >>> >>> Alex >> >> Do you maybe mean Opus (RFC 6716)? >> >> I like it when the IETF uses open technologies like this and it seems most operating systems support it now. >> >> Opus also supports multi-channel audio which would be great for multiple microphones. >> >> I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle. We need a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore widespread access to the streams. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >> From nobody Tue Oct 6 09:05:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F063E3A0D79 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:05:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MxfWNTKkzqHk for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6579E3A1485 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9014F389BF; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 9k-x6FGYSV6L; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15495389AE; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DACD70D; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:05:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Dave Cridland , Tom Pusateri , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:05:25 -0400 Message-ID: <25969.1602000325@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:05:30 -0000 To me, it feels that XMPP is being called a failure by the entities that want to sell us something else. For me, it's been a great success. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From nobody Tue Oct 6 09:08:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0BD3A0B56 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:08:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gjA2qgNHWlzV for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 297C93A07B0 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:08:01 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 33xmmwrweq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:08:00 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:08:00 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:08:00 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Michael Richardson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip Thread-Index: AQHWl//LvLAhwskPdUW16wBP9TGndKmJvayAgAAUhQCAATXegP//vaoA Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 16:08:00 +0000 Message-ID: <59437D57-4E38-46C7-981F-85983F690574@akamai.com> References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> <25969.1602000325@localhost> In-Reply-To: <25969.1602000325@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.40.20081201 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-10-06_06:2020-10-06, 2020-10-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=838 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2010060100 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-10-06_09:2020-10-06, 2020-10-06 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:08:05 -0000 PiAgICBUbyBtZSwgaXQgZmVlbHMgdGhhdCBYTVBQIGlzIGJlaW5nIGNhbGxlZCBhIGZhaWx1cmUg YnkgdGhlIGVudGl0aWVzIHRoYXQgd2FudA0KICAgIHRvIHNlbGwgdXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2Uu DQoNCkkgYW0gbm90IHRyeWluZyB0byBzZWxsIHNvbWV0aGluZyBlbHNlLCBidXQgSSBiZWxpZXZl IFhNUFAgaXMgbm90IHRoZSB3YXkgbW9zdCBvZiB0aGUgd29ybGQgZG9lcyBJTSwgYW5kIHdlIHNo b3VsZCBub3QgYmUgYWRkaW5nIGEgYmFycmllciB0byBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Oct 6 09:11:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35DC3A1490 for ; 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Tue, 6 Oct 2020 18:11:38 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <59437D57-4E38-46C7-981F-85983F690574@akamai.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 18:11:38 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623693498.4037991-e2de8d80a1216331600ccb6a3c329f37 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> <25969.1602000325@localhost> <59437D57-4E38-46C7-981F-85983F690574@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:11:44 -0000 On 2020-10-06, at 18:08, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 > I am not trying to sell something else, but I believe XMPP is not the = way most of the world does IM, and we should not be adding a barrier to = participation. Neither is IRC, but the W3C support for IRC has been pretty successful = in flattening the threshold; we emulate that (maybe without switching to = IRC :-). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Oct 6 09:12:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC2A3A148C for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:12:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEwh6QRnWCVq for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6072D3A0DCB for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id g3so13464512qtq.10 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2020 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Maa99+UagP/cpeoUT/qkRTF06cZTcB8UoXA0K1pH0sw=; b=PhN4gBr0hAILafOUt/RcDOJ04hdvPasZt9m2NlFdSMlIUgJGxxww/CxSdrXjrtXAMn Yp+z0Ei616DZJIP8gEcbp4dTCKytGjmDxjFOP1tWLw5/TvHBQRQDq3eOkkF+1e4rVzN6 l9CRe/ZXW6tP9HjAPEqaVvpdXXYMPMZsIafttJVFifmdvGijYrCbB/3pldHIehE5i00P nnXI1S9l7ty2ftzC9sdDQrfrFgCvMjB18xRpnOVYm1EwRZ19FSfVq/LfuAbu/zlC7K56 UcN0MRCUtOm/Ow0xHKN6t7gOBfw6Ev5duufmpOMbDw1hXHCZiMbKBljlYaUmMT9ahXL7 EwJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Maa99+UagP/cpeoUT/qkRTF06cZTcB8UoXA0K1pH0sw=; b=hzEKIU8kSWAMVys07NZV6UItREdQXMy3PZvw4Hz0ro11rC5ap9CSDoNc132MLaJdWH mHQBy9oM8xJvCjxOH/+wcnfse8S7VkKITzudDOpBRQuJS2cgdFw60KB4JMMl6kAN4RTu dzxTNyDTZQQhWF55FOjyr07LpnDDGTjUaRgs4+b/IyMy9mbc08q4NQchKHFAF8cPyY7w 7b+hYMLyX9cYSSek7xIFkOc6Ib+QLrektpbe72AyxelGqcgcR23sUSHmQRU+CZ9TaD0d YOUgyk/T/3JMm5HjLz4uvvfPHGQy1whCxrTPYN/ottZIreY8kM/83riHRQ2BLfu+W6JC 73Tw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Z02grBe7ryH2g7UWsAdX6cFJxegV1MCwusN3wsDJwzXegU3ak RJLlHaBQqpiFIuLNeqCaIIXbqA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz1aspQXYFi0YXJT91WgPD7S9PJAGFYE9qX2/2lkPuvOu/4ja1xRkh25fz7zY9Sjq21sIFwDw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:44da:: with SMTP id b26mr5715567qto.147.1602000752168; Tue, 06 Oct 2020 09:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mithrandir.lan (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m3sm2829000qkh.10.2020.10.06.09.12.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Oct 2020 09:12:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <47D19FE4-0F0F-4325-A9FF-FD3E43DAA814@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_66324CE9-D060-47CC-ADCE-AF9E181336CB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.0.3.2.61\)) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:12:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: <25969.1602000325@localhost> Cc: Dave Cridland , Tom Pusateri , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" To: Michael Richardson References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> <25969.1602000325@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3.2.61) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:12:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_66324CE9-D060-47CC-ADCE-AF9E181336CB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Oct 6, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > To me, it feels that XMPP is being called a failure by the entities = that want > to sell us something else. > For me, it's been a great success. There=E2=80=99s no conspiracy here. XMPP has had a really high barrier = to entry for use in the IETF for a long time. I=E2=80=99ve been asking = for the IETF to run an xmpp server for a long time, and the answer has = always been =E2=80=9Cno.=E2=80=9D We=E2=80=99ve always been pointed to = XMPP servers that have no SLA, and are operated for free on a =E2=80=9Cgoo= d luck, don=E2=80=99t bug me=E2=80=9D basis. This basically means that = anyone who doesn=E2=80=99t have a couple of hours to spend getting XMPP = working is going to have trouble. On top of that, even with a dependable server, which we don=E2=80=99t = currently have, the clients have been languishing for years and are not = being maintained. If I want to get a reliable xmpp client going on my = Mac, I=E2=80=99m going to have to download and compile code, and I = don=E2=80=99t actually know which code is the best bet, so chances are = I=E2=80=99m going to have to download and compile multiple bits of code = before I find one that works. This is a really heavy lift for something I=E2=80=99m going to use for = maybe ten hours per IETF, three IETFs per year. If we think XMPP is really the best thing, we should spend money on it = and make it actually work well, rather than just telling people to use = it, and good luck. I tend to agree that we want something that=E2=80=99s an open standard; = Matrix seems to be a good choice in that regard, but I admit I haven=E2=80= =99t kicked the tires sufficiently. --Apple-Mail=_66324CE9-D060-47CC-ADCE-AF9E181336CB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Oct 6, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> = wrote:
To me, it feels that XMPP is being called a failure by the = entities that want
to sell us something else.
For me, it's been a great success.

There=E2=80=99s no conspiracy here. XMPP has had a really = high barrier to entry for use in the IETF for a long time. I=E2=80=99ve = been asking for the IETF to run an xmpp server for a long time, and the = answer has always been =E2=80=9Cno.=E2=80=9D We=E2=80=99ve always been = pointed to XMPP servers that have no SLA, and are operated for free on a = =E2=80=9Cgood luck, don=E2=80=99t bug me=E2=80=9D basis. This basically = means that anyone who doesn=E2=80=99t have a couple of hours to spend = getting XMPP working is going to have trouble.

On top of that, even with a dependable = server, which we don=E2=80=99t currently have, the clients have been = languishing for years and are not being maintained. If I want to get a = reliable xmpp client going on my Mac, I=E2=80=99m going to have to = download and compile code, and I don=E2=80=99t actually know which code = is the best bet, so chances are I=E2=80=99m going to have to download = and compile multiple bits of code before I find one that = works.

This is = a really heavy lift for something I=E2=80=99m going to use for maybe ten = hours per IETF, three IETFs per year.

If we think XMPP is really the best = thing, we should spend money on it and make it actually work well, = rather than just telling people to use it, and good luck.

I tend to agree that we = want something that=E2=80=99s an open standard; Matrix seems to be a good choice in that regard, but I = admit I haven=E2=80=99t kicked the tires sufficiently.

