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Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:36:52 +0000 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Henrik Levkowetz From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:36:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: BL1PR13CA0141.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:2bb::26) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by BL1PR13CA0141.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:2bb::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3541.10 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:36:51 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4ed326af-88fc-482f-5062-08d87ffd85bb X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MN2PR14MB4078: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:8882; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: labn.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4ed326af-88fc-482f-5062-08d87ffd85bb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2020 13:36:52.0800 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: eb60ac54-2184-4344-9b60-40c8b2b72561 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: bOLv5mCIKCQAaFTxyjf59OjPhaQ+Cxb5n3wZ1rGdC3tgtzRVLEQq1ynYnBv7Z7wX1B42VoFaMfbk1ekPmwc72Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR14MB4078 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 13:36:56 -0000 Hi, I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the previously reported (resolved?) error: Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml  draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external request: "reference.RFC.2119" the version info is: > pip3 show xml2rfc Name: xml2rfc Version: 3.3.0 Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ Author: Henrik Levkowetz Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org License: BSD-3-Clause Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, google-i18n-address, kitchen Required-by: I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 Is there a known solution to this? Thanks, Lou From nobody Tue Nov 3 05:40:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5913A0A9C for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 05:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVnK0JMjk3-h for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 05:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C6B73A0A9B for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 05:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:59296 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kZwXw-0005bk-Gb; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 05:40:24 -0800 To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:40:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qm8xIIHwtEJQhbJhh6CmXVGJaRFqu5sJM" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 13:40:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qm8xIIHwtEJQhbJhh6CmXVGJaRFqu5sJM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ktRn7B4gBjXe8QjkSaiEiu9TLHfTjJGDS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> --ktRn7B4gBjXe8QjkSaiEiu9TLHfTjJGDS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the=20 > previously reported (resolved?) error: >=20 > Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external=20 > request: "reference.RFC.2119" >=20 > the version info is: >=20 > > pip3 show xml2rfc > Name: xml2rfc > Version: 3.3.0 > Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in= =20 > XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. > Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ > Author: Henrik Levkowetz > Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org > License: BSD-3-Clause > Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages > Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml,=20 > configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2,=20 > google-i18n-address, kitchen > Required-by: >=20 > I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >=20 > Is there a known solution to this? Could you provide the xml source, please? Henrik --ktRn7B4gBjXe8QjkSaiEiu9TLHfTjJGDS-- --qm8xIIHwtEJQhbJhh6CmXVGJaRFqu5sJM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl+hXcEACgkQTptXS4+7 FxodBA/+KaeqKEE/o8uXqO4l40MS5giRwaFHTeLa9s980Nq7xZ4NUQzvGY64FZyF mUG4+AWvfI1Z6gqlGtP+aBfkVovvB9056cty16nu1QZbek5emNM1AejqDLOs6UMJ Bl81MuzqFZqg3DpLp2f48R2fzOrFjFO0temyjMglJynmCsB7KCY1P+zd9wIytsII /MdOnu18HtcnyqVYECnQ3G2Jln0P79DnvPb3hRelrhXVKJvNimWHvX9DsRH3RAAG 1H95a87wHyJPI2xeNxBPqGgD0JpSCW37sMHUY4+QU1jRHtcE05+iN5sdI3GC4XYf 2wMQJqztPCBRxKHqf34+TzAIQ7O5JrSrKTZxn5k7qOiudOlV0VYDdW1DwxrRT9CO r1jW1SSLtU2eY0+K2FPVh0vFZAmw3z6wj+O7n8gHHJdscfr151dOBsI8KAPqGz07 Mrd0WpYfXpdR8x3dp7Z6sFltdGKK27sIxwABL79z1FXBo/fWoBSyV9lgNl6EID8R GBGPWhMhGgc3brjUyHMS0UFku2wtNoXIUXND/VzmTVsEXLBmTZxU5VAb7B0PputK 6WxX+BretlEYjnjnSNx0HcbYvAVpmITMXE/wL5cZNC+iCYgfDSvgIE7aypup8aft SkNAwdygCINBz3MtmDAR77Ntk0TuKXFh6EWlOYekpg8Udkz69nU= =o7L6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qm8xIIHwtEJQhbJhh6CmXVGJaRFqu5sJM-- From nobody Tue Nov 3 05:47:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B219C3A0A9C for ; 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Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:47:25 +0000 To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:47:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 In-Reply-To: <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: BL0PR02CA0073.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:51::14) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by BL0PR02CA0073.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:51::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.19 via Frontend Transport; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: labn.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2f143ea8-f09d-47c0-6712-08d87ffefeea X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2020 13:47:24.9026 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: eb60ac54-2184-4344-9b60-40c8b2b72561 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: rt5k/YJajwIL6ItxsPVOq+MfIX2i64ul9mfz5FhuflC5R2OL067mb+dG/Sen/xEvB9bbc3F+YtrUHJ66IthCaw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR14MB3698 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 13:47:29 -0000 Hi Henrik, Thanks for the quick response.  I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is from the public repo.  Is this sufficient? Lou On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Lou, > > On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >> previously reported (resolved?) error: >> >> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >> >> the version info is: >> >> > pip3 show xml2rfc >> Name: xml2rfc >> Version: 3.3.0 >> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in >> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >> License: BSD-3-Clause >> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, >> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >> google-i18n-address, kitchen >> Required-by: >> >> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >> >> Is there a known solution to this? > Could you provide the xml source, please? > > > Henrik > From nobody Tue Nov 3 05:47:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF1A3A0B65 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 05:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggA6K8uqCA3J for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 05:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51BDF3A0B67 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 05:47:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604411250; bh=J6jMC33JGed2VmrJO1lOikWKxhk/6LJob9m07tnPwYk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NkPU8oeTKBaWoK7kp/+IyxKhvIokH0Qc474ixdW/SOj5l3zVash2zBBQkQwC/JIED A+vixEGSUsOmDxkC2M50LidJ1euPWVHdeiK++ge+jmsPgCESgKrNHKHTUZe3awazOf SCgFbcfvbzZ9B8PKannh4n9rWUNNVkTt7rA6hnLc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MFbW0-1kZOgO07o6-00H9yw for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 14:47:30 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <0871ceb3-4be1-98a9-dd21-bb7c04b00c2e@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:47:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wshwS3oONGa7zSTUWSVRNiw6CfTxiKwur6sJqFwdQ6GT5XtbMcI Lyuhb6qEU3leY3OGXt1H5ttyK6g4oVHA1D5XmKOU9pty56g0hjFE+15v2xk7f0Vg9MnEfgZ lW+tUhEHgba1MCLQTJVq2ocUu0ed2vMHgF63hdWEAqKCuWdp+dFKiG3A9gKSrBprd/n1B4o C40PiJUTeueN/0IO60FKA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:PK1+S3G9Twg=:pEn9YO/7pQarmtneOwpw/l 6bw2UAt9iA85tzyEphcBeKsxiA2EjYG1NspWo2OC+kJYXPSZQbYL1ZYf46R6gXtjYN5gGLibP n0C2wHuM2Gh0xvHnwZSTUlprMEWyFTknXRRc/9iODIfHydxa/sPKQ9kD8EltS2dJghWbXnFyg dmZwwB8GBMfX4N8ftGzkT8LhNiX+0qGorpjVEScjjYC2fAKFPdyI0PPlenea53ZO74BPQM1Z/ oKRyih3YIxUmzBOeZ+YAcZ7Y7souqdaulxdt1/QCZkdfq6BcWpdMyOQQ8N2TCNyHUEveSwi+V w1J1oIBT4BNlrNJHd8R0uX4HwaH5kesaQJ3C4qTgIS4pfs5aRFU2+gezLRPlXlneL56L1AB8U k16kol3GLiYui0xG7oXMAO2AmiyDfZZuAdOIEQl+l/Tp+fuNeQ0d6d1BdJJYKxx4TeXO9qtt3 4lmywKQK0TxeqNswMKi1KtLxotXdParsFFgOAfbCQT9AkP1xIZYiFEa4CU4V84U7l4P+KHqkZ mP4lHW0KtWNZiVHPaqeolOImuQS5X53oprmna88fphXWiGZMBkyQeuWDLc8pk7JxinD8KYH2I qMeVig0SLyeMGP+TS2rXqLrzT/b43QRz45EWCdhq5D0rmBrzN0+GeMjutVtjFPLVJJBh4CVUv iRqqfvGCLbGz73t/jMQlxuheuabFQHPAy9NhlXIjM1/Bdtk9IgSkB8fdGAocj+3AKLq3p8ddF J+ucbS94oZFwZ7UD5l6r9TIvkxkrb11B2zbH+yK75KJ9j8v6X+LsqGaO+beC4pZDgwSui6YZj iwQmTecH/tDeisYRuyaLvr4VxPrdDKI7fW4O2hgjFXXZOeHcTGz2tmgB8ZSj/wxG1LLgaYBA/ pT88d8M8iV7RslzILSPQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 13:47:35 -0000 Am 03.11.2020 um 14:36 schrieb Lou Berger: > Hi, > > I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the > previously reported (resolved?) error: > > Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > =C2=A0draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external > request: "reference.RFC.2119" > > the version info is: > ... How do you include the reference? Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Nov 3 06:20:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C97C3A0B5C for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:20:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5jsXqWpwgIxv for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 260833A0B57 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:59743 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kZxAA-00033y-6u; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 06:19:54 -0800 To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:19:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xbpmq82r1vGgUT7LhECkF6rqb4IUkbGxn" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 14:20:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xbpmq82r1vGgUT7LhECkF6rqb4IUkbGxn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eAvjh9AahjaDBRsg0XO3jX56hRmXwxX1V"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> --eAvjh9AahjaDBRsg0XO3jX56hRmXwxX1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Henrik, >=20 > Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; = > pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is= =20 > from the public repo. Is this sufficient? No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml Henrik >=20 > Lou >=20 > On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi Lou, >> >> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>> >>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>> >>> the version info is: >>> >>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>> Name: xml2rfc >>> Version: 3.3.0 >>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source = in >>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml,= >>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>> Required-by: >>> >>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>> >>> Is there a known solution to this? >> Could you provide the xml source, please? >> >> >> Henrik >> >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --eAvjh9AahjaDBRsg0XO3jX56hRmXwxX1V-- --xbpmq82r1vGgUT7LhECkF6rqb4IUkbGxn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:23:24 +0000 To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:23:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 In-Reply-To: <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: MN2PR01CA0033.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10b6:208:10c::46) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by MN2PR01CA0033.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10b6:208:10c::46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.19 via Frontend Transport; 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I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; >> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is >> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? > No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > > > Henrik > >> Lou >> >> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> Hi Lou, >>> >>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>> >>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>> >>>> the version info is: >>>> >>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in >>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, >>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>> Required-by: >>>> >>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>> >>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>> >>> >>> Henrik >>> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> From nobody Tue Nov 3 06:30:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EAC3A0BA1 for ; 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Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:30:20 +0000 From: Lou Berger To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <2e1c48d9-764f-b435-383c-11b741a791fb@labn.net> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:30:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: BL1PR13CA0172.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:2bd::27) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by BL1PR13CA0172.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:2bd::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3541.10 via Frontend Transport; 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I went on to a very old install, and was successful using python 2 and xml2rfc Version: 2.22.3 -- it worked as expected. On the same machine I then upgraded to 3.3.0 and got the same error Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-mpls.xml  draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-mpls.xml: Line 651: Unable to resolve external request: "reference.RFC.2119" Lou On 11/3/2020 9:23 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml > > Lou > > On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Hi Lou, >> >> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Hi Henrik, >>> >>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; >>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is >>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >> >> >> Henrik >> >>> Lou >>> >>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>> Hi Lou, >>>> >>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>> >>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>> >>>>> the version info is: >>>>> >>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in >>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, >>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>> Required-by: >>>>> >>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>> >>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>> >>>> >>>> Henrik >>>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> From nobody Tue Nov 3 06:38:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3E53A0BC6 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:38:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQ-0_NIg4G3y for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 243443A08FA for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:38:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604414284; bh=nVbQJqUmVyBZqzngCEPYVh1LCgqzsxm6fQGqg6BfcaI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HKFQKJdQ8HdE33OE3wQj7Kmr8bxC0hFNchdwHdFLglHrNGoCiIHJtsYw5T+d9OjaV E8BR7SDhgUk/K2+GwqSfrm/vHL+DfRlyrsLB7AT3LeqTKI9AuY92rOI8ORJH3Pxd1A xjW9fI3nKFuD9txflRaLkmy+AVGg1Ir2km+SJiQ0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MBlxW-1kUQ4m1IrM-00C8xJ for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 15:38:04 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:38:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:gcX2viqhNObKLSqFiUtcFgFAGnM8TL74Hi8DX+e36j3tmC2+l4D 2edCDJVI1sei1ftSUKWtYYWcFI7rQcSJ4iEGBIa+9+WYZ0ZNt0wHNPVh9pWZ34zHUNB+bKl q+zUqZCsHh1KL2d5AHk5MwthYbJoAHhjGFZLhH2d27tIBF+nyGPfhtyjoc/XAOt+kWuve6y FhcwKYW9ZxJeDXBdJP1CQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:neP8Otfbvpc=:ftqkoVaYJfPf/nWxlwopWZ PHfkpwKLi3zfqkMGP00elTYQ6Tq+EHP06jNaCOEo70mOF1qu3x5YMNuC6a74jmYbgMdemwt96 dyxLTrlgNy3DqFqH+JOkMlLStre8LtKZcKZGNxBSAI9I3c2uoInlBjY/0uNHO2vdhoYoanj8k uPEZ3rBJEcPXNI7dcwyewcdq+77IhvaPciO+tSF/iYjpwwMu2V35+GKhFj8BTJsEXXjIYHxyn kNKuuJCs+fb68kzjJsNBH3QxZeKbSkf4Lh0Fj/rza7KqRdhtDttKaUjZAA9dkrZi+XsH//fEv LIJOyL8U4BLsBIjlzCd9j85ihBo01KrphoGpBk3qlec9k6ThZqt/ZtrPnEkhp0ouv3diuVAbH Wftkj9frP+Eu0QgRPRXx9dtLUYOKXBdlGsEOlwYepmYhaCbPlUwEemiCyH1CaONsnzJjX5HqV R5ldeYYeakmrZD41RCP311Eb7zdPucART4RY2O2OqzNBm54zCPUNu4ihC4S5DpRrKllVoLqoL 5smXWnrmKwBS9k7MaAuXGR3+Kuik1yAuG1qxANmfKQsEHvOBvSAq7AiHuTgsOAPbIqqReun9O zAxgB15PX6d+qXd5v4IVbwD7SlX50kRlsKYCp5fJLRB1iR+ApLNsgJu6gthdZr9PsWf4ksblW sy1zwRYN92gJLJJNRgxNAlHItDo4s5x9QOYmx0eIbcbSgzqFWUl4L8ZmYzMt4LktecYINABYj zRf9pt+rGfjeXpdKtcEDLUAIX1gxn3l5Xp3rF2QEx53Pn4W5yuSr4yn6B4sFfII16JEYoVVDN VWw1otYh2iMHKBMDNtbbqPD8n53xL4+2dCYMXrOgW76KFcaOI3pkjrHEEtu1wYQorEVeOFBT6 ihDXWWH9Ylgufc67y/xg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 14:38:09 -0000 Am 03.11.2020 um 15:23 schrieb Lou Berger: > Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xm= l > ... So xml2rfc -v --html draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml gives: Parsing file draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml Resolving entity... /projects/xml2rfc/rfc2629.dtd Resolving entity... /projects/xml2rfc/rfc2629-xhtml.ent Resolving entity... /projects/xml2rfc/rfc2629-other.ent Resolving entity... /projects/xml2rfc/rfc2629.dtd Resolving entity... /projects/xml2rfc/rfc2629-xhtml.ent Resolving entity... /projects/xml2rfc/rfc2629-other.ent Resolving include... https://xml2rfc.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119 ... 301 https://xml2rfc.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119 ... 404 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119 URL retrieval failed with status code 404 for 'https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119' Resolving include... https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119 ... 404 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119 URL retrieval failed with status code 404 for 'https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.2119' ...appending ".xml" to the processing instruction seems to fix it. Not sure whether this is a change in xml2rfc or the reference file server. FWIW, you wouldn't have this problem if you either supplied a full URI for the reference, or just pasted it into your source code once and for all (it's immutable anyway, right?). Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Nov 3 06:57:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE6743A0C92 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:57:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3pIZI8-3YtE for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA6013A0D32 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:60056 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kZxkA-0002HO-Mo; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 06:57:07 -0800 To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:56:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9KsoBl783E63ctAwQb3QhQKK38jtmttNx" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 14:57:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9KsoBl783E63ctAwQb3QhQKK38jtmttNx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="seXnuv3eHbpVTJfcdGhJ7iCDqpQOtjRbF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: --seXnuv3eHbpVTJfcdGhJ7iCDqpQOtjRbF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: > Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.x= ml Thank you. This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include paths. With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the= schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is converted to v3 schema internally. One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handl= e inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to be complete and correct, or fail. (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the XInclude spec. and had to go.) There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 converter: * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of use * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and formatter instances * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missin= g reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. Best regards, Henrik >=20 > Lou >=20 > On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >=20 >> Hi Lou, >> >> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Hi Henrik, >>> >>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip= ; >>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever = is >>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >> >> >> Henrik >> >>> Lou >>> >>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>> Hi Lou, >>>> >>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>> >>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml= >>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve extern= al >>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>> >>>>> the version info is: >>>>> >>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document sourc= e in >>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxm= l, >>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>> Required-by: >>>>> >>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>> >>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>> >>>> >>>> Henrik >>>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --seXnuv3eHbpVTJfcdGhJ7iCDqpQOtjRbF-- --9KsoBl783E63ctAwQb3QhQKK38jtmttNx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:46:53 +0000 To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:46:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: BL1PR13CA0070.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:2b8::15) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by BL1PR13CA0070.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:2b8::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3541.10 via Frontend Transport; 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CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(39830400003)(346002)(136003)(366004)(396003)(31696002)(83380400001)(8936002)(86362001)(2906002)(53546011)(8676002)(31686004)(26005)(36756003)(52116002)(186003)(16526019)(6486002)(66476007)(66556008)(66946007)(956004)(19273905006)(16576012)(316002)(2616005)(6706004)(478600001)(5660300002)(966005)(78286007)(43740500002)(563064011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: labn.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3a4dc3c1-6984-4a4f-2ee7-08d8800faf9e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2020 15:46:53.5733 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: eb60ac54-2184-4344-9b60-40c8b2b72561 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: ldYKG8tNnYVDlTBTyHGZ6ARxUETbB6UPlaQFX6AoP8BrY7yc8a1GeqKSkUKNGWoWNKKhgxK2CKz2vlP4HfOUuA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR14MB3503 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 15:47:03 -0000 Hi Henrik, adding the --legacy flag did the trick.  Is there someway to auto-detect use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in, schemas/versions? Thanks again, Lou On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Lou, > > On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: >> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml > Thank you. > > This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include > paths. > > With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the > schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is > converted to v3 schema internally. > > One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle > inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does > not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to > be complete and correct, or fail. > > (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of > fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the > XInclude spec. and had to go.) > > There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one > which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 > converter: > > * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of > use > > > * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and > formatter instances > > * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing > reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. > > > Best regards, > > Henrik >> Lou >> >> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> >>> Hi Lou, >>> >>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> Hi Henrik, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; >>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is >>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>> >>> >>> Henrik >>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>>> >>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>>> >>>>>> the version info is: >>>>>> >>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in >>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, >>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>>> Required-by: >>>>>> >>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Henrik >>>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>> >>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>> >>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> From nobody Tue Nov 3 07:52:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C373A0D31 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:52:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TOkJ8-hAiigl for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE9413A097A for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:60533 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kZybd-0004I3-TX; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 07:52:22 -0800 To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <092fbfb3-5eee-0a6f-209e-e3f8dbcf10b5@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:52:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pdUM07qXrJiVNBaaQcx3fN5WCbdw4QqSu" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 15:52:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pdUM07qXrJiVNBaaQcx3fN5WCbdw4QqSu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dRx4pFl4osGpC75nmmp07etcm7PcfAeQG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <092fbfb3-5eee-0a6f-209e-e3f8dbcf10b5@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: --dRx4pFl4osGpC75nmmp07etcm7PcfAeQG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 16:46, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Henrik, >=20 > adding the --legacy flag did the trick. Is there someway to auto-detec= t=20 > use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has= =20 > worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in,=20 > schemas/versions? Not for the 3.x releases. For that, you should install the last of the 2= =2Ex series -- it should be good enough for most purposes for quite some time.= Best regards, Henrik >=20 > Thanks again, >=20 > Lou >=20 > On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi Lou, >> >> On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13= =2Exml >> Thank you. >> >> This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include >> paths. >> >> With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use = the >> schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is >> converted to v3 schema internally. >> >> One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to ha= ndle >> inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it doe= s >> not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have = to >> be complete and correct, or fail. >> >> (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of >> fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the >> XInclude spec. and had to go.) >> >> There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and o= ne >> which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-= v3 >> converter: >> >> * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead = of >> use >> >> >> * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser = and >> formatter instances >> >> * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply mi= ssing >> reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Henrik >>> Lou >>> >>> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Lou, >>>> >>>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>> Hi Henrik, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-p= ip; >>>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whateve= r is >>>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >>>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xm= l >>>> >>>> >>>> Henrik >>>> >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.x= ml >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve ext= ernal >>>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the version info is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document sou= rce in >>>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, l= xml, >>>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>>>> Required-by: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Henrik >>>>>> >>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>>> >>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> >=20 --dRx4pFl4osGpC75nmmp07etcm7PcfAeQG-- --pdUM07qXrJiVNBaaQcx3fN5WCbdw4QqSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:57:43 +0000 To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <092fbfb3-5eee-0a6f-209e-e3f8dbcf10b5@levkowetz.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <83df47d5-89c3-1c00-da4d-65869926fbde@labn.net> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:57:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 In-Reply-To: <092fbfb3-5eee-0a6f-209e-e3f8dbcf10b5@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: BL1PR13CA0028.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:256::33) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by BL1PR13CA0028.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:256::33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3541.10 via Frontend Transport; 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CAT:NONE; SFS:(346002)(136003)(39830400003)(396003)(366004)(376002)(2616005)(31696002)(83380400001)(8936002)(86362001)(16576012)(8676002)(66946007)(66556008)(316002)(956004)(19273905006)(31686004)(66476007)(2906002)(36756003)(478600001)(6706004)(26005)(6486002)(52116002)(5660300002)(966005)(16526019)(53546011)(186003)(78286007)(43740500002)(563064011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: labn.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ce363ccf-3e11-4b02-7037-08d880113347 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2020 15:57:43.7468 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: eb60ac54-2184-4344-9b60-40c8b2b72561 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: UEggbytE98Ef4ZdzreGa9SdK+BqS34Nk3qBauhM0FnexLiRn36CFi2sCFYbhKIlh7Tmocye3ivMx8lZiBzgUpQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR14MB4062 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 15:57:50 -0000 Thanks for the assist.  I'll change my scripts to use --legacy. Lou On 11/3/2020 10:52 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Lou, > > On 2020-11-03 16:46, Lou Berger wrote: >> Hi Henrik, >> >> adding the --legacy flag did the trick. Is there someway to auto-detect >> use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has >> worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in, >> schemas/versions? > Not for the 3.x releases. For that, you should install the last of the 2.x > series -- it should be good enough for most purposes for quite some time. > > Best regards, > > Henrik > >> Thanks again, >> >> Lou >> >> On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> Hi Lou, >>> >>> On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml >>> Thank you. >>> >>> This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include >>> paths. >>> >>> With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the >>> schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is >>> converted to v3 schema internally. >>> >>> One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle >>> inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does >>> not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to >>> be complete and correct, or fail. >>> >>> (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of >>> fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the >>> XInclude spec. and had to go.) >>> >>> There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one >>> which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 >>> converter: >>> >>> * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of >>> use >>> >>> >>> * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and >>> formatter instances >>> >>> * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing >>> reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Henrik >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>> Hi Henrik, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; >>>>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is >>>>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >>>>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Henrik >>>>> >>>>>> Lou >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >>>>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the version info is: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in >>>>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, >>>>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>>>>> Required-by: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Henrik >>>>>>> >>>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>> >>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>> >>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>> From nobody Tue Nov 3 11:48:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38253A1100 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:48:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EcSwOTVj7owD for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CB223A10FD for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51CF38983; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id mYw1a_x1fLj9; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C15738982; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC12373; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:48:05 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 19:48:10 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had the same problem yesterday, ten minutes to the deadline. I estimate I have it once a week. I just curl the relevant file and put it into ~/.local/xmlrfc. I find this: obiwan-[~](2.6.6) mcr 17666 %ls -l .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765* -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug 28 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765 -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug 28 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765.= xml to be some kind of pathology that I don't understand. It's unclear to me from what Hendrik said about the fallback locations if t= he root cause problems we are running into are related to cloudflare caching, = or something else. Clearly it sounds to me like xml2rfc's fallback processing has been hiding some other instability. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+hs/UACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXOTwf/WsQ/zJ4GP55zgWhcCNGTcw9JMxi0Ezx7E4xJS7p70hNJZ2nZdjkrKlng kg2P0xX862c7jFKnJCpk91QAooO8uth0JSq7c3/EFeEDtO2FH89zojS8inU5TYAg W+T4FMZGowAt+Sip9zMnUdE0y6q3tSkRdAqQcuoqq+XJA2KBJ1/Pr9c2DKS1qYiT WQqlmm3akUBMD0FRTjEJVRc3D0lt4lkVhKyPXFDoYdHoUa3sneRlBzZlG5ubmGGE BvVVEc0mTwF6zhMKU0Szbicy8cnTjmaH+r0Lv7uImzg496mMDXiH51xdLPc9oeTm FJV5Kgy0gpUViN9IzwumlWYjx/SkEg== =in9W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Nov 3 11:50:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C1F3A1105 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:50:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Ed0dXX1nZDY for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:50:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF1513A1106 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id t22so9063455plr.9 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 11:50:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:cc:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ze/59ruad9ypGnoMRIaeoh27jL1c3amMlajhpd080dA=; b=ptSw2xGC6OsXBvWPe5zf8Cwqoj7Tjs7y0NY4rSE5rs2fP3nOeo2PgHghYRuw42duYI x98zXTZZcWy6TG8nfaY3nFgAVh9Z2qd8bi/GmN23Zs0Tm7+rzsVmtl0eEWaJtqr6oLqf RuvLVLbX9Kgt3aLLRxY/GlTBTi7rTF4kuDZ4RiIQ8XVaMuxPlE+riCi8A6upOEjmWxG0 0vkkGpezkbYwpDKxfWglakOSvRCCsf7O9Fw8ztQ3NboqE4iUfFrIx1MaEMIzjplnyeOH ts/oFPBoYSYfULUlCUPIr2qwpuMvy0ObtquW0ImStjQYHOpw+P5iaF+3nRDVw/xm6eqy MJkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:cc:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ze/59ruad9ypGnoMRIaeoh27jL1c3amMlajhpd080dA=; b=gkmeXnZtZb58ax+B1GyQDHWeLg61WmWfbe4W6YQJK8Q2z3x8G+mGSbHKoCPo4HimUK yNslIUxPT1/19rUrDtEFoSWGfu7EBkhEJGzO//CnLjAlwHJLxYdsZDK75Nmj1Szg5ovn nnLl0OrxiX8JOaHT1n393XVea8GbuOWIaoAHKYU/phFU+HFxHpVfgX7aaWMUuITb7q8a 6iMhTe/yjiqRb+INvDemxTyMkEkB5eYhtMkLtVGYynUDOtpxqE3OxK0X6EJekXs38/Cz BdfyAg1q5eBazgFwWCtfifl6llNW/M3iPySoyqpP5MO5WiGnwHAdgi1GREkvROnWQg74 xVyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530we/NaB8wXycH38wBdn1v6DtGfQ+cTxmGcsOsnTT/KLPpqhw2Y iYRPadMWyFvAr7wq8Cr8KGqKhikXagEJpQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy0NHzcqtIM/WyNgeuPvCIp5LYT6ij7zHEZkOrU4N19Un+EMmbLfYMFY4NEn7+0Brg8j7/R9g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6b08:b029:d6:c471:8b5b with SMTP id o8-20020a1709026b08b02900d6c4718b5bmr12817717plk.78.1604433048440; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 11:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.130.0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t15sm18045072pfq.201.2020.11.03.11.50.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Nov 2020 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) To: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 08:50:45 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 19:50:52 -0000 Lou, Why not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway, s= o why not this week? Whenever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and carry= on. There are a couple of gotchas: 1. You need to change manually to something else. 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D citatio= ns; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. Regards Brian Carpenter On 04-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Henrik, >=20 > adding the --legacy flag did the trick.=C2=A0 Is there someway to auto-= detect=20 > use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has= =20 > worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in,=20 > schemas/versions? >=20 > Thanks again, >=20 > Lou >=20 > On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi Lou, >> >> On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13= =2Exml >> Thank you. >> >> This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include >> paths. >> >> With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use = the >> schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is >> converted to v3 schema internally. >> >> One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to ha= ndle >> inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it doe= s >> not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have = to >> be complete and correct, or fail. >> >> (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of >> fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the >> XInclude spec. and had to go.) >> >> There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and o= ne >> which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-= v3 >> converter: >> >> * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead = of >> use >> >> >> * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser = and >> formatter instances >> >> * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply mi= ssing >> reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Henrik >>> Lou >>> >>> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Lou, >>>> >>>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>> Hi Henrik, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-p= ip; >>>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whateve= r is >>>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >>>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xm= l >>>> >>>> >>>> Henrik >>>> >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.x= ml >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve ext= ernal >>>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the version info is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document sou= rce in >>>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, l= xml, >>>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>>>> Required-by: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Henrik >>>>>> >>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>>> >>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 3 15:52:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238E83A12C3 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1VopqR7gM_8s for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D6E73A12C1 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4F5548659; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 00:52:47 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id E0DF8440059; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 00:52:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 00:52:47 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <20201103235247.GG48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 23:52:57 -0000 I just did this at -29 for my ACP draft, and it was quite painfull and only acceptable because i didn't have to do a lot of changes afterwards. I did include this as my main concern against xmlv3 in the LLC questionaire: The conversion from v2 to v3 replaces user preferred choices with options that are more difficult to edit manually - even though i think v3 has wqually easily manually editable choices. For example, all biography is inlined instead of using the best reference format. Or title lines are split in two with name tag separated. Aka: Ideally you would want the v3 conversion to change as little as necessary, at least as an option. Of course you may always have another tool to convert any v3 into whatever may be a preferred v3 representation. But thats a different thing. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Nov 04, 2020 at 08:50:45AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Lou, > > Why not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway, so why not this week? > > Whenever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and carry on. > > There are a couple of gotchas: > 1. You need to change manually to something else. > 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 04-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote: > > Hi Henrik, > > > > adding the --legacy flag did the trick.  Is there someway to auto-detect > > use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has > > worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in, > > schemas/versions? > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Lou > > > > On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Hi Lou, > >> > >> On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: > >>> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml > >> Thank you. > >> > >> This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include > >> paths. > >> > >> With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the > >> schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is > >> converted to v3 schema internally. > >> > >> One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle > >> inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does > >> not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to > >> be complete and correct, or fail. > >> > >> (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of > >> fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the > >> XInclude spec. and had to go.) > >> > >> There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one > >> which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 > >> converter: > >> > >> * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of > >> use > >> > >> > >> * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and > >> formatter instances > >> > >> * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing > >> reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. > >> > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Henrik > >>> Lou > >>> > >>> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Lou, > >>>> > >>>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: > >>>>> Hi Henrik, > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; > >>>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is > >>>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? > >>>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Henrik > >>>> > >>>>> Lou > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Lou, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the > >>>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external > >>>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> the version info is: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc > >>>>>>> Name: xml2rfc > >>>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 > >>>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in > >>>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. > >>>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ > >>>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz > >>>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org > >>>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause > >>>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages > >>>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, > >>>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, > >>>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen > >>>>>>> Required-by: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? > >>>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Henrik > >>>>>> > >>>>> ___________________________________________________________ > >>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list > >>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > >>>>> > >>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > >>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > >>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > >>>>> > >>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > >>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > >>>>> > >>> ___________________________________________________________ > >>> Tools-discuss mailing list > >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > >>> > >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > >>> > >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > >>> > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Nov 3 16:13:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6353A12CE for ; 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Wed, 4 Nov 2020 00:13:51 +0000 To: Toerless Eckert , Brian E Carpenter Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <20201103235247.GG48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <2f4b1ec6-dae8-18d3-5f2a-ee1e718d34fe@labn.net> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:13:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 In-Reply-To: <20201103235247.GG48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [100.15.105.234] X-ClientProxiedBy: MN2PR01CA0030.