= --Apple-Mail=_66324CE9-D060-47CC-ADCE-AF9E181336CB-- From nobody Tue Oct 6 09:18:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACE73A152E for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BdFMjQKNtO3v for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DFB83A14A6 for ; 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Tue, 6 Oct 2020 14:50:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1602013803; bh=nglrshWuXGzNSfuYftIa/VCcxHvVsUTB/MjX7WSOxvo=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=oiNe6akwSXypaqojxY9TJzGGFk1phFZPQGQ/APVuT0/EkSCjug4ytGsU5c4IQ9ZgT YZRdeEy/S/YP4zCb/V4mlYGicgwh0jZ6rZDFbVGLhNiomZ6OdfMA3sAUO8vl3bGKqJ uyaHdt+ICqrz9tyNrJBsj+FcFT6lxld+tv2hSL3Q= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: Tom Pusateri , Carsten Bormann Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 14:49:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 19:50:09 -0000 On 10/5/20 11:39 AM, Tom Pusateri wrote: >> On Oct 5, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-10-05, at 17:57, Tom Pusateri wrote: >>> I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main obstacle= =2E We need a way to map live streams to sessions in the API to restore w= idespread access to the streams. >> Apologies for a stupid question: Why do we need to have a limited num= ber of sessions? Can=E2=80=99t we make each WG its own session? >> >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > In the past (with physical meetings), the hardware to stream was set up= in a meeting room and tied to that location throughout the week. There w= ere typically 8 streams that didn=E2=80=99t change except for when rooms = were reconfigured throughout the week to make bigger/smaller spaces. > > Once the stream number was tied to a room location, I was able to deter= mine which sessions would be held in the room and know which stream to jo= in for each session. > > So the limited number of streams is based on physical audio hardware. This is the crux. If we do continue to support these streams (or=20 something different, but meeting the purpose they were intended to=20 serve), the software changes would be exactly in modelling what the=20 streams are connected to. Most likely it would turn into a separate=20 named stream per Session. If foobar met three times during the meeting,=20 that would be three separate streams. We would remove the assumption=20 that the streams are tied to a specific room, which will involve changes = at the datatracker, in Meetecho, and in Tom's iphone app. As I noted in the announcement, these changes aren't prohibitively=20 expensive, but they aren't trivial either, and if there wasn't an actual = _need_ for the streams, we would be better spending our time elsewhere. Tom (and others) have made some arguments about why the usage statistics = we have may not represent the actual desire to use the live streams. > > Tom > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Tue Oct 6 21:20:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B967B3A1040 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 21:19:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JtvuTJTBa5ee for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 21:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 692423A0FCE for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 21:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C5h2238G5zyR3; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 06:19:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623737193.752697-1438d429ea74edfd46c9a219f27186ce Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 06:19:53 +0200 Message-Id: To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 04:19:59 -0000 [I was really trying to send this to rfc-interest, but that doesn=E2=80=99= t seem to take.] I=E2=80=99m trying to use the contact element: works, but that is actually a bad transliteration. What it really should say: But that transliteration is not entirely ASCII, so I get this error: foo.xml(76): Error: Found non-ascii content in attribute value = asciiFullname=3D"Toyota Jid=C5=8Dsha KK" Why do we allow Latin names in contact names, but if we have a non-Latin = name, then the transcription suddenly needs to be ASCII, not just Latin? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Oct 6 23:51:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFA43A1665 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 23:51:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nW4M6OjQGTFt for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 23:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BC8A3A11DE for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 23:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.184] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD7821DC9F; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:51:28 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1602053488; bh=+OaIWIWwuWBOqYw+4KRw6CH/tJI+hroufQAJRILm09o=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=s7/WZWuRR8SiOnyr96wsctdNoPae3q2aQWl430FRbY5hB9oYMXBLKtMW9dXmH6sQg uqEQ+IJLu04aCUartOhoQntFwy+7wF3ZmEIYqaDPc5RnyFxT57VsS3T2ti5rOtUdOn pQ1whT+1O28rIxEas9wucin6cDD/HoDCWHUT+hhzMfTX5QryjywbqFx375LFIzm4C1 vPEd9sE9/OgyUfEtxAN90rCjnayayr/hqJcLZcHQBxUQk5HY6XSgpKYD42WKk81ZZa XtrDqg8DdGkZYMdP2oi4v81ZlqvJFS9wwB/G/TzgcwccoL6KNM2z3hcY+2wecqXa+7 D6g7bLiuwUlEw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:51:27 -0400 Message-Id: <52B934D6-9ABC-4224-BF85-1D323B1AA6A7@bangj.com> References: Cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18A393) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 06:51:33 -0000 > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:20 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:. >=20 > What it really should say: >=20 > >=20 > But that transliteration is not entirely ASCII, so I get this error: >=20 > foo.xml(76): Error: Found non-ascii content in attribute value a= sciiFullname=3D"Toyota Jid=C5=8Dsha KK" >=20 > Why do we allow Latin names in contact names, but if we have a non-Latin n= ame, then the transcription suddenly needs to be ASCII, not just Latin? >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten Another related question: How many times do we have to endure restrictions on UTF-8 characters in a UT= F-8 document. Can we please just allow UTF-8 characters anywhere in a docume= nt? It=E2=80=99s not like we don=E2=80=99t have multiple levels of an editor pro= cess to resolve any issues with incorrect use. Tom From nobody Wed Oct 7 00:54:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2AA3A1694 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 00:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpDA1pLJTgoW for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 00:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44EF73A1252 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 00:54:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1602057255; bh=1P0/+Ml65oH0FZ8VYySn6Fvp852A2B5PrHfD0ZVeHRE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=BvxEGm7Dn7g88qdv4jXRQwK0umW3aNxcpu6n7X+CQR9pwwOpOAS8OR955z9OI+w7X 3yQMJ9bqwfmK7fZ479JCveWfsgT1Ld37J41g2zIOsqQgLVyhVz0SePDZKvgnkqLNK9 Oy8HceCgV9keoHijeWIVkPRyCkMty1yMqVcQIPxQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.148.206]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1ML9uK-1k8x8924Li-00ICoy for ; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:54:15 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <52B934D6-9ABC-4224-BF85-1D323B1AA6A7@bangj.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <9b829546-e5cc-3f3d-73df-1de9781e8e39@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:54:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52B934D6-9ABC-4224-BF85-1D323B1AA6A7@bangj.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TShWOqBcrjwV6oGeV8lVlh2hSX1lLw6F3u1/IvmZqO6iUnVg3b3 MLZhcnYzNbdmRh9ZlySrkPokrYZEmol0miIAtzBcqSXst1QVlpeWWSHqJ+8Y6gq9EUVFb2s SwTZTjuvBy75bkzqI0W3RGp85whVFqpQsHDFarDz9dcVIYfb8wY6cotjVoYoymXKCRbEZrW 5Q4BTphmfFUxoPM2J4ecA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:FRozfBtLuGY=:FmvLURY+xsv1mNOwQ/yXH7 OBGbuzDhd8Jo0Lvyw9vAaPZm9NIY4BNAOP+ADTPFxrhHJ949mNf2bPIOrYUXOYJTLadMjJCm3 0QPBb5pukhGgjFjMuT3MXAM1bDTZHqudSkNlU0Qpu1QcoPQiXYmHjok/lNYd1D+6uabrz+oWy f7oQWw3uLonImPGVDhegUwe5LumuFLJSnMs4DD//ebK0QTwGGwkSNpQgmsQRxdlZ6ywhhLKO3 ApBl/ywaiyXrfqDKgYJpJkahEEeHZuZDaoe2oNWWfiNdpTWXqvT+dVvomE4FT3zk8QXpnjGVh pitkNJvtgmMBZ+xVMMR5B1hIwQ3DYsY3WnZ0LmhSpU4X6XtMde/n2IEeGbURcgvbKiWU/g5EB tAJlm1TWeSeXLoFJF1drMmDbfpf0e2kVQqzi13v4mK5pCHgPw419GKE9eVXYExlt3+psc16tt Mg4ep5wXVBnkTXPG8E9So9B8QGzwnR4Vs80NYzAbFcxnyljfor923ytnm4VYFy6DxRwPmlGCM 6SmBvV4PpoOfgjqj3YeyXL3orWjj5Jpo6VjjiwFksXqQJ3c16M8bQ4KVZt4eUhqboCjinrFID 1b1IVhob5bEMdRXI50yh13mw1Ndw4ZITsIM0LLfO1npV5g6YM/ddTGv27nkihB2OxU3VI/7Uc Hi5EvbaFSfIF48OFHi22E9fwvaHS9Nw/cYEz2545csg/8FVCNx4mbduH+0LrE4F93/dUdFwAs 1u8fAqWBnXWTTNcYfewQ4bid2lQ76GcX0+V/xFExAFSwzmv2oEr096f26ofSC3UE+GgbGR0qY LZt/E7NP54470I547lxMdcYV4ch+wetUbuwG3PonDsXwr+1DerVrZjucvHNQow5V0BTFy7kci ur/eXI9n5N1WeDANJzowHLaHR4d4La/9AheYCdCc0n8xnGUQ26jvCZG9Gva+CQgcvBpxMfnFg ir6z41HMxcCiVcih5z9/QSqzVOTnJux8AdXorRIXIzi8ldS+gRLfAszZ9uwgnfTq6YLLj9vQy vENrg8b0OALOTZgF1uATbLNj/M2SA4s0n0QYy3Mnt+QP+T/7dFDWXA6szUYeU0llC8T8PL//i cjiUzLRGYZw4TidyZYeBcziZEmmy0B6V9auK5L9ebZAveM4yZQrtJ4MBiGeCXYm65FljK/4th RDNabQzTlZtKefGV7lpjDJzPy9tnIoFBdFYvAK/1b7cOaAbQfDUNfGsKKcmKnY1ZjZsOM3+sA rEZdB57TEYotYJX+Gt/afOgOveY+wMkz9fgtDvg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 07:54:22 -0000 Am 07.10.2020 um 08:51 schrieb Tom Pusateri: > ... > Another related question: > > How many times do we have to endure restrictions on UTF-8 characters in = a UTF-8 document. Can we please just allow UTF-8 characters anywhere in a = document? > > It=E2=80=99s not like we don=E2=80=99t have multiple levels of an editor= process to resolve any issues with incorrect use. > ... Indeed. We shouldn't need a phrase-level "contact" element in the fist place. Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Oct 7 02:17:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347AB3A16EC for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:17:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=QEu/WFv7; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=hOzeWwCr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mkk-pm52yfJU for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80D713A16EB for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F785C0110 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 07 Oct 2020 05:17:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=/jt3d CVTWUOIbfLISmAWWAmRoAwTqGGqFBztqpaFDKs=; b=QEu/WFv74+SBy5EVShMne upo3eJbAiE7QlpQsjt9MUirNB3agCeWZTEf57Wq9B/qLIKB9elKWhIc4RMkfB/Ho +jJOde6QZJNQ9TV+zecNJoN4/yu1Bznbv1dPdeI2CULG6OpwcEtkFRG0BIleNBHX ywnXSKPHvV8IFg1qSGnpdvAe+Ew4qIg/RyA1xuTRcMzRTiaMuvUajCkGbhoMsKvi z+dSjgNo4fFTCNqq7kdz/0MFe7dqC3GWWf1d06VtsphqktcclM9LGQ2LyjSNxE0p JhlAN9b98NATTGNwQ5GgSRTgWpKAKrgE7UFRjkT1oPdYnDdl1XN0JxNDpQPR8O49 w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=/jt3dCVTWUOIbfLISmAWWAmRoAwTqGGqFBztqpaFD Ks=; b=hOzeWwCrMORBIMALbPTpnAbsLkUVb32828HPXa291GWzCpwEih/vZhnVt B72iuGZpjzHNTfgzNmg/qk00mGterJfar24adub1YDo9J7fw4nHzmRh8HyzGjEZL tyCo4CZNbSnQT/wtqgMnzK1dnUd/Gcgj3StqpQ8ZLX5caxS2Zbmxq7/Yp33Xp7Xt ie6WlQmbwkJXeLs+xFEXKA4DA0i60OENrhErVEToLw/bOVSwPZ/usxvV5YkBObrW yW6WF07HFnPh9aF9EF0FfRwkSDlPaTT/L2QtwHUvmgkhitHjcFSnUKqg7Xnq0dOp 4vXIZH3ZRvI6Df1D+JOeY+OrAAviA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrgeeigddugecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqh ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefftefgvedvhfdtffehje dufefhhfevhedufefhgfelleetieefgeefgffgleehgfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3DD1F20066; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:17:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-407-g461656c-fm-20201004.001-g461656c6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9b829546-e5cc-3f3d-73df-1de9781e8e39@gmx.de> References: <52B934D6-9ABC-4224-BF85-1D323B1AA6A7@bangj.com> <9b829546-e5cc-3f3d-73df-1de9781e8e39@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 20:17:23 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:17:44 -0000 I also agree with these fine folks. There are reasons to show restraint. And I thought that was what motiva= ted very narrow rules. For instance, we might not want quotes being any= thing other than '" because allowing variance leads to inconsistency. S= ame for hyphen vs. en-dash and em-dash. But the way to deal with that i= s to build tools that fix the issue one way or other. xml2rfc is alread= y aware of these problems and has some ability to manage that particular= problem. For instance, kramdown applies smart quotes from ", and then = xml2rfc undoes that. For the rest, a tool that highlights characters from outside a narrowly = defined range (printable and whitespace ASCII for instance) would do won= ders for ensuring that odd stuff doesn't creep in, like a BOM or a bunch= of ZWNJ. Beyond that, allowing people to have their names without havi= ng to resort to nasty hacks would be awesome. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, at 18:54, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 07.10.2020 um 08:51 schrieb Tom Pusateri: > > ... > > Another related question: > > > > How many times do we have to endure restrictions on UTF-8 characters= in a UTF-8 document. Can we please just allow UTF-8 characters anywhere= in a document? > > > > It=E2=80=99s not like we don=E2=80=99t have multiple levels of an ed= itor process to resolve any issues with incorrect use. > > ... >=20 > Indeed. >=20 > We shouldn't need a phrase-level "contact" element in the fist place. >=20 > Best regards, Julian >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Wed Oct 7 02:20:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68DD3A16EB; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:20:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZD-fLeHg2QZY; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6B573A0E13; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 02:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 0979K4WI009117; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:20:04 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 51CE42041BD; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D18520413D; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 0979K4xH031330; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:20:04 +0200 To: Robert Sparks , Tom Pusateri , Carsten Bormann Cc: Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:20:03 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:20:09 -0000 Le 06/10/2020 à 21:49, Robert Sparks a écrit : > > On 10/5/20 11:39 AM, Tom Pusateri wrote: >>> On Oct 5, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Carsten Bormann >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 2020-10-05, at 17:57, Tom Pusateri >>> wrote: >>>> I would support using Opus over MP3 but that is not the main >>>> obstacle. We need a way to map live streams to sessions in the >>>> API to restore widespread access to the streams. >>> Apologies for a stupid question: Why do we need to have a >>> limited number of sessions? Can’t we make each WG its own >>> session? >>> >>> Grüße, Carsten >> In the past (with physical meetings), the hardware to stream was >> set up in a meeting room and tied to that location throughout the >> week. There were typically 8 streams that didn’t change except for >> when rooms were reconfigured throughout the week to make >> bigger/smaller spaces. >> >> Once the stream number was tied to a room location, I was able to >> determine which sessions would be held in the room and know which >> stream to join for each session. >> >> So the limited number of streams is based on physical audio >> hardware. > > This is the crux. If we do continue to support these streams (or > something different, but meeting the purpose they were intended to > serve), the software changes would be exactly in modelling what the > streams are connected to. Most likely it would turn into a separate > named stream per Session. If foobar met three times during the > meeting, that would be three separate streams. We would remove the > assumption that the streams are tied to a specific room, which will > involve changes at the datatracker, in Meetecho, and in Tom's iphone > app. > > As I noted in the announcement, these changes aren't prohibitively > expensive, but they aren't trivial either, and if there wasn't an > actual _need_ for the streams, we would be better spending our time > elsewhere. > > Tom (and others) have made some arguments about why the usage > statistics we have may not represent the actual desire to use the > live streams. I am not disagreeing. I think any change needs work and the work quantity needs to be evaluated. I would also think about the following: if the one stream per room is a hardware problem, is that problem related to the use of old mixing stations? I remember having seen at room back in f2f ietf meetings some mixing stations with these numerous linear potentiometers. These are outdated tools. Nowadays people use PCs with large screens and virtual potentiometers. These dont have limitations in terms of numbers of channels. There is programmatical freedom in the way channels are defined, used and sent around. If a limitation is in hardware, there is advantage to be gained from migrating to software functionality. (I might be trying to persuade the already convinced here, but I wanted to say that, because it is strange to hear about hardware limitations in audio, with 110V/220V nearby and all space and coffee). Alex > > >> >> Tom ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb or send email to >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or send email to >> webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Wed Oct 7 05:57:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD8C3A09E8 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x7LLXBf3nU43 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 296C33A08AE for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C5vWM6g00zyXv; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:57:35 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9b829546-e5cc-3f3d-73df-1de9781e8e39@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:57:35 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623768255.304057-63a741060468a95c2db3a21b0c3d0e15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5FD25927-B746-4637-9191-EF607E9B3D36@tzi.org> References: <52B934D6-9ABC-4224-BF85-1D323B1AA6A7@bangj.com> <9b829546-e5cc-3f3d-73df-1de9781e8e39@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:57:46 -0000 On 2020-10-07, at 09:54, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > We shouldn't need a phrase-level "contact" element in the fist place. While this is true from a final form readable document generation point = of view, marking people semantically does have some value. Right now that only happens if somebody has a beyond-ASCII name; that = outcome indeed does not make a lot of sense. My proposal was trying to stay inside the current system and just fix = the bug that transliterations cannot reasonably be limited to ASCII; I = would like to get this fix done independently from any larger repertoire = fixes to RFCXMLv3. There is, of course, no need to actually change the attribute name; = simply allowing Latin values for the attribute solves the problem. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Oct 7 06:10:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73233A097B for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 06:10:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tzbgUCmBugO9 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 06:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9282F3A08B9 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 06:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:57933 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kQ9D4-0004o9-Qw; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 06:10:23 -0700 To: Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion References: From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:10:15 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2uGbI3uMvw6q3N9J3kDedKDQkVxb7Nekh" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 13:10:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2uGbI3uMvw6q3N9J3kDedKDQkVxb7Nekh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AXi53D928LdUkBlV1qVWAxf6hd8xd1n5D"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname References: In-Reply-To: --AXi53D928LdUkBlV1qVWAxf6hd8xd1n5D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, On 2020-10-07 06:19, Carsten Bormann wrote: > [I was really trying to send this to rfc-interest, but that doesn=E2=80= =99t seem to take.] >=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m trying to use the contact element: >=20 > >=20 > works, but that is actually a bad transliteration. >=20 > What it really should say: >=20 > >=20 > But that transliteration is not entirely ASCII, so I get this error: >=20 > foo.xml(76): Error: Found non-ascii content in attribute > value asciiFullname=3D"Toyota Jid=C5=8Dsha KK" >=20 > Why do we allow Latin names in contact names, but if we have a > non-Latin name, then the transcription suddenly needs to be ASCII, > not just Latin? The original specification was strict ASCII. After feedback on the list about common practice for publishing houses we moved to permitting Latin script in some places. Not allowing Latin script in your case above is a remnant of the original implementation; I see no reason not to move in the direction of permitting Latin script here, too. Best regards, Henrik --AXi53D928LdUkBlV1qVWAxf6hd8xd1n5D-- --2uGbI3uMvw6q3N9J3kDedKDQkVxb7Nekh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl99vjcACgkQTptXS4+7 FxrtrBAAmdSEgN11TSY8umRx/LuhCXOoXlFGkRxEK9jb/J2C1Qq8kehC9d/ZRPte hQvwYMSGh4O9b7xJkgCDtiwkjxLt0fO/wl9JcWJTG9etZk37S7o9MpLsOvpJDUXs vgrXyV8n3i05cMC/h4E4tPxnxv4PvH1A7Jnexjwt+5avLGRUiAJzn6f6JMXhQ9l7 d9RGp/kZbKbcJ5dnTzvOvwy1xe/0vaUoP6cR991jQ6WwDXCKc+hrcKY5Yne67Yqs lk+zUvOkxjvkthPk+SiPXM7qjMfp15ChxbhGeceh79sOxwJ7dolwgbDQsP+at4+o 9mB0GjpZz6lJ7flqFcaQlQm08hBdAGxZx6fB2MTvpK3+D2FtBwCxhMzO3E6xFhY7 MWfWYafYyAW02rlE51RuXJGCsI0XLnu6etnYZ94nhUS0Xk1AOEDL5Zi0OByCTl3A B1yus9ZqNWdxWNab8ApzaUwDwD6YXs0J8OkJvigHy2C/CNhN9WIqDnrnvIlThR9V WOhKxk5g+r3U4j50bjID17KOtLOyg5uVgjB8iTjNsqQNv+hi3O3xO242pIgIdSks uzTKKgseBa00jB0noLZW+qebV9ecdyIzRFrXy3OYUsQNu/Si5NnFYh1DpyzMRYfb kWJvbjC9mac2l8Sl8EY3JBU/hlfUxfn0VeqB/LdBaSDH9oPG5Vo= =0r/R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2uGbI3uMvw6q3N9J3kDedKDQkVxb7Nekh-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 07:20:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4771C3A0A63 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:20:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFOTudEG4PJe for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5593A0A4E for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:20:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1602080432; bh=+J9RJoSn2evGKcXsNZB7I1uRl66XVEiruiPjVkyLP1g=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=h1vEtyRgQsQ2vI/R+RFsYBGX5lgmR4rVMal3/NjMZcAVlloNr8Fd0IKqrV9Chw9Wz sPo6F1GkrOD9G2Gmp45It7+srHGDJ2KTKGz/oC7oWuXKbecccTymaKh0eXF6eOKTI2 WrPSobYdSW4sPfXqTM2Vwk++3gVwwaN6ZiltkROs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.182] ([84.171.148.206]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MFKGP-1kAXEn1ukz-00Fj0C for ; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:20:32 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 16:20:31 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SQ5KvgCYOXhHdW6cHAE6KxDuDPN1qcXniF3sAT2ZNJBC6aXd9PR qR5cRdOLrkaXU9jGYBV/ISDFszCQdSHd7ST4txjj3V4d9n2bkclcaTpFO3LCB/km46LyA3/ BlTG7Ia+yp9jW5jOR1olI6KmDzW4iCEx4xscP+XWqovZyjaGO0ExWoKSdXGmcZ1MJadqEGh VZm7qFeklgD8/B6PTYpKw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:hu/QbQTmeD8=:F/FM869ywljpdoRgDzAfhD I7Qo5ASrE9W/p8KL0dW4WYefvypyUKxCmm3StiOxbhq81LxTFzeVQQVSnIGE1Ewo/T6EIMaJt h5IBCKyKIZdy2xD/tg+M5HR2HYjQl2CotVuPu/VoRPSstehm6eU2NyCJtAWGYl2DVOHGp62gH q2Jtb1yF00pZN2GCzQ9uN3D0wfMLH9wTwfAPVW/Aw1tsOLOFAZr5XqTG8bvcZ07UCemYPdv9l s4JrTCGGCfSzR7ZALe50cBrBqYskDhlQSPL/WMNg6hr/Lx1nBRn5PPSIxueAYxRqnrGNwydHH cYXovtJmgQlmY+gFj9jnvv90uE7ED4ID85MTV+9y2fvRjHwK3g7GGHH7QTODiXaUJEazwJJzN 25YPKJZ9wQMivAQL0jDuId5/z/NbR6V6Qo81gQwKKGUIBlhy1du4R7hTktgWwjQ75Rn1F9XY2 SImd/kOe+no8bZIWeyRGxnSeX7bGHjH3WczwuF1SL6Lmsg934JEwm4YZy2An1jwHv99GW2pfH aEFGPOVhIUdt0D4vCV4couCHT95QdB1BTBYmO/mfRyI+dwBTWWx/rOYchnrIRyFCDenkPnarO wDtutNr+khlhEUHlZ3o66xUqE6hbYvnuCVoDg0GOrCKznJKnEh85URyACEKsbFoi5euezqxzV mfhyDH5Td5aiBeOGzRwILFuCexW5VAsbYNomCuktaatEC/j2I1/XwWlLCX4wtbmiGjHKXJCHU tt5ja1CV8K8VThXQ20YdsqFEtYus7g4b3jf1Ezvew3VBaFJWZiqNJG3b5wCQtBsM5x/7x5Izd OKQFR6vdy9HovfvJmEcxDFKIf9nMKpF2R0e4YjhqM2SeRMuo/1AeZoErIPeXfCP09RJW6ACM6 pzLZhs+dnGeKOUlPXQ2DYiYtLnVP5MBGWN/4A7zYfoByYGzNsypjDfgvmmKEAYpb9V2G8qlLR Oa9qKPqtzNc+zKKYXc1iqS3PznSgy8AB0x8+fGzs1AwrkTucD+af1x53uE4rPxK2CoTd3uNsg M9zezas0ooBgHsECuQhAxWi1rgxOlskH2yU9DA9pfsji+SpHgIO0XKh0PUJomZ4z1r3L4kPnb DTHySJQRYJ97AbBF8ISKRlyHbrgp2Me0PeVdQRh1eMAW/IT0MyPMgKpRolGtAvSKpzgX4WyMv kmyQeZnF90AFOmPkZwPKgbsZ2j+DbaU6zuqnXZ510Hi3JzREsVrwuo5YNsFY/ckdLTNUX4TGK E7+MXm/UDjcjJUhm2Yo6YrylFrzXmOCnEVY4/RQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 14:20:37 -0000 Am 07.10.2020 um 15:10 schrieb Henrik Levkowetz: > ... > > The original specification was strict ASCII. (...) Pointer? Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Oct 7 07:32:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631653A0A84 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:32:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lQXjGih1VhKP for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ADDA3A0A53 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C5xcL1FSqzyXN; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 16:32:02 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 16:32:01 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623773921.623385-7d39407c2a1c8530053b29712b1b216f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 14:32:06 -0000 On 2020-10-07, at 16:20, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 >> The original specification was strict ASCII. (...) >=20 > Pointer? RFC 7991 Section 2.7.1-.3 (and a ton of =E2=80=9Cascii=E2=80=9D = attributes patched into other places) says =E2=80=9CASCII=E2=80=9D. Not = =E2=80=9Cstrict ASCII=E2=80=9D, but I don=E2=80=99t know the difference = between the two. RFC 7997 says ASCII or ASCII-only when it really is = talking about =E2=80=9Caccessible to a reader familiar with the Latin = writing system=E2=80=9D (except maybe for Section 3.4); that is exactly = the bug that I=E2=80=99m trying to address. Of course, the Relax-NG in RFC 7991 doesn=E2=80=99t enforce that textual = mandate, so no schema change is needed to fix this bug. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Oct 7 07:41:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4AB3A0A39 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:41:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jHxKDikDbAMW for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D0593A09BE for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:40:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1602081633; bh=Oxp1N0gOljAt5tnrGdou59bAXjn2SIDRItNpWcuGtgw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ePIgG9x0tJ7d5SOKDa+bIfwIER1E1W30p/Y/0ZNYjpQkZctvtkM32rad8MuzJeqTF nVQIJOSOuAElkcxw7AOXULNu5aev2fTtXaSw0EVzVxMXFbbTwFY0RA4VwkJmv2NDOn 1cpYhVG6YoINQXKUVw6WyTk/xWQm92CuBrfBTqww= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.182] ([84.171.148.206]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0oG5-1kbm5c18Rp-00wiBi; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:40:33 +0200 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <79065d16-ad99-3895-e614-48439999b811@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 16:40:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4k6ElkhrLRBdgCnSa+odOwDXCUaIBr+lgvsxV1zxp2Svl5D/JvF m1ASsKSCZWjmf3xxNBc6lSIWrE6MYqFdFUoqBZYklX+WnERFETswCR/IdE8rE8Q3mJqV7mC TksdY6UniHIEKQJEPkiJr9kOug2gJ31CfVqfmLe042LUY62SgA4DyNhWB2CjNGmYTo9ncRY NooMcG3CpCzcZybenxVFg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+JL0tevnUu0=:n+EpKhmKtGMl3nK7nct1gg A+WdmMjmlbjf0+5QNXuv5XL84IKMRt+BNxON4Lh9QYfQTkTfLZOsWFEpyclGt7XCro4I9nf21 SuSODIy0j+0gjVPljTUu7uWtnpQS+MV4N/x0wGmXxXQEM4N6GoN7fwGOuIYrzzUSzW7Wb8Z9f i+ygwt/M4JI0+D6jFTeUfNvsUzRl8Wl787SXEhRdrJtm0RrblnJhRZuvL/TaAhnOEVainc3zv 5tadTpj8ZYVsq3Wc+rPbW5sZlMaDHoLwHm1rjoHC1bVYQPN6cfBz0I+zymhNQV/b7wS76c2fp V7CXAOaUSAf/RYLKU56Sawcy7LN3SuwoDPA66EIkFrRz/RAC++Bj77Ks2EUCcjZ4Ne34Xc+AJ 2IuD0AX1ApDBdLB3M8RRxRi6sVYnzOFscumWHI5TaetqLxbpKdsd9p3FsN9P0KN5Jzj79Mli1 2c5Q5kLJTzxmf7NgJDiQ9O1ay/h5iJIrAmY+3UCDyfhRXSEkW/kzXMwkj+oJkFroX6wTLO8yZ JLiXt72PU2Dn5FWgfzLO1GH1YS+O0p+mS4QoYIOjBlMutL5rUNTTGFyh0j/f3l8aVn2IsCPIi oEzapLFu+nouTqO2orNGfOgokmQe/sm8xZjduHixAQ+dgKik78rzMKR3uqM72rMxyZAWCWx0C hUw2jtr1aSqAR9DmYBLFNx2gH1e/EoLD2Ct+yk8j7m+i2XfeP5twNj00mftHZyI09Y3qEH1Ca /z+UDDwgT+6H9rNnD4X/pcpdrv2JkDj405RJH4WlU98/Rvrk1UBTociy4cw9LmDby3xqhIvIk E/iG09nnsBX7wFLhxzU/vIDnnGjpYiS8L7LzMBqpd3wt0uf9q1D2hFsRaqlJ80hIuAxchUmX0 kVpCwW+M+9vciR92DOfMFM4khLRNA4fWq+tr/GH2SzFae4ri4pvZu+ybqkkQ14T5LDKQl5NWn e5+VwYdPUmBH1lf+SnnxRLZ/zI0jALVbCl0FrlQ8ApLE3CwFGW7uc4qz2QZZPyU1q+8xUAOxg RSM5uvkuQeEGPDdDd4dom/oDdkLPfzjA61pfytwLY8jmhdX6PY9gGP2q1wHDn4nE6CWrAiJ1d D3w8qbfRlgLgn+bMd0YOND1bMKz2+MCGkZB0w55OhD5ecu5L4kSmkllgD0D7RwyO5wp9aY4Ob zRjAh28PjLHFKxYmpgdA29anzs2p4JRA4XQV4VuveUEehicjL1Rjg2ujZpjh/b/aeMfi3bsMs LpgMRODtw6qmXfT05f34HFpGcUZz+Fu+RNjuu1w== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 14:41:09 -0000 Am 07.10.2020 um 16:32 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 2020-10-07, at 16:20, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >>> The original specification was strict ASCII. (...) >> >> Pointer? > > RFC 7991 Section 2.7.1-.3 (and a ton of =E2=80=9Cascii=E2=80=9D attribut= es patched into other places) says =E2=80=9CASCII=E2=80=9D. Not =E2=80=9C= strict ASCII=E2=80=9D, but I don=E2=80=99t know the difference between the= two. RFC 7997 says ASCII or ASCII-only when it really is talking about = =E2=80=9Caccessible to a reader familiar with the Latin writing system=E2= =80=9D (except maybe for Section 3.4); that is exactly the bug that I=E2= =80=99m trying to address. > > Of course, the Relax-NG in RFC 7991 doesn=E2=80=99t enforce that textual= mandate, so no schema change is needed to fix this bug. RFC 7991 Section 2.7 is about . What we are discussing here is using names in prose, that is not described in 7991. RFC 7997 ("The Use of Non-ASCII Characters in RFCs") says in Section 3.2 (): "Person names may appear in several places within an RFC (e.g., the header, Acknowledgements, and References). When a script outside the Unicode Latin blocks [UNICODE-CHART] is used for an individual name, an author-provided, ASCII-only identifier will appear immediately after the non-Latin characters, surrounded by parentheses. This will improve general readability of the text." So the v3 RFCs indeed says that an ASCII-only identifier should be present (I forgot about that). What RFC 7997 does *not* say is how the XML for that is supposed to look. That's right because that's 7991's job, and my recollection of the history of 7991 is that we did not feel any special markup was needed for that. Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Oct 7 08:01:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D09D3A09DF for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_oB2B60n0kz for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58F7B3A09DB for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:59215 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kQAww-0007bu-03; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 08:01:50 -0700 To: Carsten Bormann , Julian Reschke References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:01:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WJ9XF2dwsvWwE0iVwxARWDP7lK3uw3NRQ" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:01:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WJ9XF2dwsvWwE0iVwxARWDP7lK3uw3NRQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="o5pAp9FG90LMfkk9EGnmbND2gC8N13w58"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , Julian Reschke Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> --o5pAp9FG90LMfkk9EGnmbND2gC8N13w58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, On 2020-10-07 16:32, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-10-07, at 16:20, Julian Reschke wrote: >>=20 >>> The original specification was strict ASCII. (...) >>=20 >> Pointer? >=20 > RFC 7991 Section 2.7.1-.3 (and a ton of =E2=80=9Cascii=E2=80=9D attribu= tes patched > into other places) says =E2=80=9CASCII=E2=80=9D. Not =E2=80=9Cstrict AS= CII=E2=80=9D, but I don=E2=80=99t know > the difference between the two. RFC 7997 says ASCII or ASCII-only > when it really is talking about =E2=80=9Caccessible to a reader familia= r with > the Latin writing system=E2=80=9D (except maybe for Section 3.4); that = is > exactly the bug that I=E2=80=99m trying to address. Sorry for my linguistic mistake. I was trying to say 'ASCII' in the sense of strictly ASCII. As for what 7991 is really talking about, interpreting 'ASCII' as =E2=80=9Caccessible to a reader familiar with the Latin writing system=E2= =80=9D, rather than strictly ASCII, I'll leave that interpretation as yours. That's not= the understanding I got from 7991. I indicated earlier that I thought expanding the use use of Latin to the case you raised was reasonable, but it seems that response wasn't enough for you, so now I have no idea of how to respond. Henrik > Of course, the Relax-NG in RFC 7991 doesn=E2=80=99t enforce that textua= l > mandate, so no schema change is needed to fix this bug.>=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --o5pAp9FG90LMfkk9EGnmbND2gC8N13w58-- --WJ9XF2dwsvWwE0iVwxARWDP7lK3uw3NRQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl992FYACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqSng/+IVMhgboXqnL14tBN5HNGSb83DLHhSFpTowsjnHmdJ+RkV5s1PAxHYSuz S8INXlFJmqEuAw7IjgEdnvqcHsYToC555B9em2HBHHRGVqMhaaGCJdgL4XBVreLj UrFH0ICU1JVXTxHAcs9SGE9mpe34IDP4HEoDzdm6EVquHOfMZqqf9rcNancddaAP QQKb/ElmqRR6yP0tn8l2RLGwXTSyE4Ekmd8MzVJTUeiC3IWH0KomKZoZ9lxgKTsc x14ur6YUUOxJEvEtR1dF2cNGZ4r+mVqaxss21aDYeW7dpAhsoUUrgJtWVHOkF/ab aWPLTTiUX4SRP6Nv8eZ9BuG0IwQ03pbJM2uvdT65Oq0m9iTaLvek8VNHS3zWFkhj OnE/iVle6Gr6OO3ntkYjHMK6vr/3Bx2XInwf87L7BWqmsWAaRi9Wz3VDJaQZEEK0 T0NdGmDEEonq2+U7QmbqKu5JAR9qGCSIf2LVA0v5dS835THJxQcROGavZk3iUUzb ZooMCivELILNqs/sPcrp/xkNI3d/zZMGZjzQTF3SD1Cet/JQ+ePPkspwxv5+7uod HH9py7XGulFKCNSAEd0qdMoxQMDNYiZXcnjYv0Bns2Hi3qzoLb0Z9IsQLVjeSBa3 yNaxasHIE82qBYSarO0dHNj/FchUcGS46gc8Z+4IierErcRPKpY= =Q9Bv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WJ9XF2dwsvWwE0iVwxARWDP7lK3uw3NRQ-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 08:39:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997F23A0A8D for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Id-feCUzzmJL for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEFC53A0A8C for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C5z6Y0DPyz107l; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:39:49 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:39:48 +0200 Cc: Julian Reschke , Tools Team Discussion , RFC Interest X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623777988.473967-705bab77927e56483e5235e094b41543 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <649F6D05-2AC2-481A-B858-6E158DCF74F8@tzi.org> References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:39:55 -0000 Hi Henrik, I was trying to respond to Julian here. > On 2020-10-07, at 17:01, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: >=20 > As for what 7991 is really talking about, interpreting 'ASCII' as > =E2=80=9Caccessible to a reader familiar with the Latin writing = system=E2=80=9D, rather > than strictly ASCII, I'll leave that interpretation as yours. That's = not > the understanding I got from 7991. Me neither, in particular with the example in the companion 7997 that = gave an ASCII-only =E2=80=9Cidentifier=E2=80=9D (cleverly avoiding the = transliteration/transcription dilemma) for a Latin name. However, it = seems to me that it simply didn=E2=80=99t occur to the people involved = in the process that led to RFC 799x that transliterations tend to use = beyond-ASCII characters (or they considered pure-ASCIIness more = important). > I indicated earlier that I thought expanding the use use of Latin to > the case you raised was reasonable, but it seems that response wasn't > enough for you, so now I have no idea of how to respond. No, I totally agree with your response. I just tried to answer = Julian=E2=80=99s question. So we do need a bit of a variance here from RFC 7991. We could do that = the same way all the other variances have been handled (such as = introducing the element that didn't exist in RFC 7991 = either). Or we could somehow convince ourselves this is suddenly a = major change (e.g., because the attributes are called = =E2=80=9Cascii=E2=80=9Dsomething they really should stay ASCII-only). I = don=E2=80=99t think it is, but if I could post to the rfc-interest list, = I would love to hear whether people there agree, too. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Oct 7 08:52:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971B63A0EB4; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:52:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7orkZuqtO2r5; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E97C3A0EBD; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.196] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0500D1DD2F; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:52:23 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1602085944; bh=AR3am5fd4ZUji5LzJ+QrvkeDXDMuEAXkMVSHbbH4zO8=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:From; b=Q2rbu6eSE7AnDs70XE9wNGlhlXnkIh5oUDTNT6S3J6ur4Msn0g9FfOxWguaAgJCaU fCDFYR5kG41U18cu+S/OJJU92CkSlUzzAITDED5jv5F1/tZuy0Eo7mtiFMX7N9K7zp U18K4j3l/kj+zQxrjb4pYC+MFht+lnMGdo7THH0xu+Sjp4VQeaPng9w5eSEAkazN0M JIJPwek9u5W6cBOXw5ViBlnh/g+toOyC6/Npxyp8tUjllUzBfA4RTVkl1y32R3t1U8 FiAwyxnE1KRWnWPaqKd/2c0ab+k81kCIoStDZAwVv2VkL1i8LFUjUuEOxoepwIlLEL jAGZ/vnG/WOlw== From: Tom Pusateri Message-Id: <622776EA-0F69-4B28-9CD2-D099EBB8D1DD@bangj.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0D0DF491-08BC-43AA-B200-DCEB80FD8529" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:52:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Robert Sparks , Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:52:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0D0DF491-08BC-43AA-B200-DCEB80FD8529 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 7, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I would also think about the following: if the one stream per room is = a > hardware problem, is that problem related to the use of old mixing > stations? I remember having seen at room back in f2f ietf meetings = some > mixing stations with these numerous linear potentiometers. These are > outdated tools. >=20 > Nowadays people use PCs with large screens and virtual potentiometers. > These dont have limitations in terms of numbers of channels. There is > programmatical freedom in the way channels are defined, used and sent > around. >=20 > If a limitation is in hardware, there is advantage to be gained from > migrating to software functionality. >=20 > (I might be trying to persuade the already convinced here, but I = wanted > to say that, because it is strange to hear about hardware limitations = in > audio, with 110V/220V nearby and all space and coffee). >=20 > Alex The physical audio hardware is more of a limitation of the space. You = have rooms with separate sound systems with microphones and speakers for = a physical audience. Each stream needs to be tied into the existing room = sound system. You could use a computer in each room to pipe that sound over the = network to a central stream server but now we=E2=80=99re just talking = about where it=E2=80=99s being served from. My previous description was = meant to describe that computer in that room connected to that sound = system. Tom= --Apple-Mail=_0D0DF491-08BC-43AA-B200-DCEB80FD8529 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Oct 7, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:


I would also think about the following: if the one stream per = room is a
hardware = problem, is that problem related to the use of old mixing
stations? =  I remember having seen at room back in f2f ietf meetings = some
mixing = stations with these numerous linear potentiometers.  These = are
outdated = tools.

Nowadays = people use PCs with large screens and virtual potentiometers.
These dont = have limitations in terms of numbers of channels.  There = is
programmatical = freedom in the way channels are defined, used and sent
around.

If a limitation is in hardware, there is advantage to be = gained from
migrating to = software functionality.

(I might be trying to persuade the already convinced here, = but I wanted
to say that, = because it is strange to hear about hardware limitations in
audio, with = 110V/220V nearby and all space and coffee).

Alex

The physical audio hardware is more of a limitation of the = space. You have rooms with separate sound systems with microphones and = speakers for a physical audience. Each stream needs to be tied into the = existing room sound system.

You could use a computer in each room to pipe that sound = over the network to a central stream server but now we=E2=80=99re just = talking about where it=E2=80=99s being served from. My previous = description was meant to describe that computer in that room connected = to that sound system.

Tom
= --Apple-Mail=_0D0DF491-08BC-43AA-B200-DCEB80FD8529-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 08:58:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895FF3A0AA7; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:58:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f2KkD3SI_8-P; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45F1D3A0A9F; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 097FwNWW088107 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:58:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1602086304; bh=pEFKHvhe638ZgAo/aMPlt+xvc0qrkjDN8Wq0nrkAuiY=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=XPH/QMOhrNmqOrIp6P2Cf/+1i6TRPF8MjBa4r12/ZKMOCKeq51jw60OeobU1wBgm5 zImmcJeZ+wtIGozCfxhalCtn+NXbuFzc6s42IXBy9TX6Qr5jna1bgGe4KcoaHIPl2e JQHyhNdkvWR1wQMPMh/IzNOs62Dd/jimlh29fc0M= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: Tom Pusateri , Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> <622776EA-0F69-4B28-9CD2-D099EBB8D1DD@bangj.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <63a1fb8c-12eb-a8e7-7bd0-1676d7dbb394@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:58:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <622776EA-0F69-4B28-9CD2-D099EBB8D1DD@bangj.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------31515C620D15D1ACF5D6A6D2" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:58:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------31515C620D15D1ACF5D6A6D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/7/20 10:52 AM, Tom Pusateri wrote: > >> On Oct 7, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> > >> wrote: >> >> >> I would also think about the following: if the one stream per room is a >> hardware problem, is that problem related to the use of old mixing >> stations?  I remember having seen at room back in f2f ietf meetings some >> mixing stations with these numerous linear potentiometers.  These are >> outdated tools. >> >> Nowadays people use PCs with large screens and virtual potentiometers. >> These dont have limitations in terms of numbers of channels.  There is >> programmatical freedom in the way channels are defined, used and sent >> around. >> >> If a limitation is in hardware, there is advantage to be gained from >> migrating to software functionality. >> >> (I might be trying to persuade the already convinced here, but I wanted >> to say that, because it is strange to hear about hardware limitations in >> audio, with 110V/220V nearby and all space and coffee). >> >> Alex > > The physical audio hardware is more of a limitation of the space. You > have rooms with separate sound systems with microphones and speakers > for a physical audience. Each stream needs to be tied into the > existing room sound system. > > You could use a computer in each room to pipe that sound over the > network to a central stream server but now we’re just talking about > where it’s being served from. My previous description was meant to > describe that computer in that room connected to that sound system. I don't think we need to worry about it anymore other than understanding how it informed the model that we've used to date. When we have a physical system in the future that's room based, we'll plumb things back to sessions. > > Tom --------------31515C620D15D1ACF5D6A6D2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 10/7/20 10:52 AM, Tom Pusateri wrote:

On Oct 7, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:


I would also think about the following: if the one stream per room is a
hardware problem, is that problem related to the use of old mixing
stations?  I remember having seen at room back in f2f ietf meetings some
mixing stations with these numerous linear potentiometers.  These are
outdated tools.

Nowadays people use PCs with large screens and virtual potentiometers.
These dont have limitations in terms of numbers of channels.  There is
programmatical freedom in the way channels are defined, used and sent
around.

If a limitation is in hardware, there is advantage to be gained from
migrating to software functionality.

(I might be trying to persuade the already convinced here, but I wanted
to say that, because it is strange to hear about hardware limitations in
audio, with 110V/220V nearby and all space and coffee).

Alex

The physical audio hardware is more of a limitation of the space. You have rooms with separate sound systems with microphones and speakers for a physical audience. Each stream needs to be tied into the existing room sound system.

You could use a computer in each room to pipe that sound over the network to a central stream server but now we’re just talking about where it’s being served from. My previous description was meant to describe that computer in that room connected to that sound system.
I don't think we need to worry about it anymore other than understanding how it informed the model that we've used to date. When we have a physical system in the future that's room based, we'll plumb things back to sessions.

Tom
--------------31515C620D15D1ACF5D6A6D2-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 09:02:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515923A0AB7 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:02:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8FM0ebEP6-qq for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B909C3A0AB2 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:59787 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kQBtw-0001Ai-PA; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:02:49 -0700 To: Carsten Bormann References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> <649F6D05-2AC2-481A-B858-6E158DCF74F8@tzi.org> Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <8f76e517-6d6a-f4dd-fb9b-a61a1db18723@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 18:02:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <649F6D05-2AC2-481A-B858-6E158DCF74F8@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0fOlHTIaUvkaG0xkf4QEwDfpUfC8e7d8I" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:02:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0fOlHTIaUvkaG0xkf4QEwDfpUfC8e7d8I Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OcUCNNM7H984WMn1b6DCO7nQTaqt4nuBM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <8f76e517-6d6a-f4dd-fb9b-a61a1db18723@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> <649F6D05-2AC2-481A-B858-6E158DCF74F8@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <649F6D05-2AC2-481A-B858-6E158DCF74F8@tzi.org> --OcUCNNM7H984WMn1b6DCO7nQTaqt4nuBM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, On 2020-10-07 17:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Henrik, >=20 > I was trying to respond to Julian here. >=20 >> On 2020-10-07, at 17:01, Henrik Levkowetz wrote= : >>=20 >> As for what 7991 is really talking about, interpreting 'ASCII' as >> =E2=80=9Caccessible to a reader familiar with the Latin writing system= =E2=80=9D, rather >> than strictly ASCII, I'll leave that interpretation as yours. That's = not >> the understanding I got from 7991. >=20 > Me neither, in particular with the example in the companion 7997 that > gave an ASCII-only =E2=80=9Cidentifier=E2=80=9D (cleverly avoiding the > transliteration/transcription dilemma) for a Latin name. However, it > seems to me that it simply didn=E2=80=99t occur to the people involved = in the > process that led to RFC 799x that transliterations tend to use > beyond-ASCII characters (or they considered pure-ASCIIness more > important). >=20 >> I indicated earlier that I thought expanding the use use of Latin=20 >> to the case you raised was reasonable, but it seems that response >> wasn't enough for you, so now I have no idea of how to respond. >=20 > No, I totally agree with your response. I just tried to answer > Julian=E2=80=99s question. Ah, ok. Good then. > So we do need a bit of a variance here from RFC 7991. We could do > that the same way all the other variances have been handled (such as > introducing the element that didn't exist in RFC 7991 > either). I think the decision to permit Latin script for names applies here. I don't see this as a new decision, but a matter of applying an already settled question consistently. Best regards, Henrik > Or we could somehow convince ourselves this is suddenly a > major change (e.g., because the attributes are called > =E2=80=9Cascii=E2=80=9Dsomething they really should stay ASCII-only). I= don=E2=80=99t think > it is, but if I could post to the rfc-interest list, I would love to > hear whether people there agree, too. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --OcUCNNM7H984WMn1b6DCO7nQTaqt4nuBM-- --0fOlHTIaUvkaG0xkf4QEwDfpUfC8e7d8I Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl995qEACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqOyA//VEvtONfXOb8ePqZbCFuBRg1m4eAY/Dzvchr/btcqoyQ7H32fi2wUakEK iqF/rhPLHZsUCs5psgMM61u7VRN1OHWY5Vm0Zt+0d9Dd8KgCNhFxP/9PMxFlUmbA 4bE9nwbDgFgzH2As/a0b0wN2uDUz9xtCfgmTqLRPfmRVxBvYG/PU3/C1SaAlYwpc Lakv46rsQif9S7dyPNWpLlH2f4atK0bth4S4vLGsZl9hBZByZUD4B61sHR8JVpwf l9ZsTT5V+UEieiHa4IndaN2GWpq/x7KgQyHCNSRwczaKvuT7QVsp333y286oOFSX 3ViaMvrMVHMiUvZps/nYnPDGI3/z7sE1tJW3b6LXnMcU1AIvbGOn9igyWRGUOSsl ChFnqRx4TuYnAD21nmGjsDrb5ah5DVO05ppFVLKblXvjDlsjom/gNJM1lLGPYPTJ fwIZDUfCmgQLP40tVXZV/MyIzmBVgtjeKJ67ImlD/W5N4qTm4SADJKNzX7OVosC/ lxv8KGidEuzpnq+krNl5zbZGDI8GV5CAL0fMabjO1g1a1gcC3rnGAcK74YyWfgcc JVH7BopELnymifd9eoSHbn2rIv0bvnyKYDIFfw3EWjomqA7Qv/VV/WDzQCSUeNSo xcHehtM7x1SM/8VYJzu2rzosQtmnQ6e4xnOj7bX3tGLWz6Ij/c4= =0bL7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0fOlHTIaUvkaG0xkf4QEwDfpUfC8e7d8I-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 09:19:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A7B3A0AD0 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldFOAucka1z6 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4BF63A0A71 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C60071WjBzyRg; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 18:19:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <8f76e517-6d6a-f4dd-fb9b-a61a1db18723@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 18:19:18 +0200 Cc: RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 623780358.629366-7eb65600ea3abcbddb8f5bf1f98a85d9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6397AFB2-085A-42F0-A175-529D4A1054DB@tzi.org> References: <632bd17a-0989-6fa9-4147-e54c00a657f2@levkowetz.com> <85fa7fbd-ffc1-b8c6-ddaf-c48119b530b1@gmx.de> <99A6F972-B807-4464-B4BD-F9B8E50C311A@tzi.org> <649F6D05-2AC2-481A-B858-6E158DCF74F8@tzi.org> <8f76e517-6d6a-f4dd-fb9b-a61a1db18723@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] : asciiFullname should be latinFullname X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:19:23 -0000 On 2020-10-07, at 18:02, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >=20 > I think the decision to permit Latin script for names applies here. I > don't see this as a new decision, but a matter of applying an already > settled question consistently. +1 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Oct 7 11:03:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2003D3A102C for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GxwXHBiBwBY6 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72a.google.com (mail-qk1-x72a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D6713A101B for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72a.google.com with SMTP id v123so3898407qkd.9 for ; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OstHFIXa6FQslUeka4iwuKoPFfs/mbe6z2ZIvxPZj9k=; b=GPKvDfZRB0rD5H2MA+HCqs7Ziep+1vDtalt6Aif+/FPkNpeDsZWgTGxKqFB/mtLI+K 8MfzlZdlBTQ4xElIDlqezwH5kr5ynC8M8p3vjh8oYYUxF/Ok2lxJpoj9IqQuQuBlZkYc 0grrybl75dWXPs2zKutswuTyuBN1c0WQIGdieujr7/HE0mOMh5LeeeOUi+IdXd9u3nIZ r39wFC0IEdSlkHWPgIbRFMoTnFb56f3QpnlNI7lSEssYyqU1pl39KKXQL09kZzneutNv BW7x4vLEpoN9Zl/rsz/KVupJhDdseSoNhXg78b/xkjyMdRWuCZF/2N/fAMAlqw+2O/lI cKbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OstHFIXa6FQslUeka4iwuKoPFfs/mbe6z2ZIvxPZj9k=; b=CZLvh5+WG7ALJkhGt46Tv0RmDK5pn+Csy9C/iRlr8Orkfb73TghX7iYwIbU2P/+JX0 sn4Cupmssnj4CA1VRVDTBG6smleY/VSXWWW3/lN8E6ZEWBOzuWlBfohpsgxKfAwQsqvv rSp5CxG5SsW8asMAVtvN9/CqiVqXFGmfFztfRJZ30T/3Vd8Q2aEPOll3m6ZPdnmnz/jY lcVLjr0SjdV63paa2NgN2hvm3D0eXVqIuLhkFCcpDB4xV4dBrvwrDwCSjgEhBxTL8X2L UzlijgHiauxzKfeNKWOJgk+EDdsW8iG+fmO9UnN9K5Fh0apUPlWqITbMNVaObj68qAnI XlHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Tw3M3R1MyLJpWsJ+dAJ8UwoKxULkG63a46OFt5+LSG3dm92QF VjMGHGCoeac1dBIkRHIFX81uetCgX8NYc3OgHCgg2RIbfz5nqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycCgCilJ5hn5A5yOWa8spH7Tgx8EzZns/P1+bX6yxALALojpH4XtB+WFwWNX48PoLGOntXhytTtTXCOhMT1UE= X-Received: by 2002:a37:bf87:: with SMTP id p129mr4099017qkf.203.1602093788639; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> <25969.1602000325@localhost> <47D19FE4-0F0F-4325-A9FF-FD3E43DAA814@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <47D19FE4-0F0F-4325-A9FF-FD3E43DAA814@fugue.com> From: Matthew Wild Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:02:57 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Michael Richardson , Tom Pusateri , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b348405b1188732" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:03:11 -0000 --0000000000002b348405b1188732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ted, On Tue, 6 Oct 2020 at 17:12, Ted Lemon wrote: > On top of that, even with a dependable server, which we don=E2=80=99t cur= rently have, the clients have been languishing for years and are not being maintained. If I want to get a reliable xmpp client going on my Mac, I=E2= =80=99m going to have to download and compile code, and I don=E2=80=99t actually kn= ow which code is the best bet, so chances are I=E2=80=99m going to have to download = and compile multiple bits of code before I find one that works. > > This is a really heavy lift for something I=E2=80=99m going to use for ma= ybe ten hours per IETF, three IETFs per year. Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are referring to. Off the top of my head I can think of three or four Mac clients and I'm not aware that any of them require compiling code. I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained Beagle IM from the Mac app store and joined hallway@jabber.ietf.org within a couple of minutes= . Regards, Matthew --0000000000002b348405b1188732 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ted,

On Tue, 6 Oct 2020 at 17:12, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>= ; wrote:
> On top of that, even with a dependable server, which we don=E2=80=99t = currently have, the clients have been languishing for years and are not bei= ng maintained. If I want to get a reliable xmpp client going on my Mac, I= =E2=80=99m going to have to download and compile code, and I don=E2=80=99t = actually know which code is the best bet, so chances are I=E2=80=99m going = to have to download and compile multiple bits of code before I find one tha= t works.
>
> This is a really heavy lift for something I=E2=80=99m going to use for= maybe ten hours per IETF, three IETFs per year.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are referring to. Off the top of my he= ad I can think of three or four Mac clients and I'm not aware that any = of them require compiling code.

I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained Beagle IM from the= Mac app store and joined hallway@jabber.ietf.org withi= n a couple of minutes.

Regards,
Matthew
--0000000000002b348405b1188732-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 11:04:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16F63A1063 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I7ZCKxdyRCAM for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F3AB3A1062 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com with SMTP id 13so1666918qvc.9 for ; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=QFO7c2AEIoVOEkiA4JZGiN0cGt/mjqERG8CQmuybMAY=; b=DFGhA0P6G5yVYw9cRpATvJpDXkr+JRmfnq52bFKI6yzARX9qJZUVjHxo4xJmKfkjiZ sauJ16Z34MFZ4M7jOgYo+ZpajewTCSljPwQwP/D2+58P1MqI4BLPcLX6w4EqrQyLDCJ3 u2LRtjpEml5bBAUtyM/1bvPNiNx1ULOvvoTE9Y2rRE8C8LGXXIkBeUMVDpTjqQmQpftg Y9kVnc1ChXhSvAujkpl6lqsz8M2vJz2bw/+1pEJwqADHJHiGF4X1Bb+NPj/g/AVeMoRx Hzx90gh8gtrK17wWoJNcPihQwhmdeaWOUYCtvRu+Lx6GUkgQQjT412+8OR8i4e3WgNjU ks3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=QFO7c2AEIoVOEkiA4JZGiN0cGt/mjqERG8CQmuybMAY=; b=JwrSyrFdQOpUYj8AiVOUCqAjNw8df8K+1mUUEtbP5tL56kn3V/CBCZMXzym7E7HAvp KG4RcuwCFaDIQZkZjaQibFQElKCBe5kcHVSqUlatHmGx4H4PZMoA8tKYZ1aABCqA7mC2 32RqLxCA2GMoNwoHZWXzA0Jy54/y6VkSSJ1UmNWiHkvsTWNHBNiTgT+dpiM5wlHuB1Rm MR1rfkJbzQt1SJ8RMonSYpzH/fO17K6jSThkeUXdaOgO2vILh7vBSlAErX1SjUbDFyoU nnv42QhjVuVF0U8bQUExbXE2SNNDWCxjkyF57gfcfvtjxa7bgoiwNqjUN9p4J2HVWgn4 U2Yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MyDznlV+nDzZxnQsH+Y8wBMeEy7QCbzKfbfay88Lh/286Fuo3 0SZYGHuLRdUjX54Cd6lzzRE8CkQ0uQeGsiJB X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzq7GY9oQx3zBZF+XJp6LomHrBbDc91Vf6kfsK1PhwHeSAN0JMdxKzSvwmHFrj0lbDZqHVYNw== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:57a4:: with SMTP id g4mr4290206qvx.61.1602093887319; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mithrandir.lan (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d78sm1837562qke.83.2020.10.07.11.04.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:04:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_92EBF404-641B-406F-A0AD-D5F7E8E36B27" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.0.3.2.61\)) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:04:44 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , Tom Pusateri , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" To: Matthew Wild References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> <25969.1602000325@localhost> <47D19FE4-0F0F-4325-A9FF-FD3E43DAA814@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3.2.61) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:04:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_92EBF404-641B-406F-A0AD-D5F7E8E36B27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Oct 7, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Wild wrote: > I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained Beagle IM = from the Mac app store and joined hallway@jabber.ietf.org = within a couple of minutes. That=E2=80=99s very cool. That was not available (or maybe just not = findable with search) for IETF 108. How=E2=80=99s the UX? --Apple-Mail=_92EBF404-641B-406F-A0AD-D5F7E8E36B27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Oct 7, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> = wrote:
I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained = Beagle IM from the Mac app store and joined hallway@jabber.ietf.org within a = couple of minutes.

That=E2=80=99s very cool. That was not = available (or maybe just not findable with search) for IETF 108. How=E2=80= =99s the UX?

= --Apple-Mail=_92EBF404-641B-406F-A0AD-D5F7E8E36B27-- From nobody Wed Oct 7 12:19:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E79A3A1319 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W-h4CkEXKe9x for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA4C63A0F12 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id 188so4177796qkk.12 for ; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:19:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HJRw4IZ2opPdZWJ9r9uk/EHnvDvBTHRXIvMBa9dx98U=; b=Gr8UdKMAmIDFx4OtMAw3o8dsFuoYDHCv05wbEKVvJkWfgKwWN837LoyF/c37KWauHk xKmREhnrXeMqhQE+DrdqkfHk1ZoeAJM1EpaVQ01qnjS2xxFZory0QSaa4p7m0+dKIHIb DqeFuYhokyZi7vHWg4ChR+kdpqg0JeEh1g2jauYbALCxEYXKWSTHoYRxDnYI4zpertDg gmSob9y20vBmy/Y9kw6GLRob6xVAycdQ9CIdZe2PL84Ia96SrriCvGGdS2WyzlOSl6eU cKMR9zVkPHrMD65nIRrfh0MpC1SnWZSY3HSOPLx3M8zHIxft7BClfGti9wJK4zxZJt2n syGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HJRw4IZ2opPdZWJ9r9uk/EHnvDvBTHRXIvMBa9dx98U=; b=GkpU2WfKyubLZ5Q7Y4dvaV0hSypjCIM30MCfnFgVE6RRL7YcP/vDpblPV4q2COSv5m 6v9zfOEDKI0jtoyykxalyLiLrY5fyttSt1EMhGGzZFLL8xrIT2IKXy7AV+JD0mwFyaKR KGCTWT7I/4h4sVWZqI1AnM+OQbpB4FP+9c44mWm9Vcnpo7gfK/wGWu8LBrJD0Kco4Mje e/8oDsufuXhgkcv1uz+1ZDMx5ojgd0miHtTSU0VybzgAdWvV6zBfVUeHbvBkVqI4qIH2 0qc1zQEuVafBomFnORULS3SJOa+vtKC9W7Fkm/F1K6UiJJDKgmJAPDkmibs5FIfoCan9 QdYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531J3Gs1ZZO3QH/kHHqldBKTSptgvDQdJjxTBK8EinFHbDfxCUAk YkegXiXhFHTv/zMxL0Kq5pONOc6EZXZBQXqqdPBpvlUqiUcU4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzqInH84ij9nHEeaBG03BQHu3B80UdY0VtoECZX04n87iMVoRs+9Bo2Zjcxgl9mZRGPON0Crr0r8PU+BecbdlQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:bf87:: with SMTP id p129mr4459394qkf.203.1602098372713; Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:19:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <81FB5928-AE85-4806-8F11-0B2A91F4AD0F@bangj.com> <25969.1602000325@localhost> <47D19FE4-0F0F-4325-A9FF-FD3E43DAA814@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: From: Matthew Wild Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 20:18:42 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Michael Richardson , Tom Pusateri , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066a0e505b1199851" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 19:19:35 -0000 --00000000000066a0e505b1199851 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, 19:04 Ted Lemon, wrote: > On Oct 7, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Wild wrote: > > I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained Beagle IM from > the Mac app store and joined hallway@jabber.ietf.org within a couple of > minutes. > > > That=E2=80=99s very cool. That was not available (or maybe just not finda= ble with > search) for IETF 108. How=E2=80=99s the UX? > My first time using it, but seems pretty sleek. Improving UX of XMPP clients is a passion of mine (modernxmpp.org), and I did file this proposal to improve first-time setup: https://github.com/tigase/beagle-im/issues/54 I know the developers value feedback, so encourage anyone who encounters any problems to do the same. Happy to field XMPP questions off-list too, as this thread is getting a bit broad. I just wanted to highlight that there are absolutely suitable maintained XMPP clients around, even if the docs on ietf.org could probably do with an update to make that better known. Regards, Matthew --00000000000066a0e505b1199851 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, 19:04 Ted Lemon, <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
On Oct 7, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> wro= te:
I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtai= ned Beagle IM from the Mac app store and joined=C2=A0hallway@jabber.ietf.org=C2=A0within a couple of minutes= .

That=E2=80=99= s very cool. That was not available (or maybe just not findable with search= ) for IETF 108. How=E2=80=99s the UX?
<= div dir=3D"auto">
My first time using it, but se= ems pretty sleek. Improving UX of XMPP clients is a passion of mine (modernxmpp.org), and I did file this propos= al to improve first-time setup:=C2=A0https://github.com/tigase/beagle-im/issues/54
=

I know the developers value f= eedback, so encourage anyone who encounters any problems to do the same.

Happy to field XMPP questi= ons off-list too, as this thread is getting a bit broad. I just wanted to h= ighlight that there are absolutely suitable maintained XMPP clients around,= even if the docs on ietf.org could probabl= y do with an update to make that better known.

<= /div>
Regards,
Matthew
--00000000000066a0e505b1199851-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 06:24:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7F73A0B5A for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2020 06:24:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 85dRDltCEB1M for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2020 06:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 982A43A0B58 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2020 06:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id c62so6963774qke.1 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 06:24:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=Ta/MwQ/LDqyhrpj95UjbMeUAnOgv2AlxBksrc6r0444=; b=D9f/34AbVbJprY3saq/4re1y+yZkijQJuFE4Yk5oIgMlJq7TAPhpe1T5gNKGdurfUv O1p0d5KmwmCEr2oGyzNzR343Dm6qkLASrG/2dtl4sEcPrFb6QocabFthepoSYqTX+kqB /upQV+zMCtEuP4YTBUTZKTu/u2i5dsDst/ylCjzfkdv6sENRcDcxojx/pXXW+5zK+p2e W2zkcDMbUpWGUvy/FOzIyWIXwcMfepI+5ryIfUklilZGz2iE0tZJUGnlGphRumZOYTV0 qP0HT+LR5kUA29nrsYynKEMu9UmEg6SWkPshcxl7+DVDBihPDCK/qjZl+3Yrbg6EIEz0 fKYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=Ta/MwQ/LDqyhrpj95UjbMeUAnOgv2AlxBksrc6r0444=; b=ctLk9tl9P+NIP0SuRIyKNIN0QkYtLCgq7L77fyuRwNJu/8hYxKXcmVAP9+Rf9pME6u AS6w1XWhxhPPE+8JKoQpb5MhucCnnHFZY7Bz0BlIZ2Bkoh4MlZ+/FGfZOSu3ucwPS8SK qV2zfUw+WxlNsrHx6SQLpNxsUyMPCcKZK/zg891JYcmBmecFx9KaEuEoaSLjG3Aor5k9 avnt2cSLFTO+vMa7WHWQkSJ5zAtozaxHQPb/7CfWQiCUuQcTc9o4vuUziQ+f4+e6jMha RuMdTz2GFS0qvAYAXgAlGLLYN5EjHoq+7ZrGGaySsiPKT3vmOm53ayw10r/VkeJ+yuSb i6Ww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sgo6s1rRbo++MRqknbyE2VlI0kZfonGfiKMtOJ6d/SM/Ziqjm qJ/PE1wdTU2T/6PvIAyLiBCW6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhQXgbCUVDnqFR+mza2umeqbR5xgOlvXd8tmHLac8G+/xXRIUaxPFecn38whlsY8/KLpplSw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:a45:: with SMTP id j5mr8407568qka.367.1602163467324; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 06:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x75sm2151972qka.59.2020.10.08.06.24.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Oct 2020 06:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C93B98B0-7277-45E9-ACD8-C3832A4DB7BC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:24:24 -0400 Message-Id: <93CB95A5-68A2-4260-8B53-74F0EB7FA156@fugue.com> References: Cc: Michael Richardson , Tom Pusateri , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Matthew Wild X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18A373) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 13:24:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C93B98B0-7277-45E9-ACD8-C3832A4DB7BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That said, in order to make xmpp usable for IETF we would need for there to b= e a supported server operated by the ietf.=20 > On Oct 7, 2020, at 15:19, Matthew Wild wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, 19:04 Ted Lemon, wrote: >>> On Oct 7, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Wild wrote: >>> I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained Beagle IM from t= he Mac app store and joined hallway@jabber.ietf.org within a couple of minut= es. >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s very cool. That was not available (or maybe just not finda= ble with search) for IETF 108. How=E2=80=99s the UX? >=20 >=20 > My first time using it, but seems pretty sleek. Improving UX of XMPP clien= ts is a passion of mine (modernxmpp.org), and I did file this proposal to im= prove first-time setup: https://github.com/tigase/beagle-im/issues/54 >=20 > I know the developers value feedback, so encourage anyone who encounters a= ny problems to do the same. >=20 > Happy to field XMPP questions off-list too, as this thread is getting a bi= t broad. I just wanted to highlight that there are absolutely suitable maint= ained XMPP clients around, even if the docs on ietf.org could probably do wi= th an update to make that better known. >=20 > Regards, > Matthew --Apple-Mail-C93B98B0-7277-45E9-ACD8-C3832A4DB7BC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That said, in order to mak= e xmpp usable for IETF we would need for there to be a supported server oper= ated by the ietf. 

= On Oct 7, 2020, at 15:19, Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF
On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, 19:04 Ted Lemon, <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
On Oct= 7, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> wrote:
I just dusted off my MacBook to confirm this, I obtained Beagle IM fro= m the Mac app store and joined ha= llway@jabber.ietf.org within a couple of minutes.

That=E2=80=99s very cool. That was not avail= able (or maybe just not findable with search) for IETF 108. How=E2=80=99s th= e UX?

My first time using it, but seems pretty sleek. Improving UX of X= MPP clients is a passion of mine (modernxm= pp.org), and I did file this proposal to improve first-time setup: = https://github.com= /tigase/beagle-im/issues/54

I know the developers value feedback, so encourage anyone who encount= ers any problems to do the same.

Happy to field XMPP questions off-list too, as this thread is getting= a bit broad. I just wanted to highlight that there are absolutely suitable m= aintained XMPP clients around, even if the docs on ietf.org could probably do with an update to make that better known.<= /div>

Regards,
Matthew
= --Apple-Mail-C93B98B0-7277-45E9-ACD8-C3832A4DB7BC-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 08:24:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AD33A0F4C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b2IqlxizLA6k; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18CE63A0F3C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 09EFNoHd062337 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:23:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1602689032; bh=LYlUKHbvsATAkX0+dNsCFCoOYwFVUtmJk1w9AD4IZgc=; h=From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Mz3fTekN6ZaiPzIfn9yyGJuIBWnGvUpzln+Whd3n/wRPk4t2YuK6w3jbOouBmWFi4 4YNz7yEhFbXnaRYJClP9rAed6WDcDN799hk6F63EgPA+XO880slbB6PAFDDtpdTd0X l2/zY4l/SEyCzoKFHObEXhMbp92tp7AI68ov5+7A= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local From: Robert Sparks To: Tom Pusateri , Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> <622776EA-0F69-4B28-9CD2-D099EBB8D1DD@bangj.com> <63a1fb8c-12eb-a8e7-7bd0-1676d7dbb394@nostrum.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:23:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63a1fb8c-12eb-a8e7-7bd0-1676d7dbb394@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------46B1D3FA1FBB746263A70ABA" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Reminder (Re: [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:24:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------46B1D3FA1FBB746263A70ABA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (With apologies for the intentional crosspost) If you have more to say, please do so by 16 Oct. My read of the feedback so far is that the evidence we had for low usage = was probably misleading, and there is still a demand for a live audio=20 stream if it were presented in a more useful form. I anticipate we will=20 do the retooling to provide these as one named stream per session going=20 forward. If anyone thinks that is not what we should be doing, please=20 say so. RjS > We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for IETF=20 > meetings, > starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the community before=20 > we do. > > At many past meetings we have produced live mp3 streams for each=20 > session. These > steams have been associated with physical meeting rooms, and appeared=20 > before > and during the session as a link on the agenda page to a URL like > 'http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf.m3u'.=20 > > > For the last several meetings, these have only been available as a=20 > live stream. > Recordings of that stream have not been made available after the=20 > meeting. The > full video recording provided by Meetecho has served as the way to=20 > listen to > (or watch) any given session after the fact. > > Further, for the last several meetings, the live streams have seen=20 > very light > use, on the order of 10 uses for IETF 108. > > Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement to = > allow > meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing the live=20 > streams to run > outside their scheduled times will require changing how they are=20 > represented, > to no longer be associated with "rooms" or "tracks". The code refactor = > at both > the datatracker and at meetecho to support would not be a huge effort, = > but it > also would not be tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity,= > recognizing that the regular meetecho connection and recordings=20 > satisfy the > need, is the better use of our resources. That holds true even for futu= re > in-person meetings. > > There are several points that have been considered while arriving at th= is > proposal: > > * Chairs use the recordings to fill in minutes. > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For the last several meetings, the chairs have been = using the=20 > Meetecho > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 recordings for this purpose. Recordings of the live = mp3 streams=20 > haven't > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 been available. > > * Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than one=20 > meeting at > =C2=A0 a time. > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Meetecho allows joining multiple sessions. > > * Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough=20 > computer to run > =C2=A0 meetecho. > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at the = last several=20 > meetings. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This population isn't using the mp3 streams to addre= ss the posited > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 limitations.=C2=A0 If this is a=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 concern that some people think they=20 > will > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 experience then we can look at asking Meetecho to al= low sending only > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 audio (muting all video). > > * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session i= n > =C2=A0 real-time without paying a registration fee. > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting= =20 > registration > =C2=A0=C2=A0 structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is avai= lable and=20 > being > =C2=A0=C2=A0 improved. > > Please send comments by 16 Oct 2020 either to tools-discuss@ietf.org or= > directly to rjsparks@nostrum.com. > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --------------46B1D3FA1FBB746263A70ABA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

(With apologies for the intentional crosspost)

If you have more to say, please do so by 16 Oct.

My read of the feedback so far is that the evidence we had for low usage was probably misleading, and there is still a demand for a live audio stream if it were presented in a more useful form. I anticipate we will do the retooling to provide these as one named stream per session going forward. If anyone thinks that is not what we should be doing, please say so.

RjS


We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for IETF meetings,
starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the community before we do.

At many past meetings we have produced live mp3 streams for each session. These
steams have been associated with physical meeting rooms, and appeared before
and during the session as a link on the agenda page to a URL like
'http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf<some_number_associated_with_the_room>.m3u'.

For the last several meetings, these have only been available as a live stream.
Recordings of that stream have not been made available after the meeting. The
full video recording provided by Meetecho has served as the way to listen to
(or watch) any given session after the fact.

Further, for the last several meetings, the live streams have seen very light
use, on the order of 10 uses for IETF 108.

Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement to allow
meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing the live streams to run
outside their scheduled times will require changing how they are represented,
to no longer be associated with "rooms" or "tracks". The code refactor at both
the datatracker and at meetecho to support would not be a huge effort, but it
also would not be tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity,
recognizing that the regular meetecho connection and recordings satisfy the
need, is the better use of our resources. That holds true even for future
in-person meetings.

There are several points that have been considered while arriving at this
proposal:

* Chairs use the recordings to fill in minutes.

    For the last several meetings, the chairs have been using the Meetecho
    recordings for this purpose. Recordings of the live mp3 streams haven't
    been available.

* Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than one meeting at
  a time.

    Meetecho allows joining multiple sessions.

* Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough computer to run
  meetecho.

    The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at the last several meetings.
    This population isn't using the mp3 streams to address the posited
    limitations.  If this is a     concern that some people think they will
    experience then we can look at asking Meetecho to allow sending only
    audio (muting all video).

* This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session in
  real-time without paying a registration fee.

   There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting registration
   structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is available and being
   improved.

Please send comments by 16 Oct 2020 either to tools-discuss@ietf.org or
directly to rjsparks@nostrum.com.