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10b6:208:10c::43) To MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [11.5.0.121] (100.15.105.234) by MN2PR01CA0030.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10b6:208:10c::43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.19 via Frontend Transport; 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[was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 00:13:56 -0000 Kudos to the tools team for --legacy mode which did the trick. I guess my response to the origin question is -- if it's working why would I want to spend my oversubscribed time on a formatting tool conversion to produce the same results. Also a note of special appreciation to Henrik for his professionalism and typical fine support on this, I'm sure, very trying day! Lou On 11/3/2020 6:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > I just did this at -29 for my ACP draft, and it was quite painfull and only acceptable > because i didn't have to do a lot of changes afterwards. I did include this as my main > concern against xmlv3 in the LLC questionaire: > > The conversion from v2 to v3 replaces user preferred choices with options that > are more difficult to edit manually - even though i think v3 has wqually easily > manually editable choices. > > For example, all biography is inlined instead of using the best reference format. > Or title lines are split in two with name tag separated. > > Aka: Ideally you would want the v3 conversion to change as little as necessary, at least > as an option. Of course you may always have another tool to convert any v3 into whatever > may be a preferred v3 representation. But thats a different thing. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Wed, Nov 04, 2020 at 08:50:45AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Lou, >> >> Why not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway, so why not this week? >> >> Whenever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and carry on. >> >> There are a couple of gotchas: >> 1. You need to change manually to something else. >> 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 04-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Hi Henrik, >>> >>> adding the --legacy flag did the trick.  Is there someway to auto-detect >>> use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has >>> worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in, >>> schemas/versions? >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> >>> Lou >>> >>> On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>> Hi Lou, >>>> >>>> On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include >>>> paths. >>>> >>>> With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the >>>> schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is >>>> converted to v3 schema internally. >>>> >>>> One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle >>>> inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does >>>> not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to >>>> be complete and correct, or fail. >>>> >>>> (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of >>>> fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the >>>> XInclude spec. and had to go.) >>>> >>>> There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one >>>> which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 >>>> converter: >>>> >>>> * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of >>>> use >>>> >>>> >>>> * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and >>>> formatter instances >>>> >>>> * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing >>>> reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Henrik >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Henrik, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; >>>>>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is >>>>>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >>>>>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Henrik >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lou >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml >>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external >>>>>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the version info is: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>>>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in >>>>>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, >>>>>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>>>>>> Required-by: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>>>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Henrik >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>>> >>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Tue Nov 3 16:41:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828DE3A12FB for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:41:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ET6PGOWNC_hB for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 547293A12E4 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5398548657; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:40:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B46DA440059; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:40:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:40:54 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lou Berger Cc: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <20201104004054.GH48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <20201103235247.GG48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2f4b1ec6-dae8-18d3-5f2a-ee1e718d34fe@labn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2f4b1ec6-dae8-18d3-5f2a-ee1e718d34fe@labn.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 00:41:05 -0000 On Tue, Nov 03, 2020 at 07:13:49PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > Kudos to the tools team for --legacy mode which did the trick. Yepp. > I guess my response to the origin question is -- if it's working why would I > want to spend my oversubscribed time on a formatting tool conversion to > produce the same results. YOu shouldn't unless at some point in time (hopefully not now) maintenance of backward compatiblity is considered to be too expensvie for tooling. I did the upgrade because i wanted to use a nw v3 feature (contact for contributor section). Next step is really an exit strategy to work directly with XML (markup). > Also a note of special appreciation to Henrik for his professionalism and > typical fine support on this, I'm sure, very trying day! Will become more trying for us when Henrik leaves next year. But i guess we deserve it. *sigh* Cheers Toerless > Lou > > On 11/3/2020 6:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > I just did this at -29 for my ACP draft, and it was quite painfull and only acceptable > > because i didn't have to do a lot of changes afterwards. I did include this as my main > > concern against xmlv3 in the LLC questionaire: > > > > The conversion from v2 to v3 replaces user preferred choices with options that > > are more difficult to edit manually - even though i think v3 has wqually easily > > manually editable choices. > > > > For example, all biography is inlined instead of using the best reference format. > > Or title lines are split in two with name tag separated. > > > > Aka: Ideally you would want the v3 conversion to change as little as necessary, at least > > as an option. Of course you may always have another tool to convert any v3 into whatever > > may be a preferred v3 representation. But thats a different thing. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Nov 04, 2020 at 08:50:45AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > Lou, > > > > > > Why not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway, so why not this week? > > > > > > Whenever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and carry on. > > > > > > There are a couple of gotchas: > > > 1. You need to change manually to something else. > > > 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. > > > > > > Regards > > > Brian Carpenter > > > > > > On 04-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > Hi Henrik, > > > > > > > > adding the --legacy flag did the trick.  Is there someway to auto-detect > > > > use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has > > > > worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in, > > > > schemas/versions? > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > > > Hi Lou, > > > > > > > > > > On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > > Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include > > > > > paths. > > > > > > > > > > With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the > > > > > schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is > > > > > converted to v3 schema internally. > > > > > > > > > > One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle > > > > > inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does > > > > > not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to > > > > > be complete and correct, or fail. > > > > > > > > > > (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of > > > > > fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the > > > > > XInclude spec. and had to go.) > > > > > > > > > > There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one > > > > > which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 > > > > > converter: > > > > > > > > > > * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and > > > > > formatter instances > > > > > > > > > > * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing > > > > > reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Henrik > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Henrik, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; > > > > > > > > pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is > > > > > > > > from the public repo. Is this sufficient? > > > > > > > No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the > > > > > > > > > > previously reported (resolved?) error: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml > > > > > > > > > > draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external > > > > > > > > > > request: "reference.RFC.2119" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the version info is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pip3 show xml2rfc > > > > > > > > > > Name: xml2rfc > > > > > > > > > > Version: 3.3.0 > > > > > > > > > > Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in > > > > > > > > > > XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. > > > > > > > > > > Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ > > > > > > > > > > Author: Henrik Levkowetz > > > > > > > > > > Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > License: BSD-3-Clause > > > > > > > > > > Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages > > > > > > > > > > Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, > > > > > > > > > > configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, > > > > > > > > > > google-i18n-address, kitchen > > > > > > > > > > Required-by: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a known solution to this? > > > > > > > > > Could you provide the xml source, please? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > > > > > > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > > > > > > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > > > > > > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > > > > > > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > > > > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > > > > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > > > > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > > > > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Nov 4 06:10:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA803A0A73 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:10:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SDXYHpIlYwjC for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF7953A0A6A for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:53402 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kaJUl-0004ZD-0J; Wed, 04 Nov 2020 06:10:40 -0800 To: Brian E Carpenter , Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:10:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="efU6pUASAR50TdMgEXC0DM7lbe1QN98vA" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 14:10:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --efU6pUASAR50TdMgEXC0DM7lbe1QN98vA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fmflaQcOdFRW9nq58OH7mRs8fngBdACvt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Brian E Carpenter , Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: --fmflaQcOdFRW9nq58OH7mRs8fngBdACvt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian, Lou, On 2020-11-03 20:50, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Lou, >=20 > Why not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway,= so why not this week? >=20 > Whenever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and car= ry on. >=20 > There are a couple of gotchas: > 1. You need to change manually to something else. Yes. Running the v2 to v3 converter (xml2rfc --v2v3) will convert some instances of , but not all -- the correct replacement varies so much with what the author intended that I didn't find a way to sort out all cases programmatically. A good approach might be to run the conversi= on once, and take note of the warnings about instances not convert= ed; then handle those manually before re-running the conversion. I think the= cases that _are_ handled are handled in a reasonable manner. > 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D > citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. Right. There is a bit of a complication here in that the v2 entity references are resolved by the parser before the v2v3 conversion starts, so the information about version-agnostic or version-specific URLs is lost early on. What I'll do for the next release is to by default create XInclude statements to the version-agnostic URLs, and add a switch to retain the version-specific URLs as an alternative. Best regards, Henrik >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 > On 04-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote: >> Hi Henrik, >>=20 >> adding the --legacy flag did the trick. Is there someway to auto-dete= ct=20 >> use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what ha= s=20 >> worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in,=20 >> schemas/versions? >>=20 >> Thanks again, >>=20 >> Lou >>=20 >> On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> Hi Lou, >>> >>> On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-1= 3.xml >>> Thank you. >>> >>> This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include= >>> paths. >>> >>> With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use= the >>> schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is >>> converted to v3 schema internally. >>> >>> One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to h= andle >>> inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it do= es >>> not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have= to >>> be complete and correct, or fail. >>> >>> (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of >>> fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the= >>> XInclude spec. and had to go.) >>> >>> There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and = one >>> which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to= -v3 >>> converter: >>> >>> * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead= of >>> use >>> >>> >>> * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser= and >>> formatter instances >>> >>> * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply m= issing >>> reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Henrik >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>> Hi Henrik, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-= pip; >>>>>> pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatev= er is >>>>>> from the public repo. Is this sufficient? >>>>> No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.x= ml >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Henrik >>>>> >>>>>> Lou >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Lou, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the >>>>>>>> previously reported (resolved?) error: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.= xml >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve ex= ternal >>>>>>>> request: "reference.RFC.2119" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the version info is: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > pip3 show xml2rfc >>>>>>>> Name: xml2rfc >>>>>>>> Version: 3.3.0 >>>>>>>> Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document so= urce in >>>>>>>> XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. >>>>>>>> Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ >>>>>>>> Author: Henrik Levkowetz >>>>>>>> Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>>>> License: BSD-3-Clause >>>>>>>> Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages >>>>>>>> Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, = lxml, >>>>>>>> configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, >>>>>>>> google-i18n-address, kitchen >>>>>>>> Required-by: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there a known solution to this? >>>>>>> Could you provide the xml source, please? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Henrik >>>>>>> >>>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>> >>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>> >>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>> >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>=20 >=20 >=20 --fmflaQcOdFRW9nq58OH7mRs8fngBdACvt-- --efU6pUASAR50TdMgEXC0DM7lbe1QN98vA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl+itlYACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxovvg/+MQA1/w7J8ZmcQC0Q3pcz6nEd4el5G64DUz7quBBpo7vzNlc3LBsYdBW/ 9D7ot8gL+//9CWrk91IrX2wkde3SqUUcW7xdy+6RA/dXyPV1qEYmEXQA/hNUfR8A kHDaX28dv8g8kfYvCdoGP6WpF2gvKzW8Xxlv4tzioZlkgLnb2WbYlLH+C/zegwmw ESuG/89VkSEHtDI7EK0kTYa8uTKuSRQOSwy9k6jG9kT/+/iihjzJ+ZqWtkOoeiwg vK6AiI1ovNyufKfaGcqLlIKGgesQvevzmaUJGad9eVxxlCYuJ903VmPcLQsKY0na b9SJY+zN8YRk+m4JJE+kOczpHYRTPM2EHAcQ901mbyVdgRgQRuZ1Sk+cLmAY+BEJ GOiAOdTLkdEDWJOg6R258BSjmxkIpC/XKZBcZeGay6Z6FjCb8o0hop9ra9zQVw1B VtoCit5cADtDAYilCm6v7TpWxuJ7xPZ/4iuf8aQNHBr6zJ3KlFTOCdXBUD8J6sWG 8/83fVzOeXcG3GK07QMMl64mrYLxu4oObFBBsJZuPj0TJPmMRa27e3yOPKCKOpLP 8nhZVC/WnAgV51wpcu6nfErfqSVWgDEcDRoFHwWjYFUhkDP7bi6oZw5+6B4FJueJ 8aEBh7MHQgBhEHj8OVbW3fuz4je1pa3WmOG2v0yZFFGAium2gAE= =aFy/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --efU6pUASAR50TdMgEXC0DM7lbe1QN98vA-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 08:30:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBEF3A097A for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 08:30:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ijqr21X53NFe for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 08:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9EDB3A0D45 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 08:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CRBvW5S0HzyVc; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:29:59 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:29:59 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Lou Berger , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626200199.173859-21172202ed47e10f1a2644fdc9c73b88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <56DAC899-E8FD-4E44-BD6C-589B0ABCA855@tzi.org> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 16:30:06 -0000 On 2020-11-04, at 15:10, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >=20 >> 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D >> citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. >=20 > Right. There is a bit of a complication here in that the v2 entity > references are resolved by the parser before the v2v3 conversion = starts, > so the information about version-agnostic or version-specific URLs is > lost early on. What I'll do for the next release is to by default > create XInclude statements to the version-agnostic URLs, and add a > switch to retain the version-specific URLs as an alternative. Which is a nice demonstration of the hard-learned general principle that = syntactic features (include) should never be used to encode semantic = content (here: bibliographic reference). (Not addressed to anyone specifically because that child is already = solidly embedded in the bottom of the well.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Nov 4 09:14:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7EB3A133B for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SsQFQOJ-XOII for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:14:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56A323A0DDB for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:14:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:55241 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kaMMB-0001XC-7V; Wed, 04 Nov 2020 09:13:59 -0800 To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 18:13:51 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <30892.1604432885@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DO9qqFO70ebP7WIVs7bqobEH8jJvci6Cx" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 17:14:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --DO9qqFO70ebP7WIVs7bqobEH8jJvci6Cx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UlbWsgxb1sdbriN2UBLbedaobO1wdLEN7"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> In-Reply-To: <30892.1604432885@localhost> --UlbWsgxb1sdbriN2UBLbedaobO1wdLEN7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, On 2020-11-03 20:48, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > I had the same problem yesterday, ten minutes to the deadline. > I estimate I have it once a week. >=20 > I just curl the relevant file and put it into ~/.local/xmlrfc. Umm? I would think you mean ~/.cache/xml2rfc above, not ".local"? Otherwise there's a lot of missing information here. > I find this: > obiwan-[~](2.6.6) mcr 17666 %ls -l .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765*= > -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug 28 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8= 765 > -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug 28 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8= 765.xml >=20 > to be some kind of pathology that I don't understand. >=20 > It's unclear to me from what Hendrik said about the fallback locations = if the > root cause problems we are running into are related to cloudflare cachi= ng, or > something else. Clearly it sounds to me like xml2rfc's fallback proce= ssing > has been hiding some other instability. The v2 processing tries to both provide path, URL, and extension fallback= s, and that could also be reflected in the cache. If you have some drafts referring to "reference.RFC.8765" and others to "reference.RFC.8765.xml" I think you might see what you see above. Rather than trying to _now_ figure out all the ins and outs of the old v2= processing, I'd really recommend simply providing the full URLs of refere= nces in any new work, and transitioning to v3 and XInclude. Regards, Henrik --UlbWsgxb1sdbriN2UBLbedaobO1wdLEN7-- --DO9qqFO70ebP7WIVs7bqobEH8jJvci6Cx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl+i4U8ACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxo85BAAgYeCfhbc8VnpovyVIqyYBbsNh2cauj8hVF2WBMBjNsoPxPj+3a6moz1p /MCiff3zDjETD+ZGePbkDtrSBrVN7lJUIHouAMGl5Q2rw0hJLjczap1J4jxM3rVp 2SPYyreCwCvMigyUQNZ4VYwWoIintuzu+o3CryX6Du+OhJ/pUyRg0aNV2zFMB10I +MsWrmiSaCU8RYsL0VvbPUdOuNjx3OHl6Q8WW4Gn58A04niUhMFNtXFG2VjAuCMz 09k3HLXYsMFKtTmHy66h2Soe+sG2WaDU4lWU4OC3LLt2ze41xFYmp1Sg8NcxX2EF UeeyZUI+bJvxRznjiAtxUWN/btP85VLkFfSDHOgLxedbkTw+5uRmlaDdsAkRBg5d 3CujeMM5dMdVhPzfz56AzJF9TESEwRT3bjAraoNqagvVF+YeYHR7pXWtukcZC1QS AHZ7KLZ7YV/ConhTdhP0/GeukDXBRs2M3WRSNq8Yh+lnsziiHjX9j75v+BPBsqMJ v3g8j1tAYaZOA9PmQH+sX8P9z7Mds1rMBFcFLQZiSrikbHBA9sb7Cmb5rohhriK6 9WMuHmKqVr0XkwEbEBoH/ZQHTc3XNblAVBK65ylyqqXQ/BN5IjQYbJav5SWwdg26 rxwDxdTJSqd88Uvb9GEhdcUudi7d325Y7J9msVHPHBWwj4SlFFo= =AUch -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DO9qqFO70ebP7WIVs7bqobEH8jJvci6Cx-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 11:02:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFE83A0F41 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 11:02:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2QpCmo4P_Mf8 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 11:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C63E3A0F22 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 11:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B6938AA0; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id bnt1B40kvfpv; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDBE38A9F; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD1A26; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:02:46 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 19:02:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Michael, > On 2020-11-03 20:48, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> I had the same problem yesterday, ten minutes to the deadline. I >> estimate I have it once a week. >> >> I just curl the relevant file and put it into ~/.local/xmlrfc. > Umm? I would think you mean ~/.cache/xml2rfc above, not ".local"? > Otherwise there's a lot of missing information here. Yes, my bad typing rather than copy&pasting. >> I find this: obiwan-[~](2.6.6) mcr 17666 %ls -l >> .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765* -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug 28 >> 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765 -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug >> 28 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765.xml >> >> to be some kind of pathology that I don't understand. >> >> It's unclear to me from what Hendrik said about the fallback locatio= ns >> if the root cause problems we are running into are related to >> cloudflare caching, or something else. Clearly it sounds to me like >> xml2rfc's fallback processing has been hiding some other instability. > The v2 processing tries to both provide path, URL, and extension > fallbacks, and that could also be reflected in the cache. If you have > some drafts referring to "reference.RFC.8765" and others to > "reference.RFC.8765.xml" I think you might see what you see above. okay. > Rather than trying to _now_ figure out all the ins and outs of the old > v2 processing, I'd really recommend simply providing the full URLs of > references in any new work, and transitioning to v3 and XInclude. I'm using kramdown for mostly everything, so I'm gonna let Carsten do that. The output is v2 for now, and I upgrade it with --v2v3 in every place I con= trol. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+i+tYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX8Ewf/bEUcKQFhHDA7fZbUr6qhDVMWmqfP4Li3t6jDvNYmbhgfGMoabfAfhNDp dCpFx5Wm3FO9qRN0cDa89uniZ/S/1MEALUQTEeGucBmER8ghwXM8CoYSPrLa8md5 XTelsG1kSuU/fXP/2z2hPR+7/KcN73MeptsLt2Qb/LBASFlxgxJOZI9Uad4xGMio XuG6Q8iLmv1mWAlNFa0Wimpva8dJkbQ3xIuQaWqtDyOBjzZOYabSPzdlPidOpc7l spwTIN17wXQ0Ighljn9u+Rq1Y8jMGca4+SU4WhcVSDQsge+BZ4Vru0YztDyVLJD0 OP7FinDorpm83EmHqVO6CB4y1wHYTw== =ISN7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 13:18:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE7F3A0FF8 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:18:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6eMHBAwP0sZn for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A1E83A0FF7 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:57164 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kaQB9-00017u-7R; Wed, 04 Nov 2020 13:18:52 -0800 To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> <14763.1604516566@localhost> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <49516287-d32a-0baa-55c0-6aa5126a2444@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 22:18:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14763.1604516566@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cSTjg7DhHS5nDOFS8GsvWI8tAKuQWOJv0" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 21:18:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cSTjg7DhHS5nDOFS8GsvWI8tAKuQWOJv0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="djxVxaG9D9TRcv2boTN8NI0cjCx0s7Gdw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <49516287-d32a-0baa-55c0-6aa5126a2444@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> <14763.1604516566@localhost> In-Reply-To: <14763.1604516566@localhost> --djxVxaG9D9TRcv2boTN8NI0cjCx0s7Gdw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, On 2020-11-04 20:02, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Hi Michael, >=20 > > On 2020-11-03 20:48, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> > >> I had the same problem yesterday, ten minutes to the deadline. = I > >> estimate I have it once a week. > >> > >> I just curl the relevant file and put it into ~/.local/xmlrfc. >=20 > > Umm? I would think you mean ~/.cache/xml2rfc above, not ".local"= ? > > Otherwise there's a lot of missing information here. >=20 > Yes, my bad typing rather than copy&pasting. >=20 > >> I find this: obiwan-[~](2.6.6) mcr 17666 %ls -l > >> .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765* -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 1064 Aug= 28 > >> 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765 -rw-r--r-- 2 mcr mcr 106= 4 Aug > >> 28 16:53 .cache/xml2rfc/reference.RFC.8765.xml > >> > >> to be some kind of pathology that I don't understand. > >> > >> It's unclear to me from what Hendrik said about the fallback loc= ations > >> if the root cause problems we are running into are related to > >> cloudflare caching, or something else. Clearly it sounds to me = like > >> xml2rfc's fallback processing has been hiding some other instabi= lity. >=20 > > The v2 processing tries to both provide path, URL, and extension > > fallbacks, and that could also be reflected in the cache. If you= have > > some drafts referring to "reference.RFC.8765" and others to > > "reference.RFC.8765.xml" I think you might see what you see above= =2E >=20 > okay. >=20 > > Rather than trying to _now_ figure out all the ins and outs of th= e old > > v2 processing, I'd really recommend simply providing the full URL= s of > > references in any new work, and transitioning to v3 and XInclude.= >=20 > I'm using kramdown for mostly everything, so I'm gonna let Carsten do t= hat. > The output is v2 for now, and I upgrade it with --v2v3 in every place I= control. Ok, I see how that limits some options. Is it not possible to use full U= RLs=20 references, though? Henrik --djxVxaG9D9TRcv2boTN8NI0cjCx0s7Gdw-- --cSTjg7DhHS5nDOFS8GsvWI8tAKuQWOJv0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl+jGrMACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqETw//Zlh7iHqNRV84C5zQDjL1oixeBJM2ssmUIMmA3SI0e/jvag6Ap7xz//G7 3IlQIQDt+UhjjvXkL4yif5BTCQcy8Q3mhcCDPmLVuvujBPVe/SUktf+pwOogW7j/ 62xvx27UD6hrzgGzwUyMJPQxDpcdecC78HHuAIr+jXmcKpV8psJLLikuBoUgTVMX cs4D5n+v+yiRfs5Ag0vBGWunRLzNOoIIR+Fv8niP1GLYJ5OaKo5/U4ZgopwnTeVK ZR/7ZIPcmJCODKkl0CCMHldm1UGD0uL7iRQ26PfWc/Y3FKSPQxVZj+OnVngkJtjW Zgz9NvL9NIGuYyBZ+gO/Sp6U6vJrbbZk0GxLB8ok2OXlIc9cnu7ZXH33VJl1UW10 Oh8JcKh0J+dF888dIIZHXdGZT/rAhyOGBOqbzRVus+85NJf430Es7UoBGpdjS6Dy jWDJM7PnehbRXSolPVTjYOeTytjuUppGWKBQyfLHZpK7Dv90ORN+WCshhyqLIfmW WVerHpT0w7d2Zz5Qku2aRWIdgIKM/7jCyvh/rtkcptAdygg+ZGl818RAQEdA1xSS 0qxUY9IULiFIaKz1hAnNZaHUIpP9V9FeuW5OstcUcpuIb9Bu1XIkIq+cmzw07bCo Wow/kQZSrI3z2vAmuJGjoOb7T6SppMwix5T99Vj2uUcFW4aOHLc= =8bLK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cSTjg7DhHS5nDOFS8GsvWI8tAKuQWOJv0-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 13:28:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98643A1019 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fkXfbwyEzLdz for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E78423A1014 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:28:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CRKXF3kqGzyfw; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 22:28:45 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <49516287-d32a-0baa-55c0-6aa5126a2444@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 22:28:44 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626218124.73621-eccdcb4fb50f9d168d7de3f4264914d9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <019B00A8-0F61-40AD-9A26-2A6CFB9CAA5E@tzi.org> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> <14763.1604516566@localhost> <49516287-d32a-0baa-55c0-6aa5126a2444@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 21:28:51 -0000 On 2020-11-04, at 22:18, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >=20 >>> Rather than trying to _now_ figure out all the ins and outs of the = old >>> v2 processing, I'd really recommend simply providing the full URLs = of >>> references in any new work, and transitioning to v3 and XInclude. >>=20 >> I'm using kramdown for mostly everything, so I'm gonna let Carsten do = that. >> The output is v2 for now, and I upgrade it with --v2v3 in every place = I control. >=20 > Ok, I see how that limits some options. Is it not possible to use = full URLs=20 > references, though? There is never a need to use references in the XML with kramdown-rfc. (Use `stand_alone: true`) If you do want to use unresolved references in the XML (`stand_alone: = false`) for some reason, kramdown-rfc generates entity declarations and = not PIs or xinclude. Entity declarations need full URIs and therefore = use them: = ... So I don=E2=80=99t think kramdown-rfc is part of the problem here. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Nov 4 15:38:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291B93A1167 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxVVN74Sg2cu for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60D813A1168 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1D638ACF; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 18:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tqLv5P-9ghuI; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 18:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CAE38AA3; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 18:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EBB26; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 18:37:57 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <019B00A8-0F61-40AD-9A26-2A6CFB9CAA5E@tzi.org> References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> <4c9e7642-245a-6aef-12a0-5156e2941854@gmx.de> <30892.1604432885@localhost> <8ee06b32-1257-167f-6a88-86f8c99e0b50@levkowetz.com> <14763.1604516566@localhost> <49516287-d32a-0baa-55c0-6aa5126a2444@levkowetz.com> <019B00A8-0F61-40AD-9A26-2A6CFB9CAA5E@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] help - old xml2rfc error is back X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 23:38:02 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> Rather than trying to _now_ figure out all the ins and outs of the >>>> old v2 processing, I'd really recommend simply providing the full >>>> URLs of references in any new work, and transitioning to v3 and >>>> XInclude. >>> >>> I'm using kramdown for mostly everything, so I'm gonna let Carsten = do >>> that. The output is v2 for now, and I upgrade it with --v2v3 in >>> every place I control. >> >> Ok, I see how that limits some options. Is it not possible to use >> full URLs references, though? > There is never a need to use references in the XML with kramdown-rfc. > (Use `stand_alone: true`) If you do want to use unresolved references > in the XML (`stand_alone: false`) for some reason, kramdown-rfc > generates entity declarations and not PIs or xinclude. Entity > declarations need full URIs and therefore use them: > So I don=E2=80=99t think kramdown-rfc is part of the problem here. I mostly go with stand_alone: true now. I do not remember where I had problems, it might have been older documents which were in XML only. But, my original point stands: it seems that the fallback process in v2 processing of xml2rfc has been hiding some instability in our archives of r= eference.* =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+jO1UACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVj9AgAnRT6oKzKYKHE/gHa72YbImArcwfrBm2x6rsP7iF+Y4VaH5aeGLyZgVc0 EeDdxlhkZuEkpyR/6e7RThIMbKQXlkV4R+Tafd3187xd1uSJH1rDmAH9ANOOmlRH pITwczykKDYbi8qnFXj9aP/0+aGCA4Jnq/ixTzpR6FBKGiIoVPmoCrSEiznWpFxC wRXg2U9tFoHfpslV8VI9tnWrULOfDqnd/5z4xTcHQk+nkHVTQo9/FogGvSws0rkU RLE2nkA77lQqkLDQe7/sXLDskHxaVrmzqKFxEPjaa5HxwAd1/0RbgXEc11UrJYC9 2/99cov5CUCxrZkbehKiaVIXuyN6Dg== =f2aE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:47:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A76C3A125E for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:47:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=labn.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8_wY32QpQ6E for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12on2099.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.244.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2CE63A1256 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:47:27 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=czmTKDPVtIN/gL6oP0ieWLaBMHULzFfda6i8iuyW/tMdbmbrZoto6eVRPgGgQGTJwThe0VaKpkWGF/yTQmJkWxTeUKlmwT55cRwDzseprHqHK2BmC7sMymFwPWuJoX0etf7tsNslR26IdN5nncYvppKUd7f6M+c/a7FLPs1IXsobuLKLoYBHba9lfVSM71JlLQKc5o2DvOfWKXtqEH87YZFL3tVw8ieZVXtN1Xu2Nf+76qyerOhUvaE6o+6otJzGwyUM5Z191pKuHHqJOhoNNcEGZ9BGZ6Ad5lyPktYu4dT0fuwpzuMNE0kNnDmQRcvFEfuHJPOUZL2ZlkIXtEM17w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=XS8qFIyMm5pMDmAl+GzWSK5zi4rNyDwDFT0jYKf024c=; b=kF7NV+nL049FvHmPzt+LPWVtidYV90Dt/cc1YrLyFGcAR/SDVkYOYHmauvBhsPGWQs5znBCLO95IR+L5C2vRz7/XNtyolQYyMIVcAItdbAkPRcaiImPYMhmZS1msVnkoD7kmZheSOeyBZgRu3oaWTWntaLRieTqTmUlDyy2KVbn9MpHrLikahiniWARRH8ymAhAGXXyFWGRZ6TalTb3kL8k0odFXPLyS4QjV5dTFDH/w42Yc7bMjUi22oCaeuUex0FiaHbMI9tS/PA6C6bo5p0nqbManIs8jCfGk0Yw309JmClsClw6QCv/GyqMjQAQfvJAglWtI5Ibe9E79IPgO/g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=labn.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=labn.net; dkim=pass header.d=labn.net; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-labn-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=XS8qFIyMm5pMDmAl+GzWSK5zi4rNyDwDFT0jYKf024c=; b=HfcsKEW+5ZpNvtCo3yabvoRYPag6whZBZKPofSjuKLNM2bcbzpF0VMPbR9oKoaeerPYTcNGvQO4mdTRmhkiTVO+VZW6gue6ausBKOZz382njk/+57/za7W27+K0nNH9143mcN3qgJtQFC13GSrscGwbO024INeSTyO1JccSXT78= Received: from MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1a2::13) by MN2PR14MB4112.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:198::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.27; Thu, 5 Nov 2020 01:47:26 +0000 Received: from MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::81b1:ac36:76dd:4dd]) by MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::81b1:ac36:76dd:4dd%2]) with mapi id 15.20.3499.032; Thu, 5 Nov 2020 01:47:26 +0000 From: Lou Berger To: Henrik Levkowetz , Brian E Carpenter , Lou Berger , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] Thread-Index: AQHWshqijjwVozd8Q023X8G863LdrKm4BEqAgADCur4= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 01:47:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <66ea2bd7-c306-46f9-519d-5a7730c53755@labn.net> <440f3dab-74c6-6ee8-a959-e9303c2e2566@levkowetz.com> <1bbbb8ec-20ea-48b5-5227-49c64191ba2c@labn.net> <1536087a-4488-8580-d184-a4ee896fb703@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: levkowetz.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;levkowetz.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=labn.net; x-originating-ip: [100.15.105.234] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b2e3dbbf-f2cb-4ada-ec3c-08d8812cbf79 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR14MB4112: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: WVje3G+HXZpTqfzn3TYKLXQ66pmnHus+0iBP2Z+pW6aFQSBjfXKmNolFnKyADkGp341gsoFfmRegVXYN/LG5mYKu2a8TlEzN7ggksmYpzxI0RHaKNPUYzx+6/1tF69Q/mxm6bIQzMEyKnV4It2/GsZfy8rm8IyTdnqaQcjD2qj4uJe4XRuMR6ZNRLoQoE+qN7FSxjMCNqZV6FzmZD9+tbrkUCnY2lRahHtpC3i32hwQJ4vybxzDzBsdvNvRvTmlA/Ah0HltIIexUd9Td2akdafMwgow5wYl92/5tfuqKcshO5moGGpuNyeefM74XpZ4TM41f26PC0Hqamfy2lM2hvq/Me20ZLumwTyF4g8GCNzyP8TOwY5O2TX+cs2IzfGGezM0lhQYQXi2rXObUxgrH44HGFHDByHmSouNW3maQfYkNYXUuBJsdo081Wcp889zCJ0+/0tk3r+3a0nkPUOFjWA== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(376002)(366004)(39830400003)(346002)(396003)(19273905006)(5660300002)(53546011)(9686003)(66476007)(186003)(6506007)(76116006)(8936002)(66946007)(166002)(55016002)(83380400001)(7696005)(316002)(478600001)(2906002)(64756008)(66446008)(110136005)(33656002)(66556008)(26005)(8676002)(52536014)(71200400001)(966005)(86362001)(563064011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR14MB3280DD7100ECCB95149CB7D3C3EE0MN2PR14MB3280namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: labn.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR14MB3280.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b2e3dbbf-f2cb-4ada-ec3c-08d8812cbf79 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Nov 2020 01:47:26.2713 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: eb60ac54-2184-4344-9b60-40c8b2b72561 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: MqHuwvHVHrzFTeyZcxUDKO43Fy20BJk1iuK5UJmTPt8mxB46VqBZi+NLok4CuhNPyX+wZ63zojT/XD8T+v25Sg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR14MB4112 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why not switch to v3? [was: help - old xml2rfc error is back] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2020 01:47:30 -0000 --_000_MN2PR14MB3280DD7100ECCB95149CB7D3C3EE0MN2PR14MB3280namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Henrik, Thank you for the info. Lou ---------- On November 4, 2020 9:10:44 AM Henrik Levkowetz wrot= e: Hi Brian, Lou, On 2020-11-03 20:50, Brian E Carpenter wrote: Lou, Why not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway, so = why not this week? Whenever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and carry o= n. There are a couple of gotchas: 1. You need to change manually to something else. Yes. Running the v2 to v3 converter (xml2rfc --v2v3) will convert some instances of , but not all -- the correct replacement varies so much with what the author intended that I didn't find a way to sort out all cases programmatically. A good approach might be to run the conversion once, and take note of the warnings about instances not converted= ; then handle those manually before re-running the conversion. I think the cases that _are_ handled are handled in a reasonable manner. 2. The conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out. Right. There is a bit of a complication here in that the v2 entity references are resolved by the parser before the v2v3 conversion starts, so the information about version-agnostic or version-specific URLs is lost early on. What I'll do for the next release is to by default create XInclude statements to the version-agnostic URLs, and add a switch to retain the version-specific URLs as an alternative. Best regards, Henrik Regards Brian Carpenter On 04-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote: Hi Henrik, adding the --legacy flag did the trick. Is there someway to auto-detect use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in, schemas/versions? Thanks again, Lou On 11/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote: Sure, no problem. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml Thank you. This is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include paths. With the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is converted to v3 schema internally. One difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to be complete and correct, or fail. (I initially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the XInclude spec. and had to go.) There are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 converter: * Provide complete explicit URLs for included references: Instead of use * Use the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and formatter instances * (For me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing reference URL paths for recognized reference file names. Best regards, Henrik Lou On 11/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote: Hi Henrik, Thanks for the quick response. I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip; pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is from the public repo. Is this sufficient? No, I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml Henrik Lou On 11/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: Hi Lou, On 2020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote: Hi, I'm on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the previously reported (resolved?) error: Error: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to resolve external request: "reference.RFC.2119" the version info is: > pip3 show xml2rfc Name: xml2rfc Version: 3.3.0 Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies. Home-page: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ Author: Henrik Levkowetz Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org License: BSD-3-Clause Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml, configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2, google-i18n-address, kitchen Required-by: I had no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04 Is there a known solution to this? Could you provide the xml source, please? Henrik ___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarc= hive.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org ___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarc= hive.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org ___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarc= hive.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --_000_MN2PR14MB3280DD7100ECCB95149CB7D3C3EE0MN2PR14MB3280namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Henrik,