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

--------------46B1D3FA1FBB746263A70ABA-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 12:39:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F227B3A1043 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:39:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YwD7LKwBS6lP for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE64C3A1024 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 09EJdLdN032638 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:39:21 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99D322048 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:39:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B476F22042 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:39:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([195.166.134.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 09EJdJv4026560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:39:20 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:39:19 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <009701d6a261$b5e1cd50$21a567f0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIQR0eqJxMgL/6SrFrJJRm/IAPAfakkMfkQ Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 195.166.134.17 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25726.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.317-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--18.317-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25726.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--18.316900-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: HLMPCFyIyBPxIbpQ8BhdbFhxiWPCm7jEg8C02zkI7w5PIE7Hm/IRlGK9 bQZf9PqT/f654+Kbr9Mf1AdLUyG7ncRI9S5UU3PpZdorcofH/GlZbM2hfH4YXuTf7rps46N0rZL AiMblSRFS/AcOjBTLgTWGBU0NLH/3ZbGIpMBcYQOVUcz8XpiS9I977xNrVVYjcYYxs+5bpq9wz0 jOMVzoJp0wCvOXHCu4YTBWmuuhXOWAsyTzvcMKh1CIU02oW+3V7oxoJksZ3aKw0EfjpqqTDpOcM h/FzQm0RJmBh7Wt+jYlcNpMEWQLNXbgfwMwo3fZnVTWWiNp+v8FcnqPYTPUh7C4oAwPxab1Z46U 9co1r+qmYrsHitNZoguxttHI0O0j5rARkHdbWIXN+qWlu2ZxaK15LjjfKZ5REHbR9wS1xYyO57e 7SDv3mLyIK96C/CPiGIoqBH3+JtyvOBs7CdwR5a73FVUimLHP8wxV8JR3NqiM3HYV8MG5nZTrbO 9zUOWjhHa+qza/Fa+DHEtwREc5S/3OUDZboT0w4FUAJhNPCVr5bVQl8A2YjlY9yet6QEd8YBRw2 YrpcPWBmbNrxu6Hf8zyMdM2wIwjrDjX/OYFODSyaXLtlwnZHJB1WlHbrcyxcabN9n2aNkEjaUTZ vj1Bi3SKyq5RtAY08UGXZQs6hzeuq6A5tHFPXptqY+a8nZ92+PgcXG6KFc4BrqGufylAMFYeMFM U8oBGWlKxQOtXhv4EC3fHgelkpo+Xyy5YdK5UZIiwfaqCcB99LQinZ4QefBrZLyuS+0VxsOzOnc rmCoP3FLeZXNZS4LU+KYi1qWO6ftwZ3X11IV0= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 19:39:34 -0000 Nice clean web interface and account created OK (now I have 4 xmpp = accounts =F0=9F=98=89 on different servers, but Google is getting more = and more grumpy about supporting jabber) Linking to my installed client (pidgin) was a bit crumbly - the web page = found pidgin and opened it, but couldn't install the account. But it worked fine manually. One question: will the meeting rooms still be wg@jabber.ietf.org or are = they moving to wg@xmpp-trial1.ietf.org (to be replaced by = wg@xmpp.ietf.org)? Thanks for the work. Adrian -----Original Message----- From: IETF-Announce On Behalf Of Robert = Sparks Sent: 14 October 2020 18:45 To: ietf-announce@ietf.org Subject: Trial chat service: xmpp In addition to the trial instances of the matrix and zulip chat = services, we have deployed a trial instance of an xmpp service that allows local=20 accounts to be registered, allows guest account access, and provides a web = client. These services are available at xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. As noted earlier, we are deploying these services to gain operational experience and get community feedback about how well they meet the need = for IETF-related chat. We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) that = many IETF participants find jabber a significant problem. This is partly due = to difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client=20 issues. There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to improve = the IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative = groupchat solution. This addition explores the the first path. This install has very little local configuration or customization. As=20 with the other trials, over the next few weeks, we will be exploring=20 reconfiguring the service to use datatracker credentials for sign-in. Bridging between = the systems is already being explored. Please remember that one consequence = of these explorations is that there will likely be times, outside of = meetings, when accounts will be disrupted or even removed and will have to be=20 recreated. We would like feedback on how well any of these services meet chat needs = during meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, interims, adhocs, and=20 hallway conversations. Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback = received to inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we will = operate them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not=20 intend to preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the = trial instances as we move forward. The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. = However, please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org There are several community members who have put in significant effort helping us to set up these trial instances. Please join me in thanking Tim April, Matthew Hodgson, and Matthew Wild for their assistance. Robert Sparks - Tools team project manager _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Wed Oct 14 12:44:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32623A0FF6 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RabDgxZp8JKO for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 057E03A0F2C for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id s89so235768ybi.12 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:44:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kCJklTCn9ry+OSnRidYPUjednKW+kq+bwrPPEgwCEBY=; b=nRfhhg3Amr3dnRWAVkddPkRuOciNGdMKa18eHcV236uPvnLvKY7nyMt+SOblrmXxeJ DT1A9b6sKUxU3DMIXY+MCMc3tk+5eE01o/bZf+M0R3k6cv45KX6BN6rykulbEOfl23uE 9cksrcg4IgTrsmo2IP4XxJTpxU8NHc6Cl1Q281i5R/x3W2CEZ6PFml8oydnJaRjvc9cX 6/UTrBxj5Gsyj0BpVHODzY96HbAvamgkoGHx63bT/JtU4RhgP8Y0lwCpoi75+KLhEkgd YWlS0AEUcAeA+mzlr7xelDHJKovZB3HKVHMVZHMqYofjgiPQVP8Wa5dr79u7cvlQua6U GM7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kCJklTCn9ry+OSnRidYPUjednKW+kq+bwrPPEgwCEBY=; b=LpxIx41WNmKKATRdVQx3R0vdn6ExbndYubRGEq1aNXwQVpT3j8DqBDhyORTT8/02EB 9qPaQ5TE4ny6bEbrxfQLIS3v50wIHbjEPPgUC04fVN9WsBzPsfBOOfyC0YhXIhg+adR2 hfgVWJ5SWPMuolTTtFfK5ospsdnko7vViVedUdCFQhAxHcmklI0e4GWiYF6vlnZdAO6O zVLpVN6rThDlr2Fe072EO3LKe7DWE4UsKQJI70YznsKbMDklM+LEfy63gVNEFXc2DvJJ uNTecDCQrhCbRd1DTTbsV/zl7dbbyHA+bD6R/f26+ZmIKVgPQcWqAJPIbRu8goooP7Cz FW0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533I/S7i3DCEdnVTbGPMUgdwEn1/9d/LX+dqThZlOgM5OXetD+Zj qphlU2lZrAoSANYYve7mIEL77aHCLG1+8p15hQI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxZJhJhqBhsF6W4gJ4VK4pjKsYPeIzgKa3TyYn2CA33yjD3D+kbD/uPBniWqxzHbedxaRTPSIuPu3XTftV+Aws= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4e43:: with SMTP id c64mr517971ybb.380.1602704667301; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:44:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 14:44:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005fd9f205b1a6c2f1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 19:44:30 -0000 --0000000000005fd9f205b1a6c2f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Robert, On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 12:47 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > In addition to the trial instances of the matrix and zulip chat services, > we have deployed a trial instance of an xmpp service that allows local > accounts > to be registered, allows guest account access, and provides a web client. > > These services are available at xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. > > As noted earlier, we are deploying these services to gain operational > experience and get community feedback about how well they meet the need for > IETF-related chat. > > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) that > many > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem. This is partly due to > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client > issues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to improve the > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative groupchat > solution. This addition explores the the first path. > > This install has very little local configuration or customization. As > with the > other trials, over the next few weeks, we will be exploring > reconfiguring the > service to use datatracker credentials for sign-in. Bridging between the > systems is already being explored. Please remember that one consequence of > these explorations is that there will likely be times, outside of meetings, > when accounts will be disrupted or even removed and will have to be > recreated. > > We would like feedback on how well any of these services meet chat needs > during > meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, interims, adhocs, and > hallway > conversations. > > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback received > to > inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we will operate > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not > intend to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the > trial > instances as we move forward. > > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). > > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org > > There are several community members who have put in significant effort > helping us to set up these trial instances. Please join me in thanking > Tim April, Matthew Hodgson, and Matthew Wild for their assistance. > > Robert Sparks - Tools team project manager > Thanks to all of you for your work, but especially on the XMPP instance. I think I'm good for now, but there have been times, and I've had computers, where XMPP/jabber was problematic. I hope this makes XMPP more attractive to the community, so we can really see what its strengths and deficiencies might be. Best, Spencer --0000000000005fd9f205b1a6c2f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Robert,

On Wed, Oc= t 14, 2020 at 12:47 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
In addition to the trial instan= ces of the matrix and zulip chat services,
we have deployed a trial inst= ance of an xmpp service that allows local
accounts
to be registered, = allows guest account access, and provides a web client.

These servic= es are available at=C2=A0xmpp-trial1.ietf.org.

As noted earli= er, we are deploying these services to gain operational
experience and g= et community feedback about how well they meet the need for
IETF-related= chat.

We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey<= br>(https://www.ietf.org/media/docum= ents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) that many
IETF participants find j= abber a significant problem.=C2=A0 This is partly due to
difficulties in= finding a free jabber service and partly due to client
issues.
There= are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to improve the
I= ETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative groupchatsolution. This addition explores the the first path.

This install = has very little local configuration or customization.=C2=A0 As
with the<= br>other trials, over the next few weeks, we will be exploring
reconfigu= ring the
service to use datatracker credentials for sign-in.=C2=A0 Bridg= ing between the
systems is already being explored. Please remember that = one consequence of
these explorations is that there will likely be times= , outside of meetings,
when accounts will be disrupted or even removed a= nd will have to be
recreated.

We would like feedback on how well = any of these services meet chat needs
during
meetings, both the full = online IETF 109 meeting, interims, adhocs, and
hallway
conversations.=

Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback re= ceived to
inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we= will operate
them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down= . We do not
intend to
preserve or migrate any account configuration o= r chat history from the trial
instances as we move forward.

The c= hat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However,
ple= ase treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See
https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/).

Please send feedbac= k on the services to=C2=A0tools-discuss@ietf.org

There are several community m= embers who have put in significant effort
helping us to set up these tri= al instances. Please join me in thanking
Tim April, Matthew Hodgson, and= Matthew Wild for their assistance.

Robert Sparks - Tools team proje= ct manager

Thanks to all of= you for your work, but especially on the XMPP instance.=C2=A0
I think I'm good for now, but there have been times, and I= 've had computers, where XMPP/jabber was problematic. I hope this makes= XMPP more attractive to the community, so we can really see what its stren= gths and deficiencies might be.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Best,<= /div>

Spencer
--0000000000005fd9f205b1a6c2f1-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 13:17:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF1E3A1036 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vslfEgYOsjQb for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B853A1033 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 09EKGsP4070709 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:16:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1602706615; bh=ugSZXAU+hi14fC/J4pZPqmfJ55IMWpj50V3wS5S8eMw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=vq98SqV3GD1uG5JhiZ+nwckum01e2sC6S1gW58gIND7oOSMWCHRS+kdXOQi2UMhXz 7cFO8gOWCmfi1ENX9cIz6XstHv3WajPsSdmTn/hKVenIpL6/T11LrvflC3w+etA+wu H80xzcwC1opAdOHSU4pEgutJVx5HMPEedYEkCFO0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> <009701d6a261$b5e1cd50$21a567f0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:16:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <009701d6a261$b5e1cd50$21a567f0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:16:58 -0000 On 10/14/20 2:39 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Nice clean web interface and account created OK (now I have 4 xmpp accounts 😉 on different servers, but Google is getting more and more grumpy about supporting jabber) > Linking to my installed client (pidgin) was a bit crumbly - the web page found pidgin and opened it, but couldn't install the account. > But it worked fine manually. > > One question: will the meeting rooms still be wg@jabber.ietf.org Those have not moved. > or are they moving to wg@xmpp-trial1.ietf.org (to be replaced by wg@xmpp.ietf.org)? > > Thanks for the work. > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > From: IETF-Announce On Behalf Of Robert Sparks > Sent: 14 October 2020 18:45 > To: ietf-announce@ietf.org > Subject: Trial chat service: xmpp > > In addition to the trial instances of the matrix and zulip chat services, > we have deployed a trial instance of an xmpp service that allows local > accounts > to be registered, allows guest account access, and provides a web client. > > These services are available at xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. > > As noted earlier, we are deploying these services to gain operational > experience and get community feedback about how well they meet the need for > IETF-related chat. > > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) that many > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem. This is partly due to > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client > issues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to improve the > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative groupchat > solution. This addition explores the the first path. > > This install has very little local configuration or customization. As > with the > other trials, over the next few weeks, we will be exploring > reconfiguring the > service to use datatracker credentials for sign-in. Bridging between the > systems is already being explored. Please remember that one consequence of > these explorations is that there will likely be times, outside of meetings, > when accounts will be disrupted or even removed and will have to be > recreated. > > We would like feedback on how well any of these services meet chat needs > during > meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, interims, adhocs, and > hallway > conversations. > > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback received to > inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we will operate > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not > intend to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the trial > instances as we move forward. > > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). > > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org > > There are several community members who have put in significant effort > helping us to set up these trial instances. Please join me in thanking > Tim April, Matthew Hodgson, and Matthew Wild for their assistance. > > Robert Sparks - Tools team project manager > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Thu Oct 15 16:57:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4773A0D09 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IuWVSheq6H1s for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 779D13A0D06 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id p11so264767pld.5 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ETiw6eMheNkdA6lL/nWPI62BK7DTAdvfCUloCKoh8KQ=; b=JiK1NQyaQYA24cVMdBe2R7m+2oAWWhlQ+GHoUcrC1YLFP7IIlyK1JAw5q5TWKCpivW s5GAYYazcJ+4DWY2EzRJLnHua9+sgNXHlSyIiKh9Y+1KuUrYgClf/KODTlkhypCgQqtX UqOAf+hIY2ueCwSbGhx7f8fzfpHf5ytjCTaFmYSmc8SFk1PETJ9vHMW/4xaPyduuc67p f/U9ohyGHFhBQMA1gTHDZ84Cd3IkaZr4ejMCdjAtUWZFHRpN0vS76WXLFMrGy7Mwulut SuIJnbSp9uIuP7a+UBBE7hxBlDeZdKpQfzOw0cqvZyB9d79s2M6Tk3/Y28EARbCoTBk2 gNlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ETiw6eMheNkdA6lL/nWPI62BK7DTAdvfCUloCKoh8KQ=; b=DlD1rkuM/B8YboH7ahy+NQ8Qg6pC2d4NJtK7E+FugOpD8TZgXfyDV1u157dGqdkDkS riwoEtKeo4FYlVlq3hjFgyMG98L59GPmq42cZTs7DKD4+AVwGOg6eOZ0HRTbSnQfUjfy 2TRuxpID7L5LQc9S05o+nukqLl0uCoGWCYs2f4M2XbvumxbYBoAiVL+X4csLXQbhbQtL 1gkAIYDA/rMPcxPShr6Ff8gV84/uaXKg8LQup7+prEhqJ3mxIUot15LLE57ijd/6RbSc 71Zw+4Dst3kYQ5U7mGhBOZN9t4koFd3b7reYJvgu3arzQAM8U1BmlSjj3PhoqyG9odsT oocQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cCM3FJGJA1ZARoCqVUSlPagnzUXsxvnjgRV/MvmxHONh1wVfh OMcFjFHNlUsPlSjxJy3VU/ay/g0nPRQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHBzPLmlKRXYt3tiBr/6MwW/S6q517vVnrWqbtuisH2hmW0qEAeyF6Be/aN2wJxKAEr9AAmw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:19db:: with SMTP id 27mr1174002pjj.110.1602806272446; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.37.163] (sc-cs-567-laptop.uoa.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.37.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t6sm454709pgn.26.2020.10.15.16.57.50 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:57:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Tools Team Discussion References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1d816d82-c62b-c4cb-9336-702d1a317103@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 12:57:47 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 23:57:55 -0000 First comment is that when I connected to https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org to= create an account, with Gajim already installed, the "open the app" butt= on didn't work. It seems that installing Gajim back when this laptop was new didn't autom= atically set the association with xmpp: in Firefox. Setting it manually s= eems to be very obscure if at all possible. OK, so I went the manual account creation route. I'm becarpenter@xmpp-tri= al1.ietf.org if anybody cares. It would be good if the invite pages sugge= sted a test chat room to try. I've managed to join hallway@jabber.ietf.org but my test messages seem to= have vanished into a gravitational singularity, ditto a 1:1 message to s= omeone else in the room. However, when I rejoin the room as becarpenter@j= abber.org, I can see those messages were in fact displayed. So right now jabber.org seems to work better than xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. Brian Regards Brian Carpenter On 15-Oct-20 06:45, Robert Sparks wrote: > In addition to the trial instances of the matrix and zulip chat service= s, > we have deployed a trial instance of an xmpp service that allows local = > accounts > to be registered, allows guest account access, and provides a web clien= t. >=20 > These services are available at xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. >=20 > As noted earlier, we are deploying these services to gain operational > experience and get community feedback about how well they meet the need= for > IETF-related chat. >=20 > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) that= many > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem.=C2=A0 This is part= ly due to > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client = > issues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to improve= the > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative groupc= hat > solution. This addition explores the the first path. >=20 > This install has very little local configuration or customization.=C2=A0= As=20 > with the > other trials, over the next few weeks, we will be exploring=20 > reconfiguring the > service to use datatracker credentials for sign-in.=C2=A0 Bridging betw= een the > systems is already being explored. Please remember that one consequence= of > these explorations is that there will likely be times, outside of meeti= ngs, > when accounts will be disrupted or even removed and will have to be=20 > recreated. >=20 > We would like feedback on how well any of these services meet chat need= s=20 > during > meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, interims, adhocs, and = > hallway > conversations. >=20 > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback receiv= ed to > inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we will ope= rate > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not=20 > intend to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the = trial > instances as we move forward. >=20 > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. Howeve= r, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). >=20 > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 > There are several community members who have put in significant effort > helping us to set up these trial instances. Please join me in thanking > Tim April, Matthew Hodgson, and Matthew Wild for their assistance. >=20 > Robert Sparks - Tools team project manager >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 From nobody Fri Oct 16 01:07:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB91F3A0DCA for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 01:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4shGYaZBakP for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 01:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04E203A0DC6 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 01:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id m9so1103169qth.7 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 01:07:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LmMxlCuCtfTEMylnjHipLBxVIWW7XiV4Tn5ZLm0o7ZA=; b=b6YHncnkP9i5kijVG66KfcXryyZdATrzTFO+sHCOqD8s8d3YNt9hrQvbm2TfLkSS2K PbXSqDQIjgoIcSYCslh+WA5iI0szgHQUBj2U0nuxAbrNVIzdbMbvJKPjT/pl/URHv3Wl qnSbueuYaAePIws7Urd9id1gF3j8l5IUympiDKvI1lbba4mM5uGpCPAn4ArpTdhpS8SO XMdC3oRDPm7Zax9CCiCbR5sQ3oZhiJbBOJkzswseHdoUcvBSZqHUoVMmGtFxh+r4+Ezz /XEEEPeylEovt1EvWMKPrhOSyR/M85Vpq2Q9zd1bYSkmrQm4MBryYODUvGHMHhTMuOiQ lYqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LmMxlCuCtfTEMylnjHipLBxVIWW7XiV4Tn5ZLm0o7ZA=; b=pOQi0eRtW4sBZvyIF9u9KQSnqgyL0B3ozihDC7Og0M6uF0xqBoMgOstDe0IsVraaql LNupxiLQYbeIpOagSafzBcAdnoFFDe7Rur4wzkJdANFmpNw/RXnZbECyX7/xyVdW6mkf pcOzYlS+qhKGg1Hz+PNDWQZf9yzITgowSfgJRQF4uzmY72sWUEH9kJujwy6v4fKY6SXb +CUtkQEepk96KsnP62kIcwLkfsGeRM5XFHe60ZNhBRj3E5OnaupLrLA8Dhv6THqnjzI8 HV4xC/9o3sGx8tNwmkwex1YLwfkrY9Pm/KF/nPKMTn4Isd06OKPifdz1JlxjctdDjF3v OBtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EgIXBthkCr0MaTdNOCg0ctwWewzHbep3tKk58nr9vq/jqR6jE URhdxqwK528TDed0KVwiye2WNGVg1LOXIjAV+mo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBRczg+skl3JwQUlCMa96Cj9dB5OfUQ2lsugyEyhvk2W6kk2QQngTVSgMVvp/DNSn0cPSaC2T5fGeqavGWDtk= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:728b:: with SMTP id v11mr2068726qto.373.1602835650943; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 01:07:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> <1d816d82-c62b-c4cb-9336-702d1a317103@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1d816d82-c62b-c4cb-9336-702d1a317103@gmail.com> From: Matthew Wild Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:07:19 +0100 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:07:34 -0000 Hi Brian, Thanks for the feedback! On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 00:58, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > First comment is that when I connected to https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org to= create an account, with Gajim already installed, the "open the app" button= didn't work. > > It seems that installing Gajim back when this laptop was new didn't autom= atically set the association with xmpp: in Firefox. Setting it manually see= ms to be very obscure if at all possible. May I ask what version of Gajim you have installed? Secondly, yes, we should probably remove the "open the app" button, and probably change the text on the "Install" buttons to "Select". The correct flow would be to select Gajim from the software list (even if you have it installed already), it will then guide you through setting up your account with instructions tailored for Gajim. Only a select number of clients are currently compatible with the generic "Open the app" button on the first page, but based on feedback a lot of people with existing installations are drawn to clicking it. It is unfortunately impossible for the web page to know whether it is compatible with your software or not, so it's probably better to remove it and guide people through the software-specific setup instead. > OK, so I went the manual account creation route. I'm becarpenter@xmpp-tri= al1.ietf.org if anybody cares. It would be good if the invite pages suggest= ed a test chat room to try. I believe an up-to-date version of Gajim (and other modern clients) should have automatically joined the hallway room, but I'll double-check this is working correctly. > I've managed to join hallway@jabber.ietf.org but my test messages seem to= have vanished into a gravitational singularity, ditto a 1:1 message to som= eone else in the room. However, when I rejoin the room as becarpenter@jabbe= r.org, I can see those messages were in fact displayed. That is a weird issue. I can only suggest making sure that your Gajim is up to date, but I shall definitely double-check this is working as expected. > So right now jabber.org seems to work better than xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. It's great that you have an account there, you must have had it a while! jabber.org doesn't currently have open registration so isn't an option for most people. Of course if people do have existing working accounts on other servers, federation means there is not a great need to set up an additional account on the trial server. Thanks again for your feedback! Regards, Matthew From nobody Sat Oct 17 20:29:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996563A138F for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:29:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8xRJIz_0wyM for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DDA23A138E for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id r10so3893291pgb.10 for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:29:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JqsCxDHc0D4zSB+IyxnkztSxq18MiIMe2DSOnxiUrpo=; b=kCfctuGbexqnArTs6F6qwbb40TmBhtnMQi1x+RAV0JD7/pV8LToP3DztV68aTl/DnY 8efZSacj24qmlLgt1FvW3VuZQDIqdeMev7n6y3OMS7dKeuCJ2nM2EAEG8FGdGUk1RvQM obLwKD+SFOe51lZLc9gyxOuGOEfPlTTjx1qsXCNgEqx7SAYJy7fa+MhFW+4+nyGdBoYK W6MH1TR1bu90oDhgmR776Bsm04bBEZeRt4gVddilM1D5jveL7YgMHEGFA8t8iyRY6MXs QvuMSSVKxxVc90Z7j7NE66xkzC31mqREfwdNreYInmGa4ej5SIrdpuLw/mF8imZ614+R 9F6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JqsCxDHc0D4zSB+IyxnkztSxq18MiIMe2DSOnxiUrpo=; b=LI1vbEmfJHjRmNq/oualcBqXMwOcW0BJGWaC/Rrt3bjDBptPH3ofG1BECeV6sEz+A9 kTi2OKs4xYR3HB/sx/lhcqqq7dO/SQaK0cbA3GM4oucA1qd3RT6td0a25BPgOufoPWUu mN16sC6V2qw3vSKImzV6Oq1gnZTxSdmcVGli+O9xD8R0uX0bfc26YVOM5JEH+nTx0Des aSHtxCFMtYcQNsgOwU8vTh6hkfUGT2QtU+Xhoc3ZWnWdPx00X+rn7hkLPcxpEMHjodcj YD+yKtr+/mg647wOU+V4NZEDd6Ln8C4N6vU61k4Z9/AgpHQt3g91NgMSZutrVWwJs/+e /XYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531obD1Cig0ZmRQXAGUpLSm8BqUGtZQeQ1A3a8Llhkd2rsvqjRa8 iNyV4pVJPOZp8Jij9sKGZC1bwEoPp7a6Mg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyZHCKzpis0bL2I5KU5X06HfMZnFlUzbs3pTaVS6fVAqw19VQgIPf+wF+pKzFtb/rRUzeJkQA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:910c:0:b029:13e:d13d:a07b with SMTP id 12-20020aa7910c0000b029013ed13da07bmr11143944pfh.18.1602991776325; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.132.159]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m4sm6831128pgv.87.2020.10.17.20.29.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:29:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Matthew Wild Cc: Tools Team Discussion References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> <1d816d82-c62b-c4cb-9336-702d1a317103@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 16:29:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 03:29:39 -0000 Yes, I updated Gajim to version 1.2.2 and things seem to be working better. I can join the hallway twice with my two diferent IDs (jabber.org and xmpp-trial1), and talk to myself. That's about all I can hope for on Sunday afternoon in NZ. Personally I've always found jabber pretty reliable since somebody advised me to use Gajim, so I'm not inclined to spend effort on testing alternatives. What's a bit sad is that almost all of the ~80 jabber contacts I have accumulated over the years now appear to be permanently off line (even allowing for my time zone). Thanks Brian On 16-Oct-20 21:07, Matthew Wild wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Thanks for the feedback! > > On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 00:58, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> >> First comment is that when I connected to https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org to create an account, with Gajim already installed, the "open the app" button didn't work. >> >> It seems that installing Gajim back when this laptop was new didn't automatically set the association with xmpp: in Firefox. Setting it manually seems to be very obscure if at all possible. > > May I ask what version of Gajim you have installed? > > Secondly, yes, we should probably remove the "open the app" button, > and probably change the text on the "Install" buttons to "Select". The > correct flow would be to select Gajim from the software list (even if > you have it installed already), it will then guide you through setting > up your account with instructions tailored for Gajim. > > Only a select number of clients are currently compatible with the > generic "Open the app" button on the first page, but based on feedback > a lot of people with existing installations are drawn to clicking it. > It is unfortunately impossible for the web page to know whether it is > compatible with your software or not, so it's probably better to > remove it and guide people through the software-specific setup > instead. > >> OK, so I went the manual account creation route. I'm becarpenter@xmpp-trial1.ietf.org if anybody cares. It would be good if the invite pages suggested a test chat room to try. > > I believe an up-to-date version of Gajim (and other modern clients) > should have automatically joined the hallway room, but I'll > double-check this is working correctly. > >> I've managed to join hallway@jabber.ietf.org but my test messages seem to have vanished into a gravitational singularity, ditto a 1:1 message to someone else in the room. However, when I rejoin the room as becarpenter@jabber.org, I can see those messages were in fact displayed. > > That is a weird issue. I can only suggest making sure that your Gajim > is up to date, but I shall definitely double-check this is working as > expected. > >> So right now jabber.org seems to work better than xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. > > It's great that you have an account there, you must have had it a > while! jabber.org doesn't currently have open registration so isn't an > option for most people. Of course if people do have existing working > accounts on other servers, federation means there is not a great need > to set up an additional account on the trial server. > > Thanks again for your feedback! > > Regards, > Matthew > From nobody Sun Oct 18 18:59:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FED03A1216 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=ZBPiRTcT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=LzqpTW9d Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EyTtN4PCTAF1 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 146993A1215 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A535C0097 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:59:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=OgIZu0eXmfm54tayM4is0aGsY35b37AKf52Qi4wkFIM=; b=ZBPiRTcT Ix++0oNkI5Zn7aCRjrRvpdgsZIUZ73S9b/UngrlT6sA03YWboKNCks68cqjJ30Mb 2Icv53uxUCxgF7EELPB8uBDCeIGYoHmJ+NcxERsLNXrqTGIf+yS8QFPYvtp215LJ 9vrznYb7ETHo5BIOx1DYw/xiAAxxGwB9dw6s5/KRImsHplxta429ZCCmkcdekqtO bdbf2ocp/y6ji2AqaWroP6jchjdJI3BN2coarNVWovB4slXI5t3euKoJRon377Hn bVDwd9UvqDerRI2/qZyEsrhMXAyoFu3Yk0V/jr3f1ZshvhYPuiMLQgxJ1KT1OrQA s4BsDkcEGmFFoA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=OgIZu0eXmfm54tayM4is0aGsY35b3 7AKf52Qi4wkFIM=; b=LzqpTW9dD1+d5WgFIIjPJEt0r//B5yMbmFnkhETadMSZJ Vaikf9ZCQFJKkLyX73GyiameOYh9kOTrIpQp7QfXcMW4bqM6f3Fjj2EBTa7bRbS7 uwHoXqcR6c6XpM9B+zUYfjyCkvvtnEiwOlThX0iVieGt5vIclGgCRotOlX956WO5 5v0OISYWgCPlgN9REz8aaE6SAvuWhUeKZuPGh+HrvuX7QyCHawSAyUQpwMMDesx9 a2uCUEjlgfmHsEUVCbHnU9UcvXZQMuFkkOrVYOLjUCn8fZfVy9c/qOvj2BuaRNQN xeWHo7wkvXvO3rV47b2c2IkzVPPBnKvaeoOnGAw3w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrjedtgdehfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesthdtredtre ertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghn thhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfehieeggfeileekhfdthfdtff egjeffvdekudffgfeltddujefhieeihffhveegnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhr ghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmth eslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 32714201EA; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:59:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-489-gf39678d-fm-20201011.001-gf39678d0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:58:44 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 01:59:07 -0000 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.1145/357401.357402.xml returns 404. It did not used to. https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.6028_NIST.FIPS.180-4.xml is fine. I've come to rely on this mechanism for citing documents, but it isn't good if it isn't reliable. Some better information about how this operates would be great. From nobody Sun Oct 18 20:10:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577043A126E for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:10:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=H+nvfgtc; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=kCzBzCEY Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPWQmrvRraso for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF7913A1269 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A90B5C0079 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:10:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=dBjyMaeWpH6U4B0bKIeeZ1IiIafmyir TBY5bCuJyFxU=; b=H+nvfgtcOXwG6XMY2kFPefKIjgXSUQDd/IHoc3iUrpqqnaJ oCZNm7jkDF5EV6//XRBuM5exjn5oqQQYo2iIywwke1FlPFpF01a5QESYPnOkRX6N nPjxY/cu+b/ZeD7n167iFeIPkTk0UvdAa/fI3Kqzyn8QPdmm3WsftnTAgnElR0wj 8EAFg9sfH9OMLASFaTIWsGM+aeVDMTR3w4wRpfOb4F5f67g7FrInrSRdHnRrysiN 4QQLudpQYSbbU3NAbR7YG8OjQ7eFJiD50VXqu5N8pq9iJ2CUxODDE0f2naWeTp4X jq+gSbS9IeRLSn8gFWHIH7O1EcLUF4i4zv58ptA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=dBjyMa eWpH6U4B0bKIeeZ1IiIafmyirTBY5bCuJyFxU=; b=kCzBzCEY+dK8805eo3OHEW p43o49FAydY//HRlj9Tzn7xhTBcSiIuMBeEAwhkv/wbzC7n/2Jxl6kYcWn+F1QR9 oDODyftvv7WJh0ivcfVmoZBjNOtDSDKbywaS+MY/eQ7sIPxktNJcyD1xchvmfQeC aQ4fVPr+Y+o/jfFKGXgADVzP9mhxjgmdnpuamfPej4E6oKXH20AWFBYF17URX5Qw u1K3q69lsxn+FE5DlgSCoA0MFeevDum8Lyzh7sJmAKCDjT1pr1Y1tuhqVt02Hy3I +CPU3S3QGMUvKxCrjEfMU9d9FstcQGeNnaJJPajKlbcOQuaWwVFaKTuMzmsY9IVg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrjedtgdeikecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfeitddtveeihfejjefgve efuedugffgkeevkeehueeggeelveekveektdfhueeinecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdr ohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id B9C4C201EA; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:10:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-489-gf39678d-fm-20201011.001-gf39678d0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 14:10:20 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 03:10:43 -0000 As someone pointed out to me, this is now working again. The original question stands. On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, at 12:58, Martin Thomson wrote: > https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.1145/357401.357402.xml returns 404. It did not used to. > > https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.6028_NIST.FIPS.180-4.xml is fine. > > I've come to rely on this mechanism for citing documents, but it isn't > good if it isn't reliable. Some better information about how this > operates would be great. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Sun Oct 18 22:39:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9D93A1394 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:39:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 95iAtquln_PD for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F7D3A1393 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CF5DV2WhnzyYs; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 07:39:38 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 07:39:37 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624778777.769052-06db6d771593b65ac1b79d23757f31dd Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <51FF31EC-14A2-40C5-BE66-A9B57552EE9B@tzi.org> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:39:44 -0000 On 2020-10-19, at 03:58, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > I've come to rely on this mechanism for citing documents, but it isn't = good if it isn't reliable. Some better information about how this = operates would be great. As far as I understand, the DOI bibxml is based on the doilit tool that = is part of kramdown-rfc2629 (which in turn is using = https://dx.doi.org/). A 24-h cache helps keeping the load down but the = data reasonably fresh. As far as I can see, all kinds of errors are = mapped to 404. One tweak that can help coping with doi.org outages might be keeping the = cache indefinitely. Freshness could still be achieved by *trying* to = get a refresh after 24 h, but keeping the cached value in place if that = fails for some reason. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Oct 18 23:19:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF863A0EB5 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:19:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=SDkavsyZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=QrG5Z7HI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZGl02mZ0wVL9 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A6813A13F9 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810C95C00E6; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 02:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Oct 2020 02:19:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=3hbh3vRwxtldwXpN5o0YwnT8xlJb I0JGKRzhOJ079L4=; b=SDkavsyZR9SqeobC5kX87aLwhuUbGI8dvrNAfGB3Teea Meg4G96xj6IGGJfoXFr6cPCCvGh1z6xHszxLG2oegq6kMp8FgwTY5/tsZUzwoRQ+ Ose/Qp6jT7wcWU/4i0KFdVg2VXN36S/gHDnT1JRV7KmUSPSy05/zR/zjc/+sODVJ wNTBg+qBRkOIhAd571lvm3qpVp2eO+Pv9A4WVoafQuaaJC52vMPc30608bYys+LW ikLw9x45AEKV2pJ1bHmFuLdrq2j0DlDC3E+MSugCIFdHF3PLoz+r/QO0fEJeC2f/ SghqeGBclLtED0kgYxtSRpLaLofVoHm3r0izR8vKpQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=3hbh3v RwxtldwXpN5o0YwnT8xlJbI0JGKRzhOJ079L4=; b=QrG5Z7HI15wOUV54Y1wqDU N6o9/A6nC6kEN9r1E04Zuez+/QJGposAjnRI+96RXZkaVSFBxwBg/5Kk9eXNk5rK rKdtrhayiMRTSHw5xrHeAMOvq3btUXKE/PmGTpOAFe+ELmEz5j1pviwFLOMJwcWN 7xA4DqP4u8MdOZwoVQZgFo8QkBUKpe28RgOF1X5B1i0/AhGttCzWceKlAn9ZU3iw oZs9h4EkQKjLelVXxpVFo7BkWRnjaTSsjA+npIGA5j/XBxin1u0rCHyXnlokAe3Y I+cvcEti22NirPAyDJFAboRO/ojCugFdCb7htYDcfcssJabruE2slW8kI2bda1Gw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrjedtgddutdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffeiveejgeeijefghfduuefffeeugfefteduhfelheeitedugeej jeejvefhkeeinecuffhomhgrihhnpeguohhirdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgv th X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id D2BAE20093; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 02:19:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-489-gf39678d-fm-20201011.001-gf39678d0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1c73edad-56f1-4eda-a835-db593c316968@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51FF31EC-14A2-40C5-BE66-A9B57552EE9B@tzi.org> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <51FF31EC-14A2-40C5-BE66-A9B57552EE9B@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:19:34 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:19:58 -0000 On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, at 16:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-10-19, at 03:58, Martin Thomson wrote: > > > > I've come to rely on this mechanism for citing documents, but it isn't good if it isn't reliable. Some better information about how this operates would be great. > > As far as I understand, the DOI bibxml is based on the doilit tool that > is part of kramdown-rfc2629 (which in turn is using > https://dx.doi.org/). A 24-h cache helps keeping the load down but the > data reasonably fresh. As far as I can see, all kinds of errors are > mapped to 404. > > One tweak that can help coping with doi.org outages might be keeping > the cache indefinitely. Freshness could still be achieved by *trying* > to get a refresh after 24 h, but keeping the cached value in place if > that fails for some reason. That seems like a reasonable enhancement. These outages are far to frequent for my liking. This is hardly the first occurrence. You can tune the timeout right down at the same time; these rarely change and anyone who uses these often (through CI, for instance) will ensure that they are kept fresh enough. (stale-while-revalidate...) You might need to consider whether or not the cache needs an occasional flush to avoid unbounded accumulation of old entries. From nobody Sun Oct 18 23:45:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95C93A1427 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fNvd3pJpEuD for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E6F73A1422 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CF6gz4z6GzyQD; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:45:03 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1c73edad-56f1-4eda-a835-db593c316968@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:45:03 +0200 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624782703.044178-151b701f1840aba6742775c6c47de19a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3AE5D3DB-0B5E-4D90-A397-1A06D4772712@tzi.org> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <51FF31EC-14A2-40C5-BE66-A9B57552EE9B@tzi.org> <1c73edad-56f1-4eda-a835-db593c316968@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:45:09 -0000 > On 2020-10-19, at 08:19, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, at 16:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2020-10-19, at 03:58, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>=20 >>> I've come to rely on this mechanism for citing documents, but it = isn't good if it isn't reliable. Some better information about how this = operates would be great. >>=20 >> As far as I understand, the DOI bibxml is based on the doilit tool = that=20 >> is part of kramdown-rfc2629 (which in turn is using=20 >> https://dx.doi.org/). A 24-h cache helps keeping the load down but = the=20 >> data reasonably fresh. As far as I can see, all kinds of errors are=20= >> mapped to 404. >>=20 >> One tweak that can help coping with doi.org outages might be keeping=20= >> the cache indefinitely. Freshness could still be achieved by = *trying*=20 >> to get a refresh after 24 h, but keeping the cached value in place if=20= >> that fails for some reason. >=20 > That seems like a reasonable enhancement. These outages are far to = frequent for my liking. This is hardly the first occurrence. Indeed, the reason kramdown-rfc doesn=E2=80=99t do the processing = entirely on its own was to take advantage of the cache at ietf.org to = improve availability. > You can tune the timeout right down at the same time; these rarely = change and anyone who uses these often (through CI, for instance) will = ensure that they are kept fresh enough. (stale-while-revalidate...) Exactly. > You might need to consider whether or not the cache needs an = occasional flush to avoid unbounded accumulation of old entries. I don=E2=80=99t think so; the number of DOIs in existence is = sufficiently limited (unless we try to do negative caching, but I see no = point in that). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Oct 18 23:47:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4DD3A1429 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 178oddn7Y12V for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 064EF3A1428 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CF6kC1tDKzybx; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:46:59 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <51FF31EC-14A2-40C5-BE66-A9B57552EE9B@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:46:58 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624782818.595356-73a287f18fb4b679f0ee90631f8c701c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <51FF31EC-14A2-40C5-BE66-A9B57552EE9B@tzi.org> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:47:03 -0000 On 2020-10-19, at 07:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > As far as I understand, the DOI bibxml is based on the doilit tool = that is part of kramdown-rfc2629 (which in turn is using = https://dx.doi.org/). A 24-h cache helps keeping the load down but the = data reasonably fresh. As far as I can see, all kinds of errors are = mapped to 404. (Which, I forgot to say, means that the answer to the question in the = subject is to run the doilit tool locally for extended diagnostics.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 19 07:57:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021443A00D2 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 07:57:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4lG30lDewP-K for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 07:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 438F73A005E for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 07:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554C638994; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id R0NaveKSM1Ov; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854DC38993; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2517C976; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Martin Thomson" , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 14:57:30 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin Thomson wrote: > As someone pointed out to me, this is now working again. The original > question stands. 10.1145 works for me today using the link you listed. I had the same problem last weekend. Very annoying. I could wget things from /rfc/bibxml/FOO, but not /rfc/bibxmlX/FOO. How do you typically use the URLs? In ENTITY statements, via https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.11= 45/357401.357402.xml > returns 404. It did not used to. At this point, xmlrfc.ietf.org redirects to xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org. I thought that we were trying to bring tools into secretariat supported hosts, and this certainly seems like low hanging fruit. >> >> https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.6= 028_NIST.FIPS.180-4.xml is fine. >> >> I've come to rely on this mechanism for citing documents, but it isn= 't >> good if it isn't reliable. Some better information about how this >> operates would be great. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+NqVMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXhMAf/YyhQcALwd6wDmjz8TqbR2KqTlZxvjvI59pjhmrB9/tcyPfrFv79kG446 7ZZ7plqOx6I1pBLhjtlksSy6MvWANoiU8cRu+B9v6Be0xVmWs3egz+vVL2AB8YHy DQE8WgmOfvZJWIL4lkE7mpbBo1kEIt9FxpOz10GXxFq29xzQUuDmM6GTaCCRMK4F 1/ybyQp0QEDT88Bh0YdRY8WG9T7cv/QfIIocoQAV2jPKRuOQSWITvee4PnFnXi/V +9cWfIafI+Qu7XFw/j2Q3W7DYa1faMkJby36X9f65f78mhUSJ05e130EsfB01lmT SY7hQZTUSFbvq1kbXdYkjsUNNf97Lg== =FRc/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 19 08:57:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F289C3A0B79 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:57:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iwjg9MMVVdky for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4EB83A0B76 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CFLxN3Q2Gzyqm; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:57:28 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <32564.1603119444@localhost> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:57:28 +0200 Cc: Martin Thomson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624815847.877189-72cf8cae51501d441d901116f12c0418 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <92AD3650-5615-4F0A-9248-5772FE323996@tzi.org> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 15:57:35 -0000 >=20 > How do you typically use the URLs? > In ENTITY statements, via I think that ENTITY statements are the least portable, and should be > discouraged to the point of having warnings from xml2rfc. Kramdown-rfc has two modes: It can generate entity declarations and entity references (stand_alone: = false =E2=80=94 the default), relying on xml2rfc to do the insertions. It can simply insert the referenced items itself (stand_alone: true). stand_alone: true is the preferred setting, as kramdown-rfc can do some = gymnastics on the anchors; not all kramdown-rfc features work with = entity declarations and references. xml2rfc can also do resolution via PIs and via xinclude elements; = kramdown-rfc cannot generate these two syntaxes (but of course you can = type in the XML). > Given that the contents are are static and are rsync'able, and I don't = see > why they shouldn't be replicated widely. =20 Replicating =E2=80=9Cthey=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work for DOI = references, as anybody can bring a new DOI and bibxml7 automatically = builds the bibliography information from the doi.org. The cache for that lives in /var/tmp/doi-cache, which cannot be rsynced = from the bibxml server. (Except for the IANA references in bibxml8, which are also = auto-generated and held in /var/tmp/iana-cache, the rest of bibxml can = be.) I sometimes copy reference files from my rsync copy to ~/.cache/xml2rfc = (I also tell kramdown-rfc to use the same cache via export KRAMDOWN_REFCACHEDIR=3D/Users/cabo/.cache/xml2rfc > An annoyance is that xml2rfc won't > use the local copy if the network copy returns 404, unless you specify = --no-network, > which naturally only works if you already have *all* the references. I=E2=80=99m not sure about xml2rfc=E2=80=99s cache behavior. With kramdown-rfc, existing cache files, even if stale, will be used = after a refresh timeout. With KRAMDOWN_OFFLINE, kramdown-rfc will generate dummy references for = you if there are no cache files, which can be great if you want to = submit and are just held up by a missing reference. > You can set $XML_LIBRARY to a path, and I think also set it to a URL. > At least you could, but I don't know if I've done this lately. >=20 > I also see, but maybe this doesn't do what I think: > --rfc-base-url RFC_BASE_URL > Base URL for RFC links > --id-base-url ID_BASE_URL > Base URL for Internet-Draft links > --rfc-reference-base-url RFC_REFERENCE_BASE_URL > Base URL for RFC reference targets, replacing = the > target=3D"..." value given in the reference = entry > --id-reference-base-url ID_REFERENCE_BASE_URL > Base URL for I-D reference targets (I think I need to document the equivalent kramdown-rfc parameters = XML_RESOURCE_ORG_HOST and XML_RESOURCE_ORG_PREFIX.) Kramdown-rfc cannot get the I-Ds from a different place than the other = references; with the datatracker support for I-D bibxml, this is one of = the next features to be put in. >> = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml7/reference.DOI.10.1145/35= 7401.357402.xml >> returns 404. It did not used to. >=20 > At this point, xmlrfc.ietf.org redirects to xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org. The redirect would be another SPOF=E2=80=A6 Therefore the default parameters in kramdown-rfc are: XML_RESOURCE_ORG_HOST: "xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org=E2=80=9D XML_RESOURCE_ORG_PREFIX: "https://#{XML_RESOURCE_ORG_HOST}/public/rfc" > I thought that we were trying to bring tools into secretariat = supported > hosts, and this certainly seems like low hanging fruit. As soon as this actually is secretariat supported software, that = certainly will make sense. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 19 09:18:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84D53A0BBA for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xVzRYAFX4q8b for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9B503A0BB1 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603124288; bh=G46t4q75w2TB4gZqlDMZ8hJkWP4dTBooOggNl0YYQ4o=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=d/CSV1EdgBlzo6gJp35Pquay/2RuWxSKqcUZUHegGNb0v7UTwFGIF7oaA6O8NelTP YqfGzQvxsidcz/oXV7ATOSrdxg9Z31qCjtCY8Xn4CoGmaJVnruy6flkfirywZjPntW Mt/yU/fQrS6rVlAzuncC1Nt7PTBksaPwINQ/ercg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.157.37]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MiJVG-1jz2bG2K9e-00fSaH for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:18:08 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:18:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32564.1603119444@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4ZskasTp7Rj2+0L6YQMV44sNlam6qkSUzvXD/USixWW+bJdDPvh AGJLXKB956X7p+tWgPObHZdcjUDMvLC/49K+ZewBk0OJGUkLPE14RsYFcqZc3kERNTUe8d/ IGqYJS20gJvX6kr8iuZT6DE+RzpI8SYTVZLDZnV88B0cmfLG5ND6pnkdmvAA2wY+NTi963f joCFyr98KerCRIy44/3Xg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:WyJMEsI3Ylc=:K2mnnTp14AeFkMciBKPkyz K3VcFpBx1QyozxJc9mYGj4lKcSnDKc4FE/kULCBIa7QTe3PGHEsFCmye2rYmBwiFdi8KdVAu4 gNSk0CTpxGYXYhQgEK1554zYXYgPcboz6im9R53OalLfZo17b0HP1HDn5e0GLvIGM0+pQIrEy X1CghEWP7XgVDxpaVR+ZRhvXBytumrX5sokuNlVaqYbuhiWECl4JMRGMdx+VWr6vAUhF8y/NW drA9dLPuRfIYrdxwP7W+XHKD7R98+hzb0mgf8dj/cw3qQvGZymMrSTYGGjRQaa9Pwm66/DwNn 6ACVfr0eR58EV3K3BL1lI36da20Pd9eRQH8Crfzfz/80hlPSIT33CgVUGhZY5fa69h0jbEaCw zyvbZFQ5jEk7QZ62Ye8LKceN57nSm41VZSRbdjzuMwPjegfo083IRY2Wy3pY3YhQR/6hOEDA2 3gM3/DW4Ob93xfnI9d2cTaQxcmgOBhHZGC3inlo/15Ii/yfhQM2eqTDicUbDa1zt+7AWtSEMl 8d0sAHZWqAy/RiiAgtoa3gVYwVyJSherti90pJI5WUFznOEeMLBFU4ERTGee3jzVbhirpnynz VFgvdyjSiyAV+LYKI8b7S/pPMVo8QTLz0KoCbFKXg2uM6eC+pO8Sm483iIFqeERcizaf1rkGE IX164zMn9+08d6hi/LKj8BJ7cysUZvyovucbateK/GtIp19n1nO76KqIuIVpNBMquGdYtByLQ 8TV4SCekwf1Jh3DdjrYj9oNDxj7eB7eh2gvJWKD/eMoJLQEx6umTsE3GerS1IB8yo+HvybLee yUD+k1FFrFZzwuFdlNn/AtCW5Cek1oF7nBdPkL/ka0dvsP8mk3cRzFm1UclmWJF5gDt1aMrLV DjC47qyUiaZy5MycDQtg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:18:13 -0000 Am 19.10.2020 um 16:57 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > Martin Thomson wrote: > > As someone pointed out to me, this is now working again. The ori= ginal > > question stands. > > 10.1145 works for me today using the link you listed. > I had the same problem last weekend. Very annoying. > I could wget things from /rfc/bibxml/FOO, but not /rfc/bibxmlX/FOO. > > How do you typically use the URLs? > In ENTITY statements, via I think that ENTITY statements are the least portable, and should be > discouraged to the point of having warnings from xml2rfc. > ... How so? They are an integral part of XML. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Oct 19 10:40:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C693A0EB9 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqfgDEz7cM9G for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8542D3A09FF for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1212A38992; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id d-mfj2kXsRN2; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A5E38990; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9A9715; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:40:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:40:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Julian Reschke wrote: >> Martin Thomson wrote: >> > As someone pointed out to me, this is now working again. The orig= inal >> > question stands. >> >> 10.1145 works for me today using the link you listed. >> I had the same problem last weekend. Very annoying. >> I could wget things from /rfc/bibxml/FOO, but not /rfc/bibxmlX/FOO. >> >> How do you typically use the URLs? >> In ENTITY statements, via > I think that ENTITY statements are the least portable, and should be >> discouraged to the point of having warnings from xml2rfc. >> ... > How so? They are an integral part of XML. If you use a specific URL, then it needs to be alive. While many of the other abstractions can be retrieved from a variety of sources and can be easily cached. I suspect that there are smarter things you can put into the ENTITY, I don't know how to do it, and I think neither do many other people. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+Nz6EACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUSTgf+PbflmxHBHC4EhgtmMHt9KciDr/E1pIHYYseZd1yiX7reuac8R5Fajuto znIj11mMLqmjbWsuzuasD7bgfET9cbf5d/i/z5ZERwbYyD73lMPK1hn9dQAkGcX7 oglHVFu4Y4C/Gdra68LFiZFgwFOK2NaaWlKPj5rmErYfUPY0UKqqrj1kECF4y1An ngI4cOjGWGL8e8kJd5K7C/kcDBqVw3pMkSm47JfBGLTjnEOTLDrfBvAeaTmcGQ9/ nSmAXvoMtXte8tSva1Pg6UthL3S4ZArQol69u3u73W2gZ4kc6viXKOwPqhkmDcP+ +8sL1+Z6sePT4FOXEhsTUcNyy4vpcw== =xdUP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 19 11:17:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673333A0F0B for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:17:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IzU0luITmqXI for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B14E23A0F0E for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:17:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603131437; bh=4UMdMseFLPDSjN3ftMFOtDnY8AgG8tu6eeA035k2dMs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=bmr+FWSIlf9WnULo6m5FpTNs7486LlBlubOV6ZV5hlI0n5KVjGSjGDs/Mx/7Ygk6/ OI6cRpdWXY6LTNqRb/3/CjWkg7zo1pjd6RXXwL46Fa4KnPWRawjwBnk6OgIyAySW7P dXDWGIHkkVQw7cMadn7BHnDYvQqQqMYuS7wv/yf4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.157.37]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MBDj4-1kaemY3YFS-00CmP0; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:17:17 +0200 To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:17:15 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9568.1603129249@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iMbkgRkZa4dfP+v+OdD3aLBKod94Dk8BDDIfM8jdL8NRyvo2Aan Ctd2KlOUBogndQnV1udOzVRTvR6jmNuDRVgFtmDhdg1M88fWdgUgp73JGrlY5QoEb8+YdsL yJBFdMRXfYs/XPA4gGp69eeTxN4UdNB2AnM3dsPHADJfhqvf9siq64nhy5Z0uNNWxOuVLNv WbHK3ZbAQBNXnOCXADtpw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:RaYRMldXyn4=:3qDXPfeWqOa0yH0ILYzsMO w3CkYpL71eqLx/Sqy8603IuXSs8rNFqLX1DRDkcrFHLpyyvD7PKvrn8OC24nB+3wUHFvdWR8D plR3GJwOan+jBF6rTIIlbURATk9Tx5H/n3HVPLtT2hXUisPLS7lfqePfqHIzA0ZU+ofAg0t7/ hePDA1MXMhB5wgcSveJntcWl74bDZEVRjKVDCbKSaUUNK3LlbbuhUmMgAu5n4X09Vvbuw0w1z EjPwnwMioazd/7rf/c9eiMOdhHztkqcH+Q2BhqFShK5ugTfcout9rsMVx4mcQM4+Z8uUAfm7Y C1sBiXWFZ2vlS9/cZ2j2IqITOdDF3oyqCPNq3ovdcL1WKQqy+4jyZ/8wevhOTJS2QVsDZWIdm QH5YiqN6y6W7lqdLUGkUav5jqf9P73SWVJsAmV4Dn8gbzRrzALKz4UoMHK5jwYaU5E/wW+hKd 7IjIwU0o1WZJi5kFxPXKTccsd+0SQRuXm2zDJ7m8/paJLzPjaVOGKBwT2s9UV0IcGcu8GWWfL c4D0REcepNNIbw8esl4j9HLxJPVCB+wQsge6YVrNpxBXh0b/JzWE5mb+j1Fk70ci5ULQQpopy PRKdoloNsRxuo/HfnSWGoBGcdlPtsVJPNJnpNXp1lr5PFte339SXlpddF3pfdgLii7obA0WH2 FSKP1wCHNl5R4AvToD8NPlDjjxTRv6wPreZqaRoglRDoCeoN27teYgVgdSVoi9eD3xROViEQu arEimX1fdm0/5odD/2ycyvr99u3NiurpWZNWgSNFNOyyig/WVt41Tl9EnfcOf2nu9b9Ja1BMG 9Rg9tegmx58lJ67OdyIvjRKbSNjqxNLP5Vdqfws8KhVruaMFI2e04Lolz9QonyTN4scpQE37V jOz2SDFot0WwPkGvUIUw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:17:25 -0000 Am 19.10.2020 um 19:40 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > Julian Reschke wrote: > >> Martin Thomson wrote: > >> > As someone pointed out to me, this is now working again. The = original > >> > question stands. > >> > >> 10.1145 works for me today using the link you listed. > >> I had the same problem last weekend. Very annoying. > >> I could wget things from /rfc/bibxml/FOO, but not /rfc/bibxmlX/F= OO. > >> > >> How do you typically use the URLs? > >> In ENTITY statements, via >> I think that ENTITY statements are the least portable, and shoul= d be > >> discouraged to the point of having warnings from xml2rfc. > >> ... > > > How so? They are an integral part of XML. > > If you use a specific URL, then it needs to be alive. Yes. But I would call that "robustness", not "portability". > While many of the other abstractions can be retrieved from a variety of > sources and can be easily cached. Hmm, no. All the ones that are defined for xml2rfc v3 need a full URI, and all of them can be cached. > ... Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Oct 19 11:51:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E773A0FC1 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7av96iM7Li4E for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B11FF3A011B for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CFQnx4gDyzyRg; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:51:17 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:51:17 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624826276.8257329-81a94e7d6e50b587ee35c409fc5879e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:51:22 -0000 On 2020-10-19, at 20:17, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > All the ones that are defined for xml2rfc v3 need a full URI, =E2=80=A6 which can get in the way of implementing more robustness in = the tools for many-sourced information. (Until we define special URIs for that=E2=80=A6) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 19 12:38:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9D43A0114 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xWuOwiYo9Ksx for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 593053A0112 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:38:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603136303; bh=Ilyk6ss/L1aPJROYZzkeIK1UejZy2PQJ3aBpvUB3iXw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Pp++GWRgjINSFpmnyoVdjYXoMGSqzMJmtx9ptQMdmgJQE3DmYcaagR6Ur+X/8x0Rz 4h+oBeNCch0qzCoIkq6k2/a80tkF8GICKgwJQ24DDoD6CGg5cXL/tL+x99GJuslOVC ZyJcIWBX2eHteCNm3BNd+98SqJ5cOx+JNumbSaIM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.157.37]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MeCpb-1juR9U2gGF-00bNH2; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:38:23 +0200 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:38:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:If4tvrPVoXegpvdjKnO2A9OCwVQaj3SxsSNvrRNB60gEOO8m3er VJFTv3vFhrBKreVScuAO7rCKW44k8eITQVYISIC3rfDOxz6WMcU6QQ4lg893yqfk/z4diPA dU+7NNdJwwpJxUzhWHywVbxbcTOhEuaqeyZpa+zlf2M78csVO5mOuSs3xFTNNUZX/BZiIxA 4sqtsUq9KnbhtH7gp21jQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Odd3HVop5es=:Pp3qTaAGQ1jILW35UWbZ5x q7GkdFD2Ey/BsO35sfWczkRB8D+ebS4osCdYf8Nz57SjU9jeZWlsFvF9Hl+3CQtETFHUPFtwo XjkwV6NHzQ6pvxpxOK2v8L/5hUGWHFMSZnim3HLD8gqlk+TbCeiPdHpmPvH/B1VjxqjXGb0gy Q3t21PJLP7gjZGFyADAMg/6YUW+M5J0W/g8825ifzFS6WptPktamhdWDwtmaGWDo4yqv6YuF+ TP8XC2BKrATZTQrLp40sfVGivVJ9eCRkvnFb2lNO7l4hqRASwy90f3Mcq/8VCeVU2jay3jn5u PWbkGCOCPEzIeSBQhBJbO715ZWV9GoC3EBY1m3VIwe4wHGuc5bTm9TkmazHzfMJEMnJoxilQM Oo7QTjrd3iva3T1KO4LHYF0Wj9Fthu92aJP63glpG1i6ZsUPdgbQjp8SEYByxItsLH1+iRniD CCFtU5wY0e/qdTM9e/fmZk25W971bS9KGlhHQnT8HOWSzXVbrOPOIzuduVsBDG6vGzxx29hni Tzm4XRaK21xIMnb3+/iUFKFs5U7QtrQXjtdqLeZfuf5VLoNyOoraT80lqnLMY00Q39Imy0vD1 s3sZFHXFfBmb/6pw8GKNLn/eEzJ82Xcp3ntiSGDkCvQ85IcCFbJ9+vmj1dLXMklQ/NMR/mz26 zJYq1xRfEZG3IPMdxnzO5GhwbbF522x7nIe61hjpvzCq+LMTuCbQ/eh+BnhjJftWCfqTDOj+M g22kjqpGMFsLAH6A5AxwtcsKylO5OjeZtGlpxXgeslhkSE3GTJliTVc4hDuc3EqqHycfoeeOf SLmWG4CmiTTfs/w/i3sWStrp8o2ZP3l2+4e1a6+wwXFI6LCD2UbWmoyKyVao1SgdC6eBFOcXQ BwwdE6b5peke00APXVAw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 19:38:40 -0000 Am 19.10.2020 um 20:51 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 2020-10-19, at 20:17, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> All the ones that are defined for xml2rfc v3 need a full URI, > > =E2=80=A6 which can get in the way of implementing more robustness in th= e tools for many-sourced information. > (Until we define special URIs for that=E2=80=A6) We could do that, or just make sure that the URIs that we use are indeed robust. Or just avoid include-by-reference (my preference). Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Oct 19 12:47:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6124D3A0836 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:46:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oc1U-zdmw4K0 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C9B53A0832 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CFS262KYdzyRg; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:46:54 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:46:53 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624829613.5231889-6e2933770efb400993eea3a19b82605d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <02B52751-3EAB-46D9-B2F4-6ECC93D23ABF@tzi.org> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 19:46:58 -0000 On 2020-10-19, at 21:38, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Or just avoid include-by-reference (my preference). I know that is your preference, but most authors do find a reference = that evaluates to the most current version of the document being = referenced very convenient for their own documents, which tend to live = for several years before being published. (On the publishing side, of course DO avoid include-by-reference, I=E2=80=99= m talking about the authoring side.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 19 13:42:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2743A0A08 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:42:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id izSLjsQMw3tA for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD963A0A49 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7DD38995; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id AC8BEHduKfd3; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F673898E; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06DF976; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:42:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:42:38 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Julian Reschke wrote: >> If you use a specific URL, then it needs to be alive. > Yes. > But I would call that "robustness", not "portability". I plug in and the tool figures out where to get the data. When I do: then I'm being very specific, and if the site breaks, or produces 404s for some reason, then things break for me. (Yes, I have a document with one of each. Too lazy to change) >> While many of the other abstractions can be retrieved from a variety of >> sources and can be easily cached. > Hmm, no. All the ones that are defined for xml2rfc v3 need a full URI, > and all of them can be cached. My dated experience with caching all of bibxml to my laptop so that I could compose on long airplane flights was that the ENTITY mechanism never worked right. That's probably a bug, but and maybe I'm cargo culting, but that's why I've come to prefer X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E59D3A0985 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6akn0CwNvNR for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEC683A0983 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:01:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603166461; bh=To54D+tcGqIpFyUOo1bHtfoGpu24JNyaqjihUdiRifA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=A3zPuwcRptOsZCPpRBf4iZyulTdkvE/cMyKkrM3SPmn/IwZm7CiN0EVRZbQ1Y5ZYk XZ5AnA49I+vdPLMDWGUepS7trDaf0kgwdeOPKE4nnHcw/udGWLlopjfY9QdTUB7mNx kAcF4xXGUO6fsNUB/Tvxf9TKJabsPvi27ZwOqRUM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.154.94]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxDou-1kFPtd2HVY-00xZrT for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:01:01 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> <26473.1603140152@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <9ba7b514-99ff-f828-1610-868d849bfaa1@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:01:01 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26473.1603140152@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Jdbx4M43/gqJKfYCzETaP9or94eB/Dd5DzemFuybrJIfv87A6cP Xd0+xhMeSgoDfk5j45wzwwJXyie7IYpwovEEZoDNSyx1q3Z9heQL+pDe4m+vOiyUClUaZ0v V4cRb7QMppij59k5bWOQNT/RsQma3QUF7P7vSj6NKnhPYBD8fCK2uE0UD8b5n7DvPLV82CS XI7CxptCsXugUw8FwcGDA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:v/s2IGe4/cc=:x6eSI8Vxjlb5X2lsvlKyp3 +rZUTxX/kSyVf/uOBk6whpnrI5/j+2dkj0CnW1ssuEgYk67WSU3sBzarZUjFdBtWTUkjbbRBz dt2ELwKkepWuHuKNvHuXgXTV2+TmH1Dv8Mhrnpdq2Mzi1byN+M3AOvvo1vOQgLzM/5yX0opjz FqlVDLrqyJfzI/NZsR61gOmWhhHpGT9Sb/Mu5phPhY3d1oxsQOVUjURrHPULG4XuHBWQexj/2 mvV26rE2Eoqj0fFAwsbeUJFo8m6VXPuGYVPk/5O2YZQLePa9AnRZ1H5MMEuac7wCQolvwqKyd 3U/OY/Tv54HW5mmnnTWcAFhoKO0SrOAkqnADozsRS2PNZoJ00Eysut3nC90PokIRqYuiQDVM1 FSorq5kJWhf3WAh8KYB2BPQpkWg08PGSToW1AcZEL5zs1b7hUfUDCBBJYzq8D+u0qxVIYRXRy Y9jzhHRzjg08tabydo3SQ2oeqfRYF/ZaKTvaHROPui6yLpys4OHj+S24iMNmaHS2+bCO0Lpnw XST/hdXmRxEQHE0Y8U/e7YGM4eMyMRE8yftEOuZhJtvaZ2rE/OHj1qbkjNVpK5fzlhbQxeySW 5MtyInwZLgyPs2TjynGIuSe6iIoMJ4TqPr1nPHEeAcROz+y7j0CpO99FW1yOnyyC4874I1/OR uYyABd2kRRtIx1jVt1WTJaNCd2tXvj2m4JJQO4rr56k+gKn+2/Qjnw9WyxnigugKQt/nvs243 +vRR798f4Lj9ftp7zS6hwZV54AQVqxQvDJj0YjysG/BsyHRvt3n8bFpP0OAufmQ++D6WQcFyn /bjhgVnY/M7uF9kVKr6V0yJ9zkhuCCfJU49T3rqwqhGopPfmA+WAkgQW4/ICU2xlv+n0j8oto E4nn1kpZ4p994yygHzgQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 04:01:09 -0000 Am 19.10.2020 um 22:42 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > Julian Reschke wrote: > >> If you use a specific URL, then it needs to be alive. > > > Yes. > > > But I would call that "robustness", not "portability". > > I plug in > > > > and the tool figures out where to get the data. But that's not part of the official xml2rfc vocabulary. > When I do: > > > > then I'm being very specific, and if the site breaks, or produces 404s f= or > some reason, then things break for me. The tool *can* cache it the same way. This helps when the site is unreachable, but of course not when it removes the document. Which it should not. We really should have a reliable place for the reference information. I still don't get why we recommended the above URI back in RFC 7749 (I *think* after consuting with the RPC), and now that redirects to tools.ietf.org. > ... Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Oct 19 23:13:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237BF3A1001 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6i3QvCjCiV8i for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B1943A0FFD for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CFjxR5wQrzyVQ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:13:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9ba7b514-99ff-f828-1610-868d849bfaa1@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:13:46 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 624867226.319328-70b44a59bfd60c029986b1162e23ca58 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <488DFAF2-1CD0-4AAC-8A9D-072803042E70@tzi.org> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> <26473.1603140152@localhost> <9ba7b514-99ff-f828-1610-868d849bfaa1@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:13:54 -0000 > On 2020-10-20, at 06:01, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 >> > [=E2=80=A6] > We really should have a reliable place for the reference information. = I > still don't get why we recommended the above URI back in RFC 7749 (I > *think* after consuting with the RPC), and now that redirects to > tools.ietf.org. I don=E2=80=99t think RFC 7749 =E2=80=9Crecommended=E2=80=9D that URI; = it just used a similar URI in an example for declaring and using an = external entity. Kramdown-rfc briefly used xml2rfc.ietf.org; I don=E2=80=99t recollect = exactly why we switched back to xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org as suggested in = RFC 7991; I seem to remember that this was to avoid the redirect from = xml2rfc.ietf.org to xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org and the attendant SPOF and = delay. After all, xml2rfc.ietf.org continues to say 301 Moved = Permanently: $ curl -I = https://xml2rfc.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119.xml HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:02:05 GMT Server: Apache Location: = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119.xml Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 $=20 I believe that the interface to the canned bibliography information = needs to be an integral part of the authoring side of RFCXML, but = tools-discuss is the wrong mailing list for that discussion (or is it?). (Here is the text from RFC 7991 Appendix B.1: The most common way to use is to pull in references that are already formed as XML. Currently, this can be done from xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org, but later this is expected to be from the RFC Editor. I don=E2=80=99t know who owns the authoring side of RFCXML; if it is the = RFC Editor, it might indeed seem logical for this responsibility to rest = with the RPC.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Oct 20 01:11:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06383A0B39 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 01:11:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iEQdOP4jAFUZ for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 01:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E545C3A0B38 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 01:10:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603181448; bh=HeyVKbRcvjKpPvrhcxQR9d0+Vu97qWoQy8j+R5WxDrI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=PNS7tOE3qXNRHEbGYobb9L48ZjFrRMp3SQ5vKFNIcYjztEyEsVvdHL7s2l6pFIXZL +zRiaRgJ4DyiIQ2UZMz/HjTjvFRkul4MVYq5pDQFQk3HiwKb6Z/OAcro4V+6oYA9aU nA9C3Dzj7HOT7UuuQfgyTVGzcjb0cF2LCNz5XC+c= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.154.94]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MjS9C-1k1WSY1WLS-00kxOB; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0200 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> <26473.1603140152@localhost> <9ba7b514-99ff-f828-1610-868d849bfaa1@gmx.de> <488DFAF2-1CD0-4AAC-8A9D-072803042E70@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <522c8471-cbff-9e41-779b-90c13eb37da6@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:10:47 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <488DFAF2-1CD0-4AAC-8A9D-072803042E70@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KzuuQVLY6cudIY/p000k7IAtGhUJxa4D9n2qFW56hPAlRhhnHKa qXuuEw+v3E7eACkouAGYt2He9l/6dLbgjD/trUOD0j7LQYZKwem/Ps0lEyRblcqwG15+iOk 4lrQTITEbNoDa70dp2Qsx7DG9vO6If2vd0ZK7okmg1MbAJrvigBvaS2BRmRVYHfeQsp+3Ig TuR0UTsuQjp3y/yCjhkHw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:KriwbnMaBn0=:+Y3HDuTVs82rquAdr6autu eN34sF5KPSVIiNbJznm6Yesyg30z5I7znD/1jU1DLRApaD9KD+cqBI7s30EvzUTat5OeEMaU5 LEBKd4s3wgu6vrE+LeUKb2/i+jLfMohCnYCDBOCbuOGGZMq7+r4FEwxapShDc8EuRFyuIGu4u DniDxK3UBDh00/I35EqUg5sdjrMgoY8xAOCPZDdwQW+w2+oln4771hdirgA7E8hSieqoSgnNp ZotfnWWGhigbYCrMk+u7NgbpTYJ2iSEK8VgBCJCn+Tyy1tQ4EY2R2dR3kFcJh9rkX82kANQkf vYx2vS9mP/cORa+FevHQ2QtkuYJ/Ps7OWiWGz1P5OnRfOhEeIqShFtN32hvnpTJsb1eGZIxhZ FdbvkfG0jYgoKRI6vnz4CIA9vnox3jGSkLxUZYRzcN8HVNEy7vCHg2f+yDeEZoUK27Zjt94J4 W7j2/OpHsDw6gP1ulNaWAQXPZM++nmjDL0Ut5JUbX4VAEbCYbUAvtMg7TAVaOh6YZTkESVn6H 9uSyo3udtQcMMvmRRifeL2VEsgxtSD28XRMpNm0YaKS3fYnQiER78P/WHtqPzLTYa5MAYkY96 E3BY+cvOIVovIBrO9NpMiNo+WjV1RR45lxpOQuoeNtiidgFZbuBYtrsHIRCk3n/dp2fwAsf/j EJ6hCS/ZFU/Ht5K2ES9TTKsv2iblJ65GgCugPdQU/8U19gqfhE5mwHsHencXYOcIjNWnFn4No 2d7hGH/pRNVrOv/x6o8cuc2f7HvXShLqIzsPt2G/l27lJbTD1tsdfswlRkehpQ7FeJqLCrcDU CVFFRno0NQombZTeFM3g9LPSH47KIxlACBUzEoYy8SPsbpmBYIDPY0N6V7WGIgmvAQf/vlJBt LZnu4ok+0houe1dTLkSA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:11:02 -0000 Am 20.10.2020 um 08:13 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > >> On 2020-10-20, at 06:01, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >>> >> [=E2=80=A6] >> We really should have a reliable place for the reference information. I >> still don't get why we recommended the above URI back in RFC 7749 (I >> *think* after consuting with the RPC), and now that redirects to >> tools.ietf.org. > > I don=E2=80=99t think RFC 7749 =E2=80=9Crecommended=E2=80=9D that URI; i= t just used a similar URI in an example for declaring and using an externa= l entity. That is true. But when we published this, we made sure that this is actually the URI the RPC wanted us to use. > Kramdown-rfc briefly used xml2rfc.ietf.org; I don=E2=80=99t recollect ex= actly why we switched back to xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org as suggested in RFC 7= 991; I seem to remember that this was to avoid the redirect from xml2rfc.i= etf.org to xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org and the attendant SPOF and delay. After= all, xml2rfc.ietf.org continues to say 301 Moved Permanently: Yes. Until recently it was a 302, but I asked to make that a 301 so the response can be cached more agressively. > $ curl -I https://xml2rfc.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119.= xml > HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:02:05 GMT > Server: Apache > Location: https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC= .2119.xml > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > $ > > I believe that the interface to the canned bibliography information need= s to be an integral part of the authoring side of RFCXML, but tools-discus= s is the wrong mailing list for that discussion (or is it?). > > (Here is the text from RFC 7991 Appendix B.1: > > The most common way to use is to pull in references tha= t > are already formed as XML. Currently, this can be done from > xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org, but later this is expected to be from the RF= C > Editor. > > I don=E2=80=99t know who owns the authoring side of RFCXML; if it is the= RFC Editor, it might indeed seem logical for this responsibility to rest = with the RPC.) ...at least for RFC references. Yes. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Oct 20 08:11:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12AC3A1042 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ln8fnabsBIRg for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC8ED3A103F for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E60C38999; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 11:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id uy0e_t77km10; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 11:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3668B38997; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 11:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032881CC; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 11:11:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Julian Reschke cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9ba7b514-99ff-f828-1610-868d849bfaa1@gmx.de> References: <181dadfc-37bf-46ad-b907-853cad3dccd2@www.fastmail.com> <9ee90430-405b-4cf2-b1e7-5d241698a108@www.fastmail.com> <32564.1603119444@localhost> <8b5ebbef-6dca-1f56-0576-f395815c4b40@gmx.de> <9568.1603129249@localhost> <26473.1603140152@localhost> <9ba7b514-99ff-f828-1610-868d849bfaa1@gmx.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How do we diagnose DOI errors? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 15:11:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 19.10.2020 um 22:42 schrieb Michael Richardson: >> >> Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> If you use a specific URL, then it needs to be alive. >> >> > Yes. >> >> > But I would call that "robustness", not "portability". >> >> I plug in >> >> >> >> and the tool figures out where to get the data. > But that's not part of the official xml2rfc vocabulary. As long as I can submit RFCs to the RFC-editor with this syntax, and it passes idnits, etc., then I think it is part of the xml2rfc vocabulary, and the official document might be wrong :-) (PS vs IS) I know that this is a source of dispute. I don't know how we are going to fix this. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+O/jEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVLPAf+NC/MVowut1jXqMRm/5XQRF51jDg1HcYF3Y5w6lcS6+q7P8ItYwlp0I33 +cArak3g+eFm44xJ91EL70J4+DYd75UqYtZICKBFrx9KQ8fRp3rdehfy3qoWpn4/ xJh9RG+ym9MS6YeQ5JuvQYBtAPAj+TVPbagCvbixFH5Rn9Ys3S81JByqSuTZ6jKH F09t7pa9pVb/HCCFsKyC3kQmPUo/mMuIAtdiOlL2B0yIs1TgQQFSlTcIBKFpdC1h x2/cIWurUDztYms22ZLTjsGTdeFwigZEl3Q08BFtxthX/thIwEG4mqf7SZf9ZZpB fKeJZcOASo6QwGS7qjEu/lfvHuBByg== =2vyw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Oct 20 12:07:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4313A1301; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 12:07:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.275, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 705PhCJtPh9V; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 105023A0A7B; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 09KJ7hXf032834 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Oct 2020 14:07:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1603220865; bh=ylCsHnVHB2453nKfnqzz8rl4Gc+WMzyxuOCVX5SQboM=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QJax1MY+1H5aGw8rKvJqw2/T3T/pwVth9fc8RJnMmwIa9P644ZlDEd/YpFMTiKFCo ypVDYM6G0emf0go3rmgcJz/qeL/uzBrpSdWVjwuJw4k3NLR1I3/Fi5gWxg2r08GC1/ vDO+GhzBkG8I1mp5dwWE+DMeLs0kxBfpf9yU8TtI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local From: Robert Sparks To: Tom Pusateri , Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org References: <137438FD-E3FC-40C3-B482-B0E555F5318B@tzi.org> <743e6bef-ba4b-db2f-1980-62f967560924@nostrum.com> <622776EA-0F69-4B28-9CD2-D099EBB8D1DD@bangj.com> <63a1fb8c-12eb-a8e7-7bd0-1676d7dbb394@nostrum.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 14:07:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------79767B8E0C4556C5615382FD" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Closure (was Re: Reminder (Re: [Manycouches] Proposal to discontinue live mp3 audio streams at IETF meetings)) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 19:07:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------79767B8E0C4556C5615382FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have not seen any further responses. We will do the retooling needed to provide live audio streams as one named stream per session. RjS On 10/14/20 10:23 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > (With apologies for the intentional crosspost) > > If you have more to say, please do so by 16 Oct. > > My read of the feedback so far is that the evidence we had for low > usage was probably misleading, and there is still a demand for a live > audio stream if it were presented in a more useful form. I anticipate > we will do the retooling to provide these as one named stream per > session going forward. If anyone thinks that is not what we should be > doing, please say so. > > RjS > > >> We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for IETF >> meetings, >> starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the community before >> we do. >> >> At many past meetings we have produced live mp3 streams for each >> session. These >> steams have been associated with physical meeting rooms, and appeared >> before >> and during the session as a link on the agenda page to a URL like >> 'http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf.m3u'. >> >> >> For the last several meetings, these have only been available as a >> live stream. >> Recordings of that stream have not been made available after the >> meeting. The >> full video recording provided by Meetecho has served as the way to >> listen to >> (or watch) any given session after the fact. >> >> Further, for the last several meetings, the live streams have seen >> very light >> use, on the order of 10 uses for IETF 108. >> >> Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement >> to allow >> meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing the live >> streams to run >> outside their scheduled times will require changing how they are >> represented, >> to no longer be associated with "rooms" or "tracks". The code >> refactor at both >> the datatracker and at meetecho to support would not be a huge >> effort, but it >> also would not be tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity, >> recognizing that the regular meetecho connection and recordings >> satisfy the >> need, is the better use of our resources. That holds true even for >> future >> in-person meetings. >> >> There are several points that have been considered while arriving at >> this >> proposal: >> >> * Chairs use the recordings to fill in minutes. >> >>     For the last several meetings, the chairs have been using the >> Meetecho >>     recordings for this purpose. Recordings of the live mp3 streams >> haven't >>     been available. >> >> * Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than one >> meeting at >>   a time. >> >>     Meetecho allows joining multiple sessions. >> >> * Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough >> computer to run >>   meetecho. >> >>     The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at the last several >> meetings. >>     This population isn't using the mp3 streams to address the posited >>     limitations.  If this is a     concern that some people think >> they will >>     experience then we can look at asking Meetecho to allow sending only >>     audio (muting all video). >> >> * This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session in >>   real-time without paying a registration fee. >> >>    There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting >> registration >>    structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is available >> and being >>    improved. >> >> Please send comments by 16 Oct 2020 either to tools-discuss@ietf.org or >> directly to rjsparks@nostrum.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > --------------79767B8E0C4556C5615382FD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I have not seen any further responses.