Thank you for the info.

Lou

----= ------
On November 4, 2020 9:10:44 AM Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>= ; wrote:

Hi B= rian, Lou,

On 2= 020-11-03 20:50, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

Lou,=

Why = not just switch to v3? At some point that will be necessary anyway, so why = not this week?

When= ever I update a draft now, I simply convert it to v3 format and carry on.

Ther= e are a couple of gotchas:
1. You need to change <vspace /> manually to something else.


Yes.  Running the v2 to v3 converter (xml2rfc --v2v3) will convert som= e
instances of <vspace/>, but not all -- the correct replacement varies= so
much with what the author intended that I didn't find a way to sort out
all cases programmatically.  A good approach might be to run the conve= rsion
once, and take note of the warnings about <vspace/> instances not con= verted;
then handle those manually before re-running the conversion.  I think = the
cases that _are_ handled are handled in a reasonable manner.

2. T= he conversion tool includes the current version number in I-D
citations; I regard that as a bug and strip them out.


Right.  There is a bit of a complication here in that the v2 entity references are resolved by the parser before the v2v3 conversion starts, so the information about version-agnostic or version-specific URLs is
lost early on.  What I'll do for the next release is to by default
create XInclude statements to the version-agnostic URLs, and add a
switch to retain the version-specific URLs as an alternative.

Best= regards,

Henr= ik


Regards
Brian Carpenter

On 0= 4-Nov-20 04:46, Lou Berger wrote:

Hi H= enrik,

addi= ng the --legacy flag did the trick.  Is there someway to auto-detect
use of the v2 schema -- for those who are like me and just use what has worked in the past without any attention to, or interest in,
schemas/versions?

Than= ks again,

Lou<= /p>

On 1= 1/3/2020 9:56 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

Hi L= ou,

On 2= 020-11-03 15:23, Lou Berger wrote:

Sure= , no problem. https:/= /tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-13.xml

Than= k you.

This= is a legacy (v2) schema document, without full reference include
paths.

With= the transition to versions 3.x of xml2rfc, the default is to use the
schema v3 output formatters, and in order to do so, the v2 source is
converted to v3 schema internally.

One = difference in the v2 and v3 parsers is that v3 uses XInclude to handle
inclusion, and one aspect of the XInclude specification is that it does
not permit the use of fallback locations for XInclude URLs; they have to be complete and correct, or fail.

(I i= nitially implemented the XInclude handling with the same kind of
fallbacks that exist in the v2 parser, but was told that it broke the
XInclude spec. and had to go.)

Ther= e are 3 ways around this; two which you can use immediately, and one
which I'll have to look at including in a future version of the v2-to-v3 converter:

* Pr= ovide complete explicit URLs for included references:  Instead of
<?rfc include=3D"reference.RFC.2119"?> use
<?rfc include=3D"https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bib= xml/reference.RFC.2119"?>

* Us= e the --legacy switch to process the source with the v2 parser and
formatter instances

* (F= or me) maybe modify the xml2rfc v2 to v3 converter to supply missing
reference URL paths for recognized reference file names.

Best= regards,

Henr= ik

Lou<= /p>

On 1= 1/3/2020 9:19 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

Hi L= ou,

On 2= 020-11-03 14:47, Lou Berger wrote:

Hi H= enrik,

Than= ks for the quick response.  I did a 'sudo apt install python3-pip;
pip3 install xml2rfc' yesterday (it's a new computer) so is whatever is
from the public repo.  Is this sufficient?

No, = I think I really need your xml source: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml

Henr= ik

Lou<= /p>

On 1= 1/3/2020 8:40 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

Hi L= ou,

On 2= 020-11-03 14:36, Lou Berger wrote:

Hi,<= /p>

I'm = on a new ubuntu 20.4 install (under wsl) and am getting the
previously reported (resolved?) error:

Erro= r: Unable to parse the XML document: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml
     draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.xml: Line 1498: Unable to r= esolve external
request: "reference.RFC.2119"

the = version info is:

&nbs= p;   > pip3 show xml2rfc
Name: xml2rfc
Version: 3.3.0
Summary: Xml2rfc generates RFCs and IETF drafts from document source in
XML according to the IETF xml2rfc v2 and v3 vocabularies.
Home-page: https://t= ools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/
Author: Henrik Levkowetz
Author-email: tools-discuss@ietf.org
License: BSD-3-Clause
Location: /home/lberger/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages
Requires: six, appdirs, pyyaml, setuptools, requests, pyflakes, lxml,
configargparse, html5lib, pycountry, intervaltree, jinja2,
google-i18n-address, kitchen
Required-by:

I ha= d no problems under wsl and ubuntu 18.04

Is t= here a known solution to this?

Coul= d you provide the xml source, please?

Henr= ik

____= _______________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Plea= se report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.or= g/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Plea= se report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/= issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

____= _______________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Plea= se report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.or= g/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Plea= se report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/= issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Plea= se report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.or= g/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Plea= se report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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--_000_MN2PR14MB3280DD7100ECCB95149CB7D3C3EE0MN2PR14MB3280namp_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 13:24:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5ECF3A0D68; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:24:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPkgDiPiyXBu; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2158D3A0D37; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601C538C70; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 2vDyzsQPcTXB; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01A738C69; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C73E7; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 21:24:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As people do more YANG modules, more and more logic and description moves from regular text into the YANG module. Where it is awkward and annoying to edit. And references from YANG modules don't get counted/resolved/updated, and all sorts things that the XML format was designed to solve have basically reverted to 1996 era (without even nroff) when it comes text in the YANG mo= dule. In one of my drafts, I guess some minor wording tweaks in one draft leads to some lines exceeding 72 characters (by one). Argh. Change from C-mode to text-mode. reflow. It seems like we should be thinking about what to do here. I was introduced to the SED method of fixing yang YYYYMMDD version references. While I like YANG as executable "code", it sure feels like it is not smart = to be authoring in it. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+lvvwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUgtAgAlJJpEtX3dP6SRvRBIpupvRzPZUoR+nZSjv6wlY8Ad5K0nF3U61TJiWTj AfjRJT4M8EpGjvBJHi2Db4BM7OnWSwJOzNQAOL6I6AmzSHWNRcAwAJJIUt1x6oUQ fd3KeEzhXNuAS8ubskMVREXWZzn5zcxoc1lUwCDeTIgyWRk5nm1Rzy1PtjWP5aeh P+BUDIGHFX9zGeVdeg6rwDjQCtID8cc6dOgIez7KvKJKv7Ea/tEicGJDOc0ASpzI n/mN9pDZgiZwvsnf9+1sGBRX7SURT3fvzcDqoHUK6CzIX1pDoXMz/swYcgCnensz /N6WBi5MlMF2EVxvqCmJuynSSvXTfA== =EfYT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 13:39:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EAE3A0D64; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:39:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UewZuw2eBst5; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 303233A0D2C; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CSYgR6q4wzyTN; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 22:39:15 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_58C8C253-7F88-452D-B8B4-D13F4CEBEED2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <29950.1604697852@localhost> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 22:39:15 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626391554.680174-391e03ccf2215408f507b03c20fe0ae7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 21:39:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_58C8C253-7F88-452D-B8B4-D13F4CEBEED2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 2020-11-06, at 22:24, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > In one of my drafts, I guess some minor wording tweaks in one draft = leads to > some lines exceeding 72 characters (by one). Argh. Change from C-mode = to > text-mode. reflow. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/yang-mode.el https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/yang-mode.el Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten --Apple-Mail=_58C8C253-7F88-452D-B8B4-D13F4CEBEED2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEcr05t4NZlx5Xee/8VkscnDT509sFAl+lwoIACgkQVkscnDT5 09sGwQ/+IL1PeBA7aroQBozNIFXRd2vgI84A9bJ6Am7gipYnOI1I31/dTE0UqjZO p9wefkvn1S5K2VsrXTH/Vsk9vsFr1ddvw2d6KKAt9NJbk5YbfxOqzGR4OIyQd+qI 0I5lXh1K4a+BGwCbJUHqenEbS2o57KIN6womUYIvVgijLU/CPBQ44tbTk/TSvOnz odr0f3YqiJgKiTpL/s7U9F94falE3v+FTAzEC5ctcl9MudP1vBIkCeU7hraDhHWc CzPTpF3K5I5uzfRinWfmzY8Y3+i77LRc94usa5Zk1XUR93Z6wSL6hoTTvfU7EymB 0K6fG482Lp+4dQ8iO0w+OTe4Ew7aZeeWVaVo2/QOlKmiKwLHPogOqRy6tw1POTfV 0hmuBpG2Xzx0PO4dn6yiXXkkHswqgK6UfaXmuYh+DOnzRRK4Kcizvnfz11kKh8zq g9wIlSY6lZVMd6NbOLjvRGLVRc2bxr1hBdI2f7fKlsFPf+KjrMVXNcbrITXSgeFh MrDqc8yDfkEI63UQcsWf80x2M486t4n0CArn6soLijidQ4lELkMXzZctE1rSYk0q 6JA2B7u8u9GkRTHrZQSSfJbu+euQPNwmw6LziN9PScWpGz5QunDf2sEmX8RSMjUU NW1qQI9Ee7xOGPNpJdY31U6AcbvZw6FnELpQlgnNGkAinyfxIkU= =R3hK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_58C8C253-7F88-452D-B8B4-D13F4CEBEED2-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 16:06:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446C93A03FC; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G17kgibWB0jm; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 195323A03F5; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC8338C7C; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 19:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id mg6FuKc-HO5g; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 19:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDBC38C78; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 19:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE9DE7; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 19:06:08 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 00:06:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-11-06, at 22:24, Michael Richardson w= rote: >> >> In one of my drafts, I guess some minor wording tweaks in one draft = leads to >> some lines exceeding 72 characters (by one). Argh. Change from C-mod= e to >> text-mode. reflow. > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/yang-mode.el > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/yang-mode.el Yes, turns out I already have used this, but forgot I had it. I don't see anything that helps. M-q reflowed a paragraph, but made it too long with 76 columns wide. And that still doesn't help get the references in the description right. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+l5PAACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXIiggAuA3/CXY8/QKM5i0n96x0ZhFx5rDPt70X+JZ/n47kxK2O7THYc3GO2sYe qTFkVHGjVvkoWSpBF3lcR9KIjQMzFEbgSoG2lyMYyHOuzghTlJhm7lf3/hkoUxZC P3m9KU2Ttah78HnJirin+3UHIiaB962zrm6WL5Acn63BiliALurW6IFZWmMfDmvc Sr5X8kdppbkIzk5PbKaWsfgGLQxxPUeqUoA/AFQTe91B+swB/SffqRrqsy+ErbwH fgELwhcwUS11jKqCXUeAh4Ezdqexgm6ZatBJG6RXcgEdxT5t2rniFcV6k5SGfgHm 7jVFkcJuT4wb5qAWX+JtXI4mShHsaQ== =gp9v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 20:56:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32A13A07D7 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAcgv6LYt5OH for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 503C83A07D3 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:56:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604724958; bh=y56O9KzL38cutuJvm2wfZQElr8g15ouFe2hHQQa3rJ0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=IdO1ltpi0gUPZSSVBCGZPeU9V/StSdLjzCLvV8MhVYZOWoh6pptSL8ejmP9546zYu 3AzcS79BfYuWlyakWSw2JwpUBuKRdDNkABmTFj3+3zfjGNNPuCDYSscn+QQWnkoOUD 5tvg/wOwt86ZyntCk7oeJIJJ1Xd81XXI+rRWDnZM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.156.88]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MryTF-1jwxq71tzR-00nulc for ; Sat, 07 Nov 2020 05:55:58 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 05:55:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29950.1604697852@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:x9QtIj6DySfBcTKdjEYFTRHXOHbpZS0zLSsnL5eJrRFIbr52+6q AzoaqbNG37RjSPBpXNQYboL2e+Q+ow2KAOnROP8lQMoNi6jl8an47zsiTeE/qxkwbQ1roKY 3a5dHIdi7RP3kSFSxux8AqZotvYFKkBcgB18QemP9dHWncqMd1ATeO5gs0bUxVUnZe9Trvx VMuG+J1NxqZYCSUu+NiVQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:8Zglkod5y/g=:HvjGVUIHFWiWQQvEMov5lu bJRy+X6wEtRm8qAl6gfK48l4pLxTH1vOeSt0rSwCd4KH20CjP19eAcwuc5AXKAB0/Qa9mHfL5 q8YkSiOnIFla4mczetE2ZVwqO3+wLK/ECTQhj3nbxFa1Igvhhh9Mf39+gPxWKe+ZpfSLKbhFd yXsw28WuUlmuWXPJunZqZY1I2mY77e0oHgnNutxYPKLK9c+DFKN/WErYMZ3mP71W1R8i47L/O maCFaduEcNeB7qlqEd/KN/Sqsett5hoYTQayhoY6Zmu6dZNZexrmX5dHRX8LeRgtPehLRAyoH I+3bWLO1SpmV9Vb7kaK7qmjPvLS+iZDk6bf+LugyvTGW0GYQ/MeVuWDjrSQuGCbD419vpHpk6 LCy4K2qQXphlenkSrIMmklx0iqKPzMV/feMX8ByIuFbEsIQJBHKY5cjT3Czoa2xW/54DTUULA l6qZ2ZxFn0+tXXZ5btjXp6hpOQ077Ta6qW/ToCxnZILWMsF1bC8nwJZbtt69vMiQWGNFXFA1I GJD2Urbg46DlSAIhAQZVg5YAuZDfcUP0etVm4eIVHR5PgXCGx+dfMY/gueq6jnzrNnxXpqLAb zH/5KwRpeWH8QJLNbmg9nsJRuLg/Mv1O+pmQPpR6VmFRmoN47T3bTswXGEjRJvg4BRSLN0NHj ERSMXYevXqzVHQjLkydJQltHJMm4kfHLDgXfEjY3XIPxO+VvfFoImgxl4SKqDpA60iqKARulW JJuc5KYR6DNu2znFQUeUqBgs/+V+yLVM5jcHavANZ6QkVWjp1WhkahfiH1bJo6qohQ+TjMz/z 33ZikoBQOE58uudTKUbaud7NbkuvTgt5LobDst5EV3E16M1595pZ9Z8g7dUQWYzV2JUil6BDr 0KXnr+Fwto7etJ/ChE6g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 04:56:05 -0000 Am 06.11.2020 um 22:24 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > As people do more YANG modules, more and more logic and description move= s > from regular text into the YANG module. Where it is awkward and annoyin= g to > edit. > > And references from YANG modules don't get counted/resolved/updated, and > all sorts things that the XML format was designed to solve have basicall= y > reverted to 1996 era (without even nroff) when it comes text in the YANG= module. > ... Suggestions: - find a way to break down the YANG code into smaller pieces - explore whether xml2rfc should allow limited markup in / (for references, for instance) (the latter I've been doing in rfc2629.xslt for years, see, for instance: Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Nov 6 21:07:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE373A0822; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nsDsOFDHYaoE; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6703A07F9; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CSlct0D64zyV7; Sat, 7 Nov 2020 06:07:42 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6712.1604707568@localhost> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 06:07:41 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626418461.5024869-4f2cd71870a022c7b560acb24873a411 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org> References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> <6712.1604707568@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 05:07:48 -0000 On 2020-11-07, at 01:06, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > M-q reflowed a paragraph, but made it too long with 76 columns wide. Is your .emacs setting fill-column to a non-standard value? C-x f 69 RET or put // -*- fill-column: 69 -*- into the first line of your YANG file (in a comment) or better (add-hook 'yang-mode-hook '(lambda () (set-fill-column 69))) in your .emacs. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Nov 6 21:09:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBAA3A0836 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:09:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7URi5NbNWLtR for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D76383A0844 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CSlg03xkczyV7; Sat, 7 Nov 2020 06:09:32 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 06:09:32 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626418571.800617-cbe4612db5ca29556b61084c442666a3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 05:09:36 -0000 On 2020-11-07, at 05:55, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Suggestions: >=20 > - find a way to break down the YANG code into smaller pieces > - explore whether xml2rfc should allow limited markup in > / (for references, for instance) >=20 > (the latter I've been doing in rfc2629.xslt for years, see, for > instance: = Better suggestion: Create an authoring language for YANG. (The problem is unrelated to the one xml2rfc solves.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Nov 9 01:13:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2915D3A0D6D; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 01:13:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JRXc3pLohdoV; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 01:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B08463A0D6B; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 01:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:fffe:6:a88f:7eff:fed2:45f8]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7139D1408CC; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 10:13:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1604913215; bh=mARSR43SUspbBlkAl7oz3aUe2Q4/lWZEHLDV6yBNyJU=; h=From:To:Date; b=iNgeGES9nUBgMsQw4EB4jDOY4D+pxxAsgRw0aHeJdRuq2j6mXhXilJWlpog95PWLz V7KjWYK4ezWmbmQFiSFTh6Zq9I0gpWn5DcMMT4js3RhtK/4MMkr0aq29cUIso7tsBH JQX2J3Dds+SzrZZ3HHZ99j+cWW/o7T9SG3WBNshE= From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <29950.1604697852@localhost> References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 10:13:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87zh3qdha8.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [netmod] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 09:13:41 -0000 Hi, my solution that I've been using for years is to write YANG modules in the = YIN syntax. With the nXML mode of emacs this is actually rather effective (= statement completion, on-the-fly validation). I also extended the YIN syntax with a few XML elements from the XHTML names= pace. This helps me to handle paragraphs and lists in a safe way. Descriptions etc. are then reflowed automatically as a part of XSLT transfo= rm to the compact YANG syntax. Here are the details: https://gitlab.nic.cz/labs/yang-tools/-/wikis/editing_yang See also https://github.com/llhotka/YANG-I-D Lada Michael Richardson writes: > As people do more YANG modules, more and more logic and description moves > from regular text into the YANG module. Where it is awkward and annoying= to > edit. > > And references from YANG modules don't get counted/resolved/updated, and > all sorts things that the XML format was designed to solve have basically > reverted to 1996 era (without even nroff) when it comes text in the YANG = module. > > In one of my drafts, I guess some minor wording tweaks in one draft leads= to > some lines exceeding 72 characters (by one). Argh. Change from C-mode to > text-mode. reflow. > > It seems like we should be thinking about what to do here. > I was introduced to the SED method of fixing yang YYYYMMDD version > references. > > While I like YANG as executable "code", it sure feels like it is not smar= t to > be authoring in it. > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consul= ting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Ladislav Lhotka=20 Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Nov 9 01:38:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907CC3A0DB5 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 01:38:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=broadband-forum-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cHw3Tdd3ht-P for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 01:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82C313A0DAB for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 01:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id ay21so7997357edb.2 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 01:38:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadband-forum-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9WoG6s0OpPVZ1niNFg30zcpj45hn2WLZl0fURt9+58U=; b=I+HnFvTcMu1dpwKil3C4Ruwpqmrt4r6FgYE4vPqkRqQv30M37HPrzc+W/Y2Hwwd6z9 8jT1992Ptlc3/+48nj4KJessLZLWRWKRAE49CIZ6PMsKEBoREEElIsibfN1pNf/k02er M4tDoiZxyLQFeQCjONZdcQV7LFaOcI+n2O2wiPSAFweOfjc+P25qbqr4jB20iLMgxj7+ 3lQmvqZPPfYSoQpVCEGkU2CRSpIlid05bzZhmcmKYe7tkucuWd52jc+7ki1P7PMEgUFX oGXR0NISI8nbsWKUNRJ6ONvcJjY9HUvUvsH9cQaGezrbsEUmRqYwIzAFda4omTnipOuh IChg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9WoG6s0OpPVZ1niNFg30zcpj45hn2WLZl0fURt9+58U=; b=i2SKGoD8n80/ZUfY4GJ4O/I/LR2Kz1XZq+IEvlOgr/LN+pkiBZMXKvrEJ3sLos1JuG ZuxspFJRwbECaOFlrm08nAE5CuF471xwOieDHMZKDvT6zkJOqyXefdqUzCgRqUuUm99D TcFD2nyZSjZc02dn1BMFfvJD4P3xBgymJ1cOt6bAuWue9sOVlHyy8IL+5hNparsTQ/AW lnB8W6efK39+bWEpDkRn5RCxcZnZVDsFIfNoqnQxB5hSZSjQdF03sm/dXJdE4L4CHBk8 Fur0ASUCZUVbW+niR7WJDBtEfYydba5oiROMsH3O+fvntFiEDGbgu/wet9w0RR1gS/BZ 9eDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533I/9iU+V0OelhV9L6m20XLSzgnW0cNISfmgLRDGAGYABs1KgYI CAH1UbnDvUvyg/Lh/TFt6WaqFZ9JTaZGiFjlVPI9jw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywqj9vqFmkByuLrkH5lDRcBJAMXr8dsAyaSXcg9XmIdx9hfWnFcdcyFCYDVE+06q4WKk30WmZ6oNBUQXnZdyQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:b68:: with SMTP id cb8mr14386716edb.198.1604914717829; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 01:38:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> <6712.1604707568@localhost> <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org> From: William Lupton Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 09:38:26 +0000 Message-ID: To: NetMod WG Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a6c5ca05b3a953fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [netmod] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 09:38:42 -0000 --000000000000a6c5ca05b3a953fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ensured that I have the latest version of the Emacs YANG mode, and find that M-q works well to wrap description strings, but... 1. Should I expect intelligent behaviour of RET and TAB when within a description (or other) string? I find that (in this context) RET positio= ns the cursor at the start of the line, and TAB does nothing. Ideally RET might position the cursor at the indentation point of the previous line,= or one character past the opening quote if this was the first line. 2. Wrapping (quite reasonably) can't handle cases where the author didn't in fact intend line breaks to be inserted. The most common cases = are probably (a) not using a blank line as a paragraph break, (b) text was further indented (which often implies literal text), or (c) text started with * (or -, ...) and was to be interpreted as a list item. I don't believe that RFCs 7950 and 8407 say anything about paragraph formatting, but most NETMOD YANG does seem to adhere to the convention that paragraphs should be separated by blank lines. Perhaps this could be made into a stronger convention? As for the other cases (further indentation -> literal, and */- mean list items), of course this is getting back to the markdown discussion. I believe that when this has come up before the discussion has died for want of clear standards. However I do believe that it would be very useful to define some layout conventions (or rules) that allow automated reflow and other formatting, and personally I would take it further than just the three points that I have mentioned! It doesn't have to be called 'markdown'... William On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 05:07, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-11-07, at 01:06, Michael Richardson wrote= : > > > > M-q reflowed a paragraph, but made it too long with 76 columns wide. > > Is your .emacs setting fill-column to a non-standard value? > > C-x f 69 RET > > or put > > // -*- fill-column: 69 -*- > > into the first line of your YANG file (in a comment) > or better > > (add-hook 'yang-mode-hook > '(lambda () (set-fill-column 69))) > > in your .emacs. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000a6c5ca05b3a953fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I ensured that I have th= e latest version of the Emacs YANG mode, and find that M-q works well to wr= ap description strings, but...
  1. Should I expect intelligen= t behaviour of RET and TAB when within a description (or other) string? I f= ind that (in this context) RET positions the cursor at the start of the lin= e, and TAB does nothing. Ideally RET might position the cursor at the inden= tation point of the previous line, or one character past the opening quote = if this was the first line.
  2. Wrapping (quite reasonably) can't h= andle cases where the author didn't in fact intend line breaks to be in= serted. The most common cases are probably (a) not using a blank line as a = paragraph break, (b) text was further indented (which often implies literal= text), or (c) text started with * (or -, ...) and was to be interpreted=C2= =A0as a list item.
I don't believe that RFCs 7950 and 840= 7 say anything about paragraph formatting, but most NETMOD YANG does seem t= o adhere to the convention that paragraphs should be separated by blank lin= es. Perhaps this could be made into a stronger convention?
=
As for the other cases (further indentation=C2=A0-> liter= al, and */- mean list items), of course this is getting back to the markdow= n discussion. I believe that when this has come up before the discussion ha= s died for want of clear standards. However I do believe that it would be v= ery useful to define some layout conventions (or rules) that allow automate= d reflow and other formatting, and personally I would take it further than = just the three points that I have mentioned! It doesn't have to be call= ed 'markdown'...

William

O= n Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 05:07, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2020-11-07, at 01:06, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>
> M-q reflowed a paragraph, but made it too long with 76 columns wide.
Is your .emacs setting fill-column to a non-standard value?