We will do the retooling needed to provide live audio streams as one named stream per session.

RjS

On 10/14/20 10:23 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:

(With apologies for the intentional crosspost)

If you have more to say, please do so by 16 Oct.

My read of the feedback so far is that the evidence we had for low usage was probably misleading, and there is still a demand for a live audio stream if it were presented in a more useful form. I anticipate we will do the retooling to provide these as one named stream per session going forward. If anyone thinks that is not what we should be doing, please say so.

RjS


We propose to discontinue producing live mp3 audio streams for IETF meetings,
starting with IETF 109 and we want to hear from the community before we do.

At many past meetings we have produced live mp3 streams for each session. These
steams have been associated with physical meeting rooms, and appeared before
and during the session as a link on the agenda page to a URL like
'http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf<some_number_associated_with_the_room>.m3u'.

For the last several meetings, these have only been available as a live stream.
Recordings of that stream have not been made available after the meeting. The
full video recording provided by Meetecho has served as the way to listen to
(or watch) any given session after the fact.

Further, for the last several meetings, the live streams have seen very light
use, on the order of 10 uses for IETF 108.

Now that we are holding more meetings online, we have a requirement to allow
meetings to run outside their scheduled times. Allowing the live streams to run
outside their scheduled times will require changing how they are represented,
to no longer be associated with "rooms" or "tracks". The code refactor at both
the datatracker and at meetecho to support would not be a huge effort, but it
also would not be tiny. Instead, we feel that removing this complexity,
recognizing that the regular meetecho connection and recordings satisfy the
need, is the better use of our resources. That holds true even for future
in-person meetings.

There are several points that have been considered while arriving at this
proposal:

* Chairs use the recordings to fill in minutes.

    For the last several meetings, the chairs have been using the Meetecho
    recordings for this purpose. Recordings of the live mp3 streams haven't
    been available.

* Some participants (especially ADs) want to listen to more than one meeting at
  a time.

    Meetecho allows joining multiple sessions.

* Some participants may not have the bandwidth or a new enough computer to run
  meetecho.

    The use of the mp3 streams has been very low at the last several meetings.
    This population isn't using the mp3 streams to address the posited
    limitations.  If this is a     concern that some people think they will
    experience then we can look at asking Meetecho to allow sending only
    audio (muting all video).

* This removes a mechanism that allowed people to listen to a session in
  real-time without paying a registration fee.

   There will be ongoing discussion and tuning of the meeting registration
   structure. In the meantime, the fee waiver program is available and being
   improved.

Please send comments by 16 Oct 2020 either to tools-discuss@ietf.org or
directly to rjsparks@nostrum.com.

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

--------------79767B8E0C4556C5615382FD-- From nobody Tue Oct 20 16:59:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638663A0A07 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 16:59:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hnZGVGN6TdsE for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 16:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net [69.252.207.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38E13A0A06 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 16:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-19v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.115]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id UyHYkPshGypaDV1VukZYZg; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 23:57:58 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=20190202a; t=1603238278; bh=IMwcQwVBVGVgn46LM3Z6cCJMK2Fak8792dtNizwrV2c=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=uKdSdZHBDcELtySuCr45DCD3oB7+Fd0hxQIL+/gF7yfRQsFvhqDOK8XcvOgxUHNye 9Ijc3viaFbQrjooSczCRhtlLZme5rzppdyXPbh7k34OTl44OqN0/XM5wKCwzY35F9P krPByExPGP0cmxo1BScwrC7krMohCTp7EorXNgod2KN0PcHdMFpNndrTDiOOuQW78v gn9zMI+UsdIHCYEQipJ7G+itrR5bwU+dEQZ34LwHwy12GbK8Lzxx5hKZAjdUom9P7F 9oXEg8/UCbXPXd8pCdN73YRM3QMq+8y1ZrZf0DCYq4/2Gl8FKiO5HeLwihU3fFnDpq 2UXCPeEu5dzWQ== Received: from [192.168.1.22] ([108.28.189.254]) by resomta-ch2-19v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id V1Vmk2y6xJxyHV1VnkibHI; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 23:57:55 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrjeeggddvjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucevohhmtggrshhtqdftvghsihdpqfgfvfdppffquffrtefokffrnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddunecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepofhitghhrggvlhcuufhtlfhohhhnshcuoehmshhtjhhohhhnshestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepuedvieeiieettdetueejvdeftdfgfeekveelleegfedvleetvdefvedvheduveeunecuffhomhgrihhnpehorhhgrdgrshdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedutdekrddvkedrudekledrvdehgeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopegludelvddrudeikedruddrvddvngdpihhnvghtpedutdekrddvkedrudekledrvdehgedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmshhtjhhohhhnshestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopehtohholhhsqdguihhstghushhssehivghtfhdrohhrgh X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=0.00;st=legit To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> From: Michael StJohns Message-ID: <28308ff7-71db-34a4-89ae-37e86e224650@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 19:57:50 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34251f1d-51e3-f8c3-94c6-e99e12585016@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat service: xmpp X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 23:59:00 -0000 Just FYI -  Mozilla Thunderbird (mail client) has a built in XMPP client.  Tools -> Chat Status -> Show Accounts to add an account.  You might want to think about adding it to the list of clients. Mike On 10/14/2020 1:45 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > In addition to the trial instances of the matrix and zulip chat services, > we have deployed a trial instance of an xmpp service that allows local > accounts > to be registered, allows guest account access, and provides a web client. > > These services are available at xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. > > As noted earlier, we are deploying these services to gain operational > experience and get community feedback about how well they meet the > need for > IETF-related chat. > > We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey > (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) > that many > IETF participants find jabber a significant problem.  This is partly > due to > difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to client > issues. > There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to > improve the > IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative > groupchat > solution. This addition explores the the first path. > > This install has very little local configuration or customization.  As > with the > other trials, over the next few weeks, we will be exploring > reconfiguring the > service to use datatracker credentials for sign-in.  Bridging between the > systems is already being explored. Please remember that one > consequence of > these explorations is that there will likely be times, outside of > meetings, > when accounts will be disrupted or even removed and will have to be > recreated. > > We would like feedback on how well any of these services meet chat > needs during > meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, interims, adhocs, and > hallway > conversations. > > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback > received to > inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we will > operate > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not > intend to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the > trial > instances as we move forward. > > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). > > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org > > There are several community members who have put in significant effort > helping us to set up these trial instances. Please join me in thanking > Tim April, Matthew Hodgson, and Matthew Wild for their assistance. > > Robert Sparks - Tools team project manager > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Thu Oct 22 17:49:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563243A0FCF for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=sYgZHLv+; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=A0Np/ueH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QzurowLaWdKx for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BA913A0FCE for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2495C0112 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 22 Oct 2020 20:49:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=AFPcGJNu4j7ppFFtHtktQC+KZGlGSE4/yz68feBeSjc=; b=sYgZHLv+ QkmUO70tKyWb0NPGWRjBAsZ2ygTkdEdGe9sJyipeDolaGXy1zj+7nmbN2nGS9xaS EWPIO7X6sGpGgaTr8GbAwWBVGEak4W1LeHzbZg2PbgY/zzoLwnJdcQubEa5EM/za pJa+vyg7J4X+/JigJIl33NA4m4lKtw9jHuKz9pv+k0Q1gw/bt6go6uaFD8+V44Ry QmDWKgBTM+gq8hpPQJVnJZSXaJM3khCUat0NAABKPqIIw/rtvrFfXhYdJiZ0p8WW XJl0jcAau9ftoYSGi827D8mYLt5wxfbT1sJQUxsvG8PQiWHFDPTM6DQtCC2dDPa2 UYGAEcrG7zfDvg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=AFPcGJNu4j7ppFFtHtktQC+KZGlGS E4/yz68feBeSjc=; b=A0Np/ueHSPq9YOj9MGewJNbUu3BBIwNmUUzO9q6r+aZHL Ay/wqeRC6h/oVe+/iSdoLm4hr/ff+SuSrQNXNAYRM62YPlIBy5iZKSOxHHCMhvxJ 49ZaciwOW3ITPP0YuElbKs44EwyTRvvX0229d4A7EV2h7dM6+0Cg5jqBA+g2hPmF hPEZ5uBzcwmRmtJ8RtZfxuk/I6Dd9mZvDuKxOtkEuiabJGyuYKt2EuKibZbTS5/K eDeyOJQPx3gPlZK/yx2kfzISnK0eRzQGxaAxgmULpIlbxeggchSdPdj1vcqQtxfg S409+y2ussSw7C05ut88nLsT0kpMFPWX0YJrPnubQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrjeelgdegtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesthdtredtre ertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghn thhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvefguddtgfejfeduueehkeehke duueegheefgeevkeekgeelveevffeuudffheehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptden ucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 62DD3200CA; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-529-g69105b1-fm-20201021.003-g69105b13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02397da5-8092-40a1-b093-168800abc843@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:48:21 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Matrix-XMPP bridge X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 00:49:21 -0000 For what it is worth, prior to discovering the XMPP trial server, I was using the bridge from Matrix to join working group sessions. This worked quite well and I appreciated having it, even if the UX was rocky. I've just tried out the XMPP web UI and it is a vast improvement over running my own client. This too has some rough edges (try joining "@jabber.ietf.org" rather than just ""). One concern I have with XMPP is that the presence aspects of XMPP are somewhere between an anti-feature and a relic of a bygone era. Overall, the only real problem that I have is with the trials is that there are three of them. I don't yet have any data to let me say which is objectively "better". From nobody Fri Oct 23 04:21:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BB53A0C04 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2020 04:21:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RKgj84hClVy8 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2020 04:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9E133A0C94 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2020 04:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id r7so677296qkf.3 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2020 04:21:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aELG7LAHSzSMOFqLutoplwC7/RM1Dnwr0X27vGcrvA8=; b=u/SXKe+dEdgCZjX1UHSjnbggHfgOw6Z/V2b2+eWz6pSpy0YTN0n7sP5w4/Q07piZ0/ REwagOZpQTXEgHpEwpwuHnbvRSMf7ag2s0HAyM1SiIL9VI2TbVWmJiqq54FhFFNWQ0UM S8MA5OvWQIamDEpie893hG2pfMmdupF00p/jfw49lv7PlQUSWWh9Gaf7BalTikzuQ1/Y qLkQe1PDXDHYxPI8oaW9igg5NO/s3oYgDkfcAN8A8Co8pNiIUjk23R82lgwQL5h/g3VM CfIqd+vw1ZhQgT21yWrBlFOozULvbKTcQD5O9Dxugz25iejdgipt1Bd4MX9dG72/Iizk bbJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aELG7LAHSzSMOFqLutoplwC7/RM1Dnwr0X27vGcrvA8=; b=QAsxK/G6ipwZmiWlqjZ8pbacCQuYKWwk4v/6qNEapu+wOfda9pi3o4KH51D/fVjSgN UdJauEtGYExgx/jwBTamhGq6Ut0fN9UYKEU3boCMp9VE4D4sk0W2z+NCWuvrAYTtaxio BYwo4mr3i9+yli4zQX4z4+fEoFw9INmfXDMg44AopenIiP2j686JARXM/yfYGhhzlezN A4rg0wirnh8lwnzjy139IERvTQ8fmt0csrk2bGN5vJi5JNRSvWrhGtgXrls/ZqTpKk9d rtYkJ1l9TKwBfonOLt9EmI5BumNaBEPy1GYUQiZnk+s72GyMuDvQTa8CRsBHyCkCwYmM 71Zg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533plsm4IgSqHVScgEF/P9RQeR1XhFcRJj6TZUFTrcNRg84LxYre wg0H1O1HK2xN2CnWQtruWRhxqTg9fil9z2ibQRocx1GHTw1pcQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzr+3AKzcbSf2IPfkWO2HBiR+RkS+THZUJX9FRFkTSee5GUCYa3u5X29NDJ0Fr3NV5v01Wbd0eBsNhIv6jDMqo= X-Received: by 2002:a37:e51:: with SMTP id 78mr1601284qko.191.1603452060799; Fri, 23 Oct 2020 04:21:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <02397da5-8092-40a1-b093-168800abc843@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <02397da5-8092-40a1-b093-168800abc843@www.fastmail.com> From: Matthew Wild Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:20:48 +0100 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Matrix-XMPP bridge X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:21:14 -0000 Hi Martin, On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 01:49, Martin Thomson wrote: > > For what it is worth, prior to discovering the XMPP trial server, I was using the bridge from Matrix to join working group sessions. This worked quite well and I appreciated having it, even if the UX was rocky. > > I've just tried out the XMPP web UI and it is a vast improvement over running my own client. This too has some rough edges (try joining "@jabber.ietf.org" rather than just ""). Glad you found the web client easier! The primary recurring feedback from IETF 107 regarding XMPP was that some people struggled or were unable (e.g. due to company policy or corporate firewalls) to install software locally. The web client was therefore an essential step towards improving the XMPP setup. Thanks for the report about the issue joining when providing a full room address. This is a quirk of the configuration mode that the web client is in (it is "locked" to groups on jabber.ietf.org, and in this mode silently expects only a room name to be entered). I have filed an issue report here to get this fixed: https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/2311 > One concern I have with XMPP is that the presence aspects of XMPP are somewhere between an anti-feature and a relic of a bygone era. You're right that presence is a secondary feature these days for many purposes - many people have multiple devices, and at least one of them is semi-permanently connected to the internet. However XMPP has evolved with this change, most modern clients are hiding or de-emphasizing presence information in their UI. Instead they are opting to show membership information when this is more permanent (e.g. in private groups). That is, it's primarily a UX consideration for clients to adapt to at this point. At the protocol level we generally still track who is currently connected, which is useful for some things, and fine for all but the largest of rooms (and it can be disabled for those). We also have a newer group chat protocol (MIX) that is gradually being implemented by clients and servers which formally moves presence to a second-class feature of groups. Matrix groups are based on more permanent membership by default, and although it does support presence it is often disabled on larger deployments (for performance reasons, as I understand it). This approach has different tradeoffs, e.g. due to this many rooms on the Matrix network only grow in size and have many more members than they have active users. I believe a bot is used (or planned?) to clean up membership of inactive users after a configurable period (see https://github.com/turt2live/matrix-wishlist/issues/82 ). In summary, as many of us here will know, protocol design is hard and full of tradeoffs. And that's before we get to UX and the moving target that is "user expectations" :) Thanks again for the helpful feedback about your experience! Regards, Matthew From nobody Wed Oct 28 09:00:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534CF3A05A6; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N40G1TXsAcZM; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 213893A044A; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA962E2042; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29559-04; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id DB8E1E2040; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:00:37 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1603900837; bh=j+wNQ2iSHsr4IGPyRPs7X2T5BKSfigpN4GrFQGOo8sw=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:From:To:Cc; b=LCo1eSyTQI5HmMPVgCLpuWZpO8nSndkkecxAVQNcyunLN+p03SU/rXrUIJFUi7JlD XPyXXMbU/jenqMXgb/JnO8kuxsJP3uGTyfTAqwwyIRWYdQRFLxFRnKPy+tfPzem55m dtXLodv2kmNKNIEm+O8MIhf24rR9obYv2gdL+sbI= Received: from 192.168.248.158 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warlord) by mail2.ihtfp.org with HTTP; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:00:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <12c95563-8f0e-736f-d15b-61307c42e681@nostrum.com> References: <20201026181442.GA2438@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <7caa5bed-febc-dc71-ec0f-b4d4e951e01a@nostrum.com> <380F930D-96CA-4868-9001-5DC6C1157AA5@tzi.org> <12c95563-8f0e-736f-d15b-61307c42e681@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:00:37 -0400 From: "Derek Atkins" To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Cc: "Carsten Bormann" , "Working Group Chairs" , "RFC Interest" , rsoc@iab.org, "IETF Discussion Mailing List" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22-14.fc20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Setting Reply-To X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:00:41 -0000 My received version has this header: Reply-To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" I did "Reply-All" -derek On Wed, October 28, 2020 11:49 am, Robert Sparks wrote: > I haven't run into that. I'm going to try to redirect this particular > subthread to tools-discuss, with a Reply-To, and I'll go looking for > where such stripping might take place. > > RjS > > On 10/28/20 10:31 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> One little problem with executing on this is that the IETF mailing list >> software seems to swallow Reply-To. So there is no way to move comments >> to a message to a specific mailing list. >> >> Attempts to do such a move without the aid of reply-to usually don’t >> work (they just add more fragmentation to the discussion). >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > > -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Wed Oct 28 10:01:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124E33A09BD for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXATML-rPBxH for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D9E33A09D3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5806F389E4 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id oma5_gHpTqjX for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D8F389E3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B28E98A for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:01:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <20201026181442.GA2438@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <7caa5bed-febc-dc71-ec0f-b4d4e951e01a@nostrum.com> <380F930D-96CA-4868-9001-5DC6C1157AA5@tzi.org> <12c95563-8f0e-736f-d15b-61307c42e681@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Setting Reply-To X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:01:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Derek Atkins wrote: > My received version has this header: > Reply-To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" > I did "Reply-All" I also got it. But I definitely have seen it disappear on other lists. Forced reply to list is a mailman settings, perhaps we have inconsistent li= st settings. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+Zo9UACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVoCgf+ORvNxe2frHSA0AWALJzyNBIhOz96GWfBjkCzmIpDPCZWK5Ud6bxaKvjp f31K7a/ey1jbFsFU+0ozkN3RkiqmM4/8IYydj3kIzIxH55dnT3HShgg9OrZbJfrQ pVwRoJKVuXj9uaVyw5Evdxr4FNLdgQaAYs46gKRFDtZ73NT+HOlk9ZCIYmnm5TK6 Dg7uKN0UqZs59Jw/hjPFLJ1A7UkagJqyP62DYNQVksUpil5JLjOWGUP3WsNvhMtX kLJ67DTL4hLkEehUxMG0RFxDMnXgGj9PNCCSrwuYTzhuKmBk8Ft93yMC8T0xXRTW EeYbqvOnr8pLX6Lmt2Ibn/N+w9u5sQ== =fDKn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 10:08:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD623A0920 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcR7y_AJBLX2 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4B3C3A0779 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hSjoFCqIHTJR for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE7DD3A09E0 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 09SHJg91063633 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:19:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1603905583; bh=jUtBMYigeaJcU1LTjB/Unlmeaap0XIntBxgQ+OSl3G8=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ks+FyYOH/WlOwatglp667Hr18FF055u+HjZuT/g2GoJ+1NG+ievsMDud0jyBUqx6E I/7Kv3/vB/+ew+sUcuRWBYdN2iiEWlvoMO3HXYr/umcZuD5+JyOt3w3ftmU8Enz7FQ TTOf2FrIemrwkb/JjMetN8Zmi8128Ci2xiq1x+D8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20201026181442.GA2438@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <7caa5bed-febc-dc71-ec0f-b4d4e951e01a@nostrum.com> <380F930D-96CA-4868-9001-5DC6C1157AA5@tzi.org> <12c95563-8f0e-736f-d15b-61307c42e681@nostrum.com> <25861.1603904469@localhost> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:19:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25861.1603904469@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E4BA2D06CACD6EAFCC5260B1" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Setting Reply-To X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:19:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E4BA2D06CACD6EAFCC5260B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/28/20 12:01 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Derek Atkins wrote: > > My received version has this header: > > > Reply-To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" > > > I did "Reply-All" > > I also got it. > > But I definitely have seen it disappear on other lists. > Forced reply to list is a mailman settings, perhaps we have inconsisten= t list > settings. I looked and there are only 3 lists currently configured to remove=20 reply-to (quic-issues, venue-selection, and wax). There are only a small set of lists that use forced reply (mailman's=20 reply_goes_to_list setting), like i-d-announce, usually to send replies=20 somewhere else. Please watch for the disappearing you've seen and report it when you see = it. I'm not finding anything that would cause that in the current=20 processing chain. RjS > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T cons= ulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --------------E4BA2D06CACD6EAFCC5260B1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 10/28/20 12:01 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> wrote:
    > My received version has this header:

    > Reply-To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" <tools-discuss@ietf.org>

    > I did "Reply-All"

I also got it.

But I definitely have seen it disappear on other lists.
Forced reply to list is a mailman settings, perhaps we have inconsistent list
settings.

I looked and there are only 3 lists currently configured to remove reply-to (quic-issues, venue-selection, and wax).

There are only a small set of lists that use forced reply (mailman's reply_goes_to_list setting), like i-d-announce, usually to send replies somewhere else.

Please watch for the disappearing you've seen and report it when you see it. I'm not finding anything that would cause that in the current processing chain.