C-x f 69 RET

or put

// -*- fill-column: 69 -*-

into the first line of your YANG file (in a comment)
or better

(add-hook 'yang-mode-hook
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 '(lambda () (set-fill-column 69)))
in your .emacs.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:47:19 +0000 From: tom petch To: William Lupton , NetMod WG CC: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances Thread-Index: AQHWtIVPFZocxuJGgUeW6JxdvypooKm7yosAgABUQICAA3BPAIABxEr2 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:47:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> <6712.1604707568@localhost> <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: broadband-forum.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;broadband-forum.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-originating-ip: [86.146.121.140] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 97abc7aa-ef6e-4556-73d5-08d88576c29f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM7PR07MB6706: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 97abc7aa-ef6e-4556-73d5-08d88576c29f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Nov 2020 12:47:18.9874 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: r5tEnLxguERCktjsEu8S2AfMQaIToGu/Zvgp6nUzSb5tH8A1+H+DXZ2g05ZTB9Vc3tQ1fOV2299bq5pRNnmStQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6706 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [netmod] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:47:32 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of William Lupton =0A= Sent: 09 November 2020 09:38=0A= To: NetMod WG=0A= Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [netmod] [Tools-discuss] reflow of YANG descriptions, and gene= ral YANG format annoyances=0A= =0A= I ensured that I have the latest version of the Emacs YANG mode, and find t= hat M-q works well to wrap description strings, but...=0A= =0A= 1. Should I expect intelligent behaviour of RET and TAB when within a de= scription (or other) string? I find that (in this context) RET positions th= e cursor at the start of the line, and TAB does nothing. Ideally RET might = position the cursor at the indentation point of the previous line, or one c= haracter past the opening quote if this was the first line.=0A= 2. Wrapping (quite reasonably) can't handle cases where the author didn'= t in fact intend line breaks to be inserted. The most common cases are prob= ably (a) not using a blank line as a paragraph break, (b) text was further = indented (which often implies literal text), or (c) text started with * (or= -, ...) and was to be interpreted as a list item.=0A= =0A= I don't believe that RFCs 7950 and 8407 say anything about paragraph format= ting, but most NETMOD YANG does seem to adhere to the convention that parag= raphs should be separated by blank lines. Perhaps this could be made into a= stronger convention?=0A= =0A= As for the other cases (further indentation -> literal, and */- mean list i= tems), of course this is getting back to the markdown discussion. I believe= that when this has come up before the discussion has died for want of clea= r standards. However I do believe that it would be very useful to define so= me layout conventions (or rules) that allow automated reflow and other form= atting, and personally I would take it further than just the three points t= hat I have mentioned! It doesn't have to be called 'markdown'...=0A= =0A= =0A= In the category of general annoyance, rather than the points above, the IET= F has abolished the page number. Look at recent RFC and pagination has van= ished. The justification is that RFC are now available in different format= and that page numbers are not consistent across the format so they must be= eliminated.=0A= =0A= This came up on RFC Interest and I asked how to reference a piece of text a= nd was told that you include lots of section numbers. I asked about 50-pag= e YANG modules with no sections but this is a requirement that has escaped = the tool-makers. One suggestion was to include lots of numbered sub-headin= gs, another to include separate sourcecode elements with an anchor for each= .=0A= One passing comment was that with v3 xml the extraction code should not be = needed any more. I do not understand but expect that there will be interes= ting times.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= William=0A= =0A= On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 05:07, Carsten Bormann > wrote:=0A= On 2020-11-07, at 01:06, Michael Richardson > wrote:=0A= >=0A= > M-q reflowed a paragraph, but made it too long with 76 columns wide.=0A= =0A= Is your .emacs setting fill-column to a non-standard value?=0A= =0A= C-x f 69 RET=0A= =0A= or put=0A= =0A= // -*- fill-column: 69 -*-=0A= =0A= into the first line of your YANG file (in a comment)=0A= or better=0A= =0A= (add-hook 'yang-mode-hook=0A= '(lambda () (set-fill-column 69)))=0A= =0A= in your .emacs.=0A= =0A= Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Wed Nov 11 05:52:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A9E3A08BD; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 05:52:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qvYwlgaXdYxx; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 05:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A31EB3A0D94; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 05:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:29:ffff:fc73:fa64:57e6:2115]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7FB54140A24; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:52:41 +0100 (CET) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: tom petch , William Lupton , NetMod WG Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> <6712.1604707568@localhost> <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org> Mail-Followup-To: tom petch , William Lupton , NetMod WG , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:52:41 +0100 Message-ID: <87tutwj906.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [netmod] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:52:47 -0000 tom petch writes: > > > In the category of general annoyance, rather than the points above, the I= ETF has abolished the page number. Look at recent RFC and pagination has v= anished. The justification is that RFC are now available in different form= at and that page numbers are not consistent across the format so they must = be eliminated. > > This came up on RFC Interest and I asked how to reference a piece of text= and was told that you include lots of section numbers. I asked about 50-p= age YANG modules with no sections but this is a requirement that has escape= d the tool-makers. One suggestion was to include lots of numbered sub-head= ings, another to include separate sourcecode elements with an anchor for ea= ch. I share your concerns, but these developments are hard to avoid - people wa= nt to read the documents on the small screens of their phones, and a fixed = format isn't well suited for that. > One passing comment was that with v3 xml the extraction code should not b= e needed any more. I do not understand but expect that there will be inter= esting times. I don't know what the plan is, but in the recent survey on IETF authoring t= ools, I suggested the option of including YANG modules in xml2rfc sources a= s foreign-namespace blocks in the YIN format. This could solve most of thes= e issues and, in particular, allow for safely reflowing text in description= s etc. along with the rest of the RFC. Regarding markup inside description/contact/reference/error-message, I thin= k XML is in fact still the best option. Light-weight choices such as markdo= wn are too brittle for these purposes. Lada > > Tom Petch > > William > > On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 05:07, Carsten Bormann > wrote: > On 2020-11-07, at 01:06, Michael Richardson > wrote: >> >> M-q reflowed a paragraph, but made it too long with 76 columns wide. > > Is your .emacs setting fill-column to a non-standard value? > > C-x f 69 RET > > or put > > // -*- fill-column: 69 -*- > > into the first line of your YANG file (in a comment) > or better > > (add-hook 'yang-mode-hook > '(lambda () (set-fill-column 69))) > > in your .emacs. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Ladislav Lhotka=20 Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Wed Nov 11 10:54:36 2020 Return-Path: <01000175b8a8c97a-da2bdc7c-435a-425d-9b45-8eeb581bdeea-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9DF3A0D20; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:54:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLv5Yfchx7XP; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BEDB3A0D45; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:54:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=224i4yxa5dv7c2xz3womw6peuasteono; d=amazonses.com; t=1605120870; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=iijLOijHdWtIHFv735btoFgrW/xlzMIA8OamyABbjtU=; b=K9zkj0p1DPIf8cBx+gNTWKcXbX/EqBjhwHnW1eF5rJrib+dNgConJrC67QvdFcUk Sb7qrqq+3lByNcMHJeTKQi8S39Obt4lUMRlyvmg1vEv9OTM2Uuti2VgABNiFnAZL7yJ c2O9mC0wRnr3iDkoi7kvtPQey9gSaSpn+kUbzuxs= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: <87tutwj906.fsf@nic.cz> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 18:54:30 +0000 Cc: tom petch , William Lupton , "netmod@ietf.org" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <01000175b8a8c97a-da2bdc7c-435a-425d-9b45-8eeb581bdeea-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> <6712.1604707568@localhost> <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org> <87tutwj906.fsf@nic.cz> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.11.11-54.240.8.96 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [netmod] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 18:54:34 -0000 As a contributor: I don=E2=80=99t like the YIN format, but Lada makes some good points = below. I don=E2=80=99t understand the "extraction code should not be needed any = more=E2=80=9D comment, but know that Shepherds and, to a lesser extent, = Copy Editors, rely on being able to extract the YANG modules and/or = instance examples from the `xml2rfc` XML files. K. > On Nov 11, 2020, at 8:52 AM, Ladislav Lhotka = wrote: >=20 > tom petch writes: >=20 >>=20 >> >> In the category of general annoyance, rather than the points above, = the IETF has abolished the page number. Look at recent RFC and = pagination has vanished. The justification is that RFC are now = available in different format and that page numbers are not consistent = across the format so they must be eliminated. >>=20 >> This came up on RFC Interest and I asked how to reference a piece of = text and was told that you include lots of section numbers. I asked = about 50-page YANG modules with no sections but this is a requirement = that has escaped the tool-makers. One suggestion was to include lots of = numbered sub-headings, another to include separate sourcecode elements = with an anchor for each. >=20 > I share your concerns, but these developments are hard to avoid - = people want to read the documents on the small screens of their phones, = and a fixed format isn't well suited for that. >=20 >> One passing comment was that with v3 xml the extraction code should = not be needed any more. I do not understand but expect that there will = be interesting times. >=20 > I don't know what the plan is, but in the recent survey on IETF = authoring tools, I suggested the option of including YANG modules in = xml2rfc sources as foreign-namespace blocks in the YIN format. This = could solve most of these issues and, in particular, allow for safely = reflowing text in descriptions etc. along with the rest of the RFC. >=20 > Regarding markup inside description/contact/reference/error-message, I = think XML is in fact still the best option. Light-weight choices such as = markdown are too brittle for these purposes. >=20 > Lada From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:02:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1253A0FF5; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:02:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kPlL5_1xNG8c; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A80D63A1220; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CWbGd4hTJzySb; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 21:01:45 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <01000175b8a8c97a-da2bdc7c-435a-425d-9b45-8eeb581bdeea-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 21:01:45 +0100 Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , tom petch , "netmod@ietf.org" , William Lupton X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626817705.134884-b0d1cfd738be0c102a928bfa8261d995 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <48F05081-414D-4EEE-9BA7-FA7B2F5B19EE@tzi.org> References: <29950.1604697852@localhost> <008B882D-102D-4AEA-AF59-E259F07089CB@tzi.org> <6712.1604707568@localhost> <4BC302A5-D990-45EE-85C2-196BBC1D09DF@tzi.org> <87tutwj906.fsf@nic.cz> <01000175b8a8c97a-da2bdc7c-435a-425d-9b45-8eeb581bdeea-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: Kent Watsen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [netmod] reflow of YANG descriptions, and general YANG format annoyances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:02:46 -0000 On 2020-11-11, at 19:54, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t understand the "extraction code should not be needed = any more=E2=80=9D comment, but know that Shepherds and, to a lesser = extent, Copy Editors, rely on being able to extract the YANG modules = and/or instance examples from the `xml2rfc` XML files. Once you have the XML for the RFC: See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8152#page-7 for the right way to do this. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 12 19:03:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868A23A13A4 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UJVpTDSxEA9R; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 819B13A12FB; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <60865640-10A3-457A-B6F4-4008DF78F194@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:03:42 +1300 To: RFC Interest , Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Preliminary survey results- I-D Authors: Formats and Tools X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 03:03:56 -0000 I=E2=80=99ve put together a basic web report on the results of the = survey "I-D Authors: Formats and Tools" https://ql.tc/T0WvDV When I get some time to learn the new system better I will attempt to = create a decent PDF and do a blog post with some analysis. If anyone wants the data then please let me know - I have a reasonably = usable dataset I can share. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Fri Nov 13 14:06:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23D63A0D72 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:06:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKaeZWiTtaIK for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EE373A0D6D for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EC9BE55; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 22:06:20 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2kmZrSkxSdE; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 22:06:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E78D7BE53; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 22:06:17 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1605305178; bh=raWq4yh7utP5jdRTqQlgMUz2Pxg647bPaYOCCRlGq7Q=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JV56CMx9+Cs3ylaUEKk1cYtqYWWbZvqT04xGP2+CCCxUzZcZ2v3R7M5avWYh6K44Y GgqMDdRQCjqGERP4zDrVW946db/3upg4/DitmY/PzHgVAyAFnPAb9AQ1+PUB4Yo31o dAbxfU/ZGceBgt4ggbVB6C12yjPzy4KyllYrQPRo= To: Robert Sparks References: Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 22:06:16 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MMAqnwZ8Yb3VTm3xW4hzTLyIivuF36rDt" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: Trial chat services are running - please expore them. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 22:06:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --MMAqnwZ8Yb3VTm3xW4hzTLyIivuF36rDt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JhprFrfZZQ89z7KHJ8ppGCkUwIhRqKJsO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Robert Sparks Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Message-ID: Subject: Re: Reminder: Trial chat services are running - please expore them. References: In-Reply-To: --JhprFrfZZQ89z7KHJ8ppGCkUwIhRqKJsO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CB60837DD7F6E00519EDE664" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CB60837DD7F6E00519EDE664 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I posted this to the hallway@ matrix room, but no harm here too I guess: =2E..this seems to work from my element client (ubuntu) using/via my own = matrix.org server, which is nice. Only noteworthy thing is when I tried=20 to add a room, via "explore public rooms", then "add a new server" I=20 pasted in the URL https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org/ and got an error -=20 just providing the DNS name worked fine (though with some slowness so=20 someone trying it might cancel out) Cheers, S. On 13/11/2020 21:35, Robert Sparks wrote: > Please spend some time exploring the trial chat services and provide=20 > feedback. > We have deploying these services to gain operational experience and get= > community feedback about how well they meet the need for IETF-related c= hat. >=20 > Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 > See: > https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org > https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org > https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org >=20 > See also the announcement of these services at > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/UtPuWgXhYbjyf7wHGJh= 4ax4kQrA/and=20 >=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/B1b71fKWGfAq0ZKJ0KS= wxzn7WgI/=20 >=20 >=20 > Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback=20 > received to > inform which chat services we provide in the future and how we will ope= rate > them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not=20 > intend to > preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from the = > trial > instances as we move forward. >=20 > The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. Howeve= r, > please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/). >=20 > Robert Sparks - Tools team project manager >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --------------CB60837DD7F6E00519EDE664 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn 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19:33:44 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=C gAMiI3lETCi9482EL6fkPwtZS/h3XiqcaOstta1ScI=; b=FXKmNMO5jPsillnH+ EcIWWvsBcFxVms7EL5WOArJKmi2bagYXozSAQAfTsHQoI2TIzQ3LiWPC0r1x1LSl Ea4cDdJ8VqPpTPGXNC4Np2m9IJvdz7wIXOS9r/MHH4T0aJpGhKLLZEgtd97Sdj5q GRhQkgX/ux2PYWAVfm+6cDz4rh3BoNCRVsbJH8sdUc123JFLmeJCb2VULeNcrzxv +seJnDtrw19KGIbqWwGSAnGX5wmvr0GX20VphYgywQ3q3ps9VAEvxHwoEXr6bNxM AhrLOHgJ7FnBiNq4QKf4kuMrPpeUWZbaTv9dGU0479KXbHhv+O0z2kw4keMAPuyU 3bLOQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=CgAMiI3lETCi9482EL6fkPwtZS/h3XiqcaOstta1S cI=; b=KrdB/L8BgKLu/EXVr7/bcoyLVamhpmiMX1Dxl+QjmQBe29o7HUDEoXkNd 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(cpc152095-haye27-2-0-cust2.17-4.cable.virginm.net [82.40.93.3]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BC8043280063 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 19:33:43 -0500 (EST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Matthew Hodgson Organization: The Matrix.org Foundation C.I.C Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 00:33:42 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:83.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/83.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: Trial chat services are running - please expore them. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 00:33:47 -0000 Oops - thanks, filed as https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/15724 On 13/11/2020 22:06, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > I posted this to the hallway@ matrix room, but no harm here > too I guess: > > ...this seems to work from my element client (ubuntu) using/via my own > matrix.org server, which is nice. Only noteworthy thing is when I > tried to add a room, via "explore public rooms", then "add a new > server" I pasted in the URL https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org/ and got an > error - just providing the DNS name worked fine (though with some > slowness so someone trying it might cancel out) > > Cheers, > S. -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From nobody Sat Nov 14 03:54:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508E73A154F for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 03:54:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AP7EbWdGQD14 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 03:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (relay7-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31BDD3A154E for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 03:54:12 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: 91.193.5.42 Received: from [10.68.184.71] (unknown [91.193.5.42]) (Authenticated sender: sebastian@kip.pe) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 599A420009 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:54:09 +0000 (UTC) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Sebastian Kippe X-Enigmail-Version: 2.1.8 Autocrypt: addr=sebastian@kip.pe; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXteFhxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAiCBGb2r01jd7lUn1wYH/bsZn1GnZtxEXTYXgTSLFtni0 IlNlYmFzdGlhbiBLaXBwZSA8c2ViYXN0aWFuQGtpcC5wZT6IlgQTFggAPhYhBPD77N0WDQq2 h2iQup+IAJ0x2ZxyBQJe14WHAhsDBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJ EJ+IAJ0x2ZxyYKEA/2Exbqlb0XVs94jMzISzm507PcwvEcGn2coA/dFqcsFKAQCDsVGVaUQG rZ7jH8pDAKCHMJimWn4K/fe/+JiAbD0RDrg4BF7XhYcSCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0A7h8e2kjOT WQfP6S71RtoTrrCokw/cxwLU9TcsEEHpLQMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBPD77N0WDQq2h2iQup+I AJ0x2ZxyBQJe14WHAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEJ+IAJ0x2ZxyFkAA/3C1z4ZPPYuIT+p3PWr6zlZw CzpQASwMZ/KVLhTZBmcYAP4yJ3GM/5QxZdX7j7IiLaokow68hIblWQCGz4gvju2vCrg4BF7X hYcSCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0A7h8e2kjOTWQfP6S71RtoTrrCokw/cxwLU9TcsEEHpLQMBCAeI fgQYFggAJhYhBPD77N0WDQq2h2iQup+IAJ0x2ZxyBQJe14WHAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEJ+IAJ0x 2ZxyFkAA/3C1z4ZPPYuIT+p3PWr6zlZwCzpQASwMZ/KVLhTZBmcYAP4yJ3GM/5QxZdX7j7Ii Laokow68hIblWQCGz4gvju2vCrg4BF7XhYcSCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0A7h8e2kjOTWQfP6S71 RtoTrrCokw/cxwLU9TcsEEHpLQMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBPD77N0WDQq2h2iQup+IAJ0x2Zxy BQJe14WHAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEJ+IAJ0x2ZxyFkAA/3C1z4ZPPYuIT+p3PWr6zlZwCzpQASwM Z/KVLhTZBmcYAP4yJ3GM/5QxZdX7j7IiLaokow68hIblWQCGz4gvju2vCg== Message-ID: <4d91f8a6-30fb-e092-67ae-e58ffaa8e6f0@kip.pe> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 12:54:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] XMPP room improvements X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:54:15 -0000 Hi all, A couple of people and I have made some suggestions for improving the XMPP experience, both with normal clients as well as the new Web client trial, in hallway@jabber.ietf.org. Someone then directed me to this list for submitting them to the right people. So here goes: 1. Turn on MAM (Message Archive Management) for persistent rooms Missing room history from when you're offline, or because you hadn't joined yet, is one of the biggest deficiencies of IRC. Luckily, there's XEP 313, which is supported by all popular XMPP servers and most popular clients: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html Whoever has the permission to configure rooms should be able to simply turn this on in the room settings from their client. 2. Configure human-readable room names, and add room descriptions There are configuration properties for both a human-readable room name, as well as room descriptions. A very simple change, but drastically improves the experience, especially for users trying to find the right rooms. This can also be configured from a client, when you have the right permissions. 3. Configure room avatars Human brains prefer images to pretty much all other information for sub-second parsing. Aside from making everything look much nicer in general, setting room avatars make it easier to discern between rooms in one's client, when joined to many different rooms on many servers. Unlike the other 2 suggestions, this one requires a small amount of work, of course, in that someone has to create square room avatar images before configuring/uploading them from a client. Cheers, Basti From nobody Sat Nov 14 18:05:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59A83A0E7A; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 18:05:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sK6UKyCmF-fU; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 18:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34BAB3A0E76; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 18:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A78A389C5; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 21:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 81YzctUUrFjG; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 21:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEE3389C3; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 21:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6D71AA; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 21:05:24 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: WG Chairs , Sebastian Kippe cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4d91f8a6-30fb-e092-67ae-e58ffaa8e6f0@kip.pe> References: <4d91f8a6-30fb-e092-67ae-e58ffaa8e6f0@kip.pe> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] XMPP room improvements X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 02:05:31 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sebastian Kippe wrote: > 3. Configure room avatars > Human brains prefer images to pretty much all other information for > sub-second parsing. Aside from making everything look much nicer in > general, setting room avatars make it easier to discern between rooms= in > one's client, when joined to many different rooms on many servers. > Unlike the other 2 suggestions, this one requires a small amount of > work, of course, in that someone has to create square room avatar ima= ges > before configuring/uploading them from a client. So, since most rooms are associated with WGs, it seems that really, each WG needs to come up with a reasonable WG avatar. Some have them (6tisch comes to mind). Most don't, but might want to think about it, because it also helps with slides, etc. What kind of resolution can/should this square room avatar be? =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+wjOQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVLUwf+I2elafHyM4gYc3Ey3yufAqU50Sm0/lRKT/o+psKsX3f7PGa7W0ZzI+mL oyGQB3WAjn/cXosOgRi26iRARU60x91/3GqmZ4LDZ3z8kBC2uTsw6QLe1SOqBqHX CzEU1T35uxOkQLbasDpXB3A0dgBKZfVoK4arUKMZSwr2cgDIuBUtWK0/h8CecX1w rQYpvVinFyv1xR53G5sAjrqqRiK9c5fdW/kpF+xSOcm8wzCyGlTLV+W3fHhjVuvu 6POWkOu8GENPYdk93/PM0Zrkq/d+Df9O4+C07U5kl/K+8wSOH2cYBxjeTMBdoa2X Iv3xvvdoPu8EYOk08Uoe+/BzMICTpw== =tn7V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 07:42:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921BB3A133C; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:42:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oahxdy5866SD; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69C5C3A133B; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.10.190] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F3C9829C0A; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 10:42:25 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1605454946; bh=4sngc6u5RSdH5OTjAWEt3LDrpW7u8zHzJCnEDONtbZc=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=YK63acEsshUmhFI8cN9F6fvyAP1J7dNTPMGLRBbjVGTNmSIEQ9GAAq+kn6udURdgH Dxrc8IbsK7IlHHn5ogZUh7EQ/dlntc29ot1G4L+iRqBwGChqyjDKvLMwrheUpS2r8j SMqJ/EHmkDkhvz5Ifv4e95EQ/JoxEG+8IZ9ESG7Wjp1WcLWCO1huLpXGu9W64tCXPQ iL7fEKeu5SxUtqugsNbhEamLb041i0R2iqIDso8K2rrV7RbtgjdOiBaGzCwZjZhf/V QGlYbvlxSYzvU4cTnLw/KNy3WE4XNd93jBwVYkAShDrJ9rq4+jEnDOcGifTzpqgTI4 C+EAw6XqGs2Yw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 10:42:25 -0500 Message-Id: <8302EB0D-5674-4DC5-BFDE-3DF04A89FC6D@bangj.com> References: <6090.1605405924@localhost> Cc: WG Chairs , Sebastian Kippe , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6090.1605405924@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] XMPP room improvements X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 15:42:34 -0000 > On Nov 14, 2020, at 9:05 PM, Michael Richardson wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Sebastian Kippe wrote: >> 3. Configure room avatars >=20 >> Human brains prefer images to pretty much all other information for >> sub-second parsing. Aside from making everything look much nicer in >> general, setting room avatars make it easier to discern between rooms in >> one's client, when joined to many different rooms on many servers. >> Unlike the other 2 suggestions, this one requires a small amount of >> work, of course, in that someone has to create square room avatar images >> before configuring/uploading them from a client. >=20 > So, since most rooms are associated with WGs, it seems that really, each W= G > needs to come up with a reasonable WG avatar. Some have them (6tisch come= s > to mind). Most don't, but might want to think about it, because it also > helps with slides, etc When I was coming up with ways to distinguish working groups visually in the= iPhone/iPad app, I ended up using a color by Area. Many people work inter-a= rea but having an anchor like the area color helps quickly distinguish group= s. I suggest just creating the WG abbreviation inside a colored square that is t= he same background color for all working groups in an area. I don=E2=80=99t mind doing this for each working group if that becomes the c= onsensus moving forward. Tom From nobody Mon Nov 16 02:49:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201F33A0858 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 02:49:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f1Sa1Uo46NEf for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 02:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCE693A0844 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 02:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CZQmV1b3DzyWW; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:48:58 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627216537.69701-0908823b14e1162aa0a0e773175ad07a Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:48:57 +0100 Message-Id: To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] IETFers tool shows CoRE agenda only for Tuesday X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:49:03 -0000 There are separate agenda files for the Tue and Fri core meeting =E2=80=94= it seems I can only get to the Tue agenda from the iOS version of = IETFers. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Nov 16 04:46:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D453A0E5F for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:46:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.095 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I5HwX6YddVW5 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9257A3A0E60 for ; 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boundary="_000_DBD833177C38Fdominiquebarthelorangecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho sound, stereo positioning X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:46:09 -0000 --_000_DBD833177C38Fdominiquebarthelorangecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gYWxsLA0KDQpDb25ncmF0cyBmb3IgdGhlIHRvb2xzIHByb3ZpZGVkIGZvciB0aGlzIG9u LWxpbmUgSUVURjEwOSBtZWV0aW5nLiBCb3RoIEdhdGhlciBhbmQgTWVldGVjaG8gaGF2ZSBiZWVu IHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JlYXQgZm9yIG1lIHNvIGZhciBhbmQgSSBsb3ZlIHRoZS4NCg0KSSBoYXZlIGEg c3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBmb3IgTWVldGVjaG86IHNpbmNlIHlvdSBhbHJlYWR5IGhhdmUgYW4gImF1ZGlv IGNvbnRyb2wiIGJhciBhdCB0aGUgYm90dG9tIHJpZ2h0IG9mIHRoZSB3aW5kb3csIGNvdWxkIHlv dSBhZGQgYSAicGFuIiBzbGlkZXIvYnV0dG9uIHRvIHBvc2l0aW9uIHRoZSBhdWRpbyBzb3VyY2Ug aW4gc3RlcmVvc2NvcGljIHNwYWNlPw0KTm90IHVyZ2VudCwgbm90IG9mIHV0bW9zdCBpbXBvcnRh bmNlLCBidXQgd2h5IG5vdCBhc2s/DQoNCldoYXQgd291bGQgb25lIHVlcyBJdCBmb3I/IEkgYXR0 ZW5kZWQgdHdvIHNlc3Npb25zIGluIHBhcmFsbGVsIHRoaXMgbW9ybmluZywgaW5jbHVkaW5nIGJv dGggYXVkaW9zLCBlc3NlbnRpYWxseSBob3BwaW5nIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIHR3byBzZXNzaW9ucyBk ZXBlbmRpbmcgb24gdGhlIHRvcGljIGJlaW5nIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBhdCBhIGdpdmVuIHRpbWUsIHdo aWxlIGtlZXBpbmcgYW4gZWFyIG9wZW4gZm9yIHRoZSBvdGhlciBzZXNzaW9uLg0KSXQgd291bGQg aGVscCBteSBicmFpbiBhIGxvdCBiZWluZyBhYmxlIHRvIGZvY3VzIG9uIG9uZSBjb252ZXJzYXRp b24gYW5kIHRlbXBvcmFyaWx5IGlnbm9yZSB0aGUgb3RoZXIgb25lIGlmIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBzZXBh cmF0ZWQgaW4gc3BhY2UsIGxpa2UgdGhleSBhcmUgaW4gcmVhbCBsaWZlLiBObyBtYXR0ZXIgd2hv IGlzIHNwZWFraW5nLCBsZWZ0IGlzIHRoaXMgc2Vzc2lvbiwgcmlnaHQgaXMgdGhhdCBvbmUuDQpU aGlzIHdvdWxkIGJlIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgYmVuZWZpY2lhbCBpbiB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb25zL2Fuc3dl cnMgcGhhc2VzIG9mIHRoZSBzZXNzaW9ucywgd2hlcmUgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGZyZXF1ZW50bHkgY2hh bmdlcyBpbiBzcGVha2VyJ3Mgdm9pY2VzIGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIGF1ZGlvIHN0cmVhbS4NClRoZSAi cGFuIiBjb250cm9sIGNvdWxkIGJlIHZlcnkgY29hcnNlLCBvciBldmVuIHJlcGxhY2VkIHdpdGgg YSBtb3N0bHkgbGVmdC9jZW50ZXIvbW9zdGx5IHJpZ2h0IHRvZ2dsZSwgaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBy ZWFsIGVzdGF0ZSBpc3N1ZSBpbiB0aGUgd2luZG93Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgYXR0ZW50 aW9uDQoNCkRvbWluaXF1ZQ0KCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KCkNlIG1lc3NhZ2UgZXQgc2VzIHBpZWNlcyBqb2lu dGVzIHBldXZlbnQgY29udGVuaXIgZGVzIGluZm9ybWF0aW9ucyBjb25maWRlbnRpZWxsZXMgb3Ug cHJpdmlsZWdpZWVzIGV0IG5lIGRvaXZlbnQgZG9uYwpwYXMgZXRyZSBkaWZmdXNlcywgZXhwbG9p dGVzIG91IGNvcGllcyBzYW5zIGF1dG9yaXNhdGlvbi4gU2kgdm91cyBhdmV6IHJlY3UgY2UgbWVz c2FnZSBwYXIgZXJyZXVyLCB2ZXVpbGxleiBsZSBzaWduYWxlcgphIGwnZXhwZWRpdGV1ciBldCBs ZSBkZXRydWlyZSBhaW5zaSBxdWUgbGVzIHBpZWNlcyBqb2ludGVzLiBMZXMgbWVzc2FnZXMgZWxl Y3Ryb25pcXVlcyBldGFudCBzdXNjZXB0aWJsZXMgZCdhbHRlcmF0aW9uLApPcmFuZ2UgZGVjbGlu ZSB0b3V0ZSByZXNwb25zYWJpbGl0ZSBzaSBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIGEgZXRlIGFsdGVyZSwgZGVmb3Jt ZSBvdSBmYWxzaWZpZS4gTWVyY2kuCgpUaGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIGl0cyBhdHRhY2htZW50cyBt YXkgY29udGFpbiBjb25maWRlbnRpYWwgb3IgcHJpdmlsZWdlZCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0aGF0IG1h eSBiZSBwcm90ZWN0ZWQgYnkgbGF3Owp0aGV5IHNob3VsZCBub3QgYmUgZGlzdHJpYnV0ZWQsIHVz ZWQgb3IgY29waWVkIHdpdGhvdXQgYXV0aG9yaXNhdGlvbi4KSWYgeW91IGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQg dGhpcyBlbWFpbCBpbiBlcnJvciwgcGxlYXNlIG5vdGlmeSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyIGFuZCBkZWxldGUg dGhpcyBtZXNzYWdlIGFuZCBpdHMgYXR0YWNobWVudHMuCkFzIGVtYWlscyBtYXkgYmUgYWx0ZXJl ZCwgT3JhbmdlIGlzIG5vdCBsaWFibGUgZm9yIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHRoYXQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIG1vZGlm aWVkLCBjaGFuZ2VkIG9yIGZhbHNpZmllZC4KVGhhbmsgeW91LgoK --_000_DBD833177C38Fdominiquebarthelorangecom_ Content-Type: text/html; 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Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:57:16 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1605535036; bh=V1rhBsZ2BPpojCcgxzd850cZhmU6KzK43fhnHa4V9gM=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=LeZuwX2OEOSFhF7pmdUUcADp8KGaCgAbnDYrr0V5toF7j0I7r8A79tWhtjx9AdOai illuq4Gsk6Us2wUxemzxqB0BrVnUDbmYX781GC28unvdVXBzmoJPbfmZCdov1nAGgA gBTYhMIhXacV+iKenjHLNoqTW60I/LzeMvu48kzkOT/eADYxF4kF9I8Ju661l6WDBm t0h6ayWuKMtp2K7GSV6zfApHbVMnZ8Sk1zvKCrBHYMod7no+mWdtjEg6iLy1gys+KQ goghmZQqyNmoDGTm0e7AcL2xk1RKDy2iOmKjw8JIfLWUR3AJRBrAeIu4pwATy16K4w H6gRLIL0rkL5w== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:57:15 -0500 Message-Id: <28484220-2350-4746-975E-66AAB3F21957@bangj.com> References: Cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] IETFers tool shows CoRE agenda only for Tuesday X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:57:20 -0000 > On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThere are separate agenda files for the Tue and Fri core meeting =E2= =80=94 it seems I can only get to the Tue agenda from the iOS version of IET= Fers. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten Based on other reports, I have reproduced a time zone bug where sessions are= missing when in Local Time.=20 Can you look at Settings and verify if you are in Local Time and if you swit= ch out of it, do your missing sessions appear? Tom= From nobody Mon Nov 16 06:02:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74C13A100C for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:02:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tw3AoBHMq7gp for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 284CE3A100E for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.10.144] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 25BA529D02; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:02:08 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1605535328; bh=9t1ggNK8szKi0u190AYgNVH46z92osvVrQgnMZ2JSyc=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=S2JSmt9ruuty3db1FXBoC4R/Z6iLk2k7BVqwXGFkIxNYo/ENRcxitX227eOxauwOR JLyOOsm53C2iXZiBy++cSuuusR5dIwbBFxdqR6giLB/7Eq4QE4FXN6B2cRfbHM2n36 Xcz/GNXPcjopBJIZ7aoM28Irtz5HfdVs0d2mL/hj9S2pFfQZCJqPFVoznvtZnrpSWL ZnIpSMnn4FgSRJf9HNPBPafNZHhhT0A29wld62hDu3IZxmRSY8jLIBDMkDCAkoJb/0 i11/QahvVKxyATmSEFt9RMLxl+YLgNaBe9mcePV0yw5rRoTP0dYvj8firjdvW6/Qel KiE/MdXQt6XlA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:02:06 -0500 Message-Id: <19C432DB-4869-418E-A085-EB03E1717CE0@bangj.com> References: <28484220-2350-4746-975E-66AAB3F21957@bangj.com> Cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <28484220-2350-4746-975E-66AAB3F21957@bangj.com> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] IETFers tool shows CoRE agenda only for Tuesday X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:02:12 -0000 > On Nov 16, 2020, at 8:57 AM, Tom Pusateri wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFThere are separate agenda files for the Tue and Fri core meeting= =E2=80=94 it seems I can only get to the Tue agenda from the iOS version of= IETFers. >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > Based on other reports, I have reproduced a time zone bug where sessions a= re missing when in Local Time.=20 >=20 > Can you look at Settings and verify if you are in Local Time and if you sw= itch out of it, do your missing sessions appear? >=20 > Tom Also, I just favorited both core sessions from groups and then switched to s= chedule favorites. I see both sessions and selecting the agenda on each one s= hows the different agendas.=20 Tom= From nobody Mon Nov 16 08:24:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F593A126B for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:24:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cEPDewiKKKkU for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 625B33A1276 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CZZBh6dLXzydH; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:23:40 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <19C432DB-4869-418E-A085-EB03E1717CE0@bangj.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:23:40 +0100 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627236620.239729-1a257e1f49556881187eba3ce8526e8a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <28484220-2350-4746-975E-66AAB3F21957@bangj.com> <19C432DB-4869-418E-A085-EB03E1717CE0@bangj.com> To: Tom Pusateri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] IETFers tool shows CoRE agenda only for Tuesday X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:24:05 -0000 On 2020-11-16, at 15:02, Tom Pusateri = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 16, 2020, at 8:57 AM, Tom Pusateri wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFThere are separate agenda files for the Tue and Fri core = meeting =E2=80=94 it seems I can only get to the Tue agenda from the iOS = version of IETFers. >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >> Based on other reports, I have reproduced a time zone bug where = sessions are missing when in Local Time.=20 >>=20 >> Can you look at Settings and verify if you are in Local Time and if = you switch out of it, do your missing sessions appear? Hi Tom, thanks for the quick reply! I am in local time (CET), and both sessions do appear. So this one isn=E2=80=99t it. > Also, I just favorited both core sessions from groups and then = switched to schedule favorites. I see both sessions and selecting the = agenda on each one shows the different agendas.=20 Ah. This mental model didn=E2=80=99t occur to me. The views you access = when selecting the session seem to look identical otherwise (except for = the different sets of slides, which make sense); it didn=E2=80=99t occur = to me that the comefrom would control what you see under agenda. (So I = needed to find this out; beyond that it is also a bit clumsy to examine = whether something that isn=E2=80=99t on the Tue agenda was forgotten or = is on the Fri agenda. Clicking the Fri session shown in the view does = nothing. Also, the view doesn=E2=80=99t say which day it is for.) This is not a big problem then; I still think this could be solved such = that the two sessions of a WG are not as disconnected as they seem now. = (Next time.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Nov 16 20:30:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E6A3A0B7A for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uxo8aBW59Wep for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0310B3A0B60 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1474C389BB; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id GgaXMg0sILKp; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F36389BA; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FC2A76; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:29:50 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: dominique.barthel@orange.com cc: "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <9523_1605530762_5FB2748A_9523_142_1_DBD83317.7C38F%dominique.barthel@orange.com> References: <9523_1605530762_5FB2748A_9523_142_1_DBD83317.7C38F%dominique.barthel@orange.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho sound, stereo positioning X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 04:30:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wrote: > What would one ues It for? I attended two sessions in parallel this > morning, including both audios, essentially hopping between the two > sessions depending on the topic being discussed at a given time, while > keeping an ear open for the other session. > It would help my brain a lot being able to focus on one conversation > and temporarily ignore the other one if they were separated in space, > like they are in real life. No matter who is speaking, left is this > session, right is that one. I have the same use case. I have been using my audio mixer and the meetecho options to mute/unmute, b= ut having the speech split like that would be nice. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+zUb0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW0kggAtRlKXlSyS5L2HJjjzAGA2gv9zBaPqdZAJ7mPpL+QogLkq4bplMJURcul ag8czPmzmaRi/nEGV8P15ckpR+LCSTjJ6AKM0zLi+Ov71cHl16N2lNo+tim0DeMs ucKVIYuS5yBi+6mHOcU4QibFinAntgLgsjaY7k1tc9z0cik1ZYa1uFU+RNG9qADq O37XhYKWYU9j8IvhnuJMrJlHR1mzH5XeYeXAuLw5EgorVJmk9wKMqyHaPEwjYJI1 X56p7HZfOCQcvRnquhiyLVcpbspPlH0WR+GoBD95KZNyAUF4Cvi5rz5FLkvUTPjz TXnbP0Bqvdo6rY+EHhPnyjxlyddBtw== =40D0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 23:14:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358C83A1100 for ; 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boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:14:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain in meetecho's web interface, i notice that when i'm viewing the chat, i am not also viewing the participant list. But, if someone is sending audio only (without video), the only place i can see the identity of the speaker is in the participant list (looking for an active microphone, coupled with the pulsing green circle). I can view the chat and the video streams at the same time, all in the one web window; it seems like i ought to also be able to see at least who is sending audio as well, as the identity of the speaker is pretty critical context for some of the discussion (and not all IETFers are good about saying their name when they start speaking). thanks for considering this feature request/improvement for the web interface to meetecho! --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX7N4LQAKCRDEDyVUMvKB DxsiAP96oJP7xLkerdO0MJndIScpKqgaBauoqd9CuZJAnFY8zwEAvDz9AqHRTr7B G3+N4j5aVglxLyHvm+fM8EY4Z4imTwk= =f0Ya -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 23:55:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C4E3A11BE for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yze5le5DbWNf for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF2563A11BD for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id p1so22122382wrf.12 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=t0RLGFdE4u1Zkqzab81CmTofgf9vyufmR2haeoBW788=; b=BnQsSClmffcB3HQw3dIu32AJJ28hU0tcKHtVLtGv9oWLt+gEDdgq4EYurcYlr57s+o mKL2pM6RPcm9lek/4mTlmV1LezP3X+hbT2KO+l6+t+i+By1cDK3spS41xfndwIan3awm 4MjN0Z4qyuetDOB6/K+T57PLGLmN3yZ1UpNlquECTFKfXNwa7efUA2TP0RYilsJqtpJ/ 5giwXvd2s1vhp1ebQvBPUSfYEffvdQn14gS2l4OVwF0OlXE+r+XCXvoRfGHYEgcYD/EF IdQ5DwwQLZEHJEWizkPiX4D04WUiImviQgbZS2+AgiTMJ4k7gYqAwWp5F83URkJMsjwD alyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=t0RLGFdE4u1Zkqzab81CmTofgf9vyufmR2haeoBW788=; b=XPvmMRSsXizoJTq+eAOtlLRZvL1/527HO7KHbP2m/mg6XRK6zWA+DZ4YsBYIVxZrfv c55C1Gwhk+uJOK72kMk9OmSQHwzY2wTAu8Sgcon9+UzzdKsksSUQ5/iDmFzlimJWp7lU oviBzeslQDu6HJImZyLyouzXq+43WOywaDZ8fG3RYCh/KdDOQRDMmFHClBweIwEU7JE1 ssLbzrfquoVzIo8QS03EEYz6+KF3AQSzE8mJzAN6ETSWU/E3SBX8s+7AovJ9JZP2+/iX wUNWR5/87zuqQcZCX656Kpdt8xkvjZ0OngJGB2L8dhaO3oVTYnRAp6yXSISsVvZhkFjU vFHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+gbQmIkMyQP7ubU5a7b/NEhN0wI9F3iux2d4z6OFRiSa9i+BJ nS0fQIwjbsbj22+ls6z+exI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxz5U1/oizTufhix8AhmAUa5fxszXEzD2rWBrAgkTxVkJuZZZi7/WXbM6vTnQbSg/DqdjmXHQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a54d:: with SMTP id j13mr24663057wrb.132.1605599731321; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:7d43:9d46:d429:d92f? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:7d43:9d46:d429:d92f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h4sm25012592wrq.3.2020.11.16.23.55.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1F518000-BFA7-4882-9381-D8B431399492"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:55:27 -0800 In-Reply-To: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:55:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1F518000-BFA7-4882-9381-D8B431399492 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dan, In the chat, there is a button to move it to a separate window. I do = that, and move it so I can then go back to seeing the participant list. Bob > On Nov 16, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > in meetecho's web interface, i notice that when i'm viewing the chat, = i > am not also viewing the participant list. >=20 > But, if someone is sending audio only (without video), the only place = i > can see the identity of the speaker is in the participant list = (looking > for an active microphone, coupled with the pulsing green circle). >=20 > I can view the chat and the video streams at the same time, all in the > one web window; it seems like i ought to also be able to see at least > who is sending audio as well, as the identity of the speaker is pretty > critical context for some of the discussion (and not all IETFers are > good about saying their name when they start speaking). >=20 > thanks for considering this feature request/improvement for the web > interface to meetecho! >=20 > --dkg >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1F518000-BFA7-4882-9381-D8B431399492 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+zge8ACgkQrut0EXfn u6iIrAgAodg32jbJ8nxjt83ydZI6SXHv8alX0xh9ymRDufvHVh+IFlO9ZLiZtPfC i/N7kSuqm2mf+YqnfcAv7tSm2Qz5LOhYz6Xz4DjzqaF584s0STL1BFaj639bUHvS Oz3ehHGY1SOOKetYTk3mBKNSh2JGJU3+hJZV/PDq5JNs/CJagu+2LZ93Xzw3HSkv lZXwBYhb4yBTsYdVMR6fNx/UCHk/bZbGyuqjXz0HKJPkfwkp6TstCwtG6N+Y0FAe RVv6xoogNf/11v5XUhe8H1CVbHyfAHoDLgNMEptixLoQKADzJ3oEcjHI0uQVYOmS BK0k8ANCjU8C10psk92ZdulPoxJxpA== =gxyL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1F518000-BFA7-4882-9381-D8B431399492-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 00:11:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35763A0418 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fy0t4C8r266O for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 607F93A03FC for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:11:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87F8389BB; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id FtEMxoIcTBkj; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0520389BA; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48837FA; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:11:50 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:11:59 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can now detach the chat window, so you can see both the participants list. I just use pidgin. I would be happy to uncheck a box so that my name isn't in the jabber twice. Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > But, if someone is sending audio only (without video), the only place= i > can see the identity of the speaker is in the participant list (looki= ng > for an active microphone, coupled with the pulsing green circle). > I can view the chat and the video streams at the same time, all in the > one web window; it seems like i ought to also be able to see at least > who is sending audio as well, as the identity of the speaker is pretty > critical context for some of the discussion (and not all IETFers are > good about saying their name when they start speaking). I agree that better who is speaking would be nice without having to see the participants window. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+zhcYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXrHwf9GHq+XlfJYV3VBQbkcp5yzl8qJFqSXasXnGw6QgWAYlzit9p7kPKTObLl ceQBh7hAP/jn4JajOaduSPAxCN+pUW56D+Dmttst58BFpyKYEs800CpV2yxEyNET IdHJKbF17ZsVRokG7aTuK+RVIwQHrxKJ/zjQyQuNqJzbuAOGvAlU8mzqu2xC5hPx jFWnE3+h71Olbaw/k5whuh7l74iBDhtvoRX1Ue6VtnoRuNFj9sL8qldLItrbOlOw 9YcctxRt4Yi8VQbG4EoiX8XvbBH+3Orp1Ia03kvUAwKSzApm0Rp+frjs86q66xdB JJ9P/hfbRCYTYvAM6YlcAZRmEGzNEg== =ffiP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 02:47:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FD93A0F3A for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 02:47:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1iohVKVZHgD8 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 02:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE1153A0F0B for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 02:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1keyWC-0009mX-DA for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 05:47:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 05:47:19 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <37A0F48C92C9AE164C44697F@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho misfeatures and a problem they can't fix. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:47:27 -0000 Hi. I want to apologize in advance for the likely tone of this note. I'm tired, I just had to participate in a meeting that should have been cancelled, I have a paper for IGF that I need to revise before I present it in a few hours, and I'm generally in an impatient and foul mood. (1) Meetecho needs to be much more careful about assumptions about screen geometry. I'm sitting on front of two monitors, one 27 inch class, the other 24 inch class and with slightly different aspect ratios and, because of some eyesight issues (see below) they are operating at different magnification levels with the smaller monitor operating at higher magnification. When Meetecho is started in Chrome (which, for all I know, is part of the problem) on the smaller monitor, the frame pops up to "allow" me to test my equipment, the tests work fine, but then there is no way to dismiss that frame, making it impossible to actually join a session. The button to continue with the session is at the bottom of the frame and the bottom of the frame is offscreen. The frame cannot be scrolled, resized, or moved (either within the Meetecho window or elsewhere), so no button. Now, because of greater than 100% magnification (and that not working terribly well in Windows), Windows not dealing with screens with different properties and geometry exceptional well, and possibly browser issues (I have no way to know without a lot of testing that isn't going to happen this week), I admit that my environment is hostile to any "normal" assumptions about screen layouts and geometry. However, Meetecho ought to be more robust against such things, especially if neither it nor the IETF are going to have an eyesight quality requirement for participation. If that frame could be moved or resized (ideally both) there would be no problem. If it could be closed by the usual "X" icon in the upper right corner as well as the button at the bottom, no problem. But, as it is, unusable in that part of my environment (this works fine in Firefox on my bigger screen). (2) At IETF 108, there was considerable confusion (and wasted time) because it wasn't clear whether the chair giving someone the virtual floor unmuted video and/or audio. This time, whether I like the solution or not, the confusion is eliminated and people have to unmute themselves, audio and video separately. However, the buttons to do that are quite small, even on my large screens, and close to buttons that do other things. Moreover, it is still hard enough to tell whether one is muted or not and so muting when one intends to unmute was a common occurrence in the last WG I was in (not just me). This needs to stop. Those two icons (and the "place in queue" one, which has similar issues) need to be large enough that someone with mild to medium vision difficulties can find and interpret them. They need to clearly indicate (in non-subtle ways) whether video or audio are on or off. Ideally there should be a mechanism to turn both on and off together. And they need to be separated enough from other icons that someone using a touchscreen with fat fingers doesn't get the wrong one or more than one (not my issue, but an obvious one). (3) With the understanding that my vision is worse in the wee hours of my morning than during more normal working times, the combination of Meetecho's screen layout and presenter choices about how much information to put on a slide, type styles and sizes, etc., can easily make the content of slides unreadable (more easily for me than others, perhaps). The IETF's traditional solution to that problem has been to insist that slides be posted well in advance of meetings (days, not hours) so that those who might have problems seeing them onscreen can download them and make them available in other ways. That rule has apparently been abandoned. Neither Meetecho nor any other online meeting technology I can think of can solve those problems. But, if the IESG cannot be convinced to go back to enforcing the prior availability rule -- "no posted slides either no slides in the presentation or no presentation" and "no chair slides posted before the meeting, no meeting", maybe the tools team should be considering a semi-mandatory application to check slides for plausible visibility of text. Even if there were no other reasons for getting things posted well in advance, consider this a request to make reasonable accommodations for those of us who are somewhat to significantly vision-impaired. john From nobody Tue Nov 17 03:11:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7717C3A104D for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:11:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZgEtHrO6pu9 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpcmd02101.aruba.it (smtpcmd02101.aruba.it [62.149.158.101]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA3F3A104C for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.231] ([2.232.93.8]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id eytdkCIhyQyxqeytdkkzer; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:11:40 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1605611500; bh=Bf9Uz0xG28kz/ZnquPtGvihsChxPoJaosOLfxlPajac=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=NnoFZfCnoH1WgBWnLZZxWh8O96W8rVkvMMCQg6LQMUOGTCGcgFsdoRBF3iOuTHyh4 LESeRi+ogCV8YiROn+OsVzYzfJfedCbWg8v5D5d2DkFia7oLKGH5BgbMwgGi+AEJWa xdvRW0iLS1v6S0uvJjrqp/dkA9si3vObMIfVRJw8Br3qHe+HzX6tMtktygzhP+LbZN SvtHcjzUlsnYKRCbffYNrTgW/iwuihx10BRRt3+/A/VX7nH+V8Nf3cSrXkU+mJm3ed JLdMjio9k0AWaUKGTXmONSWgc+K6oS0P2Q9m+SWz+i1Blfiv212oA0UcZD22MfwX3z N2ZC5kESWm/FA== To: John C Klensin References: <37A0F48C92C9AE164C44697F@PSB> From: Meetecho IETF support Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <4859960f-6d3f-9d28-5999-8e13df07c76f@meetecho.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:11:37 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/68.0 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37A0F48C92C9AE164C44697F@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEfd1fqbuzZ88zjCODCoUwisp+qZpDgLCqHp6qgkSCNtUcW32Zoqi/kQZV5qNbHeBx6q6hKBq03BEOrF3A8Q6Z1lezF3OJ82LQGbFKSCQkx7b1ctL9e6 eTBT5Tz+eHTYheS/oJARqsbfaSVabvlo2/p2aYDO7TL6zgEOJeg2r/RzDBhWi3E1sT0kQNyE4laOsQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho misfeatures and a problem they can't fix. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 11:11:44 -0000 Hi John, Il 17/11/20 11:47, John C Klensin ha scritto: > Hi. > > I want to apologize in advance for the likely tone of this note. > I'm tired, I just had to participate in a meeting that should > have been cancelled, I have a paper for IGF that I need to > revise before I present it in a few hours, and I'm generally in > an impatient and foul mood. > > (1) Meetecho needs to be much more careful about assumptions > about screen geometry. I'm sitting on front of two monitors, > one 27 inch class, the other 24 inch class and with slightly > different aspect ratios and, because of some eyesight issues > (see below) they are operating at different magnification levels > with the smaller monitor operating at higher magnification. > When Meetecho is started in Chrome (which, for all I know, is > part of the problem) on the smaller monitor, the frame pops up > to "allow" me to test my equipment, the tests work fine, but > then there is no way to dismiss that frame, making it impossible > to actually join a session. The button to continue with the > session is at the bottom of the frame and the bottom of the > frame is offscreen. The frame cannot be scrolled, resized, or > moved (either within the Meetecho window or elsewhere), so no > button. Actually that frame should be scrollable. The weird thing might be that the scroll bar appears on the right hand side of the page rather than of the frame itself, so it's probably easy to miss. Will fix that. > Now, because of greater than 100% magnification (and that not > working terribly well in Windows), Windows not dealing with > screens with different properties and geometry exceptional well, > and possibly browser issues (I have no way to know without a > lot of testing that isn't going to happen this week), I admit > that my environment is hostile to any "normal" assumptions about > screen layouts and geometry. However, Meetecho ought to be more > robust against such things, especially if neither it nor the > IETF are going to have an eyesight quality requirement for > participation. If that frame could be moved or resized (ideally > both) there would be no problem. If it could be closed by the > usual "X" icon in the upper right corner as well as the button > at the bottom, no problem. But, as it is, unusable in that part > of my environment (this works fine in Firefox on my bigger > screen). Adding the possibility to close it via the usual "X" button is trivial. Noted. > (2) At IETF 108, there was considerable confusion (and wasted > time) because it wasn't clear whether the chair giving someone > the virtual floor unmuted video and/or audio. This time, > whether I like the solution or not, the confusion is eliminated > and people have to unmute themselves, audio and video > separately. However, the buttons to do that are quite small, > even on my large screens, and close to buttons that do other > things. Moreover, it is still hard enough to tell whether one > is muted or not and so muting when one intends to unmute was a > common occurrence in the last WG I was in (not just me). This > needs to stop. Those two icons (and the "place in queue" one, > which has similar issues) need to be large enough that someone > with mild to medium vision difficulties can find and interpret > them. They need to clearly indicate (in non-subtle ways) > whether video or audio are on or off. Ideally there should be a > mechanism to turn both on and off together. And they need to be > separated enough from other icons that someone using a > touchscreen with fat fingers doesn't get the wrong one or more > than one (not my issue, but an obvious one). Again, thanks for the feedback. We'll take all this into account for the next release. Best, Alessandro > (3) With the understanding that my vision is worse in the wee > hours of my morning than during more normal working times, the > combination of Meetecho's screen layout and presenter choices > about how much information to put on a slide, type styles and > sizes, etc., can easily make the content of slides unreadable > (more easily for me than others, perhaps). The IETF's > traditional solution to that problem has been to insist that > slides be posted well in advance of meetings (days, not hours) > so that those who might have problems seeing them onscreen can > download them and make them available in other ways. That rule > has apparently been abandoned. Neither Meetecho nor any other > online meeting technology I can think of can solve those > problems. But, if the IESG cannot be convinced to go back to > enforcing the prior availability rule -- "no posted slides > either no slides in the presentation or no presentation" and "no > chair slides posted before the meeting, no meeting", maybe the > tools team should be considering a semi-mandatory application to > check slides for plausible visibility of text. Even if there > were no other reasons for getting things posted well in advance, > consider this a request to make reasonable accommodations for > those of us who are somewhat to significantly vision-impaired. > > john > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Tue Nov 17 06:11:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B23A134C for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:11:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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CAT:NONE; SFS:(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(396003)(136003)(46966005)(83380400001)(70206006)(26005)(47076004)(6916009)(31686004)(8936002)(82740400003)(7596003)(356005)(186003)(8676002)(36906005)(786003)(75432002)(316002)(5660300002)(3480700007)(70586007)(478600001)(2906002)(82310400003)(86362001)(336012)(956004)(2616005)(31696002)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Nov 2020 14:11:30.1446 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 810ad521-af2c-4f18-ca4f-08d88b02af2c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CY1NAM02FT033.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR12MB3547 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho Chair Testing sessions X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:11:35 -0000 I'm very happy we have these test sessions. My cochair and I just did an initial practice before our session and worked out some issues. However, the setup is incomplete so there were things we would have liked to test but couldn't: 1) There are no meeting materials, so we couldn't explore using them. Ideally we would be able to use those from our own WG, but a synthetic set for the test session would probably be sufficient. 2) There are no participants, so we couldn't practice controlling participants. (Actually we ourselves were initially participants rather than chairs because login used our datatracker credentials by default. We eventually figured out we had to leave the session and request to not do automatic login in order to get in with the token and be chair.) So apparently, to practice with real participants we would have to get some people who are registered for the meeting, and have them log in. Aside from ourselves we didn't have anybody handy to perform that role. At the least it would be good to point that out in the instructions. (Even I had known, I don't know where I would have found people to fill the role.) 3) My cochair (Brian Rosen) was never able to get his image to show up. He was able to request it, and Meetecho seemed to think he was sending video (I saw the video icon next to his name, and could enable/disable it.) But he never showed up. Presumably this was something at his end rather than Meetecho itself, but it wasn't clear what. He is running MacOs Catalina. Is there a place with hints on how to resolve issues like this? Thanks, Paul From nobody Tue Nov 17 06:48:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDDF3A13A3 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V1obNAoxBm6n for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [98.153.82.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33E533A13DF for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01RS3XDF9CU800BSD0@mauve.mrochek.com> for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:44:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1605624271; bh=+t7so/cdejFeQFutVUZrRFkM3nfpOqpnJfVevw2bhl4=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:To:From; b=fogbsPzBdbVCi85a9/oluX14/w7JrX2iDdeesDaV4cDa57ZvVXyh9VvHHWHkTGG/W tI7klcS+V+GoDy7ZUqpjo/jGQk9j2iozTOwVu0DKht7OmCtJtbQUr7xy8hb6F3hXwf QaWG7IyoAhvFcFnnR5a3GYhA3aanr6qibwLdTPMQ= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pDwMpYGjSXEnMMthBJDcJj)" Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01RS3WN35LXC005PTU@mauve.mrochek.com> for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:44:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: ned.freed@mrochek.com Message-id: <01RS3XDD6TJS005PTU@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 06:42:26 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho issues during the emailcore meeting X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:48:45 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_pDwMpYGjSXEnMMthBJDcJj) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As suggested by Pete Resnick, I am forwarding the message I sent to the emailcore list last night to the tools-discuss list. Please note that I am not a member of this list, and have no interest in joining. Ned --Boundary_(ID_pDwMpYGjSXEnMMthBJDcJj) Content-type: message/rfc822 Return-path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1605604660; bh=w0Az4VQMkmku8S5750iLKQBF5riR/vozl8X0OtquMYE=; h=Date:From:In-reply-to:References:To:Subject:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe; b=Yhk0ktkab2VEbFyvLZTAWbNvsSoidASsHKRG9dXISfeK5FF5Vz0gbNR18pvcntQFX HjEnkn/jbVPZn7xtiT0900p3+xaxXw6Sd/7cnPV0gDcD9qFRq2A93vHEo5tePooAJq DfhrzjH2I07/BUQWzZhawNtPjU1vOWHc2HJfO+ok= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1605604657; bh=w0Az4VQMkmku8S5750iLKQBF5riR/vozl8X0OtquMYE=; h=Date:From:In-reply-to:References:To:Subject:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe; b=BGlBLrmklnoZy9nrhSpcoyRWrO0h3jsosQzYbYyo9GC7QWdTAxLRjprQJ8+xfVaG6 vfhE0S6Rcir7wk8pCukbuLcDSlSY5j78wlBQ/8CO8dUj3vGQs4nRUBqd1tHVaatCJq R/j6pTny3zSzL+ZZ+L/S/VKDc5PIkLJZHzO5zQss= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1605604349; bh=5ZmewHNxF92Kp7SbFjF22qTUkQFyNlhXKLF+Cp56fso=; h=Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=GSlWp2rcTS/AkUJpzB3Sp+wGUk/UXfLplL+O+tbLJVqogDio62mTtNSOmd9PsUKx3 inqC6GoXcQJPpyRMkuDceSkzhkKMB1sASIMVfGdpKRJ+v9pk9x2MswoUO1lySoOQBJ iOvEfGa2MstjXH9CeraXqNDd7Bn0h+MRkXT+ZlEA= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:38:56 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed Subject: Re: [Emailcore] Obnoxious, 11th hour, appeal of the decision to hold an emailcore meeting In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:03:39 -0500" Sender: Emailcore To: emailcore@ietf.org, ART ADs Errors-to: emailcore-bounces@ietf.org Message-id: <01RS3LRPSITQ005PTU@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: list X-BeenThere: emailcore@ietf.org Delivered-to: emailcore@ietfa.amsl.com X-Mailbox-Line: From emailcore-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 17 01:17:38 2020 References: X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Authentication-results: mauve.mrochek.com; dkim=pass reason="1024-bit key; unprotected key" header.d=ietf.org header.i=@ietf.org header.b=Yhk0ktka; dkim-adsp=none (unprotected policy); dkim-atps=neutral Authentication-results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Archived-at: List-Help: List-Id: EMAILCORE proposed working group list Original-recipient: rfc822;ned+emailcore@mrochek.com X-Original-To: emailcore@ietfa.amsl.com And noe for a 13th hour comment. These days I spend a significant fraction of my time engaged in online meetings, mostly using Zoom, occasionally some more specialized thing. The number of times I have any sort of issue joining meetings and participting is incredibly tiny. It doesn't matter what brower, app, or device I choose to use. It just works. It works when I use my laptop, tablet, or my phone. It works when I use the builtin mic, a headset, or a speakerphone. it works when I dial in. It works when I use a builtin camera or an external one. Or switch between the two. It works when I join more than one meeting. It works when I join a meeting outside its scheduled time slot. And no doubt it's tolerating numerous other sins I'm unaware I'm commiting. To the extent there are problems, it's invariably either a network issue or a PIBKAC. I can count the number of serious software bugs I've encountered in the time of Covid-19 on the fingers of no hands. And then we come to the IETF. And Meetecho. I'm going to skip the obligatory, "How much hard work has gone into it and how wonderful all the support has been, etc." lines because I'm frankly not in the mood. Today's emailcore meeting was par for the course. Odd popup window on logging in - not clear what that was about. Some warning about audio issues that vanished before I could even read it. And then no ability to speak myself - and no indication of why. Reseting the audio - an option no other app seems to need - provided no satisfaction, unless pressing buttons that do nothing counts as satisfying. I was resigned to using chat to communicate until we reached a point in the meeting where nothing but high bandwidth would really do. In desperation I decided to try a different browser. I disonnected - I know better than to join the same meeting twice using different tools - and tried to reconnect. Except the meeting had run over time, and I wasn't allowed in. Folks, I'm not kidding when I say that the local folk music center consistently does a better job, and a less technically savvy group is hard for me to imagine. The IETF needs to get its shit together. It's embarassing. Ned -- Emailcore mailing list Emailcore@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emailcore --Boundary_(ID_pDwMpYGjSXEnMMthBJDcJj)-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 09:50:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33ED3A15AB for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a-JeskuFIxEP for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E8973A12EC for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id j7so24065703wrp.3 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:cc:to:message-id; bh=6DogskJ7oniTngPUT68FUk1pNrrOCCwsvCXPSnzY61c=; b=ROde2smcY9SeQJ8tMtwvoI7SXCAVAv0SbuqdK8YkWFpszyL9qnIXWJXrrLwDEmYgl0 ROjHP8sU9abAwtDmRCFC2Y6kCcCHbWQIyQLFaj9b7b7X40Mb4d51/xOq05Ky4h19nI9U EURlryLGOp8Ojv3qLSvOkukYkiX+4v8WXelWrKseyHEjj8zGiPGlvhyQ9rMB8lLsqvEN p/NiQq1XKkgis4DF+xIweaxEgUxACHOAptOOFD95de9RktuKvdN7ytWDlAUAhX2rWXYa VxpI1WFg4MVSd+cRd7nrvP3ss5e2+ueq96Pmo7Ul7RRxTUoaZZ73hT4A7VBA9GyG5Ent dGHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:cc:to :message-id; bh=6DogskJ7oniTngPUT68FUk1pNrrOCCwsvCXPSnzY61c=; b=Jnjc9QqXjP1+UfENPacuSNWcAv71aqqsIoa73wMpROvSrbL+5UIWB+XYHbHDLd7PLo ULzXi6JQ03jom5W0NDbcJ1m52HzxMDskPmTf7oLmwUnatcbONpBf2e1cMBUIWGPyJsBB dXF+tS5Pv9jpZronXSpuJW+Sf1OhjjKOnRZCSZGsj/n8mkhNuQNrYURHe4lBqBG6x3Py BPyfQl9xRocikkdePDqiy5ps/YJ1lX+aW4VsdJz06uV7g5v7G/WwlH7YvgoRbi6nEJBI insy007u4GSS3DZG2UBtZrWuEOzWe5Vu9oD8OqLUwjkLNLzmBss0Hdq4fZ/+ovKj73c2 RaqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336Ws3Rt9nxX6YUVmGVmChEn9ZZIh3Ncapnf2pGJ7UEaopIqMng mlaDzJMEfgJneO0vjtnTlmEG062CqnE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzi8EgbMEw6IENgZwl7wyfZ/WvfFcQeFp9PTdmdTacTpNAOdbVZTGGgyooBRTwth68dRdRBew== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:69d1:: with SMTP id s17mr749697wrw.104.1605635440731; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:401a:99bb:28f0:d581? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:401a:99bb:28f0:d581]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u203sm4782096wme.32.2020.11.17.09.50.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:40 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67B71837-7CFB-47CC-A9B5-FD57880C580B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:50:38 -0800 References: To: Tools Team Discussion Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Reminder, Need your slides for 6man tomorrow - draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00 presentation X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:50:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67B71837-7CFB-47CC-A9B5-FD57880C580B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C724CE82-D890-4CA6-B7C6-949E76AF0BEA" --Apple-Mail=_C724CE82-D890-4CA6-B7C6-949E76AF0BEA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Note the suggestion that the error messages when someone tries to join a = session before it is open could be clearer. Bob > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Dusan Mudric > Subject: Re: Reminder, Need your slides for 6man tomorrow - = draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00 presentation > Date: November 17, 2020 at 7:18:47 AM PST > To: Bob Hinden > Cc: Vasilenko Eduard , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" = , Ole Tr=C3=B8an , Alexandre = Petrescu >=20 > The application is great but that Unauthorized message was misleading = and took me good 20min and your response to figure out why I was not = able to login. May be somebody can report this so the application = returns a meaningful message, like wait for the host to open a session. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Dusan. >=20 >=20 > On 11/16/2020 10:44 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >> It doesn=E2=80=99t start for another hour, you will be able to log = in 10 minutes before. >>=20 >> Bob >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Dusan Mudric = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I cannot login. Who can help me with the access? If I cannot login, = Alex, please present the slides. >>>=20 >>> I loged in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/agenda >>>=20 >>> >>>=20 >>> =46rom here, if I select the camera icon for 6man group, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> 12:00-14:00 Tuesday Session I >>>=20 >>> Room 1 art core Constrained RESTful Environments >>>=20 >>> Room 2 int 6man IPv6 Maintenance >>> I am redirected to "Login via datatracker" and there is an error and = Unauthorized >>>=20 >>> >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/109/agenda/agenda-109-6man-00 >>>=20 >>> Jabber Room: 6man@jabber.ietf.org >>>=20 >>> Meetecho: >>> =E2=80=A2 Tuesday Session, = https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf109/?group=3D6man&short=3D&item=3D1= >>>=20 >>> Login via Datatracker fails, stating the access is Unauthorized. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>>=20 >>> Dusan. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 11/15/2020 10:42 AM, Dusan Mudric wrote: >>>> Hi Bob, >>>>=20 >>>> Here is the presentation for draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>>=20 >>>> Dusan. >>>>=20 >>>> On 11/14/2020 2:34 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>>>> We need your slides for your 6man session by Tomorrow. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Bob >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 --Apple-Mail=_C724CE82-D890-4CA6-B7C6-949E76AF0BEA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Note = the suggestion that the error messages when someone tries to join a = session before it is open could be clearer.