RjS



--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide






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Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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--------------E4BA2D06CACD6EAFCC5260B1-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 10:20:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4C33A09F0 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TDOV-v1eUJB0 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E9E73A09E1 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 09SHKb9c063947 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:20:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1603905638; bh=vDm3zBG1/wA7aKm/SHQ4wmiZeBxD/OtlSiz0htizErg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=LiZPk5E9u8P443lH1n0166UmGvj/pXUOGoO+uoFsrgKbRnj6+ivLpo8xHhV4ht+Wt UGeLNLwks3kz9M8lysHB2g+dctZ8Fc5V+fWbe5WcF9u+/Ilr2PQHgUS+yqGsD1MBY9 IFi7OMpLLRJ+WBqL3gt6sbJAs+ZHRwZrQBIZuu0A= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20201026181442.GA2438@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <7caa5bed-febc-dc71-ec0f-b4d4e951e01a@nostrum.com> <380F930D-96CA-4868-9001-5DC6C1157AA5@tzi.org> <12c95563-8f0e-736f-d15b-61307c42e681@nostrum.com> <25861.1603904469@localhost> <741AD4B3-690B-423A-B22A-619F9470987E@akamai.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <13d6961f-5418-d8e7-ce7c-c0196f7648bf@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:20:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <741AD4B3-690B-423A-B22A-619F9470987E@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Setting Reply-To X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:20:41 -0000 On 10/28/20 12:08 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Forced reply to list is a mailman settings, perhaps we have inconsistent list > settings. > > > Almost definitely we do. I looked and in this case, we really don't (see my reply to Michael) > > Mailman has ways to dump/set (e.g., script) settings and that might be worth thinking about. > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Wed Oct 28 11:21:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCEF3A083B for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:21:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rTBzLNspXZuR for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F5DE3A0820 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CLxj23R9rzKM3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:21:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1603909270; bh=3my2dDEJaLGPsrR8npyQj+S8g2qXAdjuBXewh9cabtQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject; b=VyzWdLU3/y4E6/J6a3R3mXP77JPbWSIOtw7UIkbd+wVLmNEy1e86k47EabjaG9jJg o2SYqJMMfvOa9JxFPB7aonuDZPHCbGPquDw5rAjxKcc/Hm7/CZKSmiCAZBwk6sxs8a DwNvOWpRkAtbh4MtUrvSMZh097gQQO4Wnqyi36ls= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MZHuZmM-66e1 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:21:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [193.110.157.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:21:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A15AF6020F5D; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9909F336CE8 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:21:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 18:21:14 -0000 Hi, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8784 This RFC seems to have a mangled ToC that cannot be clicked at. Is that something that can be fixed? Paul From nobody Wed Oct 28 11:48:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58523A0AE7 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sp5fPJP6POhE for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD3873A0B02 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:64295 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kXqUV-0000ig-V3; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:48:12 -0700 To: Paul Wouters , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:48:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TssLNt4vjFsgkRBVncnv0lpV4QGIvImxM" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, paul@nohats.ca X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 18:48:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TssLNt4vjFsgkRBVncnv0lpV4QGIvImxM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="p2tSeljrXgrmRPP1gOwaovigGFV0FMrrq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Paul Wouters , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 References: In-Reply-To: --p2tSeljrXgrmRPP1gOwaovigGFV0FMrrq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, On 2020-10-28 19:21, Paul Wouters wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8784 >=20 > This RFC seems to have a mangled ToC that cannot be clicked at. >=20 > Is that something that can be fixed? Probably yes. The biggest stumbling block is that with the current un-paginated RFC text format, there is nothing or not much to distinguish= ToC lines from start-of-section lines later in the document, which is an issue for the regex-based (~ stateless) htmlization script. The line of spaced dots between section name and page number in earlier ToCs were used to identify ToC entries. I think I can figure out a way to deal with this, but it will require som= e coding, testing, and a new release of my htmlization lib. Best regards, Henrik --p2tSeljrXgrmRPP1gOwaovigGFV0FMrrq-- --TssLNt4vjFsgkRBVncnv0lpV4QGIvImxM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl+ZvOUACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqQew//fPlbZCMfIxlzHvhsGmjK0irXQ2DJV5izZ3ipUgE2cFpvu+NlVAQ5NlkV qpRnnDS+D3r+P22DMjoOM98uh709z4HE1qd5GMB1n6uztveozAjIAwwupj+Hyga5 GX7F/G81Mr+/nTkrjVxerGamtsGYK29bo0CAV7qAvKKkEOTIQr0ngfC8o1MPVzwJ 5iJgLcmvGN21A2VWIR6NcRLiHWeElzXSmkcIILo5CAE06ce2QsnZXo1FzkNYdcvA iEk6Gfy4XciM3JhcKKII62ax2KCQo2nGF7dSzXkdyd4XSRUQRLYDummDaRZbhtzN dKi5TOp3yeNAxIQNN1xggQxNjyN8mubu/QqviP+2453o9wuEP7YhKSoMekV/ui7b vu9pB1DIcLjZOtenAg04HKHYwArJe02XBxgiDoQNHuFdV7vzRdFf4LyPzsYcOSGt HcKIbFgcNSjV41K12QxTOOMguuvNY/29Bff/1r43d8eY+zME5N8iB+Z5aWeNOBwz BpFmCqrH3h2RbP8yJcCcRhB9sJbMsjNB9zr59b4PZDOhVv1EXLAEPaVhkKrAKh82 EyH3+1XydZQW2f8Ye6CiUpRDBxly/X7SJ7sewb3PPf4IcDph9e4nW1vaChe4GjL6 LHr+P+Ywk08GVuGnWPYn2xvbmMxbD7sRCQefyzvNdOf7m6fxrog= =GQbg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TssLNt4vjFsgkRBVncnv0lpV4QGIvImxM-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 13:00:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD1B3A08AD for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoP6moEXBLNY for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA9053A0846 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4C7389E3; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id zjg-_yobsv62; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65367389E1; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D29E4F5; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:59:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Paul Wouters In-Reply-To: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> References: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 20:00:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > On 2020-10-28 19:21, Paul Wouters wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8784 >> >> This RFC seems to have a mangled ToC that cannot be clicked at. >> >> Is that something that can be fixed? > Probably yes. The biggest stumbling block is that with the current > un-paginated RFC text format, there is nothing or not much to distinguish > ToC lines from start-of-section lines later in the document, which is > an issue for the regex-based (~ stateless) htmlization script. > The line of spaced dots between section name and page number in earlier > ToCs were used to identify ToC entries. > I think I can figure out a way to deal with this, but it will require some > coding, testing, and a new release of my htmlization lib. I gotta ask if it's worth fixing? Maybe we need a new output option for xml2rfc that produces this text-like output that we seem to prefer. Or maybe it's just a CSS variation? (For along time, I've prefered the tools htmlized pages: they were the best for pulling offline onto a tablet for reading. The apps that I used for doing that have rotted, and COVID has made that less interesting) The RFC editor copy of HTML looks great, and it links to that, and the ToC works there. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+ZzbsACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWfmwf/Xo+Jh+I1kZ/3MgOHFe9EWDhSAJBGDa0foOnO/NW5Z43yrbGuq+/1QFPw tX+9ueilqdEI9VeqxlQRqwT02ElV5LRLt5/Ae0DWkvxuhxX9RcI6cCQPzUkimTeR JfHRTn+h6Je8WYWHSm5Hq+zElY+GrwUfP6cPsLBUnNqbhjV6QxEuEel3XtRxiJhg ZtcgONOLxqfMBaELiuxj2zWJIWYNkfy0UKD+yZnvJtteebMh0LR38YXHrW4JnFFJ 8htBe2ArhOXpaGCeaRcBXf/F35na61m1fgUx1Bg0eksW2CHVKMl4fcwce3hfr45u UZrio7LG7k2HppoeAiwJ5ZsGPQDnOg== =gRxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 13:18:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491EF3A0B20 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:18:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 89ViWPDpXXRI for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2582F3A09C3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 13:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CM0JM6mS9zKMN; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 21:18:27 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1603916307; bh=8Lhfs0bJ+kvj+QuxJuKLekaIE4BZfPcak6bjZpgv0Xc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=m7gy83+EzadIY6XzYuUbxJ2igPjHlUWA5sAZT1TRRjzEaZocwfZPPNkLO5tU5UedO Gr+BXLOZJWIYY+jjAKfjJyowsQqCp2id2qG2kbSn44f0gV+5jgt3IQQ6JBNHJa7L4b pQ5TeXfnA1yK37Mz3Vz4N0MPXaaqDpDPckmvudGo= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mebzn_mc1zGf; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 21:18:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [193.110.157.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 21:18:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CAE6C6020F5D; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AA6350736; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:18:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Michael Richardson cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: <6756.1603915195@localhost> Message-ID: References: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> <6756.1603915195@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 20:18:51 -0000 On Wed, 28 Oct 2020, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> This RFC seems to have a mangled ToC that cannot be clicked at. > I gotta ask if it's worth fixing? Yes it is. What's the point of a ToC if I can't use it to go to a specific section. > (For along time, I've prefered the tools htmlized pages: they were the best I still prefer the tools version and I think they are still the best. Paul From nobody Wed Oct 28 16:50:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C161D3A0975 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I7OA9HnTRdph for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EC123A0969 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E754D389D3; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id FqsQr3AHJ8wk; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856D8389D1; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C928E4F5; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:50:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Paul Wouters , tools-discuss@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: References: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> <6756.1603915195@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 23:50:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Wouters wrote: >> >> This RFC seems to have a mangled ToC that cannot be clicked at. >> I gotta ask if it's worth fixing? > Yes it is. What's the point of a ToC if I can't use it to go to a > specific section. I agree that the TOC is useless in this form. I'm asking what would make the HTML version more useable to you? I also find it different and weird, but I'm starting to accept it. The best part of the tools htmlized version is that it, by default, seems to fill most of my screen (fit-width), while the various other versions I have to adjust things, and sometimes it just never looks right. The DT copy of the htmlization suffers from this in particular. The HTML output is naturally much more reactive, but I still find that there is too much wasted white space. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+aA9sACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUKUAgAnEy3BFpGoWEDCHa77tRl4ELWNLfBdLr+6xXy9gh6wBt/kpSvT7brCfL2 utAkAgthpa4BGAdavSuFCbg45wl4vEO6qz3AbhU7SqgpfKsFALBW96S5YyfXo/nX +DU3y5058vXoCoCsIBleMiXwc37YyNY5wU3nBmCsKzFNYSS8Vx8aYyM/ho8Tz1dv RUj8pUqpDzAouD49TfcKj1wi3+nefAO0jneFdNxsYyt1hMxFX5NTJZMwQGE9Qc5C 4N0IdA9IrakRa4fl8MV7h2CM5c+BW/8cCJUgd9jgD7W6ln50btvgKsHvx5kTPZYc EQ0c05TP6J1tJTmonpCdbsO23dt5Lw== =ITEm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 17:17:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA77D3A0140 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1jgR6jqFPVGV for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34CD23A0B8C for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id x7so930650wrl.3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=CYVTE6RzE4gcicUTctNbG9uDKMzjUKts0ZHrEKxsoF4=; b=suJoc0yMxGLoJk6PlG1cSIu4B14NOLnGWFkqSBm8m446AP1VLhLf3zd1UAByveN0V8 mJNoFXxFdOmQyQm15+IGuvvlGAkcGPqzLXGaX3EPo43inB1aG9Av6W4oVpvJFsNbQ11J Xmu3RsNusK4vA2m2nE7CYFiQ2YXi6bM/rM9P9UUgClZkcmuDM1s+qKtfzWsWHflfmjA0 zJb6lhKkqLJldt5eai7hIcAQe7Jg5FK96Hhh+lKvYJoGEhJJ+ZZuvM8XQWviiU983dCy gak0rr9ARj1i2vdhiBgDWklysxslE185bJjbzJOwfCXepN8Uba9VkdghWpLXl8McLk2n /o6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=CYVTE6RzE4gcicUTctNbG9uDKMzjUKts0ZHrEKxsoF4=; b=rjkQQ9pJJzXi7CcysRREp0YNcZr3CP8MVjgs3LjMBMjtlHZjp4Zwn73muJ6K/lGTT0 gGPG0FcYwfpPCiH5tSFIFK1ZSa3nxmZiO/ccx4hoVQta3vojIePUHbSPSOk4aI3wzbmo Sz7Dz2qbCRaSzyI8/o6EytrSwNxsVf/D7edOYKt+Rm1rTITNtVtRv6qHfeCDxuqgK4wz Ykykpa9usibfZdH7mA7xIpgEISRHQYCKjTqNr6Fp/Ikz22JoguPZBVOZYlSAwFyE0Ffm MGPMT6v4ABQCpZxY/VhVEiMTIcvCrpJSWrTb4osgTjWYpkjqXyDaef/N3UUrmR2mT+Ew Khxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fLRRJgcVRLSTFKIF7VG4PA0iM6Qn4z7GxUs91ALfvlLklJzUs cLiYFeEYsmU8aqxWTcA4D/I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxokuVWoAvvjBtHDUT4DjbcGXanFHnL9DXSJrQVVF1qWm0qy1NTHANiFIg+dQaTQ8hbTHeigA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ec50:: with SMTP id w16mr2038001wrn.265.1603930569627; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:5083:8adc:a63c:2546? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:5083:8adc:a63c:2546]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x3sm1367288wmi.45.2020.10.28.17.16.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1DA997A3-734C-4B92-B49F-51E401C1EEB7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:16:04 -0700 In-Reply-To: <29510.1603929051@localhost> Cc: Bob Hinden , Paul Wouters , Tools Team Discussion , Henrik Levkowetz To: Michael Richardson References: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> <6756.1603915195@localhost> <29510.1603929051@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 00:17:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1DA997A3-734C-4B92-B49F-51E401C1EEB7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Oct 28, 2020, at 4:50 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Paul Wouters wrote: >>>>> This RFC seems to have a mangled ToC that cannot be clicked at. >=20 >>> I gotta ask if it's worth fixing? >=20 >> Yes it is. What's the point of a ToC if I can't use it to go to a >> specific section. >=20 > I agree that the TOC is useless in this form. > I'm asking what would make the HTML version more useable to you? > I also find it different and weird, but I'm starting to accept it. >=20 > The best part of the tools htmlized version is that it, by default, = seems to > fill most of my screen (fit-width), while the various other versions I = have > to adjust things, and sometimes it just never looks right. > The DT copy of the htmlization suffers from this in particular. >=20 > The HTML output is naturally much more reactive, but I still find that = there > is too much wasted white space. I agree with what Michael said. Bob --Apple-Mail=_1DA997A3-734C-4B92-B49F-51E401C1EEB7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+aCcQACgkQrut0EXfn u6hUKwf9FiMJMWoPiV6pIAZHQqZT+SJoWRkYsSuGT3D1EvSr5H7CtIY4WNt3Mj0J nquyGg/f01lny9o586DhFFaoBTFn5Vh8/wxPMYZabvDRcssOT10/6gDZ+79+X1zf irU/1SBroWHvQ749862fdVO/CO7GG/FK8k/REwoNFeREOoeV83df0OcxyzHHaOpy JSqVq4WCKcAcAe4aDfsREiJd3oLzipxxtzA0lRdS0lQM2NNfH2+xWdvCvmU7SFQG SCaYWw8DZ9dhOd+Uhr/l5TCEFm00feLIluzp4GanJZucWpJtFbAUrJESaNsyTCTe pz9CmllGtmb/Y9RKs0ZvGFwEv+4E2A== =NpIM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1DA997A3-734C-4B92-B49F-51E401C1EEB7-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 17:36:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A383A03F3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5qCXnr6nUn3p for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2B763A03C9 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CM61p6gTyz10G1; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 01:36:14 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <29510.1603929051@localhost> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 01:36:14 +0100 Cc: Paul Wouters , Tools Team Discussion , Henrik Levkowetz X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 625624574.462693-f21eef7321b703e725ac86439039baf5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3A34B040-00D2-4805-A0C3-8BFDCE247FA0@tzi.org> References: <438c0bc7-ceed-c77b-4846-75f26e477ae9@levkowetz.com> <6756.1603915195@localhost> <29510.1603929051@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] mangled ToC in RFC 8784 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 00:36:21 -0000 On 2020-10-29, at 00:50, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > The HTML output is naturally much more reactive, but I still find that = there > is too much wasted white space. There are three modes: (1) narrow browser window: pull-down TOC; quite usable. (2) wide browser window: The TOC takes most(*) of the right half. This is great if you are TOC-clicking, not so great if you are trying to = get an overview what is on the page [sic]. (3) very wide browser window: the text is a sausage in the middle, the = TOC is on the right, most of the space is wasted. It is probably right = for readability in most cases that the line length is limited to about = 110 characters, but, again, that doesn=E2=80=99t help if you want to = maximize the overview. I think there needs to be a way to click away the TOC into pull-down = mode even with wide windows, and to click away the wide white margins = when one prefers to use the whole window width. I haven=E2=80=99t tried to understand yet when there is a = metadata.min.js and when there isn=E2=80=99t; it looks like there = isn=E2=80=99t one in https://www.ietf.org/archive/id or = https://www.ietf.org/id . Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) If there is more TOC than space, the TOC starts to scroll, but = doesn=E2=80=99t use the full window height. Slightly infuriating, in = particular since I can=E2=80=99t control the font size of the TOC = independently to show more. From nobody Thu Oct 29 09:51:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBB23A09D4 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:51:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wEqDv8lMZwvF for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DBEE3A0971 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E386D389D3 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xS5VMAM-WkG3 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FB9389CF for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0706A59A for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:51:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 16:51:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some year or so ago I asked if our XML format could accomodate a structured form of the contributor. There was various discussion (ratholing, alas) on how different WGs would use it differently, and how to game the system, etc. It turns out that we already have this feature. In the kramdown, one can do: contributor: - name: Bugs Bunny email: bugsbunny@loneytunes.example which results in XML like:
Contributors
bugsbunny@loneytunes.example
It occurs to me that it might be nice if we could connect the contributors directly to a DT /Person/XYZ page. That would sure make any kind of mechanical collection of the data really really really easy. It's right now, easy: take the email address and find it in the DT list of emails for the people. But, on my side, the authoring side, I often three things wrong: 1) I don't know how to get the right accents and/or non-english UTF-8 righ= t. 2) My notion of could be obsolete. 3) What if I credit the wrong person because names are similiar? On the contributor side, it would be nice if they knew that their name was there, in part so that they could object! So I'm thinking that it would be cool if we could do something like: [Not sure how I'd do this in kramdown. New "ietfdtemail:" tag or somethin= g] to get the contributor and/or author information sucked in documents. Would this be helpful, or am I just trying to be too cute? This is just stuff to code, no changes to the XML scheme required, AFAIK. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+a8x8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWw6Af9G/vE1fCBtydlSx4BShxUpyLtk/Ve/N1LSryFUzbSfNHHPMGjebs7gXhe p9huUJaruq87WY3bORlu9yq3/thh1kxWQYVpoC1ebXYkD9EDCmSbXtMqxWhUIM4O HWYB1ZTj6IvSRKzfVJSUVMeaK3OgCulgLPA+PKfz7w1FBcg9Vsr/kQL4NRpN0Bwv LMvoAbfeMVR1qwWiN3WtFpJCpAuVTC+l+e6uJNCx4nG4XTWOahO9PdojPcCV6waW CKNnVcbUqm3oGm+PvNPjn+aETPSxGmWFI1drIhkLK+s6RPylm5fYbuDHujbWI2oL lzHcKO+1KNZqYzywiHm8stXyW3MMuw== =NhCB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 29 10:13:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B813A0AB6 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 10:13:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7aPyVDTm7-H for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 10:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE1FB3A0A82 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 10:13:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603991584; bh=fGaGEXCFXViIATgluLH9kITtmCkbrMARNECMycA8S/c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=i/VAN8x5hCSjVE0xsCAu78B3UJ3tcSysSLJZxLBExyZ8njtcJZDclCxJLIL+foxv7 3K7FQHUMMC3g6CfSvVz2ig8zqHjVnKk4c3OPMQNjKl26uy6KnUVU6hnv4PUXFEkz0z vvgBYbW6BhH0nAUqp4gNN/q65ylBPHgykD0G9rLg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.62.12]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpDJd-1k1p0R1WLn-00qm3T for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:13:04 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:13:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <17582.1603990304@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TMidtioVhwCRfsFZKAOvaOGLOx/S8BQwEVQUPmqS+5WVyyOwD3r NvWRRRYG/3dB1/YNn8ZuyS1cczYByPjEELt3z2Q8SNi7wOBecCXXgULXgEx6D/dHZ+1sOuo mI83vUSS/7jVXBZNWS/jogm92dFtq7oZKdG7Yf6/cVbXFye+9TGNEE80fWEbQrmk5zpKJ0S yVs236kvZdarmzd3Ntorw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:UUfSkALBpLg=:dJr5KLmWNCxtiGTMShZi2L ct9bzG7FyztO+SUVpAlyGrtQ26+ChXkCcq2QaomrKKa8tsyxyieu5uXSOQcKo7Z0AdjhwIpKp tzo5O0S44CVyIHTpk4d3rNR7/d/wl+fjSjHl6Lq9g+geRtzdxkH8NUNUhe3U8+lQltWAIlYmE rZfb0Znc14WRGOT4HHP4PEwk5CpUKbWLY7/Co47j7jR38n77LCcyMhiiq2JW81rTHabe3v/tJ vk2Z5Wr0N0CG+vPIGRS77ZsEh10efUrkzN+dUEzXWjqWFbFPwYMXhAhNgId7CMP57DkvFuQRl DPwhVUrYiSkE9QI/aUbhugiwDfHGisSkGHGV2E9Mk3SyWcb059QKqx8tZeLYea2nwY4W0qL/a nD5p0qSH7RPvL34ZB40dl/kaunWkRHRyKwnDE5jKZlK7Cq3tjCBPCQ8h3lDC9WiHY35GhGHgv kLR6XIm/W/5g60P6JYmwMzKdPwNnXb7EpuUFsVFkpE8RLmBrhlMEMhdZoAFmsE8YFI88mQuX5 lWEFPQNEJlly90HwJnWYKcQR0HtyH2frMkEt+PK9mlIKo8Nrw0to3WZZ3JhfEkmXh8IOEvp9W tJRkG5dXJ2lsCaeratf7vNJbWNhWxO0jl6MvOrpbS2/CoyxAbZhewlePFB61J4e4y72CX0pQ2 D8GBj4xlO3jMgIxdqn8e6uMsQY5VhnTdGfi4BcRnlLin0YlbKHLxWGLseoNFIF5ffnkT+qO8J Ir061STqccXw8wVc2wQbz9geny4UYhR8lzJOFLfHs2r27mIVH8wmsYm7Gl5CCluzHULvwJ1tE 3gFo/7jT4Tdb80jz0hxu4/JQqzvM/aGpOFJ1e9cbYdVFUFi6S/JX+zno3GSCMA12So0RVDbrv papIjXvgvSY3yX09ieMA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:13:10 -0000 Am 29.10.2020 um 17:51 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > Some year or so ago I asked if our XML format could accomodate a structu= red > form of the contributor. There was various discussion (ratholing, alas)= on > how different WGs would use it differently, and how to game the system, = etc. > > It turns out that we already have this feature. > ... For some value of "already". History in ... > In the kramdown, one can do: > > contributor: > - name: Bugs Bunny > email: bugsbunny@loneytunes.example > > which results in XML like: > >
> Contributors > > [Not sure how I'd do this in kramdown. New "ietfdtemail:" tag or some= thing] > > to get the contributor and/or author information sucked in documents. > ... In theory, the datatracker could have that as XML resource, and then you could just do an . > ... > Would this be helpful, or am I just trying to be too cute? > This is just stuff to code, no changes to the XML scheme required, AFAIK= . > ... Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Oct 29 11:07:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95F73A0948 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B-YTDRAhv7iT for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 308783A0876 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A78B548684; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:06:58 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 320A9440059; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:06:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:06:58 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss Message-ID: <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <17582.1603990304@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:07 -0000 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:51:44PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Some year or so ago I asked if our XML format could accomodate a structured > form of the contributor. There was various discussion (ratholing, alas) on > how different WGs would use it differently, and how to game the system, etc. > > It turns out that we already have this feature. https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-29.xml Sandelman Software Works
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/
I had to go through the horrifying experience of changing from xmlv2 to v3, as this is a new feature in v3. Really just to be able to add structured contributors *sigh*. I guess RFC editor would have done the upgrade to v3 anyhow though, so maybe i will have saved them time. the v3 xml, at least the normalized version spit out by the conversion is now even less human producable, so i will certainly be attempting to do kramdown or the like on my next work. Too bad it can't be directly uploaded to datatracker. Note though, that the tag does not make it unambigous whether the content describes a contributor or gives an acknowledgement. This is the key difference to . The role="..." option is not available for as opposed to , otherwise that would be an easy way (role="contributor", role="acknowledgemenet") of course, it wouldn't be too difficult to assume well-known sections cacknowledgements/contributors, but thats still DPI and not real structure ;-) > In the kramdown, one can do: > > contributor: > - name: Bugs Bunny > email: bugsbunny@loneytunes.example Which RFC is that ? ;-) > which results in XML like: > >
> Contributors > > >
> bugsbunny@loneytunes.example >
> > > It occurs to me that it might be nice if we could connect the contributors > directly to a DT /Person/XYZ page. That would sure make any kind of > mechanical collection of the data really really really easy. Indeed i did wanted to have the structured contributor section to make such automation easier. No idea if tools team or Jari actually do benefit from it today though. Tools teal doesn't seem to capture contirbutors for stats, and i guess Jari is doing lots of pattern matching. So, are you suggesting that the tools team should add to the list of RFC "authored" on a datatracker person page also the list of draft/RFC contributed to ? If yes, then +1. As a WG chair i think any incentives we can give to get more contributors is highly desirable for IETF. Hence also me stressing myself with xmlv3. Do we have any RFCs like for pagination of RFCs that tell the tools team what MUST be on the datracker person page which should also be interpreted that NOTHING ELSE will be on it ? > It's right now, easy: take the email address and find it in the DT list of > emails for the people. I guess this is how authors are mapped on the datatracker person page. > But, on my side, the authoring side, I often three things wrong: > 1) I don't know how to get the right accents and/or non-english UTF-8 right. > 2) My notion of could be obsolete. > 3) What if I credit the wrong person because names are similiar? I think datatracker is only using sets of email addresses to identify individuals and map them. Maybe just never let Mirja contribute to your work (kidding of course, but her email address is the only one i remember i repeatedly had problems with because at some point she used some non-acii UTF-8 characters in it). > On the contributor side, it would be nice if they knew that their name was > there, in part so that they could object! Except i don't buy the "they could object" part. I don't think one should add contributors without having a good upfront understanding that its a) true, and b) welcome. And then of course also send email to explicitly tell that it was done. (i hope and think to remember i did this in your case ;-)) But of course, if a contributor has an email box like mine, it might be easier to find stuff on some automated tools pages... > So I'm thinking that it would be cool if we could do something like: > > > [Not sure how I'd do this in kramdown. New "ietfdtemail:" tag or something] > > to get the contributor and/or author information sucked in documents. Would be good if this would equally work for acknowledgements, except that only the name would show up in the rendered output. > Would this be helpful, or am I just trying to be too cute? Yes, yes. The second yes is cynical as to the speed at which we seem to be able to adopt change as well as the probems ... see below. No idea about your formatting proposal, but getting stuff automatically from email addresses would be great. Just lets make sure we don't eliminate support for non-email address based acks/contributors. Heck, we even have authors for which we do not have email addresses published (e.g.: retireees like Steve Deering, rfc8200). A followup question would then be if/how we might want to render hotlink capable output formats: Include URL to datatracker page of the person ? > This is just stuff to code, no changes to the XML scheme required, AFAIK. Is there an API on datatracker to look up a person from an email address so a renderer could find a person that way ? Could be used both from the kramdown script as well as from a later renderer. Oh no, we're creating another perpass attack... Especially if we wanted to be able to use the scheme when there is no public email address and we would invent pseudo-emails like Dr.Steve.E.Deering@noreply-id.ietf.org as a form of ID, upon which i am sure i would get a double rejection both from perpass AND email AD, even though effectively this is i think how a person is also tracked as an author in datatracker, but psssst... we can not talk about that, can't use email because there shall be no noreply email addresses and we we can not come up with other IDs because that would be even more egregious to anti-perpass folks. *sigh* Cheers toerless > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 IT consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Oct 29 11:25:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F358C3A09D6 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zJRK-tPdVKSP for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28A7F3A09CF for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:25:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603995934; bh=1SOIqn6dym5r78bCBbWxcANn9zz9SuNyDPTrUOAxPa8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=lDXmsS0EIX896vDxfrX+SIIxVE5jpvd17lf5sfhBlQORejzwRhIO8NpClOeR2Li5P HIsOGs7dPdBcs0fH2WPx0LACvsSSuSo8SFs07eEWIb052LdDmK8VYB/UIymEMeUNG3 9W8LkyXU5TF5i1+On/kDaCoUrtzniEB1BSdj6JZs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.62.12]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MQvCv-1kllgQ3iRr-00O0jw for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:25:33 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:25:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vqWsUyZOhe0udoBMExSfMXMDcunZogFgD09GEg4/BWKaNh15XjS fHWczNUmqdMxA/QB5lGkfhk2sVc2BqyTWb4iv/zKvefkfDRFrsos7XJk0oMxiH2zdI91O6T +JkrqUk7fpfmtAmhaqhoLjZsv7mqd9WivW9KFd2IDFXuiKKF6ICGpSDBO4LlcNeotc1eZlq tXRlJxivEw4nvgyEwLTSg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:nzjAvHSA8oQ=:KOdx3w/oSbWUGuCmwHScxl OBz7NY523ovgS94GcbMuDEHojsQvxMWUmfLMyxusWK+pUiGpxYUmnCZa1PnUt8MNQA2e8fYsD ZgopZ3ZhLxYQuTDtQ9q+tfMCuiLI/AzyFSopLPwpY5/a2jJ8HSYFG5ujVgVNtmD4TJIuhNpWg xwRwHvfp4xX15a/ztBhIggir/73FzBxJ1tTmU+usQ1XVMj3Ljt1avqXjaZ9Pq6glvMkGIpRnk O7x4PgZhzW2nvbhEj1heuOH7YmC4AydSJFjhbt2u1P6Evfdh8NEFXJLSnRuQuK4IPDsGLkbad D3vFXbXincLrieWkYw+bc4dn6PWjiQCFaAMrr8/JOsW5C5ipxmU93A0m6cRrayl+A5xRGlU4b tfq+La8AFAR70EjVRrmhIv23FMOkFewTDrLo0aQsuEk8t66hGaJCCfezcFwh9X8y93/NEwpe/ Bw1dPzHMXRF0iqZ/sjX0GeQZOyi54NW5MzYoluEUjDI2pn0a2O9fwM0dh26jCYmnJw2x0L25N C5WEaPSyx4AcY0Fa2UkTlCz/3sdtutl2TxGsFkxZkpvvwIE3EHJ19C6h/Us/0mgKvo7DI/BHf rxFQld1dbylfD/nNIVH1SPkJAPGryH95UMhCNFdZeOWJ4oS8HNCoxJvhKYIETvF5qQYQl9U8o udYyMfHI3MTu1qDl9YDMVvkcVWUsYeqmZ/2blESwVEdZq8wZo+7xo0XraOdrElSrUGn6ZSwYS ofiNq8j9VMgJY/XVJpWm2ezdiTxyHG3Fa8PwYTkcK/o+1zxlcDeqRf09qbqTLbTW6tZy60NPk oWeb7DZg8oqFZ8pM1HhG7nfR5lmz4Va/HtsOOWMYYK3UpdwmzqOwVr9dp1HyQPXmte5/1zdtE oPjEYVken89oXmb1nEBQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:25:39 -0000 Am 29.10.2020 um 19:06 schrieb Toerless Eckert: > ... > the v3 xml, at least the normalized version spit out by the conversion i= s now > even less human producable, so i will certainly be attempting to do kram= down > or the like on my next work. Too bad it can't be directly uploaded to > datatracker. > ... v3 xml in general is *easier* to author than v2 xml. Depending on the size of your source, it might easier to do the conversion "by hand". (In general, the only thing that *requires* changes are the elements). > ... Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Oct 29 11:31:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249423A09E1 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2oThN_L7eCP for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FD1B3A09D9 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:31:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603996260; bh=ei9JPrc/8mEi6cVuqChsdttCu+VC4HFf5aDgXYF/HnQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=adpVsoJj/1/YNJ6OA7kilNlriW4jxrxFwCE6GXrmt9OwLc9oZ85MNRsBvmFpsR6c4 cSebJpjNnO18FzDjG79vTqPl1L99K4mcvDkI9mE6X1g1eh8daZTHHjh196/tJHifdG Q/4Hh/SDr9FP8UKt6stY8xKdrhT1EMUW3Jy3J7yI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.62.12]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MbAcs-1jww4i0TP6-00bXJQ for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:31:00 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <15fcd205-ed65-305c-d0e2-43261d19f56f@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:30:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:te/WXIHHr6qIXHNF0xjfuLb9v07llvdZDQKz5ADBYGqX7uTop+C pDeS9dZZK8yG/khxMqcv45ffmGIcknq3UU8fxAFAbknkYLEOsX2/i0Ww/XrXeONL9/LZB7/ ekAy0FWpoA30a+MGBkGXERIm1A1mkXSldddPo4TaUkRdCjcP8qzpYWq/R968yFHoMXI/yn7 DyR8upQ/Z8aEKW09pJkYg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:NU3WIaO7Hig=:OZPfC95quzloq76dTyhonB qXvV/KdOXrBcupVglGcjMFc7wQKIwMf3YLFqseZvrwmbaU0y/KVTBCPhMu+2omRiTc+j58pL8 v1u55wugfn0+q1KF7BeuXS/emtNQysMh8n+yr2wHrMvq8R2uDZGKmACeO13cLfjOzrLsYlDjH NZ/2sZA3WrUl94FZzZ0wP2glTl44MeBMKVTWXn6/3O1CxFNP12mPNyb0pbyksCeAtWMr+ddrt fwK2ZmD6pj6Rjrg4d3bUDnGgu7RVtFXlskpEEgvdz/DjQl6N81ObDjlRVKkTYy+nj2KZfBTU0 Rgn2pzXWKJvwmy4FTObCwOqb09rgtIQynvrdmv014YDf/kHMpPgwnO31fHF3Ma0iVNTNkCIw4 bZNSf1djQn+VqQKj7Ymdd9WOBm5fgKazKKoQIGNP6PlijTibhyNkVjrBgs31ZJ9BNEw812nmC sSbjsMlxLPxNFDMeBi1Am8aCBbeQKZ8CIlyjB8+DUTbfcL6nA0xAYU+whKY17t6HXOEGcjLl7 qN4vuJ3qnwN4udxFu6YCzZPzTNDO5Ow80ciZH34geYoO7P8ee56zrGdu6/gWVfR2iQLCUl0bQ qRWd537I3dQ9xV7RVmF7ixvj7Tw7wqruvTjopDNRmZbJLEFyA8WOg3/Aj+awTeT1YH2j6YEWz OG50Vu5wUksHjyDdYAGXSiA4IyKwrW1yICV/Il2zFbR/76WNnKUBDbnnZCCNzUWk5vkgF2bFB Vid+SctYmNKA9moxa7OK0Ttyn4N1Payf2DWoHOBjE8GhXfzpn1OGxEHgX992B8X6ci3rBRUxS dHkhyvHMXJs7SjWo0lyDvp7JlTuyZj5NU3CukiySYRhLEkhnEFXrGlfmTUYAJv7prrJ/VvzKI TUFvlWuKPpWBci2syq1g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:31:08 -0000 Am 29.10.2020 um 19:25 schrieb Julian Reschke: > Am 29.10.2020 um 19:06 schrieb Toerless Eckert: >> ... >> the v3 xml, at least the normalized version spit out by the conversion >> is now >> even less human producable, so i will certainly be attempting to do >> kramdown >> or the like on my next work. Too bad it can't be directly uploaded to >> datatracker. >> ... > > v3 xml in general is *easier* to author than v2 xml. Depending on the > size of your source, it might easier to do the conversion "by hand". (In > general, the only thing that *requires* changes are the elements)= . > ... ...and s (sorry, forgot that one). Best regards, Julian PS: these are "deprecated" in v3, and the idea was that they would be supported by processors until we actually *remove* them in a future version. However, I don't think xml2rfc's v3 mode accepts them. From nobody Thu Oct 29 11:58:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553793A005D for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otUsi8cUc3z2 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D92893A003F for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 11:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C17C548068; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:58:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 73763440059; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:58:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:58:20 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Julian Reschke Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201029185820.GD48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:58:28 -0000 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 07:25:33PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 29.10.2020 um 19:06 schrieb Toerless Eckert: > > ... > > the v3 xml, at least the normalized version spit out by the conversion is now > > even less human producable, so i will certainly be attempting to do kramdown > > or the like on my next work. Too bad it can't be directly uploaded to > > datatracker. > > ... > > v3 xml in general is *easier* to author than v2 xml. Depending on the > size of your source, it might easier to do the conversion "by hand". (In > general, the only thing that *requires* changes are the elements). Hmm. Maybe i may be a victim of the conversion script on the IETF web age which seem so have converted a lot of stuff into longer variants. But thin that you now always need two lines to a title (separate tag if i am not mistaken). The worst part was that i couldn't find a replacement for the perfectly simple form of references in v2: I ended up having to figure out the crappy &rfc4941 methods, which wasn't documented for v3 on the xml2rfc pages. Why does the 'include' method not work anymore ? Cheers Toerless > > > ... > > Best regards, Julian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Oct 29 12:23:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003FC3A0858 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:23:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IHI-dMYFXG2X for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A47B23A07BD for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:23:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603999393; bh=2KKDp9XulrMstJtDoGYgL3ZBh49LTRx4LPHqcrr3biE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=VlsymrpE1fY0sZ8diZcWFn5jwyP9n2fwQD+bPUO3FRO7ibMqC0fdB3TZx5DARfkrk BmUe1NDAfHkj+3yj6dZbF1+KeOl+nhX2/vSCrV7fyJBXiLR7KB3zLRsku3GFdAKnU6 iEYw1eSd1TxMaJ5I/NNLW7ytb1SpC8pB1hF2lVAc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.62.12]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M1Hdw-1kVTQZ1tHO-002qYn; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 20:23:13 +0100 To: Toerless Eckert Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20201029185820.GD48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 20:23:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201029185820.GD48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:dSvfuOXo0X5uYwwj5aKOhatdxMPW6F04/RvkHDfXut6bCVrJGvx RR25hs58H1NadfJjOr0OdtvbmaM911GI7U2+raelOQY5E3EEJdws4OoXOAd3w23f489AV0d yENOVLW6LL2VtvhaMpb4Hfh02J9RIw0GKIoeThToCgBQPV2yrXYcMfPvQ+haWfF4ghbxoIS swPDe0slQcqKKCHaMWGqQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:zEZvz1NqmgI=:IvL+ZTLMpQPoG/f9htdBzc Biqa89bg0+sm+aB6+GxnFz8YRjM1yrFaKstbigYTRe4FhOuFnClTxozis6c8405k/yQriY3z1 7icGBNeefwxOaogO0Qd23ZjS7SbK0WGW5S14OR02tKgHCpm8JOzFMVzsO526YwywzHJUPBl0q /2168ZYPjS9enExuJBbE/BmtHeIzxMvx3PAs+lt+h2+bEDs5zV4wZ2FtJTmX5aIyifpp3lRWX l3bupZNKUORdH74v5fxky0Es1odcj9eHxvhKnZ3agPl9FuZSatGE1DDuXJ0EOhbca1LJRaCZn 7jnLudWPcYvHdOXxRed6panH6Koby9qRaNglkoP6loF2F7cS6b0JMtu1Bedyj4f1D+vFDgDbT NkgsjTdgq1JFbtAhHnX320iNb4PcTSPhM0rbGerKvxBodQTrKIdfsHKs4bFB/0NmNLWFF4iKX yFpFWAFAJLfwMuuhnEgKXC1yM1X6LuhulTSj5VloPLewxu7cDGAiD9j7b5m7gjqVn1uQN/O8Y hkwBvs/JG42X17xW0HAnVZ2NgUaMwDN0mrWVIbJLCNGQlLRAfYyBxxjsNbh4P8zz8dBXoTUzG GPpxSkx4squTNinyss4lK2+fjK1IkzZHYuWjQ2ZOO7T1TYUCIprPZxAYE1IM+zBWTnNeZJcxK F2ZBgxGmgNxUdRERydq2KAB7Nq5fgj0aodjxvZFW2nZozQyTregXAFEy20qjkuUUtHumjAl2Z xCtWA+cV1c2efKQhNkCvF/pR9Yo9Hjby3UXo9AQaqp2v7tWdobDpqy1nfRM0PfPfi4TqJNboX BxS9taT1xlZkZeL5Cz+qogelDFwhBV4B823mujcZXI9cacdVoWi2LDCsGvNYxwUdlMWBzk8nI aDdlbIv3cm+Bca7UIGLg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:23:23 -0000 Am 29.10.2020 um 19:58 schrieb Toerless Eckert: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 07:25:33PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: >> Am 29.10.2020 um 19:06 schrieb Toerless Eckert: >>> ... >>> the v3 xml, at least the normalized version spit out by the conversion= is now >>> even less human producable, so i will certainly be attempting to do kr= amdown >>> or the like on my next work. Too bad it can't be directly uploaded to >>> datatracker. >>> ... >> >> v3 xml in general is *easier* to author than v2 xml. Depending on the >> size of your source, it might easier to do the conversion "by hand". (I= n >> general, the only thing that *requires* changes are the elements= ). > > Hmm. Maybe i may be a victim of the conversion script on the IETF web ag= e which seem > so have converted a lot of stuff into longer variants. But thin that > you now always need two lines to a title (separate tag if i am no= t mistaken). No, the title attribute is still supposed to work. > The worst part was that i couldn't find a replacement for the perfectly = simple > form of references in v2: > > > > I ended up having to figure out the crappy &rfc4941 methods, which wasn'= t documented > for v3 on the xml2rfc pages. > > Why does the 'include' method not work anymore ? It was never a part of the official v2 vocabulary; processing instructions are essentially a hack, and specific to a concrete implementation. RFC 7991 has x:include, with an example in . Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Oct 29 12:33:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FAF3A0BEE; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:33:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X0RFCmbzqPCO; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4C8F3A0A6F; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 12:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0A1548068; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 20:33:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B2761440059; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 20:33:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 20:33:04 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Julian Reschke Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201029193304.GE48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20201029185820.GD48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc doc/feature - was: Re: structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:33:22 -0000 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 08:23:12PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: (on prior thread on tools-discuss) > No, the title attribute is still supposed to work. Ok. victim of the v2 -> v3 conversion script then. Would be great if that conversion script would overall use the most compact & easily human editable version of encoding options. > > Why does the 'include' method not work anymore ? > > It was never a part of the official v2 vocabulary; processing > instructions are essentially a hack, and specific to a concrete > implementation. Thanks. > RFC 7991 has x:include, with an example in > . Excellent. Who could replace or amend the "Use the XML external entity mechanism" section on the https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ page with that IMHO mch better method ? Cc'ing xml2rfc@ietf.org which hopefully has someone who is responsible for the page. > > Best regards, Julian Thanks a lot! Toerless From nobody Thu Oct 29 15:33:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6953A02C1 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 15:33:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JG7N28Hsoxb3 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95A103A03EE for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF72389D9; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id cisWNbFbKgiC; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B94A389C1; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE88859A; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:33:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Toerless Eckert , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 22:33:32 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Toerless Eckert wrote: > Indeed i did wanted to have the structured contributor section to make > such automation easier. No idea if tools team or Jari actually do ben= efit > from it today though. Tools teal doesn't seem to capture contirbutors= for > stats, and i guess Jari is doing lots of pattern matching. Yes, he is. > So, are you suggesting that the tools team should add to the list of > RFC "authored" on a datatracker person page also the list of draft/RFC > contributed to ? I dunno: there were lots of objections last year, but a major one was what about the previous 8000 RFCs? So, it would be nice if could fix this for t= he next 8000. > If yes, then +1. As a WG chair i think any incentives we can give to = get > more contributors is highly desirable for IETF. That's what I hope. >> On the contributor side, it would be nice if they knew that their na= me was >> there, in part so that they could object! > Except i don't buy the "they could object" part. I don't think one > should add contributors without having a good upfront understanding > that its a) true, and b) welcome. And then of course also send With such strong connection, I could get a notice when my name goes in. That would allow errors to be corrected. It could be that they got the wrong person. (Do you who actor "Michael Rich= ards" is?) There have been cases where people have inserted co-authors to attempt to imply approval! >> So I'm thinking that it would be cool if we could do something like: >> >> >> [Not sure how I'd do this in kramdown. New "ietfdtemail:" tag or som= ething] >> >> to get the contributor and/or author information sucked in documents. > Would be good if this would equally work for acknowledgements, except > that only the name would show up in the rendered output. Exactly. > No idea about your formatting proposal, but getting stuff automatical= ly from email addresses > would be great. Just lets make sure we don't eliminate support for no= n-email address > based acks/contributors. Heck, we even have authors for which we do n= ot have > email addresses published (e.g.: retireees like Steve Deering, rfc820= 0). Of course, you can just write out the full contributor part as we do now instead of using the include magic. > A followup question would then be if/how we might want to render > hotlink capable output formats: Include URL to datatracker page of th= e person ? Nobody lets me do UX since I started using Dark Golden Rod as my background. >> This is just stuff to code, no changes to the XML scheme required, A= FAIK. > Is there an API on datatracker to look up a person from an email addr= ess > so a renderer could find a person that way ? Could be used both > from the kramdown script as well as from a later renderer. Yes, I think that there is already. And I think the DT has some GDRP controls on it already. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+bQzcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXt0AgAqdf5bsYBrmrQaVnsQOHnYbOqDvXo78ftSq5zyRAD9b/Ax/24i1o1U9Wf PQGRVzU8qkBYYh1V4hkV5xMo0QzvSYqZBcBA7IMVe34xlTetlWEXlXPHSjV5/7gT YMMesBIGALPhWi+WwIeJmC+geF9Nl6Xry6LtI17PCoQBlek4vSqW/kX35L4tT1Ag OZkq5SrUuQJWRjAGtq9mXa2lK8RbmYjYKM2tBV88fCY3djYu9DjdAX9csg9F77gW 1IbEB4LZDBfDzYtMlpaGcL1qWRO/07JsT+yTh500ANqYBu9x6IKaR24sCo3qK56q AY7Xb8/OYq93PXy8DXLEYQW4i9UPUA== =jevu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 10:54:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938AC3A108E for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 10:54:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id msnd2V446yoB for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 10:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 468E83A108D for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 10:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC30548054; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:54:26 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 35D94440059; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:54:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:54:26 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss Message-ID: <20201030175426.GA44129@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <17582.1603990304@localhost> <20201029180658.GC48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <10173.1604010807@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <10173.1604010807@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] structured contributor section --- auto-reference to DT/Person? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 17:54:34 -0000 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 06:33:27PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > > So, are you suggesting that the tools team should add to the list of > > RFC "authored" on a datatracker person page also the list of draft/RFC > > contributed to ? > > I dunno: there were lots of objections last year, but a major one was what > about the previous 8000 RFCs? that is a great argument. Translatef from german it is the manslaughter argument. "das haben wir noch nie so gemacht" - "we have never done that" "das haben wir immer schon anders gemacht" - "we have always done it differently" "da koennte ja jeder kommen" - "who are you ?" > So, it would be nice if could fix this for the next 8000. Note that the (I) in IETF does not stand for Innovation. > > If yes, then +1. As a WG chair i think any incentives we can give to get > > more contributors is highly desirable for IETF. > > That's what I hope. But who wants to revive the IETF. > >> On the contributor side, it would be nice if they knew that their name was > >> there, in part so that they could object! > > > Except i don't buy the "they could object" part. I don't think one > > should add contributors without having a good upfront understanding > > that its a) true, and b) welcome. And then of course also send > > With such strong connection, I could get a notice when my name goes in. > That would allow errors to be corrected. > It could be that they got the wrong person. (Do you who actor "Michael Richards" is?) ;-) > There have been cases where people have inserted co-authors to attempt to > imply approval! Yes indeed. I guess what i wanted to say is that automatic tooling should not be used as an excuse NOT to also reach out explicitly to folks who you think deserve to be contributors and let them know. Cheers Toerless > Nobody lets me do UX since I started using Dark Golden Rod as my background. > > >> This is just stuff to code, no changes to the XML scheme required, AFAIK. > > > Is there an API on datatracker to look up a person from an email address > > so a renderer could find a person that way ? Could be used both > > from the kramdown script as well as from a later renderer. > > Yes, I think that there is already. > And I think the DT has some GDRP controls on it already. > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 IT consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide -- --- tte@cs.fau.de