Bob


Begin forwarded message:

From: = Dusan Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com>
Subject: = Re: Reminder, = Need your slides for 6man tomorrow - draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00 = presentation
Date: November 17, 2020 at 7:18:47 AM PST
To: = Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Cc: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>, "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, Ole Tr=C3=B8an <otroan@employees.org>, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>

The= application is great but that Unauthorized message was misleading and = took me good 20min and your response to figure out why I was not able to = login. May be somebody can report this so the application returns a = meaningful message, like wait for the host to open a session.

Thanks,

Dusan.


On 11/16/2020 10:44 PM, Bob = Hinden wrote:
It = doesn=E2=80=99t start for another hour,  you will be able to log in = 10 minutes before.

Bob


On Nov = 16, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Dusan Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com> wrote:

I cannot login.  Who can help me with the access? If I = cannot login, Alex, please present the slides.

I loged in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/agenda

<namnpffghaoommpd.png>

=46rom here, if I select the camera icon for 6man group,


12:00-14:00 Tuesday = Session I

Room 1 art core = Constrained RESTful Environments

Room = 2 = int = 6man = IPv6 Maintenance
I am redirected to "Login via = datatracker" and there is an error and Unauthorized

<kgbjegklccobeemc.png>


https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/109/agenda/agenda-109-6man-00<= /a>

Jabber Room: 6man@jabber.ietf.org

Meetecho:
=E2=80=A2 = Tuesday Session, = https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf109/?group=3D6man&short=3D&= item=3D1

Login via Datatracker fails, = stating the access is Unauthorized.


Thanks,

Dusan.


On 11/15/2020 10:42 AM, Dusan Mudric wrote:
Hi Bob,

Here is the presentation for draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00.

Regards,

Dusan.

On 11/14/2020 2:34 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
We need your slides for = your 6man session by Tomorrow.

Bob



= --Apple-Mail=_C724CE82-D890-4CA6-B7C6-949E76AF0BEA-- --Apple-Mail=_67B71837-7CFB-47CC-A9B5-FD57880C580B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+0DW4ACgkQrut0EXfn u6i8LAgAmQIKmCxMz375j6taxQ82/jtDGCn4dgHhLnd5d2faByr/zaqYGngFeT5y GUKTP+xa+iqfc4sGCDEM67DZq7Z6nRGT9crN2P9AVdqRbYI81rPDV3/cF03JSEc6 I9ochppwTfINoMSBcRuPf0nKLzV4AaUZKMx7+6dc0XbmCULnUIVznxaEBlf2WqTw F4Byhnl/YMWHqzE019cP0CocgIFJ4VC+z4EZATwImmzSJZDFFYw2WnXZGzA3tfEF yxs2qqdPDQuhPhRJHoTKE2kAbLR6FaZ26l621cwCf5Aga8wMiApP7QyFMsIWY6Jk H9C2w1ht5wlbwIE1v2XEUXG5jw6N1g== =N111 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_67B71837-7CFB-47CC-A9B5-FD57880C580B-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 10:08:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228003A14FE for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:08:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id seyaTf394QQ8 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpcmd02102.aruba.it (smtpcmd02102.aruba.it [62.149.158.102]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16A23A14EF for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.231] ([2.232.93.8]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id f5OtkGdjlQyxqf5Otkp5S3; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 19:08:21 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1605636501; bh=F10MVp7noWcoglDKyNJF0D1xPjuw+g4xqB3ZuI4zW6U=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cZGHaUJpHqWmbv58BvN6Kyq4wHeUqoxwkaOFzBNLC5i8CSs/hZ1SsfavcEHzLk79+ kzf1uc+LLK+8QPwZkVTY/tGeJZpC1cP6KkiXhx6GqAlBBQOnXqqEGIUcXOlwPUpqmC HycEu4ggSnD5yHUf/CqTHpdsaQRdTPziQvZvuEn90cps7jm/uDBSfxPBr9cgLYSOP/ chIJFSmXDqolqJUymoItsHkzAT2+em9QQR2VsvGUoduVHXVMFH0RG0F8b5PX63bZSc FyPrEpOrhS88buCeXeH1eP/TyLmrlU7y/sTgrr4CJdYc92GQWqH6hpGuNq26GhdtNt ZHb7nDk3R5wVQ== To: Bob Hinden References: Cc: Tools Team Discussion , dusan.mudric@gmail.com From: Meetecho IETF support Message-ID: <889e463b-f4de-c5fc-6ea5-3c7ba2304504@meetecho.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 19:08:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/68.0 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfOzUMFOgqKRxe4Ys6b09+xD7bAvBlj7O0UjdndgGsuFbhSXFfdRRWu0VV9KQfOxcZiWwqBez8fqB3FC+KOAvVBIpIaUAXIWkxZFqoo6QuEJ73YQ/jLGN jmqvxMKB5wEmviVe3dZoYf2lWo9DSTUZ+K3dfuEAbXbrX8FvP4e61NhtBAYKpwupLqaDHiANekLq4MjiVNQzaCMzpPunNzGISjEVCx3ccc2oFcKIpSVOuHoU Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Reminder, Need your slides for 6man tomorrow - draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00 presentation X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:08:26 -0000 You can join any session way earlier than the scheduled start time. There is no "host" that has to open a session. The error Dusan was getting was related to a different issue on the Datatracker side, namely he was trying to login with a different email than the one he used to register to the meeting. As such, he was indeed "unauthorized". When we notice this kind of errors, we notify Henrik & the Datatracker team that in turn check whether there's a duplicate entry for the reason above and fix the records. That's when Dusan managed to login. Best, Alessandro Il 17/11/20 18:50, Bob Hinden ha scritto: > Note the suggestion that the error messages when someone tries to join a > session before it is open could be clearer. > > Bob > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *Dusan Mudric > > >> *Subject: **Re: Reminder, Need your slides for 6man tomorrow - >> draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00 presentation* >> *Date: *November 17, 2020 at 7:18:47 AM PST >> *To: *Bob Hinden > >> *Cc: *Vasilenko Eduard > >, "Dongjie (Jimmy)" >> >, Ole Trøan >> >, Alexandre >> Petrescu > > >> >> The application is great but that Unauthorized message was misleading >> and took me good 20min and your response to figure out why I was not >> able to login. May be somebody can report this so the application >> returns a meaningful message, like wait for the host to open a session. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dusan. >> >> >> On 11/16/2020 10:44 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>> It doesn’t start for another hour,  you will be able to log in 10 >>> minutes before. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Dusan Mudric >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I cannot login.  Who can help me with the access? If I cannot login, >>>> Alex, please present the slides. >>>> >>>> I loged in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/agenda >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From here, if I select the camera icon for 6man group, >>>> >>>> >>>> 12:00-14:00Tuesday Session I >>>> >>>> Room 1artcoreConstrained RESTful Environments >>>> >>>> Room 2int6manIPv6 Maintenance >>>> I am redirected to "Login via datatracker" and there is an error and >>>> Unauthorized >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/109/agenda/agenda-109-6man-00 >>>> >>>> Jabber Room: 6man@jabber.ietf.org >>>> >>>> Meetecho: >>>> • Tuesday Session, >>>> https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf109/?group=6man&short=&item=1 >>>> >>>> Login via Datatracker fails, stating the access is Unauthorized. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Dusan. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/15/2020 10:42 AM, Dusan Mudric wrote: >>>>> Hi Bob, >>>>> >>>>> Here is the presentation for draft-mudric-6man-lcs-00. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Dusan. >>>>> >>>>> On 11/14/2020 2:34 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>>>>> We need your slides for your 6man session by Tomorrow. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Tue Nov 17 17:52:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6313A1256 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:52:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRJ7XRX1RhCk for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9F9F3A1255 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kfCeO-000FBW-Gx; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:52:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:52:42 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Meetecho IETF support cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <3C246CD4493F06F6D1C5DE34@PSB> In-Reply-To: <4859960f-6d3f-9d28-5999-8e13df07c76f@meetecho.com> References: <37A0F48C92C9AE164C44697F@PSB> <4859960f-6d3f-9d28-5999-8e13df07c76f@meetecho.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Meetecho misfeatures and a problem they can't fix. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:52:51 -0000 Alessandro, Thanks for the quick reply and apologies that today has been sufficiently intense that I just saw your note. A comment or two inline below... --On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 12:11 +0100 Meetecho IETF support wrote: > Hi John, > > Il 17/11/20 11:47, John C Klensin ha scritto: >... >> (1) Meetecho needs to be much more careful about assumptions >> about screen geometry. I'm sitting on front of two monitors, >> one 27 inch class, the other 24 inch class and with slightly >> different aspect ratios and, because of some eyesight issues >> (see below) they are operating at different magnification >> levels with the smaller monitor operating at higher >> magnification. When Meetecho is started in Chrome (which, for >> all I know, is part of the problem) on the smaller monitor, >> the frame pops up to "allow" me to test my equipment, the >> tests work fine, but then there is no way to dismiss that >> frame, making it impossible to actually join a session. The >> button to continue with the session is at the bottom of the >> frame and the bottom of the frame is offscreen. The frame >> cannot be scrolled, resized, or moved (either within the >> Meetecho window or elsewhere), so no button. > > Actually that frame should be scrollable. The weird thing > might be that the scroll bar appears on the right hand side of > the page rather than of the frame itself, so it's probably > easy to miss. Will fix that. While I think the scroll bar belongs on the frame for the reason you give, I did look to the right side of the page and try to get some scrolling action there and was unsuccessful. I don't know how the underlying APIs have changed since I was last paying attention, but the magnification might also be to blame: if the operating system is lying to you or Chrome about what is already on screen but that is different from what I see, you could easily not be putting up a scroll bar because you think your page is full-screen while I'm only seeing part of it. If that is even part of the problem, I don't have any bright ideas about cures other than allowing the frame to be closed from the top as well as the bottom as you have indicated is easy. In a way, that is a kludge but, if it does the job, I don't think anyone will complain. Incidentally, I am guessing that part of Ned Freed's problem may have been related to that frame as well. I obviously don't know what happened but, if something caused him to see it as having closed prematurely but Meetecho was still waiting for it to close in an orderly way, I'm guessing that could easily cause Meetecho, the browser, or the operating system to be trying to use a microphone that was different from the one he was trying to use or some similar disconnect. Good luck tracking it down and reproducing it in any event. >... >> (2) At IETF 108, there was considerable confusion (and wasted >> time) because it wasn't clear whether the chair giving someone >> the virtual floor unmuted video and/or audio. This time, >> whether I like the solution or not, the confusion is >> eliminated and people have to unmute themselves, audio and >> video separately. However, the buttons to do that are quite >> small, even on my large screens, and close to buttons that do >> other things. Moreover, it is still hard enough to tell >> whether one is muted or not and so muting when one intends to >> unmute was a common occurrence in the last WG I was in (not >> just me). This needs to stop. Those two icons (and the >> "place in queue" one, which has similar issues) need to be >> large enough that someone with mild to medium vision >> difficulties can find and interpret them. They need to >> clearly indicate (in non-subtle ways) whether video or audio >> are on or off. Ideally there should be a mechanism to turn >> both on and off together. And they need to be separated >> enough from other icons that someone using a touchscreen with >> fat fingers doesn't get the wrong one or more than one (not >> my issue, but an obvious one). > > Again, thanks for the feedback. We'll take all this into > account for the next release. Good. Best regards and keep up the good work. john From nobody Tue Nov 17 21:36:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194243A145C for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:36:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lHQlGjnG0V61 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12on2063.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.244.63]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C3AA3A14A4 for ; 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Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:33:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LIZYWLba0qzK for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from quackerjack.boerde.de (quackerjack.boerde.de [151.252.51.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC4763A16ED for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:33:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:32:59 +0100 From: Georg Lukas To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201118093259.3mbppxdn23l3oj2h@op-co.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="j4fcafl7ie3h26e5" Content-Disposition: inline X-Message-Flag: Diese E-Mail stammt aus kontrolliert biologischem Anbau Organization: Path-E-Tech Management X-Accepted-Language: de,en,ru User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Up-to-date ebook renderings / https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/ X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:33:14 -0000 --j4fcafl7ie3h26e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, it looks like the RFC ebook renderings hosted on https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/ haven't been updated in the last year. According to the tools page, the list is weekly generated, so apparently something broke in November 2019. Also it looks like the renderer used there doesn't make use of XML sources (where available) and mis-renders some lists, tables and text paragraphs. Is there any other generator / repository of IETF documents rendered as ebooks? It would be great to have up-to-date builds of the RFCs and I-Ds suitable for e-ink devices, so ideally in .mobi and .epub formats, and directly based on XML sources where possible. Kind regards, Georg --j4fcafl7ie3h26e5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EABECAB0WIQTOVzSLalN7WGrfmR2zNNMIli/S3gUCX7TqSQAKCRCzNNMIli/S 3smEAKDnO3pFWX2TBXNo2xfcPOa087UWTgCg3hGZgRT3KNnHgcas8hlVdpczhec= =k8IX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --j4fcafl7ie3h26e5-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 02:04:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F3F3A176B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:04:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qWb89InwJui for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C21A3A175A for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:04:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1605693866; bh=TWDYqfWcc5DSs48mh8zsb0sc/kQeIbUeX8j1EY9Nek0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=FdIPuFBkMlvm3pgSY1Zx0jTqVIMXfCnlVzu+L8/wu2G6JxGSETQYi6riuKlj+hN/y 79qbiIQrw43lYbDUOCnoiV37dgooQxyzdEBCT+LkPdo2slVR6fVC/nUVbrrX5SAyz3 K87SnIUvnQKs2IaVt3NwU5P4wAcuuF5yE8Na3OgM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mg6Zw-1k3Et22FtW-00hdQC for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:04:26 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20201118093259.3mbppxdn23l3oj2h@op-co.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <1ff41e02-b355-172e-9a06-65134d552a65@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:04:26 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201118093259.3mbppxdn23l3oj2h@op-co.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WyCBu8UHoB8bxbOrlRQyN/uOFtGwea0DChvsl00HXVgvUvL5g9C E/iFwlP0dpZUdY6OyhZx6yyTXq67mBcBootuTTGiTvWpQvlz8sm3a+zwVQmo9v1rMWfRO4c HjMgz+Qv7EmKo4xiZIr2qVc7qlaKPCszUntsFzf1Wze+0dVVlyRoGYAYmx6lDF4Imf1PdhE D9cYVgQKL23OQa1xpEeGg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:TTBEzqJXCs4=:u8q+SLERxp3HSK4rZ43nUD FOtaonkCg0UWogOsNEItOF2XOC++6ojxcgKsOk+NpBAiTj8Bo2PQpxUd1ntnNkRRTdKzY/eKu vfwkHplbwZ/MQF9CodI0eGM4m8EQ6HhJVoA9GSdOxZr7xU/kOQ7WVq9fj3VLAjM5KfQ4GFm/j RqtuSVSl35aWQ9YT87rbwXXJlGPZv9hXRqrJUM3EYi7epvNGoooOEQxzibUhX/pWHlto35OSq yR8OYFPqYLP4f/aYjBsx37LWGxSN0ikWBVCWC3fuXB754BWcYrCQ8fpg8W0H8MkUrjYIyMQtm bbNPQpT2YHAzCfZgFS7tmUq9E7iPaLrBRHZNOBmrSzczYP+RpEHhAWv32uAcCxzINJ83+gWB0 iayiaU+JvmGfNOyKJtnUAyi49T1Nd4RAHkv5CrvH7TkwkSnLdr49N6rZJyqahbYWnYEwAz3iL 34RTs4/gWfiEJOSfxVTYBGrk+/h+dxEhJCZ4XjUWrnLHnB+OIVi2aYuRkXQ7nDPylZyWwphl4 IsjAoUTVRRKoZ9sIXiXwOOp7at4dUWuPqb9CmbrxyKejTsC/1D/PDCkQA6ewy2Ow2ArR7roSD mIdVArlHxOd4wIOhS2gdmdqDTIc4M+8rg8JwUOpqdHrb0BBqhRiKhgafRbMj234iLrkZndDeZ 8gbY5ONhdHayhEUFJUI3IGYT3JaBoFzqwaWf2AJs7p0zIRU//R3Qe1FTWVzV2wQ5Ywfm/VL/e mUwp7YqQ/cEso1UPkDxzHP/OLyMvn6DX/GqgNxdsFAqd4up+vPo2e6+n7mX7uM7P0vgJAlDS5 jCgt5oFcktHLMVujELV0Jp1AQEAHskQKRQAa9mjs0FvbT/rgmM89gUAYtlsH7uDuoGPs3qctq AVhSo5SmQwHhiJukwmQg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Up-to-date ebook renderings / https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/ X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:04:39 -0000 Am 18.11.2020 um 10:32 schrieb Georg Lukas: > Hello, > > it looks like the RFC ebook renderings hosted on > https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/ haven't been updated in the last year. > According to the tools page, the list is weekly generated, so apparently > something broke in November 2019. > > Also it looks like the renderer used there doesn't make use of XML sourc= es > (where available) and mis-renders some lists, tables and text paragraphs= . > > Is there any other generator / repository of IETF documents rendered as > ebooks? > > It would be great to have up-to-date builds of the RFCs and I-Ds > suitable for e-ink devices, so ideally in .mobi and .epub formats, and > directly based on XML sources where possible. > > > Kind regards, > > Georg I have an script/XSLT combination if you want to run things locally, see . Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Nov 18 03:42:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5612B3A122F for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.306 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.306 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=tu8MbT/K; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=1LTAv3bH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKFDyGf5IZW5 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (unknown [162.247.75.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 277D83A1020 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:42:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019; t=1605699720; h=from : to : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=girTo2uQ/zfSnwdP4VHmiEape7fEAFi0lGgsg+AcTYE=; b=tu8MbT/KjXAr6/5skIcYY+HHuIbOzh0w0DAroI2qJZ+kMgkSzSv+SuS1q1FIHaiJG2Tef z84rPtvMnmalsvHDA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019rsa; t=1605699719; h=from : to : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=girTo2uQ/zfSnwdP4VHmiEape7fEAFi0lGgsg+AcTYE=; b=1LTAv3bHJExiCCzcYWGA62XZa8MhW27I4MmB1/qMYP6P1HnJ5rhgG5NT2PNdTY1I6GH0v cJt5Elaj05mFnRa3xQZ97EfSx7ih5T/HKSAwMqQyUkPboPn4m/U4/IHl67+1NNs2IyFfg3X 313fYIF8yIHDZUsLCBP/gpSx5mVfDmtAk0yLCWFz4dxjscoTuU3eL5yKmSCH+jU5A8Urrk1 gzzhOvbrXNERhnbKydjnjgi8KIR5cr0cYzhMcmw839VZxsWrW4j9pwapG++4NhYXk2VjoF+ dAp/rj/GuPHRPhuG1g1sIFwxm2cjMvm1m8o/KwcSq0i6PASTbeg29XVXBulQ== Received: from fifthhorseman.net (unknown [108.58.6.98]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA7C4F9A5 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 06:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1D4D620374; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:20:31 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQULCQgH AgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZARYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5Hw3BQkFpJWB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXGDYEA/j0ERjPxDleKMZ2LDcWc/3o5cLFwAVzBKQHppu0Be5IWAP0aeTnyEqlp RTE7M8zugwkhYeUYfYu0BjecDUMnYz6iDLgzBF3kewUWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQK1IuW0GZmcrs2mx CYMl8IHse0tMF8cP7eBNXevrlx2ZiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUC XeR7TwUJAiGl/gCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCXeR7BQAKCRDEDyVU MvKBD7KmAQCHs+7588C4jto6fMje0Nu97zzoppjJM7lrGF2rVnbHvwD+MgmGUbHzPSUrTWnZBQDi /QM595bxNrBA4N1CiXhs2AMJEPIGkReQOOXGpp0BAM7YeBnt/UNvxJAGm4DidSfHU7RDMWe6Tgux HrH21cDkAQC9leNFXJsQ7F2ZniRPHa8CkictcQEKPL8VCWpfe8LbArg4BF3ke5wSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0Cf+EiAXtntQMf51xpqb6uZ5O0eCLAZtkg0SXHjA1JlEwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5HucAhsMBQkCIaVkAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGdYcBANYnW7VyL2CncKH1 iO4Zr0IwfdIv6rai1PUHL98pVi3cAP9tMh85CKGDa0Xi/fptQH41meollLW5tLb/bEWMuUNuBQ== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:20:30 -0500 Message-ID: <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:42:03 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain On Mon 2020-11-16 23:55:27 -0800, Bob Hinden wrote: > In the chat, there is a button to move it to a separate window. I do > that, and move it so I can then go back to seeing the participant > list. I'm aware of this workaround, but when i do that i now get to perform a bunch of clunky window management (and i get to do it each time i join a new meeting). I'm asking for the tool to do the sensible thing by default. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX7TZTgAKCRDEDyVUMvKB D1ecAQDplIH5Qb4ZX9RzY8O0N2vs5IO/rc31QYsAfoiK0V+HWgEAwcuxWP96MNxs E8iVbBph93tImZB7V9mr2xWLcx+jDA4= =3wph -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 09:55:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA06B3A0DBE for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BLGZ0RfoKt4X for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DAC43A0317 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id w24so3548414wmi.0 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:54:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=NQ7UuF4jQwPKwYZQzl8gXQR0q/8ashSSMDa0Yv0F0zQ=; b=NHMavWay2e94765LGornxL7/pm3P9XUH/HTRehCAkBR42v4wS34wZ9MWcW2sFxohQw oKLaU5ykrPQxccc2Am9b+D7bx0kvHdRB0KIj84klfRdcXGXx1yQdlroNtqTknD+kWSSr 9QImwjEqXIjBDpeiExkuDtBnWC7IjDHA8581JGkdvTj5ZF4GC1UHfZTIofI3L5wgLTh8 pTr6REetJRBGHvhmMCxp65b84AV7TyaeLRCXeDo1cLt+UOAUtbjDdwV2ByQbiWSBI8Nv Iwk3Yb7oyMRNb6sO15fHNfiXLVwwwOd4q/fm2eLwSb4hgaq4lgFTHH6QLms27WDJ2qJV ZPdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=NQ7UuF4jQwPKwYZQzl8gXQR0q/8ashSSMDa0Yv0F0zQ=; b=rPwQwpvIQPK/ZnDZtT2nDurQihk0RapAfQr/SIV+xv9G0bnM/IIgoC7OkeHuLJP69j d+B36K7wVGcQgPMCg0zNymBs9BdhjanF+vlYnw1QLjj4kwTrYjbNyewl9a6y2wny7AGK LO/eqNk1y7WpSNqVosAxSnrYfEDt8oI7ewKyfx7Zj3xF2VwZna4UQ4zwKhRrzzwL+LqP /CovDNVZYwpLzLQXRRMvzxd+SI6irLS8qhBtoaycJCbDGby4uaKf/+iTmcJtHNxgmnFQ rvSdIo+QaGWj/nmDs/T0UxIg0fp3c217k0MNma54YATlFIGuQmlFQFvXT3x7r/Tu0Al9 lacQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ZkRjM59bjEd4w8FzeBFTbsrflzEQCVZdwVeW5Of1vIJORdAqp l8QbtqtwRFbK+V0g4BdSODc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDdv4E43NUCQhNJ/amBNLp1GsZ02sAe34gmqxHBSkV4rCvvw3JmdOayOLsT2g8CxD4aDbx4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:bdc4:: with SMTP id n187mr245454wmf.147.1605722075034; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e3sm18108343wro.90.2020.11.18.09.54.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:54:34 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <7E1F8C9E-6B4E-4386-AB2C-205C70F50AE4@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6FF23B4E-EC9E-4FB4-92A3-31A04635FB02"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:54:29 -0800 In-Reply-To: <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:55:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6FF23B4E-EC9E-4FB4-92A3-31A04635FB02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, > On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:20 AM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > On Mon 2020-11-16 23:55:27 -0800, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 >> In the chat, there is a button to move it to a separate window. I do >> that, and move it so I can then go back to seeing the participant >> list. >=20 > I'm aware of this workaround, but when i do that i now get to perform = a > bunch of clunky window management (and i get to do it each time i join = a > new meeting). I'm asking for the tool to do the sensible thing by > default. I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a critical problem, but agree if it = just opened a new window when the button is pressed, it would be easier. Bob >=20 > --dkg >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6FF23B4E-EC9E-4FB4-92A3-31A04635FB02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+1X9UACgkQrut0EXfn u6hR9wf/RYWhc3jahMMruBayKI4FkHTlMpfQxXGe+lFzF8HGdY1ppp4vDZxHojg3 PM0L5MQgowrM77J/BFG7Vdi8M2WouxZp2tHSMjl99o1FJFbu4VTrdM5wTS+OY4Kg QEy4atfAMp3ihJ0Z0btSX864fOKjJXVxEPMZBldboCOQCEvgaoVnQmGgsoEW0DPh aY/wBJDeVoJUS2ycdFUJg1MFz05Sl1vH/mwwWAnWgGx+gB8ixAL2kfRwBY6de6EJ 2fLy1iuLjcONhlB7vClBnq0pOjaH3k122tFRtqwCoDMlRDgPYl8fIt7qGZjMPxjp ViCJ8DIV2KAooW1eaPinGWBe+vyN8A== =jdGm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6FF23B4E-EC9E-4FB4-92A3-31A04635FB02-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 11:05:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988413A09D1 for ; 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Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 615D520374; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:15:17 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQULCQgH AgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZARYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5Hw3BQkFpJWB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXGDYEA/j0ERjPxDleKMZ2LDcWc/3o5cLFwAVzBKQHppu0Be5IWAP0aeTnyEqlp RTE7M8zugwkhYeUYfYu0BjecDUMnYz6iDLgzBF3kewUWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQK1IuW0GZmcrs2mx CYMl8IHse0tMF8cP7eBNXevrlx2ZiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUC XeR7TwUJAiGl/gCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCXeR7BQAKCRDEDyVU MvKBD7KmAQCHs+7588C4jto6fMje0Nu97zzoppjJM7lrGF2rVnbHvwD+MgmGUbHzPSUrTWnZBQDi /QM595bxNrBA4N1CiXhs2AMJEPIGkReQOOXGpp0BAM7YeBnt/UNvxJAGm4DidSfHU7RDMWe6Tgux HrH21cDkAQC9leNFXJsQ7F2ZniRPHa8CkictcQEKPL8VCWpfe8LbArg4BF3ke5wSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0Cf+EiAXtntQMf51xpqb6uZ5O0eCLAZtkg0SXHjA1JlEwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5HucAhsMBQkCIaVkAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGdYcBANYnW7VyL2CncKH1 iO4Zr0IwfdIv6rai1PUHL98pVi3cAP9tMh85CKGDa0Xi/fptQH41meollLW5tLb/bEWMuUNuBQ== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:15:16 -0500 Message-ID: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:05:27 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Currently, when there's a show of hands in meetecho, there are two actions any participant can take: - raise my hand - do not raise my hand in my experience, if a meeting has 100 participants, you're lucky to get 50 that select either of the above options. At least half tend to give no response at all. There are two reasons to give neither response though: - the question is confusing, invalid, wrong, i didn't understand it, or i'm not sure of the answer - i am asleep/bored/not paying attention It'd be nice to be able to to distinguish between these two large classes of non-responding participants. This is akin to including an "N/A" or "Don't know" answer in a multiple choice survey. Could such a option be added? I don't want clutter with a dozen extra options, but it would be useful to know how many people are paying attention but object to the binary framing for whatever reason. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX7VktAAKCRDEDyVUMvKB DwUeAP9Gj4iWYVBRCtG0Az2sm9LqFmt0FTXwkuE1yWmWF5ZCwAEAmvYDmT5bqv77 62aol29CECF+3jxWlHxIFCyr92Qqfw4= =bPec -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 11:27:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECA93A0A9C for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:27:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f9CcTC7WRtXl for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:26:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 013303A0A90 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id x17so2772809ybr.8 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:26:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nH5gMJ1reL4RCqGBiBCaODl7GOKzYTnbwyTCjoYGuX0=; b=jR6nH+lp7/s4Tm0JO/c0wZu7jFTWZ5rqB/vOMeUTFup5Us8PwssiV/oQzhrUhKpUGc GoZ057NBOD90yq/5ZwV0JTK/kngxfJg6OgSIjuF8xPeo5fh/FChXtxsXy9Wm28GTHV7D 8VuzaBhYA4dS/2lSbGsY42vN1oLm0gBiXi+3fjhTwfvzPhg2YgFcQbrCAVZtksSLmfMM Zt3FCKxAVjES0aiBthFBJJHWXkA3n4TX1YB5MnuEEtGSB5WwyGdB688NocTSDNliL5Cr DA7n391kS/8eAMNS+OTNj5EE3Sk0rWZLlaXx+EGa/cVzG/S+g+1JB8Mi3YxYtOUZBG+x fWZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nH5gMJ1reL4RCqGBiBCaODl7GOKzYTnbwyTCjoYGuX0=; b=fzHQqS85OoI1r4G3aOAYEXoJW5zioiRk3hasQ+GfsFqpovoYqJadAKNF4LBbAOuv7/ yyN1zUSeVRTi7JZZLXMVxuff7G2GffxCrDTG4lbx277x4NwrAnQnLW4eAfvcpd9fbhEM IOqQkdIiBbIGBz5CjoBorV4tWACXTSKFKl9Tw5P4VYUm2g1K8DL7slQoTeLIJddwTcZl KDzhmf9j212My8iC5Bi0Brn6XK8NoIgPK0bLjlguwe/gPQEH40CuRhbeDL9jJoYmwGP+ E8P0azjYlq6RGnmfgLlsu/Db86N+LDUxEeyVDz6l2OqJ3Bba7rChlumoGltE1c1srNkv VwXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533X/HpfJd1S93Y7nQXm7yuu9uKG+d2GQfI8IcUD/adO/qIooVhg qTKEdI7SBzNztbAb1eWX5I1JNodtl8Nc0yUiI8IMRuGJL/g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz4SX90Vtbx0c1n5cmdra0iuIgo2mzPaqPFt/mJsA5l/hUPW+PHsfydw3HzEjt01z9lyleMx0ZQC5ZIx6GJ5TA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5ce:: with SMTP id 197mr10298884ybf.53.1605727618141; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:26:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> In-Reply-To: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:26:32 -0600 Message-ID: To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000049107805b46698be" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:27:01 -0000 --00000000000049107805b46698be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" FWIW, "binary questions hide information" matches my experience so far this week. I'm especially thinking of Gorry asking "who has read the draft?" in TSVWG more than once, and realizing that he couldn't tell the difference between "I haven't read the draft, but I care and I'm going to", and "I'm not going to read the draft, because I don't care". I am sympathetic to not dropping a dozen options for the group to read through before clicking, but we can't even tell the difference between packet congestion and packet corruption in TCP, if the only choices are "ACKed" and "not ACKed". I should also ask if this is a tool thng, or a social problem thing? Best, Spencer On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 1:05 PM Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > Currently, when there's a show of hands in meetecho, there are two > actions any participant can take: > > - raise my hand > - do not raise my hand > > in my experience, if a meeting has 100 participants, you're lucky to get > 50 that select either of the above options. At least half tend to give > no response at all. > > There are two reasons to give neither response though: > > - the question is confusing, invalid, wrong, i didn't understand it, or > i'm not sure of the answer > > - i am asleep/bored/not paying attention > > It'd be nice to be able to to distinguish between these two large > classes of non-responding participants. This is akin to including an > "N/A" or "Don't know" answer in a multiple choice survey. > > Could such a option be added? I don't want clutter with a dozen extra > options, but it would be useful to know how many people are paying > attention but object to the binary framing for whatever reason. > > --dkg > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --00000000000049107805b46698be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FWIW, "binary questions hide information" m= atches my experience so far this week.=C2=A0

I'= ;m especially thinking of Gorry asking "who has read the draft?" = in TSVWG more than once, and realizing that he couldn't tell the differ= ence between "I haven't read the draft, but I care and I'm goi= ng to", and "I'm not going to read the draft, because I don&#= 39;t care".=C2=A0

I am sympathetic to not dro= pping a dozen options for the group to=C2=A0read through before clicking, b= ut we can't even tell the difference between packet congestion and pack= et corruption in TCP, if the only choices are "ACKed" and "n= ot ACKed".=C2=A0

I should also ask if this is= a tool thng, or a social problem thing?

Best,

Spencer

On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 1:05 PM Daniel Kahn G= illmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net> wrote:
Cu= rrently, when there's a show of hands in meetecho, there are two
actions any participant can take:

=C2=A0- raise my hand
=C2=A0- do not raise my hand

in my experience, if a meeting has 100 participants, you're lucky to ge= t
50 that select either of the above options.=C2=A0 At least half tend to giv= e
no response at all.

There are two reasons to give neither response though:

=C2=A0- the question is confusing, invalid, wrong, i didn't understand = it, or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0i'm not sure of the answer

=C2=A0- i am asleep/bored/not paying attention

It'd be nice to be able to to distinguish between these two large
classes of non-responding participants.=C2=A0 This is akin to including an<= br> "N/A" or "Don't know" answer in a multiple choice s= urvey.

Could such a option be added?=C2=A0 I don't want clutter with a dozen e= xtra
options, but it would be useful to know how many people are paying
attention but object to the binary framing for whatever reason.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--dkg
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu= ss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--00000000000049107805b46698be-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 11:51:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6733A0C54 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:51:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Fa0WmpmqlGH for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 429943A0B36 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cbthx3kR0zyW8; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:50:57 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:50:57 +0100 Cc: Daniel Kahn Gillmor , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627421856.9024611-4089991a2a02d960c022a003ba78c5a5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2ECF8B55-4CBB-412F-90BC-6129D5090B61@tzi.org> References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:51:08 -0000 On 2020-11-18, at 20:26, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > I should also ask if this is a tool thng, or a social problem thing? Yes. Of course, a bespoke tool should have prepared questions for =E2=80=9Cdid = you read the draft=E2=80=9D etc., with a useful choice of answers = prepared. Fire away with the requirements, I think your list is already 90 % = there. > "I haven't read the draft, but I care and I'm going to", and "I'm not = going to read the draft, because I don't care".=20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Nov 18 11:59:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AEF3A0B49 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:59:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KmHhPXOqhiQw for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1B6F3A0B3B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cbttz2WC7zyT1; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:59:39 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C7A42EBF-75E4-48A1-A69D-E245B912BCC9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:59:39 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627422378.446208-07b83d8645860cf49b05c30a925721b1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:59:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C7A42EBF-75E4-48A1-A69D-E245B912BCC9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 2020-11-18, at 09:20, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: >=20 > I'm asking for the tool to do the sensible thing by > default. Yes. Speaker ID also doesn=E2=80=99t work =E2=80=94 while the polling tool is opened =E2=80=94 while the attendee list is scrolled. I believe the top part of what is now the attendee list (i.e., queue and = speakers) needs to be pinned. It is also confusing for the top queue = person to move to the bottom of the speakers; can we switch this around? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten --Apple-Mail=_C7A42EBF-75E4-48A1-A69D-E245B912BCC9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEcr05t4NZlx5Xee/8VkscnDT509sFAl+1fSoACgkQVkscnDT5 09ul9Q/+NWdoK4MyiLZ9CR6Y7QU5kveBEdXsUPoCTxv/S5a33UeC0/qJK7sMIBnm irK3TPxmctymVotBC1Pa9SfbVbwZf+TA+81XGZreVWvODIYPf2oqrmEKMv90erhi 5fYH4Vr+RToyr4AuC17mPzR+VaB2ZnS9rLscEbpL1tvvtZW7PTU6GIsfY7z10uZG Cc61gXhMbrIgOofNr+ff8/9n301wm8Rs891a1/9yNdePVTLQ3kprYLOyQDw8zcXi TtwpLqeGGI5jYvAQ34Sajx00ATJfKJpcUMqbtZBzexRujyEMOpX89kFHbl301okn UaVjUxDfv9KXFg2sRsFs9VXNk3jjLu7P8qKhMOkdjge6/glovMeCF7UEFaSRVJqN 7GJULFVCm1OEfGAsQyxvl1jWHKJAO4I3fIu+rQvYLoYazYnvkOp/UkJW89X2ul5B 8TlePq9c//AgaYBgx9YUzRzOOdW0YOtSVRXUZP509zGZmQYDlUqDGvZfHiwe76KM INuqpiugXdoYHhm0v5qQCp5gl2B+Gf8y5QaPtzWyOGZKeN6LagmaiiwoNzmukHK2 M1tCzE7IW8nuYf0ltfjhx+Qq0e9A54ieYJ/B2CrbJInn2+5DUlgvAa6axLqkDHLm B6p8KwUFj0OnVhr1+6S27m9RvOrp5sIa/BkwrTOktZRLvVfj1rw= =+L5X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C7A42EBF-75E4-48A1-A69D-E245B912BCC9-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:11:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B6B3A0B77 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SMbJRPobUI_7 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x435.google.com (mail-wr1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA5723A0B6B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x435.google.com with SMTP id o15so3451428wru.6 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=pwSqKVQ7wa4OZugqJFLctnitWOSqZgQF8cwYHmkL4mo=; b=EIXJHV5z/cbMjTQWUeIe7K71oc2Vbopnfsspfu2bi41p12lM87idQfppqt4Io+7lAd Ih3ZZO9A/Iy1VwEghPokRBp5TET10HhZGWSCVw8eyM4lZ2WHN/5WN1GTlGgmCLHFHWOC OKgs1ugqoEcBHdTY1hwaAhrA/xAMSft0ktuRusvOEv7Yctjb0oiiWwfiDxfX6v47oeB+ qLL1hrdWCLYh7g/I794iCKiJKaDfWCepWaPv0vgbkA9k9NA73fn677uRtTKEUdzAPZ78 QnZDXwpHfbCfviMU1aEokUJFIFERruk6FvBQkjWrGNCGpPkusk5a/toFuiuDnpDQHWe8 nWgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=pwSqKVQ7wa4OZugqJFLctnitWOSqZgQF8cwYHmkL4mo=; b=uUItjhOjPOSmUnEqUCezJpA/6SXna+Ivb0r2pgtTdVWe3AzEvMxmP4FG2Klh5VZH5K 8+5Ko0anURDZWZpEFx05IWE5JvZ+6pSnL0WEZQmOLoNwyPkeW/Z77Z8u8KM6miAiUXMr njZNJm63TbPqvHa82AC0JKxRPEPBhXNbo1k7agzSjFGZ8CvXilgXPqLmFuMggV/9SoNE TEaJNT3rCy6eygVRITvA2gBXo7AX8lm2yvmW/tPZisP1fvWV0KRfb7A2tNuWorXI014v pXreLPDfYdY3DNRqqL9/xUB6VgP7q7LaWT2LRX5TjmF15Iyd7GZJG4vwjecd8sx6QuF1 sXvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531A270aQJFONYzAFFjttRML1WJCksY3d7xNtPlf/osVPt0FNXC2 QwkWgrvS7tygvZOwteWlqE+T00HUhNM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy94aT8GiXbQfnCpCHLd61M9wIp9aBtUxb9w4mg1KGjfayXtNyjBEdA5YlhiGewChdS3SfoMQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:4c:: with SMTP id k12mr6593844wrx.59.1605730286120; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a18sm5193096wme.18.2020.11.18.12.11.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:25 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <98532A53-DEB1-4C85-A86B-81B15011599A@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E34CD12B-4F8B-45A7-931A-12F60490CACC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:11:21 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Daniel Kahn Gillmor , Tools Team Discussion To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:11:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E34CD12B-4F8B-45A7-931A-12F60490CACC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Spencer, In my experience doing polls, asking three (or more) questions many = times does not provide clear answers. The current tool (and I note it is much improved from the last IETF hum = tool), has three choices: Raise hand (aka Yes) Don=E2=80=99t raise hand (aka No) Nothing (aka Don=E2=80=99t care) In my Monday session, we did a lot of =E2=80=9CHave your read the = draft=E2=80=9D polls. That was helpful to see as it told the chairs = if enough people had read the draft (or not) to know that we were having = a meaningful discussion. I think it would be useful to get a sense of = the room for things like adopting or advancing a draft. I doubt we can build a tool that does much more than this, that is why = we allow people to come to the mic and speak. Bob > On Nov 18, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > FWIW, "binary questions hide information" matches my experience so far = this week. >=20 > I'm especially thinking of Gorry asking "who has read the draft?" in = TSVWG more than once, and realizing that he couldn't tell the difference = between "I haven't read the draft, but I care and I'm going to", and = "I'm not going to read the draft, because I don't care". >=20 > I am sympathetic to not dropping a dozen options for the group to read = through before clicking, but we can't even tell the difference between = packet congestion and packet corruption in TCP, if the only choices are = "ACKed" and "not ACKed". >=20 > I should also ask if this is a tool thng, or a social problem thing? >=20 > Best, >=20 > Spencer >=20 > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 1:05 PM Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: > Currently, when there's a show of hands in meetecho, there are two > actions any participant can take: >=20 > - raise my hand > - do not raise my hand >=20 > in my experience, if a meeting has 100 participants, you're lucky to = get > 50 that select either of the above options. At least half tend to = give > no response at all. >=20 > There are two reasons to give neither response though: >=20 > - the question is confusing, invalid, wrong, i didn't understand it, = or > i'm not sure of the answer >=20 > - i am asleep/bored/not paying attention >=20 > It'd be nice to be able to to distinguish between these two large > classes of non-responding participants. This is akin to including an > "N/A" or "Don't know" answer in a multiple choice survey. >=20 > Could such a option be added? I don't want clutter with a dozen extra > options, but it would be useful to know how many people are paying > attention but object to the binary framing for whatever reason. >=20 > --dkg > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_E34CD12B-4F8B-45A7-931A-12F60490CACC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:51:51 -0500 (EST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <294822A9-8514-448D-B571-FE8CCDAA969F@isoc.org> From: Matthew Hodgson Organization: The Matrix.org Foundation C.I.C Message-ID: <239382be-bea1-fef1-e895-2dd2bd4940e5@matrix.org> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:51:50 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:83.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/83.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <294822A9-8514-448D-B571-FE8CCDAA969F@isoc.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2C2EBF51F7F0F9418B1ECDB7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] QUIC Jabber channel missing from Matrix trial server X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:51:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2C2EBF51F7F0F9418B1ECDB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looks like this was fixed around 10:21 UTC - the MUC had previously been bridged with an older version of the bridge and was broken due to some stale state, which is now flushed out. Sorry for the hassle! M On 18/11/2020 05:36, Dan York wrote: > Tools team, > > Thank you for the Matrix trial server. It’s been working GREAT and has > allowed me to engage in the chats without running a Jabber client. > It’s worked extremely well. > > However… the QUIC chat, quic@jabber.ietf.org > ,  did not appear inside of Matrix. I > could not find it in the list of public rooms. I could also not add it > using either of these commands: > > /join #xmpp_quic_jabber.ietf.org > :matrix.org > /join #xmpp_quic_jabber.ietf.org > :matrix-trial1.ietf.org > > > So I’m not sure exactly what happened, but we couldn’t use Matrix with > QUIC today. > > Thanks again for the Matrix trial. Other than QUIC it has been working > very well. > > Thanks, > Dan > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org --------------2C2EBF51F7F0F9418B1ECDB7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Looks like this was fixed around 10:21 UTC - the MUC had previously been bridged with an older version of the bridge and was broken due to some stale state, which is now flushed out.  Sorry for the hassle!

M

On 18/11/2020 05:36, Dan York wrote:
Tools team,

Thank you for the Matrix trial server. It’s been working GREAT and has allowed me to engage in the chats without running a Jabber client. It’s worked extremely well.

However… the QUIC chat, quic@jabber.ietf.org,  did not appear inside of Matrix. I could not find it in the list of public rooms. I could also not add it using either of these commands:


So I’m not sure exactly what happened, but we couldn’t use Matrix with QUIC today.

Thanks again for the Matrix trial. Other than QUIC it has been working very well.

Thanks,
Dan


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
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Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

-- 
Matthew Hodgson
Matrix.org
--------------2C2EBF51F7F0F9418B1ECDB7-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 14:59:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5137C3A0E26 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:59:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEzAcQoddI_Q for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E37F13A0E1A for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id l10so4186450lji.4 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:59:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eJsVR1RsVnC/ifJr2h9bUwmDLGTiu8QbQzm5GQ9fQig=; b=czYD4FctJ2U9uPA2X9xIAwy/jFAsovhD1UA8bOuUftcCnjg7tVxrX8XQL5WfGNQZkO O+dFJtnwlipfTgU4N/xM63utKYbd5E3LgmTFDek4o4I0XQXUR2eT/dnti2gB9pSjzVaI nJeOIzg/nH00XIWs85JcplHhn8xaNeTzcM8YDORVqPHg3A54rF/M3Rfdz9Ip1kdwPqRS QbESLJR6YLJGMzUPdkcg95onkI9n7u8uNktMsZtKvnlwXYRpMG822SEE9j/vxciTspRt o4eHEtMO0r9mluvqlHWCkL1gk2Ev5MvqbJ8X/zZajc7KtS+DNjTSEEx8ur/W9cST6XfB 9Uww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eJsVR1RsVnC/ifJr2h9bUwmDLGTiu8QbQzm5GQ9fQig=; b=cmOHAatu8Y1R6UFsIFA9aBcA4DruvCV2AhD1VY7NuY7oKAlR/YZkS6c2bp8UNmDKhc vlXQEbrGN+2xXPUZDZtlPDKGWuNQpF7/m9UlI9maPNCXYurKdqPD0lLojjkguNxL6Ii8 QEPPxrLOEPHAS+ujyuom/nQ+ZgK4jlx3dLmvAXaf6ojSIZg8DEvz6Bzk65Z/m3hsEC2a TrWL9XMl55n45yVFqPVKz5o6rRsjTaAl8onDu9DkfeeWLYiGM/1dy1hIy3mIf4WzaNws 3d7rubknZky/O/CBGomSzEa80hAjE6YhLR7IxOtYeraUUZclq3sK4TJHdY53bt2Dz6R8 VoVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531QeBHaicMuUcQjLHmZeOXgzy+ujRtDQFEhYqfo+cwKB3Rym0A6 fvexvF3yarX5Ujn30z0e+cy8pM/st5WDXivcjfu9kJJIZhJFTg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyK5oKQzw0VJuooTyuJ/YCIFT/vjTvizpE57WLhHh452ilLq+AAJfcuKnNcPkjUSLh7Px8ysrgLl5yWGhHtFPQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9096:: with SMTP id l22mr4919510ljg.199.1605740344755; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:59:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> In-Reply-To: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:58:28 -0800 Message-ID: To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9e0df05b4698e1e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:59:09 -0000 --000000000000d9e0df05b4698e1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" n Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:05 AM Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > Currently, when there's a show of hands in meetecho, there are two > actions any participant can take: > > - raise my hand > - do not raise my hand > > in my experience, if a meeting has 100 participants, you're lucky to get > 50 that select either of the above options. At least half tend to give > no response at all. > > There are two reasons to give neither response though: > > - the question is confusing, invalid, wrong, i didn't understand it, or > i'm not sure of the answer > > - i am asleep/bored/not paying attention > > It'd be nice to be able to to distinguish between these two large > classes of non-responding participants. This is akin to including an > "N/A" or "Don't know" answer in a multiple choice survey. > > Could such a option be added? I don't want clutter with a dozen extra > options, but it would be useful to know how many people are paying > attention but object to the binary framing for whatever reason. > Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't be provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs want and with whatever content. -Ekr --dkg > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --000000000000d9e0df05b4698e1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
n Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:05 AM Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.= net> wrote:
Currently, when there's a show of hands in= meetecho, there are two
actions any participant can take:

=C2=A0- raise my hand
=C2=A0- do not raise my hand

in my experience, if a meeting has 100 participants, you're lucky to ge= t
50 that select either of the above options.=C2=A0 At least half tend to giv= e
no response at all.

There are two reasons to give neither response though:

=C2=A0- the question is confusing, invalid, wrong, i didn't understand = it, or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0i'm not sure of the answer

=C2=A0- i am asleep/bored/not paying attention

It'd be nice to be able to to distinguish between these two large
classes of non-responding participants.=C2=A0 This is akin to including an<= br> "N/A" or "Don't know" answer in a multiple choice s= urvey.

Could such a option be added?=C2=A0 I don't want clutter with a dozen e= xtra
options, but it would be useful to know how many people are paying
attention but object to the binary framing for whatever reason.

Is there some reason why the responses have to be = canned and can't be provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as = many as the chairs want and with whatever content.

=
-Ekr

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 --dkg
___________________________________________________________
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Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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--000000000000d9e0df05b4698e1e-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 18:23:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8400E3A097E for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:23:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OCZauy6SBPN for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 370673A0978 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 142so4576817ljj.10 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:23:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1LxohmLWXQrDHqMZ1zKoPGc27EOxz6GAD4VDM8R6sBU=; b=whETjU6xJ6zYUwd8vtbzv9akpFb9IDesg+Oc57kxLOCiu1o/MFClMZggqTTRE5/unV PsQdIwN1FDgcNqj63kps60jcc+E2myX9KnHCdn9zmhUXW4hh0zCTFXyvYbdI/Htmrnd8 lUPLY+e0pTYzdh1Iw3RHllEOxQAaZLasiFbfCUuNdyvOMF9f8Wkp2yi+avvH8uJOs/dk QuhWeoozBawAV8DETEhvRIGVuFyG1ll3zTwvtKryQ0lAwNJMFDjE3o6u4fPXMUeRKHCj x7TVx51y/vzielZoTW0AuhCute9AhW3ZZG3tgqIzrJLBLLyCsaVK2WGsR6OyxZuThcpJ el+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1LxohmLWXQrDHqMZ1zKoPGc27EOxz6GAD4VDM8R6sBU=; b=pfVhToXvdVbeOoC8Q6+k9P/vIcofhcd/ZRIzAkRc3yc5bAOvnVVWWjCtV+n1uqMXW/ 397+ICoe3FfMJGMXJwLhkzf4CTFPy+sia0EifZvPRmBIPhZOphmSG5Cu3mBP5O9JgnlA Yj8tdF2BFGcFJWA9jUwi3X9Hxwi/b3hcV4HKL9f/VUz7v9YqmLWvroaoNGZA168Vy5po +Is+DWObXEtW4iaNjb2RuB6EhqRPQ0Ax9JaDLn8E65G6x3khmUVS56rnZ2X/lPx82xnj tQCxr4UF0Ppem84LH/IbY0r53bL5uLOgFhpczGWFLrsPZUyp47wN0flyGI/RjI8fmeAW 2NSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533d2P/RhX96Ru0mU8OIo6oOc7qeu9vfU4gKO6yJ1h6fTKcZkK0Y ZVRgDVnj8P9x/n/RwtGtiSrQ2rsazSsM6KomoWu+2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyvGqipRMIJAs5z82iG5z2jSBNqM06wnDRhKK3nbs2j39QuaRllyIzwF4KLleVfJl+z6fGbUcB7jVc5XF9V5Xs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8983:: with SMTP id c3mr4855039lji.184.1605752624285; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:23:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> In-Reply-To: <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:23:08 -0800 Message-ID: To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4a3eb05b46c6aa5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:23:47 -0000 --000000000000c4a3eb05b46c6aa5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:18 PM Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't be > > provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs > want > > and with whatever content. > > If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some > pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), > it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can > preview them before the "hand raising" starts. > > My experience with in-person WG activity is that the chairs typically > propose a hum with two options, look the (awake) people in the room in > the eyes, and say "does this seem about right?" and about a quarter of > the time someone says "hey, i think we need a third option, how about > X". Then the chairs agree or disagree, then the hum proceeds. > > That initial pause between the framing of the options and the conducting > of the hum/poll is really useful to make sure that at least the awake > participants are all trying to tackle roughly the same problem. it'd be > good to have something analogous in our online tooling. > This all sounds good to me. -Ekr > --dkg > --000000000000c4a3eb05b46c6aa5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:18 PM Danie= l Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorsem= an.net> wrote:
On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't= be
> provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs = want
> and with whatever content.

If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some
pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple),
it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can
preview them before the "hand raising" starts.

My experience with in-person WG activity is that the chairs typically
propose a hum with two options, look the (awake) people in the room in
the eyes, and say "does this seem about right?" and about a quart= er of
the time someone says "hey, i think we need a third option, how about<= br> X".=C2=A0 Then the chairs agree or disagree, then the hum proceeds.
That initial pause between the framing of the options and the conducting of the hum/poll is really useful to make sure that at least the awake
participants are all trying to tackle roughly the same problem.=C2=A0 it= 9;d be
good to have something analogous in our online tooling.

This all sounds good to me.

-Ekr<= /div>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --dkg
--000000000000c4a3eb05b46c6aa5-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 18:27:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBB13A0995 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:27:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=dd/HwnFk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=sbeJDxEw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PttF5GjyKKcu for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:116::7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2563B3A0992 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:27:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019; t=1605752311; h=from : to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=2rvJIVNd36iTcIdmx9cc50y5TrstsYYcNDwNfGNw558=; b=dd/HwnFkRF60UvwXRPon0yVI5jVylsFf98EGsgDYOd87rbgMUhVEMOkAIpPfZO1tMHU+V gFVn8/ldokLZ+vCCw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019rsa; t=1605752311; h=from : to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=2rvJIVNd36iTcIdmx9cc50y5TrstsYYcNDwNfGNw558=; b=sbeJDxEwB1ucmjukSKt1feExke4++y2JFGAd1R4z3QKoy332pVvgFv9t8HFcONzF95ApG uJ+LB2bQClz+SmviGMEIMqJJpXAcsDgMeITDzoy/4hkjM8el7D4P5VHXZFGv7NkKXR+GOpr oO+7IH1VYAktYhU1OXVa6OSvjZkMso4sYxsKdCMqt5oskMy75EKHOwNu70n8qSCjHJmFQF+ qb3Q42yesIZaEQZXmbB5E8MFHd09U9OB8kQPC1+wo1JexVCXIrgoQ1PORV/xwfb9RHpHdSU Ha0O1GuTciTHOUyBdXTQgdlWM0KDkWjRBemH1AJSZKRUQfC9x7mg3e1RtfDg== Received: from fifthhorseman.net (unknown [108.58.6.98]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 248FAF9A8; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E8FA72049A; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:33:10 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Eric Rescorla Cc: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQULCQgH AgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZARYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5Hw3BQkFpJWB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXGDYEA/j0ERjPxDleKMZ2LDcWc/3o5cLFwAVzBKQHppu0Be5IWAP0aeTnyEqlp RTE7M8zugwkhYeUYfYu0BjecDUMnYz6iDLgzBF3kewUWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQK1IuW0GZmcrs2mx CYMl8IHse0tMF8cP7eBNXevrlx2ZiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUC XeR7TwUJAiGl/gCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCXeR7BQAKCRDEDyVU MvKBD7KmAQCHs+7588C4jto6fMje0Nu97zzoppjJM7lrGF2rVnbHvwD+MgmGUbHzPSUrTWnZBQDi /QM595bxNrBA4N1CiXhs2AMJEPIGkReQOOXGpp0BAM7YeBnt/UNvxJAGm4DidSfHU7RDMWe6Tgux HrH21cDkAQC9leNFXJsQ7F2ZniRPHa8CkictcQEKPL8VCWpfe8LbArg4BF3ke5wSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0Cf+EiAXtntQMf51xpqb6uZ5O0eCLAZtkg0SXHjA1JlEwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5HucAhsMBQkCIaVkAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGdYcBANYnW7VyL2CncKH1 iO4Zr0IwfdIv6rai1PUHL98pVi3cAP9tMh85CKGDa0Xi/fptQH41meollLW5tLb/bEWMuUNuBQ== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:33:10 -0500 Message-ID: <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:27:24 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't be > provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs want > and with whatever content. If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can preview them before the "hand raising" starts. My experience with in-person WG activity is that the chairs typically propose a hum with two options, look the (awake) people in the room in the eyes, and say "does this seem about right?" and about a quarter of the time someone says "hey, i think we need a third option, how about X". Then the chairs agree or disagree, then the hum proceeds. That initial pause between the framing of the options and the conducting of the hum/poll is really useful to make sure that at least the awake participants are all trying to tackle roughly the same problem. it'd be good to have something analogous in our online tooling. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX7XLVgAKCRDEDyVUMvKB DwJLAP9Bi0uIyBpiS1uKlOxHOtER7e+REriUH0nys7RTJqE4WgD+KX71YhL8F87p DtnGXU7/RAjiGw1wX3CYwiNiKmJGTw8= =G2FQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 19:09:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75CF3A0B21 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:09:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:09:42 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-622-g4a97c0b-fm-20201115.001-g4a97c0b3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 14:09:22 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?polls_=22show_of_hands=22=3A_can_we_in?= =?utf-8?q?clude_a_=22i_don=27t_understand=22_or_=22not_enough_information?= =?utf-8?q?=22_option?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:09:46 -0000 On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, at 12:33, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't be > > provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs want > > and with whatever content. > > If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some > pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), > it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can > preview them before the "hand raising" starts. A related suggestion: have the poll take the place of the slides. Or show it in an overlay. The tabbed interface is quite poor for this. As a chair, I found that trying to construct a poll while also managing a queue and trying to monitor chat is impossible alone. As a participant, with slightly less responsibility, but more engagement with discussion, it's nearly as bad. Having chat visible while formulating the poll would be ideal as well, as suggestions for text could be more readily copied. From nobody Wed Nov 18 19:12:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094B63A0B22 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:12:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=nOUTtKm4; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=oXFJK5UM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e3gShlyAKVVk for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF9B73A0B21 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBDC5C01A6 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:12:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=D3M885nPg+HvHqudWp0MI0bO97pS0wE2fdXFvUAOlAo=; b=nOUTtKm4 WcKhhxZf3yObk1JOL9KTUzQGWeXpGZ2iYuN67cKmdcaIzIsED11HNrIhIJjmdJDs eSB0mb9Ye6N090QoNLWpJFxvllwenpyp9w4+NcJGMjtAkUfLL+ntk47YUbeQU4T+ qfeyjmdbE9Ckh5gMd7jXgU/c/1P5Yv3chgM7FqRsRosKkHwP6Vf3l9YytfSr0rAP I7d+TJpl8lzd9DDEO9ZOw1B1xey/JHL9/fBRFi7zf8D0EgrVs3IqD0eHF51azsL3 iy3XXmK8uSBaD2xu4LC12jNaP/0fLtwUIFsqSCscvaO7QwJfPM++mqwdedGexlu4 7Ho45BMKZTNdnQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=D3M885nPg+HvHqudWp0MI0bO97pS0 wE2fdXFvUAOlAo=; b=oXFJK5UMV/8rJBhKxHC+9BHb7Pqu7sI3Iz53tjuyFZJhO etdvv+/snKPuhAayvq8OFVZTm9vI9a75/anoEBR2f9NhyyHm1mk+86DmGxWiu0xV NJ0y0jJru4IPu6oc3XpJ0xZAeZgTI21QF/d0EnOpXJKpdYuJSm30fYpTkITqwSmv 4hv5nGQuMxvWJyec9JZTIdrDHoW3pCP8BTklyTK3SNdJJNTzYL9TSW8q0pnrn5do t7p8gwSaLQ4NmhAb3m9k4W6Yn+C1iAdGKqyVBT6K44pVVnid/aFjQeX3JVdCMuhF 2UxlUja13u2E8R60zGW3NWjwc+R/Xzf17jQ0I/7uQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrudefiedgheehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfffhffvufgtsehttdertd erredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigv nhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevgfdutdfgjeefudeuheekhe ekudeugeehfeegveekkeegleevveffueduffehheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A47AC201E0; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:12:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-622-g4a97c0b-fm-20201115.001-g4a97c0b3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 14:12:23 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Show the queue and active speakers always X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:12:49 -0000 As a chair, monitoring the queue and the chat is basically impossible. I've found that a great deal of relevant discussion occurs in chat, but constant switching is difficult to manage. Rather than layer these in a tabbed view, I would greatly prefer if the queue (and active speakers) were shown in a distinct area of the screen. In the presentation view, that could be below the active video. In the gallery view, that could be at the bottom. From nobody Wed Nov 18 19:43:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FD33A082F for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7S1-dum0OX6 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B94003A0829 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id c198so3932353wmd.0 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=4SGeugyR6PYpbzFYQX5JL4ga1rumYj9zBZwqovnmy6M=; b=url39z47pYrnThcmfJToqsBTr3VLUwU0ad3hcTKFhi/VXLRkZVpD9gXwhIk9pouZN+ YamRSijvnbp1Ba4QSRDKGzNTyhg9pq8MMZG703ql0Ws7ZL83jOn9DXgA1afj9m3kw/JB aC33OS2nBuKJjhPkRoItxpjsx5/c8xSZ7da022f+FJz3AqFrm1P0b+BgiBU97VHqOV8s p5Io6zslLmzuSTPSy+vPVNZjpr19962unCNqqJt3tTUvL5xsU1JZd39mz3gRUbnaCA/a 1RN/oLnWcZM/aPJmBW2lRMdjeKxxdwMkXBZRksAEsT4gEQCBFiwWkCEEM9dTBFROIUS+ EvuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=4SGeugyR6PYpbzFYQX5JL4ga1rumYj9zBZwqovnmy6M=; b=HRlcKwWB2HxSLfrsLegCO+/tU7nHcF92HZDVhe8j0FipTg2JGqTJzKfpaLRKv73Q1Z lQy0DwKNYS/icpbUwtaP3lUIgIv+iAjNSJfB0zIakCqzFPIOXuqiGo1sN7zO5xxjU2Km f3RbctINXSzaNTBvkbyZR+HlMFEXhfERvq6dhH5Ph/VAIy4p2DrirNtS1J43T/EbWyC+ oJ/MfCEt2BLncO4GUhDT7n7FzwDIPSD2bDya7cUIBZyYrrHzUEjsKFgbRhZozotCNRq5 dStzkpLLEQpNLUNf9516fIG4bwDiBY2ZsS8Rkmh/9lEs53W+DrxE63A/ykTgiO11c8y0 qOxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530pOEjLB53zFmRieg1bDFibTljIYRx8P0arFtbcw1TJ7Ef9pYz2 dQghKMV2xm9pka0PDM+JQy8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZv2Q65yruAdPM0e0Uzr/jxVMpSbb7YhPkMdEDhYxSnEBBuw7N9jCS8opMqZlxv2EwUVvOHg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:ddd7:: with SMTP id u206mr2168430wmg.27.1605757384957; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:c48f:7b8d:7703:cdf4? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:c48f:7b8d:7703:cdf4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o4sm3462096wmh.33.2020.11.18.19.43.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:04 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <1C0291CD-EDBE-4C1D-AAD6-686C4568BFCB@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8C1ECED1-36DE-4E7C-B355-115E20706345"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:43:00 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Show the queue and active speakers always X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:43:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8C1ECED1-36DE-4E7C-B355-115E20706345 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Martin, > On Nov 18, 2020, at 7:12 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > As a chair, monitoring the queue and the chat is basically impossible. = I've found that a great deal of relevant discussion occurs in chat, but = constant switching is difficult to manage. I guess I did the =E2=80=9Cimpossible=E2=80=9D. The way I did this was = to keep the chat in a separate window to the left of the main meetecho = window. That allowed me to see both at the same time. As discussed = earlier, having the chat open in a separate window by default would be = helpful. > Rather than layer these in a tabbed view, I would greatly prefer if = the queue (and active speakers) were shown in a distinct area of the = screen. In the presentation view, that could be below the active video. = In the gallery view, that could be at the bottom. I suspect there are a lot of different ways to do this, but agree that = it=E2=80=99s important for a chair to see both the chat and queue at the = same time. Bob >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_8C1ECED1-36DE-4E7C-B355-115E20706345 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+16cQACgkQrut0EXfn u6i0jQgAjChm5kFR7l8juKWm9hB07sCWn0DZvH8sqDgCUpkLLu3hFAvrWRgxbqda 8pRtwcqyzWplsq7YqBJMzx8usqgKsgYaLPHu80FIiu0GlteZL1imH/wI7v5S9IYh 4NoUE8+OAoBIODlutfPG7uU8QHaSb8PB8NurMfBwHT841SKPaIs4+lkeWjtL0TGD eWVJ/P4XSIWvScjQ45NIqET59O/6MBxMUEilQaD5FMpYBJSUbkjS9CFrTre4U5Lm Fh05BBhjyMGemS7J199T9pGyjOM5EYg/1swhnn+c2W/RnJJGBTxc/bK6HgqN+79F xz7ZQaGsRHZNT73acWizF6MgPm64ow== =HM5a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8C1ECED1-36DE-4E7C-B355-115E20706345-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 19:57:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C853A09C3 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:57:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ory7uxA6-v7g for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D76373A09B7 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58588389C7; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id qScv6dlO1tVJ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A920C389BE; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F163BF; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Daniel Kahn Gillmor , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:57:36 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe we need a "standard" set of emoji responses that WG chairs can put up= for each internet draft during the entire period of the discussion? > "I haven't read the draft, but I care and I'm going to" > "I'm not going to read the draft, because I don't care". > "I read the draft, and as a result, I have no opinion" ... It would ideally be attached to an agenda item. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+17SsACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWsHgf/eZjGifoaxInUMZghOIhBw7TYX3GNvq+DYR0amHRwKlDpkbTlzVLc6kKS aJEa/JICdBDrA6PJyTGeM5BnrDgb4qGp7AxjUpdekjXPiOHaURJeOEhGr06L7Q4x 4U/tc6YhEmJOf+t99/1qi0MwV9sx8TNUA1yySA1dN5bQWUCd2b32a068/GwDZ/Dq RZHrhxhMhEut+2saYNAyHN5mSLeVsP5fbuYKfNQYZmiGTdUgpuMq2080TE5yft9a j7bR1s+Am+Ou0c3rZBSkNSNxlV50hSJRuvI+ZoUzKkuxUeCyNjWWJFVaS67i8ubU Ng25SSHOjDiGt2Zpr//xvQva5Ca8nA== =pvj/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 22:34:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723B53A0F0F for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:34:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgLRCZb9gBBG for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 238713A0F06 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cc8zv0wKSzySK; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:34:51 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627460490.475347-acb288af0f53b267d73c872ef1735dfc Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:34:50 +0100 Message-Id: To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:34:58 -0000 I think the list at https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg might benefit from an indication of how much mold has grown over a list = (and maybe filter for active ones). Not sure it really needs to start with 101-newcomers=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Nov 18 23:18:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1618C3A10D0 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:18:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XMnr1bj8dJm for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B4DD3A0B84 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAB9389C2; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id lqdjPzdkHqG3; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E67389BB; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE5F3BF; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:18:23 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Martin Thomson" , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:18:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin Thomson wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, at 12:33, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >> On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't= be >> > provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the cha= irs want >> > and with whatever content. >> >> If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some >> pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), >> it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can >> preview them before the "hand raising" starts. > A related suggestion: have the poll take the place of the slides. Or > show it in an overlay. The tabbed interface is quite poor for this. = As THIS. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+2HD8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUiSQf/UaiYTn/1sGlibjenxdaOJHow695FIYvt0QrhGutoE/pipt9FZXvlBlM+ Nu/dlvxZTQv5n7IH6MN7RghwZn7PY6dGOXbcWqfrEa6OfubO6+doMa+9vmBHlsPR krvEU8rUR3FgmnCZRc5iOllWhrcHUSSQOuSIhrSpYUWVScdaJQyBvWBivgQ4IpH1 BMAI4S/X0DfibAIno851rB8gDoRv3X9YJNWUEnqGm6FrsrN2W/yZEay53HBwGFIt PmctBKnBQ5ZKWnAcKUNdSO2RVS/Dt9rQCm76T4wzvMN23zKkS1vQYvrlgCZS8J+/ v0ySmrllqia6LO0DCaWb3P3Kob302A== =gPmR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 23:25:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413613A10F8 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nIm6_AeMyYAt for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62d.google.com (mail-pl1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C3E43A10F6 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id u2so2456964pls.10 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=m8vATVAw+0VhyoVFAzcDZy6CViB97rqDeuii3D4I6mE=; b=lcyneh6sjiho0wcnfnHAgi9pCRSVVic04/kWn0Phsmfsmadn0UpUAyB7azOwQ3CKw9 lPHH8Iqy59mFF1pm65AqzMQ57rauBczwyIZaK1XtU6/AE7R1TjS3MqyDNF3So153uRU8 RUxeFZaD6VkMVfbRTnl5TwtdIvlVMARd7kpdmrPAnEKZyMXjEIvLw/n0Qx41YQkaeXUi MZLhcnFcr7MIKLTOBqr+Elot7wgkprlI1uFDg8bCPM4GTx6FO03w6AezK3vC7VPn+CKQ gnGGDId9r//NlcnrkZ8N/RG+uIL+h4IgTOL4drh8p99HSl0j9aoeB5VMJiuzBRK6e3K2 Z3lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=m8vATVAw+0VhyoVFAzcDZy6CViB97rqDeuii3D4I6mE=; b=E2keBTivEoREybcbotI1FLxIRUzDnGyPX4uVCPHZxHswYI026tYFvgQqk7I+78nicT 4v6ymODtR2H8J8sXLoPIBv2EnJEuDn9FFduvJXTqz/kyk+TmJG6IVdwtc3OKWIXynVEn V/dfwK4fDiaBIXqCtt731S4hG63ihF1BinF48G2xJ8KsEmOvZ8K42c4sB4cjQqcCYvbN DBFkiUhMGlqV807paH3SIVVkLKonHOb1jfgb+E6fiqEuC/OlgnNxx6ieAl6K9TSVkiSS r7Je9JTurHi4lkgxadg5Jzizo9PbHmm5Jr1aj49pMmsF2s7syru8ixmV94+J7WihFu2Z ZMQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531772MQ0K66eMaXd0y5K30I0/3cKZiXGJp0tkqej6HCgDbYIRvn jJnsbLy1gthnqXkzmeeUqE8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkSVgaY2naB2kVzSBPV8bMq9LBe8mferRJ9j0HEl0bkZ44IOAFYgLz+kLzR7bw0Km/0XX7eA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b582:b029:d6:6008:264d with SMTP id a2-20020a170902b582b02900d66008264dmr7892129pls.80.1605770704383; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:c48f:7b8d:7703:cdf4? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:c48f:7b8d:7703:cdf4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l20sm28849085pfd.103.2020.11.18.23.25.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B638CAE-0063-47C7-9EBD-7C9CC9EA3DEF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:25:02 -0800 In-Reply-To: <23568.1605770303@localhost> Cc: Bob Hinden , Martin Thomson , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> <23568.1605770303@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:25:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4B638CAE-0063-47C7-9EBD-7C9CC9EA3DEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 18, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, at 12:33, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >>> On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't = be >>>> provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the = chairs want >>>> and with whatever content. >>>=20 >>> If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some >>> pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), >>> it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can >>> preview them before the "hand raising" starts. >=20 >> A related suggestion: have the poll take the place of the slides. Or >> show it in an overlay. The tabbed interface is quite poor for this. = As >=20 > THIS. I agree. Bob >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_4B638CAE-0063-47C7-9EBD-7C9CC9EA3DEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+2Hc4ACgkQrut0EXfn u6hm5gf8DDgsukh78fvDknFAXl0OKMqT/jciznCtObtPtaztD1BO6sT32pNcx6oo C+a87tYF0/GCtkFA50KYfCnDuf0/avr4MB4fu/qWbed3NnZggmLet4TFvrnGwJvk FgfHlBN7wJ+XuXf3j6rtuB4ipC0bBfPG1LOSoVoaqOWUfm+H/uQA1kbuB6ix4zAJ H9rieJAxdoXILRApwTHQRfmWee7vs7Gr/th2NhSAp49NEpPsief9YlC10lmsv9cz QBMtw6sKPZRuY8h/C4H6FFaReqZbWOUPG1XFJEMplzoRnahJI559tsqkHELSz10j +saKU6cyN4x6dQ5yIXLgu/ie4W8new== =4f+P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4B638CAE-0063-47C7-9EBD-7C9CC9EA3DEF-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 23:51:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B9E63A113A for ; 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Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:51:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BFBA720374; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:37:29 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7E1F8C9E-6B4E-4386-AB2C-205C70F50AE4@gmail.com> References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <7E1F8C9E-6B4E-4386-AB2C-205C70F50AE4@gmail.com> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQULCQgH AgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZARYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5Hw3BQkFpJWB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXGDYEA/j0ERjPxDleKMZ2LDcWc/3o5cLFwAVzBKQHppu0Be5IWAP0aeTnyEqlp RTE7M8zugwkhYeUYfYu0BjecDUMnYz6iDLgzBF3kewUWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQK1IuW0GZmcrs2mx CYMl8IHse0tMF8cP7eBNXevrlx2ZiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUC XeR7TwUJAiGl/gCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCXeR7BQAKCRDEDyVU MvKBD7KmAQCHs+7588C4jto6fMje0Nu97zzoppjJM7lrGF2rVnbHvwD+MgmGUbHzPSUrTWnZBQDi /QM595bxNrBA4N1CiXhs2AMJEPIGkReQOOXGpp0BAM7YeBnt/UNvxJAGm4DidSfHU7RDMWe6Tgux HrH21cDkAQC9leNFXJsQ7F2ZniRPHa8CkictcQEKPL8VCWpfe8LbArg4BF3ke5wSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0Cf+EiAXtntQMf51xpqb6uZ5O0eCLAZtkg0SXHjA1JlEwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5HucAhsMBQkCIaVkAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGdYcBANYnW7VyL2CncKH1 iO4Zr0IwfdIv6rai1PUHL98pVi3cAP9tMh85CKGDa0Xi/fptQH41meollLW5tLb/bEWMuUNuBQ== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:37:28 -0500 Message-ID: <871rgqax7b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] meetecho web interface request: see who is sending audio while viewing chat X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:51:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed 2020-11-18 09:54:29 -0800, Bob Hinden wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a critical problem I'm not saying this is a "critical problem" -- i'm trying to report my experience using the tool and what would be an improvement for me (and probably others). Please see my bug report/feature request as the act of generosity and demonstration of support that it is. Not every report needs to be a "critical problem" -- i'm trying to help make the tool better for everyone by identifying a real concern so that those with the capacity to address it are aware that the tool could be even better than it already is. I'm sure that's a goal we all share on this list. > but agree if it just opened a new window when the button is pressed, it w= ould be easier. I do not want new windows! I already objected to "clunky window management" upthread here. If i'm in a voice-only conference with a large group, the *most useful* thing that any adjunct interface can provide me with is an immediate (and silent) understanding of who is currently speaking. I can't imagine any user/listener would *not* want that. But the meetecho web interface currently doesn't do it by default. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX7XaaQAKCRDEDyVUMvKB D4mCAP9+NISqSilIt/P3F1mklN8MvIucyG1TqG4ERoJfRDh8ogEAiRewZI/Tb7JW LcWv0kw+2xh+O8F9HVQU6XV56GvndgI= =wJLf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 00:20:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1CB3A1184 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 00:20:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=f90ObxkI; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Rp30g/DT Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8iXVccWRzvzC for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 00:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BE103A1183 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 00:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F5D5C00F2 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:20:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=VW1qn r5Qe2gcErFBkLc6VL1BfHo+vK5w0y+27+67+f8=; b=f90ObxkITMrivfObAJmRu OjKtVox59/3WReOblA8a4Q2XB9m6k9bKkXqhzci3M5Cjqm2/GPctU08MVY1FdYfA Dr4gVUHDXkPR3Uf/dP2+PACo8iAmjZn0zY5KNxgjlCOPp/pb3slJ1kjfyx/HyqYa PNK3q0ow44gUdRdCs0GtR3Ls0E1mOYj8XsPkN3yhpTALc0foZ8lTvA9pCObZunQB oEKz4bwcgJ+zg82YMrlCgsYjidoeIZxMJHu6aM1SoEJi22swmQhihL/gjPHe50sG 639P2p/EGO3Hz5gI4vSOz3HMp3aAfSJHkKXrmJkCuP8pJJI8Wsk3/8uiwBpCXXsZ w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=VW1qnr5Qe2gcErFBkLc6VL1BfHo+vK5w0y+27+67+ f8=; b=Rp30g/DTAm9mHmJJveLW7trM0RUXrDnkSUGy39hySeS9MdEIyhM0vOnIG i3I7Tj0eAdz+eGImj5pYYN/DRKak/4s8oSIlUbIMRH1dKS0Jp0nk70OeJRbAsZD6 Ct6J49bbtLwR/45zYzINZFzWP85tTzYS7ideJiuUDYGVqjgaYeb6PZu/NEvK3Xnx pxvM/PWEToTOnxhnZtL0knfy4kwES0P049oEeI7rwH8PafRvixW5jHsW7kX6Udyf HtmkCtsGyRq3tpGgPBcO7OnOdOCDwGxLBtSFRFeGqF7qxWmYTFBR1582gDwcnSPX DbqRTuGCJEEV9KJxqjWOLnhXqBF2Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrudefiedgudduiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgse htqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmthes lhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefftefgvedvhfdtff ehjedufefhhfevhedufefhgfelleetieefgeefgffgleehgfenucffohhmrghinhepihgv thhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1BC9620162; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:20:23 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-622-g4a97c0b-fm-20201115.001-g4a97c0b3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <871rgqax7b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> References: <87eekscv6b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <1596BA72-343E-4CE2-9CA0-5937C7F124CD@gmail.com> <87lfezaxf5.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <7E1F8C9E-6B4E-4386-AB2C-205C70F50AE4@gmail.com> <871rgqax7b.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:20:02 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?meetecho_web_interface_request=3A_see_?= =?utf-8?q?who_is_sending_audio_while_viewing_chat?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 08:20:25 -0000 Thanks dkg, you captured my sentiments on the matter very well. On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, at 13:37, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > On Wed 2020-11-18 09:54:29 -0800, Bob Hinden wrote: > > I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a critical problem >=20 > I'm not saying this is a "critical problem" -- i'm trying to report my= > experience using the tool and what would be an improvement for me (and= > probably others). >=20 > Please see my bug report/feature request as the act of generosity and > demonstration of support that it is. Not every report needs to be a > "critical problem" -- i'm trying to help make the tool better for > everyone by identifying a real concern so that those with the capacity= > to address it are aware that the tool could be even better than it > already is. I'm sure that's a goal we all share on this list. >=20 > > but agree if it just opened a new window when the button is pressed,= it would be easier. >=20 > I do not want new windows! I already objected to "clunky window > management" upthread here. If i'm in a voice-only conference with a > large group, the *most useful* thing that any adjunct interface can > provide me with is an immediate (and silent) understanding of who is > currently speaking. I can't imagine any user/listener would *not* wan= t > that. >=20 > But the meetecho web interface currently doesn't do it by default. >=20 > --dkg >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 > Attachments: > * signature.asc From nobody Thu Nov 19 02:56:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A153A0965 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:56:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KSXMTrwQ7g-b for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpcmd0986.aruba.it (smtpcmd0986.aruba.it [62.149.156.86]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0703A07DE for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 02:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.231] ([2.232.93.8]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id fhbiklRjCAfw1fhbikNWOJ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:56:06 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1605783368; bh=ec+rtd4hCsixm5MnsgcvN8GBAToL6saFYvz1sqVV7VE=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=d++Psl9aS5R8HAk7QGntdKhl0/Ut+sMkxcFcgGdT/POvePdHC6EmG78nKZtDJSLtj fOrx+DwNS4pvBzKc8e75IikbJvJHsK68KN/kdJYyRrAjSovs7vZDA40Zgx/yWIOA83 Ps+JLxa2vtaQazIenEFG91ipLIgF7oxDk1WZw6d5K5VxQ8XJhmuVtsPYIYlLbEyTan FJWounIMLBER+wNo4y9WHVLvQftZv+G7/FKf5bYnE2XPx8ZnvuwC5weLu/yDrFvVKh Q3S9j39xUS519/r0nwHeop/of9MbExjq2b1fEDAWc4gwj2pnQGbJq/u8aJ1tfasD8r JfmfdP9JoZ7QQ== To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> From: Meetecho IETF support Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:56:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/68.0 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPdXI7EErEkZk+O8yW0A0ULDvIGnGty39qmM+STBcmECPE6C317J+iUOtPytamNUNa2hXAxcbg77iE80q0gEB8ilxFIKh+J2AXe28YhWc0GxsUXN694V 61y9xX5BGN/hgk5ytPxLe56Ll5xEeJYMxbXX7Hx9+l3fG/UzxL1s5ECC Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:56:20 -0000 Il 19/11/20 04:09, Martin Thomson ha scritto: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, at 12:33, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >> On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't be >>> provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs want >>> and with whatever content. >> >> If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some >> pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), >> it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can >> preview them before the "hand raising" starts. > > A related suggestion: have the poll take the place of the slides. Or show it in an overlay. The tabbed interface is quite poor for this. As a chair, I found that trying to construct a poll while also managing a queue and trying to monitor chat is impossible alone. As a participant, with slightly less responsibility, but more engagement with discussion, it's nearly as bad. > > Having chat visible while formulating the poll would be ideal as well, as suggestions for text could be more readily copied. While this list is the right place to discuss change requests like the one above, OTOH I think the specs of the "show of hands tool" are captured in the draft below and comments on that should probably be addressed to the SHMOO list: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-shmoo-show-of-hands-00 -Alessandro > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Thu Nov 19 03:08:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022143A07C0 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:08:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RlLV_MVgUsS1 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32A233A07F9 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71894389BB; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id QJyFbehTQGmw; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81821389B9; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571881AA; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:07:49 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:08:07 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: > I think the list at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg > might benefit from an indication of how much mold has grown over a li= st > (and maybe filter for active ones). > Not sure it really needs to start with 101-newcomers=E2=80=A6 I suggest that any list without a posting in the last 365 days gets moved to a section at the bottom of the page. When/how/if to delete them is above my pay grade. =2D- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+2UgUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUDTQf+MwBGteMe/ynPUmWPn4/9niGDR0O1dFHqZ2t/vtfpi4n9RIsou+YrGg2X 32jm8a1XGMWwVLaUUVPk3ayEbU+ywNT/qjZnnUN/7g5+U8W5cqgEXGURPPPd5FAu JqACNweUfXy+Y1AbBNnsa9Gvk1y6uxdIq6Xl/8KzSPbxlBeLkhXYfTVk90PVvRUD TGs4wzXLT7+XiDXdq4fdEWGjEqjA48cmlyMcQ/1dU9+KD22DTifcX8aX7iOg+0Zh 0YzRm641ikSe4OAkSDc0fUrJ/5fMNKc4xdYEQI5Q72wvtpcK77oh27Uy4PCDjB+o d/UpmHK0C8Gc40f+VtPvPBd/gCLPGQ== =M7jE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 03:11:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4CA3A0836 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:11:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id baFt978Xms4b for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A6553A0825 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 03:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CcH6x3cKVzyhB; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:11:21 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <16561.1605784069@localhost> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:11:21 +0100 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627477081.043371-692a4f0eb0f3f8368589c6589d36b2ae Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <16561.1605784069@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:11:26 -0000 On 2020-11-19, at 12:07, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 >=20 > Carsten Bormann wrote: >> I think the list at >=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg >=20 >> might benefit from an indication of how much mold has grown over a = list >> (and maybe filter for active ones). >=20 >> Not sure it really needs to start with 101-newcomers=E2=80=A6 >=20 > I suggest that any list without a posting in the last 365 days gets = moved to > a section at the bottom of the page. =20 Sounds good, > When/how/if to delete them is above my > pay grade. =E2=80=9CDeleting=E2=80=9D would be wrong (we need the archive). Even =E2=80=9Cclosing=E2=80=9D would be questionable =E2=80=94 recently, = the ROHC list turned out to be useful after two years of silence. There = was a bit of a hiccup when IAB decided to close some lists... Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 19 09:20:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8F43A0E01 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KDCW9rzEn4aD for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9CD73A0DA1 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A709548019; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:20:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 4056D440059; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:20:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:20:21 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <20201119172021.GN39343@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <16561.1605784069@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:20:32 -0000 Each list should have: a) A visible "owner" of the list. Whatever that is (IESG, IAB, any other "org", individual) b) A history of the description of the list with who and when the description was changed. That would allow for anyone getting to what looks like a stale list to do a bit more of an educated guess whats going on with the list. >From then on out, we could determine if therer should be c) a trigger to the owner to update the list after some type of event, such as: c.1) There was no mail to the list for 1 year c.2) The description was not changed for 5 years. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-11-19, at 12:07, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > > > Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> I think the list at > > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg > > > >> might benefit from an indication of how much mold has grown over a list > >> (and maybe filter for active ones). > > > >> Not sure it really needs to start with 101-newcomers??? > > > > I suggest that any list without a posting in the last 365 days gets moved to > > a section at the bottom of the page. > > Sounds good, > > > When/how/if to delete them is above my > > pay grade. > > ???Deleting??? would be wrong (we need the archive). > Even ???closing??? would be questionable ??? recently, the ROHC list turned out to be useful after two years of silence. There was a bit of a hiccup when IAB decided to close some lists... > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Nov 19 10:48:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAFB3A0FD2 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RkDW-0rO1wGl for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8AA33A0658 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id w24so7690183wmi.0 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=8DUjjMOpmqpYoZtjJzmcuYMl6Rf9Z3ZOAaLUpLSKIaQ=; b=cjVp2kGWQ40e50w0o2/1DwWw2XmLTK9+ZRiVQ8oQr4mTFUQBEkR4wHh+2d+Fr946B6 IrKjvXR2VYD1dEsD8/4FW7mCd1L+p2fdgnYd9gqFwslPqkn2viKB2vC9/lrNkYEsc6La b964URqmMwXtqUnZEZEO6FkF6OjvKVG/OvJcShqumtYvrwYTZRM4d5NI7y1bq9f4l3mt kCio2OvL4RdTWYf36mQDWyS/Krz1Un2+9tZAw3CjsFozOdgfQG61yC/nJ16V4rybHz2e 0w+kjGUsWJLjDFc/+uOff5vQNaPzuCFQQC+zgUZ45DtrKj1udhlTn8xeXqpemVxAdvVG Azgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=8DUjjMOpmqpYoZtjJzmcuYMl6Rf9Z3ZOAaLUpLSKIaQ=; b=jvmcF7Nd9eVkPuVM6L+Ng6Y+bC2sG7tVzR+XiDVBGVV0awW68R3Ygm46O2GFkXPy9D CbJR5lr787rzVSlJiiXgmcmmzdYZlyW08aFNuO8y/jD9CAhSYoGvhjDmUQ7GTb5lXdC2 tuLggV5KgCHBisa4UW8FAt777Ujq0+0vL7tWMs0xLp9n8qnaSOrqHpuDS6XhzD5nNHEy IHybYKw0Igo4kLsdUNwK/oFN+HyA6uBB0mcvAklDOYBDD2cnYiyiqkVoF7J7j3ydrjIL GJ7B3ZdW4uy1PiGhxFyn9WIUILO9c24xCJVbzh2dWhAQbt7Gf8HtHlkwqACZHgjaxOOU K4xQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rsdD41iiJjs9aPw/Fxqumc4s4l5XLiPNqZvFf4viC3Yy1n4mw dSak/hAmhoJT0qvp048eZvY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhqzNm1fovip5qWr8A0BD+zMApP2GiwTl4mDu73vy9rQn/yWXsfl+8DcR7zQJ+sZhdP35jeg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a5d8:: with SMTP id o207mr6005699wme.0.1605811720034; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:c48f:7b8d:7703:cdf4? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:c48f:7b8d:7703:cdf4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z189sm1180680wme.23.2020.11.19.10.48.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_90553791-DDF7-4433-93EA-1032D8B0C3AC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:48:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion To: Carsten Bormann References: <16561.1605784069@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:48:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_90553791-DDF7-4433-93EA-1032D8B0C3AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >=20 >> When/how/if to delete them is above my >> pay grade. >=20 > =E2=80=9CDeleting=E2=80=9D would be wrong (we need the archive). > Even =E2=80=9Cclosing=E2=80=9D would be questionable =E2=80=94 = recently, the ROHC list turned out to be useful after two years of = silence. There was a bit of a hiccup when IAB decided to close some = lists=E2=80=A6 Perhaps move them to an inactive page, I agree important to keep the = archive. Might also be good to put them in moderated mode to make it = hard to spam people. Bob --Apple-Mail=_90553791-DDF7-4433-93EA-1032D8B0C3AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl+2vgQACgkQrut0EXfn u6iCmAgAvJxkfW3MQ+w9XKxO9yNG3S9jxaLh62h7a9h5zY6e85PGESF5E52E0Y1N fKb9hqcL+zXD1Ls732Z2zMJ2Ix4vfcMB0oXICKShdjMuq3TZg5v1toMDV0cOBQCO AJSziNp6mMltqF0SDLZRhaLBi1ob2ksbTSbsobaNkcVybFpmfBe1tdxLRCh4i+hn cY7owy3u8ySAeus5Y7N/5LGAvtcUcnVix8O6iUiVYemG52p5IZvSZC7kaIsnQKyj +HPqtTkK2AfOv9VDlUVabSwnn5AZ5ZEIoA8x3imIDw9R9J5FaksBfTHl3TFgZGIH KKWoupBMTP8HleM1KgagBjC7G4PuLA== =55Zg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_90553791-DDF7-4433-93EA-1032D8B0C3AC-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 11:16:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99263A1069 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:16:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g6wc0v_kJMM0 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA79D3A1065 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BAB548069; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:16:25 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 3C174440059; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:16:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:16:25 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Bob Hinden Cc: Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <20201119191625.GP39343@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <16561.1605784069@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:16:34 -0000 Bob: Not sure if inventing new dedicated groups / status ("inactive") is going to be very helpfull. We already have descriptions for groups, and thats why i was sugggesting that simply updating the statuses of groups is IMHO most flexible - in many cases you want to redirect new trafic to othrer groups for example. How ? Just write it into the group description... Cheers toerless On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:48:36AM -0800, Bob Hinden wrote: > > > > >> When/how/if to delete them is above my > >> pay grade. > > > > ???Deleting??? would be wrong (we need the archive). > > Even ???closing??? would be questionable ??? recently, the ROHC list turned out to be useful after two years of silence. There was a bit of a hiccup when IAB decided to close some lists??? > > Perhaps move them to an inactive page, I agree important to keep the archive. Might also be good to put them in moderated mode to make it hard to spam people. > > Bob > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Nov 19 11:46:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEE63A10D7 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:46:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xP-KZdodpV3F for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 482723A1091 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CcVY86WrlzyY8; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:46:20 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20201119172021.GN39343@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:46:20 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627507980.42414-47ef30d3a5f8d4fd9786ee7053cf98e3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7838A4AA-3D2B-4BD5-826D-BC33B0EB34AD@tzi.org> References: <16561.1605784069@localhost> <20201119172021.GN39343@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:46:29 -0000 On 2020-11-19, at 18:20, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Each list should have: >=20 > a) A visible "owner" of the list. Whatever that is (IESG, IAB, any = other "org", individual) >=20 > b) A history of the description of the list with who and when the = description was changed. >=20 > That would allow for anyone getting to what looks like a stale list to = do a bit more of an > educated guess whats going on with the list. >=20 > =46rom then on out, we could determine if therer should be >=20 > c) a trigger to the owner to update the list after some type of event, = such as: > c.1) There was no mail to the list for 1 year > c.2) The description was not changed for 5 years. I wasn=E2=80=99t asking for more process, just for a better display of = the list. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 19 11:50:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EFBF3A0AE5 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:49:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A5rIUjKrcInk for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5C9F3A0A25 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C138E54843F; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:49:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B7E4F440059; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:49:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:49:50 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <20201119194950.GR39343@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <16561.1605784069@localhost> <20201119172021.GN39343@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <7838A4AA-3D2B-4BD5-826D-BC33B0EB34AD@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7838A4AA-3D2B-4BD5-826D-BC33B0EB34AD@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Non-WG lists list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:49:58 -0000 Understood. IMHO, what i was asking for is also primarily better visibility. Owner of list could be entered informally into the description, and changelog shuold be standard IMHO on stuff like this On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 08:46:20PM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-11-19, at 18:20, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > Each list should have: > > > > a) A visible "owner" of the list. Whatever that is (IESG, IAB, any other "org", individual) > > > > b) A history of the description of the list with who and when the description was changed. > > > > That would allow for anyone getting to what looks like a stale list to do a bit more of an > > educated guess whats going on with the list. > > > > From then on out, we could determine if therer should be > > > > c) a trigger to the owner to update the list after some type of event, such as: > > c.1) There was no mail to the list for 1 year > > c.2) The description was not changed for 5 years. > > I wasn???t asking for more process, just for a better display of the list. > > Grüße, Carsten -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Nov 19 12:10:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6023A1119 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:10:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9KxAL9LOeOIu for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18AED3A1120 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id t18so3587180plo.0 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:10:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=18ZtV6S3sv/Yp6J9SAFe03BUIYxota59vgx45JVTWVw=; b=c0JtiN9cIpUGGdo/IRAl2dyP2BpS/EyBD9PTPO05U7+Sq00L2ug/E8/Jj5hJyPI5Hm A7W+69YobBcsiaRdjFyOQ5f5GCE+DaUZDa2yRCmHmOMGq6fAfckmeuAHypxhAFl94pJP MTkFHOQC6aIQNNvJeQyfcWk9hBjvXjK21lCr3iNp5XgBjTP/2QF4RLKCbMYwbe6g/Rd2 2i5eEgZ+fJYl7U6YqQCy0Bfm5OOGthh0kFq8pITxcksYEol93tdnIrs8FZweThxlGqGM 7WiAJxO7WPPCEkh+a8yuuetY8XjfTVRGi5P3zC1N4Deb9NvNfGeYCa3j+9Pwsf3awUIh AReA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=18ZtV6S3sv/Yp6J9SAFe03BUIYxota59vgx45JVTWVw=; b=WIxVMlyCLW+szLsaa4fHkPcrXgFDKEdDDIteq9Xeb/CTLacQYDUJZ3kVmjTaS/fsMk JLKKqRfOO9Tz9gSmqbta1NKMGPvkKfLC5JH8OZpFNf71gyn887CEmc6TsTnwMPEsO3Cy 0p7Q7tanrWfb+k03lSOL18o1ketWhKXnHnpcPYH3a/lMsT720BCZQo4MYFjFvkxpU3V4 P/ubhXP0dDdZrEVy8pXew/nRYI5BIz5t5QCtpHODpOwC9rcTzdZ+z6rI22rZQOQ9e67T 65Cx6gV6kzfQVV2wicf6JGtjusZIq5rTqfjw3U0UzNwsX3bJtt12ohbQACYnE4Du0+cv cenw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Uhgwmh3Tjrt6AorgTYH5M46G3FiqN+rR6E+0um77x6ps0JQOI NU/iVB0riH+Dg56iA46VEo0lrRcsCg4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFec8wHz4hiJtV7IgTSIDM5ZpZpWRXTZGyi2FV6ziRz5EadZ39aHQTrmuIjavbvezIlSGKpA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:868e:b029:d7:eb0d:79e8 with SMTP id g14-20020a170902868eb02900d7eb0d79e8mr10309033plo.12.1605816619028; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v126sm719225pfb.137.2020.11.19.12.10.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:10:18 -0800 (PST) To: Meetecho IETF support , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <87ima2bkgb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87a6veb06h.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <8e52e602-f4ef-4020-be67-2c9ed4fa4fb6@www.fastmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <87d967d1-56d2-0368-0fdf-7deeac900703@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:08:10 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] polls "show of hands": can we include a "i don't understand" or "not enough information" option X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:10:22 -0000 > A related suggestion: have the poll take the place of the slides. Or show it in an overlay. Yes. That's essential. On at least two occasions I heard a chair reporting the result of a show of hands when I had no idea that it had taken place: nothing told me that I should have selected that tab. At least the tab should be forcibly popped on top, or it should start flashing, or something. Regards Brian On 19-Nov-20 23:56, Meetecho IETF support wrote: > Il 19/11/20 04:09, Martin Thomson ha scritto: >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, at 12:33, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >>> On Wed 2020-11-18 14:58:28 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> Is there some reason why the responses have to be canned and can't be >>>> provided by the chairs? Then we could just have as many as the chairs want >>>> and with whatever content. >>> >>> If we do this (i'd be happy with it, and we could provide some >>> pre-canned choices for a WG chair that just wants something simple), >>> it'd be nice to stage the polling options visibly so the group can >>> preview them before the "hand raising" starts. >> >> A related suggestion: have the poll take the place of the slides. Or show it in an overlay. The tabbed interface is quite poor for this. As a chair, I found that trying to construct a poll while also managing a queue and trying to monitor chat is impossible alone. As a participant, with slightly less responsibility, but more engagement with discussion, it's nearly as bad. >> >> Having chat visible while formulating the poll would be ideal as well, as suggestions for text could be more readily copied. > > While this list is the right place to discuss change requests like the > one above, OTOH I think the specs of the "show of hands tool" are > captured in the draft below and comments on that should probably be > addressed to the SHMOO list: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-shmoo-show-of-hands-00 > > -Alessandro > >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Fri Nov 20 07:18:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748573A0C64 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 07:18:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KE5VgQFb-egU for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 07:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ACF43A0C63 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 07:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id l14so8908245ybq.3 for ; 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Fri, 20 Nov 2020 07:18:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:18:14 -0600 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f936f205b48b5be7" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Idnits confused about draft version numbers in the datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:18:42 -0000 --000000000000f936f205b48b5be7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm getting these warnings from idnits: -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of draft-bonaventure-iccrg-schedulers is -00, but you're referring to -01. -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of draft-ietf-quic-datagram is -00, but you're referring to -01. Oddly, the version numbers are coming from I-D.whatever references with no version numbers, so whatever is adding version numbers added these, but the -01 versions of these drafts do exist in the datatracker. Best, Spencer --000000000000f936f205b48b5be7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm getting these warnings from idnits:
  -- Unexpected draft version: T=
he latest known version of=20
     draft-bonaventure-iccrg-schedulers is -00, but you're referring to=
 -01.

  -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of=20
     draft-ietf-quic-datagram is -00, but you're referring to -01.
Oddly, the version nu=
mbers are coming from I-D.whatever references with no version numbers, so w=
hatever is adding version numbers added these, but the -01 versions of thes=
e drafts do exist in the datatracker. 
Best,
Spencer
--000000000000f936f205b48b5be7-- From nobody Fri Nov 20 08:41:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CA93A0E1A for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFckLQszPCYN for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 565503A0D48 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cd2P22KNgzybB; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:41:10 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:41:09 +0100 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627583269.7795399-13696fa96e4df6586a9c7e10f0a003aa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Idnits confused about draft version numbers in the datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:41:16 -0000 I=E2=80=99m sure Henrik will answer this, but the underlying problem = appears to be that idnits is an amazing, organically grown piece of = bash, awk, sed, wget, and spit holding all that together. It is a = strong candidate for a rewrite, and I=E2=80=99m not sure now how that = will happen. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten PS.: Trivia question: What is UUOUUUUUUOOUUNUOUUUSUUUUUNUUUUUUUUIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUOUUU and why is there only one S in that line? > On 2020-11-20, at 16:18, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > I'm getting these warnings from idnits: > -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of=20 > draft-bonaventure-iccrg-schedulers is -00, but you're referring = to -01. >=20 > -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of=20 > draft-ietf-quic-datagram is -00, but you're referring to -01. >=20 > Oddly, the version numbers are coming from I-D.whatever references = with no version numbers, so whatever is adding version numbers added = these, but the -01 versions of these drafts do exist in the datatracker.=20= > Best, > Spencer > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Fri Nov 20 08:55:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164CF3A0EB9 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:55:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4SQCH5iznwBJ for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 094593A0EB7 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cd2j12lnVzyRh; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:55:01 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:55:01 +0100 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627584100.896705-2b532405741901ed25ef4bf079eaa7cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <076D4CA4-902B-472E-81FB-6A54C1568B50@tzi.org> References: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Idnits confused about draft version numbers in the datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:55:07 -0000 On 2020-11-20, at 16:18, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > draft-ietf-quic-datagram is -00, but you're referring to -01. $ curl -I https://tools.ietf.org/draft/draft-ietf-quic-datagram/state HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:51:59 GMT Server: Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) Last-Modified: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:30:27 GMT Hmm. This may be one of those =E2=80=9Cthe script didn=E2=80=99t run=E2=80= =9D cases. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Nov 20 22:39:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3542F3A097D for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:39:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b0CFABvnrYS5 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2AE43A097C for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CdNzw5Cg8zyRn; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 07:39:08 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627633548.147303-15e663a2e106385702b60b40781c49ff Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 07:39:08 +0100 Message-Id: <26297AB1-8EE8-4FB7-9E11-D434B1342BDC@tzi.org> To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Screen sharing for slides X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 06:39:14 -0000 I was in several sessions this week where the chairs screen-shared the = slides and the presenters had to wake up the chairs to get the next = slide. I=E2=80=99m not sure whether that was just habit because Webex tends to = break when the presenter changes, or to shield presenters from issues of = their platform in screen sharing, or maybe because the chairs need to = keep control over unruly presenters. I=E2=80=99m used to presenting slides in BBB (the big blue button web = meeting system). This allows uploading slides (in PDF) to the meeting system; these are = then downloaded to the participants and the only information that needs = to be updated in real time is the number of the slide currently being = shown. This also frees the screen of the presenter so they can focus on = the meeting and less on window juggling and operating system bugs in = screen/application window sharing. (The one misfeature that BBB has is that you already have to have been = assigned the presenter token to be able to even upload slides; this = could be done in a more dynamic way.) In BBB, there also is a whiteboard overlayed over the slides; the = presenter can use a simple cursor or actually draw on the slide. The = whiteboard can also be opened for all to draw. BBB still has screen sharing (you want to be able to do demos etc), but = presentations are usually supported by shared slides. Many professional conference support services integrate BBB into their = offerings, so I=E2=80=99m led to think this BBB feature might be = (relatively) easy to integrate into meetecho. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Nov 23 00:02:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882413A0B89 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:02:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.218 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.218 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JmPwuBnIAUHD for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:02:35 -0800 (PST) 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Screen sharing for slides X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:02:39 -0000 QXMgYSBjb21wbGVtZW50IHRvIENhcnN0ZW4ncyBhc3Nlc3NtZW50OiBCQkIgYWxzbyBoYXMgb24t dGhlLWZseSAidm90aW5nIiwNCndoaWNoIEkgbGlrZSBhIGxvdCwgd2hlcmUgdGhlIHByZXNlbnRl ciBjYW4gc3RhcnQgYSAieWVzL25vIiwNCiJ0cnVlL2ZhbHNlIiwgIkEvQi9DIiwg4oCmICwgIkEv Qi9DL0QvRSIgY2Vuc3VzLg0KQ291bGQgYmUgd29ydGggbG9va2luZyBhdCB3aGVuIGRpc2N1c3Np bmcgdG9vbCBmZWF0dXJlcy4NCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KRG9taW5pcXVlDQoNCkxlIDIxLzEx LzIwIDA3OjM5LCDCqyBUb29scy1kaXNjdXNzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1hbm4g wrsNCjx0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGNhYm9AdHpp Lm9yZz4gYSDDqWNyaXQgOg0KDQo+SSB3YXMgaW4gc2V2ZXJhbCBzZXNzaW9ucyB0aGlzIHdlZWsg 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YXQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIG1vZGlmaWVkLCBjaGFuZ2VkIG9yIGZhbHNpZmllZC4KVGhhbmsgeW91LgoK From nobody Mon Nov 23 00:29:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C13C3A1729 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:29:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08AIMYCVynZS for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 340843A1728 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:29:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1606120165; bh=64CyFfyh/Oj3QC/5b1XwKE8j4oQOZUY8eEFKk+v9gvY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=iZz5KI9eSi/9TCEm/5nS+8zVF5tLj8/J5zy81eNUujjUqrAWBBV557bZiI95n/KJL dILnEl6y0vB41tSMUaYyPdoQPWAfdSs4cnqNoUaScbMtWPBoSRvdvsMJH4wxLDxvLh KyjJuG/2f2gRc56uTWmpZ9g9vaBYnf74zKuIhr6k= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.182] ([84.171.156.55]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N5GE1-1kHa521vGf-0118w8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:29:25 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <26297AB1-8EE8-4FB7-9E11-D434B1342BDC@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:29:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26297AB1-8EE8-4FB7-9E11-D434B1342BDC@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Jsa/pbzh89DMG/zhvN7xab3bnAao/hvz+PsMXBYNq2h8q0i96LP C8N1eOI8lBYRJWaqoLUfK46JFJ7g+vVyuWFMuNp3kf56r7ivx0KfmGBYUhXmhM4n6TO5XSe ghCUshKjANXvYO3uo1s/EBmKXYMqFcmCdUwoQlUy/6XM4lirMbtjqa9iMpjlkLOzQ7tYWIH tH/G85d99LG5hs2KE0oUw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:z2xyrHMbrEg=:oUK7FLuEZ0KfobqfrpgISL EIWfhwfhVQ80wg/Mzj7PsOy9JRR1oijiieYOkItBh/DEs4vI0S2BcwXosy19GGztSD1EamLsQ Xt0smFceWkBnfwFXWOZ3fKUjhj60ZiWud7tDeNvWxuNIJi+TxOrg8HU5sUUZNxj6ZKoAq8Hge ir37aV2D3KiAe002gV+TcSqS/hwB1dNiybaVfXWkKe9F89dVVo/lPC0SBmQG1FyvXpvv8/thG okFGR5WTb8JVIzDkDKCgSLPkfSDZQqJyTeigR7Gm4DS2qWRauCV+HuQ3xI7GhGghbjvr5lfB9 hdLGB3iy+0OVv1hHjSDtd4FQBXAq6Xod/3IyXEQQkkdIF0X2uD/stJ/wGTayLbamF9vtJBSer fkXzt6yZBayKQqbsNmllw7sCsoVM0v0Ou/L8Le2vDRQpuxmEbiPShBwbO87peINTeusWyE7qe xj8Qmf1XGqzlfzn8sRw8p5Uq5JWhIvbkOZJ2JFcnuPzwSirZEb8OAWZcx0c/mfIzBPRkb34d2 HmBW8OOvKXaj97Zhg04Ibl+Lgd8hsL7LNaSrS3Snig3XlBv4FRIhpVb8kafxClr2WG0XvkDVq CaArnVM/dzLF2/mp87IuiZ1giQC1eqmS0NlIzB0fHZqIeGvVtXlmztZT4ShrR/+JezfOfhuGK LEHUzAcjqhzpawhvrnHox8rD6FxdPiMPGfQKYiRLvzVKh+r4s8LF8pTY8OT2YoquSPjwFq9ue eapr3jH+IgW4oSL7xUPmLFo8k6RGfphABsM6CmOkPzaN6+nEkWs+DE8nKM+hoS2lDoEI1TGZP iDwAys7rOAe5ZYotR8iAnELrMQT7Uo1DQcpvfCTlmbiaW1Z7Dg0W62z0Q41RnUuIYVOFTr0xi XmRIH/2lVZ8A14LYlnLw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Screen sharing for slides X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:29:31 -0000 Am 21.11.2020 um 07:39 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > I was in several sessions this week where the chairs screen-shared the s= lides and the presenters had to wake up the chairs to get the next slide. > I=E2=80=99m not sure whether that was just habit because Webex tends to = break when the presenter changes, or to shield presenters from issues of t= heir platform in screen sharing, or maybe because the chairs need to keep = control over unruly presenters. > > I=E2=80=99m used to presenting slides in BBB (the big blue button web me= eting system). > This allows uploading slides (in PDF) to the meeting system; these are t= hen downloaded to the participants and the only information that needs to = be updated in real time is the number of the slide currently being shown. = This also frees the screen of the presenter so they can focus on the meet= ing and less on window juggling and operating system bugs in screen/applic= ation window sharing. > > (The one misfeature that BBB has is that you already have to have been a= ssigned the presenter token to be able to even upload slides; this could b= e done in a more dynamic way.) > > In BBB, there also is a whiteboard overlayed over the slides; the presen= ter can use a simple cursor or actually draw on the slide. The whiteboard= can also be opened for all to draw. > > BBB still has screen sharing (you want to be able to do demos etc), but = presentations are usually supported by shared slides. > > Many professional conference support services integrate BBB into their o= fferings, so I=E2=80=99m led to think this BBB feature might be (relativel= y) easy to integrate into meetecho. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > ... That sounds like a great feature to have. Another thing that might be helpful to people with multi-monitor setups would be to allow detaching more parts, sch as the sceen sharing part. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Nov 23 06:31:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D2C3A0CB8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:31:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLjx1X8eSom7 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B96B03A0CB5 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:50104 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1khCsE-0001jz-SF; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:31:23 -0800 To: Carsten Bormann , Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: Cc: Tools Team Discussion From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <10e22995-629a-be50-7980-79423ece2e7b@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:31:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WjcWm42Ml1bahI34Xgwg8L8EwNWW9GMCl" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Idnits confused about draft version numbers in the datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:31:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WjcWm42Ml1bahI34Xgwg8L8EwNWW9GMCl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="2csdaFLFU8CaonscJDQA8RV7OIMBWqNw9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <10e22995-629a-be50-7980-79423ece2e7b@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Idnits confused about draft version numbers in the datatracker References: In-Reply-To: --2csdaFLFU8CaonscJDQA8RV7OIMBWqNw9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-11-20 17:41, Carsten Bormann wrote: > I=E2=80=99m sure Henrik will answer this, but the underlying problem ap= pears to be that idnits is an amazing, organically grown piece of bash, a= wk, sed, wget, and spit holding all that together. It is a strong candid= ate for a rewrite, and I=E2=80=99m not sure now how that will happen. I expect to have that done before the end of the year. Henrik > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > PS.: > Trivia question: What is > UUOUUUUUUOOUUNUOUUUSUUUUUNUUUUUUUUIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUOUUU > and why is there only one S in that line? >=20 >> On 2020-11-20, at 16:18, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >>=20 >> I'm getting these warnings from idnits: >> -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of=20 >> draft-bonaventure-iccrg-schedulers is -00, but you're referring t= o -01. >>=20 >> -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of=20 >> draft-ietf-quic-datagram is -00, but you're referring to -01. >>=20 >> Oddly, the version numbers are coming from I-D.whatever references wit= h no version numbers, so whatever is adding version numbers added these, = but the -01 versions of these drafts do exist in the datatracker.=20 >> Best, >> Spencer >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --2csdaFLFU8CaonscJDQA8RV7OIMBWqNw9-- --WjcWm42Ml1bahI34Xgwg8L8EwNWW9GMCl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl+7x7MACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxq54Q//Q95Uh7+ZS0F9An/W1YkAZHANVGqppamj5D5jT++Gxgcn3kblZV+i34c1 zkcwKr3FcoN4JQLZgyr4MZxbwe2NHZA2eadh9TczG2F07HFV4JJ0unv4Ny9gGV6x MF+zeITAXrV0cbNdwEGRoJadHcFKeGuFi03c2/iyVorwBTp8pVno0tNtyRfe/5L8 5W/0fmcXIK21J1AXdsNKzjczPypzNrGXn7X+IAy+GgJUNZNLVh+1+je8gqlZS0dX 1Uw5o33SvCF9U2O3YCf1FwXZd78uGOKt81X1AWKcmTnV0EG9D9sdtzs41Le5yAQc w1x9FslLbmI3+z7gB1eOrYi5Re/RSUNSvUlGx9MqbToMBmPuCAlCIa+rjtepq4cP bH98hn6wf3G5fdcmGx5jn8IZBfmMKXmdIoCfeAhpvPDIgG0g+A2071/WKaIsNrqR L9j176xhSHUdrbxAIoUC6i5C/bmQX+Ij7E7VpDZWYVwN9xdZTjVoz/psVx4INgVc 6/uvyRgtpORrTVQt/v4XG+0QN3PEjJvOJ08ZT54AH9KHrAGw3x7CPJZ5RlTtE/vM ip2Yxvzz/pOnzXXy2OKa79eInwVoKIwOfVqZ9l3j/C+wDwkNxzpOosZIGDczs39h kcOqJslsO7nEBsKSX/klmC5xjwl23s5QHHX+CfiCP+gF7l/gSb0= =4KLu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WjcWm42Ml1bahI34Xgwg8L8EwNWW9GMCl--